E1x01 Plastic Martyr: Triumphs, Trans Rights, and a Kinder Future

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to DollCast.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
With Kelly Carrigan.
I know you guys are going totell me I'm crazy, but I think
all gay men would benefit from agender transition.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Rihanna Woods.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Do you know who Rihanna Woods is?
It was people on the line.
I actually never knew her, so Idon't have a lot of approach to
this stuff.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
Skylar Bogart.
More confused on girls or boyswould be a better fit for me,
and when you're bisexual and youhave the potential for either,
you've got to parse that out alittle bit.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Intaj Tav.
Having your story heard, havingpeople empathize with you on
that kind of political level, Ithink is really hard to do.
It's the Dog Cats, dog Cats.
People empathize with you onthat kind of political level, I
think it's really hard to do.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
Hello and welcome back to doll cast, where real
talk meets the touch of glam andplenty of laughs.
I'm your host, skylar, and wehave an absolutely stacked
episode today, with some fiercetopics and even fiercer opinions
.
But first let me introduce thebrilliant and ever entertaining
crew who make every episodesparkle.

(01:13):
So first up we have the wiseand mystical muse herself,
taftaj.
Seriously, if wisdom hadfragrance, she'd be the luxury
perfume you wish you couldafford.
Welcome tab thank you, skylar,I'm excited to be here and so
next up we have the fun andeloquent brianna woo, a woman of

(01:35):
many talents.
She can win a debate and plan amario kart strategy all in one.
How's it going?

Speaker 1 (01:42):
brie know, the most embarrassing thing that ever
happened to me is my niececompletely destroyed me at
Christmas last year at MarioKart and I'm just like bitch.
I have been playing this gamesince 1994 and you're coming in
here and beating me.
How dare you A?
Thank you very much.
I appreciate that, skye.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
Ouch A wound to the pride, I'm sorry, Skye.
Ouch A wound to the pride, I'msorry.
All right and last butdefinitely not least, the spicy
original homegirl herself,Callie Cadigan.
Known for bringing the dramaand well spilling the tea, she
keeps us on our toes and readyfor the next plot twist.
Kelly, are you ready to stirthe?

Speaker 3 (02:22):
pot today.
Oh my God, always I'm soexcited.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
Great.
So, kicking off today's episode, we have our very first guest
on the show, the iconic PlasticMartyr.
You might know her from herviral videos where she shares
her life and throws in somespicy commentary.
But with the election on thehorizon, today we're going to be
talking politics, plastic'sunapologetic advocacy and why

(02:47):
she feels so passionately aboutthese issues.
Plastic welcome to doll castthank you for having me amazing
so tell us a little bit moreabout yourself and what you love
to share on your socials well Iam in the entertainment
industry.

Speaker 5 (03:05):
I began as a fashion model when I was like 14 and
then slowly moved into realityTV.
I also do music and through thatjourney I also had to navigate
that as an openly trans womanand that was really interesting
because you would thinkHollywood was this open-minded
place but it was very judgmentalagainst trans people, trans

(03:26):
women specifically.
I was fired left and right fromrunway shows and music videos,
find out I was trans and it wasjust really interesting to
navigate both things.
The entertainment industry isreally really difficult to
manage for anybody and, on topof that, being a marginalized
person, it's really interesting.
So I kind of started doing morecontent talking about that and

(03:54):
then, around 2016, when transrights was starting to be more
villainized and politicized bythe far right, I began to push
back on that and start to givemy opinion on, as an actual
trans person, how transitioningyoung, and start to give my
opinion on, you know, as anactual trans person, how
transitioning young and beingseen by my family saved my life
rather than hurting you know,they invited me onto two

(04:15):
separate uh, major reality showsin the gamergate era and I said
no to them.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Like, I looked at it and I'm like I know they're
going to set me up to be thevillain and I don't know.
So I'm not surprised thathappened to you.
I was watching them.
After they finally came out, Iwas like, oh my God, I'm so glad
I said no to both of these.
So I wanted to talk.
The whole reason I wanted tobring you on the show today is

(04:40):
you know, there's an electionand I love your Kamala content.
You is there's an election andI love your Kamala content.
You're always out there.
You're cheerleading for my girl,kamala Harris, who I've worked
with a ton in the last fouryears.
Her office on women'sinitiatives really impressive
stuff and I criticized her quitea bit in the 2020 primary.

(05:02):
She was absolutely not mycandidate.
I was 100% in on ElizabethWarren, so she had a lot of like
work to do to impress me.
Her office did.
It's not like.
This is the first politicianI've ever worked with.
I walked away so impressed withhow professional and thoughtful
and, most of all, strategicthat they were.

(05:23):
So, um, I thought like what Iwanted to do today was, uh, I
know there's a little bit of adifferent opinion here at the,
the dollar cast who we're allvoting for.
I was thinking we would kind ofall just talk as a group, you
know, figuring out uh kind ofwhat's at stake with me.
I want to be the first oh boy.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, it's like I want to hear why, because I mean
I don't want to call you out,but I know you're leaning
towards trump.
So over kamala, if you don'tmind me asking oh gosh, wait,
you know you're.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
You're putting me on the spot first it is hard to go
first, especially if you've gotlike the dissenting opinion yeah
, oh, but okay, I appreciatethose assurances.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
I feel like I'm about to be excommunicated from this
group, I really know, okay.
So I mean, well, for me it'slike a lot of it is from like I
feel like trans rights.
I liked how I liked themovement back in like the mid 20
teens, like back when it wasfirst fresh and it was like
inspirational and it was reallylike it seemed like the

(06:29):
direction progressivism wasgoing and it seemed like the
right way.
But I think things came to afront for me when I saw like the
title nine legislation comingthrough with like Biden and
Harris going for that and tryingto codify gender identity into
law and I'm like, okay, I seethe value in like protecting
vulnerable people like ourselves, but there's going to be bad

(06:51):
actors and like people thatabuse that and it like strips
away the ability to actuallylike treat them in the way that
they should be treated.
I mean there's like lots ofcases of this kind of thing like
internationally and I'm justlike kind of scared for what
that could do long term fortrans rights if, like the
impression of who, of what transmeans in the public eye, goes

(07:12):
like downhill because of allthese you know bad actors like
predators and etc.
That are like coming into thetrans community because there's
benefits legally I, legally, Idon't know.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
So I'm going to go I mean, I definitely have so many
thoughts on that right Because Ithink this election is really
kind of a referendum onprogressivism and a certain kind
of identity progressivism whichis very focused on these
marginalized groups and creatingprotections for them.

(07:46):
And besides you, skylar, I'mprobably like the most, um,
maybe like Trump leaning or likeright person on here and my,
like biggest concern with Trumpis just like the election stuff
and the sort of instability thatcauses.
But I empathize a lot with yourfeelings of kind of anxiety

(08:09):
around the progressive push fordefending trans rights.
It's not how I would do it likeI think that we need an
approach which defends ourrights on the basis of freedom
and free expression.
I think that is so much morerobust and I I really do see how
, like when we've kind of bargedinto spaces and insisted that

(08:29):
people, you know, view us acertain way, sometimes it's
backfired and we've seen thisbig push where people are really
frustrated.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
So I relate, I empathize, so I just want to
jump in and say like, look, Itotally understand where both of
you are coming from.
I really do so.
As someone who regularly writeschecks to the Democratic Party,
raises money professionally forthe Democratic Party, works
with the Democratic Party on ahost of elections.
I cannot stress to you just howlittle they understand or care

(09:02):
about us.
They're completely tuned out tothe average democrat.
Like I swear to god, before Iwrite them a check, I will get
the candidate on the phone and Iwill say this is something I
always do.
I go what is in your mind themost important?
Um, you know, uh, public policyfor trans people, and they will
always, always give mesomething completely stupid,

(09:24):
like non-binary driver'slicenses, or you know, it's not
healthcare funding, it's likesomething that's very
superficial.
Like I had a major candidateI'm not going to tell you their
name, but this is as high up asit gets in the government and
they told me that, like theyhelped change a form in their
state to make it so you didn'thave to declare your gender on

(09:44):
it, and it's like dude, I carefunding.
So I hear what you're saying.
I really think you shouldattribute all of this in the
democratic party, not to themsubscribing to this maximalist
opinion on things like titlenine, which I also share your um
reservations about, and tellingyou, after the republicans have

(10:05):
made them pay such a high pricefor standing with the trans
community this time around, itis not going to be the same if
Kamala comes into office.
So, you know, in my view, Ithink it's okay to look at the
bigger things, like is democracygoing to be okay?
What is the economy going to belike?
What is our national securitygoing to be like?
You know, as someone to be like, what is our national security
going to be like?

(10:25):
As someone who's taken a verypublic stand with Israel, it
gives me a lot of pause that RexTillerson quit as Secretary of
State midway through.
I didn't love the guy, but hewas eminently qualified.
So many of Trump's generalshave quit halfway through and we
are seriously looking at a hotwar with Taiwan, um, you know,

(10:46):
in the next five years overTaiwan, rather so, you know, I I
think if you really look atthis, uh, from 30,000 feet up,
it it just I I understand whereyou're coming from.
It's just not, um, I I don'tthink it's going to be as big an
issue in my opinion.
Can I ask you a question?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
sure, of course, if you're seriously looking at a
hot war with taiwan and you knowpretty soon here is there any
desire to move manufacturing athome?
Right now, a ton of that isoffshored, especially into
places where china has access.
In china, it seems like youknow, one way to interpret

(11:23):
Trump's protectionism is reallyas an anticipation of
geopolitical conflict and adesire to make sure that we have
domestic manufacturing.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, 100%.
I'm very aligned with you onthat, which is why I was so
upset that Mike Johnsonliterally yesterday as we're
recording this, the RepublicanSpeaker in the House said he was
going to repeal the CHIPS Act.
And if we can get into theCHIPS Act and you know tooling
and all of that, I understandit's not a perfect legislation,
but this was trying to getsomething that's very much

(11:53):
international security interestback here at home because you
know we can't like have amilitary if we can't have CHIPS
to operate it.
So I really share that and alot of Trump's domestic agenda
is someone that actually ran forCongress here in Massachusetts.
I've talked to these union guysthat want jobs back here at
home, so I'm sympathetic to that.

(12:15):
I think the question is not thepolicy I have a difference with
.
It's more is Trump the vehicleto get us there, and I just
don't have faith in thatcredibility.

Speaker 4 (12:26):
Well, I'd love to talk more about that too.
The personality like plastic.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
What do you think about it?

Speaker 5 (12:30):
let's pivot yeah, well, um, as a Jew and a trans
woman, um, I think Trump isextremely dangerous.
I see he I mean he has justcome out, he is not hiding it,
he is full front and center ofwhat he wants to do, how he
wants to destroy this democracy,how he wants to make this a
white, christian, nationalistcountry and I'm sorry anybody

(12:53):
who is okay with that orsupports that.
In my eyes, you're batshitcrazy.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
Literally, we have hey, except Scott, except Scott.

Speaker 5 (13:03):
History.
Read the history books.
If you sit by and allow this tohappen again, you are part of
this problem, and he is nothiding it.
So, as for trans rights, I hadthis issue with a bunch of these
progressive trans women who arelike oh, kamala isn't doing
enough or isn't saying enoughand it's like well, she
shouldn't be saying this rightnow, before the election.

(13:23):
Democrats are extremelytransphobic too, and we are so
far down on the list, and Iwould want us to be at the top
of the list.
Trans rights should not be thenumber one thing that America is
talking about right now.
I think we deserve human rights.
I think we need to put checksand balances into place because,
like some of you said, thereare people who are abusing the
power of this, but I don't thinkthat trans women should not be

(13:47):
considered women and I don'tthink that we should invalidate
people's identity and invalidatepeople's personalities simply
because you don't agree with it.
I think there needs to be checksand balances, but I think
segregating trans people fromcisgender people is extremely
wrong and it's gonna lead usdown a road where it opens it up
for more bigotry and moresegregation, and we are just the
tipping point of that.
So I think that it's really,really important to bite the

(14:10):
bullet and, whether you likeKamala or not, at least in four
years there will be anotherelection.
Trump is literally saying manytimes that day one he will be a
dictator.
So if you want to live under adictatorship which is really
actually under Putin.
That's on you, but you know youlie in it and you're going to
be lying in it for a while.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
Kelly, how do you feel about this?
I was really I mean, I waspleased, but you came out really
strongly for Kamala as wellwhen she was kind of the nominee
.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, and I agree with absolutely everything that
Plastic just said.
Back to Skye's point where shewas focusing on, you know, the
people that are abusing thetrans community to do predatory
things, such as, like all thestories we've seen of people
going to female prisons that areidentifying as trans and then
we have all these cases ofassault.
I do think we need to havestricter checks and balances in
place and I don't blame her forhow she phrased that in that

(15:00):
interview.
But, like Plastic was saying, Ireally think we need checks and
balances and I know this isreally controversial in the
trans community.
But I think a huge part of thatis transmedicalism and saying
that HRT is a requirement for anextended period of time at
least before you can have accessto female spaces, such as
female prisons, and I think thatwould prevent a lot of these
assaults that are taking place.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, I think that's really fair.
Yeah, I think it's really fair.
Yeah, I think it's reallyinteresting.
We've got five trans women heretoday and all of us if I'm
understanding everyone right,like all five of us agree that
this maximalist view on transissues, this isn't what we want
from the Democratic Party.
Does that sum up how all of usare feeling today?
Yeah, definitely.

(15:41):
Yeah.
What about you, skye?

Speaker 4 (15:43):
How do you kind of yeah, I mean yeah, I just think,
like as much as I would like tobelieve that we could make
policy on gender identity, whenI look at the real world
examples, I just don't see itbeing tenable.
It's like, I mean, maybe that'sdistortion from the media.
You know, I think any casewhere there's a bad acting trans

(16:04):
woman or, in some cases, likebetter described crossdresser
acting out that's getting calledtrans and then like causing
problems, I mean you have theSal Grover case thing that's
happening in Australia.
It's just awful, but it's it'snot the U?
S, but like the point is, isthat like that kind of thing is
just one step away.
If we're like pushing genderidentity and law and it's like

(16:26):
mean I don't know what the rightapproach is.
I don't have the magicingredient, but you can't
enforce like, like passing, interms of like there's trans
women that are a lot like womenand then there are some that
just well, for better wordsaren't necessarily and it's like
you have, I feel like it's partof like the right vision is to
understand that there's peoplethat aren't going to accept that
and I'm worried that if wecontinue the progressive push

(16:47):
that like honestly, biden Kamala, like I, I'll be honest, I
voted Biden last election andit's only because I'm afraid of
the events that have sort oftaken place.
Like I mean you have the LeahThomas thing at the Olympics and
it's like I don't see anythinglike harming trans rights no
offense to him, no offense toher than that.
And like I mean seriously,because now you have riley

(17:10):
gaines doing this whole thingand it's like a whole career off
of like sports stuff now that's, you know, it's just like how
can we stop that?

Speaker 1 (17:18):
what?
What I find really frustratingis you know I'm a little older
than y'all are in In the transmovement like how we got all
these rights was going veryslowly, piece by piece and
getting buy-in from the widerpublic.
Like something I tweeted outlast week was a copy of my
Virginia birth certificate,which has been changed after I
got GRS to female right.
That is an accommodation thatwas put into law.

(17:39):
It took time.
There was buy-in from thepublic.
What I think has happened in thelast five years is a lot of the
trans activists have convincedDemocratic lawmakers of this
maximalist vision of transliberation.
That essentially comes to.
It's a bunch of policypositions that turn the public
against us.
I think prisons are a reallyreally good example.

(18:01):
I don't think prisons should begender affirming really really
good example.
You know, I don't think prisonshould be gender affirming.
I also don't think someone likeyou know my friend, you know
Chelsea Manning, who wasbasically kept in prison and
tortured without HRT and withouthelp for that gender dysphoria.
That's also not the rightpolicy.
So I don't know if we need tolike create a separate you know
prison for trans people in theUnited States or what, but you

(18:22):
know this maximalist idea.
I think it's not serving usbecause it just hands the
Republicans all the tools theyneed to like create millions of
dollars of ads going after us.
So, plastic.
When you said you know youthink they're talking about
trans stuff way too much, Ireally strongly agree with you.
I want trans people to be a lotless visible and I want us just

(18:44):
to be a lot less visible and Iwas just to be able to go about
our lives like kind of quietlyin the background.

