E1x04: The Plot to Destroy Ben Ryan

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
kelly (00:01):
welcome to dog house with kelly kagan I know you guys are
gonna tell me I'm crazy, but Ithink all gay men would benefit
from a gender transition rihannawoo you know who rihanna woo is
.
It was uh people online.

(00:22):
I said you have been here, so Idon't.

Schyler (00:24):
I don't remember what she has got more confused on
girls or boys would be a betterfit for me, and when you're
bisexual and you have thepotential for either, you gotta
parse that out a little bit andtaj tough.

taftaj (00:38):
Having your story heard, having people empathize with
you on that kind of politicallevel, I think it's really hard
to do.

Brianna (00:45):
It's the Dollcast.
Mostly normal women.

Schyler (00:52):
Hi there and welcome to Dollcast, where real
conversations meet a little bitof sparkle and sass.
I'm your host, skylar, andwe've got an exciting show today
for you, with a mix ofheartening topics and some
lighthearted fun.
As always, I can't do thisalone, so let's introduce the
fabulous co-hosts who keep theshow lively and awesome.

(01:14):
So first off, we have our wiseand ever mystical muse, taftaj.
She's here to drop some insightand a little bit of magic.
How's it going, taft?

taftaj (01:27):
to drop some insight and a little bit of magic.
How's it going?
Task it's doing, it's goinggood.

Brianna (01:31):
I'm podcasting from swiss alps today, which is why I
have a different god.
Can you get like a swiss madecostume and then wear it on the
show.

taftaj (01:38):
I don't even know what that looks like, but I would
love to do that.
That would be so fun.

Brianna (01:41):
The swiss mist box, that's something that's very uh.
It would work with your bodytype, I think I would say right,
I'm thinking of what you'reputting.

taftaj (01:51):
It's yes, yeah, um no, that'd be awesome, for sure it's
.
It's really lovely here havinglots of fun.

Schyler (01:57):
So oh, we're happy you're able to join.
Of course, no, we're so in awhole other time zone whole
other country.

Brianna (02:04):
It's amazing I was scrambling all week to have
backup trans girls, just in caseyou couldn't make it.

Schyler (02:11):
So there we go and that my friend is brianna woo.
She's always holding ustogether and she's breaking down
politics, or maybe she'swinning at mario kart.
I mean, she brings the energyand she brings the fire what's
up, brie?
What's going on with you?

Brianna (02:26):
I just got back from Disney.
So last week Frank and I werejust like we're sitting there on
Sunday.
We're like God, I'm so sad thatTrump won.
And I'm like, wait, we don'thave to be here in Boston, we
can be anywhere.
Do you want to just go down toDisney World and just spend like
a week down there?
So we'll work during the dayfor our hotel room and then go
hit the parks at night andFrank's like, yeah, let's go put

(02:48):
the dogs in jail, let's do it.

Schyler (02:50):
So I literally just started like an escape from just
the everyday, like drama andthe politics, the politics that
are going on right now.
I don't blame you.

Brianna (02:59):
Yeah, it's so good.
I mean this it's okay.
I mean this is something likeyou'll find, uh, as you uh get
older, uh, sky is, you've reallygot to make time to put your
marriage first, because stuffwill happen and you just like,
when hard times come, you got tomake sure you're taking time
for that.

Schyler (03:14):
So this way, all my flaws, my marriage on the back
burner.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, you know what I'm saying.
It's like so easy to forget thatyou know it's true, it's true
no, my parents said the samething and it's like, well, you
know, um, I, I know I hear itand that's well, that's why we
take trips like we do.
We just, you know, I, I don'tknow if I were going to disney

(03:37):
every you know year or so, butwe are taking little, we take
little trips.
We do like hiking just anythingto get out of the house and out
in nature.
That's, that's our way to do it.
I mean, we don't have the moneyto necessarily go and take
these grand trips, but, um, wedo, we do budget for it once a
year.
That's like our way to do it,but let's, let's continue.
We have to get to our finalco-host, kelly cadigan, known

(03:59):
for bringing the tea and alittle bit of spice.
Kelly, how are you doing thisweek?

kelly (04:04):
I'm doing really good, a lot better than I was on last
week's show.
That's very damn sure I'm readyto bring the positive vibe I
loved last week's episode.

Brianna (04:14):
it comes out tomorrow and it is honestly the best
segment I think we've ever donelike it.
Just it turned into this, thisemotional.
I hope y'all will watch it Likethis was us at our best, so it
was good.

kelly (04:28):
It was just a downer.

Brianna (04:33):
I mean, you know, do y'all ever worry about that with
this show, that, like transtopics, like we were in our show
meeting, we were really worriedabout this because, like this
week, trans women are underattack with bathroom access.
Yeah, nancy mace is trying tobecome the um american spinoff
of jk rowling and you know she'sabout to put out, uh, some

(04:54):
legislation that's going toaffect, like, trans women in
airport bathrooms, right?

Schyler (04:59):
so it's harder core than jk rowling like in my
opinion, I agree also like I getconfused with jk because, like
she started out, very like, Ithought middle of the road, like
okay, fine, like I get what,like what.
Her first tweet, the one thatlike started everything, that
was like forced women out oftheir like spaces or something,
I honestly I I'm gonna forgetthat she was kind of moderate at

(05:22):
first, yeah at first right, andnow she's like.

Brianna (05:26):
Now it's like okay, she's made it her own grift and
it's all right but what I wasjust gonna say is, like, as far
as the show itself, I I reallyworry about this because I don't
want this.
I I think this happens in transspaces so often is it becomes

(05:46):
doom and gloom, and I want, like, the focus of our show to be
about four cool, like transgirls coming together, having
friendship and having funconversations too.
So I don't know, that'ssomething I was just worried
about.

Schyler (05:59):
I don't think it's all doom and gloom.
I think it's tempting to feelthat way right now, but for me
it like I always think like thebigger picture, like right now
in the first okay, you're fouryears Trump's in office, there's
a right wing agenda and it'svery trans.
It's very critical of transmedicine and trans everything.
That's like anything that hasto do with gender nonconformity,
I feel like is on the choppingblock a little bit here, yeah,

(06:23):
and it's like I don't thinkthey're going to get to the
point of coming after our hrt.
But seeing nancy mace weaponizewhat's going on about, like you
know, trans women as a threatbecause they're men is a little
concerning yeah, it doesn't helpthat she looks quite masculine
too do you think so?

Brianna (06:41):
I think she's really pretty.
Actually, I mean, I don't wantto talk.

kelly (06:46):
I'm not wanting to talk about people's looks, but I just
think, like I, she looks likesomeone that, like I, could be
like.
Oh, is that person maybe transand like, not in a bad way, but
just like this is what is thatlike with these bathroom bills?

taftaj (07:00):
the trans hysteria is just at this fever pitch.
You just know that there'speople who they believe in their
heads that they can like clocktrans women perfectly.
They cannot.
And there's going to bemasculine women or older women
or women with pcos or whateverit is, who are getting harassed
in restrooms because people areinsane.
So you're like exactly right,which is like these standards

(07:22):
for femininity?
They ultimately hurt women andthat's really tragic.

Brianna (07:27):
So I I've said this to you before taft that, like one
of the cool things about gettingolder is, you know, uh, cis
women they've had a lot ofplastic surgery to look young,
look pretty much the same astrans women with ffs.
It's the exact same carefullysculpted feminine aesthetic
that's slightly artificial andyou don't know which one it is,

(07:50):
so I don't think there's thatmuch of a difference.
To be honest, it's a goodpassing path.

Schyler (07:57):
Can we just talk a little bit about the Nancy Mae,
sarah McBride drama that hasbeen all over X.
I have not seen anythingcaptivate the trans community
like this, and when I say transcommunity I'm just talking about
the big profiles on x with likethe trans stuff and it's like I
I have such mixed feelingsabout this because I, I I

(08:18):
support nancy mace's likeprotect women and girls.
I, I believe in protectingwomen and girls.
I don't want fetishists orpeople whipping out their dick
in the women's room like that'snot okay.
But do we feel like the whole,like scorched earth, all
biological males are predators?
Approach makes sense because Ithink it's absurd.

kelly (08:39):
Yeah, it's not about affecting women or girls to her.
It's something way.
It's rooted in transphobia.
That's why I can't agree yeah.

taftaj (08:47):
And yeah, no, I'm all for protecting people, obviously
, but I think that, like thisbathroom bill is such a good
example of like, how false thissort of like pretense is for
protecting women and girls,because harassing people in
restrooms that is illegal, rightand like if you're being

(09:08):
harassed or assaulted like youcan and should call the cops and
report that and someone can andshould be charged for that.
And we don't need this extraline of like.
Well, you know they shouldn'tbe in the bathroom because
that's not really actuallydefending people.
It's just about creating thislike punitive state apparatus
for, like policing whichrestroom people use in, um, and

(09:32):
it doesn't work.
Like, it doesn't make sensepragmatically either.
Like it's just going to end uphurting like masculine women and
, at the end of the day, I thinkit is so clearly just about
transphobia and not actuallyabout helping people, because I
don't see any world in which abathroom bill actually improves

(09:53):
the outcomes, you know, reducessexual assault.
I just don't see that.

Brianna (09:57):
I was in the bathroom last week and somebody asked me
like they were out of like youknow tampon and they asked me if
I had anything Like they didn'teven clock me as postmenopausal
.

Schyler (10:07):
I'm not a lesbian or trans woman.

Brianna (10:09):
Do you know what I mean ?
Like it's this is not going toaffect anyone on this show.
Like it is going to targetlesbians primarily and like the
thing is they can treat us aspartners to bring this crazy out
of the trans community.
There's a discussion we need tohave as a trans community about

(10:31):
people with beards that make noeffort to pass walk into the
ladies, because we've seen theseTikToks, we know there's a
portion of our community thatwants to do this.
But at the same time, like itis like like you can't do that
if you're trying, like thisscorched earth, all or nothing
thinking, because all it does isforce us to get our hackles up

(10:55):
and then it turns into anotherstupid left versus right culture
war where no public policy thataddresses anyone's need is
going to get like put forward.

Schyler (11:05):
So so right, like, oh my gosh, okay, I, I'll share
this so you can put this on thescreen.
But this picture y'all y'allremember, did y'all see this?
No, oh my gosh, this whole, sothis is exactly what we're
talking about here.
This the fetishist oh my God,yep Invading women's faces, and

(11:25):
it's like, look, I'm completelyagainst that too.
Like, why is this person thinkthat, oh yeah, because I'm
wearing I don't know lingerieout in public, I get to go.
And now, and I'm a woman, and Iget to go in the women's space.
It's like, no, that's soinappropriate, and so it's like
I the.
The problem is, is that, like,what recourse do women have to

(11:45):
say no to that person being intheir space?

taftaj (11:48):
Right, yeah, I mean, I just think there needs to be
like standards for how you existin public, and if you're
wearing like fetish gear inpublic, like frankly, I think
that's something that can peopleshould reasonably be able to
remove you from their premisesand, you know, know, if you're
pulling out your penis, youshould be charged with like

(12:08):
assault in public, of course, ofcourse this is so like common
sense, is it?

Schyler (12:14):
is it like the?
Because fetish gear could belike what if they're not nude?
Like it's like?
I know it's still like.
Oh, it's not.

taftaj (12:22):
Well, it'll say like a full fetishist is wearing like
sandals or something, right, ohyeah, and like, in their mind,
they think it's sexy, whatever,or I don't know someone, they go
out with their partner andthey're in like a dom sub
relationship and you know, thedom says, like you have to go
order something from thatcounter or something.

(12:44):
You are involving other peoplein your sexual fetish and those
people are not consenting tothat.
I think that's, you know,really gross behavior.
I don't think that'snecessarily something that, like
, we can legislate.
And so for me, it comes back tolike this, like pragmatic line
in the sand.
Like this, like pragmatic linein the sand where, like, if it's

(13:07):
obvious that someone's engagingin fetishistic behavior, I
think that's something that wesocially can agree should be
prohibited, maybe with law,right, and you know, in terms of
going further, trying to getinto people's heads, I don't
think we can really do thateffectively.
We just have to accept that,like, okay, there might be a
foot fetishist who wears sandals.
That might happen.
There's no way for us to know,um, but I think you mean we

(13:28):
can't read minds.
Yeah, I wish, right, um, butthat's why these bathroom bills
are so ridiculous to me isbecause you know, we talk about
actual enforcement of them.
Um, you're not going to have apolice officer checking people's
genitals or ids at the front ofthe door.
Can't have that happen.
So it has to happen after thefact.

(13:49):
Right, you have to rely oneveryday people to call the
police and report suspiciousbehavior, which they should be
doing anyways.
If someone's engaging in rapeybehavior, and so I don't really
see the point except toaggravate the charges after the
fact, and that also seemsunnecessary to me um, maybe

(14:12):
there's like argument to be hadabout that, in which case, like
you, just you know, you don'tmake it illegal to enter the
bathroom, but you say that, like, if you, you know, assault
people in a public restroom,maybe that carries like an extra
, you know, aggravating factor I, I don't know.

Brianna (14:27):
I think this is where, like tanf, I know you are I
don't want to say moresympathetic to the non-binary
political project, but I thinkyou are you're more well.
I guess this is.
The conflict that I feel hereis that 20 years ago when I
transitioned, all this stuff wason the honor system and trans

(14:48):
women by and large understood weneeded to fly under the radar
and not cause a seam in there,and there was a lot of like,
like.
I can remember sister sharingpics with me.
It would be like am I ready touse the bathroom yet?
Do I need to get further intoelectro, like all that kind of
stuff as you're doing RLE?
There was an informal culture intrans spaces to not get in

(15:11):
trouble, and that culture hasswitched where it's now an
entitlement culture where peoplethat I personally don't think
are trans are like of course Ibelong in there.
What are they going to do?
It's very male coded, there'sno effort to get along, and the
only public policy solution Ican personally think of for that

(15:33):
is it comes down to eithercarry letters, like we used to
have back in the day when you'restarting RLE, or like what your
legal gender is on yourdriver's license, of which I do
think we need a process to startsorting that out, rather than
just the honor system.
I do think you should have amedicalized transition if you're

(15:54):
going to have F on the driver'slicense.
That doesn't necessarily meanvaginoplasty, but I think you
need to be on a medical pathwaycertified by someone.
So I think it's really hardwhen you have this gender
expansionist project.
Like, how do we handle thosefaces with those people?
Because, like again, thecalifornia law happened, the we

(16:15):
spot incident happened becauseof this non-binary political
project here in massachusetts.
I'm like 90 sure you can justgo in there, no matter how you
identify and like it's, it's aproblem.
Does that make sense?

taftaj (16:29):
to you, I mean yes and no.
So like, quite frankly, I thinkin a more sane country, you
know, you would just have like astalls room and maybe like a
urinals room.
The stalls room is biggerbecause stalls should not you
should not be able to seepeople's feet and like see, you
know, through the holes.
That's nonsense.
Like you should just be able togo into a stall and do your

(16:51):
business, whether you're a manor a woman.
Time for better bathrooms.
Yeah, this is, like you know,kind of besides the point, but,
like the fact that restrooms aresegregated at all, I think it's
really a problem which comesfrom, like urinals and the fact
that, like men just have theirpenises out and like that can be

(17:11):
a really uncomfortable andweird and, you know, rapey
situation for women.
You know, if a guy's likegesturing at his penis and she's
like walking by the urinal,gross, understandable.
Like women don't want to seethat and, frankly, like some
guys are shy and they don't wantwomen to be walking by, that
makes sense to me.
Um, I think, though, what wehave here is that, like I think

(17:34):
you you do have a lot of likegenuine transphobia, where, like
it doesn't make sense to likecare really that much about the
presentation gender-wise of theperson in the stall next to you.
I think people fundamentally,at the end of the day, need to
get over that, and we can't likehodl these behaviors and tell
women that, like you should bereally worried about, like

(17:56):
whether or not someone in thestall next to you has, like some
facial hair right said.
That said, like you're saying,trans community used to be a lot
smaller.
It used to be a lot easier toenforce these informal rules and
the stakes used to be a lothigher.
Trans women knew that theydidn't have this big social

(18:16):
apparatus behind them to defendthem, so they really needed to
present a certain way to avoidtrouble.
That makes sense.
We don't live in that worldanymore and now the expectation
from people is they can reallycross a lot of boundaries, they
can make other peopleuncomfortable and it's up to
other people to like affirmtheir gender at.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat's really toxic and I do

(18:40):
think to some extent, it makessense to maybe have the
government step in when peoplecan't socially regulate
themselves, and so maybe thatmeans, like you know, if you go
into women's restrooms orwomen's locker rooms.
You have to have some sort ofindicator to prove that you're

(19:00):
not going to act like a psycho.
Pull out your penis, you know.
Whatever they're going to havesome discretion.
I think that's really okay,especially for those
environments where, like peopleare engaging with each other in
a nude way, there's no way toget around that.
Sol is maybe a different story.
Maybe there's room to work outthere, but, like you're saying,
with the lockdown, you knowthere are these instances that

(19:23):
come up that do really matterand you know, maybe it's f
marker, maybe it's prove you'reon hormones for three years.

Brianna (19:30):
Just something right, yeah, yeah, this is oh sorry,
yeah, well, just really quicklyto reply to that taff.
I mean I don't like me.
This is just old-fashioned orconservative of me.
But like this nancy mace thinghappened this week in hand to
god.
I was in a meeting and I wasout in public at the time and I
just like I'm sure y'all havehad this happen to you I just

(19:51):
needed to go cry.
I was so emotional and I wentto the ladies and I just sat
there for 15 minutes crying andthen I redid my makeup and
walked back out and did the restof the event.
Or you know, I don't know ify'all do high profile, like
really nice events at reallynice venues, but like the ladies
room there has like a couchthat you will go sit on,
socialize that's actually.

(20:12):
I've had importantconversations and meetings in
there for networking.
So I I don't like me.
It's just like this is myconservative upbringing.
I don't like this idea of likeabolishing these gendered spaces
, because I do think there's aculture in the ladies room of
like, you know, doing yourmakeup or having a casual

(20:33):
conversation.
That is cool.
I think that's a space womenshould have.

taftaj (20:37):
Well, I think that's fine.
I just don't think it needs tobe enforced by law and I don't
think trans women, you know, area big enough problem that we
necessarily need to get thestate involved in this.
I think it's okay if, likeoccasionally, sometimes in the
ladies restroom, some transwoman comes in.
That doesn't pass, sure, Ithink it's okay, and I don't
think it destroys the concept ofwomen's restrooms or the

(21:00):
ability for women to kind ofjust, you know, be women and
feel free in there, and that'sokay.
So, yeah, I think it's aboutlike scaling the policy to the
level of problem.
I don't think that there's likea demonstration of this, like
you know, epic issue, I agree.

