June 29, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode Louis from SHV talks to Cam from inyourskin about misogyny and the Manosphere. They discuss why young men seek out these spaces and what we can do to support them, showing them examples of healthy masculinity.
Resources:
Research from the e61 institute - Gen Z Men Are Emerging as an Outlier on Gender Norms, MensLib subreddit, Bropill subreddit, Exredpill subreddit, IncelExit subreddit, Joey Swoll, Will Hitchins, Dr K aka The Healthy Gamer, blogs from inyourskin - Adolescence: A Wake-Up Call for Educators and Parents and What Young Men Are Telling Us (and Why We Should Listen).
You can find out more about Cam and In Your Skin @ www.inyourskin.co/
For more information about SHV @ shvic.org.au. Follow SHV on LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Contact us directly at doingit@shvic.org.au. Subscribe or follow the podcast wherever you listen so you don’t miss out.Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast was created on the lands of the
Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our respects to Elders
past and present. We knowledge the rich history of knowledge sharing and storytelling by First Nations people. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
This podcast contains discussions about adult topics. Use your judgement if there are little ears around.
Welcome to Doing it. This is a podcast made by Sexual Health Victoria. We run a whole lot of education programmes for communities and medical professionals across Victoria. We also run sexual health clinics in the city in Box Hill in Melbourne. My name is Luois, my pronouns are they/them and I'm part of the SHV Schools Community and Disability team. We run classes for all your levels on bodies.
(00:40):
Growing up, puberty, sex, reproduction and relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school age children and people working with young people. This is so we can share what goes on in a relationship and sexuality education class and help support the conversations you might be trying to have with young people, whether it's at home was real work. Today I'll be talking to Cam Fraser, senior sexuality educator at In Your Skin.
(01:05):
Camp served as the Jeopardy Chair of the Society of Australian Sexologist from 20/22/2024. He has clinical experience as a counsellor and has expertise in the areas of positive masculinity and healthy male sexuality. We wanted to talk to Cam about misogyny and the manosphere. We specifically wanted to highlight positive masculinity and how to support young men.
(01:25):
In finding healthy examples of community.
Well, thank you so much for joining us. I'm very excited about this chat. I did my study and I went away and I watched Adolescence whose whatever we're talking about. And something we've been talking about in our team a lot is misogyny and the manosphere in general. And this topic has been really highlighted by that show with more people talking about it. We wanted to bring it back.
(01:49):
To some of the basics. So if you could please explain to us what the manosphere is. So the manosphere is essentially this loose network of online communities and figureheads as well influencers that promote quote unquote traditional but oftentimes extreme ideas about masculinity.
(02:09):
Gender roles and male identity. One of the core features of it is the most of these communities are anti feminist in nature, while parts of the manosphere focus on things like self help and fittness. An motivation for men. You know, kind of like that advice.
(02:30):
There also wrapped up in worldviews that promotes misogyny, like I said, anti feminism, hostility towards women, marginalised folks. This is especially true in the context like dating an relationship. So some of these communities, although they might seem desperate, they are kind of like wrapped up under an umbrella that I'll talk about.
(02:50):
In a minute, but some communities you might have heard of, they all have the parlance you from these different communities. And so there's the pickup artists, you know the PUA's, there is the Murrays, which is your Mens rights activists, There are the MGTOW's, which is the men going their own way or the Mic Tau.
(03:10):
Group there are your in cells as well, which is involuntary celibates. Then you've also got your trad cons, which is your traditional conservatives. You've got your neo cons, which is your kind of knew age or knew conservatives as well. There's also a huge intersection with like geek and gamer.
(03:31):
Culture as well. So it's kind of like a proof of concept for how the manosphere can weaponize its rhetoric an mobilise its members to kind of commit online harm was Gamergate, which happened several almost almost a decade ago now I suppose and so.
(03:51):
That is also like really relevant because a lot of these online spaces intersect with online gaming essentially, which is kind of why I speak this a bit later on, why a lot of young.
Boys and teenage boys are kind of finding themselves in those spaces. And then one of the things I want to mention here, as well as they also over the last, I would say 10 years as well, obviously the manosphere, these communities have always existed in terms of groups of men getting together and sharing similar opinions about women and minorities and things like that.
(04:25):
And the way, quote unquote, things should be. But since the advent of the Internet, I suppose in the early 2000s, all these groups kind of got pushed online and were able to gather more members. And then I would say in the last 10 years, there's been a real politicisation of these groups in particular moving towards the right, right.
The kind of conservative, reactionary side of the political spectrum. And so a lot of these communities would be considered maybe lights or alt right in terms of their political affiliation. That's obviously a broad sweeping generalisation, but that's that tends to be the the consensus, I suppose among people that have looked into it and there's some interesting research.
(05:05):
Costello, for example, talks about the Intel community maybe being split a little bit more in terms of their political affiliations, but but there tends to be a kind of leaning towards the writer side of the political spectrum, that conservative reactionary side. So it's just this vast network of online communities that share similar beliefs about women, typically misogynistic.
(05:26):
Leaves and it really seems like these groups prey on people in a way who are just trying to seek community in connection and are looking to find something they're interested in, say for example gaming like you said, but also just wanted to learn more about the world around them, how to connect, how to maybe build relationships and those people vulnerable. And then it's leading to darker things in the end, which is a rule. Shame it's an easy way to.
(05:46):
Radicalise someone who's vulnerable. So when talking about this, people often use that red pill emoji. What is the red pill?
Yeah, so the the red pill is obviously for those that are aware of like where that metaphor comes from is from the Matrix. But in online spaces, it's being Co opted to describe supposedly a waking up to truths about the world in the same way that Neo in the Matrix wakes up to the truth about the Matrix. But the way that the metaphor has been.
(06:13):
Kind of corrupted by these manosphere spaces is these truths of the world that you know that it's things are biologically determined. So they believe in biological determinism, which is you know that your lot in life is determined by your genes and genetics and the way that you look according to the ideology is that the world is.
(06:33):
Gynocracy, the idea that the world revolves around women that that that feminism is gone too far and that men are now suffering because of how much progress women may have a very transactional view of relationships. That's another truth is that like all the relationships they talk about heterosexual relationships, of course and.
(06:53):
The idea is that the transaction is men give money, time, status to women in return for sex. Essentially that's the transactional nature that they view of relationships. Kind of bastardised ideas of IBO psycho evolutionary psychology.
(07:14):
I'm saying that, you know, it's all mating behaviour and it's very reduced down to the reason why men made in this way is because they produce sperm and there supposed to be promiscuous and women are there supposed to be anonymous things like that and it's very reductionistic. They because of that, then have this advocating for very strict traditional gender roles.
(07:34):
And they believe that gender equality disadvantages men. They have a kind of general and over arcing mistrust of women's intentions. You know, women are trying to trap men and they're just trying to use men. I've heard in these spaces that like the rhetoric that women aren't capable of love, right, Because they're driven by these biological.
(07:55):
Be political mechanisms that only making them seek the next highest value mate and to have more children and then part of this is like a signing.
What they'll call sexual marketplace value, two men, right? So you've got, this is where your language like your alpha male comes from, your beta male Sigma, all that kind of rhetoric around the ranking of men within this kind of hierarchy that they've decided exists is is one of the ways that they start to categorise.
(08:26):
Like masculinity, I suppose. And Ann, you're not doing masculinity right if you don't adhere to the things that make you an alpha male or if you're a beta male or you're a simp or you're a soy boy or whatever, then you lexicon is for describing something that isn't an alpha male then. And this is one of a police men's behaviour in boys behaviour, I suppose. But I can get into that.
Get bit later. So the red pill was just like an umbrella term that all these communities adhere to in terms of like a world viewer ideology. Even though it might seem like these different communities are a bit desperate at times where they have contradictions and internal conflicts, they all have this umbrella ideology that they fall under.
(09:07):
Yeah, right. Well, thank you. It's it's a complicated little well, but it sounds like a lot of it is in response to wanting to feel a sense of control as to make sense of the world. Because the world is big and complex and ever changing, especially with the GNU advanced technology and things like AI, it sounds like people are really wanting to make sense of it.
