Dollcast E2x01: Cenk Uygur Enjoys Testosterone

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brianna (00:07):
Welcome to Dollcast lDog\Cast with Kelly Carrigan.

Kelly (00:14):
I know you guys are going to tell me I'm crazy, but I
think all gay men would benefitfrom a gender transition.
Rihanna Wu.
Do you know who Rihanna Wu?

Cenk (00:22):
is.
It was people online.
I said she was Rihanna Wu.
I don't remember whoanna Wu is.
It was people on the line.
I said she was Brianna Wu, so Idon't remember who she is now.

Brianna (00:27):
Skylar Bogart.

Schyler (00:29):
More confused on girls or boys would be a better fit
for me, and when you're bisexualand you have the potential for
either, you've got to parse thatout a little bit.

Taf (00:37):
And Taj Tuff.

Schyler (00:51):
Having your story heard , having people empathize with
you on that kind of politicallevel I think it's really hard
to do.
It's the dollcast mostly normalwomen.
Hello there and welcome back todollcast.
It's season two and we'rekicking things off with a fresh
energy, natural vibes and alittle holiday spirit.
Okay, so Christmas is in justtwo days.
Spirit of the holidays.
This past week I had themagical experience of seeing the

(01:12):
Nutcracker for the first time.
It was a beautiful balletproduction that totally swept me
off my feet with the nostalgiaof growing up and I used to
watch, like Fantasia, theoriginal Fantasia movie, and I
just loved seeing the music cometo life in these beautiful
performances.
And so I wanted to ask you alldid you all see?

(01:32):
Have you all been to any likeshows, productions this holiday
season?

Brianna (01:38):
I maybe this is my own stuff, but I yeah, I was a show
choir kid so it gives me so manyflashbacks to go to theater and
think about like being closetedand dancing and doing all that
stuff that I just can't do it.
So I avoid this stuff oh, thatmakes sense.
Yeah, that's me though maybethat's me yeah, no, that's fair.

Schyler (02:00):
Everyone has their own relationship to it.
Uh, how about you all Taff orKelly?

Kelly (02:06):
I haven't seen anything.
I don't typically go to showsor anything like that, not even
like, not just during theholiday season, but like ever.
But I don't know what about you, taff?

Taf (02:16):
Yeah, no, I mean, I went to the Nutcracker a long time ago
and I saw my college'sproduction of it, but, um, I've
never, never been since.
I think it's something that'ssort of appealing like I
remember looking into plays thatwould be performed in the
Austin area because I was quiteeager to see, like you know,

(02:39):
just some of these classic worksof English storytelling.
Like Shakespeare, I'm alwaysjust like obsessed with
understanding culture at itsvery root, but it was
surprisingly hard to find aversion of Shakespeare that is
being presented like seriously,and with kind of like respect

(03:03):
and reverence for the formrather than, like you know, a
lot of it's kind of like respectand reverence for the norm
rather than, like you know, alot of it's kind of like oh, how
do we dumb this down for people, which is just like not exactly
what I was looking for.
So wait.

Brianna (03:13):
Are you suggesting that the, the, the movie with claire
danes, like the remake of romanand julia from the 90s, had
part run run free?
Are you suggesting that wasdumbed down for?

Taf (03:24):
me.
Uh.
No, I think it's probably avery high level, as as all of it
is, but I just um yeah, I don'tknow, I like.
I like when the performers andthe atmosphere feels like it
really values the sourcematerial rather than it's like
kind of making excuses for it,and so that just like bothered
me um a little bit and I endedup not going so I had a question

(03:48):
for you.

Brianna (03:49):
Taff, um, you know, you , um, you know you have some
potential high profile writingassignments coming up and I
cannot tell you how many timesI've been introducing you to
people in background.
They've been been like her nameis Taptaj.
What, what's going on here?
So, speaking of stage stuff, Ithink you should consider a

(04:12):
plume de guerre, a name that youcan use safely in your public
writing and presence.
That will stop weirdos fromcoming to your door.
So I actually came up with sometoday.

Taf (04:26):
Yeah, tell me, yeah, tell me.

Brianna (04:30):
I got them from the utterly ridiculous to the
somewhat serious.
But I was thinking, okay, I wasthinking Bond girl at first.
So it should be like I don'tknow Tiffany Goodhead or Tiffany
Goodnight yeah, very Bond.
So it should be like I don'tknow Tiffany.

Taf (04:46):
Goodhead Okay, yeah, very, very fun that's lower audit.

Brianna (04:51):
But then I was thinking like a romance novel, like a
romance novel that would be sogood for you, so something like
I don't know, like Tabitha andDemian or something like that.
Very good, or something, yes,but it's so drag queen at the
same time, so I don't know.
That's the best I could come upwith well, I like the ideas.

Taf (05:14):
There's this like great tradition in american political
writing of using, likepseudonyms, like you know,
publius, which is used by, likealexander hamilton and james
madison, um, you just like haveso many of these, I think, uh,
silence do good was benjaminfranklin's.
So I think there's likesomething to be said for the

(05:35):
tradition and the history behindpseudonyms, um, and I think
that like taftage or taft, islike one of them, yeah, but I I
also like the idea of, like youknow, adopting another one for
sure oh wait, that's not yourreal name, but yeah, what is
your real name.
I know shocking um, I go byapril to my friends.

(05:59):
That's so pretty oh my goodnessyeah that's a really good name.

Brianna (06:04):
That's a good one.

Taf (06:06):
Do you love it?
It didn't even really Spring'snice, I think.
I.
I was interested in the nameoriginally because I assumed
that it was a word that everyoneknows and so it'd be like easy
to communicate over like the dinof a coffee shop.
I told one friend about thisand he sort of like blabbed to
everyone else and then everyonejust started calling me april,

(06:28):
which I had like really likedecided on, and then like my
family found out also.
Like I didn't tell my family tolike use this name, but they
just like found out like throughmy friends and eventually now
like everyone calls me April andI I've made like very little
effort to make this happen, butit just sort of, um, everyone

(06:50):
around me was so nice that theyall sort of just assumed and
then switched to it.

Schyler (06:55):
I feel like that's not very well known.
Like if people were like, oh,do you know April, um trans girl
?
I'd be like no.
But if they were like do youknow Taff?
I'd be like yeah, totally like.
Do you know tap?
I'd be like, yeah, totally likeit's, it's.
Yeah, I had no idea.
You've done a great job at likereally putting forth tap it's a
really unique.

Taf (07:12):
Yeah, go ahead.
It's well.
Yeah, I don't know.
It's search engine optimizedbecause, yeah, no one else in
the history of ever has usedthat synonym how did all of you
pick your names?

Brianna (07:24):
if you don't mind me asking um, I was born with kelly
.

Kelly (07:30):
Yeah you, oh my gosh, a male irish name.

Brianna (07:34):
Oh you lucked out there , you didn't change your name
kelly?

Kelly (07:40):
no, because I mean, I don't know, I was just always
kelly and it already soundedfeminine, so I was like no.

Schyler (07:46):
No, I love that, because I also didn't change my
name.
Are you serious?
Yeah, dead serious.
My parents actually named meafter my great uncle, so, and
his name was Skylar, but his wasspelled with the U in it, and
mine doesn't have the U.
My parents were like, oh, it'stoo many letters, the U's
unnecessary, and so they droppedit and so I'm just Skylar with

(08:10):
just the Y.
Yeah, yeah, it worked.
I lucked out too, because Ididn't need to change it.

Kelly (08:18):
Now did you have to change your middle name at all,
because I just kept mine,because I was lazy.

Schyler (08:22):
I just kept mine because I was lazy.
I just kept mine.
I like no, I never use it.

Taf (08:27):
Same here, Like besides, it never shows up.
Is it good head?

Brianna (08:33):
Is that your little name?

Taf (08:36):
That would be crazy.
You have like some great unclenames Matt.

Brianna (08:44):
You know it's so embarrassing for me, but I had
one name I'd picked out and Iwas thinking about it and I was
in college at the time and I hadan English TA and her name was
Brianna and she wasn'tparticularly interesting or
pretty or you know, likewhatever.
But I was like and I startedthinking about it.
I'm like that's a really,really, really good name.
I like that because it's briefor short.

(09:06):
So this one just rando englishta I had, I completely stole her
name and went to the courthousethat day like this is a problem
because I make decisions likethat way too quickly.

Taf (09:18):
So I love that like yeah, I was afraid of stealing
someone's name, I know.

Kelly (09:25):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, cause you want to feellike your own name.

Taf (09:29):
Yeah, and I feel like there's like I don't know.
I just feel like it would beawkward if I like told someone
like oh, I have your name nowand so I like that was like a
huge barrier, like, oh God, Ican't choose that name.

Brianna (09:41):
I know a girl named that what are like the most
common trans girl names, becauseit seems like everybody thinks
like Lilith Kira.
Sophie, sophie but those aregood names too.

Schyler (10:00):
Yeah, good names.
Yeah, that's why they're chosen.
Yeah, it makes sense.

Brianna (10:05):
How did you get april?
How did you pick april?

Taf (10:11):
I just I sort of like month names, so I also like june, I
don't know august and whatnot,like autumn, um, and then I also
liked that it was like, like Isaid earlier, a word that people
know, yeah, yeah, yeah, andit's used also in other
languages, so it translates well, so it's kind of strategic in

(10:33):
that sense.
But I'm not born in April oranything, so it's not the most
optimized name.
But again, it just sort of fellon me Because I mentioned it
and kind of like played aroundwith it, but suddenly, as
everyone was calling me it, soit's so good, it's very pretty
yeah, it's a beautiful name.

Kelly (10:55):
Well, I was kind of, I was curious, do you?
I don't know if I just didn'thear you, but do you prefer to
be called tough by everyone ordo you like april?

Taf (11:02):
I think you can call me either.
Um, yeah, I don't have a strongpreference really oh, I like
the name.

Kelly (11:09):
I would love to call you april.
I mean, that's such a prettyname.
Yeah, yeah, I agree yeah, Idon't know.

Brianna (11:16):
I want to respect taft too, like it's such a good
internet name, like you.
Just say tough, everyone knowswho you're talking about exactly
.

Schyler (11:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is that the name you're goingto use for these writings?

Taf (11:30):
I would love to like preferably, but I will use like
a more proper name if theyinsist so yeah that's fair.

Brianna (11:37):
That's fair spoiler how do you feel about people
calling you for short?
Because I think one of thereally fun things about having a
girl name is like the shortversion of it that your friends
call you.
I just take so much delight inthat every single time someone
does it and calls me brie whichlike frustrates me my husband
will not call me brie.
He thinks it sounds like cheese.
I'm like why, if he knows?

Taf (12:01):
why no?

Schyler (12:04):
he just won't do it.

Brianna (12:05):
Okay, yeah, do you like being called Sky?
How do you feel about that?

Schyler (12:08):
Yeah, oh no, I have like no attachment.
I've had a lot of people ask me, like which do I prefer more?
And honestly I don't care atall, like it's whatever's more
natural, what's easier, and Imean, like I like the Sky, like
I have no problem with Sky, likethe sky, like I have no problem

(12:28):
with sky, like, but again, it'seasier, um, and the funny thing
is, like all my brothers, um,so all my siblings are brothers
and they're all their names endin er, so hunter, taylor and
walker, um, and so, like, myparents started this trend with
the, the urs, and so that's why,like, a lot of people will say
my full name, but people whodon't know my family will often
shorthand it to Scott.

Taf (12:46):
Yeah.

Schyler (12:48):
Yeah, but I'm not attached to either, doesn't
matter.

Taf (12:54):
Have you guys ever seen a trans woman who just has like an
awful name?
You're like, oh no, oh no,she's going to haunt you for
many times, adora.
Adora Like the character right.

Schyler (13:06):
Like.

Taf (13:07):
Dora the Explorer.

Schyler (13:07):
The.

Taf (13:08):
Netflix show.
No, I don't actually know, I'venever seen it.
It's like a Wonder Woman showor something like that.
Yeah, I also had to reallyresist the urge to go like
LARP-y with it.
Like some trans men will go fornames like Lilith Lilith is
kind of like a LARPy with it.
Some trans men will go fornames like Lilith Lilith is kind
of like a LARPy name.
It's not really a name, it'svery common, but especially

(13:32):
trying to avoid names that otherpeople have, I was really
reaching.
Another name that I consideredwas like Aurelia after Marcus
Aurelius.
Just like the Roman author,feminine version of that is
Aurelia.
Just like the Roman author,feminine version of that is
Aurelia.
It's like very pretty, it'sbeautiful, but no.

Brianna (13:48):
No, yeah, that's like an outing you name instantly.
Do you know what I mean?
Oh?

Taf (13:55):
I do think it's like it's so bold and as I get older I
like appreciate like boldness alittle bit more than I did.
But yeah, I was like I that wasanother big thing for me.
So I just didn't want to choosea name that was like meaningful
me, meaningful to me at thetime, that I would like hate in

(14:16):
the future because I'm like thatwas like such this specific
time in my life.

Schyler (14:21):
So yeah, it's got to be a name you can keep with you
through all your life stages andfeel good.

Brianna (14:26):
And one that doesn't set off like alarm bells.
Right, it should be under theradar as much as possible.
Hey, do you know what's notunder the radar?
Jk Rowling going after our show.

Kelly (14:38):
Yeah, yeah, that was a bad time.
I feel about that.

Brianna (14:43):
Well, I think we should tell people what happened, just
in case they didn't catch allthe twitter drama sky.
Do you want to kind of give asummary of them?

Schyler (14:51):
yeah, yeah.
So I mean, really it juststarted off, I feel like with
your tweet breathe, like you putthat out there and it was just
like an original post about ustalking about our hair and how
that's like a variation of women, and it was pretty benign,
although it was kind of playingonto the stereotype and of
course that was strategic, right, like it was intentionally that
way because we knew that itwould get a reaction and sure

(15:15):
enough.
But I didn't.
Okay, I'll admit I did notthink it was going to go as far
as it did, but jk rowlingreposts it a screenshot,
screenshot of it, and it saysnever forget gender identity
isn't about sex stereotypes, butplaying around with your hair
proves you're not a man.
Playing sarcasm on this whole,you know element on basically

(15:36):
just the stereotype definitionand saying like doesn't make you
a woman, right, and trying tobe super, you know pinpoint on
that, which is true.

Brianna (15:45):
I, I mean that's true to an extent, yeah, but it also
feels like you can't win.
You know, um, I mean like evenas we're speaking, a top turf is
going after like old picturesof me before ffs and going like
we know what a woman looks like.
So it's like, how am I supposedto Like if I take hair and

(16:05):
eyebrows and face shape andmakeup and all this stuff really
seriously?
I get criticized for havingconversations about that stuff
with you guys?
If I don't, then that alsomeans I'm not a woman.
So you know, I think what I wastrying to say isn't so much like
you yourself any person outthere needs to make these
choices to be a woman but ratherlike, if you listen to the show

(16:29):
, the way we interact with eachother is like it's just very
natural and I think, like wehave the kind of relationships a
lot of women have with eachother and I think that shines
through to the point.
I would like ask people to lookat this and say do you really
think any of us would be happyif you forced us to be men with
public policy?
This is just authentically whowe are and that's the point I

(16:54):
was trying to get across.

Taf (16:56):
Yeah, I think there's a reading of your tweet which is
not really that talking abouthair makes you a woman.
But talking about hair is justa very universal thing that lots
of people speak about and it'svery normal to do and is
indicative of the fact thattrans women, like anyone else,

(17:17):
have sort of mundane life thingsthat they deal with which are,
just like you know, there's acommonality between people and
it's not even like a woman thingnecessarily.
Lots of guys, especially, likeyou know, I've been watching
queer eye with my girlfriend and, like jonathan van ness is like
this, like gorgeous mane ofhair which obviously takes a lot

(17:39):
of time to take care of, yeah,very sweet person, and I think
that, like you could easily lookat you know, jonathan talking
about hair, and be like, oh,look at this, like you know, not
a weird sex pervert, just likea normal person who has these
sort of normal concerns, and sothat's how I interpreted your

(18:00):
tweet.
But I do think that, like I mean, obviously herfs are just you
can't win by appealing to thembecause, like you're saying,
like, if you try to mention like, oh, you know we have this
common humanity and caring aboutour hair or whatever, then it's
you're saying that like that'swhat makes you a woman and like

(18:21):
this is what you're basingidentity off of.
Like you know how shallow andridiculous and stereotypical of
you.
But then you know, if you don'tlook sufficiently feminine,
then they weaponize that againstyou as well, and they would
never weaponize that against,you know, a cis woman.
So it's just people play dirtyand are willing to say whatever
it is in order to you know,embarrass you or attack you.

Schyler (18:44):
Right, yeah, and I feel like it's it kind of comes down
to how, like, what womanhoodmeans to a trans woman.
And it's, like you know, becausewe are male, we're biologically
male, right, it's like there'sa societal recognition of
womanhood that often depends onthose stereotypes to a degree.
I mean, like you know, they'restereotypes for a reason and

(19:07):
it's because they're associatedwith females and you know, I
think, as trans women, we sortof, you know, are looking to
align ourselves with thosecultural markers to an extent
and for many of us it's naturalalready, like we were saying, we
were having that conversationabout hair and it was so easy
and I feel like that could justeasily mirror a cis woman's

(19:29):
conversation.
But we understand too, thatpart of our recognition as women
comes with those stereotypesand conformity, more or less,
and so it's like you know, it'sfun for us to accent that and to
show that and to just, you know, reveal that about ourselves
and talk about that, and it itmakes it and this is why I think
there was such a visceralreaction is that it tempts

(19:51):
people to more easily be like,oh yeah, they go in the woman
category and you know, they justcan't have that, they just
cannot have that.

Brianna (19:59):
That's like what it comes down to I think if the
four of us were having lunch inreal life, most people would
just walk past the table and notthink a thing.
Right, I genuinely believe thatand I just I don't know.
It really feels like you saidyou can't win.
Kelly, did you want to saysomething?

(20:19):
Because I was going to talkabout one of Rattling's tweets
in a second.

Kelly (20:22):
I mean, in a world where, like you know, gender and sex
are two different things, like Imean, gender is just completely
based on stereotypes and Idon't I feel like the trans
community has always kind ofadmitted that.
I mean I don't know why, likethey act like it's some gotcha,
like oh see, you're talkingabout doing your hair.
Like that just means you're notreally a woman.
It's like no, like everythingyou've been taught about being a

(21:02):
woman like outside.
Think someone as big as jkrowling would at least, like
who's been in the game for solong now you think she would
know how to not like fall into atrap like that.
And she just gave us crazypromotion for for you just doing
a really basic tweet.
So I just think it's prettycrazy in general that even
happened well, I I want torespectfully push back just a

(21:24):
little bit.

Brianna (21:25):
Something I've noticed, particularly for women in their
40s and after they havechildren, is, I think, for us,
because we can't have children,we don't menstruate and do
things like that.
I think it's easy for us toforget that.
You know, like there's abiological element to being a
woman and I think for live TERFswho are parents, they felt

(21:47):
their body change afterchildbirth.
You know they think about maybethe fears of getting pregnant
throughout their life, or youknow these fears that are
uniquely biological and I dothink that as women get older,
that biological element is moreimportant to them.
Where I think my objectionwould be it's not either or,

(22:12):
like I think all of us fullyadmit the biological aspect of
that is important.
I think most of us wishdesperately we could experience
that.
It's just like there is asocial, communicative effort to,
or part of being a woman.

Taf (22:28):
That is, um, it's hard to put your finger on, but you know
it when you see it yeah, yeah,but I think the problem, though,
is that, like a lot offeminists, a lot of old school
feminists like jk rowling theygrew up in an environment where
they're really trying to fightthose expectations, and so the

(22:50):
fight for so long has been toshow that women don't have to
engage in the behaviors you'retalking about, or care about
their hair, in order to be women, and so, by justifying one's
womanhood based on those factors, you are really, you know,
going against their sort ofpolitical project, and I think

(23:14):
that's a deep tension that we'rehitting on here.

