February 7, 2024 • 54 mins
I’m Scott Levin, a seasoned high conflict divorce attorney in California, joined by Brook Olsen, a high-conflict divorce coach, to share our commitment to collaborative divorce solutions. Whether navigating challenges like narcissism or other personality complexities, we believe that a cooperative mediation for divorce process approach to resolution is almost always better than adversarial litigation.
In our discussion, we address skepticism surrounding mediation in high-conflict situations. By integrating strategic coaching and fostering a deep understanding of each partner's journey, we illustrate how seemingly insurmountable disputes can evolve into agreements that respect the needs of the entire family.
We also highlight the stark contrast between mediation and litigation, particularly its emotional toll on children and parents. Our conversation underscores the importance of prioritizing children's well-being to create a foundation for a healthy and collaborative co-parenting dynamic post-divorce and Brook explains why he believes mediation is best option to divorce with kids.
Explore how mediation, even in the most challenging cases, can transform divorce into an opportunity for growth and understanding.
Learn more about Brook Olsen by clicking here and feel free to reach out to Scott Levin if a California high conflict divorce mediation attorney could help.
Thanks for listening and I hope you'll continue to learn more about how you can peacefully divorce.
As a divorce mediation attorney in California, Scott Levin helps couples figure out the settlement terms and draft enforceable settlement agreements so they can divorce fairly without needing to go to court. Obtain closure peacefully through an amicable divorce. process that protects families and kids.
Visit San Diego Divorce Mediation for more information and to learn more about our mission to help divorcing couples make informed decisions and fair agreements through mediation or book a free virtual consultation.
Scott Levin, attorney, mediator, CDFA®
Chief PeaceKeeper
scottlevinmediation@gmail.com
858-255-1321
San Diego Divorce Mediation & Family Law
www.SanDiegoFamilyLawyer.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the High Conflict Co-Parenting Podcast,
where we provide you withvaluable insights and expert
guidance on navigating highconflict, divorce and custody
battles.
If you're dealing with a highconflict situation, we
understand how challenging andoverwhelming it can be.
That's why we've created a freeresource for you to help you
begin managing the high conflictdynamic.
(00:22):
Our High Conflict VersionProgram booklet when
co-parenting doesn't workprovides great information and
innovative strategies to helpyou disengage from the conflict
and prioritize your child's bestinterests.
To access this valuableresource, simply visit
highconflictnet forward slashbooklet and download your free
(00:42):
copy of when co-parentingdoesn't work.
We believe that every parentdeserves the support and
guidance they need to navigatehigh conflict, divorce and
custody battles.
We're here to help you everystep of the way, so be sure to
visit highconflictnet forwardslash booklet to receive your
booklet today.
And thank you for tuning in tothe High Conflict Co-Parenting
(01:04):
Podcast.
We look forward to supportingyou on your journey.
Welcome back, everybody, to theHigh Conflict Co-Parenting
Podcast with Brooke Olson, andthis week my guest is Scott
Levine, and Scott is an attorneywho no longer practices
litigation.
He is a peacekeeper, if youwill, or a peacemaker, and
(01:29):
focuses on mediation.
So this week's episode is 277,principles and Strategies for
Mediating High Conflict, divorceand Custody.
And what I want to do heretoday, scott, is kind of explore
this notion of mediating withhigh conflict couples, because
(01:55):
there is a notion, depending onwhere you sit, that it's not
productive and it can't be done.
And then there's another notionthat if we pull this apart we
go slow, we get some slowagreements and we begin to get
some traction in the process.
There's a possibility that wecan navigate that.
(02:22):
And I have clients come to meoften that use the buzzwords of
you know, my client or my exesat Narcissus or my ex's
borderline, and there's no waythat we can get together and
mediate this stuff.
And I start to hear theirstories and as their stories
(02:43):
unfold I get in the back of myhead that there's not a lot here
other than a lot of story.
And even with what you'retelling me, if we look at going
into court and we look atlitigating this stuff, it's
(03:03):
going to be a protracted mess.
And with the proper coachingand a good mediator that there's
a possibility that we can getto at least what is needed in
the moment to get results.
And when I talk about that Ithink that there's two.
(03:26):
You know, the two majorcomponents that I usually look
at are the finances and thecustody and visitation
agreements, and my experiencetells me that we don't get to
finances until we get to thecustody and visitation.
We've got to get through thatmess first, and that has got the
(03:48):
most emotion to it, and what Ifind in that process is the
emotion that comes along with.
That has people jumping over adollar to pick up a dime so to
be able to slow the process downfor them, get them out of their
(04:13):
anger, their resentment, theirbetrayal, their mis-frust, and
get down to an understanding ofif you don't choose to work this
piece out, or if you can't workthis out, you need to
(04:36):
understand fully what that'sgoing to look like when you get
in front of a Family CourtService Mediator or a Judge or
working with a GAO or all of theother messed up things that
come along in this arena.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
At 45 minutes with a Family Court Mediator to figure
out your whole life.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Right, right, and running on this notion of they
are going to hear me, they'regoing to understand and they're
going to get it, and they'venever heard anything crazy
before.
Right, they hear it five times aday and they don't have the
resources to really pull thisstuff together.
(05:17):
I mean, for me, I have a lot ofattorneys send their clients to
me to prep them for mediation,not just Family Court Services,
but for private mediation aswell.
And what I am interested inhearing from you, kind of off
the jump here, Scott, is whenyou are entering this contractor
(05:41):
, this conversation with peopleto mediate, what's the ideal
situation for the clients toshow up for you with?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, well, you know.
First let me thank you forhaving me.
I don't know who the other 276guests were before me, but I'm
glad we got it in.
I first want to just kind ofhighlight something you said
because it's interesting to meand I know we're going to kind
of go back and forth.
(06:14):
I'm sure we'll get to thatanswer in a sec.
But the alternative is really,when people come and consult
with me and they're posing someof these high conflict
situations, I will tell themlook, I'm not trying to sell you
(06:38):
on me, I'm not trying to sellyou on the process.
But I need you to understandwhat the alternative looks like,
because that is absolutely nota perfect solution and I'm not
saying that what I offer is aperfect solution.
But you have to understandwhat's coming if you're not
successful, because there's nodoubt I can explain and paint
(07:00):
that picture in terms of thetime that you're going to be
stuck in the process, the costand the impact on your stress
level, your emotions, yourwell-being mental and, of course
, your children, your whole life.
So I know what that looks like.
I dealt in that world for 12years and for the last 12 years
I've been a peacekeepingattorney, I mediate only.
(07:24):
But the other thing that I thinkis really important to
understand is that and this ismy kind of new buzzword, that
I'm kind of mixing in the mixwhen I'm talking to folks that
have these issues in theconsultation is imposed
solutions.
So even if you litigate and youend it and you get to the end,
(07:48):
imposed solutions are seldomadhered to.
So that presents new obstaclesafter the divorce process.
So people that have solutionsimposed on them through the
litigation process drag theirfeet and don't abide by the
rules that are imposed.
So you get to the end, but isthat the end in your experience,
(08:11):
or is that just the newbeginning?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
That's often the new beginning.
I mean, there are so manypost-judgment motions that come
up and so many revisitingcustody and energies.
If they aren't encouraged notjust allowed, but encouraged to
(08:34):
settle down and get into themainstream of life, start to get
to work, get your kids toschool, find joy in your life,
have partnerships, havefriendships.
Life is a struggle, life isstressful and people are living
in that stressful environment ina heightened activated state
(08:58):
that has an effect on theirchildren, because it has a huge
effect on them, and there's thisco-regulation that goes on that
has to be considered.
So when you're mediating, likeyou said, we're getting to
(09:21):
agreements, we're in agreementof what we landed.
It might not be my optimal, itmight not be what I'm really
searching for, but I'm findingthat piece of I can do this.
My experience in this is thatif we get agreements in place,
(09:44):
we've set boundaries At leastthe notion of boundaries that
need to be adhered to.
I'm talking about parentingplans and custom invisitation.
By and large, then at least Ihave something to push against
if there is an agreement that isnot adhered to.
(10:06):
I've got something that I cantake to if I have to go to court
that said listen, we have thisagreement.
This is not working.
We need to make a change andthis is why it isn't working.
But in the early stages of theseparations, energies are super
high.
People aren't sure what theirrights are, they're not sure
(10:27):
what they really want, theydon't know where the off-ramps
are and how to get to that placeof eliminating the chaos that
these children are caught in themiddle of.
Because without agreements,without court orders, as almost
all of my listeners and clientsknow, is that we're in the wild
(10:53):
wild west.
Yeah, I agree, if we can gointo that mediation area, then
we can start to get traction.