(09:28):
And you can kind of see why young men might turn to these spaces if they are looking for a sense of control and wanting to make sense of everything that's going on and also find that connection that we talked about. But why do you think young men specifically are turning to these bases?
Yeah. So this is a huge question. Is the question kind of on everyone's lips, right? Is like what? What is happening to teenage boys and why? Why is this kind of going on? And so a few things that come to mind with regards to that question are there's a sense of disenfranchisement and vulnerability and uncertainty and insecurity that a lot of teenage boys, yeah, lot of young men and also adult men.
(10:02):
As well find themselves in, you know, one of the things I like to point out is that there for a long time, there's been a stereotypical idea about masculinity, which is that you're supposed to be the provider, right? And provision looks like putting food on the table looks like being the breadwinner, like all that language that we have around the stereotypical idea of what masculinity is in our society is about.
(10:22):
And that is no longer really accessible for a lot of men, I mean, for a lot of people in general, right. But specifically for these these guys that are struggling, they know this economic precarity, I suppose, with regards to this idea that they have about what it means to be a man. Like this intrinsic idea of what it means to be a man is to provide economically. And that's.
(10:42):
Really no longer available. And so I think that's part of it is like this uncertainty, this insecurity, this disenfranchisement and that can get preyed upon by this ideology and the people in these communities.
With rhetoric of like, let's go back to the times when we were able to do that, right? The whole make something great again is powerful because it evokes that feeling of like, geez, **** is hard now and we're struggling now. And things were easier back then. And arguably they maybe weren't. But there is this sense of nostalgia that's preyed upon by these communities.
(11:17):
But one of the other things that like these communities in this this ideology provides is structure, right? Provides a lot of a lot of rigid, again, arguably too rigid structure for the people in this community's. And one of the things that I think is worth pointing out here is that there was research that came out from Eco Mundo, which is a masculinity studies and.
(11:39):
Gender Equality Research Institute in the states from last year, which looked at the.
Man box, which is typically described as unwritten set of rules that a lot of boys and men feel like they have to follow in order to quote unquote be a real man. And they found that the the young men who kind of self identified as being most in that box also self identified as having the most sense of purpose in their life and that those.
(12:06):
Young men who identified as being most outside of that box or so self identified as having the least sense of purpose. What that brings up for me is that there is a very clear set of rules that you have to follow if you adhere to this red pill ideology within the manosphere that you can clearly identify if you're being a quote unquote real man or not.
(12:26):
Right. It's like a very structured, very rich formula. Definitely, yes. Exactly. Like when there is uncertainty and insecurity and anxiety about what it means to be a man, it can be helpful to have some structure and some guidance and some advice and some mentorship around that. I don't think that's inherently a bad thing to have guidance and structure.
(12:47):
But obviously the way that is presented is like very misogynistic, very sexist, an not very helpful to to these men and the people in their lives. So that's one of the things I think is worthwhile people understanding is that these boys are looking for.
Aspirational role models there looking for people to kind of like guide them to to be a man, right? They want to know what that is, but that is also exploited by the grifters in these spaces, right these these.
(13:17):
Men, adolescent boys were in these spaces are also then sold things, not only their sold worldviews, this old courses. This is how you be a real man now. They've got their hooks into them and they've got them adhering to this kind of way of thinking about what it means to be a man. They can tell them you're not man enough by this thing, by the course. Listen to the podcast exactly, Yes, and it's really easy.
(13:38):
To get people to buy things when they feel insecure, right? And so it's, it's by design, right? This community is meant to play up on those feelings because you can continue to make money out of people when they feel inadequate.
Is that quote Life is pain? Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Do you watch that? And that's it. We're not trying to disapprove of that. Yearning for connection and that yearning to feel recognised and to feel like pain matters and is just as valid as anyone else is pain. And I think that's a really important thing that places at least.
(14:11):
Communities can offer young men and boys, but it's really challenging to hear that the way that they continue to foster community is by essentially convincing these people that the world is against them and that they have to band together an isolate themselves from the world because they're never going to succeed unless they do. They have to.
(14:31):
Fight and battle the world rather than working within it, which is. Or find a way to hack the world and turn society into this kind of game where they need to be the best player with the best HP. Which is real shame. And that's going to have a pretty lasting impact on people if they keep seeing women and marginalised communities and even their parents and family as the enemy.
(14:51):
What do you think is the impact of this manosphere not just on men, but also in women and other marginalised people? Yeah, I mean, we're seeing some of the impact, right, The the violence towards women, marginalised communities and also towards other men as well. I mentioned before about the policing of men's behaviour and the impact that it has on.
(15:12):
These men themselves is like a sense of disconnection from the people in their lives, but also a sense of disconnection from the other men in those communities. There's always a sense of 1 upmanship in a sense of like, I'm I'm better than you. There's not a lot of camaraderie to be totally honest with you in those spaces, even though that's what these men and boys are looking for is that solidarity community and.
(15:32):
Belonging they don't really get it and and then that you know the resentment is preyed upon and so we see a lot of denigration of.
Femininity right, in general and so that is directed towards you. Queer men, for example. I think it's one of the things that contributes to the violent straight towards queer men. That's obviously directed towards women, non binary trans folks as well, like anything that is.
(16:01):
Quite a quite deviating away from like this idea of what masculinity is is seen as lesser then and you can speak politically as well, right. Like there's there's a shift towards particularly in the Gen Z population or some research that came out from the 61 Institute, which is looking at like the shift towards.
(16:21):
Yeah, conservative political opinions in the Gen Z population for for young men as opposed to the shift towards more progressive quote unquote liberal opinions for women. It was, it was a binary, binary category. And so like the impact that has on our communities.
(16:42):
On our on our large scale societies as well, I think is important to recognise and.
I don't know how political I want to get on this particular podcast, but yeah, but like, that's going to hurt that affect you. If they're starting to vote in authoritarian kind of strong man figures which adhere to that idea of masculinity, Ryan and share those same worldviews were going to get situations like what's happening in America. It's amazing.
(17:08):
How much these ripple effects can have global impacts and you don't realise it sometimes until it may be too late. But I firmly believe it isn't too late and that masculinity can be a positive thing as well. We've talked lots already about how toxic masculine in the manners fear can.
Fester and grow into these toxic spaces that affect people in real life as well. But we know it's not always toxic. In aggressive masculinity, would you say there is a version of masculine E available to young people that might have positive attributes? Well, what do you think that we think that looks like? Yeah. I guess the first thing I want to say here is that, you know, I I think the term toxic masculinity.
(17:46):
Is useful, but it has definitely been being Co opted by bad faith actors to try and conflate toxicity with masculinity. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic. That's not what. That's not what adjectives do to words. You know, just add a basic English language.
(18:06):
So it's gotten like saying ice cream, right? I like chocolate ice cream, but I don't like vanilla ice cream. Same way, same way we describe masculinity is like I like healthy masculinity. I don't like toxic masculinity, right? It's not saying that masculinity is inherently toxic. So I just want to really get that out of the way because that has been rhetoric that's being pushed by specific people on.
(18:27):
Specific answer, the political spectrum, I would say to try and to try and really Co-op the way that we talk about masculinity. I don't think that's against by design anyway. I'll get off my soapbox with regards to that. The next thing I say to this is I also don't actually because of that, that I actually don't use the term toxic masculinity in my work anymore because having to unpack that.
Is a waste of time when I can just bypass it. But I'm not mentioning the term toxic masculinity at all. And then also I notice that if I do use the term toxic masculinity, typically young men go.
(18:58):
Here we go and they tune out so if I can get two birds with one stone just kind of get out of that situation and just start to talk directly to guys about healthy masculinity, I think that's a it's a much better strategy and so my.
And so my point around this is that, you know, the stereotypical ideas of masculinity is like to protect and provide, right? Like I'm sure we've all heard some, there's some other piece that people like to throw in there, like to preside over a family, things like that. Protecting can be a noble beneficial thing to to do. Same with providing, right? There's nothing.
