May 28, 2025 • 72 mins
A respected doctor becomes a deadly predator in this shocking true crime case that exposes the darkest side of the opioid epidemic.
When young Ellie Harris died of an overdose in 2002, her prescription bottles all led back to one man: Dr. Randeep Mann. Despite her history of addiction that her family explicitly shared with him, Mann prescribed dangerous combinations of opioids that ultimately claimed her life. But Ellie was just the beginning.
As more bodies piled up in the small town of Russellville, Arkansas, a disturbing pattern emerged. Dr. Mann wasn't just overprescribing - he was exploiting vulnerable patients like teenager Shelly Green, who reported trading sexual favors for pills in his office after hours. Despite mounting evidence, medical and legal systems repeatedly failed to stop him, with overdose deaths temporarily dropping when his license was suspended only to surge again when reinstated.
What does it take to stop a predator in a white coat when the very systems designed to protect patients repeatedly fail to act? Join us for this disturbing journey through medicine's darkest corridors.
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Stay safe, and stay suspicious...trust, after all, is a delicate thing!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Go Amanda, jenna.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
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You darling, I'm goodRecovering from my little cold.
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Well, happy Memorial Day and happy AMAs, and let's go
Tay-Tay.
We've got to get into itbecause your girl's got to
listen to the AMAs or watch the.
Amas and make sure that we'rewell represented.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Do we think she's going to be announcing new album
?
We'll see, we'll see.
I hope so.
Yeah, so, like she said, we'regoing to kind of get into it.
Happy Memorial Day.
Hope you guys had a long, nice,safe weekend.
We don't really have acorrection, other than last time
(00:51):
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said, for sure, there's no waythere's 15 grams of protein.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
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Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, okay, so they don't have 15, but they have 12
grams.
That's pretty good.
So, anyway, if y'all are intoyogurt, we get the fruit on the
bottom.
Chobani, it's pretty good,pretty good.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, but they don't sponsor us, so you know.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
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I used a boatload of resources,so they will all be listed in
the show notes.
Honestly, probably one of mybiggest resources that I use is
this.
Case was covered on a oxygenchannel show, um, and it had the
(02:52):
entire transcript of the show,which was like a huge win, right
?
So if you don't have cable,then you don't have access to
shows, uh, but the wholetranscript for the show was
online, so, hey, I got a like agood storyline from that.
So, thanks, oxygen, um, triggerwarning for this episode is
substance abuse and, uh,explosives.
(03:16):
Okay, all right, shall we getinto it?
Okey-dokey, here we go.
Ellie Liana Harris was born inJuly 1980 and raised in Pine
Bluff, arkansas.
Ellie grew up full of life.
She was energetic, with apassion for sports and a love
(03:39):
for the outdoors, and she had anartistic talent that stood out
even in her early years.
Her creativity and vibrantspirit lit up the world around
her, and she was deeply loved byher close-knit, hands-on family
.
From the outside, she seemeddestined for a bright,
fulfilling life, but during highschool, something shifted.
(03:59):
Her family began to notice asubtle but undeniable change.
Ellie started pulling away.
She became distant and quiet,and her circle of friends
changed.
The light in her began to dim.
It was more than a typicalteenage rebellion.
There was something deeperhappening and eventually Ellie
opened up to her family that shehad experimented with drugs.
(04:21):
She told them that she hadtried heroin and smoked crack.
Oh, oh, I mean like you havekids.
So like I mean, could you?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
imagine Like a weed gummy I'd flip out Like holy cow
heroin.
I mean.
All it takes is once, and weknow we've talked about
cannabis-induced psychosis.
I'm just Scary.
God having kids is so scary.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, her mother Teresa was devastated.
She said quote to hear thewords your daughter took heroin,
that she got a needle and shotup heroin and she got a pipe and
she smoked some crack.
You question everything you'veever done.
End quote.
How could this have happened ina home where love and support
was abundant?
(05:09):
Ellie tried to explain Mama,it's very hard to be the only
one in the room to stand up andsay no.
Her words were heartbreaking toa mother.
The pressure to fit in, theweight of standing alone against
temptation, it had all becometoo much for Ellie.
Despite being proactive andinvolved, her family felt
(05:29):
helpless.
They were at a loss for how tohelp.
They confronted Ellie multipletimes, always leading with love
and hope.
But addiction is a powerfulforce and one that doesn't
discriminate and one that cantake root even in the most
nurturing environments.
Ellie eventually went away,root even in the most nurturing
environments.
(05:50):
Ellie eventually went away tocollege in Russellville,
arkansas.
It wasn't long before shereached out again and this time
her voice was different.
Quote Mama, you got to come andget me.
I want to get some help.
End quote.
She was just 18 years old.
The call marked a turning pointEllie entered an inpatient
rehabilitation program and overthe next several weeks she made
some really great progress.
She was engaged, hopeful andcommitted to recovery and for
(06:12):
the first time in a long timeher family began to feel hope
rising.
Ellie was proud of her decisionto seek help and of her
strength to face addiction headon.
Bless her heart, the faceaddiction head on.
But two years later, in thewinter of 2000, ellie slipped on
the ice and injured her back.
The pain was intense andover-the-counter medications
(06:34):
weren't enough.
Her family was determined tohelp her manage the pain without
jeopardizing her recovery andtook her to a doctor named
Randeep Mann, who was known toinclude pain management in his
practice.
They were very cautious andwary of her history, but they
were transparent with Dr Mannabout her past.
They explained everything tohim and made one thing
(06:56):
abundantly clear that theywanted treatment that would not
derail her hard-won sobriety.
Dr Mann seemed understanding.
He listened and assured thefamily he could manage Ellie's
pain while keeping her inrecovery.
Her mother left the appointmentwith a sense of relief,
believing that he truly caredand was committed to helping in
a safe way.
(07:16):
Dr Mann prescribed twomedications for Ellie Xanax and
Vicodin.
Oh jeez, if we know anythingabout those guys highly
addictive.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Both of them.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yes, it had been 14 months since Ellie's first visit
to Dr Randeep Mann.
Her back pain had improvedsignificantly and, on the
surface, life seemed to bestabilizing.
For the first time in a longtime, there was room for joy and
room for her family to stepback a little bit and just
breathe.
But by spring, ellie's familybegan noticing um familiar signs
(07:57):
.
The signs were subtle at first,but impossible to ignore.
She was hard to up, she seemedsluggish and was frequently
constipated.
The Ellie that they had startedto see re-emerging was slipping
away again.
Unbeknownst to them, ellie wasbecoming addicted, this time not
to street drugs, but to thevery medications prescribed to
(08:18):
help her.
What started out as a hopefulstep towards managing the pain
had opened the door to a new anddangerous dependency.
On January 30, 2002, ellie'smother, teresa, and her partner
had boarded a flight to LasVegas.
It was supposed to just be ashort getaway, something light,
(08:39):
after the years of heavy worry,and when their plane touched
down, teresa's phone began toring.
She expected it was Ellie.
You know she knew when theirflight was, so she thought it
was her calling to make surethat they had landed safely.
But it wasn't Ellie, it wasTeresa's cousin who said there's
something I need to tell you.
Teresa instinctively handed thephone to her partner and her
(09:02):
stomach dropped.
Something was wrong, terriblywrong, and she listened in
silence.
Then, placing a steady hand onTeresa's shoulders this was her
partner um touched her, her eyesmet his and the words quote we
lost Ellie and quote came fromhis mouth.
The words shattered the air.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Oh no, I can't imagine.
Back in Russellville oh no, Ican't imagine.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Back in Russellville, I know I can't imagine.
Back in Russellville.
Investigators had enteredEllie's apartment.
They found her lying still onthe couch.
Prescription bottles werescattered nearby.
Toxicology reports would laterconfirm what they already feared
Ellie had died of a drugoverdose.
To her family it made no sense.
(09:48):
She hadn't seemed depressed.
There had been no obvious signsof despair.
The medical examiner ruled itan accidental death.
Teresa, heartbroken naturally,and searching for answers, made
a phone call to Dr, who had seenellie just days before her
death.
She said to him she saw youfriday afternoon.
(10:08):
Why did she die?
And he just cool, calm andcollected, said she overdosed.
Theresa says she overdosed onwhat you gave her.
And his voice was cold anddetached and he said quote I
have no control over my patients.
When people leave, they can doanything with their medications.
(10:28):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Ugh Douchebag.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
There was no apology, no empathy, no sense of loss.
Teresa remembers that momentvividly.
Not just the grief but thechilling realization that this
man who once seemed so attentive, so trustworthy, showed zero
compassion.
In the months that followed,ellie's death became more than a
personal tragedy.
It was part of a disturbingtrend.
(10:55):
Local investigators begannoticing an uptick in overdose
deaths.
At each scene they gatheredevidence pill bottles,
prescriptions and medicalrecords.
Again and again, one namecontinued to appear Dr Randeep
Mann.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Have you heard of this guy before?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
He's a real treat, apparently, yeah.
A pattern was emerging, onethat could not be ignored.
Mann was prescribing unusuallyhigh volumes of powerful
narcotics to patient afterpatient.
Families were grieving, thecommunity was suffering, and yet
, at the time, there were fewlegal tools to stop him.
In 2002, no clear law existedto hold a doctor criminally
(11:41):
responsible for over-prescribingmedication.
So, despite the growing bodycount, dr Mann continued to
practice.
If no one could stop him, morepeople like Ellie would continue
to die.
So who is this?
Randip Mann?
He's not really a treat.
Like I said, he arrived in theUnited States in 1980.
He had recently, at the time,graduated from the Armed Forces
(12:05):
Medical College in Pune, india,which is an elite institution
known for training militaryphysicians.
In pursuit of a greateropportunity, he completed an
internship in Wisconsin andeventually became board
certified in internal medicine.
For years, he built a career asa conventional doctor, but in
1998, everything changed.
(12:26):
While traveling throughTennessee, he was involved in a
serious motorcycle accident.
The injuries were very severeand life-altering, and when he
recovered, something in himseemed to shift, whether it was
the pain he endured, thefrustration with treatment, or a
new perspective gained from thesuffering.
He made a pivotal decision thathe wanted to specialize in pain
(12:47):
management.
At the time, pain managementwas emerging as a fast-growing
field, largely unregulated andhighly lucrative.
Mann returned to Arkansas andopened the only pain management
clinic in Russellville.
The response from the communitywas immediate.
Business was booming.
(13:08):
Patients came in droves,desperate for relief.
Many of these people weresuffering after injuries,
surgeries or chronic conditionsthat left them with persistent
pain.
He offered answers in the formof prescriptions.
In a rural area with fewspecialists and even fewer
restrictions, he quickly becamea central figure in the region's
(13:30):
healthcare landscape.
But behind the rapid success,something darker was beginning
to take root.
People were getting more thanrelief.
They were getting hooked, andno one seemed to be watching.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Shelly Green was the youngest of three girls, the
baby of the family, bright,playful and full of life.
Oh boy year.
And though the split wasdifficult for everyone, it hit
Shelly really hard.
The safe, predictable structureof her life unraveled and in
the chaos she turned to alcohol.
Drinking became her way ofnumbing the pain and how she
coped with the change that shecouldn't control.
(14:15):
Not long after her mother wasdiagnosed with fibromyalgia and
rheumatoid arthritis, bothpainful, chronic illnesses that
don't always show visiblesymptoms.
Watching her mom navigate aworld of pain and prescriptions,
shelly saw an opportunity.
She began to claim that she toowas suffering.
She mimicked her mother'ssymptoms so convincingly that
(14:38):
she eventually was taken toseeing the same doctor her
mother trusted, dr Randeep Mann.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Oh no, seen the same doctor her mother trusted dr
randy man.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh no, despite being a teenager, without a formal
diagnosis or a legitimatemedical reason, shelly walked
out of man's office withpowerful prescriptions.
He gave her xanax, hydrocodone,oxycodone and methadone.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
All four, all four.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Without a diagnosis.
And she's a teenager?
Oh yeah, yep.
Oh, good lord.
And they weren't even low dosesor cautious trial runs.
They were strong addictivemedications, and all of them for
her unnecessary, oh my goodlord.
But he didn't ask questions, hejust choo-choo-choo on his
little pad paper.
Here you go, prescribed.
(15:25):
Within six months, shelly hadspiraled into a full-blown
addiction.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I mean as anyone would.
How could you?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
not Right.
Yeah.
What began as a weekendpill-popping situation escalated
quickly.
Her personality began to shift.
The bubbly, joyful girl herfamily knew began to fade and in
her place was someone harder,angrier, unrecognizable.
And then, just four monthsafter the death of Ellie Harris,
shelly became nearly astatistic of the Russellville
(15:54):
community.
No, on May 30, 2002, her motherfound her unconscious in bed.
She had taken too many pills.
Paramedics rushed her to thehospital and there the
toxicology tests revealedsomething deeply alarming she
had Demerol in her system.
Demerol is a heavy-duty opioidtypically administered only in a
(16:16):
clinical setting, via injection.
It's not a drug that you canjust pick up at the pharmacy.
So someone had given thisdirectly to her.
And once you know what, the deanumber associated with the
demerol traced right back to drman oh boy, okay, isn't that?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
oh, I mean demerol, that's like that's.
You give people that whenthey're undergoing like a
procedure that they need to beout for yeah, lord, like im
injection right like iv you know, like if they're claustrophobic
and they need an mri orsomething.
And there's people monitoringtheir blood pressure and
respiratory stuff because thisstuff's not safe without medical
(16:57):
attention.
Holy cow, miss, she's ateenager.
On all the other stuff too, I'mso upset.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
So Shelly.
Luckily she survived theoverdose and she was sent to a
rehab facility on a 72 hourpsychiatric hold.
But the hold wasn't long enoughwhich is typically not and then
within days of being releasedshe was back on the pills.
Her family was desperate andexhausted and continued to plead
with her to stop seeing Dr Mann, but she refused.
(17:30):
And one day her sister found anopportunity to look through
Shelly's purse and inside shediscovered two prescription
bottles among many, but thesetwo that she had found had her
own name on them, so thesister's name.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Mm-hmm, not Shelly's name.
