Ep 44-Moose, Murder, And Medicine: The Attack of a Nightmare Patient

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_04 (01:25):
And uh Jenna.
Hey yo, how you doing?
Oh, thriving.
How are you?
Good.
Got a little taste of what doyou call that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:37):
Polar vortex.
Got sent home.
Oh, they had to close the clinictoday.
Tons of snow and lots of windand whatever.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
So it's a cozy evening in.
How about you?
What better way to spend yourcozy evening than to record a
podcast?
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (01:56):
Oh man, did it snow much where you are?

SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
No, we haven't gotten any more snow.
Excuse me.
Um since that was it lastweekend it snowed?
I can't even remember.
All the days are starting toblend.

SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
We did have like a big snow system come through at
some point.
I don't remember when it was.
It was recent.
And we haven't gotten any morezen that's accumulated to
anything meaningful.

SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
So I sent you basically what should have been
a sound clip, although it was avideo, but it was a video of
black nightness and some soundlast night.
Did you oh my gosh?

SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
Yeah, I know I saw it in the middle of the night
because you know I'm up everyhour to go to the bathroom.
And I forgot that I saw thatuntil you just mentioned, and so
I need to watch that.
It would it's just a moose orsomething, right?
Well, yeah.
So I I hear this, hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Oh my gosh, like this sound outside.
I swear it sounds just likethat.
And so I managed to record it.
I kept going outside, and andthe the darn thing would would
would shut up while I was outthere, and I was like, oh,
because I was FaceTiming mydaughter.
I'm like, I think I'm surroundedby these moose.
She's like, I don't hearanything, I don't hear anything.

(03:17):
I finally got a really goodrecording because he was going
to town, this this moose.
And we Googled what moose soundlike and compared it to this
recording, and it it definitelysounds like a moose.
So, and he sounds angry or atleast looking for love.

SPEAKER_03 (03:33):
I want to see if I can play it for everybody.
I wonder if it'll come throughto hear.
I'm gonna see if not, you canedit it out.

SPEAKER_02 (03:42):
I might drop a clip in later, but so I had my whole
family convinced it was a moose,and I took it to work, and
basically everyone laughed at meand said, That's a cow.
But I'm sorry, I still thinkit's a moose.

SPEAKER_03 (04:10):
I don't know.
Oh my gosh.
I don't know if you guys canhear this thing.
But it does sound angry.

SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
Yeah, that can't be a cow, really.
Because also I haven't seen anycows.
It doesn't mean they don'texist.
But also, this is really late atnight.
This is like 10, 11 o'clock atnight, it starts.
Like cows don't cows don'tcomplain at that time.

SPEAKER_03 (04:39):
Like, yeah.
Cows are sleeping then.
You're like, do you havedifferent cows up north than we
do down south then?
Or because our cows don't bellarin the middle of the night like
that.
It's a moose.
Maybe it was a cow giving birth.
Oh, really?
This time of year?
Oh, I don't know, but likesounded unpleasant.

(04:59):
I'm just thinking, like, if itwas bellering in the middle of
the night, why could that be?
Maybe it was like giving birth.
And then if you look up, if youliterally Google like moose, it
sounds just like that.
If you guys couldn't hear myrecording, it does sound very
similar to what she's doing.
So she's got it done.

SPEAKER_02 (05:20):
Because I kept popping outside.
It's like below zero to like,okay, maybe the thing's singing
again.
Because I heard it from insideand then I went out and it would
stop.
And I go in and out, in and out.
It's like this cryptid in thewoods behind the house.
Anyway, okay, well, I feelvalidated that someone else
thinks that it's not just asilly old cow.

SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
No.
I mean, I didn't grow up withcows, but I grew up close enough
to cows.
Also, the timing is verysuspicious.

SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Yes, I think it's a it's either an angry or horny or
birthing.
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Oh, birthing.
Whatever it is.
I hope it's cozy in the snow.
I haven't gone out to check onit tonight.
So I'll be out there.
Here, Cal.
Here, Cowie! Oh man.
But anyway, I think it'sprobably no better time to segue

(06:19):
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SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
Nice.
And a generous discount.
Yeah, that's a good discount.

SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
So today's episode, I don't really have any trigger
warnings.
And the majority of ourresources by our, I mean my
resources were from the SanFrancisco Chronicle and examiner
articles, but and there was anoxygen episode about this.
I think there was also anepisode on Snapped about this.

(09:23):
So I'll put those resources onour show notes, shall we?
Let's do it.
All right.
It was a warm, sunny day on July3rd, 1997, and Dr.
Travis and his wife Deborah werelate to work.
They worked at his privatepractice, a plastic surgery
clinic in Petaluma, and thecouple had been out late the

(09:43):
night before, celebratingDeborah's birthday.
On the way to the office, theycalled their office manager, Kay
Carter, to let her know theirETA.
Their first patient would bechecking in before they arrived.
Kay was such a reliableemployee, they could always
count on her to be the first tothe office and the last to leave
in the evening.
They could always rely on afresh pot of coffee waiting for

(10:06):
them each morning.
I mean, everybody needs a K inour life.
Yep.
Sounds amazing.
Yeah.
But Kay didn't answer thismorning.
She didn't answer the phone, andthat was weird.
As the couple approached theparking lot, they noticed that
Kay's car was there, but theclinic was still locked because
they could see their 8:30patient kind of standing outside

(10:27):
the main doors of the cliniclooking confused and definitely
locked out.
The Todd's wondered why Kayhadn't unlocked the door yet as
they hurried into their usualentrance at the back of the
building.
Once inside, nothing seemed outof order.
The smell of Kay's coffeegreeted them as usual.
Deborah went to finish puttingher makeup on in the ladies'

(10:47):
room, and her husband went tohis back office to get ready for
his day.
Deborah heard a woman's calm andeerily threatening voice in the
hallway shortly afterwards.
I've been to 28 surgeons.
Then her husband's voicepleadingly, I'm sorry, he said.
I care.

(11:08):
Gunshots split the air.
One, two, there were more.
She lost count as she fled outthe back door to the clinic,
calling 911 as she ran.
Soon the perimeter was swarmingwith law enforcement officers.
Side note, one of the newsreports interviewed an employee
from a physical therapy clinicright next door.

(11:28):
They initially thought that thegunshots were early fireworks
because it was July 4th.
I know.
Imagine their shock and horrorwhen they saw the officers in
the SWAT team swarming the area.
It was super tense becauseofficers didn't know if the
shooter was still in thebuilding and whether Dr.
Tavas and Kay were hurt.

