Ep 17-A Nut Job and a Dodgy Vitamin: Pseudoscience Debunked

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Amanda Jenna.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello.
Well hello, I love that we comein so soft when actually,
before we hit record, we'realways laughing our butts off
and we're like, oh hello, howare you?

Speaker 1 (00:14):
And we're like let's be demure.
Yeah, let's style it back andbe people we aren't.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Just so cool, calm and collected people.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
We aren't just so cool, calm and collected right.
Um, speaking of which, I meanlast week.
Um, I don't know what happenedmy microphone decided she's
gonna be hot.
She ready, she's gonna be hot,she's gonna pick it all up and
um, usually my track is softerthan your track.
I'm boisterous no shade.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm going to say I got a great microphone.
Thank you, Amazon.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
But she was hot last week.
And here's me thinking, oh,halfway through Amanda's
riveting story, as riveting asit was, my stomach was like
grumbling and I was like, oh,you know what, I have a peanut
butter Reese's peanut butter cupis stuffed in my desk drawer.
You know what, I could be agood co-host and eat a Reese's.

(01:16):
So there's me thinking I'm allsneaky sneaks, I'm going to
sneaky sneaks my little Reese's,and I carefully take it out of
the drawer and I just tediouslyunpeeled thing from the from the
little, from the little, it'slittle harness what is that the
cupcake holder.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, I'm justlike every little rivet, it was

(01:40):
like oh my God, this is going inmy mouth.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Oh my, she's just salivating Like I'm like God,
this is going in my mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
She's just salivating .
It went into my mouth in onepiece because your girl's not
shy.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
I was like I got to get it in here.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
I got to just pop this whole thing in real quick
so I don't get caught.
Exactly Manda wasn't looking,popped it in there and I was
like, oh damn, there's anotherone, I need that other one.
So I was like, all right, I'mgoing to do two.
So we did two and the story wasgreat and I lasted and I didn't

(02:16):
perish of hunger.
But unfortunately I made mylife a lot harder because
apparently with my hot mic goingon, it heard every little thing
it had heard, every littlelittle munch, every little
little you know mouth noisenobody wants to hear every
little rustle, rustle, rustle asI thought I was.

(02:38):
Oh, so cleverly and sneakilyunwrapping these chocolates.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
You were and you did.
You did it because, you guys, Ihad no idea she's like oh, last
last time when I snuck thesereeses out of my desk.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?
I didn't know, I didn't know,it's like how did you not?

Speaker 1 (02:56):
smack me I.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
I would have reached out and smacked myself I would
have been like give me oneediting this.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
I wanted to smack myself.
It was so irritating.
So, listeners, I'm not going todo that this time around
because I just made myself morework.
But I'm really glad Amanda'sstill speaking to me, because
apparently she doesn't listenwhen she talks and that's my
favorite candy.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
You guys, I was in the zone, I didn't even know.
She's out here eating myfavorite candy in front of me.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
It's my favorite.
Oh, it's my favorite candy too.
It's my favorite.
Oh, it's my favorite candy too.
We have so much in common.
Why is that peanut butter sogood?
Oh, I know.
And the best is when it's aseasonal yes, like a like a like
an easter egg or a christmastree.
We see, is because then there'smore peanut butter chocolate
ratio.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
oh yeah, I'm not a fan of a ridge on anything Like
brownies.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
What kind of psychopath likes the edge, let's
not do that Middle no we needthe chewy bit in the middle.
First Show, fun show.
All right, I'm so glad we're onthe same.
I mean, that was important tome, that we're.
This is why this works, becausewe're on the same page.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
We.
This works because we're on thesame page.
We're on the same page, oh mygoodness.
So anyway, it's monday, asy'all know, because we record on
mondays.
Hello monday, did you have agood day?
Did you have a good weekend?

Speaker 1 (04:16):
I mean, are you asking me personally or?

Speaker 2 (04:19):
well, I guess.
I mean, I don't know how else Iwould ask you so we always talk
about the.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
It would I would be remiss if I did not bring up the
weather, don't do it.
As a minister.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Don't tell everyone how windy it was I know, oh my
goodness.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
So I went to a graduation ceremony of my
daughter's boyfriend and I waslike, yay, it's a graduation
ceremony and I put on some niceclothes.
You know, my little flats, mylittle little dress this little

(04:51):
that um didn't realize it wasgoing to be outside, but also.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
oh, the ceremony was outside.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, I mean we're talking two and a half hours
outside.
Um, it was long winded ceremonyoutside, beautiful ceremony, but
it was outside and uh, the windchill.
I mean it was outside and uh,the wind chill.
I mean it was in the upper 30s,lower 40s, let's just put it
that way.
And having been when it's beenthe 80s, right, it's been up our
80s.
So I lost the circulation in myfingers and my toes and it was

(05:18):
so bad that I didn't even go forthe cupcake bar.
At the end I was like tellingmy, my daughter, I mean love him
and all that.
But, girl, you know, we got towarm up.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
We got to warm up.
So I can't feel my toes.
Yeah, how was your weekend?
I was outside doing yard workall weekend, so can confirm it
was super windy, super cold.
One thing we're working on isleveling our yard, and so in
order to do that, one has toscalp their yard first with the

(05:49):
lawnmower, and I was out therey'all with gloves and, uh, like
a winter, like a headband thatyou wear I'm showing jenna, but
I hope that you call yeah, yeah,earmuffs, but not like the like
your earmuffs.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, yeah, you're showing me basically antlers.
Okay, okay, no, I was notsticking out, but no, okay, now
I see the muff, the muff fingers.
Yeah, well, you did this atfirst.
Okay, yeah, it is an auditorymedium, so we'll like yeah,
y'all you guys know it's like a.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I'm a headband.
It's not the earmuffs with theit goes around, but like a felt,
like a thick felt headband.
It actually was a smart wool,oh wool.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Oh good lord.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Sorry, I'm so sorry.
It's always the worst Hashtagsmart wool.
Please, please, sponsor us.
We love you so much.
Ah, shields, take all my money.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Oh my gosh, don't say it.
They're not paying us.
So, Shields, we'll see it.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
We'll see it when they pay us Anyway, yeah, okay,
I'm going to skip thelandscaping business because I'm
really not a landscaper.
I'm just out here trying mybest.
But I will say that we didplant a couple trees on our
property and those poor littlebabies from all the wind are
getting a little bit oftransplant shock.

(07:05):
So I hope they will be okay.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, I had my window open a minute ago, but I have
these storms coming through thatare making a lot of noise, so I
don't know.
May is really a bipolar month.
I just weather needs.
She just needs to settle down.
Come on it, let's go, she doesshe does.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
You know what else needs to settle down um the
aching in my body from all ofthe um yard work that?

Speaker 1 (07:30):
we did.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Oh my gosh you should see adam's hand.
He has a blister in the middleof his palm from all the
shoveling oh no, poor babe.
And it um bursted open, ofcourse.
And then he, he smoked a bunchof meat this weekend too, and
then we, like, portioned it allout and freeze it, so it's just
ready to grab.
And he was cleaning thecountertops after portioning all

(07:52):
the meat and got some cleanerin his exposed blister.
Ow Ooh, no bueno.
So anyway, yeah, we're bothvery sore, but you know what's
not sore?

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Hmm, what.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
My feet, Um.
So anyway, yeah, we're bothvery sore, but you know what's?

Speaker 1 (08:06):
not sore.
Hmm, what my my feet?
Ooh, my feet aren't sore.
You want to know?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
why you want to know who I have to thank for this.
Who, who?
Stan Shoes, stan Shoes.
Aw yeah, dogs ain't barkinganymore.
I got to thank uh Mr, my feetall day, saturday and Sunday.

(08:30):
So yes, founded by Rob Greggafter painful 16-hour shifts.
He was a postal worker and Ican confirm they deliver
cloud-like comfort.
They have custom ortholiteinsoles and seven millimeters of
arch support.
And, unlike athletic shoes thatadd joint pressure, stan shoes
disperse energy to ease strainon the knees, back and feet.