Oh boy, okay.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
And so, stunned and absolutely betrayed, she filed a
police report.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That must have been so hard for her, but that's
absolutely what needed to happen.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
But it's like you just I'm like I gotta save my
sister, so like this is gonnasuck, but it has to be done.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Who is this guy that's prescribing for people
that haven't even met him?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
He's a real puke.
When Shelly was brought in forquestioning, she didn't even
hesitate.
She told the police exactlywhat was happening.
She explained how Dr Mann wouldwrite her prescription for a
certain number of days, but ifshe ran out early he would write
a second prescription insomeone else's name, and often
it was her sister's.
That way she could keep thepills coming.
(18:28):
So for police, this was a breakthat they had been hoping for,
because you know all thosebottles were always tracing back
to him.
But they didn't really.
There was nothing they could do.
Until then their hands had beentied, and so, like I said
before, the law made it nearlyimpossible to stop a doctor from
over prescribing.
But forgery, that was somethingthat they could pursue.
(18:48):
So they probed Shelly for moreinformation, and what she said
next blindsided them like falloff your chair Blindside.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
What's going on?
Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I don't know if I want to know this she she
revealed that the relationshipwith Dr Mann went beyond
prescriptions.
She told them that she had beentrading sexual favors for pills
.
It had just become part oftheir routine.
She would go into the clinicnear closing time and inside the
(19:25):
office he would give her aninjection of demerol, you know,
to loosen her up, she said, andthen they would have sex.
Oh, he's a monster.
He'd hand her more pills, oftenfrom a private stash, not even
through official prescriptions,and then she'd leave.
There was no shame in the wayshe recounted their transactions
, no sense that this was unusual, for shelly.
(19:46):
This was just how things hadgone, how things worked.
Oh my god, he needs to be,isn't?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
that wild so disgusting.
I cannot believe that he abusedpeople like this, because I'll
tell you what she's just onethat we know about there's gotta
be more.
This is so disgusting and suchan abuse of power and the and
the fact that he did this justshows that he knows that this is
(20:11):
addictive material that's inhigh demand and he's just
abusing this power and whateverhappened to uh do no harm to
patients yeah, you know thatoath that we always talk about
the hippocratic.
Yeah, I hate this guy so muchokay yeah, it unfortunately gets
(20:34):
so much worse.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
No, amanda, yeah, okay, so sidebar because I will
get back to the story.
But remember last week when Iwas like I found something
online when I was doing myresearch that I was like, is
this even the same case?
But like, how many people arenamed Randy Mann?
Yeah, oh yeah.
No, it gets worse.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, so what had started as a teenager mimicking
her mother's illness and hadspiraled into exploitation,
addiction and criminalmanipulation, and can I just say
rape Because she's a teenager.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
am I right?
I'm assuming he's a full-assadult?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
And you're giving her Demerol to loosen her up first.
Okay, mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, she was both avictim and a key to unlocking
something far larger a system ofabuse hiding in plain sight,
fueled by the authority andaccess of a man trusted to heal.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So, as we already alluded to and talk about, often
a doctor is sworn to do no harm.
But by now investigators weregrappling with the reality that
Dr Randandeep Mann had not onlyharmed patients, he assisted
them in becoming addicted, andonce they were hooked he held
all the power.
Some patients would give upanything to stay in his good
(21:53):
graces.
Pills became currency, and forsome women their currency was
their body.
The claim that Dr Mann had beentrading sexual favors for
prescriptions was explosive.
Shelly's testimony had shockedeven the most seasoned
detectives.
But allegations alone weren'tgoing to be enough.
They needed proof, and withoutit it was just her words against
(22:16):
his and dr man, for all of hisflaws, knew how to protect
himself, because they always doInvestigators hoped that Shelly
might agree to wear a wire towalk into the clinic and get him
talking.
But she refused.
She wasn't just a witness, shewas a dependent, and Dr Mann was
her dealer.
Going against him meant cuttingoff the one thing she felt she
(22:39):
couldn't live without.
So the police turned to a localnarcotics unit, hoping one of
their informants might be ableto help.
But when they checked the namesthey hit another wall.
Many of the informants werealready Dr Mann's patients, so
no one was willing to cross him.
But still investigators werebeginning to connect the dots.
(23:00):
Over-deaths, overdose deathswere increasing.
Prescription bottles pointedback to that name and they
realized that Ellie's deathhadn't been an isolated tragedy.
Rather, it was part of a muchlarger pattern.
So they thought let's go toEllie's mother and share this
information with her.
They told her what theysuspected that Dr Mann was
(23:23):
overprescribing these powerfulopioids to many people, and more
and more lives were being lost.
Teresa did not hesitate Go,mama bear.
She wanted to assist theinvestigators in any way that
she could.
So this is now 18 months afterher daughter's death.
She filed a formal complaintand the complaint set in motion
(23:43):
a hearing before the ArkansasState Medical Board.
On August 8, 2003, a panel ofdoctors and health professionals
convened, and at the center ofit was Dr Randy McMahon.
His demeanor was confident anda bit combative.
He didn't show remorse orreflection.
Instead he continued to placeblame on his patients.
(24:05):
When Ellie's name came up, hedidn't express sadness or regret
.
He simply shared that they werequote becoming friends, end
quote and claimed that she hadother problems that she hadn't
shared.
He then had the audacity toturn towards her grieving mother
and said let's hear from hermother, let's get her up here,
(24:26):
let's ask what kind ofrelationship she had with her
daughter.
No empathy, no ownership, justdeflection.
He denied every allegation ofsexual misconduct and again
without physical evidence.
The board had no way to confirmor disprove the claims.
But the volume of concerns, theoverdose statistics and the
(24:47):
recklessness in his prescribinghabits were too much to ignore.
So on October 2, 2003, theboard voted to suspend his DEA
license, which is the licensethat allows him to prescribe.
It was a small victory andimmediately the impact of this
decision was felt.
Overdose cases in the communitydropped and for the first time
(25:10):
in years the death toll sloweddown.
But unfortunately it wouldn'tlast.
But before we talk more aboutthat.
It's time for a chart.
No chart, no chart, no chart.
No, welcome to the chart notesegment where we learn about
(25:31):
what's happening in medicine andhealth care.
All right, so there's ahospital in georgia called emory
hillandale and it has becomethe first hospital in the United
States to fully adopt Apple'secosystem, including Mac, iPhone
, iPad and Apple Watch to beintegrated with Epic Systems
(25:51):
healthcare apps to enhanceclinical workflows and patient
care.
This tech overhaul aims toimprove efficiency, mobility and
communication for clinicians,while also enhancing patient
engagement and satisfaction.
We're not just changingtechnology, we're changing a
culture, says Ravi Thadani MD,MPH, Executive Vice President
(26:14):
for Health Affairs of EmoryUniversity and Executive
Director of Emory's WoodruffHealth Sciences Center.
Emory Healthcare is redefiningboth the patient and clinician
experiences with a moreefficient and intuitive
technology-driven process.
As clinicians, we join thefield with a deep commitment to
serve those in need, said VikramNarayan, MD, Assistant
(26:37):
Professor of Urology at EmoryUniversity and a urologic
oncologist at Emory Healthcare.
He said.
But the reality of healthcaredelivery is inherently complex
and multifaceted Across theindustry as a whole.
Administrative burden combinedwith shrinking workforce is
(26:57):
resulting in an uptick inburnout of frontline workers.
Say it louder for those in theback, sir, Thank you.
So, to alleviate some of theadministrative burden, laptops
and desktop computers across the100-bed hospital have been
replaced with Mac computers thatrun Epic.
Nursing stations are equippedwith iMac and Mac Mini, and
(27:20):
physicians are able to managepatient care from wherever they
are.
Because the portability of theMacBook Air.
Care teams can managepatient-specific data, such as
allergies, precautions and otherrelevant information, using a
magnetically attached iPadoutside of each patient room.
This effort helps to improvecommunication and coordination
(27:42):
between care teams, and updatesbetween the care teams show on
the iPad in real time.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Okay, so this is kind of like what is currently, or
used to be, the whiteboard thatmy daughter wrote DO on so that
wouldn't happen.
Now, exactly, progress, yay.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
That's so funny, um, additionally, every nurse and
physician has their own iphoneto stay connected, and
physicians are using apple watchto more quickly respond to
patient needs as they arise.
So, for example, um, if acritical lab result comes in, um
, it will just pop up on thewrist and then the doctor can
look at it right away.
So, prior to the development ofthese systems, they conducted a
proof of concept program atEmory St Joseph Hospital and,
(28:32):
after deploying the iMac,macbook and iPhone for shared
use by registered nurses andclinicians, care team
satisfaction surged and nurseretention remained strong, which
is excellent because we needmore nurses yeah, we do.
Nurses and clinicians citedimprovements like faster login
(28:53):
time with Apple devices, ease ofdocumentation and less eye
strain because of some bluelight whatever screen thing
Apple has.
Um, yeah, additional researchshowed that combining Apple
technology with Epic and abridge ambient documentation
saved an average of two hours aday compared to legacy systems.
That's a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
That's awesome.
I just started using a bridge,um, which is like you asked the
patient.
It's, it's kind ofuncomfortable at first, but
you're like, um, I'm going toare you okay with me recording
you on my iphone, um?
And then you tell the patient,like it's not gonna if we talk
about the weather or you tell meany secrets, it's not gonna,
(29:33):
it's not gonna put that in yourhealth history and I'll tell you
what this thing is so smart.
It has saved me so much time,really, because I do.
I like to look back and say,well, we talked about xyz, and
this is who this patient is andthis is what their environment
is and this is why this isimportant to them.
And it's so hard to rememberthat at the end of the day, when
(29:54):
you're seeing 14 patients a dayor whatever.
Yeah, um, so it's been.
It's been really good.
And I did have I did havesomeone who was like, okay,
we're gonna're going to testthis.
And then they told me a secret.
I was like, all right, cause Iwas.
This is so new, like in thelast week or so I've tried this.
So I told this patient do youmind being a Guinea pig?
(30:16):
And it was, it was a teenagerand she was like, um, I don't
mind.
And I was like, okay, but justso you know.
You know, if you tell you cantell me secrets, but it won't
record the secrets, it'll knowwhat's important and what's not.
And so she told me a secret andthen we both went into the
record to see and it recordedthe secret and it didn't.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So, um, I'm just so excited so when you play it back
, is it just a transcription ofwhat was said or do you actually
you can hear like audio?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
so no, you don't hear it at all.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It transcribes the whole conversation and then out
of that it pulls.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, it transcribes the whole thing but it doesn't
go on the record.
It's just like a, a quick draft, because if you say well, and
then it summarizes so let's saysomeone was talking for a long
time about their blood pressuremedication and how it made him
feel it might just say, well, henotices, when he lifts
something heavy he gets a littlelightheaded and he's tried X, y
(31:08):
, z.
But if you right-click, beforeyou decide to save what a bridge
tells you to do, if youright-click, it'll say, show me
the evidence.
And it'll go back to thetranscript and say, well, it
deduced that from thisconversation.
That's so cool.
And it'll show you the actualtranscript and then you can
(31:29):
delete it or rewrite it orwhatever.
But I'm pretty excited aboutyou know how much time, because
it's either that or we justdon't write as much about people
, because it's just they'recutting our appointment times in
half and the nature of healthcare is like got people in um
we're more with less we needaccess and and there's yeah, so
(31:50):
yeah and I remember it'sexciting too, like I love that
it does that for you, because Imean I would just be like notes,
notes, notes during the history, especially for, like, a
vestibular patient, that's a lotof history you're collecting.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, and they are excellent sharing I had.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I had someone who wanted to talk to me for 26
minutes about things that werereally really important to him.
Uh, but not all the some of itwas politics, like, not all of
it was important, so itcondensed it down into a really
like oh, thank goodness you wereable to weed that out and I
didn't have to try and takenotes or turn my back to them
and go onto my computer, um towrite stuff down and then you
(32:29):
can just have more face-to-facetime without like I have to
write all this down or like slowdown, yeah that's awesome.
or try and remember, at the endof the day, what this person out
of however many people actuallywas telling you.
So I mean, I mean I had mydoubts, but I honestly I'm glad
it's going well.
It's going to play a role, Ithink.
Yeah, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So just to like share some key highlights of this
movement that they've done so.
Full Apple integration theyplaced the legacy hardware with
the Macs, ipads, iphones andApple Watches, enabling
clinicians to manage care moreefficiently and stay connected.
It has workflow improvementsfrom real-time updates via the
(33:12):
iPads outside the patient roomsand Apple Watch alerts to help
streamline care delivery.
Nurses and doctors reportfaster logins, easier
documentation and bettermobility.
Patient engagement so I thoughtthis was kind of cool.
But patients all have an iPadwith MyChart bedside app to
access medical records, ordermeals and communicate with the
(33:32):
care teams.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Oh, that's cool.
As inpatients, they can go on,and oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
So the article talked about how they feel more
involved with their care becauseof that.
So I thought that was cool.
Yeah, I like that a lot.
Burnout reduction.
So streamlined processes havereduced administrative burdens
and are linked to highersatisfaction and nurse retention
.
Privacy and security Apple'sbuilt-in security measures help
protect sensitive health caredata and looking ahead for them
(34:06):
emery and epic plan to furtherinnovate, including testing
technologies like apple visionpro for surgical planning and
research.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
That's awesome.
Another thing, another thing,I'm sorry.
Just one more thing that I'venoticed that's new um.
I don't know if it's part ofthe abridged software, but it's
definitely ai generated is so,and we've talked about this on
this um podcast, in the um chartnotes about how the quandary,
(34:35):
about how we need to betransparent patient.
We're not allowed to hide testresults or reports or anything.
Patients need immediate accessto it and I understand why.
But there's also an argumentlike but we need to explain.
And so now there's an, there'sanother tab, at least in Epic,
where you can see, let's say,you have an MRI and you have the
(34:55):
radiology report and it's usinglike, oh, gadolinium, with
whatever, and there was a suchand such, and you can click on
the tab and it will say likewhat does this mean?
And it will have the samereport, but in like layman's
terms, yeah, and I think that'sthat's really cool so on that.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So not just in epic, but like.
So obviously I don't work atthe hospital anymore, I don't
use these systems, but so likeas a patient now, when I've went
in for surgery recently or likehad imaging done on my app, my,
my chart app or whatever it'scalled um, I guess it's whatever
.