(11:49):
Officers stormed the buildingand found Dr.
Michael Tavas lying on his backin the hallway of his clinic,
shot once in the chest and threemore times in the back as he
tried to run away.
And this is so awful.
He had fallen on top of theoffice manager Kay Carter, who
had been shot in the head andwas somehow still barely alive.

(12:09):
Oh my God.
Both were rushed by EMS to thehospital, but Dr.
Tavas was pronounced dead at thescene.
Kay survived, but she sufferedsevere brain damage, was
wheelchair bound, and her lifeforever changed as a result.

unknown (12:25):
Dr.

SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Tavas was 53 years old.
He was a beloved father,husband, and a surgeon.
He and Deborah had only beenmarried for a year.
They met in a pottery class.

SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
Oh my gosh, how wholesome.

SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
And they fell in love.
They both loved art.
That was something they had incommon.
And they got married in Paris.
I can imagine.
And worked, both worked at hispractice together.
They should have been able tospend the rest of their lives
living out their dreams.
But to understand how thistragedy unfolded, it helps to

(13:02):
zoom out for a moment.
Plastic surgery in the late1980s and early 1990s,
especially breastreconstruction, was a
high-stakes game.
Implants were under publicscrutiny.
The FDA was raising eyebrowsabout silicone, and lawsuits
were swirling in the backgroundlike a dark cloud over every
elective surgery.

(13:23):
Patients had high expectations.
Some were realistic and someless so.
And the surgeons?
Navigating human psychology?
Not so much.
Into this arena stepped TeresaRamirez.
When Ramirez was diagnosed withbreast cancer in 1988, she was

(13:45):
in her mid-30s, working as anurse for Kaiser Permanente in
Santa Rosa.
Colleagues remembered her ascompetent, organized, and blunt.
She had no tolerance for sloppycharting or shortcuts in patient
care.
She had survived a difficultchildhood as the oldest of three
siblings.

(14:06):
Nursing had become her proof ofstability and usefulness.
A cancer diagnosis disrupted notonly her health but her sense of
control, something she'd alwaysguarded tightly.
She underwent a bilateralmastectomy.
And as with many mastectomypatients, reconstruction was not
a superficial choice.
It had emotional and practicaldimensions: body image,

(14:28):
sexuality, and the symbolicreclaiming of a body changed by
disease.
Ramirez followed her surgeon'srecommendation and was referred
to Dr.
Michael J.
Tavas, whose petaluma practicehad a long-track record of
reconstruction after oncologicsurgery.
By the time Teresa Ramirezwalked into Dr.

(14:50):
Tavas' office for her initialconsultation, she was already a
study in contrast.
On the surface, she appearedpolite, organized, and perfectly
reasonable.
She had brought charts,pamphlets, and a notebook that
looked like it could havedoubled as a law school
syllabus.
She asked questions about thesurgical procedure, the recovery
process, potentialcomplications, and the timeline

(15:11):
for seeing results.
All very normal.
But if you look closer, therewere signs that something more
intense was brewing.
Teresa annotated every brochure.
She cross-referenced everypamphlet with the notes that the
staff gave her, and occasionallyraised questions that had less
to do with medicine and more todo with trust or perhaps
suspicion.

(15:33):
For instance, she would askabout who exactly was in the
operating room during surgery,or if any extra materials were
being used.
And she did this with a calm,almost clinical insistence, the
kind of persistence that wouldmake most office staff nod
politely while silentlythinking, all right, that's
thorough.

(15:53):
For sure.
I think we all have met somebodylike this.

SPEAKER_03 (15:58):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
Yeah.
They're just look it's almostlike they're looking to drip you
up or you know, they're going inwith mistrust.
And instead of granting it toyou, you have to earn it first.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
It's almost like Which is like, I've never broke
your trust before.
How did we get to this plateauof mistrust?
Who wronged you so badly thatyou're carrying it everywhere?

SPEAKER_02 (16:19):
Right.
Okay, so she was thorough, butthat was a first step in a
trajectory that would spiraltragically.
Early interactions with medicalstaff indicated she was
detail-oriented, but she had agrowing need for control.
And this need would intensifywhen post-surgical sensations
failed to match herexpectations.
The surgery itself, performed inlate 1993, went by all objective

(16:44):
measures perfectly.
Operative notes confirmed thatDr.
Tavis followed standardprocedure, the implants were
positioned correctly, and therewere no unusual occurrences.
Postoperatively, she was healingwithin normal parameters.
Vital signs were stable, theincision sites looked healthy,
and follow-ups were routine.

(17:05):
But Teresa's mind, as it oftendoes in high stress scenarios,
had its own narrative.
To her, every twinge orsensation was suspicious.
A tight feeling across her chestbecame proof of wrongdoing.
A mild ache or shift, evidenceof hidden tampering.
The human brain, I know, thehuman brain is a remarkable
pattern-seeking machine.

(17:25):
And in Teresa's case, thepatterns that she found were
always sinister, according toher.
According to court records andlater trial testimony, Ramirez
initially trusted Tabas.
She had no reason not to.
He was board-certifiedprofessional and experienced in
postbastectomy reconstruction, aprocedure requiring precision
and careful staging.

(17:47):
Reconstruction isn't onesurgery, it's a sequence of
surgeries.
First you get expanders, thenimplants, sometimes revisions,
sometimes grafting.
No patient emerges from itunchanged.
Over the next several years,Ramirez would undergo multiple
procedures with him, someplanned and others corrected.
As with any long-term surgicalpatient, emotions and

(18:09):
expectations grew complicated.
After surgery, she beganexpressing her concerns,
initially in polite letters andphone calls that might have
seemed overcautious to staff.
Quote, the implant feelsdifferent, end quote, she wrote.
At this stage, most doctorswould respond with reassurance,

(18:31):
which is what Dr.
Tavas did.
He explained the normal healingprocess, the expected
sensations, and the timeline forcomplete recovery.
Medically, he was correct.
Factually, nothing unusual hadoccurred, but the effectiveness
of reassurance depends on thepatient's ability to accept it.
And Teresa's acceptance tank wasempty.

