E2x02 "This isn't meant to hurt anyone's feelings" Lisa Elizabeth from Timcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brianna (00:03):
Okay, welcome to Dollcast With.

Taf (00:10):
Kelly Cadigan.

Lisa (00:11):
I know you guys are going to tell me I'm crazy but I think
all gay men would benefit froma gender transition.
Rihanna.

Brianna (00:17):
Wu.

Lisa (00:18):
Do you know who Rihanna Wu is?

Sky (00:19):
It was people on the line.

Brianna (00:21):
I just asked you about Rihanna Wu.
I don't remember who she is now.

Sky (00:24):
Skylar.

Brianna (00:25):
Bogart.

Sky (00:26):
More confused on girls or boys would be a better fit for
me, and when you're bisexual andyou have the potential for
either, you've got to parse thatout a little bit.

Taf (00:34):
And Taj Tuff, having your story heard, having people
empathize with you on that kindof political level, I think it's
really hard to do.

Brianna (00:43):
It's the Dollcast.
Mostly normal women.

Sky (00:51):
Hey there, welcome back to Dollcast.
I'm your host, skylar, and herewe are again with our fabulous
co-hosts Brianna Wu and Taftaj.
How are y'all doing today?

Brianna (01:03):
I think the show is going to take this time I have a
good feeling.

Taf (01:07):
We had a few issues, for sure.

Sky (01:09):
For those of our listeners here.
We just had some technicalissues and had to redo our show.
So yeah, you know real Mondaymorning vibes.

Brianna (01:18):
At least we figured it out like two minutes into the
show and not when it was over.
So that's like good.

Sky (01:24):
Yes, huge shout out to Brie for her monitoring.
Yes, careful, yeah, careful.
Watching, yeah.
So we have a lot of differentfun topics today, and we also
have a very fun guest that I'mexcited to talk with and ask
some questions to.
First off, how are y'all doingthis holiday season?

(01:48):
I mean, I don't know abouty'all, but I've been crazy busy.
How?

Taf (01:54):
about you all?
Yeah, definitely Super busy.
Just finished the, which now Idrive, I woke up and started
recording the podcast.

Brianna (02:06):
And you were listening to the Bible as you're going
cross country.
That is crazy.

Taf (02:08):
I was this was the whole conversation that we had in
those two minutes about the bookof Judges and the song of
Solomon, and it was, it wasfantastic.

Brianna (02:19):
You'll have to tune into every episode to catch
something as good as that so Iremember when I was shooting
song of You'll have to tune intoevery episode to catch
something as good as that.
So I remember when I wasshooting Song of Solomon as a
kid and I'm like, oh my God,this is like basically porn
parts of it.

Taf (02:36):
It's kind of hot.
Yes, it's poetic.
I was definitely jotting downnotes so I could write something
like that for my girlfriend.
It's very nice and it remindsme sort of english romantic
poetry.
I'm fascinated by the romanticera and literature and art and

(02:57):
just like the passion, the, thesensuality that comes through is
quite good oh I was a fan, andbook of judges is not like that.
It's uh, no, it's um.
The language is quiteantiquated and also it's.

Brianna (03:11):
It's quite intense and grisly yeah, have you ever read
axe, which is basically asocialist tract?
No, it is.
It's full of like admonitionsto like give away all your money
to the poor.
Like it's hardcore, like you'relike.
Oh, they did not believe in amarket capitalist economy back

(03:32):
in the day.

Taf (03:34):
Yeah, definitely not.
I mean, it's shocking to readhistory and see like the
mishmash of political ideologies.
I was reading about the SicilianVespespers, which is this event
where, like the sicilians roseup and they killed, like a ton
of frenchmen, they're putting up, like you know, october, 7th
numbers in the you know, 1300s,and they were ruled by this guy

(03:56):
named like charles of anjou andhe, um he was like this autistic
, like semi-socialist, um, likefree trade guy, super, like
weird, interesting ideology, umthat just like doesn't map on at
all to anything in thepolitical current political oh

(04:17):
my goodness wow.

Sky (04:19):
Well, speaking of political drama, I mean, have y'all been
tuning into the h1b debate withbus and though, yeah, oh right,
oh my gosh, I've got.
Yeah, where does it start?
I mean, to an extent this wassort of predictable, at least to
me, like I wouldn't say thisspecific area, but the conflict

(04:40):
between, like, the tech rightand the mega right.
There are some like inherentconflicts that I think are new
with this political cycle, thatweren't present back in 2016
when, like Trump was kind ofrunning very much solely on like
the MAGA.
He was sort of creating theMAGA.
Um, like you know, right to anextent of like just the make

(05:01):
America very pro-nationalistsegment of the population is
honing that into the energy ofhis bombastic, unapologetic tone
, I guess you could say, withthe way he presents and speaks.
But now in this election, youhave a lot more moderates that

(05:21):
got pulled in and you have havelike tech leaders like elon musk
, great example, and you knowthat are getting bought in on
this vision.
But that complicates thenarrative for the right now and
there's infighting.
That's happening, um, and it'slike endless entertainment on
twitter yeah, it's been quitespectacular to watch.