I don't need to say where I gowith clinic, but um it.
(35:34):
So for the radiology stuff, itdoes the same thing for the
patient's view and it will like,say, generating a
patient-friendly, whateverversion, and so it doesn't have
all that like medical jargon inthere, it's just blah, blah,
blah.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
This is what it was, but as a patient, as someone who
thinks I know a little bitabout healthcare and probably
like this is probably adangerous little amount, but you
know what I mean Like.
I want to see.
I want to see both, and so Ilove that you can do that I
think you can see both.
Yeah, at least with Epic youcan.
I don't know about the others,but you can read like the, the
(36:08):
hardcore stuff, and then you canread like well, this is what it
means in layman's terms.
And then you can go.
Okay, but you didn't explainthis.
Am I going to die tomorrow?
I mean, you can still go downthose rabbit holes.
Right rabbit holes, yeah rightwe want a rabbit hole and we
want a rabbit hole.
Right, we're all patients atthe end of the day, right?
Yeah, oh man very cool.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Okay, back to the story.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, buckle up okay, sorry, that wasn't negative
towards you, I just don't likeno, no, no, I know, yeah, I know
, I knew what you meant.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, okay, okay.
Rather than backing down, drMann was on the offensive,
offensive.
Yeah, yeah, either Sure, eitheror Sure.
He filed appeal after appeal,even launching a federal lawsuit
against the Arkansas StateMedical Board, claiming that
they had discriminated againsthim.
(37:03):
The Arkansas State MedicalBoard claiming that they had
discriminated against him.
After a drawn-out legal battle,his DEA license was reinstated
in July of 2004, and just likethat, he was back in business,
baby.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Oh God, why did it take us so long to learn the
dangers of opioids?
I know Ugh.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
The consequences of the reinstatement were swift and
devastating.
The community, which is just atown of 8 to 10 square miles in
size, quickly saw an uptick inoverdose deaths and by the end
of that year 18 more people weredead, All of them patients of
(37:40):
Dr Mann.
Outside of his clinic, peoplelined up around the block.
They weren't coming in forcheckups, y'all they were coming
in for pills.
And he wasn't just practicingmedicine anymore.
He was fueling an epidemic.
He was a full-blown drug dealerwith a dea license to do it
right the tragedy was systemic.
The safeguards that should havestopped him failed again and
(38:01):
again and again and again.
Just a bunch of legal red tape,a medical board without teeth,
a law enforcement systemstruggling to hold a physician
accountable without airtightevidence and, worst of all,
communities like russellvillebecame hot spots for addiction
and death, not because help wasunavailable, but because help
had been weaponized.
(38:21):
The people who walked into drMann's office didn't all arrive
in the same way.
Some were in pain, otherspretending to be, some were
desperate, some were manipulatedand others, like Ellie, just
came in trying to stay clean,but most of them left worse than
they arrived.
And this is what happens whenthe person with the prescription
(38:41):
pad becomes the most dangerousperson in the room.
And by the end of 2004, thedamage that randy man had
inflicted on the community wasundeniable.
He was still prescribing andpeople were dying.
One of many who was still caughtin his web was shelly.
She had continued using,cycling through moments of
clarity and chaos.
(39:02):
After a fight with her motherin December, things escalated.
Her mom, concerned andsuspicious, called the police,
and when officers searchedShelly's purse, they found an
alarming amount of pills enoughto suggest that she wasn't just
using, but perhaps she may beselling.
She was arrested and chargedwith intent to distribute and
(39:23):
she was sentenced to a year inprison.
For the first time in a longtime her family exhaled because
finally, finally, she was cleanand when she got out they said
it felt like they had Shellyback.
But the relief didn't last.
Addiction doesn't vanish behindprison doors.
And not long after her releaseShelly made her way back to Dr
(39:45):
Mann's clinic.
There's a strange symmetry inthe tragedies here.
So Ellie Harris and ShellyGreen both shared a birthday.
They were born on the same dayand their lives haunted by the
same man.
That connection took an eerieturn when Shelly appeared on the
doorstep of Teresa Harris andher husband asking about a
(40:06):
rental property that they hadadvertised.
Teresa immediately recognizedthat Shelly was high.
She also realized throughconversation that she was
something else.
This girl was another patientof Dr Mann.
Teresa, ever compassionate,didn't turn her away and instead
offered kindness and askedquestions.
She listened and she soonlearned the same disturbing
(40:28):
pattern.
Shelly didn't have insurance,but she didn't need it because
we know man didn't ask, he justwrote prescriptions and it was
all too familiar.
And then came the finalheartbreak in Shelly Green's
story, the final heartbreak inShelly Green's story.
On October 1st 2005, shelly wasdropped off at a local hospital
(40:50):
unconscious by two men who lefther at the door and drove away.
Doctors did what they could,but it was too late.
Her brain was unresponsive.
Another young woman, anotherlife lost, and just another name
to add to the growing list.
Nine months later, in July 2006,dr Mann was once again called
before the Arkansas StateMedical Board.
The spike in overdose deathshad triggered yet another
(41:13):
investigation, but this time thetone was different, the
frustration more visible, andthe board was out of patience.
Dr Mann's defense hadn'tchanged.
His attorneys argued that hecouldn't control what his
patients did once they left theoffice.
He prescribed responsibly, theyclaimed If someone had
overdosed it wasn't his fault.
(41:33):
But Dr Trent Pierce, a familiarface in the room as the
chairman of the medical board oh, he was the chairman of the
medical board through bothrounds of the investigation.
He had heard enough.
He stood and looked directly atMann and said I've been
practicing medicine for 19 years.
Do you know how many of mypatients have died from drug
(41:55):
overdoses?
Zero, none.
You, dr Mann, have had 19overdoses among your patients.
Does that not alarm you?
And Mann was livid, furious,ever defensive.
But behind the anger was adeeper truth.
His excuses were no longerenough.
His empire of prescription drugabuse was finally taken
(42:19):
seriously and the board voted tosuspend his medical license for
a second time.
Yay, yay, yay.
It was the morning of February4th 2009, and Dr Trent Pierce,
the same man who chaired theArkansas State Medical Board,
the one who publicly challengedman's practices and suspended
his license twice, was gettingready for another board meeting.
(42:40):
He stepped outside his home inWest Memphis to begin his day.
Inside, his wife heard a soundso violent, so enormous, that it
shook the house.
Kaboom.
She ran outside.
What she found was the stuffnightmares are made out of.
Her husband was lying on theflower bed by the driveway.
(43:00):
His clothes had been burnedcompletely off, his body was
charred, almost unrecognizableBlood sacks hung from both of
his eyes and his leg wasshattered, twisted unnaturally
by a compound fracture.
Dr Pierce was barely conscious,but somehow managed to mutter.
The tire blew up, 911 wascalled and he was rushed by
(43:24):
ambulance to a local hospital.
Oh my god arrived on the sceneat Dr Pierce's home.
He saw Dr Pierce's white LexusSUV, the front bumper of it
(43:45):
lying detached in the driveway.
Frapnol littered the ground anda post-blast investigation
began immediately.
They discovered pieces of whatappeared to be an MK3A2
offensive hand grenade.
Oh goodness, this is amilitary-grade grenade, not
something that you'd find atlike a sporting goods store
(44:07):
Right, and while not legallysold to civilians, such items
were known to circulate on theblack market.
Investigators also found aspare tire lying nearby.
It wasn't just blown off, ithad been weaponized.
The tire had been rigged.
Taped to the back side of itwas the grenade which had been
leaned against the front of thecar.
When Dr Pierce moved the tirethat morning you know, because
(44:31):
he's trying to get to work thegrenade detonated and there was
immediate concern.
Was this terrorism, domestic,international, political?
But there was a problem.
There's no DNA at the scene, noprints, because explosives
don't leave much.
Political.
But there was a problem.
There's no dna at the scene, noprints, because explosives
don't leave much behind.
The blast had burned away everyclue, every trace.
(44:52):
It's awful.
So the investigation turned tomotive.
Who would want to hurt DrPierce?
He was widely respected,well-liked, not just for his
profession but in his community.
A small-town doctor whovolunteered, mentored and saved
lives had been any recentdisciplinary hearings.
(45:17):
Were there any doctors who hadlost something valuable?
The board provided a short listof five names and Dr Randy Mann
was one of them.
To some his name stood outimmediately.
For Teresa Harris, it wasn'teven a question that he must
have been involved.
She said he lost his power andTrent Pierce is the one who took
it from him.
There had always been tensionbetween the two men.
(45:39):
Man hated being questioned, hedidn't like being told that he
was wrong and Dr Pierce,steadfast and unrelenting during
both trials, hadn't acceptedman's excuses.
He called them exactly whatthey were deadly.
It was a clash of philosophiesethics versus ego, medicine
versus manipulation and craveversus control.
(46:01):
And now one of them had nearlybeen killed.
The explosive outside DrPierce's home changed everything
.
This wasn't about overprescriptions anymore.
It wasn't about vaguesuspicions or regulatory
hearings.
This was criminal, violent,intentional.
Investigators had a suspect,but they needed more.
(46:26):
What followed was one of themost intense and complex
investigations in Arkansas lawenforcement history, and it
would take them from pillbottles and patient records to
weapons and stockpiles andmurder plots.
I actually read during myresearch that this case is used
in like um, like when you'regoing to school to be a lawyer.
Yeah, yeah, it's part of likeyour curriculum when you're in
law school.
(46:46):
Law school is the word I waslooking for.
On the evening of the bombingagents from the AFT and AR that
was a note for myself ArkansasState Police arrived at Dr
Mann's home.
That was a note for myself.
Arkansas State Police arrivedat Dr Mann's home.
They sat him down and askedquestions like where were you
the night of February 3rd andthe morning of February 4th?
And he claimed that he had beenat the gym around 10 pm the
(47:08):
night before.
And as for the morning of thebombing, he said he was still
asleep in his bed at home inRussellville.
So if this was true, it wouldplace him about 200 miles away
from Dr Pierce's home in WestMemphis.
But this didn't rule him out asa suspect, because the drive
could certainly be done in justover three hours, which is
plenty of time to plant thedevice and make it back home
(47:30):
before sunrise.
During the interview, mann wastransparent about his gun
collection and offered to showit to agents.
It wasn't just a few pistols ina drawer, my friends.
No, no, no.
He had federal firearm license,so he had a stockpile of vast
and legally registered arsenalof machine guns, assault rifles
(47:51):
and, inside a locked safe, two40mm grenade launchers.
What, yes, grenade launchers,the kind that fire the exact
type of explosive that nearlykilled Dr Pierce.
However, mann, of course,insisted that he didn't have any
actual grenades to go with them.
He just owned the launchers.
(48:11):
And owning the launchers waslegal if they were registered,
but the ownership of grenadesthemselves is a much more
tightly controlled situationTightly controlled.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
What do we need?
Grenades for people AnybodyLike, if you're, if it's not
what You're, not going to throwa grenade at a deer, are you?
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Come on, I would guess not what the hell's going
on here, oh God.
Agents followed up on the alibiand a gym employee confirmed
seeing him at the gym around 10pm.
So that checked out, but itdidn't exonerate him, not by a
long shot.
Investigators were at afrustrating impasse.
They had no DNA, nofingerprints, nothing concrete
(48:55):
to place Mann at the scene.
But then, a month after thebombing, fate intervened by way
of a city worker who was doingroutine maintenance near man's
home.
He was walking near a waterlinewhen the heel of his boot
caught something in the dirt.
Curious, he turned around andnoticed a piece of metal peeking
out from the ground.
(49:16):
He called over a coworker andtogether they dug it up.
What they unearthed was amilitary ammo box Inside 98 40
millimeter grenades.
Wait what?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
98.
Almost 100 grenades 98.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Like full-ass grenades, 98 grenades, full-ass
grenades, grenades 98 grenades,full ass grenades, just in your
MFing lawn.
Oh, like I don't know muchabout.
No, I don't even know much, Idon't know nothing.
What About grenades?
Speaker 1 (49:47):
No, I don't either.
But like first of all, why didhe, why did he have 100 grenades
?
Second of all, what are youdoing burying them there?
Was he hoping that?
Speaker 2 (49:59):
I would be like, petrified, to mow the lawn.
I'll be like knowing thatyou're mowing the lawn over this
box.
Third of all, did you happen tobuy 100 and now you only have
98?
So the two?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
that got your, that got him in the car, the tire
right.
So like the other 98, hethought, well, I'll just bury
him here because somebody mighttrip over this like what, what?
Speaker 2 (50:20):
did you get them at costco?
Did you get like a bulk saleprice?
What was happening?
Why do you have like a 98?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I have so many, so many questions.
I don't get it okay.
Well, hopefully you'll answerthem.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Um yeah, so they were buried just a mere 875 feet
from this man's house dork.
Uh, freaking weirdo.
So I'm sure you've alreadyguessed, but the kind of
grenades that were found matchedthe exact caliber needed for
his launchers.
But remember, he didn't haveany, he just had the launchers
and it's weird.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
I mean, they're only 875 feet from my house, but I
don't know how those got there.
That's so strange wild idiotright.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Had I known they were there the whole time, I could
use my launchers.
I would put the other two days,oh my gosh okay not only were
they the kind that matched thelaunchers that he had, they were
the kind that matched the blastsignature of the weapon used to
blow up Dr Pierce, and so thisdiscovery changed everything,
(51:24):
thank goodness.
Investigators rushed to securea search warrant, and inside his
home they found more than justthe launchers they found the lot
numbers on the buried grenadesthat matched the ammo in his
collection.
But what truly disturbedinvestigators and I'm shocked
(51:46):
that this was still there?
But they found a spare tirecasually leaning against a
shower wall, the exact kind oftire used in the bombing,
positioned just so like he hadrehearsed the attack, testing
how to balance the grenade, howto detonate it right at the
right time.
I'm like, okay, I'm glad that,like, criminals are dumb.
(52:09):
Yeah, like, if you already beenquestioned, do you think you
might get rid of that?
I?
Speaker 1 (52:16):
don't know.
I kind of like being a littlelike grenade launcher slash
spare tire scenario by my shower.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Also if you were practicing in your own house.