(19:33):
Inherently wrong with protecting and providing for people. What I think is with while here is like how we reframe that. So if if a quote unquote toxic version of protecting and providing looks like this really paternalistic way of treating women like children and them not having any autonomy.
(19:53):
Agencies to make decisions from themselves because it's the head of the household is the man. And you know, these very stereotypically, quote unquote traditional ideas about gender roles wrapped up in what it means to protect. That's obviously probably not very healthy, right? It's not helpful, it's not healthy, it's not not great and not conducive for relationships. But what if we can reframe what it means to protect?
(20:14):
So every frame of this could be something along the lines of, OK, so how do I help create a sense of safety in the people that are around me, right? How do I help them feel safe?
And so that then reflects back on, OK, So what do I do in these situations? How can I contribute to the safety of the people that are in my life? Maybe it's my partner, maybe it's my kids, maybe it's my mates, right? How do I make sure that they are feeling safe when they are around me, right. And so that's, that's a re frame of protection provision or providing his or theirs.
(20:45):
The frame here, and I kind of spoke about economic providing before being the breadwinner. Again, not helpful especially in today's climate to think about providing in that sense. So can providing we cannot provide, support cannot provide, love cannot provide. Can I provide my children with the emotional intelligence skills that they need to be?
(21:08):
How to survive in the world and not become emotionless, you know, sociopathic people that are going to climb the corporate ladder and contribute to more evils in the world, right? Like, how do I, how do I provide that to my family, to the people in my life? How do I provide that sense of support to the other?
(21:29):
Men in my life yeah, as opposed to competing what how how do I build community and provide something to the men that I'm engaging with so I think like.
Leveraging these stereotypical ideas about masculinity an offering the reforms like saying that there's nothing wrong with those, right? I think, I think when we use it in toxic masculinity, because of the way it's been collected, a lot of guys think, oh, it's bad to be these things and isn't isn't bad to be those things.
(21:57):
However, we've got to look at it in a positive reframe. How can we do this in a way that is going to contribute to the overall well being of yourself and also the people that you're choosing to be?
Around and having your life so that's like my approaches let's let's talk about positive miscellaneous talk about healthy masculinity and let's leverage the existing ideas of masculinity in order to have that conversation because again that provides a bit of guidance provides a bit of structure provides knowledge Minton validation about how guys feel about their sense of manhood in their masculinity it doesn't kind of take the.
(22:29):
Deconstructionist approach, the social constructionist approach, just throwing everything out right 'cause again, that can be quite difficult for people to do, particularly in a classroom setting. So it offers a bit of a bit of something for guys to latch onto and move, move towards. It's like, how can we? It's OK to want what you want it to cater. 1A sense of identity's OK to want to.
(22:49):
Feel like you matter and you're contributing to a family unit or to a community group how can we make that happen in a way that's actually going to be healthy for you and for the people around you were not trying to say you need to throw out everything you've ever thought about your identity and start from scratch or everything you want is bad if you want to contribute and protect that's bad will try to find a way to make sure that it's.
(23:10):
Sustainable and healthy, like say I like the word healthy masculine. That's really cool rather than bad and good. It's like like junk food and vegetables. Somehow we're trying to say you could eat both these things, but one of the biggest aine for longer. I don't know if that's a good metaphor, but but I like that reframe. And she didn't hear how you're using it with young people.
(23:30):
And this podcast reached a lot of people who work with young people. So I want to ask you, what can people who are working on people do to help combat these messages that are coming from the manosphere? I think for a lot of teachers and youth workers, it can feel like this giant mountain that we're trying to come up against, and it can feel a bit overwhelming. But I'm sure there are little things that we can do, a little messages we can give young people.
(23:50):
To help them combat that that misogyny, the first thing that comes to my mind is rather than trying to get rid of all the content out there like that, it's just not going to work. So rather than saying the content is bad, don't engage with the content. You're a bad person for engaging with it. I share this anecdote. I was getting my haircut and there was a what I presume is like a 1516 year old boys.
(24:10):
It makes me in his school uniform and his mom was kind of hovering over his shoulder as he was getting his haircut and he was on his phone looking at TikTok. And there he was just scrolling through reels of Andrew tape and just listening to.
Real so of videos of his whatever posts online, the reaction that his mom had in that moment was something I want I want to point out, which is that why you listening to this guy? He's a loser. Like don't be a loser and listen to him like he's he's an idiot like he's a **** ***. Don't like you're such a **** *** or listening to him.
(24:43):
And like for watching his videos.
And I was just in that moment, I was like, that is really only going to push that boy further into those communities. One of the major reasons why is be cause one of the key messages that the men and the young boys get in those spaces is women are out to get you. Women don't want to listen to you. Women don't get it right so.
(25:06):
To then have his his mum say stuff like that is going to reinforce the messaging again, which is by design from the influences in those spaces. And so rather than rather than like trying to ban our way out of the content and trying to tell boys not to watch it again when it's telling a teenager not to do something ever worked.
(25:26):
The, the better strategy is, OK, how do we critically engage with this, how we develop digital literacy skills? How can we create media literacy skills in young people and older folks as well, but particularly young people? You know, what are some ways that we can you take one of those pieces of media and unpack it in real time with someone?
(25:47):
How do we how can we ask young boys about specifically what is resonating with you from this messaging? What about that is really landing for you? OK, tell me more about that. And then once you're there, once you kind of had that sincere curiosity, that sincere inquiry, then you can start to challenge. But OK, so how many the whole gold digger.
(26:08):
You know, women are only out to have sex with men because they're looking for status and wealth. Like, OK, how many women in your life do you know doing that? You have to tell me about tell me about the women like, like offer a challenge with his personal experiences in life.
One of the things I also find valuable is pointing out that these men, these influences don't have your best interests at heart as a man as well. Like they are trying to explore you, they are trying to drift that are trying to get money from you, and they're trying to keep you in that state of disillusionment and insecurity and feeling like you're inept or Oregon.
(26:47):
Adequate. And so being able to point out the profit motives for these influences and kind of describe how that's happening. Andrew Taters as an example, using the kind of pyramid scheme of getting other men to post on his behalf and create a bit of this business.
(27:08):
Out of the labour of young boys, like there's value, I think in being able to unpack the, like I said, the profit motives for these guys and the fact that they're trying to make money off of them and they don't have their best interest at heart. And then if you're, I can speak to guys in a kind of like blokey kind of way and we talk about what it's like to be a man if you're not and you can't.
(27:28):
Do that that's not available to share your personal experiences with how misogyny is impacted you. I think bringing it back to making it personal. You're speaking about the people in their lives, speaking about their speaker make your your life, but then also speaking about their mum and speak about their sister and speaking out there like really making it personal because a lot of these.
(27:48):
A lot of the content online really depersonalises and says this is how this is how society is and it doesn't really speak about and it doesn't give guys an opportunity to reflect on what's my relationship with the person that's in front of me right now. How is actually making me feel? Does actually feel good to treat this person that way actually sat enjoyable for me is enjoyable for them is actually contributing to.
(28:08):
The way that I want to be in a relationship and you know, and a reframe here around masculinity to help with this is can we frame alot of times masculinity is about how do you measure success, right? And so rather than being related to status and wealth and the amount of cars and things that you can purchase.
(28:29):
And how, how physically strong you are, can you reframe the measurement of success to be about what's the quality of your relationships? Like how, how many people do you impact on a day to day basis with positive messages? You know, how are you contributing to the goal that you have with regards to, you know, moving towards something positive? So.
(28:49):
You like again, taking something that's really ingrained and intrinsic to a lot of guys and a lot of teenage boys and helping reframe that if the physical strength as well, a lot of the motivational stuff that's in the manosphere. So fitness oriented. And again, there's nothing wrong with being fit or going to the gym, although you'll see that Co opted by these right wing people and they will try to tell you that.