Schyler (23:17):
Yeah, for sure.
I was just going to say like itall comes down to.
Do you think there's any kindof definition based on
stereotypes or no?
And that's where they're.
Like you just said taft, withthe history of, like the women's
rights movement and all of that, it's like very, this very
bio-essentialist, like women are, are born, not made um, I've

(23:38):
seen that, or like things likethat.
And it's like well, why can'tit be an expansive definition
like, can't it be like yes, youLike.
Can't it be like, yes, you'reborn female.
Like, okay, yeah, you're awoman.
That's, that's fair.
Like that no one is saying like, even if you act very masculine
, you're not a woman.
Like, no, that's not what we'resaying.
We're saying that there can bean overlapping definition here
that brings in those that dosort of get associated with the

(24:01):
stereotypes and are understoodthat way, particularly if
they've modified their secondarysex characteristics, which is
exactly what medical transitiondoes.
And so it's like can the twodefinitions co coexist or is
there, like we just said, like anatural tension that prevents
that?

Taf (24:20):
you know you're never gonna get.
I certainly I will.
I mean, I certainly am veryspicy.

Brianna (24:24):
Nope Ever.

Schyler (24:26):
Yeah.

Brianna (24:27):
What were?

Taf (24:28):
you going to say Taff?
Oh, I have very, I think, spicyopinions on this.
I mean, I wrote quite a longessay about how you know women
or trans women should maybe be alittle bit less concerned with,
you know, the label of womanitself, and in that essay I
discussed some of the problemswith identifying womanhood with

(24:54):
sex stereotypes and ultimately,like my conclusion in that essay
is that, like it really, youknow, definitions of womanhood
that aren't biological fail in alot of ways.
Um, either they end up beingsort of like exclusive sex,
stereotyped, um, or they're justlike totally vacuous, and I

(25:16):
think that that is a reallydifficult problem to get over,
and I think maybe my question islike why does it matter so much
if we are labeled as women?
Because I think that if you'reallowed, you have the rights as
a human to have ownership overyour body and to take the

(25:38):
hormones you want and to get thesurgeries you want and to
present the surgeries you wantand to present the way you want
and to be feminine.
All of that is what reallymatters to me, much more than
the specific label you give it,and so to me it seems like I'm
not super attached to the labelof woman necessarily.

Brianna (26:07):
And I've never quite understood the intense
attachment to it.
I think I mean.
Go ahead, kelly, please.

Kelly (26:10):
Well, no, I was just saying it's tough because, like,
I get what you're saying liketo a degree.
It's like, what does the labellike really matter at the end of
the day?
But it I just like you don'tlike get like the feeling of
like like it wouldn't bother youto call yourself like a man, I
guess is what you're saying Likeat the end of the day, if you
could like live your life thesame exact way, being called a
man wouldn't bother you, Cause Ifeel like it would really

(26:31):
bother me.
It wouldn't bother you.
Though, See, and that's whereit's kind of like tough, Cause I
guess I've like never reallythought about it.
I guess it just like validatesmy identity and the experience I
think I go through as a transwoman or just as someone living
with dysphoria in general.
So do you not feel that at all?

(26:53):
Like it?

Taf (26:53):
just there, there's no pushback here's what I think is
going on is that when wenavigate the world day to day,
we use these sex whethersomeone's masculine or feminine,
like a female or like a man tocategorize people, and so we
sort of put people in thesecategories of feminine, woman

(27:16):
right and we label people thatway.
And I think that when we callourselves a man or a woman, we
are communicating, on one level,something about the kind of
stereotypes that we're fittinginto, because that's practically
how we tend to use the terms,and I think that what I would

(27:37):
chafe against is being labeledas masculine.
I wouldn't want to be labeledas masculine because I prefer to
be seen as feminine.
So I think when some peoplecall you a man, it feels like
they're saying you're masculine.
Now I think what's interestingis that in this conversation
we're all quite comfortable withsaying that we are male right.

(27:58):
No one here is just like that,because we accept that males can
actually be very feminine andpresent in like a feminine kind
of in a very feminine way.
And so I think that if you usea definition of male that is
equated totally with man, then Ithink I would feel exactly
about the term man as I feelabout male right and I think

(28:21):
it's only because we sort of areactually using man and woman to
refer to feminine person ormasculine person maybe
erroneously that we have thisinternal resistance.
So to your question I think inthe world where we use man and
woman just to refer tobiological sex, it would not

(28:42):
bother me at all in the way thatI'm not really bothered by
being called male.
But in the world where we usethese words sort of ambiguously,
it might frustrate me a littleto be called a man because I
might feel like I'm being calledmasculine.

Kelly (29:00):
So would being called a feminine man not bother you then
in the real world?

Taf (29:05):
Yeah, no, I don't think so.

Brianna (29:08):
It would bother me.
It would bother me, yeah.

Schyler (29:11):
I empathize with Taff on this, because I feel like I'm
like a ping pong ball on thiswhole categorization thing,
Because it all comes back towhat Taff just said, which is
like do you think male or do youthink man equals masculine and
woman equals feminine, andbecause in the social
categorization of our brainsthat is sort of what's going on,

(29:31):
you know when reading thingsand reading people, yeah, but in
a literalist sense, like no,like it's not true.
I've seen some, like JonathanVan Ness, great example of ultra
feminine men that are just likesure, just beautiful souls and
lovely, and you know, I thinkthat's why, like, I guess, yeah,

(29:53):
feminine man wouldn't offend me.

Brianna (29:55):
I have to push back on this Like I do.
I'm sorry I got a little bitlike, okay, so this is this is
my opinion on this.
I don't know what she's saying.
This is my opinion on this.
I don't know what she's saying.
I'm a biological male, but youknow, at the same time, like I
transitioned and if people don'tknow me, if I'm going
throughout my life, I get calledshe, her, just naturally.

(30:15):
It is the way I look, it's theway people assume me to be.
That just happens and I love.
There's a short powder tacovideo where he like, if you have
to say you're the thing, you'renot the thing, and I think,
like, ultimately, the bestindicator that you are the thing
is the way people treat you asyou go through life.
I think there's a politicalproject by JK Rowling and her

(30:39):
friends to call us men, and Idon't think it's about biology,
I think it is to dehumanize usand I think it is tapped into
this deep British class systemthat they are still like
wrestling with today and it'sjust to put us in our place.
So, and the thing is, as I goabout my life, like, my

(31:02):
chromosomes are not the mostrelevant part of like my life
and you know, if you're asking,if you're putting me in a
situation where people areouting me constantly like
there's a certain cost that isassociated with that in terms of
discrimination or how I'mtreated.
It's why, like you know, it wasa lot easier for me before I

(31:26):
talked about being out publiclyright, my life was exponentially
better.
In fact, I would recommend mostpeople like transition go
stealth, don't talk about it.
That is the best course ofaction.
So I just I have no problemadmitting the biological reality
.
It's that their intention herethey're not my doctor Like the

(31:48):
intention is to dehumanize us.

Taf (31:51):
So why does it feel, do you think dehumanizing, to be
called a man?

Brianna (31:56):
Well, I think the gender dysphoria is.
You know I wanted to besomething and it hurt a lot to
not be that thing.
I understand I can't wave amagic wand and make myself
menstruate, but you know I canget as close to that as I can.
And you know, I think I'mlegally a female.

(32:16):
I've had, I've breasts, I havea vagina, I'm married to a man.
I think I'm as close as we canget with this technology today
and I think it's just aboutrespect.

Kelly (32:28):
Yeah.

Taf (32:28):
I agree, yeah Well, I mean, I guess there's one thing which
is maybe it's like inaccurateto call you a man on some level,
right, which I think what I'mhearing from you again and again
is that you're saying it'saccurate to call you male, right
, but inaccurate to call you aman, which means that there must
be some difference in how thesewords are being defined.

(32:49):
And I would just say that in theworld where we define these
things the same, I have noproblem with being called a man.
I think in the world where wedefine man based on stereotypes,
I think it's just inaccurate,right.
And so if we go with astereotype definition of man
which again I don it's justinaccurate, right.
And so if we go with like astereotype definition of man
which again I don't necessarilythink we should, I all for sort

(33:10):
of like deconstructing thesestereotypes and allowing people
to live how they want.
But if someone uses man withthe stereotypical definition of
mind, I would just say it'sinaccurate to me and I would
dislike it for that reason.
But I think that insofar asturfs are like serious about
equating these two things, itdoesn't bother me to be called a

(33:32):
man yeah, I think.

Brianna (33:35):
I mean, I don't know, I think the ball is giving them
too much credit, though likeyeah, yeah that.
But I also I think you don't getthis at the volume I do Taff,
like it is just the amount ofabuse I got from JK Rowling
after this was just astronomical, you know.
And again, their mission is notsome academic discussion of

(33:58):
biology, it is a vengeful,rage-filled mission to
dehumanize us.
And this takes me to I wantedto talk about JK Rowling's tweet
that she put out just a fewdays ago.
Y'all, like, please remember.
Jk Rowling originally startedlike her defenders love to quote
this, like she's nottransphobic.

(34:18):
She just says dress as youplease, dress, you know, however
you want.
Here's a tweet that she put outa few days ago and we'll put it
on screen here so people canread it as we edit this segment.
But in this she's changed thisa bit, she's updated it and
she's no longer saying dress asyou please.

(34:39):
She now says dress as youplease, in private and in public
.
We have the right to push backon this, because children
shouldn't see fetishes and youknow, some people want to be
serial killers and we don'taffirm that wish and that's why

(35:01):
we need to start pushing back onthe trans community.
This is flat out eliminationisttalk.
She's not making an argumentabout biology anymore.

Taf (35:11):
She's talking about pushing us out of public life, and that
is a truly extremist, transeliminationist point of view
yeah, yeah I think this is whereturfs really start losing
people, because it's just, youknow, the idea that you would

(35:31):
strictly regulate people'sgender presentation is something
that, like most people just seeon its face, is totally absurd.
Um, yeah, not, not somethingyou could even like practically
do, um, and if you did do it,you would end up reinforcing the
exact sex stereotypes rightrolling, really dislikes.

(35:54):
So it, yeah, it would betotally at some point.

Brianna (35:57):
This is just the same mirror.
Like I am against usingbirthing person because I think
it's dehumanizing to refer towomen as though they're just
walking uteruses.
That's deeply dehumanizing tome, and Rowling's argument is
really just basing women ontheir body parts, which just

(36:19):
seems so crude in my opinion.

Kelly (36:24):
Well, that's how the tariffs have always been.
It's always been.
What you were born with betweenyour legs is what you are and
there's no, there's no, anythingin between with them.
You know, yeah, the wholebirthing person thing it's.
I go back and forth on thetopic because I I understand
that, like most people in thecommunity that use that term are
not like putting it towards ciswomen, they're just using it

(36:46):
towards trans men that happen toget pregnant.
And while I understand thatperspective, it's just it's hard
for me to even understand atrans man like wanting to go
through a pregnancy in the firstplace.
Yeah, so yeah, it's just aweird topic to me all around,
because then every time I get tothat point, it's like any trans

(37:07):
man that's willing to carry apregnancy, it's like I'm sorry,
are they even really trans atthat point?

Brianna (37:12):
Yeah, Well, I don't know, Skye Like you're looking
at having a child with yourpartner, so that's got to be
weird for you.
That's got to bring up somestuff.

Schyler (37:22):
Yeah, it has me thinking about you know what's
my role like with when it comesto raising my kids.
Yeah, I don't have to gothrough like the whole
experience of what a femalewould have to go through being
pregnant and all of that,because that's way more involved
, like from a biologicalperspective.
But I guess, like you know, Ihave thought about like you know

(37:43):
, because technically my kidswill have two moms what that
would look like and what they'llcall me, how they'll
differentiate us, etc.
I'm not too worried about it,I'm just kind of like figure it
out on the go, but I mean,that's the only way to have kids

(38:10):
in this scenario anyway.
Um, so I'm just kind of like,well, biology does matter to an
extent.

Taf (38:12):
But part of being trans is transcending that too, by
different things.
So like that's fine, right,yeah, to some extent like if you
are just bothered, you know, bybeing called a man or being
called male and that's just likethe end of the story for you, I
think that's like also like alegitimate answer to just be
like well, I'm just like, youknow, I don't like it personally
.
Now, yeah, I think that likethat's totally fine to say and

(38:35):
you can have your own sort ofpersonal boundaries with people,
and I think that that's totallyrespectable to be like.
You know, if you're going to bemy friend, I want you to call
me a woman, right, and I want toagree on this shared use of
language, that when we use woman, we mean like someone.
That includes the kind ofperson that I am.

Brianna (38:55):
So I think that that's like okay at the end of the day,
I mean, if we are trying to allof us here, I think it's
important that, as we're talkingto our women friends, we
respect them, which is why wewould never say birthing person.
Or if someone tells me the cisbothers them, I don't get it.
I'll say biological womeninstead.
It's just respect and I thinkthat same respect is.

(39:18):
I don't consider, like Kelly,the thing you said a long time
ago.
You can't even remember being aman at this point.
I feel the same way.
It's like a dream, it's like aversion of myself.
That's so long ago I can't evenremember it.
I know Cenk is about to gethere, so I wanted to talk about
this part of it before he does.
How did we feel about the waythe trans community responded to

(39:41):
this?
Because I really thought therewas a lot of bad faith there.
You know, when Rowling attackedme, I wrote something that you
can tell me if I'm wrong, but Ithought it was very cordial and
open and measured, sending backto her, trying to open up the
door and have a conversation,and I got probably five or 600

(40:03):
tweets saying welcome to theleopards eating your face.
Party, brianna.
You know like, haha, look atthis happening and it's like, do
you not?
Does the trans community notunderstand?
Like there's a story out thereabout trans women, just like,
what do you expect me to do?
Scream, call her names, say,send the same death threats?

(40:27):
The trans community has beendoing like we started the show
for dialogue and beingreasonable and I don't know why
people are so stunned.
That was my reaction back likeam I just losing my, my mind
here?

Kelly (40:42):
no, people have a weird reaction to centralism when
extremism is leading like bothsides.

Schyler (40:48):
So yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all I think
there's this viewpoint that anydegree of compromise or dialogue
means you're forfeiting yourposition, or like you're
forfeiting your own, um, likethe direction that we all want
this, like this identity groupwants things to go, and the fact

(41:09):
is, is that that's one, nottrue?
And two, it's like how are youever supposed to get people
Because the world is notcomprised of just your identity
group how are you supposed toget people in other groups to
understand and buy into themission that you have for your
group?
And it's like through dialogue,through open conversation and

(41:29):
through understanding eachother's viewpoints and building
bridges.
And this is why, like, look forall the things they'll say
about oh, you're just being apick me and the leopards eating
your faces.
Comments Like I just, I have somuch I could say, but it would
just be like, look, your tacticshave not been working.
They have not been working.

(41:49):
They're going.
Like trans rights is down,Everything is down.
Like, when it comes to LGBTrights, we're down, bad, yes,
Like why do you think we're outhere on a platform now?
And I mean, I was livingcomfortably, just like you, Bree
, in the closet.
I was living comfortably, justlike you, Brie, in the closet
not in the closet but, like youknow, stealth, not making a big

(42:09):
deal, talking about trans stuff.
And then you know having tokind of sacrifice that big time
for the sake of just showingwhat real trans integration and
visibility should look like andit's you know, it's sad that it
can't be received better, but Ithink it's also a bell curve and
I think we're going.
I think it gets worse right nowbut as things improve,

(42:31):
hopefully that perception willwill improve too.
Yeah.

Taf (42:36):
Yeah, it's really tragic.
I mean it hurts more, I think,when progressives and like trans
positive people are sort oflike down on you, cause, like
you know, if a gender criticalor a ter are sort of like down
on you because, like you know,if a gender critical or a terfy
person is like hating on me,it's very easy to just like
brush it off and be likewhatever.
I think it hurts a lot whenpeople who you perceive as being

(42:57):
like on your side and reallyadvocating for are, like, um,
engaging in what I think are,quite frankly, like destructive
ways and you know they'rekilling any attempts at sort of
mutual understanding or bridgebuilding.
I think that's reallyfrustrating.
I've had this experiencetelling people over and over

(43:18):
over the past years like listen,the way that we're talking
about adolescent transition islike not working and we need to,
you know, change how we do thisand get real honest about what
the data says.
And I've, you know, just beenshouted out of like every room
because of that and now, now,like every, you know, all these

(43:40):
European countries and evenAmerica are like reconsidering
adolescent transition and it'slike I feel like I've been
trying so hard to like tellpeople that this is coming and
people have just ignored meevery time and doubled down on
this language, which is nothelping the problem.
So, yeah, I think it's reallysad and frustrating.

(44:01):
Oh, you know, I think I thinkwe're going to win.
Really sad and frustrating.
You know what I think we'regoing to win.
Listen, I think, with the JKRowling thing, if thousands of
TERFs are mad, gender-criticalpeople are in your mentions,
harassing you and whatnot, Ithink if there's a hundred
people who actually check outDollcast and listen, they're

(44:25):
like oh, actually, yeah, youknow what her opinions are like
pretty reasonable.
And you know, someone bringsyou on a show like piers morgan
or whatever it is, and they'relike you know what?
What's all the big deal like?
Why are you being attacked byjk rowling?
And then you see, like insimple terms, like, listen, I'm
just like anyone else.
You know, I care about thingslike hair.

(44:45):
Um, I care about my rights, youcare about those things, and
that's what matters to me.
That's a message that resonateswith people and I think that
you know, a little bit ofinternet drama is.
You know, it's just, we'regoing to win in the end.
It's going to help I.

Brianna (45:01):
I agree we're going to win.
I do want to ask you not tounderestimate, like, the amount
of personal toll some of thisstuff takes on me.
Like I've been around theinternet for a while and I'm
used to death threats and rapethreats.
Like, if you guys look at thetext message chain the night
after this happened, you'regetting text messages at four in

(45:22):
the morning that are hey, Istood up all stayed up all night
working on a, v, c and d, andit's because I could not sleep,
because, like my every piece ofsocial media I had was on fire.
Nut jobs are emailing me.
I'm having to take down commentson our youtube channel because
it is just so over the line andlike, to a certain extent, I

(45:45):
signed up for this.
I'm a public figure, Iunderstand that, but it's just
it really like there are realtimes now that I swear to God.
Before I started on thispolitical project, just going
through my day, I just thoughtof myself as a woman.
I just literally did not thinkof it, and you can only have
someone call you a man so manyhundreds of times a day and not

(46:09):
have it like affect you on somelevel and you know, like, like
it's.
I wish that asking for my owndignity did not come at such a
high cost, if that makes senseto you.

Taf (46:23):
No, I mean, it's a horrifically high cost.
It's maybe one of those brutalthings that someone can go
through sort of actually goingto war but just you feel
constantly attacked, you're in aconstant state of danger and
panic.
That's why you end up stayingup till 4 am, because your body

(46:45):
is like pumping with adrenaline,because in a very real sense,
you recognize that like you knowwhat people think is life or
death, and you know, I thinkthat is so hard.
I think that hopefully it helpsto just like know that all of

(47:05):
the hate online is kind of likean illusion and there's like a
real.
There's real people, peoplelike chink, who, yeah, you know
who care and are willing tolisten to you, and the people
who are sort of they're insaneonline.
Those people are like the leastmeaningful group of people to

(47:25):
care about their opinions, andso I think it's, you know, it's
nice to just know that, likewhen it comes to people who
actually matter, those peoplethink through things and are not
so crazy.