You're going to blow up yourown house, you big dumb idiot.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Thank God he was a dumb ass.
Okay, thank God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yeah, so you know that evening he was arrested.
But still the case wasn't easy,as all the evidence was
circumstantial there was noconfession, no eyewitness, no
bomb making manual, no forensicsmoking gun.
Prosecutors couldn't even bringup the 19 overdose deaths that
he was connected to, but notdirectly at least yeah, which is
(52:56):
ridiculous okay.
So they found ways to suggestthe motive in the courtroom by
explaining his loss of power andthat his reputation had been
destroyed and that his ego wasso wounded by the man who had
dared to strip him of theauthority he once wielded like a
weapon.
The man who once sat at thecenter of a small town medical
(53:18):
empire, the one who handed outprescriptions like candy, the
one that ruined lives and thenshrugged, was now facing justice
, not for pills, but for weaponsof war.
And now can you see, when I wasdoing my research, I'm like
wait a second, what Is this?
The?
Speaker 1 (53:33):
same guy.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Yeah, what I know?
Yeah, so it wasn't the endingthat anyone would have expected,
but thank God he was arrested.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
So whatever it takes, but yeah, holy cow.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
Yeah.
So in August of 2010, a federaljury convicted man on seven of
eight counts.
Count one conspiracy to use andaiding and abetting in the use
of a weapon of mass destruction,causing damage or destruction
of a vehicle by means of anexplosive, resulting in personal
injury.
Possession of unregisteredgrenades.
(54:06):
Possession of unregisteredmachine gun.
Possession of a machine gun.
Conspiracy to corruptlyobstruct an official proceeding,
which was because his wife hidsome paperwork which she had her
own trials for, but aiding andabetting in the corrupt
concealment of documents withintent to impair the use of it
(54:27):
in an official proceeding.
So he was acquitted on thecharge of possessing an
unregistered shotgun, whateverthe trial that ended.
On February 4th 2009,.
Dr Pierce was severely injuredwhen a bomb, concealed in that
spare tire and rigged with thatgrenade, exploded outside of his
home.
The explosion causedsignificant injuries, including
(54:49):
the loss of an eye and partialdeafness.
Investigators linked the attackto Dr Mann and after
discovering those, you know,just 98 military, just 98
grenades buried in his residencematched the type used in the
bombing and additionally, thespare tire in his home was
believed to be staging inpractice, because why would you
(55:11):
just have the other spare tire?
So he was convicted on multiplecounts related to use of the
weapon of mass destructionagainst Dr Pierce and his
vehicle possession of theseunregistered weapons.
Like I've already said, he wassentenced by the United States
District Judge Brian Miller tolife plus 360 months in prison
(55:34):
on two bombing counts, 10 yearson three weapons counts and five
years on obstruction counts.
The weapons convictionsincluded counts of owning an
unregistered machine gun andpossessing almost 100 grenades
which were found near hisresidence.
As we know, he was also fined$100,000.
(55:55):
Dr Pierce and his wife, melissa, filed a civil lawsuit against
Mann and he was awarded he.
Dr Pierce was awarded 12 and ahalf million in compensatory
damages and 100 million inpunitive damages.
Melissa was awarded 5 millionin compensatory damages for a
loss of consortium and 5 millionin punitive damages, bringing
(56:17):
the total judgment against manto 122 and a half million.
He is currently serving hissentence life sentence at the
federal prison in tucson,arizona amanda, thank you for
bringing this to light.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
I guess thank god that he was such a stupid,
stupid ass criminal that he gotcaught um doing these absurd,
horrible things to get rid ofthe one person who was trying to
hold him accountable.
But what really bothers me isthat it doesn't seem like it's
done anything about.
It didn't bring to light um theover prescription of opioids
(57:01):
you know, um and I know this waswhen did when was this 2000?
Speaker 2 (57:06):
early 2000 2010.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
He was yeah, yeah I mean, he started in 2000, 2002
or something right.
Um and I.
I would like to think thatthings are different now that we
have different regulations inplace and different um.
I don't know that that thisisn't possible anymore, that
(57:28):
somebody could be heldaccountable for over prescribing
, especially when he didn't evenmeet.
Some of these people weren'teven his patients and with a
history of um addiction andstuff like this.
Stuff should be highlighted incharts, like there should be
more accountability now and I, Ifeel like I don't know.
(57:49):
I I don't know if you have theanswer, but is this, is this
better now?
Or can?
Speaker 2 (57:54):
can somebody like run deep if they, as long as they
don't try to bomb the crap outof their adversary, uh, keep
doing this sort of thing yeah, Idon't have a concrete answer,
but I'd like to say that it'sbetter right, like I would like
to say that after this happened,we learned that there needs to
be stricter monitoring of thisbut, I don't know for sure I
(58:19):
will live it I mean we are 20years later and I I do know that
I mean I've had major surgeriesand they're all like really
upset and kind of medicine togive me.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
And I by no means not that I'm judging those who are
addicted, but like I'm by nomeans addicted to opioids, and
it's like okay, well, we justtook out your spleen.
But you know what, if you couldget by with tylenol, take some
tylenol, try that yeah, let usknow.
You know.
I'm like, okay, I get it.
Though I get it, you know.
So I it's so hard to getantibiotics.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
I'm hoping, yeah, it's, and but also, this is like
a private practice clinic too,so that could look a little
different.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yeah, I just hope it's on the radar, I mean,
because honestly I don't carryNarcan around and I hear that's
a thing too.
Like you know, as citizens,when you're kind of wandering
around a metropolitan area, youshould be ready for people
who've overdosed and like tryand help them and I don't know.
It's so depressing.
(59:21):
It's so depressing that he gotaway.
He had to become like aattempted murderer.
Uh, because that's what thatwas.
You should honestly be in jailfor attempted murder, but um and
like, what was your end gamethere?
Speaker 2 (59:36):
you're gonna kill dr pierce and just hope that the
board gives you your licenseback yeah, and then you just
keep freaking just keep throwingpills at teenagers who die.
I mean well I have sex withthem sometimes too.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Yeah he is such a disgusting specimen.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
I hope he stays in there and well, he got life plus
360 months, so he ain't goinganywhere.
Okay, I wish he was somewhere,like I mean I I guess I've never
been to jail or like how oftenthey get to go outside, but I
wish he was somewhere like thatnasty weather and not just
Arizona.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
I mean he killed teenagers.
I wonder if prison justicemight place him at risk, and
he's a little more solitary, youknow.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Yeah, true, true, true.
Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Any hoozle.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Yeah, good job, any hoozles, Thank you.
I true, true, true, any whoozle.
Yeah, good job, any whoozles,thank you.
Um, I did want to share a newsponsor with you guys, because
how much do you hate it whenyour mf-ing bra is uncomfortable
?
Pretty much every day, amanda,the truth be told yeah pretty
much best part of my day istaking my bra off getting home.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
So only let's clarify you get home first, right?
You're not?
Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
well yeah no, no, I wait, I wait.
Um, so there's a company calledhandful, which I was like
that's funny, handfuls, and theywant to sponsor us.
Um, because there's nothingworse than a freaking shitty ass
sports bra, especially when I'mgoing for a run.
(01:01:06):
And then it's like well, okay,my body's not even sore from
that run, but the ladies,they're sore from bouncing.
Yeah, like and like.
Do we really need to bedoubling up?
No, now we don't have to do anyof that anymore, because
handful sports bras, they lookamazing.
I still have to order, butthey're available at handfulcom.
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(01:01:28):
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Thank God, because who loves asweaty band?
I'm pointing, you know what Imean.
Yep, so bad.
Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I'm a sweaty gal.
Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
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(01:02:07):
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At 30%.
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Love that.
Have some happy ladies.
I love that for us.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Yeah, are you ready for a quick medical mishap?
My friend, oh sure, okay.
Mishap my friend, oh sure, okay.
I am going to tell you, uh,just a quick story about how,
when I was married and I feltlike I needed somehow to connect
a bit more with my husband atthe time because he was all um,
(01:02:54):
do we need to throw out a rating?
Do we need to throw out arating?
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
not in that way.
I was like where are we goinghere?
Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
This is clean.
This is clean folks.
No, but I just felt like youknow, he's off riding these
motorcycles all the time and Iwas like you know what?
I'm not a motorcycle gal.
But I got me a little monkeybike and I was like, okay, you
know what, maybe we could dothis together, maybe this is a
way for me to have a sharedhobby.
(01:03:23):
You know, well, I exactly havea shared hobby.
So my daughter she was, I don'tknow, 13, 14 at the time, and
she had a little friend over andthey were watching anxiously
from window in the house and Ihad the monkey bike.
(01:03:44):
And now, honestly, amanda, Ihave to admit and I have to
admit to the audience andthere's going to be some
judgment here but I don't knowhow to ride a bicycle.
Okay, I'm so sorry.
When I was 10 years old, I hada bike and I sold it so I could
get a clarinet.
And that is the nerd that I amand there's no forgiveness for
that.
It's just who I am.
Okay, so your girl doesn't evenknow how to ride a bike,
(01:04:06):
bicycle.
But I'm going to learn how toride a motorcycle because you
know I'm game.
Well for sure, I like a bit ofthrills.
You know, I'm like maybe wecould, you know, blow my wig off
on the road and just enjoy,right?
So so I've got this a monkeybike.
For those of you who don't know, it's like a, a smaller honda
bike.
I mean it's like what?
(01:04:26):
1.5 liter, like nota, big deal,like.
I thought it was a goodbeginner situation.
So here I am husband at the time, super anal about his bike and
all the you.
You know, nobody must scratchit, whatever.
He's giving me my first lessonand I'm like on the side of our
backyard and so he says do this,do that and do the other.
(01:04:49):
So there I go, and next thing,you know, I didn't even go 50
feet I went and then the thingreared up on the back wheel this
is the first time I've everridden a bike in the last time
and basically smashed into atree, at which point I come off,
(01:05:09):
and it wasn't a big tree, itwas a little tree and she's not
okay.
The little tree is not okay.
I was going to say is she stillwith us?
Neither was my foot.
The tree is no, she's notlooking so great.
Um.
So I come flying off mydaughter's filming me for some
tickety talk thing and laughingher butt off.
(01:05:31):
And uh, my ex-husband isgesticulating in the yard and
chasing the bike which has goneoff without me on it and he's
like, oh my God, you scratchedthe whatever.
And I'm totally stunned and Ijust limp off like ashamedly
into the house.
Well, apparently I didsomething called whiskey
(01:05:52):
throttle, where you know youpull on the gas and then if you
do that and you step on thethrottle at the same, see, I
don't even know what it is thatI did, but whatever I did was
like telling it to do its worstand just like rocket fuel me
into the tree.
So I did the worst thing Icould possibly do and I went 50
(01:06:13):
feet and that is my entiremotorcycle career.
So I'm in the house going.
I don't feel so great.
Not only my pride, but my footis really hurting.
Uh, daughter stops laughing.
Um, mom, are you okay?
You know ex-husband comes aroundlike well, you know it's, it's
minorly scratched.
I think we're going to be good.
And I'm like I don't think I'mgoing to be good.
(01:06:34):
So we go to the emergency roomand, sure enough, I've shattered
my foot and, long story be told, six months later I've got a
metal rod in my foot, in mytrigger foot, and so my
motorcycle career is over and Ican't wear stiletto heels
anymore.
Not that I was trip trappingaround with those, but, like you
(01:06:58):
know, when you get a metal rodin your big toe you can't really
do that anymore.
So that was my medical mishap.
But also I don't have to worryabout trying to be a motorcycle
rider anymore.
So here we go, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
And then after that she got to ride one of those
little scooters after you gotfoot surgery.
Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
One of those nerdy things where you put your knee
on you know what.
That was worse than riding amotorcycle.
I just ended up.
Nah, you looked so cool.
Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Hated it.
It was in the cold months thatyou had your surgery too, wasn't
it yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
yeah, because I tried to ignore the fact that this
thing was really hurting and Icouldn't walk on it.
And, uh, I got tired of theboot.
And then eventually, mypodiatrist said you know what,
lady, we can fix it.
We just need to bypass yourjoint, your your fractured joint
, with an actual piece of metal.
And, um, so I said, okay, cool,I don't, I'm a tall girl, I
(01:07:53):
don't need to wear stilettos,let's do it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
So, yeah, well, thank you for sharing about your
motorcycle career.
I have never tried to drive one, and probably will never.
Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
I know you haven't because you said drive and I
don't think they say that.
Oh, say that you drive amotorcycle ride?
Well, aren't you driving it,sally?
Don't know, I don't think it'sa driving a motorcycle, I think
it's riding but is it driving asnowmobile?
(01:08:26):
Or is it riding now?
That's where you have to be atrue minnesotan to know the
answer to whether you ride ordrive a motor, a snowmobile I
should know the answer to that,I have a snowmobile license I.
Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
I can't answer that one you know what adam knows
everything.
Stay tuned, we'll ask adam.
So what do we have coming upnext week?
Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
well, next week we have a story about a felonious
phlebotomist.
Say that 10 times oh yeah,that's a shock.
Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Yeah, oh, dang yeah, you don't want to miss it but
okay, I'll be there and youbetter be.
Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Until then, don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or follow doctoringthe truth wherever you enjoy
your podcasts for stories thatshock, intrigue and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at
doctoringthetruthatbuzzsproutcom, or email us your own medical
mishaps and comments atdoctoringthetruthatgmail.
(01:09:26):
Be sure to follow us onInstagram at
doctoringthetruthpodcast, and onFacebook at doctoringthetruth.
We're on TikTok atdoctoringthetruth and edodpod.
That's E-D-A-U-D-P-O-D.
Don't forget to download, rateand review.
We need your ratings.
Please just give us those fivestars and a little little itty
bitty comment.
(01:09:47):
That would mean so much to us.
Be sure.
That way, we'll be sure tobring you more content next week
.
Until then, stay suspicious.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Bye goodbye, we gotta go see if Taylor releases an
album let's hope so.
Go Amanda, jenna.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello my friend, how are?
You darling, I'm goodRecovering from my little cold.
So apologize, guys, I have alittle nasal-y situation.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Well, happy Memorial Day and happy AMAs, and let's go
Tay-Tay.