(18:55):
Soon her letters became longerand more insistent.
The phone calls grew colder.
In one call, she asked aboutsurgical assistance,
anesthesiologists, and evenadmin staff in a tone that was
calm, almost clinical, but witha sharp undercurrent.
It was a message that she waswatching and analyzing.
Staff recalled her politedemeanor, but remember the

(19:16):
subtle chill that signaled thatthere was something.
She was certain that somethinghad gone wrong.

SPEAKER_03 (19:22):
I don't remember when caller ID came out.
This are we in the early 90sright now?

SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (19:28):
So I don't know.
It was not a thing yet.
But I'm like, if it was, can youimagine seeing her name flashing
on the it's like, ah, it's yourturn.

SPEAKER_04 (19:38):
You do like not it, not it, not it.

SPEAKER_03 (19:41):
She's calling again again, not it.
Nose goes, no.

SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Oh man.
Yeah.
I mean, the staff, they thoughtshe was anxious.
She seemed rational, but theyjust continued to, as as they
could, provide standardfollow-up care.
Anxiety is typically manageablewith explanation, reassurance,
or even therapy.
This wasn't anxiety, this wasobsession, especially when

(20:07):
combined with a feeling ofbelief when being wronged.
Obsession is a completelydifferent trajectory.
And so the stage was set.
We have a patient whose anxietyand meticulousness morphed into
mistrust and then intoobsession.
We have a surgeon who'scompetent and professional, but
increasingly becomes the villainin a narrative entirely created

(20:29):
in that patient's mind.
And a medical system that in1993 really had no structured
way to flag the type of riskthat would soon become tragic.
So the first major complicationwas a suspected leak in her
right implant.
Silicone gel implants of thatgeneration were known for silent
rupture, which is a failure thatmight not be immediately

(20:51):
obvious, but could producechanges in the breast shape,
firmness, or mild inflammation.
So these complications were not,medically speaking, unusual, but
to Ramirez, they feltcatastrophic.
She reported pain, fatigue, anda constellation of systemic
symptoms that she believed wereconnected to the leaking
implant.
So at this point, she's becominghypervigilant and like anything

(21:15):
she has, whether it could belike, you know, an ingrown
toena.
I'm just imagining like aningrown toenail.
Well, that's related to mykidney's inability to heal, you
know.
Like she's going to be blamingabsolutely everything on this
potential mishap.
At the time, public concernabout silicone implants was at a
peak, so that didn't help.
Lawsuits against manufacturersmultiplied.

(21:37):
Medical uncertainty swirled inthe media.
Experts disagreed whether overwhether silicone leakage
actually caused a stomachillness, fueling anxiety among
patients.
Ramira is already someone whoneeded answers that she could
trust, found herself trapped inthat uncertainty.
She underwent revision surgeryand then additional corruptive
procedures.

(21:57):
Records indicate she was neversatisfied with the cosmetic
outcome, but her dissatisfactionwent far beyond appearance.
She believed firmly that she'dbeen physically harmed by a
device she had not fullyunderstood and had been
pressured into accepting.
Whatever nuance Tavis tried tooffer, that complications were
common, that reconstructivesurgery was inherently

(22:21):
imperfect, felt to Ramirez likeexcuses.

SPEAKER_03 (22:24):
But like, were there actually complications, or she
just thought there werecomplications derived from the
cell?

SPEAKER_01 (22:31):
I think sometimes the leaks they would, because
they're so minute, at least theyhave to go in to check.

SPEAKER_03 (22:38):
But yeah, yeah.
Because they wouldn't do arevision if unnecessary.
So I guess yeah, that's the onlyway you can check.

SPEAKER_02 (22:45):
But I'm like, I don't know.
I mean, I'm I'm probably wrong,but yeah, you would think it
sounds like there's a number ofsurgeries that are expected to
happen along this process, andthat things before they settle.
And just looking into it alittle bit, the recovery is a
long time.
And she had already startedcomplaining before that there's

(23:06):
swelling and and mismisshapenness as long as six to
eight months after the surgery,from what I could read.
So she was jumping the gun and Idon't know, so persistent and
insistent on her symptoms that,you know, they were taking her
seriously.
Eventually, her frustrationbecame legal action.

(23:27):
She filed a malpractice claimagainst Taggus and joined a
larger suit against the implantmanufacturer.
She sought roughly$100,000 forcorrective surgery.
So she sought compensatorydamage for the surgeries, lost
work hours, and related damages.
The case was settled in 1995 for$10,000, which is just 10% of

(23:48):
what she wanted.
Yeah.
Probably one surgery comes back.
You know, if not more, I didn'tlook into that.
But she saw this as an insult.
So this is the point at whichher relationship with Dr.
Tavis began to transform.
It wasn't that she simplybelieved he'd harmed her, it was
that she believed that hedismissed her suffering,
minimized it, and then slippedout of accountability through a

(24:10):
paltry settlement.
In her mind, he had wronged hertwice, first with the surgery
and then with a settlement.
After the settlement, Ramirez'sbehavior began to shift in ways
that colleagues later describedas unlike her previous demeanor.
She became preoccupied with herhealth problems, and here's that
hypervigilance, and the beliefthat nobody was taking them
seriously.

(24:30):
She'd been out of work since1989 because of illness and
chronic pain, which isolated herfurther.
She had the medical knowledge tounderstand procedure notes and
pathology reports, but alsoenough knowledge to
catastrophize theirimplications.
Friends from her nursing daysnoticed she was becoming
increasingly distrustful ofphysicians.

(24:50):
She believed Tavas and otherdoctors covered up their
mistakes.
She spoke about being ruinedphysically and financially.
Her attorneys had moved on.
The case was closed, andsilicone implant litigation
across the country was coolingas settlements and moratoriums
were finalized.
But Ramirez did not move on.
In 1993, Teresa Ramirez crosseda threshold.

(25:12):
Anxiety had become obsession,obsession hardened into
conviction, and conviction hadbegun to outline a blueprint for
action.
No one in the clinic realizedhow close the situation had come
to crossing the point of noreturn.

SPEAKER_04 (25:28):
And with that, we're going to take a little break for
our cha cha.

SPEAKER_02 (25:43):
Nope, nope.
Tis the season.
Welcome to the Chart Note, wherewe learn about what's happening
in medicine and healthcare.
Let's take a moment and pausethe darkness of our story for a
breath of light, because whilethe world of medicine can be
harsh, traumatic, and tragic,there's also remarkable progress
happening.
And one of the most hearteningis how artificial intelligence

(26:05):
is changing the game for cancerdetection.
In 2025, a landmark study led byresearchers at UCLA Health and
published in the Journal of theNational Cancer Institute
revealed something powerful.
AI tools helped detect what arecalled interval breast cancers,
tumors that were present butmissed on initial mammograms,
and which sometimes show upbetween routine screenings.

