E1x03: Richard Hanania with Four Trans Gals

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, welcome to DollCast With Kelly Cadigan.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I know you guys are going to tell me I'm crazy, but
I think all gay men wouldbenefit from a gender transition
.
Brianna Wu Do you know whoBrianna Wu is?
It was people on the line.
I just asked you about BriannaWu.
I don't remember what she hasnow.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
Skylar.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Bogart, more confused on girls or boys would be a
better fit for me, and whenyou're bisexual and you have the
potential for either, you'vegot to parse that out a little
bit.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
And Taj.

Speaker 4 (00:37):
Tuff, having your story heard, having people
empathize with you on that kindof political level, I think is
really hard to do.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
It's the Dollcast.
Mostly normal women.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Hello everyone, welcome to Dollcast where you're
, welcome to Dollcast, where webring the real talk, hot takes
and plenty of laughs.
I'm your host, skylar Bogert,your parasocial bestie and
america's bff.
Joining me today are ourfabulous co-hosts.
First up we have brianna wu,our intellectual powerhouse and

(01:14):
energy source.
Brie, I'm convinced you'vecracked the secret to unlimited
energy and you're just notsharing it yeah, that is it I
have.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
I have the, it's all mine.
You're not getting this from me, skylar, it's all mine, don't
you dare try to take it.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
No, I want to know.
I don't want to.
I want to save money on myenergy bill.
All right, Next up we haveKelly Cadigan, the firecracker,
who never shies away from a bold.
Take Kelly, if opinions were acurrency?
Who never shies away from abold?
Take Kelly, if opinions were acurrency, you'd be running the
economy by now.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
Kelly for chairman of the Fed.
That's my take.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
You could tweet something nice about Trump and
you could literally be chairmanof the Fed.
So you should consider doingthat.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
I should stop tweeting in general.
You're going to stop tweetingin general're gonna stop
tweeting in general is your plan.
I feel like my mental healthneeds it right it's always mine
is so bad this week.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Mine is trash this week, oh my god your mental
health or your twitter like yourmental health, I mean my
twitter.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Actually, twitter is a hellhole.
I don't even know why I stay onit, it's brutal.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yeah, it's so bad.
Blue skies and better.
I mean I've totally cut, I stayon it.
It's brutal.
Yeah, it's so bad.
Blue skies is better.
I mean I've totally cut down mytwitter use.
It's been, it's really nice guy.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
I keep thinking of what you were saying about that
book.
You ran where the people thatare happiest are the ones that
aren't on social media and like,just like, why the hell?
Why am I doing this?

Speaker 3 (02:41):
it's just the interest generation yeah, yeah,
it's jonathan hyatt's work.
It's the psychological stuff.
Yeah, it's like online, justlike when you focus on online,
you get this disproportionatelike you know volume of hatred
and negativity, especially whenyou're trans.
And so it's like, unless youhave good connections with like,
like a good like backdrop oflike I don't know, let's see a

(03:01):
discord server with your besties.
Like that's like the only wayyou like backdrop of like I
don't know, let's see a discordserver with your besties.
Like that's like the only wayyou can kind of like offset the
negative energy you're getting.
Otherwise, it's like, yeah,you're gonna be depressed and
anxious because you think theworld hates you, but it's really
just a vocal minority that arelike keyboard warriors you know
online doing I'm such a fan ofjonathan height, so oh he's

(03:24):
great, yeah, I, I don't want tosound arrogant, but I think in
my case it's not actually avocal minority that hate me.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
There are, like there are, a lot of people that
really love me, but like I'm notimagining- like there's no, but
see the people that are goingto want to like actually take
that time to write the commentare often the haters.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
That's the problem.
You're not hearing from theones that love you because
they're just like, oh yeahthey're just hitting the like
button or they're following you?
Yeah, whatever it's, like it'sthey're lazier, I mean just for
lack of better terms, likethere's more motivation to write
a negative comment than thereis to like right, I love this,
or something like that.

Speaker 4 (04:07):
Well, I think, also like the algorithms encourage it
.
I mean, humanity really had, inso many ways, its first brush
with artificial intelligence inthe form of these social media
algorithms, and pretty quickly,companies found out that what
made them money was engagement,and what kept people engaged was

(04:27):
sometimes the most inflammatoryand psychologically destructive
content.
Content that's not true, and so, yeah, it's outrage.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's, I do think that's true
and I think it's turning a lotof us into like the worst
version of ourselves.
I was reading something aboutthis and you know I've thought
so much about this this weekthat you know one of the things
that happens when you're apublic figure is you have to and
, kelly, you can probablyidentify with this too.

(04:57):
The only way you can processthat level of like negative
things being said about you isemotional disconnection, right
Like you have to be able to flipthat switch and not feel
anything Like when someone tellsyou they're going to kill you
or they hate you or to suck thisor you know all that, all that
stuff and I get that at like areally high volume.
But one of the downsides tothis is it also stops you from

(05:23):
feeling joy, like that samething that keeps you also stops
you from feeling joy, like thatsame thing that keeps you safe,
stops you from feeling pleasurewith other things, and you know
reading that yeah, and that'swhy I was really thinking about
what you were saying.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Uh, kelly, like, like , um, maybe I should just step
away altogether, but it's sogood for my career, like I can't
you know to me the emotionaldisconnect is irrelevant either
way, because I mean I don'temotionally disconnect at all
and I still like I don't know, Idon't enjoy, so I don't know if

(05:58):
you're making money like I'vebeen seeing those posts.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
they're like I'm making this much on X and I'm
like, oh my God, it pays to behated.

Speaker 4 (06:05):
I'm like oh.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
I should step on my game, but I'm like I don't want
to exert that much energy.
I already got my personal life,Like whatever.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's not worth the money.
I mean, you know, the money Iget from X.

Speaker 5 (06:25):
I told y'all tall jaw how much it is it's it's
un-trivial.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Again, it's a decent amount.
Oh you, yeah, you can live off.
It's not important.
I, I don't know it's.
It's not worth what it does tomy life.
If that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Fair, that's fair that's why I'm so big on like
being out in the real world buty'all know I hardly post on x.
Like I mean, it's one of my ownproblems.
Like I feel like I need to beknown more.
Because I mean, look, let's bereal.
Trans rights is like going to beat its lowest point in years in
in the near future, and it'sjust like the writing's on the
wall and it's like I'm notworried so much about the short.

(07:00):
I am worried about the shortterm, but I'm not overly
concerned.
I'm looking at the future andit's like I want to see that,
like I I want people to seehealthy examples of trans people
that are like integrated intosociety.
That's what unite, unites usall here.
And like there are people thereare trans people out there with
platforms, right like buckangel, I mean he's doing this

(07:22):
and like he's out out theretalking about this all the time,
and it's like that's where it'slike I I feel obligated, I feel
like I have like a calling todo this and I'm like I don't
know I'm failing at it no, no,no.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
What were you gonna say, kelly?

Speaker 2 (07:39):
I don't know buck angel is so because I don't
really know if he's really doinganything that great for the
community.
Because even if he makes greatpoints, I just feel like half of
his posts are just talking downto other trans people that
don't look a certain way.
So, I don't know.
He's just kind of a hypocriteto me.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
I think, oh boy, I'm ready to get canceled, let's do
it, let's say something spicy.
I think one of the things Iappreciate about Buck is, if you
know him, like he's a man, likehe just didn't.
He has that kind of bluntnessabout him and, you know, I

(08:15):
actually think a lot of our youknow FTM counterparts could take
some lessons from him about alittle bit more resilience and
maybe a little bit more machismo.
I think that would be good forthem yes, yes, I'm so with you,
brie.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Like I'm not gonna say he's perfect.
I mean, no one's perfect.
Like you said, everyone makessome mistakes but the overall
message that I see himportraying, and also his
platform he brings in peoplewith like controversial takes on
the trans community and helistens to them and I'm like
that speaks volumes.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
Like yeah, I I'm glad to see that, but I I see where
you're coming from, kelly,because no one, you know, no one
gets it all right, like I mean,I mean, so I mean yeah, yeah, I
mean okay, yeah, I guess likebuck angel, the few times that I
interacted with him he was sosweet, but I do feel like for a

(09:11):
while, I've kind of like hadthis image of him as like one of
these trans people who I guessit's like audience capture or
like I feel like sometimes Ilook at his twitter and it's
just like the same kind of thingover and over and over, which
is kind of like it's negativeabout trans activism and I
wonder if, like, he would havemore nuance if it weren't the

(09:35):
case that, like you know, hejust gets paid for like
outputting a certain kind ofmessage and it's like kind of
all I end up seeing from him.
Maybe that's also the algorithmthing where it's like kind of
all I end up seeing from him.
Maybe that's also the algorithmthing where it's like that's
all that ends up like in frontof me on my feed.
Um, but yeah, I think I meanwhen I did his show.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
I I I mean, you guys know my politics.
I have a lot to criticize abouttrans activism, but when it
comes down to it, I will fightwith gender criticals.
I mean, my mission is ourdignity and you know I go to war
on that every single day, youknow.
And what I found when I talkedto Buck is, yeah, he does have
those tendencies to go downthose paths, but like you can

(10:22):
sit there and talk to him about,like you know, access to
children transitioning, like Ihave a view that there should be
a small window open withextremely high standards.
He disagrees and he will talkabout that and I don't know.
I think that's to his credit.
It was, it was.
There was tons of stuff wedisagreed on.
Don't talk about it with you.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Oh, I'm sorry Go Kelly.
Well, I just think it's funnyCause like I mean, maybe I'm
talking out of my ass and I needto like look at more of his
tweets.
But it feels like to me that ifyou go on his podcast and you
say that he'll have like aconversation with you and be
civil, but if you were someonehe didn't know and you didn't
have a following and you wrotethat brief like as a tweet, he
would just quote, tweet it andcall you a predator and be like

(10:59):
oh for children transitioning atall.
You're a bad person.
I just feel like he acts sodifferent when you get on camera
or if you have a following well, don't we all, though?

Speaker 4 (11:08):
like I act insane on twitter as well sometimes.
So I like I have some empathyfor like just how insane that
website makes people, and likeI've had the similar experience
with, like talking to destiny,where, like I respond to him and
I'm like in my mind, I'm likeagreeing with him and like
adding to his point, and thenhe's like this is fucking stupid
, and I'm like, ah, like what doyou mean?

(11:30):
And it's just like I thinkeveryone's on edge on that
website to some extent it, justit.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, it amplifies whatever is gonna cause outrage,
like that's what I think about.
It's like who's gonna say themost outrageous thing?
And then you know that's thewhole I.
That's what I think about.
It's like who's gonna say themost outrageous thing?
And then you know that's thewhole I.
That's that's where griftingcomes from.
That's exactly what that is isit's like this platform is just
amplifies that so much yeah andit's.
There's no room for nuance,like unless you're paying money,

(11:57):
you can't even write.

Speaker 4 (11:58):
But so many words, it's all like I don't know I
just we've also had thisconversation about like changing
opinions too, and like later inthe show we're going to talk to
Richard Hanania, who's likechanged his opinions on so many
different topics.
And that like that politicalevolution is fascinating to me.
But, like you know, kelly,you've also changed your

(12:20):
opinions on lots of things.
I've changed my opinions onlots of things.
I've changed my opinions onlots of things and I feel like
social media and the public eyeis not conducive to that, which
is very frustrating, becausetruth requires the ability to be
flexible and to like changeyour views, but social media
rewards people who are nottruthful but who are like loyal

(12:43):
super soldiers and never changetheir view ever, and that's so
scary to me.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
So yeah, so I want to talk about none of this is
planned just so people know, butI want to talk about this.
I want to talk by the time thisvideo comes out.
Last week we had Colin Wrighton the show and I actually just
finished editing that entireepisode before we recorded

(13:09):
tonight and I want to talkthrough how we think that went,
because I kind of feel like wewalked into it and I was really
there to.
I was really like there to likey'all know me, I don't have a
maximalist position on kidstransitioning but I really

(13:30):
wanted an answer on some thingslike how he valued, like you
know, cis lives that may regretstuff versus trans lives.
And I really noticed, as I wasediting the episode, like I felt
like I was the main one kind ofasking him those hard questions
.
So I mean, did I just do y'alllike agree with his political

(13:50):
project?
Were you afraid to disagreewith him?
Like what was kind of the vibelike with that?

Speaker 3 (13:57):
mixed feelings from my point of view, because I saw
where Colin was coming from.
I didn't feel like he was justfighting the element of kids
transitioning, like justfighting the element of kids
transitioning, like just for thesake of it, like he seemed like
he had a lot of good data andlike points that he was making.
But I also kind of saw what you,the points you were making,
brie, and it was like it's sotough because it's like how do

(14:21):
you help keep a gateway open forthe right kids, like that was
really.
The issue was like it was justin how do you identify them?
And then how do you, how do youlike do it in a way, how do you
allow them the space totransition that doesn't push
them down the road, that inertiaelement, like the inertia of
transition when it's not mayberight for them, versus the kids

(14:42):
that are actually going to comethrough and be like, yeah, this
was totally right for me and itwas like we were talking at that
, but it was it's tough to getat the essence of that and I
feel like taff and kelly bothhave experiences that go into
that and it's like how do we,how do we know, like, who is
really the right person formedical transition when they're,

(15:03):
you know, underneath,underneath, under 18.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
I mean we still don't know, even with me and Tav here
, who knows what, if one of usregrets our transition in like
20 years, I mean I don't thinkthat's gonna happen as long as
you're alive.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
I mean, you could always say that.

Speaker 4 (15:17):
I definitely regret it some days.
I mean so I think you didsomething that's like so
valuable on that podcast whichis really seriously challenging
the guest, and I also think thatit's so easy to just agree and
it's also really easy to justlike signal like I'm critical of
the trans movement and havethat be your only message.

(15:39):
It's really hard to like injectany kind of nuance and you know
, in that that conversation I dothink you are like mostly the
one who are like who's likearguing with colin, and I also
have my disagreements with colin, like I, I think, fundamentally
agree with you, which is thatlike I think there probably
should be a window for people totransition under 18 and that

(16:01):
should be done under theguidance of medical experts and
probably should be limited toyou know, a certain type of
person who we think is going tobe a good candidate for
transition, and I would haveloved like had more like back
and forth with colin about that,um.
But I think just nature of theshow like it's hard to have like
a three-way debate wherethere's three different

(16:23):
positions, um, and so I was okay, like I sort of backed away
from my position and took therole of maybe being like oh, I
agree with you, brianna, here,or I agree with you, colin here,
and I think that's just thenature of the show.
But at the end of the day, Ithink when people watch that,
they see that go live, they'regoing to appreciate your
viewpoint, um, even if it's likea minority, they're going to

(16:47):
see that as really courageous.
And you know, I think we'reprobably going to get more shit
for it.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
So really I think it's gonna be the other.
I can see already what theTERFs are gonna say, like look
at Brianna, like asking thesehard questions, so real coded to
what you said before where youwere.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
Like you know you made that statement about how
you always thought that if youtransitioned before you were an
adult, that that would havefixed, like all your problems.
But in talking with kelly andum taff it's like you you
realize that may not be the case, okay, because there's it's
mixed vibes and it's like wheredoes the confidence in the

(17:24):
decision to transition come from?
That's like what I alwayswonder.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah.
Well, this is something I'vethought a lot about, like from
editing this.
I'm saying this to both of you,but there's a reason.
Every single older trans womanlike regrets they didn't have
your experiences, because Ithink both of y'all are
blissfully unaware of where thestory goes.
If you're forced to keeprepressing and it's, it's not

(17:50):
anywhere good and I think I'mreally happy that you avoided
that damage.
But also, in editing the show,I realized, like, like it's
stunning to me to have to hearyou you say that, because I
think for me it was so hardearned, like my role, that I
almost feel like I value it in away that you can't get any

(18:14):
other way, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
Yeah, and I say this in the show too, but I think I'm
conscious of the fact that myexperience is kind of different.
I mean, every time I bring upmy perspectives on my own
transition publicly, pretty muchevery trans woman disagrees
with me, right?
So it's not like it's not likeit's just you and me, brianna, I
think it's like every othertrans woman and me.

(18:37):
We're like I think I'mdefinitely in the minority where
I'm like, you know, I look atthe total, you know improvement
in mental health that I've hadand I think that, like, maybe
there is some, but it's a kindof minor and I'm like, is that
worth?
You know everything I've givenup for it.
I sometimes do this calculus andin times when I'm feeling

(18:59):
really down, I do that calculusand I think it was not worth it.
And in times when I'm feelingreally good, I think like, oh
yeah, it's great that I can wearwomen's clothing, but I think
that it's just I'm unique in thesense that, like, for me it was
less of a, less of an intense,you know, just like outright

(19:19):
positive thing.
So, yeah, I say that in theshow and I definitely don't like
want to speak for trans womenin general when I say sure and,
to be clear, I totally respectthat viewpoint.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Right like it's your own life, make up your own
assessment about it.
I don't want to be that transwoman telling you you're wrong,
because you're my friend and youcan make your own assessment
about your experiences.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Yeah, I know I love that and you know I sometimes
wonder too, like what would lifehave been like if I had
transitioned younger?
And I say younger because it'sjust like I still I guess I'm
considered sort of youngtransitioner, depending on how
you look at it.
I mean, if you're before 30, Iguess it's sort of younger.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, but at the same age.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
Oh, yeah.
So then, yeah, it's like so Imean, but for me, like I, that's
to answer the question I sortof posed earlier, because I
think about this a good bit likewhere does the confidence come
from?
It came from the fact that Ilooked at the most critical
narratives of transition and Iwas like I still want this, and
it was because my life was goingso downhill, on the precipice

(20:25):
of gender dysphoria, and it'slike I took it, took that
progression, though, to realizethat I needed this, like if they
hadn't, if I had done it sooner, I would have been left
wondering what would my lifebeen like?
Yeah, in terms of the intensityof gender dysphoria, right,
like that was sort of the themeI saw with you all too, and it
was like it had me thinking alittle bit.

