January 12, 2024 • 23 mins
Navigating the stormy seas of divorce and co-parenting, we're joined by Jay Skibbens, whose transformative approach to custody coaching shines a beacon of hope for those lost in the fog. As a former educator and a seasoned guide through the choppy waters of familial change, Jay offers a lifeline to estranged partners striving to prioritize their children's well-being. Our candid conversation traverses his move from teaching to coaching, unpacking the power of non-adversarial strategies and the art of boundary-setting in co-parenting—an art that's as delicate as it is crucial.
This episode stands as an essential compass for fathers navigating the often-unmapped territory of co-parenting, offering solidarity, strategies, and the encouragement to reach out for guidance. As your host Scott Levin, while I remain a family law attorney in San Diego, CA, I do not litigate cases and the primary reason I transitioned my law practice from litigation to mediation lies in my desire to help parents navigate divorce in a way that leaves them capable and focused on being an aligned team when it comes to raising their kids. Divorce mediation improves co-parenting relationships.
Thanks for listening and I hope you'll continue to learn more about how you can peacefully divorce.
As a divorce mediation attorney in California, Scott Levin helps couples figure out the settlement terms and draft enforceable settlement agreements so they can divorce fairly without needing to go to court. Obtain closure peacefully through an amicable divorce. process that protects families and kids.
Visit San Diego Divorce Mediation for more information and to learn more about our mission to help divorcing couples make informed decisions and fair agreements through mediation or book a free virtual consultation.
Scott Levin, attorney, mediator, CDFA®
Chief PeaceKeeper
scottlevinmediation@gmail.com
858-255-1321
San Diego Divorce Mediation & Family Law
www.SanDiegoFamilyLawyer.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone.
This is Scott Levin, chiefPeacekeeper.
I'm here with my good friendJace Gibbons.
How are you, jay?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm doing good, man.
I'm glad you reached out.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yes, my good friend by way of the internet.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Where's Instagram?
Now, man, we're all friends2022, right.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
So I just want to kind of introduce Jay and his
practice, his background and howhe helps people in the divorce
world.
As everyone knows, I'm a familylaw attorney, but I only
practice in what's calledmediation.
So thus the Chief Peacekeepermoniker that I gave myself.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I mean you gotta have a brand man.
I appreciate that.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So Jay, can you kind of tell us a little bit about
your background?
I don't want you to have torehash the whole thing, but
basically Jay was a teacher bytrade, is now one of the
preeminent divorce and custodyand parenting coaches that works
with people going through thedivorce process and post-divorce
to try to help them withparenting and custody issues and
(01:07):
keeping the peace and raisingthose kids and focusing all the
energy on their well-being.
So, jay, could you kind of walkour viewers today through that
transition and how you got towhere you are?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, man.
Well, thank you, I'm preeminentman, I like that, I like the
sound of that.
So that was nice.
But no, honestly.
So I had my kids, the first onein 2015, 2014.
I should probably know that.
And at that point I didn't havea career set up.
(01:39):
So I went back to school toteach, because I kind of always
played around with that idea.
And then, when I started goingto school, I was like, oh, this
is going to be my career.
I saw the teacher to assistantprincipal to principal timeline
laid out.
I had the plans.
I even taught at the juniorhigh that I went to.
So there's this whole prodigalson coming home.
(02:04):
But what ended up happening isthat I was naively shocked at
how political education is andthe way that I wanted to help
and the way that I saw.
And what I saw is important forthe students because I taught
sixth grade, so they're like 11,12, just about hitting puberty,
(02:24):
going through all those changes.
The way I wanted to help themwasn't how the school saw, so we
just had a philosophydifference, that just they
didn't appreciate what I wantedto do and I didn't appreciate
what they wanted to do.
So then my next step was OK,I'll go to social work Social
workers they're doing the workfor the adults.
(02:46):
I can just do that, and what Ireally got into is that the
systems of social work and thesystem of education are somewhat
similar.
They're set up, that there's aperson who has all the
information and that they giveit to who they see fit, and if
you do the right things, you getmore of it kind of an idea.
And what ended up happening isthat, especially through COVID
(03:10):
2020, there, yeah, 2020, summerhit.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I know I don't even remember what COVID is.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So different.
Pre-covid is a different world,but that summer you couldn't go
on Facebook without bumpinginto an argument Some people say
the grass is green and somepeople are like, no, mine's
brown and mine's better and itwas just terrible.
So what I started doing was, onmy personal page, I just
(03:39):
started asking open-endedquestions what's a childhood
memory that means a lot to you,or what does honesty mean to you
?
And I started getting a lot ofattention, like I started
getting a lot of peoplecommenting, interacting with
each other, and it was like itbecame very quickly evident that
I had something there that,like, people need this, maybe
(04:02):
not more than ever.
So I read, you know, at thattime I was listening to a lot of
podcasts.
I reached out to a couple ofpodcast hosts that I knew were
coaches right, cause, you know,coaches ask questions.
So then I, you know, one ofthem got back to me and kind of
sent me on this road of gettingcertified as a coach, and then I
went through a couple ofprograms to help me understand
(04:23):
what coaching really means.