(26:27):
The AI software flagged 76% ofmammograms that had initially
been read as normal, but laterturned out to have cancer, and
it correctly identified 90% ofcases where human radiologists
had missed visible tumors,meaning many cancers that might
otherwise go undetected werecaught early.
Overall, incorporating AI-basedreview and screening protocols

(26:49):
could reduce the rate of thoseinterval cancers by an estimated
30%.
That's not a small improvement.
That's a potential differencebetween early-stage treatable
cancer and late-stage disease.
Even broader studies reinforcethese findings.
A large-scale national screeningprogram published in 2025 showed
that when AI-supported workflowswere used instead of standard

(27:10):
mammogram protocols, the rate ofcancer detection increased by
21.6%.
And it wasn't only about findingmore cancer.
AI also helped improveefficiency.
In other real-worldimplementation, radiologists
using AI spent 43% less timereviewing normal exams.
Yet, despite that fasterworkflow, cancer detection

(27:33):
improved, while recall, falsealarm rates actually dropped.
So, what this means for patientsand providers is earlier
detection, which means betteroutcomes.
Tumors that are caught earlierare often smaller, less
aggressive, and easier to treat.
And that means fewer invasiveprocedures, less aggressive
therapy, and better long-termsurvival, less stress for

(27:54):
patients, fewer false alarms.
So with AI improving accuracywithout increasing false
positives, patients can avoidunnecessary recalls or biopsies.
So fewer scares, fewerprocedures, fewer bills, and
fewer nights lost to worry.
It also could potentially meanmore equitable access.
So for people in rural orunderserved areas where skilled

(28:16):
radiologists might be scarce,AI-assisted screening offers a
promising route to bringhigh-quality diagnostics to more
people.
And less burnout leads to morehuman care.
Radiologists and medical staffare under intense pressure.
By offloading the routine imagereview to AI, clinicians have
more time for what machinescan't do, providing empathy,

(28:38):
patient conversation, complexdecision making, and follow-up
care.
So although this is a hopefuland exciting development, AI
isn't magic.
It doesn't replace humanjudgment.
In some studies, AI stillproduces false positives or
misses certain cancers,especially in challenging cases
like dense breast tissue.

(28:59):
But when used as a support tool,a second set of eyes, a safety
net, AI is proving to be apowerful ally.
Instead of replacingradiologists, many experts now
view AI as a collaborator.
Human plus machine equals betterresults than either alone.
And there's more coming.
In late 2025, a majormulti-institutional trial, the

(29:20):
PRISM trial, launched in theUnited States with$16 million of
funding.
It will evaluate AI-assistedmammography across hundreds of
thousands of screenings toassess not just detection
accuracy, but patientexperience, anxiety, recall
rates, and equity acrosspopulations.
If it succeeds, this couldreshape standard screening
protocols across the country,making early detection more

(29:43):
accurate, faster, and availableto more people than ever before.
In the middle of stories likeTeresa Ramirez, stories about
mistrust, pain, and tragicoutcomes, it's easy to get lost
in despair.
But this advancement reminds usthat medicine isn't static.
It evolves, it learns, andsometimes it builds tools that
give hope, especially to peoplewho might otherwise fall through

(30:04):
the cracks.
Although we often tell storiesof suffering and tragedy, we can
also light a candle because formany, AI-assisted detection
might mean catching cancer whenthere's still time, choosing
less aggressive treatment andwalking out alive.
It isn't a cure for all, butit's a big step forward.
Back to the story.
By late 1993, the dynamicbetween Teresa Ramirez and Dr.

(30:28):
Travis had shifted from routinefollow-up to something far more
dangerous.
What began as polite questionsand careful notes had
transformed into rigid,unshakable narrative in her mind
that she had been wronged.
Not in some abstractmetaphorical sense, but in a
very concrete, personal, andterrifying way.
Every twinge of discomfort,every shift in her implants,

(30:48):
every standard post-op sensationwas now interpreted as proof of
deception.
The letters poured in, each onelonger, more detailed than the
last.
The tone of her letters werechanging, where once she'd asked
questions, now she was makingstatements.
You're hiding something, shewrote.

(31:11):
Only her certainty mattered.
Phone calls became an art formof persistence.
They were calm, polite, andclinical, but underneath the
calm was an icy precision.
I need the exact details of theprocedure, she said one time.
Who was present in the room atevery moment?
What materials were used?
Why don't my records match myexperience?

(31:31):
To any listener, these mightsound like reasonable questions,
but there was a tone in hervoice that left staff unsettled.
A silent message that she wasalready framing this as a
confrontation rather than aconversation.
In 1996, she returned to Tavis'soffice, demanding her medical
records.
Not just her records, but everyscrap of documentation related
to her procedures.

(31:52):
I mean, this is within her legalrights, but the intensity of her
demands alarmed staff.
According to later reports, sheinsisted that the doctor was
hiding something.
She believed somewhere in thosefiles was proof that he'd
knowingly implanted a defectivedevice.
Staff members recounted that shegrew agitated when they when
they told her that certaindocuments did not exist or that

(32:14):
old records required time tolocate.
At one point, she accusedemployees of deliberately
stalling.
She insisted on waiting in theoffice lobby until everything
was produced.
Tavis eventually had to bringher into a private room to calm
her.
He didn't foresee her as adangerous, as dangerous.
Irritated, yes, litigious,certainly, but not dangerous.

(32:36):
He had dealt with difficultpatients before, many surgeons
do.
Reconstruction carries intenseemotional weight.
Surgeons learned to absorb that.
But Ramirez wasn't just venting,her fixation deepened.
The more she believed she'd beenvictimized, the more she
convinced herself she wasentitled to answers that no one
would give her.

(32:56):
She was convinced Tavas hadbetrayed her trust deliberately.
She saw malice where there wasdocumented complication.
She saw conspiracy where therewas routine post-op
imperfection.
And this is where psychologyenters the narrative.
Teresa had developed a fixedbelief system, a mental
framework in which she was thevictim and Dr.
Tavas was the perpetrator.