But you and I were talkingbefore we started this about
some of the buzzwords out there,about the personality types,
(11:13):
about narcissism, aboutpersonality disorders, about
these pieces, and people come inwith this notion that their ex
is, that They've read about it,they meet certain criteria and
they are self-diagnosing thatand it may or may not be true
(11:34):
and, as you and I were talking,if that is where somebody's
mindset is stuck in that victimnotion of they are a victim of
covert narcissism or you fill inthe blank domestic violence or
whatever there are, and I wantjustice, I want an uneven,
(11:57):
balanced parenting plan.
I want to have it my way.
Then they are looking down thethe pipeline of a long, long
road before they get tosomething, and sometimes that's
necessary.
I mean, there is domesticviolence out there, there is
(12:21):
covert narcissism that blowsthrough boundaries, and we've
got to get that.
But in my experience, thesolution, even if there's court
orders, isn't the court order.
The solution is how younavigate, managing that type of
(12:46):
personality and engaging from it.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So yeah, I kind of you actually said something
really interesting last weekwhen we spoke and I might have
still so you know my nickname ormy moniker's chief peacekeeper
someone in 2012, I helped acouple with the divorce that
were part of the Paula NativeAmerican tribe and at the, when
we were signing all the finalpaperwork, the wife and mom said
(13:15):
you're my chief peacekeeper,and so I said, oh, I'm going to
steal that from you, is that OK?
So then I trademarked it, butI've been, I've been borrowing
from you the last week, which is, you know, when people file for
divorce, I assume, I assumethat the goal is to get divorced
.
So settling into a two and ahalf year litigation fight,
(13:38):
that's not moving things along,you know, and again, it is
necessary for people that needthat or under circumstances that
it's required.
I get that.
There's tons of lawyers outthere that can help people.
I'm not, I'm not poo pooing thelitigation process for for
those in need.
I'm just saying that if youstart down the road of
(14:00):
litigation, you will not getdivorced in California, at least
for two, two and a half years.
So hunker down, so like, ifyou're filing and it's happening
, why not try to, you know, moveit along in a way that can be
more, you know, more in linewith the, with the end of goals.
But I think for high conflictcases and people dealing with
(14:24):
that, that sort of personality,that premediation coaching is
absolutely necessary and it putsyou in the framework.
I have an email in my inbox thatI got just this morning from a
couple who you know I have a 90%success rate.
So there are cases that I don'tsucceed in helping people reach
an agreement.
(14:44):
Any mediator that tells adifferent is not being truthful.
But in this case, mom was justtake it or leave it from the
very beginning, never came offof her, you know points never
was willing to negotiate and wedidn't and we weren't successful
.
They've been in litigation, Ithink, for about the last 14
(15:05):
months and she just emailed Ineed to get out of this, I can't
deal with it anymore.
Can you reach out?
Can you see if he'll come backto the table?
It's just overwhelming All thethings that you know you could
expect to hear.
And I've reached out, you know,and I got an email saying that
you know he doesn't think thatit's possible to mediate based
on our original interactions,where there wasn't any, you know
(15:28):
, negotiation, but I hadencouraged her and anyone in a
situation like hers to takeadvantage of the coaching
element like that you offer,right?
So you know when you're tryingto negotiate with a high
conflict, understanding you knowhow the mediation process is
(15:48):
going to work.
Like the structure like yousaid, are we dealing?
What's our agenda at thebeginning?
How do you, what are themeetings look like?
I'm having a clearunderstanding of what's coming.
It will be helpful.
And then working with yourselfor, you know, coach to help game
plan for discussing, like thedifficult issues.
(16:10):
So you know when you work withthe coach.
Or you know when you're gettinga consulting attorney, you know
what's coming, like thequestions that you have to
answer are not hidden, butanticipating the difficult
topics and game planning for howyou're going to deal with that.
And also understanding oranticipating the triggers that
(16:35):
might come about from the otherside and their reactions and how
to work through those to avoid,you know, those becoming huge
obstacles in the discussion.
Right, we want to focus onsolutions.
Triggers take us over.
You know here, here, here.
But you know if we're trying togo over here, you have to kind
of manage those and if you'vebeen dealing in that
(16:57):
relationship.
Obviously, if you've gotten tothe divorce point, you know,
point, those triggers have ledus in the wrong direction.
So when the separation processkind of game planning and
understanding and anticipatingall those and just learning the
skills you know to deal with theemotions and stay focused, I
mean I think like the agenda.
(17:18):
So also something you saidearlier is it's interesting I
wouldn't say in my mediationpractice that I have when I'm
talking to people and I'm gameplanning when they hire me and
I'm game planning for you know,what are we going to do first,
you know, in terms of our topics, I don't always start with
(17:38):
parenting.
It depends.
But you know, like you said,parenting has the most emotional
components.
Assets and debts are obviouslyalso emotional, but sometimes
it's more about the numbers andif we can start to make progress
, even on something as little asokay, so you drive the Volvo,
(17:59):
you drive the Tesla, okay, isthat how you guys want to do it?
Like even little incrementalsteps like that get us on the
momentum path towards agreement.
So sometimes I think that youknow, starting with the
financials and then moving intoparenting can help build
(18:19):
momentum towards agreements andmake it a more of a
collaborative approach becausethe parenting obstacle can be
immense.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, and when I see parents coming in in my practice
, by the very nature of mypractice, this seems to be the
big component.
Money plays a factor.
Money plays a factor in supportissues, the alimony issues and
(18:52):
all of those things.
And then custody comes sneakingin under that guise and what I
try to do with my clients inthat is look at what the damage
is, and there is, without adoubt, damage that comes for the
children with protractedlitigation.
(19:14):
It is an absolute happening.
So we've got to look at whatthat means coming back and forth
.
Because what I've noticed andI've written about this in some
blogs and I've talked about iton some of the podcasts is is
that if we can take money out ofthat custody conversation for
(19:38):
the most part and understandthat a person is going to pay,
whatever they're gonna paythere's gonna be if they get to
court, there are the guidelinesthat come along and that's just
where it lands.
And you can stream about it andyou can kick and moan and you
can be resentful about it, butit is that.
But a parent's job in my mindis to have the attitude that no
(20:04):
matter what takes place here,I'm responsible for that child's
well-being and if it means Idon't want an equal timeshare
with the other parent thatthere's a really good chance
unless there's something in theway that is just blaring in
(20:24):
terms of domestic violence orchild abuse or addiction that we
can really get our hands aroundthat.
This is where it's gonna land.
And, as uncomfortable as thatmay be for somebody, what I hear
often from parents, fathers andmothers is that that other
(20:47):
parent doesn't have the time orthe availability to do what they
say that they're going to do.
And my comment to them is thatmay very well be true.
However, this is a newsituation.
It isn't what it was Exactlyand people make adjustments.
Gotta give them that chance tofail and we get to see how those
(21:11):
adjustments work.
And if it doesn't work and Idon't lean on that person
constantly about what a badparent they are, about how they
don't show up, about what theydo wrong I'm just kind of
leaning into that of when thekids show up, I take care of the
(21:35):
kids, I let them go over thereand I let that person either
fail or succeed in theirparenting piece.
There's usually and thishappens post judgment or post
agreement oftentimes is there'san organic outcome and that
(21:56):
parenting plan moves to where itfits the kids better, if I am
not chasing money or I'm notdisparaging that other parent,
no matter what I might feelabout them.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, it's a narrow scope of issues at that point
because we've already gotten thedivorce final, so it's just
about.
It kind of condenses the focus.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Okay, and a parent that is struggling might be
picking up the phone and saying,listen, I got to go out of town
.
Can you take the kids?
I've got this going on.
Can you take the kids?
And rather than going, you juststart keeping up to your deal.
You shouldn't have equalcustody, you're just going.
Yep, got it, thanks.
And it leans in and it leans inand it leans in and it takes,
(22:41):
it scrubs off the energy of theconflict, because it's easy to
keep conflict going.
I've got an idea, I've got aperspective and I'm going to jam
it down your throat.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, you know, what's also interesting is, in a
litigated setting, the scope ofissues.
At least, you know, very rarelyin my litigation life did we
deal with certain things likecertain things like new partners
, like you know, how will thekids be introduced to new
partners?
The judge didn't want to hearabout that and didn't want to
(23:15):
read about it because they'relike let's deal with the core
issues and get this like we'rehaving enough problem with this,
why deal with something overhere?
So in mediation, though, I meanyou have an opportunity to talk
about, I think, a larger scopeof issues and things that I know
as someone that has been inthis, and you know as someone
that I've been doing this workfor 20 years.
(23:37):
You know, I know that's comingright as a professional, so I'd
be doing a disservice to not tryto bring it up and just say,
hey, you, just so you knowthere's these things that you
can agree on about you knowunder what circumstances kids
might be introduced to newpartners.
If you can't agree, then itjust won't be in.