(20:46):
I'm like, huh, maybe there issome merit to like the age of 18
or something you know, totransition, but then I also
think about the issue ofmasculinization and what
testosterone does, and it's likewhat's the sweet spot?
Where is that like moment forthe people that are really gonna
benefit from this?
And it's more questions Like,oh, can't get away from it.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
I mean, I think it's hard to I wonder about this a
lot.
Like I have a toughness thatjust other people don't have or
will at stuff and I tend to likejust have an initiative to
start things up, like I'm areally good project manager and

(21:32):
it's hard for me not to admitthat those are all skills that
started like when I was stillliving as a you know man at 18.
So I often I wonder how much ofwhat makes me a leader like
comes from me and how much comesfrom the experience, the

(21:54):
difficult experiences of beingtrans, because, like you two are
not the only people.
I know that transitioned aschildren and it's, know that
transitioned as children andit's.
I've just never met anyone withthat kind of um, I don't know.
I think I almost think thetrauma can make you stronger in
some ways, if that makes sense.
I hope that's not a littlething no, I think that's true.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
I mean, we spoke about Jonathan Height earlier.
Yeah, one of the things that hereally talks about, yeah, yeah,
exactly, is that like?
sometimes embracing those hardthings is really important and
if you always shy away from them, that can be totally
destructive.
So yeah, I mean I think thatyou can get like a silver lining

(22:38):
in all of it, um, but I dothink that like strictly
speaking, um, it would be betterfor me if I had traced earlier.
I mean, like I think everyonefeels this way right, Like
usually when you transitionearlier, like you do get
benefits from that and like youknow I think about I dealt with

(22:58):
a lot of struggles, feeling likesocially ostracized in high
school.
Um, and I think about like,about like if I transitioned in
middle school and then, like youknow, switched, moved counties
or whatever and just like goneto high school like totally, you
know, no one knowing that I'mtrans, maybe that would have
been like really important forsocialization and like maybe a

(23:21):
lot of the negatives that Iexperienced as a result of
transition are not like innateto transitioning young, but in
fact like a result of kind ofthe bigotry that.
I faced.
So you know at the end of theday, it's very hard for me to
like make an obviouspronouncement Like the
transitioning at this age isgood.

(23:42):
I think what's important isthat people that I can just be
like totally raw and authenticand express all of my
experiences and let people workthrough them, because people can
compare that to brianna'sexperience or skyler's or
kelly's and it's in thesynthesis of all of this you

(24:02):
actually get, get goodtransition advice and you learn
things.
So I just think at the end ofthe day, the important thing
more than anything else is thatwe all feel comfortable to lay
bare our experiences and justwork through them, and I feel so
comfortable with you guys doingthat, so I really appreciate it
.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
I feel the same way.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
Same yeah.
What about you, kelly?

Speaker 4 (24:31):
what do you?
What do?

Speaker 2 (24:31):
you think, yeah, I mean, I mean, yeah, I don't know
what, like, the right age foranyone to transition is.
I, I mean, I think Brie was onto something like a week ago
when she said that you know,it's a lot easier, easier for
females and males to transitionafter 18.
So I just think maybe the answeris holding off all female to
males until they're legal adultsand then just making it so F to

(24:53):
M or M to Fs only get diagnosedthrough qualified psychiatrists
, like I've said in the past.
But I don't even know what theanswer is, because I mean, a
psychiatrist also told me withinlike less than six months that
it was good to transition.
So I don't even know anymore.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
So, as I've been editing the show, you tell that
story over and over, like whatwas so bad about her?
Did you just not respect her asa clinician?
Did you feel like she justwasn't qualified?
What were you looking for fromthere that you didn't get?

Speaker 2 (25:24):
I mean, it was a psychiatrist and a therapist I
was seeing simultaneously.
My psychiatrist was a man, mytherapist was a woman, and both
of them I was able to get thepass for HRT within six months.
I don't know what I was lookingfor.
I just feel like it was kind oflike quick.
I mean, I don't know, I don'tknow, this is just such a weird
topic for me.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
I feel like I'm in a very negative headspace at the
moment, so like I don't know, Doyou feel like resistance or
like a little bit of, I don'tknow, gentle challenging is the
right word, but like moreprobing or questioning with that
.
Would that have made you feelmore like satisfied by the
therapeutic process?
I'm just curious, Like I reallydon't know.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
I wish I had like an answer for you, like I guess
like just more time or more likeevaluation, but maybe they did
all the evaluating that theyneeded to.
I mean, I guess I don't likeregret my transition.
I just kind of wish I was borna girl, because I just kind of
feel like this in general, Ifeel that to my bones.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
But I also know if I'd just been born a girl, I'd
be another racist redneck inMississippi, probably married to
a banker living in a housethere, whose entire life would
be about going to church and whowas dating who on the local
high school football team andthen go there every friday with

(26:47):
all the mississippians and justthat would be my life.
And I mean I'm not trying to belike it's, it's really hard.
I mean I think I've I hope thisdoesn't sound arrogant, but
I've I've objectively had aninteresting life and an
interesting career.
And you know it's hard to notargue that this experience, like

(27:10):
, is a really, really big partof them.
So it's hard for me tounderstand, like, where I begin
and where this thing that nearlykilled me like integrates with
that.
Like maybe I'm just a me.
This is just who I am.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
I don't know yeah, I mean you really, yeah, you have
had an incredible career.
I mean, I do think about thatas well in my own life because
I've benefited in so many waysfrom transition, just like sort
of in ancillary ways right likenot directly, but you know,

(27:51):
posting sexy pictures online.
I think the novelty of the factthat I was trans really played
into that and like I see likebeautiful, you know, cisgender
women, they like struggle totake off in any way, as you know
, posting sexy pictures, butlike I was able to get a lot of
attention, um, despite, you know, just sort of being like an

(28:15):
awkward, gangly, uh, teenager,and that benefited me a lot.
So I don don't know, I'vebenefited in some ways and
certainly grown a lot from theexperience.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
You know, a really good friend of mine is Cliff
Bleszinski, the guy that madeGears of War just a fantastic
guy.
And I see his wife, lauren,who's truly one of the most
beautiful women you will eversee in your entire life and he
was talking about, like, herstruggles to, um, you know, form

(28:49):
a career on tiktok and, again,beyond beautiful, beyond
interesting, married to someonevery famous, lovely personality
like lauren.
I could not say a bad sentenceabout her.
So I hear what you're sayingabout there being certain
advantages, like, but at thesame time, like there is a

(29:11):
melancholy to all four of usthat I mean I, I, I really love
spending time with you guysbecause I feel like the value of
the show is I get to hang withlike three people that
understand that every singleweek.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:28):
Totally.
And also like yeah, understandsome of the darker aspects too
and like are willing to discussthat, because I don't know the
trans community.
It can really enforce a kind oflike social code on you Like
you have to believe certainthings in order to like interact
with a lot of trans people andthat is, you know, destructive

(29:49):
and toxic in its own way.
So I really appreciate hangingout with you guys and, like
kelly, I just like you sayyou're like in a bad headspace
right now I want to be likethere to support you because I
feel like yeah.
I just know that place so well,and I know what it's like to be
attacked on Twitter and like andto just feel horrible about

(30:11):
yourself.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
So yeah, I don't know , I appreciate it, I mean, but
it's like I don't know there'snothing to really like be there
for it just kind of is what itis, I mean how do you feel about
it?

Speaker 4 (30:24):
What's your head space like right now?
What thoughts are going throughyour head?

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I don't know.
I just kind of I don't know.
To me, transition was alwaysabout like being like, like just
pretty and like having men likebe attracted to me, and I feel
like that sounds really bad.
But it's really yeah, it's whatyou think you know, and then you
just kind of get to the pointwhere, like, you are like in a

(30:52):
relationship and you feel likeyou're in your forever
relationship and you know, andthen it just kind of makes you
realize you can't have likechildren and that that's not
really like a future for you,and you kind of just like
question wow, so it's, my lifeisn't about like getting people
to be attracted to me anymoreoutside of like the one, and

(31:13):
it's not about family and it'skind of just I don't know.
And then, like I think you guyshave much more better mental
health than me just because youhave like real jobs and you have
like I don't know, you go outand interact in the real world.
I feel like for me, I'm kind ofjust like trapped in, like
trapped in the castle or like myshitty little house, and I just

(31:33):
deal with like I don't knowjust negative shit all day.
I feel like I'm addicted totwitter and social media and I I
just feel like my life is aboutcreating like porn and like I
don't know, just like, okay, Imean, I'm glad I have this and
like I enjoy doing this, but itjust I don't know, even just
when we like talk about thingslike when we had, like, you know

(31:53):
, our last guest on, or wheneverwe had guests on.
I just feel like everyone isvery like much smarter than me
and is much more involved inpolitics than I am and I feel
like somehow I've like inbetween, like my OnlyFans and
stuff, I've gotten myselfinvolved in like this political
mess when I really don't likeknow anything about what I'm
talking about and I just feellike I'm like retarded or like
stupid and like I I don't know Ijust don't really feel like I

(32:18):
contribute that much and I don'teven feel like, as I'm getting
older, I just don't even feellike I have as much sex appeal
as I once did, and it's just.
And then, like Twitter justmakes me more aware of like
insecurities that I've nevereven like thought about before,
and it just.
I don't know everything justfeels like kind of empty yeah,
I've been there like a hundredpercent, and I think I had this

(32:42):
realization.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
I started to look like a lot older when I turned
like 21, 22, and suddenly I hadbags under my eyes and like my
face was sagging and I could seeit like in the numbers too.
And that's a really hard thingabout OnlyFans is that, you know
, I had this numerical count oflike how valuable I was to the

(33:06):
world and it was tied to myappearance and that appearance
was like uh, deteriorating in insome way that like people
notice Right and like I stillthink that like I can be
beautiful and I think it'll bebeautiful until like my forties,
I think it'll be so milfy anddah, dah dah, but like it's.

(33:27):
It's real that like guys like acertain look right and like so
a lot of guys will like likekind of a younger look, um, and
maybe I have to wait like 15years before I like age into the
milf category and then, like Iget a different set of guys.
But I feel like in my childhoodI never really developed that
sense of self-confidence orstable identity, even really,

(33:49):
and so I have really struggledto value myself beyond how other
people value me.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
So yeah, I don't know .

Speaker 4 (34:02):
I just feel like I relate a lot and I don't want to
tell too much of my'm like, Iwant to just hone in on your
feelings.
Um, but just know that like Isuper relate on everything that
you're saying, it feels likesomething that I have lived a
hundred percent I, I, I feellike it's for well.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Okay, I want to go one at a time.
Most of all, I want to bringsome mom energy and say, kelly,
the way you see yourself is justit's bullshit.
Sorry, it's just not true.
Well, what is true is you needto make different decisions, and

(34:48):
the decisions you make rightnow in your 20s are going to
affect what you're doing in your30s and your 40s.
And you know, I do stronglyencourage you to develop things
outside of your looks, to do acareer with.
Like you know, the show we'redoing right now has a lot of
post-production on it.
Work on the networking with me.

(35:10):
Get to know my really goodfriend pixie.
Like her entire job is aboutnetworking with content creators
.
She's brilliant at it, right.
So I mean, you know there's,there's, there's stuff you do
need to be doing.
And again, mom energy, you needto get the courage to leave
your house more, like you justdo.

(35:30):
So there's some stuff inside ofyou that's holding you back,
but never doubt that you've gotmore worth than 99% of people
out there.
Kelly, genuinely, I know so many, many people.
You are hardly the only hottrans girl I know and I invited

(35:50):
you onto this project because Isee something in you with a ton
of value and I can see thatclearly.
Sky, I'm sure you can see it.
I'm sure you can see it.
So like, like, we see thisclearly, it's just that you
can't so like.
You know that that's how I feel.
Yeah, taff.

(36:10):
As far as the the, I feel likethere's such a a lie about
getting older, and I was told toyoung women and I understand
this because I remember being inmy 20s and looking at women in
their 30s and going, oh my God,I've only got this much time
left.
I'm so screwed if I don't dothat and then you get to 30 and

(36:32):
you're like, oh, these women areactually beautiful.

Speaker 3 (36:35):
I'm fine.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
I know that gender criticals are going to look at
this, interpret this as a dissagainst cis women, but I don't
mean this.
You are going to value stuff asyou get older that most cis
women just are not.
You're going to be fit, you'regoing to be doing makeup, you're
going to be doing hair, andthere are tons of men that are

(36:59):
most attracted to women in their30s and 40s.
I just went to LA and spent afew days there.
I must have had 10 guys try topick me up, and I'm not even
pretty, so it's like there's-.

Speaker 4 (37:12):
I might say otherwise , though that's a pretty good
indication.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Well, I'm not, but I'm saying.
I'm saying that there is amarketplace of.
There is a marketplace of.
There's a marketplace, nomatter where you are.
It's not that you have tocompare yourself to cis women in
your 20s, it's you just have tolook good for your age cohort,
and that's going to be a loteasier.
I think it's actually easierfor trans girls as we get older,

(37:38):
because we're so like skinny,yeah, yeah well, that's a great
point.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
And I mean, like you're so like inspirational to
me on this.
Um, just because I like yes,okay, you like don't believe
this when I say this, but like Isee you posting like pictures
on twitter and like you'vegotten like ffs and like you're
posting those photos and youlook gorgeous and you're like
thriving and like you clearlylike take pride in your

(38:07):
appearance.
And I think that I had thisexperience, you know, a few
years ago where, like I realizedthat I was doing a certain sort
of like thing in terms of likecatering towards male attraction
, um, that like I was leaning onmy youth I guess, right, and

(38:28):
like there's a way in which youcan lean on your youth and it's
like very effective to gettingmen's attention, and I just
realized that I couldn't lean onthat anymore and that was like
kind of scary for me.
But I think you're so right inthe sense that like that doesn't
necessarily make you likeunattractive.
It just means that, like youdevelop other sources of of

(38:51):
beauty and you become like themost beautiful version of
yourself at any age, as soon asyou're able to do that so yeah I
don't know.
It really resonates with me whatyou're saying and yeah, as much
as you get all like bashful andlike, don't accept it.
Like you really are aninspiration from you're saying
and yeah, as much as you get alllike bashful and like, don't
accept it like you really are aninspiration from this right to
me, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
I mean I think it helps that you know I was not
pretty for so long and you knowlike it's been a lot of FFS to
get to where I am today and thattook a lot of work.
But so I think it kind offorced me to develop other
things of value for society, tovalue me for, which I think has
been good for my career.

(39:31):
But look, just never discountthe fact that you can talk video
games Like hand to God.
There was a gorgeous,absolutely gorgeous man that was
at the Hilton where I wasstaying.
He came up in a Porsche 992 andI just happened to mention it

(39:52):
to him and I understand stuffabout Porsche and this man in a
suit who's just like he'ssitting there and is like 20 out
of 10 attracted to me justbecause I'm the girl that
understands Porsche.
So so do you know what I mean?
Like what you just got to workwith what you've got, if that
makes sense.

Speaker 4 (40:11):
Yeah, and that's what I would say too to like kelly,
um, because, like you can likefind so many sources of value in
your life that go so far beyond, either like you know men being
attracted to you, or even likehow you feel about yourself, or

(40:31):
you know whether or not you'restarting a family, and I really,
I really believe that, like anyof us can find that, and like
you, you will be okay as likescary and like dark as it is and
I've been there I do think youare like, you are loved you are

(40:56):
loved deeply by, by us, by ourboyfriend.
Um, you're loved by so manypeople and it's going to be okay
, like you're going to feelbetter, and it might be a week
or a month or a year, but youwill develop those things that
you really feel pride in that goso far beyond.
You know what you.

(41:16):
You know what's really playingin your head right now.
So I believe in you, yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
And I I just want to say like something that helps me
is whenever I'm feeling down orI'm not, like I'm in a low
point, like I just think about Ineed to set goals.
I need to put my mind and myenergy towards something other
than myself.
See, that's what like allowsyou into that space.
Is that you're not you know,it's just means like you're too
idle, you're not doing enough,and this is like I'm talking

(41:43):
about myself here, like this ismy own reflection and I'm and
I'll realize, like I need to setgoals and I need to be working
towards those goals, because Ineed to have measurements of
progress to help me throughthose times, because you're not
always going to feel good andyou're not always going to feel
bad.
It'll change week by week or dayby day, and it's better to have
anchor points and, honestly,this is part of why I believe in

(42:08):
my faith.
Actually, like I got me andspirituality fills.
This fills the space, it helpskeep me grounded in like I hate
saying like cheesy tradition,but it's like there's a reason
why religious people arereligious and it's not just
because it's like I don't knowwhat their program to think or
it's what their community thinksit provides a source of truth,

(42:31):
a source of like purpose intheir life.
And for me that's always beensomething that like I've sort of
struggled with a little bit,but I've come back to it and
seeing like there is somethingpowerful in having like, in just
believing in something morethan yourself um and that's like
really anchored me.

(42:52):
So I don't know like if thathelps at all, like it's so it's
just an option.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
It's just I'm trying to give you options, that's the
goal I think it's good to havemeaning oh, go ahead, kelly,
sorry yeah no, I was just sayinglike I hear you on like the
faith thing, like sometimes I'velike thought about like taking
up religion or just like lookinginto christianity, which is
what like my mom like grew upteaching us, just as like a way
to like, like you said, likebelieve in something like

(43:19):
greater than yourself, or justlike find like a sense of
purpose that's outside of you socan I ask a?

Speaker 1 (43:27):
really?
I I feel like this is kind of alittle melancholy here can I
ask a really?
This is a real question for allof y'all.
Um, so I've talked to you abouthow I did psychedelics um last
year.
A whole bunch of it.
It was a real.
It was really, really helpfulfor um, for my trauma, and it

(43:50):
really changed my personality.
Um, you know, it's not a mistakethat a lot of the arc I'm on
right now is after uh, I didthat because it did make me feel
very fearless about what I wantto do.
But one of the things thatclinical ketamine does is you're
sitting there and tripping andyou're going into the K-hole, as

(44:11):
I call it, and you really feelyourself stripped away.
All these stories aboutyourself that you tell, all of
it it just gets taken apart oneby one and you're just staring
there at the core of yourselfand this is so dark.

(44:32):
But it's also really beautifulthat what I found at the core of
myself repeatedly when I didthat was this desire to be a
woman, was this desire to be awoman Like that fundamental
thing that I want and cannothave.
that's the essence of what I am,and I think that like leads to

(44:58):
a melancholy and a pain thatnever leaves me, ever.
And you know, as I've like cometo this realization that
transitioning early would nothave cured that like.
Do y'all feel that too?
Like this pain inside of you ofalways wanting to be something
you can never become?