Speaker 5 (18:49):
Yeah, like when I transitioned.
I mean, I began my transitionat five years old and, wow,
you're so lucky.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
I was very lucky and I definitely want to hear about
that as well.

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Yeah, so I I'm 35 now , so I, I guess 30 years ago,
and my mom is a liberal Jew fromNew York, she's got two masters
in psychology and she yeah, sheknew what was happening.
This wasn't on me, this wasn'tlike.
That's why, like the wholenarrative of, oh, like you're
teaching kids and nobody's Ididn't even know what that was.

(19:19):
I didn't know the wordtransgender until I was 16.
All I knew was I was a girl andI had to do whatever I had to
do to make myself, not want tokill myself.
Because I remember the firsttime I wanted to kill myself I
was six years old, and it wasn'tbecause I was depressed.
I learned about reincarnationin school and I was like, oh my
God, that's it, that's how.
I'm going to get in the rightbody.
I remember that I did the samething.

(19:41):
I tried to kill myself BecauseI was like I'm going to come
back in the right body this time, and thank God I didn't
successfully do it.
It's way harder to drownyourself at six years old than
you think, but anyway.
So my mom luckily saw me andknew that it was at that point
called gender dysphoria orwhatever the hell it was called,
and she allowed me to sociallytransition.

(20:05):
And then, when I was in my lateteens, I began my hormone
replacement therapy journey.
And then, in my 20s is when Igot my surgery and all of that,
just it's what kept me alive.
And my mom fought for me everysingle day, because when I was
doing this years ago, there wasnobody else out there, there was
no internet for us to getinformation.

(20:25):
So when, um, you know, I wouldgo into the bathrooms the girls
bathrooms and then the parentswould complain and then the
school would tell me I can't goin the girls bathroom, my mom
was there fighting for me andshe was like either you're gonna
let my kid use the correctbattle lines with her gender or
I'm gonna have a news crew heretomorrow and your choice, and

(20:47):
the transphobia that Iexperienced now is worse than
anything I've ever experiencedin the years before.
I mean, you think it was theopposite because there's so much
more information now, but Iguess ignorance is bliss and I
would love to go back to a timewhen people just didn't give a
shit or were more afraid of methan they wanted to hurt me,
because now they want to hurt merather than be afraid of me

(21:08):
totally, and I feel like that'ssomething that we can all relate
to on some level.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
I'm lucky in that, like my parents also fought for
me in a lot of ways.
Like I remember, you know, oneof my extended family members
like misgendered me and myfather was like like, was like
so annoyed, and he was like,yeah, she just doesn't get it,
and he was like ranting um andlike I had not asked him to do
that, but he just he so clearlyloved me, uh, so deeply and

(21:38):
understood my struggle.
Yeah, so touching and I feellike what I'm hearing from like
everyone, even though people aremaybe disagreeing, is that
we're all united about wanting abetter world for people like us
and I.
I'm so frustrated sometimes when, you know, I look out into the

(22:01):
internet space and I see thatpeople who are, you know, maybe
a little bit like transcriticalor not progressive, I see them
like selling out toconservatives and to gender
critical people, because it's soeasy to do that, it's so easy
to just be like you know, I havea slightly different opinion.
These people will give meattention without opinion.
I'm just going to get like youknow, I'm just going to take

(22:22):
advantage of that, but at theend of the day, I'm just going
to get like you know, I'm justgoing to take advantage of that,
but at the end of the day, likeyou and I, skylar and you,
plastic, like, we all just wantthe best for us and we all have
a united target on our back isthe thing so like difference of
opinion on political people ornot, we still have that same
target on our back it's soimportant.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah, no, um, I wanted to ask have y'all seen,
um, that that trans ad that isplaying?
I live in massachusetts and itis on the air every four seconds
.
I was, um, walking on thebathroom at the movie theater
the other day and this ad comeson the air and it's got like a
trans woman with a very deepvoice and then it shows, you

(23:03):
know, rachel levine, and then itshows a bunch a very deep voice
and then it shows you knowRachel Levine, and then it shows
a bunch of drag queens, youknow.
Then it goes into Kamala Harriswants gender affirming surgery
for prisoners.
And then, you know, it endswith the tagline like Trump is
for us, kamala is for they, them, and you know, it's not that.

(23:26):
I think all of us just said likewe want a more sophisticated
conversation about how transpeople are treated in prison.
I certainly do not want, youknow, cis women in danger,
because the prison system isputting, you know, rapists in
with, uh, you know, cis women.
That that's cruel and crazy.
We all condemn unequivocally.
But at the same time, that'snot what this ad is.

(23:47):
It's using these caricatures oftrans women as drag queens and
then using us to scare thepublic and then linking like a
bunch of ideas together, likedrag queens, trans women, you
know non binary people into thesoup to basically make people
hate us, and that's a.

(24:07):
It's a really dispiriting thingto see an election about like
dehumanizing you.
Do y'all feel the same way?
Totally.

Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yeah, it's just it's taking that exaggerated bad
examples.
I mean this started with, like,the drag queen story hour.
That's what's fuming that wholead is like with the drag queen
part, and it's like drag queenshave been around forever, but it
wasn't until the schools andthe drag queen story hour time
that this whole thing started tobecome an issue.

(24:36):
Like you have a wholepublication like now is it
called Redux that goes and justpublishes like anti-trans
content all the time and likerightfully, I mean I'll, I'll be
honest like they're takingexamples, real world examples,
and just reporting on them.
So the problem is with thelegal system, the framework
that's allowing these.

(24:57):
Again, you know, I don't want tosay they're not genuine trans
women, but there's clearlyproblems going on with these
people and it's like they'regetting wrapped up, though, and
they're basically dragging thewhole thing down and it's like,
how can we move forward in a waythat protects the image of,
like, the trans community andkeeps those rights and keeps the

(25:17):
public image like going up,like free?
I always think back to how youyou always talk, because you
transitioned so long ago, how,like you saw the evolution in
rights like over time, and likeI go back to that I'm like we
take it for granted.
Like I take it for granted, Ihad everything paid for through
search, through insurance,because of well, because of

(25:37):
people like you that came beforeand spoke to the efficacy of
this process and, like before,now we're starting to see
pushback and now we see adsliterally political ads
attacking us.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Like I don't know it's exhausting.
It really hurts me.
I mean, kelly, how do you feel?

Speaker 3 (25:55):
about it.
I mean, it's always been tough.
I feel like the right has justbeen getting more and more
against us as this election hasbeen getting closer.
It just feels like I didn'tthink it could get worse, and
from 2018 and now it just feelslike we're here and it's even
worse than it was.
I remember in like 2016, itfelt like things were kind of
taking a turn um, especiallywhen caitlin jenner came out,

(26:16):
like I thought like society wasgoing to be with us and I don't
know.
It seems like ever since trumpgot into office, uh, it's gotten
worse and worse, and now Idon't know if we're getting more
accepted by society anymore.
I think there's more peopleagainst us than ever before,
especially because we've been soexposed by the trans visibility
movement.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
I think it's a real problem.
I hope this is an unpopularopinion, but I think that trans
people because we don't havechildren, I think we are really
underestimating the degree towhich it's upsetting parents
like this explosion of veryyoung children that are
non-binary.
I've got a really good friendof mine.
He was telling me with theclass they were having a coming

(26:58):
out day and half the class wasraising their hand not saying,
hi, I'm gay or lesbian, but I'mnon-binary.
And it's not that I'm saying Idon't think that they're going
through something real there.
I'm saying that justpragmatically.
If you've got armies, these kidscoming out in schools.
It is scaring the parents andit's really easy for me to

(27:20):
understand how some of thesethings have been done in a way
that I don't think is skillfuland it's just giving the
Republicans ammunition to goafter us.
So you know, when I'm sayingstuff on Twitter kind of urging
us to back away from thisprogressive fringe, it's not
because I don't love transpeople or I don't see the
humanity there.
It's because I don't thinkthese tactics are going to get

(27:41):
us the things that we want, andall of us on this call today I
think we all 10 out of 10 wantdignity for trans people is,
isn't that?

Speaker 2 (27:49):
right absolutely, and I think you're on something
really important, which is thissort of distinction between like
a lifestyle minority or like amedical minority and like I
believe very strongly that ifyou want to wear like women's
clothing and you just want tolike cross dress, like, you

(28:10):
should be able to do that andyou should be able to wear your
drag and you should be able tolike identify as non-binary and
whatever that means to you.
I think it's like sofundamental to your right as an
american that you'd be able toexpress that.
At the same time, I think thatthere's like a sort of
conflation here where, likemaybe these children in these

(28:32):
classes who are all raisingtheir hands and saying that
they're non-binary they probablyare like expressing a real
sentiment which is like the thedesire for gender non-conformity
or fluidity, and it's like it'svery you know, it's okay if
children are able to explorethat.
I think the problem we've sentlike mixed messages, and one of

(28:55):
those messages is that it's liketotally that we need to
transition because there'smedical need and so, like
plastic when you're talkingabout like I would kill myself
if I wasn't able to transitionthat is an intense need which
goes so far beyond just, youknow, like I like the color
green, right I'm wearing a greendress.

(29:16):
That's not a strong need right.
At the end of the day, I don'tthink that I have like a medical
like right to wear the colorgreen.
I think I have a personalfreedom of expression right to
do that.
And I think that when we makearguments for, like trans people
getting surgeries in prison,for example, that's a medical
need argument, right and we candefend trans rights on that.

(29:41):
But if we're going to do that,then we need to make a
distinction for the these kidsthat are raising their hand,
otherwise people are going tosee them and be they're thinking
that like, oh, progressiveswant to like give these kids
surgery and we just have to beable to show that like both
things are fine, but they aredifferent things that we're
talking about here I do feellike they have completely blown

(30:05):
out of proportion the whole,like kids are being confused by
this thing.

Speaker 5 (30:09):
I think that that is a tool that the republicans have
used it's exaggerated for sure,when I was a kid, one of the
the most euphoric feelingsremember was in high school.
I had this one teacher who saidto me day one, what are your
pronouns?
And I was looking at him, likeI'm like, what the fuck are you

(30:31):
talking about?
Like, because the school wasjust they, you know, misgendered
me in the yearbook.
They, you know, were refused tocall me she, her.
They were just horrible.
And this one teacher was like,what do you want to be called?
And I said she, her.
And I didn't even know that wasan option in the school.
And he addressed the entireclass and explained to them what
transgender meant and that I amto be called she, her.

(30:53):
And you know how many kids inthat class transitioned, other
than me, zero.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Zero yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
None of them.
Well, no, I was just sayingthat probably I'm assuming that
maybe made you feel like malecaster that make you feel
uncomfortable at all.

Speaker 5 (31:04):
No, it made me feel so seen and it made me feel safe
because I was like you know,this teacher has my back now and
now.
If any other kids in classbullied me or were like you're a
boy, you're a boy like I wouldgo to him and he would address
it and I was like I just felt sosafe in his class, whereas the
other classes I was, it wasbullying me was excused.

(31:25):
So I mean, I even had asubstitute teachers that would
write notes.
When they would have substituteteachers on the notes they
would say that me they would use, my name was to be called by
this name, my legal name, and donot call me she, her.
So it was just like that classI didn't feel safe in, versus

(31:46):
this class where this teacherwas like I see you, who do you
want to be?
And it was like amazing.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Well, that's so much like what you're talking about
with your mother too the powerof having someone step in and
have your back.
And it doesn't even need to belike an institutional thing like
you know where, like the schoolitself is having like a rule in
place, but just having oneperson to like have your back on
that, that's so valuable.

(32:12):
And you know I think we'vetalked about this so many times
on this show but kind of likethat, there's cultural
differences betweenconservatives and liberals.
One of those culturaldifferences you know, I grew up
in like a rural town, like lotsof conservatives one of the
cultural elements of that is theidea that you sort of you stand
up for yourself, or like youget other people to stand up for

(32:34):
you, but you don't rely on,like the government or like the
policy to protect you and thatkind of works.
When you're in this small townand you have these personal
relationships and like you canreally connect with people.
But it's way harder to do whenyou're navigating these sort of
impersonal environments where,like you might not have those

(32:56):
connections.
And so I think that, likeliberals and progressives,
they're way more likely toadvocate for like an actual
policy, something in Title IX oryou know, in somewhere else in
the law that says no, you can'tdiscriminate.
And so I think that there'sjust we're like butting heads
culturally where conservativesare like, why do you need to do
that?
Like, just, you know, speak topeople, and it's different

(33:18):
approaches that work.
You know, more or less indifferent areas.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
I mean, I hear you, you know, Taff, I in different
areas, I hear you, taff.
I remember, though, we had oneblack girl that came in and
enrolled in my Mississippiprivate school when I was young,
and I'll never forget the dayshe got stabbed in the eye with
a pencil.
Holy fuck.
She left school after that andI never saw her again.
I think that regulation canhave its place when I really

(33:45):
differ from this.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
People in the eye with pencils.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, I totally agree , there's a bare minimum
regulation.
It was an accident, but we don'tknow if it was racially
motivated or what.
My point is I think thatthere's this tendency in
progressive circles to reallyinflame and just like, poke the
conservatives as hard as you canand push it.

(34:08):
It's where this drag queenstory hour comes from.
I think the pretext with thisis oh, we're going to educate
children about gender diversity.
I think the subtext of itreally is f you conservatives,
look at these drag queens outhere.
We're here, we're proud, we'requeer.
It's just kind of a likestaking a cultural stake in the

(34:28):
ground.
Yeah, I don't have a problemwith that.
I just it's like there's a costto this because they're going
to retaliate and they're goingto backfire.
Um, you know and the last thingI want to say, plastic and yeah,
this is respectfully I I don'tagree with you that, like no
kids are going to transition.
It's a real public policyproblem nowadays.

(34:49):
Um, the number of girls thatare detransitioning, you know
they're, they're getting on thisand we actually don't have full
numbers because these clinicswill not release their total
data to the public.
I think, directionally, if youlook at these stories, for
whatever reason, female to males, they are detransitioning at
rates that are different than us.

(35:09):
We do this.
We tend to not have regrets.
We are relatively low atdetransitioners, but this is a
public policy problem and Ithink mixing non-binary and FTMs
and MTFs into this gender soup,I think it's really not serving
us from a public policyperspective I think again,
checks and balances, butcompletely villainizing trans

(35:32):
kids.

Speaker 5 (35:33):
And oh, 100 allowed again.
That's gonna lead to moresuicides for 100 because there
are trans kids.
So just because thedetransition rate is increased
in trans men and trans boys, um,that doesn't mean that the I
hate using the term real trans,but the real trans, yeah,
because if these rules were inplace when I was a kid, I would

(35:54):
not be here today.
So I have stricter rules, butnot rules that erase trans I'm
100 with you.

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead, sky.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
Sorry, I'll just jump in.
I like I so agree with whatyou're saying there, plastic,
like, I think the like unifyingforce here is that we recognize
that males and females respondto different things, and it's
like one of the things I've seenis that, like females can, they
can tend to have more of like asocial connection to how they

(36:27):
make their decisions and theiridentities, and this can feed
into some of the like problemsof like trying to escape, like
sexualization when they're goingthrough puberty or something,
and then they, they take on thistrans identity, go a little too
far and then they detransitionand it's like that's the issue
is like we got to start treatingcases individually, like how
they are, and recognize, likeyou said, there needs to be a

(36:47):
pipeline or some kind of gatewayor pathway really for you for
trans, for for trans kids, foryouth that are in this space,
know themselves and arequestioning their gender and
saying like I think, I thinkthis might be me like can I get
some help and there should be away for them to proceed in a
supportive environment.

(37:07):
Um, and that's what.
Like, I think what we're allcoming towards is like a
solution for better medical careand that's what we're really
like trying to look for in this,and it's just a matter of
figuring out.
What does that exactly looklike?

Speaker 5 (37:21):
yeah, and listen, I mean, even with among cis
children.
Gender role-playing when you'rea child is normal.
Oh, 100% yes, people forgetthat there are.
So I know so many of mycisgender friends who were
role-playing with gender whenthey were kids and they are
completely like.
There was one little girl thatwas on my block who I was sure
was going to either grow up tobe trans or a lesbian and she is

(37:43):
married with children now andit was like she's exploring, you
know yeah, and I think againmaking children feel like
something is wrong with them,for questioning their gender is
is wrong, and I think when,again, when I was a kid and I
was trans, the checks andbalances that were in place
worked for me.

