April 25, 2024 • 30 mins
"Now that I think about it, I was actually slowly getting really burnt out because I had no life. I didn't really get to spend time with my family. My kids were young, so sometimes I would just go home after 7:00 with work not completed, just to see my kids and have some bedtime stories before tucking them into bed and then to do more work." -Mary Leung MD
In this episode of DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast, we hear first hand how our guest, Coach Mary Leung MD, went from working overtime to finishing her charting and getting home on time, resetting her work-life balance as a physician.
Join us as Coach Mary Leung MD offers her expert insights on strategic steps you can take to fast-track your journey toward having more personal time for what truly matters to you. Tune in to hear steps you can take, starting today, to finish your charting and get home on time, adding balance in your life by transforming how you live and work.
Coach Leung MD shares her personal journey of navigating the complexities of medical practice while pursuing personal fulfillment and happiness as a physician mom outside of hospital walls.
Mary Leung is a full time hematology and medical oncology physician practicing in New York, board certified in internal medicine, medical oncology, and hematology, and she's also a certified life coach, passionate about serving physicians who are stressed, overwhelmed, and burned out.
Dr Mary was working and charting after hours, many nights and weekends until life coaching transformed her life. She's now going home at least two and a half hours earlier than before, with all her clinical work completed for the day.
From the depths of her own experience, Dr Mary founded shining with gratitude MD. Her passion and mission is to guide other physicians through their unique situations so they can feel better, have more time outside of their clinical work, regain control, and have more clarity. Her hope is for physicians to rediscover joy in life and in medicine.
You can contact Dr Leung at -
Email: shiningwithgratitudemd@gmail.com
Website: www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mary.leung.18659
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-leung-md-9b52331b4/
Find full transcripts of DocWorking: The Whole Physician Podcast episodes on the DocWorking Blog https://docworking.com/blog/
DocWorking Coaches Directory - https://docworking.com/physician-coach-directory/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:04):
Welcome to Doc working the whole physician podcast, helping physicians achieve
the best in life and medicine.
We hope you enjoy today's episode.
Mary Leung MD (00:15):
Now that I think about it, I was actually slowly getting really burnt out
because I had no life.
I didn't really get to spend time with my
family.
My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
go home after 07:00 with work not completed,just to see my kids and have some bedtime
(00:38):
stories before tucking them into bed and then todo more work.
Dr Jen Barna (00:48):
Today, I'm so excited to bring to you our guest, doctor Mary Lung.
She's a full time hematology and medicaloncology physician practicing in New York,
board certified in internal medicine, medicaloncology, and hematology, and she's also a
certified life coach, passionate about servingphysicians who are stressed, overwhelmed, and
(01:11):
burned out, doctor Mary was working andcharting after hours, many nights and weekends
until life coaching transformed her life.
She's now going home at least two and a half
hours earlier than before, with all herclinical work completed for the day.
From the depths of her own experience, DoctorMary founded shining with gratitude, Md.
(01:35):
Her passion and mission is to guide otherphysicians through their unique situations so
they can feel better, have more time outsideof their clinical work, regain control, and
have more clarity.
Her hope is for physicians to rediscover joy
in life and in medicine.
(01:55):
Doctor Mary Long, welcome to Dockworking the
whole physician podcast.
Mary Leung MD (02:01):
Thank you for having me today.
Dr Jen Barna (02:02):
I'm so excited that you're here because I'm interested in your story.
I think so many of us have experienced asimilar story as physicians.
I think when we're going through that, it canfeel very isolating, and I really appreciate
that you're willing to share your story and bevulnerable and talk with us about it, because
(02:24):
I think so many of us are going throughsimilar struggles.
And I'm also excited to hear about the waysthat you're helping people to overcome this
and to accelerate their progress toward whatmatters most to them as individuals.
So please tell me a little bit about yourbackground and what got you to this place.
(02:47):
What did you experience?
Mary Leung MD (02:49):
Yeah, and thank you so much for having me, and it's an honor, and I'm happy to
share everything that I know and haveexperienced.
So a little bit about my background was, Ithink, like many physicians, you know, once we
decided to become a physician, it was a prettystraightforward path because we knew that we
(03:09):
had to satisfy certain school requirements,going through college, medical school,
residency training, sometimes fellowship, andthen you become the attending.
So one point I thought, oh, you know, that wasit?
And I just had to go to the next point.
And attending physician was kind of the end
(03:30):
point, I thought, and I would be, quoteunquote, at the top of the world.
And when I became an attending about 13 yearsago, I thought, wow, that was it.
I did it.
And then at the same time, I didn't really
feel any different from being a fellow.
Just the other day and I was starting off
(03:52):
joining a private practice, and my practicestarted to grow.
I was replacing another physician, and thenthree months later, an older physician
retired.
So I was getting more and more volume.
And before I knew it, I was seeing about 25 to30 patients a day doing hematology and
(04:16):
oncology.
At that time, I was still using paper charts.
And I think one good thing about paper chartswas actually people used to write less.
Of course, the challenge was that thehandwriting could be difficult to decipher.
So then slowly I built up that I was actuallycharting after hours because I wanted to keep
(04:41):
the patients as on time as possible accordingto their appointment schedule.
And before I knew it, I was going home past07:00, even though my last patient was
supposed to be done by around four, I wasmaking phone calls.
I was really trying to write the charts.
And the situation actually got worse when we
(05:04):
changed to electronic medical records.
And at that time, I thought that it was kind
of a normal thing.
I saw my partners, they were also charting
pretty late.
Certain ones didn't go as late as I did, but
then I also saw their notes was not ascomprehensive as I wanted my standard to be.
(05:27):
So, you know, now that I think about it, I wasactually slowly getting really burned out
because I had no life.
I didn't really get to spend time with my
family.
My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
go home after 07:00 with work not completed,just to see my kids and have some bedtime
(05:51):
stories before tuck them into bed, and then todo more work after hours.