Speaker 2 (45:17):
totally.
Yeah, like I, I mean, I I feellike we're kind of just giving
the terfs what we want or whatthey want.
But like I mean, I feel likewe're kind of just giving the
terfs what we want or what theywant.
But like I mean I feel like weall kind of know that,
regardless of, like, how much wetransition or how much we pass,
like we'll, we'll quote unquotenever be a real woman, which is
true.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
It's true never be female yeah I, that's so tricky
for me because, well one, I'venever had a tripped into the K
hole or whatever you like now.
But like I mean, my transitionwas sort of making peace with
that, like I felt.
Like you know, I kind ofreconciled with the fact that

(45:54):
there's a side of me that longsfor feminine expression.
But it goes beyond justexpression.
It's like I want to embody asfeminine of myself as I possibly
can and I guess it came fromviewing transition as a gift
rather than something that I wasdeserved.
That sort of allowed me thespace of like wow, I get to do

(46:15):
this.
Thank God I'm born in the 2000sand I'm not born in the 1800s.
This would be so bad, I guess.
I don't know, it's a differentperspective, for sure, but it's
like I just think of all thetime periods where this wouldn't
have been possible totransition and I'm like
perpetually grateful that Icould.
But like I guess through, likeI don't know, it's like I'm I'm

(46:37):
happy, like I'm so I'm so happywith who I get to be that the
longing for it was all beforetransition for me, like now,
that I've transitioned.
It's like I'm so happy and likeI don't know.
I feel like that's not always acommon experience and maybe it
has to do with the fact thatgender dysphoria was so was so
constant for me and so long,because, like I feel like I've

(47:00):
been experiencing that since Idon't know.
It got really bad when I waslike 22, so that was like three
years about before I actuallydid the medical transition.
But like before that there werelike spurts and like definitely
periods of time where it wasreally a problem for me and it
just I, my resolution was alwayslike it'll go away if I ignore

(47:20):
it or if I just pretend itdoesn't exist and it's like that
doesn't work.
Like I, by the time, like whenI was like in my upper twenties
and I was leaving college, I waslike all right, you know what?
Like I need to face this headon because I need to move on
with my fricking life and thisis like a problem and it was.
It really got to me in my firstjob and it was like I was having

(47:42):
trouble at work, I was havingdisruptions in my friendships
and it was like I just I need tomove forward.
And because that worked andit's like it's.
Yeah, it would be amazing if Icould be a real woman.
I admit that, but I've madepeace with the fact that I can't
be, and it's like.
That's where, like I'm.
I don't want to ramble on, butI'm just trying to make the

(48:03):
point that, like for for me,transition was coming to grips
and accepting the fact that Iwon't ever be a real woman, but
at least I can be a feminizedmale, pass through society as a
woman to the people that arewilling to extend that grace.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
I mean I 100% got that sky.
Obviously it makes it so muchbetter.
I mean I 100% get that Skye.
Obviously I mean it makes it somuch better.
What I'm saying, though, is I'mlike what, 15 years further
into the book than you are, andlike there is a sadness that is
just, and maybe it's just ourpersonalities are different, but
there is a melancholy there anda pain that just does not go

(48:41):
away, and, kelly, I sense thatin you to a certain extent.
Taff, I think it's.
I sense that there with yousometimes, and unless I'm
imagining that, so I don't know,I think this is, I think this
is kind of the nature of thebeast, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yeah, I mean it's hard.
I yeah sorry, I just I feellike I don't like have like the
right things to say um, it'svery hard to find the right
words.
Yeah, but I do want to like testyou know of, like, oh, who can
like dress up the best?
Or and when I say like dress up, it's like who can get the most

(49:23):
surgery is, go the best surgeonto look the most like a real
woman, and it's just like it.
I get like so deep in thoughtinto that because it's just like
.
I mean, I understand transitionis, is a part of it and that
includes surgery, but it's likeat what point do like we just
learn to like accept ourselvesas we are and just like have
some love and.

(49:44):
I understand like cis women dealwith that too, but it's just, I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
It's worse for us?

Speaker 3 (49:50):
I think it's worse for us you see a picture of how
you used to look.
That always does it for me likeI mean, I'm just being honest
like that's.
All I gotta do is see.
Oh, that's who I used to be.
Whoa, okay, yay, like that'snot me today.
Okay, I know I'm weird.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Like it's fine 100% understand what you're talking
about, I guess.
But there is a.
There is a challenge of makingpeace with things like that you
can't change, like I cannotchange how tall I am, I just
want to die, like it.
Just it was killing me today.
Like I'm over at Legacy Placein Dedham and you know great, I

(50:29):
just have my hair done and allof that, and like all I can
think about is how tall I am,which I just hate.
You know, there's nothing I cando about that.
Life has to go on and, to acertain extent, like we have to
make peace with parts of thisand it's it's difficult it's

(50:50):
kind of our

Speaker 4 (50:51):
life mission.
Yeah, yeah, I think there's away in which you can sort of
feel like the closer you get,the further your goal is.
And yeah, and what skylar'stalking about, like looking back
at where you've come from, um,you know, maybe you've been

(51:16):
summiting the mountain thus far.
As you get closer and closer tothe peak, it gets steeper and
steeper and you're craning yourneck and, like you know, the top
of the mountain is likedisappearing into a point in
front of you.
But, like, if you look back,you can be like, oh wow, I've
actually I've made so muchprogress and this is incredible.
Um, and I think that you cansort of choose to love, like

(51:40):
where you're at, or you can likeagonize about the fact that you
might never get to the very topof the peak, and either way, I
think it has to do with whereyou direct your sense of meaning
or value.
Yeah, and yeah, that's good.

(52:01):
I mean, I think it'sinteresting that you're talking
about like ketamine and how itlike strips everything away.
You like stripped everythingaway.
You saw like you're somethingwithin you was like pointing
towards femininity or likewomanhood, and ultimately like
finding a lack of it withinyourself.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
Right, Well, not finding a lack of it inside
myself.
It was that that desire totransition is what I am right.
That is the fundamental, basicbuilding block of me.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
Yeah, okay, well, yeah, I mean that it begs so
many questions, because I thinkI guess what we're getting at is
that, like, this desire canexpress itself healthily or
unhealthily, and one of the waysfor it to express itself
unhealthily is this desire toalways, to never be at rest, to

(52:55):
never take satisfaction in whereyou are and to be always like
chasing more and more, ever moreimpossible goals, and that you
can really like torture yourselfwith that kind of.
But also I think that, like, youcan take a lot of joy in the
actual things you've achieved.

(53:16):
This sounds kind of obvious orcliche, but, like brianna,
you're talking about how you areso happy with the fact that you
have been able to maintain alevel of appearance, um, you
know, as you've aged, and you'veaged beautifully, and you see
the fruits of that with, like,these guys who are hitting on
you.
That is really like anincredible testament to how far

(53:40):
you've come and all the goodthings you've been able to
create in your life bycultivating femininity and so,
like I guess I try to focus onthat, like, yeah, I'll never be
a woman.
But now I'm in a world where Ifeel comfortable putting on like
I don't know silly little likestrawberry earrings and like a

(54:00):
dress and like that and I wouldfind those things cute and
desirable if I was a man umbecause that's just like I just
like those things and I thinkit's good to be like okay, I'm
doing something I like that'scool.
So I don't know.

(54:20):
I guess that's how I see itthere is a cost to that.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
I found, before transition me, you found this to
sky.
Uh, I just have likerelationships with, um, you know
, girls and I would think thingslike exactly like that.
Oh, my god, those strawberryearrings are so cute.
I love those, right.
It wouldn't be just that Iwanted to wear them, it would be
that I wanted to be able tocommunicate stuff like that,

(54:47):
right, and the fact that I getto have those relationships now,
um, like like it, it will neverstop being meaningful to me,
like there's something nicepleasure in a way that I, I know
I could pass a thousand cischicks on the street and they
would just completely take itfor granted.
They don't understand.
They don't understand what.
It's, a way that I, I know Icould pass a thousand cis chicks
on the street and they wouldjust completely take it for
granted.
They don't understand.
They don't understand what it'slike to be kept from this stuff

(55:10):
.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
So hard one, for sure yeah, that's so interesting
because I don't know like I feellike part of my transition was
accepting that side of myself.
But I wasn't satisfied withlike because I did it in
increments.
So there was a long phase wherelike that just led to this
perception where I was a gay manand like.

(55:31):
That was fine, but it wasn'tthe target of my problem.
Like that wasn't the essence ofmy gender dysphoria.
I wanted to like for lack ofbetter terms have the body of a
female version of myself as muchas possible.
Like that was what reallycomprised the essence of
dysphoria.
Cause I don't want to like.
I don't want to confuse thestereotypes for like.
Otherwise, you know gay menthat are able to just be like.

(55:55):
That's me and that's finebecause I believe in that too,
but it's just like.
Like, in other words, societyshould justify, should tolerate
gender non-conformity.
It's just that there's going tobe a subset that are going to
have a problem of a cognitivedissonance with the body they
have and it's going to persistbeyond those things and those
are the candidates fortransition and it's like the

(56:17):
goal is just how to help, how toidentify those people without
like encouraging it too much, orwithout like not allowing it.
It's like there's a sweet spotand that's where, like the tug
of war, always is.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
I don't know, that's just I really this is.
You know, it's so interestingskies.
I've gotten to know you like.
I feel so many similaritieswith your story, but I almost
feel like the beast we'redealing with is fundamentally
different in some way.
I don't know, it's, it's very.
I haven't put my finger on ittotally yet, but I think we keep

(56:52):
shooting the show I mean yeahoh yeah, you, she just you seem
like happier.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
I don't know yeah, I feel like you're you're just,
it's almost like you don'texperience sadness.
Look me which I'm kind of like.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
Oh my gosh, no well it's, it's all for my 12 cats.
I mean, let's be real okay, butthat's a.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
That's a great point.
Like you have these 12 cats,that's a huge source of meaning
in your life.
They're like transcendtransition, my babies.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
But like a lot of it too is the decision making
process and like not notembracing transition as a
pathway.
I I hate saying that, but it'slike I put the brakes and the
resistance on myself because Ididn't trust therapy to do it
for me.
Exactly what kelly was sort ofsaying with like six months, and
she's like, well, I don't know,was that good therapy?

(57:45):
And and it's like I mean I wasa little bit longer, but it
wasn't like.
But before I ever went to theclinics, I was challenging
myself from the beginning andit's like, and that's why I went
and I, you know, banked mysperm and I'm hopeful to have
children.
Like that's part of my roadmap,but like I want that for all
trans people and that'ssomething I want to see part of
my roadmap, but I want that forall trans people and that's
something I want to see part ofcare.

(58:06):
And it's like I don't know howto raise the standards other
than just by talking about itand just helping people figure
it out.
It doesn't mean everyone needsto choose that, but they should
have an opportunity to choosethat, or at least in a
therapeutic setting.
And it's like and then there'sfurthermore, I think there
should be a waiting period oflike figuring out yourself when

(58:27):
it comes to like living is theopposite sex?
Yeah, like you've got to ruleout those things, because what
if you are?
Just because what I've learnedby listening to the
detransitioners is that there'sa lot of them that had same-sex
attraction and their therapistaffirmed them too quickly and
they went down the road oftransition, only to regret that

(58:49):
later and speak out against it.
And I'm like you know, I get it, it was wrong for you.
And there's a lot of people andI'm still of the opinion where
you know, as long as I'm alive,there's a potential that I'll
detransition.
But I can confidently say thatI would not regret my transition
whatsoever because it got methrough things that I could not

(59:10):
otherwise get through.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
A hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
And that's, that's the defining characteristic, and
it's like that's the essencethat we need to be working with
people to help them understand,and so there's no way that
approach life.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
That's not, on honest terms, like you just can't put
a value on that.
So I fully agree with that.
So can I admit something toy'all about my K-hole that I've
never told anyone else?
Please go for it.
This is super politicallyincorrect, okay, so okay.

(59:48):
So I have had exactly twogirlfriends.
Okay, it was one when I waslike 14, from 14 to 19.
That was just.
It really was like I was lonely.
And then I had a girl that Idated for a few months, right
before I came out, who wasbasically a dude.
But I have always, through mywhole life, I've thought that I

(01:00:09):
had some bisexuality, like someof that, and one of the things
that really fundamentallychanged for me after doing
ketamine is any attraction towomen at all.
I feel like I really understoodwhere that was coming from,
which was trauma, and it is justgone.

(01:00:32):
Like I feel nothing whatsoeverand I'm like, did this change my
brain on this?
Did I just?
Was I just confused about whatI was feeling this whole time.
It was like y'all know thatfeeling like where you're, like,
oh, you're so pretty, I want tobe like you, right, like is
that what I thought that was?

(01:00:53):
Because it just it really mademe like super straight in a way.
I don't and I'm googling uphave anyone else had this
experience.

Speaker 4 (01:01:03):
That's so fascinating .
Yeah, wow, no, yeah, I mean, Ithink there's something to that
in the sense that, like, traumacan really warp your brain and

(01:01:30):
it can like radically changemuch easier.
To like prioritize what'simportant and I think that's
probably what happened with youis like you.
I don't know exactly themechanism for how but, like you
probably.
You just saw it for what it wasthis like outgrowth, this
narrative of drama and we'reable to let it go.
That's so powerful because,yeah, I know that I'm certainly
like haunted by my own traumasand narratives and letting go is

(01:01:54):
hard, so it's really good tocome to massachusetts.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
We'll go to the ketamine clinic today.
We'll make a whole weekend.

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
I would totally, totally do that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
Absolutely, it's really good.

Speaker 4 (01:02:04):
It's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:05):
Oh my gosh, it's the best $500 show ever spent.
Ketamine's on break.
K-hole's on break.

Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
Thanks, rihanna, thanks for that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
You'll have a good time.
It's great Like you lay back inthe chair and they inject it
into you.
You just just like go into thisand you're like and like, like
you feel yourself go into it.
Oh my God, it's great.
And then you wake up and you'rejust like processing all the

(01:02:35):
stuff that you were thinkingabout for the rest of your day.
You can see all the hardestparts of yourself like from
outside of yourself, like it's athird person.
So then when the ketamine wearsoff, it doesn't like have any
impact.
It's, it's a third person.
So then when the ketamine wearsoff, it doesn't like have any
impact.
It's it's really beautiful.
That sounds powerful.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
Yeah, yeah sorry about like drugs and psychedelic
experiences as well.
Um, because I've also I mean,I've mostly experienced with
psilocybin, and it's quite anexperience as well I really do

(01:03:09):
different.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
How is it different?

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
I mean, frankly, it sounds quite different, but
again, like I don't know if, um,my psilocybin experience is
just like quite unusual.
I found it to be electrifying,like I felt like I had climbed
to the top of mount olympus andlike stolen zeus's thunderbolt

(01:03:32):
and I was like I could rain itdown on people.
I felt like I had, like youknow, descended to like the
depths of, like bacchanalianwilds and I had slain a tiger
and stolen its heart, like I.
Just my experience ofpsychedelics, you know,
mushrooms, is just, it's verylike raw and wild and I feel

(01:03:54):
like the barrier, the consciousbarrier that keeps me, you know,
within like human customs andlike you know, sort of like
norms had been dissolved and Iwas able to like feel really
directly the rawness of naturearound me.
So, certainly like intense.

(01:04:16):
It made me feel kind of likeraw, wild and, uh, powerful.
Yeah, very interesting, um, butdefinitely like a bit different
but it makes me want to try.
I don't know what I mean,because I would love a more like
um okay, psychedelics, very fun.

(01:04:38):
Um, I would love to strip downto, like you know, remove the
kind of barriers and be able toevaluate myself objectively,
because I feel like that wouldbe like a very growth oriented
thing.
I feel like I would learn it'skind of scary.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
It is really scary, it's really scary all good
things are a little scary.
I think another realizationwhen I came to is like and it's
you get words and feelings thatare like, really meaningful to
you.
It's like realizing that at mycore I am a weapon like to do
stuff, and I think that'sactually really true.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
Yeah that is so fascinating.
Yeah, I can say alcohol doesnothing like that.
Yeah, I don't, that was like my.
Yeah, that's my like I don'tknow.
Wild excursions have all beendrinking, so you can get pretty
wild with that yeah, yeahalcohol is a terrible drug you
can't.
No, I, I, yeah, I completelysecond that.

(01:05:40):
Um, no, that's why I'm like alittle jealous of this whole
ketamine thing.
Um, but um, do you have any?

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
like faith-based objections to doing ketamine or
something like that um, well, Imean it's not like a straight
drug.
It was like in a clinicalsetting.
A doctor prescribed it, youknow yeah it's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
I don't know the legality, but I, I mean I
wouldn't do it just on the basisof of that, probably, um, yeah
to be what's legal inmassachusetts yeah, it is okay
oh god, you don't think I'mdoing back alley drugs, do you?
I enjoy it when it comes tokelly, I know, um no, yeah, but

(01:06:22):
like I just drinking was mywhole thing and that was really
just to like deal with thegender dysphoria back when I was
in college.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Oh yeah, oh my God, I know that one yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Escape.
Take your mind away all thatstuff.

Speaker 4 (01:06:36):
Well, kelly, I mean I don't know if you want to talk
about it, but like I feel likewe've also kind of had similar
experiences trying weed beforeyou and I, um, and the ability
for like that drug to be kind ofan escape, but you, you stopped
doing weed.
I mean, how has that been?
Have you felt a lot betterbecause of that?

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
I mean honestly like I thought it was gonna like make
me like less bipolar and likenot as sad or like up and down,
but I still feel like I'mexactly the same, except it's
like I don't have my vices now.
I wish I liked alcohol.
I sometimes try to like usealcohol every time like I feel
like doing weed and it just likedoesn't hit the same for me.
I'm just not a fan.

(01:07:18):
I've never been like an alcoholperson.
Um, I haven't gone back to weed, though, like ever since I
don't even know how long it'sbeen, but when I said I quit,
like I haven't touched it, likesince, but I had like a real.
Yeah, I had a real problem withweed for like since I was like
19.
I got into it when I was like incollege with an ex and it was
like ever since then I was justlike obsessed with it, like to

(01:07:41):
the point where I was gettinghigh, like literally all the
time.
It would be like I would wakeup, do an edible, oh, the 12
o'clock, two o'clock, hits, doanother edible, and I wouldn't
be like doing like oh, like 10milligrams, like I literally
would have like a 1000 milligramthing of like RSO and I would
do like 300 of it every sessionand I would just be, like high

(01:08:02):
out of my fucking mind like 24 7, and I kind of thought that's
why I was like so crazy onTwitter and so like bipolar with
my takes, but clearly like Istill fucking am this way sober,
so I don't know, but I guessI'm glad I'm off of it because
it's probably not healthy.
But I don't really feel like mymental state has changed that
much.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
I mean, maybe it's worse in some ways, right,
because I feel like if you areon weed or any kind of drug,
that might let you engage incertain behaviors and distance
yourself from it, and withoutthat you're still going to
engage in the same behaviors,but now you might be all the

(01:08:43):
more kind of aware of them andthat can be like really scary
and hard to deal with.
I don't know if that's yoursituation, but I definitely know
lots of people who have donevarious drugs and they realize,
like as soon as they get sober,like oh my God, now there's so
much stuff that like if I wantto feel better.

(01:09:04):
I have to like address in mylife.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
That's right and that's like they've been pushing
it off and now they're havingto face it yeah, 100 you know
it's uh, take it from a gal thatreally went to rehab in an
extreme way.
But you know the the thing is Ifirst of all unpopular opinion.
Weed is a terrible drug.

(01:09:26):
I do not like this drug and itconcerns me how many sisters I
know that deal with theirproblems by just smoking weed
nonstop.
I think it kills your careerdrive and it's like this inch
inside of yourself is soprecious.
It's this part of you that isso beautiful and raw and I think

(01:09:49):
weed just really diminishesthat.
I mean it changes your brainover time.
But what I learned going torehab is that when you're trying
to escape from something withsubstances and then that
substance isn't there, you'vegot a hole inside of yourself.
You've got to fill it withsomething.
Um, you know, or you're goingto relapse.