(08:52):
They are slip resistant, fluidresistant, machine washable and
packed with antimicrobialmoisture wicking tech to keep
your feet cool and clean.
Lab tested as the number oneshoe for comfort and pressure
relief.
Stan plus shoes Stan plus shoes, stand plus shoes.
Stand shoes has earned featuresin forbes and fast company for
long shifts, fast recovery oryard work.

(09:13):
This foot care is redefined.
Visit wwwstandshoescom for 15off any product with our code.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Stay suspicious well, that's amazing, thank, amazing.
Thank you for sharing that.
I agree, stan, shoes are forcedto be reckoned with.
Definitely need those tootsiesto feel good.
I don't really have a goodsegue into today's episode.
I will say that I have so manysources that I'm just going to

(09:44):
let y'all just look online.
There's too many to talk aboutand similarly, the trigger
warning, I don't know.
I think I need to betransparent here.
Some people are going to notlike this episode, maybe.
Yeah, amanda and I and correctme if I'm wrong, amanda but

(10:05):
we're united in our decision notto engage in political
discussions or push our ownpersonal ideologies out there.
I feel like I can say thatabout us.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yeah, that's not what this podcast is about.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
If you guys knew me personally, I don't politic, I
don't like that, and sodefinitely we don't want to be
pushing any personal, whateverIdeas, thoughts, beliefs,
anything.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Right.
But we both believe in science.
Right For shizzle, yeah.
And that healthcare should helpand not harm patients.
Absolutely, treatment should beevidence based.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
I love me some evidence based practice Period.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
And that's not 24-7.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah that's not political.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
Correct.
That should not be polarizing.
But somehow, like during theCOVID-19 pandemic, facts based
on evidence and scientificconsensus have been turned into
political fodder, and that feelstruer now than ever before.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
So I don't know where we're going with this, but I am
buckled, Y'all.
I am hearing this firsthandwith you.
So here we go.
You're coming into this blind.
I feel like we have we reallyset the stage here.
I don't know what's coming.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
I know I'm like warning everyone.
You may be mad at me, but we'regonna talk science people.
So this week I wanted to coversomething a little more
lighthearted.
Then my recent deep dives intodisturbing truths.
You know, a fluffy piece abouta nut job who promoted some
dodgy vitamins, and that's whatI said.

(11:49):
That's what I said I'll dohonestly.
I googled like dodgy vitamins,like I just I was looking for
some a fluff piece, but then, ohboy, I found this guy.
So I can't catch a break.
So the trigger warning is thisis the opposite of fluffy, this
is heavy.
So buckle up while I enlightenyou.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
So is this like naturopath type of guy we're
talking?

Speaker 1 (12:16):
about Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
So I'm going to just say, Peggy Huey, if you're
listening, my acupuncturist atWellspring Clinic in Rochester,
Minnesota, If you're listeningto this episode, when you get to
it I would like to hear youropinions.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yes, absolutely, because I am not again.
I am not against alternativemedicine, naturopathic, holistic
care, absolutely not.
I am for evidence.
If evidence shows that, likeyou said, you went for
acupuncture and it helped you, Imean to me that's like

(12:50):
wonderful.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
When Peggy cupped my back and I, magically, was not
congested anymore.
Hello, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
And I'm sure I didn't even look into it, but I'm sure
there's plenty of evidence outthere that you know this sort of
technique can help in certainsituations X amount.
But anyway, today we're goingto talk about a self-proclaimed
health and nutrition guru whosemission for over four decades
has been to cure the world ofeverything that ails it using

(13:18):
his natural methods andproprietary supplement cocktails
.
He's published over 70 booksand created 100 full feature
documentary films on naturalhealth, self-empowerment and the
environment.
He hosts the country's longestrunning nationally syndicated

(13:38):
health radio talk show.
I'm not, I'm not kidding, youCan't believe.
I haven't heard of this guyuntil now.
He may not be the most reliableof sources, but he's
undoubtedly among the mostprolific and loquacious.
He has a small but dedicatedcult-like following of fans who

(13:58):
view him as a prophet.
But Gary Null isn't a prophet.
He's not even a medical doctor.
He has a PhD in human nutritionand for decades he's railed
against evidence-based medicine,calling chemotherapy a scam,
vaccines dangerous and bigpharma a cartel of chemical lies

(14:21):
.
He promoted natural healing,plant-based diets and a cocktail
of supplements that he saidcould prevent, if not cure, just
about anything, including HIV.
Oh sure, ironically, dr Nollhad a taste of his own medicine
in 2010, and it just aboutkilled him.
But more on that deliciousirony later.

(14:45):
Let's learn more about the manbehind the propaganda, gary,
which, if you listen to hisradio show, I suspect you'll
agree with me that his name islikely short for garrulous,
which is basically a hot windheaded person who spews verbal
diarrhea salad.
Anyway, yeah, he was born onjanuary 6 1945 in parkersburg,

(15:13):
west virginia, to parents mayslutsky I didn't make that up,
folks.
That's her name and david no,he grew up in.
I'm so sorry.
He grew up in Parkersburg,alongside his siblings, robert,
mark and Joan.
While specific details abouthis early childhood experiences
are limited, it is known that hecompleted his high school

(15:35):
education in Parkersburg.
Before pursuing highereducation, he earned an
associate's degree in businessadministration from Mountain
State College, a two-yearfor-profit institution in his
hometown, and subsequently heobtained a bachelor's degree in
human nutrition from ThomasEdison State College, which is
now called Thomas Edison StateUniversity in New Jersey.

(15:58):
New-joy-sy, zo-y-sy.
I can't.
I can't help myself.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
His interest in nutrition reportedly began while
working as a part-time cook inNew York City, new York City.
By the 1970s, gary Null beganmaking a name for himself on New
York radio, especially atWBAI-FM, a progressive station

(16:25):
known for its unconventionalprogramming.
Listeners tuned in not just forhealth advice but for a new
worldview that challenged theauthority of doctors, drug
companies and even scienceitself.
In 1989, at age 44, null earneda PhD in human nutrition and

(16:45):
public health science from UnionInstitute and University, a
distance learning institution.
Keep in mind, folks, that thiswas in 1989.
Distance learning now is a lotdifferent than distance learning
when the Internet was barelyinvented.
I'm just saying.
His thesis a deep dive into theeffects of caffeine on human

(17:09):
health.
While some question theacademic rigor of his degree, it
did add a layer of credibilityto his growing public persona.
But it should be noted that theUnion Institute and university
later face sanctions for failingto meet academic standards, 13
years after his graduation.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yeah, not the best school.
Really took a long time forthat to come around.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah Well, I think he just basically bought his
degree.
So throughout the 1990s, uh,gary Knowles platform exploded.
He authored dozens of books,many of them bestsellers.
Titles like the Gary KnowullAnti-Aging Program and Get
Healthy Now Bang Exclamationpoint Became staples in the

(17:52):
homes of health consciousreaders.
At the same time, he launchedGary Null and Associates, a
business empire offering dietarysupplements, detox programs and
wellness retreats.
He also ventured intofilmmaking.
His documentaries, such asDeadly Deception and Pesticides
on Parade, aired on PBS andfurther elevated his profile.

(18:14):
For many he was a revolutionaryvoice and for others a dangerous
demagogue.
But Gary Noll wasn't justoffering smoothies and vitamin
regimens.
He had a deeper mission to takedown the pillars of modern
medicine.
He accused the FDA, the CDC andmajor pharmaceutical companies
of collusion.