(29:09):
Yeah, the left is trying to say that it is toxic to go to the gym and things like that. But yeah, really emphasising that you like it's yes, being fit. What does that allow you to do right? How does it, how does it, how does it make you feel right? Really bring it back to having those those introspective, reflective conversations with the boys and they can look differently 11 compared to inner group.
(29:30):
I don't need to get into the nuances of that too much right now, but I just want to emphasise bring it back to.
Personal lived experiences and getting them to think about how the people in their life are really responding to that. Yeah, totally. I was learning recently about this idea of resistance when it comes to talking about misogyny, things like that. And it sounds like what you're saying is that the worst thing we can do is come on the offensive to attack to see that.
(29:55):
Majesty content, things like Andrew Tate, I wondered how long it would take for him to come up in this conversation. And rather than attacking, says guys, loser, this is bad. It's embarrassing that you're accessing this content, but actually asking open ended questions, inquiring, finding out what it is interested them about this content, what they're connecting with, what is resonating.
(30:15):
And how that can actually in how to bring them back to reality, how to have that critical lens and think about how it's impacting their real life and the people around them 'cause it's very easy to get lost in the online world and we are all guilty of that. To go on one of those rabbit holes and to emerge hours later and realise that the Suns going down. And that's the same for connection and community.
(30:36):
So you can go down this rabbit hole and feel that parasocial relationship, feel like you're being seen, you feel like you found your place and actually realising that the world around you, there's someone cutting your hair, there's someone that has your best interests at heart and you have to be able to see that. And so I like that way of getting them to empathise by thinking about the impacts of the people around them. There is ripple effects that might have and also that kind of.
(30:56):
Reminds me of something I tell people, which is it's hard to discriminate against someone. It's hard to hate someone that you've had to have a cup of tea with. You all say it's always the case, but usually when you sat down and had a cup of tea with someone, you've looked at someone face to face, how to chat, learned about their life. It's pretty hard to find a way to continue to want to harm them, which I think is.
(31:17):
What's important about our relationships, sexuality, education sessions, 'cause they have an opportunity for us to have those cups of tea, but before we kind of come to the end of our chat, which has been amazing. Thank you. I think there's one thing I would ask, which is it's clear from this conversation that young people, young men specifically, want community empowerment. That's what they want from this. They want to feel seen, they want to feel heard.
(31:38):
And they want to feel like they also have some sense of purpose that you talked about. What do you think we can recommend these young people do instead? Do they need to get into a Tupper Ware pyramid scheme instead? Like what? What do we need to give them instead of the manosphere, do you think? Well, I know the Tupperwares pyramid scheme was tongue in cheek, but one of the things that.
(31:58):
To point out here is some discernment around where the person or the people that you're speaking to our on what we might call this kind of spectrum of allyship, right? So there are people that are of course and will talk about teenage boys. There are teenage boys that are of course vehemently opposed to gender equality, right? Like there is there those, those boys.
(32:18):
Just and they are actively in opposition to it, right? And there's also boys that might be on the other complete end of the spectrum, which are champions, advocates for it, right? And so, but those are two ends of the spectrum and there are a bunch of different stages and steps in between that. So as someone who is working.
(32:38):
With young people and offering them suggestions, it's really important to consider two things.
Where are they on that spectrum of allyship? Right. And then the second part to that is, OK, so what's the messaging that they need? And within that there's a who is the messenger for that messaging as well. But that's the first thing I want people to consider is like, OK, the person who the young boy who's like slightly towards the end of being in opposition.
(33:05):
To gender equality is probably going to need a different message then one of the boys who's closer towards the championing and advocating for it right Like there's different messages there and that's really important. So one of the things that I suggest is like jumping onto Reddit and having a look at some other communities that exist online for men in a very similar way the manosphere does, but they have.
(33:25):
Much more.
Let's say positive or you know, the conversation there are much more conducive to like healthier behaviour. One that I recommend everyone check out is called the Mens Lib subreddit, which is a reference to the Mens liberation movement from the 1980s, which was kind of like a parallel movement to feminist movement from 1970s and 80s. And that's.
(33:47):
That's quite good. They've got a lot of really interesting, thoughtful, nuanced conversations on there and they have some strict guidelines around not bringing anti feminist **** into the space and so would recommend checking that out. There's also the quote unquote bro pill subreddit which is a little bit more like advice oriented.
(34:07):
But it's still quite a positive, uplifting community. It doesn't like have that tinge of like you're inferior if you're not doing this or you're inadequate for not doing that. So there are some communities online that exists which do uplift and support the men in those spaces. If you're, if you've got someone who's a bit further down the rabbit hole, so to speak.
(34:28):
You've got X red pill, which is another community to check out. You also got in cell exit, which is another community that you can check out that I would be before recommending these to people. I'd be going, hey, take some time to have a look at this for yourself before you suggest it to a young person. But those are some interesting spaces that speak to.
To people that had been on those communities in a kind of recovering from being in those spaces. an A lot of advice for people that are finding that like their life is worse off for having been in those spaces.
(34:56):
You've got like influences as well, who are, you know, kind of counteracting that narrative around masculinity. I don't mind sharing some of these people out. Joey Swoll is an interesting one. He's just, he's a bodybuilder in the United States. He's huge, right? And that appeals to a lot of boys, right? They want to get that fitness gym in spray.
(35:17):
You know, type of stuff in their algorithm. And so he speaks to that, but he speaks about like positive gym culture and supporting people and you're an uplifting and being, you know, good spotter and things like that. So there's some interesting stuff there, which I would recommend at least getting it into the algorithmic feed of some of these boys to kind of counteracts some of the other rhetoric fits in there here.
(35:37):
Australia got Will Hitchens. I think he does quite a good job of speaking to some of the red peel manosphere rhetoric that's out there and kind of pulling apart the absurdity of it and emphasising a different way of exploring and expressing your masculine be healthy gamer. Doctor K is his name. He's a Southeast Asian American man who does a lot of stream live streaming.
(35:58):
Speaks about like the gaming industry and online gaming and the culture around that peels to a different group of boys. You got Joey Soul who's a bodybuilder in the gym 24/7 and then you've got Doctor K who's an online gamer and streamer. Again, who's the person you're talking to that probably not going to resonate with one or the other, you know or maybe they do, I don't know but.
(36:18):
But there's, you know, there's there are people out there that are creating positive community and and spouse in positive positive rhetoric around masculinity to get again. It's like just following that person might not change that boys behaviour overnight, but getting positive messages in their social media algorithms, making sure that it's.
(36:39):
In addition to some of the other stuff that they might be seeing in their feeds can be helpful for studying to get the wheels turning an the thoughts changing around world views and things like that. And then and then following up those conversations can be helpful. But yeah, pointing them in a positive direction with regards to the content of ageing online is a good start.
Awesome. Thank you for giving those really practical suggestions for what people can use and places that people can go. And to really helpful for us working with young people to be able to recommend them go places rather than just talking to a psychologist or talking to a coach that they can find communities that will make them feel as connected in maybe a more positive way. But this has been a really amazing chat. Thank you so much for your time.
(37:19):
Have you got anything else to add before we wrap up? Oh, I mean, there's always stuff to add, Louis, but I, I won't. I'll just say thank you. And I'm really grateful that you have invited me on to have this conversation.
Thank you so much to Cam for the chat. Here's some key things that stood out to me from this discussion.
Young men attending to these spaces because of uncertainty, insecurity and disenfranchisement. The manosphere ideology, while rigid, provides structure which is appealing.
(37:48):
We can reframe ideas that come under traditional ideas of masculinity such as protection and providing to be healthy. Ideas like how can I create safety for the people in my life and how can I provide support, love and care for the people in my life.
Approach these topics with sincere curiosity. An inquiry ask young men want messaging resonates with them and unpacked that with them. This builds on their digital and media literacy skills.
(38:18):
Their communities online that young men can look to for positive examples of masculinity. They can add to positive messaging on their algorithm. They can also speak to their experiences of leaving manosphere spaces.