So then I think day in and day out for yearsthat I just became, you know, not really
enjoying what I did because, you know, Ijoined medicine, really want to help people
and want to develop that special connectionwith my patients, not just to heal their
(06:17):
diagnosis, but really to have that specialhuman bond.
And so I didn't really enjoy doing thatanymore because I didn't have the energy,
mentally or physically to do it.
So then just fast forward to the pandemic.
I know no one wanted the pandemic, but I thinkthere's always something good coming out of
(06:38):
something bad.
And what came out of it was that for a while I
was just seeing a third of the patient modeand I had a taste of going home on time or
even earlier than usual.
So I thought, what if I could do this all the
time, even when I was back up to the fullpatient mode?
(06:59):
And just right at that time, I think there wasjust a godsend thing that I was introduced to
life coaching, and because I was not as busy,I had time to explore.
So I just made the leap of faith that Ithought anything would be better than where I
was emotionally.
And if they could help me somehow go home
(07:21):
earlier, why not?You know, I could just give it a try.
So I did.
I joined women physicians coaching program and
I was working with a coach, and with her help,with her guidance, in about three months I was
going home by 5530 with all my charts done.
And I think looking back right now, I've been
(07:43):
doing this, you know, for about two yearsconsistently going home by around five.
And looking back, I just couldn't believe Iwas, you know, living so long on the other
side.
And now I have a life.
I have time to spend with my family.
I even have time to, you know, coach other
(08:05):
physicians to do the same, you know, to managethe time, to manage their mind and really to
have a chance to enjoy the medicine that, youknow, what they went in for and enjoy life
outside of medicine.
Dr Jen Barna (08:19):
Well, I love what you're saying, and of course, I talk with people all the time
who are staying late, trying to complete theircharting.
And one thing that I hear people say is that,you know, I've always been good at time
management.
I got through medical school.
You know, I had to be good at time managementin order to get into medical school and
(08:42):
through residency.
So, you know, I don't think I can change this.
I think I've already optimized it.
You know, I don't really see how coaching
could make that much of a difference.
So for those people that are sort of in that
mindset, they would love for coaching to workfor them, but they also are a little bit
hesitant to take the leap.
First of all, what allowed you to make that
(09:02):
leap?And second, what would you say is the
difference between the time management that wecan figure out on our own and how a coach can
actually really accelerate your progress andproject you forward in a way that is very
difficult if not impossible to do on your own?What's the secret?
Mary Leung MD (09:24):
Yeah, well, I wouldn't say it's a secret, but of course, I'm happy to share my
own experience.
I think for me, it was out of desperation.
I just thought anything, whatever I did,anything different from what I did would be
better.
And so there was that hope that something
(09:45):
would be better and the belief that somethingwill be better.
I just didn't know what it was.
So I was willing to be open minded and to be
curious enough to try something, and thatworked for me.
And so I think for physicians who are like,I've always been working this way, I've been
(10:06):
efficient, and I just can't find any way to doit.
I'll say, okay, if you can't find it yourself,why not be a little bit curious and open
minded to have someone help you, andespecially for someone who has gone through
this to help you, because, yes, there's no onesize fit all, but even in coaching, you know,
(10:30):
it's tailor made for you to see what you need.
And I think one of the biggest thing is really
to understand or to know exactly what you wantfor me is why do I want to go home on time?
Is because, yes, I want to be efficient, butthe ultimate goal for me is to, because I want
(10:50):
life outside of medicine and to spend it withmy family.
So that is my backbone of why I want to dowhat I want to do.
So I think for physicians, it is important tounderstand what they want to do, why they want
to finish the clinic day on time.
So the other thing is to really believe that
(11:12):
they can do it, even though in the beginning,I didn't think that it was possible, but I was
like, okay, there's this little slight chancethat if I try it, I could do it.
If I didn't try it, I know for sure that Icouldn't do it.
So I think it's just that belief that you cando it, and the next thing is really to commit
(11:33):
to it, to commit to trying new things, totrying different methods, and just really
carry that more positive energy or attitudethat, hey, it is possible to do it, as opposed
to saying that, you know what?I haven't been able to do it for years.
What makes you think that I can do it now?But just focusing on the possible and what
(11:56):
kind of energy they're using to fuel you, youknow, are you using the frustration, the
stress, the anger, or are you using, you know,like, that you're being motivated, that you're
focused, that, you know, or the hope, thecontent, you know, that type of energy?
I think the result will be very different.
And the last thing is actually just do it.
(12:18):
I think just, of course, having the guidancehelps because that opens you up to different
possibilities that you probably haven'tthought of.
And sometimes it is that, you know, maybe it'salso within you that you just need someone to
point it out, to say, all right, that's it.
And I have it all along.
And I believe that every physician has thepotential to finish their clinic day on time,
(12:44):
and we just need to sometimes find differentmethods to do it.
Sometimes we just need a coach to help you ora mentor to point out the right direction.
Dr Jen Barna (12:56):
Absolutely.
And you bring up an interesting point in your
description there because I started out withthe question saying that what many people say
to me is that, you know, I think I've alreadyoptimized this, but it's just not enough, you
know?And so in a way, they're self confident, but
(13:16):
in a way, they're also having some self doubtbecause they don't really know how to go
forward.
And I think that can be sort of a circular
pattern that's hard to break free of, thatsort of combination, if you will, of self
doubt and confidence.
And so as a coach, I wonder if you can comment
(13:37):
about that and how you see that affectingphysicians.
Mary Leung MD (13:42):
Yes. So self doubt, I think many of us equate that to, you know, we're
doubting our ability to do things, andsometimes it can even stop us from moving
forward or making a decision because we'reafraid that we would do something wrong or not
doing something good enough.
And, yes, that sometimes can be paralyzing
(14:04):
you.