And then it wasn't until likeSeptember of 2021, like the
justice you know about six,seven months ago.
You know, I wanted to be aparent coach Cause I really I've
always worked with kids, Ireally liked kids.
But once I started talkingabout co-parenting it was like,
okay, like people, they no, nofault of their own, but they've
(04:48):
got no idea.
People have no idea how toco-parent.
And I've been doing this foreight years at this point.
So I've been through that crap,dude.
I've been through the mess I'vebeen.
I've made all those mistakes Ihave.
I have lived and breathe theboth sides of the boundary
setting and boundary breakingand the frustration and the
(05:11):
contempt.
I've lived that man.
So once I started talking aboutthat, people really started to
pay attention.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
What do you think about?
I have a prepared list ofquestions, but I'm going off
tough here.
Okay, when someone so I hadsomeone come to me yesterday and
basically you know I work with,I'm hired by both parties to a
divorce or to a post divorce,like when they need the child
custody solutions and thisperson came in with their ex
(05:42):
spouse and said that person nextto me over there, not even
looking at them, is 100% atfault for the situation we find
ourselves in.
When someone brings that kindof statement to you, what are
your thoughts and coaching withthat Cause?
You're and you're mainly, arealways just working with one
(06:03):
side, one parent at one time.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah.
So I I mean, for me, coachingis you have to be invested in it
and you have to be committed toit.
So I can't coach somebody who'sforced to be there.
It just isn't going to work,they're not going to do anything
, and then they're not going toget anything out of it, and then
neither one of us.
So I, yeah, I'm, I'm coachingwith the person who wants to
grow, who wants to change, whowants a better situation.
So what?
(06:26):
And it's funny because thatexact that's a lot of times why
people come to me.
It's like, well, I need tofigure out how to deal with them
.
They're the worst, they'reterrible.
And I just had somebody finishup a program and what she told
me was like you know, I came toyou and I thought that I needed
help fixing my co-parent.
I thought that I needed helpfixing my kid and my parents,
right, cause even her parentswere kind of involved in the
(06:47):
mess.
And you know, as she finishedthe program, she was like I just
realized that it was all aboutme and like what I can do and
what I can control, and like mymindset and perspective on
things.
Once I was able to focus onthose things and focus on myself
, everything started to changeand to me that's why, like you
know, choice is the biggest wordin this whole process to me,
(07:10):
because you know we have achoice, like you know, outside
of abuse, which I know changesthe conversation, we have a
choice in how we respond and ifwe respond and what we think of
the other person.
And if we continue to tellourselves stories that they're
the bad guy and that they're thecause of everything, then we
have to wait on them to change,for our life to get better.
(07:32):
And I just didn't, I don't wantto wait, I don't want, I don't
want my the people I work withto wait either.
Because I mean, you know, Iknow if you have to wait on
somebody else for your life toget better, like you're gonna go
gray before you have anythinggood happen.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So when someone comes to you and you're trying to get
them to focus on themselves isone of the things that you're
trying to coach them up on ishow to respond, and maybe not
respond, not giving intotemptation when the other person
is trying to bait you.
What I often tell people duringdivorce, especially at our
first meeting in mediation islook, if one of you is baiting
(08:12):
the other person by sendingthose texts that got you here to
begin with or, you know, issaying those mean things.
If you can just stop respondingand just give them the
understanding that you're notgoing down that road anymore,
the other person will stop.
They'll get on board, they'llget on this new direction train
(08:35):
eventually.
But you have to have it inyourself to be maybe the better
person at the beginning by notgiving in.
Is that something that you talkwith people about?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
What like honestly, 100%, and a big way that I do
that is that I help them focuson what they want.
Because a lot of times in theseseparations, in these divorces,
in co-parenting, we are like, oh, I just want what's best for my
kids, I just need my kids to beokay, I want what's best for my
kids.
And what parents don't realizeis that the best thing you can
(09:06):
do for your kids is for you tohave a vision and you to go
after that vision.
So if you're fighting andarguing about something with
your co-parents, if it's like,if you're not thinking about
what you want, you're onlyfighting against what they are
saying.
So to me it's like if you canfocus, put your blinders on,
create a vision and work towardsthat, it becomes easier to not
(09:30):
pay attention to what they'redoing, because what they're
saying and what they're doingand what they're asking and what
they're saying about you isn'tgetting you closer to your
vision.
So don't pay attention to it,Like if it's not helping you get
there, don't even respond, Likeput the phone down.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So do you recommend, how strongly do you recommend,
if at all, those parenting appsthat we all know about, or do
you try to encourage people tobe in direct text or SMS or
email communication?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So and this is where I really defer to lawyers and
people who have the legalexpertise I want, like,
especially if you're still inthe process or that's an option
I would rather you be safe thansorry.
Like I think that what I do isgreat, but I know that, like, if
you're like well, my coach saidthis, that you're in court,
like they're gonna be likewhatever dude, like what is,
(10:19):
what is the text?
Where's the email?
So I actually have a closerelationship with talking
parents like that app, and Ireally, I really like what they
do, because what they're tryingto get to is that is beyond just
the high conflict people that,like you know there's, they have
shared calendars, so that, like, even if you're getting along,
it's like, hey, you know, we gotTaekwondo practice on Tuesday
(10:41):
and we got basketball practiceon Friday, so that way, it's not
just, oh well, you said this,so I'm going to print it off and
show it to my lawyer.