(38:03):
I went to the doctor, I talkedto therapists, I spoke to my mom
.
I think it's also importantthat we start to educate parents
more, because I think parentsare the ones who are punishing
their children for this, and Ithink the parents need the
education more than the kidsneed the education.
I forgot who it was that saidthat you think that a lot of the
stuff that's being taught inschool now, or like it's

(38:24):
happening in schools, ispushback against the
conservatives.
I do agree to some extentbecause, like, I feel like it's
important to teach kidstolerance.
Some of the stuff is going alittle over the top with some of
these things about like acoming out day for like whatever
, like middle schoolers Maybe abit much.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
Do you think that has anything to do with the amount
of detransitioners we're seeing?
Just because, like I feel, likeyou know nowadays I because
it's taught to them what beingtrans is, what being non-binary
is, in the name of creatingtolerance, do you think that's
just maybe making some kidsthink they're trans and then
they go through a transition andthen go oh shit, this wasn't
meant for me I think the theterms are not clear among people

(39:07):
.

Speaker 5 (39:07):
I think there's a lot of new terms coming in that are
confusing people Like I don'tknow.
For instance, like when I was akid, there was a period in my
life in my childhood where Iprobably would have been
considered non-binary, but Ididn't have that term then.
So I said I would go aroundsaying I was genderless because
I didn't quite feel I was a boy.
I knew I wasn't a boy but Ididn't quite feel comfortable

(39:29):
claiming I was a girl in middleschool.
But I think that beingnon-binary is this great little
purgatory that a lot of transpeople are in in the beginning,
figuring out who they are,trying on different hats and
figuring out am I a girl, am I aboy?
And that's normal.
I think, when we get into allof these new terminologies, that
it is easy for kids to be likeI'm trans when they're really

(39:50):
not, and I think that's wheneither having psychiatrists or
parents or people talking totheir kids about this stuff,
it'd be more important thantrying to shame them and shut
them down.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
This is why I believe so strongly in transmedicalism.
I'm fully with you.
Kids need to be able to playwith gender.
We just used to call these kidsgoth back in the 90s.
I think that's beautiful.
I love that.
I want every single kid to beable to do that.
I think the problem is whenwe're so quick to medicalize

(40:23):
this.
Kelly, I've used the talkingpoint that you gave last episode
literally three times this weektalking to elected officials,
where you were talking about how, like when you think a lot of
the people that start this, theyjust want to be able to talk
about their feelings and thatmakes a lot of sense to me.
I'm sure there are a lot ofkids that come in there like you

(40:43):
.
Obviously, you transitioned.
You're gorgeous, you're veryfeminine.
We all went down the right pathfor us, but I think it's really
important to you know just tonot immediately medicalize and
to give those kids you knowenough time to figure out who
they are, to make a decision forthem.
And Taff, like you were saying,if someone wants to cross dress
like more power to you, that'sgreat.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
If you don't have to get on these hormones, have your
face and your genitals takenapart like I think that's a good
decision for you.
Yeah, there's a place to?
Um.
Sorry, I was just gonna ask doyou not think there's like any
room for maybe quote-unquote Ihate phrasing it this way but
setting a kid on the right pathbefore they get into like
cross-dressing, you know?
Like maybe being like, oh,maybe you know boys don't wear
dresses and maybe for a whiletrying to like say that they

(41:31):
can't do that stuff and if it isconsistent, then then maybe
allowing them to do that.
I'm not saying like a full-on,tell your kid no for the rest of
their life, but maybe just put,try to set them straight before
they have to go down this transpath or cross-dressing path,
because it's not like an easylife, you know I feel like again
, that is the parent trying to,in a sense, make that kid in

(41:54):
their vision.

Speaker 5 (41:54):
If your kid is showing signs of wanting of
gender diversity or whatever andyou're trying to stop that, I
feel like again that's theparent trying to prevent that
child from being their true self.
My mom, when I was young, forinstance my mom, you know I
wanted to go to school in adress and she told me she gave
me the option.
She said you could go to schoolin the dress and kids may make
fun of you, or you could dresslike a boy and when you can come

(42:16):
, when you come home, you canput the dress on and be safe
here.
And she gave me that choice andI said fuck the kids wearing the
dress.
And I think, giving the kidsthat option, instead of phrasing
it like boys don't wear dresses, I feel like you should instead
phrase it like you know people,let them know the you know the
truth of what will happen if yougo out dressed as a girl and

(42:40):
you're a boy.
People may make fun of you, youmay be called names.
Is that something that you wantto do and give them the choice,
but rather to tell them thatthey're wrong, for that, I feel
like puts it in their head thatthere's something wrong with
them.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
I feel like all of us , probably when we were younger,
probably experimented withgender and really got that
message right away that it waswrong, and we were punished or
at least I did like I will neverforget.
When I started, like you know,my, my parents obviously
punished like physicallypunished me in some really
difficult ways, like when I,would you know, experiment with

(43:16):
gender, and then I remember Iwould like wrap, I would like
try to turn things intoaccessories, right, and my dad
would just hit the roof andstart screaming at me about that
, you know like, because I lookgay, right.
So I don't know if there's likea danger, kelly, of like the
kid not getting the message thatthis stuff is his, that this is

(43:38):
what boys do or maybe I'm naiveabout that, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
Well, I don't know if I just see like too much like
conservative media on my page,but like a lot of people would
say that like, oh, you'regrooming your child if you allow
them to wear a dress or if you,if your child wants to wear a
dress and you tell them, no,that's also grooming you know
what I mean.

Speaker 5 (43:56):
I feel like I'm listening to the child more and
seeing who this person wants tobe.
Kids are not stupid.
I'm tired, I'm like so sick ofpeople acting like kids are dumb
and that they're too young toknow.
Kids know who they are and weall try on cis trans.
Doesn't matter.
We all go through differentphases in our life.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
Allow that child to express themselves and guide
them through that, protectingthem, but don't don't limit them
yeah, I feel like it's so hardbecause it's like how do you
tell, based on those types ofthings we were talking about,
like wearing dresses, how do youknow the kid, that child, wants
to actually transition or it'sjust gonna grow up and be a

(44:35):
regular gay guy, like?
I think there's, becausethere's experimentation, like we
all acknowledge there'sexperimentation, and I think
what it comes down to is, likewhen I think about it, like how
do I, how am I confident thattransition was right for me?
It was time.
I gave myself time and like thefeelings did not go away, they
were persistent, and that waswhat kind of informed me like

(44:56):
hey, this isn't going to changefor me.
I need to make a decision on howI want to set up my life for
like the rest of my future.
Do I want to be a depressed manor do I want to like be the
woman that I really want to setup my life for like the rest of
my future?
Do I want to be a depressed manor do I want to like be the
woman that I really want to be?
And it's like I needed time tofigure that out and it's like
what we want to do is is somehowlike hit that sweet spot of
giving them time and space tofigure this out, but also not

(45:19):
too much time that they're goingthrough puberty and having all
those masculinization effectshappen before like they're ready
to.
So it's it's a hard balance,can.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
I ask a quick question Was there any point
where any of us, like at any age, if someone said, hey, you can
be a girl, you would not havejust said yes, absolutely.
I mean, would y'all have had tothink about it, cause I
wouldn't have no have had tothink about it because I
wouldn't have.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
No, yeah, not me.
So I think, sky, what about you?
I, I would have thought aboutit like, if I'm being perfectly
honest, yeah, like I didn't know.
I wasn't fully confident inthat decision because I didn't
know what life would look likeexactly.
As a woman, I needed to likeapproach it in parts, especially
because, because, like I don'tthink HRT or like transition, is
necessarily an all things equalpath.
Like I think there's risks tolong-term usage that we may not

(46:12):
know all about, but it's like.
It's like I just don't reallythink you can look at transition
as like an all things equaldecision.
Did you know that at five yearsold, though?

Speaker 1 (46:23):
Sure, if someone said like press a button and you
turn into a girl.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Oh my gosh, okay, well, this hypothetical like
yeah, like sure it with noconsequences, but like that's
not life, like no, it's not life, yeah, yeah, I, I think it's.
I get the hypothetical, I think,which is just like, what was
your natural impulse towards?
And, you know, did that turnout to be correct, though, you

(46:49):
know, and Kelly's talking aboutthis like grooming thing and I
think the problem here is reallyjust that there's really mixed
messages from the sort ofprogressive, trans side when,
again, like I think, kids shouldbe able to able to, you know,
express themselves andexperiment and do those things,

(47:10):
um, and I don't think thatnecessarily we have to, like put
them on a medical path as aresult of that right, I think
you can just experiment withoutgoing down the medical route.
And one of the problems is thatone of the ways we've advocated
for ourselves is by saying,like you know I don't know if

(47:30):
you've had this experience I hadthis experience where I was a
gender non-conforming kid.
I came out to my mom and I hadmonths and months of
conversations with her where Iwould go to her and I would make
these appeals based on scienceand I would tell her listen,
this is what the studies say.
Like you know, it's reallygonna work out for me, and I did

(47:54):
that for months and it wasn'tuntil I like broke down crying
in front of her and showed thedepth of my emotion on the issue
, that she really was able toconnect with me and we made
plans to drive six hours out toyou know a city where they'd
have an endocrinologist thatcould work with me, and that was

(48:18):
so important for me to advocatefor myself.
But I also recognize that inadvocating for ourselves
sometimes we create thisimpression that if any kid has,
like a gender non-conformingbehavior, that means that we
need to, like get them on thispath to medicalization, and
that's just not necessarily true.

(48:39):
It needs to be handleddelicately and I think that the
reason conservatives feel likeit's grooming is because a lot
of people aren't willing toacknowledge that like.
Sometimes you might want totransition when you're like a
kid because you don't fullyunderstand what that means, and
then you change your mind as,like, an adolescent.
That wasn't the case for me,maybe that's not the case for

(49:02):
most people, but it's importantthat at the very least we have,
like, an expert, you know adoctor who is experienced in
this, to help give guidance and,frankly, to feel like they can
help give that guidance withouthaving the political pressure
from their peers to just likesign off on everything, and so
that is so hard to get, but itneeds to happen, and as soon as

(49:26):
we have that, I think it's goingto be so much easier to just
say like, yeah, kids canexperiment with gender, totally
fine, cause that doesn'tnecessarily mean that they're
going to be put on a medicalpath and we can trust the system
to make the right decision.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
But I think where the issue comes in and why some
people call it grooming, isbecause do you not think
allowing that experimentationcould eventually lead down to a
medical path in the future,whereas it wouldn't have before?

Speaker 2 (49:52):
um apologies.
We'll edit this out I'lltotally edit.
No, I'm gonna keep it right here, we're just gonna slow down,
it's gonna be beautiful, yeah,um no, I mean, I I don't think
so.
I think it's.

(50:12):
I think it's unlikely that ifyou let a kid, you know, play
with their gender, you know weardifferent clothes, that that's
going to necessarily mean thatthey get on this medical path.
I think that if you talk to adoctor, I think you start
putting them on this medicalpath and I think sometimes the
messaging from the community isnot very helpful, especially if
the kid is having doubts.

(50:34):
A lot of times the message fromthe trans community is just like
transition harder.
It's like get more surgeries,and that might not be helpful
for someone who really is havingdoubts and doesn't understand
that, like you know, is totallyfine to have experimented and to
decide.
It's not for you.
That's also okay.

(50:55):
It's okay if someone wants todetransition.
And I think some people evenfeel like they're locked into
transition because you knowthey've made all these arguments
, they've put in all this work,they've demanded everyone around
them change their pronouns andnow they're like oh no, if I go
back on this, like I'm gonnalook like a fool and I might

(51:16):
hurt like other trans people.
Right, that shouldn't be thecase.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Like you should be able to someone that's tough is
like uh, you know this trumpuniversity scheme that came out.
Uh, you know everyone that wentto trump university like said
initially like, oh, it was thebest thing I ever did.
I got so much value out of it.
And then the lawsuit comes andthese same people are testifying
like, yeah, it was a scam.
I think it caused fallacy witha lot of trans people, like

(51:41):
especially that one dude thatgot a vaginoplasty and then like
decided to detransition a lotof some cost at that point, dude
.
So I I agree with you a hundredpercent in there.
We need more room in ourcommunity for people at
detransition like not everyonethat does this automatically

(52:02):
becomes a chloe cole and like agrifter yes, heard our rights.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
That's not the case and we need to be able to
platform these people withouthaving them like run straight
into the arms of like thecraziest, like gender critical
person who is just going to givethem a microphone.
Like we actually have to haveconversations about this and not
just shun these people Ahundred percent plastic.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
How do you feel?
How do you feel?
How do you feel?

Speaker 2 (52:25):
yeah, about which part on that, yeah, just jump on
in well, I okay.

Speaker 5 (52:30):
So I'm still in my head on the um on trans kids,
because again I think that it's,um like, really important to
also because, like, each transperson's journey is unique to
them.
You know, and I've had twofriends, two really close
friends of mine, that havedetransitioned and both of them
ended up transitioning back tofemale trans.

(52:53):
They were assigned male atbirth, transition to female and
then mid-transition, transitionback to male and then transition
back to female again, and nowwe're completely happy as female
and, um like, the thing withthat is is that a lot of both of
their backgrounds wereconservative families were
shaming them, so that was whatwas responsible for their
detransition, and I think thatwe're not crediting that enough.

(53:17):
I feel like we see detransitionstories and we're like, oh,
they immediately regretted it.
We're not thinking about theirhome, who was whispering in
their ear, and the fact that itwas conservative rhetoric that
was shaming them.
Again, I do feel that, yes, insome instances that it's
probably best that we maybe set,like I said, stricter rules or

(53:38):
checks and balances for kidsgoing on the medical path, but
also, I don't feel like weshould be able to overstep that.
I think that's something thatshould be between the trans
child, the parent and thedoctors Because, like for me,
I'm glad personally that Ididn't go on hormones super
young because I ended up gettingthe vaginoplasty and I had a

(54:00):
lot to work with and it made myresults much better and
congratulations very happywhereas, like, there are other
people who went on very youngand did not have a lot of growth
and it made their surgery muchmore difficult.
So there are pros and cons toboth.
Again, I wouldn't want somebodyto tell that person though no,
you can't do that because Ididn't do it and I don't think

(54:21):
it was right.
Like you know what I mean.
I feel like we're oversteppinga lot here by feeling that we
have the right to decide forother trans people how they
transition yeah, I just oh god,you know I am.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
I'm gonna start a little bit of a public fight
today.
I agree with you that that's ahuge portion of it.
But I also think some of thesedecred transitioners I think
they're crossies to find out.
They just don't like theeffects of of hormones in their
body, like take ray gp I'm sorrythat dude is the most obvious
crossy, like transvestite crossdresser on the entire planet.

(54:57):
Like he says he's on estrogenforever.
It's like what?
Two milligrams or something, soyou can make sure to like jack
off the entire time like god.
Some of these people get on hrtand it's.
It's distressing for thembecause it's about like sex,
it's not about their identityand that's okay.
If you want to go be a crossy,more power to you.

(55:18):
But I mean like I don't thinkit's all just conservatives.
I think some people go downthis path of finding out if
there's like a woman inside andthere's just not, and that's
okay, like they should be ableto go back there's a lot of
fetishizing it.

Speaker 5 (55:33):
Yeah, I do see that a lot too, and that is like I'm
able to clock that immediatelyand I do have an issue with that
because it's like, bitch, don'tbe trying to get in my circle.
But I think like we need to.
That comes in with the checksand balances of like.
We need to set clear, conciserules and boundaries in the
trans community that protecttrans people and also protect

(55:57):
non-trans people, and hopefullywe could get to that point at
some point.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
That's a true point.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
I agree, yeah, I mean yeah, and not necessarily to
like muddy the waters, but I Ithink that it's complicated too.
Like you could have people thatthere is a sexuality that goes
with their transition, but it'snot the motivator, it's not why
there's a conflict born out ofit.
I mean that that connects to myLike.