But I think of self doubt, the opposite is of
self confidence, and it's not a black andwhite thing.
I think self doubt and self confidence is likea spectrum, or my coach actually described me,
to me as a pendulum.
It's kind of like you kind of swing at the two
(14:26):
extremes at all the time.
And so I think you were able to find the right
position at where you have enough selfconfidence to go forward, but also a little
sprinkle of self doubt to question that, hey,is this the best way to do, or can I learn a
(14:48):
better way to do things?Even better.
But you can still move forward.
So I think that's kind of the happy medium
that we can work with self doubt and selfconfidence, because I think as long as we
live, we always have self doubt and we alwayshave self confidence.
So we have to realize where we're at.
Is the self doubt really stopping us from
(15:10):
moving forward, or is it helping us because,you know, we want to do things better, but we
have also the self confidence to really carryout and execute the things that we want to do.
Dr Jen Barna (15:23):
Beautifully said.
Do you have any tips for someone who might be
listening, who could walk away from thisconversation with something that they could
implement right away in terms of helpingthemselves to move in the direction of
finishing charting on time?
Mary Leung MD (15:41):
Yeah. So I think one of the most important thing is how you start your
day.
So when you wake up in the morning, I'll share
what I do, or what I've been doing sincecoaching is I wake up in the morning being
thankful, and I'm grateful for just something.
It can be anything.
It can be that I'm grateful for a beautifulday, blue sky, or I'm grateful to be alive, or
(16:06):
I'm grateful that I don't need the alarm towake me up, you know, something like that.
And when you're grateful, it just carries outmore positive energy to move you on.
And when I get to my clinic, I'm mainly doingoutpatient care that I just, you know, decided
(16:26):
that it's going to be a good day.
You know, I just say that today is going to be
a good day.
No matter what.
I expect surprises to happen, and when theyhappen, I was like, oh, that's a surprise, and
I'll just see how I can deal with it.
I always share the example, which is not too
long ago, that I was just in the clinic seeingpatients, 02:00 in the afternoon.
(16:48):
All of a sudden there was a blackout.
It was because the transformer exploded, and
so a few blocks was all blacked out, and wewere like, okay, what do we do with all the
patients?And we couldn't even get the blood drawn to
spin because we had no power and no electronicmedical records.
So we were just trying to figure out, okay,for patients who need a chemo, we'll just send
(17:10):
them out to have blood draw.
We're just kind of delegating things rather
than arguing why that happened.
We use more energy to figure out the solution.
So I think the important thing is really torealize what we can control and what we cannot
control.
And what we cannot control is we'll just deal
with it as they come.
(17:32):
And I think with that mindset, it's just
easier to go through the day.
And the other important thing, I think, more
practical thing to do is really to do yourbest to see the patient and do the chart right
away, or even start writing the chart beforeseeing the patient, and write some while
you're talking to the patient, and then finishit up, because if you're just spending a few
(17:57):
more minutes or even five, six more minutes tofinish your chart before seeing the next
patient.
You are done with that patient, and when you
go to the other patient room, you are focused.
You are just putting your concentration on
that particular patient as opposed to thinkingback, like, three patients before that, oh, I
(18:21):
forgot to write something, or, oh, I had toorder this.
And so I think, you know, with me practicingdoing that consistently is I actually find
that I spend less time charting because at theend of the day, my old belief was that, oh,
yeah, you know what?I'm already 1520 minutes late.
(18:41):
Let me call in the next patient so thatthey're not waiting for so long.
But then I suffer at the end of the daybecause came 435 o'clock when I finally
finished seeing the patients, I had all thesecharts to write.
Like, sometimes it could be ten, sometimes itcould even be more charts.
After seeing 25, 27 patients and I was gettingtired, my brain started to shut down and I
(19:06):
started to mix things up.
I was like, oh, did I miss something?
And it would take me at least two to threetimes more time to write the same chart.
So, you know, it's better off to have the nextpatient wait a few minutes longer.
Then you just spend the whole day or hourslater to write a chart.
And it may not be as good as if you write itthen and there.
(19:30):
The other one thing I want to share is also toreally be, I guess, be mindful of
distractions.
You know, there are going to be nurses calling
you for things or their phone calls.
So if you can set up in your office in a way
that, oh, you know, really don't bother me ordon't disturb me in the middle of patient
(19:52):
encounters unless it's an emergency, and youtell them exactly, you know, what the
situation is, that they can disrupt you.
I think that will minimize the distractions
when you're in the hospital, like, say, beinga hospitalist or inpatient care, you know,
when nurses call you or they page you, see ifyou can just finish quickly what you're doing
(20:12):
before calling them back.
Because we cannot really multitask.
In reality, we're just task switching veryquickly.
So every time you switch a task, it takes youthat much time to recover and concentrate on
the next thing.
And I think the last thing I'll share is to
(20:33):
actually schedule some breaks because we needto refuel.
And I guess as outpatient, probably midday,the lunchtime is a good time to take a little
break because you need to refuel physically.
You need to make sure that you're hydrated,
you need a bathroom break, you know, and justwalk around a little bit because, you know,
(20:55):
these days, I know for the electronic medicalrecords, we're mostly sitting down in front of
the computer.
Your eyes even need to break.
So I think sometimes with just a little break,even a few minutes when you go back to it in
the afternoon, you're just that much morerefreshed and be able to focus and just remind
(21:16):
yourself throughout the day the goal, because,you know, you want to go home on time for
whatever reason it is, and just really behopeful and generate the kind of positive
energy that you want to generate.
And just really, it sounds pretty simple.
It's not necessarily the easiest thing to do,but it is definitely possible because I'm a
(21:41):
living and breathing example and I'm just anordinary person, a physician, and it didn't
happen overnight, but it's definitely doable.
Dr Jen Barna (21:51):
I really love the examples that you're giving there because they are directly
applicable.