Taf (05:42):
I mean, it's been sort of tragic, I think, for me as well,
because I definitely perceivethe tech right, which I am much
more friendly to, as having lostthis sort of first round of
infighting.
So, yeah, it's a bit rough tosee.
I just feel like theimmigration arguments that I'm

(06:03):
hearing are not very good andit's a reminder that Elon Musk,
ideologically, is really just asort of like naive libertarian
and so his view on the worlddoes not factor in like deep
complexities of politics, likethe deep complexities of

(06:28):
politics.
And yeah, you really see thatwhen he's like sort of citing
h1b visas and claiming that like, oh, we need this for the top,
like 0.1 engineering talent andthat sort of like doesn't really
represent, like you know, thecohort of people that are coming
in on h1b is and vivac is likejumping in and he's, you know,
writing this screed that is, youknow, quite insulting to a lot
of americans and you know ittotally just like plays into

(06:51):
this argument that, like indiansdon't have the same values as
americans, because he's like,yeah, we don't have the same
values and also our values arebetter.
So it's like, of course, he'sjust like throwing gasoline on
the fire.

Sky (07:03):
yeah, what do you Like?
Culture of mediocrity, likethat's what he basically said of
America.

Taf (07:09):
Because the whole problem is that, like these flyover
Americans, these hobbits, thesered staters, they just want to
grill and they don't want theirway of life to be, like,
affected or changed.
But of course, you know, vivekis coming in here and he's like
actually you do need to changeyour way of life because it's
like not cutting it.
And so the reality is that,like they don't need to change,

(07:31):
it's like totally fine if youjust want to grill and you don't
want to, like participate inhustle culture or whatever, um,
and you can have a society wherepeople have different cultural
values and yet coexist thisentirely possible, and yet it
seems like that, as a value, hassort of been lost on a lot of

(07:52):
americans, both left and right I, I, I don't, I mean I agree and
I disagree, tath and I kind ofwant to go through it like look,
obviously the racism of maga isreally, really hard to watch.

Brianna (08:06):
Like there's a lot of them that just have contempt for
Indians and yeah, they're nothype, and I don't think any of
us would agree.
There is a racially chargedelement to Trump's coalition,
but it would be a hugeoverstatement to say that's all
Republicans.
At the same time, like there isa discussion to be had about

(08:28):
these trade deals in ourimmigration policy and what that
means for working people.
You know, I think in retrospect, I think y'all are too young to
really remember Ross Perotrunning in, I think 1992.
I mean, he famously said youknow there was going to be, as
we have, this trade deal withMexico, it was going to hollow

(08:50):
out a lot of working class jobs,and he was 100% right on that.
So I think, like, when you'relooking at the H-1B system, two
things are true Like I know fora fact I've seen this in the
tech industry to bring in cheaplabor so people don't have to
pay like a full, like engineersalary, and that just simply has

(09:14):
been done.
At the same time, like myvision for America is to have
the strongest economy, with thevery best people here working on
the coolest things and livingin Boston.
You know we have tech andbiotech are our two biggest
fields and for that we've got tobring in, like the top look at
the Moderna vaccine, forinstance We've got to have

(09:38):
people that can, you know,understand the lipid
nanoparticle delivery system.
We've got to have people thatunderstand machine learning and
deep learning.
So, yeah, we've got to have asystem where we can bring in
elites to fill these jobs.
At the same time, we've got tounderstand that the excesses of
this system and the Americansystem overall do tend towards,

(10:01):
like lowering wages for workers.

Taf (10:03):
And I don't think that's borne out in the data at all.
Sure, I think that's it's a big.
I think it's a misconceptionthat you see where people
believe the economy is sort of azero sum and that if you bring
in, you know, low skilledworkers or high skilled workers,
that depresses the wages forthose groups.
I don't think that is shown.

(10:24):
I think that what happens isyou bring in more of these
workers and people end upcreating new businesses and new
opportunities open up, and thatis what always happens.
And I think that we have to getpast the zero sum thinking.
You see, in the left wing, whenthey talk about like you know,
oh, profit is theft or whatever,and you know they get really
angry about the capitalists.
Or on the left wing, when theytalk about like you know, oh,
profit is theft or whatever, andyou know they get really angry

(10:46):
about the capitalists.
Or on the right wing, when theytalk about like, oh, these
immigrants are taking our jobsthere.
I just don't think they are notat all.
And so you know, I thinkthere's real cultural issues and
maybe there's like there'scrime and whatnot to discuss,
and those are real issues.
But I think that the economicargument is not very sound for

(11:07):
this.

Brianna (11:08):
Yeah, do you think there's a trend of outsourcing
engineers in the United States?

Taf (11:13):
I think there is, but I think immigration is not causing
engineers to live in the UnitedStates.

Brianna (11:18):
Sure, it's two different things.
Look, it's one of these thingswhere I think the effects of it
are overstated and I was lookingat this data yesterday the same
way that you were.
So, like, if I have to pick ateam, I'm obviously
pro-immigration.
I think one of the ways I'vesoftened on this issue is I

(11:40):
think it's really easy for me tosay I'm in a house, I make a
really good living.
I think that there is a lot ofresentment with people.
That's built up and, true ornot, it's giving trump like
power.
So I don't see like any issue,even if the effect variable is
small, like it is with transchildren.

(12:00):
I think actually it's a goodanalogy.
Just because an effect ofsomething isn't very big,
there's an emotional cost tosomething and it's something
that feeling fair to people isvery, very powerful.
So I don't think it hurts it tolike treat those fears
seriously and to look at waysthat the system can be improved,
if that makes sense.

Taf (12:22):
Yeah, I mean it's very common, that's so compelling
People people have bad beliefsabout things like people don't
really understand climate changeor economics or the covid
vaccine or whatever, and it'svery frustrating that these
people influence politicsdespite their.
Can I just like?