Schyler (47:41):
I couldn't agree more.
Like I just think about, like,who we're hoping to bring on to
all cast this next year, like,for you've been, like you know,
back channeling and doing allthe things you do best and,
honestly, like I feel like thisis, this is the cost of being
visible, is that you're gonnaattract haters, and I I always
come back to that.
If you're attracting them,that's because you stand for

(48:03):
something.
And if you stand for something,it means that they think you're
a threat.
They think you're a threat tosomething I don't know what, but
um, I guess just to makingtrans people acceptable in
society again.

Brianna (48:16):
So well, I think the TERFs are so focused on me in
our political project becausewe're effective.
Right, jk Rowling got a ton ofpower by basically just
broadcasting, frankly, the deaththreats that trans people have
been sending her.
It's abhorrent, it doesn't work.

(48:36):
It made us look unhinged andyou know Vosh is my friend, but
when he's posting stuff likeshut up and make me a sandwich,
it just makes the pro-trans sidelooks insane.
But on the other hand, nowshe's doing this to the
Kemergate chick, like, come on,I will sit there and let y'all
say the worst stuff to me andpeople can just read it online

(48:59):
and they have.
And you know we got so manymessages this week talking about

(49:19):
how horrible what the backlashwas and I think they're like
everyone on the show denouncesthat.
But there's a mirror project ontheir side to deny us our
humanity, to humiliate us and toultimately push us out of
public life.
Maya Forrester this week waspushing back on the idea of

(49:40):
adults, adults having genderchange surgery like downstairs,
like pushing back on it andintimating that we needed to
outlaw it.
This is a crazy fringe missionand I think, if we are
reasonable in the middle, I dothink it really exposes just

(50:01):
what the ultimate goal of thismission is.

Taf (50:04):
Yeah, I totally agree.
We got to hold on to that, likethose fundamental values,
because there's lots of transpeople that are like going to
attack us and, of course,there's going to be, like gender
critical people who attack us.
But my values are solid, like Ibelieve in people's agency over

(50:31):
their own bodies, fundamentally, and it doesn't matter.
Like if every single person inthe world were to tell me like
I'm wrong on that and that, likethey hate that, I believe that
it doesn't matter.
Like I believe that it doesn'tmatter, like I believe that
anyways.
And so, like, fuck all thosepeople.
Like, yeah, I'm just going tokeep on my principles you know

(50:54):
we had an interview with Cenk aswell, just like you know he
does Because that is what Ithink shines through.
Everything else, more thananything, is keeping to what you
believe in, really trulybelieving it, and not giving
ground to anyone, just, you know, for the sake of being liked or
whatever.

Brianna (51:13):
Okay, love for the trans community.
Taff, you said that on our veryfirst show.
You said it on our third showThen, like the Indie of
Willoughby segment, I re-lookedat that this week after jk
rowling attacked us and you gavea really lovely monologue about
how you didn't want to be apick me and you wanted to start
this show to love the transcommunity.

(51:34):
I think that's why it hurts somuch when they attack us,
because I feel, from my point ofview, I'm out here tanking for
the team and doing some stuffthat's really unpleasant, and
I'm doing it because I genuinelyam worried that people that
need healthcare I don't evenneed anymore are not going to

(51:54):
have access to it, and I just Idon't know like.
I understand criticism is partof the job, but it just hurts.
How many people like assumepoor intent here?
Do you know what I mean?

Taf (52:07):
absolutely.
Um, one of my favorite likearchetypes in fiction is the
character who is like noble andthey're like hated for it.
That resonates with me so much.
You know these people who arejust doing the best they can do
and they're punished, or someonelike Ned Stark or like Davenar

(52:28):
Cullen in fantasy, thesecharacters, they really work for
me because they're shoulderingthis burden and I feel like that
is the height of nobility,because it's easy to be
pro-trans when you're not beingattacked for it and it's easy to
be moderate on trans thingswhen you're not being attacked
for it.
There's no virtue in playing towhat people want you to say,

(52:51):
the virtue of standing by yourprinciples, true courage.
It only occurs when you canstand against the hate.
So I think what I see in you isvirtue and courage and it's so
much bigger than anyone who isplaying.
Pick me.
Even if you get accused of that, it couldn't be more far from

(53:13):
the truth.
So I think it's admirable whatyou're doing and I think other
people are going to see thatmore and more.

Brianna (53:21):
Y'all being on the show with me.
We're all doing this together.
It's why it makes it so muchharder to attack any of us,
because it's not just me, it'sall four of us pushing for
something.
And you know jank sees thevalue.
You heard what he says.
He believes in her mission andI think a lot of other people
are going to see that toothere's so many people that just

(53:41):
aren't online that otherwiseagree and need the voice that
you're bringing.

Schyler (53:47):
And this is where, like I mean, I kind of see myself in
this space.
Even though I'm here on theshow and I love this show and
I'm with it, with you all, I'mnot super online and I like to
think that I am sort of arepresentation of so many like
non-online people that otherwisewould be drawn in and totally
on board with the mission ofwhat we're here to say, which is

(54:10):
just a third way formarginalized, a really
marginalized group of peoplethat have sort of had their
voice stolen from them quite abit in the last like five to 10
years and need to see, like,what is the proper vision for
trans rights in modern society.
And I'd like to think thatwe're at least much closer to

(54:32):
that than some of the voicesthat have been sort of
dominating the online space.

Brianna (54:38):
God knows, I agree.

Kelly (54:41):
We can gain some of the TERFs opinions too too.
I mean, I know that doesn'tseem possible half the time, but
there's some consistentwatching, you know, because
they're watching us clearly bythe replies.
Hopefully we can at leastchange a few of their opinions
as well.

Brianna (54:57):
We've had those comments, Kelly.
I've had TERFs write into theshow and tell me you know, I
don't think you're the threat,it's this wider mission I have a
problem with.
So I think they'reacknowledging that.
So maybe it'll be helpful.

Schyler (55:12):
Yes, yes, yes, all right, okay, so today we're
thrilled to have a truepowerhouse in progressive media
joining us today.
He's the founder of the YoungTurks, a trailblazer in digital
political commentary and,honestly, one of the most
outspoken voices for change inAmerica.
He's a champion for progressivecauses and a voice that refuses

(55:35):
to back down in the fight forjustice and equality.
Please welcome the one and onlyCenk Uygur.
Please welcome the one and onlyCenk Uygur.

Brianna (55:47):
Woo Cenk, I wanted to ask you when did you become an
ultra-Zionist?
Congratulations.
So, first of all.

Cenk (55:57):
thank you everybody.
Yes, thank you everybody.
Wonderful to see you all.
And to Brianna's joke, I'mapparently both an ultra Zionist
then and then he sent my doctor.

Brianna (56:11):
It's true, it's true, you're also MAGA, as I
understand it.
So what I wanted to say to you,cenk, is I've probably gotten
100 emails going.
How can you be friends withCenk?
And I know you've gotten thesame about me, and this is
literally what Dollcast is about.
Like you and I do not agree onIsrael, we don't agree on other

(56:32):
things in progressivism, it hasnever affected our friendship,
and we don't have to share thesame opinions to do good work
together, and we have, andthat's a lot of the mission of
our show.
So I just wanted to thank youfor showing up today.
It really means a lot.

Cenk (56:48):
Yeah, no problem.
And look, that's what we haveto go back to.
And right now I'm in the middleof a maelstrom of criticism for
even just not for changing anyof my positions, but just
talking to the right wing.
And we've gotten to a placewhere people think that if you
talk to the right wing, thatthat's immoral or fascist or

(57:11):
racist or something along thoselines.
And we can't, this country can'tsurvive if we're not willing to
talk to one another, and wewon't be able to understand each
other, and we won't be able towin on issues that we care about
, and we certainly won't be ableto convince the other side of
anything if we never talk tothem or we never listen to them.

Brianna (57:28):
Yep, well, you know I agree with that.
So I want to really get into itand I want to ask you some
pointed questions so we can getthrough it.
I remember the first time, cenk, I heard you talk about trans
rights and it was positive.
It was a very positive aspect.
It was back during the Bushyears.
I tried to find the clip to showit to people, but this was

(57:49):
literally almost 20 years agoand I was a trans woman that was
very newly out of the closetand I would watch your show and
hear you someone who respondedto testosterone a lot better
than any of us did likeadvocating for my rights in an
era where, over on MajorityReport, like Dreen Garofalo and
Sam Seder are joking aboutladyboys.

(58:12):
So I've seen like a realintegrity for standing up for
trans rights for you forliterally 20 years.
And yet you know this fringemove of the trans our trans
advocates have pointed youpainted you out as this, like
super villain over the last fiveyears, which is so troubling to
me.
So I guess I wanted to ask youin a personal way, like, how has

(58:36):
this been for you emotionallyto have spent literally 20 years
advocating for all of our civilrights and to be talked about
like you're a villain.
Does it make you just want tonot talk about this issue at all
?
How does it make you and therest of Young Turks feel?

Cenk (58:52):
Yeah.
So, look, in the beginning itwas a shell shock.
I couldn't believe the reactionwe were getting.
Now, unfortunately, I've gottenvery used to it, so, but let me
walk you through both of thosethings.
So, however many years back, Isaid look, I think that some of

(59:15):
these positions I don't agreewith.
I think that we're takingmaximalist positions here on
like, for example, professionalsports leagues.
I think they should be able tomake up their own mind and make
their own decisions on whetherthey allow trans women into
women's leagues, etc.
I thought that was just a verynormal position to have, because

(59:36):
that's probably where 95% ofAmericans are.
The blowback that I got wasyou're a Nazi.
I was like wait what?
First of all, thank you forpointing out that we've been
fighting for constitutionalrights and for dignity, respect,
equality and justice for transpeople for over 20 years.

(59:59):
So when some Johnny come lately, comes by and goes, oh, I just
tuned into the internet and findout that you don't have the
maximalist position, so I thinkyou're against trans rights,
well, first of all, brothers andsisters, do your goddamn
homework.
And we had the courage to fightfor trans people when almost no
one was doing it.

(01:00:19):
That's right.

Brianna (01:00:19):
That's right.
So I want to walk peoplethrough what your actual
argument was, jane, because Iactually you don't know this
when I go on TV shows.
I wrote down the speech ofyours because it was so good.
And what you did is you went infront of your audience.
You said look, people are withtrans people on everything on
housing, on education, on accessto surgery, on even serving in
the military.

(01:00:40):
Is this one thing Sports, thepolls show?
They're not with you and if youchase this issue, you're going
to lose it all.
And you said that.
I think it was three years agoand it has proven to be wildly
true.
So what is it?
What is the cost to you andeveryone at TYT been to have
told us the truth about this andto have gotten so much blowback

(01:01:03):
?

Cenk (01:01:04):
Well, so what?
What I've gotten used to isfolks who are other online hosts
or influencers, et cetera.
One having extreme positionsand, if anyone disagrees,
calling them a Nazi, which isthe most counterproductive thing
on planet Earth, right.

(01:01:25):
Number two I've gotten used tothem lying about us just 24-7.
That's just like there's now anassembly line of lies about our
positions.
So I'm used to that.
But the part that, of course,frustrates me is that what any
human being is they get goodpeople to believe things that
aren't true.
If you ask the normal person onthe left these days, hey, do

(01:01:50):
Young Turks, cenk and Annabelieve in trans rights?
They'd probably say no, that'snot even close.
It's so frustrating to havethat.
But look, the ironic upsidehere is we've done these kind of
fights so many times, dozens oftimes, throughout the 22 years

(01:02:12):
of the Young Turks right thatwe're used to it.
And so what will happen is, ina couple of years from now,
people will realize oh, themaximalist position not only is
not a good position to have interms of electoral strategy
overall, but actually hurtstrans people.
And what will happen after thatis absolutely no one will come
back and go oh, the Young Trustwere right.

(01:02:32):
Thank you for protecting transrights and doing it with a
better strategy.
That will never happen.
It never happens in any fightand it won't happen here.
But we do the right thing, nomatter what.
And let me give an example frommy identity group to give you
guys a sense of why I think it'ssuch a bad idea.
So, for example, I'm Muslim andthere was in the first term of

(01:02:54):
Trump.
He promised in the firstcampaign that there would be a
Muslim ban.
He tried some form of a Muslimban, et cetera.
Right Now, this is a tinylittle thing and it wasn't a
national issue.
I'm just giving it as anextreme example.
There was a story that we did, Ithink out of Minneapolis a long

(01:03:15):
time ago, about some localMuslims there were demanding
that a guy be able to serve atthe grocery store local grocery
store but since he was Muslim,he didn't want to touch the pork
, the ham, the, everything else.
So he wanted an exemption fromhis job whenever it came to any
products that were not halal.
And my point was guys, no,don't.
Yes, yeah, because brother,then don't take that job.
I love you, don't take that't.
That's not the hill to climb.
Yes, yeah, because brother,then don't take that job.

(01:03:35):
I love you, but don't take thatjob.
That's part of the job, 100%Right.

Brianna (01:03:39):
As trans women, I probably should not take a job
as a surrogate for someone.
That's not going to be a goodjob for me.
Right, there are just some jobsyou can't do because of your
situation.

Cenk (01:03:50):
there are just some jobs you can't do because of your
situation, and if we hadinsisted on that being our
maximalist position, somethingthat, whether it was a Muslim
ban or any other thing againstMuslims in America, would have
been more likely, not lesslikely, because everyone would
have assumed that we were sounreasonable that what it meant
is that if you want to protectMuslim rights, you have to

(01:04:13):
create special exemptions formuslims everywhere, and so it's
just a terrible strategy, and soI I'm so worried that the
maximalist people on transrights are hurting, uh, the
protect the, the goal ofprotecting trans people in this
country without realizing it.

Schyler (01:04:32):
Yeah, you know, Cenk, to that point.
I think this really came to theforefront for me when I saw the
episode or it was actually justa YouTube video that Benny
Carallo put out.
She was a member on the YoungTurks, one of the show hosts, I
think, and she was like I'mleaving, and it was over this

(01:04:53):
exact issue of the trans rightsin sport, what that means, and
of course, she was taking thatmaximalist position and I just
couldn't help but think likethis is, you know?
It's emblematic of where thatmaximalist position goes and how
it divides people.
But it's also like who are youtalking to?
Are you in a bubble here, Likewho is like actually not using

(01:05:19):
their eyes and ears and can justsee the blatant unfairness
that's happening?
I mean, it's just seems soobvious to me that it's not
where we need, where we want togo with things, besides the fact
that polls are consistentlytelling us this too.

Cenk (01:05:30):
Yeah, and so, look, they are in a bubble, and that's a
polite way of putting it.
And the thing about bubbles attheir extreme is that they never
allow for dissent, becausedissent bursts the bubble right.
And so if someone goes one inchoutside of orthodoxy and

(01:05:51):
orthodoxy, by the way, that noone voted on and no one asked
trans people in this country,nobody asked them for a vote on
it.
I mean, that's why I keep usingthe Latinx example.
Latinx comes out, I instantlygo that's crazy.
I'm not saying it.
I know hundreds of Latinos.
I've never once heard any ofthem say Latinx.

(01:06:11):
You guys just made that up in alab at Oberlin, okay, and so you
pretend and, most importantly,you're pretending to speak for
Latinos without asking them.
Okay and so, and then it turnedout they did a poll and 96% of
Latinos hate Latinx.
And so, in the same exact way,nobody ever asked trans people

(01:06:33):
in this country.
Hey, what?
What is the position that youguys are in favor of?
That's right on any of theseissues.
They just declared, as king ofthe trans, apparently, or the
king of the left, that these notrans community believes in
maximalist positions and if wedon't get that, then we're fine
losing.

Schyler (01:06:50):
No, no no, ask them, have a conversation or just
platform certain trans peoplethat will take those positions
and make it seem like that's thedominant narrative.
That's right, when you know.
That's why we're here to kindof push back a little bit and
offer some more new.

Brianna (01:07:04):
So, jake and I want to say this because like this is I
think you're dead on with thisno one, we don't feel like we
have a voice in major media, theNew York Times, right-wing
media None of us on the showfeel like we have a voice or a
user represented in any part ofthis conversation.
But I want to talk about theBenny example, and you're
probably too polite to say this.

(01:07:24):
I'm not, and Benny made somereally personal accusations
about you being a transphobe andshe alleged this phone call
that you've had with her sayinglike you just did a bunch of
transphobic stuff.
How long have we workedtogether?
It's got to be, it's what?
Six years.
At this point, you are probablythe most supportive person in my

(01:07:48):
entire career at being trans.
I have y'all.
There have been days wherepeople have gone after me.
I've called Cenk nearly intears and in between media hits.
He has taken time to be afriend for me.
He is when I've wanted to putout ads with Rebellion Pack that
were pro-trans or hire transpeople to work at Rebellion Pack

(01:08:09):
.
He's been nothing butsupportive and I can't reconcile
the person Benny is with thefriend that I've had for many
years has had my back over andover and over again and I really
resent that.
You've got these extremists outthere that are taking some of
our best friends and talkingabout them and characterizing

(01:08:30):
them in ways that just are sodivorced from reality.

Cenk (01:08:34):
Yeah, and unfortunately part of that is that we're in
the attention business and it'san ugly business to be in.
Right, Because in the case ofBenny, I gave her a platform in
being a contributor in the TYTnetwork where no one else did,
and I've done that for transfolks, African Americans,

(01:08:57):
Latinos you name it all acrossthe board, right and over and
over again, and no matter howmany times we get attacked.
We never change our policies.
We never change anything.
We just keep hiring those samefolks again and again anyway,
because everyone's an individualand because Benny did crazy
things, that doesn't mean everytrans person is going to do that

(01:09:17):
.
That's crazy, right and so.
But unfortunately, some go outon a blaze of glory because they
think if I attack the YoungTurks, I'm going to attract a
lot of attention, which isunfortunately true.
That's what happens every time.
If people by the way, a lot ofpeople have left on really,
really good terms with the YoungTurks, and do you know who they
are?
Unfortunately, you don't, sothat's why people, when they're

(01:09:43):
going out especially if theywere not being you know, benny
unfortunately was not successfulin getting a lot of views,
right and so, but the one thingthat worked for her was
attacking us, and the commontheme that you see in almost
everyone who left is nowremember everybody, don't
subscribe to the Young Turks,subscribe to me, wow, okay,

(01:10:06):
alright, and look, both thingscan be true at the same time.
They could truly be in thatbubble and believe the things
that we think are a little bitcrazy, but they don't, and they
think that's great and normaland moral.
Plus, they could also wanttheir attention right.

Brianna (01:10:22):
So, as long as I'm attacking people in this
interview, I want to use anotherexample of a former Young Turks
person I'm incrediblyfrustrated right now with, and
that's Emma Vicklin.
You know I had subscribed toMajority Report literally since
the Bush years.
I was there for Break Room Live.
Every bit of it with Sam Sederused to be my favorite show.

(01:10:46):
With the way the majorityreport.
You have a bunch of cis peopleon this show that have these
maximalist positions on everysingle part of this.
You've got Emma who is out herepushing like she doesn't have
to live the reality of any ofthe extreme positions she's
putting out there.
If she says trans women shouldbe in sports period, If she says

(01:11:10):
non-binary people need to go inthe bathroom, there are no
restrictions, no medical pathway, dismantle, everything in sight
.
She doesn't have to live withthe complications of that.
She'll get praised online.
It's the safest point of view,but there's no.
I'm so frustrated that there'sthis project of extremist

(01:11:31):
leftists that are speaking overus in the community.