And for all of the steps you've outlined, I
can see in my practice how much putting thosesteps to use has helped me as well.
Like, for example, when I'm getting called,I'm a radiologist, so when I'm getting called
(22:11):
on patients and I'm making diagnosticdecisions and I have multiple calls coming in,
multiple patients kind of scheduled fromdifferent places at the same time, I used to
listen, you know, look at the case, make adecision and give a verbal decision and then
save it to dictate later because I had myphone was ringing off the hook and I would go
to the next case and the next case and thenext case and keep notes.
(22:33):
But what I found is, of course, at the end ofthe day, when you open up a case that you
started earlier, you have to basically startfrom the beginning.
So you're investing much more time per casebecause you have to look at everything all
over again.
You have to be sure that, you know, your mind
is fresh on every single thing that'shappened, whereas in real time, you're looking
at that, you're making a decision.
(22:55):
You don't have to later revisit how you got to
that decision before you dictate.
So it saves so much time to just say, hold on
just a minute, I'm going to finish this casethat I'm on and I'll get right to you.
And it only, you know, is a couple of minuteswait for whoever's wanting to talk to you next
while you finish what you're doing.
(23:16):
And I can imagine if you're in the clinic and
you're seeing patients, it must be the samepressure.
You know, that the rooms are full, people arewaiting, but you really have to just take that
time for the sake of the patient and for thesake of yourself, and just finish that
patient's notes, everything about your planbefore you go on to the next patient.
And it does sound easier than it is to do, butonce you change the way you operate and
(23:43):
everyone around you gets used to it, then itactually works really well.
And I love also your advice about takingbreaks, which I think is something that is.
It's easy to just glance down at your phoneand there was, you know, a five minute break
that you could have taken where you could havewalked outside for five minutes, but instead
(24:04):
you checked your emails or you looked at thenews or something like that.
It's so easy to slip into that.
But if you're aware of it, you can
intentionally make a plan that you're going toaim for a five minute break at a specific
point that you know that's possible.
And then five minutes, no one will complain
(24:24):
that you're away.
Mary Leung MD (24:26):
Exactly.
Dr Jen Barna (24:26):
Outside, you can take the long way around the building, outside to the
cafeteria or wherever you're getting lunch orwhatever the case may be.
But I think you, you know, you're reallyhitting some important points, which sounds
simple, but I think having an accountabilitypartner to walk you through, really making
those into new habits, can be a huge gamechanger.
(24:47):
I have one other question for you, which I'mjust curious.
Mom to mom or physician mom to physician mom,how has your education to become a life coach
and the transformation that you personallyexperienced, how has that influenced the way
you parent?
Mary Leung MD (25:04):
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm happier.
So I think just being happier and moregrateful in general, that is kind of some
unspoken language that my family canexperience.
So I think they can experience that.
I am just, in general, a more positive person,
(25:25):
and it's just easier to talk to.
And for me, it's.
I think my kids are, you know, they don'tlisten to me all the time, which is normal,
but I think that we're able to have more indepth conversations.
And I also ask them at night what went well.
(25:47):
And that's one of the things that my coach
asked me on a regular basis, like what wentwell?
So I have my kids tell me, okay, what wentwell?
And kind of just end the night or the day witha nice note to remember, to really celebrate
little things, because why not?Yeah, things have happened already.
(26:08):
And.
And I think the more we celebrate, the more we
generate a more pleasant emotion.
And since we all have to experience the
pleasant and unpleasant emotions, why not dosomething to make our pleasant ones have more
airtime?And I think that feels better.
So I think parenting part is really great.
(26:31):
I think some of my friends, they're not super
happy or they feel like, oh, you know, whenthe kids are off or, you know, in the summer
vacation time, they kind of say that, oh, youknow, I have to deal with them all day long.
To me, it's a privilege.
I feel like, you know, like even being able to
(26:52):
drive them to their swimming lessons or beingable to participate certain, you know, school
things, to me, it's great.
And even, I know it sounds funny, like, even
being able to do dishes, you know, for me,it's kind of a great thing because I feel
like, oh, you know, I'm working all thesehours and of course, now, you know, I'm able
(27:13):
to match the time so much better.
So I actually have the privilege to do
housework.
I know it sounds kind of silly, but it's just
like, you know, I think to me, that's alsopart of parenting, to show them that, hey, you
know, you can do this, and I show them how todo laundry.
And I also spend time with my daughter.
Like, we would cook or bake, you know, and I
(27:35):
actually teach her how to make egg tarts,which is, you know, one of the biggest Hong
Kong dessert to do.
So it's a lot of steps, but she's able to do
it.
So we're able to just share that special bond.
And I think love is expressed in differentways.
And I think to me, to be able to do these kindof day to day little things, I would just
(27:57):
cherish that forever in my life.
Dr Jen Barna (28:00):
Yes. That is so beautifully said.
I really love that idea of asking yourself andpeople that you love, especially your kids, if
you have kids, what went well today?What a wonderful point of reflection at the
end of the day and way to ask for aconversation with a child when if you just
(28:21):
say, how was your day?You likely get a fine, you know, a one word
answer.
That's such a wonderful question and a way to
help someone to reflect on the positive pointsfrom the day.
Because as you mentioned, there are thousandsof thoughts that go through our mind and there
are thousands of stimuli that we can choose tonotice or not notice at any given point.
(28:43):
And so choosing to notice the positive onescan have a huge impact on your life as well.
Maybe we could even have you share your recipewith us and we'll include it in the show
notes.
Mary Leung MD (28:57):
Okay, I don't have a set one, but yes, I'm happy to share anything.
Dr Jen Barna (29:02):
Awesome.
Well, doctor Mary Long, thank you so much for
coming and sharing so much wisdom with us ontoday's episode of dockworking the whole
physician podcast.
Please let us know how people can reach you if
they want to reach out and work with you as acoach or if they have additional questions for
(29:23):
you.