But I just want to give us achance to talk about it in case
you know, in case that's helpfulfor the future and a lot of
(24:00):
people talk about it and atleast by talking about it, and
then a lot of people put certainyou know rules or in agreements
into the settlement.
But you know, bringing it upand having an idea that and
really just getting it out there.
We know this is coming.
It might already have happened,but you know we're talking
about the future.
I mean, you're just dealingwith a larger scope of issues
(24:21):
that you can address andcollaborate on and solve before
they become a problem later.
One question I have I hadsomeone ask me the other day
like they're a client or they'rea potential client.
They said, so what if I let itget?
Like how will that affect mykids?
And I was trying to like painta picture of just like really
(24:43):
small ways that I've seen, likecause, like you know we all,
like you could go online andread about you know, or what you
know, just like major, you knowthings that happened.
But I was like trying to givelike okay, so like you know, I
know your brother lives with you.
They live together right nowbut in the future like it'll be
him and his brother.
And then you know, and I waslike you know, so what if your
(25:06):
you know, brother, kind ofrefers to the kids and says, hey
, your mom, your mom, you knowyou got to go see your mom today
and then if your wife's parentsgo, okay, your dad is coming
over to get you.
Like, is that like, can youpaint a picture of a little like
?
The kids are half each of themright, they can't rip out the
quote, unquote bad half, youknow.
(25:26):
So like when someone sayssomething that is in their own
family that is negative, theycan't like that, they
internalize it.
Is there an example that youwould have given in that sense?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah.
So I think that in the best ofsituations, in the absolute best
of situations, we've got kidsthat are sharing two households.
They're going back and forthtwice a week at minimum, and
(26:01):
oftentimes three or four or fivetimes a week.
Yeah, and we as human beings,our systems settle around
orientation, where am I, where'smy stuff?
I forgot something?
(26:23):
Can we go back and get it?
And then there's anothercontact and the kids don't get a
chance to settle in.
And even if there's anagreement, this is what's going
on Now.
If we're going to litigate this.
The kids are going back andforth in a hostile environment
(26:47):
in two homes where they are lessthan the focus of what's
happening.
So parents, let's slip inuendoand energetic spot Spikes at the
other parent and, even if it'sunintended, that child takes a
(27:11):
hit and that nervous systemdoesn't settle.
So we want to be able to reallylook at our children through
the eyeglass of how do wemitigate that for them?
As best as we can and bygetting early agreements.
(27:33):
If we could just get temporaryagreements in place while we're
going through the process.
Sometimes I've seen mediatorsjust manage that little bit and
that holds long enough forpeople to get through the
litigated process that takes thekids out of the middle of this.
That's a success, right.
(27:55):
But an example to your point isIf we don't have things in
place, a parent can break anyagreement that is there because
(28:18):
they haven't got a piece ofpaper that they can show
somebody that says this is whatthe orders are, and a parent can
go pick up a kid out of schoolearly not on their time take
them out of school, take themacross whatever, and that puts a
child in a really untenableplace and our children
(28:41):
co-regulate off of us.
They are not able to regulatetheir own nervous systems.
They don't know how, especiallypre-teens and teenagers, we
look at their problems withregulation.
Those are a product of theirdysregulated parents as they've
(29:01):
grown up.
So when parents are goingthrough this process, even when
they're going through mediation,they have to be able to have
somebody hold their hand and saylisten, let's get to what's
important here and let's scruboff your anger.
(29:22):
You can go to your therapist,you can work this anger through
with your therapist.
That's appropriate.
You're going to get your growth.
But here we've got to tone thisdown and we've got to look at
what the effects are going to beon the children and what the
long-term outcomes are going tobe for them.
What do you want?
(29:42):
Because I think some of thethings that happen, not all of
them and I want the listeners tohear that I am not downplaying
their realities.
Sometimes their realities aredistorted and there is a
(30:03):
hypervigilance or a reallycontrolling piece that they
don't want to let go of that isgoing to keep them in an excited
state or a hyper-excited state,which is going to keep their
children in a hyper-excitedstate, which is going to end up
(30:26):
in behavioral problems at schooland dysregulated adults as
adults.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I agree, I agree, yeah, I think.
Again, I'm not trying todownplay the needs, I hate to
just give examples, but I washaving lunch yesterday and I ran
into the wife of a rabbi thatwas in my congregation when I
(30:59):
was a kid and I was having lunchwith an attorney who's about 65
, and she's a family lawattorney, and then we were
leaving and the ex-wife of therabbi waiting me over, she said
is that blah, blah, blah?
And I said yeah, and so thiswas my attorney for my divorce
and I just have to tell you andthis is a very well-respected
(31:20):
attorney, she seems like a nicelady and the ex-wife of the
rabbi, she says that was theworst decision I ever made.
And so I guess what we'rereally talking about is this is
not a perfect system.
But again, what I said at thebeginning, the other side of
this is, I know, is imperfectand it's just about trying to
(31:45):
deal with your reality andunderstanding that the court
system and lawyers are not builtto solve your relationship
issues with your co-parent inthe future and are just trying
to manage those things as bestas the system permits.
(32:06):
And it's a very imperfectreality.
So, trying to approach this ina collaborative way, in a way
that helps deal with thepost-divorce conflict.
But everything you said aboutthe managing, I agree with you
that these things, once you getthrough the divorce process and
(32:32):
if you can approach it in theway that you were saying, it
will organically fall into place.
Even if it says 50-50 custodyat first, people make
adjustments when the conflictcan be reduced.
But in terms of those temporaryagreements, I had a call last
week with a couple that we setup a temporary parenting plane
(32:56):
over two years ago and I haven'theard from them.
And they called and they saidthey want to come back and try
to finish the process.
But I hear this all the timethat they've been abiding by the
plan that we put in place andthat has helped them live
through this reality, eventhough we haven't advanced
(33:16):
through the divorce processbeyond that.
But, like you said, that alonejust that one piece has helped
them deal with each other andprotect the kids and they have a
blended family, which can belayers of complexity as well.
One thing also that came up inthe case I just referenced is
(33:38):
that and I'm not sure if you seethis much, but in this case mom
basically raised the father'schild who we had with an
ex-spouse before they met, andthis couple was together like 12
years, so from like age one to10 or one to 11, this mom was a
(33:59):
stepmom but she basically waslike half the time raising this
person as a mother and now shehas very little access to that
child and that was hard for herto deal with, which is why they
stall.
I feel like I'm giving you allmy failure examples, but which
(34:20):
was why we got the temporaryagreement but we couldn't reach
permanent agreement.
So she wanted to litigate forrights to that child and then
found out over the last twoyears that that's just not an
option.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I'm going to hunt and I think it's important when
we're talking about strategiesfor mediating in these
situations, attorneys don't takea lot of time to walk you
through or to pull things outthat are important information
in terms of if you move in thisdirection.
(34:53):
These are some of the thingsthat we can expect, but if we
start to package this in thisway, we can do things in a
different way.
So sometimes for me, if I getsomebody early enough, they're
just thinking about separating.
We can pull out the finances,we can see where the hot points
(35:16):
are.
We can say, okay, what is itthat you really need versus what
you really want?
How can we find off ramps foryou in this direction?
How can we get you throughthose pieces so you don't have
to litigate?
And, as a coach, what mediatorcan I put you with that I think
(35:37):
can do a good job here?
And if not mediation, who isthe best attorney that I can put
you with to find solution or tolitigate this in the best
possible manner for you, giveneverything that's here?
And when people have that typeof information, they do so much
(36:00):
better, they make better choicesand their search for quote,
unquote justice or retributiongets downgraded, so solution can
happen.
(36:21):
Anytime people separate, there'sa reason for that and it's not
because they're getting along.
And usually there is animosityat that split and there's not
everybody is on board.
Some people get blindsided byit.
(36:44):
They are not prepared for it,they are put into a tailspin
around it and until they can gettheir bearing, they shouldn't
be making a move with it.
They should just be trying tofigure it out, because the other
person has already gone throughthe process and they kind of
the trains in motion and whenthis break happens, there isn't
(37:11):
an orientation and there isanger, there's grief, there's
betrayal, there's all of thesethings that come up that have to
be managed, and that's not whatattorneys do no.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Well, they might listen to you for 5.15 hour, but
they're not going to help youmanage it.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Right, and in listening to you for 5.15 hour
they're also talking about it.
It's like what's the golf gameand all of that other stuff?
And it's like, no, I need toget here and I'm not getting
there, I don't know.
So having somebody that is inthe middle of that, that is a
(37:56):
neutral in the process, that canhelp each person mediate those
pieces, gives the opportunityfor solution.
But even I think, Scott and I'dlike your feedback in this, but
(38:17):
my experience that even in that, Somebody that's really trying
to get through this and work tosolution, even if their X or
soon to be X is confrontationalin the process, with the help of
(38:40):
somebody outside of themediation process, coaching them
into, yeah, this is where youput your foot on the accelerator
and this is where you back off.