(18:34):
According to Null, they weremore interested in profits than
public health, and later onwe'll talk about how ironic this
is.
I mean, the hypocrisy here iscrazy.
Gary Null became amultimillionaire based on all of

(18:54):
these things that he's doingand promoting, and anyway he
never actually ventured intoevidence-based anything.
But anyway, he took issue withothers who did this not himself
For sure.
So he questioned the safety ofprescription drugs and he railed
against the overuse of surgeryand, most controversially, he

(19:17):
opposed vaccination programs.
His skepticism soon morphedinto full-blown vaccine
denialism and he aligned himselfwith fringe movements
questioning the validity of theHIV-AIDS epidemic.
These claims, widely debunkedand discredited by the global
medical community, cost livesand cost Null whatever support

(19:38):
he may have had from traditionalscience.
You'll notice that I have a bitof bias against this man right
off the bat, so let me sharewith you some of the detrimental
viewpoints that Gazzer has beenspewing over the years, which I
take umbrage.
The worst and the most damagingviewpoints are about treatment
of cancer, vaccines and HIV AIDS.

(19:59):
Okay, cancer, let's go tocancer.
According to his book titled noMore Cancer A Complete Guide to
Preventing, treating andOvercoming Cancer.
Okay, so Null claims that hecan cure cancer with nutrition
and supplements.
He backs his arguments withalarming statistics.

(20:20):
According to the latestestimates, 41 of americans will
be diagnosed with cancer intheir lifetimes and 21 percent
will die from the disease.
I looked up the the statisticsand this is true, but he harps
on the billions of dollars spenton cancer research, stating
that survival rates for mostcancers remain disappointingly

(20:41):
low.
But when you look at the datafrom 1991 to 2022, the US cancer
death rate decreased by 34%.
So we're making progress, folks, in cancer prevention,
diagnosis and treatment.
Null has long advocated forunconventional approaches to
cancer treatment.

(21:01):
He promotes a holistic regimenthat includes plant-based diets,
detoxification, high-dosevitamin supplementation and
various unproven therapies,often positioning these methods
as suppressed cures bymainstream medicine Big bad
medicine.
Null strongly believes that allcancer, all cancer, comes from
exposure to toxins in theenvironment and from our diets.

(21:23):
That's his belief.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Okay, hashtag what's her face?
Starvation heights Right, Imean these two, linda Hazard.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Oh God, yeah, Match made in heaven.
He emphasizes a vegan orvegetarian diet rich in organic
fruits and vegetables,suggesting that such diets can
detoxify the body and bolsterthe immune system, along with
high doses of vitamins.
But they have to be gassersvitamins, minerals and herbal
extracts asserting that thesecan correct nutritional

(21:54):
deficiencies and combat cancercells.
And then also, like yourstarvation station lady, he
recommends methods like coffeeenemas, didn't she Wasn't she
into like juice fasting she?
Methods like coffee enemas,didn't she wasn't she into like
juice fasting?

Speaker 2 (22:07):
coffee, hour-long enemas, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Vegetable broth, yeah why would I want my coffee up
there?
Can't even.
Okay, uh, juice.
Fasting to cleanse the, tocleanse people of purported
toxins, okay.
And then he's also promotedtherapies such as Gerson therapy
, which involves strict dietaryregimens in enemas, and

(22:30):
hydrazine sulfate, which is achemical compound once studied
for cancer treatment but lackssubstantial scientific support.
Gerson therapy is a regimeninvolving strict diet, coffee,
enemas and supplements.
This therapy has beenassociated with serious health
complications, includinginfections and electrolyte
imbalances, and has been linkedto patient death.

(22:53):
Hydrazine sulfate is a chemicalcompound once studied for
cancer, but again, it doesn'thave any scientific background.
There's no support that it'sactually effective.
Nevertheless, null promoted thesubstance in his writings,
despite its classification asineffective and potentially

(23:14):
dangerous by the National CancerInstitute.
I mean, but I can see whypeople would buy into a theory
that if you cleanse your body oftoxins, and you eat well and
you improve your diet for health.
Here's what the broader medicalcommunity have been concerned
about with Knoll's methods thelack of scientific evidence, as

(23:34):
we talked about, many treatmentsthat he advocates lack rigorous
clinical trials to substantiatetheir efficacy and safety.
Some recommended practices,like high-dose vitamin intake
and specific detox procedures,can pose health risks or
interfere with conventionaltreatments and misinformation.
Critics argue that promotingunproven therapies may lead

(23:57):
patients to forgo evidence-basedtreatments, potentially
worsening their outcomes.
And while no specificfatalities have been directly
attributed to Null's advice, thebroader concern lies in the
potential for harm when patientschoose alternative therapies
over conventional treatment.
For instance, jessica Ainscough, an Australian wellness blogger

(24:18):
, opted for Gerson therapy overmedical treatment for her rare
cancer, and she died at age 29.
And there's more to that storyHer mother followed in her
footsteps and also died ofcancer for going treatment and
doing the nutrition and wellnessroute.
So I guess the advice at theend of this is anyone as a

(24:40):
patient, just consult aqualified healthcare
professional when you're lookingat all your treatment options.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
And look at all the treatment options.
Yeah, look at all of them, notjust hear about one and like, oh
, that sounds fine.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, and I'm not here to say, you know, when
you're looking at the sideeffects of chemotherapy versus
quality of life.
That's not what this is about.
It's about, you know, she was29.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
She had her whole life ahead of her, like and like
maybe chemotherapy wouldn'thave worked anyway and that
would have ended up being thesame result.
But like, did she know aboutboth options?
Or did she just think yeah, youknow, vitamins sound obviously
easier?

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Did she believe in, yeah, in the promises that the
unclaimed prompt?
That's.
The problem is that you're outthere saying you can cure your
cancer.
It's not like, well, you candie with dignity and comfort
without dealing with chemo.
It was no, you can cure yourcancer.
Take my supplement.
I mean honestly, it'sdisgusting.

(25:45):
It's disgusting to me, but it'sanyway All right.
We'll come back to supplementslater.
But another thing that I takeumbrage with Gazza about is his
take on vaccines.
So he's been vocally criticalof vaccines for decades and his
skepticism stems from concernsabout the safety and how.

(26:07):
He distrusts pharmaceuticalcompanies and regulatory
agencies and that he purportsthat natural health approaches
will be better than vaccination.
So he argues that vaccines havenot undergone rigorous testing
to ensure safety.
He contends that the cumulativeeffects of multiple vaccines
administered according to theCDC schedule have not been

(26:30):
adequately studied, particularlyregarding long-term health
outcomes.
He also highlights reports ofadverse reactions, suggesting
that these are underreported andnot thoroughly investigated.
A central theme in his critiqueis the alleged connection
between vaccines and autism.
He references studies andanecdotal reports that claim to

(26:51):
show a correlation betweenvaccination and the development
of autism spectrum disorders.
Null emphasizes the presence ofsubstances like thimerosal,
which is a mercury-containingpreservative and aluminum
adjuvants in vaccines, which hebelieves may contribute to
neurological issues.
So let's look at this.

(27:12):
The claim that vaccines causeautism have been thoroughly
debunked by extensive scientificresearch over two decades.
So where did this all start?
That vaccines cause autism?
And, listeners, I swear I'mgoing to do an episode on this
because there's a lot more tothis.
But the claim originated in1998 with a now retracted study

(27:36):
by Andrew Wakefield.
Andrew Wakefield is an absolutewaste of space who published in
the Lancet in 1998, and hedeliberately, with motive, with
personal motive, for personalgreed and gain, he falsely
linked the MMR vaccine which,listeners, is measles, mumps and

(28:00):
rubella to autism in 12children.
This study was discredited forso many violations ethical
violations, methodological flaws, undisclosed conflicts of
interest, and I promise you wewill take 60 minutes to talk
about this whole thing, becauseit is fascinating the lengths

(28:22):
that some human beings will gofor personal profit and acclaim
will go for personal profit andacclaim.
So, anyway, in 2010, he wasstripped of his medical license
by the UK's General MedicalCouncil.
In 2004, the Institute ofMedicine reviewed all available
data and found no credibleevidence that vaccines cause

(28:44):
autism.
In 2014, the Vaccine Journalperformed a meta-analysis
examining data from over.
Are you ready for this?
Remember Wakefield's study was12 children.
Okay, the vaccine study was 1.25million children.
Okay, Do you think one study ismaybe a little bit more robust

(29:06):
than the other, even if ithadn't been created for profit
in the pocket?
Okay so, 1.25 million children.
There was no associationbetween vaccines, including MMR,
and those containing thimerosaland autism.
And then there was a Danishcohort study which was published

(29:27):
in 2019 in the Annals ofInternal Medicine and included
over 650,000 children andconcluded there was no increased
risk of autism after MMRvaccination, even among high
risk groups.
Ok, so what about thimerosal?
Thimerosal is a mercury basedpreservative, but it was removed

(29:47):
from most childhood vaccinesonce we figured out that it
wasn't a good thing in the US by2001.
Autism rates continued to riseeven after removal of thimerosal
, which strongly suggests thatthere's no causal link.
Numerous studies have shown noconnection between thimerosal
and autism.