Now Cam spoke about making personal connections for young people that can help them understand the impact of harmful ideas coming from these manosphere spaces. This is an important point for those working with young people that don't identify as men. We know that the majority of people working in the sexuality education space are not men, but are often in the position to talk to young men about these topics.
(38:52):
Anyone of any gender can engage young men in these topics and provide resource is to support them in finding community and positive masculinity role models.
Can mention some Reddit pages and influences that promote healthy ideas of masculinity and we have them and some other resource is in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.
This podcast was created on the lands of the
Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. We pay our respects to Elders
past and present. We knowledge the rich history of knowledge sharing and storytelling by First Nations people. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
This podcast contains discussions about adult topics. Use your judgement if there are little ears around.
Welcome to Doing it. This is a podcast made by Sexual Health Victoria. We run a whole lot of education programmes for communities and medical professionals across Victoria. We also run sexual health clinics in the city in Box Hill in Melbourne. My name is Luois, my pronouns are they/them and I'm part of the SHV Schools Community and Disability team. We run classes for all your levels on bodies.
(00:40):
Growing up, puberty, sex, reproduction and relationships.
This podcast is for parents and carers of school age children and people working with young people. This is so we can share what goes on in a relationship and sexuality education class and help support the conversations you might be trying to have with young people, whether it's at home was real work. Today I'll be talking to Cam Fraser, senior sexuality educator at In Your Skin.
(01:05):
Camp served as the Jeopardy Chair of the Society of Australian Sexologist from 20/22/2024. He has clinical experience as a counsellor and has expertise in the areas of positive masculinity and healthy male sexuality. We wanted to talk to Cam about misogyny and the manosphere. We specifically wanted to highlight positive masculinity and how to support young men.
(01:25):
In finding healthy examples of community.
Well, thank you so much for joining us. I'm very excited about this chat. I did my study and I went away and I watched Adolescence whose whatever we're talking about. And something we've been talking about in our team a lot is misogyny and the manosphere in general. And this topic has been really highlighted by that show with more people talking about it. We wanted to bring it back.
(01:49):
To some of the basics. So if you could please explain to us what the manosphere is. So the manosphere is essentially this loose network of online communities and figureheads as well influencers that promote quote unquote traditional but oftentimes extreme ideas about masculinity.
(02:09):
Gender roles and male identity. One of the core features of it is the most of these communities are anti feminist in nature, while parts of the manosphere focus on things like self help and fittness. An motivation for men. You know, kind of like that advice.
(02:30):
There also wrapped up in worldviews that promotes misogyny, like I said, anti feminism, hostility towards women, marginalised folks. This is especially true in the context like dating an relationship. So some of these communities, although they might seem desperate, they are kind of like wrapped up under an umbrella that I'll talk about.
(02:50):
In a minute, but some communities you might have heard of, they all have the parlance you from these different communities. And so there's the pickup artists, you know the PUA's, there is the Murrays, which is your Mens rights activists, There are the MGTOW's, which is the men going their own way or the Mic Tau.
(03:10):
Group there are your in cells as well, which is involuntary celibates. Then you've also got your trad cons, which is your traditional conservatives. You've got your neo cons, which is your kind of knew age or knew conservatives as well. There's also a huge intersection with like geek and gamer.
(03:31):
Culture as well. So it's kind of like a proof of concept for how the manosphere can weaponize its rhetoric an mobilise its members to kind of commit online harm was Gamergate, which happened several almost almost a decade ago now I suppose and so.
(03:51):
That is also like really relevant because a lot of these online spaces intersect with online gaming essentially, which is kind of why I speak this a bit later on, why a lot of young.
Boys and teenage boys are kind of finding themselves in those spaces. And then one of the things I want to mention here, as well as they also over the last, I would say 10 years as well, obviously the manosphere, these communities have always existed in terms of groups of men getting together and sharing similar opinions about women and minorities and things like that.
(04:25):
And the way, quote unquote, things should be. But since the advent of the Internet, I suppose in the early 2000s, all these groups kind of got pushed online and were able to gather more members. And then I would say in the last 10 years, there's been a real politicisation of these groups in particular moving towards the right, right.
The kind of conservative, reactionary side of the political spectrum. And so a lot of these communities would be considered maybe lights or alt right in terms of their political affiliation. That's obviously a broad sweeping generalisation, but that's that tends to be the the consensus, I suppose among people that have looked into it and there's some interesting research.
(05:05):
Costello, for example, talks about the Intel community maybe being split a little bit more in terms of their political affiliations, but but there tends to be a kind of leaning towards the writer side of the political spectrum, that conservative reactionary side. So it's just this vast network of online communities that share similar beliefs about women, typically misogynistic.
(05:26):
Leaves and it really seems like these groups prey on people in a way who are just trying to seek community in connection and are looking to find something they're interested in, say for example gaming like you said, but also just wanted to learn more about the world around them, how to connect, how to maybe build relationships and those people vulnerable. And then it's leading to darker things in the end, which is a rule. Shame it's an easy way to.
(05:46):
Radicalise someone who's vulnerable. So when talking about this, people often use that red pill emoji. What is the red pill?
Yeah, so the the red pill is obviously for those that are aware of like where that metaphor comes from is from the Matrix. But in online spaces, it's being Co opted to describe supposedly a waking up to truths about the world in the same way that Neo in the Matrix wakes up to the truth about the Matrix. But the way that the metaphor has been.
(06:13):
Kind of corrupted by these manosphere spaces is these truths of the world that you know that it's things are biologically determined. So they believe in biological determinism, which is you know that your lot in life is determined by your genes and genetics and the way that you look according to the ideology is that the world is.
(06:33):
Gynocracy, the idea that the world revolves around women that that that feminism is gone too far and that men are now suffering because of how much progress women may have a very transactional view of relationships. That's another truth is that like all the relationships they talk about heterosexual relationships, of course and.
(06:53):
The idea is that the transaction is men give money, time, status to women in return for sex. Essentially that's the transactional nature that they view of relationships. Kind of bastardised ideas of IBO psycho evolutionary psychology.
(07:14):
I'm saying that, you know, it's all mating behaviour and it's very reduced down to the reason why men made in this way is because they produce sperm and there supposed to be promiscuous and women are there supposed to be anonymous things like that and it's very reductionistic. They because of that, then have this advocating for very strict traditional gender roles.
(07:34):
And they believe that gender equality disadvantages men. They have a kind of general and over arcing mistrust of women's intentions. You know, women are trying to trap men and they're just trying to use men. I've heard in these spaces that like the rhetoric that women aren't capable of love, right, Because they're driven by these biological.
(07:55):
Be political mechanisms that only making them seek the next highest value mate and to have more children and then part of this is like a signing.
What they'll call sexual marketplace value, two men, right? So you've got, this is where your language like your alpha male comes from, your beta male Sigma, all that kind of rhetoric around the ranking of men within this kind of hierarchy that they've decided exists is is one of the ways that they start to categorise.
(08:26):
Like masculinity, I suppose. And Ann, you're not doing masculinity right if you don't adhere to the things that make you an alpha male or if you're a beta male or you're a simp or you're a soy boy or whatever, then you lexicon is for describing something that isn't an alpha male then. And this is one of a police men's behaviour in boys behaviour, I suppose. But I can get into that.
Get bit later. So the red pill was just like an umbrella term that all these communities adhere to in terms of like a world viewer ideology. Even though it might seem like these different communities are a bit desperate at times where they have contradictions and internal conflicts, they all have this umbrella ideology that they fall under.
(09:07):
Yeah, right. Well, thank you. It's it's a complicated little well, but it sounds like a lot of it is in response to wanting to feel a sense of control as to make sense of the world. Because the world is big and complex and ever changing, especially with the GNU advanced technology and things like AI, it sounds like people are really wanting to make sense of it.
(09:28):
And you can kind of see why young men might turn to these spaces if they are looking for a sense of control and wanting to make sense of everything that's going on and also find that connection that we talked about. But why do you think young men specifically are turning to these bases?