This is where you've gotleverage.
This is where you don't payattention to, where you mix this
stuff up and what's the bottomline here that you want to work
to is not just valuable, butit's almost a necessity.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, well, I agree.
I mean chances are that acouple has already experienced
that like venting or reacting ithasn't helped them see eye to
eye in the past, right.
So like it's about having thatcoaching and avoiding that, that
(39:26):
taking us off the freeway rampin the wrong direction, right,
is really really important.
But what you also said ishaving a coach that, like
yourself certainly I mean yourwhole perspective when I first
saw your website and watched thepodcast is like a million
(39:47):
percent right on the tip.
You also have to help break thereality to them.
Like you said, they want unevenparenting In California.
If you're in the scope ofnormal and loving and regular
(40:08):
quote unquote and you want 50-50custody, you're probably going
to get it.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And that's almost the standard throughout the country
.
At this point there's a fewplaces that lean in the other
direction, but that's becomingthe standard.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
And so when the mediator breaks that news,
because someone comes in and say, yeah, I want 90 percent
custody because this person is ahorrible person, or they're
just not, they haven't beenaround, like you said, they're
looking in the past.
I've been the primary parent,they work all the time, work
till 9 pm, or they haven't beenavailable or they've been
full-andering in Las Vegas orwhatever the situation is.
(40:44):
And then we're already startingto get on the wrong path.
If I'm the one that says, ok,well, what do you think?
And the other side says, well,I want 50-50 custody, or that's
a given, or we're not.
This isn't going to happen.
And now we got.
If the mediator is the onebreaking the reality to the
(41:05):
person, it sometimes can makethe mediator viewed as not
neutral.
And that's another reason thatyou need that coaching, because
you need to stay in theframework of look, if a mediator
is in business and they've beendoing this for a while, they
are not on anyone's side, mostlikely.
(41:26):
And you need the coaching tounderstand don't go down that
road, because now you're goingto end up having to hire a new
mediator because it's not goingto be working or you're going to
not go through mediation.
You have to stay focused.
But if someone like you isbreaking that reality to them in
advance and helping themunderstand that, but then maybe
(41:46):
game planning for what they cannegotiate, it just makes for a
much more likely situation wherepeople can be successful Unless
you disagree.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
No, I fully agree with that.
And sometimes when somebodycomes to me and they say I want
50-50 custody and it's my rightand I should be able to have
that, I think it's also worththe discussion and I often have
it with them is like, okay, Iget that.
That's why you want number one.
Why do you want it Number two?
Are you really capable of that?
(42:24):
Yeah, by capable, I don't meanthat you're an incompetent
parent.
What are your time constraintsand where are these children
best served?
And I know that you're mad atyour soon to be ex, but Is
aftercare better?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Is aftercare till 7 pm better than with mom or dad?
I mean, yeah, these are thesort of discussions that you can
have in a mediated orcollaborative practice In court.
It becomes just about thepercentages right In a fight.
(43:03):
You don't get to delve deeper,really, as to the reality.
So, yeah, we have thosediscussions all the time.
So what time do you work till?
Well, usually I work from 10 to8.
Well, so where are the kidsgoing to be from three days?
You know, these are the sort ofdiscussions that we have to
have.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah, and then just bringing in.
I think also you know aparent's need to be a better
parent and that doesn't meanyou're not a good parent already
but to really understand youknow attachment and what the
child's needs are and wherethey're going to get met, and as
a parent where you can actuallydo a better job of meeting them
(43:41):
in that and not having equalcustody Because you're better
rested, you're more attuned,you're able to be more present
because you're not off doingsomething else, that you're
front and center and that'simportant.
That's not like being aDisneyland mom or dad.
(44:04):
It's about optimizing that timewith knowing what good
parenting is and what goodboundaries with children are and
how to really meet them andmeet their needs.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah, you know.
Another quick example of whatkind of happens, you know, when
you litigate versus mediate Iget calls all the time from
people that are already divorcedand went through litigation,
and this just came up last week,which is why I bring it up.
But, like, my parenting plansays that vacations, you know,
(44:40):
we each get 14 days or whatevernumber of days per year.
It doesn't say what counts as avacation day.
So is it just the days that I'movertaking the other person?
Because that's what they'resaying, but when you do the math
, that means they can take thekids, you know, for like 20 days
of a month because they cangame it and like these are.
(45:02):
So, like when you, when youmediate a settlement, like your
lawyer mediator should bewriting this or you know whoever
the mediator you kind of delveone step deeper.
Okay, so I understand, yeah,there's a number of days a year
that you agree to, but what iswhat counts as a vacation day?
And these are the sort ofdiscussions that are hard.
That one layer I'm not sayingI'm a genius for bringing this
(45:25):
up, it's kind of mediation 101,but it's just one layer deeper
and it can.
It can eliminate lots of futureproblems.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
And if somebody comes in, knowing that, it's a much
easier job for you, it's a mucheasier pitch for everybody else.
It's laid out and to your point, I mean, the parenting plan is
the document that is going to bethe boundary setting for most
of what can happen with boundarysettings and to keep the the
(45:56):
conflict at bay to the degreethat it can, and you know
spelling out specifics, like yousaid.
But you know a vacation isseven days, it's not 10 and it
can't be parsed out and theseare the holidays and it can't be
(46:17):
added to and played with andthings around passports and
travel and all of those thingsthat typically don't get put in
when you're litigating, unlessyou're really adept at when you
put that in front of a judge.
This is, these are the thingsthat he can sign off on.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
But to your point, yeah, and for 30% of people fire
their family law attorney.
So when the second person comeson, they know that it's a S
show right, like they're justtrying to get to the core stuff
because they might want to help.
But I mean they're like, oh,I'm the second person in, so we
already know this is a problem.
You know.
(46:58):
Not that I'm judging, but, likeyou know, second attorneys in
already kind of know thatthere's there's some reason that
the first one didn't work outwhether it was fees or or you
know the person just beingunhappy with them.
So they're really focusing onthe core at that point, not that
one layer deeper.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Right, but I would also say that a lot of attorneys
can look and go yeah, I knowwhy it didn't work, Because it's
a Again.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I think that, just remember.
I just want to highlight onemore thing I mean about your
site and your this podcast.
I mean I could not agree withyour perspective more.
I think you're.
I think you're really doing areally great deed for society
and in reaching people in theway that you're reaching.
I commend you for that.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Thank you, scott.
I appreciate that and you knowthere is such, and for our
listeners on this podcast,there's a moment in here and
actually there's moments alongthe timeline when you're
litigating in this that to lookat where you're emotionally
(48:05):
stuck in the process and notlooking at the practical pieces
that need to come to get throughthis, because life in motion,
in the mainstream of our lives,is where we want to be and this
(48:28):
whole thing about divorce andcustody battles is this, eddie,
that comes off of that river andgets you stuck in spinning
where you're not going down thatriver and really being engaged
in life the way that we want tobe, and our children as well.
So to be able to stop along theway and go.
Is there a place here where Ican get a mediator in to finish
(48:57):
this piece?
You know, for sometimesattorneys, this looks like we're
going to do a four way.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Great.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
You know we've got two people and their attorneys
sitting at a table.
That's a how my first divorcegot finished Two and a half
years later, 25 years ago, yeah,and nothing's really changed in
the process.
And sometimes you're going tohave the other side that's stuck
(49:31):
.
They're going to stay stuck andyou're going to have to go
through the litigation process.
But I want you know, throughthis discussion that I'm having
with you, Scott, to have thatplace where the listeners, my
clients, can stop in a momentand go.
Is there an offer up here?
(49:51):
Yeah, we bring somebody in andtake another shot at this,
because sometimes it works.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, it takes 1 person to make that, that
initiate that thought, butthat's about 20% of my business
actually is people in litigationexiting and, like you said,
maybe it's just a piece or maybeit's the whole thing, but it's
absolutely possible.
I want everyone to know that youcan exit and you can reach
(50:20):
agreements after you start.
You know a contested processbut you know 1 person has to be
willing to come to that realityor that decision and then they
have to be willing to, you know,pitch it to the other side
because you know then they mightfeel like it's a sign of
weakness or something like that.
But you know to go down thatroad and in case the other side
(50:43):
is not interested but it can youcan absolutely do it and, like
I said earlier, I have hadclients that start with me, go
there and come back and it'sjust.
You know it's absolutelypossible and in fact I find that
people that are exitinglitigation are very motivated to
find solutions because they'veexperienced they've paid the
(51:03):
1012 $15,000 retainer and thensat there for eight months with
nothing happening.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Well, if they paid the 1015.
They've been in six months.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Now they've just exchanged tax returns and and
you know, chase bank statementsthat they might have already had
access to.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
you know, in a lot of cases, All right, scott, thanks
for coming in and have thisconversation.