Sky (12:39):
jump in and say like this is something I really found true
when I was studying economicsat undergrad is that the
evidence, or what the data says,very rarely actually lines up,
in my view, with what thenarratives are that really
resonate with people.

Taf (12:55):
Yes, and people believe that like inflation was rampant
leading up to the election.
Yes, it wasn't at all like itwas declining, so five sessions.

Sky (13:07):
So there's this like absolute disconnect and I've
kind of I've come to respectwhat brie is saying about this
in the terms of like you have tohave an effective narrative to
shape that opinion and bringpeople into understanding your
perspective on this, and thatthat's I see like Musk sort of
trying that, like he throws offa couple examples on X with his

(13:28):
posts, he's like drops a couplenames and for sure there are
stories of you know, immigrantsthat did come on an H-1B visa,
like I think of Sun Microsystemsand I forget the guy's name,
but he came here on an H-1B visa, started that company and it no
longer exists but it was widelysuccessful.

(13:48):
I think it helped pioneer Javaand some technology related to
how computers work and filenetwork sharing systems and
things like that.
Anyways, oracle buys it andOracle's massive Tons and tons
of jobs.
So like to say that there isn't.
I think there could be a betterjob done by the tech right on

(14:08):
shaping those effectivenarratives of this working,
because I am in the same camp as, like, pro-immigration here.
I just think there's like anissue with better narratives.

Taf (14:18):
Yeah, I agree, which is what's been really frustrating,
I think.
Yeah, I mean I don't know.
Yeah, I think we're just notmaking good arguments right now
and I would say that we're notaddressing, like the real
problems of immigrationrhetorically.
But you know, I just think thatthose are more so cultural
issues and it's pretty hard togovern for a diverse body of

(14:42):
people who have radicallydifferent views on how things
ought to be run, unless you'reable to recognize that people
really are different in culturalvalues and what they expect
from the world is different.
You know, if you have a societyand it's all like you know
british people who are strictlyquiet and polite and whatever,
they're going to line up in nicelines, nice cues, they're not

(15:05):
going to play like music on themetro, station, subway and
they're going to be like sort ofquiet and polite, you don't
necessarily need laws againstyou know music.
But if you bring people from adifferent cultural group, they
might just not have that samecultural background and so
suddenly it becomes necessary tocreate these rules for

(15:25):
regulating public spaces and theresult is this tension where
people just they recognize thatpeople have different values,
different from themselves, andthat results in different
expectations about how thingsought to be run.
People don't like when you haveto institute these rules, either
like.
But if people don't like that,they don't like the you have to

(15:46):
institute these rules, eitherLike British people don't like
that.
They don't like the encroachingauthoritarianism necessary to
maintain balance and order in aracially diverse society, and so
you have to have some abilityto recognize that people are
different and legislate aroundthem.
What I see on the progressiveside of things, even like the
naive, libertarian side ofthings, is this inability to

(16:06):
understand that people arereally very different in so many
ways and you have to work withthem.
So, yeah, I mean I thinkthere's problems with
immigration.
I would just say that stealingjobs is not really one of them,
at least I don't think it's oneof the most minimal ones and so
it's been frustrating to havethis sort of like proxy debate

(16:26):
about immigration througheconomics and, you know,
promptly losing because we can'tlike actually have a discussion
about the problems.

Brianna (16:34):
No, I certainly agree with that.
I think that you know.
I also think there's like anational security argument here
for all of these policies Right.
I mean like look, for instance,you have my friend Palmer Lucey,
right, you know he's working ona lot of national security
stuff right now.
As far as like a virtual borderwall, and I think this makes a

(16:55):
lot more sense, like I want theSouthern Border Patrol because I
worry about sex trafficking andfentanyl being smuggled across,
and you know, like there was astory from the Bush era about
radiological material beingsmuggled into this country to do
a dirty job it makes a lot ofsense to me.
Like I really dislike it whenDemocrats talk about that like

(17:16):
it's not important.
At the same time, like a wallfrom sea to shining sea is not
really an effective thing.
So if you need people out thereto develop that technology, we
need to be able to go get thevery best ML people in the
entire world.
We need deep learning people,we need drone experts, of which

(17:36):
are mostly in China right now.
There's this host of likespecialties that we need and we
just don't generate those inthis country at the level that
we need to to lead the world'seconomy.
And something I think when ourguest today gets here, a really
big difference I have with ourguest Lisa today is I do want

(17:59):
America that's more engaged innational security, and one of
the really big reasons for thatis, if we are not in an area,
then India and China are goingto rush into those areas and
it's going to reflect theirvalues and not ours.
And in that same way, if wecan't be bringing the top

(18:20):
experts in the entire world herein machine learning, ai, deep
learning, all these emergingtechnologies, other countries
are going to develop their ownSilicon Valley and that's going
to be devastating to the UnitedStates economy.
So I think there's like amiddle ground to be rode here,

(18:41):
and I think to have one of thedifferences in our perspective
here and maybe this is entirelytoo charitable on my part, but
it feels to me like for Trump1.0, I really dug my heels in.
I was one of those Democratswho was just like we're going to
fight him on literallyeverything, and I think this
time what makes more sense to meis to think a little bit more

(19:02):
strategically about it, becausethese same voters that feel that
these are issues like they'renot going to be convinced with
the chart that we put up onmsnbc right, we need to really
talk to them and make them feellike we're we're standing for
them.
Just does that kind of makesense to you?