(33:17):
In psychiatry, this is oftendescribed as a delusional
intensity combined with personalconviction.
She wasn't paranoid in theclassical sense.
She wasn't seeing hidden figuresbehind every corner, but she was
completely convinced thatsomeone had wronged her and that
no one would admit itvoluntarily.
During these months, she becameobsessed, more and more
obsessed.
She documented everything,tracked every staff interaction,

(33:40):
every response from the clinic,and every statement in her
medical record.
And here's the part that'sterrifying and strangely
relatable.
We've all known people whoobsess over perceived slights,
maybe a coworker, someone whoconvinced someone stole credit
for a project, or a neighbor whointerprets every glance as
judgment.
Most of us stop at irritation,social distancing, or

(34:02):
passive-aggressive emails, butTeresa Ramirez did not.
Her obsession, combined with agrowing sense of injustice,
became a blueprint for violence.
It's a sobering reminder thatobsession can metastasize if
unchecked.
And sometimes the warning signsare subtle until they aren't.
In 1993, risk assessments forpotentially dangerous patients
were nonexistent.

(34:22):
There were no protocols, redflags, no watch list, just
polite staff and a professionalsurgeon doing his best to
reassure a patient who wasn'tinterested in reassurance.
She wanted a confession.
She began showing up unannouncedat the clinic, citing urgent
concerns, insisting on seeingDr.
Tavas directly, bypassing staff.

(34:43):
And during these visits, hercalm exterior remained, but the
intensity of her questioningsuggested internal calculation.
Later, psychiatric evaluationswould reveal that she had
developed hyperfocused cognitivepatterns, meaning her mind could
not process alternativeexplanations.
Every answer given was filteredthrough a lens of suspicion,

(35:03):
reinforcing her delusionalcertainty.
Small interactions becamebattlegrounds.
For instance, when Dr.
Tavas explained that post-opshifts and implants were normal,
she would nod, record thestatement, but her inner
narrative immediately concludedhe's lying.
He must admit it.
He has done something wrong.
So, in short, rationalcommunication failed entirely.

(35:25):
Reality, fact, and medicalexpertise were irrelevant to her
constructed story.
And by July 4th, 1997, she tookmatters into her own hands.
The aftermath of the shootingwas unsurprisingly a whirlwind.
Police secured the seam,forensics combed every corner of
the clinic, and neighborswatched in stunned disbelief as

(35:47):
ambulances and squad carsconverged.
The investigation moved swiftly.
Officers interviewed staff,patients, and neighbors,
gathered in statements,timelines, and medical records.
Everything pointed to a chillingconclusion.
The act had been premeditated,deliberate, and personal.
Officers went through the listof suspects, the wife, the
pissed-off patients.

(36:07):
Everyone checked out, except forone, Teresa Ramirez.
And she was not anywhere thatshe could be found.
Until four days later, whenpolice got a call from the San
Francisco Police Department.
Apparently, two days earlier,they'd been called to the Harbor
Court Hotel about an unconsciouswoman.
And this is where things geteven stranger.

(36:31):
The woman in question hadchecked into the hotel on July
3rd at 5 p.m.
When housekeepers went in toclean her room the next day,
they found her passed out on thefloor, totally unresponsive.
The paramedics were called andshe was rushed to the hospital,
where it was discovered she wasin a diabetic coma.
The reason that the SanFrancisco Police Department

(36:52):
thought that this informationmight be useful to the Petaluma
Police Department was for anumber of reasons.
First and foremost, when policesearched her hotel room, they
found she'd registered under afalse name.
She signed in as Teresa Brew,but the ID in her handbag said
Teresa Ramirez.
And then it's like you can'teven use a different first name.

(37:16):
And then they found a number ofpuzzling things, including$5,000
in cash, a train ticket to VanNuys, two handguns, and then
most disturbingly, a notebookwith a handwritten list of
names.
In this list were details aboutevery person on the list,
including their addresses.
And there were 20 names on thislist.

(37:37):
Jeez.
Dr.
Tavas was on this list, and sowere 19 other doctors.
The first name was Dr.
Robert Fees.
Dr.
Fees was a medical director forthe HMO that had that carried
Teresa Rivera's healthinsurance.
His job was to evaluatepatients' readiness for surgery.
So he was the physician thatwould decide whether they were

(37:58):
suitable, not just physically,but mentally as well.
Turns out a couple yearsearlier, Teresa had gone to Dr.
Fees after having 13 surgeriesfor breast implants and
adjustments, and she hadn't beenhappy with any of them.
She basically burned bridgeswith her discontentment with a
myriad of surgeons to the pointwhere many of them refused to
see her again.

(38:20):
Dr.
Fees was concerned that she'dhad so many surgeries and
insisted on a one-on-one consultwith her before he would approve
anymore.
On the day of her consultationwith him, he described her as
nervous and fidgety.
He told her that in order tomake sure she was a good
candidate for any futuresurgeries, he would need her to
see a psychiatrist.
I mean, bless up.

(38:41):
Yeah, good for him.
Without any notice, I can'tbelieve she did that.
Without any notice, she rose outof her chair, ripped open her
shirt, saying, Here, this is whyI need more surgery.
And just like that, wow, shethrust the twins in his face.
He ended up having to having tocall security, who promptly

(39:02):
escorted her and the girls outof his office, securing him a
place on her hit list.

SPEAKER_03 (39:08):
Oh my.
Yeah.
I don't think he's and you hadbeen wondering this um the whole
time, but probably so do we knowif she had a psyche valve before
this elective initial electivesurgery?
Or maybe that was not a thingyet.
We because now this is 13surgeries later.
I don't know how much time is inbetween there, but I know like

(39:31):
even our implant patrons have toYeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:34):
So she got cancer in 89 and she had the mastectomy.
So I think, and then this is allhappening in early night, like
92, 93.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:44):
I don't know where we are now.

SPEAKER_02 (39:45):
Yeah, so she shot, so she ended up, I think she had
13 surgeries before she saw Dr.
Fees.
When did I say she saw him?
Like in '93.
And then she murdered Dr.
Tavas in '97.
So I think this was before shehad seen Dr.

(40:07):
Thomas.
And so I don't know how she gother insurance to cover this if
she didn't have the obviouslyDr.
Fees isn't going to be writingher anything.
So but she was doing a lot ofshopping, and a lot of people
not, you know, you know howpeople do that.
They cover up the tracks or theygo and throw the last clinic
under the bus, come in for asecond opinion, and this kind of
stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (40:29):
And I mean, she has a compelling story on top of it.
She had breast cancer,mastectomy, like people were
gonna want to help her.