Schyler (21:16):
This has been really tough like for me to parse out,
because I feel like I see bothsides of it and it's like I
don't think you can policepeople based on their like.
You know, you don't knowpeople's biological sex.
This is just a reality that alot of the gender criticals will
pretend doesn't exist.
But on the flip side, I see Idon't know, just unhinged videos

(21:40):
of I wouldn't call them transactivists, but I guess trans
women or non-binary, I'm notsure.
But this insistent, thisentitlement of nancy mace, I'm
gonna attack you physically, I'mgonna beat you up and I'm gonna
use women's spaces and I'm like, oh my god, I'm not, I'm not
gonna defend that, like that isobscene behavior to me.
And it's like I don't want myviewpoint of the right for some

(22:04):
trans women to use the women'sbase to be taken and used,
weaponized for people like that.
And it's like I don't know howto balance it.
So I'm like, how do we?
You know what's the striking?
Where's the middle ground here?

taftaj (22:17):
It's a good question.
I do also want to ask Kelly.

kelly (22:22):
Yeah, I said a while ago I said this like a year ago that
people after they're on hrt fora certain amount of time, or
when they get their licensechanged, if they're trans, they
have like a certain marker on itthat says that they're like I
don't know, officially trans ortransitioned enough to be able
to use like spaces, like thewomen's bathroom and then what
everyone say they compared tothe holocaust and like star or

(22:42):
something to like mark them Idon't even know it's like as
jews, I think.
I don't know.

Brianna (22:47):
I just maybe a little hyperbolic maybe a little, a
little, yeah I miss when peoplewould just go to the bathroom.

kelly (22:54):
That made sense.
But I feel like non-binarypeople kind of ruin that for us,
and also just trans women thatwant to just walk in when they
don't pass at all, or predatorymen that want to take advantage
of how woke and accepting thewhole community has become.
It's just, yeah, I don't know.
I want to sit up here and belike, oh yeah, like I, I totally
get where, like, biologicalwomen are coming from, but it's
like, at the end of the day,like I, regardless of, like,

(23:17):
what laws get passed, like Imean, take me to freaking prison
, but like I don't care if theypass a law in my state that says
trans women can't use thewomen's bathroom, I am not using
the men's room, yeah, same.

Brianna (23:26):
Like that puts my safety at risk so much more than
it would have me using thewomen's, you know, so it's I
don't know this is why I find sofrustrating is like y'all have
had experiences with guys thatget really scary when they find
out you're trans, right, like Imean like Actually, when they
find out you're trans, right,like, like I mean I've like

(23:47):
actually now, well, like when Iwas like I've never had it
happen to me in person, but likewhen I was dating, the way I
would do is, you know, beforedating them, so you'd meet guys
and then you would tell themright, yeah, I would always do
it by text or whatever.
And you know some of them wouldget really, really, really yelly
and aggressive in a reallyscary way.

(24:07):
So, like I I do think if you'reforcing trans women to use the
men's room like I'm sorry,there's some guys that are gonna
get really weird about thatthat will put us in danger but
they don't care if we're indanger, because it's not about
protecting trans women, it'sabout protecting biological
women and that's all, I agree,because they perceive what we

(24:28):
did as a cosmetic choice andthere's no changing their
opinion on that, so they're likeoh well, these are the
consequences of your actionswell, I want to be clear.
I think most people don't feelthat way.
I actually think most people,if you get down to it, they're
like it's not that surprisingthat there are some men that act
like women and look like womenand are just more comfortable
that way.
I don't think that is somethingthat's hard for most people to

(24:51):
understand.
I think these hardcore gendercriticals their brains are just
cooked and you can't talk tothem about this.

kelly (24:59):
It's tough, and when you're on social media
especially depending on how yourFor you page is is set up it's
easy to feel like they're themajority.

Schyler (25:06):
they're not, you know they're not it's tough, you know
, because I feel like I, I seewhere they're coming from and,
to be honest, like out of thiswhole ordeal, I've made a
priority of using a third space,if there's one available, just
out of respect for the struggle,and I understand that, like I'm
not the type of person who'sgonna virtue signal and post

(25:28):
that shit online, like I don'tbelieve in that, but I do see
where they're coming from andit's like, but at the end of the
day, it's like it feels likeit's making an issue out of
something that doesn't reallyexist, like I, because, in other
words, like I'll go to thewomen's restroom and it's zero,
no one cares, it's completely amute issue.
But I understand that I don'twant to send that signal, that

(25:50):
that's an expectation for everyperson who identifies as trans,
because there's so many thatdon't do anything or have beards
, and it's like I don't wantthat expectation to be like oh,
because I claim the genderidentity of female, I get, I'm
entitled to access in this space.

Brianna (26:07):
It's the entitlement that's the problem.
Is that not a real rest?

kelly (26:12):
then, though, to have to use a family restroom or like a
gender neutral one, because Iknow, when I go to like the
theater, pretty often there'slike a men and a women's
bathroom, and then there's thefamily bathroom, and like, maybe
within the past like six months, I felt like this pressure to
almost use that family restroomjust because of how many people
on twitter like tell me I'm likeinvading women's spaces just by

(26:33):
existing and using the women'sbathroom, but I almost feel like
, period of time, felt scared toeven enter the woman's bathroom
, and I felt like I was forcedto to go to this special space
and I don't know, I just I hatethat Like I have to feel that
way.
Does it not bother you at all?

Brianna (26:49):
Bothers me.

Schyler (26:51):
I mean, you know, in an ideal world, I wish it wasn't a
deal, I wish it wasn't an issue, but the fact is is that
there's so many bad actors or,like you know, I don't want to
say predatory identified males,but like that's sort of
predatory trans identified males, and I'm going to say that
because they're literally likemen, they look like men and

(27:12):
they're going in the women'srestroom and causing problems,
and that's what nancy, nancymace is weaponizing for her.
You know political points andher whole grift, and it's like,
and she targeted sarah mcbridewhich honestly, if you ask me,
doesn't have good optics,especially with the way sarah
mcbride responded, which go goodfor her, because she was backed
into a corner and like shetotally nailed it, I think, by

(27:34):
redirecting the focus on whatshe was actually elected for,
which, to you know, instillbetter policies and implement
solutions, not I thought shehandled it fairly well.

taftaj (27:44):
I agree I don't know much about her, but I also think
that, like she's a great avatarfor the trans community because
she passes really well, so,yeah, easy to rally behind what
they want.

Schyler (27:55):
Yes, I was like this is the reference.
I'm so glad for her being inthere.
But then I see like the otherside of it, like zoe zephyr,
who's like I'm the same as abiological woman oh my god, just
kill me.

Brianna (28:08):
I mean, you know, I, I, I don't think about this when I
use the bathroom.
Like you know, kelly, you saidsomething at tiktok a while back
that really, really resonatedwith me, which is like you can't
even remember what it's like tobe a man, because it's been so
long, or having those parts,which is 100 how I feel.
And you know, frankly, if I gotarrested for being in a

(28:29):
bathroom would be a nationalstory, right.
So, um, you know, like it's,it's, I'm gonna go about my life
, I'm gonna do my thing.
I'm not hurting anyone, I'm nottrying to make a political
statement.
I transitioned to blend in andto not make a big deal out of
being trans, and that's what I'mgoing to continue doing.
So you know, I think that what Ifind so frustrating about this

(28:54):
project by the gender criticalsis it is so many echoes of the
segregationist South that I grewup with.
Mississippi is a state that'sstill torn apart from that
struggle in the 1960s.
It did not end well for us.
So you know, it's like thesports issue.
You know, I understand that forsomeone like me.

(29:17):
I underwent male puberty andlike it volleyball.
I just have an advantage and donot need to be playing.
That that's fair.
I have no issue with thatwhatsoever.
But for something like pinball,you've got to give trans women
a space to integrate as womenand participate socially, or

(29:41):
that's just flat out bigotry,right?
So I like.
If you're talking aboutcompromises where everyone gets
what they want, I'm on boardwith you.
But if you're trying to expeltrans women from every single
space where there's not really avalid public policy concern, it
just comes across as bigotry tome.
Well, it brings up the point ofwhy they separate things like

(30:01):
chess too right, like with maleand females.

kelly (30:02):
Because they separate things like chess too right,
like with male and females,because they say that, like men
are just better at chessmentally, so I don't know if
they would say the same thingabout pinball.

Brianna (30:11):
It's just like they're like you have a male brain
technically, so you'd be betterat this than biological women it
is because men like in thesespaces, like they just dominate
and it's cool to have a space tohang out with other women.
That's literally it right.
Um, you know chess it's I Idon't play chess professionally,
but I would expect it's just aplace to hang with people that

(30:34):
are like you and and the truthis like I have a lot more in
common with most women than I domost guys like.
That's just true.
So I I just think, like thisproject to expel us from all
spaces, it's just it is it'sjust cruel it just makes me
think of the queen's gambit.

Schyler (30:52):
Yeah, did y'all see that?

taftaj (30:54):
again I didn't, I didn't uh well, I'm familiar with the
premise yeah, okay, yeah, I meanit's just that's.

Schyler (31:02):
What makes the movie noteworthy, though, is that this
biological female is beatingthese males at chess and it's
like this I guess game you knowthat really, you know leans into
structural patterns of thinkingof, like what the chess pieces
can do, and it's like I mean,the question is, is how far
reaching are biological effectsreally?

taftaj (31:24):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I mean in the sports arena inparticular, history of
segregation in sports.
It's really fascinating becauseearly on, when sports were
becoming desegregated, there wasan incentive among the white
players to avoid letting inblack players because there's

(31:46):
less competition, right, and ahuge reason why sports
eventually became raciallydesegregated was because teams
realized that if they let inblack players, they could have
these amazing players but reallycontributing to the team and
making the sport much moreinteresting to play.

(32:08):
And for baseball, prior toletting in the black players,
black players would have theirown games.
They would go around their ownstate or their own country or
United States and they wouldplay.
They attracted huge crowds butthey weren't fully integrated
and it was only when the sportsteams realized that they could
actually make a lot of moneythey started bringing in these

(32:28):
Black players.
But it was the white playersthemselves who didn't want to
invite those Black players inbecause it was competition and
they exerted a lot of power onthe sports teams, acting kind of
like a cartel.
So you know, there's potentialthat, like in chess, people
benefit in some way from itbeing less competitive, from

(32:50):
having fewer women involved init, having them in their own
world, regardless of, you know,whether or not there's like a
biological advantage certainlynot the case that, like chess
players, are posing a physicalharm to the women they're
playing with and at the end ofthe day, that's what it is.
For me, when it comes to therestrooms thing, like, is there
evidence of a physical dangerposed by trans women to cis

(33:14):
women when we are using anintegrated bathroom?
I don't think there is, or atthe very least, I think that
this kind of vulgar policy thatinvolves these bathroom bills is
not a good solution to reducethe relatively minor amount of
sexual assault and, you know,bad behavior that is occurring

(33:36):
in bathrooms from trans women tocis women.
I just think it's ridiculousand the only motivation that
makes sense for these sorts ofbills is just blatant.
You know transphobia, so youknow, call me a lib, but that's.

Brianna (33:51):
Fine lib, I think, to play devil's advocate for just a
minute.
Would the three of you notagree with me?
The trans community hascompletely failed to police our
bad actors Like we have just sathere silently as is expanded
and expanded, and expanded andyou don't need gender dysphoria

(34:13):
to be trans, and any kind ofmedical safeguarding is
oppression.
And it's really unsurprising tome why the trans movement
largely because people like mejust stayed silent and didn't
make a big deal out of beingtrans like has has grown to this
place where you do have peoplewith beards going into bathrooms

(34:35):
and filming videos about it.
Now I mean, don't you thinklike we are somewhat responsible
for this mess we're in?

Schyler (34:44):
Yes, I do.
But I also, but also.
But I mean that's the shortanswer.
But I think, like the strategyhas always been like either one
of two things to pretend itdidn't exist or didn't happen
and just flat out ignore it, orto try to go oh, they're not
actually trans, they're, they'renot trans.
We decide who's trans now,because you know, we, just you
know, we can't cope with thefact that someone that I don't

(35:06):
commits rape in a women's prisonis, you know, someone who's
also trans.
Like it's like no, that can'tbe the case.
And it's like I mean, yeah,there's some issues of policing
it, but I mean there's so, it'sso sporadic.
I mean there's all these placeswhere there's, there's all
these different people that youknow it's happening and it's

(35:27):
like, okay, so the the beardsand the trans woman thing, I
think, are you thinking of thatTik TOK that like kind of went
viral?
Where it was that?
Basically that guy who had abeer but he had boobs.
That's, that's one of them butit's not that specifically I've

(35:49):
seen this over and over and over.

Brianna (35:50):
Yeah, the gender queering.
There's an entitlement that ifyou just say you're a woman, you
belong in that space.
Now and this is part of thisbigger project that I suspect
y'all agree with me it's likethere's a.
The willingness to get alongwith people has been replaced in
the trans community by a thrillfrom daring people to disagree,

(36:13):
and then, if they disagree, itgets moralized instantly like
the Lily Tino video right,calling her sir.
Right, how dare you, how dareyou not understand this?
Calling her sir right, how dareyou, how dare you not
understand this?
Like there is a, a thrill fromgetting like seeing if people
are going to dare to call you onit.
That is just so unhelpful in myview.

taftaj (36:34):
Yeah, I've definitely seen that behavior.
You know, people sort ofrealize the power that they have
other over others and they'rewilling to exploit it.

kelly (36:42):
Yeah, definitely you know it's just like the definition
of just.
You know she was going to those.
I hate even saying she.
They were going to thoserestaurants looking for people
to misgender them, so they couldmake those videos and make
their money.
I doubt they're even trans andlike I hate to be like, oh, it's
just a vibe.
It is just a vibe, though likeI can just tell that this is
just a fetish, a fetish for himor her, whatever for that person

(37:04):
and it.
I don't believe they'reactually trans and I hate that.
Like there's no I I wish wejust had like a test, like a
blood test or something thatcould just like confirm if
someone was trans or not,because then it would just end
so much of this bullshit and Ijust pray that like one day we
get to a place where that ispossible, but I don't know if it
will ever get there well, Ithink that's the thing, kelly is

(37:26):
that like we don't have thetest and some trans people are
just gonna be assholes orthey're going to be predators,
right, and they're going toengage in bad behavior, or
they're going to be totallyinnocent, but they're just not
going to pass.

taftaj (37:42):
You know sufficiently everyone's standards and I think
everyone realizes, um, thatwhen we start implementing
standards like you have to passa certain level that suddenly
becomes very arbitrary.
It's very easy to fall on thewrong side of that, and I think
every trans one recognizes that.
Like on a bad day maybe, maybethey fall on the wrong side of

(38:04):
that.
Like I certainly feel that way,and that's that's scary, right.
And so I think that's why thetrans community tends to sort of
you know form rank on thesethings and say like we can't use
this standard because it canend up hurting people it's not
intended to.
In regard to the question aboutpredators, and you know to what

(38:25):
degree is it our responsibilityto police behavior I think that,
like any community, we justneed to acknowledge that, like
we can't police every transperson's behavior and sometimes
there's going to be bad actors,but that doesn't necessarily
need to indict us.
We can say, yeah, this personwas acting, you know, rapey, in

(38:48):
a public restroom.
That's not a trans thing,that's a weirdo person thing.
And there's weirdo people inevery community there's weirdo.
There's people who are in thegay community, who are
pedophiles right, I don't thinkthat that's an indictment on
normal gay men.
It's just not right.
And it's okay for gay men tosay that Like acknowledge, yes,

(39:08):
this exists, it's not me.

Brianna (39:11):
I mean I nearly got raped by a gay man when I was a
child.
That really sent me off coursefor a really long time.
But that's I mean I know that'snot all gay men.
So I would love to if I couldjust move the conversation along
.
I would love to have somecheery fun topic today.
So I wanted to change the topicto something I've wanted to ask

(39:35):
you for a long time, taft, whichis I want to hear about
everyone's hair routine, becauseI think you have gorgeous hair
and, kelly, I think when youtake a round brush, I assume to
it you have amazing hair sky.
Your hair always looks on point.
So I want to hear what everyonedoes with their hair routine.

taftaj (39:56):
It's a great question yes, okay, I went to the
dermatologist recently.
Um, I have this like rednessaround my nose and I walk in and
I'm waiting for her.
She finally comes in through,looks at me.
The first thing she says is howoften do you shower?
And I was like what?
And she's like, yeah, your hairis like incredibly greasy.

(40:19):
Oh no, all the dandruff in yourscalp, it's snowing in this.
Oh man, we'll edit this out,just so you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, people deserve to know.
The public, american people,are interested in taft's
dandruff.
I have always had likeincredibly thin hair.

(40:40):
My dad was 18 and my mother ohgod, love her.
Hopefully she doesn't, like youknow, feel like I'm airing her
dirty laundry.
She has also very thin hair.
It like doesn't really growpast.
Um, her like chin maybe.
It, like you know, lightlygrazes her shoulders.
I don't have great genetics forthis um, so it's um, it's an

(41:02):
uphill battle for any productsfor me.
Yeah, uh, really bad.

Brianna (41:07):
I think it's like the way you style it just really
works with your face shape andit always looks really pretty, I
think I've never noticed thatyour hair looks thin at all.

taftaj (41:15):
Yeah, that's good, yeah, it's um.
I mean it's like fairly.
You know, I don't know't haveany bald patches or whatever,
but it is just thin hair andI've definitely developed
strategies.
So if there's other people,other trans women who also have
thin hair and want tips, I havelots of them.

Brianna (41:39):
What's your top tip?
What's your top one?

taftaj (41:42):
Okay, so many things.
First of all, I've experimenteda lot with extensions.
Extensions are incredible,especially the weave-in
extensions.

Brianna (41:52):
If I was wealthier, can you walk me through this
actually, because I've heardabout extensions.
I've never done this.
Tell me what it is top tobottom.
Yeah, okay, yeah.

taftaj (42:00):
So they just get hair usually from Asian women and
they dye it blonde.
Yeah, okay, yeah, so they.
They just get hair usually fromlike asian women and they like
dye it blonde.
Yeah, this is the reality.
Asian women have like gorgeous,naturally long hair and lots of
them are willing to sell it, uh, so they get that and they can
like weave it in um to your hair.
One way to do that is they getthese little like brass or
copper clamps, um, and theyusually have like a silicone

(42:21):
lining, so they just like wrapstrands of hair in the clamps
and then you can sew in the hairyou buy to those clamps and it
looks like fully natural, it'sright there, like hair.
It lies smooth on your head.

Brianna (42:37):
So if you rub your hand through it like this, do you
hit the clamp Like can you dothat all the way through it?

taftaj (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, you can do that easily.
It's just like because it's atthe very base of your scalp and
I guess okay yeah, yeah, if youwatch it like normal hair you
can wash it like normal hair.
You can style it like normalhair.
Now I will say it's easier ifyou have thicker hair, a little

(43:03):
bit right right, like so,because I have thinner hair.
I think if I were to style itin certain ways you might see
the weft, if you know what tolook for.
Frankly, you know I hadextensions for so long and they
were never an issue.
They feel totally natural.
You wash them like normal.
They just become part of yourhair, because all the hair on

(43:25):
anyone's head is dead already.
There's like not really adifference between it and your
hair, except for the fact thatit's not growing so how long is
it?