(56:22):
I definitely would say like forme, like I have some of that
auto sexuality, but that's notwhy I transitioned.
I transitioned because Icouldn't be happy as a man, as a
male, in society, and it's like, does that mean like you know,
because I share somesimilarities to Ray GP that I
couldn't transition?
No, it just means that thereshould be standards, gatekeeping

(56:46):
, just like we're saying.
But I'm just trying to, youknow, build on that standard and
say like there's a lot ofnuances and individual
components that go intotransition.
And I think the bottom linethat we're all reaching here is
that there needs to be somecriteria and time to figure
those things out and to likework with that individual to
really assess hey, do you wantto be some criteria and time to
figure those things out and tolike work with that individual
to really assess?

(57:07):
Hey, do you want to be a womanat 30, 40, 50 years old, because
this stays with you.
You know you do this and it's ait's a direction you're moving
in your life and you got to besigning up for a lot more than I
don't know.
Some short-term sexualfulfillment or whatever you know
is is motivating some of thisyou know group, and so it's like
I just think better therapy andmore knowledge on the effects

(57:33):
are really what like need to beproliferated and understood so
that we don't have, like you allmentioned, certain
detransitioners that you knowplatform and then speak out
against it.
I mean, I saw this firsthand atthe Gens gen spec conference
that I went to.
That was like chloe cole uh,actually she wasn't there.
I don't think she was there, um, but like other detransitioners

(57:54):
, were there prisha was there, adifferent one, um, and it's
just like when you see the harmon them, like they clearly
weren't good candidates but theywere pushed in this direction.
So there, there needs to besome reforms, and so I'm kind of
sympathetic to their, to whatthey're saying.
I just I just want to make surewe minimize the collateral
damage as these voices comeforward and that you know we see

(58:16):
that transition does work forsome.
It's just a matter of figuringout who that is and
understanding, like you know, anindividualized approach, how to
help that person arrive at thatconclusion.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Skylar, Donald Trump gets elected.
He creates the perfect transpolicy, fixes the economy,
deports all illegal immigrants.
This is your dream.
What's your ideal if Trump getselected?
This is your dream.
What's your ideal if Trump getselected?

Speaker 4 (58:45):
Oh God, I don't know.
I mean, it's definitely I'm not, like I'm not concerned about
immigration, like illegalimmigrants aren't a problem for
me.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
That's not a problem for me.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
I mean I don't have anything to really speak on
there, I don't have a lot ofknowledge on that, yeah, but
when it comes to guess liketrans rights, like I would like
to see like a sort of a returnto kind of what things used to
sort of be um, and so what Imean by that is like not all the
way, but like partially backfrom like funneling trans women

(59:20):
or trans women into men, intowomen's prisons that aren't
transitioned or convicted withsexual, you know issues and then
like things like that, like Idon't want to see that happening
because I think that's where,like you know, things are kind
of rubbing up against you know,the political or like the
society's viewpoint of transpeople.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
And so, in terms of like weighing the sort of trans
stuff that I know we've liketalked a lot about versus all of
the other issues going into theelection, you know, would you
say in general, you find, likeDonald Trump's you know
positions, seated positions,it's we can get into it like I
don't know how much of hisstated positions he like truly
believes in or is going to enact.

(01:00:03):
Uh, but you know you'reweighing these.
Are you really seeing like therest of his positions as being
like maybe good, maybe bad, orlike are there some that you
like are generally in favor of?
Um, yeah, how does that weighout?
How do you do that?

Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
I'm not a political person.
I honestly was.
I'm still on the fence.
To be honest, I'm like going todecide the day of, but like I
think for me it's just um, well,okay, short answer is no, I
don't really like hispersonality.
I, like I mentioned, I votedfor biden in the first, in the
last election.
It's just that I'm worriedabout the, the continual swing

(01:00:41):
of progressivism for four moreyears.
Like I just think there's apendulum here and I want to have
some pushback on that directionso that the end result of the
blowback isn't so bad, because Isee the direction yeah, with
detransitioners and those typesof things and I get a little
concerned.
I, I hear you and I again.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
We're gonna be friends, no matter what.
Don't kick me off the podcast no, no, no, we love you too much,
scott I really feel where you'recoming from with that like um,
you know, this is my problemwith trump, though he's not a
policy guy like let's takesomething you said that I agree
with, which is that our borderis a serious problem.

(01:01:21):
You know, like I'm not comingat this from like a xenophobic
perspective.
It's 100% a national securityperspective.
Like down there on the southernborder we've got so many
crossings a day.
You know, the asylum system isclearly broken.
We don't know who's coming intothe country.
The asylum system is clearlybroken.
We don't know who's coming intothe country.
You know, one of the storieswe've just forgotten to memory

(01:01:52):
hold from the Bush era issomeone coming into the United
States with a dirty bomb withthe intention of attacking us
and basically spreadingradiological material in one of
our major cities.
So I'm really like sympatheticfor a Natsak perspective to this
goal of fixing the border.
My problem with donald trump isnothing he like plans to do
from a policy perspective willactually um address that ways.
The reason the border is brokenis because we don't have enough
judges.
The judges here inmassachusetts have actually been

(01:02:13):
uh dispatched down to thesouthern border to help
adjudicate some of these casesas they're coming through.
Donald Trump wasn't going to dothat.
He was to build a wall from seato shining sea right.
So the problem, over and overagain, is this is my job and I
do know a thing or two aboutthis.
And when it comes to like theeconomy, his plan for the

(01:02:33):
economy last time was one ofreasons inflation got so high
high like just uncheckedspending deficit uh, deficits
skyrocketing basically shootingbazookas of cash at the stock
market.
There are so many people havemade tons of money by just like
following whatever the fed wasinvesting in, investing their
money in during covid, becausethey were shooting so much cash

(01:02:54):
there, you couldn't help but getvery, very rich.
Doing it so like it's justevery single like strategy he
tries to implement.
It doesn't seem like it'sskillfully done.
I'm with you on beingfrustrated with a lot of the
progressive excesses, but itjust seems like there's a real
competence issue that goes alongwith getting the republicans

(01:03:14):
into government, and that's whatpushes me away.
I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
I mean, can I ask you something?
Yeah, of course it sounds likeon the issue of protectionism,
you see some value inmanufacturing home On the issue
of the border, just a realsecurity issue with illegal
immigrants and our broken asylumsystem which is costing us lots
of money, hurting actual, realasylum seekers because we can't

(01:03:39):
process all these people fastenough.
You know you have these worriesabout the excesses of the
progressive movement but at theend of the day, your feeling is
that like trump, he's just not apolicy guy and like this is all
kind of lip service.
I'm gonna, I think like thefact that it's all kind of lip
service is the only reason toconsider Trump Really.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
That's very smart actually.
Yeah, because.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
OK, I'm going to annoy all like the Trumples
Trump appeals to like a lot offucking idiots who like don't
understand anything aboutpolitics and who are, like you
know, big, beautiful wall.
That sounds amazing, like that'sgoing to protect us.
Um, they like imagine him likewalking into like a boardroom
with, like Putin and Xi and justlike slapping his like fat

(01:04:27):
orange cock on the table andsuddenly, you know, american
foreign policy is solved.
In reality, that doesn't happen.
And also, in reality, like whencandidates run on these sort of
arguments, then they get intooffice and then they are much
more responsive to wealthierdonors, people who are more

(01:04:49):
educated, people who areactually writing policy.
I think that you can sort ofsee that there's a political
meta which has developed where,like, the Republican Party is
willing to run this candidatewho is quite, he's like,
narcissistic I don't know if hereally has, like any deep values
besides personalself-aggrandizement but he gets

(01:05:12):
votes and the Republicans, whoare powerful and who have money,
understand that if Trump getsinto office, this guy, who
doesn't really have a ton ofstrong opinions of his own, is
going to be able to sign off onpolicy that they've carefully
crafted.

Speaker 1 (01:05:30):
This is what crypto wants to do.
They're a perfect example.
This is what.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
Elon wants to do at 100% and I think if you look at
his presidency, you know, in2016, I think that that's what
you see for the most part.
Like you're right, he wasinflationary, you know, and I
certainly cannot give him creditfor that, but a lot of his
strategy came from, basically,republican operatives who are a

(01:05:55):
lot smarter than he is and toldhim, like you know, appoint
these judges, they will rule onChevron, they'll rule on, you
know, roe, and suddenly theRepublicans are winning these
victories.
I think that, if you are, ifyour number one issue with Trump
is, like he's not a policy guy,I think maybe that's not so

(01:06:15):
important and maybe it's moreimportant that you care about
the immigration and theprotectionism and you know the
excesses of progressivism.
Honestly, I, if I were in yourposition, I would let that weigh
more on me the last time around.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
Like, what was he effective on?
What was Trump's really like?
Let's look at just policy topolicy.
What does Biden have?
He's got Inflation ReductionAct that was effective.
Chips was effective for gettingstuff back here.
Domestically we loweredinflation faster than any other
country in the world.
I think that when it came tothe war supporting Ukraine

(01:06:49):
A-plus for that.
Rolling out the vaccine A-plusfor that.
Supporting Israel, I'll givethem a C-plus.
They're solid policyaccomplishments there.
When I look at trump, I meanlike I don't mean this snarkily
what can you point to?
Is a an accomplishment of hispresidency?
Warp speed.
My husband works in thisindustry.

(01:07:10):
That money was allocated farbefore he got into office.
If I thought he deserved creditfor all of that, I would give
it to him.
I don't think it's fair.
Like frank worked on themoderno portion of that, like
these times these were, this was10 years in development ahead
of that.
So like, what is the policythat he accomplished last time
real?

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
yeah, I don't know if I would say there's like a ton,
I think you know, like youalready mentioned, I think
there's prison reform.
I think that's fair.
Yeah, I think that if you are abig fan of donald trump, it
probably points the fact thatyou had like lower border
crossings you can like takecredit for.
That is maybe questionable.
Um, I think you would point tothe fact that there was so much

(01:07:53):
inflation towards the latterhalf of his presidency as being
a covet thing or, you know,towards the very end of it.
I think you would say it's justlike a COVID thing and, um, you
know, there wasn't much way ofgetting out of that.
I think they would point to thefacts that, like it or not,
there were no new wars.
Um, you know, and maybe if awar in Ukraine had, you know,

(01:08:14):
broken out, I think I would haveloved Donald Trump to make the
same policy decisions that bidendid because, frankly, the biden
administration handled ukraineextremely well being able to
utilize old technology to, youknow, massively slow down and
cost one of our biggestgeopolitical rivals tons of
money.
Probably slowed down theinvasion of Taiwan, you know.

(01:08:35):
Fantastic, I think.
Maybe, if you do care a lotabout Israel.
Trump is a lot more muscular onIsrael than Kamala Harris, and
so I don't know.
I think it's interesting thatbetween you and Skyler you have
this sort of duality where oneperson is like you know, I'm not

(01:08:56):
super interested in the policy,but like I just think it's
going to be a cultural change.
And then, brianna, one personis like you know, I'm not super
interested in the policy, butlike I just think it's going to
be a cultural change, and then,brianna, you're like you know,
I'm only interested in what hesays policy-wise.
Um, this seems like you mightalign on him, at least in a
perfect world.
Oh, of course I do.
And I'll say election denialismreally bad.
Yeah, really, that's my numberone thing play against donald
trump.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
I did not like his trans ban in the military, nope,
that whole thing.
There you go because like well,so I was like I was kind of
okay with it until I found outthat it was all a unilateral
across the board.
I thought it was just combat,but it was non-combat and combat
.
So even like intelligence rolesthat had zero like impact, of
being like on medication orwhatever, are impacted now and,

(01:09:38):
and it's like I don't reallywant to see that, but it's like
what am I left?
Like this is where I reallyjust don't like the two party
system.
Like my real problems lie morewith, like the structure of our
politics than it has to do.
That Like produces these, yeah,like these candidates.
It's like that's where I'm justlike and I think we can all

(01:09:58):
agree on that like neither ofthese candidates are perfect and
it's like we're too.
I mean, I feel like this is theyou know lesser of two evils
type of thing again, and it'slike I don't know, it's like I
will say too, the other thingthat has me going for kamala is
that it looks like the house andthe senate are projected to be
Republican, which makes mescared.

(01:10:19):
If you know it's all Republican.
Yes, and he already signed likethe most executive orders Like
I forget how many it was, but itwas an insane number.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Can you imagine a Supreme Court that was more
against this?
Anyway, I want plastic andcalories.

Speaker 5 (01:10:34):
Yes, Well, I'm 1,015 bajillion percent against Trump
when.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
Hold on, I'm writing this down, the number 1,015
billion percent.
Okay, we've got.

Speaker 5 (01:10:50):
My ass will be out of the country before January when
that happens.
But you're Jewish, you can moveto Israel.
Can I come room with you?
I just I it's I don't.
I don't understand.
I know that a few of you areconsidering trump, but I just

(01:11:11):
don't understand how I mean itis.
So he's so transparent and clearof how he will dismantle this
country and there is no benefitto it.
There really isn't.
He's going to destroy theeconomy.
He's going to take away transrights.
He's going to undo gay rights.
He's going to take away allwomen's rights that they already
have.
Roe is just the tip of theiceberg for that one.

(01:11:31):
I mean, why would we want toeven entertain that?
He's even said day one he willbe a dictator.
Again, we want to evenentertain that?
He's even said day one he willbe a dictator again.
Four years of kamala is a smallprice to pay for another free
and fair election rather than adictatorship that you will just
be.
I mean again, look at nazigermany.
Do we really, did we forgetabout this?
Do we really need a reminder ofthis?

(01:11:52):
This is what dictatorship lookslike, and and even earlier we
were talking about that stupidanti-trans commercial.
That's propaganda.
That's what Hitler did with theJews.
This is what he's doing withtrans people.
We are the current target thathe's using to manipulate his
dumb ass followers.
We are the big bad wolf thathe's created, and that's what

(01:12:13):
Hitler did with the Jews.
We are the vermin poisoning thecountry.
He's using the same terminologythat Hitler used and I am sorry,
I just don't see a world where,even if he had one policy, that
was a pro voting for a Hitlerwannabe.
He idolizes people like Putin.
He idolizes Hitler, and hisentire fan base pretty much is

(01:12:35):
waving a giant fucking swastika.
And then there's people who arelike well, I just don't know.
I don't know.
I think he might be good Really, because, as a Jew who
understands history, I don'tthink he will be good and I know
for a fact that all women andtrans people and gay people and
black people and Jews andwhoever is not Christian, white,
cisgender, hetero male will beroyally fucked if he gets an
office.
Christian, white, cisgender,hetero male will be royally

(01:12:56):
fucked if he gets in office, andso will the entirety of our
country, and not just ourcountry but the world, because
he will be teaming up with theother dictator, fascist nutjobs
in this world and they willessentially take over and invade
and you know they're powerhungry.
They will stop.

Speaker 4 (01:13:15):
It will be the end.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
He does seem to have an alliance with, uh,
authoritarians.
That I find really, reallydisturbing.
Um, yeah, kelly, you haven'ttalked for a while.
I want you to jump in.
What do you think, girl?

Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
yeah, I mean I it's tough for me just because I I
feel like you guys are so muchmore educated on politics and
all like this lingo and likehalf the time it just sounds
like mumbo jumbo to me.
It kind of like got a lot ofstuff that plastic was sitting
on, just like it's the verybasic understandings that I have
when it comes to like women'srights and roe versus wade, and
just like how a lot of the waytrump talks about trans people

(01:13:49):
does kind of remind me of thatword.
I can just see the hatredgrowing um more and more in this
country and just not feelingsafe when I leave the house half
the time.
So to me I'm just voting forthe person that stands for
democracy and seems like theystand for what I think America
should stand for.
So, yeah, that's just where I'mat.

(01:14:09):
I don't when you guys go intolike details about like policies
and like the Senate and stuff,like I have no idea half the
time.
But honestly, though I feellike I represent a majority of
Americans, because I think a lotof Americans are like me we
don't really know the in-depthof this stuff.
It's kind of just like we knowwhat we see on TV, we know what
we read on Twitter and that'skind of how people are voting, I

(01:14:30):
think.

