November 28, 2025 • 63 mins
A snowstorm, a noisy house full of pets, and then a hard turn into a story that still shakes the walls of medicine and justice: Ruby McCollum. We walk through Ruby’s path from a disciplined childhood in segregated Florida to a marriage that brought visibility and risk through the Bolita economy. When a respected physician blurred professional lines and used social power to control her body, Ruby learned to live in two worlds—outward composure and private calculation. Years later, a single moment in a doctor’s office revealed the truth no one with power wanted to face.
Stick around for a listener medical mishap that adds levity without losing sight of the stakes. If this story moved you, share it with a friend, follow the show, and leave a review—your support helps more people find conversations that challenge power and champion dignity.
Sources:
- Thompson-Miller, Ruth. “The Trial of Ruby McCollum: The Consequences of Trauma: Segregation Stress Syndrome.” Journal of Community Medicine & Health Education 7, no. 7 (2017): Article.
- Lynn, Denise. “Silencing Black Women in the White Courtroom: The Case of Ruby McCollum.” African American Intellectual History Society (AAIHS), February 6, 2019.
- Link: AAIHS article AAIHS
- Adekunle, Toluwani E. “Reproductive Coercion, Medical Mistrust, and Black Women’s Health from the Antebellum Period to the 21st Century.” International Journal for Equity in Health 24 (2025).
- Link: PubMed / NIH PMC PMC+1
- H
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (01:25):
Amanda.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
That was very coded of like the cha cha cha chia.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
I know.
I was like, it's either chia oroh god, there was a song.
Okay, well, anyway, I won't gothere.
How are you?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Oh, let's talk about you.
How are you?
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Let's talk about me.
Well, okay, so today is thefirst snowfall.
Like significant snowfall.
And me being up north,Minnesota, you know, we've got a
good six to eight inchesalready, and it's still going.
But the problem is the wind.
So I have like a 12-minutecommute, which is not a commute
(02:13):
under normal circumstances.
But when it's a two-lane highwaywith a steep ditch and a lake on
either side, and nostreetlights, and the wind
blowing the snow, so you don'tknow where you're going, it's a
little hair-raising, a littlebutt clenching, I will say.
So uh instead of 15 minutes, ittook me 40 to get home.
(02:38):
So thank goodness I was luckyenough to find a place to rent
that's this close to where Iwork.
So yay.
But I do have to say correctionsection ahead of time.
Have we ever done that?
Like a proactive correction.
There are going to be yeah,there are going to be tweets and
(03:02):
clickety clacks, potentiallybarks and squeak dog toy
squeaks.
For toys that I haven't realizedthat I needed to confiscate.
Because since this isThanksgiving week, my daughter
is up here with me with two dogsand a parrot.
So and in our small littleplace.
So apologies to the pants.
SPEAKER_02 (03:23):
I was like, pre-corrections section?
What?
And I was like, I don't know.
We have corrections.
What happened?
Oh, okay, I get it.
It's a pre-apology for animalclickety-clacks.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
And squeaks and whatnot.
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
And and all the things, all the noises that come
with having animals.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
But you know what's great about having my Corgi and
my Chihuahua here this week?
Everything.
Well, and guess what they loveto do?
Snuggle.
What do we no?
Guess well, that too.
But guess what we've what I'vebeen complaining about the last
two episodes?
The ladybugs.
Guess what they like about theladybugs?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
They like to eat them?
No way.
It's so gross.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
But especially the chihuahua, she likes to like
wrangle them all in a pile andthen put them in her kill zone
and she just eats them.
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
Okay, I hate that, but also love them for you.
Like such a longer conversationabout the ladybug situation
before recording last week.
And I was telling my parentsabout it when they were here
last weekend.
And I was like, no, I'll justplay the beginning of the pod
for you.
(04:38):
And then I was like, oh no, thatdidn't even touch half of it.
So I had to like tell them mydad was like, Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
So gross.
And then my daughter, who thisis her first time up here seeing
where I'm, you know, parkedduring the week for work.
And she's like, if you she's areally great baker, and she's
already basically won over allthe nursing station because she
made these fantastic chocolatechip and Reese's Christmas tree
(05:08):
cookies with like salted stuffon top.
Oh my god.
So they're like, Well, if thisis your daughter, you must be
okay.
I was like, Thanks, Sabanna.
If you're like, Thank you somuch, Sabanna.
But mom, if you smell a weird,like a weird, unfamiliar smell
when you turn the stove on, thestovetop.
So it's an old-fashionedelectric stove with the coils,
(05:31):
you know, the heat up.
It's because of ladybugs.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (05:40):
You know what?
It has snowed now, so theladybugs should cease, plus the
animals helping you out.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
So I hope this is the last time I have to bring
this up.
Speaking of banter and whatnot,we I attended this most
beautiful baby shower with amost glowing, beautiful mama and
excellent uh last weekend, andit was wonderful to see you.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
So it was so good to see you in person too.
Miss you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
I miss you too.
Okay, there's a ladybug on myscript.
Get off.
Goodbye.
You know it's snowing outside.
How are they?
How am I gonna tell them?
This is done now.
You guys should be what are theyhibernate?
They should be hibernate.
I don't know.
Hopefully they just uh good,yeah.
Go we're all right.
(06:31):
Go to the body lesson, right?
All right, well, um, did we havea correction for last week?
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
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Murders?
No.
Oh gosh, okay.
Well, that's not medical, but Iwas gonna say, is it medically
at all?
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
Yeah, tragic.
But anyway, into their primarycare religiously, and that's how
it ties in.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
No, no, no.
It was a murderous employee ofanother employee.
So nothing to do with Lululemon,but tragic.
Anyway, so built from the chiefdesign officer's experience as a
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(07:45):
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and ultra-flattering fit.
So stay tuned.
Yay! So today I really don'thave any trigger warnings.
I mean, I suppose sexualharassment um would be one, but
(09:26):
my resources for this episodeare going to be listed on the
show notes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:35):
I just noticed this is 19 pages.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
19.
Is a girl tired when she'spregnant and it's late of an
evening?
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
I would be tired even if I wasn't pregnant
because it's 7.08 p.m.
But I was just like, holy guac.
You guys, for reference, if minegets over like nine pages, I'm
like, it should be a two-parterfor me.
Jenna comes in with like 13 to19 pages.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Listen, I'm gonna some of it's fluff.
I'll talk fast.
The margins are narrow.
It's good.
We'll be all right.
We're gonna talk about RubyJackson.
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
Ooh, Ruby I don't know why I sounded so excited.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
I don't know who you should be excited.
She's wonderful.
You'll love her.
SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
I mean, I am excited, but I said it like I
know who Ruby is and I don't.
So please tell me.
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Ruby?
I'm glad you asked.
She was born in 1909 in Zuberg,Florida, into a family that
valued education, self-respect,and dignity.
Her upbringing was unusual forthe time and place.
While most black families inrural Florida struggled to
achieve basic literacy under JimCrow law, Ruby's parents placed
(10:46):
great importance on schoolingand the cultivation of
intellect.
They encouraged their childrento read widely and engage in
careful speech and carrythemselves with a sense of
purpose and poise.
I mean, that's beautiful, isn'tit?
Especially since they were in asociety that would not always
respect their humanity, which isdisgusting, but true.
(11:08):
So these lessons that they weretaught were essential for
survival.
It was a world defined by racialhierarchy where the law and
custom worked against them atevery turn.
The ability to navigate socialspaces with intelligence and
grace would mean the differencebetween safety and
vulnerability.
From a young age, Ruby exhibiteda sharp mind and keen awareness
(11:30):
of the social structures aroundher.
She learned earlier that theworld of adults was rigid,
stratified, and unforgiving.
The southern town she grew up inwas a microcosm of the broader
racialized society.
White men wieldeddisproportionate power, shocker,
and their authority extendedinto every institution, law
enforcement, courts, schools,and medical facilities.
(11:53):
For a black girl, knowledge andcomportment were protective
tools, but they couldn't shieldone from the more intimate forms
of coercion that often wentunrecorded in public life.
Ruby's childhood awareness ofhierarchy and power would serve
her well, but it alsoforeshadowed the painful
negotiations she would have tonavigate as an adult.
(12:15):
Ruby married Sam McCollum, a manwhose charisma and ambition
would eventually place thefamily at the center of Live
Oaks' social and economicactivity.
Sam became a prominent figure inthe local Bolita gambling
network.
And Bolita is an undergroundlottery system common in
Florida's black communities.
(12:37):
While it allowed the McCollum'sa measure of economic
independence unusual for blackfamilies in the region, it also
attracted scrutiny from whiteauthorities and created
opportunities for exploitation.
The financial resources thatRuby helped manage were a rare
advantage, and they afforded hersome leverage in navigating her
environment.
But in a town defined by strictsocial and racial hierarchies,
(13:00):
even financial independencecould not guarantee autonomy.
My oak itself was a study incontradictions.
Its streets and architecturewere calm and orderly, but
beneath the surface, socialcontrol was absolute.
White men, like Dr.
Clifford Leroy Adams, dominatedthe medical, political, and
(13:21):
social arenas.
Dr.
Adams was a physician ofconsiderable skill and a man of
political ambition, laterelected to the state
legislature.
To the public, he was arespected family man, a civic
leader and a professionalauthority whose reputation
extended throughout the county.
But beyond the veneer ofrespectability lay a pattern of
(13:41):
coercion and exploitation,particularly towards black
women.
Adams, like many men in hisposition of unchecked power
during the era, acted on theassumption that his social
status granted him rights overwomen in his community.
Rights that extended beyondfriendship, professional care,
or social acquaintance, if youknow what I mean.
(14:05):
By the way, when I said Adams, Iwas like, it's not Adam, because
your husband is lovely.
So this is Dr.
Adams just pointing that out.
Couldn't be like night and day.
Okay.
So Ruby's first interactionswith Dr.
Adams were framed by these powerdynamics.
What might have appeared as aroot as routine medical care was
(14:27):
in practice a mechanism throughwhich he asserted control.
He delivered one of herchildren, he treated her for
minor ailments, and consultedwith her in ways that would seem
innocuous to a casual observer,but with the dynamics of race,
gender, and power, theseinteractions were coercive by
their very nature.
According to later accounts,Ruby experienced repeated
(14:48):
advances, visits, and demandsthat placed her in a position
where refusal was dangerous, ifnot impossible.
In a society where legalrecourse for black women was
virtually nonexistent, Ruby'sconsent was effectively
nullified, and the boundaries ofprofessional ethics were
routinely violated by Dr.
Adams.
I hate this.
(15:10):
I hate this too.
I hate this so much.
By the early 1940s, Ruby's lifehad become increasingly
constrained by the social andsexual pressures imposed by Dr.
Adams.
She bore multiple children, andone of whom, widely believed by
her community to be fathered byDr.
Adams, embodied the coercive andintimate control that he exerted
(15:34):
over her.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
Do we know is her husband, Sam, the same race as
her?
Is that why there wasspeculation?
I guess I'm just oh yeah, weknow that she's saying that.
Yeah, her husband was black.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, I love this.
Ruby.
I know, poor Ruby.
So the situation was compoundedby the expectations that were
placed upon her as a marriedwoman, as a black woman, and as
a mother.
Her husband Sam, while he wasinfluential and wealthy,
couldn't protect her from theabuses that she endured because
(16:08):
he was black.
Ruby's reproductive, not justbecause he was black, but also
because he wasn't, you know, aphysician.
He didn't and he didn't have ahave political stature, you
know.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
All those reasons.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
But it sounds like he knew this was happening.
Oh, how horrible for them as acouple.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
So Ruby's reproductive autonomy was
systematically undermined.
Her body was a site ofcontestation between her own
will and the demands of anentrenched social hierarchy.
This period of her lifeillustrates not only the
personal trauma that sheexperienced, which I can't
imagine, but also the broadersocietal forces that enabled and
(16:52):
concealed sexual exploitationwithin Jim Crow, Florida.
The pressure Ruby faced was notmerely personal, it was
structural.
In addition to sexual coercion,she navigated the complex
networks of economic and socialsurveillance that characterized
her community.
The McCollum's involvement inthe Belita gambling operation
placed them in proximity towealth and influence, but it
(17:14):
also made them subject toscrutiny by the law enforcement
and the white elite.