Taf (19:20):
yeah, well, there's this, there's this conversation about
strategy and rhetoric, for sureyeah, I don't have I.

Sky (19:28):
I respect that because the game of the politician is
rhetoric like very much, so yeahit's not my game um.

Taf (19:37):
I think I would just end up losing eventually, so yeah, no,
that's fair.

(22:21):
Um so it's very, it's verychallenging, it is very hard,
yeah, and there's not a lot ofincentive to like search out for
economic facts where mostpeople, right, they're simply
just you know, let's say thatyou are some like MAGA guy,
right, like you work as you know, a middle class job, you're
like a plumber or something.
You don't have a ton of freetime and you're faced with the

(22:43):
choice like, okay, I could spendlike two years just like
learning about economic policyand economic data and reading
studies, and at the end of allof that I would have like a good
understanding of theimmigration debate, a deep
understanding of that debate.
And what does that get him?
Like, well, now he can vote inlike a slightly more informed

(23:05):
way, but he's not writingeconomic policy, he's not
working at an economic thinktank or as an economist in any
sense, and so really theincentive to do all of that
research is basically zero.
And yet he has a sort of ideaabout how these things work and
he has an idea about competition.
And well, if laborers come inand they start working a job

(23:30):
that is similar to mine, thenI'm going to be competing with
them.
That idea is simple andpowerful and it's not going to
be easily defeated, and so Ithink what we have here across

(24:01):
so many different topics theclimate or what have you is just
an information problem, wherethe people and either there
should be some sort oftechnocratic elite ruling things
, or a monarch or a CEO orsomething Right, and we need to
solve the information problemthrough our system.
But unfortunately we don't livein that world, and so you have
to play this game of likerhetoric and cajoling,

(24:47):
no-transcript, persuading theestablishment class.
Is that what we're talkingabout?
The narratives, and it's.

Brianna (24:58):
It's sort of nonsense, because we're a race with
reality and reality always winsseason two, episode two, the
episode, the task to stay fordemocracy, not to stay in
democracy, finally come out.
I just hate populism.
There was a Wall Street Journalpiece that came out just a few
days ago that was all about likeBiden's presidency and why he

(25:21):
was so senile and how he wasable to hide it for so long.
It was just brutal.
It was absolutely brutal.
He didn't even meet with likehis defense secretaries or his
commerce secretary and just likehis people.
It really showed to get to yourpoint half.
It really showed like thistechnocratic elite that's
actually controlling things.

(25:42):
I'm not talking state, butthere is a machine for making
these decisions that I think inone way, is to the Democrats'
favor that we bring in peoplethat are very good at running
that machine.
I think Biden was aconsequential president, but I
think the American people werevoting to kind of throw a wrench

(26:03):
into that machine and break itbecause of perceptions about the
economy that I think all of usagree, may or may not be so true
, completely agree.
Yeah, of Dahlkast is I havebeen in the middle of an all-out

(26:29):
culture war for a decade oftreating the other side like
they're Satan and trying todefeat them as a way to get
public policy, and there's notever going to be a future where
we destroy people in the countryor vote them out.
That don't feel like theAmerican system is serving them.
So what is the answer there?
I'm not trying to message itand I'm not trying to hide my

(26:51):
intentions here.
I'm just asking reallygenuinely this is our way of
government?
What is the way forward?
Because something has got tochange here.

Sky (27:02):
Right and I think I mean that's sort of like what ties in
when you were talking aboutBiden and, like you know,
increasingly senile, likeappearance and like what was
kind of coming through.
I think it kind of dropped theveil in a way and in a way that
wasn't anticipated for Americans, that was like hey, who's

(27:24):
really running policy here?
Who's really making decisions?
It's not who we elected, it'snot who the people chose, it's
this establishment behind them.
And when it came to theelection, just like you were
talking about there, I felt likethis was a common issue.
I, in my friends talking aboutKamala, was like, you know, she
just kind of bought and paid forby the Democrats, like does she

(27:47):
actually have any of her ownoriginal ideas or thoughts on
these things?
Like it wasn't necessarily.
It wasn't that I felt like shedidn't, it was that her
messaging was way too scriptedand controlled.
And it's a classic problem thatI'm seeing a lot more with the
Democrats and the Republicansand even though I think at the
end of the day, both parties arebought and paid for ultimately

(28:08):
with their candidates, I thinkTrump at least could sort of
like fake and run on the oh yeah, drain the swamp, you know,
like, et cetera, like, at leasthe tried to look like he was
opposing the establishment, eventhough in reality, I mean, he's
just giving money to his, hiscronies.
Ultimately he's the cronycapitalist.
Um, when it comes to like apolitician's at least from my

(28:31):
point of view, when I've seenthe policies he puts through but
at least he tries to say he'sfor the people, whereas kamala
just the distance was just toogreat, and I mean trump is very
authentic, if anything.