It's like, hey, we can actuallyuse this app to get along and
to move things forward.
It's not just for high conflictpeople.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, and the thing I really like about talking to
parents too is that you can makequick edits to the calendar.
Like I'm running late at work,Can you get them at Taekwondo,
and it's like it's all aboutjust the adjustment to that
calendar.
It's not like the back andforth of like oh, of course you
are, you know, and getting downthat road of you know the drama.
(11:17):
It's more about just like quickchanges and, as we all know,
with parenting calendars, when,especially during shared custody
, the parties are going to makeabout 10 trillion adjustments to
the parenting calendar overtime just because of life
getting in the way.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So tell me about like I know that Jay works primarily
with I guess would you describeit that the most, the most
interested parties say most ofyour clients are either the
primary caregiver or and or like50 in 50, 50 custody sharing
arrangements.
Tell us about like who, who doyou find reaching out to the
most?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
So the people reaching out to me the most are
people who, yeah, are either theprimary caretaker or 50 50, but
feel like they're doing theprimary like mental load part,
that they're the ones schedulingeverything, they're the ones
kind of coordinating theappointments, the practices and
are expressing frustration atkind of carrying that weight of
(12:18):
they're thinking about themental and emotional well-being
of the kid and they're they feellike they are doing the
majority of the thinking.
And to me, what I find, themore that I talk to people in
that situation, is that it tendsto be overthinking and
overcompensating for what theyperceive is the lack of
(12:42):
emotional well-being oremotional support from the other
parents.
And we really dig into thatbecause I don't want anybody
parenting based like I don'twant their parenting philosophy
is based on overcompensate, likeI want you to be the parent
you're supposed to be and trustthat that's more than enough for
your kid.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, no, I think that.
So.
So who can you say like who?
What does that person look like?
That's I did my, I want, I kindof want to get at I was.
I became aware of Jace Gibbonsfrom a conversation I had with
Michelle Dempsey of mom's movingon and and, and I asked
Michelle like who do you thinkis out there kind of advocating
(13:24):
for, you know, dads and the waythat she advocates for moms?
But I know, when talking withJay and being friends with him,
is that most of his clients arewomen.
So I guess my question is in along roundabout way here how
come we don't see men reachingout as much as women reaching
out for coaching?
Men get personal trainers.
(13:44):
Men have coaches growing up forfootball, basketball.
We know the importance of notjust shooting hoops on our own
but getting someone to tell usnow how does that crossover work
, or how do you back someonedown, or whatever it is?
We've we've gotten coaching alot in our lives, but when it
comes to the most importantthing in our lives, which is our
(14:04):
children and their well beingand this co-parenting
relationship we find ourselvesin, why aren't more men reaching
out for help, do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
if that's the case, Well, and so it's awesome that
you use the basketball, becausethere was a dad that I coached.
That like one of the thingsthat we talked about when we
first started off.
He was like, hey, I just needlike, if I'm shooting free
throws and my elbow starts goingout too much, I need you to be
there to like help me understandthat my elbows like flaring out
too much.
And to me, part of the reasonthat dads aren't reaching out to
(14:34):
me as much is because theidentity of a mother is so well
defined in society, right, like,we know that moms take care of
everything.
We know that moms like cook andclean, and and I only say these
things because they'restereotypes I don't believe
these things.
But that is the stereotypicalrole of a mom to handle
everything, and that dad's thereto provide or to be the
(14:55):
disciplinarian or to do thesports type of thing.
So once the couple splits, oronce the two people split, the
role of the dad is much morelike, undefined, like, how are
you providing if you're onlywith your kid 50% of time, or if
you're a part-time dad?
How do you discipline when youonly have them for a weekend?
(15:19):
Like, how?
Like to me it's like, how doyou not be the fun dad?
How do you not let the rules goa little bit?
Because, say, your kid comes toyour house on a Saturday and
they do something that you knowshould have a consequence, but
they leave it, you know, noonthe next day?
How do you follow through withthat?
So I think that a lot of dadsare just in that space of I'll
(15:40):
just do the best I can, I'llfigure this out.
Some of them are probablythinking like I'm doing better
than my dad did.
My dad wasn't even around, so,like, why do I need to be doing
better?
And I think that there needs tobe a bit more of dads in that
position because for me, I'm aprimary caretaker, so, like, I
have the kids the majority ofthe time.
(16:02):
So when I talk about what I'mgoing through, I talk about what
my clients are going through.
I think that for the most part,I'm talking to moms, or that,
honestly, some moms.
So I think that what needs tostart happening is and there
needs to be dads who are voicingthe like, being the voice of
the every other weekend dad, orthe every other weekend and
(16:24):
Tuesday dad, or the 5050 dad whodoesn't make all the
appointments.
They don't have a voice, sothey don't know where to go.
So I think that that's where,like, fatherhood is super
important to me, but it's hardto me to be like, all right,
well, this is what you shouldtell your like co-parent dad
that he should be doing, becausewe know that that doesn't work,
we know that.