Their independence andvisibility disrupted the
expected social order, whichheightened the tension between
Ruby's agency and the mechanismsof control around her.
The dynamics of coercion weretherefore multifaceted,
intertwining personal, economic,and racialized forms of power in
(17:35):
ways that left Ruby with limitedoptions for resistance.
Accounts collected byjournalists and historians
indicate that Ruby's attempt toresist Dr.
Adams' control were constrainedby fear, shame, and the
potential repercussions for herfamily, of course.
When she confided in friends orneighbors, her disclosures were
(17:57):
cautious, fragmentary, andindirect.
It was an adaptive strategy in asociety where speaking openly
could have fatal consequences.
Her awareness of the threatposed by Dr.
Adams was acute.
She understood that in a legalsystem designed to privilege
white men, her voice would bemarginalized and her experience
likely dismissed.
(18:18):
These constraints created anenvironment in which Ruby's
options were so limited andevery decision carried potential
consequences, not only forherself but her children and her
husband.
So her early encounters with Dr.
Adams combined with hernavigation of the social and
economic networks of Live Oak,illustrate the intersecting
(18:41):
pressures that shaped her life.
She was a participant in and avictim of a complex power
dynamic where race, gender, andclass intersected to limit her
autonomy.
Her story at this stage is oneof survival within constraints,
an ongoing negotiation of risk,and the careful balancing of
personal agency against systemicoppression.
(19:02):
Her intelligence, dignity, andresourcefulness were essential
tools in managing thesepressures, but they couldn't
eliminate the coercive forcesthat defined her interactions
with Adams and the broadersocial hierarchy of Live Oak.
So, as we said, their theirMcCollum's financial
independence offered someprotection, but it also
(19:22):
intensified the scrutiny.
It kind of put the spotlight onthem because Sam, her husband's
position within the Bolitanetwork was providing wealth
that other black familiescouldn't access and positioned
the family as an anomaly withinthis segregate, segregated town.
So the wealth and the visibilitymade Ruby vulnerable to
manipulation by Adams and morecapable of resistance in some
(19:46):
subtle ways.
So her ability to navigate thetensions demonstrates that she
was so intelligent and aware,but also underscores the limited
avenues for meaningful autonomyavailable to these women in the
Jim Crow South.
So her early adult life ismarked by this delicate tension
between agency and constraint,resilience and vulnerability.
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
Are you going to tell us about this Jim Crow
thing?
Because I don't know what thatis.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Basically, the the segregation era where, you know,
the law was that, you know,blacks and whites should not
mingle.
They should not go to the sameschool.
They should you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
I feel a little embarrassed.
I don't know what that is.
But if anyone else also didn'tknow what that was, you're
welcome.
No question is dumb question.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
And that's probably not the best.
Like I we could do a wholeepisode on Jim Crow, and I
probably didn't describe it.
I'm not trying to be flippantabout it, but it was just a
terrible time that reallyemphasized the lack of rights
that the black community had.
By the time Merby reached herearly 40s, she lived through a
decade of sustained coercion andcomplex social negotiation and
(20:54):
economic management within thisracial and stratified
environment.
So the pressures of theseexperiences created an
environment in which hereventual actions, though legally
framed as murder, spoiler alert,oh must be understood within a
broader context of systemicoppression.
So Ruby's story at thisjuncture, she's in her 40s, is
(21:16):
one of the constrained, a personwith constrained agency, someone
who was desperate to survive andpresent a moral imperative.
And also negotiate her power ina dis in a society that was
designed to suppress her voice.
So as we talked about, thepressures on Ruby McCollum in
(21:37):
the 1940s were progressing andprogressing, and Dr.
Adams' demands were morefrequent and more invasive.
So at one point theirinteractions might have seemed
limited to professional care,but they evolved into a dynamic
in which she had little abilityto assert control to the point
where obviously, you know, shewas having his child.
According to oral historiescollected decades later, Ruby's
(22:00):
visits to Dr.
Adams' office were fraught withtension and fear.
She learned to navigate hisdemands with precision.
She was careful not to provokehim, but simultaneously tried to
protect her family and her ownsense of self.
Every trip to his office carriedthe unspoken threat that if she
refused him or defied him, itwould have devastating
consequences on her or herfamily.
(22:23):
So during this period, Ruby gavebirth to several children, and
one, Loretta McCollum, is widelyunderstood to have been fathered
by Dr.
Adams.
The circumstances surroundingthis child revealed the
intersection of sexual coercionand reproductive control due to
her gender and race.
She had no meaningful recourse.
(22:45):
Black women were denied legalprotections, so she had no
bodily autonomy.
And even if she sought toconfront Dr.
Adams, the social and politicalstructures ensured that any
attempt at accountability wouldhave been futile or even
dangerous.
Meanwhile, Ruby and Sam had tomanage a local Bolita operation,
(23:05):
which again, as we mentioned,created a precarious balance
between independence andvulnerability.
So they were worried thatauthorities would threaten
exposure or legal action ifanything were to happen,
especially if she were to, youknow, push back against Dr.
Adams, or just that white eliteswould manipulate the family's
(23:26):
wealth to exert control over thefamily.
So Rudy seemed to understandthis delicate equilibrium.
She was very, very careful andwithin this context developed
coping strategies.
She maintained a careful facadeof compliance in public and
medical settings whileinternally trying to manage her
fear, anger, and moral tension.
(23:47):
Her intelligence allowed her tonavigate the demands placed on
her, but it made her acutelyaware of the limitations of her
abilities and her power.
So observers like Zora NeilHurston, author, noted Ruby's
outward calm and measured speechduring early interviews and
hearings, emphasizing thecontrast between her composed
(24:08):
demeanor and the intensepsychological pressures that she
faced.
This juxtaposition underscoredthe complexity of her
experience.
She was outwardly orderly andcompliant, but inside she was
navigating a constant state ofturmoil between coercion and
threat.
The burden of maintaining herfamily's safety weighed heavily
on her.
(24:28):
She was deeply aware that anydisruption to this delicate
balance would inviteretaliation, but at the same
time, she had the psychologicalburden of repeated sexual
coercion, and that's a nice wayof putting rape and the
realities of living in a societythat expected her not to
protest.
Her position was compounded byher role as a mother.
(24:50):
Protecting her kids fromexposure to Dr.
Adams became an imperative.
It shaped her decisions andconstrained her options.
Every pregnancy, every visit toDr.
Adams, and every interactionwith the broader community was
infused with a risk and the needfor strategic thinking.
Her life at this stage wasdefined by constant calculation.
How do I comply?
(25:11):
How do I survive?
How do I maintain dignity in aworld that systematically sought
to strip me of it?
By the late 1940s and early1950s, things reached a critical
point.
She had had enough.
She was tired of the legal andsocial mechanisms that protected
her abuser.
So she began to explore moredecisive actions, but always
(25:35):
tempered by the knowledge ofpotential consequences.
In August 1952, these pressuresculminated in a single
transformative act.
Ruby carried a small caliberpistol to Dr.
Adams' office.
The choice to bring a weapon wasnot impulsive.
It was a result of years ofstrategic calculation in an
(25:56):
environment where traditionalavenues of protection and
justice were not available toher.
The shooting itself was swift.
There were four bullets fired,one striking Adams in the chest
and ending his life.
Observers later described Rubyas composed, almost attached.
It was a demeanor shaped byyears of coping with this and
(26:17):
his coercion and threat andabuse.
So her actions weren'tcharacterized by emotionless
malice, but it was from profoundcalculated response to years
worth of exploitation.
You can imagine the aftermath ofthe shooting was quite
something, and it definitelyrevealed the stark inequities of
justice and media representationin this racist South at the
(26:41):
time.
Local authorities respondedpromptly, framing the event in
neutral and racially codedterms.
Newspapers described the killingas an act of an unstable black
woman while suppressing thecritical context of Dr.
Adams' nefarious deeds.
The white press erased Ruby'slived experience and the
systemic oppression thatprecipitated her act by
(27:02):
presenting a narrative thatserved the social hierarchy
rather than the truth.
By contrast, the black press,including the Pittsburgh
Courier, highlighted thecoercion and social constraints
that shaped her life and offereda more nuanced account of her
actions and circumstances.
Author Zora Neil Hurston'sreporting brought attention to
(27:24):
Ruby's condition during thehearings.
Hurston observed that Ruby hadbeen heavily sedated and
medicated prior to hertestimony, and she highlighted
the ways in which her mentalstate was manipulated to portray
instability.
(27:45):
These dynamics reflected thebroader societal patterns in
which black women's voices wereundermined, particularly when
they challenged white authorityor social norms.
So the trial itself exemplifiedthe intersection of race,
gender, and power in mid-centurySouthern justice.
Ruby's defense faced formidableobstacles.
(28:06):
The jury was all white and allmale.
Can you imagine?
No.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
I wouldn't even want that for me now.
SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
No, no, ever.
There's no diversity or, youknow, chance for an opinion that
might not be homogenous, youknow?
The judge systematicallyexcluded testimony regarding Dr.
Adams' coercion, rape, andphysical abuse, and instead used
psychiatric evaluations thatwere framed to cast doubt on
(28:38):
Ruby's credibility.
Every attempt to introducecontext that could explain her
motivations was met with censureor suppression.
The legal system operated notmerely to adjudicate the
killing, but to preserve thesocial hierarchy, protect the
reputation of white authorityfigures, and silence
inconvenient truths aboutracialized sexual exploitation.
(29:02):
He's a bloody rapist.
Yeah.
You guys.
So Ruby's defense attempted toframe her actions within the
broader context of the abuse andcoercion, but the prosecution
reduced her complex experienceto a simplistic narrative of
premeditated murder.
Witnesses were instructed toemphasize her alleged
(29:22):
instability rather than thethreat she'd endured.
And the court proceedings, asHurston noted, resembled a
performance scripted to upholdsocietal norms and protect the
entrenched power rather than agenuine attempt to deliver
justice.
What a surprise.
Ruby's story, the coercion, therape, the reproductive
exploitation, the years of fearwas excluded from the official
(29:45):
record.
So how is this justice?
In the weeks following thetrial, public perception of Ruby
was shaped by the media, whichstill happens today.
The white press emphasizedhysteria.
She's a woman, she's hysterical,instability, moral failing.
You know, how dare you getpregnant when you're raped by
(30:08):
your doctor?
While downplaying or ignoringthe coercion that led to the
shooting.
Meanwhile, the black press andcommunity advocates sought to
contextualize her actions,highlighting the systemic
pressures that she faced, theabuse she suffered, and the
courage it took for her to actin defense of her dignity and
her children's safety.
So this bifurcation of narrativeunderscores the broader societal
(30:29):
failure to recognize blackwomen's agency and the selective
application of justice in theJim Crow South at the time.
Her case also illuminates thegendered dimensions of systemic
oppression.
Her experiences show how blackwomen were rendered vulnerable
not only by racialized powerstructures, but by gendered
expectations of compliance andpropriety.
(30:52):
The combination of Dr.
Adams' professional authority,political influence, and social
status created conditions inwhich she was not allowed to
refuse.
That was not an option.
And the consequences of anyresistance would be
catastrophic, as she knew.
So her calculated actions mustbe understood as both a personal
response to this and a challengeto entrenched social norms that
(31:15):
sought to control black women'sbodies and choices.
And with this very profound andimportant and serious note.
Going to go to our section.
Welcome to the chart note wherewe learn about what's happening
(31:37):
in medicine and healthcare.
So, given that we're talkingabout Ruby McCollin's story,
we're gonna fast forward from1952 to 2025 where we still see
the lingering shadows ofhistoric injustices,
particularly in how blackmaternal health outcomes remain
alarmingly unequal.
(31:59):
Right now, did you know thatblack women in the U.S.
are two to four times morelikely than white women to
suffer serious pregnancycomplications?
Everything from preeclampsia andgestational diabetes to
postpartum hemorrhage and evenmaternal death, their babies are
almost more than twice as likelyto die in the first year of
life.
(32:19):
And these disparities aren'tsimply due to biology, they
reflect a web of systemicproblems, under-resourced
clinics, implicit bias inclinical care, gaps in insurance
coverage, and long-standingdistrust of medical
institutions.
But likely for good reasons.