Taf (28:44):
he sort of says what's on his mind.
People can see that becausehe's willing to say inflammatory
things.
They know he's not, you know,just feeding them another line,
another bullshit, you knowtalking point.
Because he has no patience forthose things and he really
sticks his foot in his mouth sooften that if he was like trying

(29:05):
tactical, he'd be like you know, he must just not have any team
or anything behind him, right?
No one who is trying to betactical acts like trump, and so
people can very clearly seethat trump is you know authentic
, you know hate it or love it,so people like him for that.
But also like the good thingabout trump, at least from the
conservative or from theperspective of like sort of

(29:26):
technocratic person, is thatTrump, he has his pet issues and
then he can be sort of likepushed around on other things.
There was like a statement fromtrump where trump was
ultimately backing elon on thisand being like no, it is

(29:48):
important that we have h1bsystems that are working to get,
you know, workers into thecountry and making our economy
stronger, and so like.
Despite it all trump's likeboomerism and narcissism of just
like not really deeply caringabout whatever is being hashed
out on twitter, it results in afavorable outcome which is like

(30:10):
okay, well, he is, at the end ofthe day, he was in support of
it sort of like technocratic.
Um yeah, he was.
He was in favor of elon musk'slike position.
He sort of came out on his sidenow, that's not to say like
trump isn't sort of isolationist, protectionist type who really
does like have policies in mindwhich are going to hurt the US

(30:32):
economy, despite all theirattempts to make things smooth
and based on logic andrationality.
There has to be some give inthe system and it is, you know,
the American voter, asmisinformed as they are going to

(30:55):
get policies that they like.

Brianna (30:58):
So how do you I've always wanted to ask you this
how do you kind of square thecircle between like suspicion of
the circle between likesuspicion of like I think we
share the assessment of theweakness of democracy in this
moment, like a question I'vereally increasingly been asking
myself and again, this is goodfaith is like it really seems to

(31:22):
me that democracy plus theinformation age seems like a
combination that's very hard toovercome.
Because if you look throughAmerican history at you know the
Hirsch empire, like you providethe pictures, I'll provide the
war.
Or you know I live here inBoston.
It's like Samuel Adams was aradical propagandist that just

(31:44):
wrote a bunch of bullshit andpassed it out from his tavern to
people.
Right, like democracy was hardenough to work in those days.
Like if you have the history ofthe Alien Sedition Acts today,
like I know firsthand from myjob, like I can go into.
Like if I'm trying to getsomeone elected, so if I'm

(32:17):
trying to get someone elected, Idid a series of ads where I
literally went into a schooldistrict and I found parents and
I found out which school theirchildren went to and I showed a
picture of that school and I hadmy candidate saying I went to
blah blah blah school the otherday and and we're going to get
money for them and it's going tobe great, like that's how
micro-targeted you can get inyour messaging.
And it's really hard for me tothink, like at a certain point,
like this is large dataaggregation and micro-targeting,

(32:40):
like with messages.
Like how is the theory ofdemocracy supposed to work in
this environment when everysingle incentive is to just tell
people what they want to hear?
Like if you look at the transchannels out there, a lot of
them we do a sophisticated showthat's really thinking about

(33:00):
issues.
A lot of them are just reactcontent to whatever stupid thing
happened that day and it's avery successful formula.
So how do we kind of squarethat circle and still believe in
democracy when it seems likeit's fundamentally working less
and less with this technologyage that we're in?

Taf (33:30):
Yeah, it's a difficult question.
Maybe the strongest argumentfor democracy is that there
aren't a ton of other goodsystems.
This is the Churchill quote,which is, like you know,
democracy is failures.
Conceptually, it seems to workout, and America is like the
strongest country in the worldand has all of these good things

(33:52):
going for it.
So, on one hand, you have thisvery deep informational problem,
which is that, like voters arenot really incentivized to make
decisions based on the facts andyet somehow that gets filtered
through the system and whatoutputs like works, and this is
kind of like mysterious in a way.
I think it's, you know it's it'sfor the exact reason which you

(34:14):
know, more populist people hateour system, which is, when you
look at policies, um, that areimplemented, it seems like
politicians are about six timesas responsive to wealthy people
and wealthy people's intereststhan people who are not wealthy
and are not donating a ton totheir campaigns, and it seems

(34:37):
like that tracks pretty closelywith campaign donations.
So it seems like people aremostly just like responsive to
money as politicians are, andalso people with money tend to
have a better understanding ofwhat is going on with the
economy.
They have a lot more stake inthese things so like it really
matters if you run a businesselon musk does that relies on

(35:00):
engineers, if you are able toget those engineers.
And so elon musk is willing toput in a lot of effort and a lot
of money to get Trump's ear andto tell him like, hey, this is
what's happening withimmigration and this is why it's
good to have more immigrationfrom these engineers, right?
And so the result is that likeokay, well, maybe then we get

(35:22):
immigration policy which isbalanced between the interests
of people who don't reallyunderstand what's going on with
immigration or have like someidea that's flawed, and then
people who elon are like elonmusk, who really just understand
one part of it, which is theeconomic part, and the result is
kind of like decent.
Um, so you know, I think thatpractically our democracy works,

(35:46):
but it works kind of throughsmoke and mirrors and through
these channels and people likeBreonna or Elon Musk, and
they're willing to play the gameof politics and they play it
well.

Sky (36:02):
I see, yeah, I, I almost take issue with the framing of,
like our country as being ademocracy.
I just just like who's going todo the least damage to our
country in the at the end of theday?
But I'm left wondering, like,okay, so now I'm going to go
cast my vote, and so aremillions of other Americans, and
at the end of the day there's achance that the candidate that

(36:23):
gets the most votes doesn't evenbecome, doesn't even get

(36:48):
elected, because there's a layerof, you know, republican
representation happening as well, with the um, um, the uh, oh,
my god, the electoral college,and so like that whole layer
even obfuscates the popular voteto an extent.
So it's like how much can weactually say our country is
really a democracy from thispoint of view, and so so I don't
know.
There's a whole lot of thatgoing on.