Yeah. So this is a huge question. Is the question kind of on everyone's lips, right? Is like what? What is happening to teenage boys and why? Why is this kind of going on? And so a few things that come to mind with regards to that question are there's a sense of disenfranchisement and vulnerability and uncertainty and insecurity that a lot of teenage boys, yeah, lot of young men and also adult men.
(10:02):
As well find themselves in, you know, one of the things I like to point out is that there for a long time, there's been a stereotypical idea about masculinity, which is that you're supposed to be the provider, right? And provision looks like putting food on the table looks like being the breadwinner, like all that language that we have around the stereotypical idea of what masculinity is in our society is about.
(10:22):
And that is no longer really accessible for a lot of men, I mean, for a lot of people in general, right. But specifically for these these guys that are struggling, they know this economic precarity, I suppose, with regards to this idea that they have about what it means to be a man. Like this intrinsic idea of what it means to be a man is to provide economically. And that's.
(10:42):
Really no longer available. And so I think that's part of it is like this uncertainty, this insecurity, this disenfranchisement and that can get preyed upon by this ideology and the people in these communities.
With rhetoric of like, let's go back to the times when we were able to do that, right? The whole make something great again is powerful because it evokes that feeling of like, geez, **** is hard now and we're struggling now. And things were easier back then. And arguably they maybe weren't. But there is this sense of nostalgia that's preyed upon by these communities.
(11:17):
But one of the other things that like these communities in this this ideology provides is structure, right? Provides a lot of a lot of rigid, again, arguably too rigid structure for the people in this community's. And one of the things that I think is worth pointing out here is that there was research that came out from Eco Mundo, which is a masculinity studies and.
(11:39):
Gender Equality Research Institute in the states from last year, which looked at the.
Man box, which is typically described as unwritten set of rules that a lot of boys and men feel like they have to follow in order to quote unquote be a real man. And they found that the the young men who kind of self identified as being most in that box also self identified as having the most sense of purpose in their life and that those.
(12:06):
Young men who identified as being most outside of that box or so self identified as having the least sense of purpose. What that brings up for me is that there is a very clear set of rules that you have to follow if you adhere to this red pill ideology within the manosphere that you can clearly identify if you're being a quote unquote real man or not.
(12:26):
Right. It's like a very structured, very rich formula. Definitely, yes. Exactly. Like when there is uncertainty and insecurity and anxiety about what it means to be a man, it can be helpful to have some structure and some guidance and some advice and some mentorship around that. I don't think that's inherently a bad thing to have guidance and structure.
(12:47):
But obviously the way that is presented is like very misogynistic, very sexist, an not very helpful to to these men and the people in their lives. So that's one of the things I think is worthwhile people understanding is that these boys are looking for.
Aspirational role models there looking for people to kind of like guide them to to be a man, right? They want to know what that is, but that is also exploited by the grifters in these spaces, right these these.
(13:17):
Men, adolescent boys were in these spaces are also then sold things, not only their sold worldviews, this old courses. This is how you be a real man now. They've got their hooks into them and they've got them adhering to this kind of way of thinking about what it means to be a man. They can tell them you're not man enough by this thing, by the course. Listen to the podcast exactly, Yes, and it's really easy.
(13:38):
To get people to buy things when they feel insecure, right? And so it's, it's by design, right? This community is meant to play up on those feelings because you can continue to make money out of people when they feel inadequate.
Is that quote Life is pain? Anyone that tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something. Do you watch that? And that's it. We're not trying to disapprove of that. Yearning for connection and that yearning to feel recognised and to feel like pain matters and is just as valid as anyone else is pain. And I think that's a really important thing that places at least.
(14:11):
Communities can offer young men and boys, but it's really challenging to hear that the way that they continue to foster community is by essentially convincing these people that the world is against them and that they have to band together an isolate themselves from the world because they're never going to succeed unless they do. They have to.
(14:31):
Fight and battle the world rather than working within it, which is. Or find a way to hack the world and turn society into this kind of game where they need to be the best player with the best HP. Which is real shame. And that's going to have a pretty lasting impact on people if they keep seeing women and marginalised communities and even their parents and family as the enemy.
(14:51):
What do you think is the impact of this manosphere not just on men, but also in women and other marginalised people? Yeah, I mean, we're seeing some of the impact, right, The the violence towards women, marginalised communities and also towards other men as well. I mentioned before about the policing of men's behaviour and the impact that it has on.
(15:12):
These men themselves is like a sense of disconnection from the people in their lives, but also a sense of disconnection from the other men in those communities. There's always a sense of 1 upmanship in a sense of like, I'm I'm better than you. There's not a lot of camaraderie to be totally honest with you in those spaces, even though that's what these men and boys are looking for is that solidarity community and.
(15:32):
Belonging they don't really get it and and then that you know the resentment is preyed upon and so we see a lot of denigration of.
Femininity right, in general and so that is directed towards you. Queer men, for example. I think it's one of the things that contributes to the violent straight towards queer men. That's obviously directed towards women, non binary trans folks as well, like anything that is.
(16:01):
Quite a quite deviating away from like this idea of what masculinity is is seen as lesser then and you can speak politically as well, right. Like there's there's a shift towards particularly in the Gen Z population or some research that came out from the 61 Institute, which is looking at like the shift towards.
(16:21):
Yeah, conservative political opinions in the Gen Z population for for young men as opposed to the shift towards more progressive quote unquote liberal opinions for women. It was, it was a binary, binary category. And so like the impact that has on our communities.
(16:42):
On our on our large scale societies as well, I think is important to recognise and.
I don't know how political I want to get on this particular podcast, but yeah, but like, that's going to hurt that affect you. If they're starting to vote in authoritarian kind of strong man figures which adhere to that idea of masculinity, Ryan and share those same worldviews were going to get situations like what's happening in America. It's amazing.
(17:08):
How much these ripple effects can have global impacts and you don't realise it sometimes until it may be too late. But I firmly believe it isn't too late and that masculinity can be a positive thing as well. We've talked lots already about how toxic masculine in the manners fear can.
Fester and grow into these toxic spaces that affect people in real life as well. But we know it's not always toxic. In aggressive masculinity, would you say there is a version of masculine E available to young people that might have positive attributes? Well, what do you think that we think that looks like? Yeah. I guess the first thing I want to say here is that, you know, I I think the term toxic masculinity.
(17:46):
Is useful, but it has definitely been being Co opted by bad faith actors to try and conflate toxicity with masculinity. Toxic masculinity doesn't mean that masculinity is toxic. That's not what. That's not what adjectives do to words. You know, just add a basic English language.
(18:06):
So it's gotten like saying ice cream, right? I like chocolate ice cream, but I don't like vanilla ice cream. Same way, same way we describe masculinity is like I like healthy masculinity. I don't like toxic masculinity, right? It's not saying that masculinity is inherently toxic. So I just want to really get that out of the way because that has been rhetoric that's being pushed by specific people on.
(18:27):
Specific answer, the political spectrum, I would say to try and to try and really Co-op the way that we talk about masculinity. I don't think that's against by design anyway. I'll get off my soapbox with regards to that. The next thing I say to this is I also don't actually because of that, that I actually don't use the term toxic masculinity in my work anymore because having to unpack that.
Is a waste of time when I can just bypass it. But I'm not mentioning the term toxic masculinity at all. And then also I notice that if I do use the term toxic masculinity, typically young men go.
(18:58):
Here we go and they tune out so if I can get two birds with one stone just kind of get out of that situation and just start to talk directly to guys about healthy masculinity, I think that's a it's a much better strategy and so my.
And so my point around this is that, you know, the stereotypical ideas of masculinity is like to protect and provide, right? Like I'm sure we've all heard some, there's some other piece that people like to throw in there, like to preside over a family, things like that. Protecting can be a noble beneficial thing to to do. Same with providing, right? There's nothing.
(19:33):
Inherently wrong with protecting and providing for people. What I think is with while here is like how we reframe that. So if if a quote unquote toxic version of protecting and providing looks like this really paternalistic way of treating women like children and them not having any autonomy.