Speaker 4 (01:14:32):
There's this thing that's like I can't remember
where I heard this, but politicstakes place locally, like what
you see around you, who yourfriends are and what you like
come into contact with, likethat your world shapes a lot of
like how you think about this.
So, like I live in likeconservative land in Virginia
and it's like I get a lot oflike disproportionately biased

(01:14:54):
information from that direction,and so it's like I, in my view,
like if it wasn't for brie, Iwould think that trump is gonna
just win in a landslide, and I'mkind of glad that it's more
like, even because I'm like I Imean, I'm not even sure about
trump either and like hearingplastic talk, it's like you know
it is, it is compelling to belike, yeah, maybe you know

(01:15:15):
kamala is the way forward hereand I've just, you know, been
looking at the wrong things.
I don't know, and there's justI'm always an open book and I
just I appreciate hearing allthese perspectives.
Can I ask?

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
a really honest question sky and again like
reference, no matter what, butlike january 6th.
How do you feel about that?
Because this was like january6th happened.
I just worked the presidentialelection and then, exhausted, I
just worked the Georgia but theSenate races I was so tired, I
was so grouchy and then theRepublicans led an insurrection

(01:15:48):
against the Capitol.
I sat there and just weptopenly that day and I think,
like you know me well enough toknow I'm not some crazy
anti-Republican extremist here,like you know me well enough to
know I'm not some crazyanti-Republican extremist here.
My job requires me to work withthe left and the right,
depending on who contracts meout, and you know I treasure
constructive relationships withRepublicans.
But for anyone that's just anAmerican that was such an

(01:16:13):
incredibly dark day to seepeople invading our capitals
with zip ties, like planning tokidnap members of Congress and
deny the election.
I mean, how does that make youfeel?
Because I agree with Plastic.

Speaker 4 (01:16:29):
I think the Republicans will try that again
and be successful this time, inmy view, and be successful this
time in my view Well, I guessyou know I mean hard to answer
that because you know I have noconnection to and I don't know
anyone that was part of thoseriots or anything like that but
I kind of view it as more of abroader trend of radicalization

(01:16:52):
that's happening in all sorts ofspaces in our country.
It's not like this is aRepublican-specific phenomenon.
It was that day, but there havebeen far-left radical things
that have happened.
I mean you have radical groupson both sides Proud Boys, antifa
, whatever.
I mean there's like it's justwhere you are and I will admit
like, yeah, that was a prettydepressing day, for I think most

(01:17:14):
Americans saw that and werelike, yeah, we condemn that, but
again it, you know you're notthere, you're not prepared for
it, all you're.
You know you're watching itfrom wherever you are and you're
like, oh gosh, like what'shappening to our country.
What is disappointing is thattrump didn't speak out more,
more openly against it.
I, you know, I'm absolutelythere with you all, but it's
like what we really need is toreturn to civility and dialogue

(01:17:38):
and having open conversationsabout these things and make
politics discussable again,because, quite frankly, I'm
scared to talk about it anywhereI go and it's like that's not a
good thing, that's not likethat's not the kind of culture
you want here, and that's thekind of culture that trump is
grooming us for, because he'seven come out and said that he
will punish, at lengths thathave never been seen before his

(01:18:01):
words, anybody who was againsthim and that goes for all the
democrat politicians and peoplein senate and anybody who voted
against him.

Speaker 5 (01:18:09):
He will come down on and either arrest them, have
them executed, whatever he evenused inflammatory language the
other day, threatening to killLiz Cheney, like the things he's
saying.
Just you cannot have somebodythat disgusting and psychotic in
power constantly ratcheting upthe inflammatory rhetoric.
Yes and not just, and we allknow that.
If god forbid that piece ofshit got in office, he's out,

(01:18:33):
but JD Vance will be in power.
And JD Vance is equally asfucking scary.
And, yes, you have all theseother people under him, and
Trump was a genius putting thesepeople in place.
During his last term, he putpeople in place that are his
little yes.
Men where he could get anythinghe wants done and he will be
absolved of any crime.
He's a 34 time convicted felonrapist.

(01:18:53):
How can anybody in their rightmind be like you know what?
I like him, though.
He's just, he's funny.
I think he should run thecountry like.
This.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
Man is demented and sick and evil, and you may not
like kamala, but again, she'snot a horrible person and four
years of her being a normalpresident would be way better
than a dictatorship under thatson of a bitch well, I heard
trump quoting recently the alienenemies act of 1798 which, like

(01:19:21):
we know who trump is, he's notlike reading a book and like
coming across this likeinteresting bit of war, someone
who's told him about this andbasically, alien enemies act of
1798 I believe it's what wasused to like intern japanese
people during world war ii andbasically it allows you to say,
like an ounce of a country isyou know your enemy and then you

(01:19:42):
can start targeting people whomight be like spies within your
country or going to undermineyou domestically.
And that kind of rhetoric.
Also, like Skylar, I don't knowif you know anything about,
like the false electors scheme,but like it's more than just
like violence.
On the day of january 6th,donald trump had been part of a

(01:20:04):
scheme that had beenorchestrated since, I think,
beginning like before he,actually, you know, before
election night, november 6th, um, and it was to be able to send
like a group of false electorsto potentially install him as
president, overriding the, youknow, the will of the people or

(01:20:25):
the will of the government.
Even if I agree with, likecertain policies of his, or even
if I believe that, like if hegets in power, he's ultimately
not going to be able to like, door act on the sort of like
nonsense things that he says,even if I think he's going to

(01:20:46):
moderate this.
There's a level of chaos inTrump that really bothers me,
and for me it is like a matterof stability where, like I would
love you know, my politics arepretty anti-progressive I would
love for there to be ameaningful reform on
progressivism, but I thinkthrusting the potential at least

(01:21:08):
to thrust the country intototal chaos on the whim of like
one man is just beyond the paleand for me, like you know,
election day, that is the oneissue that is weighing on me
more than anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
I just I've got two things to say before we close
this out.
Taff A I've wanted to tell youthis whole show and I love your
hair like that, I think it'sabsolutely gorgeous Really
really pretty B.
I just want to note the ironyof the woman who is so famous
for being, like, skeptical aboutdemocracy, the fact that
democracy and the threat ofdemocracy that Trump presents,

(01:21:47):
and that's what gets you onboard.
I'm happy you're here with us,but I just think that's a little
funny.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Well, I can tell you about the psychology behind it.
It's really that I love orderand I deeply fear chaos and I
see, like you said, lots ofcriticisms of democracy.
I bring them up constantly.
At the end of the day, order isjust so much more important and
stability Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
Plastic.
It's been so good to see youtoday.
Thank you.
You were the first guest we'veever had on dollcast.

Speaker 5 (01:22:20):
Well, I'm honored.

Speaker 1 (01:22:21):
Thank you so much for having me can I say you're
prettier in person than you are.
You are so gorgeous, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
I was on your twitter and I was like what the heck?

Speaker 5 (01:22:32):
yeah, thank you.
All.
Of you are gorgeous too, and itwas wonderful to be here yeah,
it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:22:38):
Before we go, can I just ask we're about to do a
segment talking about the needfor a kinder trans community.
Just very briefly, becausewe're already at an hour and a
half what?
What are kind of your thoughtsabout the trans community?
Does it ever bum you out thatwe are so mean to each other,
for lack of a better word, yeah,the trans community is just a

(01:22:58):
total shit show.

Speaker 5 (01:22:59):
Everyone's in that.
I think that we definitely needto be kinder.
I've always felt that way.
I've never really been likevery involved in the trans
community.
Growing up, I didn't have a lotof trans friends because of the
, the cattiness yeah, thecattiness, the like.
You need to transition this way, you need to do that, you
should get that, and it's likegirl, fuck off.

(01:23:19):
So I think that we're gettingthere.
I've actually feel like we arestarting to unite more.
I don't know if I'm the onlyone seeing that, but I feel like
there is more of like kind of ayeah, a little bit more of like
a community now than there waswe want to be a community with
you and you're welcome on thedoll cast anytime well, thank

(01:23:40):
you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
I'd love to do a like more casual episode with you,
one that's like a little baby,like we've got.
Our third topic is fashion.
I feel like I want to ask aboutyour cheekbones.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
I want to hold this about your cheekbones, oh my god
they look, look like VictoriaJustices.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
They look so prominent.
They're my mommy's cheekbones.

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Love me.
Thank you for coming.

Speaker 4 (01:24:06):
Thank you.
Next up, let's dive into alittle bit of reflection.
We're talking about why westarted Dollcast.
The main reason was simple wewanted to showcase that trans
women are drum roll mostlynormal women.
We wanted to move away from thesensationalism that

(01:24:28):
proliferates online and showthat we navigate everyday life,
career hurdles, relationshipsand everything else just like
anyone else, but with our ownunique twist.
The point is to de-radicalizethe conversation around trans
experiences.
So why did we launch Dollcast?
I'll start with you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:45):
Well, it's Kelly's idea.
Kelly, this is all your problem.
You came up with this schemeoriginally.
So she was talking how shewanted to start a podcast, and
one of the reasons I loved Kellyinitially is she was willing to
talk about this distance, umthe difference that she feels
between non-binary people andbinary trans women.

(01:25:07):
And I want to be clear, likeit's important to me, like one
of my really best friends onearth is dana simpson uh, dana,
the unicorn um youebe, and theMagical Unicorn, the cartoonist
behind that.
Her partner's non-binary andthey've been over to my home.
Of course, I want to treat themwith respect, but at the same
time, there's a public policydifference and, kelly, you were

(01:25:30):
one of the few people that werewilling to go forward and try to
start that conversation Notthat you did it as skillfully as
it could be done, but you hadthe guts to get out there and do
it and I just I want a spacewhere we, as trans women, can
sit down and legitimately talkthrough this stuff without the

(01:25:52):
progressive fringe pushing ustowards the maximalist position.
I.
I think trans people deserve acommunity and that's part of why
I wanted to start this show.

Speaker 3 (01:26:03):
I think that it's been for a long time that the
non-binary community has reallywanted to push that they are
transgender and that they are nodifferent than us.
And it's frustrating to mebecause I just think we're two
separate things and if we wereexactly the same thing, we would
have the same exact name.
Like there's a reason they callthemselves non-binary and not
trans, even though they want toact like it's a subcategory of

(01:26:26):
being trans.
I just don't think it is,especially when you're not going
on any form of HRT or makingany type of medical transition.
I think a year ago I definitelyhad a lot more hatred for
non-binary people.
I mean, you can definitely findclips of me saying that I that
I just don't think they exist.
I think it's that maybe I justdon't have an understanding of

(01:26:46):
exactly what non-binary is or atleast I didn't back then
because when you lump yourselfwith being trans, it makes me
think a transition is takingplace right, because you that's
literally what trans is likestands for, I mean I don't think
we started dollcast, though, tolike.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
I didn't start it to like make a screed against
non-binary people.
I didn't see any space for usto have a community as trans
women where we could have honestconversations.
That's that, literally it.
And what I am so tired ofpersonally is this like all of
y'all are my sisters.
Like, when we talk, everysingle time the show is over, I

(01:27:26):
feel energized, I feel happy, Ifeel like I'm talking to people
that understand me, even if wedon't all agree on stuff, and
what I wanted to build was aplace in the trans community
People could go to look formeaningful connections with
other people that were basedmore about what we agree on and
what our shared values are,rather than, like, enforcing

(01:27:50):
this fringe progressive point ofview on maximalist trans
politics.
So that's kind of my point ofview on that.
How do y'all feel?

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
politics.
So that's that was kind of mypoint of view on that.
How do y'all feel?
Yeah, I think it's funny thatyou say that because in some
ways I feel like I'm coming atit from the opposite direction
of you, brianna, where, likewhen I started like talking
about politics, I leaned muchmore into a kind of like
conservative worldview and kindof like what kelly is saying,
where, like she used to be likemore down on non-binary, I think

(01:28:20):
I was also like leaning muchmore into the conservative side
and I think when I look back onthat experience, I feel like
there was so much moreopportunity to make an
affirmative case for my own likeexistence and my own like

(01:28:40):
personhood and rights and alsomy own ability to like be so
much more than just like whatthe progressive, you know,
discourse has pegged us as, andso I really wanted to talk like
a little bit less about politicsand talk like more just about

(01:29:01):
cultural stuff and get throughthe values which are really
animating all of our lives thatare kind of to the side of the
really divisive topics that likeI think for me I mean I
wouldn't say like I was ever, Idon't think I was ever like not
for the non-binary um identitynecessarily.

Speaker 4 (01:29:23):
I think it's just like for me figuring out like
how can we make policy that issustainable for trans people,
not like not saying we're makingpolicy, but like what does that
look like?
Like exploring like the ins andouts of what makes our
community tick and like whatworks for us.
Because it's like I don't know,I just see a lot, of, a lot of

(01:29:45):
people that aren't making thetransition get swept up in our
same like identification.
And then people are like, oh no, we don't want to, we don't, we
don't support that Like.
I'll never forget when I wastalking to a friend recently and
she was at her p flag, which isan organization, um, that like
helps you know trans people orgender non-conforming you know

(01:30:07):
anyone adjacent in that space?
Um, talk about trans stuff andlike figure themselves out.
And there are people she waslike yeah, there's like
literally so many.
There's about like a quarter toa half of the people have done
nothing to transition.
They're just completely therelike presentation.
They're like I'm transgender,I'm really a woman inside, and

(01:30:28):
they haven't done anything totransition.
No one wants to say anythingnegative because they don't want
to hurt their feelings.
But then, like everyone's like,yeah, you're so valid.
And it's like, but you can'tmake policy on that.
And it's like, and I mean, Iget where they're coming from.
You know, it's like they wantto, you know, support them, they
want to help them.
But what does that actuallylook like?

(01:30:50):
Is it just validating or is itlike well, let's help you get a
plan together?
You know, get yourselfindependent and figure out how
to transition.
And so for me, yeah, dolcast isthat space to kind of help
conceptualize and understand howto make transition work in like
a tenable way.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
No, I fully you are going to agree with this as well
as you, kelly is.
There's a message out therethat politics is the solution to
any stress with transition.
Right, like, if you're notbeing treated well as a trans
woman, well, the answer is justto wait to the communist future
that is inevitably coming, wheregender will be abolished and
all this stuff is going to work.

(01:31:35):
And it's like, no, you know,actually, if you're really
depressed and transition hasn'tfixed all your problems, maybe
you need to go to therapy, maybeyou need to work on some stuff
with your presentation.
If you are transitioning, andsomething I feel like your
generation, um, uh, has reallybeen cheated out of, is that
kind of outcome focusedcommunity that will sit there

(01:31:58):
Like I remember when I firsttransitioned and this was, oh my
God, this was a long time agobut like you would go to a
support group and there would bea form that you would fill out
and would say like give thisgirl, you know, like feedback on
her appearance, be kind andcompassionate.
And you would sit there and saylike okay, this is something you
can do better, this ispassionate.
And you would sit there and saylike, okay, this is something

(01:32:19):
you can do better.
This is something you can dobetter.
I think it's really hard todaybecause we're not getting that
basic culture that tells you howto integrate and go out there
and live your best life, whereit's not just about being a
trans woman, right, um, I thinkit's all about this fringe
progressive political project todestroy gender.
That is just it's it's.
I don't think it's why any ofus transition.

(01:32:41):
So I just wanted to make acommunity where girls that do
want to integrate can come hangout.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
I was just saying it tells me that they want to like
abolish gender.
Because I think a lot of likenon-binary people feel that way,
where they're like, oh, what'swrong with creating a genderless
society?
I like gender, I like there'slike men and women, and that's
not to say non-binary peoplecan't exist.
But if you want to make thewhole world like a genderless
society, I just feel like you'rekind of like killing sex, like
in general, in a way, becauselike, what is there not to say

(01:33:08):
like non-binary people aren'tattractive?
But I just feel like the wholedynamic of masculinity and
femininity is the basis of sexfor so many people.
Besides, if you're gay orlesbian, obviously, but even
then, like lesbians areattracted to femininity and half
the time there's a moremasculine and more feminine same
with gay men and theirrelationships.
So I I don't know.
To me, creating a genderlesssociety isn't really something I

(01:33:30):
would ever want.
It feels like erasure.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
Honestly, that's.
My entire reason oftransitioning was to get out of
one gender binary and be intothe other, so they're literally
talking about erasing the thingthat I consider my life's
mission, if that makes senseit's so interesting to hear you
guys talk about this.