Lisa (37:08):
Hey, welcome, I'm so sorry , my child just like threw up
and then my husband came andtook them out of the house and
I'm like I'm never normally late, but it's the crazy home from
school.

Brianna (37:20):
You saved our bacon today.
Don't worry about it.

Lisa (37:24):
I'm so happy to be here.

Brianna (37:25):
Thank you for having me .
Do you want to introduce herSkye?

Sky (37:29):
Oh yeah, totally yeah, it's a light intro.

Lisa (37:33):
So I'm Lisa.
I have worked on the Hill forabout 12 years.
I currently book as a bookproducer Tim Poole for his
culture work show and sometimesfor IRL and I've been in
politics for seemingly forever.
I hate it now.
I'd rather just be happy andstay at home, mom life or

(37:55):
whatever.
But here we are.
So that's me.
I mean there's not really muchgoing on here.
Let me just fix myself.
I look so retarded right now.
Okay, you look great, you lookfine, you look great, so anyway.
So, but thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

Brianna (38:08):
Are you kidding me?
You are one.
I think it's so interestingthat they're ostensibly
progressives, that I agree witha lot on policy.
But I feel like we've beenfriends just because we don't
have to agree on stuff andyou've always been very kind to
me.
Really, everybody over at Tim'sshow has just always been
really wonderful to me.
Really everybody over at Tim'sshow has just always been really
wonderful to me.

(38:29):
So I don't know, we werelooking for a guest today.
We had someone cancel and Icalled you and you said yes.
So thank you for coming on.

Lisa (38:38):
No, I appreciate it, we get along, I think, because it's
not in anybody's best interestto be arguing or fighting or
hating everybody.
I mean there's definitely.
I mean I, I do make outrageoustweets and I'm like, oh my god,
I hate liberals, but like I hatethe intolerant psycho ones,
like my neighbors that liveright next door to me, like I
hate that, that won't thatrefuse to say hi to me, no

(38:58):
matter how many times I say hi,like I hate those people.
I do.
I don't really like fat people,but other than that, we're good
.

Brianna (39:05):
I don't think I'm an intolerant liberal.

Lisa (39:09):
I hope I'm not.
I don't think you're right.

Brianna (39:10):
No, no, so I remember when we were first.
You're booking me on Timcast.
I want to just get right intothis for the first time.
Uh, you know you were tellingme that you were not super on
board with trans rights, so Ikind of just want to get into

(39:30):
that on the show Like what areyou thinking?
What are you thinking with that?

Lisa (39:34):
Yeah, Because you know that I have a lot of respect for
you, right, and I'm clearlygoing to be nice to like
everyone.
I want to make this clear fromthe outset Like this isn't meant
to hurt anybody's feelings,right, Like I do think that
everybody deserves to be happyand all those type of things,
but I come from a differentworldview and I have, you know,

(39:56):
different opinions on it.
But it doesn't mean, like Iwant anybody to be hurt or
anything like that.

Brianna (40:01):
So I just want to we're not going to get defensive,
this is a discussion.
No, I know, I know, I know.

Lisa (40:06):
But for those people that are listening to, it's like I
will say outrageous things thatyou clearly are not going to
like, and I just want to makesure that you know that, like
it's not my intention to hurtanybody's feelings, okay, so,
yes, I don't.
So when you say trans rights,what do you mean?
Because there has been, likethere has been like a blanket
movement to kind of normalize.

(40:27):
What I say is like almosteverything Right, like, and so I
don't know if you mean transrights into, like puberty
blockers or kids, or if you meanadults having the ability to,
you know, like to transitionphysically, to be accepted.
Tell me what you mean and thenI'll tell you what I disagree

(40:48):
with.

Brianna (40:48):
Why don't we start and figure out where we agree?
So Skye and I back when I waslike mid 20s and her when she
was mid 20s.
We went to a doctor.
We had gender dysphoria, we gottreatment for it, we
transitioned and we have a life,we have jobs, we pay taxes.
It has made both of our livesdrastically better.

(41:10):
So do you have any issues withthat?

Lisa (41:13):
No, I mean yes, no and yes , okay.
So I think that when I used towork for a bar right Vango is a
bar back in Philly back in theday and we would always have
trans women come into ourbathroom, they were fun.
We did our makeup in the mirror, right, like nobody cared back
then, right.
And so I think that, like you,just living your life, that

(41:38):
doesn't bother me, right Like,and looking at all of you, I
wouldn't be able to tell any ofyou are a man, right, like you
know well it, well, whatever youwant to say.
It's fine, it's fine, you alllook like women, attractive
women.
My issue is that it kind offeels like it's forced onto,

(42:01):
like into schools, forcedacceptance, right, and then that
the really, really weird.
There's weird people that areexploiting it or taking
advantage of the situation, likethat jeffrey marsh guy, like a
total lunatic, and so so nowit's like at first I remember
writing a paper, um, back incollege, like you know,

(42:22):
government, the governmentshould stay out of gay marriage
completely, right, like it's aslippery slope, like what are
they going to?
Are we going to be okay withother things, whatever?
So I was like that.
And now I'm like no gaymarriage, right.
I wrote a paper defending likecivil unions they shouldn't be
in the marriage business ingeneral, like the government.
But now I think that's wrong.
Right Now I've gone completelyto an extreme side, and it's not

(42:45):
because my side radicalized me,it's because this trans agenda
radicalized me to where I'm likeokay, you know what, we have to
shut this down because it'sinsane.
So let's go through this one ata time.