Mary Leung MD (29:24):
Yes. So you can email me at shiningwithgratitudemd@gmail.com and you can
also visit my website atwww.shiningwithgratitudemd.com I publish a
blog post twice a week on the same website,www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com forward slash
(29:45):
blog.
You can also find me on Facebook, marylung and
linkedin at marylungmd.
Dr Jen Barna (29:51):
Terrific.
Thank you again for sharing your wisdom and I
look forward to future conversations with you.
Mary Leung MD (29:57):
Yes, thank you so much for having.
Dr Jen Barna (29:59):
Me today and thank you for joining us listening to this conversation and
we hope that you will join us for futureconversations on the doc working whole
physician podcast.
Announcer (30:18):
Thank you for listening to Doc working the whole physician podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, then please giveus a five star review wherever you listen to
your podcast.
This will really help us reach a larger
audience.
You can find more resources to help you
achieve the best in your life on our website.
Doc working.
Welcome to Doc working the whole physician podcast, helping physicians achieve
the best in life and medicine.
We hope you enjoy today's episode.
Mary Leung MD (00:15):
Now that I think about it, I was actually slowly getting really burnt out
because I had no life.
I didn't really get to spend time with my
family.
My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
go home after 07:00 with work not completed,just to see my kids and have some bedtime
(00:38):
stories before tucking them into bed and then todo more work.
Dr Jen Barna (00:48):
Today, I'm so excited to bring to you our guest, doctor Mary Lung.
She's a full time hematology and medicaloncology physician practicing in New York,
board certified in internal medicine, medicaloncology, and hematology, and she's also a
certified life coach, passionate about servingphysicians who are stressed, overwhelmed, and
(01:11):
burned out, doctor Mary was working andcharting after hours, many nights and weekends
until life coaching transformed her life.
She's now going home at least two and a half
hours earlier than before, with all herclinical work completed for the day.
From the depths of her own experience, DoctorMary founded shining with gratitude, Md.
(01:35):
Her passion and mission is to guide otherphysicians through their unique situations so
they can feel better, have more time outsideof their clinical work, regain control, and
have more clarity.
Her hope is for physicians to rediscover joy
in life and in medicine.
(01:55):
Doctor Mary Long, welcome to Dockworking the
whole physician podcast.
Mary Leung MD (02:01):
Thank you for having me today.
Dr Jen Barna (02:02):
I'm so excited that you're here because I'm interested in your story.
I think so many of us have experienced asimilar story as physicians.
I think when we're going through that, it canfeel very isolating, and I really appreciate
that you're willing to share your story and bevulnerable and talk with us about it, because
(02:24):
I think so many of us are going throughsimilar struggles.
And I'm also excited to hear about the waysthat you're helping people to overcome this
and to accelerate their progress toward whatmatters most to them as individuals.
So please tell me a little bit about yourbackground and what got you to this place.
(02:47):
What did you experience?
Mary Leung MD (02:49):
Yeah, and thank you so much for having me, and it's an honor, and I'm happy to
share everything that I know and haveexperienced.
So a little bit about my background was, Ithink, like many physicians, you know, once we
decided to become a physician, it was a prettystraightforward path because we knew that we
(03:09):
had to satisfy certain school requirements,going through college, medical school,
residency training, sometimes fellowship, andthen you become the attending.
So one point I thought, oh, you know, that wasit?
And I just had to go to the next point.
And attending physician was kind of the end
(03:30):
point, I thought, and I would be, quoteunquote, at the top of the world.
And when I became an attending about 13 yearsago, I thought, wow, that was it.
I did it.
And then at the same time, I didn't really
feel any different from being a fellow.
Just the other day and I was starting off
(03:52):
joining a private practice, and my practicestarted to grow.
I was replacing another physician, and thenthree months later, an older physician
retired.
So I was getting more and more volume.
And before I knew it, I was seeing about 25 to30 patients a day doing hematology and
(04:16):
oncology.
At that time, I was still using paper charts.
And I think one good thing about paper chartswas actually people used to write less.
Of course, the challenge was that thehandwriting could be difficult to decipher.
So then slowly I built up that I was actuallycharting after hours because I wanted to keep
(04:41):
the patients as on time as possible accordingto their appointment schedule.
And before I knew it, I was going home past07:00, even though my last patient was
supposed to be done by around four, I wasmaking phone calls.
I was really trying to write the charts.
And the situation actually got worse when we
(05:04):
changed to electronic medical records.
And at that time, I thought that it was kind
of a normal thing.
I saw my partners, they were also charting
pretty late.
Certain ones didn't go as late as I did, but
then I also saw their notes was not ascomprehensive as I wanted my standard to be.
(05:27):
So, you know, now that I think about it, I wasactually slowly getting really burned out
because I had no life.
I didn't really get to spend time with my
family.
My kids were young, so sometimes I would just
go home after 07:00 with work not completed,just to see my kids and have some bedtime
(05:51):
stories before tuck them into bed, and then todo more work after hours.
So then I think day in and day out for yearsthat I just became, you know, not really
enjoying what I did because, you know, Ijoined medicine, really want to help people
and want to develop that special connectionwith my patients, not just to heal their
(06:17):
diagnosis, but really to have that specialhuman bond.
And so I didn't really enjoy doing thatanymore because I didn't have the energy,
mentally or physically to do it.
So then just fast forward to the pandemic.
I know no one wanted the pandemic, but I thinkthere's always something good coming out of
(06:38):
something bad.
And what came out of it was that for a while I
was just seeing a third of the patient modeand I had a taste of going home on time or
even earlier than usual.
So I thought, what if I could do this all the
time, even when I was back up to the fullpatient mode?
(06:59):
And just right at that time, I think there wasjust a godsend thing that I was introduced to
life coaching, and because I was not as busy,I had time to explore.
So I just made the leap of faith that Ithought anything would be better than where I
was emotionally.