(16:46):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's a really, really interesting point.
You know I do a lot of.
My wife has a very much 9 to 9job, I call it, but like 5.
And you know she is totallyunavailable during the day and
when things happen and I have ajob where I work for myself.
So I do the drop-offs and thepickups and the post.
(17:08):
You know post pickup, you knowmeal making and then I go back
to work when she comes home oryou know when we have a setter
or whatever we arrange.
But it's very different.
You know, when I do thedrop-offs and the pickups I'm
seeing all the moms mainly andyou know doing the.
You know the school activitiesand the.
(17:30):
You know all the stuff I'm ableto do that I love to do.
But, like you said, I mean,although it's stereotypical,
there's just less of the dadsout there than the moms and I
don't think that you know that.
That thinking energy, I doagree with you that is more of a
of a mom thing and I could seewhy moms are reaching out for
more help than dads.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Well, and I couldn't agree more and I'm glad that you
even just said that, like youdo that stuff too, because I
think that that's part of theconversation and I think that
there's also because, as a manand as a dad, I you know I'll
speak for myself and you canagree or disagree like respect
is huge, like the legacy thatI'm leaving is huge, and I think
that it can be tough for a dadwho's in a spot where he feels
(18:12):
like he's not doing enough to belike to, to feel like they're
respected, to feel like they arecontributing how much they they
want to be, and especially ifthere's contention between the
two parties, it's like, well,why even try?
Like I'm not getting therespect I'm not getting this,
like you're making up heart onme and I just want you to
respect me.
So it can be.
(18:33):
It can be really tricky forthem to continue to step up if
they're not being seen that way.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I know I love that.
So I have one question.
I wrote down here that I wantto get to and I know Jay's real
busy so we're not going to taketoo much more time.
Jay, if two parties are, areyou know, beginning this process
of transitioning from marriedto part co-parenting partners?
Is there?
You know one, two, three piecesof advice that you could offer
(19:05):
to help them get from where theyare to where they want to be if
they want to co-parenteffectively.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yes.
So to me, what could have beenpart of the separation is when
things aren't defined, like if,with you and your job and me and
my job, we have pretty clearideas of what our job duties are
.
I know what I need to be doingon a daily basis to be
successful.
Once you split, co-parenting isthis thing that none of us
(19:32):
really grew up having too muchof an idea of what it looks like
, the no real role models,nobody on tv, nobody in movies.
We've got no idea.
So what I really tried to dowith clients right off the bat
is like we've got to define whatit means for you to be a
co-parent.
We've got to make definitions,we've got to get clear cuts so
that you know what you'resupposed to be doing, because in
(19:52):
your job and my job, if I feellike I've got to be doing
everything every day, then I'mgoing to burn out real fast.
So I've got to have cleardefinition of what I need to be
doing.
And then becomes the.
I need to figure out what mytriggers are because, like you
said, if them texting metriggers me, I've got to figure
(20:13):
out how to handle that.
If seeing them triggers me, I'vegot to you know, and then if
they bring around another person, I've got to figure out what my
triggers are and I've got to beable to handle them and there
are effective ways to reallyminimize the impact of triggers,
because that way you can get tothat.
And it goes in this order liketo define what's going on,
(20:34):
handle your triggers and thenstart to healthily communicate,
because that you can't just tryto communicate healthy off the
bat, because you've got what youneed to be doing.
You've got what you thinkshould be happening and they've
got what they think should behappening.
And if you haven't done thatinitial work first, when you try
to communicate, it's going togo to shit.
So the truth of the matter isthat the communication piece
(20:58):
comes third, because then, afteryou can get to a place where
you're calm, then you can belike okay, this is how I feel,
this is how I see things, thisis what I want, and it's less
about well, you said this, yousaid that, and now we're
fighting.
Once you get past, like, thetriggers, you can start to
communicate and that, honestly,that's, that's a huge part of
the early process with anybodythat I talked to.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
No, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, you already got to thepoint by going back in time and
saying well, your mom and yourdad and your friends and you
made me lose my friends, andthat's already happened.
We got to focus now on wherewe're going and what we want out
of this relationship and forour kids.
So I think that's really greatadvice.
Jay, can you?
(21:40):
I'm going to write all of yourlinks and everything, but can
you briefly just let people knowwhere they can find you.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, right now I am operating mainly out of Facebook
and Instagram, so I do all ofmy reels, all of my posts, on
Instagram at Jace Gibbons.
And then I have a privateFacebook group for single
parents and co-parents calledSingle Parenting on Purpose, and
it is private but it's open toeverybody.
So if you are single parentingfull time, if you're
co-parenting, it's just a reallygood place for community.
(22:08):
I think that one of the thingsthat single parents and
co-parents they're doing italone and that nobody else
understands there's about 600people in there right now that
understand what you're goingthrough.
So I really want that forcommunity.
And then all of my coachingideas and posts are on Instagram
.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And Jay can be engaged by anyone worldwide, not
just in Illinois where he is.
But you know, I've beenfollowing Jay for a while.
Like I said, I really love.
If you've watched me, you knowthat I'm just about peacekeeping
, so not always easy, not alwayspossible, but you know, if you
(22:46):
guys can do it and work witheach other, I just think that's
a lot healthier for co-parentingrelationships in the future.