Brianna (42:58):
So I'm going to ask a question to everyone on the show
Raise your hand if you thinkthe way we're messaging LGBT
issues towards children isreckless and dangerous.
Like who agrees with thatstatement?
Right, totally, we all agreewith you.
I think a lot of the reason westarted this show is we saw all

(43:20):
these things going off course.
Um, you know, sky and I were onbuck angel show the day talking
about how we think a lot ofthis, like these books they're
giving children like choose yourown gender.
No one needed to tell me Iwanted to be a girl when I was
like a child.
Right, there's no point in liketrying to inculcate these

(43:40):
children about this.
So I think all of us reallyshare that fear and we're trying
to build something to push backon that.

Lisa (43:48):
I think, yeah, I think there's something a little bit
bigger going on too.
Like, even with just the plainLGBT stuff, right?
Um, I can't go into like targetand pride month or whatever in
June, right, without saying like, I forget what it was like.
It was like be queer, rightLike up on the thing, or be gay
and whatever.

(44:08):
And my eight-year-old orseven-year-old, five-year-old,
they can read and they're likemom, what's that?
Well, I'm not ready to have aconversation with them about sex
.
They go to right where and andso, okay, like I'm all for.
Like, if you want, I'm not allfor.
But if you guys wanted to likeaccept the lgbtq community, like
really wanted to be, reallyjust like normalized, then that

(44:31):
wouldn't be a thing, right, andthey're like oh, but we need
awareness, we needrepresentation, we need to be
seen.
That's asking to be celebratedrather than just like accepted
as part of the norm and so andso like.
Then it becomes like.
Right now I have, like I had abetsy ross flag on my house and
my wife I had to do with trumpor whatever and my gay neighbors

(44:51):
that live next to me, who Ioffer my paint to say hello to
every morning, got mad about it.
We had a wi-fi war and thenthey put a trans flag up.
But we're across from aelementary school, right, and
the playground's there.
Now every kid is looking atthat you know lgbt trans flag
and asking what's that?
It's a rainbow flag.
Look at that house, right, andthat's a Catholic school, all

(45:14):
right.
So when do your, when does like,like being normalized, instead
of being normalized, beingcelebrated, come and start
infringing on parents and kidsand things like that?
That's kind of where I thinkmost of the people's
frustrations are like we'd befine, like I went to gay
weddings.
I have a ton of friends thatare gay, right, I had you know,
I consider myself friends withtrans people.

(45:34):
I'm not a transphobe by anystretch of the imagination.
But no, like I kind of wantthis stuff absolutely not
normalized, because I do think,especially for girls
transitioning, there's like asocial contagion aspect to it,
not as much for men.
There's like the smallpercentage that actually have
dysphoria, but then there's alsopeople that like have it as

(45:56):
some sexual fetish.
That's weird, I think that.
I think that, like you know, weneed to be really careful about
how we move forward andeverybody's just like pushing,
like you need to need to betolerant.
Well, now, it makes me want tonot be tolerant at all I think
that's fascinating.

Taf (46:12):
Yeah, okay, I have questions about that, right,
because I guess one of thethings that I love about america
is our belief in freedom ofspeech, and I believe that
people are really very resilient.
I don't think that if someonesees a trans flag or a gay flag,
they're going to be necessarilypropagandized into becoming

(46:35):
trans or gay, and I think it'sprobably healthy that kids even
kids are able to just exist inthe world and see a trans flag
and ask questions about that,and kids are really quite
resilient.
They don't necessarily getturned into trannies or

(46:57):
transactors because they see atrans flag.
Yeah, you think that people doget turned.

Lisa (47:02):
Well, I will say this.
I will say this my kids are ina Christian classical school,
right, and this doesn't evenhave to do with Christian
beliefs.
Okay, just in general.
In this school, they are inthird grade and they don't know
what curse words are.

Taf (47:16):
Okay, they don't even they have never heard a curse word
they don't know what they are.

Lisa (47:19):
My daughter comes from a camp and she said, oh my God,
they were saying the F word.
And the girl's like what's thecurse word, a hurtful word,
right?
Like they don't know what thatis.
They're not talking about sex.
They have no idea what it is.
They're really talking abouttying their shoes.
Now my daughter playsbasketball, my son plays
football, we all play in theseintramural leagues, right.
And we go to these schools andthere's trans, everything, okay,

(47:41):
there's trans stickers up.
There's trans things.
Come here, it's a safe room.
I see it all over.
I actually take pictures ofthem because it's so insane how
many there are in all theseother little public schools we
go to.
And so my daughter goes.
You know, she's at horsebackriding camp and they were
talking about like, oh, I thinkthis boy's cute because now
she's in fifth grade.

Taf (48:31):
No-transcript making this claim, but I don't see.
Oh, it didn't happen when I wasyoung yeah when I was young.

Lisa (48:43):
It didn't happen when my parents were young?
Certainly didn.
Certainly didn't happen whenyou were young.
And so now, all of a sudden,we've got 17 girls out of a
horseback riding class of 30talking about how they don't
know what gender that they areand they can decide when they
want to.

Taf (48:55):
I agree that there's a correlation here, but I don't
think it's because someone helda trans flag in front of their
house.
In fact, I think it's a verygood thing that people should be
able to hold trans flags.

Lisa (49:06):
It's that it's in Target.
It's that it's on TV.
It's that it's in their school,everywhere they look.
It's that it's ubiquitous.
It's literally everywhere.
I don't think so.