Brianna (43:34):
yeah, I get for.
Do you have to get redone, oryeah?

taftaj (43:39):
yes, so usually you get the extensions for like a year,
maybe two years, if you liketake really good care of it.
Again, these are like niceextensions.
You can get cheaper extensionsthat just like clip in kind of
more like wig quality, but ifyou want like good extensions
they'll last like a year or twoand usually you get them moved

(44:00):
up every six to eight weeks soyour hair grows and you'll get
like an inch or so of like yournatural hair growing out and so
it'll move down.
That can like look slightly bad.
It can get like tangled, sothey just like they go in and
I've had this done multiple ways.
Sometimes with the clamps theycan just push them up.
It takes like 15 minutes andyou're like done, you go in the

(44:22):
next, you know couple months.
Sometimes they take them allout.
I will say tapings this istotally like taft autism,
extension hour.
Um, tapings like really messedup my hair.
So I recommend the weave um thetie-in.
But yeah, if I was, if I was,richer, I would have extensions

(44:43):
in forever.
Really, yes, okay.
So gender affirming care.
I have lots of criticism, butwhen I put in extensions I look
into the mirror every morning, Ifeel beautiful and I feel good
about myself and I'm just in amore positive mood and I feel

(45:05):
like I don't need to wear makeupbecause, you know, I just have
this like part of me that justlike I feel really proud of and
feel really nice about.
Yeah, yeah, it's like I likehave justified it to myself in
that way, where it's like is aform of kind of like gender
affirming care for me.
That really works.
Now, unfortunately, um, theyare quite expensive.

(45:30):
If you want them to be nice,how much?

kelly (45:31):
how much thousand dollars appointments too?

taftaj (45:34):
I'm sure it costs a lot yeah, oh, I think the place that
I was going to last it was likefour hundred dollars every two
months, that's nothing, that'sfine okay, I don't know.

Brianna (45:47):
I'd say nothing, okay, that's doable, that's doable,
yeah, well, again because I wantlike more volume here, because
I think like it's not that likeI have very, very thick hair,
but when I can attack a roundbrush and get like a lot of
volume here, that's what I thinkyou've got, that, like you know
, sixties gorgeous hair.

(46:09):
I think the problem is too flat.

taftaj (46:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, what do you guys want your hair to
look like Like?
This is sort of undergirdingthe whole discussion, cause I
like lots of volume, I do too.

Schyler (46:20):
Oh no, I do too.
Oh no, I do too.
Yeah, really, because yours isso straight.
No, I know Well, that's becausethat's just easy.
That's like low maintenance.
It's just like have it coloredand straight.

(46:41):
That's my thing is like I liketo get a balayage every like, at
least once a year, maybe twice.
But with balayage they'll justpaint the color onto your hair,
so it's like a little bit morenatural looking.
It grows out better.
That's why you see it like.
If you look at mine, it's likekind of darker up towards the
top but then it gets lighter andit's just because it's easier
to grow into.
And it's like it's just easierto not have to worry about

(47:02):
upkeep, whereas, like highlights, you would notice it very stark
when it starts growing out,where it like starts and stops
from the root.
So, like I'm low maintenancewhen it comes to volume because,
honestly, like to do, to getthe volume you would need to use
a lot of hairspray and probablya lot of curling, um, a lot of

(47:22):
product, like all of thosethings, and it's just like I
don't know.
I want to put like minimaleffort into my hair routine.
Um, so I usually just like yeah, I do like the basics to wash
it, put in some like conditioner, and then I'll like straighten
it a little bit um is because Inever had to like feel like I

(47:44):
was styling it for it to lookgood.

taftaj (47:45):
I just like wake up and I was like this looks amazing,
right, exactly.
I'm also like I was paying tolike never have to style
effectively what about you.

Brianna (47:57):
You, kelly, what do you do?

kelly (47:59):
Yeah, I spent a decade growing out my hair, so I don't
really tend to use hot tools onit so much I didn't for the
longest time.
Oh, I hate hot tools.
Yeah, I just do.
I use Tresemme, even thougheveryone says not to use that.
I use the moisturizing shampooand conditioner, but then my
secret is I always finish withlike, uh, the purple hask packet

(48:21):
which is like it's like amoisturizing mask for your hair.
I've been using it for yearsand I, just after I condition,
every time I wash my hair, Ileave it in there for like 10
minutes and I'll like shave mylegs and it just makes my hair
come out so soft and I do thislike every other day.
Um, and then recently I used tojust let it air dry for like
years, but then the past likeyear and a half, I got the Dyson

(48:42):
air straight.

Brianna (48:43):
I love it.
I love it the air wrap.
This is the greatest inventionever created.

kelly (48:48):
I bought the air wrap because I convinced myself I was
going to teach myself how tocurl my hair.
And I literally just bought itand I haven't touched it once.

Brianna (48:54):
Oh girl, I will blow up your phone with tips for it.
It's the greatest thing evermade, so.

kelly (49:00):
I don't know how to curl okay.

Brianna (49:03):
what makes it so okay?
So with my hair I have, like Idon't know when y'all get in the
shower, do you just like blowdry it and go, because if I do
that mine just ends up like thisfrizzy, stringy, messy thing.
So like I have to wash my hairevery like strategically every

(49:23):
two or three days, because itdoes take me then like 30 or 40
minutes to get it lookingprofessional enough to like do
meetings and stuff like that.
So the thing that the dyson airramp I love is the air
straightener is great to justlike get it straight so you can
then put product in it in a way.
But the Dyson air wrap is such abrilliant point to to like

(49:47):
start to understand how to styleyour hair, because it's so hard
to like get a round brush andlike get volume with your roots,
and the Dyson air ramp willgive you a decent result, even
like with no scale whatsoever,like it's just like let's suck
it up like hot and then coldblast it and you can get great

(50:08):
results from that.
That's literally what I didwith mine today, cause I haven't
washed it in five days and Ineeded to look good before the
show.
So it is just, is a miracletool.
If you are a professional woman, you should 100% have a Dyson
Airwrap.
It is just brilliant.

kelly (50:24):
And it's less damaging too.
It is Because it's not usinglike hot, hot heat, never.
It's not like a metal.

Brianna (50:30):
Yeah, never use a heating iron.
I literally threw mine awayafter that.
Yeah, does the ball.

taftaj (50:36):
Just have curls.

Brianna (50:38):
That's like the advantage yeah, it's so there
are a bunch of differentattachments for it.
Like there's a round, roundbrush attachment.
So if you're trying to likelift up your roots, you can put
like volumizing mousse there andthen use the round brush and
then get a lot of volume thatway.
There's another attachment thatlike it's this coriander effect
, so we'll like suck it up thereand hold it there and then

(51:01):
you'll get a curl from it.
So if you see this like gentlecurl that's falling.
That's just literally from fiveminutes.
With the Dyson, if you're likedoing a television hit, it's got
a flyaway attachment so you canlike use smoothing spray on it
and it will go through and likeblow all your loose ends
straight.
And there's a blow dryerattachment too.

(51:22):
So if you're like traveling,you don't want to pack a
separate blow dryer.
As good as the Dyson Supersonicis, I usually don't travel with
that because the blow dryerattachment with the Airwrap is
really good.
The trick is to really findproduct that you like.
Um, the dyson product is prettygood.
I like it.

(51:42):
It's super expensive.
Uh uh, dry bar their entireseries for a blowout.
That's really good.
But you can get a lot of likereally good stuff with just the
chi oil that you can find at anycS if you're really light on it
.
Interesting.
I'm sorry I'm so kinky aboutthis.

taftaj (52:02):
I love it.
Yeah, I think the hair scienceis fascinating, so yeah, what do
y'all use?

kelly (52:11):
for product.
I just use the Olaplex heatprotectant I think it's like
number 30 something.
I just use heat protectant.
I don't do hairspray oranything.
Really yeah.

Brianna (52:22):
What about y'all?

Schyler (52:23):
Yeah, now I use um, just head and shoulders, and
then um, uh.
The conditioner is the um, uh.
It's like, oh God, it's.
It's slipping me, I don't havethe brand, but it's just, it's
really great, I love it.
Um and then um, and then,honestly, that's it.
Like that's all I use.

Brianna (52:45):
And I'm so lucky Wow.

Schyler (52:48):
I mean, yeah, I have really thin hair, like tough,
but I don't have like struggleswith like the skin issues that
you were describing Um so like,like I don't know.
But for me, like the problem Ialways run into is that my hair
gets super greasy if I don'twash it like frequently enough.
So I shower, I mean I wash, Ishower every day, but I wash my

(53:08):
hair every other day.
Yeah, um to like keep it likeyeah, volume, so um, or else it
looks bad.
So I don't know.
I'm off to try the um, theDyson, what was that device
called that you were talkingabout?

Brianna (53:21):
The Dyson era.
That is amazing, oh my God.
Okay.

Schyler (53:25):
Oh, I need to check that out.
It sounds like really great.

kelly (53:29):
I have two of them, straightener though.

Brianna (53:38):
The air straight is great.
Be really I.
I am so suspicious of heatingirons.
I think they're so bad for yourhair.
Um, I do like the the airstraight quite a bit okay, air
straight, I'll check it out.

Schyler (53:51):
I mean, I've always used just a traditional, like
straight heater, um, straighthair heater like where it like
clamps down and you just, youknow, run over your hair.

kelly (54:00):
I never do it wet, though , because I know like that is
like really damaging, so Ialways like wait for it to dry
and then I'll use it well,that's what's so great about the
wraps is you can do it whileyour hair is like just when you
get out of the shower, when it'slike kind of halfway dry it's
like actually it works betterand it's like it makes it so
your hair can dry like faster,so you're not like waiting for
it to dry before you use thetool, but it's not as hot like

(54:22):
that's.

Schyler (54:22):
No, it does not damage it at all.

Brianna (54:25):
It does.
It's almost like having yourhair wet makes it so it works
better and it doesn't have to beas hot I mean it should be like
halfway dry, so I do like ahalf dry before I do the air
wrap, so it should be like kindof that stage okay, um, but
that's like when you're doing itthe next day.
If you can get like a littlewet with some product and we'll
get through it, that will reallywork well too.

(54:47):
The problem I have is like allthe product like really way,
because my hair is so thick,it's so hard to get volume, so
like I have to be so judiciousabout how much product I use,
because it'll just weigh it downand then I'll have no volume
through here.

taftaj (55:04):
Yeah, Interesting, I find that there's so many hair
myths it's very hard to sortthrough them.
Like I don't know if you'veheard about like the rosemary
oil thing no, what is this Okayabout?
Like the rosemary oil thing?
No, what is this okay?
It's like a very common tipthat people will give which is
like, add rosemary oil to yourscalp to like make your hair

(55:24):
grow faster and thicker.
I think really, it's um, it'ssupposed to extend the window
during which your hair isgrowing.
Uh, so that, like, more at anygiven time, there's more hairs
on your head because it takeslonger for them to fall out.
But it's based on like, reallylike shoddy science.
This paper that like has allthese sort of like obvious

(55:45):
errors.
So like there's text that'slike duplicated in places that
shouldn't be, and um, basically,it seems like there was maybe
like a paper mill or something,but it gets repeated all the
time, along with like dozens ofother things that people will
say which, like just you know,don't make sense, right, like,
no, the idea that, like, waterdamages your hair, like not

(56:07):
really good evidence for that,and so, and also, hair product
companies are like so kind of ohyes, I, um, I went to this like
salon.
The other day they were havinga drag show, which is like I
don't know another story in ofitself, but they're having a
drag show, slash party, slashsale for their products.

(56:30):
I went there and I got somethings, but like I really feel
like I was going out on a limb,like I was researching active
ingredients and like trying tofind like real evidence for
their effective you know theireffectiveness and I just like
could find nothing.
And it's so different from likeskincare, where it's like you

(56:50):
can get a retinol, you can getlike a moisturizer, niacinamide,
vitamin C there's like greatevidence for these things.
Hair care it's like evidence forthese things.
Hair care.
It's like take this plant fromlike india.
What do I do with that?
So, yeah, I just want more hairon my head.

Brianna (57:08):
Okay I'm gonna go get extensions.
I, I love this idea, do y'all?
How often do y'all go and get ablowout?
Because when I do a big tv hit,my favorite thing is going and
getting a blowout.
That's like and you know, Itried to explain this to my
husband one time and he's likewait, so you, you pay someone to
wash your hair for you.
And I'm like Frank, it's somuch more complicated than that.

(57:31):
I don't think I've ever done it.

taftaj (57:33):
You've never done it.
You've never done a blowoutKelly no.

Schyler (57:37):
Oh, you're missing out.

kelly (57:43):
I'm going to go kidnap you and bring you to.
Yeah, no, they're really fun.
What does it look like?
Like I don't really even know.

Brianna (57:54):
So they basically, well , you go there and they wash
your hair and they style it foryou and it like really really
looks good, like because it'sjust easier to do it if you're
on the outside.
So, um, and the the cool thingis because it's done so
professionally, it will last twoor three days.
It's just, you know, it's onlylike 60 or 70 dollars, like even
at the highest tier, so it'snot like a crazy luxury, but

(58:15):
sure is it's amazing oh, Ishould try it before like an
event or something.

Schyler (58:19):
Yeah, you should yeah, yeah I first had a blowout after
my first balayage and I was inlove with my hair.
I was obsessed and I was justtaking so many selfies like I
couldn't get enough of it.
I wanted it to last forever.
But I I was like, okay, I see,there's like all these steps and

(58:40):
processes that go into it andyou really that's why they like
charge you so much when you goto do it.
But it's fun to do.
Definitely, do it as like abirthday treat or something.

Brianna (58:49):
Yes.

Schyler (58:49):
It's great.

Brianna (58:50):
What is so cool today is there's so many YouTube
channels that will just teachyou how to do all this stuff.
Like there's this one I'll puther in the show notes but like
this woman that does likewhatever hair product you have,
like a Dyson, and she will walkyou through how to give yourself
like a professional blowout.

(59:10):
And one of the biggest tips Ifound is like the sectioning,
because this top up here youwant to section that and then
you get the ends and you sectionit there.
So this is down and then you gopiece by piece through your
hair with clips and like you'rereally focused on the roots.
Like there's so many liketechniques to teach you how to

(59:31):
do that stuff these days.
Like it's it's a miracle, it's,it's fantastic.
Yeah, I wish I was talentedenough.

kelly (59:38):
I can't even follow a basic hair curling tutorial, so
I doubt I'd be able to do ablowout yeah.

taftaj (59:44):
They make it look so easy, oh go ahead.
It's this thing where you can goonline and find makeup
tutorials and I'm done by themost beautiful woman on earth.
Of course, makeup looks good onyou, like, yeah, you did like
an eyeliner thing, but you're amodel.
So, like, is this going to beapplicable to me?
Usually not, and I feel thesame thing, feel the same way

(01:00:08):
with hairstyles where, like, Ican look online and someone has
like a beautiful, like braid intheir hair.
I would love to do that.
I know that if I have a braidon my hair, it's going to be
like this long and that's goingto be half the hair on my head
or not.
This long, this thick, it'sgonna be like this long, that's
gonna be all my hair.
So I just feel like, so likeI've never gotten into doing

(01:00:30):
hair because I realized, like,pretty much anything I do, it's
like whatever, it's fine.
Um, so, yeah, I find thisproblem with makeup tutorials
too, because it's like, whatever, it's fine.

Brianna (01:00:37):
So, yeah, I find this problem with makeup tutorials
too, because it's always done by, exactly like you said, models
that are in their 20s withperfect skin, and it's like I
want to see a makeup tutorial bysomeone in her 40s with, like,
decent skin.
Like, how do you do theseeyeliner tricks?
So you've got all the finelines around the edges of your
eyes.
It's just like you can put abackpack on me like Bane, filled

(01:01:01):
with Botox, and I'm still goingto have those.

Schyler (01:01:05):
No, brie, you nailed it Like.
It's so true, Like before.
It's funny.
Before I had FFS I would watchall of these tutorials on how to
do eyeliner for hooded eyes orhooded eyelids tutorials on how
to do eyeliner for hooded eyesor hooded eyelids and like
there's a couple of celebritiesthat have them.
But like, ultimately, what Ifound is like I just couldn't
get it to look good, like I Iwould put it on and it would be

(01:01:28):
fine, but it would smudgebecause I would blink and like I
had all these problems.
And then I got ffs and all theproblems went away and I was
like oh, wow, yeah, so much ofit has to do with, just like,
where you're starting from likeyou were saying if your skin is
good and it's like tight andthere's not all these wrinkles
and everything it's, it's justnot as hard.

(01:01:49):
What are you doing with?

Brianna (01:01:50):
my eyes today that looks so good sky oh yeah, I do
the same thing every time.

Schyler (01:01:57):
Like I have the same go-to regimen where I use the
maybelline.
Um liquid metallic eye eyelinerum, I love it so much, like it
dries pretty quickly and like Ijust put it on, like you know, I
don't know, it's just easy forme to do it.
The colors is it just one colorthing?
Oh yeah, when it comes to theeyeshadow, I use color pop.

(01:02:18):
I don't know if y'all know Idon't know this yeah um, I, I
love them, I think they'rethey're awesome.
But yeah, I just start, I startwith a light, a light layer and
then I do like a shimmer andthen I put more definition for
like darker colors and I justlike do them to the contour of
the like eye and I just brush itout and I blend it and then I
do one final layer of eyeliner.
Um, and that's really all Ihave to do, and it pops out like

(01:02:41):
this and I'm like all right,that's good enough for me.
Um, but there will be timeswhere I'll do more blended and
I'll do like more of a smoky eyeand because I really, I really
love like the dark, like I justlove making the eyes pop out and
adding like the contrast thatthe dark is, it's like smoky
eyes, just the way to go for ittotally.

taftaj (01:03:02):
I mean, I had a similar experience with you where it's
like early on in transition,putting on makeup, it was like
I'd look in the mirror and I'dbe like, oh okay, so I put like
a little bit of makeup on a facethat I don't really like and so
, yeah, I didn't really likedoing makeup then and it feels
like, as I've gotten morecomfortable with myself, I've

(01:03:24):
found that much more enjoyable.
And so there's kind of in thislike reversal where, like you
know, maybe I don't super likestyling my hair, but then when I
get extensions, I'm like, yes,I'm gonna put put in braids.
So it's tough.
I think that you have to kindof love yourself first.
Yeah, I agree, it's hardbecause people chase these.

(01:03:45):
You know, they want to lookbeautiful, they put on lots of
makeup, but you have to feelbeautiful first.

Brianna (01:03:53):
I think it's hard because I mean, you know, like
sometimes you do still see thatguy looking back at you in the
mirror, right, and it's mylowest days, like I know it's
not true, but I sometimes feelthat way.
Do you know what I mean?
So I think it's like thislifelong error that's just never
going to go away, no matterwhat away, no matter what.

taftaj (01:04:21):
Yeah, so much of I don't know, but I've had lots of
growth there as well, much morecomfortable with myself.
And you know, on this trip I'vebeen taking a lot more photos
myself and I've been smiling.
I feel like I've I've learnedto smile in photos.
Um, yeah, because from the timethat I was like 14 to maybe
like 20 years old, there'salmost no photos of me, not with

(01:04:41):
friends, not with family.
I'd go to Christmas dinners oryou know, I'd get a photo taken
with my family and it woulddestroy my day, it would ruin it
and I would be depressed forlike the rest of the week.
And I have slowly realized thatI'm able to like accept how I
look.
Maybe it's not how I'd want to,but like it's okay and it's

(01:05:03):
worth it to have those memories.
So now I'm building those forthe first time in my life, even
though I'm not like the model Iwant to be.