Speaker 2 (01:33:51):
Um, I guess I didn't even realize like, going into
this, you had like very specifictopics you really wanted a
place to express.
I think one of the things that Iliked about you know, kelly and
brianna, you really broughtthis to the forefront and skylar
, you continue to bring it everyweek is like this radical

(01:34:11):
honesty and I like that, briannaand kelly, like I see you on
Twitter and you are so willingto take stands that are not
necessarily going to be popular.
I think that a lot of our besttopics are opportunities where
there is something that is realand it's deep and it affects

(01:34:33):
everyone, but it's not talkedabout.
And it's not talked aboutbecause everyone's afraid of
offending people, and I think weneed to have conversations
about things like non-binarypeople and like the differences
in how non-binary and binarytrans people experience
dysphoria.
Like that's an uncomfortableconversation because it's easier

(01:34:55):
to pretend that we're allexperiencing the exact same
thing and need the exact samethings.
But maybe it's better if we canreally meet people where
they're at and we can likereconcile these elements of the
trans community or of culture ingeneral, which are like a
little bit uncomfortable, buthave just been seething under
the surface and causing us somuch distress, because we see

(01:35:19):
them manifested in politics andwe can't talk about it and they
just keep on happening.
So that's why I'm so excitedfor this.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26):
How can this be a community, taff, if we can't
have a conversation like how canit be a community if the
maximalist view is the only onethat's out there?
You know like, uh, look lastweek's episode.
We all talked about how flawedwe think the idea of agp is.
We think something is there.
I think all of us would agreethe model is insufficient sky.

(01:35:48):
I saw you like me on liking mycomment on twitter, talking
about agp being like a zombiebite where if you get one little
hint of it, it's all thatdefines you.
Like that's the way some peopletalk about it and you know, I
know that's not the way y'allfeel, but there's an entire
segment out there that justwants to pretend like this
doesn't even exist and that'smaximally enforced.

(01:36:09):
How is this a community if,like Taff, you and I can have
shared an experience is so deepand so fundamental to who we are
and we can't, like, reallydeconstruct what it means or
where we need to go from here?
I just think so much of thetrans community is based on

(01:36:30):
groupthink and silence and Ijust it's not what I want to
build together.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
That's how I feel.
I just it's not what I want tobuild together.
That's how I feel and it's likeit's so much more than just,
like you know, we have likethese specific topics in mind,
but I think it's really theapproach that is important.
It's like the willingness tojust have these conversations.

Speaker 4 (01:36:50):
Sorry, I didn't want to cut you off but I like can't
agree more.
I mean I'm going to come backto this because really, like the
reason I started dollcast withyou all is that 2023 public
religion research institutesurvey that literally says that
decline for lgbt rights transrights in that included in that
especially among republican,young republicans aged 18 to 29

(01:37:13):
is dropping like for the firsttime.
It's dropping and it's like Ithink it's just it's because of
those insensational storiesproliferating on the internet.
I mean Isla Bryson, chloe Cole,detransitioner I mean they're
like all these stories that arejust painting trans people in a
negative light and I want us tochange that narrative.

(01:37:33):
Like I think with Dollcast we'reactually actually we're
actually like amplifyingsomething that's real and
relatable to so many people andbreaks those stereotypes that
are otherwise like out on theinternet floating around and
we're actually havingconversations that are going to
help people have realunderstanding.
It's like we need a show thatjust gives that like light to

(01:37:56):
everyday trans people livingnormal lives and not only just
living normal lives, likeflourishing in their identities.
I mean I see all of us aredoing well we have jobs, we have
like homes, like we're doingreal life.
We're integrated and like.
That's been my story and I justwant to see us continue to
elevate more stories like thatthat show the positives that can

(01:38:16):
actually come out of transition.
When, like yeah, our world isjust like full of despair right
now, we need to like sprinkle onsome hope.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
I love that so much.
Okay, something else I reallywanted to do, and maybe this is
a little bit email, but I, I,really I.
I think one of the hardest,most toxic aspects of the trans
community is the way it takesits turn devouring everyone.
Kelly, the way you've beentreated by the trans community

(01:38:44):
really upsets me.
Just being 100% real with you,I think you are a very sweet
young woman who really has atalent for saying things in a
way that's a little provocativeand really gets your attention
and really starts a conversation.
I love that about you.
I have always loved you, and tosee like the way the community

(01:39:04):
has made a mission to hurt you,it's not what I want to build
together.
So I feel like one of the ways Ican help be a leader is to just
model something different where, if you were looking for a real
community of trans women thatare like you, that are just
interested in meaningfulfriendships, where we can talk

(01:39:29):
like you can have your back andwe can have fun conversations
about fashion, like we're aboutto in the next topic or talk
about like Kelly, you and I hada discussion on the phone the
other day about your boyfriendand my husband and like what
it's like being in arelationship with a cis guy.
I think other trans women outthere desperately want these

(01:39:51):
real relationships in their lifeand I think it's hard because
the trans community has taughtall of us to be so suspicious
and scared of each other and Ithink there's just a real need
for us to have somethingpositive out here where we can
love one another and respecteach other and find real meaning

(01:40:13):
in those friendships.

Speaker 3 (01:40:15):
Yeah, I think a huge reason that we're not hitting on
I mean, at least for me, islike I kind of just wanted to
start a podcast just to likehave something to do every week
and just like create likefriendships with other trans
women and just because that'snot something I had really ever
like had before.
Um, especially with how like Imean I know you say like you
don't like the way the communitytreated me, but honestly, some
of it was deserved, because Imean, maybe not recently, but

(01:40:38):
like back like a year ago, Ifeel like I was pretty brutal
with like the things I would sayand the conservative takes I
would have like they were veryextremist.
Um, but I, yeah, I really justkind of.
I mean maybe it's not how itstarted out, but I feel like now
a huge piece of this, a hugereason why I like to do it, it's
just I like talking with youguys every week and just like
having something to look forwardto.

Speaker 4 (01:40:59):
I love that, yeah, and I feel like we can show how
to politely disagree and respecteach other and not let that
cause bridges.
And, kelly, especially for you,show like what forgiveness.
And just like starting freshand like like I don't care at
all about any of that past stuffthat you're talking about, like
I see you and I'm like you'reawesome, you're really cool and

(01:41:21):
I want to see more trans womenlike you stepping up and that's
all I care about.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
Like, and I love talking to you all on a weekly
basis I can't think of any otherproject I do, where I look
forward to our team meetings andI feel better after the team
meetings, like I love this same,oh awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:41:40):
So how do we feel like the?

Speaker 1 (01:41:42):
launch went.
The reaction was prettypositive on twitter.
I think the um, I think thereaction on tiktok was good, um,
and I think you know it's oneof those things where we are.
We are committed to this forthe long run and, uh, I, I, this
is good stuff.
We're going to build anaudience.
I can't wait to launch theDiscord and get people there,

(01:42:03):
and I've launched a lot ofdifferent social media projects
for companies and politiciansand other entities and our first
day metrics were extremely good.
So I think there's clearly anaudience here.

Speaker 3 (01:42:14):
Do we want to talk about some of the haters on
Twitter?
From the launch, we could, weshould.
I think you should.
Okay, let's do it.
I mean, there was the Brit casttoo.
I think that was probably thebiggest one, right?
What do you?

Speaker 1 (01:42:27):
got Four likes.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:42:32):
Yeah, I don't know A lot of people like I don't know.
They were really mad that Ifeel like just that they didn't
like seeing like such a diversegroup of trans women being
together, just because I feellike we're all kind of from like
different lanes and it wasbizarre to them that all of us
were even doing a podcasttogether.
But then I just think it's sotypical of the trans community
to immediately just go for looksand be like, oh, you're all

(01:42:54):
bricks and it's just so funny,like I don't know looks and it'd
be like, oh, you're all bricksand it's just so funny, like I
don't know.
It makes me sad.
It's kind of like what we werejust talking about with how the
trans community is just so meanto each other for absolutely no
reason.
Um, but that's how cis womenare too right.
Everything is so high schoolall the time right, hey,
diversity is our strength.

Speaker 4 (01:43:12):
That's what I think, and like and I see it too like
we all bring something here andlike bricks is such a cope to me
, like I don't, I don't knowwhere that comes from, but it's
like.
I mean no, I do, but it's likereally Like that's the worst, I
mean that's not that bad.
Like it just kind of bouncesoff of me Cause it's like
doesn't matter, I'll step outand I'm a woman.

(01:43:32):
Anywhere I go, it doesn'tmatter, it I go, it doesn't
matter.
It's like.
So I don't know, bricks justdidn't really phase me.

Speaker 1 (01:43:37):
I love that their attack of me is to literally
drag up a picture of me fromlike 15 years ago.
It's like do you have any ideahow much plastic surgery I've
had between now and then?
Like, come on, like, do youwant to tell me a little?
Yeah, it's like attack me withwhat I look like today.

Speaker 3 (01:43:56):
Like come on but it's like, even if you didn't,
though, it's like I just firstof all, you didn't look bad
before plastic surgery at all.
It's just I don't understandwhat is with going for the
appearance all the time.
I think it's because just we,as trans women, know how
insecure it can make us, justlike we've all dealt with that,
especially at the beginning ofour transition, and just with
the way the beauty standard isfor women in general.

(01:44:17):
It's just I don't know.
It makes me so sad that that isthe go-to every time.
But I get it though, becauseit's they know where it's going
to hit us in the heart.
And it's kind of like um Taffwas saying it's interesting how
we all react so differently tocriticism because like, whereas
me, I feel like I get reallytriggered and like really in my
emotions, whereas Brie you kindof seem like in the middle and

(01:44:38):
then, like tap, just kind ofmakes a joke out of it.

Speaker 4 (01:44:41):
I love tap's response .

Speaker 2 (01:44:43):
Yeah, that was funny.
I love that.
Yeah, I thought it was funnytoo.
I definitely have like, ifyou're going to critique my
response, I definitely tend tobe like a little, maybe too self
effacing, where I will liketotally play into it and be like
haha, yeah, like here's like myworst photo, like you can call

(01:45:06):
me a brick, whatever.
So I think for me, it's alwayslike it's always a matter of
also trying to assert myself andalso like draw those boundaries
and to be like you know, yeah,I'll joke about it, but at the
end of the day, like I want tobe able to like defend people
that I care about.
And yeah, and I think havingthat standard is really
important and it's like butwe're talking about why we're

(01:45:28):
starting dollcast.
Like I felt like when I wasbeing, you know, kind of
conservative online, I was likeplaying into a certain vision of
me, of conservative online.
I was like playing into acertain vision of me, and I say
this over and over.
But that happens so often whentrans people want to critique,
critique the sort of transactivist narrative, they end up
just end up just playing into adifferent narrative, and so,

(01:45:49):
yeah, I think it's important tolike stand up for yourself at
the end of the day, and and soI'm also working on that.

Speaker 4 (01:45:57):
Yes, tap, yep, all right.
So I think is that a good segue, that's good.
Stay tuned.

Speaker 1 (01:46:05):
Come join our community If you're tired of all
the toxic trans politics, ifyou just want to hang out, if
you just want to talk fashionlike our next segment is going
to be about like come join ourDiscord, come hang out with us.

Speaker 4 (01:46:18):
We would love to have you and I will say to close out
that, like last topic, I'lljust say like I think the most
rewarding part for me was justseeing all the comments from
viewers that like felt seen andunderstood by what we were doing
, like on board with our missionof like showing normal trans
women.
It's like everyone agrees thisis sorely needed, and seeing

(01:46:39):
those comments just like oh,warm my heart so much, way more
than any of the haters or any ofthe negative comments so there
was way more positivity, whichhonestly we probably should have
focused on more when we weretalking.

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
it's more fun to talk about the negativity, but, yeah
, no, it was overwhelminglypositive.
But I think that's becausethere's so many people who
really do like feel the same wayand there's just no one out
there willing to say whatthey're thinking, and so having
someone to do that, it's reallyvaluable.

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
It takes a lot of bravery to break the toxic
spiral and try to buildsomething new.
And that's it's so interestingbecause, like at the end of my
career, I don't want to be knownfor gamergate.
What I want to be known for issomeone that helped set the
trans community on a healthierdirection.
And I'm not telling you thateverything I do is perfect or
well thought out, like I shootmy mouth off all the time and

(01:47:32):
make mistakes, but I think Ireally think this is an
important mission and I don'tsee anyone out there trying to
do it, and I'm really honoredgoing in with the three of you
and I just I don't know I was.
I was so honored when I askedall of you to do this and you
said yes.

Speaker 4 (01:47:50):
So All right, we're getting sappy, let's keep going.
Sorry, I'm crying of happiness.
Ok, all right.
So now we're going to segueinto.
Now for something a little morelighthearted but equally
important fashion.
We all know the thrill and thestruggle of finding clothes that
make us feel confident andbeautiful.

(01:48:12):
We'll chat about our favoritebrands, shopping strategies and
the fashion styles that make usfeel our best.
From online deals to in-persontreasure hunts, let's dish on
all things wardrobe.
Who wants to go first?

Speaker 1 (01:48:27):
This is your topic, Taff.

Speaker 2 (01:48:30):
I want to have more, just like I don't know personal,
casual conversations aboutfashion or just any topic that
isn't like super serious, um.
So, yeah, I want to like hearabout people's perspectives.
For me, I think fashion is likesuch an indicator of what
people care about.

(01:48:50):
Like, for me, I, um I've goneon like a crusade recently where
, like I feel so frustrated withclothes getting like stained or
like damaged in the wash and soI feel like I've just like
bought so many expensive piecesand then like mess them up and I

(01:49:10):
feel like it's like soimportant that things are like
utilitarian for me andfunctional, um, and at the same
time, like I want them to bebeautiful, and that's like a
huge tension.
But like, yeah, I don't know, Ijust I would love to hear
people's perspectives and ideas,things that they've bought

(01:49:31):
recently, fashion that they'veseen in the world, and they're
like oh, this is cool, yeah,anything that they've seen in
the world, and they're like oh,this is cool.

Speaker 1 (01:49:39):
Um, yeah, anything I think like.
One of the things I do is, Ithink like body conscious stuff
tends to look good on me.
Um, there's a brand calledwolford.
I really really like everything.
They're super expensive, likeit's a top and it'll be a 200
top or a jacket that would bedollars.
So it's really really well madeand will last you like years

(01:49:59):
and years and years and years.
So that tends to be my thing.
But I also really really lovelike going and taking a saturday
and like going and finding likea really nice like.
Um, I got a skirt over at kate'sfaith the other day.
That's like this wool.
It's kind of a mini skirt youcan wear with tights.
It's this wool checker patternon it, but it's just gorgeous.

(01:50:20):
It looks 10 out 10 styles Idon't know.
Um, I think the other thing issometimes like, if you're not
really fashionable, um, myfriend christina taught me this
you can literally just go tonordstrom and fork over your
credit card and be like I don'tunderstand this stuff.
Can you help me get started?
And they will sit there andspend an entire saturday with
you like, helping you likefigure out what is a good, like

(01:50:43):
you know what looks good on you,so that's kind of my approach I
had no idea they did that.

Speaker 3 (01:50:49):
Oh yeah, that's great .

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):
I know I want to go use that can I just say it's
also super, super good.
Um, like it's, it's, it's.
It shows you like it's not justlike the picture on a model.
They will actually have someonelike hold it up so you can kind
of figure out the cut of it ifit's gonna look good on you, if
that makes sense, do you guys?

Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
ever get like stressed about where you show up
, because I definitely get this.
We're like like, is this a goodstore?
It's like very hard for me toknow and I feel like fashion is
like so ruled by all of theselike little, these little like
biases and judgments that I'mlike sort of not privy to, and

(01:51:31):
okay.
So here's an example Um,there's this like trend on
TikTok that got really big awhile back and I think it was
called like quiet luxury.
But basically there's like areaction and you know, reaction
to the reaction that's likeconstantly happening in the
fashion world.

(01:51:51):
And I think that what we saw waslike a lot of people,
especially during like COVIDtimes, they got like the
stimulus check and they're likeall right, I got a little money,
I'd like to spend it onsomething.
And people are like gettingthese items that were like
luxury brands and they were likesort of ostentatious and they
had big like logos and stuff.