Cenk (01:11:35):
Yes, there's a couple of different issues there.
So if Emma, sam, etc.
Want to have a maximalistposition, you know that's fine,
I don't get to veto it, that'snot my business, it's their show
, right.
And even if you're trans andyou think that they're hurting
the community, you just have tomake a counterpoint and there's

(01:11:56):
nothing we can do about peoplewho we don't agree with.
So that part is perfectlynormal, frustrating, but normal,
right.
And so what bothers me is notthat Because, by the way,
there's hosts at the TURTNetwork that have those same
positions, right.
And what we do is we engage indialogue, debate, et cetera, and
try to inform the audience ofboth points of view so they can

(01:12:18):
make up their own mind.
My issue with, with thedirection they've gone is
they're saying if you don'tagree with us, you're immoral,
you're right wing and immoral,and there is no, you're not
allowed to dissent.
But again, who elected you amayor of trans world or America,

(01:12:40):
or the left wing, like I coulddo the same thing.
I can say, hey, you know, and Ithink we're more factually
correct, of course, right, whichis that, hey, I believe that if
you go to those maximumpositions you're hurting trans
community, right, and so if Ithat, I could say well, that's
it, emma, you're not allowed tosay anything anymore because
you're hurting the transcommunity.
My opinion is you're hurtingthe trans community.

(01:13:02):
So I win, I win right.
Yeah, because that's.
And and if you look at it thatway, the they will say well,
that's absurd, you can't saythat, but that's absurd, you
can't say that.
But guys, that's literally what.
Majority Report is saying that'sliterally what these other guys
are saying.
And then they use this excuseof you're hurting vulnerable
communities.
But wait a minute.
We disagree on what hurts andhelps vulnerable communities.

(01:13:24):
In fact, I'm Muslim, so Muslimand trans people are at the very
front lines of people who mightbe harmed by this new
administration.
Right and by the right way.
So when you tell me I'm notallowed to have a certain
opinion about my own communitybecause I would be hurting
vulnerable communities, you'renot actually trying to protect

(01:13:45):
those communities.
You're trying to protect yourown opinion and you're trying to
make it seem immoral todisagree with you on strategy
and policy, and that's what Ithink is really harmful 100%.

Taf (01:13:58):
I want to jump in on that because I see a really big
parallel in the incentivestructures.
You're talking about bubblesand echo chambers here.
I think it's clear that somepeople they exist in an
environment where everyonearound them is super progressive
and they might be, you know,cisgender or transgender.
But at the end of the day, ifyou are advocating these

(01:14:23):
maximalist positions, which arelanding well because you live in
, you know, san Francisco, thatdoesn't help trans people who
live in Texas who thenultimately have to live with the
consequences of everyone aroundthem pointing fingers and
saying look how crazy theDemocrats are on these issues.
I see a big parallel betweenthis and issues all across the
board.
Take climate change, forexample.

(01:14:43):
It's really hard to understandclimate change and yet if you're
on the right, there's a bigincentive to just say I don't
really believe it right, becausethat's so much easier than
going into the research anddeeply understanding these
complex issues.
So I think we have this problemsocietally with information and
the incentive structures aroundadopting positions.

(01:15:04):
I wonder for you if you see asolution to this.
How do we break out of thiscycle of just taking whatever
position is convenient andactually get to the truth of the
matter?

Cenk (01:15:16):
Yeah.
So let me use two examples hereagain.
So I was just at AMFEST that'sthe big Target Point USA
conference over the weekend, andI am blowback for that.

Brianna (01:15:30):
Could not believe that.
Stupidest blowback in history.

Cenk (01:15:33):
Yeah.
So they said like, literally,the critics are saying talking
to anyone who voted for Trump islike an act of racism and so,
but guys, how could?
Are you?
Do they really think that 77million people that voted for
Trump are all fascists, are allracist?
77 million people that votedfor Trump are all fascists, are

(01:15:53):
all racists, are all sexists.
I can't believe that.
Their bubble is so thick thatthey can't see that's an insane
and untenable position, right?
But when I went to go talk toAaron I've done this now on
dozens of shows I start with apoint of agreement.
So on sports, by the way, noteven high school sports, I don't

(01:16:16):
agree with them.
On high school sports, I thinkI don't want to check the
genitalia of millions of kidsbecause they're worried about
trans women competingcross-country against girls.
Who cares, right.
So, but I could have thatdebate with them and I could
have that battle.
But on professional sports, Iagree with them and I start with
that point of agreement.
Then I say now let me get pointof agreement with you guys on
constitutional rights, right,and so on housing, employment,

(01:16:40):
healthcare, core constitutionalrights, you agree that trans
Americans are like every otherAmericans and we're all 100%
American and should have 100%constitutional rights, and
almost every right wing hostthat I've talked to says, yes,
you're right about that.
Oh my God, we just establisheda floor.
That is excellent.
And then let's layer on top andhave those debates, right?

(01:17:04):
And I did it at AmFest and thereaction was interesting, right?
Yeah, I would say two-thirds,the best that I could assert.
Two-thirds of the roomapplauded trans constitutional
rights.
Yeah, okay, at AmFest, that'simpressive.
Yeah.
So now Charlie said well, Idon't know if housing is a
constitutional right, so I'lldebate that with him on another

(01:17:26):
day, right?
So it's a mixed bag.
You're not going to get likenirvana overnight, but look at
these gains we're making when weactually have a conversation,
right?
And so again back to uh.
You know my identity.
To give you another example,that isn't about trans issues.
So I was talking to a right winghost, uh, last week on there,

(01:17:48):
and then, after we went off air,he said you know what I really
appreciate about you, cenk, orwe might even have done it on
air.
He said you put out a videoexplaining how to pronounce your
name.
Okay, and tell me more, right?
And he's like look, your nameis hard to pronounce and you
acknowledge it, whereas I feelattacked if I said Kamala Harris

(01:18:09):
the wrong way and if people saythat I'm a racist for that,
when I had no bad intent.
You see how we're pushingpeople away.
Nobody knows how to pronounce J.
It's C to the J.
Nobody knows that.
Stop assuming bad intent,because once you do that, you're

(01:18:29):
not bringing people into yourside, you're pushing them away
from you.

Taf (01:18:35):
No, I mean just, there's a real incentive to just bludgeon
people at any chance you getwith, you know, slightly
stepping over the line, andthere's an expectation more and
more that if someone makes youfeel bad, even a little bit like
they are in the wrong, andthat's turned out to be a very
powerful a little bit like theyare in the wrong and that's
turned out to be a very powerfulbludgeon, especially on the

(01:18:55):
progressive side.
Progressives are very sensitiveto people's feelings and so as
soon as someone is told like, oh, you're actually making me feel
bad, you're racist or whatever,that really lands and it seems
like it's getting people to shutup and not actually have these
conversations or, you know, justcontinually take positions

(01:19:16):
which are more and more focusedon protecting the slightest harm
to the tiniest minority groupLatinx, a good example, you know
.
Maybe it helps.
You know some tiny percentageof non-binary, you know Latino
people, but most Latin people,latino people, are not falling
into that category and then theyfeel really isolated.

(01:19:38):
So I just see that everywhere.

Cenk (01:19:41):
Yeah, thank you for saying that and I think it's so true.
Like that, guys.
If, why did we lose the popularvote when the Democrats hadn't
lost the popular vote in over 20years?
Right, and it seemed like itwas over.
In fact, the Republicansstarted putting out talking
points against democracy becausethey thought they were never
going to win the popular voteagain.

(01:20:02):
Because the minute that anyonedisagrees with us 1% we
immediately call them right-wingfascists and push them out
right and right-wing fascistsand push them out right.
And the minute that you agreewith I agree with MAGA 5%,
actually probably more than that.
Now 10%, 20%.
Why?
Because I didn't go towardsthem.
They came towards me.
They say they're anti-war,anti-corruption, they want to

(01:20:24):
pardon Edward Storten, cut thePentagon, they hate Mitch
McConnell, they hate Dick Cheney.
Oh great, I'm going to take yesfor an answer, right, and they
say no, that's unacceptable.
So when I say I agree with MAGA5%, they say welcome, come on
in, come on in right.
And when I say I disagree withthe left 5% they go get away

(01:20:44):
from us, we don't want you,right?
Well, that's how you lose.
And to your point aboutfeelings.
Okay, there's two parts to that.
That's really interesting One.
You hurt my feelings so you'renot allowed to have.
That opinion is not a logicalargument.
No, Unfortunately it's effective, not logical, yeah, and so it's

(01:21:05):
not logical, because everybodyhas different feelings and just
for that has different feelings,and just for that we have to
figure out, we have to adjustfor 330 million feelings, and
you can't ever get to a positionthat doesn't offend someone's
feelings, right?
So it's absurd on its face,point one.
Point two is they're gianthypocrites about it because they

(01:21:26):
don't actually care aboutpeople's feelings.
Why do I say that?
So do you think it might hurtour feelings when you call us
Nazis?
Yeah, our feelings don't count,and it's not about me or Anna.
No, no, no, no.
It's about anyone they disagreewith.
So you don't mind hurting thefeelings of people you disagree
with, but you mind it intenselywhen they hurt your feelings.

Brianna (01:21:49):
You know what that sounds like.
By the way, ironically, thatsounds like a right-winger.

Cenk (01:21:53):
Yeah, because right-wing says hey, if it happens to you,
I don't give a damn.
If it happens to me, then Icare a lot, right.

Brianna (01:21:59):
So, cenk, I wanted to talk about this because I think,
like, the reaction to you atthe Charlie Kirk event is really
emblematic, and you know, whenyou ran for president, this is
about the time I really had hitmy limit with.
I think it's something youpointed out, a side of the left
that I think is increasinglyfascist in the way that they

(01:22:21):
behave.
It's about shutting down debate, it's about moralizing, it's
about control and you know,there's a playbook that I've
been through a lot and I thinkyou have been uniquely through
this playbook of doubtingpeople's intentions and taking
the most cynical read of it andturning you into an enemy just
for having a slight differenceof opinion, and I think the

(01:22:43):
Charlie Kirk event is a reallygood example.
Yeah, I heard you go to thatand I'm like okay, cenk is my
friend.
I literally do not know anotherperson in Democratic politics
that will just tell you whatyou're thinking Like.
There's no pretext with you.
You just you will tell anyonewho will ask, you will shout it
on the air.
This is the strategy I'mthinking about.

(01:23:04):
This is where I believe weshould go, and you're exactly
that person in back channel,tremendously direct.
But there's this entirepolitical project that you know
again, emma Vegland was doingthis to you literally yesterday,
putting doubt on it,insinuating that you're trying
to like rationalize, like racismor like these Nazi impulses,

(01:23:26):
and there's this tendency toreally darken and to doubt every
single one of your intentions.
So my question is how do publicfigures like you and me, how do
we turn the left around?
Because the conclusion I'vecome to is, as much as I am
aligned with progressivepolitics, I think there's
something so fundamentallybroken within progressivism that

(01:23:50):
I don't think we're going towin.
It's not because our ideas aregood, it's because there's such
a tendency to rip ourselvesapart over the most minute
differences that I don't see anyfuture where we get power
together.
So, like, how do we deal withthis like fundamentally toxic
dynamic that exists on our ownside?

Cenk (01:24:11):
fundamentally toxic dynamic that exists on our
inside.
Yeah, so great question, butfirst let me put you at ease,
Brianna.
Sure, we've been around for 22years and we always win.
Yeah, so it takes a long timeoftentimes.
I mean, we went through theDave Rubin fights and the Jimmy
Dore fights and before that theSam Harris fights, and people

(01:24:31):
don't even remember anymore likesargon of akkad and oh,
everybody the sargon is right.
That was like I don't know twodecades ago, right?
So all those folks are, are youknow not where they used to be,
and all the people who thought,oh no, no, young turks will
never survive this, etc.
And so, but why?
Because being open-minded isthe correct answer, that's right
.
Being open-minded is thecorrect answer, that's right.

(01:24:52):
Being open-hearted is thecorrect answer.
So, if you stay on the correctcourse, you're going to get to
the right answer.
But what it requires is courage, because I know we're walking
into the eye of the storm, right, and when we diverge 5% from

(01:25:12):
this orthodoxy that came out ofthe online community and that
bubble that doesn't exist in thereal world, right, that we're
going to get massive blowback,nuclear blowback, sure, but
that's okay, yeah, because, guys, there's no way around this
except fighting through that,like you're not going to be able

(01:25:33):
to politely change people'sminds.

Brianna (01:25:38):
I find this a disappointing answer, though,
jane, because I think there'ssomething structurally that is
broken in the left.
Right now is more broken thanit was 20 years ago.
It's very fast to get moralizedthe attention economy has made
us.
There's so much clout in usgoing against each other.
Do you really not think this isa structural problem that's
getting worse?

Cenk (01:25:58):
You know it's a structural problem, but we're going to get
past it.
How do we do that, though?
The way to get past it is toforce these conversations.
Okay, say, be strong, say whatyou're going to say, have them
call you a right winger andfight that fight, and, at the
end, if the audience and thevoters come in our direction,
then we win that fight and weread so what happened, guys, is

(01:26:21):
that when I co-founded JusticeDemocrats, the rest of them
meant Bernie Sanders, right.
So all the economicallypopulous positions that we love
Medicare for all, paid familyleave, et cetera right.
And it also meant on socialissues, we protect gay marriage.
We were for gay marriagedecades before the democratic

(01:26:42):
leadership were, et cetera.
We protect trans rights.
We protect all of our rightsright.
But then, unfortunately, someof the folks who got elected in
Just Democrats, like AOC etc.
And some leaders online said no, progressive means the most
extreme positions on socialissues.

(01:27:02):
Every time, and they kind ofredefined progressive to make it
seem more extreme, and thewhole time I'm going no, that
doesn't represent everybody inthe progressive ecosystem.
In fact, it represents only aminority, a tiny minority of

(01:27:25):
people in the progressiveecosystem.
And then on top of that it'sterrible electoral strategy and
on top of that it's bullying.
It's all of these things right.
So now I want to slowly reclaimthe word progressivism and I'm
adding populism, so people cango oh right, the economic stuff,
I get it.
Oh right, the anti-corruptionstuff, the anti-war stuff,

(01:27:49):
universal health care, et cetera.
So that's progressive populism,right, or populist progressives
.
And then eventually I want toreclaim the whole word.
But right now we got some workto do in that direction before
people start thinking aboutprogressives as good guys who
are fighting for things thathelp all of us and protect all
of our rights, as opposed toextremists who only want the

(01:28:12):
most maximum positions that mostAmericans don't agree.

Schyler (01:28:16):
You know this.
This totally reminds me of ameme I was just reading.
Colin Wright put this outactually, he was one of our
first guests on our show and itwas just this little meme of a,
of a, of like a line ofpositions, and it was showing
over time and it was at the end.
The key phrase was I didn'tleave the left, the left left me

(01:28:37):
, and it's like I just keephearing that over and over in
this dialogue and I'm like thatis just how I feel.
Like when I was talking with myfriends about this recent
election and I was like, yeah,who are you voting for?
And they're all pretty centristactually.
Um, they, they were like, well,we're going to vote Kamala.
But I was like so what's?
What policy does she has thatinspires you?

(01:28:57):
And they were like, uh, it, Idon't really.
I don't know, I just really hateTrump, I just don't like Trump,
and it's like it's there justfelt like there was no, there
was nothing really unifying themtowards Kamala, and it got me
thinking what's the vision herewith the Democratic Party, and
where's the anti-establishmentleft that used to be to me, used

(01:29:19):
to be part of the Democrats 10,20 years ago, and why is it so
establishment heavy or friendly?
I felt like that was whatKamala was sort of running on
and they all of had the samelike sympathy here and it was
just because they didn't wantTrump that they were voting for
and it wasn't like a very strongum, I don't know.

(01:29:41):
They just weren't passionateabout it at all, and I was.
I was wondering if you couldspeak a little bit to what do
you think the direction is forprogressive politics, like in
terms of focusing on populismand those types of things?

Cenk (01:29:53):
Yeah.
So, first of all, these colorsdon't run.
And what I mean by that is andI've been saying this for 20
years and we put the Americanflag in the TYT logo for over a
decade.
So some portions of the leftsaid, oh, america's bad and
American history's bad and youshouldn't love America, right,

(01:30:15):
and oh, the flag is.
You know, the right wing wrapsthemselves in the flag and stuff
.
I was like no, no, no guys,american history is filled with
toxic stuff.
Of course, slavery, theslaughter of the Native
Americans, we can go on and on.
That's obviously true, right,and you shouldn't deny that.
You should learn from that,right.
But to say that all of Americais bad is ridiculous.

(01:30:39):
My family came here because ofthe great parts of America and
we love this country.
So don't run away from theAmerican flag.
Say that the American flag isbetter represented by the left
because we fight for equalityand justice.
Yes, right.
And the same is true of of whyleft, left.

(01:31:00):
I'm never going to say that I'mnot leaving the left, and so I,
I stand and fight, so theydon't get to say who's the left
and who isn't, especially whenthey're wrong.
I'll give you an example on atopic we haven't talked about,
because it's so important forpeople to understand this.

(01:31:21):
On crime, what happened?
Again, they took the maximalistposition in California to turn
felonies into misdemeanors,including assault, some forms of
domestic assault.
In California.
To turn felonies intomisdemeanors, including assault,
some forms of domestic assault.
I'm like what are we doing?
Who, why?
Nobody wanted this.
I've been in every progressiveget together for like the last
20 years and I never heardanybody say yeah, you know what,

(01:31:42):
let's turn felonies intomisdemeanors, 70,000 criminals
out of jail, without you knowdoing proper vetting, right or
ahead of time, ahead of time.
Nobody voted for that, nobodywanted that, nobody pushed for
that.
So I don't even know wherethese crazy maximalist positions
came from.
And they said Jake, you'recrazy, you're feeding in a

(01:32:04):
right-wing narrative and crimeis imaginary.
There is no crime problem,you're just imagining it.
I'm like, okay, except here'sthe stats from 2019 to 2023 in a
place like California, andcrime definitely went up, you
know, and I gave you the stats40%, this, 50% increase in that,
et cetera.
And then we had a vote and wefinally voted on it in

(01:32:26):
California.

Schyler (01:32:28):
I have a personal story to that.
I had my suitcase stolen on atrip to California, right
outside of San Jose and likethis rings so true.
And when I went to report thecrime because I was like, okay,
I lost a drone and all thisstuff, the police literally said
, oh, thank God, this is over.
I think it was $750 orsomething like that, or else
they wouldn't even record itbecause this just doesn't even

(01:32:50):
matter and it's like this is isinsane, it's so sad.
I love california and the statehas just gone so downhill yeah.

Cenk (01:32:57):
So $950 is was the limit, and then underneath that it
becomes a misdemeanor.
But the problem was thatmisdemeanors get pled down to
nothing, so people were justwalking right out the door right
, and anytime anybody complainedabout it, the extreme left
would yell at him and go you'rea right winger and you're being
bougie, okay.

(01:33:18):
In fact, emma did a video whereshe said if you get punched in
the subway, bougie is acomplaint.
I'm like no, no, it's bougie,not a complaint, because it's
the working class that's gettingpunched in the face in the
subway.
There aren't billionaires inthe subway getting punched in
the face with a knucklehead,it's the working class.

(01:33:38):
And so, like, wait, we'resupposed to like we went from
hey, if you smoke a joint, youshouldn't go away for life.
That's mental right.
You shouldn't go to jail at allfor smoking.
A showing to let's let outcriminals, because that's the
left wing position.
No, it's not.
Wait, are you saying like, forexample, the trans community and

(01:33:59):
again, the Muslim community?
Are we pro crime?
No, we're anti crime.
It's done to us.
We're very, very anti crime.
So do not speak on our behalfand tell us that, oh, it's no
big deal if there's assault,you're bougie to complain if
you're trans and you gotassaulted.
But of course they don't saythat.
They say if you're trans andyou got assaulted, that's awful,

(01:34:21):
yeah.
But if you're a white male, oreven if you're an
African-American woman andyou're working class and you're
on the subway, then maybe it'snot awful that you got assaulted
and you should shut up about it.
Otherwise you're helping aright wing narrative right, see
they?