(30:07):
The CDC, the World HealthOrganization, the National
Institutes of Health, theAmerican Academy of Pediatrics
and every central healthauthority in the world agree
that vaccines do not causeautism.
Instead, vaccine rates havedeclined, the incidence of
preventable diseases have risen,and time and money and efforts

(30:32):
have been diverted away from theefforts to understand the real
causes of autism and how to helpchildren and families live with
it.
So again, more on that for anepisode that I'm most certainly
doing about the whole Wakefieldautism vaccine issue.
But Null expresses deepskepticism towards

(30:52):
pharmaceutical companies,accusing them of prioritizing
profits over public health.
He also criticizes regulatoryagencies like the CDC and the
FDA, alleging they haveconflicts of interest due to
financial ties with the vaccinemanufacturers.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Null, have you looked at yourself, listen, look in
the mirror.
What are you doing?
I can't even so.
He points to the.
I'm so angry.
Null points to the 1986National Childhood Vaccine
Injury Act, which establishedthe Vaccine Injury Compensation
Program as evidence of thegovernment's acknowledgement of

(31:28):
vaccine risks and its efforts toshield manufacturers from
liability.
Null suggests that a strongimmune system supported by
natural means, especially GaryNull's means, is more effective
and safer than vaccination.
Hello, there's been a lot ofresearch about the safety and
efficacy of vaccines inpreventing infectious disease.

(31:50):
You know this isn't new.
Major health organizations,including the CDC, who and FDA,
support vaccination as acritical component of public
health, and I can't believewe're having to talk about this
and you know what I was talkingabout this as if it was a
historical story.

(32:12):
You know something happened inthe past.
Of course we all know this now,right?
Oh no, a couple weeks ago, anapparent policy change appeared
in a statement to the WashingtonPost, in which a Health and
Human Services spokesperson toldthe paper that all new vaccines
will undergo safety testing inplacebo-controlled trials prior

(32:32):
to licensure, which is a radicaldeparture from past practices.
I'm sorry, this is totallyconfusing, especially experts
who said vaccines aimed at newpathogens have always been
tested this way.
Quote that's been true of everynew vaccine ever, said Paul
Offit, md of Children's HospitalPhiladelphia.

(32:54):
For those of us in the know, wecommonly call CHOP, chop, chop,
and they told us to MedPagetoday.
I can't think of a singlevaccine in the United States
that has truly a new vaccine.
They're not an improvement ofan existing vaccine, in which
case if it's brand new, you haveto test it against a placebo,

(33:15):
but if it's an improvement on anexisting vaccine, you have to
test it against the existingvaccine.
Some examples of newer vaccinesevaluated in placebo-controlled
trials include the respiratorysyncytial virus vaccines abrizvo
, orexi and mresvia, shinglesvaccine shingrix, the

(33:37):
pneumococcal vaccine prevnar13,and the human papillomavirus
vaccine, gardasil.
Notably.
The world watched as novelCOVID-19 vaccines were evaluated
against placebos, and yetHealth and Human Services
Secretary Robert F Kennedy Jrdoubled down on his allegations
during a Senate hearing lastweek, claiming that the only

(34:00):
vaccine that's been tested in afull-blown placebo trial against
an inert placebo was the COVIDvaccine.
The other 76 shots thatchildren in this country receive
between birth and 18 years old,none of them has ever been
safely tested in pre-licensingstudies against a placebo, which
means we don't understand therisk profile for these products,

(34:20):
and that's something I intendto remedy.
Okay, let's unpack this.
Experts say it's generallyunethical to do
placebo-controlled studies whenimproving on vaccines that
already exist, because thatwould deny control patients
protection against preventableillness.
There are certain exceptionsthat can be made, however.

(34:43):
So Steve Joffe, md MPH, abioethicist and pediatric
oncologist at the University ofPennsylvania, said there are
generally two starting pointsfor considering
placebo-controlled vaccinetrials.
If there's no vaccine for thedisease, it's good to develop it
against placebo, he said.
If there's a proven vaccine,you have to take into account
other factors like how severe isthe disease?

(35:05):
What's the risk of getting thedisease If it's very serious,
and especially if there'salready something on the market?
You wouldn't want to withholdthat from people, jaffe said.
However, he said he couldimagine a placebo-controlled
trial in which researchers aimto examine an immune response
after a short time period, likesix, eight or 12 weeks, and then

(35:25):
all participants receive thevaccine.
So then comparisons can be madebetween an immediate versus a
delayed group.
But outside of a pandemic andvery serious illness, the risks
of delaying a vaccine to look atimmune responses seem fine, he
said.
On the other hand, usinginfection as the endpoint
wouldn't work in the short orlong term.
He said With measles forinstance, we know we can prevent

(35:47):
measles with the vaccine.
He said, if we give kidsplacebo and give them the
opportunity to go on and getmeasles, that just seems
incredibly wrong.
So a placebo-controlled trialof measles, mumps and rubella
just isn't necessary, said Jaffe.
I don't see any reason why youwould have to test the

(36:08):
combination against placebo whenyou know the individual
components are highly effective.
Currently there are two MMRvaccines on the market MMR2 from
Merck and Prioryx fromGlaxoSmithKline.
Both companies also make a fourantigen version, make a

(36:42):
four-antigen version thatincludes varicella as well.
Musel's, mumps and rubellavaccines have been individually
evaluated in randomized controltrials in the 50s and 60s
according to the gold standardtextbook in vaccine science
called Plotkin's, co-authored byStanley Plotkin MD, paul Offit
MD, walter Orenstein MD andCatherine Edwards MD.
The first version of the measlesvaccine, the Edmonston B

(37:03):
vaccine, developed by JohnEnders, phd, and colleagues, was
licensed in the US in 1963after being evaluated ina
seven-part series published in1960 in the New England Journal
of Medicine.
This series included studieswhere vaccinated children were
compared with unvaccinated ones.
This measles vaccine had a highrate of fever and rash and was

(37:25):
often paired with a dose ofintravenous immunoglobulin to
mitigate those effects.
In 1968, it was replaced with astrain that attenuated the side
effects and was developed byfamous vaccinologist Maurice
Hilleman, phd, and it's the onestill used in the MMR vaccine

(37:46):
today.
Used in the MMR vaccine today.
Side note Maurice Ralph Hilleman, 1919 to 2005.
He was one of the greatestmicrobiologists, vaccinologists
of all time.
He played a key role indeveloping vaccines for Asian
flu in 1957 and Hong Kong flu in1968.
Over six decades, most of whichwere spent at Merck and Company

(38:08):
, his leadership and innovationsblazed new trails in virology,
epidemiology, immunology, cancerresearch and vaccine
development that were unmatched.
His work resulted in currentvaccines used for the prevention
of measles, mumps, hepatitis Aand B, chickenpox, meningitis
and pneumonia, which has savedmillions of lives across the

(38:30):
globe.
For the mumps vaccine, tworandomized placebo-controlled
trials in the late 1960s showedthat it worked and it's the same
vaccine that's in use today.
Known as the Gerald Lynn strain, it was named for Hillman's
daughter, from whom he collecteda sample when she had the
disease to isolate the virus.