I always like to from time totime get the perspective and the
notion of what mediation can doand kind of what it can't do
sometimes.
But to keep this in theconversation because alternative
(51:53):
dispute resolution in highconflict sometimes, yeah, and to
be open to having a discussionwith somebody other than a
litigating attorney that can atleast give you some perspective
of what that might look like andhow to get there.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, I agree.
Thank you for having me.
I hope that this was somethingI said that you know is is
helpful or educational, and Iappreciate you.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Absolutely, scott.
This has been episode 277principles and strategies for
mediating high conflict, divorceand custody with attorney and
peacekeeper Scott Levine.
Scott, thank you again,everybody that's listening, as
always.
Go have some fun and get intolife and enjoy this spinning
(52:47):
blue planet.
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(53:08):
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Welcome back, everybody, to theHigh Conflict Co-Parenting
Podcast with Brooke Olson, andthis week my guest is Scott
Levine, and Scott is an attorneywho no longer practices
litigation.
He is a peacekeeper, if youwill, or a peacemaker, and
(01:29):
focuses on mediation.
So this week's episode is 277,principles and Strategies for
Mediating High Conflict, divorceand Custody.
And what I want to do heretoday, scott, is kind of explore
this notion of mediating withhigh conflict couples, because
(01:55):
there is a notion, depending onwhere you sit, that it's not
productive and it can't be done.
And then there's another notionthat if we pull this apart we
go slow, we get some slowagreements and we begin to get
some traction in the process.
There's a possibility that wecan navigate that.
(02:22):
And I have clients come to meoften that use the buzzwords of
you know, my client or my exesat Narcissus or my ex's
borderline, and there's no waythat we can get together and
mediate this stuff.
And I start to hear theirstories and as their stories
(02:43):
unfold I get in the back of myhead that there's not a lot here
other than a lot of story.
And even with what you'retelling me, if we look at going
into court and we look atlitigating this stuff, it's
(03:03):
going to be a protracted mess.
And with the proper coachingand a good mediator that there's
a possibility that we can getto at least what is needed in
the moment to get results.
And when I talk about that Ithink that there's two.
(03:26):
You know, the two majorcomponents that I usually look
at are the finances and thecustody and visitation
agreements, and my experiencetells me that we don't get to
finances until we get to thecustody and visitation.
We've got to get through thatmess first, and that has got the
(03:48):
most emotion to it, and what Ifind in that process is the
emotion that comes along with.
That has people jumping over adollar to pick up a dime so to
be able to slow the process downfor them, get them out of their
(04:13):
anger, their resentment, theirbetrayal, their mis-frust, and
get down to an understanding ofif you don't choose to work this
piece out, or if you can't workthis out, you need to
(04:36):
understand fully what that'sgoing to look like when you get
in front of a Family CourtService Mediator or a Judge or
working with a GAO or all of theother messed up things that
come along in this arena.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
At 45 minutes with a Family Court Mediator to figure
out your whole life.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Right, right, and running on this notion of they
are going to hear me, they'regoing to understand and they're
going to get it, and they'venever heard anything crazy
before.
Right, they hear it five times aday and they don't have the
resources to really pull thisstuff together.
(05:17):
I mean, for me, I have a lot ofattorneys send their clients to
me to prep them for mediation,not just Family Court Services,
but for private mediation aswell.
And what I am interested inhearing from you, kind of off
the jump here, Scott, is whenyou are entering this contractor
(05:41):
, this conversation with peopleto mediate, what's the ideal
situation for the clients toshow up for you with?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, well, you know.
First let me thank you forhaving me.
I don't know who the other 276guests were before me, but I'm
glad we got it in.
I first want to just kind ofhighlight something you said
because it's interesting to meand I know we're going to kind
of go back and forth.
(06:14):
I'm sure we'll get to thatanswer in a sec.
But the alternative is really,when people come and consult
with me and they're posing someof these high conflict
situations, I will tell themlook, I'm not trying to sell you
(06:38):
on me, I'm not trying to sellyou on the process.
But I need you to understandwhat the alternative looks like,
because that is absolutely nota perfect solution and I'm not
saying that what I offer is aperfect solution.
But you have to understandwhat's coming if you're not
successful, because there's nodoubt I can explain and paint
(07:00):
that picture in terms of thetime that you're going to be
stuck in the process, the costand the impact on your stress
level, your emotions, yourwell-being mental and, of course
, your children, your whole life.
So I know what that looks like.
I dealt in that world for 12years and for the last 12 years
I've been a peacekeepingattorney, I mediate only.
(07:24):
But the other thing that I thinkis really important to
understand is that and this ismy kind of new buzzword, that
I'm kind of mixing in the mixwhen I'm talking to folks that
have these issues in theconsultation is imposed
solutions.
So even if you litigate and youend it and you get to the end,
(07:48):
imposed solutions are seldomadhered to.
So that presents new obstaclesafter the divorce process.
So people that have solutionsimposed on them through the
litigation process drag theirfeet and don't abide by the
rules that are imposed.
So you get to the end, but isthat the end in your experience,
(08:11):
or is that just the newbeginning?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
That's often the new beginning.
I mean, there are so manypost-judgment motions that come
up and so many revisitingcustody and energies.
If they aren't encouraged notjust allowed, but encouraged to
(08:34):
settle down and get into themainstream of life, start to get
to work, get your kids toschool, find joy in your life,
have partnerships, havefriendships.
Life is a struggle, life isstressful and people are living
in that stressful environment ina heightened activated state
(08:58):
that has an effect on theirchildren, because it has a huge
effect on them, and there's thisco-regulation that goes on that
has to be considered.
So when you're mediating, likeyou said, we're getting to
(09:21):
agreements, we're in agreementof what we landed.
It might not be my optimal, itmight not be what I'm really
searching for, but I'm findingthat piece of I can do this.
My experience in this is thatif we get agreements in place,
(09:44):
we've set boundaries At leastthe notion of boundaries that
need to be adhered to.
I'm talking about parentingplans and custom invisitation.
By and large, then at least Ihave something to push against
if there is an agreement that isnot adhered to.
(10:06):
I've got something that I cantake to if I have to go to court
that said listen, we have thisagreement.
This is not working.
We need to make a change andthis is why it isn't working.
But in the early stages of theseparations, energies are super
high.
People aren't sure what theirrights are, they're not sure
(10:27):
what they really want, theydon't know where the off-ramps
are and how to get to that placeof eliminating the chaos that
these children are caught in themiddle of.
Because without agreements,without court orders, as almost
all of my listeners and clientsknow, is that we're in the wild
(10:53):
wild west.
Yeah, I agree, if we can gointo that mediation area, then
we can start to get traction.
But you and I were talkingbefore we started this about
some of the buzzwords out there,about the personality types,
(11:13):
about narcissism, aboutpersonality disorders, about
these pieces, and people come inwith this notion that their ex
is, that They've read about it,they meet certain criteria and
they are self-diagnosing thatand it may or may not be true
(11:34):
and, as you and I were talking,if that is where somebody's
mindset is stuck in that victimnotion of they are a victim of
covert narcissism or you fill inthe blank domestic violence or
whatever there are, and I wantjustice, I want an uneven,
(11:57):
balanced parenting plan.
I want to have it my way.
Then they are looking down thethe pipeline of a long, long
road before they get tosomething, and sometimes that's
necessary.
I mean, there is domesticviolence out there, there is
(12:21):
covert narcissism that blowsthrough boundaries, and we've
got to get that.
But in my experience, thesolution, even if there's court
orders, isn't the court order.
The solution is how younavigate, managing that type of
(12:46):
personality and engaging from it.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So yeah, I kind of you actually said something
really interesting last weekwhen we spoke and I might have
still so you know my nickname ormy moniker's chief peacekeeper
someone in 2012, I helped acouple with the divorce that
were part of the Paula NativeAmerican tribe and at the, when
we were signing all the finalpaperwork, the wife and mom said
(13:15):
you're my chief peacekeeper,and so I said, oh, I'm going to
steal that from you, is that OK?
So then I trademarked it, butI've been, I've been borrowing
from you the last week, which is, you know, when people file for
divorce, I assume, I assumethat the goal is to get divorced
.
So settling into a two and ahalf year litigation fight,
(13:38):
that's not moving things along,you know, and again, it is
necessary for people that needthat or under circumstances that
it's required.
I get that.
There's tons of lawyers outthere that can help people.
I'm not, I'm not poo pooing thelitigation process for for
those in need.
I'm just saying that if youstart down the road of
(14:00):
litigation, you will not getdivorced in California, at least
for two, two and a half years.
So hunker down, so like, ifyou're filing and it's happening
, why not try to, you know, moveit along in a way that can be
more, you know, more in linewith the, with the end of goals.