SPEAKER_04 (40:37):
She had the lingo down.
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (40:41):
But in all I do remember reading some more that
she paid for because insurancestopped pain.
I don't know at what point theystopped pain, but she used some
of her money that she'd gottenfrom her settlement to pay for
another surgery.

SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
I was wondering if that's where too.
She's like bought her two guns,had 5k in cash.

SPEAKER_02 (41:02):
Like, yeah, where's this coming from?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (41:05):
Yeah.
I don't know how much a guncosts, but to have two?
Yeah, what do you need two for?
Um she got two hands.
Yeah.
She's coming in like an oldwestern cowboy.
Pew, pew, pew.
Right?
Gunslinger.
That's not funny.

SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
We need a little bit of respite from.
This dark place that she is.

SPEAKER_03 (41:27):
Um okay, so she showed the tatas, the sissies,
like this is why I need moresurgery.
And he was like, Audio sister,not signing off, and then he's
like on her hit list.

SPEAKER_02 (41:41):
He was number one first hit.
She actually went by his house.
She drove by his house the daythat she murdered Dr.
Tavas.
And if Dr.
Fees had been home that day, hewould have met a different fate
in life.

SPEAKER_03 (41:54):
Same story as last week.
You would have been there, you'dhave been a goner.
Yikes.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (42:00):
So so she shoots him on July 4th.
And July, I forget.
She checked into this hotel July3rd, and then I think it was the
evening of the fourth.
She was discovered there.
They took her to the hospital.
They let the Petaluma PD know onthe 7th.
And then she woke up in thehospital from her coma on July

(42:21):
9th.
So four days later.
It was just in time for them toinvestigate her.
So they put her under arrest,right?
Good morning.

SPEAKER_03 (42:29):
Do we have some questions for you?

unknown (42:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (42:33):
I hope you had a good rest.
We have a long day ahead of us.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (42:36):
Get ready to answer some questions.
So they put her in, theyarrested her there in her
hospital bed for first degreemurder and attempted murder.
And at Teresa's trial, chillingevidence was revealed.
The office manager, Kate Carter,had come into the workplace that
morning, just like any othermorning.
She put on a pot of coffee andwas ready to start her day.

(42:57):
Teresa appeared in the doorwayand just shot her in cold blood,
no hesitation.
Kayleigh bleeding for about 30minutes while Teresa hid in one
of the offices until she heardDr.
Thomas and his wife come in.
When he went into the hallway,Teresa chased him down the hall,
shooting him in the side and inthe back as he tried to run to
safety, and then she left him todie.

(43:18):
So cold.
Her defense was that she shotthese people, but that she
wasn't in her right mind at thetime because of her body
dysmorphia.

SPEAKER_03 (43:28):
I mean that ain't gonna fly, I hope.

SPEAKER_02 (43:30):
Her lawyer spoke about how when they were
preparing for the trial, hecould hardly get her to talk
about the case without talkingabout how horribly disfigured
her breasts were and how theseevil doctors had ruined her
life.
Psychologists were brought in toevaluate her mental state.
They examined her letters, phonecalls, clinic visits, and the
meticulous notes that she keptabout every interaction.
Their conclusion was that shesuffered from delusional

(43:53):
obsession, a condition in whicha person's beliefs are
unshakable, impervious toevidence, and capable of
overriding moral and socialconstraints.
In lay terms, she believed sothoroughly in her version of
reality that she felt morallycompelled to act.
And in that moral compulsion laythe danger.
The trial began in February of1999 and quickly captured public

(44:14):
attention.
Headlines oscillated betweenhorror and fascination.
Patient turns killer, obsessionleads to murder, plastic surgery
case ends in tragedy.
The media's focus, oftensensational, obscured the
underlying human and systemicdynamic, a patient whose mental
state deteriorated unchecked, amedical system unprepared for
extreme obsession, and a tragedythat might have been prevented

(44:37):
with earlier intervention orawareness.
Courtroom testimony was asgripping as it was
heart-wrenching.
Staff described Teresa's visits,her letters and phone calls with
meticulous detail.
They recalled how polite,composed, and articulate she'd
seemed, even as her obsessionescalated.

(44:57):
Psychologists testified abouther fixation, explaining how her
perception of reality haddiverged entirely from objective
fact.
Experts described patterns ofdelusional thinking, obsessive
rumination, and cognitiverigidity, highlighting how these
factors had made rationalcommunication impossible.
The prosecution painted apicture of premeditation.

(45:19):
They emphasized the planningevident in her notes, the calm
deliberation of her actions, andthe fatal shooting itself.
They argued that her convictionand a false narrative had driven
her to kill, and that no medicalerror had occurred.
The defense, meanwhile,attempted to contextualize her
actions through the lens ofmental illness.
They highlighted her obsession,her inability to accept contrary

(45:41):
evidence, and the intensepsychological pressure she
placed on herself.
The courtroom became abattleground of narratives: law
versus psychiatry, evidenceversus perception, tragedy
versus crime.
Ultimately, the jury waspresented with a complex
portrait, a patient whoseobsession had overridden reason,
a competent surgeon whose onlyfault was being caught in the

(46:03):
trajectory of another person'sdelusion, and a legal system
tasked with balancing justice,mental health considerations,
and public safety.
In the end, Teresa Ramirez wasconvicted.
The jury found her guilty offirst-degree murder and
attempted murder and sentencedher to two life sentences
without the possibility ofparole.

(46:25):
Teresa's reaction to her verdictwas difficult to ascertain.
She sat without emotion on herface, silent and quiet.
Kay Carter died in 2012 fromcomplications related to the
shooting.
She left behind four children.
And Michael Tavis's family losthim.
His new wife, his children, andthe patients who relied on him

(46:47):
were left without him.
The trial left an indelible markon everyone involved, the
surviving staff and the medicalcommunity, the legal teams, and
even the public following thecase.
It highlighted vulnerabilitiesin patient management, the
subtle but real dangers ofobsession, the need for
vigilance, and recognizing earlywarning signs, and perhaps most
poignantly, it revealed thetragedy often arises not from a

(47:10):
single factor, but from aconfluence of personality,
circumstance, and systemic blindspots.

SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
For the surviving staff of Dr.
Thomas's clinic, the aftermathwas devastating.