And if lawyers do all thetalking for you often doesn't
leave you guys, leave peoplecapable of dealing with each
other down the road and you'renot going to continue to pay
people $600 an hour to talk foryou forever.
(23:07):
So I believe that Jay is areally, really exceptional
option and opportunity forpeople to get on that
peacekeeping track.
And to you know, like you said,I've already got some grays.
I don't see many on him.
You don't want to wait untilyou're fully gray to get your
life in a place where you wantit.
And so you know, reach out toJay and hear what he has to say
(23:31):
and join this group.
So alright, everybody, I'mgoing to stop it here.
Thanks a lot, jay, for joiningme today.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
No thanks, Scott, I appreciate it man.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thanks a lot.
Talk to you soon.
Hey everyone.
This is Scott Levin, chiefPeacekeeper.
I'm here with my good friendJace Gibbons.
How are you, jay?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm doing good, man.
I'm glad you reached out.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yes, my good friend by way of the internet.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Where's Instagram?
Now, man, we're all friends2022, right.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
So I just want to kind of introduce Jay and his
practice, his background and howhe helps people in the divorce
world.
As everyone knows, I'm a familylaw attorney, but I only
practice in what's calledmediation.
So thus the Chief Peacekeepermoniker that I gave myself.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I mean you gotta have a brand man.
I appreciate that.
I like that.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
So Jay, can you kind of tell us a little bit about
your background?
I don't want you to have torehash the whole thing, but
basically Jay was a teacher bytrade, is now one of the
preeminent divorce and custodyand parenting coaches that works
with people going through thedivorce process and post-divorce
to try to help them withparenting and custody issues and
(01:07):
keeping the peace and raisingthose kids and focusing all the
energy on their well-being.
So, jay, could you kind of walkour viewers today through that
transition and how you got towhere you are?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, man.
Well, thank you, I'm preeminentman, I like that, I like the
sound of that.
So that was nice.
But no, honestly.
So I had my kids, the first onein 2015, 2014.
I should probably know that.
And at that point I didn't havea career set up.
(01:39):
So I went back to school toteach, because I kind of always
played around with that idea.
And then, when I started goingto school, I was like, oh, this
is going to be my career.
I saw the teacher to assistantprincipal to principal timeline
laid out.
I had the plans.
I even taught at the juniorhigh that I went to.
So there's this whole prodigalson coming home.
(02:04):
But what ended up happening isthat I was naively shocked at
how political education is andthe way that I wanted to help
and the way that I saw.
And what I saw is important forthe students because I taught
sixth grade, so they're like 11,12, just about hitting puberty,
(02:24):
going through all those changes.
The way I wanted to help themwasn't how the school saw, so we
just had a philosophydifference, that just they
didn't appreciate what I wantedto do and I didn't appreciate
what they wanted to do.
So then my next step was OK,I'll go to social work Social
workers they're doing the workfor the adults.
(02:46):
I can just do that, and what Ireally got into is that the
systems of social work and thesystem of education are somewhat
similar.
They're set up, that there's aperson who has all the
information and that they giveit to who they see fit, and if
you do the right things, you getmore of it kind of an idea.
And what ended up happening isthat, especially through COVID
(03:10):
2020, there, yeah, 2020, summerhit.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
I know I don't even remember what COVID is.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So different.
Pre-covid is a different world,but that summer you couldn't go
on Facebook without bumpinginto an argument Some people say
the grass is green and somepeople are like, no, mine's
brown and mine's better and itwas just terrible.
So what I started doing was, onmy personal page, I just
(03:39):
started asking open-endedquestions what's a childhood
memory that means a lot to you,or what does honesty mean to you
?
And I started getting a lot ofattention, like I started
getting a lot of peoplecommenting, interacting with
each other, and it was like itbecame very quickly evident that
I had something there that,like, people need this, maybe
(04:02):
not more than ever.
So I read, you know, at thattime I was listening to a lot of
podcasts.
I reached out to a couple ofpodcast hosts that I knew were
coaches right, cause, you know,coaches ask questions.
So then I, you know, one ofthem got back to me and kind of
sent me on this road of gettingcertified as a coach, and then I
went through a couple ofprograms to help me understand
(04:23):
what coaching really means.
And then it wasn't until likeSeptember of 2021, like the
justice you know about six,seven months ago.
You know, I wanted to be aparent coach Cause I really I've
always worked with kids, Ireally liked kids.
But once I started talkingabout co-parenting it was like,
okay, like people, they no, nofault of their own, but they've
(04:48):
got no idea.
People have no idea how toco-parent.
And I've been doing this foreight years at this point.
So I've been through that crap,dude.
I've been through the mess I'vebeen.
I've made all those mistakes Ihave.
I have lived and breathe theboth sides of the boundary
setting and boundary breakingand the frustration and the
(05:11):
contempt.
I've lived that man.
So once I started talking aboutthat, people really started to
pay attention.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
What do you think about?
I have a prepared list ofquestions, but I'm going off
tough here.