(38:50):
It was originally licensed inthe US in 1967.
Three rubella vaccines werelicensed in the US by 1970,
including the Sendahill vaccinethat was evaluated in a
placebo-controlled trial.
Ultimately, however, thatvaccine was later replaced with
the RA27 slash 3 vaccine, whichis included in the MMR vaccine

(39:15):
today.
Extensive data on that lattervaccine, which was developed by
Plotkin and colleagues, wasreported in 1969 in the Journal
of American Medical AssociationPediatrics.
The combination MMR vaccine wasinitially approved in 1971,
with an updated version in 1978that included Plotkin's improved

(39:36):
rubella strain.
The biggest measure of successfor the MMR vaccines is that the
incidence of all three diseasesdecreased sharply after the
vaccines were introduced.
As for safety, expertsinterviewed for the story said
they were extremely confident inthe system set up to monitor
vaccine safety.

(39:57):
These are chiefly the FDA'sVaccine Adverse Event Reporting
System, vaers, v-a-e-r-s, andthe CDC's Vaccine Safety Data,
vsd.
Vaers allows anyone to reportan issue, so it's best used for
generating hypotheses, saidWalter Orenstein MD, former
director of the NationalImmunization Program, now the

(40:19):
National Center for Immunizationand Respiratory Diseases at the
CDC.
On the other hand, vsd enrolls11 sites that provide electronic
health record data enablingcomparisons of the incidence of
a given clinical syndrome invaccinees versus non-vaccinees.
Orenstein told MedPage Today Ifit's statistically significantly

(40:42):
higher in vaccinees it couldimply causation.
He gave the example of theoriginal rotavirus vaccine,
rotashield, for which problemswere first detected by VAERS.
Researchers subsequentlyconducted studies that showed a
higher incidence of bowelobstruction in vaccinated
children compared withnon-vaccinated kids.
So the intestinal obstructionwas rare, occurring in about one

(41:06):
of 10,000 vaccinated kids butit was still deemed too great a
risk.
I mean, one in 10,000 kids isgoing to have constipation.
So not only was that vaccineremoved from the market, but it
led to a requirement for largerstudies to assess bowel
obstruction risks, eventuallyresulting in a safer rotavirus

(41:28):
vaccine that's now on the market, which is called Rotatec.
In addition, when the oral poliovaccine was found to cause 8 to
10 cases of paralysis per yearin the US, recommendations were
changed to revert to the use ofthe pricier inactivated polio
vaccine.
This happened at a cost ofabout $300,000 per case of

(41:49):
vaccine-associated paralyticpolio prevented.
But we put a premium on safety,said Orenstein.
He also cited the AIDS vaccine,more specifically, the lack of
an AIDS vaccine, as evidencethat the current system for
evaluating vaccine safety andeffectiveness works.
The HIV virus was detected morethan 40 years ago and the

(42:12):
thinking was that we would havea vaccine within a couple of
years, said Orenstein.
Yet none of them have beenfound to be safe and effective
enough to get approval.
So we still don't have an AIDSvaccine today.
So the existence of theNational Vaccine Injury
Compensation Programacknowledges that there can be
real side effects of vaccines.

(42:32):
Orenstein added.
The program was developed aftera major increase in lawsuits
against manufacturers,oftentimes frivolous, which led
to vaccine shortages in the1980s.
When someone's vaccinated,they're not only helping
themselves but they're helpingtheir community, said Orenstein.
Society owes an obligation tosomeone who's actually injured
by a vaccine.
So, given all of thesesafeguards, jaffe says he's very

(42:55):
confident in our systems fordeveloping and testing vaccines.
All right, we're on to HIV AIDS.
Today, over 39 million peoplearound the world are living with
HIV.
Today, over 39 million peoplearound the world are living with
HIV and for many it's amanageable condition thanks to
decades of research,antiretroviral treatment and
public health campaigns.

(43:16):
Gary Null has been one of themost prominent HIV AIDS
denialists in America.
Here's a quote from his radioshow Quote I've said for decades
now HIV does not cause AIDS.
Period, that's a mythpropagated by the pharmaceutical
cartel.
End quote Null claims that HIVis just a harmless passenger

(43:39):
virus, not the cause of AIDS,and antiretroviral drugs are
just poison.
But this isn't fringe science,it's disinformation and it's
cost lives.
So to understand how we gotthere, let's rewind.
It's 1981.
Doctors in New York and LosAngeles begin reporting
mysterious immune failures inyoung men, and soon it's clear

(44:02):
we're looking at a new epidemic.
By 1984, scientists identify thecause HIV, the human
immunodeficiency virus but noteveryone accepted it.
Gary Null wasn't alone.
He echoed voices like PeterDuesberg, a once-respected
molecular biologist who turnedconspiracy theorist.
They claimed HIV was ascapegoat and that AIDS was

(44:25):
really caused by malnutrition,recreational drugs and stress.
These ideas were seductive.
They offered hope to thehopeless and they aligned with a
broader mistrust of government,pharma and medicine, especially
in marginalized communities.
But they were also wrong, deadwrong.
By the mid-1990s the evidencewas overwhelming HIV attacks the

(44:47):
body's immune system bydestroying CD4 T-cells, and
without treatment, the immunesystem collapses, leading to
opportunistic infections anddeath.

(45:08):
And with that, dear listeners,um, welcome to the chart note
segment where we learn abouthealthcare and medicine.
Um, I just wanted to cause.
It's been a hot minute sinceI've figured out, you know, or
since since we've talked aboutsome of these things, uh, at
least in my life, since we'vetalked about some of these

(45:30):
things, at least in my life, andso I wanted to offer a
refresher about what CD4 plus Tcells are and basically a little
bit more about the HIVinfection and how it relates to
AIDS.
So the CD4 T cells, or helpercells, are one type of
lymphocyte that helps coordinatethe immune response against
infection and disease.

(45:51):
They interact and activateother cells in the immune system
.
The immune system is incrediblycomplex and contains many
different components.
Cells that make up the immunesystem include lymphocytes,
macrophages, neutrophils anddendritic cells.
These cells target pathogens,disease-causing agents and other

(46:11):
foreign substances.
T-cells are lymphocytes andthere are three distinct classes
of them.
There's the cytotoxic CD8T-cells, the helper CD4 T-cells
and the regulatory CD4 T-cells.
The type of protein on thesurface of the T-cell
differentiates them, so we'regoing to talk about the role of

(46:33):
helper T-cells in health anddisease.
So, while they have no directinvolvement in neutralizing
foreign substances, cd4 T-cellshave various functions that help
produce a vigorous immuneresponse.
Though various subsets of themexist, they primarily activate
other immune cells.
So some CD4 T cells can becomeactivated and form memory T

(46:55):
cells.
These are important for thebody to maintain long-term
immunity against infection.
So, basically, remember who tofight.
Measuring a person's CD4 T cellmay help diagnose HIV.
This virus directly invades CD4T-cells and replicates within
them.
As the virus replicates, itslowly destroys the CD4 T-cells

(47:18):
and weakens the immune system'sability to fight off other
infections.
The several types of CD4T-cells have different functions
.
They are the helper cell whichwe just talked about, the Th1.
These coordinate the immuneresponses against pathogens
within the cell, for examplebacteria.

(47:39):
So Th1 produces cytokines,proteins that act on the immune
system or directly destroypathogens.
The T helper cell 2, or TH2,coordinates immune responses
against pathogens outside thebody cell, for example helminths
, which are parasitic worms orreally bad punk band helminths.

(48:03):
Th2 also produces cytokineswhich activate other lymphocytes
and regulate allergic reactions.
And then the T helper cell 17produces interleukin 17, which
is a signaling molecule thatactivates other immune cells.