(01:10:11):
So I don't know, it sounds likekelly, it's.
I mean, first of all, it takestime after you stop using a lot
for your brain to really clearand for you to have clarity.
You know, with my drinking anddrug problem it probably took me
a year, really two, to getreally back up to where I could

(01:10:32):
think clearly all the time.
But I mean you've got to,you've got to address, like what
caused you to do that in thefirst place.
I mean, for me it was verysimple.
I wanted to be a girl and thenI transitioned and I felt no
need to ever do drugs again.
But I don't know.
There's sounds like there'ssomething deeper there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
I don't know if mine really had anything to do with
my transition.
Because I just remember like Iwent to college and I got like
my first relationship and thatwas like a high for me because I
never felt like I had tocollege and I got like my first
relationship and that was like ahigh for me because I never
felt like I had like a guy thatI was actually attracted to,
like be interested in me andthen when he left, I kind of
just started doing it all thetime because that's what we did

(01:11:17):
together and I I don't know.
and then I just TikTok happenedand I just kept doing it and I
don't know, it's just, I don'tknow if it was ever really about
my transition, I think I don'tknow.
And then I just tick, tockhappened and I just kept doing
it and I don't know, it's just,I don't know if it was ever
really about my transition.
I think I just and I don't evenknow if it was really about
that relationship after a whileI think I just really liked
getting high, I just likedfeeling something and it's.
It's funny you say it was acareer killer, for a lot of

(01:11:39):
people are a motivation killer,cause lot of the time like I'm
like damn.
I feel like I made much bettercontent when I was.
I feel like I was funnier, Ifeel like I didn't give a fuck
as much.
I felt like I, I don't know.
Now I just feel like mycreative part of my brain is
kind of like dead really wowyeah it's not bad

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
sorry no, it's.
I feel like you are, I don'tknow.
I feel like you're in a periodright now where you're trying to
discover yourself, and I meanthe friend I want to be to use
to help you do that, because Icare about you.
So, however, we can do thatyeah yeah, I care about you guys

(01:12:22):
too.

Speaker 4 (01:12:23):
what do you do for fun?
Yeah, we can do that.
Yeah, care about you guys too.

Speaker 3 (01:12:24):
What do you do for fun?

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Yeah, I don't know I would get high before and I
don't know, for the last likefour months I really feel like
I've been doing any or having alot of fun.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
You gotta find them.

Speaker 3 (01:12:39):
Books, video games, cats.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Every time I try to get into video games I feel like
I can just never get into it.
I've tried like every type ofgame and I did kind of like life
is strange.
Zach got me to play like thatnew life is strange game and I
was like, wow, this is the firsttime I'm like actually having
fun playing a video game.
I don't know, I like music andmovies, but I mean there's only
so much.
I don't know.
I don't really feel like that'slike a real hobby, so I don't

(01:13:05):
know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
The other thing ketamine did is it completely
took away the enjoyment I feltfrom playing video games.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
I barely played that ever since Wow so.

Speaker 4 (01:13:17):
I have like a blocker on my computer.
I use cold turkey which lets me, like, block certain things.
My access and I have it set solike all programs that come out
of the steam folder are limitedto like an hour total of time
that I can spend on them, andthe maximum amount of time that

(01:13:40):
I can spend playing Hearthstoneis 30 minutes a day because this
is so embarrassing.
I like I've spent an insaneamount of time playing
Hearthstone, to the point where,like I look back on that time
and I'm like I could havelearned like three languages in

(01:14:00):
the time that I spent playingHethstone and I've, like done
nothing in this game and sovideo games have been like my
biggest vice.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Um, they were for a long time.

Speaker 4 (01:14:11):
Yeah, yeah but okay, brianna, you have, like this, uh
, very ambitious impulse in youand yeah, definitely I have that
too.
But I think what I realized isthat I was using video games to
kind of as a surrogate activityfor actual success and I could

(01:14:35):
like play video game and I couldwin in that video game and that
felt really good, um, but itwas kind of illusory and you
know, for me it was like a wayof masturbating that urge for
success and competition anddomination and, like you know,
succeeding.
But it was just it didn't getme anywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
And so I'm learning to like actually pursue real
sources of success that aren'twhatever I mean, this is why
we've got a big media hit comingup together and I I take a lot
of pride from getting youngerwomen and kind of opening up
doors for them.
You know, kelly, you weretalking about how you want to,

(01:15:14):
uh, have children.
I just gotta be real with youthe older you get as a trans
woman, the more this hurts,hurts, it kills me sometimes to
see moms dropping their kids offthe school.
They're turning around thecorner from me and I just I
can't do it.
It hurts and there's justthere's no filling that right.

(01:15:36):
So one of the things I reallytry to do is to help younger
women in their career.
So, like kelly, we did apodcast yesterday.
We had a really good time.
I was really proud to open thatdoor and kind of teach you the
media game there.
Taff, when we do that.
I, I, I really delight in doingthat.
Yes, guy, we did something fuckangel the other day.

(01:15:57):
Yeah that was so I don't know.
I guess if you've got thatambitious impulse in you.
Something I am extremely goodat is networking and
back-channeling.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
I know literally everyone and I'm happy to help
in any way I can as your friendyou know, I kind of want to get
into like tech and like, but Ijust feel really like weird,
like networking and kind of likeschmoozing in that sense.
And I had a conversation withone of my friends who, like

(01:16:31):
she's she's very successful inher career in tech and she's
like my age, she's a trans womanand she like just networked so
well to get to that position.
And she gave me the advice.
She said, like, like you shouldjust be really ambitious and
like, put yourself out there.
And I thought about it and Ithought, like you know, I don't

(01:16:52):
feel comfortable networking withlike tech stuff, but when it
comes to politics, like I thinkI have something real to offer
in that world and I feel verycomfortable talking to people
about politics and the idea of,like you know, going on this
reason, interview with me you or, like you know, any other media

(01:17:14):
engagements or just, like youknow, personal networking with
people that really resonateswith me and that feels to me
like I feel so much energy anddesire to do that, because it's
like networking that is actuallyin a direction that I want.
And so I think I just realizedthat like, oh, I thought that

(01:17:34):
like maybe I wanted to go in onedirection, maybe because, like
my father's a programmer andlike as a kid I always thought
that would be like my directionin life.
Um, but now I'm like, wait,actually, you know, when I'm
honest with myself about what Iwant, I actually am okay with
talking to people and it just ittook being you know real with

(01:17:54):
myself about that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think all of us have likespeaking of politics, taff.
I really think all of us have arole to play.
You know, like right now, evenas we were recording the show
tonight, washington Post put outan op-ed by their entire op-ed
board calling for a nationaldiscussion about trans women in

(01:18:17):
women's sports wow as we wererecording, Trump put out
something basically saying againhe's going to end all childhood
transition.
So we're living in a momentwhere and I don't want to be
messianic here, but there isgoing to be a very deep thirst
for moderate public figures onthe trans issue.

Speaker 4 (01:18:40):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
The comments from me on Piers Morgan the other day
were almost universally positive.
It was like I've never seenanyone say anything positive.
I've never seen a trans woman Icould relate to before on this.

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
Amazing People want to hear your opinions on these
things.
That is so gratifying.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
So I got Pierce to say on the air that he
unequivocally stands with transwomen and wants us to have
dignity and equality, just likeeveryone else, if we all
compromise on a few things,which is a huge one.
So, taff, I sit there and theway this is really getting meta
with career stuff, but there areso many people out there that

(01:19:27):
have a childlike need forattention and that is why they
do what they do in politics.
It's all about them, and it isstunning to me that people
accuse me of like beingself-involved or whatever,
because I think I have theopposite problem, that I have a
mission that I will think aboutand I will just entirely damage

(01:19:47):
myself like getting to thatmission as evidence for this
trans stuff right now.
Um, I think there is a callingright now to reshift the
conversation, and I think it'sone we can win, but I need
people like you to step up andto help me in that that public
work, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
Yeah, I think that makes no pressure.
Okay, of course.
Yeah, I just got to be at thecenter of the site, guys taking
this messianic role.
No yeah, no, I feel verysimilar.
Tav Tosh is the prophet.
I've come down from themountain.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
No, but it's true, though, tav.
Like it's so true, you have aflow to your dialogue and it's
so lovely, like I love listeningto you talk.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
I do too.
I love listening to you.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
Yeah, I'm like, oh, let me take tips.
And like it was so funny whenwe were talking, just like
before this, before this week'syou know pod we were planning
out and it was before you joinedand kelly and I kelly was like
we were just chat, we were justchatting and I'm like taft gave
me this eye-opening analogythat's gonna change my life on
this and it was just throwingthe object in the air and

(01:20:58):
catching it and I was like Icould like relay it perfectly
because you resonated so wellwith me.
I loved that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:07):
I was just like it takes one to know one and I'm
like I hope I can be more liketap it made me so good when you
were like you know you, I feltlike you really got it and I
felt like I was speaking and Ifelt just understood by you in
that moment.
Um, so I felt so good aboutthat.

(01:21:28):
And that is something anexperience that I've had over
and over talking to you threewhere, like I've tried so many
times to talk to like otherpeople into the trans community
about things and just been likeshut down over and over and I
don't get that with you guys.
We're like you know even if wedisagree on something, there's
like a desire to listen and, youknow, to lay it all out there,

(01:21:52):
and that has been so valuable injust making me feel less crazy
and like maybe I really do havesomething valuable to share with
the world, of course you do.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
You totally do, we totally do, we all do.
Yeah, and you do too, kelly.
Yes, yes, kelly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
Yes, you too yes you smile, you have something to
value.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
Yeah, we all do, for sure yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:19):
Kelly, I'm thinking about just jumping on a plane
tomorrow and flying to a randomcity.
You should do something fun too.

Speaker 2 (01:22:27):
I agree, yeah, I have all the free time in the world,
so I'll go to wherever city youwant me to.
It's not like I have plans.

Speaker 3 (01:22:37):
We really do need to all hang out, though, and do an
in-real-life session.
I just feel like it would be ahit yeah, come to the casa de
woo, it's amazing I'd love to atrip northeast, I can do that
maybe not right now.

Speaker 1 (01:22:55):
It's a little cold, a little miserable true, yeah, it
is winter y'all want to wrapthis up.
I don't think we'll talk aboutjosh today yeah, we didn't even
talk about her.

Speaker 4 (01:23:07):
Was there anything?
But um, yeah, I mean ourconversation was so much more
natural and real than it was,even if it got a little solemn.

Speaker 1 (01:23:14):
But yeah, sometimes it's like that I think trans
girls are gonna listen to thisand they're going to just cry
the whole time.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
Yeah, I guess so.
Yeah, it is true, though I dolove the energy of just being so
vulnerable here.
Like I feel that comfortbecause I don't feel like I'm
being judged with what I shareor that I have to follow an
ideological script which, likethat has been.
That was predominantly myexperience for, like when I

(01:23:44):
first transitioned and I waslike I'm entering this new
identity and I was like so happyfiguring myself out, but I
found myself afraid to like saythe wrong thing, and I don't
feel that way with you all.

Speaker 4 (01:23:58):
And.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
I, yeah, I want to ride that out and just like
harness that energy and, I don'tknow, be the best version of
myself here with all of you all,and I'm just so excited.

Speaker 1 (01:24:10):
I mean Sky.
Let's be honest, A lot of transTwitter would completely shut
you down for being Christian andhaving some conservative
tendencies, that's just like itis, unless you're the most
fringe leftist, you don't have aseat at the table, which is the
whole problem.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
Oh, yeah, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Like I mean, when you startgoing down into it and I start
talking about auto sexuality orany of those other things, it's
like, yeah, I'm going to get somuch hate.
Like I mean, I'm ready for it,though I'd rather go to the

(01:24:45):
direction Taff said and behonest and truthful and help,
really help people figure outthemselves, regardless of how
that looks, and it's just like Ihave my beliefs and I'm not
afraid of anymore.
Plus, I'm getting older andlike I thought it was kind of
like no, not gonna lie, tap,when you were talking about like
I think you mentioned wrinklesand I'm like what?
What wrinkles?
Like I can't see anything.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
you look, yes, come on.
Yeah, no, I don't know why areyou using?

Speaker 4 (01:25:03):
retinol.
I've mastered the lighting care, I think so.
Um, I just use retinol for,like, good skin care, I mean.
So retinol can promote, like uh, collagen production and, you
know, skin renewal.
It's really nice for makingyour skin just look plumper and,
you know, smoother.

(01:25:24):
It can reduce fine lines andwrinkles as well.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
So I do recommend it.
I'll tell you about the 40 yearold version of that sometime
you've got the real, the realhardcore stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:25:36):
Yeah, oh, I respect that.
I'll have to get tips from you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
Okay, we're all heading in that direction.
Yeah, okay, you know what my myinjectionist?

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
she's 10 years older than me and she looks gorgeous,
so that's a good sign yeah, well, my goal is that I don't care
too much.
That's my goal.
I don't care if I look like awrinkly grandma I just want to
have.
I want to have people to loveand that love me, and that's,
that's enough for me.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
Okay, scott, that's so sweet, it's so naive.
I tuned out all this stuff forway too long in my career and
it's the reason there are allthese terrible pictures of me,
cause I was just like, look, Ilook fine enough to pass and I
would just put on foundation,and I didn't stress this stuff
and I had so much less powerback then.

(01:26:29):
So it's I.
If you want a media career, Idisagree.
You got to take this stuffseriously.

Speaker 3 (01:26:35):
Well, you got to remember, I'm not in it for
money, I'm in it for the mission.

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
The money comes from doing good work.
The money comes from doing goodwork, I mean no one pays you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
Oh, what was that I said?
So you're saying we need ffs?

Speaker 3 (01:26:50):
no, shut up it should be you it's fair for brie
because brie's in the media, sothe looks are directly related
to, like, the success ofexposure.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
To some extent, that's what you're getting at
it's not just that my career isfundraising and the ability to
network with powerful peoplehelps.
If you don't look wrinkly, Imean, it's just true.

Speaker 3 (01:27:17):
So I don't know like yeah, yeah I mean there's
careers in the spotlight for areason and they're like there's
a reason.
When you look at the tv anchorsand you know the women are all
like polished and everythingit's for a reason.
It's.

Speaker 4 (01:27:31):
It's exactly what you just described yes yeah yeah,
and unfortunately it's kind oflike sexism too like you know,
men can get away with lookinglike old and gross, but like
unfortunately with women likethere's just an expectation
which sucks, but like the restmakes them hotter.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
You know, like I mean I hate to say it, but I just I
tell this fact all the time.
It's like I feel like you'rejust getting hotter as you get
older and I'm just getting moreugly, and that's just how it is
for women this is why I thinkTERFs are so miserable.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
I genuinely think this, because it is so hard
being a woman.
The older you get becausethere's a lot of bullshit, right
, I mean, especially if you canhave children, like your body
starts breaking down in somescary ways.
So I don't know, I think likeall that frustration of
restructural sexism just ends upbursting out and we end up

(01:28:25):
being the targets.

Speaker 3 (01:28:27):
I used to think that, but I honestly think there's a
lot of people coming to the turfposition from you know I don't
want to say like, not, not, notout of like insecurities, more
out of the statement of likethey're worried about the
infringement.
I mean, that's the whole thingabout the political issue of
donald trump getting elected ontrans, like wokeism, like that's

(01:28:49):
bringing in people that wouldotherwise be moderate and not
really care.
See like a man win in women'ssports and then become like I
don't know.
I want to say turf, but likethey're going to move in that
direction because they're goingto see the legitimacy of
biological sex over you know,extending courtesy and grace
towards people that actuallypass or like put an effort for
the transition.
And so it's like I used to.

(01:29:10):
I used to think a lot more likethat brie until recently, and
it's been like.

Speaker 1 (01:29:16):
That's why I'm like we gotta like get out there well
, I I just I delineate thenormal people that have
questions about this stuff, thatare fine with us living our
lives, and the gender criticalnut jobs.
The definition of yeah Kellyyou know what I'm talking about
these ultras like you could post.
You posted this the other day.
It was a brilliant thing.

(01:29:36):
You said it was like transwomen breathes, like gender
critical person.
Do you understand?
That's a biological male breath.
That's the kind of people I'mtalking about.

Speaker 3 (01:29:47):
It's not that was hilarious, obsessed with us like
this I have.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
The comments were like well, they're right.
I'm like, of course, of course,that's what you people would
fucking say.

Speaker 3 (01:29:57):
They're such freaks oh let them say it though, like
I mean, my view is like well, Idon't need to say my view, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
Yeah, Sky, actually you have how many Twitter
followers?
How many Twitter followers doyou have?

Speaker 3 (01:30:11):
Under a thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
Okay, I think we have slightly different experiences.
You're blessed, you're blessed.

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
You don't want them.

Speaker 4 (01:30:19):
You don't know, you don't know yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
I mean you don't know , you don't?
Yeah, I mean the curse.
Yeah, it's true.
No, I, I don't really.
It's like it's out ofobligation.
It's the fact that I'm like Igotta be online to help, like,
trans people have a better image, but I don't even know how
effective it is.
I'd rather just leave it up tobrie and then let people watch
it on video platforms, becauseit's like that's where I think
actual nuance and discussionhappens.
Otherwise, like x is just forpeople that want to vent.

Speaker 4 (01:30:46):
That's how it feels, like I'll be honest, I want more
x followers and I'm on that, onthat grind set.
I'll retweet you, thank you,thank you yeah all right.

Speaker 3 (01:31:03):
so, and now we're excited to welcome our special
guests to the show, richardHanania.
Richard is the author ofseveral thought-provoking books,
including Public Choice Theoryand the Illusion of Grand
Strategy and the Origins of Woke.
He's also known for his work onelite human capital, or what
we'll call EHC, which soundsfancy, but let's be real,

(01:31:26):
richard's probably just figuringout how to make us all feel bad
for not reading enough.
And, of course, he's a prolificposter on X, stirring the pot
daily with his takes on politics, culture and everything in
between.
Richard, welcome to DollCast.

Speaker 5 (01:31:43):
Thank you.
I am honored to be with suchbeautiful and distinguished
company.
I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:31:49):
Yes we're so happy to have you.
We're excited to have you here.
So we got into the shit.

Speaker 1 (01:31:55):
We really got into the shit when I appeared on your
show.
It was crazy how angry peoplegot at this.
And then I put out a sarcastictweet calling you my bestie.
Like I'm looking at my blue skytoday.
It's just like Brianna ishanging out with her bestie

(01:32:16):
Richard.
Like it's insane.

Speaker 5 (01:32:19):
Yeah, I mean I got less of it because I think
conservatives are just like theydon't have this kind of culture
.
I mean they have weird culturalstuff, but not like you
shouldn't talk to this person.
I just feel like becausethey've been excluded for so
long, they're just happy anyonewould talk to them.
So there's not this idea.
Oh, you shouldn't talk to thisperson.
So I don't think I got it ashard as you did, but yeah, there

(01:32:40):
was.
I mean I don't know, I don't,do you pay attention to the
mentions, like I very rarely do,yeah, I do.
How do you have time foranything else?
I mean, it's just.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
So I so was admitting it, I don't run a lot of my
social media, so like don't tellanyone.