And if they could help me somehow go home
(07:21):
earlier, why not?You know, I could just give it a try.
So I did.
I joined women physicians coaching program and
I was working with a coach, and with her help,with her guidance, in about three months I was
going home by 5530 with all my charts done.
And I think looking back right now, I've been
(07:43):
doing this, you know, for about two yearsconsistently going home by around five.
And looking back, I just couldn't believe Iwas, you know, living so long on the other
side.
And now I have a life.
I have time to spend with my family.
I even have time to, you know, coach other
(08:05):
physicians to do the same, you know, to managethe time, to manage their mind and really to
have a chance to enjoy the medicine that, youknow, what they went in for and enjoy life
outside of medicine.
Dr Jen Barna (08:19):
Well, I love what you're saying, and of course, I talk with people all the time
who are staying late, trying to complete theircharting.
And one thing that I hear people say is that,you know, I've always been good at time
management.
I got through medical school.
You know, I had to be good at time managementin order to get into medical school and
(08:42):
through residency.
So, you know, I don't think I can change this.
I think I've already optimized it.
You know, I don't really see how coaching
could make that much of a difference.
So for those people that are sort of in that
mindset, they would love for coaching to workfor them, but they also are a little bit
hesitant to take the leap.
First of all, what allowed you to make that
(09:02):
leap?And second, what would you say is the
difference between the time management that wecan figure out on our own and how a coach can
actually really accelerate your progress andproject you forward in a way that is very
difficult if not impossible to do on your own?What's the secret?
Mary Leung MD (09:24):
Yeah, well, I wouldn't say it's a secret, but of course, I'm happy to share my
own experience.
I think for me, it was out of desperation.
I just thought anything, whatever I did,anything different from what I did would be
better.
And so there was that hope that something
(09:45):
would be better and the belief that somethingwill be better.
I just didn't know what it was.
So I was willing to be open minded and to be
curious enough to try something, and thatworked for me.
And so I think for physicians who are like,I've always been working this way, I've been
(10:06):
efficient, and I just can't find any way to doit.
I'll say, okay, if you can't find it yourself,why not be a little bit curious and open
minded to have someone help you, andespecially for someone who has gone through
this to help you, because, yes, there's no onesize fit all, but even in coaching, you know,
(10:30):
it's tailor made for you to see what you need.
And I think one of the biggest thing is really
to understand or to know exactly what you wantfor me is why do I want to go home on time?
Is because, yes, I want to be efficient, butthe ultimate goal for me is to, because I want
(10:50):
life outside of medicine and to spend it withmy family.
So that is my backbone of why I want to dowhat I want to do.
So I think for physicians, it is important tounderstand what they want to do, why they want
to finish the clinic day on time.
So the other thing is to really believe that
(11:12):
they can do it, even though in the beginning,I didn't think that it was possible, but I was
like, okay, there's this little slight chancethat if I try it, I could do it.
If I didn't try it, I know for sure that Icouldn't do it.
So I think it's just that belief that you cando it, and the next thing is really to commit
(11:33):
to it, to commit to trying new things, totrying different methods, and just really
carry that more positive energy or attitudethat, hey, it is possible to do it, as opposed
to saying that, you know what?I haven't been able to do it for years.
What makes you think that I can do it now?But just focusing on the possible and what
(11:56):
kind of energy they're using to fuel you, youknow, are you using the frustration, the
stress, the anger, or are you using, you know,like, that you're being motivated, that you're
focused, that, you know, or the hope, thecontent, you know, that type of energy?
I think the result will be very different.
And the last thing is actually just do it.
(12:18):
I think just, of course, having the guidancehelps because that opens you up to different
possibilities that you probably haven'tthought of.
And sometimes it is that, you know, maybe it'salso within you that you just need someone to
point it out, to say, all right, that's it.
And I have it all along.
And I believe that every physician has thepotential to finish their clinic day on time,
(12:44):
and we just need to sometimes find differentmethods to do it.
Sometimes we just need a coach to help you ora mentor to point out the right direction.
Dr Jen Barna (12:56):
Absolutely.
And you bring up an interesting point in your
description there because I started out withthe question saying that what many people say
to me is that, you know, I think I've alreadyoptimized this, but it's just not enough, you
know?And so in a way, they're self confident, but
(13:16):
in a way, they're also having some self doubtbecause they don't really know how to go
forward.
And I think that can be sort of a circular
pattern that's hard to break free of, thatsort of combination, if you will, of self
doubt and confidence.
And so as a coach, I wonder if you can comment
(13:37):
about that and how you see that affectingphysicians.
Mary Leung MD (13:42):
Yes. So self doubt, I think many of us equate that to, you know, we're
doubting our ability to do things, andsometimes it can even stop us from moving
forward or making a decision because we'reafraid that we would do something wrong or not
doing something good enough.
And, yes, that sometimes can be paralyzing
(14:04):
you.
But I think of self doubt, the opposite is of
self confidence, and it's not a black andwhite thing.
I think self doubt and self confidence is likea spectrum, or my coach actually described me,
to me as a pendulum.
It's kind of like you kind of swing at the two
(14:26):
extremes at all the time.
And so I think you were able to find the right
position at where you have enough selfconfidence to go forward, but also a little
sprinkle of self doubt to question that, hey,is this the best way to do, or can I learn a
(14:48):
better way to do things?Even better.
But you can still move forward.
So I think that's kind of the happy medium
that we can work with self doubt and selfconfidence, because I think as long as we
live, we always have self doubt and we alwayshave self confidence.
So we have to realize where we're at.
Is the self doubt really stopping us from
(15:10):
moving forward, or is it helping us because,you know, we want to do things better, but we
have also the self confidence to really carryout and execute the things that we want to do.
Dr Jen Barna (15:23):
Beautifully said.