Brianna (01:34:34):
do this to trans people , cenk.
They say like look at thebathroom situation, the WeSPA
thing in California, right, asex pervert goes in there,
abuses a loophole in Californialaw to walk in, has an erect
penis and just has a fetishshowing this to women and like.

(01:34:57):
For me, as a trans woman, I'mprobably more angry about this
than a lot of like cis women are, just because it makes it puts
my rights at risk, it makes uslook like perverts and it's like
nobody asked me or anyone onthe show about that policy.
It's terrible and this is thefundamental problem.
Is the progressive move anytimelike complications from these
policies we've advocated, likedefund the police?

(01:35:19):
Every time it comes up, it getslike they just want to pretend
all these complications aren'tthere.
We're talking a big structuralchange top to bottom.
We have to have a wideelectorate that we can work with
, some of which is going to bemore right-leaning, some of
which is going to be moreleft-leaning, which is why it's
so critical we don't fall intothis rabbit hole of identity

(01:35:42):
politics.
It's got to be economic innature, it's got to be about
dignity for everyone, and what Iwant to do sometimes is shake
these hosts and go like go runfor office, because when I ran
for office I had to go do thingslike talk to the elevator union
.
And let me tell you, the guysthat go to like union school to

(01:36:04):
learn how to install elevators,they're not sitting there like
reading about queer theory,about non-binary pronouns,
they're working class peoplethat have to get up at four in
the morning and work till 10o'clock at night to go hit a
deadline.
That's who we say we represent.
So I don't know why we're sounrealistic about that.

Cenk (01:36:24):
Really awesome, yeah, I understand and to finish, the
thought about okay, well, whoactually represents the
Democratic voters and voters onthe left?
So, on that crime issue,california had a Prop 36 that
took those misdemeanors andbrought them back up to felonies

(01:36:44):
, being tougher on crime.
So if the extreme left wascorrect, well, that would fail
because California isoverwhelmingly Democratic.
It passed with 70 percent ofthe vote.
Of course it did Democraticvoters going.
No, you misunderstood what I'msaying.
I am not at all pro-crime, Ihate crime, right.
And then in Oakland they had adefund the police mayor.
They recalled her and the votewas 65-35 in Oakland.

(01:37:10):
So meanwhile, people on theseextreme left hosts are
pretending that they representblack and brown communities and
we're not allowed to disagreewith them on crime because we
would be hurting vulnerablecommunities.
I'm like you knuckleheads.
You guys sound racistcommunities by protecting
criminals.
No, the black and browncommunities in Oakland just told

(01:37:32):
you to shut the F up.
The 65-35 recall vote.
When is it going to get throughyour thick head?
You do not represent the left,you do not represent democratic
voters and anytime they have achance to show it to you, they
do in overwhelming fashion.

Taf (01:37:48):
I think the thing is, whenever you go to war with
reality and just surroundyourself with yes men and people
who are telling you what youwant to believe, you lose.
You can't win against the realworld, and we see that happen
again and again.
I want to go to Kelly in just amoment because I believe she
had another question as well.

Kelly (01:38:07):
I was just curious because I know it must be hard,
like with all the pushback thatyou guys received, like on the
Young Turks.
Like I know it's not just Bennythat you guys had issues with,
it was also like Sandy Lauvez,as well as Mike I believe it's
Figueroa, who are two other LGBTmembers who left your guys to
show.
And it's like do you ever justfind yourself like because I

(01:38:28):
know, like one of these issueswas because you guys refused to
use the term like birthingperson or your position on trans
people in sports that do youever just find yourself wanting
to go down that right wingpipeline and just give up on
even trying to support the left,because I know it can just
probably get so exhausting afterdoing this for so many years,
you know yeah, it'd beprofitable so a couple of things

(01:38:50):
.

Cenk (01:38:51):
Um, mike was not a contributor.
He is.
He was part of the networkearlier.
He had left a long time ago.
So I I don't know what he'ssaying these days, but people
make up stuff all the time, uh,but, um, so those folks are not,
are never going to change mypolicy opinions.
To answer the core of yourquestion, right?

(01:39:12):
So it's not.
And I get why a regular and Iwrote about this on x the other
day I get why regular people, ifyou call them, uh, a fascist,
racist, uh, even if theydisagree with you, five percent,
just five percent are gonna go.
Okay, then I'm not, then I hateyou guys.
I mean, you're telling me, youhate me, you're calling me crazy
names and you're pushing me out.

(01:39:33):
So I guess I'll go be aRepublican, right?
That's how a normie reacts,because they're not in politics
and so they don't know all thedifferent policies.
They just know oh, you guyshate me.
So I guess I must be MAGA,right, and that's why they're
winning these elections.
But we're not going to do thatbecause we care deeply about
policy.
So I'm not going to be, oh theyoffended me or oh, they hurt my

(01:39:54):
feelings, so I'm going tochange my policy positions and
I'm going to go support maga orbecome a republican or be
against trans rights.
No, I'll never, ever do that,and they're not going to get us
to move on our principles wherewe disagree, but they're also
not going to get us to move onour principles where we agree,
right, so that's, it's not ahelpful way to go.
On the other hand, back to thepoint, I think brianna was

(01:40:16):
making um, or one of you guyswere, uh, that um about emma,
right?
So, like now, we all got badfeelings, etc.
But I look, I don't think thatemma's an evil person and she's
sitting there going.
I'm going to get them to stop.
I'm sure that in her own mindshe went down this rabbit hole

(01:40:37):
and she really believes thethings that she's saying.
But what's really interestingis that I saw her recently
saying that beinganti-establishment is bad.
I said wait, what I mean?
The one thing that allprogressives agreed to was we're
fighting against theestablishment, we're fighting
against Hillary Clinton and JoeBiden, et cetera, and it feels

(01:40:59):
to me like they have now startedto shift their positions to
being pro-establishment, whichis a mind trip, because they
caught feelings about thepopulist left or something and
they're like, oh, if you're onBernie's side, then I guess
we're going to take our radicalpositions and go on Hillary's
side or something.
And I'm like, have you guys lostyour minds?

(01:41:21):
Like, what are you doing?
If, in this next primary in2028, they go and support a
corporatist like Pete Buttigiegor Gavin Newsom instead of a
populist candidate, acorporatist like Pete Buttigieg
or Gavin Newsom instead of apopulist candidate, that'll be a
marriage of like total insanityin the Democratic Party and it

(01:41:43):
would betray progressives morethan anything in the world, and
so I hope they don't go in thatdirection.
I hope they regain their sensesover the next three years so we
can actually coalesce in themost important primary we'll
ever have in our lifetime in2028, and pick a populist
progressive that can actuallywin the primary and win the
general election.

Taf (01:42:02):
I want to ask about those principles, because they're
coming up again and again, andsomething that is sort of an
undercurrent of thisconversation is whether you
prioritize strategy and opticsand rhetoric, or principles,
long-term, and one of the thingsthat I'm hearing from you you
mentioned earlier thatprogressives are always winning
in the long-term.

(01:42:22):
Do you see making concessionson these maximalist positions as
a temporary thing that you'redoing in order to build bridges,
or is that something that youreally believe, that the maximus
positions are incorrect?
Where do you land on that andwhat is your strategy look like
in terms of, you know,tactically avoiding taking a

(01:42:43):
more extreme position that youmight actually believe in?

Cenk (01:42:46):
Yeah, so right now, um, I have the ability to just stick
with the positions I believe in.

Taf (01:42:54):
Whatever you believe in yeah.

Cenk (01:42:55):
So, as it turns out, most of them are very popular.
Okay, so in a sense I got luckythere, but I also don't
emphasize the positions I havethat are not popular, right?
So the example I use at AmFestand I'll use here is I'm extreme
on gun control.
I don't think you should evenbe allowed to have a gun inside
your house.
I think you should be in alocker and you go and get it to

(01:43:18):
go hunting or whatever, and sothat's the rule in japan and
many european countries, andit's actually globally is a very
moderate position, but inamerica that would be extreme
left.

Brianna (01:43:29):
Yeah, I don't think you'll get that pass, cenk.
I don't think that will besuccessful.

Cenk (01:43:35):
That's exactly my point.
Look, I think that thatposition would save tens of
thousands of lives, and that'snot theoretical about.
You offended me and hence transpeople died, and I'm not even
bothering trying to make alogical connection.
Right, that is literally on guncontrol.
Tens of thousands of people diebecause I think we have the

(01:43:56):
wrong position.
But am I going to stake theDemocratic Party's electoral
chances on that position?
Hell, no, right, because whywould you die on an unpopular
hill?
That's insanity right so.
I'm willing to sacrificepositions that I deeply feel and

(01:44:18):
I'm attached to and I'mpositive, would save lives,
because you're not going to savethose lives if you lose the
election because you insisted ona maximalist position on any
given issue, position on anygiven issue.
So, for God's sake, we have tobe I'm not asking to be
practical in the old school,so-called moderate, corporatist
ways that mainstream mediapushes.

(01:44:40):
Oh, let's just be reasonableand give another corporate tax
cut.
No, no, that's not a realcompromise.
That's not where the Americanpeople are.
But if you don't compromise onwhere American people actually
are, well, you won't win andthat doesn't help anyone.

Brianna (01:44:57):
I think that's so well said.
I mean, there's all kinds ofpolicies.
I personally would Like look atthe non-binary stuff.
I have no issue with non-binarypeople, I will call people
whatever pronoun they want.
But we're at a point wherethere's a real policy question
about which parts of thetransgender movement are going
to be a priority and protectedby law, and I think we've got to

(01:45:18):
go with the ones that there's alot of scientific evidence to
justify is a health concern.
So I think this is a problem.
The left has a lot of troublemaking the difference between
left has a lot of trouble makingthe difference between yes,
like.
Personally I think that, like Iunderstand there are some

(01:45:39):
advantages that trans women havein sports.
Given the amount of suicidalideation I had as a child, I
think it's probably a wash Like.
If you just count it, I'm afairly skilled runner myself,
but I didn't have that trainingat a young age just because I
was like slitting my wrists allthe time right.
So I think there's like.
So I personally wish we couldget to a point where you have
trans women in sports.

(01:46:00):
It's just not politicallysellable.
So why have that fight?
It's not that important.
I need healthcare more thananything.
I realize we don't have a tonof time left, so I want to hit
you on just a few things.
So I was one of the first peopleto set you up with Destiny and
to get you to debate Destiny.
I was behind you going on ashow for the first time.

(01:46:22):
I've helped set up this stuffin Back Channel.
I did the debate on WIC TV theother day.
We're like because I know hisproducer, kyla, wants to have
you on for Bridges and I'm likeI don't know where this bridge
is right now between the two ofthem from some of your
statements.
So are you, are you just reallymad at Destiny?

(01:46:42):
Like how do you feel?
Because if we're talking aboutbuilding bridges, like he does
have a substantial audience thatis part of the Democratic Party
and I think they're importantto reach out to as much as MAGA
audience.
That is part of the DemocraticParty and I think they're
important to reach out to asmuch as MAGA, if that makes
sense.

Cenk (01:46:55):
Yeah, so look, no, no, no, I don't have any hard and fast
rules about destiny.
God knows, I've debated himplenty.

Brianna (01:47:04):
I think he won.
The last one it was one of thefew.
I think he's lost was the.
Should Biden drop out yeah.

Cenk (01:47:11):
I think I won them all, I think it's a little bit of a
wash but okay.
No, no, I don't have a hard andfast rule, it's just A.
I'm exhausted from debatingDestiny.
I've debated him on so manydifferent issues and I'm
exhausted from beating him upLike brother.
Take a break.

Brianna (01:47:30):
Debate someone who's?

Taf (01:47:31):
not a good at fighting.

Cenk (01:47:32):
Get back on your feet, um, but anyways.
But the other thing is like hetakes such contrarian positions
and I feel like he takes themjust to be contrarian and that
gets exhausting too.
So, but anyways, but I don'twant to make the same mistake
that others are, so I'm notclose-minded about it.
All right, a logical debate tohave.

Brianna (01:47:50):
Sure we'll have that I will send you the information.
I hope you'll go on bridges.
Kyla is a lovely person.
She's a really good friend ofmine and I think it would be
good if you two wereface-to-face to see if we can
get this Destiny Jank bridgebuilt, because I think, like I
know both of you really well andI think both of you are
fundamentally good people and Idon't think you have to agree on

(01:48:13):
everything to do good worktogether.
Like we all agree, like thesenext four years of Trump are
going to be really tough andthat the rule of law is really
important.
So I think, just starting fromthere, I think it's a good
conversation.

Cenk (01:48:26):
Yeah, no problem, We'll figure it out.
All that stuff will sort itselfout.
It's not that big a deal.
I mean, there's now like thistheme online that again the bad
faith far left is taking, whichis Jake won't debate the left.
I've debated destiny like 14times.

(01:48:47):
I debated the sun for fourhours, just like a month ago.
I debated the sun for fourhours just like a month ago.
I talked to Chris LeBall.
I was on Brian Tyler Cohentoday.
I mean, it goes on and on andon.
It's all bad faith.
I don't know anybody whodiscusses and debates both the
left, the right and the middlemore than I do.

Brianna (01:49:11):
So if somebody says I'm not, debating enough, they
might not have turned on acomputer in a while amazing.
All right, so I have a personalquestion for you.
This is on my list of stuff I,as I've gotten to know you over
the years, I have the sense like, if I think of an individual
that testosterone really agreedwith more than anyone on this
show, you are literally thefirst person I think of.

(01:49:31):
So I have always wanted to askyou what is it like to have
experienced testosterone and, Ipresume, to have enjoyed it?

Cenk (01:49:44):
I do.
This is another thing that wasforbidden to say, you know, by
the far left.
No, I love being a male and,look, it's in my nature and uh.
So, look, when I was a kid Italked about this on on the
young truce.
Uh, you know plenty of times,uh, especially in our bonus

(01:50:07):
episode for the members when wetell, like, more personal
stories.
So when I was a kid, I used toget into fights all the time and
, and the reason was because Iliked fighting, um and I and,
but I never got in trouble forit.
And the principal's like Idon't understand how you're in
this office every single weekfor a fight, but I can't ever
suspend you.
I want to suspend you so bad,but I can't because you never

(01:50:28):
started the fight.
So what the hell's going onhere?
I never explained to him mysecret.
My secret was I would let theother guy take the first punch.
Oh, wow, punch me in the face.
I don't mind, okay, because I'ma male, okay.
And so I've got testosterone onoverdrive here.

Brianna (01:50:52):
Yeah, you do.

Cenk (01:50:53):
And so eventually, and so you know, and I like the taste
of blood in my mouth Like I'm afighter through and through.

Brianna (01:51:02):
You can tell, we know.

Cenk (01:51:04):
And so eventually I realized wait, let's do this in
a more societally acceptable way.
So I became a middle linebacker.
And then there's this funnystory where they carried our
high school football games onlocal public access back when
that existed, right, and the guydoesn't know how to pronounce

(01:51:25):
my name and he tells a storyabout how our football coach
suited up during practice and hesaid you can hit me.
You can hit me because he'skind of a young guy in the shape
and stuff.
So he comes over the middle andI didn't like him much at all
anyway and I leveled and so theannouncer told that story and
then after I crunched, some guycoming over the middle in the
game and they said that's SankWeiger, he'll hit anybody.

Brianna (01:51:52):
So is this testosterone going into your brain?
Like are you just like this isthe super serum?
Like what was that?
Like for you?
Because I remember experiencingand going like this is hell.
I cannot think straight.
Oh, it's doing all this stuffto my body.

Cenk (01:52:07):
Like like you must have loved all of this no, I did, and
so, and so, when they weredoing a smear job on me when I
was running for Congress in 2020, I had an LA Times reporter
call me and ask me is it truethat you like women?
Yeah, wait, is that illegal now?

(01:52:28):
Is that unacceptable now?
So, yes, I like women.
Look, and part of the reason Itell people that is because
don't be ashamed of who you are.

Schyler (01:52:41):
No, right, yeah, right.

Cenk (01:52:45):
And you know, if you're male, female, you're trans,
you're gay.
There's nothing wrong with anyof that.
Okay, Right, we don't fight forjust some people.
We fight for all people female,you're, trans, you're gay
there's nothing wrong with anyof that, okay, we don't fight
for just some people.
We fight for all people.
We don't fight for some rights.
We fight for all constitutionalrights, right?
So you have a right to beanyone you want, have any gender

(01:53:06):
identity you want, and it'salso okay to have the gender
identity of fucking male.

Schyler (01:53:12):
I love that you're saying that.
I just love that.
I got three younger brothersand this was always a sticky
point for me.
Trying to bring them over tothe left at all is they're like
I can't be proud of who I am ifI'm leaving in the
intersectional model where it'slike this white guy at the top
and you're automatically anoppressor based on your identity

(01:53:34):
and it's it's like how can wethat's where we want to rescue
the left is.
We want to bring them back anddo exactly what you just said
and celebrate all the differentidentities that make that
possible, including cis, whitemen or men in general.
Like it's just, we need tobring that back and I'm glad to
see you like putting that here.

Cenk (01:53:55):
Yeah, and look, let me add one more thing to that.
Not all masculinity is toxicmasculinity.
No, of course not.
Right, so like, and can we uselanguage that other people can
relate to?
So when you say toxicmasculinity, first of all 90% of
Americans just shut off theirbrain Because they're like, ah,

(01:54:15):
it sounds like mumbo jumbo.
I hate it.
Okay, number two you made allmen feel like any masculinity is
toxic by definition, right,when, in reality, if you just
said to them hey guys, if you'reright, wingers and stuff, do
you like guys who beat up theirwives?
They're all going to go.
No, no, aren't those guysdouchebags?

(01:54:37):
Yeah, they're goddamndouchebags, right, and so that's
toxic masculinity.
When you take your aggressionand you direct it towards people
, you should not direct itbagsright and so that's toxic
masculinity.
When you take your aggressionand you direct it towards people
, you should not direct ittowards right and so, whereas
normal masculinity, there'snothing wrong with there's
nothing wrong with.
And so when the left says orimplies accidentally I hope it's

(01:55:00):
accidental that there'ssomething wrong with masculinity
, guess what you're going tolose Male voters Is this right.
One more thing about that Meand Anna noticed a couple of
years back that when if therewas somebody being criticized,
like Karen or someone who wasright-wing, et cetera, people

(01:55:24):
started adding in adjectivesthat they didn't need.
They were saying white womenshouldn't do this.
Well, look at how white womendo this.
I was like wait, wait, wait.
Why are we talking about herbeing white?
How is that relevant here?
Right, sometimes it could be ifit's a racial issue, but then
they would insert it intonon-racial issues and so like.
Why are we saying the wordwhite as if it's evil?

(01:55:48):
Right, as if it's bad.
We're saying the word woman asif it's bad?
Right, like.
What are you guys doing?
Snap out of it, snap out of it.
As progressives, as people onthe left, we're supposed to be
for everybody, right?
We're not supposed to be foreverybody, right.
We're not supposed to make thesame mistake the right wing does
.
Right wing.
Historically in this country,protected privilege of certain

(01:56:10):
people white males, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, right, yeah,
yeah, doing the exact oppositeand protecting the privileges of
minorities as opposed to whitepeople or males is not any
better.
It's right wing, in a differentdirection.