A powerful new report from theMcKinsey Institute published in
(32:40):
2025 underscores just how muchis at stake.
Closing the black maternalhealth gap could restore 350,000
healthy life years among blackmothers and infants.
Economically, that translatesinto an estimated$24.4 billion
boost to the US economy throughfewer avoidable health programs,
(33:05):
higher workforce participation,and lower long-term medical
costs.
Even scaling back unnecessaryC-sections, which is a frequent
intervention, could savehundreds of millions of dollars
every year.
So what is changing?
How are people pushing back?
Well, there's a renewed focus oncommunity-based and culturally
(33:26):
grounded care.
Doula's midwives and birthingcenters that are rooted in black
communities are gainingtraction.
These are care models thatemphasize trust, respect, and
personalized support.
Exactly the kind of patientclinician relationship that Ruby
was denied.
And second, policymakers arestepping up.
Advocates that are are pushingto extend insurance coverage
(33:47):
farther into the postpartumperiod because many
complications emerge after birthwhen too many new mothers are
left uninsured orunder-supported.
There's also growing momentum toincrease funding for maternal
health in historicallyunderserved areas, especially
what we call deserts, maternitycare deserts.
So it's like an area that isjust the resources are too
(34:11):
they're not in the community,they're they're far away.
Third, medical education isevolving.
Hospitals and training programsare increasingly embedding
anti-biased training inhistorical context into
curriculum.
Physicians and nurses are beingtaught to recognize how racism
and sexism have shaped medicalpractice and how to dismantle
(34:32):
those harmful patterns goingforward.
Fourth, data is playing acentral role.
Health systems are investing inmetrics that track racial
disparities in outcomes likepreeclampsia, hemorrhage, and
maternal readmissions.
By shining a light on thesegaps, providers can target
interventions more precisely andhold themselves accountable.
Fifth, technology is beingleveraged thoughtfully.
(34:55):
Some advocacy groups are workingon resource allocation tools to
direct reproductive healthsupport where it's needed the
most.
Meanwhile, telehealth and mobilehealth programs are being
designed with equity in mind,ensuring that black birthing
people can access reliableprenatal and postpartum care
regardless of geography.
All of this matters deeply inlight of Ruby McCollum's legacy.
(35:18):
Her life was a powerful exampleof what happens when a medical
system dehumanizes and controlsa black woman's body.
Today, the movement to improveblack maternal health is an
effort to repair those harms, torestore agency, dignity, and
access that Ruby was denied.
This takeaway is urgent andhopeful.
Closing the black maternalhealth gap isn't just about
(35:41):
better statistics, it's aboutjustice.
It requires structural change,accountability, and
community-led solutions.
Ruby McCollum's story reminds uswhy this work matters and the
slow but growing progress showsthat the fight for reproductive
reproductive equity continues.
Back to the story.
By the time Ruby was sentenced,the systemic pressures that she
(36:03):
had endured had shaped everyaspect of her life.
Her death sentence was later Iknow, was later committed
through a plea agreement.
But this was just as much areflection of societal fear of
black female agency as it was aresponse to the shooting itself.
The legal and institutionalresponses to her actions
illustrate how societalstructures of power prioritize
(36:25):
the protection of entrenchedauthority over the recognition
of systemic injustice.
So the trial of Ruby in 1952became a flashpoint not only for
the town of Live Oak, but forthe nation's understanding of
race, gender, and justice.
From the outset, the proceedingswere steeped in inequities that
defined Ruby's life.
The courtroom itself wasemblematic of segregation and
(36:47):
inequality that all-white, allmale jury presided over the
case, which was a configurationthat virtually guaranteed the
verdict that she received.
Every procedural decision by thejudge was designed to
marginalize Ruby's voice anddiminish the relevance of her
lived experience and preservethe social authority of Dr.
(37:07):
Adams, the white man whose deathhad catalyzed the trial.
Defense attorneys attempted fromthe beginning to frame Ruby's
actions within the context ofher abuse, coercion, and
psychological duress.
They sought to prevent topresent evidence regarding Dr.
Adams' sexual abuse, uh, rape,coerce pregnancy, and
(37:28):
psychological toll that theseviolations said exacted on her.
They argued that her actionswere not the full result or were
not the result of cold-bloodedpremeditation and isolation, but
it was a response of years ofliving under fear, intimidation,
and threat.
But their attempts wererepeatedly blocked.
There were many objections fromthe prosecution, and the judge
(37:51):
ruled systematically, excludingtestimony that would actually
illuminate Ruby's lived reality.
And then the use of psychiatrictestimony further complicated
the proceeding proceedings.
Experts testified regarding hermental state, often emphasizing
that she was unstable,emotionally fragile, blah blah
(38:14):
blah.
We've heard this before.
Yeah.
In defense, Ruby's team soughtto introduce evidence of broader
social and economic pressures.
The fact that her familyparticipated in the Bolita
network, her attempts to protecther children, and the general
(38:34):
threat posed by these racialhierarchies should be relevant
to they posed to understandingher actions, but the judge
didn't care.
Similarly, the media coveragewould depend whether you were a
black newspaper or a whitenewspaper.
Language choices, words likeNegro woman, hysterical woman,
(38:56):
worked to dehumanize her on thewhite newspaper route, whereas
the black reports emphasized howshe was coerced and abused and
pressured, and how this uhunderscores the ways in which
she was uh, you know, basicallyset up to fail.
She had no recourse.
So, despite the efforts of herdefense and any a few
(39:20):
sympathetic journalists, thejury deliberated for only 90
minutes before they returned averdict of first-degree murder.
And Ruby was sentenced to deathby electric chair.
So, before this could be carriedout, the state intervened and
committed her to the FloridaState Hospital in Chattahoochee
under the pretext of psychiatricinstability.
(39:42):
So this institutionalizationserved multiple purposes.
It silenced Ruby, it removed herfrom public view, and it allowed
the state to avoid addressingthe problem, which was the
systemic, which was the systemicexploitation that had
precipitated her actions in thefirst place.
Her confinement was just onemore example of how legal and
(40:04):
medical institutions couldreinforce these aberrant social
hierarchies and margin, continueto marginalize individuals.
So inside the hospital, Ruby'sexperience was marked by intense
medical intervention.
She was heavily medicated.
She was subject to treatmentsthat were designed to suppress
her behavior.
(40:25):
They gave her sedatives,electriconvulsive therapy, and
other interventions that werejust basically torture and form
of control.
This effectively attempted toerase her voice within the
institution and reflected howblack women's experiences were
invalidated, pathologized, andcontrolled so that we can
(40:47):
maintain the order of whiteauthority.
During this period, journalistsand scholars started to
reconstruct her story,preserving fragments of her
experience and starting tocontextualize the legal, social,
and psychological dimensions ofher life.
Zora Neil Hurston, inparticular, conducted many
interviews that emphasizedRuby's awareness, intelligence,
(41:09):
and strategic thinking.
She noted the subtle ways inwhich Ruby navigated power and
managed to stay composed underduress and protect her family.
The broader implications of hercase were increasingly apparent
as her story began to circulateagain.
Scholars picked it up andstarted examining the
(41:30):
intersection of race, gender,and legal authority in Ruby's
case.
And the McCollum case emerged asan early illustration of what
would later be framed asreproductive coercion.
Unfortunately, Ruby wasinstitutionalized for decades.
She was released in the early1970s and was finally allowed to
return to her family with hervoice fractured by years of
(41:52):
enforced silence, sedation, andsocial erasure.
But even after release, herstory continued to resonate, and
it challenged legal scholars,historians, and cultural
analysts to confront thecomplexities of power, coercion,
and systemic injustice.
She is the picture of theresilience required to survive
within oppressive socialcircles.
(42:16):
The institutional response toRuby's act, the combination of
legal prosecution andpsychiatric
institutionalization, alsounderscored the mechanisms by
which society controls thenarratives of resistance.
By framing her as mentallyunstable and removing her from
public life, authorities ensuredthat her story would just be
suppressed.
But thanks to I mean the media,the media has its purpose.
(42:40):
So thanks to these persistentjournalists that were able to
gain oral histories, accounts,and historical information about
Ruby's narrative, they were ableto offer insights and continued
to press her narrative forwardand push it into the public eye.
Ruby's reintegration into familylike life was complex.
(43:01):
She lost significant time withher family, and the
psychological effects of thesedation, the electric
convulsive therapy, andprolonged isolation left
indelible marks.
But even so, she was dignified.
She navigated a world that hadlong suppressed her, but she had
the ability to survive, adapt,and persist.
(43:21):
She is a hero, and she was ableto later in her life provide a
presence within her family thatoffered continuity and
connection, a living testamentto survival in the face of
adversity.
Ruby passed away in 1992, herlife spanning decades defined by
courage, systemic injustice, andresilience.
(43:43):
By the time of her death, herstory had been preserved in
fragments of journalisticaccounts, oral histories, and
scholarly analyses.
Then the efforts of authors ZoraNeil Hurston, William Bradford
Huey, and subsequent historiansensured that her narrative would
endure and not die.
Her story is a focal point forunderstanding the intersection
(44:05):
of race, gender, andinstitutional power in mid-20th
century America.
SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
So did she not?
I thought she was sentenced todeath by electric chair, but she
just ended up in the secondroom.
SPEAKER_01 (44:19):
The state intervened and overturned it to a life
sentence in a psychiatrichospital.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:27):
Okay.
Still, like I'm like, tragicboth outcomes, but you're just
sitting there tortured fordecades.
Did your family even get tovisit you?
If they did, do you even know,you know, that your family was
visiting you?
SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
Yeah, because she was so drugged and abused, and
yeah, she tort just beingsilent.
Right?
Elective shock therapy.
Well, you know, first of all,she's a woman, she's black, and
she had the audacity to shoother oppressor, her rapist.
So she's obviously crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
We're not gonna listen to her.
We're gonna have people like Dr.
Adams judge her.
And the fact that they took 90minutes to come back with I
mean, we're talking decades ofabuse.
Kids that she that were his, youknow.
She didn't, I mean, she tookcare of them and she loved them
as all of her other children,but she did not have any agency
(45:26):
to say, I want another child,and also I don't want it for my
rapist.
I would rather have it from achild from my husband.
Yeah.
My husband, absolutely crazy tome.
But yet it's not so sad.
It's like, oh hopefully, we'refarther ahead, but I don't know
how much farther.
SPEAKER_02 (45:44):
Well, I don't know how much farther because in your
chart note, you were like, Thisthis is 1952, and here we are in
2025, and we're still working onthese things.
SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Yeah, like there's still a lack of, but I mean,
some of it's from lack of trust,and some of it's from lack of
privilege or resources.
But the lack of trusthistorically, can you blame
them?
Like, as white people, we needto be have some humility and
some understanding about thatgenerational trauma and really
(46:15):
kind of look at that.
How do we gain trust with thepopulation that has every right
to not trust us?
And why are we still themajority in terms of the people
who have these positions ofpower?
Um, what are we doing?
I mean, I think we're doing alot, but are we doing enough to
(46:35):
ensure that we're not just equaland equitable, but we're
welcoming and embracing, youknow, the our differences.
So I you know, I mean, this isAmerica.
We're we love America, and we'reall we're all different.
So just because somebody's youknow black doesn't mean they're
(46:58):
any different, but to them,they're coming to it with this
history, generational trauma.
I keep pulling that out as a hotbuzzword, but the more I learn
about it, the more I'm yeah, themore I'm like, yeah, I mean, I
would bear that on my shoulders.
My ancestors were treated thisway, and I'm supposed to go and
just open arms, embrace that I'mgonna get an equitable and
(47:21):
welcoming opportunity, you know,with this healthcare white man
healthcare provider.
I as an example, not to pick onthe well, and especially when
the medical statistics are stillshowing that.
So some of it's trust and someof it's just access and
privilege, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (47:40):
So yeah, I mean well, honestly, go Ruby for
shooting that motherfucker.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
I don't blame I don't blame her.
I don't want to shoot him too.
But we can see how I don't know,I know you're not.
But like I'm not saying that sheshouldn't have consequences, but
I think nowadays it's that abuseBut like can he also have had a
consequence for raping over theyears.
SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
And like and you're in the position of you're
supposed to be a trusted person.
SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
I mean, it was calculated, but it exactly
worse.
So it's it's it's and and therehave been some interesting true
crime cases that have come upwith this abused or battered
woman syndrome, where it's like,okay, so if it's manslaughter,
it's done in passion of themoment, right?
But these women who have hadyears of abuse and finally just
(48:38):
had it, and it's self-defense byevery stretch of the
imagination, because they aregetting rid of their abuser,
their torturer, the person thathurts them and their family, or
worse, it's them or you know,it's it's like survival, it's
defense.
SPEAKER_02 (48:57):
And when there are no other options, because she
was in a system that set her upto fail no matter what she did.
SPEAKER_01 (49:03):
Yeah, but because it was calculated, then that can't
be manslaughter.
And so that's where this whole,well, it was self-defense, but
it was calculated.
So it's murder, but is it murderin the first degree?
I mean, do we can we maybe pullback and look at the the whole
picture?
(49:23):
And I'm not a lawyer, so if wehave any lawyers listening, but
you know, how does this work?
Could Ruby, if Ruby was 2025figure who'd undergone this now,
would things be any different?
Obviously, we'd have probablyhave a more mixed.
I was gonna say the jurydefinitely be different.
But would she be able to claim,which would be true, but claim
(49:47):
like a battered or abused womanabused person syndrome, like
self-defense?
SPEAKER_02 (49:56):
Obviously, there would be women on the jury.
Like, because yes, at the end ofthe day, you did still kill
someone and you shouldn't killanyone, killing someone is
wrong, but she had the record,like the she couldn't go to the
cops, she couldn't go toanybody.
SPEAKER_01 (50:14):
There was nobody to protect her.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (50:16):
And I'm and so I'm thinking, like, if we're placing
ourselves in 2025, what doesthat look like now?
Yeah, you know, like hopefullythere's more systems in place to
protect or stop that behavior,so it wouldn't have to come to
murder.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (50:32):
Maybe there'd be simply more healthcare providers
and and and a woman physicianthat she could go to.
And I'm also not sure how muchof this Bolitas, which seems
like a gambling operation thatmay or may not have been legal.
I'm guessing not legal if thatwas a made her vulnerable.
unknown (50:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:53):
Yeah, because they made a lot of money with that,
so they probably had to like shehad a lot of of of eggshells to
tiptoe over, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (51:04):
Well, that was a tragic tale.
Great coverage.
Thank you for sharing it.
I'd never heard of that before,and I honestly hope that someone
out there can confirm it's atleast somewhat better.
Obviously, we can't deny that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:24):
I forgot to mention one of our sponsors, Jillian
Tonnell, recommended thisepisode.
So thank you, Jillian, for yeah,no, this is important
information and it does raisesome questions that we're
important asking.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (51:43):
I just have to say this has nothing to do with the
case, but the fact that her namewas Ruby Jackson reminded me
right away of Shannon's cat,Ruby, and she met Ruby before
she was married.
So Ruby's last name might beJackson.
SPEAKER_01 (51:59):
Shannon! This is a Ruby Jackson.
Yes, and she's named after abadass.
SPEAKER_02 (52:07):
Well, right, right, you know what?
And Ruby, her cat is kind of abadass woman, too.
SPEAKER_01 (52:13):
She is, she's forced to be reckoned with.
So, but also highly spoiled.
Sorry, Shannon.
I'm just saying, well, we shouldspoil our babies, right?
Yeah, we should spoil ourbabies.
Oh, speaking of spoiling, I wasjust I'm going to have to spoil
(52:35):
myself and order some Molly Beesgourmet cookies.
They're available at MollyBZ.comand they are these artistic,
you've talked about them, smallbatch craft cookies that are
like your neighbor just madethem for you, and or in my case,
my daughter, she makes goodcookies.
(52:57):
But these cookies are they meltin your mouth, they're
high-quality ingredients withreally crazy exciting flavor
combinations and layers and allkinds of things.
So I cannot wait to try the teacookies, smooth lavender
goodness with white chocolateand delectable lemon gloves.
SPEAKER_02 (53:17):
Oh, it sounds so good.
SPEAKER_01 (53:19):
Oh my god, I'm just like and the B Cordials, perfect
blend of chocolate and cherry.
And they called Every Bite anAdventure, which I just love for
myself and anyone else eating acookie.
I'm just a cookie fiend, I'm acookie monster.
And this company is so cute.
This mom, Molly, she's fromAlaska, started a brand and it
(53:41):
became a national sensation injust three years.
So she's been featured on theFood Network, Martha Stewart
Living, and even the GrammyAwards, like girl, you've
arrived.
You're making cookies for theGrammy Awards show.
Some of her signature creationsinclude the The Cordial, which
is the milk chocolate,maraschino cherries, and
(54:02):
amaretto, the Big Joe, Big Joe,which is coffee, milk chocolate,
and rum.
I mean, who doesn't put a littlerum in their coffee of a
morning?
Wowser, boba doodles, which weresnicker, which are
snickerdoodles with boba pearls,hot mess, which got us laughing
last week.
Mango, white chocolate, and hotCheetos, baby.
(54:25):
I mean, and there's the pimicoladas have white chocolate,
coconut, and fruity pebbles.
I just love that.
That one sounds so good.
I know.
There's even one called StraightFire that has marshmallows,
chocolate, cinnamon cereal, andcinnamon whiskey.
Or if you're my dad who alwaysdoes his WHs, it would be
whiskey.
Whiskey.
(54:45):
What?
Yeah.
So listen, if you want somecookies like I do, you can find
them.
MollyB Z dot com and enjoy 10%off big just because you know
us.
So you let them know we sent youwith our code stay suspicious.
S-T-A-Y-S-U-S-P-I-C-I-O-U-S.
SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
Thank you for that.
Yay.
Okay, time for a little uhmedical mishap, shall we?
SPEAKER_01 (55:17):
It reads sorry.
Did you just say medical mispap?
That would be so funny.
I don't think so.
Oh my god, medical mispep.
SPEAKER_02 (55:30):
I don't think so.
Uh it's very possible.
And also if anyone has a medicalmispap story missed, then sorry
if that happened to you.
SPEAKER_01 (55:45):
What are you gonna do?
Sorry, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (55:47):
Okay, the email reads, Dear Jenna and Amanda,
big fan of your podcast.
I'm going to pee my pants if youread this on the pod.
Well start peeing, girl.
Or god, or whoever you are.
I'll pee with you because I'mpregnant now I have to pee all
the time.
Um I'll start by telling youthat a friend of mine, let's
(56:08):
call her Sarah, had to go to herprimary care clinic for a
routine checkup.
Nothing traumatic, just bloodpressure, weight, heart rate,
the usuals.
She had a full day plan, so sheexpected it to be quick.
But what happened was, well,memorable.
She sits down in the exam room,and a young, very eager nurse
(56:30):
comes in with a blood pressurecuff the size of a small
backpack.
We're going to make sure we getthe perfect readings today, the
nurse said.
Sarah nodded politely, thinking,okay, standard procedure.
First, the cuff was wrappedaround her upper arm, tightened,
and inflated.
The nurse left the room brieflyto grab a clipboard.
(56:52):
Then a small alarm goes off, andSarah looked down and realized
that the cuff was stillinflating and inflating and
inflating.
And by this point, it felt likeher arm was being squeezed by
hydraulic press.
And those suckers do get tight.
Yeah.
The cuff hits a level that isvery clearly not normal, and
(57:15):
Sarah starts flailing slightly,half panicked and half laughing.
The nurse rushed back in andsays, Oh, sorry, I left it in an
automatic mode.
I don't know, I'm reading itlike that, but it just seems
fitting.
Apparently, the machine had anoverzealous monitoring mode that
she forgot to disable.
(57:36):
Yeah, now the blood pressurecuff is cycling every 30
seconds, inflating and deflatingwhile Sarah tries to calm
herself, which I'm like, that isnot how I did.
Every time it tightens, sheyelps.
Each time it releases, shesighs, and the nurse apologizes
profusely but cannot stoplaughing.
(57:57):
It gets better.
The doctor arrives, noticesSarah's arm is bright red and
slightly bruised from therepeated squeezes, and says,
Wow, that's a new record.
Usually we don't get vitals thatdramatic without a marathon or a
fight with a bear.
Everyone laughs, includingSarah, though her arm is still
throbbing.
(58:18):
By the end of the visit, hervital signs are finally stable.
Well, stable enough.
And she leaves the clinic with afunny story and a newfound
respect for automatic bloodpressure cuffs.
She swears she'll neverunderestimate a piece of medical
equipment again.
The takeaway?
Even routine visits can turninto small adventures,
(58:41):
especially when enthusiasm meetstechnology.
Clinics are full of competentstaff, but human error plus
automated machines can quicklycreate a perfectly harmless yet
hilarious spectacle.
And for Sarah, it was a reminderthat human nope, human, humor is
the best companion fornavigating the strange little
(59:01):
quirks of healthcare.
Thanks again for reading this.
If you do, and keep podcastingso we can learn about the true
crime in healthcare and staysuspicious.
Love Abby.
Well, thanks, Abby, for sendingin Sarah's story.
SPEAKER_00 (59:18):
Abby, I feel bad.
Why didn't they just rip thatsucker on the street?
I know and just keep laughingand let it go up and down, up
and down, up and down.
SPEAKER_02 (59:26):
I'm like, it sounds like Sarah was also laughing,
but I definitely would haveremoved the calf.
SPEAKER_01 (59:33):
I would have been like, dude, this I've had it
inflate so much that itexplodes.
Have you ever had that?
Oh no.
Yeah, no, explodes.
By explodes, I don't mean likeruptures, but like the it pushes
the velcro open.
SPEAKER_02 (59:46):
So you can oh, sure.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (59:51):
Especially if your arm's bent.
Like if you've ever been in thehospital where they you have to
have one on your arm the wholetime and every half an hour the
thing goes off.
Yeah.
And if you have your arm likebent or whatever, then it's like
really the thing is reallystruggling to figure out what to
do with you.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
And then God forbid you take off the pulse socks for
like one second.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:15):
Oh my gosh.
Wow, that was a good one.
Listen, Amanda, it's past yourbedtime.
I kept you up because it took meforever to get home and safe.
Me too.
Oh my gosh, it was it was buttclenching to say the least.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:32):
So Jenna's still clenching her butt.
My body tumbled baby movingtrampoline.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:42):
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:44):
Oh my gosh, Thanksgiving week.
When you guys listen to this,it's going to be Black Friday
shopping if you do that.
So maybe you'll be listening tous on your way to get some good
deals.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:54):
And we could give you a pillow box if you want to
get your girls from Dr.
We're not, you know, opposed.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01:08):
Um, but what can we expect to hear next week, my
love?
Well, it's gonna be surprise.
Woohoo! Because I'm either goingto finish one of my things that
I started, one of four or five,or it'll just be like last week
where I'm Like, yeah, I'll juststare at a new one.
And I haven't decided.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:30):
Well, that leaves us all on the edge of our seats.
I can't wait till then.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01:34):
Well, until then, I hope you're all on the edge of
your seats because me too.
Don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or follow Doctoringthe Truth wherever you enjoy
your podcast for stories thatshock, intrigue, and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at doctoringthetruth at
buzzsprout.com.
Email us your own story ideasand comments at Doctoringthe
(01:01:56):
Truth at Gmail.
Sorry, I've got wickedheartburn.
And be sure to follow us onInstagram, Doctoring the Truth
Podcast, and Facebook, Doctoringthe Truth.
We're on TikTok atDoctoringTheTruth and ed oddpod
e-ud.
Don't forget to download rateand review so we can be sure to
bring you more content nextweek.
(01:02:18):
And until then, stay safe, drivesafe, and stay suspicious.
Suspicious.
Bye, bye, bye, bye.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:33):
Three, two, one.
One off.
Amanda.
SPEAKER_02 (01:31):
That was very coded of like the cha cha cha chia.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
I know.
I was like, it's either chia oroh god, there was a song.
Okay, well, anyway, I won't gothere.
How are you?
SPEAKER_02 (01:47):
Oh, let's talk about you.
How are you?
SPEAKER_01 (01:49):
Let's talk about me.
Well, okay, so today is thefirst snowfall.