We've got to get into itbecause your girl's got to
listen to the AMAs or watch the.
Amas and make sure that we'rewell represented.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Do we think she's going to be announcing new album
?
We'll see, we'll see.
I hope so.
Yeah, so, like she said, we'regoing to kind of get into it.
Happy Memorial Day.
Hope you guys had a long, nice,safe weekend.
We don't really have acorrection, other than last time
(00:51):
we were going to check theprotein count on the old yogurt
because I was yeah, we had alittle disagreement because I
said, for sure, there's no waythere's 15 grams of protein.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I don't know why, I care and I'm like, for sure, my
Chobani has that.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, okay, so they don't have 15, but they have 12
grams.
That's pretty good.
So, anyway, if y'all are intoyogurt, we get the fruit on the
bottom.
Chobani, it's pretty good,pretty good.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, but they don't sponsor us, so you know.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, and actually that's yeah, yeah.
Anyway, I was going to starttalking about my weird texture
oddities and I'm like, no, wedon't even need to go there.
So anyway, we know you guyshave heard about Stan Plus Shoes
.
You've heard about them, right?
Yeah, we've talked about them.
But just in case you didn'thear about them, let me tell you
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(02:28):
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STAYSUSPICIOUS.
I used a boatload of resources,so they will all be listed in
the show notes.
Honestly, probably one of mybiggest resources that I use is
this.
Case was covered on a oxygenchannel show, um, and it had the
(02:52):
entire transcript of the show,which was like a huge win, right
?
So if you don't have cable,then you don't have access to
shows, uh, but the wholetranscript for the show was
online, so, hey, I got a like agood storyline from that.
So, thanks, oxygen, um, triggerwarning for this episode is
substance abuse and, uh,explosives.
(03:16):
Okay, all right, shall we getinto it?
Okey-dokey, here we go.
Ellie Liana Harris was born inJuly 1980 and raised in Pine
Bluff, arkansas.
Ellie grew up full of life.
She was energetic, with apassion for sports and a love
(03:39):
for the outdoors, and she had anartistic talent that stood out
even in her early years.
Her creativity and vibrantspirit lit up the world around
her, and she was deeply loved byher close-knit, hands-on family
.
From the outside, she seemeddestined for a bright,
fulfilling life, but during highschool, something shifted.
(03:59):
Her family began to notice asubtle but undeniable change.
Ellie started pulling away.
She became distant and quiet,and her circle of friends
changed.
The light in her began to dim.
It was more than a typicalteenage rebellion.
There was something deeperhappening and eventually Ellie
opened up to her family that shehad experimented with drugs.
(04:21):
She told them that she hadtried heroin and smoked crack.
Oh, oh, I mean like you havekids.
So like I mean, could you?
Speaker 1 (04:34):
imagine Like a weed gummy I'd flip out Like holy cow
heroin.
I mean.
All it takes is once, and weknow we've talked about
cannabis-induced psychosis.
I'm just Scary.
God having kids is so scary.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, her mother Teresa was devastated.
She said quote to hear thewords your daughter took heroin,
that she got a needle and shotup heroin and she got a pipe and
she smoked some crack.
You question everything you'veever done.
End quote.
How could this have happened ina home where love and support
was abundant?
(05:09):
Ellie tried to explain Mama,it's very hard to be the only
one in the room to stand up andsay no.
Her words were heartbreaking toa mother.
The pressure to fit in, theweight of standing alone against
temptation, it had all becometoo much for Ellie.
Despite being proactive andinvolved, her family felt
(05:29):
helpless.
They were at a loss for how tohelp.
They confronted Ellie multipletimes, always leading with love
and hope.
But addiction is a powerfulforce and one that doesn't
discriminate and one that cantake root even in the most
nurturing environments.
Ellie eventually went away,root even in the most nurturing
environments.
(05:50):
Ellie eventually went away tocollege in Russellville,
arkansas.
It wasn't long before shereached out again and this time
her voice was different.
Quote Mama, you got to come andget me.
I want to get some help.
End quote.
She was just 18 years old.
The call marked a turning pointEllie entered an inpatient
rehabilitation program and overthe next several weeks she made
some really great progress.
She was engaged, hopeful andcommitted to recovery and for
(06:12):
the first time in a long timeher family began to feel hope
rising.
Ellie was proud of her decisionto seek help and of her
strength to face addiction headon.
Bless her heart, the faceaddiction head on.
But two years later, in thewinter of 2000, ellie slipped on
the ice and injured her back.
The pain was intense andover-the-counter medications
(06:34):
weren't enough.
Her family was determined tohelp her manage the pain without
jeopardizing her recovery andtook her to a doctor named
Randeep Mann, who was known toinclude pain management in his
practice.
They were very cautious andwary of her history, but they
were transparent with Dr Mannabout her past.
They explained everything tohim and made one thing
(06:56):
abundantly clear that theywanted treatment that would not
derail her hard-won sobriety.
Dr Mann seemed understanding.
He listened and assured thefamily he could manage Ellie's
pain while keeping her inrecovery.
Her mother left the appointmentwith a sense of relief,
believing that he truly caredand was committed to helping in
a safe way.
(07:16):
Dr Mann prescribed twomedications for Ellie Xanax and
Vicodin.
Oh jeez, if we know anythingabout those guys highly
addictive.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Both of them.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yes, it had been 14 months since Ellie's first visit
to Dr Randeep Mann.
Her back pain had improvedsignificantly and, on the
surface, life seemed to bestabilizing.
For the first time in a longtime, there was room for joy and
room for her family to stepback a little bit and just
breathe.
But by spring, ellie's familybegan noticing um familiar signs
(07:57):
.
The signs were subtle at first,but impossible to ignore.
She was hard to up, she seemedsluggish and was frequently
constipated.
The Ellie that they had startedto see re-emerging was slipping
away again.
Unbeknownst to them, ellie wasbecoming addicted, this time not
to street drugs, but to thevery medications prescribed to
(08:18):
help her.
What started out as a hopefulstep towards managing the pain
had opened the door to a new anddangerous dependency.
On January 30, 2002, ellie'smother, teresa, and her partner
had boarded a flight to LasVegas.
It was supposed to just be ashort getaway, something light,
(08:39):
after the years of heavy worry,and when their plane touched
down, teresa's phone began toring.
She expected it was Ellie.
You know she knew when theirflight was, so she thought it
was her calling to make surethat they had landed safely.
But it wasn't Ellie, it wasTeresa's cousin who said there's
something I need to tell you.
Teresa instinctively handed thephone to her partner and her
(09:02):
stomach dropped.
Something was wrong, terriblywrong, and she listened in
silence.
Then, placing a steady hand onTeresa's shoulders this was her
partner um touched her, her eyesmet his and the words quote we
lost Ellie and quote came fromhis mouth.
The words shattered the air.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Oh no, I can't imagine.
Back in Russellville oh no, Ican't imagine.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Back in Russellville, I know I can't imagine.
Back in Russellville.
Investigators had enteredEllie's apartment.
They found her lying still onthe couch.
Prescription bottles werescattered nearby.
Toxicology reports would laterconfirm what they already feared
Ellie had died of a drugoverdose.
To her family it made no sense.
(09:48):
She hadn't seemed depressed.
There had been no obvious signsof despair.
The medical examiner ruled itan accidental death.
Teresa, heartbroken naturally,and searching for answers, made
a phone call to Dr, who had seenellie just days before her
death.
She said to him she saw youfriday afternoon.
(10:08):
Why did she die?
And he just cool, calm andcollected, said she overdosed.
Theresa says she overdosed onwhat you gave her.
And his voice was cold anddetached and he said quote I
have no control over my patients.
When people leave, they can doanything with their medications.
(10:28):
End quote.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Ugh Douchebag.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
There was no apology, no empathy, no sense of loss.
Teresa remembers that momentvividly.
Not just the grief but thechilling realization that this
man who once seemed so attentive, so trustworthy, showed zero
compassion.
In the months that followed,ellie's death became more than a
personal tragedy.
It was part of a disturbingtrend.
(10:55):
Local investigators begannoticing an uptick in overdose
deaths.
At each scene they gatheredevidence pill bottles,
prescriptions and medicalrecords.
Again and again, one namecontinued to appear Dr Randeep
Mann.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Have you heard of this guy before?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
No.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
He's a real treat, apparently, yeah.
A pattern was emerging, onethat could not be ignored.
Mann was prescribing unusuallyhigh volumes of powerful
narcotics to patient afterpatient.
Families were grieving, thecommunity was suffering, and yet
, at the time, there were fewlegal tools to stop him.
In 2002, no clear law existedto hold a doctor criminally
(11:41):
responsible for over-prescribingmedication.
So, despite the growing bodycount, dr Mann continued to
practice.
If no one could stop him, morepeople like Ellie would continue
to die.
So who is this?
Randip Mann?
He's not really a treat.
Like I said, he arrived in theUnited States in 1980.
He had recently, at the time,graduated from the Armed Forces
(12:05):
Medical College in Pune, india,which is an elite institution
known for training militaryphysicians.
In pursuit of a greateropportunity, he completed an
internship in Wisconsin andeventually became board
certified in internal medicine.
For years, he built a career asa conventional doctor, but in
1998, everything changed.
(12:26):
While traveling throughTennessee, he was involved in a
serious motorcycle accident.
The injuries were very severeand life-altering, and when he
recovered, something in himseemed to shift, whether it was
the pain he endured, thefrustration with treatment, or a
new perspective gained from thesuffering.
He made a pivotal decision thathe wanted to specialize in pain
(12:47):
management.
At the time, pain managementwas emerging as a fast-growing
field, largely unregulated andhighly lucrative.
Mann returned to Arkansas andopened the only pain management
clinic in Russellville.
The response from the communitywas immediate.
Business was booming.
(13:08):
Patients came in droves,desperate for relief.
Many of these people weresuffering after injuries,
surgeries or chronic conditionsthat left them with persistent
pain.
He offered answers in the formof prescriptions.
In a rural area with fewspecialists and even fewer
restrictions, he quickly becamea central figure in the region's
(13:30):
healthcare landscape.
But behind the rapid success,something darker was beginning
to take root.
People were getting more thanrelief.
They were getting hooked, andno one seemed to be watching.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Shelly Green was the youngest of three girls, the
baby of the family, bright,playful and full of life.
Oh boy year.
And though the split wasdifficult for everyone, it hit
Shelly really hard.
The safe, predictable structureof her life unraveled and in
the chaos she turned to alcohol.
Drinking became her way ofnumbing the pain and how she
coped with the change that shecouldn't control.
(14:15):
Not long after her mother wasdiagnosed with fibromyalgia and
rheumatoid arthritis, bothpainful, chronic illnesses that
don't always show visiblesymptoms.
Watching her mom navigate aworld of pain and prescriptions,
shelly saw an opportunity.
She began to claim that she toowas suffering.
She mimicked her mother'ssymptoms so convincingly that
(14:38):
she eventually was taken toseeing the same doctor her
mother trusted, dr Randeep Mann.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Oh no, seen the same doctor her mother trusted dr
randy man.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Oh no, despite being a teenager, without a formal
diagnosis or a legitimatemedical reason, shelly walked
out of man's office withpowerful prescriptions.
He gave her xanax, hydrocodone,oxycodone and methadone.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
All four, all four.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Without a diagnosis.
And she's a teenager?
Oh yeah, yep.
Oh, good lord.
And they weren't even low dosesor cautious trial runs.
They were strong addictivemedications, and all of them for
her unnecessary, oh my goodlord.
But he didn't ask questions, hejust choo-choo-choo on his
little pad paper.
Here you go, prescribed.
(15:25):
Within six months, shelly hadspiraled into a full-blown
addiction.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
I mean as anyone would.
How could you?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
not Right.
Yeah.
What began as a weekendpill-popping situation escalated
quickly.
Her personality began to shift.
The bubbly, joyful girl herfamily knew began to fade and in
her place was someone harder,angrier, unrecognizable.
And then, just four monthsafter the death of Ellie Harris,
shelly became nearly astatistic of the Russellville
(15:54):
community.
No, on May 30, 2002, her motherfound her unconscious in bed.
She had taken too many pills.
Paramedics rushed her to thehospital and there the
toxicology tests revealedsomething deeply alarming she
had Demerol in her system.
Demerol is a heavy-duty opioidtypically administered only in a
(16:16):
clinical setting, via injection.
It's not a drug that you canjust pick up at the pharmacy.
So someone had given thisdirectly to her.
And once you know what, the deanumber associated with the
demerol traced right back to drman oh boy, okay, isn't that?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
oh, I mean demerol, that's like that's.
You give people that whenthey're undergoing like a
procedure that they need to beout for yeah, lord, like im
injection right like iv you know, like if they're claustrophobic
and they need an mri orsomething.
And there's people monitoringtheir blood pressure and
respiratory stuff because thisstuff's not safe without medical
(16:57):
attention.
Holy cow, miss, she's ateenager.
On all the other stuff too, I'mso upset.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
So Shelly.
Luckily she survived theoverdose and she was sent to a
rehab facility on a 72 hourpsychiatric hold.
But the hold wasn't long enoughwhich is typically not and then
within days of being releasedshe was back on the pills.
Her family was desperate andexhausted and continued to plead
with her to stop seeing Dr Mann, but she refused.
(17:30):
And one day her sister found anopportunity to look through
Shelly's purse and inside shediscovered two prescription
bottles among many, but thesetwo that she had found had her
own name on them, so thesister's name.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Mm-hmm, not Shelly's name.
Oh boy, okay.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
And so, stunned and absolutely betrayed, she filed a
police report.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
That must have been so hard for her, but that's
absolutely what needed to happen.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
But it's like you just I'm like I gotta save my
sister, so like this is gonnasuck, but it has to be done.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Who is this guy that's prescribing for people
that haven't even met him?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
He's a real puke.
When Shelly was brought in forquestioning, she didn't even
hesitate.
She told the police exactlywhat was happening.
She explained how Dr Mann wouldwrite her prescription for a
certain number of days, but ifshe ran out early he would write
a second prescription insomeone else's name, and often
it was her sister's.
That way she could keep thepills coming.
(18:28):
So for police, this was a breakthat they had been hoping for,
because you know all thosebottles were always tracing back
to him.