Brianna (01:05:11):
I love that.
I think this is just being awoman.
To be honest, I think all womenfeel this way.

Schyler (01:05:18):
Yeah, definitely All right.
So we're thrilled today to havea special guest, benjamin Ryan.
He's an independent journalistwho focuses on health care,
public health and science.
He's written for a lot of majoroutlets, such as the New York
Times, the Guardian and NBC News, and has spent a lot of years

(01:05:39):
reporting on, I believe, hiv andits impact, as well as gender
medicine.
So, benjamin, welcome toDollcast.
We're very excited to have youhere today.

ben ryan (01:05:49):
Great to be here, ladies.

Brianna (01:05:51):
We're so excited.
Oh my God, yeah.
So I wanted to start off andsay just offer an apology,
because I feel like transTwitter is so mean to you, I
feel like you're therepresentative of, had to go and
like apologize for them.
So that's kind of how I feel.
You know, the reason I likeyour work is I think if I made a

(01:06:24):
list of the reporters that Ithink are doing like the best
job of just straight down themiddle reporting, you would 100%
be on that list.
And I think it is sofrustrating and it shows the the
frankly, the intellectualbankruptcy of some people on our
side that they spend so muchtime attacking you.

(01:06:44):
I mean, how does that?
How does that make you feel?

ben ryan (01:06:48):
I mean, I know what my principles are, you know and I
know where I stand and it'sreally nice when people reflect
back to me exactly what they are.
You know, you're spot on andthat is.
You know my goal is to be ascience journalist.
You know, you're spot on andthat is.
My goal is to be a sciencejournalist, and that you know.
Coming from the HIV reportingwhich I've done since the
beginning of my career in theearly 2000s, I started to see,
indeed, when advocacy seeks intopublic health, sometimes their

(01:07:09):
needs are aligned but sometimesthey conflict.
So you know it's my job not toparse those and not to just lean
on the side of whatever somenon-profit might think I should
say, and so it is verybothersome to me in journalism
as a whole.
There was a piece that came outof the Guardian this week that
was focusing really intently onthe expert witnesses that

(01:07:30):
testified in a lot of thesecases about gender medicine ban
for kids, and it was reallyscrutinizing how a lot of judges
thought these guys were bunkand none of them had treated any
trans people, or a lot of themhadn't.
And it was extremelyfrustrating to me for two
reasons.
One, the reason this articlewas running was because it was
suggesting that if the SupremeCourt validates the six district

(01:07:51):
court's decision that theTennessee ban of gender
affirming care for kids isconstitutional, that this would
be in effect validating all ofthese expert witnesses that they
don't like.
But the case doesn't evenreally hinge on that.
For one thing and two, I'veread a lot of the briefs which I
don't think this reporter hasconcerning this case and they're

(01:08:11):
really not about the strengthof the science.
They're more about legalquestions to do with whether
transgender kids or kids withgender euphoria receiving these
treatments count as a class ifit's sex-based discrimination or
if transgender kids count aswhat's called a quasi-suspect
class under the law, justifyinggreater scrutiny of the law
whether it discriminates.
So it was just sort of anexcuse to run these guys through

(01:08:33):
the mill, you know, put themthrough the meat grinder and
criticize them.
But if you read the briefs theydon't really refer much to the
expert witnesses statements.
They refer to the fact that inEurope and the United Kingdom
and the cast review that all ofthese health authorities have
brought up gender affirming carefor kids under scrutiny and
questioned.
You know whether the science isstrong and so, and you can see,

(01:08:55):
there's a James Cantor is a sexresearcher in Canada.
He's been one of thesewitnesses who've gone and
testified on behalf of a lot ofthe bands, and you'll see, in an
email that got put online byJesse Singel, what James Cantor
said to the Guardian journalists.
He said you know all of the.
You know it's.
All of these other institutionshave come to this conclusion
about the strength of thescience.
Other institutions have come tothis conclusion about the

(01:09:17):
strength of the science.
The guardian guy misquoted himand said that he said this, not
all these institutions.
And so you see how the sausageis made.
You see they, they want todemonize a certain perspective,
and there's this concept thatthe, the right or whatever is
right coded is always incorrectabout science.
In this house, we believe inscience.
Sometimes, however, however,the right is correct, and I

(01:09:38):
don't think that people on theleft can really reconcile with
that very well.

Brianna (01:09:42):
Sure.
Well, what I want to do is likethere are two conversations we
can have today.
I'm sure we can get into themeat of all of your reporting,
which I would love to do, Ithink, for right now I just want
to start with a more basicquestion, which is why is it so
hard for us structurally to havea nuanced conversation about

(01:10:02):
this?
Because, from my perception, Ithink there are two dueling
cults here.
I think you've got, you know,sky, what I think you've brought
me around on calling genderideology.
You know this kind of extremisttrans view.
Let's abolish gender self ID,abolish medical standards
without science to justify it.
Like, open up all care asquickly as possible, don't look

(01:10:25):
at any of the downsides.
That's kind of the genderideology side.
I think.
On the other, you have what Icould very charitably call the
gender critical side, which isreally a it's a harassment cult
that does have the seed of validpublic policy objection there.
Like we do need a system forhow, you know, trans women use
the restroom.

(01:10:45):
That is a reasonable thing tohave a conversation about, but
all too often, like I'veprobably gotten a thousand
comments about my vagina in thelast you know day on, which is
just weird and gross andinappropriate, which is what
this devolves into.
So like from your perspective.
Like what are the structuralbarriers that you see for

(01:11:06):
someone like you going out andjust giving a straight reporting
?
Like here's what the clinicsare doing, here's what the times
are, here's what the criteriaare, here's who's funding it.
Here's the information.
So, so as citizens, we can makea valid, like public policy
choice here.
How can we like, move away fromthe extremes and like and get
to the meat of a substantiveconversation.

(01:11:28):
What do you need from thepublic to be able to do your
work with less bullshit?
I think?

ben ryan (01:11:33):
I would say I think that yeah, two major factors I
think have enforced extremeopinions rising to the top, and
one is gerrymandering withincongressional districts so it
makes it much harder for someonewho doesn't have an extreme
opinion to the left or right towin a primary, because all you
need to do is win a primary.
So I think that's a big part ofthe problem.
I think that social mediaobviously, as we all know, the

(01:11:55):
algorithm favors rage anddivision, and so that gets
people going and gets peopleengaged.
Those apps are there to keepyou engaged.
Twitter pays people who havelarge followings based on
engagement, so there's a lot ofincentives in there.
So, and then more specifically,glad, in particular, hrc,
lambda, legal, aclu these big,big nonprofit groups, some of

(01:12:16):
which are very specificallyLGBTQ, and then ACLU, of course,
has that as a division.
They're not out there lookingfor nuance, and I was listening
the other day to Ezra Klein'spodcast and he was talking with
some expert about this idea thatthe Democratic Party, that a
lot of the local bosses, a lotof that work that used to be
more within the actualdemocratic structure, has been

(01:12:37):
outsourced to nonprofits.
So I think that GLAAD is reallyeffectively speaking for the
Democratic Party.
And when people puzzle over thisidea, what is this?
Kamala Harris never mentionedtrans people when she was out
there campaigning during thosehundred days that she was on the
trail and that's true, and thenshe was asked about it a couple
of times and she ev, you know,with that idea of like.

(01:12:58):
I'll just follow the law.
But what people I think arereacting to is a larger
structure.
Glad is an extremistorganization.
When it comes to trans issuesit's extremely inflexible, and
then the way that has come afterthe new york times and in other
institutions, and me inparticular, um really is quite
illiberal and it suppresses aneven discussion of this.

(01:13:19):
The idea that anyone, much lessa major nonprofit institution
that rakes in millions ofdollars a year, should park a
truck outside of a major newsorganization, as GLAAD did, with
a sign that says the science issettled about anything, is
completely amazing to me.
So I have a pretty uniqueposition, in fact, hey.

Brianna (01:13:39):
Hey Taff welcome position.
Hey, welcome back.

ben ryan (01:13:42):
I started early.
It was two years ago that Ireally started getting invested
in the trans kids issue andstarted reading about it all the
time, and so I spent a lot oflast year trying to find left,
left leaning, liberalinstitutions, media institutions
to take my work, and they allsaid no, and the bottom line is
they were all too afraid to.
And what they're afraid of?

(01:14:02):
Afraid of glad, afraid oftwitter, the afraid of the
pushback.
These people don't want to losetheir jobs, and especially in a
time when the media isshrinking their layoffs.
People become more risk averse,and a lot of what editors are
thinking when they decidewhether or not to greenlight an
article is we must protect theinstitution of our publication
above all else.
So it makes for less courage inproducing risky journalism.

Brianna (01:14:27):
I hear you, though, but I mean don't you think there's
a criticism for the other sideas well?
I mean there is.
I know you have faced all kindsof harassment just for like
gendering me correctly, I knowyou have faced all kinds of
harassment just for likegendering me correctly yeah, my
genderism, my driver's license.
I do not see the same structuralincentives for the.
You know generously callingthem the gender critical
movement.

(01:14:47):
There's a real mission, I feel,to amplify science Like.
Here's a really good example.
You know you're seeing AGP usedas a shorthand for degenerate.
that cannot transition well andnever belongs in a woman's space
right exactly, and you know,like I'm not going to say like

(01:15:07):
agp does not have a difficultroad at times, but you know, I
think it's just inaccurate tosay these are not people that
need gender affirming care, likea lot of, you know, other trans
people do.

ben ryan (01:15:17):
So I do not see that project working both ways
absolutely you know, and it's abig question of how much of the
right when it comes to the banson gender transition treatment
for kids, how much of that isauthentic and a real belief that
they are genuinely protectingchildren, and how much of that
is cynical.
You know, after gay marriagehas passed, all of those efforts

(01:15:37):
to use that as a wedge issuedied sometime past.
Oh, here's another great,another great issue that we can
use to rally the base.
Jeremy Peters wrote a goodstory about this in the New York
Times last year.
You know the way they talkabout it isn't necessarily
entirely in a way that you wouldconsider pejorative or

(01:15:58):
demeaning.
It really is centered on theidea of protecting children from
something that they dosincerely believe is harmful and
that they believe that thescience backs them up.
Sure, but yes, I think,especially in England, the TERFs
, trans exclusionary radicalfeminists.
You know their movement isremarkably inflexible, but one

(01:16:18):
can argue that that is beingprovoked from the left.

Schyler (01:16:21):
These people, they were more flexible before, but
they've been pushed so much thatit has radicalized them yeah, I
don't know, I feel I feel likethere's like two extremes here,
like we've been talking about,but if I feel like what really?
what really bothers me is reallythe failures of w path, which I
feel like you've really coveredand it's like undermines our

(01:16:41):
credibility from the standpointof like, oh yeah, transition can
help some people, but when youhave, like this approach that
you can't challenge them and youhave to always like, meet in
the middle and you have peoplein situations that there's clear
mental health issues going onand you're still being like,
okay, how can we get them hrtand get them down this pathway?
It's like, why are you evenconsidering the pathway when you

(01:17:03):
could diagnose and treat theseother conditions first?
Yeah, and possibly rule thatout, like it's.

ben ryan (01:17:09):
I felt like your recent article I think it was
like the w path audio leak orsomething like that yeah yeah,
it was so eye-opening to this,it was interesting so what she's
referring to is somebody leakedme a video from the world
professional association fortransgender health, or wfh,
recent conference in lisbon andit was just basically just a
video meeting like we're havingnow, and it was a group of

(01:17:31):
practitioners from a genderclinic in connecticut and they
were they were giving casestudies of three different cases
of what they consider the morequote, unquote, nuanced, which
was a euphemism that they wereusing for not too clear cut
cases of people who are mostdefinitely gender dysphoric and
transgender and would definitelybe helped by transitioning
medications.

(01:17:52):
And so you see them dancingaround it and just never wanting
to admit that they were eventhinking of saying no to people.
You know, one guy was onanti-psychotic medication.
Another guy was by gender andhadn't told their wife that they
had two genders and wantedbreasts, and you know this was
obviously going to create aserious problem at home that

(01:18:12):
maybe this person should workout before you know, looking
into getting breast implants andtaking estrogen.
So it was very interesting tosay that they they call
themselves partners on thisperson's gender journey.
And the real question isthere's this history in medicine
of the doctor being verypaternalistic.
So there's been a shift inrecent years to try to move that
more towards shared decisionmaking.

(01:18:34):
But the fact of the matter isthe doctor has the authority and
they have the prescription pad,so it's not an even balance,
but they're trying to even itout.
But this is suggesting almostthat the patient is really
leading the way and the doctoris really in the service economy
.
So is there a role and I knowthat you've spoken a lot about
this that you really support?
Brianna, the classic gatekeepingthat has fallen away in recent

(01:18:57):
years.
Poor Brianna, the classicgatekeeping that has fallen away
in recent years, like FlorenceAshley, you know, the law expert
at the University of Alberta,is really opposed to and says
it's harmful.
And so that's the real debateof what role does gatekeeping
have and what role does thescience have in telling us
whether the gatekeeping ishelpful or not?
And there are so manyunanswered questions, in
particular about kids these days.

Brianna (01:19:17):
Well, I know, ben, this is where I'm really torn on
this.
So, like when I transitioned,um, I got out of rehab, so, like
the hard drugs I was using Iwas off of that.
I was still drinking too much,right?
Like just trying to get thesethoughts of being a woman out of
my head, right?
Um, I wouldn't say I haddepression, but I was really

(01:19:37):
like severe social anxiety, likeI had comorbidities right now,
the instant, the instant, theinstant, literally, that I got
on hrt.
Like I have not felt I need todrink a single day since.
Completely, I could go outright now and go on a three-week
bender and just stop instantly.
Like I don't the core cause forlike that addiction, that

(01:20:00):
social anxiety, is treated right.
So I think it's a fine line thatyou have to draw with the
doctor, like where does, do youknow what I mean?
At what point is thecomorbidity driven by gender
dysphoria?
Or to what point do you need tofix it first?
Right, I think like it's reallytricky.
But I also see it the other way.

(01:20:20):
Like there's a discussion likelegitimately happening on my
twitter yesterday with peopletalking like what, some people
are poor.
You think you're expecting togo on hrt when that's 30 a month
, I'm like sweetheart, liketransition is the most expensive
thing you're ever going to doin your life.
If you think it's only going tocost you 30, if you can't swing
$30 a month, you are not goingto have a successful time.

Schyler (01:20:44):
It's because there's this prevailing notion that it's
a right to transition Right andit's that is like the.
I don't want to say it's likethe toxic source, but that's
what's infiltrating.
That's the essence of genderideology.
That's working its way in wpath where they're afraid to.
It's funny because they'reconscious too.
They're like we're not justhere to hand out hormones, we're
here to help get an assessmenton the drivers, and like they'll

(01:21:08):
play the language.
But at the end of the day, yeah, they're.
They're too afraid to be seenas a gatekeeper and so they're
going to prescribe themedication, even if it's not a a
good fit, and there's othersolutions that could be had.
And it's like the problems rundeep and I think it has a lot to
do with this ideology.

taftaj (01:21:24):
The reason why trans women ought to be allowed to
play in women's sports isbecause they have a fundamental
medical need to transition, andit's not just like a lifestyle
thing, it's not just like acosmetic thing.

(01:21:46):
And we have pushed this argumentso far that now there's a real
feeling within progressivecircles, which is maybe somewhat
justified, that if you tellsomeone like, oh you know, you
maybe shouldn't transition oryou don't have a medical need we
have these like nuanced caseswhere there isn't clear history
of, like long-term genderdysphoria the political

(01:22:13):
apparatus built up around thathas basically made it so what
you're telling someone is youknow you have no political right
to engage with this gender andno one needs to respect you
because you know everyone elsehas this medical reason and you
maybe don't.
I really think that the solutionhere is to move towards a model

(01:22:33):
which bases rights on freedomand self-expression and to
enable people to expressthemselves freely, but then also
with that you have to acceptcertain consequences.
Like maybe not everyone wantsto gender you correctly, maybe
you know you don't get access towomen's sports teams.
Like you have to accept thattrade-off and we've just pushed

(01:22:55):
so far in one direction which ismaybe acceptable for some
people.
You know, science, I think, isevolving on this, um, but it's
so clear that we've just, youknow, we've reached the end of
the road.
A little bit on the politicalcapital around this well, sorry,
I just wanted to.

kelly (01:23:14):
I was gonna say I want to hear from kelly, so go ahead
well, I hear you guys keepbringing up the science and it's
just like you know I don'treally know like what that is,
because it seems like a lot oflike the, the signs of gender
dysphoria, and diagnosingsomeone with that is all based
off of things you say andfeelings.
I just don't really feel likeit's advanced that much at all.
To me it's kind of like how doyou prove someone's gay?

Schyler (01:23:35):
you know you can't really do that, it's just based
off of someone saying well, I'mattracted to this.

kelly (01:23:39):
So I mean, I feel like anyone could go and follow the W
path and like, say the rightthings in order to get that
diagnosis, and I think that'sand they do.
They look up online, it's verycommon.

Brianna (01:23:49):
Yeah, I think, when my parents called me making out
with that boy when I was 12.
That was pretty sad.

taftaj (01:23:57):
Yeah, well, there are revealed preferences, right,
like people who spend tens ofthousands of dollars on surgery.
You know it's a pretty goodindicator that they really value
this thing.
And I mean ask like David Hume,he would say like you can't
prove anything, right, like it'slike maybe the sun will rise

(01:24:17):
tomorrow, maybe not.
You know, you're getting tolike a real problem, which is
it's very hard to tell what'sgoing on actually in someone's
head.
You know, how do I knowsomeone's conscious, how do I
know they see the same colors asme?
Totally legitimate.
But you know, I think inmedicine we generally accept
that, like you can diagnosedepression, you can tell, you
know, if someone has gottenbetter by taking an ssri.

(01:24:40):
I mean, maybe it's not like thehighest, you know, it's not
like physics level of evidence,but I think that there are
validated measures.

ben ryan (01:24:50):
Yeah, measuring yeah, right, yeah, I totally agree,
totally brianna, you talked alot about how the criteria in
the DSM for diagnosingcongenital dysphoria has
expanded.
The bar has been lowered.

Brianna (01:25:03):
Expanded is a nice word .
It's a word to the thing.
I think it's unshrunkenactually.

taftaj (01:25:11):
I don't think it's necessarily a problem if people
are getting easy access to HRT,but the problem is that the
doctors are taking a lot ofresponsibility for that right.
So by prescribing it and makingit this thing where, like, we
expect the doctor to validatethe gender dysphoria in order to
give out the prescription, youknow, suddenly we're not
treating it like cosmeticsurgery.