Like significant snowfall.
And me being up north,Minnesota, you know, we've got a
good six to eight inchesalready, and it's still going.
But the problem is the wind.
So I have like a 12-minutecommute, which is not a commute
(02:13):
under normal circumstances.
But when it's a two-lane highwaywith a steep ditch and a lake on
either side, and nostreetlights, and the wind
blowing the snow, so you don'tknow where you're going, it's a
little hair-raising, a littlebutt clenching, I will say.
So uh instead of 15 minutes, ittook me 40 to get home.
(02:38):
So thank goodness I was luckyenough to find a place to rent
that's this close to where Iwork.
So yay.
But I do have to say correctionsection ahead of time.
Have we ever done that?
Like a proactive correction.
There are going to be yeah,there are going to be tweets and
(03:02):
clickety clacks, potentiallybarks and squeak dog toy
squeaks.
For toys that I haven't realizedthat I needed to confiscate.
Because since this isThanksgiving week, my daughter
is up here with me with two dogsand a parrot.
So and in our small littleplace.
So apologies to the pants.
SPEAKER_02 (03:23):
I was like, pre-corrections section?
What?
And I was like, I don't know.
We have corrections.
What happened?
Oh, okay, I get it.
It's a pre-apology for animalclickety-clacks.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
And squeaks and whatnot.
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
And and all the things, all the noises that come
with having animals.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
But you know what's great about having my Corgi and
my Chihuahua here this week?
Everything.
Well, and guess what they loveto do?
Snuggle.
What do we no?
Guess well, that too.
But guess what we've what I'vebeen complaining about the last
two episodes?
The ladybugs.
Guess what they like about theladybugs?
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
They like to eat them?
No way.
It's so gross.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
But especially the chihuahua, she likes to like
wrangle them all in a pile andthen put them in her kill zone
and she just eats them.
SPEAKER_02 (04:18):
Okay, I hate that, but also love them for you.
Like such a longer conversationabout the ladybug situation
before recording last week.
And I was telling my parentsabout it when they were here
last weekend.
And I was like, no, I'll justplay the beginning of the pod
for you.
(04:38):
And then I was like, oh no, thatdidn't even touch half of it.
So I had to like tell them mydad was like, Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (04:46):
So gross.
And then my daughter, who thisis her first time up here seeing
where I'm, you know, parkedduring the week for work.
And she's like, if you she's areally great baker, and she's
already basically won over allthe nursing station because she
made these fantastic chocolatechip and Reese's Christmas tree
(05:08):
cookies with like salted stuffon top.
Oh my god.
So they're like, Well, if thisis your daughter, you must be
okay.
I was like, Thanks, Sabanna.
If you're like, Thank you somuch, Sabanna.
But mom, if you smell a weird,like a weird, unfamiliar smell
when you turn the stove on, thestovetop.
So it's an old-fashionedelectric stove with the coils,
(05:31):
you know, the heat up.
It's because of ladybugs.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02 (05:40):
You know what?
It has snowed now, so theladybugs should cease, plus the
animals helping you out.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
So I hope this is the last time I have to bring
this up.
Speaking of banter and whatnot,we I attended this most
beautiful baby shower with amost glowing, beautiful mama and
excellent uh last weekend, andit was wonderful to see you.
SPEAKER_02 (06:05):
So it was so good to see you in person too.
Miss you.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
I miss you too.
Okay, there's a ladybug on myscript.
Get off.
Goodbye.
You know it's snowing outside.
How are they?
How am I gonna tell them?
This is done now.
You guys should be what are theyhibernate?
They should be hibernate.
I don't know.
Hopefully they just uh good,yeah.
Go we're all right.
(06:31):
Go to the body lesson, right?
All right, well, um, did we havea correction for last week?
I don't think so.
I don't think so.
Yeah.
So that leads me into a verynon-graceful correct uh
sponsorship.
Shout out to Tona T-O-N-AActiveware.
(06:55):
They were created by one ofLulamon Lululemon La la la la la
la la la la la There was amurder there.
Lululemon's original designers,you know about the Lululemon
murder, right?
Murders?
No.
Oh gosh, okay.
Well, that's not medical, but Iwas gonna say, is it medically
at all?
SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
Yeah, tragic.
But anyway, into their primarycare religiously, and that's how
it ties in.
SPEAKER_01 (07:22):
No, no, no.
It was a murderous employee ofanother employee.
So nothing to do with Lululemon,but tragic.
Anyway, so built from the chiefdesign officer's experience as a
competitive athlete whounderstood exactly what serious
female athletes needed.
Side note, I really wish I knewwhat serious female athletes
(07:45):
needed, but I do know a girlneeds premium black leggings.
And when they're designed for,quote, girls who gym TM, quote,
that'll be the last pair youever need.
They're made withmoisture-wicking fabric and
four-way stretch technology.
Tona leggings deliver a secure,flexible, and ultra-flattering
(08:05):
fit that moves effortlesslyeffervescently, effortlessly.
SPEAKER_02 (08:11):
This is turning out great.
With every in all the rightways.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Customers are raving, it's like a push-up bra
from my butt, said someone,which is like one of my favorite
quotes ever.
And it has a hundred percent fitand happiness guarantee.
So, you know, if you wantleggings that are the perfect
blend of style, performance, anddurability, this is the last
black legging you'll ever need.
Visit www.t-o-naactive.com for16 whole percents off your order
(08:44):
with our exclusive code staysuspicious.
And I plan to get these for Ihave a younger sister who is a
serious athlete, but she doesn'tneed a butt lift, but you know,
girls, she's gonna love these.
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
She I can't wait to hear her review.
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Exactly.
She is a definitely a performerwho needs a secure, flexible,
and ultra-flattering fit.
So stay tuned.
Yay! So today I really don'thave any trigger warnings.
I mean, I suppose sexualharassment um would be one, but
(09:26):
my resources for this episodeare going to be listed on the
show notes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:35):
I just noticed this is 19 pages.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
19.
Is a girl tired when she'spregnant and it's late of an
evening?
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
I would be tired even if I wasn't pregnant
because it's 7.08 p.m.
But I was just like, holy guac.
You guys, for reference, if minegets over like nine pages, I'm
like, it should be a two-parterfor me.
Jenna comes in with like 13 to19 pages.
SPEAKER_01 (10:02):
Listen, I'm gonna some of it's fluff.
I'll talk fast.
The margins are narrow.
It's good.
We'll be all right.
We're gonna talk about RubyJackson.
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
Ooh, Ruby I don't know why I sounded so excited.
SPEAKER_01 (10:13):
I don't know who you should be excited.
She's wonderful.
You'll love her.
SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
I mean, I am excited, but I said it like I
know who Ruby is and I don't.
So please tell me.
SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
Ruby?
I'm glad you asked.
She was born in 1909 in Zuberg,Florida, into a family that
valued education, self-respect,and dignity.
Her upbringing was unusual forthe time and place.
While most black families inrural Florida struggled to
achieve basic literacy under JimCrow law, Ruby's parents placed
(10:46):
great importance on schoolingand the cultivation of
intellect.
They encouraged their childrento read widely and engage in
careful speech and carrythemselves with a sense of
purpose and poise.
I mean, that's beautiful, isn'tit?
Especially since they were in asociety that would not always
respect their humanity, which isdisgusting, but true.
(11:08):
So these lessons that they weretaught were essential for
survival.
It was a world defined by racialhierarchy where the law and
custom worked against them atevery turn.
The ability to navigate socialspaces with intelligence and
grace would mean the differencebetween safety and
vulnerability.
From a young age, Ruby exhibiteda sharp mind and keen awareness
(11:30):
of the social structures aroundher.
She learned earlier that theworld of adults was rigid,
stratified, and unforgiving.
The southern town she grew up inwas a microcosm of the broader
racialized society.
White men wieldeddisproportionate power, shocker,
and their authority extendedinto every institution, law
enforcement, courts, schools,and medical facilities.
(11:53):
For a black girl, knowledge andcomportment were protective
tools, but they couldn't shieldone from the more intimate forms
of coercion that often wentunrecorded in public life.
Ruby's childhood awareness ofhierarchy and power would serve
her well, but it alsoforeshadowed the painful
negotiations she would have tonavigate as an adult.
(12:15):
Ruby married Sam McCollum, a manwhose charisma and ambition
would eventually place thefamily at the center of Live
Oaks' social and economicactivity.
Sam became a prominent figure inthe local Bolita gambling
network.
And Bolita is an undergroundlottery system common in
Florida's black communities.
(12:37):
While it allowed the McCollum'sa measure of economic
independence unusual for blackfamilies in the region, it also
attracted scrutiny from whiteauthorities and created
opportunities for exploitation.
The financial resources thatRuby helped manage were a rare
advantage, and they afforded hersome leverage in navigating her
environment.
But in a town defined by strictsocial and racial hierarchies,
(13:00):
even financial independencecould not guarantee autonomy.
My oak itself was a study incontradictions.
Its streets and architecturewere calm and orderly, but
beneath the surface, socialcontrol was absolute.
White men, like Dr.
Clifford Leroy Adams, dominatedthe medical, political, and
(13:21):
social arenas.
Dr.
Adams was a physician ofconsiderable skill and a man of
political ambition, laterelected to the state
legislature.
To the public, he was arespected family man, a civic
leader and a professionalauthority whose reputation
extended throughout the county.
But beyond the veneer ofrespectability lay a pattern of
(13:41):
coercion and exploitation,particularly towards black
women.
Adams, like many men in hisposition of unchecked power
during the era, acted on theassumption that his social
status granted him rights overwomen in his community.
Rights that extended beyondfriendship, professional care,
or social acquaintance, if youknow what I mean.
(14:05):
By the way, when I said Adams, Iwas like, it's not Adam, because
your husband is lovely.
So this is Dr.
Adams just pointing that out.
Couldn't be like night and day.
Okay.
So Ruby's first interactionswith Dr.
Adams were framed by these powerdynamics.
What might have appeared as aroot as routine medical care was
(14:27):
in practice a mechanism throughwhich he asserted control.
He delivered one of herchildren, he treated her for
minor ailments, and consultedwith her in ways that would seem
innocuous to a casual observer,but with the dynamics of race,
gender, and power, theseinteractions were coercive by
their very nature.
According to later accounts,Ruby experienced repeated
(14:48):
advances, visits, and demandsthat placed her in a position
where refusal was dangerous, ifnot impossible.
In a society where legalrecourse for black women was
virtually nonexistent, Ruby'sconsent was effectively
nullified, and the boundaries ofprofessional ethics were
routinely violated by Dr.
Adams.
I hate this.
(15:10):
I hate this too.
I hate this so much.
By the early 1940s, Ruby's lifehad become increasingly
constrained by the social andsexual pressures imposed by Dr.
Adams.
She bore multiple children, andone of whom, widely believed by
her community to be fathered byDr.
Adams, embodied the coercive andintimate control that he exerted
(15:34):
over her.
SPEAKER_02 (15:35):
Do we know is her husband, Sam, the same race as
her?
Is that why there wasspeculation?
I guess I'm just oh yeah, weknow that she's saying that.
Yeah, her husband was black.
SPEAKER_01 (15:47):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, I love this.
Ruby.
I know, poor Ruby.
So the situation was compoundedby the expectations that were
placed upon her as a marriedwoman, as a black woman, and as
a mother.
Her husband Sam, while he wasinfluential and wealthy,
couldn't protect her from theabuses that she endured because
(16:08):
he was black.
Ruby's reproductive, not justbecause he was black, but also
because he wasn't, you know, aphysician.
He didn't and he didn't have ahave political stature, you
know.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
All those reasons.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
But it sounds like he knew this was happening.
Oh, how horrible for them as acouple.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
So Ruby's reproductive autonomy was
systematically undermined.
Her body was a site ofcontestation between her own
will and the demands of anentrenched social hierarchy.
This period of her lifeillustrates not only the
personal trauma that sheexperienced, which I can't
imagine, but also the broadersocietal forces that enabled and
(16:52):
concealed sexual exploitationwithin Jim Crow, Florida.
The pressure Ruby faced was notmerely personal, it was
structural.
In addition to sexual coercion,she navigated the complex
networks of economic and socialsurveillance that characterized
her community.