But they didn't really.
There was nothing they could do.
Until then their hands had beentied, and so, like I said
before, the law made it nearlyimpossible to stop a doctor from
over prescribing.
But forgery, that was somethingthat they could pursue.
(18:48):
So they probed Shelly for moreinformation, and what she said
next blindsided them like falloff your chair Blindside.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
What's going on?
Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I don't know if I want to know this she she
revealed that the relationshipwith Dr Mann went beyond
prescriptions.
She told them that she had beentrading sexual favors for pills
.
It had just become part oftheir routine.
She would go into the clinicnear closing time and inside the
(19:25):
office he would give her aninjection of demerol, you know,
to loosen her up, she said, andthen they would have sex.
Oh, he's a monster.
He'd hand her more pills, oftenfrom a private stash, not even
through official prescriptions,and then she'd leave.
There was no shame in the wayshe recounted their transactions
, no sense that this was unusual, for shelly.
(19:46):
This was just how things hadgone, how things worked.
Oh my god, he needs to be,isn't?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
that wild so disgusting.
I cannot believe that he abusedpeople like this, because I'll
tell you what she's just onethat we know about there's gotta
be more.
This is so disgusting and suchan abuse of power and the and
the fact that he did this justshows that he knows that this is
(20:11):
addictive material that's inhigh demand and he's just
abusing this power and whateverhappened to uh do no harm to
patients yeah, you know thatoath that we always talk about
the hippocratic.
Yeah, I hate this guy so muchokay yeah, it unfortunately gets
(20:34):
so much worse.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
No, amanda, yeah, okay, so sidebar because I will
get back to the story.
But remember last week when Iwas like I found something
online when I was doing myresearch that I was like, is
this even the same case?
But like, how many people arenamed Randy Mann?
Yeah, oh yeah.
No, it gets worse.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Oh no.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Yeah, so what had started as a teenager mimicking
her mother's illness and hadspiraled into exploitation,
addiction and criminalmanipulation, and can I just say
rape Because she's a teenager.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
am I right?
I'm assuming he's a full-assadult?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
And you're giving her Demerol to loosen her up first.
Okay, mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, she was both avictim and a key to unlocking
something far larger a system ofabuse hiding in plain sight,
fueled by the authority andaccess of a man trusted to heal.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So, as we already alluded to and talk about, often
a doctor is sworn to do no harm.
But by now investigators weregrappling with the reality that
Dr Randandeep Mann had not onlyharmed patients, he assisted
them in becoming addicted, andonce they were hooked he held
all the power.
Some patients would give upanything to stay in his good
(21:53):
graces.
Pills became currency, and forsome women their currency was
their body.
The claim that Dr Mann had beentrading sexual favors for
prescriptions was explosive.
Shelly's testimony had shockedeven the most seasoned
detectives.
But allegations alone weren'tgoing to be enough.
They needed proof, and withoutit it was just her words against
(22:16):
his and dr man, for all of hisflaws, knew how to protect
himself, because they always doInvestigators hoped that Shelly
might agree to wear a wire towalk into the clinic and get him
talking.
But she refused.
She wasn't just a witness, shewas a dependent, and Dr Mann was
her dealer.
Going against him meant cuttingoff the one thing she felt she
(22:39):
couldn't live without.
So the police turned to a localnarcotics unit, hoping one of
their informants might be ableto help.
But when they checked the namesthey hit another wall.
Many of the informants werealready Dr Mann's patients, so
no one was willing to cross him.
But still investigators werebeginning to connect the dots.
(23:00):
Over-deaths, overdose deathswere increasing.
Prescription bottles pointedback to that name and they
realized that Ellie's deathhadn't been an isolated tragedy.
Rather, it was part of a muchlarger pattern.
So they thought let's go toEllie's mother and share this
information with her.
They told her what theysuspected that Dr Mann was
(23:23):
overprescribing these powerfulopioids to many people, and more
and more lives were being lost.
Teresa did not hesitate Go,mama bear.
She wanted to assist theinvestigators in any way that
she could.
So this is now 18 months afterher daughter's death.
She filed a formal complaintand the complaint set in motion
(23:43):
a hearing before the ArkansasState Medical Board.
On August 8, 2003, a panel ofdoctors and health professionals
convened, and at the center ofit was Dr Randy McMahon.
His demeanor was confident anda bit combative.
He didn't show remorse orreflection.
Instead he continued to placeblame on his patients.
(24:05):
When Ellie's name came up, hedidn't express sadness or regret
.
He simply shared that they werequote becoming friends, end
quote and claimed that she hadother problems that she hadn't
shared.
He then had the audacity toturn towards her grieving mother
and said let's hear from hermother, let's get her up here,
(24:26):
let's ask what kind ofrelationship she had with her
daughter.
No empathy, no ownership, justdeflection.
He denied every allegation ofsexual misconduct and again
without physical evidence.
The board had no way to confirmor disprove the claims.
But the volume of concerns, theoverdose statistics and the
(24:47):
recklessness in his prescribinghabits were too much to ignore.
So on October 2, 2003, theboard voted to suspend his DEA
license, which is the licensethat allows him to prescribe.
It was a small victory andimmediately the impact of this
decision was felt.
Overdose cases in the communitydropped and for the first time
(25:10):
in years the death toll sloweddown.
But unfortunately it wouldn'tlast.
But before we talk more aboutthat.
It's time for a chart.
No chart, no chart, no chart.
No, welcome to the chart notesegment where we learn about
(25:31):
what's happening in medicine andhealth care.
All right, so there's ahospital in georgia called emory
hillandale and it has becomethe first hospital in the United
States to fully adopt Apple'secosystem, including Mac, iPhone
, iPad and Apple Watch to beintegrated with Epic Systems
(25:51):
healthcare apps to enhanceclinical workflows and patient
care.
This tech overhaul aims toimprove efficiency, mobility and
communication for clinicians,while also enhancing patient
engagement and satisfaction.
We're not just changingtechnology, we're changing a
culture, says Ravi Thadani MD,MPH, Executive Vice President
(26:14):
for Health Affairs of EmoryUniversity and Executive
Director of Emory's WoodruffHealth Sciences Center.
Emory Healthcare is redefiningboth the patient and clinician
experiences with a moreefficient and intuitive
technology-driven process.
As clinicians, we join thefield with a deep commitment to
serve those in need, said VikramNarayan, MD, Assistant
(26:37):
Professor of Urology at EmoryUniversity and a urologic
oncologist at Emory Healthcare.
He said.
But the reality of healthcaredelivery is inherently complex
and multifaceted Across theindustry as a whole.
Administrative burden combinedwith shrinking workforce is
(26:57):
resulting in an uptick inburnout of frontline workers.
Say it louder for those in theback, sir, Thank you.
So, to alleviate some of theadministrative burden, laptops
and desktop computers across the100-bed hospital have been
replaced with Mac computers thatrun Epic.
Nursing stations are equippedwith iMac and Mac Mini, and
(27:20):
physicians are able to managepatient care from wherever they
are.
Because the portability of theMacBook Air.
Care teams can managepatient-specific data, such as
allergies, precautions and otherrelevant information, using a
magnetically attached iPadoutside of each patient room.
This effort helps to improvecommunication and coordination
(27:42):
between care teams, and updatesbetween the care teams show on
the iPad in real time.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Okay, so this is kind of like what is currently, or
used to be, the whiteboard thatmy daughter wrote DO on so that
wouldn't happen.
Now, exactly, progress, yay.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
That's so funny, um, additionally, every nurse and
physician has their own iphoneto stay connected, and
physicians are using apple watchto more quickly respond to
patient needs as they arise.
So, for example, um, if acritical lab result comes in, um
, it will just pop up on thewrist and then the doctor can
look at it right away.
So, prior to the development ofthese systems, they conducted a
proof of concept program atEmory St Joseph Hospital and,
(28:32):
after deploying the iMac,macbook and iPhone for shared
use by registered nurses andclinicians, care team
satisfaction surged and nurseretention remained strong, which
is excellent because we needmore nurses yeah, we do.
Nurses and clinicians citedimprovements like faster login
(28:53):
time with Apple devices, ease ofdocumentation and less eye
strain because of some bluelight whatever screen thing
Apple has.
Um, yeah, additional researchshowed that combining Apple
technology with Epic and abridge ambient documentation
saved an average of two hours aday compared to legacy systems.
That's a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
That's awesome.
I just started using a bridge,um, which is like you asked the
patient.
It's, it's kind ofuncomfortable at first, but
you're like, um, I'm going toare you okay with me recording
you on my iphone, um?
And then you tell the patient,like it's not gonna if we talk
about the weather or you tell meany secrets, it's not gonna,
(29:33):
it's not gonna put that in yourhealth history and I'll tell you
what this thing is so smart.
It has saved me so much time,really, because I do.
I like to look back and say,well, we talked about xyz, and
this is who this patient is andthis is what their environment
is and this is why this isimportant to them.
And it's so hard to rememberthat at the end of the day, when
(29:54):
you're seeing 14 patients a dayor whatever.
Yeah, um, so it's been.
It's been really good.
And I did have I did havesomeone who was like, okay,
we're gonna're going to testthis.
And then they told me a secret.
I was like, all right, cause Iwas.
This is so new, like in thelast week or so I've tried this.
So I told this patient do youmind being a Guinea pig?
(30:16):
And it was, it was a teenagerand she was like, um, I don't
mind.
And I was like, okay, but justso you know.
You know, if you tell you cantell me secrets, but it won't
record the secrets, it'll knowwhat's important and what's not.
And so she told me a secret andthen we both went into the
record to see and it recordedthe secret and it didn't.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So, um, I'm just so excited so when you play it back
, is it just a transcription ofwhat was said or do you actually
you can hear like audio?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
so no, you don't hear it at all.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
It transcribes the whole conversation and then out
of that it pulls.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Yeah, it transcribes the whole thing but it doesn't
go on the record.
It's just like a, a quick draft, because if you say well, and
then it summarizes so let's saysomeone was talking for a long
time about their blood pressuremedication and how it made him
feel it might just say, well, henotices, when he lifts
something heavy he gets a littlelightheaded and he's tried X, y
(31:08):
, z.
But if you right-click, beforeyou decide to save what a bridge
tells you to do, if youright-click, it'll say, show me
the evidence.
And it'll go back to thetranscript and say, well, it
deduced that from thisconversation.
That's so cool.
And it'll show you the actualtranscript and then you can
(31:29):
delete it or rewrite it orwhatever.
But I'm pretty excited aboutyou know how much time, because
it's either that or we justdon't write as much about people
, because it's just they'recutting our appointment times in
half and the nature of healthcare is like got people in um
we're more with less we needaccess and and there's yeah, so
(31:50):
yeah and I remember it'sexciting too, like I love that
it does that for you, because Imean I would just be like notes,
notes, notes during the history, especially for, like, a
vestibular patient, that's a lotof history you're collecting.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, and they are excellent sharing I had.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I had someone who wanted to talk to me for 26
minutes about things that werereally really important to him.
Uh, but not all the some of itwas politics, like, not all of
it was important, so itcondensed it down into a really
like oh, thank goodness you wereable to weed that out and I
didn't have to try and takenotes or turn my back to them
and go onto my computer, um towrite stuff down and then you
(32:29):
can just have more face-to-facetime without like I have to
write all this down or like slowdown, yeah that's awesome.
or try and remember, at the endof the day, what this person out
of however many people actuallywas telling you.
So I mean, I mean I had mydoubts, but I honestly I'm glad
it's going well.
It's going to play a role, Ithink.
Yeah, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So just to like share some key highlights of this
movement that they've done so.
Full Apple integration theyplaced the legacy hardware with
the Macs, ipads, iphones andApple Watches, enabling
clinicians to manage care moreefficiently and stay connected.
It has workflow improvementsfrom real-time updates via the
(33:12):
iPads outside the patient roomsand Apple Watch alerts to help
streamline care delivery.
Nurses and doctors reportfaster logins, easier
documentation and bettermobility.
Patient engagement so I thoughtthis was kind of cool.
But patients all have an iPadwith MyChart bedside app to
access medical records, ordermeals and communicate with the
(33:32):
care teams.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Oh, that's cool.
As inpatients, they can go on,and oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
So the article talked about how they feel more
involved with their care becauseof that.
So I thought that was cool.
Yeah, I like that a lot.
Burnout reduction.
So streamlined processes havereduced administrative burdens
and are linked to highersatisfaction and nurse retention
.
Privacy and security Apple'sbuilt-in security measures help
protect sensitive health caredata and looking ahead for them
(34:06):
emery and epic plan to furtherinnovate, including testing
technologies like apple visionpro for surgical planning and
research.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
That's awesome.
Another thing, another thing,I'm sorry.
Just one more thing that I'venoticed that's new um.
I don't know if it's part ofthe abridged software, but it's
definitely ai generated is so,and we've talked about this on
this um podcast, in the um chartnotes about how the quandary,
(34:35):
about how we need to betransparent patient.
We're not allowed to hide testresults or reports or anything.
Patients need immediate accessto it and I understand why.
But there's also an argumentlike but we need to explain.
And so now there's an, there'sanother tab, at least in Epic,
where you can see, let's say,you have an MRI and you have the
(34:55):
radiology report and it's usinglike, oh, gadolinium, with
whatever, and there was a suchand such, and you can click on
the tab and it will say likewhat does this mean?
And it will have the samereport, but in like layman's
terms, yeah, and I think that'sthat's really cool so on that.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So not just in epic, but like.
So obviously I don't work atthe hospital anymore, I don't
use these systems, but so likeas a patient now, when I've went
in for surgery recently or likehad imaging done on my app, my,
my chart app or whatever it'scalled um, I guess it's whatever
.
I don't need to say where I gowith clinic, but um it.
(35:34):
So for the radiology stuff, itdoes the same thing for the
patient's view and it will like,say, generating a
patient-friendly, whateverversion, and so it doesn't have
all that like medical jargon inthere, it's just blah, blah,
blah.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
This is what it was, but as a patient, as someone who
thinks I know a little bitabout healthcare and probably
like this is probably adangerous little amount, but you
know what I mean Like.
I want to see.
I want to see both, and so Ilove that you can do that I
think you can see both.