(01:25:33):
Suddenly we're treating it asthe doctor is actually staking
like a claim that this person isgoing to.
This person needs thismedication to improve in mental
health and they need to beintegrated in society as a woman
in order to feel positively, tobe, to live a successful life,
which maybe that's notnecessarily true for all cases.

(01:25:53):
And so you know, I think thislevel lower level of evidential
standard that's okay, but weneed to be really honest if we
are lowering that and say like,okay, you know, freedom, freedom
to control your body but likemaybe that doesn't extend into
other people's freedom but alsodifferentiating between the
ethics of an adult, somebodywho's 20s, let's say, who has

(01:26:15):
been for many, many years versusa child.

ben ryan (01:26:19):
You know who hasn't even done puberty yet hasn't had
that kind of sexual awakeningthat might help them reconcile
with gender versus sexualidentity.
If there's a push and pull thereand I think a lot of people
look at this fairlysimplistically, you know m
gesson had this quite famous,now op-ed in the new york Times
this week in which they arguedessentially, which is they had

(01:26:39):
also said to David Revinick inthe New Yorker interview last
year that kids make all kinds ofdecisions, and I think that
that's a real false equivalence.
And in the New Yorker they referto things like pointing the
ROTC or taking a lot of debt forschool, and Gessen was trying

(01:27:15):
to argue essentially that theoptions for what has been long
considered a human right, giventhe mistakes that have remained
in the eugenics movement andsterilizing the quote unquote,
mentally incompetent, that sortof thing.
We as a society have concludedthis based on past errors, but
so much of the.
We must repair the past effortsthat are being undertaken by
the people who one could call agender ideologist is we must not

(01:27:38):
do to trans people what we didto the gays, and I think that's
also fairly simplistic and Ithink that you know gender
identity, I think, is harder tomake sense of and wrap your head
around, than then, at least forfor guys, for whether they're
gay or not, because right thereis a good test of whether you're
gay and it happens to beattached to your body.

Schyler (01:27:56):
I mean what we were saying earlier, that there's no
one way to measure withconfidence that someone is going
to be happy with a transgender.
Yeah, you know with thatpathway.

taftaj (01:28:07):
Yes, it's very hard to remove all false positives.

ben ryan (01:28:11):
Yeah, I mean Kelly.
I'd really like to hear some ofyour thoughts, experiences, how
this is for you, having beenthrough this at a young age and,
as I gather, you're very happywith having done it at a young
age.
So how does that influence yourperception of whether this is a
good idea for other youngpeople?

kelly (01:28:29):
It's a tough question for me, just because I like to
think I'm one of the lucky ones,just because I've seen so many
people that did transition at ayoung age, that did regret it,
but but then at the same time,like you know, people on the far
left will present me withquote-unquote evidence, which
I'm not sure how valid it is ornot, that you know, the majority
of people who did transition askids are like me.
They don't have regrets.
But you know, it's justnowadays like you can't believe

(01:28:52):
any study, you see, because it'sjust like you never know if
it's biased or not.
You know, um, I I kind ofdisagree with with taff a little
bit when she says hrt shouldn'tbe gatekept, because I I do
feel like it's just costumery,it's not what I said well, yeah,
I'm okay with less gatekeeping,as long as we.
You know, responsibility fallson the right people yeah, I

(01:29:15):
don't, yeah, go ahead I I justkind of feel like you guys are
so like oh well, adults shouldhave access to it, but kids like
shouldn't.
And that's like a lot ofpeople's hard line, at least
when I see a lot of right-wingextremist talk on twitter.
But to me it's like I just kindof feel like for everybody,
regardless if you transition at15, like I did, or if you're
transitioning at like 50, itshould just be like a really

(01:29:36):
slow, hard process to to evenstart a medical transition, just
because I I don't feel likeit's an easy decision for anyone
at any age.
It's such a big.

ben ryan (01:29:45):
Thing what about the fact that puberty is oncoming
and you're having?
You're trying to beat that?
You know?
Yeah, doesn't that inevitablyrush the decision.

kelly (01:29:52):
That's, that's the conundrum yeah, sometimes I
think I want.
I wonder if maybe transition orif I just let my puberty
continue further.
Who's to say?
Maybe I wouldn't have wanted totransition and testosterone
would have taken over?
I don't know the answer to thatquestion, but I know that I'm
happy now and I know that I lovemy life this way.
But who's to say if my parentswere more conservative and they
didn't allow that to take place,if I wouldn't have grown out of

(01:30:14):
it?

Schyler (01:30:16):
I mean, before affirmation therapy took the
stage, it was a watchful waitingapproach.
I mean that's what Ken Zuckerand his clinic up in Toronto did
for so long until activistsbasically looked for a case
where you know he wasn'ttransitioning people,
transitioning kids and you know,jumped on that and then got
them shut down.
But that was sort of thestandard, like we didn't have to

(01:30:38):
make it illegal in like areasto do this.
It was just a very thorough,regimented approach based on
time, because there's no goodcriteria.
We need the time component tosort of help assess that
persistent motivation.
And I think by the time youreach adults it's a little bit
different.
But I do think that you knowthe goal of good therapy and

(01:31:00):
medicine shouldn't be to justaffirm a patient's feelings.
It should be to gentlychallenge them, explore them and
help them reach the conclusionsof what they're.
You know what's going to bestbenefit them term gender
affirming care is.

ben ryan (01:31:14):
It presumes that the care is affirming the correct
gender, and so it's baked in.
It has baked in a bias, andthen you'll hear people try to
push their words around.
Oh well, afterwards they didn'tdetransition, they
retransitioned, and we're stillaffirming their gender, because
now their gender is justsomething else.
Well, that would be nice ifthere were entire structure and
an insurance system in place tohelp detransitioners, which

(01:31:37):
there isn't, but I think that'sa very cynical misuse of
language, and so that's that'swhy I tend to use gender
transition treatment, which Ifeel is a more neutral term
that's something that'simportant to me.
Um, as a journalist, I don'tlike the term sex assigned at
birth, because I feel it'sscientifically inaccurate, and I
think it's important todifferentiate between sex and

(01:31:57):
gender, because is not what allof you ladies have done, as I
gather, by going on hrt workingagainst your natal sex, that's
part of the process.
To deny that it's just sort ofdeny what you're actually doing,
and I think that that's perfect.

Brianna (01:32:12):
I do feel like I have to say it didn't work out for me
very well either.
I was not exactly a duke fromgi joe, like I didn't really
take with that super well.

ben ryan (01:32:24):
But I think that your sex is one thing, but your
gender is another that's totallyfair.

Brianna (01:32:28):
I I do feel like I just want to.
I want to give just a littlebit of pushback on what y'all
are saying, because I feel like,out of everyone here, I'm the
only one that's seen the otherside of the book, like what
happens when you don't getgender affirming care.
And I made the decision tostart transitioning when I was
25 and I can tell you what I sawfrom the people that were, you
know, 30, 40, 50 and on up inthe trans community that chose

(01:32:53):
not to transition.
There was a very, very largecohort of fetishistic
cross-dressers.
You know they were universallymarried and you know they had
some really scary attitudestowards women.
I'm just going to be honest.
You had the closet cases.
These are AGPs that you knowjust basically suppressed it

(01:33:14):
their whole life.
They would then spend all theirtime online in these
communities trying to suppressthis.
They had a male persona andthey had, like this real
melancholy inside of them fromlike suppressing this side of
themselves all of the time, andthey had a lot of excuses.
I cannot do this for mychildren or my wife.
All of them were into women andI cannot think of a single

(01:33:38):
person I've ever met in myentire life that is, into men in
any kind of serious way and didnot transition and regretted it
in any way.
I've just I've literally neverrun across that.
So it's like I'm not trying tobelittle anyone's feelings here.
I'm just saying, like Kelly,you're a fairly feminine woman,

(01:34:00):
like you just are, and I thinkif like I don't know, I think
like I'm open to giving peopletime to figure this stuff out.
But one of the reasons I reallylike the gender affirming care
model or the old school way ofdoing things is at every step it
requires something from thepatient, like getting buy-in,
getting agency, and then itgives you something in return.

(01:34:24):
You commit to three months oftherapy, then you get hormones,
you get on hormones.
You can then go to a doctor,take that agency, get your
endocrinology check, see iflevels are in the right way.
Then you can start RLE, do RLE,get a full-time job, then you
can start looking atvaginoplasty.
So I think like this issomething I would really love to

(01:34:47):
stress to all of y'all is Ireally thought like you've got
to understand it was an eyeblink ago that insurance did not
cover anything.
Like I paid for every dime oftransition myself and I always
thought the moment Obamacarecovered vaginoplasty and FFS and
hormones, I thought that wouldjust be utopia for trans people

(01:35:10):
and I thought we would all endup well adjusted.
It's clearly not happened and Ithink about this all the time.
Why is the trans community haveso much more opportunity to go
live better lives than everbefore Anything I ever dreamed
of in my whole life?
But we are more chaotic andmore psychologically unhealthy

(01:35:30):
and more miserable than everbefore and the only answer I can
come to is we are lettingpeople in that are not served by
these treatments like I can'tthink of anything else because
the people like you, sky, youhave this stuff paid for in a

(01:35:51):
way I didn't and like you turnedout normal, so don't know, I'm
pretty crazy I live with 12 catsfor you

ben ryan (01:36:01):
you're like, you're a cat lady I am.

Schyler (01:36:05):
I'm a crazy cat lady, no, but it's.
There is a truth to this,though, that you know.
I did benefit from having theseprocedures, from having a good
medical pathway, of a lot ofthese procedures being
facilitated and it benefiting me, but I do think that the actual
therapeutic model of genderaffirmation wasn't actually
helpful to me.

(01:36:26):
I mean, before I ever made thedecision transition, I deep dove
into the critical narratives ofwhat were the best criticisms
of this approach, and that wasreally what helped me make the
decision, because I needed to besure, absolutely sure, like is
this really what I want to do?
Because this is a one waystreet.
What?

ben ryan (01:36:46):
were those criticisms Like what did you read or what
did you listen?

Schyler (01:36:48):
to oh I, yeah, I went into like detransitioner
narratives and trans, the transwidow narratives, like partners
of of most trans women that, um,you know, were divorced from
that, and I just saw like kindof like snippets and snapshots
of what life could look like forsomeone in my situation or like

(01:37:09):
what, basically, like you knowwhat are the different, like
ways that life could manifestdown the road for me, and I
realized like I need to get thissolved now and I need to get
this ironed out.
And then the question became isdo I want to medicalize my
transition or am I happy beingsort of in between, with like
feminine expression and likelots of open cross-dressing and

(01:37:31):
femininity when it comes topainting my nails and like
having longer hair?
And through that process, againthrough like taking time and
processing each step, I realizedlike I don't, I don't think
being perceived so I wasbasically perceived as a gay man
for about a year before Iactually went on HRT and I was
like I don't think this is wheremy target is, like I don't

(01:37:52):
think this is where I want toland.
I want to go the full step andmedicalize my transition and as
soon as, kind of, like Brie said, as soon as I started HRT, it
clicked for me and I was likethis is the way, like this works
for me, and and then I justyeah, I went and I'm super happy
today.
But I also recognize likethere's always going to be some

(01:38:13):
people that will think I am aman or male, and I need to be
okay with this as part of mydecision.
And that's the part of genderaffirming therapy that I really
despise, because I feel likethey say oh, you feel this way,
you're a woman inside, andeveryone ought to treat you that
way, and if they don't, they'rein the wrong.
And that, to me, is settingpeople up for this problem of

(01:38:34):
being so unhappy when thingscome out and people don't agree
with it, and and also, how doesthat bleed into the just general
like plastic surgery culture isthat?

ben ryan (01:38:43):
is that a part of it?
I used to watch every episodeof 902, of dr 902 and oh, and it
always had the same storyline.
This person had a personalproblem unrelated to their body
that was going to be solvedthrough plastic surgery.
In the end they were alwayspresented as cured of their
problem, whatever it might be.
They were shy or they couldn'tfind a boyfriend, or something
like that.
Their career would change andso does that mindset also

(01:39:05):
influence people's genderdysphoria and their desire to
trench transition.
But we can't have thesediscussions because that runs up
against the danger zone ofanyone saying that anyone's
feelings about their own genderidentity aren't anything but
totally gender essentialistvalid.
So that's that's the discussionwe're having here now, you know
.
And the question is I went andhad.

(01:39:26):
If I had a big nose and wantedthis little small one like,
would I really be happy with it?
You know?

taftaj (01:39:31):
No, I think that's a good point.
Go ahead.
Yeah, thank you.
I think the big difference isthat our culture sort of
understands that oftentimesplastic surgery is not the
answer to people's problems.
We can be very honest aboutthat, and I think a big issue
with gender affirming care isthat we just cannot be honest

(01:39:52):
about it, like you're saying,and so transition at is treated
as something that likeabsolutely will help you, and to
say otherwise is total anathema.
It's gonna get you thrown out ofthe room, and I think that,
more than that as well, there'sjust this expectation that if
you transition like, everyoneneeds to be fully on board with

(01:40:16):
that and if they're not, they'reexercising, yeah they're
transferring, and you knowthat's a detriment to you as a
person, to your ability tosurvive.
You know that's causing suicidesand death.
And the reality is we'resetting trans people up for
failure because we're instillingthis mentality of like total
fragility, where everyone needsto be affirming you, otherwise

(01:40:39):
you're fucked.
That's just not the case.
People are so much moreresilient than they realize, and
so I think that we're.
You know, brianna, shementioned that it seems like
trans people are in some ways,more miserable than ever.
I think it's because, you know,we've moved to this perspective
where, more and more, we'reputting the responsibility on
everyone else.

ben ryan (01:40:59):
Yes, yes, external validation yeah yeah, and people
are.

taftaj (01:41:04):
Just they're seeking value in other people's minds.
I saw a tech talk the other day.
Someone was saying that, likethey get gendered correctly, she
her all the time, but they justknow in their heads that the
other person in their head isreally thinking he, him, and I
cannot imagine a more toxic wayto approach the world where

(01:41:24):
you're engaging in this mindreading and it's not even good
enough for someone to refer toyou with the right pronouns you
need to like know that in theirhead they got it.
So a few things.

ben ryan (01:41:36):
I would say so.
Laura Edwards-Lieper, you'reprobably familiar with her, so
she was part of the team thatimported the Dutch model to
Boston Children's in 2007, thefirst clinic ever to open to
give pediatric gender transitiontreatment and so she is a
psychologist and in recent yearsshe's become more of a skeptic
from within that is concernedabout some of these excesses

(01:41:59):
that we're talking about.
She really believes in verythorough assessments.
You know spending like 20 hours, all told, speaking with the
kid, writing a huge report forthe parents, that sort of thing.
So I asked her for an article Iwas writing for the New York
Post recently about what thefuture of the trans movement for
kids is in the United States.
And I said you know, if itcomes to pass that because of

(01:42:20):
the insurance climate, legalclimate, that kids aren't going
to be able to access blockersand hormones increasingly if
they want them, how is thatgoing to impact all these kids?
And she said something thattotally amazed me.
She said well, I've worked witha lot of these kids who can't
get these meds, either becauseof the state law or because one
or both their parents says no,and eventually they come to

(01:42:42):
terms with it and they justrealize they have to wait and my
jaw hit the floor because thiswas something like totally
normal to hear, but you're notallowed to say it.
These kids, you know by andlarge, will be resilient and
this narrative that they willdefinitely kill themselves
bothers me so much and I thinkthis is somebody I spent much of
my life suicidal.
I know about this feeling.

(01:43:02):
It is the worst feeling in theworld.
It is a constant drumbeat thatyou would be better off not
existing.
It is extremely painful but weknow from suicide research that
talking about it in a simplisticway and discussing a simplistic
cause and effect can influencepeople's suicide and the
discourse about this.
The way that next benedict wasdiscussed, that case was very

(01:43:24):
complicated.
You know if you listen to therecording in the in the hospital
with the cop when x is beinginterviewed next instigated the
fight.
But also next father wasabusive and recently got out of
prison or something.
There was a lot going on inthis kid's life, more than just
what happened in that bathroom,and for the media and for glad
to everyone to capitalize onthat and to fundraise off of

(01:43:46):
that was really just totallyinexcusable to me.
And one other thing I wanted tosay is that anna hutchinson.
It was also a psychologist whocame from this movement and was
part of the gender identitydevelopment system, or kids at
the nhs in the uk.
The clinic that started inabout 2011 was shut down last
year and she became awhistleblower.
She felt that they were notusing the proper guide rails,

(01:44:08):
that they were being reckless,that they were using the
ideology as opposed to science,and I spoke with her the other
day and she said something thatreally surprised me.
She said you know, right now,as we're discussing here, no one
is even trying to research away to properly anticipate
whether kids will be permanentlygender dysphoric when they're
going into this medicalizedsystem or whether they have a
permanent trans identity.

(01:44:28):
No one's even trying toresearch this.
Right and to the contrary,people like Jack Turbin from
UCSF and Diane Aronstaff also atinstitution.
They published a paper on howto do these assessments
according to the WPATH rules.
The very first thing they sayis this is not to determine if
the kid is really trans, and I'mso shocked by that but should
not be, to put it moreclinically, should not be the

(01:44:49):
purpose to assess whetherthey'll be permanently gender
dysphoric.
And so Dr Hutchinson told me.
She said because of this,because there is no proper way
to predict who will be the Kellyin this institution and who
might be, say, me.
And of course, as you said, whoknows?
Maybe you would have been me inanother life.
But like, is it better or worse?
These are important questionsto ask.
But Dr Hutchinson told me thatshe said, absent that system

(01:45:12):
that could accurately predicthow these kids will turn out
Ultimately, she didn't thinkthat gender transition for kids
was ethical, even in a clinicaltrial, because there's too much
risk.
And I thought that was you know.
I would be curious to know whatyou guys think of that position
, which is very strong.
This is coming from somebodywho knows the system, so they
are very informed call that aradical position.

Brianna (01:45:34):
Perhaps so I hear what you're saying I hear what you're
saying.
I think that's valid.
I'm sure if, like, an alternatehistory existed where my family
had let me, you know, likestart social transition when I
was 16 and didn't care that Iwas interested in boys and let
me express myself, I'm sure Iwould have survived till I met,
you know, made to 18, though Istill would have had to have a

(01:45:55):
tremendous amount of plasticsurgery and still be too tall.
This is the part of it and,respectfully, this is why I
think you miss and this is why Iworry about the political
project I think sometimes you'repart of.
So if you look through all ofhuman history, like boys that
want to be girls are part ofhuman history through 3,000
years of recorded history and,like we've always existed, we'll

(01:46:19):
always exist and typicallysociety does not treat us very
well.
We are universally a sexworking class or like a lower
class, that is, like looked downon doing medial labor.
There's just the history oftrans people and I think it's
really easy to say stuff likewell, you know people will, you

(01:46:42):
know they'll survive tillthey're 18.
But the problem is the cultureof the political project, like
if that was a sacrifice we weretruly making and we were really
getting those kids help like Imight be more amenable to it.
That's not the gate.
Like jk rowling is engaged in apolitical project to dehumanize
trans people she just is.

ben ryan (01:47:04):
She didn't used to.