But I think for high conflictcases and people dealing with
(14:24):
that, that sort of personality,that premediation coaching is
absolutely necessary and it putsyou in the framework.
I have an email in my inbox thatI got just this morning from a
couple who you know I have a 90%success rate.
So there are cases that I don'tsucceed in helping people reach
an agreement.
(14:44):
Any mediator that tells adifferent is not being truthful.
But in this case, mom was justtake it or leave it from the
very beginning, never came offof her, you know points never
was willing to negotiate and wedidn't and we weren't successful
.
They've been in litigation, Ithink, for about the last 14
(15:05):
months and she just emailed Ineed to get out of this, I can't
deal with it anymore.
Can you reach out?
Can you see if he'll come backto the table?
It's just overwhelming All thethings that you know you could
expect to hear.
And I've reached out, you know,and I got an email saying that
you know he doesn't think thatit's possible to mediate based
on our original interactions,where there wasn't any, you know
(15:28):
, negotiation, but I hadencouraged her and anyone in a
situation like hers to takeadvantage of the coaching
element like that you offer,right?
So you know when you're tryingto negotiate with a high
conflict, understanding you knowhow the mediation process is
(15:48):
going to work.
Like the structure like yousaid, are we dealing?
What's our agenda at thebeginning?
How do you, what are themeetings look like?
I'm having a clearunderstanding of what's coming.
It will be helpful.
And then working with yourselfor, you know, coach to help game
plan for discussing, like thedifficult issues.
(16:10):
So you know when you work withthe coach.
Or you know when you're gettinga consulting attorney, you know
what's coming, like thequestions that you have to
answer are not hidden, butanticipating the difficult
topics and game planning for howyou're going to deal with that.
And also understanding oranticipating the triggers that
(16:35):
might come about from the otherside and their reactions and how
to work through those to avoid,you know, those becoming huge
obstacles in the discussion.
Right, we want to focus onsolutions.
Triggers take us over.
You know here, here, here.
But you know if we're trying togo over here, you have to kind
of manage those and if you'vebeen dealing in that
(16:57):
relationship.
Obviously, if you've gotten tothe divorce point, you know,
point, those triggers have ledus in the wrong direction.
So when the separation processkind of game planning and
understanding and anticipatingall those and just learning the
skills you know to deal with theemotions and stay focused, I
mean I think like the agenda.
(17:18):
So also something you saidearlier is it's interesting I
wouldn't say in my mediationpractice that I have when I'm
talking to people and I'm gameplanning when they hire me and
I'm game planning for you know,what are we going to do first,
you know, in terms of our topics, I don't always start with
(17:38):
parenting.
It depends.
But you know, like you said,parenting has the most emotional
components.
Assets and debts are obviouslyalso emotional, but sometimes
it's more about the numbers andif we can start to make progress
, even on something as little asokay, so you drive the Volvo,
(17:59):
you drive the Tesla, okay, isthat how you guys want to do it?
Like even little incrementalsteps like that get us on the
momentum path towards agreement.
So sometimes I think that youknow, starting with the
financials and then moving intoparenting can help build
(18:19):
momentum towards agreements andmake it a more of a
collaborative approach becausethe parenting obstacle can be
immense.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, and when I see parents coming in in my practice
, by the very nature of mypractice, this seems to be the
big component.
Money plays a factor.
Money plays a factor in supportissues, the alimony issues and
(18:52):
all of those things.
And then custody comes sneakingin under that guise and what I
try to do with my clients inthat is look at what the damage
is, and there is, without adoubt, damage that comes for the
children with protractedlitigation.
(19:14):
It is an absolute happening.
So we've got to look at whatthat means coming back and forth
.
Because what I've noticed andI've written about this in some
blogs and I've talked about iton some of the podcasts is is
that if we can take money out ofthat custody conversation for
(19:38):
the most part and understandthat a person is going to pay,
whatever they're gonna paythere's gonna be if they get to
court, there are the guidelinesthat come along and that's just
where it lands.
And you can stream about it andyou can kick and moan and you
can be resentful about it, butit is that.
But a parent's job in my mindis to have the attitude that no
(20:04):
matter what takes place here,I'm responsible for that child's
well-being and if it means Idon't want an equal timeshare
with the other parent thatthere's a really good chance
unless there's something in theway that is just blaring in
(20:24):
terms of domestic violence orchild abuse or addiction that we
can really get our hands aroundthat.
This is where it's gonna land.
And, as uncomfortable as thatmay be for somebody, what I hear
often from parents, fathers andmothers is that that other
(20:47):
parent doesn't have the time orthe availability to do what they
say that they're going to do.
And my comment to them is thatmay very well be true.
However, this is a newsituation.
It isn't what it was Exactlyand people make adjustments.
Gotta give them that chance tofail and we get to see how those
(21:11):
adjustments work.
And if it doesn't work and Idon't lean on that person
constantly about what a badparent they are, about how they
don't show up, about what theydo wrong I'm just kind of
leaning into that of when thekids show up, I take care of the
(21:35):
kids, I let them go over thereand I let that person either
fail or succeed in theirparenting piece.
There's usually and thishappens post judgment or post
agreement oftentimes is there'san organic outcome and that
(21:56):
parenting plan moves to where itfits the kids better, if I am
not chasing money or I'm notdisparaging that other parent,
no matter what I might feelabout them.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, it's a narrow scope of issues at that point
because we've already gotten thedivorce final, so it's just
about.
It kind of condenses the focus.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Okay, and a parent that is struggling might be
picking up the phone and saying,listen, I got to go out of town
.
Can you take the kids?
I've got this going on.
Can you take the kids?
And rather than going, you juststart keeping up to your deal.
You shouldn't have equalcustody, you're just going.
Yep, got it, thanks.
And it leans in and it leans inand it leans in and it takes,
(22:41):
it scrubs off the energy of theconflict, because it's easy to
keep conflict going.
I've got an idea, I've got aperspective and I'm going to jam
it down your throat.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, you know, what's also interesting is, in a
litigated setting, the scope ofissues.
At least, you know, very rarelyin my litigation life did we
deal with certain things likecertain things like new partners
, like you know, how will thekids be introduced to new
partners?
The judge didn't want to hearabout that and didn't want to
(23:15):
read about it because they'relike let's deal with the core
issues and get this like we'rehaving enough problem with this,
why deal with something overhere?
So in mediation, though, I meanyou have an opportunity to talk
about, I think, a larger scopeof issues and things that I know
as someone that has been inthis, and you know as someone
that I've been doing this workfor 20 years.
(23:37):
You know, I know that's comingright as a professional, so I'd
be doing a disservice to not tryto bring it up and just say,
hey, you, just so you knowthere's these things that you
can agree on about you knowunder what circumstances kids
might be introduced to newpartners.
If you can't agree, then itjust won't be in.
But I just want to give us achance to talk about it in case
you know, in case that's helpfulfor the future and a lot of
(24:00):
people talk about it and atleast by talking about it, and
then a lot of people put certainyou know rules or in agreements
into the settlement.
But you know, bringing it upand having an idea that and
really just getting it out there.
We know this is coming.
It might already have happened,but you know we're talking
about the future.
I mean, you're just dealingwith a larger scope of issues
(24:21):
that you can address andcollaborate on and solve before
they become a problem later.
One question I have I hadsomeone ask me the other day
like they're a client or they'rea potential client.
They said, so what if I let itget?
Like how will that affect mykids?
And I was trying to like painta picture of just like really
(24:43):
small ways that I've seen, likecause, like you know we all,
like you could go online andread about you know, or what you
know, just like major, you knowthings that happened.
But I was like trying to givelike okay, so like you know, I
know your brother lives with you.
They live together right nowbut in the future like it'll be
him and his brother.
And then you know, and I waslike you know, so what if your
(25:06):
you know, brother, kind ofrefers to the kids and says, hey
, your mom, your mom, you knowyou got to go see your mom today
and then if your wife's parentsgo, okay, your dad is coming
over to get you.
Like, is that like, can youpaint a picture of a little like
?
The kids are half each of themright, they can't rip out the
quote, unquote bad half, youknow.
(25:26):
So like when someone sayssomething that is in their own
family that is negative, theycan't like that, they
internalize it.
Is there an example that youwould have given in that sense?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Yeah.
So I think that in the best ofsituations, in the absolute best
of situations, we've got kidsthat are sharing two households.
They're going back and forthtwice a week at minimum, and
(26:01):
oftentimes three or four or fivetimes a week.
Yeah, and we as human beings,our systems settle around
orientation, where am I, where'smy stuff?
I forgot something?
(26:23):
Can we go back and get it?
And then there's anothercontact and the kids don't get a
chance to settle in.
And even if there's anagreement, this is what's going
on Now.
If we're going to litigate this.
The kids are going back andforth in a hostile environment
(26:47):
in two homes where they are lessthan the focus of what's
happening.