(48:24):
And Th17 helps protect the bodyfrom extracellular bacteria and
fungi present outside the bodycells.
And then there are regulatoryT-cells that monitor and
suppress other immune responses,helping prevent autoimmune
issues and maintain homeostasis.
Memory CD4 T-cells arebeneficial to maintaining a

(48:46):
person's immunity.
They evolve from naive CD4T-cells, which are precursors to
memory cells, and they canrecognize and target germs the
body has encountered before.
However, the second time thebody encounters the germ, it
produces a faster and strongerresponse.
So a germ or antigen activatesa naive CD4 T cell to start the

(49:08):
transformation.
And the activation happens whena naive CD4 T cell interacts
with another immune cell knownas an antigen presenting cell.
The antigen presenting cellssit within the lymph nodes.
They're specialized cells withthe ability to recognize and
process germs.
So CD4 T cells can easilyrecognize antigens as atypical

(49:30):
and then become activated.
And once they activate it'slike stranger danger.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
I know I'm thinking like this is so cute.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
They're like let's get him guys.
The naive CD4 T cells divide,forming multiple clones, and
some of these clones becomememory cells and they produce
cytokines that activate otherimmune cells, whereas naive CD4
T cells cannot.
So typically memory.
Cd4 T cells remain dormant inthe body until they recognize a
previously encountered germ andthen they're activated.

(50:00):
Okay so CD4 T cells and HIV.
Remember, hiv targets CD4 Tcells, so when the virus binds
to one of these cells, it takescontrol of the machinery within
the cell and uses it toreplicate.
This process causes the deathof the CD4 T-cell and other

(50:21):
immune cells, leading to animpaired immune system and a
weakened defense againstinfection.
So measuring CD4 T-cellscirculating in the blood
provides valuable informationabout how well the immune system
functions, especially in peoplewith HIV.
So because HIV destroys CD4T-cells, healthcare
professionals can use CD4 celllevels to monitor HIV

(50:42):
progression and AIDS.
A typical CD4 cell count isbetween 500 and 1500 cells per
cubic millimeter.
When a person's CD4 count fallsbelow 200 cells per cubic
millimeter, they receive an AIDSdiagnosis.
So this is the connection.
This is absolutely.
Hiv can lead to AIDS and does soif a person does not have HIV.

(51:06):
A lower CD4T cell count mayoccur due to infection or
certain medications.
All right back to the case.
So enter antiretroviral therapy, or ART.
Antiretroviral therapy works byslowing the progression of HIV

(51:28):
and keeping CD4 levels stable.
Art targets different steps inthe HIV replication cycle,
inhibiting or stopping itsspread within the body.
Suddenly, aids was no longer adeath sentence and millions were
saved.
Dr Anthony Fauci was quoted assaying with the proper treatment
, people with HIV can live full,productive lives.

(51:48):
But Gary Noll called ART toxiclives.
But Gary Null called ART toxic.
He blamed AZT, which was anearly on drug with real side
effects, for making patientssicker and he sold his own
alternatives supplements,vitamins, detox regimens and
immune support protocols.
But spoiler there's no evidencethat any of his alternative

(52:09):
solutions work.
His beliefs weren't justcontroversial, they were
dangerous.
Take South Africa In the early2000s, then-president Thabo
Mbeki, influenced by HIVdenialists, delayed rollout of
life-saving drugs and the resultwas an estimated 300,000
preventable deaths.

(52:30):
And here in the United States,stories of patients refusing
treatment, sometimes afterlistening to figures like
Knowles, aren't hard to find.
This isn't theoretical.
Hiv denialism kills.
Gary Knowles' AIDS denial isjust one chapter in a larger
story.
He's cast doubt on vaccinesclaimed to have natural cancer
cures and promotes conspiracytheories about the medical

(52:52):
system.
He says he's empowering peoplewith information, but in reality
, he's selling distrust and hissupplements.
He's not just anti-science,he's building a brand and you
might think, like well, it's2025, who still believes this?
But misinformation never reallydies.
It evolves.
So today, hiv denial echoes inanti-vax rhetoric, covid

(53:13):
conspiracies and natural curemovements.
It all feeds from the samesource distrust in science and
the promise of a simpler truth.
Gary Null didn't create thatdistress, but he capitalized on
it and people died because of it.
So, listeners, if you orsomeone you love is living with
HIV, just know this the scienceis strong, the treatments are
real and the future is hopeful.

(53:34):
Don't let misinformation stealthat from you.
Now let's shift our focus onGary's miracle products,
specifically his nutritionalsupplements.
So in April 2010, somethingironic happened and, as I
alluded to in the beginning ofthe episode, gary Null was
nearly killed by his ownsupplement Shame.

(53:55):
The product was called GaryNull's Ultimate Power Meal and
was a dietary supplementmarketed as a comprehensive meal
replacement, designed toprovide essential nutrients,
support energy levels andpromote overall health.
It was promoted as a convenientway to obtain a wide array of
vitamins, minerals and othernutrients.

(54:15):
You know, what's convenient forme is to actually eat a meal,
like who wants to take a pillinstead of eating a meal.
I mean, my stomach would be sosad.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
I know right.
Actually my stomach would be sopissed because I'm very
sensitive stomach and if I takeany sort of vitamin on an empty
stomach your girl is sick.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
I know, and there's something about like, eating is
pleasurable and, uh, I need tochew, you know anyway.
Okay, it's convenient not to beable to eat.
That's gross.
Uh, he promoted it as ananti-aging supplement, promising
health and vigor to all whoconsumed it.
So the production of GaryKnoll's Ultimate Power Meal was
contracted to TriarchoIndustries, a New Jersey-based

(54:57):
supplement manufacturer.
Triarcho's role was pivotal inthe formulation and blending of
the product's ingredients, aswell as ensuring compliance with
manufacturing specificationsprovided by Knoll's company.
However, the process broke downin ways that had serious
consequences.
Triarco was responsible forsourcing and blending the raw
ingredients, including vitamins,minerals and plant-based

(55:20):
compounds, according tospecifications set by Gary
Null's team.
As the contract manufacturer,triarco was expected to verify
the dosages and safety of theingredients through standard
quality control protocols,including lab testing and
validation of nutrient levels.
They also handled the physicalpackaging of the products.
But in 2010, a critical erroroccurred, which failed to

(55:44):
properly dilute or measure thevitamin D additive during
production, so this meant thevitamin D content was over a
thousand times higher thanstated on the label.
It was supposed to be thepinnacle of his work a powdered
supplement full of vitamins,minerals and Gary Null's
personal guarantee.
He said it would energize youheal your gut, boost your immune

(56:04):
system.
And, of course, he used ithimself every day until he
started getting sick.
We're talking fatigue, nausea,intense body pain, headaches,
kidney problems.
And he wasn't alone.
At least six other customerswere hospitalized with similar
symptoms, and they all had onething in common the ultimate
power meal.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
You can't call that a meal, people.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
I know it's not a meal.
Come on, get yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Food is medicine people.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think I read something once where the
actual act of chewing releasesnot endorphins but releases a
chemical that maybe it's I wantto say gremlin, it's something
that starts with a G, that'slike a hormone that makes you
feel satiated.
It's not a gremlin, it doesn'trelease the gremlin.

(56:50):
But okay, that's going to beanother medical.
What do I call it?
Correction corner next week.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Anyway, the lab tests revealed that every serving of
Null's product contained morethan 2 million international
units of vitamin D.
2 million.
So what's the recommended dailyamount?
600.
Yeah, he accidentally ornegligently given his customers

(57:19):
and himself over 2000 times thisdaily dose of vitamin D.
So vitamin D toxicity leads tohigh calcium levels in the blood
, kidney stress, confusion,vomiting, bone pain.
Poor Gazer was hospitalized forweeks and he suffered internal
bleeding and damaged his kidneys.
And here's the irony the man whosaid modern medicine was

(57:41):
killing people was saved bymodern medicine.
Of course, he didn't take anyresponsibility.
He blamed the manufacturerentirely and and filed a 10
million dollar lawsuit, uh,claiming that they botched the
formulation and failed to notifyhim of the change.
But here's the catch null islisted as the sole formulator on

(58:03):
the label.
So he marketed himself as theexpert behind every ingredient.
And while he claimed ignorance,his customers sued him saying
he should have tested theproduct and warned them sooner.
During the legal proceedings heamended his complaint and
removed all personal injuryclaims.
The amended lawsuit focusedsolely on reputational harm to