Do you have any tips for someone who might be
listening, who could walk away from thisconversation with something that they could
implement right away in terms of helpingthemselves to move in the direction of
finishing charting on time?
Mary Leung MD (15:41):
Yeah. So I think one of the most important thing is how you start your
day.
So when you wake up in the morning, I'll share
what I do, or what I've been doing sincecoaching is I wake up in the morning being
thankful, and I'm grateful for just something.
It can be anything.
It can be that I'm grateful for a beautifulday, blue sky, or I'm grateful to be alive, or
(16:06):
I'm grateful that I don't need the alarm towake me up, you know, something like that.
And when you're grateful, it just carries outmore positive energy to move you on.
And when I get to my clinic, I'm mainly doingoutpatient care that I just, you know, decided
(16:26):
that it's going to be a good day.
You know, I just say that today is going to be
a good day.
No matter what.
I expect surprises to happen, and when theyhappen, I was like, oh, that's a surprise, and
I'll just see how I can deal with it.
I always share the example, which is not too
long ago, that I was just in the clinic seeingpatients, 02:00 in the afternoon.
(16:48):
All of a sudden there was a blackout.
It was because the transformer exploded, and
so a few blocks was all blacked out, and wewere like, okay, what do we do with all the
patients?And we couldn't even get the blood drawn to
spin because we had no power and no electronicmedical records.
So we were just trying to figure out, okay,for patients who need a chemo, we'll just send
(17:10):
them out to have blood draw.
We're just kind of delegating things rather
than arguing why that happened.
We use more energy to figure out the solution.
So I think the important thing is really torealize what we can control and what we cannot
control.
And what we cannot control is we'll just deal
with it as they come.
(17:32):
And I think with that mindset, it's just
easier to go through the day.
And the other important thing, I think, more
practical thing to do is really to do yourbest to see the patient and do the chart right
away, or even start writing the chart beforeseeing the patient, and write some while
you're talking to the patient, and then finishit up, because if you're just spending a few
(17:57):
more minutes or even five, six more minutes tofinish your chart before seeing the next
patient.
You are done with that patient, and when you
go to the other patient room, you are focused.
You are just putting your concentration on
that particular patient as opposed to thinkingback, like, three patients before that, oh, I
(18:21):
forgot to write something, or, oh, I had toorder this.
And so I think, you know, with me practicingdoing that consistently is I actually find
that I spend less time charting because at theend of the day, my old belief was that, oh,
yeah, you know what?I'm already 1520 minutes late.
(18:41):
Let me call in the next patient so thatthey're not waiting for so long.
But then I suffer at the end of the daybecause came 435 o'clock when I finally
finished seeing the patients, I had all thesecharts to write.
Like, sometimes it could be ten, sometimes itcould even be more charts.
After seeing 25, 27 patients and I was gettingtired, my brain started to shut down and I
(19:06):
started to mix things up.
I was like, oh, did I miss something?
And it would take me at least two to threetimes more time to write the same chart.
So, you know, it's better off to have the nextpatient wait a few minutes longer.
Then you just spend the whole day or hourslater to write a chart.
And it may not be as good as if you write itthen and there.
(19:30):
The other one thing I want to share is also toreally be, I guess, be mindful of
distractions.
You know, there are going to be nurses calling
you for things or their phone calls.
So if you can set up in your office in a way
that, oh, you know, really don't bother me ordon't disturb me in the middle of patient
(19:52):
encounters unless it's an emergency, and youtell them exactly, you know, what the
situation is, that they can disrupt you.
I think that will minimize the distractions
when you're in the hospital, like, say, beinga hospitalist or inpatient care, you know,
when nurses call you or they page you, see ifyou can just finish quickly what you're doing
(20:12):
before calling them back.
Because we cannot really multitask.
In reality, we're just task switching veryquickly.
So every time you switch a task, it takes youthat much time to recover and concentrate on
the next thing.
And I think the last thing I'll share is to
(20:33):
actually schedule some breaks because we needto refuel.
And I guess as outpatient, probably midday,the lunchtime is a good time to take a little
break because you need to refuel physically.
You need to make sure that you're hydrated,
you need a bathroom break, you know, and justwalk around a little bit because, you know,
(20:55):
these days, I know for the electronic medicalrecords, we're mostly sitting down in front of
the computer.
Your eyes even need to break.
So I think sometimes with just a little break,even a few minutes when you go back to it in
the afternoon, you're just that much morerefreshed and be able to focus and just remind
(21:16):
yourself throughout the day the goal, because,you know, you want to go home on time for
whatever reason it is, and just really behopeful and generate the kind of positive
energy that you want to generate.
And just really, it sounds pretty simple.
It's not necessarily the easiest thing to do,but it is definitely possible because I'm a
(21:41):
living and breathing example and I'm just anordinary person, a physician, and it didn't
happen overnight, but it's definitely doable.
Dr Jen Barna (21:51):
I really love the examples that you're giving there because they are directly
applicable.
And for all of the steps you've outlined, I
can see in my practice how much putting thosesteps to use has helped me as well.
Like, for example, when I'm getting called,I'm a radiologist, so when I'm getting called
(22:11):
on patients and I'm making diagnosticdecisions and I have multiple calls coming in,
multiple patients kind of scheduled fromdifferent places at the same time, I used to
listen, you know, look at the case, make adecision and give a verbal decision and then
save it to dictate later because I had myphone was ringing off the hook and I would go
to the next case and the next case and thenext case and keep notes.
(22:33):
But what I found is, of course, at the end ofthe day, when you open up a case that you
started earlier, you have to basically startfrom the beginning.
So you're investing much more time per casebecause you have to look at everything all
over again.
You have to be sure that, you know, your mind
is fresh on every single thing that'shappened, whereas in real time, you're looking
at that, you're making a decision.
(22:55):
You don't have to later revisit how you got to
that decision before you dictate.