Speaker 4 (01:32:57):
we'll edit that out.
Yeah, no, but I okay.
I've seen some of the backlashtoo in regards to you, hanania,
where I will I follow theright-wing posters, the people
who like talk about raw milk andwhatnot, and they'll be like,
oh, hanania, talking to atranssexual, what is this?
This is disgusting.
Yeah, exactly, I mean peopleget like mad, but it's I mean

(01:33:20):
speaking of elite human capital,I think one of the elements
that you've honed in on againand again is like openness, or
ability to be like a highdecoupler, and, I think, ability
to like engage with ideas inthe raw, regardless of like who
they're coming from, key elementof elite human capital, I think
.

Speaker 5 (01:33:40):
Yeah, that's completely right and I've always
had these sort of rightoidinstincts and I think that they
and that's why I'm like you know, but I also have sort of an
intellectual life, and I thinkwhen you have these instincts
you don't have an intellectuallife at all, like a lot of an
intellectual life, and I thinkwhen you have these instincts
you don't have an intellectuallife at all, like a lot of these
raw milk and anti-vaxxers andsuch are.
It's just, you know, you're justsort of disgusted by everything

(01:34:01):
and angry all the time.
I mean, I have spent a lot ofof my Twitter time on Twitter
trolling these people.
It's becoming a thing where,like you, can never keep doing
the same thing forever because,like you know, I talked to
transsexuals.
That would have been shocking.
You know, maybe a year, at thispoint, I mean, no one's gonna

(01:34:23):
care, I mean we have this one.

Speaker 4 (01:34:25):
You can be fucking transsexual I know and then
you'd be doing exactly whateveryone else is doing just
behind closed doors.
So yeah, perfect.

Speaker 5 (01:34:37):
Yeah, I think I'm a trendsetter.
I was into this racism and allthis other stuff way before any
of these other people were,exactly, and I've turned away
from it before them.
So, yeah, they're behind.
I mean their talking points,their instincts, their
aesthetics.
They're where I was five or 10years ago and, yeah, some of
them will probably never catchup because there is, I believe,

(01:34:58):
a rightoid type.
I believe there is a generalfactor that makes you sort of
close-minded and racist andconspiratorial and homophobic
and religious and you canseparate these things.
There's people who are racistand not religious and the
opposite.
But most people, I mean, formost people they're like they're
one of those things you canpredict they're going to be

(01:35:19):
those other things.
And so, yeah, I mean therightoid.
I mean what I'm working on nowand what I'm thinking a lot
about now is like how redeemableare these people?
Like, how bad is the left?
And like you, you know, isthere a way you can channel,
like, all this energy out thereinto something productive?

Speaker 3 (01:35:37):
well, is there such a thing as like having too open a
mind?
Like this is kind of where Ifeel like things sort of went
with the left.
I mean progressivism, for, atleast from my viewpoint as, like
you know, in the transcommunity is like it feels like
it's gone off the rails, like wetook that concept of gender
identity and took it all the wayand look where that got us.
Like I have to wonder, doeselite human capital kind of burn

(01:36:00):
itself out and sort of likechannel into some of more of a
restraint?
Like there needs to be a littlebit more balance to this.
I mean, what's your take onthat?
I mean, you're the expert here.

Speaker 5 (01:36:10):
So I'm this will be announced by the time.
It's already been sort ofannounced, but it's going to be
announced more officially by thetime this comes out, probably
that I'm writing a book on elite, human capital.
So these are all the questionsI'm trying to work out.
Right.
And so there I'm going to have.
Like most chapters are going tomake it sound like elite human
capital is just good and lowhuman capital is bad, but I'm

(01:36:32):
going to force myself to write achapter steelmanning the case
for low human capital.
And elite human capital makesmistakes in institutions.
I think universities are agreat example of this.
So one of the things that's good, elite human capital in a way,
is like always sort of doingthings that are contrary to
human nature.
So human nature is just veryprimitive.
Human nature is very tribal.

(01:36:53):
It like gathers around peoplewho are powerful and strong men
and leaders.
I mean, this is like the Trumpcult and people, just you know,
start worshiping and followingthe leader.
And elite human capital oftenis liberal because it goes
against that.
At the same time, like you canOD on that, like you can OD on
anything else, you could justhave a position where, like you

(01:37:13):
could have the universities,where, like, the students come
in and yell at the professorsand then they, you know, they
can't, you know they demand thatthey take time off or they
demand that they not be graded.
These people who are like sortof below, like you need a kind
of sort of hierarchy.
You need a way for institutionsjust to function and you become
rule obsessed and you becomelike you know if one person is

(01:37:33):
scared of covid, you all have tomask forever.
If one person's feelings arehurt, you have to shut down
speech.
And it's like the question islike at the macro level, like
we're looking at politics andwe're thinking of these people
called conservatives and peoplecalled liberals and there's like
within them there is like anelite human capital tendency and
there is low human capitaltendency.
These are coalitions of peopleacross the political spectrum.

(01:37:54):
I guess I should define.

Speaker 1 (01:37:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I mean gosh, I guess I meanI have a real like, is it?
How can you tell if you'reelite human capital, is it?

Speaker 2 (01:38:03):
like, if you have to ask are you?

Speaker 5 (01:38:07):
Under affirming care, you I mean you're beyond, so
take for instance, setting updoll cast.

Speaker 1 (01:38:14):
I mean, I used to think like I was just a normal
person, just because I've gotlike a wide array of skills and
I think everyone like setting upthe show with me here can go
like, oh, we need a motiongraphics done, brianna can do
that.
Oh, we need to get this gueston.
Oh, brianna can do that.
Oh, we've got this technicalproblem, brianna can do that.

(01:38:37):
Oh, we've got this technicalproblem, brianna can do that.
And I feel like I'm actuallyreally, really good at picking
up a lot of different skillsthat, yeah, I've used throughout
my career.
And then, like the other sideof that, like you know, you talk
about rule breaking being anaspect I truly like.
Do not care if people like Ithink about doing the right
thing a lot, but I have a richhistory of going against the
grain at real personal cost.
In a way, that's been likereally important moments, and I

(01:39:00):
think you can see me doing thatright now with the trans
community.
So do I count or do I not count?

Speaker 5 (01:39:07):
So the way I characterize it.
So when I talk about thepathologies of universities,
it's an issue of like a tendencyamong elite human capital, but
not every elite human capitalturns into like a nerd and a
real follower.
It's a combination ofintelligence and idealism, right
being interested in politics,being interested in sort of

(01:39:30):
truth.
If you just look at these, likeyou look at these, you know you
look at a lot of the right winginfluencers and they're like
into ideas but not really likeyou can't discourse that one.

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
It's not that you can make a point.

Speaker 5 (01:39:42):
it's like you know, ump is tough and this person is
tough and this person is nottough, and this person is gay
and this person is Jewish.
Right, this is like this islike, and there's entire
intellectual structures built onjust like these silly instincts
, but they're not reallyengaging with ideas in any way,
and so there is like a kind ofidealism there, but it's stupid.

(01:40:04):
And then you have like smartswithout the idealism, that would
be just like somebody who justwants to work in IT and like
make money.
I study with IT.
I use the example of the cardealership because the car
dealers are like the most commontype of millionaire in America
and they're like overwhelminglylike a Republican interest group
, and I just think of them aslike maybe smart people, maybe

(01:40:25):
to be the biggest car dealer inMacon, georgia or something,
requires a lot of intelligence.
But I wouldn't call that elitehuman capital either.
It's a very sort ofinstrumental, uh, intelligence,
um, and so, brianna, I meanthat's like you know, I don't
want to think about likeeveryone's, like who's this
person leading?
Okay, it's more of it's aspectrum.
But, brianna, you're smart,you're your idea I don't know if

(01:40:45):
I'm smart.

Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
I make a lot of bad decisions.

Speaker 5 (01:40:49):
You make you might make bad decisions, but they but
you're smart.
You can be smart and sort offoolish at the same time.

Speaker 3 (01:40:55):
I feel like there's a key element of influence when
it comes to elite human capital.
Like you have to have a certainamount of influence.
Is that a definingcharacteristic or am I like
misreading on like the biggestelement?

Speaker 5 (01:41:06):
They usually do have influence because you know the
smartest and most idealisticpeople usually have the biggest
influence in society.
But like if you're an artistwho just wants to go live in the
desert and, you know, dedicateyour life to some grand project
and nobody ever hears from youand you have no influence, I
would still count that as elitehuman capital.
That's just not the majority ofthem.

Speaker 1 (01:41:25):
So I want to get into some spicier topics, richard.
So I want to ask you seem likeyou have a real propensity for
women with large body parts andI'm trying to ask you do you
feel like you got enough milk asa child?
What do you think is is like?

(01:41:47):
What drives this?

Speaker 4 (01:41:49):
what is?

Speaker 5 (01:41:50):
driving this Because you got famous for making Sidney
Sweeney kind of blow up onTwitter, Like that's it's sort
of a thing where there is like aNASA's versus boobs debate and
I'm like I participate in thatdebate.
I reject it, wait did you know?

Speaker 4 (01:42:09):
there's like surveys showing that, like, richer men
prefer smaller breasts.
Like the aristocratic elegance,you can go layers deep on this
I'm sure you already know.

Speaker 5 (01:42:19):
I'll tell you I have the taste of a poor man.
This is one way.
I am not only human, you havebeautiful eyelashes.

Speaker 1 (01:42:27):
Thank you, yes.

Speaker 4 (01:42:28):
Like a feminine figure.

Speaker 5 (01:42:32):
Well, that was very kind of you.
Yes, and so.

Speaker 4 (01:42:36):
He was stunned, briefly.

Speaker 5 (01:42:38):
I do now.
Yes, stunned, I'm just takingit in just from the source.
I mean, it's just such an honor, yeah.
So I think I'm saying whateveryone's thinking basically.
I think most men, when they'relooking at someone like
Sidneyney sweeney, um, they'rethinking basically the things
that I'm saying well, not evenreally saying, but sort of
communicating, and I don't thinkthe breasts is like I am not

(01:43:00):
that I'm against breasts, butI'm not.
Uh, it's not not, I don't favorit over other body parts more
than anyone else I believe so.

Speaker 1 (01:43:08):
So which is your favorite, though we're trying to
get you on the record, Iprobably.

Speaker 5 (01:43:12):
I probably like the s better.
I'll be honest, but it'sthere's not an audience for it
oh, we're all white.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
That's so cruel, richard.
No, I can't believe if I wastrying to appeal to black
twitter.

Speaker 5 (01:43:24):
Maybe that's, maybe that's my next turn, but I've
never had a black.

Speaker 1 (01:43:26):
This is you're not going to get engaged.
This is why you're supremacist,and it's not, it's too crude
and it crude.

Speaker 5 (01:43:32):
You know what?
I do have to sort of take intoaccount that I have sort of an
elite human capital audience andthey sort of cringe a little
bit at the boob stuff.
If I did ask, I couldn't beexcited in the New York Times
anymore.
That's the cancellation.
That's just the, you're gone.
So, yes, why I focus on thebreasts rather than the other
stuff?

(01:43:52):
That's just the.
You know, you're, you're,you're gone.
So, yes, that, why I focus onthe breasts rather than the
other stuff.
I mean, that's a fascinatingquestion.
There's there's there's likecomplex, like strategic reasons
that are based in sort of classand audience and race and all
these other considerations.

Speaker 4 (01:44:04):
Well, I think it's very vitalistic.
It's like Nietzschean in a way,like you're embracing this like
natural, yeah, these nerds aresmall like no, there's no
evolutionary reason for thatyou're just trying to be.

Speaker 5 (01:44:16):
You're just trying to be sophisticated you're just
trying to pretend, like popeye'schicken doesn't taste good, and
you're just lying it tastesgood.

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):
I'm sorry so do you spend your time on tiktok?
Like you said, you got reallyfamous a while back for posting
a bunch of really really coolsorority videos, like Sorority
Rush and these amazing danceroutines.
And I'm looking at this, I'mlooking like those girls, their
energy is just on point, thevibes are immaculate and you

(01:44:45):
know like it's filling all theconservative men out there with
some really aggressivecontradictions.
So I wanted to ask you do youjust like log into TikTok and
type sorority dance all?

Speaker 5 (01:44:58):
day.
Yeah, at this point.
Yeah, but how?

Speaker 3 (01:44:59):
do you find it?
Yeah, where do they come from?

Speaker 5 (01:45:04):
It's the algorithm.
I don't type.
I don't really.
I usually don't search foranything.
Sometimes I'll search forsomething that I know will be
triggering, like black womansays why you?
shouldn't vote for Trump orsomething like that Just
something that I know will getpeople upset on Twitter.
But now the algorithm sort ofknows what I like.
It's a very efficient means ofsearch, because maybe I will
spend every two days I'll spendliterally 15 minutes on it and

(01:45:28):
just grab some stuff off there.
Grab some stuff off there andyeah, I mean it's people.
You know people respond to it.
I mean some of it's just likethere are like different kind of
genres of this stuff.
Right, there's just sort ofgirls dancing.
I mean I started out just likethere was some girl I thought
was cute, I just watched herdance and then you know it takes

(01:45:51):
you down the rabbit hole.

Speaker 4 (01:45:52):
I guess it's very specific, it goes with your eyes
.

Speaker 5 (01:45:55):
China's very sophisticated.
Those are your eyes are lookingat for a while, and so yeah,
you'll get.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
You'll get.
If you're more elite humancapital, you'd be able to resist
man, I'm telling you you'd beable to, I should believe, human
capital.

Speaker 5 (01:46:03):
You don't have to.

Speaker 4 (01:46:04):
How do you, how would you get elon bucks?
Then he's got a post, that'strue, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:46:10):
So we had a team meeting and this is I'm going to
embarrass Sky right now, butwe're trying to get examples of
your thirst traps and Sky isjust complaining.
She's like why do I have tokeep scrolling back so far?
It's because he's been swapping.

Speaker 3 (01:46:24):
Yeah, come on.

Speaker 5 (01:46:28):
Yeah, I have not been doing a lot of thirst traps
lately.
I got sort of.
The election is a sort ofdepressing time and I've
actually not been on Twitter asmuch because, like people are at
their stupidest.
It's like the stupid peoplelike who often pay attention to
politics.
They wouldn't pay attention toa midterm or like an off year or
something.
They are so into it and theyall have opinions and they're

(01:46:48):
talking so much and they're just, they're just so dumb and this
is like the most depressing timeto pay attention to politics.
It was fun because of the leadup to the election, but then,
like after we had the result,it's just like the stupid people
are still.
They're like at the after partyand they're like really drunk.
They're just like moreunbearable than they were before
we've had the election therewas a reason for being here, so
I haven't been on twitter a lot.

(01:47:09):
Um and uh, yeah, I mean, I'mtrying to.
You know I want I'm trying to.
You know I want to.
I'm trying to build my audience, but I also want a smart
audience, and so I spent a lotof time on the essays and but
they're both, they feed intoeach other because, like even
the thirst traps, there was agirl who messaged me who's very
smart and she's like you know I,you know I don't like all the
stuff you post about girls, butlike that's the way I found you

(01:47:31):
right and I'm like okay, welleven if you get, like you know,
900 000 people who look at youand they're all you know, brain
damaged.
You know, if you get five or tenpercent who are smart, you're
still turning over and you'regetting a high quality audience.
The people who are not highquality often don't end up
following me, for they becomeconfused and scratch themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:47:49):
But I I think it's interesting.
Like, look, I'm not.
I mean I I enjoy watching likegirls dancing, that's cool, but
like it's interesting.
Like, look, I'm not.
I mean I enjoy watching likegirls dancing, that's cool, but
like it's not, I have adifferent reaction to it.
I find it really interesting tolook at the, because I'm not in
those spaces with conservativemen where I hear these
conversations about how theyfeel about this stuff.

(01:48:09):
Feel about this stuff.
I just in a billion years wouldnever think a thought like how
dare my daughter go dance in aTikTok video?
That's just crazy to me.
But there are a lot ofconservatives out there that
think that way.
So I actually find scrollingyour mentions on this to help me
understand the other half ofthe country, if that makes sense

(01:48:31):
.

Speaker 5 (01:48:31):
You know, I've never seen so people.
People say I would be ashamedof my daughter.
See, I've never.
I check, I must check mymentions less than you because
I've never seen that reaction,but that's.

Speaker 1 (01:48:39):
Oh my God, it's there , it's there.

Speaker 4 (01:48:42):
I mean that was my strategy too Just like post sexy
photos online and eventuallypeople like find my essays where
I'm talking about democracy,and then they stick around and I
just like talk to them all day.

Speaker 5 (01:48:55):
So which one are you?
Are you t?
Which one is you with t?
Is that my deal with?

Speaker 4 (01:48:59):
yeah, that's me, yeah , that's you.

Speaker 5 (01:49:01):
Well, I don't know about your essays taff, you
should send me.
You should send me them.

Speaker 4 (01:49:04):
I should, yes, you should, y'all should be
officially following back let'sgo, let's go, the Hanania follow
there.

Speaker 1 (01:49:11):
We go now ta a lead human capital it's very exciting
.

Speaker 4 (01:49:16):
You've just jumped up .

Speaker 1 (01:49:18):
It's very exciting.
So I want to ask you a reallyhard question Do you know the
person in project, like you werea co-author on project 2025.
Do you know the person thatwrote that they are going to end
transgender ideology?
And could you ask them if we'regoing to be put in camps?
Because that would be reallyhelpful for me to plan for years

(01:49:45):
.

Speaker 5 (01:49:49):
You could probably go down the list and you could
probably just find the personwho seems most interested in
trans issues and you couldprobably guess they probably
wrote it.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
What's in there?
I haven't actually looked attrans and gender ideology like
all that kind of stuff Of which,like we agree with a lot of
that on the show, but I thinkall of us would prefer not to.
You know, like we don't wantthe government going.
Like there is a real concernout there with the real ID
system which does require agender marker on there.

(01:50:17):
That you know the Republicansare going to make a political
project of forcing all of us toput them on our driver's
licenses.
So, like, do you know thesepeople?
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?

Speaker 5 (01:50:29):
I am.
I don't have strongrelationship relationship with
the social cons.
I have more relationships withthe people who are just sort of
disgusted by transgenderism forsecular reasons.
I think that maybe moreinstinctual reasons, maybe
that's a better word.
Yeah, I mean, it's gettingserious at the state level.

(01:50:54):
I mean they are banning I meanall forms of gender.
I think it's probably not crazythat they could go after in
some states they could go aftereven adult care, although we're
a little bit far away from that.
Yeah, I mean this issue didbreak a lot of conservatives'
brains.
I mean, whenever I do somethinglike, whenever I something,
it's like you get you know, it'spredictable how people respond

(01:51:15):
to different points you make.
Whenever I make a point aboutconservatives being stupid,
conservatives beingconspiratorial, the number one,
most common response these arethe people who don't know what a
woman is Like.
That's all they think.
That is the own and you cannever like.
They feel no need to engage inself-reflection, like liberals
believe that a man can givebirth.
You know a man can give birthand a woman can become a man.