The McCollum's involvement inthe Belita gambling operation
placed them in proximity towealth and influence, but it
(17:14):
also made them subject toscrutiny by the law enforcement
and the white elite.
Their independence andvisibility disrupted the
expected social order, whichheightened the tension between
Ruby's agency and the mechanismsof control around her.
The dynamics of coercion weretherefore multifaceted,
intertwining personal, economic,and racialized forms of power in
(17:35):
ways that left Ruby with limitedoptions for resistance.
Accounts collected byjournalists and historians
indicate that Ruby's attempt toresist Dr.
Adams' control were constrainedby fear, shame, and the
potential repercussions for herfamily, of course.
When she confided in friends orneighbors, her disclosures were
(17:57):
cautious, fragmentary, andindirect.
It was an adaptive strategy in asociety where speaking openly
could have fatal consequences.
Her awareness of the threatposed by Dr.
Adams was acute.
She understood that in a legalsystem designed to privilege
white men, her voice would bemarginalized and her experience
likely dismissed.
(18:18):
These constraints created anenvironment in which Ruby's
options were so limited andevery decision carried potential
consequences, not only forherself but her children and her
husband.
So her early encounters with Dr.
Adams combined with hernavigation of the social and
economic networks of Live Oak,illustrate the intersecting
(18:41):
pressures that shaped her life.
She was a participant in and avictim of a complex power
dynamic where race, gender, andclass intersected to limit her
autonomy.
Her story at this stage is oneof survival within constraints,
an ongoing negotiation of risk,and the careful balancing of
personal agency against systemicoppression.
(19:02):
Her intelligence, dignity, andresourcefulness were essential
tools in managing thesepressures, but they couldn't
eliminate the coercive forcesthat defined her interactions
with Adams and the broadersocial hierarchy of Live Oak.
So, as we said, their theirMcCollum's financial
independence offered someprotection, but it also
(19:22):
intensified the scrutiny.
It kind of put the spotlight onthem because Sam, her husband's
position within the Bolitanetwork was providing wealth
that other black familiescouldn't access and positioned
the family as an anomaly withinthis segregate, segregated town.
So the wealth and the visibilitymade Ruby vulnerable to
manipulation by Adams and morecapable of resistance in some
(19:46):
subtle ways.
So her ability to navigate thetensions demonstrates that she
was so intelligent and aware,but also underscores the limited
avenues for meaningful autonomyavailable to these women in the
Jim Crow South.
So her early adult life ismarked by this delicate tension
between agency and constraint,resilience and vulnerability.
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
Are you going to tell us about this Jim Crow
thing?
Because I don't know what thatis.
SPEAKER_01 (20:10):
Basically, the the segregation era where, you know,
the law was that, you know,blacks and whites should not
mingle.
They should not go to the sameschool.
They should you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
I feel a little embarrassed.
I don't know what that is.
But if anyone else also didn'tknow what that was, you're
welcome.
No question is dumb question.
SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
And that's probably not the best.
Like I we could do a wholeepisode on Jim Crow, and I
probably didn't describe it.
I'm not trying to be flippantabout it, but it was just a
terrible time that reallyemphasized the lack of rights
that the black community had.
By the time Merby reached herearly 40s, she lived through a
decade of sustained coercion andcomplex social negotiation and
(20:54):
economic management within thisracial and stratified
environment.
So the pressures of theseexperiences created an
environment in which hereventual actions, though legally
framed as murder, spoiler alert,oh must be understood within a
broader context of systemicoppression.
So Ruby's story at thisjuncture, she's in her 40s, is
(21:16):
one of the constrained, a personwith constrained agency, someone
who was desperate to survive andpresent a moral imperative.
And also negotiate her power ina dis in a society that was
designed to suppress her voice.
So as we talked about, thepressures on Ruby McCollum in
(21:37):
the 1940s were progressing andprogressing, and Dr.
Adams' demands were morefrequent and more invasive.
So at one point theirinteractions might have seemed
limited to professional care,but they evolved into a dynamic
in which she had little abilityto assert control to the point
where obviously, you know, shewas having his child.
According to oral historiescollected decades later, Ruby's
(22:00):
visits to Dr.
Adams' office were fraught withtension and fear.
She learned to navigate hisdemands with precision.
She was careful not to provokehim, but simultaneously tried to
protect her family and her ownsense of self.
Every trip to his office carriedthe unspoken threat that if she
refused him or defied him, itwould have devastating
consequences on her or herfamily.
(22:23):
So during this period, Ruby gavebirth to several children, and
one, Loretta McCollum, is widelyunderstood to have been fathered
by Dr.
Adams.
The circumstances surroundingthis child revealed the
intersection of sexual coercionand reproductive control due to
her gender and race.
She had no meaningful recourse.
(22:45):
Black women were denied legalprotections, so she had no
bodily autonomy.
And even if she sought toconfront Dr.
Adams, the social and politicalstructures ensured that any
attempt at accountability wouldhave been futile or even
dangerous.
Meanwhile, Ruby and Sam had tomanage a local Bolita operation,
(23:05):
which again, as we mentioned,created a precarious balance
between independence andvulnerability.
So they were worried thatauthorities would threaten
exposure or legal action ifanything were to happen,
especially if she were to, youknow, push back against Dr.
Adams, or just that white eliteswould manipulate the family's
(23:26):
wealth to exert control over thefamily.
So Rudy seemed to understandthis delicate equilibrium.
She was very, very careful andwithin this context developed
coping strategies.
She maintained a careful facadeof compliance in public and
medical settings whileinternally trying to manage her
fear, anger, and moral tension.
(23:47):
Her intelligence allowed her tonavigate the demands placed on
her, but it made her acutelyaware of the limitations of her
abilities and her power.
So observers like Zora NeilHurston, author, noted Ruby's
outward calm and measured speechduring early interviews and
hearings, emphasizing thecontrast between her composed
(24:08):
demeanor and the intensepsychological pressures that she
faced.
This juxtaposition underscoredthe complexity of her
experience.
She was outwardly orderly andcompliant, but inside she was
navigating a constant state ofturmoil between coercion and
threat.
The burden of maintaining herfamily's safety weighed heavily
on her.
(24:28):
She was deeply aware that anydisruption to this delicate
balance would inviteretaliation, but at the same
time, she had the psychologicalburden of repeated sexual
coercion, and that's a nice wayof putting rape and the
realities of living in a societythat expected her not to
protest.
Her position was compounded byher role as a mother.
(24:50):
Protecting her kids fromexposure to Dr.
Adams became an imperative.
It shaped her decisions andconstrained her options.
Every pregnancy, every visit toDr.
Adams, and every interactionwith the broader community was
infused with a risk and the needfor strategic thinking.
Her life at this stage wasdefined by constant calculation.
How do I comply?
(25:11):
How do I survive?
How do I maintain dignity in aworld that systematically sought
to strip me of it?
By the late 1940s and early1950s, things reached a critical
point.
She had had enough.
She was tired of the legal andsocial mechanisms that protected
her abuser.
So she began to explore moredecisive actions, but always
(25:35):
tempered by the knowledge ofpotential consequences.
In August 1952, these pressuresculminated in a single
transformative act.
Ruby carried a small caliberpistol to Dr.
Adams' office.
The choice to bring a weapon wasnot impulsive.
It was a result of years ofstrategic calculation in an
(25:56):
environment where traditionalavenues of protection and
justice were not available toher.
The shooting itself was swift.
There were four bullets fired,one striking Adams in the chest
and ending his life.
Observers later described Rubyas composed, almost attached.
It was a demeanor shaped byyears of coping with this and
(26:17):
his coercion and threat andabuse.
So her actions weren'tcharacterized by emotionless
malice, but it was from profoundcalculated response to years
worth of exploitation.
You can imagine the aftermath ofthe shooting was quite
something, and it definitelyrevealed the stark inequities of
justice and media representationin this racist South at the
(26:41):
time.
Local authorities respondedpromptly, framing the event in
neutral and racially codedterms.
Newspapers described the killingas an act of an unstable black
woman while suppressing thecritical context of Dr.
Adams' nefarious deeds.
The white press erased Ruby'slived experience and the
systemic oppression thatprecipitated her act by
(27:02):
presenting a narrative thatserved the social hierarchy
rather than the truth.
By contrast, the black press,including the Pittsburgh
Courier, highlighted thecoercion and social constraints
that shaped her life and offereda more nuanced account of her
actions and circumstances.
Author Zora Neil Hurston'sreporting brought attention to
(27:24):
Ruby's condition during thehearings.
Hurston observed that Ruby hadbeen heavily sedated and
medicated prior to hertestimony, and she highlighted
the ways in which her mentalstate was manipulated to portray
instability.
(27:45):
These dynamics reflected thebroader societal patterns in
which black women's voices wereundermined, particularly when
they challenged white authorityor social norms.
So the trial itself exemplifiedthe intersection of race,
gender, and power in mid-centurySouthern justice.
Ruby's defense faced formidableobstacles.
(28:06):
The jury was all white and allmale.
Can you imagine?
No.
SPEAKER_02 (28:12):
I wouldn't even want that for me now.
SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
No, no, ever.
There's no diversity or, youknow, chance for an opinion that
might not be homogenous, youknow?
The judge systematicallyexcluded testimony regarding Dr.
Adams' coercion, rape, andphysical abuse, and instead used
psychiatric evaluations thatwere framed to cast doubt on
(28:38):
Ruby's credibility.
Every attempt to introducecontext that could explain her
motivations was met with censureor suppression.
The legal system operated notmerely to adjudicate the
killing, but to preserve thesocial hierarchy, protect the
reputation of white authorityfigures, and silence
inconvenient truths aboutracialized sexual exploitation.
(29:02):
He's a bloody rapist.
Yeah.
You guys.
So Ruby's defense attempted toframe her actions within the
broader context of the abuse andcoercion, but the prosecution
reduced her complex experienceto a simplistic narrative of
premeditated murder.
Witnesses were instructed toemphasize her alleged
(29:22):
instability rather than thethreat she'd endured.
And the court proceedings, asHurston noted, resembled a
performance scripted to upholdsocietal norms and protect the
entrenched power rather than agenuine attempt to deliver
justice.
What a surprise.
Ruby's story, the coercion, therape, the reproductive
exploitation, the years of fearwas excluded from the official
(29:45):
record.
So how is this justice?
In the weeks following thetrial, public perception of Ruby
was shaped by the media, whichstill happens today.
The white press emphasizedhysteria.
She's a woman, she's hysterical,instability, moral failing.
You know, how dare you getpregnant when you're raped by
(30:08):
your doctor?
While downplaying or ignoringthe coercion that led to the
shooting.
Meanwhile, the black press andcommunity advocates sought to
contextualize her actions,highlighting the systemic
pressures that she faced, theabuse she suffered, and the
courage it took for her to actin defense of her dignity and
her children's safety.
So this bifurcation of narrativeunderscores the broader societal
(30:29):
failure to recognize blackwomen's agency and the selective
application of justice in theJim Crow South at the time.
Her case also illuminates thegendered dimensions of systemic
oppression.
Her experiences show how blackwomen were rendered vulnerable
not only by racialized powerstructures, but by gendered
expectations of compliance andpropriety.
(30:52):
The combination of Dr.
Adams' professional authority,political influence, and social
status created conditions inwhich she was not allowed to
refuse.
That was not an option.
And the consequences of anyresistance would be
catastrophic, as she knew.
So her calculated actions mustbe understood as both a personal
response to this and a challengeto entrenched social norms that
(31:15):
sought to control black women'sbodies and choices.
And with this very profound andimportant and serious note.
Going to go to our section.
Welcome to the chart note wherewe learn about what's happening
(31:37):
in medicine and healthcare.
So, given that we're talkingabout Ruby McCollin's story,
we're gonna fast forward from1952 to 2025 where we still see
the lingering shadows ofhistoric injustices,
particularly in how blackmaternal health outcomes remain
alarmingly unequal.
(31:59):
Right now, did you know thatblack women in the U.S.
are two to four times morelikely than white women to
suffer serious pregnancycomplications?
Everything from preeclampsia andgestational diabetes to
postpartum hemorrhage and evenmaternal death, their babies are
almost more than twice as likelyto die in the first year of
life.