So it saves so much time to just say, hold on
just a minute, I'm going to finish this casethat I'm on and I'll get right to you.
And it only, you know, is a couple of minuteswait for whoever's wanting to talk to you next
while you finish what you're doing.
(23:16):
And I can imagine if you're in the clinic and
you're seeing patients, it must be the samepressure.
You know, that the rooms are full, people arewaiting, but you really have to just take that
time for the sake of the patient and for thesake of yourself, and just finish that
patient's notes, everything about your planbefore you go on to the next patient.
And it does sound easier than it is to do, butonce you change the way you operate and
(23:43):
everyone around you gets used to it, then itactually works really well.
And I love also your advice about takingbreaks, which I think is something that is.
It's easy to just glance down at your phoneand there was, you know, a five minute break
that you could have taken where you could havewalked outside for five minutes, but instead
(24:04):
you checked your emails or you looked at thenews or something like that.
It's so easy to slip into that.
But if you're aware of it, you can
intentionally make a plan that you're going toaim for a five minute break at a specific
point that you know that's possible.
And then five minutes, no one will complain
(24:24):
that you're away.
Mary Leung MD (24:26):
Exactly.
Dr Jen Barna (24:26):
Outside, you can take the long way around the building, outside to the
cafeteria or wherever you're getting lunch orwhatever the case may be.
But I think you, you know, you're reallyhitting some important points, which sounds
simple, but I think having an accountabilitypartner to walk you through, really making
those into new habits, can be a huge gamechanger.
(24:47):
I have one other question for you, which I'mjust curious.
Mom to mom or physician mom to physician mom,how has your education to become a life coach
and the transformation that you personallyexperienced, how has that influenced the way
you parent?
Mary Leung MD (25:04):
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm happier.
So I think just being happier and moregrateful in general, that is kind of some
unspoken language that my family canexperience.
So I think they can experience that.
I am just, in general, a more positive person,
(25:25):
and it's just easier to talk to.
And for me, it's.
I think my kids are, you know, they don'tlisten to me all the time, which is normal,
but I think that we're able to have more indepth conversations.
And I also ask them at night what went well.
(25:47):
And that's one of the things that my coach
asked me on a regular basis, like what wentwell?
So I have my kids tell me, okay, what wentwell?
And kind of just end the night or the day witha nice note to remember, to really celebrate
little things, because why not?Yeah, things have happened already.
(26:08):
And.
And I think the more we celebrate, the more we
generate a more pleasant emotion.
And since we all have to experience the
pleasant and unpleasant emotions, why not dosomething to make our pleasant ones have more
airtime?And I think that feels better.
So I think parenting part is really great.
(26:31):
I think some of my friends, they're not super
happy or they feel like, oh, you know, whenthe kids are off or, you know, in the summer
vacation time, they kind of say that, oh, youknow, I have to deal with them all day long.
To me, it's a privilege.
I feel like, you know, like even being able to
(26:52):
drive them to their swimming lessons or beingable to participate certain, you know, school
things, to me, it's great.
And even, I know it sounds funny, like, even
being able to do dishes, you know, for me,it's kind of a great thing because I feel
like, oh, you know, I'm working all thesehours and of course, now, you know, I'm able
(27:13):
to match the time so much better.
So I actually have the privilege to do
housework.
I know it sounds kind of silly, but it's just
like, you know, I think to me, that's alsopart of parenting, to show them that, hey, you
know, you can do this, and I show them how todo laundry.
And I also spend time with my daughter.
Like, we would cook or bake, you know, and I
(27:35):
actually teach her how to make egg tarts,which is, you know, one of the biggest Hong
Kong dessert to do.
So it's a lot of steps, but she's able to do
it.
So we're able to just share that special bond.
And I think love is expressed in differentways.
And I think to me, to be able to do these kindof day to day little things, I would just
(27:57):
cherish that forever in my life.
Dr Jen Barna (28:00):
Yes. That is so beautifully said.
I really love that idea of asking yourself andpeople that you love, especially your kids, if
you have kids, what went well today?What a wonderful point of reflection at the
end of the day and way to ask for aconversation with a child when if you just
(28:21):
say, how was your day?You likely get a fine, you know, a one word
answer.
That's such a wonderful question and a way to
help someone to reflect on the positive pointsfrom the day.
Because as you mentioned, there are thousandsof thoughts that go through our mind and there
are thousands of stimuli that we can choose tonotice or not notice at any given point.
(28:43):
And so choosing to notice the positive onescan have a huge impact on your life as well.
Maybe we could even have you share your recipewith us and we'll include it in the show
notes.
Mary Leung MD (28:57):
Okay, I don't have a set one, but yes, I'm happy to share anything.
Dr Jen Barna (29:02):
Awesome.
Well, doctor Mary Long, thank you so much for
coming and sharing so much wisdom with us ontoday's episode of dockworking the whole
physician podcast.
Please let us know how people can reach you if
they want to reach out and work with you as acoach or if they have additional questions for
(29:23):
you.
Mary Leung MD (29:24):
Yes. So you can email me at shiningwithgratitudemd@gmail.com and you can
also visit my website atwww.shiningwithgratitudemd.com I publish a
blog post twice a week on the same website,www.shiningwithgratitudemd.com forward slash
(29:45):
blog.
You can also find me on Facebook, marylung and
linkedin at marylungmd.
Dr Jen Barna (29:51):
Terrific.
Thank you again for sharing your wisdom and I
look forward to future conversations with you.
Mary Leung MD (29:57):
Yes, thank you so much for having.
Dr Jen Barna (29:59):
Me today and thank you for joining us listening to this conversation and
we hope that you will join us for futureconversations on the doc working whole
physician podcast.
Announcer (30:18):
Thank you for listening to Doc working the whole physician podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode, then please giveus a five star review wherever you listen to
your podcast.
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audience.
You can find more resources to help you
achieve the best in your life on our website.
Doc working.
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