Okay, when someone so I hadsomeone come to me yesterday and
basically you know I work with,I'm hired by both parties to a
divorce or to a post divorce,like when they need the child
custody solutions and thisperson came in with their ex
(05:42):
spouse and said that person nextto me over there, not even
looking at them, is 100% atfault for the situation we find
ourselves in.
When someone brings that kindof statement to you, what are
your thoughts and coaching withthat Cause?
You're and you're mainly, arealways just working with one
(06:03):
side, one parent at one time.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah.
So I I mean, for me, coachingis you have to be invested in it
and you have to be committed toit.
So I can't coach somebody who'sforced to be there.
It just isn't going to work,they're not going to do anything
, and then they're not going toget anything out of it, and then
neither one of us.
So I, yeah, I'm, I'm coachingwith the person who wants to
grow, who wants to change, whowants a better situation.
So what?
(06:26):
And it's funny because thatexact that's a lot of times why
people come to me.
It's like, well, I need tofigure out how to deal with them
.
They're the worst, they'reterrible.
And I just had somebody finishup a program and what she told
me was like you know, I came toyou and I thought that I needed
help fixing my co-parent.
I thought that I needed helpfixing my kid and my parents,
right, cause even her parentswere kind of involved in the
(06:47):
mess.
And you know, as she finishedthe program, she was like I just
realized that it was all aboutme and like what I can do and
what I can control, and like mymindset and perspective on
things.
Once I was able to focus onthose things and focus on myself
, everything started to changeand to me that's why, like you
know, choice is the biggest wordin this whole process to me,
(07:10):
because you know we have achoice, like you know, outside
of abuse, which I know changesthe conversation, we have a
choice in how we respond and ifwe respond and what we think of
the other person.
And if we continue to tellourselves stories that they're
the bad guy and that they're thecause of everything, then we
have to wait on them to change,for our life to get better.
(07:32):
And I just didn't, I don't wantto wait, I don't want, I don't
want my the people I work withto wait either.
Because I mean, you know, Iknow if you have to wait on
somebody else for your life toget better, like you're gonna go
gray before you have anythinggood happen.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So when someone comes to you and you're trying to get
them to focus on themselves isone of the things that you're
trying to coach them up on ishow to respond, and maybe not
respond, not giving intotemptation when the other person
is trying to bait you.
What I often tell people duringdivorce, especially at our
first meeting in mediation islook, if one of you is baiting
(08:12):
the other person by sendingthose texts that got you here to
begin with or, you know, issaying those mean things.
If you can just stop respondingand just give them the
understanding that you're notgoing down that road anymore,
the other person will stop.
They'll get on board, they'llget on this new direction train
(08:35):
eventually.
But you have to have it inyourself to be maybe the better
person at the beginning by notgiving in.
Is that something that you talkwith people about?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
What like honestly, 100%, and a big way that I do
that is that I help them focuson what they want.
Because a lot of times in theseseparations, in these divorces,
in co-parenting, we are like, oh, I just want what's best for my
kids, I just need my kids to beokay, I want what's best for my
kids.
And what parents don't realizeis that the best thing you can
(09:06):
do for your kids is for you tohave a vision and you to go
after that vision.
So if you're fighting andarguing about something with
your co-parents, if it's like,if you're not thinking about
what you want, you're onlyfighting against what they are
saying.
So to me it's like if you canfocus, put your blinders on,
create a vision and work towardsthat, it becomes easier to not
(09:30):
pay attention to what they'redoing, because what they're
saying and what they're doingand what they're asking and what
they're saying about you isn'tgetting you closer to your
vision.
So don't pay attention to it,Like if it's not helping you get
there, don't even respond, Likeput the phone down.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
So do you recommend, how strongly do you recommend,
if at all, those parenting appsthat we all know about, or do
you try to encourage people tobe in direct text or SMS or
email communication?
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So and this is where I really defer to lawyers and
people who have the legalexpertise I want, like,
especially if you're still inthe process or that's an option
I would rather you be safe thansorry.
Like I think that what I do isgreat, but I know that, like, if
you're like well, my coach saidthis, that you're in court,
like they're gonna be likewhatever dude, like what is,
(10:19):
what is the text?
Where's the email?
So I actually have a closerelationship with talking
parents like that app, and Ireally, I really like what they
do, because what they're tryingto get to is that is beyond just
the high conflict people that,like you know there's, they have
shared calendars, so that, like, even if you're getting along,
it's like, hey, you know, we gotTaekwondo practice on Tuesday
(10:41):
and we got basketball practiceon Friday, so that way, it's not
just, oh well, you said this,so I'm going to print it off and
show it to my lawyer.
It's like, hey, we can actuallyuse this app to get along and
to move things forward.
It's not just for high conflictpeople.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, and the thing I really like about talking to
parents too is that you can makequick edits to the calendar.
Like I'm running late at work,Can you get them at Taekwondo,
and it's like it's all aboutjust the adjustment to that
calendar.
It's not like the back andforth of like oh, of course you
are, you know, and getting downthat road of you know the drama.
(11:17):
It's more about just like quickchanges and, as we all know,
with parenting calendars, when,especially during shared custody
, the parties are going to makeabout 10 trillion adjustments to
the parenting calendar overtime just because of life
getting in the way.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So tell me about like I know that Jay works primarily
with I guess would you describeit that the most, the most
interested parties say most ofyour clients are either the
primary caregiver or and or like50 in 50, 50 custody sharing
arrangements.