Brianna (01:56:28):
Yeah.
So, jake, I've got to tell youmy favorite jank moment of all
time was in your first debatewith Destiny, where he was
talking about somebody gettinghit in the face with a
skateboard.
And this is the most male thingI've ever seen anyone do.
And you go skateboard, gettinghit in the face with a
skateboard, that's nothing.
And I was just like, yeah,that's, that's the jank.
I know it was so over the top.
But also, like I've the otherday on pierce morgan, like you

(01:56:50):
really lost your temper at daverubin like it was a, it was a
spectacle.
Is there like I'm so tornbecause he has always been so
kind to me in every interactionI've ever had with him.
I understand there's a lot ofhistory there.
Is there any way that bridgegets rebuilt or is it just on
fire forever at this point?

Cenk (01:57:10):
No, on fire forever.

Taf (01:57:12):
Oh no, oh no.

Brianna (01:57:16):
Forever, forever fire.

Cenk (01:57:19):
Yeah, I mean, look, if he did the biggest apology the
internet's ever seen, okay, I'lllisten, right, but he told
about a dozen lies about theYoung Turks that were so
outrageous, so fabricated.
Like, when I see someone makingup things that don't even have

(01:57:39):
like a plausible well, he saidthat and maybe he meant that,
right.
Okay, alright, maybe you wantto interpret that, but when you
make up something out of wholeclause, that shows to me
overwhelming bad intent.
So those two guys I have inthat bucket are Dave Rubin and
Jimmy Dore Jimmy Dore pretendingthat we were Jimmy Dore is

(01:57:59):
terrible Mental.
So if they go, hey guys, guys,hey jane, we're so sorry, here's
the lies that we said and wedidn't, and we apologize, okay,
then oh fine, I'm having aconversation, uh, but but
otherwise no, and in terms oflike the aggression.
So there's a time and place foreverything, just like the story
I told about how, you know, Iused to get in a fight when I
was a kid, but I realized, hey,the better way is to become a

(01:58:21):
middle linebacker.
There's a time to fight whenyou're on air and Rabbi Shmuley
is saying something insane.
There's a time to be kind, etc.
When you're off air, the timeto be kind is almost always.

(01:58:42):
Very rarely somebody willmistake your kindness for
weakness and then you're goingto have to show them that's not
the case, right, right, butthere's no reason to yell at
anyone in real life.
That's crazy, right?
So that's why, like people andthen there's so many smears out
there, like, oh, you're bad toyour employees, are you crazy?
We've got people working herefor 20 years, 22 years, 15 years

(01:59:04):
, 12 years, 17 years on and on.
People don't leave becausewe're so good to our employees.
Because, why?
What am I doing this?
For, if we believe in left-wingideas of open-hearted,
open-minded.
Why wouldn't you do that foryour own employees?
Of course you do.
There's so much misinformationabout us that it's frustrating.

(01:59:29):
But yet behind the scenes, youknow, I think almost everybody
has the same reaction that youdo, brianna, and that's why,
when the Bennys of the worldcome and hit us with a howitzer
out of nowhere, we're like Benny, we were so kind to you, we
gave you so many opportunitiesand we never said to you don't
say the things that you'resaying, so that for you to then
go and say that we're notallowed to say the things we're

(01:59:52):
saying and we're hurting peopleand say all these outrageous
things about us, right?
That's why you see me getanimated sometimes.

Brianna (02:00:00):
It's not a value judgment, cenk.
I love it.
The place to lose your Temperis on Piers Morgan.
It's a circus.
That's the entire point of thatshow.
It's good entertainment.
I guess it's like I spent todaywriting emails back and forth
with Jesse Singel trying to finda way to stop being enemies
publicly.

(02:00:20):
It involves some apologies.
I'm just saying I don't know.
I think the next four years aregoing to be so tough that any
bridge building we can do ishelpful.
But you know I reallyunderstand where you're coming
from.

Cenk (02:00:33):
At the same time, yeah, it's not dave's day, ruben's
positions that I would neverspeak to.
It's him Fair enough, yeah.
And so look last things on that.
Look, we've also got to giveeach other space to be in good

(02:00:57):
faith.
That if you assume thateveryone who disagrees with you
does it in bad faith, that's notthe right way to go.
And of course there are timeswhen somebody is in bad faith
Like my original.
Co-host is Ben Manquist.
He's now the host of Turnerclassic movies.
He's a wonderful guy and hisdad was a kind and gentle soul.
Frank Banquist was the presssector for Bobby Kennedy, rand

(02:01:19):
McGovern's campaign, et cetera.
And everybody loved Frank, hisgentle soul.
He was in World War II and he'sthe guy who put the bombs in the
little missile launcher, etc.
And I said do you know if youkilled any Nazis?
He's like I don't know.
I was just trying to make sureI didn't lose my fingers, right.

(02:01:40):
But my point is point is evenfrank the kindest gentlest soul.
Well, when you're at war with anazi, you gotta fire missiles at
them.
But but don't assume that theslightest altercation is world
war ii with nazis.
Don't go to firing missilesuntil there's actual nazis on

(02:02:00):
other side, right?
So you've got to be able tomake those judgment calls and
you know I'll connect theskateboard thing to it.
Like Kyle Rittenhouse shotthose two folks One threw a
plastic bag at him and the otherone hit him with a skateboard
and I know that a lot of peoplesay, oh my God, if somebody's
hitting me with a skateboard, ofcourse I get to shoot them in
self-defense, right.

(02:02:21):
But to me no, brother, hedidn't cross the Nazi line, the
mortal line.
To me I can take a couple ofhits with a skateboard.
I don't want to end that guy'slife.
I don't want to end that guy'slife and I want people to get
there where we don't want to endeach other and sometimes take a

(02:02:44):
hit.
And it takes more courage totake a punch than to throw a
punch.

Brianna (02:02:51):
It wasn't value judgment, cenk, it was just so
macho and cute and I thought itwas really adorable.

Taf (02:02:57):
I think Taff had a couple of questions for you, so I mean
I would love to have a broaderconversation with you about the
tension between identitypolitics and class politics, but
I think it's beyond the scopeof the discussion Just for the
moment.
On what we've been talkingabout, I think that there's a
real valuable insight in theidea that sometimes we need to

(02:03:20):
go through a bit of suffering inorder to come out better on the
other end.
Earlier we were talking aboutthat tendency in the progressive
universe not to do that.
I was just reminded.
Like trigger warnings, you know,famously they don't actually
improve people's ability to readthings with resilience.
They actually make people moreupset and more emotional,

(02:03:42):
because it seems like it primespeople to be upset.
And so there's a way in which,allowing people to just sit in a
little bit of discomfort, alittle bit of suffering, they
actually grow from that and theyrealize they're stronger than
they maybe thought they did.
So, on that note, I just wantto thank you for bringing that
masculine force into politicsand that willingness to say

(02:04:05):
things and to be disagreed withand to be attacked, because we
need people who are willing toput themselves out there rather
than just go with whatever thegroup is saying, because that's
easy.

Cenk (02:04:16):
So, yeah, Well, thank you for saying that.
I appreciate it.
One of the kindest complimentsI got or most badass compliment,
let's put it that way was fromArian Foster.
So he was a legendary NFLrunning back and he's on the
left wing and I was on his showand he was talking about all the

(02:04:37):
combat that I do with the rightwing, et cetera, and he said
you're kind of the sword of theleft and I was like that's the
best compliment.
I've ever gotten, and so itsounds like a.

Brianna (02:04:49):
Game of.
Thrones thing and I love it.

Kelly (02:04:51):
Oh and the other one was Ida.

Cenk (02:04:52):
Rodriguez said you're an intellectual thug Like hell yeah
, she said the same thing aboutAnna, my co-host, anna Gasperi
right, and I love that.
I love being an intellectualthug, I love being the sort of
the left, but if you're going todo that, you're going to get
hit with a couple of skateboardsand that's it.

Brianna (02:05:10):
I think of you more as like a tiger at the zoo, and you
never know.
When you see the tiger, hecould just be hanging out or he
could be eating someone and yousomeone, and you just never know
.
It's jank, you're gonna go.

Cenk (02:05:25):
You're not domesticated, not quite domesticated, that's
true, that's true.
I'm definitely not domesticatedbecause I do not obey and so
internally we joke about uh,peers jank and lex jank, yeah,
so on, peers, I, I fight becausethey they talk over me and what
.
This is a very common tactic ofthe right.
They'll just monopolize thetime and then they'll say

(02:05:46):
outrageous things and won't letyou respond.
So that's not going to happenon my watch.
You're not going to talk overme, I'm going to talk over you.
Okay, but in situations wherepeople are not doing that and
they're just having calm,rational discourse, I never yell
Right, never.
So when I was on lex friedman'sshow and we did a four-hour
discussion and people were likewhoa, I don't know, you have a

(02:06:08):
calm discourse and look at theseinteresting intellectual points
he's making about corporatismversus capitalism.
Yeah, if someone just asked mea normal question and then lets
you respond, we're gonna have anadult conversation.
That's beautiful and that'swhat I prefer.
But if you poke the tiger,you're going to get the tiger.

Brianna (02:06:27):
So let me ask you one more question before we go.
Cenk.
One of the reasons all of us onDollcast my life was much
better before I came out aspublicly trans.
It is much worse now in manyways.
Jk Rowling attacked me a fewdays ago.
It's led to ungodly harassment.
I got people like there is aproject to degrade me that has a

(02:06:49):
cost.
But you know, at the same time,I think the reason we're all
doing this is we realize, liketrans rights are not going to
survive on this course, liketrans rights have always
expanded from the middle Intalking to a broad audience.
It seems like this last decadeof being in the fringe and
trying to push it towards thefringe, it seems like there's

(02:07:11):
been a really big backlash.
So I guess I have two questions, like one do you think that
what we're trying to do on thisshow your analysis as a
political professional?
Like is this the right tacticfor the trans movement?
Real conversations across thespectrum, open, honest, more
centrist.
Is this the right move?

(02:07:31):
And if you were in charge ofthe trans movement tomorrow,
like let's pretend it's thatonion headline, like man put in
charge of struggling feministmovement, let's just say trans
people elect Cenk as thepresident of trans rights.
What would you do specifically?
What would your top priority do?
What would you change about ourmovement to get it back on

(02:07:53):
course?

Cenk (02:07:55):
Yeah.
So first of all, of course, youguys are doing the right thing.
I mean, at a bare minimum, justto represent the diversity of
thought within the transcommunity has to be a good thing
.
If people say, no, we don'twant diversity of thought, some
trans people should shut up.
That's crazy, that's nuts.

Brianna (02:08:14):
We get that, we get that.

Cenk (02:08:17):
So I love that you guys are not obeying and I love that
you're putting out a perspectivethat a lot of people in the
trans community agree with, andthen the product of these
discussions centrist, left,whatever else it might be is
going to get us to the rightanswer eventually.
If you don't have thoseconversations, you never get to
the right place.
So I think you guys are doingan incredible job here, a great

(02:08:41):
service not just for the transcommunity but for open-minded
conversations period.
So thank you for that.
And then in terms of thequestion you asked about what
would I do if I was in charge ofthe trans community, I agree
funny thought.
But by the way, non-transpeople are also allowed to have
opinions on that.

(02:09:01):
Sure, oh yeah, totally.
And so sometimes people willsay men shouldn't be allowed to
have an opinion about abortion.

Kelly (02:09:09):
No.

Brianna (02:09:09):
I don't think we're running this so well.
Jake, we could use all the helpwe can get.

Cenk (02:09:16):
No, we're all allowed to have opinions about everything,
right, yeah.
And so what I would say is, asI'm doing on the right wing
shows, I would say draw the lineon professional sports, right,
and say I get it.
The American people are notthere yet.
And if you want to make thatargument, keep making a moral,
persuasive, ideological argument, while acknowledging that

(02:09:39):
you're you haven't won yet Righton that issue.
I would say on constitutionalrights, they are non-negotiable.
We're either all 100% Americanor we're not.
Is the Constitution?
Real or is it not real?
If the Constitution is real andwe believe it, then we all have
100% same rights.
So we never give an inch onthat.
Now then, when you get into theissues that are more in the

(02:10:01):
middle ground on that.
Now then, when you get into theissues that are more in the
middle ground look, I think that, as I said in the beginning of
the show, that trans girlsshould be able to compete in
high school sports, because,even if they want trigonometry,
they're like what if yourdaughter came in second in
cross-country because of it?
I was like, wow, she'll neverbe second in anything in life.

(02:10:23):
Like no, life is hard.
And so so what, she came insecond in cross, that's not the
end of the world.
Checking millions of kids'genitalia is 10,000 times worse.
Right, that's my opinion and Iwould fight for that.
But if we lost on that in someplaces, I wouldn't then push
everyone else away and saythey're Nazis and evil and
racist, transphobic.

(02:10:44):
I would say that's okay, we'llcome back.
We'll come back and have thatdebate another time, and I've
already lived through this, guys.
We lived through it during gaymarriage, right.
So in that fight, we never gaveground because it was a core
constitutional right, right.
But we also spoke otherpeople's language in order to
win them over, instead ofpushing them out.
What we would say is look, ifyou had a relationship that your

(02:11:11):
parents didn't approve of, allright, I've already triggered in
people's minds oh yeah, yeah, Ihad a relationship my parents
didn't approve of.
That's probably happened for Idon't know 60, 70% of people,
right?
Would you want them to be ableto block that relationship?
People go, no, no, right, Iguess I wouldn't, right.
And so you start to talk theirlanguage and you say and what I

(02:11:32):
say to them is guys, imaginethat you were born biologically
male in Nebraska, but you feelthat you're a woman, right?
Yeah, do you know what kind ofcourage it takes to come out and
say that in the middle ofNebraska?
Yeah, and you respect thatcourage.

(02:11:53):
Do you think that they're doingit willy-nilly just because
they feel like it?
Or that might be something thatis so irresistible, such a core
part of their identity, thatthey have the enormous courage
to come out and say it and makea change in their lives.
So now I'm talking aboutcourage, a thing that they
respect, honor, things that theyrespect, right and so, and

(02:12:16):
saying guys, what, okay, so nowthey got this crazy thing that
gender doesn't exist.
And you guys are all lying.
They're like this is the rightwings ideology, right or not the
all right wing, but someportion of the right wing.
They're all lying and they justmake it up.

Brianna (02:12:32):
We're really committed to it.
We're really committed.

Cenk (02:12:36):
You've committed all the way right.
I'm like guys, did it everoccur to you that maybe what's
in your head isn't in their head, that there's something else in
their head and they're reactingto that right?
So, as you're fighting for notmoving on constitutional rights
and making sure everybody'streated with equality and
justice, you're also buildingbridges so you could win those

(02:12:57):
arguments later.
And, like I said, we alreadydid this for gay marriage.
So there is a winning formula.
Let's use the winning formula,build those bridges and start to
share with the other side,rather than pushing the other
side away, so they can begin torelate to us, Because if they
don't relate to us, they'llnever want to fight for you.
They'll always want to put yououtside the wagons.

(02:13:19):
But the minute you get them tothink that you might be inside
the wagons, that's when theright wing gets triggered to we
protect.
That's right.

Brianna (02:13:29):
And I know this because I was the first person to
transition at the University ofMississippi and there's an
argument you can make to rightwingers, which is it's my body.
This is how I feel mostcomfortable.
Give me the freedom to do whatI want and they will have your
back on that.
There's an argument that genderdoesn't exist and your daughter

(02:13:49):
needs to see penises in thelocker room, and if you have an
issue with that, it's oppressionand you're going to be referred
to as a birthing person fromnow on.
They're going to freak outabout that.
So there's just, I think, somuch of this it's.
The tone is just completely offand the policies we're pursuing

(02:14:09):
are not important.
Taff, you said this.
I think it's a famous quote.
I'm going to repeat it everyday.
I don't need anyone to believethat I'm a woman.
I just need them to give mecontrol over my own body and to
respect those decisions, andthat's it.
And the rest is Gonna work itout, because no matter where I
go in life, people call me she,which is all I need.

Cenk (02:14:29):
so yeah, Look.
I'll end on a last couplethings here.
First of all, a hundred percentagree with yeah.
I just said and Look, Anna'snow infamous tweet is Anna's now
infamous tweet is lied about inretrospect.
You can actually read the tweetright.
So she didn't say I don't wantanyone called a birthing person.

(02:14:52):
She said if you want to becalled a birthing person, I
respect that right, but I'd liketo be called a woman and I'm
hoping that you respect that.
And I never talked to a normie,someone who is not in politics,
who thought that there wasanything but the most obvious
thing they have ever seen.
And so how is it that the leftsays no, you're not allowed to

(02:15:16):
be called a woman, or you're noteven allowed to request that,
Because if you request that,that you're feeding a right wing
narrative or something alongthose lines no, they're not
respected pronouns it's crazy.

Taf (02:15:29):
Well, that's the thing, brianna, is that, like, the
rights have to go two ways.
Yes, I think it's totallylegitimate to be like I would
prefer to be called a woman, I'dprefer to be called she, her,
but then you also have torespect that other people might
say I would prefer not to becalled she, her, but then you
also have to respect that otherpeople might say I would prefer
not to be called a birthingperson, right, and if you have a
world where people can makethose requests of people and you

(02:15:51):
can choose to honor it, it hasto go both ways and I think we
lose people as soon as itbecomes only about our feelings
and our rights and not aboutanyone else's.
This is just something that wekeep hitting on on.
The Dahlcast is mutual respectfor people's rights.

Cenk (02:16:08):
I love it.
That's exactly right.
So let's get back to commonground.
Let's get back to uniting as acountry, and if we unite as a
country, then all of us willseem inside the wagons and,
instead of constantly fightingone another, we'll begin to
protect one another.
And not only will that help allAmericans, but the two groups
of Americans that will help themost is trans and Muslim

(02:16:31):
Americans.
So, please, let's expand thewagons.
Bring everybody in.
Stop pushing people out.

Brianna (02:16:38):
I love it.
Well, cenk, thank you so muchfor being here and, on a
personal note, like thank youfor all the years of work we've
done together.
If I made a list of the fivepeople I think have the most
integrity that I've met throughmy whole career and I know a lot
of people I'm pretty well knownyou would really be at the top

(02:16:58):
of that list and it I reallywish more people knew who you
are, who is a very sweet personwho just gives and gives and
gives to everyone in sight andjust is beaten up constantly on
the internet.
It is hard to watch and youknow, I just I hope people are

(02:17:19):
watching this interview todayand get to see the real you,
because, because it's who youare behind the scenes.

Cenk (02:17:25):
Thank you so much.
Everybody Really appreciate it.
Thank you for doing this showand thank you for having me on.

Schyler (02:17:31):
We'll talk again soon.
Thank you for coming on.

Brianna (02:17:34):
All right, all right, we move from stage.
I think that was good contentand I'm telling you, the show is
going to be huge.

Taf (02:17:44):
I'm telling y'all the show is going to be huge, I'm telling
you, I think you're right.
I think you're right, yeah, Ithink it's a real hunger Because
, like, there's insane people,right, and you know, there's
TERFs and there's gendercritical people who are going to
attack you, brianna, foranything you say, even like the
most innocuous, like, oh, we'rejust like anyone else, we like

(02:18:05):
doing our hair Somehow.
That's a story, right, that'sridiculous.
And but then there's so manynormal people who just want to
have good conversations and theydon't have crazy opinions, they
don't think that, like you know, not calling someone like
Zeezer is violence, right.

(02:18:25):
There's just normal people outthere and those people, like
Cenk, are interested in havingthese connections.

Schyler (02:18:32):
Can we do the milkmaid discourse?
Yes, yes.
Yes, oh, my God, all right, weare still recording, and Okay,
perfect, yeah, so conversationslike this always make me think
about you know how we frameourselves publicly, like what we
choose to share and why.

(02:18:52):
So, like you know, in that vein, I honestly couldn't resist to
bring up this milkmaid dressdrama.
Have you all seen it that like,yes with dress, yes, pose, and
now there's like a whole debateon like what's modest and what's
not tough.