(01:51:37):
Therefore, you know, like weare just the same people and
like all we need to do is likeyou know, once, once that
cleared up the trans issue, thenmaybe we can, you know, talk
about something else.
And you know the transactivists are, to a large extent
, I.
You know they're like, I don'thave like that big of a reaction
like, oh, you guys can't, youknow, you want to define women

(01:51:57):
in a different, in a differentway.
I mean, I guess I do have areaction, because you do need a
word for like biological women,right, just say cis women is
like it's pretty big it's notlike I go through life and like
people.
When I say woman, like peopleget upset, right, it's not a big
thing, that's on your you know,that's that's you know, going
on, like attacking you on adaily basis.

(01:52:19):
I think it's just like the sign, it's just like the one thing
where, like the average man,like the guy you know, the Joe
Rogan listener is just likethese people are insane.
And if it was just more like,okay, like you know.
You know we talked about this,brianna, when you were on the
podcast.
We talked about like there's ayou know, there's a case rooted
in biology.
You can say the fact that youcan have a man in a woman's body

(01:52:39):
and vice versa implies there'sdifferences between men and
women, that men and women exist.
So you know, if thetranssexuals took the
transsexual movement or whatever, took that sort of more sane
approach, I think people wouldunderstand it.
I don't think people would careall that much.

Speaker 1 (01:52:55):
Richard, we're trying so hard I mean I did Pierce
Morgan, it came out yesterday totry to push it around on this.
I've got Washington Post piececoming out on this.
You know trigonometry.
I have taken on so much hatefrom my own side trying to steer
it back to sanity.

(01:53:15):
So, I agree with you, but it'salso true.
I mean, kelly, you deal withthese people too.
Gender criticals are justbigots, like, and you know I was
thinking about this today.
I was thinking about some ofthe.
I'm thinking of a very specificperson in the gender critical
movement that I got to know alot during Gamer Geek and she

(01:53:37):
was so extreme that 2010 erafeminists kicked her out of our
movement, like because she wasso crazy and you could not work
with her, and she's one of thelead gender critical people now.
She just hates men.
That's 100% what it's about forher, and I guess something I
would love to warn conservativesabout is be really careful

(01:54:02):
about giving these people thathave made their identity about
destroying trans people too muchpower, because it's ultimately
about hating men, and these areliterally the same people in the
Me Too movement that wanted todestroy people's careers without
investigating any of theallegations.
They're coming after y'all next, and it will be porn next, and

(01:54:24):
it will be like it's ultimatelythis ideology that sees all men
as sexual predators that need tobe, like, marginalized.
So I don't know, know, I'mreally worried about that yeah,
I mean I have noticed like these.

Speaker 5 (01:54:39):
You know it's in the united states, I guess this is a
bigger thing in britain.

Speaker 1 (01:54:42):
These like turfs that's not really much of a
thing in the us.

Speaker 5 (01:54:45):
Apparently they're everywhere and they tell
everyone what to do in the ukand that's why the trans
movement has not made as manyadvances, but it's at the
expense of having these lunaticfeminists everywhere and there's
a yeah.
I mean I noticed on Twitter,like the ones who are like a lot
of these, like gender critical,who are the biggest, like you
know, sort of hysterics aboutthe trans issue, are also like
the people who talk about likeage gaps and are just like so

(01:55:07):
offended.
I saw this one woman.
She's Canadian or somethingno-transcript.

Speaker 3 (01:55:42):
Second, that, like I go out in normal society or
whatever you know, just livingmy life.
It's so rare that I would everencounter someone that's that
extreme or like really pushinglike this biological rigidity
that like everything needs to bebased around, if anything.
I feel like there's still a lotof like public sentiment here,
but I do worry that it's gainedtraction in the Republican party

(01:56:03):
that let Trump, like theRepublicans, really weaponize
this.
I feel like it like a lot ofthe I don't want to say it's
like manufactured hate, but it'ssort of like it's a lot of
scapegoating that I've seen Likea lot of just like this is what
we want you to see for.
Like trans people.
Like there was an ad that Trumpran that was just all about like

(01:56:24):
I can't do it justice, but itjust it was literally just
harping on the trans issue andit did so well and it was like
they made an issue out of.
You know they took the, theytook they, they exposed a
weakness, I'd say in the liberalside, in the progressive
movement that you know Kamala isnot willing to take aggressive
stances against the transmovement and where it's gone,

(01:56:47):
and so they're exploiting thatand they're taking full
advantage of that and they just,you know, flash up, let's say,
a picture of leah thomas and belike this is what you know
progressives want, or somethinglike that, when it's not, it's
not an accurate depiction, butthey can prey on the fear and
then trump gets an office, andso it's like you know how, what?
What is the direction here like?
How do we recover from this?

Speaker 5 (01:57:09):
yeah, I mean it wasn't just one ad.
I mean this was a comment, thiswas a ad that they I mean this
was a theme the trans women insports.
It was a theme that they reallyreally kept hammering and like
look, I think you have to sortof I know you, I know you women
know that.
You are sort of you're aminority, you're historically.

Speaker 1 (01:57:28):
Yeah, that's what makes us hot, I think been
treated well.

Speaker 5 (01:57:36):
That's what makes us hot, I think variation, of
course, throughout history, youknow gay people, you know much
less.
Uh, trans people have not been,uh, have not been treated well
and I think that there's just,like you know, you have to sort
of find a way.
You have to like understandthat like it works.
Like you know you could gorationally to people and say,
like you know, women, transwomen in sports, like high
schools, how many, how often isthat?
You know you could gorationally to people and say,
like you know, women, transwomen in sports, like high
schools, how many, how often isthat?

(01:57:57):
You know how common is thatthey're winning medals and so
forth?
Since when do you care aboutwomen swimming?
Like no one really knows anyname of any female swimmer
except Leah Thomas.
I mean, it's sort of funny.
So, like you know, whatevervote on the economy or war and
peace or things like that, butyou have to sort of take into
account human nature, thatpeople already are primed to
scapegoat people who aresexually nonconforming, right,

(01:58:19):
and so that's why the transmovement needs to sort of and
the LGBT movement and liberalsin general, they need to take
that into account and not seemlike they're insane, because
America, it's not impossiblethat you can have a society that
has gay or trans acceptance.
I mean I think they managed todo it in Northern Europe.

(01:58:39):
I mean it's you know societiesget there.
I mean we're on the right,we're on the right path.
I mean this is sort of the youknow, sort of the story of human
progress, expanding circle ofempathy and all that.
You just, but you just have tojust be very cognizant that,
like you are, you know it's,it's a you know, like they're a
spark.
Can really stuff go up like Ithought you know they may be?

(01:59:02):
I think I thought, and a lot ofpeople thought, like gay
marriage and all that otherstuff was like settled, but the
stuff, anti-gay stuff you see ontwitter, um, that you see, um,
you know, in the last, likesince they had free speech, it
was always blatant, it's alwaysthere.
When I was a kid, even when Iwas in college, people would be
like, oh, some people say thatit was becoming uncool to call
someone gay if they were lame orsomething, just gay to say lame

(01:59:24):
.
So when I was a kid, when I was15 or something, that was normal
.
When I got 20 in college thisis the early 2000s people were
like.
People like, oh, you shouldn'tuse gay to just means you know
somebody's stupid or lame.
So I thought, okay, this isgonna go in like 10 years,
nobody's gonna use gay to saystupid or lame, and like it's
just everywhere now.

Speaker 1 (01:59:40):
Now you go our word has come back, richard, it's
insane.

Speaker 5 (01:59:44):
Yeah, yes, I mean we've cycled back to that.
It is just like it's so hard tosort of get there and, like you
know, people who people who arewho care about gay rights, who
care about trans rights, reallyneed to like understand that,
like you don't have the, youdon't have the luxury of going
insane.
And like having Leah Thomas.

(02:00:05):
You don't have that luxury oflike letting me, letting these,
you know this more exuberant,this more kind of extreme form
of your ideology take over,because society won't put up
with it.

Speaker 4 (02:00:16):
Well, I want to ask you about that I want to ask if
you see a parallel between thekind of trans women stuff and I
really think that there's a kindof religious fervor on the left
and a desire to redefine theseterms but I wonder if you see a
parallel between that and someof the weird right-winger stuff
that you see on Twitter, where,like left-wingers, high IQ

(02:00:38):
left-wingers are very good atcoming up with sometimes very
bizarre arguments for thingsthat are totally nonsense or
philosophically bankrupt andwhich really just bother lots of
people.
And it seems like you have theexact same thing kind of in the
right wing, where people willjust sort of spin their wheels,
generating bizarre ornonsensical justifications which

(02:01:01):
really are just likefundamental to maybe just like
an impulse or an aesthetic tastewithin them yeah, you know, I
think that there was that.

Speaker 5 (02:01:09):
You know I've always traced the great awakening
people.
You've all seen those chartswhere, like all these terms go
up in the new york times andwashington um, systemic racism
and so forth.
I've always thought that it justperfectly lined up, uh, to when
twitter took off.
So it starts around 20, youknow, 11, 2012.
That's about when twitter takesoff.
It sort of works perfectly.
Like, these liberals just gettogether and they radicalize

(02:01:29):
each other and everyone can tryto cancel everyone else, and so,
like, both had this era where,like, a lot of mentally unwell
people were just online all thetime and just going crazy and
making everyone else crazy.
And then, you know, elon muskbuys, buys, twitter.
And now it's it's the otherother side's, the other side's
turn.
And yes, I've been on twitter.

(02:01:50):
I mean, I was.
I was, like, you know, sort ofa dangerous person under the old
regime.
Like, like I had thesesuspensions that were just
ridiculous.
I mean, if I was a left-wingperson, there was no way I would
have had these suspensions.
I've written about them indetail.
They're just so, so stupid.
And now I'm sort of a littlebit.

Speaker 1 (02:02:11):
I'm privileged in the new Twitter.
I don't know what I'm saying itswitched.

Speaker 5 (02:02:15):
I mean I'm saying, but I'm saying recently it's
switched and now it's like I cansee that, like, right-wingers
are advantaged and so, like thecraziest people, don't get
lopped off.
The crazy, like you know,Fuentes and like Alex Jones,
they would all get kicked offhad problems.
Anyone who tried to be a miniFuentes or a mini Alex Jones
would get kicked off.
Now it's like they're all there, the left-wing people, the

(02:02:38):
crazy people.
They're just demoralized.
Some of them.
They can get banned, they canworry, but they have that worry
too.
These kind of Twitter is anunhealthy.
Twitter's been good to me, butit's an unhealthy ecosystem.
Any side that's not beingcensored is going to go crazy.
Sure.

Speaker 4 (02:02:57):
There's this kind of like mob, psychosis, which
people will engage in they'rejust people.
They resonate with these likeemotional ideas, they really
connect with them and it's sortof they work each other up.
But then you move away fromwhat is like true and real and
into this world of like customor religion, and I think that is
like so dangerous when you getaway from reality, left Like

(02:03:21):
Jesus knows I've done it plenty.

Speaker 1 (02:03:21):
I've got plenty of like issues with the woke stuff,
but like, let's have a realdiscussion about the Republican

(02:03:43):
Party and the state of theRepublican Party.
You know it was an insanelyhigh number of people that do
not believe the 2020 electionwas real.
You have a party with aninsanely high number of people
that were willing to believe theRay Epps thing at the Capitol
and a whole bunch of stuff aboutJanuary 6th and I'm not saying
this because I don't wantproductive relationships with

(02:04:06):
Republicans, but there is apenchant for insanity.
And now, as Trump's picks arecoming out, you know, I'm sorry,
tulsi Gabbard in charge of DNI,that is literally insane.
You know RFK in.
You know in charge of.
You know basically what was it?

(02:04:27):
Was it?
HHS he's in charge of.
Yeah, like this is reallyreally really crazy concerning
stuff.
So I guess it's like why do youthink a so much more of the
discussion ends up being aboutthe crazies on the left side,
which we both agree are aproblem?
And I guess my second questionis like what mechanism is there

(02:04:52):
to stop the Republicans fromdescending into madness?
Because I feel like we've seenthis show before and it doesn't
end up well.

Speaker 5 (02:05:02):
Yeah, I mean you're right.
I mean the reason we get moresort of discussion,
self-reflection of the left isbecause you guys engage in,
because the left engages inself-reflection.
I mean the right is a sort ofit's a personality called, and
it's always been like this to acertain extent.
I mean george w bush, I meanran on the idea that you know
we're not going to do nationbuilding and then he did all

(02:05:23):
these things in iraq and theyall became like all the people
who like love trump.
Now, um, not all of them, butlike a lot of them, most of them
, the big media figures like youknow.
You know Ann Coulter, laurenGrum and even Tucker and so
forth.
They were big terror warriors.
They wanted to catch theliberals.
Now they all pretend like theywill always against these, you
know, forever wars that theliberal establishment just
forced and foisted upon us.

(02:05:44):
So you know, conservatism hasalways been like this.
Trump took it like to 11.
I mean it was the sort ofenvironment was there to be
taken over by Trump and he justtook it to a different level.
We've seen more educationpolarization, where college
educated go more Democrat andthe less college educated go
Republican and then even more soin like its functioning
institutions, media, academia,and so yeah, I mean it's a

(02:06:09):
problem.
This is sort of a cycle and Iwonder I did not predict that
the trump picks were going to bethis crazy.

Speaker 1 (02:06:16):
There's a funny, very funny video I think there was a
clip going around today reallycalling you out on this yeah
saying that you would, I believeuh say you regret your trump
vote if rfk was put into power.
So I want to ask you do youregret your vote for donald
trump?

Speaker 5 (02:06:32):
yeah, so I was, yeah, I was on, uh, you know the
stream with destiny on, yeah,election night and it wouldn't
look like it was trump was gonnawin and you know it's like.
It's like at the point, like,do I regret my?
It's like I, I could be like 55percent trump, 45 kamala, and I
could change my mind the nextday.
I feel like you're really, it'slike I am just so.

Speaker 4 (02:06:56):
I feel similarly yeah .

Speaker 5 (02:07:00):
What's the point If I tell you today I would vote
Kamala 51.
Next week I could change mymind.
People would think I'm an idiotbecause I'm changing my mind.

Speaker 1 (02:07:06):
People are too much into them, I find this a really
dodgy answer, Richard, if I cansay so.

Speaker 4 (02:07:13):
I made a similar argument to Brianna.
Hold on, hold on.
I was in the same boat.

Speaker 1 (02:07:18):
Neither of you worked on Project 2025.
That is a high-level Republicanheritage operation.
I know people at Heritage.
Come on, Richard, Like you'retalking to me.

Speaker 3 (02:07:29):
That is a club that has a very specific environment
and a fundraising apparatus.

Speaker 1 (02:07:36):
You have to have certain attitudes to get into
the door there like you just doso and you're telling me you
could flip flop on a dime.
I just I.

Speaker 5 (02:07:45):
You're my friend, I don't believe that let's hear
about it.

Speaker 1 (02:07:49):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:07:51):
I was so wait, so your argument Brianna is that
you think that because I was onProject 2025, I have to be
you're predicting, I have to beloyal.
I think it's hard for me tounderstand personally.

Speaker 1 (02:08:03):
Now, it's been a long time since I've done anything
with Heritage or worked withthem.
But you know, like I think,they have a certain person that
they let into the door, that hasa certain set of attitudes and
it's just hard for me to believeyou would not be Team Trump.

Speaker 5 (02:08:21):
The gatekeepers are.
The gate is much more wide openthan you probably imagine.

Speaker 1 (02:08:27):
It could have changed .
It's been a long time so yeah,and it's good that you were in
there, yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:08:31):
And.

Speaker 1 (02:08:31):
I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:08:32):
But whatever I mean, even if I was like 100%, I mean
I wasn't, I wasn't.
You can go back, look at mywritings.
Whenever I was doing Project2025, I was criticizing Trump
for a very, very long time.
I mean I was very, very.
Maybe they don't pay attention,I don't know, but like that's,
you know it's not, the vettingprobably wasn't the best, or
they just like me, uh,regardless, um, but you know,

(02:08:52):
like, I think that you know, myargument before was, like the
people from heritage, like I, Ihad the same sort of, I think,
idea that you did this.
It was the same kind of ideathat like, look, it's going to
be heritage and it's going to beproject 24 five people.
It's gonna be like the americanfirst policy institute, which
you know has problems within anormal range of like, like you

(02:09:12):
know, sanity.
But that's not RFK people andthat's not Tulsi Gabbard people
and like Heritage would not haverecommended Matt Gaetz, that
would be too crazy.

Speaker 1 (02:09:21):
Oh my God, no, no, no , no.

Speaker 5 (02:09:23):
This has not been Heritage or Project 2025.
This has been partly that inthe appointments.
So, at least on his appointment, people but appoint people but
like you know, that's important.
Uh, it's been like the lunatics.
He's been on the campaign trail.
It's been like you know, it'sbeen like maha and uh, you know
these people who have these, youknow, alex, sort of the alex
jones wing of the republicanparty, and that's a very bad

(02:09:44):
sign.
That's not what I was expecting.

Speaker 4 (02:09:46):
That's the point of that really well, I made a
similar argument to brianna,which is that that if you're
going to vote for Trump, thereason to do that is you expect
that once he's in power, trump'sthis kind of narcissistic
buffoon on the campaign trailthat appeals to a certain type
of low human capital voter.
But once he gets in power, he'sgoing to surround himself with

(02:10:08):
people who are incrediblyintelligent and who can write
policy.
Who are incredibly intelligentand who can write policy, and
for me, like, the reason why Ikind of can go either way on
different days is because I'mdoing this calculation about
like which set of elites isultimately going to be better,
and not necessarily like thepersonality of Trump.
So you know, cards on the table.

(02:10:28):
I voted for Kamala Harris, butif I was going to vote for Trump
, it was because I thought maybehe had this potential to
surround himself with reallygood, very smart people who are
going to meaningfully challengethe kind of establishment stuff
but not go off the deep end.
And so I don't know.
I don't know what world we'rein now.

Speaker 3 (02:10:49):
I wanted to believe that too, but I'm thinking back
to his last term and I'm likehow many of them even lasted.
Like Trump demands this loyaltycomplex.
I don't know.
Like I, that's how I see it,and it's just like that's why
they all drop, like his cabinet,like everyone was.
You know, no one stayed around.
It was like it was just crazy.
So I'm left wondering the samething with RK.

(02:11:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean like, is this the sameTrump?
Or I don't think he is, but I'mlike what degree of that
loyalty is going to be necessaryfor?

Speaker 5 (02:11:24):
these people like RFK to stick around in that cabinet
.
He is, you know, the first term.
Yeah, he had these people whowere sort of adults and they all
ended up calling him Hitler andleaving and saying he was a
fashion and it was so funny, itwas like 46 cabinet and like 43
or something.
The numbers were something likethat like didn't support him in
2024.
And that was, you know, a signand I think he was sort of
changing.