Yeah, at least with Epic youcan.
I don't know about the others,but you can read like the, the
(36:08):
hardcore stuff, and then you canread like well, this is what it
means in layman's terms.
And then you can go.
Okay, but you didn't explainthis.
Am I going to die tomorrow?
I mean, you can still go downthose rabbit holes.
Right rabbit holes, yeah rightwe want a rabbit hole and we
want a rabbit hole.
Right, we're all patients atthe end of the day, right?
Yeah, oh man very cool.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Okay, back to the story.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, buckle up okay, sorry, that wasn't negative
towards you, I just don't likeno, no, no, I know, yeah, I know
, I knew what you meant.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, okay, okay.
Rather than backing down, drMann was on the offensive,
offensive.
Yeah, yeah, either Sure, eitheror Sure.
He filed appeal after appeal,even launching a federal lawsuit
against the Arkansas StateMedical Board, claiming that
they had discriminated againsthim.
(37:03):
The Arkansas State MedicalBoard claiming that they had
discriminated against him.
After a drawn-out legal battle,his DEA license was reinstated
in July of 2004, and just likethat, he was back in business,
baby.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Oh God, why did it take us so long to learn the
dangers of opioids?
I know Ugh.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
The consequences of the reinstatement were swift and
devastating.
The community, which is just atown of 8 to 10 square miles in
size, quickly saw an uptick inoverdose deaths and by the end
of that year 18 more people weredead, All of them patients of
(37:40):
Dr Mann.
Outside of his clinic, peoplelined up around the block.
They weren't coming in forcheckups, y'all they were coming
in for pills.
And he wasn't just practicingmedicine anymore.
He was fueling an epidemic.
He was a full-blown drug dealerwith a dea license to do it
right the tragedy was systemic.
The safeguards that should havestopped him failed again and
(38:01):
again and again and again.
Just a bunch of legal red tape,a medical board without teeth,
a law enforcement systemstruggling to hold a physician
accountable without airtightevidence and, worst of all,
communities like russellvillebecame hot spots for addiction
and death, not because help wasunavailable, but because help
had been weaponized.
(38:21):
The people who walked into drMann's office didn't all arrive
in the same way.
Some were in pain, otherspretending to be, some were
desperate, some were manipulatedand others, like Ellie, just
came in trying to stay clean,but most of them left worse than
they arrived.
And this is what happens whenthe person with the prescription
(38:41):
pad becomes the most dangerousperson in the room.
And by the end of 2004, thedamage that randy man had
inflicted on the community wasundeniable.
He was still prescribing andpeople were dying.
One of many who was still caughtin his web was shelly.
She had continued using,cycling through moments of
clarity and chaos.
(39:02):
After a fight with her motherin December, things escalated.
Her mom, concerned andsuspicious, called the police,
and when officers searchedShelly's purse, they found an
alarming amount of pills enoughto suggest that she wasn't just
using, but perhaps she may beselling.
She was arrested and chargedwith intent to distribute and
(39:23):
she was sentenced to a year inprison.
For the first time in a longtime her family exhaled because
finally, finally, she was cleanand when she got out they said
it felt like they had Shellyback.
But the relief didn't last.
Addiction doesn't vanish behindprison doors.
And not long after her releaseShelly made her way back to Dr
(39:45):
Mann's clinic.
There's a strange symmetry inthe tragedies here.
So Ellie Harris and ShellyGreen both shared a birthday.
They were born on the same dayand their lives haunted by the
same man.
That connection took an eerieturn when Shelly appeared on the
doorstep of Teresa Harris andher husband asking about a
(40:06):
rental property that they hadadvertised.
Teresa immediately recognizedthat Shelly was high.
She also realized throughconversation that she was
something else.
This girl was another patientof Dr Mann.
Teresa, ever compassionate,didn't turn her away and instead
offered kindness and askedquestions.
She listened and she soonlearned the same disturbing
(40:28):
pattern.
Shelly didn't have insurance,but she didn't need it because
we know man didn't ask, he justwrote prescriptions and it was
all too familiar.
And then came the finalheartbreak in Shelly Green's
story, the final heartbreak inShelly Green's story.
On October 1st 2005, shelly wasdropped off at a local hospital
(40:50):
unconscious by two men who lefther at the door and drove away.
Doctors did what they could,but it was too late.
Her brain was unresponsive.
Another young woman, anotherlife lost, and just another name
to add to the growing list.
Nine months later, in July 2006,dr Mann was once again called
before the Arkansas StateMedical Board.
The spike in overdose deathshad triggered yet another
(41:13):
investigation, but this time thetone was different, the
frustration more visible, andthe board was out of patience.
Dr Mann's defense hadn'tchanged.
His attorneys argued that hecouldn't control what his
patients did once they left theoffice.
He prescribed responsibly, theyclaimed If someone had
overdosed it wasn't his fault.
(41:33):
But Dr Trent Pierce, a familiarface in the room as the
chairman of the medical board oh, he was the chairman of the
medical board through bothrounds of the investigation.
He had heard enough.
He stood and looked directly atMann and said I've been
practicing medicine for 19 years.
Do you know how many of mypatients have died from drug
(41:55):
overdoses?
Zero, none.
You, dr Mann, have had 19overdoses among your patients.
Does that not alarm you?
And Mann was livid, furious,ever defensive.
But behind the anger was adeeper truth.
His excuses were no longerenough.
His empire of prescription drugabuse was finally taken
(42:19):
seriously and the board voted tosuspend his medical license for
a second time.
Yay, yay, yay.
It was the morning of February4th 2009, and Dr Trent Pierce,
the same man who chaired theArkansas State Medical Board,
the one who publicly challengedman's practices and suspended
his license twice, was gettingready for another board meeting.
(42:40):
He stepped outside his home inWest Memphis to begin his day.
Inside, his wife heard a soundso violent, so enormous, that it
shook the house.
Kaboom.
She ran outside.
What she found was the stuffnightmares are made out of.
Her husband was lying on theflower bed by the driveway.
(43:00):
His clothes had been burnedcompletely off, his body was
charred, almost unrecognizableBlood sacks hung from both of
his eyes and his leg wasshattered, twisted unnaturally
by a compound fracture.
Dr Pierce was barely conscious,but somehow managed to mutter.
The tire blew up, 911 wascalled and he was rushed by
(43:24):
ambulance to a local hospital.
Oh my god arrived on the sceneat Dr Pierce's home.
He saw Dr Pierce's white LexusSUV, the front bumper of it
(43:45):
lying detached in the driveway.
Frapnol littered the ground anda post-blast investigation
began immediately.
They discovered pieces of whatappeared to be an MK3A2
offensive hand grenade.
Oh goodness, this is amilitary-grade grenade, not
something that you'd find atlike a sporting goods store
(44:07):
Right, and while not legallysold to civilians, such items
were known to circulate on theblack market.
Investigators also found aspare tire lying nearby.
It wasn't just blown off, ithad been weaponized.
The tire had been rigged.
Taped to the back side of itwas the grenade which had been
leaned against the front of thecar.
When Dr Pierce moved the tirethat morning you know, because
(44:31):
he's trying to get to work thegrenade detonated and there was
immediate concern.
Was this terrorism, domestic,international, political?
But there was a problem.
There's no DNA at the scene, noprints, because explosives
don't leave much.
Political.
But there was a problem.
There's no dna at the scene, noprints, because explosives
don't leave much behind.
The blast had burned away everyclue, every trace.
(44:52):
It's awful.
So the investigation turned tomotive.
Who would want to hurt DrPierce?
He was widely respected,well-liked, not just for his
profession but in his community.
A small-town doctor whovolunteered, mentored and saved
lives had been any recentdisciplinary hearings.
(45:17):
Were there any doctors who hadlost something valuable?
The board provided a short listof five names and Dr Randy Mann
was one of them.
To some his name stood outimmediately.
For Teresa Harris, it wasn'teven a question that he must
have been involved.
She said he lost his power andTrent Pierce is the one who took
it from him.
There had always been tensionbetween the two men.
(45:39):
Man hated being questioned, hedidn't like being told that he
was wrong and Dr Pierce,steadfast and unrelenting during
both trials, hadn't acceptedman's excuses.
He called them exactly whatthey were deadly.
It was a clash of philosophiesethics versus ego, medicine
versus manipulation and craveversus control.
(46:01):
And now one of them had nearlybeen killed.
The explosive outside DrPierce's home changed everything
.
This wasn't about overprescriptions anymore.
It wasn't about vaguesuspicions or regulatory
hearings.
This was criminal, violent,intentional.
Investigators had a suspect,but they needed more.
(46:26):
What followed was one of themost intense and complex
investigations in Arkansas lawenforcement history, and it
would take them from pillbottles and patient records to
weapons and stockpiles andmurder plots.
I actually read during myresearch that this case is used
in like um, like when you'regoing to school to be a lawyer.
Yeah, yeah, it's part of likeyour curriculum when you're in
law school.
(46:46):
Law school is the word I waslooking for.
On the evening of the bombingagents from the AFT and AR that
was a note for myself ArkansasState Police arrived at Dr
Mann's home.
That was a note for myself.
Arkansas State Police arrivedat Dr Mann's home.
They sat him down and askedquestions like where were you
the night of February 3rd andthe morning of February 4th?
And he claimed that he had beenat the gym around 10 pm the
(47:08):
night before.
And as for the morning of thebombing, he said he was still
asleep in his bed at home inRussellville.
So if this was true, it wouldplace him about 200 miles away
from Dr Pierce's home in WestMemphis.
But this didn't rule him out asa suspect, because the drive
could certainly be done in justover three hours, which is
plenty of time to plant thedevice and make it back home
(47:30):
before sunrise.
During the interview, mann wastransparent about his gun
collection and offered to showit to agents.
It wasn't just a few pistols ina drawer, my friends.
No, no, no.
He had federal firearm license,so he had a stockpile of vast
and legally registered arsenalof machine guns, assault rifles
(47:51):
and, inside a locked safe, two40mm grenade launchers.
What, yes, grenade launchers,the kind that fire the exact
type of explosive that nearlykilled Dr Pierce.
However, mann, of course,insisted that he didn't have any
actual grenades to go with them.
He just owned the launchers.
(48:11):
And owning the launchers waslegal if they were registered,
but the ownership of grenadesthemselves is a much more
tightly controlled situationTightly controlled.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
What do we need?
Grenades for people AnybodyLike, if you're, if it's not
what You're, not going to throwa grenade at a deer, are you?
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Come on, I would guess not what the hell's going
on here, oh God.
Agents followed up on the alibiand a gym employee confirmed
seeing him at the gym around 10pm.
So that checked out, but itdidn't exonerate him, not by a
long shot.
Investigators were at afrustrating impasse.
They had no DNA, nofingerprints, nothing concrete
(48:55):
to place Mann at the scene.
But then, a month after thebombing, fate intervened by way
of a city worker who was doingroutine maintenance near man's
home.
He was walking near a waterlinewhen the heel of his boot
caught something in the dirt.
Curious, he turned around andnoticed a piece of metal peeking
out from the ground.
(49:16):
He called over a coworker andtogether they dug it up.
What they unearthed was amilitary ammo box Inside 98 40
millimeter grenades.
Wait what?
Speaker 1 (49:30):
98.
Almost 100 grenades 98.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Like full-ass grenades, 98 grenades, full-ass
grenades, grenades 98 grenades,full ass grenades, just in your
MFing lawn.
Oh, like I don't know muchabout.
No, I don't even know much, Idon't know nothing.
What About grenades?
Speaker 1 (49:47):
No, I don't either.
But like first of all, why didhe, why did he have 100 grenades
?
Second of all, what are youdoing burying them there?
Was he hoping that?
Speaker 2 (49:59):
I would be like, petrified, to mow the lawn.
I'll be like knowing thatyou're mowing the lawn over this
box.
Third of all, did you happen tobuy 100 and now you only have
98?
So the two?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
that got your, that got him in the car, the tire
right.
So like the other 98, hethought, well, I'll just bury
him here because somebody mighttrip over this like what, what?
Speaker 2 (50:20):
did you get them at costco?
Did you get like a bulk saleprice?
What was happening?
Why do you have like a 98?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
I have so many, so many questions.
I don't get it okay.
Well, hopefully you'll answerthem.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Um yeah, so they were buried just a mere 875 feet
from this man's house dork.
Uh, freaking weirdo.
So I'm sure you've alreadyguessed, but the kind of
grenades that were found matchedthe exact caliber needed for
his launchers.
But remember, he didn't haveany, he just had the launchers
and it's weird.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
I mean, they're only 875 feet from my house, but I
don't know how those got there.
That's so strange wild idiotright.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Had I known they were there the whole time, I could
use my launchers.
I would put the other two days,oh my gosh okay not only were
they the kind that matched thelaunchers that he had, they were
the kind that matched the blastsignature of the weapon used to
blow up Dr Pierce, and so thisdiscovery changed everything,
(51:24):
thank goodness.
Investigators rushed to securea search warrant, and inside his
home they found more than justthe launchers they found the lot
numbers on the buried grenadesthat matched the ammo in his
collection.
But what truly disturbedinvestigators and I'm shocked
(51:46):
that this was still there?
But they found a spare tirecasually leaning against a
shower wall, the exact kind oftire used in the bombing,
positioned just so like he hadrehearsed the attack, testing
how to balance the grenade, howto detonate it right at the
right time.
I'm like, okay, I'm glad that,like, criminals are dumb.
(52:09):
Yeah, like, if you already beenquestioned, do you think you
might get rid of that?
I?
Speaker 1 (52:16):
don't know.
I kind of like being a littlelike grenade launcher slash
spare tire scenario by my shower.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Also if you were practicing in your own house.
You're going to blow up yourown house, you big dumb idiot.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
Thank God he was a dumb ass.
Okay, thank God, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Yeah, so you know that evening he was arrested.
But still the case wasn't easy,as all the evidence was
circumstantial there was noconfession, no eyewitness, no
bomb making manual, no forensicsmoking gun.
Prosecutors couldn't even bringup the 19 overdose deaths that
he was connected to, but notdirectly at least yeah, which is
(52:56):
ridiculous okay.