Brianna (02:19:11):
This was your, your topic.

Taf (02:19:13):
I think you've got to introduce it, girls oh yeah, I
mean people have just beentalking on twitter about this
dress.
It's kind of like I don, Idon't know, it's sexy.
It shows off your boobs, itshows off your legs.
I think it's notable becauseit's maybe like the first
women's clothing item to bemarketed entirely towards like

(02:19:34):
right-wing internet anons on theinternet, like you didn't know
that the title of the dress islike the raw milkmaid dress and
it's just like it's all likemommy milkers and I don't know
hot farm lady, trad wife things.
And so there's been lots ofdrama about it because, on one

(02:19:55):
hand, it's like gratuitousmarketing and it's, quite
frankly, is not like the highestquality dress as well.
You know, I'm looking at it.
It looks like really thinmaterial and it's like priced
really expensively, um, but atthe same time I do think it's
like it doesn't look badnecessarily, like if it was 50 I

(02:20:16):
would be like sure, like Iwould potentially buy that, um,
and I think, I think, yeah, Ithink I have, I own dresses
which look very similar.
They're just like.
I think much better.
Um, it's really, it's kind oflike a dupe of this, like
reformation.
I think it's reformation dress.
Uh, oh, no, it's notreformation, it's house of CB.
It looks like a dupe of thishouse of CB dress, which I love.

(02:20:45):
It went like super viral causeit is just gorgeous and it's
like pretty well-made, and so Ireally don't think the problem
is like how the dress looksexactly.
There's like all of these otherproblems, and so people get
like locked into these cycles ofarguments.
This happens like all the timeon every issue.
Yep, we're like really they'rearguing about like one thing,
but it's really not about that,and so I feel like people have

(02:21:07):
had this instinct to be like oh,it's an ugly dress, and even
like I kind of have the instinctto say that um, but what I
really mean is like it's uglyfor the price and like the
marketing is ridiculous and likeI can't imagine an actual woman
being like this is a greatdress that I like want to buy.
It's like the kind of thing formen to be like.
You know, this is what womenshould dress like.

(02:21:28):
It's like sexy and whatnot, soit's crazy, but I don't know
what are your takes on it?

Schyler (02:21:33):
kind, of like.
To me it was an interesting.
When I was looking at the dressI was like this really teases
that boundary of liketraditional, but with, you know,
a little bit of modern, likemodern touches on it like the
low cut what is?

Brianna (02:21:48):
it is definitely feminine.
What's what's modern about it,though?
Like it's got a corset built in.

Schyler (02:21:54):
In a really traditional dress like that I don't.
It wouldn't be so low andexposing like that upper part of
the chest, it would be so muchmore modest and like I mean, it
would still have that flowy andlike lacy aesthetic.
But it's like you took the bestelements of victoria's secret
and merge them with like tradwife vibes, like cottagecore

(02:22:16):
vibes, and that's what made thisdress and this one was like wow
, this is so interesting and itmade me think about how they're
trying to appeal to those likethose types of aesthetics that
are traditional but also likeplay to the, to the I don't know
the landscape of social mediaand just like how you get

(02:22:36):
attention and like what's gonnasell.
And so it just like I was likebecause you know, in real life I
just can't see the people inthe 1800s wearing this no, but
here it is not.

Taf (02:22:47):
Yeah, yeah, like it's not actually trash.
There's an amazing, no sagepervert tweet where he's like
they should just do only fans.
It'd be more honest than this.
And it gets trotted outwhenever a woman is like doing
something gratuitous on theinside, which which is obviously
sexualizing herself, but shesort of pretends that it's not.
This is like that, where it'slike you are sexualizing

(02:23:09):
yourself and I think that's okay.
You should sexualize yourself,but it's not trad at all.
Just enjoy being a sexy, prettylady.

Brianna (02:23:19):
Okay, so I have many thoughts.

Kelly (02:23:20):
I have no discourse, though, because isn't that where
it all started was if, liketrad, wives show their toes or
not?

Brianna (02:23:27):
oh, I don't know.
I don't know this.
What is this?

Taf (02:23:30):
wait, I'm looking at the original photo taft set in the
group chat and it was like oh,real trad wives would not show
their toes oh, I mean, I think Imight have just sent like some
sort of screenshot about it, butyes, I think that, like one of
the takes maybe is that, likeyou know, real tradwives
wouldn't do this, and it's likeit's basically accurate.

(02:23:51):
Like you know, real tradwives,you know they're like a stocky
woman who's birthed like sixchildren and works on the farm
and she's like hard as nails andshe's not, you know, a model
with G cup breasts.
So you know not, I am great tobe a model g-cup breasts, but um
sure it's not trad.

Brianna (02:24:08):
Yeah I mean what I see when I look at this, when I see,
when I look at this dress, islike it's cut so it's way over
on the shoulder, so you're gonnahave to wear a strapless bra
with it, which is notcomfortable.
I'm sorry, like I will doanything to avoid that.
So, like a, this is not like adress that you just throw on.
This is a whole look thatyou're going for and you're

(02:24:29):
going to be suffering all daybecause of it.
And when I look at this dress,it's like it, the fabric of it
looks so insanely cheap, socheap, and it's not that like.
I'm not like if you have largeboobs, like more power to you,
but it's just like.
I'm thinking about this assomeone who, like probably

(02:24:51):
understands a little bit moreabout the aesthetic and what is
required to look like that thanmost men, and I'm just like this
is this.
It's trashy.
It's not trashy because of herbody, it's trashy because the
quality of the dress is not atthe quality of her makeup and
hair and beauty to like live upto that level.

(02:25:15):
Does that kind of make sense toy'all?

Taf (02:25:18):
yeah, well, okay, yeah, maybe you're saying, tell me if
I'm getting this.
Yeah, like, um, she's gorgeousand she, uh, she wears the dress
.
But I'll look another woman,the dress is gonna wear her and
it's like not gonna work right,yes, 100, I think so.
I think so because it's just,at the end of the day, like it's

(02:25:39):
a dress which is likedelivering on a fantasy that is
like is not really real.
I mean, the whole trad thing islike kind of a fantasy.
It's like a hollywood, you know,version of what the 1950s
looked like and just, yeah, it'sjust, it's not like practical,
it's not like a real thing,which is why, of course, we met
marketed towards men who likedon't really understand this,

(02:26:00):
yeah, or or models, like youknow, I think there's like some
model that I saw who was like Iwould wear this dress and it
would look good, and it's like,yeah, you would, because you're
like this gorgeous supermodel,you can get away with this, but,
um sure, yeah, not for mostwomen well, yeah, and it's one
thing to wear it for like takingpictures and like putting out

(02:26:22):
an aesthetic and make somethinglook like this way.

Schyler (02:26:25):
I'm not going to pick this dress out of my closet and
go oh yeah, I'm going to wearthis out on my farm for like
anything I'm doing Like I'm notgoing to wear this in real life
and practical day in, day out,it's so cleavage-y.

Brianna (02:26:36):
I wouldn't wear this anywhere.
To be honest with you, I don'tknow what's crazy about it.

Kelly (02:26:43):
There's nothing bad taste , because I could see myself,
maybe not with the shoes, maybeI would do something a little
more casual than heels, but Ifeel like you could pull this
off.
And I mean, I know, brie, youwere saying you had to wear a
strapless bra, but if it's notsuper see-through, you could
probably get away with goingbra-free.

Taf (02:27:00):
Well, also the corset.
I don't know how good thecorset is, but of course it will
help you with this, and that'strue.
The dress that I have, which isagain very similar, it also has
a corset, but the corset islike what provides the support
so you actually, like don'tnecessarily need a bra, um, so,
yeah, it doesn't look likethere's any structure there.
Look at that.
No, yeah, I don't know.

(02:27:21):
Again, it's like it's a duperight which is like I don't know
, it's not that original of adress.
It doesn't really mean to thedesigner.
I'm sure she like worked hardon it, but, um, no, it's, I
don't know.
I agree, kelly, that like Iwould wear this if it was like
50, um, and I don't think theactual cut is like that ugly.

(02:27:47):
I like dresses which are likesexy and I have large breasts,
so like that works, but it isjust like everything surrounding
it which I find sort of likeostentatious.

Schyler (02:27:59):
Yeah, and I have to wonder, like, if you're wearing
this and you go to a party, areyou signaling something about
your political beliefs?

Taf (02:28:09):
absolutely, did you guys see like the barbara nationalism
discourse?
No, okay, I think I'm just inlike totally different twitter
spheres sometimes.
But, like you, a month back inNovember, people were discussing
barber jackets which are likethis British brand.

(02:28:30):
They do like kind of likecountry jackets and they people
are saying like it's a symbol oflike Britain and like kind of
like British nationalism andBritish character, kind of like
British nationalism and Britishcharacter.
And so I do think that likethere are clothes that you can
totally wear, that withincertain circles, especially like
right-wing circles, they telllike something about your

(02:28:51):
politics.
So I'm very-.

Brianna (02:28:55):
You know what I think this comes Taff, did you see
this, cause I know you're intofashion too Did you see?
It was in Vogue?
We covered this on Rocket.
It was in Vogue like threeyears ago and the headline was
like boobs are over, and it wasthis move away from cleavage
itself as being like a Stavissymbol or something you showed

(02:29:16):
that was considered attractive.
And I've always felt really tornon this because for me're, if
you're asking what I think ispersonally more pretty, I think
small boobs are just that's whatlooks pretty to me.
Well, you can say that I just Ithink like that looks more
elegant to me, but I also it'slike I've got friends of mine

(02:29:39):
and they just are large chested.
They didn't ask to be born thatway and it's like just
everything makes them look thatway because they're super skinny
and they've got big boobs rightand I think like it's uh,
they've told me stories of whatit's like to like be at work and
trying to wear like big, heavyjackets over it to hide it.
And I kind of don't like theother side of it, where, you

(02:30:02):
know, big boobs or cleavage isconsidered like inherently
slutty or sexual, because Ithink like there's some tops
like that, just depending onwhat your boobs look like.
That's just what it's going tobe.
So I don't know.
I feel like we're going so hardon this discourse.
It's just like I think it's adouble-edged sword both ways

(02:30:23):
that that makes sense, I totallyagree.

Taf (02:30:26):
Um, so, like I have breast implants and there are like
certain pieces of clothing thatI feel like uncomfortable
wearing because I think they'relike they make my breasts look
like too big and I think thatthere's like it is a challenge
to dress around large breasts,not just because of that, but

(02:30:48):
also like lots of clothing isjust not made for it and so
it'll look, it'll make you looklike fat because it like hangs
off a certain way.
It makes like, it makes it looklike your belly is like
extended.
Um, so it's like a massive pain, if you have big boobs, to
dress in a way that is likeconservative, that isn't like
showing off your chest and thatlike actually makes you look

(02:31:11):
good.
So it's like not really anenviable position.
If you're a woman with likelarger breasts who really
doesn't want to like sexualizeherself, you know, if you do
want to sexualize yourself,awesome, there's.
It's easier to do that if youhave large breasts, absolutely.
But no, it's like hard.

(02:31:33):
So yeah, and like definitelysucks.

Schyler (02:31:36):
I see all those things I'm like, those are all
positives for me, aside fromthat last one you listed about
like looking attractive orwhatever I'm like, I don't mind
it.
Like same for me.
Like I have breast implants andI like I mean I love it, I can
like show it off and like,especially for that male
attention, I have no problem atall.
And so like I'm like work withyour assets but also at the same

(02:32:00):
time I'm wearing a Christmassweater today because it's the
holidays and I have no problemlike just throwing on a sweater
or something that just kind oftakes out that you know,
projection of the mid region andmakes it like look a little bit
, you know, less sexualized,because you know there are times
where that's appropriate andthere's times where it's not.
And it's like, I don't know, Ifeel like there's like I don't

(02:32:21):
know, I feel like there's Idon't feel like it's that hard
to, you know, work around largebreasts, but maybe that's just
do you think guys really feelthat way?

Brianna (02:32:29):
like I guess, kelly, I'd ask you because you kind of
understand only fans more than Ido like are not, like they're
all guys into big boobs.
Or because I think, like when Ithink about what's pretty about
women, like being very thin andperbreasted, like that, to me
that's really really beautiful.
Like are there not guys thatare really into that?

Kelly (02:32:51):
I mean, I think there's just like boob guys, and then I
think there's like butt guys.
Right, like everyone's justinto something different, but I
think everyone typically likesboth.

Taf (02:32:59):
It's just there's a preference for one or the other
yeah, totally in fact, like richmen actually prefer smaller
boobs, um.
So we've, like you know, surveydata on this and it seems like
poorer men are more interestedin like this is interesting um,
gender, uh dysmorphia.

(02:33:22):
And rich men are moreinterested in like signals of
youth.
So, yeah, it seems like guyswho lower on the economic totem
pole they're interested in likebig butts and big boobs, um, but
then guys who are wealthier,they they tend to like look for
signals of youth and likesometimes like thinness and sort

(02:33:42):
of like smallness can be asignal of youth.
So it just like it seems likedifferent people fall into
different like sexual modes, um,and like different things.
And I, I'm definitely I fallinto like the, I like very
curvaceous women, um, but that'snot like every man or every,
you know, female attractedperson likes that.

(02:34:04):
So, yeah, I think it justvaries between people.

Schyler (02:34:08):
That's interesting.
I feel like the signals ofyouthfulness.
I feel like are we really likeso the curvature, or like having
bigger breasts is associatedwith not being as youthful?
Because I feel like that really, oh, I just didn't.
I mean, okay, I as youthful.
Because I feel like that really, oh, I just didn't.
I mean, okay, I don't knowRight.

Taf (02:34:29):
And she's got like mommy milkers and like those wide like
birthing hips.
That's like mommy milkers.
Yeah, we're breaking the thedoll cast barrier Same with the
milkers.
But yeah, like the kind ofmilfy look is like we're
breaking the doll cast barrierSame with the milkers, but yeah,
like the kind of milfy look islike, you know, large breasts,
large butt, very curvaceous, andthen there's like kind of like

(02:34:52):
a more youthful look which islike generally like daintier and
like thinner.
So, yeah, I mean now in likepractice, does you know, having
like big boobs make you lookolder?
Not necessarily, right.
It's just that like there'sprobably some sort of
psychological thing that'shappening within people where

(02:35:14):
it's like there's like a cost interms of like time in order to
figure out if your partner islike male or female, and so,
like some Beatles they'll havelike sex with like the males,
like two males will have sexwith each other.
It's not because they're gay,they just like can't tell at all
if the beetle they're havingsex with as a boy or girl.
Yeah, very androgynous society.

(02:35:35):
And so like they just likedon't engage in this like
calculation, that's gonna berape in great britain very soon.
Oh god, not good, yeah, but, um,sorry and so, but like humans,
we do do this calculation and so, like, having big breasts is
like a indicator of likefemininity and that can be like

(02:35:58):
an indicator of like fertility.
Um, and so I think I've heardit's been a long time since I
like looked into this but, likewealthier men, they can rely on
other signals of like male andfemale better, and so they have
like more incentive to look forlike youth infertility.
I don't know like how true thatis.
I'm you know I'm recountingthis like secondhand, but I

(02:36:20):
think that was like theexplanation, vaguely, that I
heard for this.

Brianna (02:36:25):
How did?
How did you all decide how bigto go?
Because I remember like firstof all I got like no, this is
before I really understoodprogesterone and how to go.
So like I got very littlebreast development and I was
ultra marathoning at the time.
So like not a lot ofdevelopment there and it was
really hard for me Like I willnever forget.

(02:36:46):
The night before I got mybreast augmentation I thought
about going C-cup and I had agood friend of mine who had
really good taste, a cis woman.
She pulled me aside and shegoes Bree.
I'm just flat out going to tellyou this is way out of
proportion to your body.
It looks trashy, do not do this, go smaller.
And I was like okay, and I wentin the next day and I got my

(02:37:09):
breast augmentation and I thankJesus every day that she pulled
me aside and did that because itwas such a good call.
Like how did y'all, did youtalk to friends that you trusted
?

Schyler (02:37:24):
Or how did you kind of decide that, yeah, very similar.
Yeah, I talked to a couple offriends and you know it was like
, well, what would you think?
And I mean, a lot of them weresimilar recommendation, like go
smaller.
But I kind of was like thinkingthrough my, my personal
philosophy on this, and I waslike, could I regret going too
small?
And for some reason, that wassort of the theme in my mind was

(02:37:45):
like I'd want to, I'd rather golarger than smaller, and the
one thing I did take away,though, was, um, not to go too
big, and so I ended up justasking my surgeon, like, can you
just, you know, feel out whatyou think looks the best in
terms of balancing myproportions to my body so that
it doesn't look unnatural?

(02:38:06):
Because that was really mymotivation was just to look
natural.
Your proportions look great,you're great.
Yeah, thank you, and I wantedit to really frame in my
shoulders so they didn't standout that much, and that was.
And well, yeah, that's what hedid.
He didn't go as big as we hadplanned, because he saw on the
surgery table, he was like it's,this isn't going to work as
well as I thought.

(02:38:27):
We're going to go just a littlebit smaller than what we had
planned, and I was reallygrateful for that.

Taf (02:38:33):
That makes sense.

Kelly (02:38:36):
What about you, Kelly, to like family or friends about
like the sizing?
I kind of just like knew Iwanted to go for like as big as
I could, at least initially, andthen, yeah, once you kind of
get to a certain size though,it's kind of hard to go smaller.
So I kind of stayed at likethat C range.
I never quite got to a D.
Yeah, I mean I'm happy withthat size.

(02:39:00):
I couldn't imagine likesometimes I think I would have
been happier a little bitsmaller.
I kind of had the samephilosophy that you had Sky,
where I was reading online a lotthat a lot of women regret not
going bigger and they haveregret, yeah, Interesting.
So I didn't want to be thatperson.
So.
But I'm pretty happy with thesize of my boobs.
I wanted them to be kind of onthe larger size, so I I'm happy

(02:39:23):
do you know something?
they get in the way if you'rerunning or whatever no, no, if
you have a sports bra on, not atall I.

Taf (02:39:29):
I always wear a sports bra, though, if I go for like a
locker and right, yeah, I havethis like super powerful sports
bra which I use for jump ropingum, and it works, works like a
charm.
But I I heard the same thingthat, like most people regret um
not going slightly bigger.
So I just like, I totally justlike consulted the surgeon and

(02:39:53):
was like you know what's gonnawork, um, and then I went just
like a little bit on the upperend of his recommendation range
and, yeah, I'm totally happywith it.
I do think I think sometimesthey're like too big for me, um,
just like certain like clothing, I'm like, ah, this is like you
know, I feel like dressed downor I feel like, oh god, I want

(02:40:14):
to like wear, like you know, ajacket to this thing, because
I'm wearing a dress which liketotally shows them, totally
shows them off.
So I do get that, but it's also, I think, 90% of the time.
I'm like this is good.
Also, in terms of like shape, Ithink going bigger and like
proportion-wise really worked,especially like when I'm not

(02:40:35):
wearing clothes.
So I'm very happy about that.
I think if I were to go smaller, it would not like fit my frame
properly.
So I think I ended up goingwith exactly what I was looking
for.

Brianna (02:40:48):
Yeah, I think it's just my perspective.
I think as you get older, likeyou know, for most women, as
they've like given birth, youknow so your breasts get bigger
when you're lactating and all ofthat like large breasts are a
sign of having been throughchildbirth, right.
So I think, like if you'retalking about like looking
younger, I think you know smallbreasts are kind of inherently

(02:41:11):
tied to that a little bit yeah,and if you have bigger breasts,
you can wear the raw milkmaiddress so where's that?