(02:11:44):
You know, he's become drunkwith power.
I mean, he used to believe, youknow, I think he used to
understand that he was sort ofin a coalition and over time
it's like somebody's a dictator.
You know, for 30 years they goinsane.
He's become like a dictator inthe Republican Party.
He's become like sort of like amad king.
He goes.
I can appoint mydaughter-in-law Laura Trump.
I can make her, you know, theRNC chair.
He doesn't show up to the 2024primaries, he doesn't show up to

(02:12:07):
the debates, he just wins everyprimary.
He doesn't have to do anythingand it's just the connection he
has directly with the Republicanbase is just so strong that
he's just become this kind ofperson who, you know, he can
challenge them.
Now he can say about theabortion, he can talk about
things that you know.
He can create some distancebetween him and conservatives in
a way that he couldn't before,and so I think that's what we're

(02:12:29):
seeing.
It's like who is RFk?
Rfk is like not someone who hassupport among many conservative
donors or historically yeah,but it's just like trump likes
him because he likes trump, andlike it's going to be like that.
I mean, gates is onlyqualification.
You see that clip with gates.
You know I I stand up tonominate donald trump for
speaker of the house.

(02:12:49):
I mean just a ridiculous yeah,worship performance art and
every Republican in Congressthinks Gates is crazy and they
say they won't vote for him.
And it doesn't matter becauseit's just all about the Trump
cult now.

Speaker 4 (02:13:04):
But you still voted for him.
Yeah, and he still voted forhim.

Speaker 5 (02:13:07):
I know I mean I'm starting to see the error of my
ways.

Speaker 4 (02:13:15):
Just going back to that time, what were you?

Speaker 5 (02:13:17):
thinking.
Those are strategies.
If Burgum was the VP, that'sthe break.
Burgum is great, he just becameSecretary of the Interior, so,
who knows, trump might do greatthings and he might change my
mind tomorrow.
People look too much stock intowho are you going to vote for.
It doesn't matter, my ideas arewhat matter.

(02:13:38):
Right'm gonna criticize companydoes bad things.
If it was kamala, I wouldcriticize her for bad things.
It's not like okay, I've donethis calculation, now I'm gonna
give you okay, you should votefor proper, you should vote for
kamala.
It's the ideas that areimportant and I hope everyone
who's uh, you know who's hasinfluence on the right will
listen to my ideas and peoplewho have influence on the left
will listen to my ideas.
There, right, the who you'regoing to vote for thing.
It's sort of a loyalty test.
I think it distracts from whatI can provide to people.

Speaker 1 (02:14:01):
Fair enough, all right.
So, richard, I want to get to afun segment.
One of the things that we, whenyou and I got to be friends,
that kind of set things off alittle bit is when I announced I
was going on your show, Iposted a picture of Hunter
Schaefer and I posted this as anexample of just trans women

(02:14:24):
looking normal and hot.
And, oh my God, did transTwitter get angry at me?
I can't remember what you said,but you were like no, that's a
woman.
Get angry at me.
I can't remember what you said,but you were like now, that's a
woman.
So I I have noticed so we'reabout to get woke here on the
doll cast, I've noticed astunning lack of representation

(02:14:44):
in your thirst traps of thesisters.
You don't have any sisters inyour thirst traps.
So we have brought you someoptions today and we have
written some tweets in the styleof, in your style, and we would
like to propose this to you.
So we're going to put this upon screen right now.

(02:15:09):
Look, uh, look on yourtwitterms.
Okay, so what?
What is what?
What is your analysis of this?
Aesthetically, is this good,richard like?

Speaker 4 (02:15:22):
yeah, break it down.

Speaker 5 (02:15:23):
Break it down to us what happens if you're
considering making a thirst traptweet about this usually, um, I
like to have more to work within terms of I like videos or
TikToks or something.
Unless it's like Sydney Sweetie, if someone's famous, you can
have a little bit more room.
It's hard to just take a photoof somebody.
Look, she looks Asian Really.

Speaker 4 (02:15:48):
She looks like Southeast Asian, maybe she looks
like a ladyboy.

Speaker 5 (02:15:53):
This looks like a case for more immigration visas,
exactly.

Speaker 4 (02:15:59):
Only for the hot ones .

Speaker 5 (02:16:01):
What do I have to work with?
I have race.
I have big boobs.
Is that a cross?
No, it's not a cross that mightbe interesting to work with.
Yeah, she's very pretty.
Are you going to tell me she's?

Speaker 1 (02:16:16):
I didn't get the picture.
Uh, was this utah?
What's that?
Was this one of yours, taff?
Oh, no, I not me.
I'm pretty sure she's probablyskylar who sent this guy, it's
very pretty passing obviouslyyes, obviously, yes, obviously,

(02:16:39):
Okay, so here is the copy wewrote for you so bad.
Conservatives need to embracetheir inner desires.
Sometimes the best way to fightthe woke is with raw, unapetic
attraction.

Speaker 5 (02:16:55):
Wow, I'm sorry that doesn't.
That's funny.
That's my best that's.

Speaker 1 (02:17:01):
That's me trying to emulate you, so I guess I did
she said she could write youressays earlier, by the way, yeah
, I mean, you know it's not,it's.

Speaker 5 (02:17:11):
It's too it sexual.
You want sexual, but you don'twant to just say this is sexual,
so you don't want to say whatdid you say?
Something like raw, like.
I would not go that explicit.

Speaker 4 (02:17:22):
Imagine her as your milkmaid.

Speaker 5 (02:17:23):
You say something like that Like, yeah, like a man
, and you can think of asituation where, like, she would
be sexually attractive and shewould be around and she would be
available, and you would fillin the blanks, you would fill in
the picture in your own head.

Speaker 1 (02:17:37):
No, I get it.

Speaker 5 (02:17:39):
You can tie that into immigration or economics or
something else.
But just to go beat the wokeswith raw sexual attraction, go
have sex with these trannies,Okay so it's too vitalistic.

Speaker 1 (02:17:52):
That makes sense to me.

Speaker 3 (02:17:56):
I feel like because, of the immigration angle.

Speaker 1 (02:17:57):
This is a good option , so I'm going to give you
another one right now.
We'll edit the pauses out, allright, I think she this is I
think she's the prettiest, in myopinion.

Speaker 4 (02:18:12):
I'm eager to see.

Speaker 5 (02:18:18):
Not my type, honestly .
Not your type I don't mind fake, but there's a Do we know her.
I mean, I don't want to hurtanyone's feelings.

Speaker 1 (02:18:26):
No, no, no, I don't know her.

Speaker 5 (02:18:29):
Okay.
Yeah, the lips are too much.
I don't mind fake some things,but the lips are just.
I don't know.
Lips have to look natural to me.
It's my own aestheticpreference, so it's the lip
thing.
But you know she's pretty.

Speaker 1 (02:18:46):
She's so cute, oh my God.

Speaker 5 (02:18:48):
She's cute in like a little sister kind of way,
Little brother sister.

Speaker 1 (02:18:53):
Let's get a little sister kind of way, little
brother sister, all right, let'sget a little more exotic give
me representation, sister, sowe're gonna get a sister here oh
, these are all trans women dude.
Oh no, I thought you were.
I thought they're all like yeah, sisters is what we call.

Speaker 4 (02:19:08):
Other trans girls, oh okay, we adopt a lot of black
culture.
Yes, we do.

Speaker 5 (02:19:14):
Yeah, she's getting dropped off to college on her
first day.

Speaker 1 (02:19:23):
She's got the girls out.
I don't think she's gettingdropped off to college.

Speaker 5 (02:19:29):
It was zipped up before her dad dropped her off.

Speaker 4 (02:19:32):
Now it's coming down.

Speaker 5 (02:19:34):
Now she's out on the town.
Yeah, I don't know A tweet.
Videos are for the tweets.

Speaker 1 (02:19:41):
I got some trans girls to make some videos for
you.
I did send a video.
Okay, yeah, wait.

Speaker 4 (02:19:48):
Taff, you should send a video.
No, I sent it to you.
It's in your.

Speaker 5 (02:19:52):
This is one where you could say imagine caring if she
has a penis.
You could do it like that.
It wouldn't be that explicit.
It would be like imagine caringabout something as silly as
chromosomes, in a situationshe's sitting next to you.
You could do that.

Speaker 1 (02:20:08):
Okay.
I dare you to do that I dareyou to do that.

Speaker 5 (02:20:12):
All right, you want me to do it now.
You want to just go out thereand see it?
Yeah, I do, yes.

Speaker 1 (02:20:16):
I do Look at our fourth option, and then you can
make up your mind.
Ok, so here's one more.

Speaker 5 (02:20:32):
OK, this has sort of this has Game of Thrones.
This is kind of.
I'm watching first season ofGame of Thrones again.
This has a denarius look.
This has a conquering feel.
This is the best combination ofmale and female right, Because
you have the muscles.

Speaker 1 (02:20:52):
What there looks male to you, oh the stomach.
What there looks male to you,oh the stomach?
Yeah, okay, I see Muscularity,that's fair.

Speaker 5 (02:21:01):
I don't mind that.
I think that muscle is good.
Yeah, I mean even the shouldersand the chest.
Some guys are so worried aboutbeing gay they don't like any
muscle on women.
I don't agree with that.
Actually, I just stare at thebelly button really closely.
Yeah, I see men's health.

Speaker 1 (02:21:17):
I see men's health there, but it's okay all right,
I dare you to tweet this, andthen we'll put the video out
about the story behind the tweetokay, uh, let me see, let me
see.
Chromosomes.

(02:21:39):
It's such a privilege to seehow the magic happens.

Speaker 3 (02:21:43):
I know I'm getting an inside scoop this is amazing.

Speaker 5 (02:21:47):
Okay, now I'll do it in a question, because I don't
want to be that aggressive withthis one.

Speaker 3 (02:21:55):
How important are chromosomes really?
Oh?

Speaker 5 (02:21:58):
Really, once you've found what you're looking for.

Speaker 1 (02:22:05):
Yes, double entendre, I like that.

Speaker 5 (02:22:09):
Actually the fact check.
This is a trans woman, we arecertain.

Speaker 3 (02:22:13):
Yeah, we are certain.

Speaker 5 (02:22:14):
Oh really, Once you've found what you're looking
for.

Speaker 1 (02:22:16):
See, you don't even believe it.

Speaker 5 (02:22:19):
Well, I'm a very important.
You know.
Fact checking is very importantto me.
I try to differentiate myselffrom the low human capital
shared fake news.
If I got that wrong I would bevery upset.

Speaker 1 (02:22:28):
Okay, Source trans women said so be.

Speaker 5 (02:22:37):
Just like you know it's ambiguous.
There's like you want to getthe debate going because, like
there's like you want like fourdifferent things.
People can debate and if you'rereally smart you can usually
figure it out, but if you're not, you're just confused and
debating in the comments, whichis good for the elon bucks.

Speaker 1 (02:22:52):
So I do believe kelly is our little firecracker on
the show.
I do believe she found an oldertweet of yours she wanted to
talk about today.

Speaker 2 (02:23:01):
I didn't even have it like prepared.
I just found like an oldscreenshot of like I can pull it
up where you reply to somebody.

Speaker 5 (02:23:11):
Here's Taff.

Speaker 1 (02:23:16):
I've got it right here If you want me to read it.

Speaker 2 (02:23:18):
I think.
Yeah, I just found it.
You said people say you werereplying to matt walsh about a
video he did to dylan malvaniand you said people say this is
mean.
I think the situation calls forbrutal honesty.
You want to transition?
We wouldn't lie to you.
You'll be the ugliest woman inthe world, people will be
sickened and you'll need acensorship regimen to make them

(02:23:39):
suppress it.
No, before, I just want to like.
I just want some context, Iguess.

Speaker 5 (02:23:46):
I mean, you know it is what it is.
I think it's.
I don't think the context helps.
I there's truth in there andthere are like women who
transition and they look likelook, if you're going to become,
if you're going to present asthe sex opposite you're born,

(02:24:06):
you are going to sort of inspiresomething in people that is,
you know, you're going to bringit out Like I'll be honest with
you trans women do not.
I don't have that reaction totrans women.
When I see a biological womanwith a beard, I'll admit it
drives me up the crazy Like.
I have this instinct and someguys, some people.
I think, have that.
I just love women so much thatif you sort of are in the shape

(02:24:27):
of a woman, I'm just I'm happy.
It's sort of the opposite whereit's sort of frightening.
You know, and so like that'strue, and so like, and like I
think what I would change fromthat and you know, when and when
was this it?
was maybe like do you have thedate on that?
I don't, I couldn't, it wasjust a screenshot.
I found it was at least two orthree years whenever Dylan

(02:24:47):
Mulvaney was in the news.
I would put the emphasis, likepeople should just get used to
it, and I actually I stood up toDylan Mulvaney when this was
going on and I did say thatDylan Mulvaney was sort of fun
and nice and like why are youpeople putting bullets in beer
cans?
You're sort of a bunch oflunatics, and so I would sort of
change the emphasis.
I think I've seen it with likethe craziness of the right.

(02:25:09):
I see them go after surrogacy,I see the Dobbs stuff and what's
happening with the States andI'm just like much less
sympathetic to like thesepeople's gut instincts, because
like I have these gut instinctsbut like I don't have these gut
instincts about the things thatthey do, like abortion and
euthanasia and like surrogacyand all that other stuff.
Um, so yeah, there's, there'struth in that, but I think my
sort of attitude on this issuehas changed over time so do you

(02:25:31):
think trans women are a kind ofwoman like how do you classify
us?
you know, I'm like like it'swords, I mean words are words
like you know, you say is thisperson a liberal?
Look, we need a word.

Speaker 1 (02:25:44):
The word is trans woman.

Speaker 5 (02:25:46):
The word is trans woman.
Yeah, I'm fine with that.
I mean we can call them women.
I'm fine with using pronouns.
I see no reason to say I amstanding up for biological
reality, philosophical stance,by saying you are he and you are
she and you know, and so forth.
If you want to, you know he andyou are she and you know, and
so forth.
If you wanted to, you know, ifyou had some kind of pronoun

(02:26:06):
that was like completelydifferent, I mean that would be,
I think, weird.
I think that's like animposition.
But, brianna, it's natural forme to call you she, it's not.
I would have to work, I wouldactually have to work hard to
call you he, like I would haveto go out of my way to troll
people.
Any of you.
I mean, you all look like women.
I forget, I don't like.
It's not on the top of my mindthat you have penises.
If you still have penises, it'snot something that I think
about with talking to you, notall of us.

Speaker 1 (02:26:30):
So yeah, I mean, this is like If you had to guess
which of us had penises.
I want to know.

Speaker 5 (02:26:37):
Can you tell me how many do and how many don't, and
I can go.

Speaker 1 (02:26:41):
Two don't, two do Okay.
So you, how many don't?
And I can go Two don't two do.

Speaker 5 (02:26:43):
Okay, so you said you don't Brianna, so one of you
doesn't and two of you do.
I feel like Kelly, I thinkdoesn't.
I don't no, and you other twodo.

Speaker 4 (02:27:01):
That's correct.
Yeah, guilty, nailed it in oneImpressive.

Speaker 3 (02:27:08):
You had it easy with process of elimination.

Speaker 5 (02:27:10):
Come on yeah well I did, but still I had one of
three chance of guessing right.

Speaker 4 (02:27:15):
What was the thinking going into it?

Speaker 5 (02:27:19):
Taff.
Is that how you go by?
Yeah, you are.
I think you're moretranshumanist, so I think you
would want to combine the maleand female, and I think that I
think that Kelly I think she wasmore sort of feminine.
It would be like an easierdecision.
Like I, you know, I feel lessconflicted.
So I want to go all the way andget bottom surgery and then and
so I thought you were Taff wasmost likely to have a penis.

(02:27:39):
I thought kelly was the leastlikely, and then, you know, just
because two um, I started withyour name- skyler, yeah, skyler.
So I said yeah skyler has oneone also that's fairly good
analysis that's pretty good.

Speaker 3 (02:27:51):
Yeah, bring it down that's uh.

Speaker 5 (02:27:55):
I feel proud of myself, I feel like I feel like
I saw something that'sastonishing.

Speaker 1 (02:27:59):
You have a gift.
You have a gift to lead yourlife into the world.

Speaker 5 (02:28:04):
Richard, scientifically, you need to give
me more pictures of trans women.
I should probably need to seethem talking and stuff.
I need to see it.
There's a really hot video.

Speaker 1 (02:28:12):
There's a really hot video.
Taff took a while back and Imay jot that into your folder,
with her permission, for you toconsider.

Speaker 4 (02:28:22):
I don't know what this is.
I did send you a video jokingly.

Speaker 5 (02:28:26):
Okay, so should I play that, or is that our secret
?
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (02:28:28):
sure you can play it Are we going to.

Speaker 5 (02:28:31):
Let's see what this is.

Speaker 3 (02:28:37):
The face.
I love it.

Speaker 4 (02:28:41):
What's going through your mind, what's going through
your?

Speaker 1 (02:28:42):
mind.
What's going through your mindwhen she sees this?

Speaker 5 (02:28:46):
Just half sticking out her tongue.
Is that where?

Speaker 1 (02:28:48):
we're looking at.

Speaker 5 (02:28:51):
Very nice If I was not on the show.

Speaker 4 (02:28:53):
I would submit it to get the Hanania review.

Speaker 5 (02:29:02):
Yeah, you've got the look.
You've got this sort of boredteenage girl thing.

Speaker 4 (02:29:08):
Yeah, that's what I was going for.
You've nailed it.

Speaker 1 (02:29:11):
We have a question.
We ask everyone Do you thinktraps are gay?

Speaker 5 (02:29:16):
Do I think who is gay ?

Speaker 1 (02:29:17):
Traps are gay.

Speaker 5 (02:29:19):
What are traps?

Speaker 4 (02:29:20):
You heard this great meme Is it gay to be attracted
to trans women?

Speaker 3 (02:29:24):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (02:29:26):
You know it's?
I don't think so.
No, I mean, if that was yourthing.
If that was your thing, just tobe interested in trans women, I
think so, because that's prettyspecific.
But it's yeah, it's no as ageneral matter, I would say not.
You know it's no as a generalmatter, I would say I would say
not.
It depends on sort of what youwant the trans woman to do to do
to you, right?
I mean, there are some thingsthat the trans woman could do to

(02:29:52):
you that would probably be gayand other things that are not.
It probably does depend on thatsort of the nature of like what
you want done and what you,what you want.

Speaker 4 (02:29:56):
If you're the active partner, not gay.
It's very Greek of you.

Speaker 5 (02:30:04):
What goes you and who is the recipient and who is the
?
I mean all of this it's sort ofuh, there's some things where
some axiom and commits where youhave to be gay, I mean you,
just, you, just I think so, Ithink so it's not gay as long as
you call it a sheenus, yeahyour boyfriend and say, yeah,
I'm not gay.

Speaker 2 (02:30:20):
now I think it's gayer to be into non-binary
people, to be honest.