Tell us about like who, who doyou find reaching out to the
most?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
So the people reaching out to me the most are
people who, yeah, are either theprimary caretaker or 50 50, but
feel like they're doing theprimary like mental load part,
that they're the ones schedulingeverything, they're the ones
kind of coordinating theappointments, the practices and
are expressing frustration atkind of carrying that weight of
(12:18):
they're thinking about themental and emotional well-being
of the kid and they're they feellike they are doing the
majority of the thinking.
And to me, what I find, themore that I talk to people in
that situation, is that it tendsto be overthinking and
overcompensating for what theyperceive is the lack of
(12:42):
emotional well-being oremotional support from the other
parents.
And we really dig into thatbecause I don't want anybody
parenting based like I don'twant their parenting philosophy
is based on overcompensate, likeI want you to be the parent
you're supposed to be and trustthat that's more than enough for
your kid.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, no, I think that.
So.
So who can you say like who?
What does that person look like?
That's I did my, I want, I kindof want to get at I was.
I became aware of Jace Gibbonsfrom a conversation I had with
Michelle Dempsey of mom's movingon and and, and I asked
Michelle like who do you thinkis out there kind of advocating
(13:24):
for, you know, dads and the waythat she advocates for moms?
But I know, when talking withJay and being friends with him,
is that most of his clients arewomen.
So I guess my question is in along roundabout way here how
come we don't see men reachingout as much as women reaching
out for coaching?
Men get personal trainers.
(13:44):
Men have coaches growing up forfootball, basketball.
We know the importance of notjust shooting hoops on our own
but getting someone to tell usnow how does that crossover work
, or how do you back someonedown, or whatever it is?
We've we've gotten coaching alot in our lives, but when it
comes to the most importantthing in our lives, which is our
(14:04):
children and their well beingand this co-parenting
relationship we find ourselvesin, why aren't more men reaching
out for help, do you think?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
if that's the case, Well, and so it's awesome that
you use the basketball, becausethere was a dad that I coached.
That like one of the thingsthat we talked about when we
first started off.
He was like, hey, I just needlike, if I'm shooting free
throws and my elbow starts goingout too much, I need you to be
there to like help me understandthat my elbows like flaring out
too much.
And to me, part of the reasonthat dads aren't reaching out to
(14:34):
me as much is because theidentity of a mother is so well
defined in society, right, like,we know that moms take care of
everything.
We know that moms like cook andclean, and and I only say these
things because they'restereotypes I don't believe
these things.
But that is the stereotypicalrole of a mom to handle
everything, and that dad's thereto provide or to be the
(14:55):
disciplinarian or to do thesports type of thing.
So once the couple splits, oronce the two people split, the
role of the dad is much morelike, undefined, like, how are
you providing if you're onlywith your kid 50% of time, or if
you're a part-time dad?
How do you discipline when youonly have them for a weekend?
(15:19):
Like, how?
Like to me it's like, how doyou not be the fun dad?
How do you not let the rules goa little bit?
Because, say, your kid comes toyour house on a Saturday and
they do something that you knowshould have a consequence, but
they leave it, you know, noonthe next day?
How do you follow through withthat?
So I think that a lot of dadsare just in that space of I'll
(15:40):
just do the best I can, I'llfigure this out.
Some of them are probablythinking like I'm doing better
than my dad did.
My dad wasn't even around, so,like, why do I need to be doing
better?
And I think that there needs tobe a bit more of dads in that
position because for me, I'm aprimary caretaker, so, like, I
have the kids the majority ofthe time.
(16:02):
So when I talk about what I'mgoing through, I talk about what
my clients are going through.
I think that for the most part,I'm talking to moms, or that,
honestly, some moms.
So I think that what needs tostart happening is and there
needs to be dads who are voicingthe like, being the voice of
the every other weekend dad, orthe every other weekend and
(16:24):
Tuesday dad, or the 5050 dad whodoesn't make all the
appointments.
They don't have a voice, sothey don't know where to go.
So I think that that's where,like, fatherhood is super
important to me, but it's hardto me to be like, all right,
well, this is what you shouldtell your like co-parent dad
that he should be doing, becausewe know that that doesn't work,
we know that.
(16:46):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
It's a really, really interesting point.
You know I do a lot of.
My wife has a very much 9 to 9job, I call it, but like 5.
And you know she is totallyunavailable during the day and
when things happen and I have ajob where I work for myself.
So I do the drop-offs and thepickups and the post.
(17:08):
You know post pickup, you knowmeal making and then I go back
to work when she comes home oryou know when we have a setter
or whatever we arrange.
But it's very different.
You know, when I do thedrop-offs and the pickups I'm
seeing all the moms mainly andyou know doing the.
You know the school activitiesand the.
(17:30):
You know all the stuff I'm ableto do that I love to do.
But, like you said, I mean,although it's stereotypical,
there's just less of the dadsout there than the moms and I
don't think that you know that.