Brianna (01:47:04):
I listened to the witch trials and she wasn't them, but
she is now absolutelyradicalized and I know firsthand
how being a cult figure in oneof these identity cults will
radicalize.

ben ryan (01:47:13):
And there was that person who was like a referee
for some little sports league inthe middle nowhere in england.
She just sent all the theoriesall over the.

Brianna (01:47:21):
It's insane, what for sure my point is like I feel
like the.
I feel like it's actually verysimilar to israel, palestine, in
the sense that the victimabuser order is being switched
here by a political project,because it's like trans people,
like historically do not havepolitical power.

ben ryan (01:47:43):
Trans people, historically are arguing that in
the supreme court right now.
That is a key argument aboutwhether they count as a quasi
suspect class, like women as awomen are count as quasi
suspects class, which means thatif there's a law that
discriminates against them, it'sa much higher bar to cross to
say whether or not it is a validform of criticism.
So that is up for debate verymuch in the highest court of the

(01:48:06):
land right now.

Brianna (01:48:07):
Yeah Well, I wish they'd been smarter about the
case.

ben ryan (01:48:11):
I don't see myself.
I would hate for people tothink and many people do, but
that I'm a part of a politicalproject and then I'm, and I'm
arguing on behalf of dr hodgsonor dr laura edward leaper.
You know, I do make certaineditorial decisions about which
voices to highlight and which Idon't think are no deserve the
light of day perhaps, but it isnot my role to argue those

(01:48:32):
positions myself, you know, butbut to spotlight them, I think
that it look?

Brianna (01:48:37):
I wouldn't.
I consider you a friend.
I love talking to you, Irespect your work, I do think
you have a point of view and Ithink a sophisticated media
consumer can read your work andlike the person you just uh
chose like you wrote an articleof me and it is a dissenting
voice and then you chose to putthe person you just mentioned
that said those kids willsurvive if you make them wait

(01:48:57):
till 18, a decade, like threeparagraphs highlighting them at
the end, and to me that reads asthis is my point of view, this
is the conclusion the readershould draw.
That's fine, it's, it's honestjournalism.
I'm just saying I do think youhave a point of view and it
comes across in your work.

Schyler (01:49:12):
Yeah, I hear you you know, but I I do try to temper
it the best I can yeah, I think,yeah, I, I was just gonna say
like, I mean, I think everyonehas a point of view, but when it
comes to ben benjamin's work,like I find it's so balanced,
and actually it's remarkablybalanced to me because I'm like
I see you taking flack forgendering you know, I guess

(01:49:32):
correct gendering or whatever oftrans people, but like people
will come at you and I'm justlike, oh my gosh, I kind of
enjoy it a little bit when theygo crazy, because I don't care
and I just mute those threadsand I'll be like let's have some
trouble and I'll just say it isunkind to misgender,
transgender people yeah andit'll get like half a million

(01:49:53):
views and like 1200 angrycomments and I'm just like going
about my day.

ben ryan (01:49:57):
I don't, I don't hear it, and because I also don't
care, and if you say we're gonna, we're gonna unfollow and block
you, and I'd go and block a lotof them because you people are
just annoying, I mean, ifnothing else, yeah, and I really
disagree because and I I agreewith that, since that is my
sincere to believe that it isunkind for me to call any of you
men for one thing would requireso much cognitive dissonance.

(01:50:17):
I'm looking at you and like men, no, you know that's ridiculous
.

Schyler (01:50:21):
It's so wild to me how it flipped from one it was like
180, because it used to be oh,you're not allowed to misgender
a trans person, like on theplatforms.
And now it's the other way.

ben ryan (01:50:31):
And it's like this language policing pendulum.
Well, what they're saying isthat if I call any of you she, I
am making a political statementabout your sex.
Therefore, you have a right tobe in the following single sex
spaces and that is a threat towomen.
That's the extension of thatargument.
I don't agree with it thatslippery slope.
And and I think that that'swhen you hear people like

(01:50:55):
veronica ivy or, recently, zoezephyr saying I am a biological
women, that's a political.
Hear people like Veronica Ivyor, recently, zoe Zephyr saying
I am a biological woman, that'sa political argument.
That is saying I am totallyinflexible about the argument
whether I have a right to be inthese single sex spaces and so
and I think that that causes aradical reaction from the TERFs
Like oh yeah, we're going tostart calling you he because we
don't think you belong there,and that you can't have a

(01:51:17):
nuanced discussion about likewhat's the threat if you're both
just peeing like there's stallsor other people around?
Like is there any evidence ofthese horrible attacks that
you're discussing happening likeor is this just a bogeyman?
You know?

kelly (01:51:30):
do you have any place to say that trans women are
biologically women instead ofbiologically female?
Just in the sense that you knowwe are born with the dysphoria
that makes us feel like we arewomen, so not to say like we're
female, but just being born withthat dysphoria biologically.
That's an interesting way ofputting it I.

ben ryan (01:51:49):
I think we need languages, I was saying earlier
just to be clear of what sexversus gender is.
So what I think I'm hearing yousay is the way I would put it
is is that's your gender andyour sex is different, and
that's part of the problem.
That tension is what causes thedysphoria.
And then the HRT or or justcross-sex hormones or whatever
you're going to put it, that'sto work against and to reconcile

(01:52:11):
that conflict.
So to me it's illogical to saythat the sex is different,
because then you wouldn't needall that treatment, you wouldn't
have to have had all thisblasphemy, you just would have
been a woman.

Brianna (01:52:21):
I think, ian Kelly, I know you can agree with me on
this you know the grossness ofthe way that TERFs and gender
criticals talk about my body.
It is beyond anything.
Any man that found out I wastrans has ever spoken to me
before.
Like Kelly, I've seen them dothis to you.
Like, do thread hundreds ofcomments talking about if you

(01:52:43):
have a vagina or not.
Yeah, I think a really goodanalog would be like what if
someone had breast cancer, hadreconstructive surgery and like
someone, like going with, likegoing with them and going like
well, do you really have breasts?
If you really call an implant abreast, you had your.
You know you had all yourbreast tissue removed.
Are you really a woman?
I mean, it's like look, Iunderstand that this is

(01:53:03):
something surgically created,but it's really none of your
business and there's no need tosay stuff like this, like this
is really gross to the argumentit is my business if, if this
person is naked in front of meand has a penis, that's fair so
what do you say to that?
well, I don't think any ciswoman should ever see a penis in
a locker room.
That is beyond like.

(01:53:24):
The fact that that's even on atable shows how crazy the
ideology has gotten.
When I transitioned 20 yearsago, you never would have found
any trans woman that ever, ever,ever would have even been in
that space pre-op in the firstplace.
So the fact that that's on thetable today just shows how
entitled and male-coded thisversion of activism is like.

(01:53:46):
I don't identify with it at all.
I'm post-op.
I don't even use like lockerrooms and it's like is that that
I'm like afraid or like forpolitical reasons?
I just got that still like 12year old.
Shame about my body.

ben ryan (01:53:58):
Do you feel like maybe you still don't belong?
Is that part of like that?

Brianna (01:54:02):
no, it's just like I didn't like being around boys
when I was naked because I feltsuch shame, and that's just
never changed right.
So, um, I just shower at homeand skip the whole thing, if
that makes sense to your point.

ben ryan (01:54:14):
So I've had testicular cancer.
So you know, one of them is aprosthesis.
So you know, am I half a man,you know right a hundred percent
.

taftaj (01:54:22):
It's a little ridiculous , but I think what you're
getting at about this, likeidentity and what makes someone
a man or a woman I mean, one ofthe arguments from the trans
rights side is that the pronounsand the dress and the identity
and what's system, that thepronouns are what legitimize

(01:54:53):
participating in sports, or it'sbecause everyone's operating on
this kind of like socialversion of gender, which is, I
think, kind of ridiculous.
And so I think we just need toget outside of that paradigm and
say, like, just describe thingsaccurately.
Like, like you're saying, transwomen, they prefer to be

(01:55:13):
gendered.

ben ryan (01:55:13):
She and also trans women are.
They're a different kind of awoman, and that's okay.
That's reality.
Trans women are like well, yes,but like in a different way,
and it's okay to discuss thatway is relevant for some things
like sports, like.

taftaj (01:55:27):
There's a different biology here.
So I mean earlier we talkedabout like, should gender
hormones be more gatekept?
I think fundamentally all ofthis, so many of these
conversations that come down towho is bearing the
responsibility of this decision,who is it affecting?

ben ryan (01:55:43):
Well, sometimes in a court of law if they're sued
that will be reconciled, thatwill be decided so and there are
a lot of lawsuits against youknow, detransitioner lawsuits
about two dozen, and they're notall kids, some of them, the
oldest one is 29.

taftaj (01:55:59):
Here's the thing I think doctors, if they are
experiencing these lawsuits,suddenly that's a really big
incentive for the medicalprofessionals to keep a lot more
, because if they're going to beheld responsible, they don't
want to mess up right.
And so I think that, like, ifyou're in a world where the
trans person, the person wantingto transition, holds all the

(01:56:20):
responsibility for taking thosehormones, then I think the bar
for accessing those hormonesshould be really low.
Um, but I also think that, likeyou, as a person who might want
to transition, there's a reasonwhy you might want to speak to
a doctor, and it's because youcare about getting a good
outcome, at least in theory.
And so you should want thatgatekeeping to make sure that

(01:56:40):
you're the right candidate forhormones, and you should want to
, you know, not impose upon.
You shouldn't want to, like,flash a penis in a locker room
because you're entering someoneelse's space, and all of this,
for me, just comes down to youshould bear the responsibility
of things and not impose thatoutcome on other people, in

(01:57:02):
whatever scenario.

Brianna (01:57:04):
Taff, let's be honest.
This version of the transcommunity is allergic to any
kind of personal responsibilityor agency.
It's exactly as you said.
The culture has moved a hundredpercent away from like we can't
even get trans gals in the newstrain, like you know.
Like like it's a hundredpercent like let's make it so
society will recognize all thisstuff and no agency on the

(01:57:27):
person itself.
It is I.
I don't know how we wouldchange that culture.
I I legitimately don't brie.

Schyler (01:57:34):
This is like that slogan.
You don't need dysphoria to betrans.
Yes, which is the dumbest thingI've ever done in my life.

ben ryan (01:57:41):
Let me play devil's advocate, because I hear people
pushing back against you, browna lot to saying like what you're
doing is you're policing transidentity so that only you would
get in the door, and that that'snot fair.
There's so many people who aresomewhere in the middle who just
want to be kind of a woman, akind of a man or the non-binary,
and they're going to havebreast implants but not take HRT

(01:58:01):
.
So you know what's wrong withthat.
Essentially, why shouldn't theybe allowed to make those
choices for themselves?
Why do they have to pass?
I'm really glad you asked thisquestion, yeah yeah, that's a
great question, yeah I'm notsaying this is my opinion, but I
hear this a lot.

Brianna (01:58:16):
It's fine, I've thought about this so much and I think
they're like.
My understanding of trans haslike radically expanded in the
last two years and I think thereare a lot of different gateways
to being trans and I don'tthink we're all the same thing.
I think the thing that genderidentity dysphoria picked up in
on the 80s that I have is asuper, super specific kind of

(01:58:41):
gateway to being trans.
That's kind of the old school.

ben ryan (01:58:44):
Yeah, these existed through all of human history.
Very rare like mostly natalmales.

Brianna (01:58:49):
About right Point one percent.
Kelly, as best as I can tellfrom knowing you, you're the
exact same thing as I am and wejust are this hyper rare
interested in boys understandingthis at a really young age.
Like, like thing that existsand I think it is expanded and I
don't have a problem with theway it's expanded.

(01:59:12):
Like I understand that thereare some non-binary people that
are going to exist.
I understand there are somelike more fetishistic
cross-dressers that are going towant to experiment with their
public presentation in real life.
That's fine, but to me thepublic policy concern is should
insurance pay for that stuff?
Should you have access towomen's spaces?

(01:59:34):
Like, what are your legalrights?

ben ryan (01:59:36):
that's when it affects other people paying for it or
you know, actually they'refeeling in those situations,
should they have the freedom todo it?

Brianna (01:59:48):
Hell yeah, this is America.
I love freedom.
That's great, but I think likethey are on a fundamentally
different pathway and have afundamentally different problem
than I do, these people withautism particularly.
I've looked so deeply into thetrans women with autism and the
way they're different than whatI have is, and there's some

(02:00:09):
pertinent public policydiscussions there, so maybe I'm
right, maybe I'm wrong, but myjam is public policy and I think
it has to start with protectingthe people that need it the
most, which are the ones thathave a medical case of this.
We have to transition.
We have to move on with life.
This is not a social project.

(02:00:31):
It is literally the oldestversion of this that we can
identify does.
Does that argument make senseto you?

kelly (02:00:37):
yeah but do you not think that kind of contributes to the
problem that we were talkingabout a little bit earlier, just
when it comes to like whoactually is trans, because I
don't know if we would callthese people trans or I don't
know.
I guess they go by non-binarynow but it I would like to think
of specifically in the cases oftrans women like you and me,
brie, who are attracted to menonly Cause I know Skye and Taff

(02:00:59):
are bisexual.
I believe you know, when itcomes to us, who are straight oh
, you're straight.
Okay, sorry I, but it's like Iwould think a real way to know
if someone's trans, at least howit would probably be back in
the day, especially when youwere transitioning, brie would
be that oh, do you have thedesire to have bottom surgery?
Do you feel this work aboutwhat's in your legs?

(02:01:21):
And nowadays the community issaying that, like you, don't
have to have dysphoria aboutthat to be considered trans, and
I think it's created a lot ofissues.
Not that I have any issues withtrans people that have no
issues with their genitalia, butI I do think it means it's
created a lot of issues insociety and it means they're
very different from who you andme are it's something different
and I'm not judging it.

Brianna (02:01:41):
It's just something different.
I never had a second of doubtthat that's something I wanted,
and you know it's.
I think it's fine for differentsubtypes to come up, but this
is where we need an honestdiscussion and an honest public
policy, if that makes sense.

kelly (02:01:55):
Yeah, no, I agree with you on that.
I think a huge way to confirmthat like they wouldn't have,
like you know, regrets in thefuture, especially if they are

(02:02:16):
only male attracted, is to knowif they have dysphoria with,
with their genitalia Cause ifthey don't, I feel like that
leaves a lot of room open forthem to have regrets in the
future.

ben ryan (02:02:22):
These are the kinds of questions that are not being
asked on purpose by theestablishment.
They're ruling that out, and Ifind that very surprising,
because it would make perfectsense to do just what you're
saying it makes too much sense.

Brianna (02:02:37):
That's the problem all right, I want to get you a few
more spicy uh questions here.
I want to make a little dramahere, all right?
All right, so I want to talk.
One of the most embarrassingthings I've ever seen on Twitter
was the project to smear you asa chaser.
Does it?
I guess I just wanted to know,like there was never, you were a

(02:02:59):
gay man, right?
Anyone that knows you in thehangout like you're 100% gay.
To get you denigrated andpersonally attacked like you're,
like this is a sexual thing andtransplant.
I've always wanted to ask youhow did that feel?
That must have really hurt alot to have your integrity
attacked like that.

ben ryan (02:03:20):
So what happened was Alejandro Caraballo.
This is two years ago, aboutright now.
If you recall.
There was that series that cameout in Reuters about pediatric
gender care for kids.
I thought the series was verygood that came out in Reuters
about pediatric gender care forkids.
I thought the series was verygood and there was one in
particular that was aboutlargely Kenan Ross McKinnon's
research at York universityabout detransitioning, and I
found the article reallyinteresting because it sounded

(02:03:41):
like something you should reallyexplore.
And this was at a time when Iwas really new to this topic
myself.
So I went on Twitter and justsaid gee, you know, at the time
I had like 12,000 followers, soit's kind of a bigger account.
But I said it would be good toencourage this kind of research.
And Alejandro Carballo found meand just started railing on me.
I just made up all this stuffabout what I was supposedly
saying and it was just insane.

(02:04:01):
She just sicked all the furieson me and one of the things that
she said was like oh, and he'sprobably a chaser which you know
, people don't know that youknow, the old words was tranny.
Chaser was caught out.
The first word which not to sayanymore.
So and that was just an absurdsuggestion.
But there was this really bigblow up where Ari and I were

(02:04:22):
upset with one another.
And I was upset with herbecause she, as I said I have
cancer.
I said I have cancer, and shewas really mad about this thing
that I read in the WashingtonPost, where I had said that it
was a real shame that theAmerican Psychiatric Association
was not really analyzing anddiscussing the nuances of the
science of this issue and theway that they once had, 50 years
prior about homosexuality, thatit really just, you know,

(02:04:45):
internal debate and discussionwas how they delisted
homosexuality from the dsm in1973 and that kind of debate is
not happening now about thesetrans issues.
So ari was getting really madat me about having written that
and she started listing thesethings like there were more
hypothetical examples of whydon't we take away your, your
this, why don't we take awayyour chemotherapy?

(02:05:05):
And I I had just had a cat scan,like two weeks prior, and I was
really terrified that it wasgoing to have recurrence and my
life was going to be just likewrecked, and so I was very
sensitive at the time and I blewup at Ari and she took
advantage of this and presentedthis tweet that gave the false
impression by squishing twothings I had said together that

(02:05:26):
I was a deranged pervert who wasfurious with her because she
would not wasn't attracted to me.
Oh my God, this is sounderhanded and I'm really
frankly shocked, because Ari isa public representative of media
matters.
When she tweets, she representsthem Absolutely.
There is no difference betweenthose two entities and for her

(02:05:47):
to behave that way in public wastotally shocking.

Brianna (02:05:50):
She's done the same thing to me.
She took a tweet I made to thisCalifornia.

ben ryan (02:05:55):
She has files in every one.
It's for the ready.
They keep them on file in casethey need to use it 100%.

Brianna (02:06:02):
But what I was going to say is for Ari and me.
I put out a tweet talking aboutthat case in California which
is basically saying that ifteachers find out that a parent,
that child, is trans, that theycan't socially transition, that
hold on, let me finish thatchild at school secretly, like
behind their back, and they needto alert the parents.

(02:06:22):
Now I thought really carefullyabout this and I understand I
went through most of myadolescence terrified that I was
going to get outed.
So I very much understand thatand considering the fact that my
family disowned me the day Icame out like it does not
surprise me at all.
Like my worries back then werewell-founded.
So I understand that.