Schyler (02:41:20):
everyone loves.
Oh my god, speaking of thatmilkmaid dress, do we feel like
someone like um?
You know the recent buzz aroundlily phillips.
Do we think she could wear this?

Taf (02:41:39):
oh my god, let's talk about as long as that is a hundred
men absolutely crazy.

Schyler (02:41:46):
I know.
Just the whole, the whole thingit's like it honestly is kind
of depressing to me in a way.
You know, I wish I could belike more sex positive about
this.
But a hundred guys like, oh youknow, not only is that, what
damage is that going to do toyour body, like holy crap, I
can't imagine how she would feelphysically after that, but just

(02:42:08):
emotionally too, I'm like Ifeel like that would just I
don't know, I, I don't even wantto go there because of just
what it would do to yourself-esteem, just like can we
give people a background of whatwe're talking about here, just
so they can know?
yeah, yeah, so we're.
We're talking about the, thelily phillips um documentary

(02:42:29):
that was she made with um joshpeters.
It was posted to youtube notthat long ago and it was all
about her hooking up with ahundred guys in one night, um
for content that she could postto her only fans, um.
And so she did a wholedocumentary about this,
following her from the weeksbefore all the way through to
the night of and a little bitafterwards.

Lily (02:42:50):
It's not like just having sex with someone, yeah yeah,
just one in, one out Like itfeels intense.

Kelly (02:42:58):
Like more intense than you thought it might, definitely
.
Sorry, it's okay, just take aseat.
Yeah, one minute.
Like more intense than youthought it might Definitely?
Oh no, sorry, it's okay, justtake it easy.
Yeah, one minute.
I think I was well.

Lily (02:43:23):
You know, when I talked to you last I was not nervous.
It was like the day before Iwas like, oh, I'm so nervous,
but it was good.
It was more.
I guess the interactionsweren't like I'd have to stop
them early and like you'd haveto stand on business and be like
I'm so sorry you got to go andlike the awkward interaction of,
like you feeling pressure tohave to make them come if, like

(02:43:47):
you, haven't spent enough timewith them, and feeling like in
terms of, like, how she felt andwhat the logistics were like,
bringing in all these guys, um,and just kind of like
documenting her feelingsthroughout this whole process,
um, and so there are a lot ofreactions.

Schyler (02:44:04):
There have been a ton of reactions to this actually,
um, a lot of strong feelings anda lot of people condemning it
actually, um, and saying, likethese are the problems of what's
happened with society thesedays in terms of, you know, the
issue of there being just theone model of consent is all that
matters, and what happens toyeah, to people when.

(02:44:26):
Okay, if that's all thatmatters, then there's nothing
wrong with this.
But everyone kind of sees thatnow there is a little bit of
something wrong with this.

Brianna (02:44:36):
Well, okay, so I have.
I don't want to be accused ofbeing sex negatives.
I will just remind everyonewhen I ran for Congress, I
literally ran on like I thinksex work should be legal.
I think it just does so muchdamage pushing all of this
underground.
But just because somethingshould be legal and a woman
should have the right to make upher own mind about her

(02:44:57):
profession, that doesn't meansex work is always a good
decision or it's negative.
And you know, what I see is ageneration of young women that
are told like there's a reallyeasy way to sexualize yourself
get a ton of attention, get aton of money on onlyfans and I
think it's true that some womenare just so beautiful that they

(02:45:20):
are going to do very well onthat and it's a good economic
decision.
But at the same time, I wish wecould have like a a more open
discussion about what like thepotential, what the entire range
of these choices does to you.
Um, I think the video ofwatching her after the fact,
like she looked like she'd beento war, like it was really

(02:45:41):
difficult to see and I'm notsaying that as someone that's
like oh, these women out therewhoring themselves around, like
let's judge them.
It's like you know.
Can we actually talk about this?
Does that make sense to y'all?
Do you know where I'm comingfrom?

Schyler (02:45:56):
Yeah, well, I think there's a huge difference
between someone who's puttingout this event of a hundred men
in 24 hours versus making onlyfans content, or even being a
porn star and doing, like, smallscale shoots, um, or even large
scale shoots, but it's, it'snot the same thing as promoting
a hundred guys in a night, likeit's just this whole new level

(02:46:19):
of um, the amount of, well, justokay.
Yeah, it's a different categoryin my view.

Kelly (02:46:25):
Yeah, I feel like I'm getting more sex negative the
older I get, really, and it kindof sucks that we're even
talking about this, because Ifeel like we're giving her
exactly like what she wanted,which is attention and just
emotion, because this is justinevitably going to make her
more money, which I know is likethe goal.
But yeah, I don't know assomeone that's like in sex work

(02:46:46):
to a degree, it's just like Idon't wish I was here, like
still doing this.
Like I have so many regretsabout starting it and I feel
like that's a majority of thewomen in the industry that have
been doing it for as long as Ihave, but you kind of just feel
like you're doing it stillbecause you already started, so
I stopped.
Um, yeah, I don't know.

(02:47:11):
It just makes me really sadbecause I I think it's very
clear that at the end of the day, like this is all about money
and clout or both one of the twoUm, and I just feel bad for her
.
I just can't imagine like thepsychological or the emotional
damage after doing somethinglike that.
Like I know, like people like toact like oh, be sex positive,
like women as long as theyconsent, like it it'll, it'll
have no effect on anyone.
Women can have like a sex lifewith like multiple men and hook

(02:47:35):
up with a ton of differentpeople and be totally fine, but
I just don't.
That's not my experience,that's not the experience I've
seen of all the girls that werehooking up with tons of guys in
college and how it affected themI don't know.
I think we need to have adeeper conversation at some
point and admit that sex for menand women is different and I

(02:47:55):
think it affects us differently.
And I'm not saying there aren'tan outlier here or there of
women.
Maybe there are some girls thatjust love for lack of a better
word, like being hoarse, and itjust doesn't affect them.
But I think for a majority likethat's just not the case, right
?
What do you guys agree?

Brianna (02:48:10):
I mean exactly right yeah, I would love to know what,
when you talk about thedownsides for you, what, what
are those?
What have you experienced?
What is that like?

Kelly (02:48:21):
um, you know it's it's hard to talk about because I
don't want people to like use itagainst me almost when I I feel
like I like show like thevulnerability of that stuff.
Um, I think it's just thatpeople having access to what I
look like and just my body andum just having people like pick
it apart and like seeing theconstant, like the dialogue of

(02:48:44):
that, I think it's also justlike how your reputation gets
affected, just know, because youknow you can like know these
things at like 18, but then youknow you hit like 25 and I just
feel like your perspective on alot of those things changes.
I know we love to say likebeing 18, like oh, you're an
adult now, like everything'schanged, but really I feel like

(02:49:07):
what they say about your frontallobe is like so true.
I really feel like mid-20s iswhen you kind of really
understand like the gravity oflike the decisions you're making
.
Um, so, yeah, it's just likereputation, opportunities for
the future, people dissectingyour body, just just all that
stuff well, I think you're dropdead gorgeous in every picture
you put online, so take that.

Brianna (02:49:24):
I think you have nothing to be ashamed of with
any of that it is a deep problem, though.

Taf (02:49:31):
Um, I think in reflecting on it she said something like
it's really hard to let peopledown once you've already
promised something, and I thinkthat we all sort of walk around
in our day-to-day lives withthis feeling that we are in

(02:49:51):
control of what we're doing andwe're like actively choosing how
to act.
But if you've ever experimentedwith drugs, you realize pretty
quickly that what is going onchemically in your brain affects
how you act a lot and you canhave the feeling of like being

(02:50:12):
in full control and not actuallybe in control at all.
You know, starting picking uhfive ants list x amphetamine and
realizing that like, um, a lotof my like day-to-day experience
is me just like convinced thatI'm in control of how I'm acting
, when really I have like verylittle control of what I'm doing

(02:50:36):
and I'm getting like suckedinto chasing this thing or that
thing, uh, and I really don'thave the option to choose, not
to go down a rabbit hole ofthought or action or whatever it
is.
And so, suddenly, having thatdopamine pathway in my brain

(02:50:56):
changed, I had this feeling like, oh, I see something in my
environment and I can choose notto think about it.
That was like totally mindblowing to me, and I didn't
realize before then that I, like, was operating my entire life
without that like feeling ofchoice.
Or, you know, even if I had thechoice, I just felt like I was
actively choosing it.

(02:51:17):
And so, you know, sex is just sopowerful, and so are the social
currents around us, and I thinkthat women especially are so
vulnerable to being pushed bythose social currents that
sometimes I think it makes thechallenge of consent really hard

(02:51:40):
.
And so when I see someone likeLily Phillips, who has had sex
with a hundred men, then shelooks like shell shocked
afterwards and she's saying,like you know I don't think I'd
recommend it, but you know Ijust felt like, you know, it'd
be really hard to let peopledown after I promised it.
That's like horrifying.
And you know society shouldprobably not be putting people

(02:52:03):
in the position where this kindof behavior is, you know,
totally rewarding in terms ofattention and money.

Brianna (02:52:14):
I mean what I like Kelly, you'll back me up on this
I guess someone with a vagina Idon't understand how, like five
guys could be pleasurable likethat is going to physically hurt
you after a while.
Like I understand it can't belike it's all your clit.
It's not a mystery, right?

(02:52:35):
It's just penetration, like ata certain point, like is there,
where's the like?
I understand there's some, likeeven cis women with like a
degradation fetish, I guess, butit's like I just I can't.
I I can't understand where I.
I understand wanting to makemoney from it.

(02:52:56):
I, I personally have such ahard time understanding where
that would be exciting, like,like what even part of
psychology would that tap into?
Because, like, my pussy hurtsjust thinking about that.

Kelly (02:53:09):
So yeah, I don't think it is exciting.
I think it's 100% about moneyand clout.
It's just about like gettingfollowers, getting us to talk
about her.
Just I mean she'll probably, Idon't know, but she'll hold up
because, like, look at, likeHawk Tua, you know, not that
like she's even on like the samelevel as this, like at all, but
you know even just her beinglike a meme, like she took off

(02:53:30):
an entire career.
I'm sure like she's thinking,oh, if I get known for this, I
can spin it into a bigger adultcareer or a regular career in
general, you know orcryptocurrency scale yeah,
that's it.
Yeah, I know um the hogs.
You girl just did one of those.
Huh, I didn't.
I don't know what it's calledthough just wait till doll coin

(02:53:51):
comes out.

Schyler (02:53:52):
It's gonna be very exciting and all the investors
invest in doll coin yeah, Ithink when I was just watching
the documentary and one of themoments that really struck me,
where I was like oh, there'ssomething really wrong here.
And it was just an instinct,like it's really hard for me to
put into any kind of likeconcrete wording what is

(02:54:15):
explicitly wrong in thissituation, because technically
there is consent and from alegal standpoint that is sort of
the framework I would shapethis around.
But then there's the otherlayer, that like higher level of
morality, of like just becauseit's okay or legal to do it,
from that perspective, is thissomething you should do?

(02:54:36):
And it became a lot moretangible that no, this really
doesn't look like something youshould do, based on one point
where josh earlier in thedocumentary this is before she's
hooked up with a hundred menasks her so what are your hopes
and aspirations for, like youknow, getting married or like

(02:54:56):
settling down, and she literallyresponds it's like, well,
there's so many men out there,some poor bastard is just going
to have to settle with me.
And like it was very close alongthose lines and I was just like
my heart just like broke inhalf when I was like she has so
low self-esteem and it's becauseof the toll that all of this

(02:55:16):
has taken on her.
With her, you know only fans,and there's all these sexual
encounters.
It just, it just really had away of like waking me up to the
reality that this is going toforever haunt her and be
something that, like she has towork past.
And it just it breaks my heartthat this is getting platformed

(02:55:36):
and I'm like what can we do tolike culturally change this
where it's not like a legalthing?
Because I don't think this is alegal thing, this is like a
cultural thing and I just, Idon't know, I'm like left with
no answers.

Taf (02:55:51):
I think Mary Harrington, she's like a reactionary
feminist.
I think I saw her discussingthis on Twitter and her angle,
which you know, I haven't deeplyexplored, but it was
questioning the agency thatpeople have.
Yeah, maybe the term she usedwas like the myth of female

(02:56:12):
agency, where I think sometimespeople are yeah, because it's
really when we say that we'rehitting it very deeply held, uh,
cultural expectations like theidea that women have agency,
very important, you know, in somany ways to our cultural
foundation, so it's difficult tochallenge that.

(02:56:33):
And I think that, um, her, herpoint is something like, many
times when we look at thesesituations, you know, know, it's
easy to dismiss it as like amatter of consent, like, if you
know, if she consented it's okay, and it's sort of it fails to

(02:56:54):
account for all the ways inwhich humans can believe they're
consenting and actually, like,not really want to be in that
situation.
And so, you know, the lilyphillips situation, it just
strikes me so different fromsomeone like ayla.
Like ayla, you know, I thinkbrianna knows her um, she, she's

(02:57:18):
the one who, like, isresponsible for the fluffer meme
, like came in fluffer meme andshe does these like birthday
gang bangs.
I am a hundred percentconvinced that, like ayla has
very little psychological damageas a result of this, oh, and
she's just like she's veryunique in the way that her brain
works and for her I think thatlike she is the kind of like you

(02:57:41):
know, probably autistic, kindof robotic approach to this
which is like very consent basedand it works for her.
But most people don't have thatkind of way of processing the
world and you really see it insomeone like Lily Phillips, just
you know, who seems likeutterly destroyed emotionally by
this experience.

Brianna (02:58:00):
So don't you think, if we're getting back to this myth
of consent thing, like I feel astrans women, we really have a
front row seat to this that alot of people miss, just in the
sense that it's like we're goingthrough life with the
socialization and all of asudden, like even more than cis
women, like your fundamentalidentity is so based on how hot

(02:58:25):
you are and how sexy you are,like it's really stunning to me
to see this in the culture.
And yeah, I remember when I wasin my 20s and there was so much
pressure to like self-sexualizeyourself, right.
And I think, if you're talkinglike this myth of this myth of
female um, consent on this, Ithink there's a lot of truth

(02:58:47):
there that everything aboutsociety is going well.
You know you can choose to dothis sex positive, blah, blah,
blah.
But the truth is we're alsoliving in society where women
are so overvalued for our looksand so undervalued for
leadership qualities andanything else.

(02:59:08):
There's a natural tendency tomake us like competent, second
in commands in an organization.
Being a female leader istremendously challenging.
I've run teams as a man and awoman and I can tell you, like
the, it is so much harder togive feedback or do discipline.
As a woman, it's not even close.
So I just think like there is a.

(02:59:31):
I think there's a widerdiscussion here about the
illusion of agency, where it'sreally society is funneling you
down a path, if that makes sense.

Taf (02:59:44):
Yeah, I think so, and I think that what happens is not
that it's obviously literallynot the case that women don't
have agency, but it's just thatsociety can sometimes convince
women that they have agency insomething, but really not
providing them that many optionsby really not providing them

(03:00:06):
that many options, and theresult is sort of to be trapped
by a society which is more thanwilling to sexualize and exploit
someone and really not providethem with an alternative route.
And so I think that that isreally scary, because it can be
so easily papered over with thisthing which is just like, well,
they just like they consented,and it's like okay, what is the
environment in which someone'sconsenting that is so important?

(03:00:29):
And it's hard to talk aboutthat, but it probably needs to
be.

Schyler (03:00:33):
Yeah, yeah.

Kelly (03:00:36):
It's an interesting conversation because it's like,
if there's, if there's no otheroptions, or if society is
pushing women so far in thisdirection, it's like there's, if
there's no other options, or ifsociety is pushing women so far
in this direction, it's likethat there really is no agency
then at all, like because, likeI know, like taffy, you said
like, oh well, obviously thereis in general, but it doesn't
sound like there is likehonestly I guess it's a deep
question about, like free will.

Taf (03:00:57):
Um, I just mean, I think it'd be unlikely, I think in my
mind, if women had, like lessfree will than men, you know.
So I don't think that that'swhat we're talking about.
We're just talking about like,you know, what it means to exist
as someone in society, in asociety that is like maybe built
to kind of sexualize andexploit you, and so when I say

(03:01:20):
like agency, that's kind of whatI'm talking about, not like a,
you know, biological differencein how the brain processes
things.
You know, I don't, I couldn'tpossibly speak to something like
that.
So, yeah, I don't.

Brianna (03:01:31):
I think like this goes all the way around too.
Like I think for men there area lot of messages in society
that tell themselves tosacrifice literally their bodies
for higher purpose.
Like think about how men arepushed into military careers or
police careers or securitycareers, like it's a level of
danger I'm certainly not signingup for.

(03:01:53):
So I think like the truth isthere's all this stuff that
society values about all of us,men and women, that gives us
kind of this illusion but it canactually be very damaging.
Like Taff, I know, you know myreally good friend Connor, and
Connor talks very openly aboutthe PTSD of stuff he saw while

(03:02:14):
he was serving as a Marine or asa police officer that he'll
close his eyes and yeah, connoris an extremely handsome like
dude's dude, right, like he's asmacho as it gets.
But you know he also can't turnhis head to a certain degree
because of like injuries that hegot serving the country.
So I think like this is notsomething unique to women, if

(03:02:37):
that makes sense yeah, yeah, Ithink so.

Taf (03:02:40):
I think that's an important piece to hit on.
It's just that, like peoplesort of have their agency
stripped from them in differentways, and we see this sometimes
with women sexualizingthemselves.
But you can see it elsewhereand it's not even like you just
see it all the time.
Person, people who areimmigrants or low income or
whatever.
There are tons of institutions,people who are willing to

(03:03:10):
exploit that vulnerability inorder to gain something.
It's tragic, oh my goodness.

Schyler (03:03:19):
Alright, are we good to wrap?
Let's roll.
Alright, great.
So after three hours ofshooting, whoa, all right, yeah,
so, okay, y'all.
What a great start to seasontwo, like from having jank on
and talking about all thesedifferent topics um, it's always
so much fun.
I love just hanging out herewith you all and just being

(03:03:41):
ourselves and and, and trying tosave trans rights A lack of
better terms, so, yeah.
So just want to say you know toall our listeners.
Thank you all so much forlistening and tuning in today.
Don't forget to check us out onour socials, though.

Brianna (03:03:56):
Oh, we have updated socials.
Can I explain this to everyone?
Go for it.
Okay.
So by the time this goes live,go to dollcastshowcom.
Dollcastshowcom.
You can sign up for the videoversion of this show, which will
be on YouTube.
If you want it on Pocket Castor iTunes Podcast or any of the

(03:04:17):
podcast services, it's going tobe there, so find everything on
Dollcast show.
Uh, we are most active onTwitter right now.
There's also doll cast show,but we are moving to blue sky
this week as well, so there'swhere everything is Yay.

Schyler (03:04:34):
Big shout out to Brie for doing all that heavy lifting
Well, thank JK.

Brianna (03:04:38):
Rowling.
She's the one that kept me upall night, so I just got it all
done.
Thank you, jk.

Schyler (03:04:44):
And if you like what you're hearing in our show,
please, please, leave a comment,leave a review, say something,
because we could use thosepositive vibes we would love to
you know, shout it out, share iton the show.
We're all about that, and so Ijust want to say again thank you
for being part of the Dollcastfamily and thank you so much for

(03:05:05):
tuning in and with that, wehave a special exit today, and
that is that.
What do we represent here onthe show?
We represent elite, elite,human traffic, that's it all.
All right, human Trapital,that's it all.

Brianna (03:05:24):
Honorary shout out to Ananya Alright Elite Human
Trapital out Terminated guys.

Schyler (03:05:34):
Love it, love it On that note.
Stay fabulous and see you nexttime.

Brianna (03:05:40):
Oh, my god Good stuff.

Taf (03:05:43):
That was a damn good show.
That was a damn good show.

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