(32:19):
And these disparities aren'tsimply due to biology, they
reflect a web of systemicproblems, under-resourced
clinics, implicit bias inclinical care, gaps in insurance
coverage, and long-standingdistrust of medical
institutions.
But likely for good reasons.
A powerful new report from theMcKinsey Institute published in
(32:40):
2025 underscores just how muchis at stake.
Closing the black maternalhealth gap could restore 350,000
healthy life years among blackmothers and infants.
Economically, that translatesinto an estimated$24.4 billion
boost to the US economy throughfewer avoidable health programs,
(33:05):
higher workforce participation,and lower long-term medical
costs.
Even scaling back unnecessaryC-sections, which is a frequent
intervention, could savehundreds of millions of dollars
every year.
So what is changing?
How are people pushing back?
Well, there's a renewed focus oncommunity-based and culturally
(33:26):
grounded care.
Doula's midwives and birthingcenters that are rooted in black
communities are gainingtraction.
These are care models thatemphasize trust, respect, and
personalized support.
Exactly the kind of patientclinician relationship that Ruby
was denied.
And second, policymakers arestepping up.
Advocates that are are pushingto extend insurance coverage
(33:47):
farther into the postpartumperiod because many
complications emerge after birthwhen too many new mothers are
left uninsured orunder-supported.
There's also growing momentum toincrease funding for maternal
health in historicallyunderserved areas, especially
what we call deserts, maternitycare deserts.
So it's like an area that isjust the resources are too
(34:11):
they're not in the community,they're they're far away.
Third, medical education isevolving.
Hospitals and training programsare increasingly embedding
anti-biased training inhistorical context into
curriculum.
Physicians and nurses are beingtaught to recognize how racism
and sexism have shaped medicalpractice and how to dismantle
(34:32):
those harmful patterns goingforward.
Fourth, data is playing acentral role.
Health systems are investing inmetrics that track racial
disparities in outcomes likepreeclampsia, hemorrhage, and
maternal readmissions.
By shining a light on thesegaps, providers can target
interventions more precisely andhold themselves accountable.
Fifth, technology is beingleveraged thoughtfully.
(34:55):
Some advocacy groups are workingon resource allocation tools to
direct reproductive healthsupport where it's needed the
most.
Meanwhile, telehealth and mobilehealth programs are being
designed with equity in mind,ensuring that black birthing
people can access reliableprenatal and postpartum care
regardless of geography.
All of this matters deeply inlight of Ruby McCollum's legacy.
(35:18):
Her life was a powerful exampleof what happens when a medical
system dehumanizes and controlsa black woman's body.
Today, the movement to improveblack maternal health is an
effort to repair those harms, torestore agency, dignity, and
access that Ruby was denied.
This takeaway is urgent andhopeful.
Closing the black maternalhealth gap isn't just about
(35:41):
better statistics, it's aboutjustice.
It requires structural change,accountability, and
community-led solutions.
Ruby McCollum's story reminds uswhy this work matters and the
slow but growing progress showsthat the fight for reproductive
reproductive equity continues.
Back to the story.
By the time Ruby was sentenced,the systemic pressures that she
(36:03):
had endured had shaped everyaspect of her life.
Her death sentence was later Iknow, was later committed
through a plea agreement.
But this was just as much areflection of societal fear of
black female agency as it was aresponse to the shooting itself.
The legal and institutionalresponses to her actions
illustrate how societalstructures of power prioritize
(36:25):
the protection of entrenchedauthority over the recognition
of systemic injustice.
So the trial of Ruby in 1952became a flashpoint not only for
the town of Live Oak, but forthe nation's understanding of
race, gender, and justice.
From the outset, the proceedingswere steeped in inequities that
defined Ruby's life.
The courtroom itself wasemblematic of segregation and
(36:47):
inequality that all-white, allmale jury presided over the
case, which was a configurationthat virtually guaranteed the
verdict that she received.
Every procedural decision by thejudge was designed to
marginalize Ruby's voice anddiminish the relevance of her
lived experience and preservethe social authority of Dr.
(37:07):
Adams, the white man whose deathhad catalyzed the trial.
Defense attorneys attempted fromthe beginning to frame Ruby's
actions within the context ofher abuse, coercion, and
psychological duress.
They sought to prevent topresent evidence regarding Dr.
Adams' sexual abuse, uh, rape,coerce pregnancy, and
(37:28):
psychological toll that theseviolations said exacted on her.
They argued that her actionswere not the full result or were
not the result of cold-bloodedpremeditation and isolation, but
it was a response of years ofliving under fear, intimidation,
and threat.
But their attempts wererepeatedly blocked.
There were many objections fromthe prosecution, and the judge
(37:51):
ruled systematically, excludingtestimony that would actually
illuminate Ruby's lived reality.
And then the use of psychiatrictestimony further complicated
the proceeding proceedings.
Experts testified regarding hermental state, often emphasizing
that she was unstable,emotionally fragile, blah blah
(38:14):
blah.
We've heard this before.
Yeah.
In defense, Ruby's team soughtto introduce evidence of broader
social and economic pressures.
The fact that her familyparticipated in the Bolita
network, her attempts to protecther children, and the general
(38:34):
threat posed by these racialhierarchies should be relevant
to they posed to understandingher actions, but the judge
didn't care.
Similarly, the media coveragewould depend whether you were a
black newspaper or a whitenewspaper.
Language choices, words likeNegro woman, hysterical woman,
(38:56):
worked to dehumanize her on thewhite newspaper route, whereas
the black reports emphasized howshe was coerced and abused and
pressured, and how this uhunderscores the ways in which
she was uh, you know, basicallyset up to fail.
She had no recourse.
So, despite the efforts of herdefense and any a few
(39:20):
sympathetic journalists, thejury deliberated for only 90
minutes before they returned averdict of first-degree murder.
And Ruby was sentenced to deathby electric chair.
So, before this could be carriedout, the state intervened and
committed her to the FloridaState Hospital in Chattahoochee
under the pretext of psychiatricinstability.
(39:42):
So this institutionalizationserved multiple purposes.
It silenced Ruby, it removed herfrom public view, and it allowed
the state to avoid addressingthe problem, which was the
systemic, which was the systemicexploitation that had
precipitated her actions in thefirst place.
Her confinement was just onemore example of how legal and
(40:04):
medical institutions couldreinforce these aberrant social
hierarchies and margin, continueto marginalize individuals.
So inside the hospital, Ruby'sexperience was marked by intense
medical intervention.
She was heavily medicated.
She was subject to treatmentsthat were designed to suppress
her behavior.
(40:25):
They gave her sedatives,electriconvulsive therapy, and
other interventions that werejust basically torture and form
of control.
This effectively attempted toerase her voice within the
institution and reflected howblack women's experiences were
invalidated, pathologized, andcontrolled so that we can
(40:47):
maintain the order of whiteauthority.
During this period, journalistsand scholars started to
reconstruct her story,preserving fragments of her
experience and starting tocontextualize the legal, social,
and psychological dimensions ofher life.
Zora Neil Hurston, inparticular, conducted many
interviews that emphasizedRuby's awareness, intelligence,
(41:09):
and strategic thinking.
She noted the subtle ways inwhich Ruby navigated power and
managed to stay composed underduress and protect her family.
The broader implications of hercase were increasingly apparent
as her story began to circulateagain.
Scholars picked it up andstarted examining the
(41:30):
intersection of race, gender,and legal authority in Ruby's
case.
And the McCollum case emerged asan early illustration of what
would later be framed asreproductive coercion.
Unfortunately, Ruby wasinstitutionalized for decades.
She was released in the early1970s and was finally allowed to
return to her family with hervoice fractured by years of
(41:52):
enforced silence, sedation, andsocial erasure.
But even after release, herstory continued to resonate, and
it challenged legal scholars,historians, and cultural
analysts to confront thecomplexities of power, coercion,
and systemic injustice.
She is the picture of theresilience required to survive
within oppressive socialcircles.
(42:16):
The institutional response toRuby's act, the combination of
legal prosecution andpsychiatric
institutionalization, alsounderscored the mechanisms by
which society controls thenarratives of resistance.
By framing her as mentallyunstable and removing her from
public life, authorities ensuredthat her story would just be
suppressed.
But thanks to I mean the media,the media has its purpose.
(42:40):
So thanks to these persistentjournalists that were able to
gain oral histories, accounts,and historical information about
Ruby's narrative, they were ableto offer insights and continued
to press her narrative forwardand push it into the public eye.
Ruby's reintegration into familylike life was complex.
(43:01):
She lost significant time withher family, and the
psychological effects of thesedation, the electric
convulsive therapy, andprolonged isolation left
indelible marks.
But even so, she was dignified.
She navigated a world that hadlong suppressed her, but she had
the ability to survive, adapt,and persist.
(43:21):
She is a hero, and she was ableto later in her life provide a
presence within her family thatoffered continuity and
connection, a living testamentto survival in the face of
adversity.
Ruby passed away in 1992, herlife spanning decades defined by
courage, systemic injustice, andresilience.
(43:43):
By the time of her death, herstory had been preserved in
fragments of journalisticaccounts, oral histories, and
scholarly analyses.
Then the efforts of authors ZoraNeil Hurston, William Bradford
Huey, and subsequent historiansensured that her narrative would
endure and not die.
Her story is a focal point forunderstanding the intersection
(44:05):
of race, gender, andinstitutional power in mid-20th
century America.
SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
So did she not?
I thought she was sentenced todeath by electric chair, but she
just ended up in the secondroom.
SPEAKER_01 (44:19):
The state intervened and overturned it to a life
sentence in a psychiatrichospital.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (44:27):
Okay.
Still, like I'm like, tragicboth outcomes, but you're just
sitting there tortured fordecades.
Did your family even get tovisit you?
If they did, do you even know,you know, that your family was
visiting you?
SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
Yeah, because she was so drugged and abused, and
yeah, she tort just beingsilent.
Right?
Elective shock therapy.
Well, you know, first of all,she's a woman, she's black, and
she had the audacity to shoother oppressor, her rapist.
So she's obviously crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
You know?
SPEAKER_01 (45:03):
We're not gonna listen to her.
We're gonna have people like Dr.
Adams judge her.
And the fact that they took 90minutes to come back with I
mean, we're talking decades ofabuse.
Kids that she that were his, youknow.
She didn't, I mean, she tookcare of them and she loved them
as all of her other children,but she did not have any agency
(45:26):
to say, I want another child,and also I don't want it for my
rapist.
I would rather have it from achild from my husband.
Yeah.
My husband, absolutely crazy tome.
But yet it's not so sad.
It's like, oh hopefully, we'refarther ahead, but I don't know
how much farther.
SPEAKER_02 (45:44):
Well, I don't know how much farther because in your
chart note, you were like, Thisthis is 1952, and here we are in
2025, and we're still working onthese things.
SPEAKER_01 (45:54):
Yeah, like there's still a lack of, but I mean,
some of it's from lack of trust,and some of it's from lack of
privilege or resources.
But the lack of trusthistorically, can you blame
them?
Like, as white people, we needto be have some humility and
some understanding about thatgenerational trauma and really
(46:15):
kind of look at that.
How do we gain trust with thepopulation that has every right
to not trust us?
And why are we still themajority in terms of the people
who have these positions ofpower?
Um, what are we doing?
I mean, I think we're doing alot, but are we doing enough to
(46:35):
ensure that we're not just equaland equitable, but we're
welcoming and embracing, youknow, the our differences.
So I you know, I mean, this isAmerica.
We're we love America, and we'reall we're all different.
So just because somebody's youknow black doesn't mean they're
(46:58):
any different, but to them,they're coming to it with this
history, generational trauma.
I keep pulling that out as a hotbuzzword, but the more I learn
about it, the more I'm yeah, themore I'm like, yeah, I mean, I
would bear that on my shoulders.
My ancestors were treated thisway, and I'm supposed to go and
just open arms, embrace that I'mgonna get an equitable and
(47:21):
welcoming opportunity, you know,with this healthcare white man
healthcare provider.
I as an example, not to pick onthe well, and especially when
the medical statistics are stillshowing that.
So some of it's trust and someof it's just access and
privilege, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (47:40):
So yeah, I mean well, honestly, go Ruby for
shooting that motherfucker.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
I don't blame I don't blame her.
I don't want to shoot him too.