(02:06:43):
But I feel very strongly thatyou cannot say both ways that
socially transitioning childrenat school is innocuous and this
is a very dangerous thing.
Where people need health carefrom, it's either got to be one
or the other and after a lot ofthought about this, I do think
that parents deserve to know.
So in that situation you haveguidance counselors ready to

(02:07:04):
call CPS if that child is abusedLike, those kids need help.
That's my position and this isa nuanced, nuanced, thoughtful
position that I've spent a lotof time thinking of wait already
do?
She took that first paragraphtalking out like the parents
need to be notified, and leftout all the context of it and

(02:07:24):
destroyed my reputation with acertain crowd, which was a
fundamental exercise indishonesty.
And this is my problem with alot of the trans public figures
that they they're exactly asextremist as Gamergate or, you
know, free Palestine or a lot ofthese other like social media
cults that have risen up.
It is not a force that's in theinterest of pursuing truth, if

(02:07:48):
that makes sense.

taftaj (02:07:49):
Absolutely.
It's vile political ideologythat's ultimately self-serving.
It supports an activist classthat benefits from ratcheting up
the temperature of theconversation.
The end result is that we'refurther away from the truth.
Trans people end up hurt and weend up pissing off a lot of
people.
Alienate people a lot of peopleand it's all to line the pockets

(02:08:12):
of these activists who arehelping us, and it's very tragic
to me that people like theyimplicitly believe that you know
, trans people need these peopleto survive and without them
we're just going to be thrown tothe wolves.

Schyler (02:08:26):
I don't think people realize just how toxic and
destructive this wholeenvironment I think it caters to
that vision of what genderideology wants at the end of the
day, which is to replacebiological sex and law with
gender identity, and it's anillusion, really, because it's
never going to be tenable inactual real life.

(02:08:48):
And this is where they'll playto that, that script.
That's what that whole, youknow, that whole sphere of trans
activism does is.
It plays to that script and itpromises this and it's like look
where it's gotten us.
Trump is now elected.
There's so much backlash andit's only going to get worse as
long as this vision is beingpushed this is a good thing like

(02:09:10):
brianna.

ben ryan (02:09:10):
I think it's important for people to recognize that
that law and these policies inschools in California is not a
kid quietly telling their socialstudy teacher that they think
they may be trans If the kidsocially transitions with a new
name and a pronoun?
That's what the realconsideration is, and I was
discussing with somebody just inmy own personal life who's
involved with the school, andwhat this person said is we, as

(02:09:33):
the school, are in partnershipwith raising these kids.
We have to have an opendialogue with these kids and
this is something that reallycrosses a certain Rubicon where
we have to inform them,especially if we're talking
about kids are suicidal andthere are uniform policies in
place to protect kids againstabuse at home, so you don't need

(02:09:55):
a specific policy necessarilyto protect against that, because
there's already such a thing asmandatory reporting.
So, and just to go back to theari situation to answer your
question, the onslaught that Ireceived as a result of her
mischaracterizing me in publicwas so wholly damaging to me

(02:10:16):
personally.
The stress that I went through Iit was.
People ask me like, what's itlike when you get dragged on
twitter like this there, and Ialmost don't want to tell people
this like, because it justgives them fuel to say, oh, you
really can't upset him and ruinhis day, but it's like it's an
out-of-body experience.
I really often don't even feelI'm within the room.
It is so surreal to have thatmany people trying to ruin your

(02:10:38):
life and to ruin your job and totry to get people to not work
with you and that sort of thing.
So, yes, ari, you really messedup a good period of my life
very successfully throughunbelievable dishonesty, and for
that reason, though, I I'm notashamed of anything.
I didn't do anything wrong,except for lose my temper in a

(02:11:01):
situation.
It was very, very valid,considering that she had brought
up my own health history,especially in a time I was
really vulnerable about that.

Schyler (02:11:11):
And then you say it's unkind to misgender trans people
.

ben ryan (02:11:14):
Like how do you?

Schyler (02:11:15):
how do you balance that , that's amazing to me that you
can still I don't know not takethe backlash position.

ben ryan (02:11:21):
Yeah, luckily I don't.
Really I don't think personally.
You know I made a mistake inlosing my temper with her, but
other than that, you know I knowmy side of the street is clean
and I I respect ari's right tobe a woman and that sort of
thing and and you know I haveabsolutely nothing against that
whatsoever, but I don't respectthe way that she comports
herself this is a bigger problem, don't you think that trans

(02:11:43):
people have with the media?

Brianna (02:11:45):
because look at the way ?
Um, what's the woman that wrotethe gender clinic story, emily
uh Blaslon Blaslon for the NewYork times?

ben ryan (02:11:53):
the way we treated her the meat grinder.
That was a great story.
It was a fantastic story.

Brianna (02:11:58):
Very sympathetic to her .
We were wildly abusive to her.
I have not seen her writeanything about trans people
since.
Like is there?
I mean I'm asking you if youcan share.
Like is there a reluctance oflegitimate reporters like you to
touch these issues 100%?

ben ryan (02:12:20):
There is terror in journalists and there's terror
in editors and those terror.
There are different sort ofmotivations.
Journalists don't want to havetheir reputation run through the
mud.
Once you step over that lineand you say anything slightly
critical, or perceived to becritical, about gender medicine,
you get a page on Andrea James'website.

(02:12:40):
So she has this hate websiteand there are pages of everyone
who's ever done anything wrongAbout the gender world.
And if you're really bad, youget this ghoulish cartoon of
your face.
I haven't hit that level, butshe calls everyone into
anti-trans activists and no oneknows for sure.
There are theories which I don'twant to say out loud about why

(02:13:01):
this is, but she has somehoweffectively manipulated the
Google algorithm so that thosepages are very high on your
Google search for your name.
So we're talking aboutprofessionals who work in media,
or psychologists mediapsychologists you know who are
parents.
I I had a person tell me thatthat page about them they're a
professor is very concerning.
Um for schools, like if theywere applying to, like a private

(02:13:21):
school for their kids or liketheir, you know, parents, the
the parents of their kidsfriends might look them up and
think that they're evil.
There is an entire system outthere to terrify and I was
really.
Somebody recently criticized mefor being hyperbolic about this
, describing as a cabal, but I'msorry, but it is the reason we,
that people like me, are fewand far between, is because

(02:13:43):
they're terrified of losingtheir jobs.
They're terrified of thereputation being dragged to the
mud.
They don't have the personalstrength to stand there and to
be just absolutely destroyedonline.
I grew up under the tyranny of ahousehold bully To have
somebody who spent their entiretime around me to tell me that I
was worthless and shoulddisappear and never be heard
from.
I barely spoke at home as achild, unless I was alone with

(02:14:05):
my mother.
I did not speak as a child.
So to go through that kind ofan upbringing, to survive it
similar to, I think, to whatyou're feeling about your own
gender identity you have todevelop this core sense of
strength.
I know who I am and I know whatthose people say about me is
wrong and think a lot of people,like you know my brothers, will
sort of beat on me and be likewe're just, this is for your own

(02:14:27):
good.
Like we're, we're building youout to be tough and in a way
they were right, but, like,thanks a lot.
It's not the best, yeah, butlike I can take it in a way that
a lot of people just can't, um,so it's, it's.
It creates this enormous peoplelike ari and and alejandro
carbaya who attack us sobrutally in public.
It creates a very, veryeffective chilling effect.

(02:14:51):
They're very powerful, um, andthey've been kind of confounded
that they haven't been able toscare me off so but I don't want
to sit there and say I'mrunning from a reactionary
position where, like, I'mgetting revenge on something
them it's more than like I willkeep doing what I'm doing,
regardless of what you guys tryto do.

Brianna (02:15:09):
I think you've been remarkably measured, given the
abuse that you've gotten.
Um.
So I have a couple morequestions I want to ask you
before we go.
Uh, what do you, as a gay man,make of this lgb?
Uh, drop the t movement.
Do you consider trans womenlike us part of the lgbt?
Are you an lgb kind of guy oran lgbt kind of guy?

(02:15:32):
I mean?

ben ryan (02:15:32):
it is.
It is sort of curious thatwe're all kind of thrown
together in a basket because ourpaths towards getting to be a
sexual and gender minority isanother way of putting it are
quite different.
So, um it, in a way it's sortof it's sort of odd bedfellows,
but in other ways it makes senseto group us together.
So I think that the people um,I'm forgetting the names of

(02:15:54):
their organizations like justineI can't remember her last name
certain people who don't, whohave these non-profits that do
want to drop the t, I thinkthey're definitely
representative of thatreactionary effect of the
extremism on the other side andit's a shame that we can't all
get along.
But at the same time, I thinkwhat I hear from a lot of
lesbians in particular isthey're really concerned about

(02:16:16):
the way that the lesbiancommunity used to be is being
degraded slowly and there's anddivided, and this idea that you
can't be a lesbian, you have topush lesbian more, you have to
be a man, that they're reallysad to see what they thought is
their community dissipate.
I think it's very different.
The gay male community hasn'treally changed that much,
although I do see a lot moreyounger guys sort of at least

(02:16:40):
experimenting with sort of greateffeminate.
You know being very feminineand wearing makeup, that kind of
thing.
But I think it's not as muchand I can't comment as sort of
expertly on the lesbiancommunity necessarily so it
sounds like a very weakendorsement of lgbt to me I
guess.
I guess you could put it thatway, because I don't necessarily
know that our quote-unquotecommunities naturally overlap as

(02:17:03):
much as you might think so Imean, just because we're the
same age, you know what it usedto be, ben, like I mean like I
go to a really gay gym.
There's nothing but gay guysthere.
I see gay guys everywhere.
So just in my everydayperambulating, I don't
necessarily overlap with transpeople or lesbians, that much.
So, um, I it's just.
That's just my own vision interms of like what I see from

(02:17:25):
day to day.
You know, I'd have to sort oflike make more of an effort to
reach out, to interact with theother letters and the alphabet
people, as Chappelle calls us.

taftaj (02:17:37):
I will also say I understand this impulse, because
there's the same thing withinthe trans community where trans
people are like do I really haveall that much in common with
non-binary people?

ben ryan (02:17:49):
Or what about asexuals ?
You know, we're asexuals.

taftaj (02:17:52):
But yeah, I mean just, you know, focusing on people who
have a gender identity that islike slightly different from
ours.
Like you know, I identify aswoman.
They don't identify as a woman.
It seems like fairly close andyet I understand that like in
some ways there's like a gulf ofdifference between us and
sometimes that's really relevant.
So I definitely get the desireto be like you know, I frankly I

(02:18:15):
think lgbt makes sense to grouptogether, um, but I understand
how there there are these majordifferences it's probably that
we're seen as others by otherpeople, and so we're all sort of
back together because we'restigmatized.
I think that's what we all havein common, for one thing and
also because it's all, itfundamentally relates to
expectations about your gender,right?

(02:18:36):
So there's an expectation that,like, if your gender, you know,
or if your sex is male, thatyou are attracted to women and
that you wear men's clothes andthat you, you know, don't have
breasts and whatnot, but webreak that expectation just in
different ways, right?
And so I think it's veryimportant that people not be
pigeonholed according to theirnatal sex, fundamentally forced

(02:18:59):
into a certain rut in life, andso for me, that's the connection
, but I understand that thosebehaviors are different, and so
it's worth you know, I grew upin the 80s.

ben ryan (02:19:09):
My mother wouldn't allow me to get a lavender
t-shirt when I was six years old.
That's one of the reasons youcan't really see it.
But my, my rug is lavender andthat is one of the reasons why
it's still pushing back again.
I wasn't allowed to have a newfemale friends after the age of
six.
The grandfathered in one girlthat I was.

(02:19:29):
I'm still with her, so like,and then and then I was like
screw this.
When I was 16 and I joined apretty girl clique.
It was, it's so much fun and uhand so like.
Gender boundaries absolutelyaffect me as well, but in a
different way that they're.
They're partly a reflection ofmy sexuality, but it's not a
reflection of my having adifferent gender identity per se
.

Brianna (02:19:49):
But I think one of the reasons I am, I think one of the
reasons I'm really frustratedby this lgb drop the t movement
is historically like no offense.
Man, you're great, I love you,uh.
But you know, historically gaymen have been really shitty
allies to trans women like, uh,you know, if you look for the
push to gay marriage, um, youknow legislating this in states.

(02:20:12):
I invite anyone to go look atthe history.
What is the first poker chipthat the gay men running HRC
threw in the pile with everysingle opportunity to push gay
rights along?
It was us.

ben ryan (02:20:25):
It's kind of like the sucker jets pushing aside the
needs of black women.

Brianna (02:20:29):
Exactly the same, oh, interesting.

ben ryan (02:20:32):
Shirley Chisholm in the 70s and all that very
similar now I want to be clear.

Brianna (02:20:36):
I see the way that lesbians are treated by this
iteration of the trans movement.
It horrifies me, like, like, ifyou're into women, like, god
bless, no judgment.
But the way it was when Itransitioned is there was an
understanding that you neededimmense sensitivity about
entering those spaces and thatyou were not entitled to be

(02:20:58):
there, that you could earn yourspace there with a certain
threshold of behavior.
But like, when I see lesbianfriends of mine talking about,
like people on these apps,talking about you know, sucking
their girl dick or whatever,like, whatever, like it's
horrifying behavior.
So I understand why the trusthas been broken.
But I think again, historically, I feel like there's this

(02:21:20):
reversal of the victim, likeorder here, and historically
trans women have been treatedlike shit by lg and b and it's
like it's.
This is the time where wereally really need that
solidarity, because I amconnected enough in Congress to
have an inkling of what's comingdown the pipe and this is going

(02:21:41):
to be a hell of a four yearsfor us.
So it just it feels veryself-involved, if that makes
sense to you so a little pieceof history.

ben ryan (02:21:49):
So in 2015, when the Obergefell decision came out of
the Supreme Court that legalizedsame-sex marriage across the
country, I went down toStonewall here in New York City.
There was this great rally.
It was really exciting and lotsof speakers, and I always like
to say that I was there at themoment that the trans right
movement really grew out of theold gay movement and it was like

(02:22:09):
the fifth speaker and it was atrans woman.
I grew out of the old gaymovement and it was like the
fifth speaker and it was a transwoman.
I don't know who she was, butshe got up and she was pissed
and she said all right, you gayguys like you got what you want,
don't you leave us in the dust.
That's right.
And in new york state, theempire state pride agenda was
solely devoted to trying to getgay marriage legalized and they
succeeded and they closed down.
And that enraged a lot of thetrans rights activists in

(02:22:33):
particular, because they feltthat they could have remodeled
themselves and then that that,in fact, is often a criticism of
glad.
We've seen these arguments that, oh, glad should have just shut
down because you know, gayrights, they're fine now and
then they had to go into thetrans stuff and now they've gone
bananas.
But it it really.
2015 was such a turning pointthat was right when the times

(02:22:53):
magazine magazine article cameout with the trans tipping point
, with a I was horrified thatday.

Brianna (02:22:59):
I wish that never came out.

ben ryan (02:23:02):
so just that what that moment was really, when what we
see now as the trans rightsrights movement begins and it
was the next year that what'scalled section 1557 in the
Affordable Care Act that theObama administration changed
that to say that you can'tdiscriminate on gender identity,
justice with sex, and so that,as you're saying, was how the
Obama administration made it sothat there was much more

(02:23:25):
insurance coverage for all of us, as you were referring earlier.
So tell me, why do you have aproblem with that?
I met her once.

Brianna (02:23:36):
I was once in a show.
Because so lovely.
I just want to say yeah, um,well, it's because, like, did it
work out well for the jews ingermany being super visible?
I think trans people are alwayssafest when we're kind of
invisible yeah, and there'ssomething that's bad to be too
stealth, that what?

ben ryan (02:23:48):
why do you have to apologize?
I?

Brianna (02:23:49):
mean, look, there are valid techniques both ways.
But I think the problem rightnow is trans people are so hyper
visible and my life was much,much better when people weren't
thinking about this all the time, like the amount of information
people have like about stufflike dilation it's just
astonishing to me orunderstanding, like the

(02:24:09):
testosterone markers, like likebrow ridges.
This is.
This was not common knowledge10 years ago, so I think it's so
much harder to pass todaybecause people are so much more
tuned into the.

ben ryan (02:24:21):
It's kind of like how aids made people talk about
homosexuality all the time inthe 80s.
It was for the better in theend, because we had to discuss
it, but in the short term it wasabsolutely terrible yeah, all
right.

Brianna (02:24:34):
Uh, anyone taff?
I kind of cut you off.

taftaj (02:24:36):
Did you have anything you wanted to say, or I've got
one last question, if you don'tI guess, on the note about
suffragettes and black women andthe sort of desire to cut off
one part of the community as atleast a bargaining chip or
something, I think it's one ofthe reasons why I feel such a

(02:24:58):
strong need to defend non-binarypeople or people who are AGP
autosexual, I think or peopleyou know who just have have
lower dysphoria right.
I think that fundamentally,there needs to be an argument
that is strong enough to protectall groups right To say that

(02:25:23):
only white women should getvoting rights.

ben ryan (02:25:26):
I think it's fundamentally a weak argument
and it's much stronger strongerultimately to defend voting
rights for all women yeah,people and all people could be
different, and that's okay nottolerate, but celebrate
difference, which I always wantto say yeah, totally, I think
you sort of kick the can downthe road if you just, you know,

(02:25:46):
advocate for white women.

taftaj (02:25:48):
Um, so I I feel that very strongly, and that is just
a big part of my approach to allof this is trying to find that
position that is more true towhat's actually going on here,
and so that's why I talk so muchabout freedom and
responsibility.
It's hard, it's reallycomplicated, uh, but I think

(02:26:08):
that's where it has toultimately go.
I think that's fair.

Brianna (02:26:11):
I think that's fair.
I I think it's sometimes hardlike if you're in the public
policy space, because who arethe?
What are the public policyproposals being pushed by
serious people for non-binarypeople?
Um, I think when it expands tostuff like the.
You know the california lawthat lets someone non-binary
just fill out a form and then gointo a women's locker room and

(02:26:35):
wave their dick around, that's aserious public policy conflict
that I don't think it servestrans women to be in the middle
of.
So I'm open to a public policysolution there that works for
everyone.
From my point of view therethere it really feels like
everyone, especially in thenon-binary space, is such a
maximalist when it comes togender ideology.

(02:26:58):
It's hard to pick the.
I'm with you on the freedomargument, but if you're going
for concrete, like changes tolaw and policy and w standards,
we don't have any clinicalcriteria that are worth a damn
for, like diagnosing what anon-binary person is, the WPATH

(02:27:18):
like document standards of careon how to treat non-binary
people Go read it.
It's a page and a half and itjust basically says pick your
own gender role.
So I think it would be easierfor me to do that if there were
coherent public policy agendathat wasn't just destroy all
gender and announce yourpronouns, if that makes sense

(02:27:38):
and this is not really aboutnon-binary but just about how
the law can be the theseconflicts are irreconcilable and
judges will have to decide inthe sand.

ben ryan (02:27:46):
As a volleyball player case, both sides are using
title nine to argue for theirpoint of view, saying title nine
protects trans girls right tobe in women's sports or it
protects women's rights to havetheir single sex spaces, and one
side will have to win.
This will go.
You know, who knows, maybeit'll end up in the supreme

(02:28:08):
court.
But this is a serious problemand just sticking your hand in
the sand and saying that thereisn't nuance on either side of
this is not exactly helping thepublic discourse.
I was in this group of peoplewho were, you know, very.
I was talking with a mom whohad these, you know very elite
swimming children and they allwent to major schools they
recruited, and she was onlytalking about, like, keeping men

(02:28:30):
out of, you know, women'ssports, that kind of thing.
And I said to her well, what isfair for the trans woman, the
trans girl or she?
Her head exploded and theproblem is, like some of these
arguments are irreconcilable.
One side will have to win.
Either you're in or out.
This is a binary choice andit's just really painful because

(02:28:50):
you know leah thomas wouldhopefully have a right to
compete as best she can.
But the question is like isyour right limited?
Do you have to swim in themen's division and be, you know,
400?