So parents, let's slip inuendoand energetic spot Spikes at the
other parent and, even if it'sunintended, that child takes a
(27:11):
hit and that nervous systemdoesn't settle.
So we want to be able to reallylook at our children through
the eyeglass of how do wemitigate that for them?
As best as we can and bygetting early agreements.
(27:33):
If we could just get temporaryagreements in place while we're
going through the process.
Sometimes I've seen mediatorsjust manage that little bit and
that holds long enough forpeople to get through the
litigated process that takes thekids out of the middle of this.
That's a success, right.
(27:55):
But an example to your point isIf we don't have things in
place, a parent can break anyagreement that is there because
(28:18):
they haven't got a piece ofpaper that they can show
somebody that says this is whatthe orders are, and a parent can
go pick up a kid out of schoolearly not on their time take
them out of school, take themacross whatever, and that puts a
child in a really untenableplace and our children
(28:41):
co-regulate off of us.
They are not able to regulatetheir own nervous systems.
They don't know how, especiallypre-teens and teenagers, we
look at their problems withregulation.
Those are a product of theirdysregulated parents as they've
(29:01):
grown up.
So when parents are goingthrough this process, even when
they're going through mediation,they have to be able to have
somebody hold their hand and saylisten, let's get to what's
important here and let's scruboff your anger.
(29:22):
You can go to your therapist,you can work this anger through
with your therapist.
That's appropriate.
You're going to get your growth.
But here we've got to tone thisdown and we've got to look at
what the effects are going to beon the children and what the
long-term outcomes are going tobe for them.
What do you want?
(29:42):
Because I think some of thethings that happen, not all of
them and I want the listeners tohear that I am not downplaying
their realities.
Sometimes their realities aredistorted and there is a
(30:03):
hypervigilance or a reallycontrolling piece that they
don't want to let go of that isgoing to keep them in an excited
state or a hyper-excited state,which is going to keep their
children in a hyper-excitedstate, which is going to end up
(30:26):
in behavioral problems at schooland dysregulated adults as
adults.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
I agree, I agree, yeah, I think.
Again, I'm not trying todownplay the needs, I hate to
just give examples, but I washaving lunch yesterday and I ran
into the wife of a rabbi thatwas in my congregation when I
(30:59):
was a kid and I was having lunchwith an attorney who's about 65
, and she's a family lawattorney, and then we were
leaving and the ex-wife of therabbi waiting me over, she said
is that blah, blah, blah?
And I said yeah, and so thiswas my attorney for my divorce
and I just have to tell you andthis is a very well-respected
(31:20):
attorney, she seems like a nicelady and the ex-wife of the
rabbi, she says that was theworst decision I ever made.
And so I guess what we'rereally talking about is this is
not a perfect system.
But again, what I said at thebeginning, the other side of
this is, I know, is imperfectand it's just about trying to
(31:45):
deal with your reality andunderstanding that the court
system and lawyers are not builtto solve your relationship
issues with your co-parent inthe future and are just trying
to manage those things as bestas the system permits.
(32:06):
And it's a very imperfectreality.
So, trying to approach this ina collaborative way, in a way
that helps deal with thepost-divorce conflict.
But everything you said aboutthe managing, I agree with you
that these things, once you getthrough the divorce process and
(32:32):
if you can approach it in theway that you were saying, it
will organically fall into place.
Even if it says 50-50 custodyat first, people make
adjustments when the conflictcan be reduced.
But in terms of those temporaryagreements, I had a call last
week with a couple that we setup a temporary parenting plane
(32:56):
over two years ago and I haven'theard from them.
And they called and they saidthey want to come back and try
to finish the process.
But I hear this all the timethat they've been abiding by the
plan that we put in place andthat has helped them live
through this reality, eventhough we haven't advanced
(33:16):
through the divorce processbeyond that.
But, like you said, that alonejust that one piece has helped
them deal with each other andprotect the kids and they have a
blended family, which can belayers of complexity as well.
One thing also that came up inthe case I just referenced is
(33:38):
that and I'm not sure if you seethis much, but in this case mom
basically raised the father'schild who we had with an
ex-spouse before they met, andthis couple was together like 12
years, so from like age one to10 or one to 11, this mom was a
(33:59):
stepmom but she basically waslike half the time raising this
person as a mother and now shehas very little access to that
child and that was hard for herto deal with, which is why they
stall.
I feel like I'm giving you allmy failure examples, but which
(34:20):
was why we got the temporaryagreement but we couldn't reach
permanent agreement.
So she wanted to litigate forrights to that child and then
found out over the last twoyears that that's just not an
option.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I'm going to hunt and I think it's important when
we're talking about strategiesfor mediating in these
situations, attorneys don't takea lot of time to walk you
through or to pull things outthat are important information
in terms of if you move in thisdirection.
(34:53):
These are some of the thingsthat we can expect, but if we
start to package this in thisway, we can do things in a
different way.
So sometimes for me, if I getsomebody early enough, they're
just thinking about separating.
We can pull out the finances,we can see where the hot points
(35:16):
are.
We can say, okay, what is itthat you really need versus what
you really want?
How can we find off ramps foryou in this direction?
How can we get you throughthose pieces so you don't have
to litigate?
And, as a coach, what mediatorcan I put you with that I think
(35:37):
can do a good job here?
And if not mediation, who isthe best attorney that I can put
you with to find solution or tolitigate this in the best
possible manner for you, giveneverything that's here?
And when people have that typeof information, they do so much
(36:00):
better, they make better choicesand their search for quote,
unquote justice or retributiongets downgraded, so solution can
happen.
(36:21):
Anytime people separate, there'sa reason for that and it's not
because they're getting along.
And usually there is animosityat that split and there's not
everybody is on board.
Some people get blindsided byit.
(36:44):
They are not prepared for it,they are put into a tailspin
around it and until they can gettheir bearing, they shouldn't
be making a move with it.
They should just be trying tofigure it out, because the other
person has already gone throughthe process and they kind of
the trains in motion and whenthis break happens, there isn't
(37:11):
an orientation and there isanger, there's grief, there's
betrayal, there's all of thesethings that come up that have to
be managed, and that's not whatattorneys do no.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Well, they might listen to you for 5.15 hour, but
they're not going to help youmanage it.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Right, and in listening to you for 5.15 hour
they're also talking about it.
It's like what's the golf gameand all of that other stuff?
And it's like, no, I need toget here and I'm not getting
there, I don't know.
So having somebody that is inthe middle of that, that is a
(37:56):
neutral in the process, that canhelp each person mediate those
pieces, gives the opportunityfor solution.
But even I think, Scott and I'dlike your feedback in this, but
(38:17):
my experience that even in that, Somebody that's really trying
to get through this and work tosolution, even if their X or
soon to be X is confrontationalin the process, with the help of
(38:40):
somebody outside of themediation process, coaching them
into, yeah, this is where youput your foot on the accelerator
and this is where you back off.
This is where you've gotleverage.
This is where you don't payattention to, where you mix this
stuff up and what's the bottomline here that you want to work
to is not just valuable, butit's almost a necessity.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, well, I agree.
I mean chances are that acouple has already experienced
that like venting or reacting ithasn't helped them see eye to
eye in the past, right.
So like it's about having thatcoaching and avoiding that, that
(39:26):
taking us off the freeway rampin the wrong direction, right,
is really really important.
But what you also said ishaving a coach that, like
yourself certainly I mean yourwhole perspective when I first
saw your website and watched thepodcast is like a million
(39:47):
percent right on the tip.
You also have to help break thereality to them.
Like you said, they want unevenparenting In California.
If you're in the scope ofnormal and loving and regular
(40:08):
quote unquote and you want 50-50custody, you're probably going
to get it.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And that's almost the standard throughout the country
.
At this point there's a fewplaces that lean in the other
direction, but that's becomingthe standard.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
And so when the mediator breaks that news,
because someone comes in and say, yeah, I want 90 percent
custody because this person is ahorrible person, or they're
just not, they haven't beenaround, like you said, they're
looking in the past.
I've been the primary parent,they work all the time, work
till 9 pm, or they haven't beenavailable or they've been
full-andering in Las Vegas orwhatever the situation is.
(40:44):
And then we're already startingto get on the wrong path.
If I'm the one that says, ok,well, what do you think?
And the other side says, well,I want 50-50 custody, or that's
a given, or we're not.
This isn't going to happen.
And now we got.
If the mediator is the onebreaking the reality to the
(41:05):
person, it sometimes can makethe mediator viewed as not
neutral.
And that's another reason thatyou need that coaching, because
you need to stay in theframework of look, if a mediator
is in business and they've beendoing this for a while, they
are not on anyone's side, mostlikely.
(41:26):
And you need the coaching tounderstand don't go down that
road, because now you're goingto end up having to hire a new
mediator because it's not goingto be working or you're going to
not go through mediation.