(58:23):
his business.
The outcome of the lawsuit wasnot publicly available and there
was no information that I couldfind that it actually went to
trial and there's no documentsor details that I could find
that it actually went to trialand there's no documents or
details that I could find on anysettlement or judgment.
But in the court of publicopinion, gary Knoll exposed
something even more dangerousthan overdose vitamins he

(58:44):
exposed a system where no one ischecking.
In 2011, the family of HelenShulman, an 89-year-old woman
from New Jersey.
She filed a wrongful deathlawsuit against Gary and several
associated companies.
The suit alleged thatSchulman's death was caused by

(59:06):
consuming his ultimate powermeal.
According to the lawsuit, sheconsumed the supplement over a
three-month period, which led tokidney failure and heart damage
due to vitamin D toxicity.
The complaint stated that eachserving of the supplement
contained at least a millioninternational units of vitamin D
, vastly exceeding therecommended daily allowance of a

(59:26):
thousand.
So this excessive dosageallegedly resulted in
hypercalcemia and subsequentorgan failure, culminating in
her death in July 2011.
So the family lawsuithighlighted concerns again about
the safety and regulation ofdietary supplements,
particularly those marketed byprominent figures in the

(59:47):
alternative health industry.
The case underscored potentialrisks associated with
unregulated supplement dosagesand the importance of accurate
labeling and quality control inthe supplement industry.
So the king of remedies wasbrought down by the very
supplements he championed.
And yet even this didn't slowhim down.
In the 2010s, he launched moredocumentaries War on Health,

(01:00:10):
silent Epidemic, deadly Lies.
He continued hosting programson his progressive radio network
, pushing veganism, detoxcleanses and a distrust of
anything labeled FDA approved.
Despite the criticism, hemaintained a loyal audience To
them.
He was a prophet speakinguncomfortable truths.
To scientists, he was a peddlerof pseudoscience and to

(01:00:32):
skeptics, a symbol of the darkintersection between wellness,
culture and misinformation.
Today, he remains a prolificauthor and commentator.
His name is synonymous with thehealth movement that sees
medicine as a battleground andbig pharma as the enemy.
He's been called a wellnessguru, a fear monger and a scam
artist, and one thing is clearhe's never backed down, whether

(01:00:53):
he saved lives or endangeredthem, changed minds or
manipulated them.
The story of Gary Null is acautionary tale about charisma
without accountability and theprice we pay when truth becomes
subjective.
For Gary, the fear mongeringbusiness has been lucrative.
A quick Google search estimateshis net worth is around $8
million today.
Also on Google was a listingfrom 2021 for a $9.5 million

(01:01:18):
mansion in southwest Floridathat sits on 15.1 acres of land
on which he planted over 200varieties of trees.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
I bet they don't have transplant shock like mine.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Yeah, the landscape includes 60 foot high strands of
bamboo, a gazebo, jogging paths, tennis courts, swimming pools
and a large pond with hundredsof Japanese koi, water features
and meditation gardens.
The 13,000 square foot homealso has a guest house on the
estate.
It sounds like paradise, andwhen asked why he was selling
the place, null stated they hadno one to share it with anymore.

(01:01:55):
Huh, Sad, I guess money can'tbuy everything, right, gaz?
So what have we learned aboutnutritional supplements?
Well, under US law, dietarysupplements aren't regulated
like drugs.
The FDA does not test them forsafety before they hit the
market, and companies can sellpills, powders and cleanses
without proving they work or aresafe.

(01:02:17):
Gary Null wasn't the first toexploit that system, but he
might have been the first toalmost die from his very own
brand.
In the end he survived histoxic brew, but the case left a
lingering aftertaste.
When the line between healerand salesman disappears, who's
watching what we swallow?

(01:02:37):
And with that I wanted to givesome resources for listeners on
how to research supplements andI'm going to post these on our
show notes, but basically a listof websites to be able to look
up the National Institute ofHealth website about the facts
between the vitamins, mineralsand other supplements, as well

(01:02:59):
as research summaries and safetyinformation.
And then the National Centerfor Complementary and
Integrative Health that providesevidence-based information on
supplements and alternativehealth practices, as well as
ConsumerLabcom, which theyindependently test supplements
for quality, purity and labelaccuracy.
And then some information abouthow to read and understand

(01:03:25):
supplement labels, where toreport any adverse effects.
And just final note alwaysapproach supplements with a
critical eye.
Just because a product islabeled natural or doctor
formulated doesn't mean it'ssafe or effective.
Educate yourself and usetrustworthy sources.
That's the best way to protectyour health.

(01:03:51):
Once again, I'm on a soapbox.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
Thank you for bringing that to heart.
No, for real, though I didn'tknow, there was no regulations
on things like that.
That's very scary right and howyou said at the end um like,
just because a label says this,that's true for everything.
Guys like labels on food thingsin like the health aisle at the

(01:04:14):
grocery store I know this isnot vitamins, but you know what
I mean where it's like oh, blah,blah, blah, power bar will
bring you.
It's like you can't trust alabel.
So please go look at thesewebsites that she is going to
post in the show notes to knowwhat you are putting in your
body do you think it's time tocheer up with a little bit of a
medical mishap?

(01:04:36):
Do I ever?
Also, I wanted to make a littleside note because I was
watching our recording.
Obviously, I didn't talk a lot,but it's been thundering like
crazy here, and did you hear it?
Oh, but sometimes it made alittle blip on my thing, so
maybe if you guys hear it,that's thunder.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Okay, yeah, let's make things, uh that just
reminds me of our trip to vegas,where it was.
What is it thunder down under?
I mean, we didn't go see them,I was gonna say I didn't go to
that we did not everyone mom,dad.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
We did not no, we went to cirque du Soleil.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Yeah, we did.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Yeah, that was awesome that was awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
That was really good, and we did some zip lining.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Oh my God, that was so fun.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
We need to do that again.
Amanda, yeah, somebody needs tohave a birthday milestone.
Well, anyway, let's talkmedical mishaps.
Um, I did not write this onedown because I wanted to
surprise amanda, because thisone baby girl is about the two

(01:05:46):
of us, just the two of us us,okay.
So, um, I don't know, was this10 years ago?

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
I already know what you're talking about, because
what other mishap could?

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
deal with both of us.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
So yes, listeners, you've guessed it we used to
work in clinic together and, mygod, how lucky were our patients
.
I was kidding, we had fun.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
So when she was a baby audiologist, she was
working as an audiologyassistant and I was teaching
Amanda some stuff aboutvestibular balance evaluations.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
And that no assistant in the entire world had any
business knowing.
But I was like tell me more,Let me do the things, Let me do
hands on with you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
Well, that's why you're such an awesome
audiologist and that's why youweren't going to be an assistant
for long.
Exactly, so I um.
So one of the things we do iswe, we, we do something called
caloric irrigations where we um,it sounds really horrible, but
we, and it probably is.
But we irrigate patient's earswith hot and then cold water,

(01:06:59):
because the change intemperature changes the density
of the inner ear fluid, whichactivates the vestibular system
and makes you feel like you'removing.
So, so you picture this, so,and we're doing this to figure
out, you know, so you picturethis, and we're doing this to

(01:07:20):
figure out the strength of thatresponse, which is a normal
response, to feel like you'removing and the world's spinning
around you, and compare one earto the other to see if they're
equally strong or if one'sweaker than the other.
So we do this.
The patient's lying at a30-degree angle, we're in the
dark, we're in the dark, we'rein the dark.
They have a set of infraredgoggles on.
Yeah, we got to place yeah, andthey have a towel on their

(01:07:43):
shoulder in case we get splashywith it.
And then there's like this hosewith a little tube and we hold
like a barf thing.
Emesis, it's one of the kidneybeans, emesis.
Yeah, we hold like a barf thing, emesis.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
It's an emesis.
It's one of the kidney beansemesis.
Yeah, we hold that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Yeah, one of those kidney-shaped bowls under their
ear, and then we put this littletube in and we hit a trigger
and we irrigate their ear for 30seconds and then watch them
spin.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
And the whole time we're yelling eyes open, Keep
your eyes open.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Yeah, so that we can record our eye movements of them
spinning around.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
And they're like.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Not loving it maybe as much as.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Yeah, it's not fun.
So I'm teaching Amanda this I'mup on this higher stool and
I've got the basin under thepatient's ear of water and then
I have a bucket where I finishfill.
You know, once you finish theirrigation it fills up this
emesis basin.
And then I reach over and pourthat water that just came out of