So they found ways to suggestthe motive in the courtroom by
explaining his loss of power andthat his reputation had been
destroyed and that his ego wasso wounded by the man who had
dared to strip him of theauthority he once wielded like a
weapon.
The man who once sat at thecenter of a small town medical
(53:18):
empire, the one who handed outprescriptions like candy, the
one that ruined lives and thenshrugged, was now facing justice
, not for pills, but for weaponsof war.
And now can you see, when I wasdoing my research, I'm like
wait a second, what Is this?
The?
Speaker 1 (53:33):
same guy.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
Yeah, what I know?
Yeah, so it wasn't the endingthat anyone would have expected,
but thank God he was arrested.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
So whatever it takes, but yeah, holy cow.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
Yeah.
So in August of 2010, a federaljury convicted man on seven of
eight counts.
Count one conspiracy to use andaiding and abetting in the use
of a weapon of mass destruction,causing damage or destruction
of a vehicle by means of anexplosive, resulting in personal
injury.
Possession of unregisteredgrenades.
(54:06):
Possession of unregisteredmachine gun.
Possession of a machine gun.
Conspiracy to corruptlyobstruct an official proceeding,
which was because his wife hidsome paperwork which she had her
own trials for, but aiding andabetting in the corrupt
concealment of documents withintent to impair the use of it
(54:27):
in an official proceeding.
So he was acquitted on thecharge of possessing an
unregistered shotgun, whateverthe trial that ended.
On February 4th 2009,.
Dr Pierce was severely injuredwhen a bomb, concealed in that
spare tire and rigged with thatgrenade, exploded outside of his
home.
The explosion causedsignificant injuries, including
(54:49):
the loss of an eye and partialdeafness.
Investigators linked the attackto Dr Mann and after
discovering those, you know,just 98 military, just 98
grenades buried in his residencematched the type used in the
bombing and additionally, thespare tire in his home was
believed to be staging inpractice, because why would you
(55:11):
just have the other spare tire?
So he was convicted on multiplecounts related to use of the
weapon of mass destructionagainst Dr Pierce and his
vehicle possession of theseunregistered weapons.
Like I've already said, he wassentenced by the United States
District Judge Brian Miller tolife plus 360 months in prison
(55:34):
on two bombing counts, 10 yearson three weapons counts and five
years on obstruction counts.
The weapons convictionsincluded counts of owning an
unregistered machine gun andpossessing almost 100 grenades
which were found near hisresidence.
As we know, he was also fined$100,000.
(55:55):
Dr Pierce and his wife, melissa, filed a civil lawsuit against
Mann and he was awarded he.
Dr Pierce was awarded 12 and ahalf million in compensatory
damages and 100 million inpunitive damages.
Melissa was awarded 5 millionin compensatory damages for a
loss of consortium and 5 millionin punitive damages, bringing
(56:17):
the total judgment against manto 122 and a half million.
He is currently serving hissentence life sentence at the
federal prison in tucson,arizona amanda, thank you for
bringing this to light.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
I guess thank god that he was such a stupid,
stupid ass criminal that he gotcaught um doing these absurd,
horrible things to get rid ofthe one person who was trying to
hold him accountable.
But what really bothers me isthat it doesn't seem like it's
done anything about.
It didn't bring to light um theover prescription of opioids
(57:01):
you know, um and I know this waswhen did when was this 2000?
Speaker 2 (57:06):
early 2000 2010.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
He was yeah, yeah I mean, he started in 2000, 2002
or something right.
Um and I.
I would like to think thatthings are different now that we
have different regulations inplace and different um.
I don't know that that thisisn't possible anymore, that
(57:28):
somebody could be heldaccountable for over prescribing
, especially when he didn't evenmeet.
Some of these people weren'teven his patients and with a
history of um addiction andstuff like this.
Stuff should be highlighted incharts, like there should be
more accountability now and I, Ifeel like I don't know.
(57:49):
I I don't know if you have theanswer, but is this, is this
better now?
Or can?
Speaker 2 (57:54):
can somebody like run deep if they, as long as they
don't try to bomb the crap outof their adversary, uh, keep
doing this sort of thing yeah, Idon't have a concrete answer,
but I'd like to say that it'sbetter right, like I would like
to say that after this happened,we learned that there needs to
be stricter monitoring of thisbut, I don't know for sure I
(58:19):
will live it I mean we are 20years later and I I do know that
I mean I've had major surgeriesand they're all like really
upset and kind of medicine togive me.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
And I by no means not that I'm judging those who are
addicted, but like I'm by nomeans addicted to opioids, and
it's like okay, well, we justtook out your spleen.
But you know what, if you couldget by with tylenol, take some
tylenol, try that yeah, let usknow.
You know.
I'm like, okay, I get it.
Though I get it, you know.
So I it's so hard to getantibiotics.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
I'm hoping, yeah, it's, and but also, this is like
a private practice clinic too,so that could look a little
different.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
Yeah, I just hope it's on the radar, I mean,
because honestly I don't carryNarcan around and I hear that's
a thing too.
Like you know, as citizens,when you're kind of wandering
around a metropolitan area, youshould be ready for people
who've overdosed and like tryand help them and I don't know.
It's so depressing.
(59:21):
It's so depressing that he gotaway.
He had to become like aattempted murderer.
Uh, because that's what thatwas.
You should honestly be in jailfor attempted murder, but um and
like, what was your end gamethere?
Speaker 2 (59:36):
you're gonna kill dr pierce and just hope that the
board gives you your licenseback yeah, and then you just
keep freaking just keep throwingpills at teenagers who die.
I mean well I have sex withthem sometimes too.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Yeah he is such a disgusting specimen.
Speaker 2 (59:50):
I hope he stays in there and well, he got life plus
360 months, so he ain't goinganywhere.
Okay, I wish he was somewhere,like I mean I I guess I've never
been to jail or like how oftenthey get to go outside, but I
wish he was somewhere like thatnasty weather and not just
Arizona.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
I mean he killed teenagers.
I wonder if prison justicemight place him at risk, and
he's a little more solitary, youknow.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Yeah, true, true, true.
Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Any hoozle.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Yeah, good job, any hoozles, Thank you.
I true, true, true, any whoozle.
Yeah, good job, any whoozles,thank you.
Um, I did want to share a newsponsor with you guys, because
how much do you hate it whenyour mf-ing bra is uncomfortable
?
Pretty much every day, amanda,the truth be told yeah pretty
much best part of my day istaking my bra off getting home.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
So only let's clarify you get home first, right?
You're not?
Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
well yeah no, no, I wait, I wait.
Um, so there's a company calledhandful, which I was like
that's funny, handfuls, and theywant to sponsor us.
Um, because there's nothingworse than a freaking shitty ass
sports bra, especially when I'mgoing for a run.
(01:01:06):
And then it's like well, okay,my body's not even sore from
that run, but the ladies,they're sore from bouncing.
Yeah, like and like.
Do we really need to bedoubling up?
No, now we don't have to do anyof that anymore, because
handful sports bras, they lookamazing.
I still have to order, butthey're available at handfulcom.
They combine comfort, style andperformance.
(01:01:28):
Created by fitness instructorand mom jennifer, they're
designed to support activelifestyles with moisture wicking
fabric.
Thank God, because who loves asweaty band?
I'm pointing, you know what Imean.
Yep, so bad.
Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I'm a sweaty gal.
Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
So moisture wicking fabric, adjustable straps and
removable pads, perfect forworkouts or daily wear.
Handful bras and they'recoordinating leggings and tops
if you're into matchy-matchy aremade by women for women.
Love it, featured in topfitness magazines and loved by
customers.
Handful also gives back throughtheir Survivor Support Program,
(01:02:07):
offering free pads to breastcancer survivors.
Move confidently withactivewear that empowers.
Visit wwwhandfulcom for 30% offwith our code Stay suspicious,
stay suspicious.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
At 30%.
Spe (01:02:25):
S-T-A-Y-S-U-S-P-I-C-I-O-U-S .
30%.
Love that.
Have some happy ladies.
I love that for us.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Yeah, are you ready for a quick medical mishap?
My friend, oh sure, okay.
Mishap my friend, oh sure, okay.
I am going to tell you, uh,just a quick story about how,
when I was married and I feltlike I needed somehow to connect
a bit more with my husband atthe time because he was all um,
(01:02:54):
do we need to throw out a rating?
Do we need to throw out arating?
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
not in that way.
I was like where are we goinghere?
Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
This is clean.
This is clean folks.
No, but I just felt like youknow, he's off riding these
motorcycles all the time and Iwas like you know what?
I'm not a motorcycle gal.
But I got me a little monkeybike and I was like, okay, you
know what, maybe we could dothis together, maybe this is a
way for me to have a sharedhobby.
(01:03:23):
You know, well, I exactly havea shared hobby.
So my daughter she was, I don'tknow, 13, 14 at the time, and
she had a little friend over andthey were watching anxiously
from window in the house and Ihad the monkey bike.
(01:03:44):
And now, honestly, amanda, Ihave to admit and I have to
admit to the audience andthere's going to be some
judgment here but I don't knowhow to ride a bicycle.
Okay, I'm so sorry.
When I was 10 years old, I hada bike and I sold it so I could
get a clarinet.
And that is the nerd that I amand there's no forgiveness for
that.
It's just who I am.
Okay, so your girl doesn't evenknow how to ride a bike,
(01:04:06):
bicycle.
But I'm going to learn how toride a motorcycle because you
know I'm game.
Well for sure, I like a bit ofthrills.
You know, I'm like maybe wecould, you know, blow my wig off
on the road and just enjoy,right?
So so I've got this a monkeybike.
For those of you who don't know, it's like a, a smaller honda
bike.
I mean it's like what?
(01:04:26):
1.5 liter, like nota, big deal,like.
I thought it was a goodbeginner situation.
So here I am husband at the time, super anal about his bike and
all the you.
You know, nobody must scratchit, whatever.
He's giving me my first lessonand I'm like on the side of our
backyard and so he says do this,do that and do the other.
(01:04:49):
So there I go, and next thing,you know, I didn't even go 50
feet I went and then the thingreared up on the back wheel this
is the first time I've everridden a bike in the last time
and basically smashed into atree, at which point I come off,
(01:05:09):
and it wasn't a big tree, itwas a little tree and she's not
okay.
The little tree is not okay.
I was going to say is she stillwith us?
Neither was my foot.
The tree is no, she's notlooking so great.
Um.
So I come flying off mydaughter's filming me for some
tickety talk thing and laughingher butt off.
(01:05:31):
And uh, my ex-husband isgesticulating in the yard and
chasing the bike which has goneoff without me on it and he's
like, oh my God, you scratchedthe whatever.
And I'm totally stunned and Ijust limp off like ashamedly
into the house.
Well, apparently I didsomething called whiskey
(01:05:52):
throttle, where you know youpull on the gas and then if you
do that and you step on thethrottle at the same, see, I
don't even know what it is thatI did, but whatever I did was
like telling it to do its worstand just like rocket fuel me
into the tree.
So I did the worst thing Icould possibly do and I went 50
(01:06:13):
feet and that is my entiremotorcycle career.
So I'm in the house going.
I don't feel so great.
Not only my pride, but my footis really hurting.
Uh, daughter stops laughing.
Um, mom, are you okay?
You know ex-husband comes aroundlike well, you know it's, it's
minorly scratched.
I think we're going to be good.
And I'm like I don't think I'mgoing to be good.
(01:06:34):
So we go to the emergency roomand, sure enough, I've shattered
my foot and, long story be told, six months later I've got a
metal rod in my foot, in mytrigger foot, and so my
motorcycle career is over and Ican't wear stiletto heels
anymore.
Not that I was trip trappingaround with those, but, like you
(01:06:58):
know, when you get a metal rodin your big toe you can't really
do that anymore.
So that was my medical mishap.
But also I don't have to worryabout trying to be a motorcycle
rider anymore.
So here we go, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
And then after that she got to ride one of those
little scooters after you gotfoot surgery.
Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
One of those nerdy things where you put your knee
on you know what.
That was worse than riding amotorcycle.
I just ended up.
Nah, you looked so cool.
Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Hated it.
It was in the cold months thatyou had your surgery too, wasn't
it yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
yeah, because I tried to ignore the fact that this
thing was really hurting and Icouldn't walk on it.
And, uh, I got tired of theboot.
And then eventually, mypodiatrist said you know what,
lady, we can fix it.
We just need to bypass yourjoint, your your fractured joint
, with an actual piece of metal.
And, um, so I said, okay, cool,I don't, I'm a tall girl, I
(01:07:53):
don't need to wear stilettos,let's do it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
So, yeah, well, thank you for sharing about your
motorcycle career.
I have never tried to drive one, and probably will never.
Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
I know you haven't because you said drive and I
don't think they say that.
Oh, say that you drive amotorcycle ride?
Well, aren't you driving it,sally?
Don't know, I don't think it'sa driving a motorcycle, I think
it's riding but is it driving asnowmobile?
(01:08:26):
Or is it riding now?
That's where you have to be atrue minnesotan to know the
answer to whether you ride ordrive a motor, a snowmobile I
should know the answer to that,I have a snowmobile license I.
Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
I can't answer that one you know what adam knows
everything.
Stay tuned, we'll ask adam.
So what do we have coming upnext week?
Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
well, next week we have a story about a felonious
phlebotomist.
Say that 10 times oh yeah,that's a shock.
Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Yeah, oh, dang yeah, you don't want to miss it but
okay, I'll be there and youbetter be.
Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Until then, don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or follow doctoringthe truth wherever you enjoy
your podcasts for stories thatshock, intrigue and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at
doctoringthetruthatbuzzsproutcom, or email us your own medical
mishaps and comments atdoctoringthetruthatgmail.
(01:09:26):
Be sure to follow us onInstagram at
doctoringthetruthpodcast, and onFacebook at doctoringthetruth.
We're on TikTok atdoctoringthetruth and edodpod.
That's E-D-A-U-D-P-O-D.
Don't forget to download, rateand review.
We need your ratings.
Please just give us those fivestars and a little little itty
bitty comment.
(01:09:47):
That would mean so much to us.
Be sure.
That way, we'll be sure tobring you more content next week
.
Until then, stay suspicious.
Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Bye goodbye, we gotta go see if Taylor releases an
album let's hope so.
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