(19:53):
Agencies to make decisions from themselves because it's the head of the household is the man. And you know, these very stereotypically, quote unquote traditional ideas about gender roles wrapped up in what it means to protect. That's obviously probably not very healthy, right? It's not helpful, it's not healthy, it's not not great and not conducive for relationships. But what if we can reframe what it means to protect?
(20:14):
So every frame of this could be something along the lines of, OK, so how do I help create a sense of safety in the people that are around me, right? How do I help them feel safe?
And so that then reflects back on, OK, So what do I do in these situations? How can I contribute to the safety of the people that are in my life? Maybe it's my partner, maybe it's my kids, maybe it's my mates, right? How do I make sure that they are feeling safe when they are around me, right. And so that's, that's a re frame of protection provision or providing his or theirs.
(20:45):
The frame here, and I kind of spoke about economic providing before being the breadwinner. Again, not helpful especially in today's climate to think about providing in that sense. So can providing we cannot provide, support cannot provide, love cannot provide. Can I provide my children with the emotional intelligence skills that they need to be?
(21:08):
How to survive in the world and not become emotionless, you know, sociopathic people that are going to climb the corporate ladder and contribute to more evils in the world, right? Like, how do I, how do I provide that to my family, to the people in my life? How do I provide that sense of support to the other?
(21:29):
Men in my life yeah, as opposed to competing what how how do I build community and provide something to the men that I'm engaging with so I think like.
Leveraging these stereotypical ideas about masculinity an offering the reforms like saying that there's nothing wrong with those, right? I think, I think when we use it in toxic masculinity, because of the way it's been collected, a lot of guys think, oh, it's bad to be these things and isn't isn't bad to be those things.
(21:57):
However, we've got to look at it in a positive reframe. How can we do this in a way that is going to contribute to the overall well being of yourself and also the people that you're choosing to be?
Around and having your life so that's like my approaches let's let's talk about positive miscellaneous talk about healthy masculinity and let's leverage the existing ideas of masculinity in order to have that conversation because again that provides a bit of guidance provides a bit of structure provides knowledge Minton validation about how guys feel about their sense of manhood in their masculinity it doesn't kind of take the.
(22:29):
Deconstructionist approach, the social constructionist approach, just throwing everything out right 'cause again, that can be quite difficult for people to do, particularly in a classroom setting. So it offers a bit of a bit of something for guys to latch onto and move, move towards. It's like, how can we? It's OK to want what you want it to cater. 1A sense of identity's OK to want to.
(22:49):
Feel like you matter and you're contributing to a family unit or to a community group how can we make that happen in a way that's actually going to be healthy for you and for the people around you were not trying to say you need to throw out everything you've ever thought about your identity and start from scratch or everything you want is bad if you want to contribute and protect that's bad will try to find a way to make sure that it's.
(23:10):
Sustainable and healthy, like say I like the word healthy masculine. That's really cool rather than bad and good. It's like like junk food and vegetables. Somehow we're trying to say you could eat both these things, but one of the biggest aine for longer. I don't know if that's a good metaphor, but but I like that reframe. And she didn't hear how you're using it with young people.
(23:30):
And this podcast reached a lot of people who work with young people. So I want to ask you, what can people who are working on people do to help combat these messages that are coming from the manosphere? I think for a lot of teachers and youth workers, it can feel like this giant mountain that we're trying to come up against, and it can feel a bit overwhelming. But I'm sure there are little things that we can do, a little messages we can give young people.
(23:50):
To help them combat that that misogyny, the first thing that comes to my mind is rather than trying to get rid of all the content out there like that, it's just not going to work. So rather than saying the content is bad, don't engage with the content. You're a bad person for engaging with it. I share this anecdote. I was getting my haircut and there was a what I presume is like a 1516 year old boys.
(24:10):
It makes me in his school uniform and his mom was kind of hovering over his shoulder as he was getting his haircut and he was on his phone looking at TikTok. And there he was just scrolling through reels of Andrew tape and just listening to.
Real so of videos of his whatever posts online, the reaction that his mom had in that moment was something I want I want to point out, which is that why you listening to this guy? He's a loser. Like don't be a loser and listen to him like he's he's an idiot like he's a **** ***. Don't like you're such a **** *** or listening to him.
(24:43):
And like for watching his videos.
And I was just in that moment, I was like, that is really only going to push that boy further into those communities. One of the major reasons why is be cause one of the key messages that the men and the young boys get in those spaces is women are out to get you. Women don't want to listen to you. Women don't get it right so.
(25:06):
To then have his his mum say stuff like that is going to reinforce the messaging again, which is by design from the influences in those spaces. And so rather than rather than like trying to ban our way out of the content and trying to tell boys not to watch it again when it's telling a teenager not to do something ever worked.
(25:26):
The, the better strategy is, OK, how do we critically engage with this, how we develop digital literacy skills? How can we create media literacy skills in young people and older folks as well, but particularly young people? You know, what are some ways that we can you take one of those pieces of media and unpack it in real time with someone?
(25:47):
How do we how can we ask young boys about specifically what is resonating with you from this messaging? What about that is really landing for you? OK, tell me more about that. And then once you're there, once you kind of had that sincere curiosity, that sincere inquiry, then you can start to challenge. But OK, so how many the whole gold digger.
(26:08):
You know, women are only out to have sex with men because they're looking for status and wealth. Like, OK, how many women in your life do you know doing that? You have to tell me about tell me about the women like, like offer a challenge with his personal experiences in life.
One of the things I also find valuable is pointing out that these men, these influences don't have your best interests at heart as a man as well. Like they are trying to explore you, they are trying to drift that are trying to get money from you, and they're trying to keep you in that state of disillusionment and insecurity and feeling like you're inept or Oregon.
(26:47):
Adequate. And so being able to point out the profit motives for these influences and kind of describe how that's happening. Andrew Taters as an example, using the kind of pyramid scheme of getting other men to post on his behalf and create a bit of this business.
(27:08):
Out of the labour of young boys, like there's value, I think in being able to unpack the, like I said, the profit motives for these guys and the fact that they're trying to make money off of them and they don't have their best interest at heart. And then if you're, I can speak to guys in a kind of like blokey kind of way and we talk about what it's like to be a man if you're not and you can't.
(27:28):
Do that that's not available to share your personal experiences with how misogyny is impacted you. I think bringing it back to making it personal. You're speaking about the people in their lives, speaking about their speaker make your your life, but then also speaking about their mum and speak about their sister and speaking out there like really making it personal because a lot of these.
(27:48):
A lot of the content online really depersonalises and says this is how this is how society is and it doesn't really speak about and it doesn't give guys an opportunity to reflect on what's my relationship with the person that's in front of me right now. How is actually making me feel? Does actually feel good to treat this person that way actually sat enjoyable for me is enjoyable for them is actually contributing to.
(28:08):
The way that I want to be in a relationship and you know, and a reframe here around masculinity to help with this is can we frame alot of times masculinity is about how do you measure success, right? And so rather than being related to status and wealth and the amount of cars and things that you can purchase.
(28:29):
And how, how physically strong you are, can you reframe the measurement of success to be about what's the quality of your relationships? Like how, how many people do you impact on a day to day basis with positive messages? You know, how are you contributing to the goal that you have with regards to, you know, moving towards something positive? So.
(28:49):
You like again, taking something that's really ingrained and intrinsic to a lot of guys and a lot of teenage boys and helping reframe that if the physical strength as well, a lot of the motivational stuff that's in the manosphere. So fitness oriented. And again, there's nothing wrong with being fit or going to the gym, although you'll see that Co opted by these right wing people and they will try to tell you that.
(29:09):
Yeah, the left is trying to say that it is toxic to go to the gym and things like that. But yeah, really emphasising that you like it's yes, being fit. What does that allow you to do right? How does it, how does it, how does it make you feel right? Really bring it back to having those those introspective, reflective conversations with the boys and they can look differently 11 compared to inner group.
(29:30):
I don't need to get into the nuances of that too much right now, but I just want to emphasise bring it back to.