(01:08:42):
the patient's ear into thisbucket next to me because we've
got to do another one of adifferent temperature right?
So sometimes, you know, in theprocess of doing this, you can
get some chunky water.
Let's just you know, let's justexplain.
We start out with the warmwater and it pulls a lot of crap

(01:09:04):
out of the patient's ear canal.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Yeah, yeah, it clears some things out, guys.
It's a chunky monkey situation.
We use a joke, it's a free earcleaning, okay yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
So I'm on a higher stool and I'm holding, I'm
holding I can't even talk aboutthis without laughing but I'm
holding the bowl, the emesisbasin and the trigger wand with
the little plastic tube.
And in between theseirrigations we've got to wait
for the water to changetemperatures.
So we just did a hot one, wejust did a hot water, and I have

(01:09:37):
to wait for the tank to changeto cool before I can then
irrigate cool water in thepatient's ear.
And one of my long-term habitsis to just kind of just take my
finger and flick the tube thatgoes into the patient ear, just
to kind of flick any remainingwater out of it, because I don't

(01:09:59):
want it to affect thetemperature change.
All right, so this is somethingI normally do.
So we are holding the bowl,we're irrigating for 30 seconds.
Patient's getting dizzy, we'retalking to them, I've got an
emesis basin full of chunky waxwater and a wand and I'm just

(01:10:19):
sitting there talking and Amandais like to the right of me on a
lower stool, eagerly justdevouring everything because she
wants to do it all herself,because she really wanted to be
an audiologist.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
So she Look at me now .
Hey, look at me now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
So we finish an irrigation and I turn and flick
the remaining water out of thetube that has just been in this
patient's ear and it'sparticularly chunky and she is
sitting on a stool looking up atme and, by the way, I know this
is chunky because I I saw thebin.

(01:11:01):
I know it's bad at the verymoment, dear listeners, that I
decide to flick the tube ofwater that had been in the
patient's ear.
She opens her mouth to ask me aquestion, but she opens it wide
and I do the flick and thewater goes and it enters her
mouth and she looks at me butshe doesn't know where the water

(01:11:28):
came from.
She's wondering did it comefrom the tube where the fresh
water comes, or did it come fromthe basin of chunky earwax?

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
water.
I don't even know what you weretrying to talk to me.
All I could think was basin ortube.
I was not even listening toanything coming out of her mouth
.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
She starts gasping like a fish out of water.
She starts yelling I'm laughingso hard I need to go to the
bathroom, like seriously,seriously needed to go use the
restroom.
I'm weeing myself people, infact I did a little and she
cause.
She's gasping at me, desperateto hear where did that water

(01:12:09):
come from, and so she's yellingat me basin or tube, basin or
tube.
Meanwhile the patient is there,like we have to be all
professional.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Yeah, so I wasn't.
Yeah, it was like aprofessional basin or tube,
basin or tube.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
Did I put her out of her misery?
No, I did not.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
I was more interested in getting to the bathroom
before things were going to gettoo dire and I was like
wondering if I was going to begagging on chunks of shit in my
mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
So I put everything down and raced off to the
bathroom and left her in thedark, Forever in the dark.
So the answer is dear.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
Amanda, that it was the tube.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
I know the answer by now, so that's our medical news
after the week.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
I uh obviously went on to become an audiologist
myself, you know, and I had todo uh vestibular testing at the
hospital I worked at and I alsowas a tube flicker.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
So you know what carried that with me oh god,
just a look of horror in yourface okay, well, can you blame
me?
This poor patient was clueless,like what's happening?
What's happening to me?
No, they were just so dizzy.
Anyway, it's all fun and gamesand then you become a

(01:13:24):
professional.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
We were super professional through this entire
change.
Wait, what does?

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
that say about me.
I already was an audiologistOne of my favorite moments in
clinic honestly Okay, and inspite of all that, you still
went on to be a stellar provider, so I didn't keep you from it.
That's the good news, but oneof the reasons why I was able to

(01:13:49):
sit in the dark and stay awakeafter lunch and test people for
hours on end, because y'all thisis three hours.
Yeah, it's a three-hour test inthe dark and there's always one
after lunch where you're likewell, strong Coffee Company is
what kept me going.
Strong Coffee Company deliverspremium instant blends for

(01:14:16):
people who want conveniencewithout sacrificing health.
Their signature black instantcoffee packs are 15 grams.
That's more than a yogurt,amanda.
15 grams of protein, notChobani.
Chobani doesn't have 15 gramsof protein in one yogurt.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Is it only nine?
I'm about to go grab a Chobaniout of the fridge right now, but
I swear to you it is definitelynot 15.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Is it nine?
Okay, well, we may have anothercorrection section.
We'll have to go check ouryogurts.
But 15 grams, that's a.
That's a for a coffee.
Okay, we're going to check ouryogurts.
We'll get back to you on that,jury's out.
But five grams of MCTs and 250milligrams of adaptogens like
ashwagandha, you're not going tofind it in your yogurt.

(01:15:01):
They give you sustained energy,focus and calm, without the
jitters, and if you like itcreamy, like you like your
yogurts.
Lattes are good.
They add collagen, hyaluronicacid and healthy fats to organic
Arabica coffee and, witheco-friendly practices and fast
delivery, you can feel goodabout ordering Strong Coffee.

(01:15:24):
It's going to fuel your daydeliciously and powerfully.
So elevate your coffee routinewith Strong Coffee Company.
Enjoy an exclusive discountwith our promo code
STAYSUSPICIOUS, that'sS-T-A-Y-S-U-S-P-I-C-I-O-U-S, for
20% off your order atstrongcoffeecompanycom.
Amanda, yeah, what can ourlisteners expect to hear next

(01:15:47):
week?

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Well, my friends, we are going to take a little
venture on over into the painmedicine area.
I got, I found a real doozyover there maybe a little, a
little douchebag.
I just like don't know how muchI want to give away.
It's bad, you guys oh no.

Speaker 1 (01:16:06):
Well, if you're talking to me about pain
medicine and it's a bad case I'massuming someone's going to be
in pain and that makes me sad.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
Well, it's not exactly what I expected, so make
sure you guys tune in, becauseit was one of those where I was
like wait a second, what?
And then when?
I was researching, I found anarticle about like I can't even
give too many figures- but I waslike how does this even?
Tie into this.
And then I know now, ooh, but.

(01:16:34):
But I was like how does thiseven tie into this?
And then I know now, but youguys don't know now, so come
back next Wednesday sounds likeyou went down a rabbit hole,
which I know, and you guys.
This is an hour and 17 minutes.
It's finally an episode.
That's long enough to get me towork.
Yes, that's how long I driveone way to work anyway, love my
job, so I'm gonna do it, butuntil then, don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or followingDoctoring the Truth wherever you

(01:16:55):
enjoy your podcast.
For sure that shock, intrigueand educate Trust, after all, is
a delicate thing.
You can test that.
I'm trying to go fast, like atthe end of a commercial, to like
get you all on your way.
But you can text us directly onour website at Doctoring the
Truth, at Buzzsproutcom.
Email us your medical mishapsat doctorinthetruthatgmail.
Take the listener poll onYouTube, if you have not already

(01:17:18):
.
I did at doctorinthetruth onYouTube and be sure to follow us
on Instagram atdoctorinthetruthpodcast Facebook
is just doctorinthetruth anddon't forget to download, rate
and review so we can be sure tobring you more content about my
freaky, deaky pain med guy nextweek.
Until then, stay safe and staysuspicious.

(01:17:41):
Bye, I'm sure I get my yogurt.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 17-A Nut Job and a Dodgy Vitamin: Pseudoscience Debunked