Speaker 4 (02:30:27):
Hot take.
What was it?
I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (02:30:32):
I was kidding.

Speaker 2 (02:30:32):
I was just saying I think it's gayer to be into
non-binary people.

Speaker 5 (02:30:37):
That's gay in the colloquial sense.
We need a word for that.

Speaker 1 (02:30:40):
Gay and non-binary attracted people in the
colloquial sense.
Yeah, that's like we need aword for that, mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 (02:30:43):
Gay and non-binary attracted people yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:30:48):
Do you?

Speaker 4 (02:30:51):
ever see like the towel boy memes on right-wing
Twitter?
Do you ever see those?
Oh my God, okay, well, okay, Iwant to ask you this just in
general, but I don't know howmuch you follow like the Bronze
Age pervert kind of crowd, um,because I was going to recommend
you read selective breeding thebirth of philosophy.
But they, they're obsessed withthe towel boy thing and being

(02:31:15):
nude bodybuilders who have sexwith maybe feminine young men or
maybe women.
It's, it's mysterious yeah, Idon't.

Speaker 5 (02:31:23):
I don't know.
Like you know, I've seen thesepictures of these bat meetups
and Maybe feminine young men ormaybe women.
It's mysterious.
Yeah, I don't know, I've seenthese pictures of these BAP
meetups and they're always theseshort, stout Indian guys.
I mean, there is a kind offantasy.
These people are warriors andthey're not actually in real
life.
So that world I don't knowwhether to take anything
seriously.
It just all seems like they'relocked from top to bottom.
It is.
It's very I don't know likewhether to take anything
seriously.
It just all seems like I lovefrom top to bottom it is.

Speaker 4 (02:31:45):
It's very like, I don't know.
It's very romantic, it's veryartistic in a way, I mean like
yeah, well, I think he's aromantic.
He's like very uh, I meanromantic in like the
philosophical sense, like uh,very much someone of passions,
and you know he gets away alittle bit from the rational
analytical stuff you think ofbronze age mindset.
It's kind of like a work of artmore than science.

Speaker 5 (02:32:07):
I think he needs to.
You know we talked about sortof being fresh and evolving.
He needs to, like I don't know,I read both of his books and I
used to like check out histimeline but like there's I
don't see progression and it's aperformance art but it needs to
progress, it needs to changewith the times and and so I was
hoping that would come out and,like, I don't know, do something
in real life.
But he sort of you know he doesit.

(02:32:27):
It sort of seems like it's a,it's a shtick, that sort of run
its course.
I don't want to say it's runits course, but, like you know,
I think it needs to sort of.
I think it needs some sort ofinnovation in that community.

Speaker 4 (02:32:39):
Yeah, what would you do if you were him?
How would you handle it?

Speaker 5 (02:32:42):
How do you inject freshness into it?
I can only be, I would.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard becausehe's got this image, like I
think he's got this image wherehe was for a very long time this
, oh, I'm this international manof mystery and, like you know,
I don't know who I am, and then,like you know, he's basically
doxxed, you know, comes out andthen it's like what do you do?

(02:33:04):
Like I think he's like got thisthing where it's like you can't
sort of seem like I'm very, Ithink, relatable, like people
feel like they can yell at meand like talk to me and so forth
.
I'm sort of down to earth andI'm in the comments section and
I'm, you know thing where he'shere and that's fine if you're a
dictator or something, youcould do interesting things with

(02:33:26):
that, but he's a character,right, and so what he does from
there, I don't know, becauseit's risky.
He can't just come and make adork of himself once in a while,
because it breaks the character.

Speaker 4 (02:33:39):
Yeah, he's sort of strangled, and that's what's
different.
Maybe himself once in a while,because it breaks the character.

Speaker 5 (02:33:42):
Yeah, he's sort of strangled by it, and that's
what's different.
Maybe he should become aleftist.
Maybe he should do what I do.
Yeah, the real, the ones whoaccept transsexuals, are the
left, the effeminate men.
I want to have relationshipswith them and the left will.
Let me do that.
That would be funny, but he'snot going to do that.
He's actually a conventionalsort of right-winger who just

(02:34:03):
thinks immigration is thebiggest issue and all politics
should be judged through thatlens.
He even says in Bronze AgeMindset, like at the end he's
like oh, support Ann Coulter andPat Buchanan and Victor Orban.
He mentions Orban I don't knowif he mentions Ann Coulter and
Buchanan but basically says likesupport anyone who wants to
stop immigration.
And so it is a kind of like atits root.
It is a kind of whitenationalist, nativist worldview,

(02:34:27):
and so if you're that, then youcan't go.
You can't go left, because yoursort of focus is very narrow.
So I don't know, I don't thinkhe's just a performance artist,
right?
I think he believes things solike I can't say like what he
should do without saying,without saying what would be
consistent with his.

Speaker 1 (02:34:42):
So, richard, I ask you, why do people think you're
a white supremacist and a Nazi?
What's going on with that?

Speaker 5 (02:34:48):
I used to write things that sounded like that.

Speaker 1 (02:34:52):
Like what, like what?
What did you say?

Speaker 5 (02:34:54):
Like bad things.

Speaker 1 (02:34:55):
Like what, like what.
Give me an example.

Speaker 5 (02:34:58):
I wrote that maybe we should.
I basically wrote for race youknow, immigration restriction as
policies.
I did write some things thatthe quote that people always use
is about, like maybe we shouldsterilize all these people.
I didn't say that it was.
It was more of a hypothetical,theoretical kind of thing.
But you know it was a goodinterpretation.

(02:35:18):
And yeah, I was.
You know, I was like friendlyto like a kind white nationals
as a check on wokeness, Ibelieve 12 years ago.

Speaker 1 (02:35:30):
Have you ever had an interracial relationship?
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (02:35:35):
Yeah, I think it's hot.

Speaker 1 (02:35:38):
I'm really not that into white guys to be honest
with you.
I think Asians that would beguys to be honest with you, like
I think Asians that's thatwould be, that's a unique
preference, but yeah, I meanthat's great.

Speaker 5 (02:35:47):
It's great, people have different preferences.

Speaker 2 (02:35:49):
I do, I would never.
I'm like white guy, obsessedReally.

Speaker 4 (02:35:56):
Really.

Speaker 2 (02:35:56):
Really, is that racist?
I feel like people would saythat's racist of me.

Speaker 4 (02:36:01):
I think it's kind of common actually.

Speaker 5 (02:36:02):
No, Kamala lost.
I think we're open to new ideas.

Speaker 1 (02:36:07):
You can say anything now.
What is interesting about whiteguys to you?

Speaker 3 (02:36:12):
I just, I don't know, I really don't know, I just
like white guys, I would neverdate a black man or an Asian man
or an Indian.

Speaker 2 (02:36:20):
I would always go for white guys.

Speaker 5 (02:36:22):
Where does whiteness end?
Does he have to be Nordic?

Speaker 2 (02:36:26):
No American, Only American.

Speaker 4 (02:36:29):
Oh, so not European.

Speaker 1 (02:36:30):
You wouldn't think so .

Speaker 2 (02:36:33):
No, I like people that are from America.
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (02:36:38):
That's an interesting preference.
Yeah, that is interesting.
What about an Armenian American?

Speaker 2 (02:36:43):
I guess I'd have to like see a video of like this
person and their accent to knowexactly what, because I don't
really know what you guys meanby that.

Speaker 5 (02:36:50):
Like I'm having the caucus in a gold chain no, oh my
god, I mean I hate and thatweird jewelry too.

Speaker 2 (02:37:01):
I can't like that Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:37:02):
I feel like I've got to make the case for Asian men.
Okay, Number one very littlebody hair.
I really appreciate that.
Smart, above average earnersthey tend to.
They are adventurous.
Typically they are in andthey're put together Like so I
don't know, I think Asians, Ithat's the way to go, put

(02:37:26):
together, you mean like sort ofstable and yeah, yeah, they've
got their stuff together yeah, Idon't know if that's what women
like.

Speaker 5 (02:37:33):
That's not exciting, I think, to a lot of women.
Yeah, I think it is to somewomen, but not not all of them.

Speaker 4 (02:37:38):
So a lot of women like more masculine traits, so
like, if you look at the datingstatistics breakdown, it turns
out that women tend to prefermen of their own race, but also
slightly prefer like white andblack men, and for men, men tend
to prefer like Asian women andwhite women and that's kind of

(02:37:59):
like broadly true over a lot ofdifferent ethnicities of men.
But some of the hypothesis forwhy is kind of the opposite of
what you're saying, brianna,where like the idea is that,
from you know a white woman'svantage point, she might see an
Asian guy as being like morefeminine because he has less

(02:38:20):
body, hair and therefore likeless sexually dimorphic.

Speaker 1 (02:38:24):
So there's like less attraction there, which is why
asian men sometimes feel likethey're kind of left out of the
dating pool no, no, like you metmy husband, he's got this
energy of like a mongolian thatjust crawled over the wall and
is about to take on the entirearmy, like I was gonna say he's

(02:38:44):
like a puppy, like he's verysweet yeah but he's actually a
mongolian conqueror, yeah ohyeah, oh yeah, I'll tell you
stories later, yeah well, we allknow why men prefer asian women
.

Speaker 4 (02:38:58):
Like, let's be real why do they prefer asian women?
Yeah, why, oh my?

Speaker 2 (02:39:03):
god, because they're smaller, because they look more
like innocent, like I mean notto say all men, I don't think
like all men are predators.
I know that's like a topic thatgot slightly brought up, but I
mean there's a reason.
Like teen is like the topcategory on adult websites, and
then it's like asian women thatlook young as fuck, like let's
be honest richard, where's yourranking?

Speaker 1 (02:39:21):
where's your ranking?
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (02:39:22):
uh, as far as uh women go, favorite races, either
I'll listen to either men orwomen uh, no, I I think women,
yeah, I mean I think it's whitesand I think whites and asians
are really yeah you fall rightinto the.
I really like I will say I dolike variety and like, if I'm
looking at like a certain kindof woman for a while, I want

(02:39:43):
something else.
I mean I think this is normalfor a lot of guys I think be um
more than most and I think I'mprobably uh um yeah, I would,
yeah, I would say, like there'sa, there's a, there's a nordic
prototype, there's a southerneuropean mediterranean prototype
, there's an asian prototype.
Those are all beautiful andamazing, um, and then there's,

(02:40:04):
like other women will also getlike, to the extent they match,
can match those or come close tothose prototypes.
Then, uh, that, that yeah, butlike I can't choose between them
.
You understand, it's just sortof the variety is the most
important thing see, I do likeblack women.

Speaker 4 (02:40:18):
I think black women are gorgeous and like I mean
it's like we were saying earlierin terms of like very
curvaceous, um, like black womenand latinas who like fall into
that category, very much likethe type of women that I find
attractive.

Speaker 1 (02:40:32):
So yeah, what about?
This is my theory.
What you were saying about mengetting bored with stuff.
This is my theory about why menget into trans women, because I
think that, like they've seen,all the porn of the most
instagrammed girls from the timethey've hit puberty and I think
at some point they wantsomething a little bit more

(02:40:52):
exotic, and that's what bringsthem to trans women's doors, in
my opinion I think it feels likesort of like you can be
yourself because you know theylike video games yeah they're
going to be more sexual, likeyou know.

Speaker 5 (02:41:07):
I think there's part of that too, but yeah, a lot of
it's just variation, right, it'sjust uh tricks with something,
something extra yeah, I meanthat is bad like most
perversions.
People are like oh, men aresick.
Yeah, they just want different.
Like different can take youinto all kinds of directions I
don't think that's true, oh, goahead.

Speaker 4 (02:41:24):
Yeah, oh well, I'll let you go in a second.
There's this book, by like theact like google founder guy is
called billion wicked thoughtsand it talks about like why men
might be attracted to transwomen.
I think one of the theoriesthat they posit is that men,
they just they're very visuals.
They see like boobs and theysee like feminine face and it
doesn't really matter, like theexact context, like a guy could

(02:41:45):
he could masturbate to like acurvy piece of driftwood, like
it doesn't really matter, butwhen he sees like the penis,
there's this like sexualcompetition response as well,
and both of these responsesexist simultaneously and so it
like heightens the arousal to belike I fully I'm getting like
the part of my brain that lightsup when I see a naked woman is
going, and then also there's apart of my brain which is like I

(02:42:07):
need to compete with whateveris belonging.
This owns this penis.
So that was their theory aboutwhy.

Speaker 5 (02:42:16):
You feel like you could win the competition too,
because it's often shriveled.

Speaker 4 (02:42:19):
Exactly.
Yeah, You're like oh, I cantotally dominate this tiny
creature.

Speaker 1 (02:42:26):
Yeah, I don't know.
I think most men just want tobe loved.
I think that's really it.
Of course, I think, because ofthe trauma, a lot of trans women
especially ones into men, whichare vanishingly rare these days
, I don't know think like we'revery loyal to our men.

Speaker 5 (02:42:46):
So I think I think that's a lot of it I'm gonna
tell my maybe I'll tell myfollowers to uh to consider
trans women, I think, instead ofuh, but you guys probably don't
want the incels anymore.

Speaker 1 (02:43:01):
I'm good.
I'm good, my husband has a.
Phd and makes a ton of moneyand is a science fiction
celebrity.
I don't need an incel, I'm good.

Speaker 4 (02:43:14):
I think you should send your followers.
Yeah, I think there's some nicetrans women out there who would
love to chat with me, andNarnia.

Speaker 5 (02:43:23):
Even before you get to that, I I've been telling
these guys, by the way, we'vegot like for this tweet I sent
out.
We've got 21 replies and 111likes.

Speaker 1 (02:43:30):
Yeah, that's not really good.
I'm disappointed.

Speaker 5 (02:43:32):
Yeah, 111 likes 10,000 or so views.

Speaker 1 (02:43:35):
It'll be bigger.

Speaker 5 (02:43:35):
This will be.
Maybe this might reach sixfigures eventually.
Anyways, yeah, I've beentelling them to like you, you
morons who are likeanti-immigration, like before
you even have to, you don't haveto like you don't even have any
trans women, you can just likethere's a world out there of
women who, like would just likedie to come to America and you

(02:43:56):
have like a lot of money.
You know relative to them andlike relative to them and like
they're short, and maybe you'reshort and they're even shorter.
There are some races that arevery short and like, compared to
american women, maybe you're,you're not, you're not tall
enough, um, but no, like theincels are the ones who want to
restrict immigration.
Like, figure that out.
It's just, it's completelyirrational.
I've been trying to sort oftalk them into, into having a

(02:44:16):
healthier attitude towards thesethings, so do you expect to do
any work with the Trumpadministration.

Speaker 1 (02:44:24):
Not like, not publicly Not publicly, so sort
of a back channel thing.

Speaker 4 (02:44:31):
But yeah, from behind you'll be puppeteering.
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:44:33):
Whatever I mean, I can say it, it's not going to
matter.
Some journalist is going toNothing matters anymore.
Gates, these crazy people.
I feel like nothing can doanything.
Yeah, I mean the civil rightsstuff.
That's the stuff they'll listento me on.
I'm sort of not in goodstanding.
The economic views I have aregoing to be represented.
Oh, the Israel stuff.

(02:44:54):
Yes, I will be a voice on that.

Speaker 1 (02:44:58):
Will you back channel ?
I would love to go to the WhiteHouse and make the case for
Trump on this executive orderhe's talking about signing.
I would be on that he's talkingabout signing an executive
order saying that your birthgender should be the only gender
reflected in legislation, andfederal documents should require

(02:45:21):
that.
I would love I'm working toback channel this so any help
you can give me and yeah, Idon't know.

Speaker 5 (02:45:27):
We're gonna say there's a, there's something on
israel that you want to talkabout, and then that would talk
about israel.

Speaker 1 (02:45:33):
I would love to talk israel really bothers me that
elon is uh trying to undermineour foreign policy by trying to
uh talk to Iran's embassy.

Speaker 5 (02:45:44):
That's really out of bounds.
Yeah, I did see that I do havea little bit more.
You know, I'm like sort of moreopen to talking.

Speaker 3 (02:45:51):
But yeah, I mean I think we should.

Speaker 5 (02:45:52):
Probably.
You know the Iranian regime.
Yeah, you're right.
I mean it is kind of, butanyways, if you want to do
something out of Israel, I thinkthey would love to have this
left-wing trans woman come tothe white house and be alive.

Speaker 1 (02:46:04):
Yes, I'll do that I'll talk to him.

Speaker 5 (02:46:06):
I think that would be better, and then uh, yeah, I
mean you can.
You could maybe bring out, youcan.
Maybe, if you're talking totrump one-on-one, maybe you can
charm him and he won't see whathappens use your feminine wiles
on him, yeah you're up againstjenner.

Speaker 3 (02:46:21):
You haven't, you haven't made, you're good I
wonder if trump would be.

Speaker 5 (02:46:26):
I wonder what trump would do if he was, like
approached by a very attractivetrans woman like I.
I wonder it can go in eitherdirection.
People forget this.

Speaker 1 (02:46:34):
He's in the miss universe um, the miss universe
concert and back.
I think this was 2002, um,because I was transitioning.
At the time there was a bigscandal where someone was in the
Miss Universe contest and shewas trans and he held this press
conference to announce if hewas going to let trans women
participate in his contest.

(02:46:54):
He came out in favor of itbecause she was insanely hot.
So I think Trump thinks withwith a very singular dimension,
if you get my meaning well, he'sa red-blooded american man yes,
I think trump is just aattention hog, so that was a
good way to get attention backin.

Speaker 5 (02:47:13):
Yeah, but he stood by that position about trends and,
uh, beauty pageants in the 2016.
It was one of those thingswhere, like people, like oh,
this is gonna sink trump.

Speaker 1 (02:47:22):
And then it didn't matter, because you know,
nothing matters, it's just yeah,yeah, all right, we got another
more of the show to get to.
So, uh, we are going to say ourgoodbyes, but uh, I know, this
is so fun yeah, absolutelyanytime.

Speaker 5 (02:47:41):
All right, it was fun guys thanks for coming.

Speaker 3 (02:47:43):
Bye, bye, all right, that was great y'all.
I had so much fun talking withyou all me too thanks for
hanging out.
Yes, oh, thanks for hanging outwith us over here at doll cast.
It's always a blast unpackingthese topics.
Make sure to subscribe on toour YouTube channel, dollcastr8n

(02:48:04):
that's DollcastR8N for morecontent and follow us on TikTok
at Dollcast for your daily doseof insight and laughter.
You can also check us out on Xat Dollcast Show.
We can't do this show withoutyour support.
Until next time, stay fabulous.
Ok, bree.
This episode is.

Speaker 1 (02:48:23):
Terminated.

Speaker 3 (02:48:25):
Taff.
This episode is Terminated.
And Kelly, this episode isTerminated.
That's right, y'all you heardit.
This episode is terminated.
Thanks for tuning in.

Speaker 1 (02:48:37):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (02:48:42):
Three hours.

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