Personal lived experiences and getting them to think about how the people in their life are really responding to that. Yeah, totally. I was learning recently about this idea of resistance when it comes to talking about misogyny, things like that. And it sounds like what you're saying is that the worst thing we can do is come on the offensive to attack to see that.
(29:55):
Majesty content, things like Andrew Tate, I wondered how long it would take for him to come up in this conversation. And rather than attacking, says guys, loser, this is bad. It's embarrassing that you're accessing this content, but actually asking open ended questions, inquiring, finding out what it is interested them about this content, what they're connecting with, what is resonating.
(30:15):
And how that can actually in how to bring them back to reality, how to have that critical lens and think about how it's impacting their real life and the people around them 'cause it's very easy to get lost in the online world and we are all guilty of that. To go on one of those rabbit holes and to emerge hours later and realise that the Suns going down. And that's the same for connection and community.
(30:36):
So you can go down this rabbit hole and feel that parasocial relationship, feel like you're being seen, you feel like you found your place and actually realising that the world around you, there's someone cutting your hair, there's someone that has your best interests at heart and you have to be able to see that. And so I like that way of getting them to empathise by thinking about the impacts of the people around them. There is ripple effects that might have and also that kind of.
(30:56):
Reminds me of something I tell people, which is it's hard to discriminate against someone. It's hard to hate someone that you've had to have a cup of tea with. You all say it's always the case, but usually when you sat down and had a cup of tea with someone, you've looked at someone face to face, how to chat, learned about their life. It's pretty hard to find a way to continue to want to harm them, which I think is.
(31:17):
What's important about our relationships, sexuality, education sessions, 'cause they have an opportunity for us to have those cups of tea, but before we kind of come to the end of our chat, which has been amazing. Thank you. I think there's one thing I would ask, which is it's clear from this conversation that young people, young men specifically, want community empowerment. That's what they want from this. They want to feel seen, they want to feel heard.
(31:38):
And they want to feel like they also have some sense of purpose that you talked about. What do you think we can recommend these young people do instead? Do they need to get into a Tupper Ware pyramid scheme instead? Like what? What do we need to give them instead of the manosphere, do you think? Well, I know the Tupperwares pyramid scheme was tongue in cheek, but one of the things that.
(31:58):
To point out here is some discernment around where the person or the people that you're speaking to our on what we might call this kind of spectrum of allyship, right? So there are people that are of course and will talk about teenage boys. There are teenage boys that are of course vehemently opposed to gender equality, right? Like there is there those, those boys.
(32:18):
Just and they are actively in opposition to it, right? And there's also boys that might be on the other complete end of the spectrum, which are champions, advocates for it, right? And so, but those are two ends of the spectrum and there are a bunch of different stages and steps in between that. So as someone who is working.
(32:38):
With young people and offering them suggestions, it's really important to consider two things.
Where are they on that spectrum of allyship? Right. And then the second part to that is, OK, so what's the messaging that they need? And within that there's a who is the messenger for that messaging as well. But that's the first thing I want people to consider is like, OK, the person who the young boy who's like slightly towards the end of being in opposition.
(33:05):
To gender equality is probably going to need a different message then one of the boys who's closer towards the championing and advocating for it right Like there's different messages there and that's really important. So one of the things that I suggest is like jumping onto Reddit and having a look at some other communities that exist online for men in a very similar way the manosphere does, but they have.
(33:25):
Much more.
Let's say positive or you know, the conversation there are much more conducive to like healthier behaviour. One that I recommend everyone check out is called the Mens Lib subreddit, which is a reference to the Mens liberation movement from the 1980s, which was kind of like a parallel movement to feminist movement from 1970s and 80s. And that's.
(33:47):
That's quite good. They've got a lot of really interesting, thoughtful, nuanced conversations on there and they have some strict guidelines around not bringing anti feminist **** into the space and so would recommend checking that out. There's also the quote unquote bro pill subreddit which is a little bit more like advice oriented.
(34:07):
But it's still quite a positive, uplifting community. It doesn't like have that tinge of like you're inferior if you're not doing this or you're inadequate for not doing that. So there are some communities online that exists which do uplift and support the men in those spaces. If you're, if you've got someone who's a bit further down the rabbit hole, so to speak.
(34:28):
You've got X red pill, which is another community to check out. You also got in cell exit, which is another community that you can check out that I would be before recommending these to people. I'd be going, hey, take some time to have a look at this for yourself before you suggest it to a young person. But those are some interesting spaces that speak to.
To people that had been on those communities in a kind of recovering from being in those spaces. an A lot of advice for people that are finding that like their life is worse off for having been in those spaces.
(34:56):
You've got like influences as well, who are, you know, kind of counteracting that narrative around masculinity. I don't mind sharing some of these people out. Joey Swoll is an interesting one. He's just, he's a bodybuilder in the United States. He's huge, right? And that appeals to a lot of boys, right? They want to get that fitness gym in spray.
(35:17):
You know, type of stuff in their algorithm. And so he speaks to that, but he speaks about like positive gym culture and supporting people and you're an uplifting and being, you know, good spotter and things like that. So there's some interesting stuff there, which I would recommend at least getting it into the algorithmic feed of some of these boys to kind of counteracts some of the other rhetoric fits in there here.
(35:37):
Australia got Will Hitchens. I think he does quite a good job of speaking to some of the red peel manosphere rhetoric that's out there and kind of pulling apart the absurdity of it and emphasising a different way of exploring and expressing your masculine be healthy gamer. Doctor K is his name. He's a Southeast Asian American man who does a lot of stream live streaming.
(35:58):
Speaks about like the gaming industry and online gaming and the culture around that peels to a different group of boys. You got Joey Soul who's a bodybuilder in the gym 24/7 and then you've got Doctor K who's an online gamer and streamer. Again, who's the person you're talking to that probably not going to resonate with one or the other, you know or maybe they do, I don't know but.
(36:18):
But there's, you know, there's there are people out there that are creating positive community and and spouse in positive positive rhetoric around masculinity to get again. It's like just following that person might not change that boys behaviour overnight, but getting positive messages in their social media algorithms, making sure that it's.
(36:39):
In addition to some of the other stuff that they might be seeing in their feeds can be helpful for studying to get the wheels turning an the thoughts changing around world views and things like that. And then and then following up those conversations can be helpful. But yeah, pointing them in a positive direction with regards to the content of ageing online is a good start.
Awesome. Thank you for giving those really practical suggestions for what people can use and places that people can go. And to really helpful for us working with young people to be able to recommend them go places rather than just talking to a psychologist or talking to a coach that they can find communities that will make them feel as connected in maybe a more positive way. But this has been a really amazing chat. Thank you so much for your time.
(37:19):
Have you got anything else to add before we wrap up? Oh, I mean, there's always stuff to add, Louis, but I, I won't. I'll just say thank you. And I'm really grateful that you have invited me on to have this conversation.
Thank you so much to Cam for the chat. Here's some key things that stood out to me from this discussion.
Young men attending to these spaces because of uncertainty, insecurity and disenfranchisement. The manosphere ideology, while rigid, provides structure which is appealing.
(37:48):
We can reframe ideas that come under traditional ideas of masculinity such as protection and providing to be healthy. Ideas like how can I create safety for the people in my life and how can I provide support, love and care for the people in my life.
Approach these topics with sincere curiosity. An inquiry ask young men want messaging resonates with them and unpacked that with them. This builds on their digital and media literacy skills.
(38:18):
Their communities online that young men can look to for positive examples of masculinity. They can add to positive messaging on their algorithm. They can also speak to their experiences of leaving manosphere spaces.
Now Cam spoke about making personal connections for young people that can help them understand the impact of harmful ideas coming from these manosphere spaces. This is an important point for those working with young people that don't identify as men. We know that the majority of people working in the sexuality education space are not men, but are often in the position to talk to young men about these topics.
(38:52):
Anyone of any gender can engage young men in these topics and provide resource is to support them in finding community and positive masculinity role models.
Can mention some Reddit pages and influences that promote healthy ideas of masculinity and we have them and some other resource is in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening.
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