That thinking energy, I doagree with you that is more of a
of a mom thing and I could seewhy moms are reaching out for
more help than dads.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Well, and I couldn't agree more and I'm glad that you
even just said that, like youdo that stuff too, because I
think that that's part of theconversation and I think that
there's also because, as a manand as a dad, I you know I'll
speak for myself and you canagree or disagree like respect
is huge, like the legacy thatI'm leaving is huge, and I think
that it can be tough for a dadwho's in a spot where he feels
(18:12):
like he's not doing enough to belike to, to feel like they're
respected, to feel like they arecontributing how much they they
want to be, and especially ifthere's contention between the
two parties, it's like, well,why even try?
Like I'm not getting therespect I'm not getting this,
like you're making up heart onme and I just want you to
respect me.
So it can be.
(18:33):
It can be really tricky forthem to continue to step up if
they're not being seen that way.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, I know I love that.
So I have one question.
I wrote down here that I wantto get to and I know Jay's real
busy so we're not going to taketoo much more time.
Jay, if two parties are, areyou know, beginning this process
of transitioning from marriedto part co-parenting partners?
Is there?
You know one, two, three piecesof advice that you could offer
(19:05):
to help them get from where theyare to where they want to be if
they want to co-parenteffectively.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yes.
So to me, what could have beenpart of the separation is when
things aren't defined, like if,with you and your job and me and
my job, we have pretty clearideas of what our job duties are
.
I know what I need to be doingon a daily basis to be
successful.
Once you split, co-parenting isthis thing that none of us
(19:32):
really grew up having too muchof an idea of what it looks like
, the no real role models,nobody on tv, nobody in movies.
We've got no idea.
So what I really tried to dowith clients right off the bat
is like we've got to define whatit means for you to be a
co-parent.
We've got to make definitions,we've got to get clear cuts so
that you know what you'resupposed to be doing, because in
(19:52):
your job and my job, if I feellike I've got to be doing
everything every day, then I'mgoing to burn out real fast.
So I've got to have cleardefinition of what I need to be
doing.
And then becomes the.
I need to figure out what mytriggers are because, like you
said, if them texting metriggers me, I've got to figure
(20:13):
out how to handle that.
If seeing them triggers me, I'vegot to you know, and then if
they bring around another person, I've got to figure out what my
triggers are and I've got to beable to handle them and there
are effective ways to reallyminimize the impact of triggers,
because that way you can get tothat.
And it goes in this order liketo define what's going on,
(20:34):
handle your triggers and thenstart to healthily communicate,
because that you can't just tryto communicate healthy off the
bat, because you've got what youneed to be doing.
You've got what you thinkshould be happening and they've
got what they think should behappening.
And if you haven't done thatinitial work first, when you try
to communicate, it's going togo to shit.
So the truth of the matter isthat the communication piece
(20:58):
comes third, because then, afteryou can get to a place where
you're calm, then you can belike okay, this is how I feel,
this is how I see things, thisis what I want, and it's less
about well, you said this, yousaid that, and now we're
fighting.
Once you get past, like, thetriggers, you can start to
communicate and that, honestly,that's, that's a huge part of
the early process with anybodythat I talked to.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
No, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, you already got to thepoint by going back in time and
saying well, your mom and yourdad and your friends and you
made me lose my friends, andthat's already happened.
We got to focus now on wherewe're going and what we want out
of this relationship and forour kids.
So I think that's really greatadvice.
Jay, can you?
(21:40):
I'm going to write all of yourlinks and everything, but can
you briefly just let people knowwhere they can find you.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, right now I am operating mainly out of Facebook
and Instagram, so I do all ofmy reels, all of my posts, on
Instagram at Jace Gibbons.
And then I have a privateFacebook group for single
parents and co-parents calledSingle Parenting on Purpose, and
it is private but it's open toeverybody.
So if you are single parentingfull time, if you're
co-parenting, it's just a reallygood place for community.
(22:08):
I think that one of the thingsthat single parents and
co-parents they're doing italone and that nobody else
understands there's about 600people in there right now that
understand what you're goingthrough.
So I really want that forcommunity.
And then all of my coachingideas and posts are on Instagram
.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And Jay can be engaged by anyone worldwide, not
just in Illinois where he is.
But you know, I've beenfollowing Jay for a while.
Like I said, I really love.
If you've watched me, you knowthat I'm just about peacekeeping
, so not always easy, not alwayspossible, but you know, if you
(22:46):
guys can do it and work witheach other, I just think that's
a lot healthier for co-parentingrelationships in the future.
And if lawyers do all thetalking for you often doesn't
leave you guys, leave peoplecapable of dealing with each
other down the road and you'renot going to continue to pay
people $600 an hour to talk foryou forever.
(23:07):
So I believe that Jay is areally, really exceptional
option and opportunity forpeople to get on that
peacekeeping track.
And to you know, like you said,I've already got some grays.
I don't see many on him.
You don't want to wait untilyou're fully gray to get your
life in a place where you wantit.
And so you know, reach out toJay and hear what he has to say
(23:31):
and join this group.
So alright, everybody, I'mgoing to stop it here.
Thanks a lot, jay, for joiningme today.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
No thanks, Scott, I appreciate it man.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Thanks a lot.
Talk to you soon.
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