Schyler (02:29:03):
it's that whole question of like does it
infringe on women's rights?
Or like, yeah, natal women,because it's?
This is the problem.
I mean, I I see this with likebalancing, like tap is put out,
like you know, it needs to besort of expansive and respect
human autonomy in the sense thatsome people might want to like
do it might benefit from hrt,but not a full transition.
But then when you come to theactual policy implications of

(02:29:25):
granting provisions fortransgender women, then you run
into problems because noteveryone is really fitting that
standard of what you think whenyou imagine a transgender woman.

ben ryan (02:29:36):
Like we've all talked about here, there are only men's
or women's bathrooms or youknow, just single serve.
You know we don't have a thirdoption.
There is not a third option insports.
So unless we create those thirdoptions, either you're in or
you're out.

taftaj (02:29:50):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I surprised the point totally
absurd that the government isexpected to prop up women's
sports when they are justobjectively not as valuable as
men's sports and the fact thatthe government is, like, so
involved in this causes so manyissues.
Oh boy, yeah, which is awesome,and you know, love that for the

(02:30:12):
free market.
You've seen these colleges anduniversities.
There's a certain number ofslots that are allocated for
women and a certain amount ofmoney that legally has to be
given to these programs and itmakes them incredibly
competitive and it distorts thereality of accessing these
schools and these privilegesbecause everyone wants, you know
, know, a piece of that pie andsuddenly it gets really

(02:30:33):
competitive in a way that isprobably not natural and so in
so many ways, we just need againnot not the topic of the
discussion, totally besides thepoint.
But I would love to see thegovernment making us less
responsible for these issues,because I think if a private
organization wants to have, liketrans women and women competing
together or doesn't, totallygreat.

(02:30:54):
But the problem is that, likewe as a society are forced to
buy into whatever thegovernment's deciding and
suddenly everyone has a stake inthis and a really strong
opinion on whether or not transwomen are women, which is
probably not helping I love that.

Brianna (02:31:08):
The longer this show, the more based uh libertarian
yeah, I love that, okay.
Final question uh, because wegot another rest of the show to
do, I wanted to do a little bitof healing here on doll cast
today.

(02:31:29):
So, the same way that somepeople were showing you, some
were showing tweets out ofcontext that you had made.
Ben, I was in a tweet threadthree days ago where someone was
attacking my girl, kellycadigan, yeah, on twitter,
saying that she had an issuewith, uh, gay men with the

(02:31:49):
tweets she had put out.
So, kelly, I was wondering ifyou could just give Ben a little
bit of context.

ben ryan (02:31:56):
I don't even know what you're talking about.
So, kelly, I had never heard ofyou until this June when I saw
your video where you're like inthe car and you're saying all
gay men should transition.
Oh God, that was a joke thatwent very viral, and so I don't
know you.
I didn't know if you werejoking, and some people have
said that you are.
Um, I myself was very shockedby the video.

(02:32:17):
I thought it's very hurtful.
So if you were joking, okay,but so I would.
I would love to hear from youof, like, what you meant by that
video and how you would likepeople to have interpreted it.
What, what, you know, what?
Were you being ironic?
I don't even know it was.

kelly (02:32:31):
It was my response to kind of just the lgb drop the t
situation.
I just kind of, shortly afterthat video, I made like a whole
like stupid logo for like t dropthe g you know it's great, it's
never too late.
Um, just because that it wasjust my response to them, and
how foolish they sounded.
I obviously don't think all gaymen should transition.
I appreciate that, because outof context.

ben ryan (02:32:51):
I had no idea.
I don't know your generalpersona, so I didn't know that.
I was really very shocked.

Brianna (02:33:00):
So are we not going to Ben's house after the show?

ben ryan (02:33:05):
And we're going to tie you down.

kelly (02:33:08):
I thought it was valid because the LGB drop the T
movement.
They're essentially saying thatpeople like us, right?
Like we were making an ironicstatement Gay men Right Instead
of just like being trans.
And so I was like, okay, well,if you're going to say that, I'm
just going to say you guysshould be forced to be trans
women, especially if you'rebottoms, I appreciate the form
of performance art in that sense.

ben ryan (02:33:26):
So now I get it, you know, but at the time I really
didn't.
I don't know how you add thatlittle asterisk in the middle of
your video.
This is a joke, I'm beingironic to comment on the social
mores of our time.

kelly (02:33:38):
That's half the fun.
Half the fun is letting peoplethink it's real.

ben ryan (02:33:40):
You're a provoca-treese.

Brianna (02:33:43):
Okay.
To be fair, though, Ben, I'veknown a few gay men to have an
cervix sense of humor.
That's a little bit dark onoccasions.
I feel like kelly can make ajoke or two and it doesn't like
I really appreciate that now.

ben ryan (02:33:57):
I kind of like the video in a way, because I
appreciate that you were beingreally wicked and I I kind of
like that, that way of just likestirring the pot a bit.
So the way you were behaving,you came, you were tipper, you
were purposely coming across asan airhead, like the way you
were talking, you know.
And so now I understand thatyou were being really sardonic,
so I appreciate that.

kelly (02:34:18):
Yeah, I'm sorry that if you, if it came across in a way
that, like, we have a healing.

ben ryan (02:34:22):
I love this.
Wouldn't it be amazing if, likeAlejandro Caraballo, watched
this whole video and they'relike, no getting along.
He's not really a transphobe.
What will I do to destroy him?
Now?
You know it's kind of good, soI don't know All right Final
thoughts anybody?

Schyler (02:34:39):
I just, you know it saddens me that when people
think of the trans community,those are the names that come to
their mind.
Like I feel, like that's socommonly heard and like you
should be able.
We should want better researchin trans medicine, like in
gender medicine.
I want better research.
I want to know the people thatstand to benefit from this

(02:35:00):
transitional treatment, becausethere's too many transitioners
and they seem to be growing thatare coming in and saying, oh,
it's all facade, it's all wrong,it's just harmful to the body
and it's like look, I knowthere's risks to estrogen.
I researched those in depth.
That was the whole point oflike doing that, you know,
exploration before Itransitioned and I still wanted

(02:35:21):
this treatment and I fullyrecognize that, yeah, there may
be some harms long-term, but I'mstill happier and I would
rather choose this than I wouldhave before and I want that.

ben ryan (02:35:31):
You told yes, you felt the balance was on this end.

Schyler (02:35:34):
You know, you understood the risks, you know
right, because I had thatinformed yeah I was informed and
it's like that's actual gendermedicine, like info, informing
people and giving them a littlebit of breaks to like I hate to
say the word gatekeeping, but alittle bit of that is healthy,
it's good, and we got to getaway from this model of it, this

(02:35:54):
inevitable, unquestionableessence of gender identity and
people and you can't push backat all.
It's like no, you need to pushback.
That's what medicine is andit's helping people figure out
that process.

ben ryan (02:36:09):
I think the average person on the liberal side
doesn't understand that, indeed,the science is weak.
They think that that's just asmokescreen.
Or the science is weak foreverything Like yes, for a lot
of things that don't come withthese risks, because the risks
are so high the known risksabout infertility and sexual
dysfunction.
Therefore, that raises the bar,and I don't think people on the
left understand how uninvestedthe research endeavor is in

(02:36:33):
answering a lot of thesequestions.
They're not interested increating more effective
quote-unquote gatekeepingpsychosocial assessments is what
they're called.
In fact, they're interested indegrading them and getting rid
of them.
Boston Children's used to allot20 hours in 2007 to 2006 about
14 or so for the psychologiststo assess these kids and to

(02:36:55):
write the reports on them.
That got whittled down to twoand a half hours by 2018 and
this was kept secret until itcame out in a court case last
month.
And that's really telling.
When they're telling you,michael hobbs will go on his
podcast and say oh, there's noevidence.
Anyone's rushing these kids,the first clinic to ever do this

(02:37:15):
.
Boston children's is the mostprestigious pediatric clinic in
the world.
If not possibly in the world,it's definitely in the country.
If they're doing it in two anda half hours.
That's one.
That's one to our appointmentwith kids and then with their
parents.

Brianna (02:37:29):
I how can you not call that rushing?
It's amazing to me I I hearwhat you're saying about the
evidence that, ben, I feel likethis is put out there though to
like like it's not my fault,it's not the trans community's
fault, that for four years, themain people willing to do
research about this are shitty,underqualified grad students,

(02:37:53):
like doing surveys to pass outto undergrads, and that very
little nih money has come out ofhere to do hard studies like.
If anything this is.
I feel like it's twisted aroundus, this argument against the
trans community.
The way I interpret that isthis is how little anyone has
given a shit about us these arethe best people representing us.

ben ryan (02:38:14):
Thanks a lot, guys.

Brianna (02:38:15):
Yeah, I mean honestly it's.
It's like sometimes I I'm notgonna give his name, but there's
a mutual friend of ours andhe'll often put out, you know,
critiques about the, the levelof evidence-based medicine for
trans health care and like Iunderstand it, I hear you, but
like where the hell were you 40years ago when trans women could

(02:38:37):
have used this stuff?
we are out here.
We've been trying to surviveand many of us have not been
like for 40 years.
So like, like I wish you'd stoptalking not you, but I wish
people would stop talking aboutus Like we're just pulling this
out of nowhere, like no one hasbeen helping us.
It is insane.

taftaj (02:38:56):
Yeah, it's not an indictment on the trans
community.
That like it's really hard toget these studies and it's very
frustrating for all trans peoplebecause we want the strong
evidence.
However, it is because we wantpeople with gender dysphoria to
live happy, healthy.
Yeah, and you know, therapy isfully necessary and we need that

(02:39:20):
, plus transition, whatever itworks out to be.
We need to know that and itreally is just this like
activist group that does notbenefit from helping us.
They benefit from continuallypushing a certain conversation
and narrative and attacking anddestroying people like you, when
you're willing to, like, maybe,raise a flag, quite frankly, in

(02:39:44):
defense of us and in defense ofpeople who might end up as
detransitioners.
We need people like you,frankly, the only kind of people
who I respect, who are willingto actually take a stand for
something real.

ben ryan (02:39:59):
It's amazing to me, this group of women, to have
such a nuanced conversation likethis.
This is what we need all overthe place.
I really hope people watch thisvideo.
I think people would get a lotof it For one thing, just
witnessing people having adialogue.
We're not strangling each otheracross the airwaves no.
But, granted, we also don't havepoints of view.

(02:40:20):
If Alejandra Caraballo werehere, we would have a different.
It would not be interesting.
I would totally do that.
That was one of the things Ihad been just discussing with
Ari before she flew up at me,and I blew up at her in the
spring.
I had just reached out to herand said why don't we have some
sort of a webcast where we havepeople of different points of

(02:40:42):
view?
She was not okay with that.
I don't want to divulge justtotally private conversation,
but she turned it down.
Let's just put it that way andjust totally private
conversation, but she turned itdown.

Brianna (02:40:57):
Let's just put it that way, and that's a shame, because
that's what we need and not,you know, character
assassinations on twitter.
Yeah, I mean, I do want to say,ben, like I don't think I would
have alejandro on this show,like when we were, when we were
designing the show one of thethings we decided like as a
group is we didn't want it to beshouty like I love me some
destiny I watch plenty of those,but the world does not need
another like drama-based, likeconflict heavy yeah, um, you

(02:41:21):
know show about trans issues andI have people that reach out to
me all the time asking to be onhere and I look at their social
media and I ask for video clipsand I'm discussing this and I'm
like you can't be an adult, andthat goes both ways, like for
the gender critical side and thetrans activist side.
So if you're going to bescreaming or you can't act like

(02:41:42):
an adult and defend yourpositions, this is not a show
for you.

ben ryan (02:41:46):
Like, like would you have n Nancy Mace on.

Schyler (02:41:49):
Oh, I'm sorry, oh, nancy.

Brianna (02:41:51):
Mace yeah 100%.

ben ryan (02:41:54):
Yeah, she's quite the performance we actually talked
about that in our first segmentyeah.

Schyler (02:42:04):
Yeah, and I want to stress too we're not afraid to
talk with people that don'tagree with us.
Actually, we think there's alot of value in that, because it
makes it more enriching.
Yeah, it's gotta be good faith,right.
Like we're all respectful here,we're all adults, Like we want
to treat each other in that,when that way, and we want to
have good dialogue, we don'twant to be name calling you know

(02:42:25):
whatever it's called where youthat fallacy, where you're
attacking the person ad hominem,that whole thing.
Like we're.
We're trying to get like gooddiscussions across, to get all
the different viewpoints to showlike what, who is best served
by gender medicine and what isgood medicine look like?
What does good trans rightsactually look like?
Because this is something I'vebeen thinking about more and

(02:42:47):
more as I'm seeing the clashbetween women's rights and then
issues with children, and it'slike what is really good trans
rights look like and I likehaving those dialogues and
seeing what others think.

taftaj (02:42:59):
I mean, look how Kelly or Brianna disagree with me.
It's like it's so exactly.
But I think it's so valuable,like love, when they do that,
because that is how we createsomething that is better than
like just my you know beliefs orjust theirs.
It's greater than the sum ofits parts, and I think it's so

(02:43:23):
important to have theconversation fundamentally
predicated on a respect and adesire for truth, and it's hard
to do that if you're talking tosomeone who's totally dug in, um
, who's willing to use thosepersonal attacks so a little bit
more interesting when theydisagree, you know if I

ben ryan (02:43:41):
hear rs wish or disagree with andrew sullivan.
I love that.
You know, one of the things Ijust like the most about michael
hobbs's podcast is it's filledwith this yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
, yeah.
They always agree with oneanother and that's just
paralytically boring for onething.

Brianna (02:43:57):
Well, it's very easy to talk to you with respect, taff,
because I adore you, I thinkyou're literally the best.
It's 10% that I disagree withyou on.
I don't want to disagreebecause I know, but you know
there it is but no, it's good,yeah, yeah, you can disagree
with that?

kelly (02:44:14):
disrespecting no ideal human interaction, you know so
all right, so we could do that,though would she be able to have
an argument in good?

ben ryan (02:44:22):
faith because I feel like I would be very interested
to know that would be veryinteresting to see that
conversation let me work onmagic.
We'll see what happens reachout to her like that could be
really big if you got her onhere, you would get a lot of
views.

Brianna (02:44:34):
I know a lot of people.
Ben, that's all I'm going tosay All right.
I think that's a good place toend it.
Every night, Ben, where canpeople follow?

ben ryan (02:44:43):
your work.
Okay, so my sub stack isbenryansubstackcom.
X in Blue Sky, ben Ryan Writer.
My website is benryannet.
Thanks a lot.

Brianna (02:44:54):
I want to thank you.
You wrote the best descriptionof me in one of the pieces you
ever wrote.
I really hope someone goes andedits it into Wikipedia.

ben ryan (02:45:07):
Where you're.
Like you know, brianna Wu isnot here to make friends.
Well, what I said was you knowyou could use that old adage
about reality TV that she's nothere to make friends.
Well, what I said was you knowyou could use that, that old
adage about, um, that a realitytv, that she's not here to make
friends, but she is.
I mean, you're, you're tryingto bridge these gulfs, and
sometimes that's not possible,mind you, and because you say
things sort of from the middle,you offend people on either side
and that alienates them.
And what can you do?
But like.

(02:45:27):
Ultimately, your centralpurpose right now is to use the
voice that you still have.
Considering you have thishealth condition, it's just like
.
So it's so sadly poetic isstealing your voice, like you're
in a rush to like.
Use that while you still haveit.
I think that's really beautifulthank you, ben.

Brianna (02:45:46):
I appreciate that.
I think what you're doing isvery helpful too, and I think
you're one of the best alliesthe trans community has, and I
hope every single trans personwatches this and gets the fuck
off your back because it's notappropriate.

ben ryan (02:46:02):
It's part of the job, but it's unpleasant.
It doesn't have to be aspersonal I know where my heart
lies, you know, and I think, atthe core of this, if you are a
decent human being, what you sayis especially about the kids
issue, like how do we best carefor these kids?
These kids are here, they'revery distressed in different
ways and we want to have asystem that can best care for

(02:46:22):
them, and the best system is onewhere there's daylight and
transparency, and we've not seenthat and we've seen the w path
has not been transparent andbehind the scenes has been
manipulating their guidelinesunscientifically to win court
battles and to get insurancecoverage, and that they
themselves are fully aware ofthe weakness of the science and

(02:46:44):
that that's not just a trifle,as it would be if you gave a kid
some Tylenol.

Brianna (02:46:48):
Oh my goodness, all right, you're going to have to
come back on dog house.
This is not the last timeyou're here yeah, this is
amazing.

ben ryan (02:46:55):
Thank you so much I'm really glad, kelly, that I
figured that out, that you werejoking and and now I think it's
kind of awesome.
Sometimes I like to stir thepot too, so it was a kind of
performance art.
That is was very political, sonow I find it fascinating.

kelly (02:47:12):
I'm glad we sorted that out.

ben ryan (02:47:14):
I really did.
I was actually very upset.
That game was hilarious.
It is hilarious.
Now I understand the context.

Schyler (02:47:23):
I didn't.

ben ryan (02:47:23):
I'd never heard of her , so that was why I just like I
was like who is this little Alot?

Schyler (02:47:28):
of people took it and blew it out of proportion, out
of context.

ben ryan (02:47:32):
So like, yeah, it's like how could I not, since I
didn't know you.
So that's kind of like what thewall you're up against when
you're trying to do that is.
If people don't know who youare, they don't get the joke you
know Amazing.

Brianna (02:47:46):
All right, all right.

Schyler (02:47:52):
Thanks for coming, ben.
I'm going to remove you fromstage now.
Talk to you soon.
We have that.
Woo, alright, yep.
Thank you all, everyone fortuning in and listening in and
hanging out with us today onDollcast, we had an amazing
guest with Benjamin Ryan.
We were so blessed to have himhere.
So much fun and honestly, itwas amazing to go over his

(02:48:13):
incredible work and just have anormal conversation and chill
out with him.
So if you're interested in morethings like that, don't forget
to follow us on YouTube atdollcastr8n that's dollcast-r8n
or you can check us out onTikTok at just dollcast for more
content and updates.
Until next time, stay fabulousand don't let anyone dim your

(02:48:36):
light.
So today's episode is, uh, taffterminated terminated kelly,
today's episode is terminatedand brie.
Today's episode is terminatedthat's right.

Brianna (02:48:50):
Today's episode is terminated and brie.

Schyler (02:48:51):
Today's episode is terminated.

Brianna (02:48:52):
That's right, today's episode is terminated oh my god,
what a great show.
Oh my god.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}E1x04: The Plot to Destroy Ben Ryan

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

E1x04: The Plot to Destroy Ben Ryan

Stuff You Should Know