But we can see how I don't know,I know you're not.
But like I'm not saying that sheshouldn't have consequences, but
I think nowadays it's that abuseBut like can he also have had a
consequence for raping over theyears.
SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
And like and you're in the position of you're
supposed to be a trusted person.
SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
I mean, it was calculated, but it exactly
worse.
So it's it's it's and and therehave been some interesting true
crime cases that have come upwith this abused or battered
woman syndrome, where it's like,okay, so if it's manslaughter,
it's done in passion of themoment, right?
But these women who have hadyears of abuse and finally just
(48:38):
had it, and it's self-defense byevery stretch of the
imagination, because they aregetting rid of their abuser,
their torturer, the person thathurts them and their family, or
worse, it's them or you know,it's it's like survival, it's
defense.
SPEAKER_02 (48:57):
And when there are no other options, because she
was in a system that set her upto fail no matter what she did.
SPEAKER_01 (49:03):
Yeah, but because it was calculated, then that can't
be manslaughter.
And so that's where this whole,well, it was self-defense, but
it was calculated.
So it's murder, but is it murderin the first degree?
I mean, do we can we maybe pullback and look at the the whole
picture?
(49:23):
And I'm not a lawyer, so if wehave any lawyers listening, but
you know, how does this work?
Could Ruby, if Ruby was 2025figure who'd undergone this now,
would things be any different?
Obviously, we'd have probablyhave a more mixed.
I was gonna say the jurydefinitely be different.
But would she be able to claim,which would be true, but claim
(49:47):
like a battered or abused womanabused person syndrome, like
self-defense?
SPEAKER_02 (49:56):
Obviously, there would be women on the jury.
Like, because yes, at the end ofthe day, you did still kill
someone and you shouldn't killanyone, killing someone is
wrong, but she had the record,like the she couldn't go to the
cops, she couldn't go toanybody.
SPEAKER_01 (50:14):
There was nobody to protect her.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (50:16):
And I'm and so I'm thinking, like, if we're placing
ourselves in 2025, what doesthat look like now?
Yeah, you know, like hopefullythere's more systems in place to
protect or stop that behavior,so it wouldn't have to come to
murder.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (50:32):
Maybe there'd be simply more healthcare providers
and and and a woman physicianthat she could go to.
And I'm also not sure how muchof this Bolitas, which seems
like a gambling operation thatmay or may not have been legal.
I'm guessing not legal if thatwas a made her vulnerable.
unknown (50:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:53):
Yeah, because they made a lot of money with that,
so they probably had to like shehad a lot of of of eggshells to
tiptoe over, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (51:04):
Well, that was a tragic tale.
Great coverage.
Thank you for sharing it.
I'd never heard of that before,and I honestly hope that someone
out there can confirm it's atleast somewhat better.
Obviously, we can't deny that.
SPEAKER_01 (51:24):
I forgot to mention one of our sponsors, Jillian
Tonnell, recommended thisepisode.
So thank you, Jillian, for yeah,no, this is important
information and it does raisesome questions that we're
important asking.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (51:43):
I just have to say this has nothing to do with the
case, but the fact that her namewas Ruby Jackson reminded me
right away of Shannon's cat,Ruby, and she met Ruby before
she was married.
So Ruby's last name might beJackson.
SPEAKER_01 (51:59):
Shannon! This is a Ruby Jackson.
Yes, and she's named after abadass.
SPEAKER_02 (52:07):
Well, right, right, you know what?
And Ruby, her cat is kind of abadass woman, too.
SPEAKER_01 (52:13):
She is, she's forced to be reckoned with.
So, but also highly spoiled.
Sorry, Shannon.
I'm just saying, well, we shouldspoil our babies, right?
Yeah, we should spoil ourbabies.
Oh, speaking of spoiling, I wasjust I'm going to have to spoil
(52:35):
myself and order some Molly Beesgourmet cookies.
They're available at MollyBZ.comand they are these artistic,
you've talked about them, smallbatch craft cookies that are
like your neighbor just madethem for you, and or in my case,
my daughter, she makes goodcookies.
(52:57):
But these cookies are they meltin your mouth, they're
high-quality ingredients withreally crazy exciting flavor
combinations and layers and allkinds of things.
So I cannot wait to try the teacookies, smooth lavender
goodness with white chocolateand delectable lemon gloves.
SPEAKER_02 (53:17):
Oh, it sounds so good.
SPEAKER_01 (53:19):
Oh my god, I'm just like and the B Cordials, perfect
blend of chocolate and cherry.
And they called Every Bite anAdventure, which I just love for
myself and anyone else eating acookie.
I'm just a cookie fiend, I'm acookie monster.
And this company is so cute.
This mom, Molly, she's fromAlaska, started a brand and it
(53:41):
became a national sensation injust three years.
So she's been featured on theFood Network, Martha Stewart
Living, and even the GrammyAwards, like girl, you've
arrived.
You're making cookies for theGrammy Awards show.
Some of her signature creationsinclude the The Cordial, which
is the milk chocolate,maraschino cherries, and
(54:02):
amaretto, the Big Joe, Big Joe,which is coffee, milk chocolate,
and rum.
I mean, who doesn't put a littlerum in their coffee of a
morning?
Wowser, boba doodles, which weresnicker, which are
snickerdoodles with boba pearls,hot mess, which got us laughing
last week.
Mango, white chocolate, and hotCheetos, baby.
(54:25):
I mean, and there's the pimicoladas have white chocolate,
coconut, and fruity pebbles.
I just love that.
That one sounds so good.
I know.
There's even one called StraightFire that has marshmallows,
chocolate, cinnamon cereal, andcinnamon whiskey.
Or if you're my dad who alwaysdoes his WHs, it would be
whiskey.
Whiskey.
(54:45):
What?
Yeah.
So listen, if you want somecookies like I do, you can find
them.
MollyB Z dot com and enjoy 10%off big just because you know
us.
So you let them know we sent youwith our code stay suspicious.
S-T-A-Y-S-U-S-P-I-C-I-O-U-S.
SPEAKER_02 (55:08):
Thank you for that.
Yay.
Okay, time for a little uhmedical mishap, shall we?
SPEAKER_01 (55:17):
It reads sorry.
Did you just say medical mispap?
That would be so funny.
I don't think so.
Oh my god, medical mispep.
SPEAKER_02 (55:30):
I don't think so.
Uh it's very possible.
And also if anyone has a medicalmispap story missed, then sorry
if that happened to you.
SPEAKER_01 (55:45):
What are you gonna do?
Sorry, okay.
SPEAKER_02 (55:47):
Okay, the email reads, Dear Jenna and Amanda,
big fan of your podcast.
I'm going to pee my pants if youread this on the pod.
Well start peeing, girl.
Or god, or whoever you are.
I'll pee with you because I'mpregnant now I have to pee all
the time.
Um I'll start by telling youthat a friend of mine, let's
(56:08):
call her Sarah, had to go to herprimary care clinic for a
routine checkup.
Nothing traumatic, just bloodpressure, weight, heart rate,
the usuals.
She had a full day plan, so sheexpected it to be quick.
But what happened was, well,memorable.
She sits down in the exam room,and a young, very eager nurse
(56:30):
comes in with a blood pressurecuff the size of a small
backpack.
We're going to make sure we getthe perfect readings today, the
nurse said.
Sarah nodded politely, thinking,okay, standard procedure.
First, the cuff was wrappedaround her upper arm, tightened,
and inflated.
The nurse left the room brieflyto grab a clipboard.
(56:52):
Then a small alarm goes off, andSarah looked down and realized
that the cuff was stillinflating and inflating and
inflating.
And by this point, it felt likeher arm was being squeezed by
hydraulic press.
And those suckers do get tight.
Yeah.
The cuff hits a level that isvery clearly not normal, and
(57:15):
Sarah starts flailing slightly,half panicked and half laughing.
The nurse rushed back in andsays, Oh, sorry, I left it in an
automatic mode.
I don't know, I'm reading itlike that, but it just seems
fitting.
Apparently, the machine had anoverzealous monitoring mode that
she forgot to disable.
(57:36):
Yeah, now the blood pressurecuff is cycling every 30
seconds, inflating and deflatingwhile Sarah tries to calm
herself, which I'm like, that isnot how I did.
Every time it tightens, sheyelps.
Each time it releases, shesighs, and the nurse apologizes
profusely but cannot stoplaughing.
(57:57):
It gets better.
The doctor arrives, noticesSarah's arm is bright red and
slightly bruised from therepeated squeezes, and says,
Wow, that's a new record.
Usually we don't get vitals thatdramatic without a marathon or a
fight with a bear.
Everyone laughs, includingSarah, though her arm is still
throbbing.
(58:18):
By the end of the visit, hervital signs are finally stable.
Well, stable enough.
And she leaves the clinic with afunny story and a newfound
respect for automatic bloodpressure cuffs.
She swears she'll neverunderestimate a piece of medical
equipment again.
The takeaway?
Even routine visits can turninto small adventures,
(58:41):
especially when enthusiasm meetstechnology.
Clinics are full of competentstaff, but human error plus
automated machines can quicklycreate a perfectly harmless yet
hilarious spectacle.
And for Sarah, it was a reminderthat human nope, human, humor is
the best companion fornavigating the strange little
(59:01):
quirks of healthcare.
Thanks again for reading this.
If you do, and keep podcastingso we can learn about the true
crime in healthcare and staysuspicious.
Love Abby.
Well, thanks, Abby, for sendingin Sarah's story.
SPEAKER_00 (59:18):
Abby, I feel bad.
Why didn't they just rip thatsucker on the street?
I know and just keep laughingand let it go up and down, up
and down, up and down.
SPEAKER_02 (59:26):
I'm like, it sounds like Sarah was also laughing,
but I definitely would haveremoved the calf.
SPEAKER_01 (59:33):
I would have been like, dude, this I've had it
inflate so much that itexplodes.
Have you ever had that?
Oh no.
Yeah, no, explodes.
By explodes, I don't mean likeruptures, but like the it pushes
the velcro open.
SPEAKER_02 (59:46):
So you can oh, sure.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (59:51):
Especially if your arm's bent.
Like if you've ever been in thehospital where they you have to
have one on your arm the wholetime and every half an hour the
thing goes off.
Yeah.
And if you have your arm likebent or whatever, then it's like
really the thing is reallystruggling to figure out what to
do with you.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
And then God forbid you take off the pulse socks for
like one second.
Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:15):
Oh my gosh.
Wow, that was a good one.
Listen, Amanda, it's past yourbedtime.
I kept you up because it took meforever to get home and safe.
Me too.
Oh my gosh, it was it was buttclenching to say the least.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:32):
So Jenna's still clenching her butt.
My body tumbled baby movingtrampoline.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:42):
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:44):
Oh my gosh, Thanksgiving week.
When you guys listen to this,it's going to be Black Friday
shopping if you do that.
So maybe you'll be listening tous on your way to get some good
deals.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:54):
And we could give you a pillow box if you want to
get your girls from Dr.
We're not, you know, opposed.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01:08):
Um, but what can we expect to hear next week, my
love?
Well, it's gonna be surprise.
Woohoo! Because I'm either goingto finish one of my things that
I started, one of four or five,or it'll just be like last week
where I'm Like, yeah, I'll juststare at a new one.
And I haven't decided.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:30):
Well, that leaves us all on the edge of our seats.
I can't wait till then.
SPEAKER_02 (01:01:34):
Well, until then, I hope you're all on the edge of
your seats because me too.
Don't miss a beat.
Subscribe or follow Doctoringthe Truth wherever you enjoy
your podcast for stories thatshock, intrigue, and educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at doctoringthetruth at
buzzsprout.com.
Email us your own story ideasand comments at Doctoringthe
(01:01:56):
Truth at Gmail.
Sorry, I've got wickedheartburn.
And be sure to follow us onInstagram, Doctoring the Truth
Podcast, and Facebook, Doctoringthe Truth.
We're on TikTok atDoctoringTheTruth and ed oddpod
e-ud.
Don't forget to download rateand review so we can be sure to
bring you more content nextweek.
(01:02:18):
And until then, stay safe, drivesafe, and stay suspicious.
Suspicious.
Bye, bye, bye, bye.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:33):
Three, two, one.
One off.
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