(01:52:13):
And a lot of people had thatexperience, that experience and
then also had the very you knowsimultaneous experience which is
like, oh wait, this is like nolonger or this is not a status
symbol in the way that I thoughtit was, and the clothing pieces
to really end up being statussymbols are the ones that signal

(01:52:36):
to like important and well, youknow, informed people that you
like know what you're doing andyou have lots of money and
aren't signaling just like toanyone.
And so there was this term thatlike became popular, of like,
quiet, luxury, these items whichare really expensive but you
wouldn't necessarily knowthey're expensive, and so that

(01:52:59):
is like the perfect indicator.
I mean like a coach bag or likesome, some, you know, imagine
like a laura kiana, likeunbranded, just like cable knit
sweater that, like someone whoknows fashion, can take like one
look at, like the stitching orthe seam, and they can like
recognize it and be like, oh,that's that.
Or they can see, like you know,a tiny like faint symbol like

(01:53:22):
just below the collar, and belike that's that.
It's not the kind of thing thatmost people would recognize.
The people who are in the knowknow that you just forked over
like a ton of money for that andit's going to last you forever
and that was like a great, youknow fashion move.
And so I think that I and a lotof other people, when they get
into fashion, they sort ofrealize that like quality is

(01:53:46):
elusive and you can pay lots ofmoney to get something that's
sort of crappy but just showsyou've paid a lot of money.
Or you can pay like a lot ofmoney for something that's
really quality and that's muchharder to do.
And you know, maybe we'llsignal to the right people that
you know what you're doing, butI don't know what I'm doing like

(01:54:09):
signaling to people, because Ialways think this is a trap.

Speaker 1 (01:54:13):
I mean, I don't know, I think you know there's a
certain kind of person out therethat's very conscious about
getting like photos taken withcelebrities to like make the
appearance of being important.
It just comes off like you're ajoke to me, like if you're
important, people are going toknow you're important.
If you're well dressed, peopleare going to know you're well

(01:54:34):
dressed.
If you're like like, I almostthink it's kind of a trap and
rather than like focusing on theappearance of being put
together, just be put togetherlike I don't know the thing
about status symbols is they'rehard to fake.

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
So, like, if you're in a community that it really is
like very poor and you get likea gucci belt, that's a hard
status symbol to fake in acertain community because it
means you've somehow gotten yourhands on money and people are
going to be surprised.
But if you move up a little bitin like the socioeconomic
ladder, suddenly, like a Guccibelt is not a status symbol, is

(01:55:10):
a symbol that you're like badwith money and you pretty like
quickly realize that.
If you have that experience,what I think happens with like
some status symbols isespecially in fashion.
They're valuable because youcan't just like go and replicate
them.
Like if you have a piece thatlike you can only get like a

(01:55:33):
trunk show in milan, thatindicates that like you actually
know people and like you'vebeen to something and that's,
and so that's one thing.
The other thing is that you canindicate you just have like
good artistic right.
So like this, I think for me, Ihave lots of clothing pieces.

(01:55:56):
This, like you know, this maybecosts like 15 or something.
Like I got it on amazon.
I have lots of clothing pieces.
This maybe costs like $15 orsomething.
I got it on Amazon.
I have lots of clothes offAmazon, but I get them because I
have a very specific aestheticthat I'm trying to create and I
think that when people see thatI've put all of these pieces
together and that I have areally coherent fashion identity

(01:56:19):
, that's a signal.
That is, it's not about the costof the pieces, it's about like
taste, and so it's not at allabout like price, necessarily.
It's so many other things and Ido think that, like you are, at
the end of the day, whatfashion is about is expressing
yourself.
Yes and yeah, I think it'sabout expressing, like, your

(01:56:41):
best qualities, and maybe that'sthe fact that you like know
someone who got you like invitedsomewhere, and people are gonna
be like who do you know?
Like how do you know them?
And then you can brag aboutyour fancy career or whatever.
Or maybe it's just like yourability to read aesthetics and
make good choices.

Speaker 4 (01:56:57):
Um, yeah, that's sort of my perspective you're so
thought out on, like the status.
I'm like I was like whoa, sheknows she's thinking about this
a lot of deep thought.
I just like think about it waytoo much so yeah, like I'm such
a comfort girl, like I like Irespect that, yeah, like I mean

(01:57:20):
I'm a little bit lazy but I'mjust like I like comfort, I do
like I do care about aesthetictoo, but it's like very much
contingent on like who am Iseeing that day?
Where am I going, like, what amI doing in my day that I want
to dress for or like orient myclothing style so that I'm most
comfortable?
Honestly, that's kind of a flex.

Speaker 2 (01:57:39):
I think, oh, really yeah, because if you're gorgeous
you don't need to super dressup.
So I think that's cool.

Speaker 4 (01:57:48):
Well, I didn't even mean it that way, but that's
great, that's true, I'm thinkingthat's a real flex.

Speaker 1 (01:57:55):
Your hair is straight , you don't have to curl it.
You still have 10 out of 10.
You just your hair is straight.

Speaker 4 (01:58:01):
You don't have to curl it.
You still have 10 out of 10.
You just have a top on.
Today I have like two layers offoundation, or you'd see my
blushing right now.

Speaker 3 (01:58:06):
Your natural blush looks so beautiful.
I hate that you get down onyourself for that.

Speaker 4 (01:58:11):
Yeah, seriously, well I mean, yeah, I guess I don't
know, I feel like I get reallyself-conscious because, like
whenever I'm laughing or likesomebody says something and I'm
like, oh, that's so sweet.
But then it just goes to myhead and then I blush like crazy
.
Oh, I just can't help but getself-conscious just because it's
like puffy red cheeks.
You shouldn't, I don't know.

(01:58:32):
But yeah, I mean I'm justreally a convenience.
But comfort shopper.
I do have my stores.
I like my favorite wouldprobably be Francesca's.
I love the Lacey.
Oh, you don't know.
Oh yeah, they're just like.
I mean they're sort of liketheir ideal demographic is women

(01:58:53):
, probably in their like.
I mean really it could be teensall the way up to like upper
30s, 40s-ish.
I wouldn't go like much pastthat.
But it's very like cutesy, likelacy and just very feminine
aesthetics and I've like alwayslike when I find a piece that
works for me, there it's, I haveto buy it.
Like there's just like no wayyou're going to buy it.

Speaker 2 (01:59:17):
You should look into Lace Maid it lace made.
It's like sort of like that,where it's like very cute,
feminine, like pretty um, butlike okay, I have like so much
more to talk about, especiallywith like aging out of certain
fashions, because you're talkingabout this like age ranges, and
I noticed like a few years agothat I started looking like a
lot older, um, like I aged upwith my like teenage face right,
and so I was like, oh my god,in 15 years I'm gonna look like,

(01:59:41):
you know, a mom or whatever,and I can't be like dressing in
like thigh high socks and likeskirts for the rest of my life.
I have to actually like puttogether a cohesive aesthetic
that's going to last um, so,yeah, that definitely like is in
the back of my mind.

Speaker 4 (01:59:59):
Right, yeah, no, that's like extremely true.
And like I mean, honestly, mostof my clothes, like I guess
this is kind of like a bad habitfrom COVID.
I don't know, maybe it's bad,maybe it's not, but like I used
to get really shy about likegoing out and not really knowing
like how to pick what workedfor my body type.
Yes, yeah.

(02:00:19):
And so like I mean this iswhere having my partner really
came in in candy and clutchbecause I could get her opinion
and be like, what do you thinkabout this?
What do you think about thisdress Like, but I found like
patterns of what worked for mybody type which like originally,
well, this was before I hadboobs, so I had to be more.
Like Tuesday, yeah, yeah, wasbefore I had boobs, so I had to

(02:00:42):
be more like twosies strategic,yeah, yeah.
And it was like halter neck,halter neck dresses because I'm
taller and it like just accentedthe collarbone and the cheeks
and it just really makes itstand out and it pops and it's
like and it draws attention awayfrom those like less flattering
areas in the mid region, and solike I found that out.
But then, like after I got myboob job and I was like, okay, I
got some assets, now I gotgirls, I can work with this and

(02:01:05):
I was like low-cut, a-line, itrocks, like it looks, yeah, it
slays like I just so that's mygo-to now and like I think y'all
saw like that was like my pfp,it was so gorgeous.
Yeah, like yes, I just, yeah,I'm like glowing in it.
I just I love the low-cut stuffnow and then that's like one of
my favorite things about likegoing through this process of

(02:01:26):
transition is like each stageit's like there's something I
can look forward to and be happywith.
And then, like now that I'vegone through that last stage of
the breast augmentation, I'mlike, yeah, I'm so happy, like I
can wear anything and I likefeel so beautiful and I love it.
But my go-to is sweats and likeand um, oh god, uh, what's?

(02:01:49):
Uh, hoodies, like literallysweats and hoodies.
I dress like Billie Eilish allthe time.

Speaker 1 (02:01:53):
Oh, my god, yeah, so something I'm super jealous
about with this guy in Utah isboth of y'all can pull off like
that lace, like very femininelook, and for me, like when I
look at I've tried that stuff itjust doesn't look good.
I have to look like verystructured, like color blocks
look really good on me, likeclassic, like fashion,

(02:02:14):
especially if it's fitted likefashion, especially if it's
fitted.
That looks good on me.
But just for whatever reason Idon't know if it's my
personality or that managerenergy that you were talking
about like it's just, I don'tknow.
It doesn't work on me and itnever has.

Speaker 2 (02:02:33):
I think like your personality reflects what
fashion works for you.
I think there's like sharppersonalities, like sharp
fashions, and then there's likesoft personalities and soft
fashions and I've likealternated between both, but I
definitely think there's like athere's so much power and like a
sharp, like slick black dressand like straight hair, and I
feel like you like lean intothat.

(02:02:54):
Rihanna and you like do reallywell, um, but it's like okay, I
don't know if you've alsoexperienced this, but like
sometimes I would prefer todress like even more like
feminine and like sort of likelacy and like girlish, but I'm
like I don't know like totallywhat's my body.
So I've had to like negotiatewith myself where I wear like

(02:03:16):
feminine.
You sort of like I really leaninto like the pretty, I think
aesthetic, like I've got these.
Like you know, I've got theselike butterfly earrings.

Speaker 4 (02:03:25):
I love your earrings.

Speaker 2 (02:03:27):
They're so pretty and I this is like in my mind I
sort of think that I've got thisstyle that I sometimes lean
into, which is like pretty andslightly quirky, like elementary
school teacher, where I'll wearlike fruit earrings or like
sort of like patterned dresses,cause I just think that they're

(02:03:49):
like pretty undeniably feminine,but also not like you know,
they're not like Lolita orsomething.
You're striking that balanceExactly Like they work for, like
if you're like a tall woman wholike sort of looks a little bit
older than he actually is,perfect kelly.

Speaker 4 (02:04:09):
What do you think?
How do you know?

Speaker 3 (02:04:12):
it's just like I don't know.
For me I don't really feel likeI think about it as much as you
guys do like I just first ofall, I'm like cheap as shit,
like I you're like I get my shiton amazon.
I'm like girl, I look at theprices on amazon and I'm like,
fuck, I am not paying like 25for a pair of leggings.

Speaker 2 (02:04:28):
It's the same thing, though on like tv, amazon just
gets it to you faster, but it'sliterally the same thing I, I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:04:37):
I just I'm a notorious shin shopper.
I think I got in the habit ofit, um, when I started my OF,
just because it was really cheapclothing.
So I was like, the cheaper Ican get, the more profit I'll
make.
Um, and then my entire closetjust turned into shin stuff.
I literally have bags ofclothes in the attic on the side
of me that are like old stufffrom shin that I just will never
touch again.

(02:04:57):
Um, but I really can't.
I can't throw it out, thoughfor some reason it like.
For some reason, throwing itaway just like gives me anxiety.
But like, I don't know, I wearlike pajama pants all the time.
If it's from shin, it's fromwalmart or target, um, and I'll
just like wear like pj bottoms.
Then I'll put on like a like Idon't know.
I like like black little likecrop tops that cover my belly a
little bit, but yeah, it's notlike super crop, but like, just

(02:05:19):
like something that's like a,you know, like a tank top, and
then just like some tight pantsor jeans.
Or I like like leggings, blackleggings or or, yeah, tight pj
bottoms, it, yeah, I don't know.
And I like like sweatshirts,like I like oversized
sweatshirts or like things likethis that my shoulder and like
kind of like make it so that myreally long arms like it.

(02:05:41):
Just I like it when my handsare covered like Ariana Grande
style.
Um, it's cute.
Yeah, I went through like areally weird phase in like um,
like freshman year of college,like during like the thank you
next sweetener era, where ArianaGrande was doing like thigh
high boots and then likeoversized hoodies with like
really short shorts on, so itlooked like you were pants.
That was like the one time likeI was like, oh, I am gonna

(02:06:01):
mimic this style because I wantto feel like ariana grande.
Um, so I bought like threedifferent pairs of thigh high
boots and like different colorsand like a ton of different
oversized hoodies, um, and Imimicked that for like a year
because, like I was so obsessedwith her in that era.
Um, but other than that, it'sliterally just like anything
oversized like on top of me andthen like tight bottoms or, if
in the summer, like short shorts.

(02:06:22):
But it's always cheap as shit.

Speaker 2 (02:06:24):
Always cheap as shit for me Well, okay, I was going
to ask about tucking, but ofcourse that's like not a problem
for you, because I thought itwas a nightmare.
Oh, yeah.
Oh so bad.
And I had this one.
Be like why don't you just wearleggings and I'm leggings?
Oh so bad.
Yeah, and I had this one.
Be like why don't you just wearleggings and I'm like, girl,
like it's painful.

Speaker 1 (02:06:43):
Do we finally have this conversation?
I've never had thisconversation.
This is the worst part oftransition before you get
vaginoplasty.
It's awful.

Speaker 3 (02:06:52):
Everyone always acts like it's not painful for them,
and I was like why am I the onlyone it's painful for?

Speaker 2 (02:06:57):
like it just slips out a little and you're like
crushing it, you're like dyingyeah.

Speaker 3 (02:07:03):
So there's like no good way to do it.
Then it wasn't just me, likeit's just always.

Speaker 2 (02:07:07):
No, well, okay, I think if you like literally tape
it, you'll be okay, but it'slike I'm not gonna tape it like
every time, so you didn't sweatout of it.
I would sweat off the tableeven with a time.

Speaker 1 (02:07:22):
Yeah, even in the winter, I would sweat out of it.
Oh god, that's brutal.
What about running or going tothe gym?
That was the worst ever likebecause you're trying to like,
you try tucking and then running40 miles.

Speaker 2 (02:07:33):
That's a challenge like I've never had these
problems.
Oh, my god, I'm so lucky Idon't have.
Like I've never had theseproblems.
I don't know, I don't have.
Like I think, just what's your?

Speaker 4 (02:07:42):
strategy I don't have .
I don't have anything.
I just like.
I mean maybe I'm just likelucky, but like I mean I got my
thongs, I got everything I needand I just snatch it up and I'm
good, like I don't have anyproblems.
But I will say, when it comesto you, snatch it up.

Speaker 2 (02:08:01):
There's so many invasive questions I want to ask
you.

Speaker 3 (02:08:04):
I know I need details .
How big is it?

Speaker 4 (02:08:07):
What are we working on?
Why am I being put on the spotfor this?
I was not anticipating this.
No, I didn't know it was such aproblem.
I didn't know people had somuch pain with this.
I thought it was just like you.
Just you compress and it's likeI mean I don't have a problem.

Speaker 1 (02:08:25):
Yeah, I like bikinis.

Speaker 3 (02:08:27):
It's like not an issue for you and like a
swimsuit.

Speaker 4 (02:08:30):
So no, so that was what I was saying is the one
thing that is tough is like Imean I've thought about doing
the medical tape thing.
I, I mean, I've thought aboutdoing the medical tape thing,
I've tried it, it is fine, untilyou have to pee and then you
have to do everything again.
So it's like not conducive forme.
So I, so I actually bought theseshorts that like I mean I'm

(02:08:51):
good with these swim shorts andlike they're black and they just
like hide the detail and youcan't tell.
Like I mean I've worn these allthe time and it's like it
absolves me of the stress oftucking and at the same time, I,
you know, nothing's reallynoticeable unless you have some
like creepy pervert who's justlike staring laser focused at
you.
But I mean cis women wearshorts all the time swimming.

(02:09:13):
Like it's not like that crazy.
And these shorts like theyblock all the you know they.
They have like a layer on topof them that just like it's not
a skirt but it's like fabric.
That just like again, it hidesthe detail and maybe I'm just
lucky and I don't have that muchto have to hide, but like I
feel like you have a lot ofmaterial there to work with.