SPEAKER_02 (47:23):
They returned to work in the weeks following the
shooting, but nothing was thesame.
The routine of patient care,once considered ordinary and
comforting, was now shadowed bya quiet awareness of how quickly
safety could be shattered.
Some staff sought counseling,and others quietly changed jobs
or left the field altogether.
The incident became a cautionarytale.

(47:46):
Check your patient's intensity,listen, but watch carefully.
The medical community at largeabsorbed a painful lesson.
While malpractice, proceduralerrors, and litigation were
perennial concerns, the Ramirezcase underscored an entirely
different risk.
The danger posed by a patientwhose obsession and delusion had

(48:07):
become fixated on a medicalteam.
This was a wake-up call foreveryone.
Policies began to evolve,security protocols, patient risk
assessment, and communicationstrategies were reconsidered.
While no system could havepredicted that Teresa Ramirez
specifically would have donewhat she did, the concept of
identifying, escalating,fixation became a focus in

(48:29):
medical safety.
Psychologists and psychiatristsstudying the case highlighted
the subtle signs that had beenmissed.
It wasn't the polite letters,the detailed questions, or even
the obsessive note-taking thatmade her dangerous.
It was the combination of rigidconviction, perceived betrayal,
and the inability to acceptevidence.
But by the time those traitswere apparent, the tragedy was

(48:51):
almost inevitable.
Experts emphasize earlyrecognition of obsessive
delusions, especially whenpaired with anger or fixation on
a particular authority figure,is critical in preventing
escalation.
Compassion is still essential,even here.
Teresa Ramirez was not born aviolent person.
She was a human being grapplingwith fixation, mistrust, and an

(49:15):
ability to reconcile perceivedinjustice.
Her actions were absolutelyunforgivable and the
consequences catastrophic.
But her psychology offerslessons about empathy, early
intervention, and thecomplexities of the human mind
that are invaluable for medicaland mental health professionals
alike.
The Bureau of Labor Statisticsreports that in the five years

(49:36):
from 2018 to 2023, healthcareworkers made up almost 75% of
all nonfatal workplace injuriesand illnesses due to violence.
The American College ofEmergency Physicians recently
found that violence against ERstaff has gone up 24% in the
past four years.
In one survey, 75% of all ERdogs reported getting at least

(49:59):
one threat of violence from apatient in the previous year.
And 30% of those had actuallybeen assaulted, some inside the
ER and some outside it.
Meaning a patient attacked themat home or somewhere else, which
is absolutely terrifying.
In the words of Dr.
Shamed Charles, an ED physician,quote, I have three rules for
early career medicalprofessionals.

(50:21):
Be on time, be prepared, andknow your patients.
And number four, never wear yourstethoscope around your neck,
end quote.
It's scary.
He goes on to say the fourthrule is because a patient once
tried to strangle one of hisfellow doctors with her
stethoscope.
Fortunately, she survived, butshe was scarred emotionally and
years later quit medicinealtogether.

(50:44):
For listeners, the story iscautionary and reflective.
It asks us to consider how do webalance trust and vigilance?
How do professionals navigatedifficult personalities without
underestimating potentialdanger?
And how do we, as a society,recognize the subtle signs of
obsession before they escalateinto tragedy?
There are no easy answers, onlylessons learned the hard way.

SPEAKER_03 (51:08):
That was a great it was a bad story, but a great
telling of the story.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You did a great job.
This this is a tough one, right?
Because I feel like it's sotragic.
She started out with the breastcancer and that, like going
through all of that.
It's just a shame that it turnedinto this.
Yeah.

(51:28):
And now you're living the restof your life out in prison.

SPEAKER_02 (51:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And people had to die for it,you know, or yeah.
Basically, yeah.
I mean, poor Kay ruined herlife.

SPEAKER_03 (51:42):
Well, yeah, her life was completely altered from what
997 to 2012.
Yeah.
She died like early because poorquality of life.

SPEAKER_04 (51:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:54):
So, and I realized after after writing this, this
is a totally different set ofcircumstances that I was like, I
just uh the reading the columncase where she's shot a man.
But I mean, let's face it, heyou know, I'm not really good
deserved, but but yeah, this isa patient, not an abused uh

(52:14):
woman.
So yeah, I'm gonna try andswitch it up.
No, so I'm gonna pick somethingdifferent.

SPEAKER_03 (52:22):
I felt like it was really different.
It didn't feel the same to me.
And the way you told the storywas different and gripping and
great.

SPEAKER_02 (52:32):
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Maybe once.
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SPEAKER_03 (54:23):
Yummy.
Time for a medical mishap.
Let's do it.
The the subject line is longtimelistener, first time emailer
with a medical mishap.
You'll appreciate.
Well, thank you.

(54:43):
Hi, Doctoring the Truth team.
Hello.
Hello.
I've been a loyal listener sinceyour body broker episode.
That was a good one.
I just said that was a good one.
This person did not write that.
I'll start over.
I've been a loyal listener sinceyour body broker episode, and I
love your show.

(55:03):
You help me pass the time duringmy long commute to work, and I
love your style.
I get to laugh, cringe, andlearn all in one show.
I'm finally writing in because Irecently had a healthcare mishap
that feels spiritually alignedwith your show.
Not life-threatening, notlawsuit worthy, but absolutely
the kind of thing whereafterward you sit alone in your

(55:27):
car and think, did thatseriously just happen?
Oh my gosh, tell me more.
A few months ago, I managed tobreak my wrist in an incident so
embarrassing I considered lyingabout it.
Yauchies, I've broken both ofmine.
This is Amanda talking.
And youch, that's not great.
So this the writer says, for abrief moment, I almost told

(55:49):
people I fell while rescuing achild from a purple building.
But the truth is I tripped on mydog's squeaky toy while trying
not to carry a plate of nachoson the couch.
Oh God, a nachos sounds soeffing good right now.

SPEAKER_01 (56:04):
Oh my god.
But also those squeaky toys.
I'm always tripping over thosedarn things.
They're everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 (56:09):
They're always everywhere.
Actually, Raven does this reallycute thing where, like, if she
wants a new toy, she'll carrythe one she's playing with and
put it in her doggy bin and thenshe'll get a new one.

SPEAKER_04 (56:20):
She's so well behaved and you're not gonna be
able to do it.
She's done a good girl.
Yeah.
Mine is to go to it to take themout, but will not put them back.
Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 (56:34):
So the nachos just survived the fall.
The dignity of this writer didnot, unfortunately.
The urgent care wasstraightforward enough.
X-ray, confirmation of theworld's least heroic fracture,
and a bright pink cast appliedby a tech who said, This will be
your friend for the next sixweeks, which bold promised.