You have to stay focused.
But if someone like you isbreaking that reality to them in
advance and helping themunderstand that, but then maybe
(41:46):
game planning for what they cannegotiate, it just makes for a
much more likely situation wherepeople can be successful Unless
you disagree.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
No, I fully agree with that.
And sometimes when somebodycomes to me and they say I want
50-50 custody and it's my rightand I should be able to have
that, I think it's also worththe discussion and I often have
it with them is like, okay, Iget that.
That's why you want number one.
Why do you want it Number two?
Are you really capable of that?
(42:24):
Yeah, by capable, I don't meanthat you're an incompetent
parent.
What are your time constraintsand where are these children
best served?
And I know that you're mad atyour soon to be ex, but Is
aftercare better?
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Is aftercare till 7 pm better than with mom or dad?
I mean, yeah, these are thesort of discussions that you can
have in a mediated orcollaborative practice In court.
It becomes just about thepercentages right In a fight.
(43:03):
You don't get to delve deeper,really, as to the reality.
So, yeah, we have thosediscussions all the time.
So what time do you work till?
Well, usually I work from 10 to8.
Well, so where are the kidsgoing to be from three days?
You know, these are the sort ofdiscussions that we have to
have.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Yeah, and then just bringing in.
I think also you know aparent's need to be a better
parent and that doesn't meanyou're not a good parent already
but to really understand youknow attachment and what the
child's needs are and wherethey're going to get met, and as
a parent where you can actuallydo a better job of meeting them
(43:41):
in that and not having equalcustody Because you're better
rested, you're more attuned,you're able to be more present
because you're not off doingsomething else, that you're
front and center and that'simportant.
That's not like being aDisneyland mom or dad.
(44:04):
It's about optimizing that timewith knowing what good
parenting is and what goodboundaries with children are and
how to really meet them andmeet their needs.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah, you know.
Another quick example of whatkind of happens, you know, when
you litigate versus mediate Iget calls all the time from
people that are already divorcedand went through litigation,
and this just came up last week,which is why I bring it up.
But, like, my parenting plansays that vacations, you know,
(44:40):
we each get 14 days or whatevernumber of days per year.
It doesn't say what counts as avacation day.
So is it just the days that I'movertaking the other person?
Because that's what they'resaying, but when you do the math
, that means they can take thekids, you know, for like 20 days
of a month because they cangame it and like these are.
(45:02):
So, like when you, when youmediate a settlement, like your
lawyer mediator should bewriting this or you know whoever
the mediator you kind of delveone step deeper.
Okay, so I understand, yeah,there's a number of days a year
that you agree to, but what iswhat counts as a vacation day?
And these are the sort ofdiscussions that are hard.
That one layer I'm not sayingI'm a genius for bringing this
(45:25):
up, it's kind of mediation 101,but it's just one layer deeper
and it can.
It can eliminate lots of futureproblems.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
And if somebody comes in, knowing that, it's a much
easier job for you, it's a mucheasier pitch for everybody else.
It's laid out and to your point, I mean, the parenting plan is
the document that is going to bethe boundary setting for most
of what can happen with boundarysettings and to keep the the
(45:56):
conflict at bay to the degreethat it can, and you know
spelling out specifics, like yousaid.
But you know a vacation isseven days, it's not 10 and it
can't be parsed out and theseare the holidays and it can't be
(46:17):
added to and played with andthings around passports and
travel and all of those thingsthat typically don't get put in
when you're litigating, unlessyou're really adept at when you
put that in front of a judge.
This is, these are the thingsthat he can sign off on.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
But to your point, yeah, and for 30% of people fire
their family law attorney.
So when the second person comeson, they know that it's a S
show right, like they're justtrying to get to the core stuff
because they might want to help.
But I mean they're like, oh,I'm the second person in, so we
already know this is a problem.
You know.
(46:58):
Not that I'm judging, but, likeyou know, second attorneys in
already kind of know thatthere's there's some reason that
the first one didn't work outwhether it was fees or or you
know the person just beingunhappy with them.
So they're really focusing onthe core at that point, not that
one layer deeper.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Right, but I would also say that a lot of attorneys
can look and go yeah, I knowwhy it didn't work, Because it's
a Again.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I think that, just remember.
I just want to highlight onemore thing I mean about your
site and your this podcast.
I mean I could not agree withyour perspective more.
I think you're.
I think you're really doing areally great deed for society
and in reaching people in theway that you're reaching.
I commend you for that.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Thank you, scott.
I appreciate that and you knowthere is such, and for our
listeners on this podcast,there's a moment in here and
actually there's moments alongthe timeline when you're
litigating in this that to lookat where you're emotionally
(48:05):
stuck in the process and notlooking at the practical pieces
that need to come to get throughthis, because life in motion,
in the mainstream of our lives,is where we want to be and this
(48:28):
whole thing about divorce andcustody battles is this, eddie,
that comes off of that river andgets you stuck in spinning
where you're not going down thatriver and really being engaged
in life the way that we want tobe, and our children as well.
So to be able to stop along theway and go.
Is there a place here where Ican get a mediator in to finish
(48:57):
this piece?
You know, for sometimesattorneys, this looks like we're
going to do a four way.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Great.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
You know we've got two people and their attorneys
sitting at a table.
That's a how my first divorcegot finished Two and a half
years later, 25 years ago, yeah,and nothing's really changed in
the process.
And sometimes you're going tohave the other side that's stuck
(49:31):
.
They're going to stay stuck andyou're going to have to go
through the litigation process.
But I want you know, throughthis discussion that I'm having
with you, Scott, to have thatplace where the listeners, my
clients, can stop in a momentand go.
Is there an offer up here?
(49:51):
Yeah, we bring somebody in andtake another shot at this,
because sometimes it works.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, it takes 1 person to make that, that
initiate that thought, butthat's about 20% of my business
actually is people in litigationexiting and, like you said,
maybe it's just a piece or maybeit's the whole thing, but it's
absolutely possible.
I want everyone to know that youcan exit and you can reach
(50:20):
agreements after you start.
You know a contested processbut you know 1 person has to be
willing to come to that realityor that decision and then they
have to be willing to, you know,pitch it to the other side
because you know then they mightfeel like it's a sign of
weakness or something like that.
But you know to go down thatroad and in case the other side
(50:43):
is not interested but it can youcan absolutely do it and, like
I said earlier, I have hadclients that start with me, go
there and come back and it'sjust.
You know it's absolutelypossible and in fact I find that
people that are exitinglitigation are very motivated to
find solutions because they'veexperienced they've paid the
(51:03):
1012 $15,000 retainer and thensat there for eight months with
nothing happening.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Well, if they paid the 1015.
They've been in six months.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Now they've just exchanged tax returns and and
you know, chase bank statementsthat they might have already had
access to.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
you know, in a lot of cases, All right, scott, thanks
for coming in and have thisconversation.
I always like to from time totime get the perspective and the
notion of what mediation can doand kind of what it can't do
sometimes.
But to keep this in theconversation because alternative
(51:53):
dispute resolution in highconflict sometimes, yeah, and to
be open to having a discussionwith somebody other than a
litigating attorney that can atleast give you some perspective
of what that might look like andhow to get there.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Yeah, I agree.
Thank you for having me.
I hope that this was somethingI said that you know is is
helpful or educational, and Iappreciate you.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
Absolutely, scott.
This has been episode 277principles and strategies for
mediating high conflict, divorceand custody with attorney and
peacekeeper Scott Levine.
Scott, thank you again,everybody that's listening, as
always.
Go have some fun and get intolife and enjoy this spinning
(52:47):
blue planet.
Take care, everybody.
Thank you for tuning into thehigh conflict co parenting
podcasts.
We hope that you found ourinsights and guidance helpful in
navigating high conflict,divorce and custody battles.
If you're looking for help rightnow, you can sign up for our
nine week live online coursewhere I personally teach the
(53:08):
high conflict diversion programthat you can register for at our
website high conflictnet underour classes tab.
Or you can book a one on onepersonal coaching appointment
with me, and you can registerfor that at our website high
conflict net under the servicestab.
If you're looking for moresupport and practical advice, we
(53:30):
invite you to sign up for ouremail list at high conflict net
forward slash emails.
The files are designed to helpyou think outside of the box,
challenge your belief systemsand find creative solutions to
work while managing the blackhole of high conflict and
custody disputes.
You'll receive tips, strategies, success stories, common
(53:51):
mistakes to avoid and the toolsyou need to disengage from the
conflict and prioritize yourchild's best interests.
Every parent deserve thesupport and guidance they need
to navigate high conflict,divorce and custody battles, and
our email list is just one waythat we can provide that support
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So be sure to visit highconflict net forward slash
(54:14):
emails to sign up today andagain.
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We look forward to supportingyou on your journey.
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