Speaker 1 (02:09:37):
Or are we talking like what's the situation Just
between us and the wholeinternet Just slinging?
I know I'm like yeah, just foreveryone to know about.

Speaker 4 (02:09:47):
Like gosh, no, you don't have to say it to you Like
what do y'all mean by like whatlike?
What's the question here?

Speaker 1 (02:09:57):
I walked in and dr bowers like just whipped it out
and like no one had touched itin like many, many years, and
she goes yep, you got enoughmaterial there.

Speaker 2 (02:10:08):
And then she just walked off okay, and how much
material do you need?
Did you need, by the way, Iknow what does this mean.

Speaker 1 (02:10:18):
I guess I had enough for okay, okay, um, my strategy
was like, yeah, it was less thanaverage, but enough for
everyone.

Speaker 3 (02:10:28):
Yes, I am but like I had a little too, and even with
a little, I still felt like itcould be painful as shit if they
got caught there.
So I'm just like, how are younot getting it?
Like, do you guys know whatthat sock method that was in the
beginning?
Like kind of like early stageslike 2014, where this was my
early beginning, I guess, fortransition, but people would
make tutorials about cutting thetop part of a sock dude.

(02:10:51):
I did that all throughout highschool and the way it would get
caught in between I would belike dying in class.
I'm like I gotta go to thebathroom where I'm literally
going to pass the fuck out.

Speaker 1 (02:10:59):
Oh no.
Have you ever had a tuck failand had a girlfriend notice it?
That is the most embarrassingsituation.
Oh my God.
I literally to this day havenightmares about my friend Abby
that noticed this with me onetime when we were like at the
gym together and I just wantedto die.

(02:11:20):
I just literally wanted to die,and this is why it's so hard
for me to understand why sometrans girls don't want
vaginoplasty, because it's like,at the very least, you don't
have to deal with this problem.

Speaker 2 (02:11:31):
That seems like a boss, also with skirts.
I didn't have to deal with thisproblem, so I found my own
solution.

Speaker 4 (02:11:42):
Maybe I'm just lucky that I don't have like that much
to worry about.
I've never had these problems,like I've never been that
stressed about anything fallingout like I don't know.
It's just like I mean, but I Idon't know, like I, I just have
my ways and it's like mysterious.

Speaker 2 (02:11:59):
Well, I will say, will say I also I'm not like,
I'm not packing like a MagnumDom and I think in some ways
it's like worse, yeah, okay.

Speaker 4 (02:12:08):
You were starting about your swimsuit.
What do you do?

Speaker 2 (02:12:12):
Thank you for reminding me.
You're so helpful.
Yeah, so, because I'm notpacking a Magnum Dom.
I'm in this weird in the middlebetween zone where, like, if it
was bigger, I could probablyjust like pull it back and like
it'd be big enough to like holdin like the balls and everything
and it'd be great.
Um, unfortunately, the realityis that it's like not, and so

(02:12:34):
the balls would slip out easilyand so I really need like
incredibly tight something downthere or tape, and my solution
with swimsuits is just to wearlike well, okay, if I want to
wear a bikini which I've donebefore black bikini, like you're
saying, like black shorts andguys things.
Black number two is I have thissort of like mesh skirt thing

(02:12:58):
that sort of like hangs acrossmy hips and just like goes in
front and that plus, like theblack bikini, it's like it just
hides it so much that like Idon't even have to talk in that
scenario.
So I've done that a few times.
Um, I wouldn't do it in likeyou know the RNC swimming pool,
right, but um, it works for,like the local.

(02:13:19):
You know the RNC swimming pool,right, but it works for, like
the local, you know, whatever, Ithink the episode title is just
going to be packing a box ofdolls.

Speaker 1 (02:13:28):
I'm just going to edit the videos, it's just Taff
saying that like 10 times.

Speaker 2 (02:13:32):
Yeah, just over and over.

Speaker 3 (02:13:35):
I remember going to the beach would give me like so
much anxiety.
I went with my boyfriend'sfriends one time and this was
like one of my first timesmeeting them, and it was like a
group of them and we I wanted towear a bikini at the beach.
I wanted to seem normal, Likecause.
Like you know, I never went tothe beach, so I was like, oh,

(02:13:56):
this is like my one opportunityto like, but it would like
almost like push itself to thefront, to the point where you
have like a bump like there, andit was.
It did that at the beach and itwas just so obvious and I was
in front of like all thesepeople and I felt like I had to
like constantly run to thebathroom and like hide myself
and it was.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:14:14):
I don't know it was awful, it's brutal, it's brutal,
yeah.
So yeah, we all have these likestrategies and, like Skylar you
mentioned, like earlier, likesomething that would like hide
the midsection.
That's another thing for me.
Like I always I opt for outfitsthat kind of like flare out at
the waist yeah, hugely helpful,but I feel like it's such like

(02:14:37):
okay.
So, like Kelly, you're talkingabout like leggings or like you
know, small bottom, like big top.
I've always been like toonervous to do that, in part
because I think it makes me looklike my upper body is like
oversized, and so I've alwayspreferred like the flared bottom

(02:15:00):
or like a big bottom, small topcombo.
Um, but yeah, it's like it issuch a cute style and I would
like totally wear the big bottom, small top if I was like ariana
grande size and also you know.

Speaker 1 (02:15:11):
So I want to ask y'all about this how do y'all
feel about heels?
Because I love heels.
I think they're so pretty,they're so gorgeous, but it's,
at the same time, like my heightis the last thing I ever want
to emphasize.
I was just about to say thatyeah, it's such a challenge to
find shoes that are pretty andstrappy, that don't make me look

(02:15:31):
like an mpa player.

Speaker 3 (02:15:34):
You know what I mean do you ever feel like there's
never like cause?
That used to be my insecuritytoo.
It was like, oh, they're goingto make me taller, but at the
same time I feel like I neverhave an opportunity to like wear
heels, unless it's like aspecific, like major event, like
anytime I'm like going out withmy boyfriend's friends, like
we're constantly like outside orlike in the dirt, or I feel
like, even if we're just goingto the theater, I have to walk

(02:15:57):
on grass and it's muddy and Idon't want to fuck on my heels.
I have so many heels that Ifeel like I just never wear, not
because I don't want to be tall, but just because I don't feel
like they're ever functional forwhere I'm going half the time.

Speaker 1 (02:16:07):
With my job.
I do all the rooms constantly,so it's always appropriate.
Yeah, I just don't wear thembecause I don't want to seem too
tall.
I'm very self-conscious aboutthat.

Speaker 2 (02:16:21):
Yeah, I respect that.
I am totally the kind of personwho will dress up or nothing.
I'll go to the grocery store ina really nice dress.
I just like doing that.
It makes me feel nice.
And so I'm also the kind ofperson who would totally wear
heels just out, and I think fora long time I avoided heels for

(02:16:42):
the exact reason that people aresort of talking about.
Like it just made me look taller, and I think I especially felt
that way in college, like Iliked being able to walk around
the hallways of my college andlike see men who are like taller
than me and just like feelshorter than a man, which is

(02:17:03):
like we've like talked aboutthis before.
There's a very specific feelingof just being like mere and
attractive guy who's like biggerthan you, um, and I liked that
experience of being able to sortof like ogle guys and feel like
small next to them.
But ever since I, you know, gotinto like a committed
relationship, I no longer likereally do that, um, and I don't

(02:17:28):
really feel like I need to looklike, you know, desirable to a
man.
And so heels are like this,like very, they're like moggers,
they're like they just make youlook like powerful and like
pretty, and if you're likegorgeous and you're like super
tall, it's like model status andI feel like that's really cool

(02:17:49):
and not something that I feellike I need to shy away from
anymore I I'm really like youtaff, in the sense I enjoy
dressing up, I love doing itlike and part of it is like just
with my job, like if I'm likemy.

Speaker 1 (02:18:02):
My job is zoom calls with important people all day
long, where it's just notappropriate for me to talk to a
member of congress in sweatpantsright it's like it's
appropriate.
But I find this is one of thereal advantages, I think, to
being trans that like this hasbeen consistent.
Like 20s, 30s, 40s, I take somuch enjoyment out of femininity

(02:18:28):
and working with what I have.
Like you know, lauren southerncame over to my house and like
taught me how to do like fakeeyelashes, and I like always do
this every single day, wake upwhen doing makeup.
I take like an extra threeminutes to do that because it
just looks gorgeous and I don'tknow what I have found is, I

(02:18:48):
think, for a lot of cis womenwhen they, you know, get through
30s and 40s, I almost thinklike femininity is a gum that
has lost its flavor for them.
And I still I will, I'm surewhen I'm in my 50s, I will still
really enjoy just being able todo this stuff that was
forbidden to me for so long andI really appreciate the fact

(02:19:11):
that I can look my best.
I mean, I take time to work outand watch my diet.
In a way, a lot of cis womendon't, and I don't know.
I think there's some realbeauty in still finding fun in
this stuff like no matter what.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 (02:19:25):
I I.
That really echoes with mebecause it's like I will.
I say I wear like sweats andhoodies all the time, but that's
just when I'm working from home.
If I'm going on a call or I'mgoing in the office, I am doing
exactly what you're doing, brie.
I'm taking advantage that I'mgoing to be seen and I'm picking
out that outfit.
I'm picking that dress I reallywant to wear and I'm like and
it's cute.

(02:19:45):
It might be like super cute.
It might be more formal.
If I'm giving a presentation,it's going to be more formal.
It just depends on what the dayaffords, but it's.
There's something fun now aboutdoing that, like when I I was,
when I was a guy back back, whenit was like I didn't, I didn't
want to dress up like that.
I was like oh, I have to wear asuit, okay, whatever, like

(02:20:06):
there was no joy in it, exactlylike we all share that.
And it's like now it's so fun.
I'm like oh, I'm gonna pickthis dress.
Oh, I get to pull this one out.
It's cold outside now oh, uggs,but I love Uggs.
That's the one thing.
I don't really go with theheels because, well, I am just
self conscious about my heightand it's something I should be
better about.

(02:20:26):
But, like again, comfort, Ibalance everything and I'll just
.
I most often do the leggingswith the Uggs and I just love
that.
I love that feeling.
It's a cute combo.
It's like blankets for yourfeet.
How can you not love it?

Speaker 2 (02:20:43):
Okay, so oh no, Go ahead, Kelly.
Yeah, I'll see you in a piecelater.

Speaker 3 (02:20:45):
I was just going to say.
I went through a phase in highschool, when I was in the
beginning of my transition,where I feel like I did try
really hard to be overlyfeminine.
I would wear things that wereheels or wedges, I would do like
fake eyelashes every day.
This was when, also in 2015,2016, when, like big makeup was
in with like Kylie Jenner,jeffree star, james Charles, you
know.

(02:21:07):
But I think, like, as I gotolder, like I've just been
wearing less and less makeup andlike, I guess, dressing less
feminine by wearing just likeleggings or sweats with like a
small little top, because like I, and same with like my makeup.
You know, like I I don't evendo mascara anymore.
I do like very minimal makeupevery day, not because, like I
don't enjoy doing eyelashes fromtime to time or like, um, like

(02:21:28):
lipstick or like mascara, any ofit, but I just, for some reason
, I kind of feel like that'swhat people expect of like trans
women, to like try to go out oftheir way, to be overly
feminine, and I always just kindof want to blend in and seem
normal, and so I guess, like ina weird way, I try to be like as
subtle as I can be to almostlike blend in and almost not

(02:21:51):
seem trans totally, totally yeah, and I mean it's exactly what I
was going to like talk about,which is like the motivations
for dressing a certain way, likewhat are you trying to project?

Speaker 2 (02:22:03):
Or like how do you want people to see you?
Like I asked one of my friendswho knew me in high school what
he thought of my fashion senseat that time and he said, like
well, I just remember there werea lot of short skirts.
Like well, I just remember therewere a lot of short skirts and
I was like that's interesting,that that's what you remember,
because my memory of high schoolwas I want to look like really

(02:22:27):
cute, so like, please, someonecan hit on me, and I was like
doing my makeup every day and Iwas like so like on that grind
and it's because I wanted toseem like sexually appealing for
people, which you know whenyou're a teenager, it's like
inherently cringe and likeyou're all teenagers are bad at

(02:22:50):
this and don't know what they'redoing, and I was no exception.
But that was like the goal and Ifeel like now that I'm older
and I'm not like trying to dothat, I like just want to look
pretty and like feel comfortable.
Yes, and the way I feel mostcomfortable is when I feel like

(02:23:10):
I'm presenting myself in a waythat's like feminine and pretty,
and I don't care if people likefind me sexually attractive,
which is why, like I don't mindwearing heels, because if a guy
sees me, I think he'll think, oh, she's pretty, but like maybe I
wouldn't sleep with her becauseshe's like so tall.
Fine, like that's totally coolwith me.
And I definitely feel like mypriorities have changed as I've

(02:23:34):
gotten older, still into thefeminine stuff, but like it's
just different.

Speaker 1 (02:23:39):
I I really enjoy looking put together.
It's not that I'm trying likeI've been married for 16 years,
I'm not trying to like attractsomeone.
It's that I, I just truly enjoylike like putting curl in my
hair, like I take pleasure fromgoing and getting a good
manicure.
I love love finding like a cutebracelet, like going to a

(02:24:01):
thrift shop and like lookingthrough vintage stuff for them.
Like I just it's aboutexpressing myself, and this is
something I think men don'tunderstand is these are cues
that women pick up on.
So because, like, throughout myday, so much of it is like
making a connection with peopleI can't tell you how many like

(02:24:22):
professional connections I'vegotten with someone by just
talking to them about theirnails and like like noticing or
something about their outfit.
Like it's just I don't knowit's, it's fundamentally who I
am and it's not for anyone else.
I just this is the way I wantto present myself to the world.
But just one more thing.

(02:24:42):
Like Taff, I thought so muchabout what you said in our last
show about that feeling that yousometimes have when you like
look in the mirror and you seeyourself and you see like the
boy version of yourself.
It's like you feel like you'rein drag, like it took me so long
to get over that and I feellike that is why I like was very

(02:25:04):
resistant to learning a lot ofstuff like advanced skills.
I kind of do contouring andstuff like that and I think like
it's it's almost like you'vegot to lean into these things
that cause you to like it's alittle painful does that make
sense?

Speaker 2 (02:25:21):
I mean absolutely this.
There's like a great quote fromthe spake zarathustra by nicha,
where, like, he's describingthis like dog um, and it's like
wrestling with the snake in hismouth and the dog, in order to
like escape, he needs to bitethrough the snake and just like
get through it.

(02:25:41):
And he's this famously likesickly philosopher who spent his
nights like vomiting up blackbile and like, in order to write
what he did and be the kind ofperson that he was, he just had
to like get through it and hehad to embrace that pain.
And so many things in life areuncomfortable.
You have to bite through themand makeup, I think, is like

(02:26:06):
that sometimes I think we'vediscussed fashion, everything in
our show y'all.

Speaker 4 (02:26:14):
Yeah, I think we should um probably wrap up here.
Are you gonna hate us if wewrap?

Speaker 3 (02:26:19):
up?
Not at all.
Can we push?

Speaker 4 (02:26:21):
it to next week?
Yeah, for sure okay yeah,because this has gone on quite a
while.
It's been awesome it's such agood combo, alright, so okay,
this has been a blast, y'all,unpacking all these different
topics, going through all thesedifferent topics, going through
all these different like piecesof information and just content

(02:26:44):
that we can share with eachother.
So, all right, thank you all somuch for hanging out with us at
doll cast.
It's been a blast unpackingthese topics with you.
Please make sure to subscribeto our YouTube channel, doll
cast R eight N that's doll castdash R eightN, for more content,
and follow us on TikTok atDollcast for your daily dose of

(02:27:05):
insight and laughter.
You can also check us out on Xat Dollcast Show.
That's our handle and just soyou know, we can't do the show
without your support.
Until next time, stay fabulousand keep spreading the love.
Okay, today's show is next time.
Stay fabulous and keepspreading the love.
Okay, today's show is BrieTerminated.
Today's show is KellyTerminated and Taff Terminated.

(02:27:29):
That's right.
Today's show is terminated.
Thank you for tuning in.
Bye, bye.

Speaker 1 (02:27:37):
Holy crap, wow, it's just a black hole of time.
It's like going out to lunchwith girlfriends.

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