(56:59):
I agree.
Yeah, casts are the worst.
The first week was fine,annoying, itchy, the usual cast
owner complaints, but on dayeight, I noticed something
strange, a faint smell.
Nothing terrible, justsuspicious.
Like a damp towel that's beenleft in the back of your car for
a week.

(57:21):
I cleaned around the edges ofthe cast and convinced myself it
was nothing.
By day 10, it was something.
And by day 12, it was a crimescene.
Oh no.
I couldn't ignore it anymore.
I went back to urgent care,hoping they wouldn't treat me
like a person who had marinatedtheir limb in swamp water.
The nurse walked in smiling,asked how I was doing, and then

(57:43):
without warning, took one sniffand staggered back like she'd
been hit with pepper spray.
Oh, wow, she said.
Not not a phrase you want tohear about your body.
No.
For anyone listening, we don'tmake comments about people's
bodies.
Okay.
No.
She asked, have you gotten itwet?

(58:05):
I said no.
She raised an eyebrow so high Ithought it might detach and
float away.
Are you sure?

SPEAKER_05 (58:11):
Oh my gosh, I want to smell her.

SPEAKER_03 (58:13):
I was sure.
I was sure.
I had been guarding the castfrom water like it was made of
sugar.
They decided to cut it open toinvestigate.
And as they cracked it apart, Ibraced myself for something
horrific.
Mold, fungus, maybe a portal tohell.
Oh my god, you are so funny.
But no, inside the cast was afruit fly.

(58:35):
One single, tiny, tragicallydeceased fruit fly.
Apparently, it had flown orfallen into the cast one day,
become trapped, and because ofthe universe enjoys comedy,
managed to create enoughmoisture and irritation to turn
my wrist into a lightly scentedbiological experiment.

(58:55):
The doctor took one look andsaid, perfectly deadpan.
Ah, this can happen.
LOL.
Do you see this happen, officer?
Yikes.
Sir, with all due respect, whatdo you mean this can happen?
Sorry, you and me are on thesame wavelength, writer.
We should hang out.
No part of medical school shouldinclude the phrase: insects

(59:18):
sometimes colonize casts.
That's not a thing we shouldaccept.
That's a thing we should banwith legislation.
I know.
They cleaned it out, disinfectedeverything, and gave me a new
cast.
This one was blue, which feltlike a witness protective
protection program for my arm.
Before I left, the nurse gave mea list of instructions:

(59:40):
hydration, elevation, painmanagement, yada yada, and then
slid a new one in at the bottom.
Try to avoid environments wherebugs may enter the cast.
Environments?
What environments am I going tobe stepping outside, avoid
fruit, declare war on nature?

(01:00:00):
The weirdest part is that Igenuinely do not know how the
fly got in.
I wasn't gardening, I wasn'twandering through the orchids
like some kind of Victorianfruit picker.
I was sitting on my sofawatching parks and wreck and
least hazardous environmentknown to man.
Anyway, fast forward a monthlater, the cast finally came

(01:00:21):
off.
My wrist healed nicely, my prideslightly less so.
And now I have a very irrationalfear of any small flying insect
that comes within three feet ofme.
Warranted.
If a gnat even looks at my arm,I relocate.
But honestly, it gave me astory, and it made me feel
slightly less cursed when Ilisten to your show and hear

(01:00:43):
that someone, somewhere outthere, has had absolutely a
worse day in healthcare than Idid.
Thanks for making me laugh atthe absurd stuff, and thanks for
proving that even the routinemedical moments sometimes
deserve their own episode ofDoctoring the Truth.
Stay safe and stay suspicious ofthis seemingly innocuous fruit
fly.

(01:01:03):
Love Taylor, a devoted listenerwith a fruit fly free arm and an
anti-bug force field of purewillpower.
Oh my god, Taylor, I'm obsessedwith you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:15):
You are amazing.
You're so funny.
What a great I mean, it's notlike I hope some other mishap
happens to you, but if you haveothers, please.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:23):
But like if you have any other ones.
Please send them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:27):
Beware of two details and um always protect
your nachos at any price.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:32):
This story reminded me of another husband's story.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:36):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:41):
Maybe.
Do you think we can get him onthe pod to read it?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:45):
Yeah, I mean not.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:46):
Yeah, I think we should.
I think he's like.
Raven, do you think your dadwill come on the pod?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:53):
He's kind of famous.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:54):
She's like, pick me, pick me.
Raven.
Oh my gosh, Raven.
Actually, you have a part in thestory too.
You do.
Oh my gosh, we should go.
We should should we consult yourdad about it?
Yeah, I think we should.
Okay, good talk.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:12):
Oi they well, with that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:16):
What can our listeners expect to hear next
week, Amanda?
This age-old question.
You know, I can't believe a weekhas already passed since we were
last here.
I know.
And you know what?
It's gonna be a surprise again.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:31):
Surprise for all of us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:34):
But I think I know what we're doing for a medical
mishap.
So we've got that going for us.
See, yeah.
Yeah, okay.
You're gonna talk to your dadabout that one, right?
Yeah, okay.
So until then, don't miss abeat.
Subscribe or following nope.
Subscribe or follow us onDoctoring the Truth wherever you

(01:02:56):
enjoy your podcast for storiesthat shock, intrigue, and
educate.
Trust, after all, is a delicatething.
You can text us directly on ourwebsite at DoctoringTheTruth at
Buzzsprout.com.
Email us your own story ideas,medical mishaps, and comments at
Doctoringthe Truth at Gmail.
And be sure to follow us onInstagram at Doctoring the Truth

(01:03:17):
Podcast and Facebook atDoctoring the Truth.
We are on TikTok at Doctoringthe Truth and at oddpod e-d a u
d.
Don't forget to download, rate,and review so we can be sure to
bring you more content nextweek.
And until then, y'all stay safe,stay bug free, and stay
suspicious.

(01:03:38):
Taylor, we love you.
We love you and stay on thescreen.
Okay.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:41):
Bye.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:46):
Okay.
Oh my gosh, you're doing themoose.
I was gagging about the gnatthing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:55):
I was like, why are you gonna throw your phone?

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:57):
Did you hit stop?
No.
Did you?
Oh, we should do that.
Three?
Or do you want to say more?
Three, two, one.
Goodbye.

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