Taf (49:13):
No, I think that humans are incredibly resilient, and the
wonderful thing about us as aspecies is our ability to be
exposed to these things and tonot, you know, be brainwashed
into something You're talkingabout curse words for example
like the problem with the leftwing and how they talk about
like trigger words and how theytry to clamp down on freedom of

(49:35):
speech and silence people.
They are creating a culture offear around dealing with
difficult ideas and dealing withpotentially like racist ideas,
sexist ideas, homophobic ideas.
Those ideas need to bediscussed and debated and people
are not going to turn intosexist or Nazis just because
they hear an idea that is maybea little bit off color.

(49:57):
And the same thing is happeningwith trans fats, Like people
just are okay with being exposedto these things and we can't
can't create a culture of fearin either direction.

Lisa (50:09):
I agree that people need to have these conversations, but
it needs to be adults.
But let me just explain howyou're wrong there and why
you're wrong.
They've been doing studies inBrazil for a long time.
They wanted to decrease thebirth rate in Brazil.
This was 2012, 15, somethinglike that 2009.
I'll send you the studies.
You can link it.
They wanted to decrease thefertility rate and so what did

(50:30):
they do?
This experiment, people teamedup with um the government and
they put in their soap operasbecause soap operas were big
there.
They put in their soap operaslike a single mom and made her
life look nice, right, and theyput in um divorce and they put
in abortion and they decreasedthe birth rate by running these

(50:51):
through.
Just one soap opera 4%.
Okay, so this is happening allthe time.
As somebody who studiesbehavioral economics, we're
being nudged everywhere everywhich way we go.
Any type of you know stuff likethat, especially when
children's minds are malleable.
People always say children arereally resilient, but that's not
really true.
If you look at the studies,like the most impactful years of
their life are from you knowthree to five, and then you know

(51:14):
five to 12.
So how they're going to be intheir constitution as a person,
so how they're going to be intheir constitution as a person.
And so if you look at thosethings and you look at how we
are easily, easily nudged,manipulated, how we can, how a
whole birth rate of a nation canchange by putting those type of
you know constant things intotheir media supply, you can

(51:37):
clearly see that we are beinginfluenced by our society.
Like it is a nature nurture tug.
Here it is happening.
The kids are being influencedby it, and the more that it's
ubiquitous, the more that it'sacceptable, the more that it
looks like a fad or cool.

Taf (51:52):
Everybody wants, especially girls want to be, um, you know,
accepted by their peers, and sothat's what they do so, yeah, I
don't want to like run awayfrom the reasonable claim here,
which is that there is somesocial contagion going on and
that people are obviouslyaffected by their environment.
I think that what is justimportant is that we mediate

(52:12):
these claims through some sortof like reasonable filter.
So schools are a good example.
Right, because schools arepublicly funded, you should have
like a say in what is beinghung up there and the values
that are being shown to thechildren.
And it's important thatchildren are not shown, like you
know, maoist propaganda orwhatever, because children

(52:35):
really can be influenced.
And, yeah, and they shouldn'tbe shown like trans propaganda
or whatever.
You know, really, schoolsshould be pretty neutral in the
kind of facts that they presentto people.
I think we can like totally beon board with that.
I think it's important not torun away with that, though.
I mean, even when you'retalking about, like brazilian
soap operas, decreasing thefertility rate, you said, of an

(52:57):
entire nation, this seems wildlyimplausible and I'm not exactly
sure, even if you would testthat.

Lisa (53:04):
I can show you.

Taf (53:07):
The studies proved that you reduced the nation of Brazil's
fertility rate With the soapopera.

Lisa (53:15):
They've been doing it for years.
I studied behavioral economics.
What?

Taf (53:19):
do they compare that to?
I would understand if you saidthe soap opera was shown in
certain towns.
They've been doing it for years.
I studied behavioral economics.
What do they compare that to?
Right, Because I wouldunderstand if you said that the
soap opera was shown in certaintowns or villages and towns that
saw lower rates of fertility.

Lisa (53:28):
I'll just put it in the chat.
You can look at it and makeyour assessment from there.
We don't have to get into thenuance of it, right now.
Can I jump in and offer?
Sorry, brianna, I talk a lot.

Brianna (53:40):
No, no, no, You're great, You're great.
I think I'm actually a littlebit more on your side, Lisa, and
let me tell you why.
Because I think, like when Iwas a teenager in like the
nineties, you know, we had athing that we said.
It said no one would choose tobe trans, and I think that was
really true back then.
I don't think that's true today, Because I think if you're

(54:01):
choosing to be trans, meaningyou go, oh, I'm non-binary or I
don't know what I am, or I'magender or asexual or all of
that I think you're enteringthis social club and I think
we've got to put that in contextof what is happening to teen
girls nowadays.

(54:21):
You know, I don't know if you'velooked at some of these studies
about what it's like forteenage girls today with
Instagram, but the mental healthis literally the worst of any
generation we've ever recorded.
Instagram is just breakingthese girls' brains about how
they feel about their bodies.
So it's really easy for me tolike I wasn't lucky enough to
have that socialization, butit's easy for me to imagine, on

(54:42):
the days where I don't feel Ifeel gross or I don't feel put
together or I don't want to domy makeup, just going like oh,
just screw, all of this, I mustbe something else.
So I think, because there's noclinical basis for non-binary, I
think that there are a lot ofsocial messages out there that
are encouraging these girls toconsider this and I am unsure.

(55:05):
In fact, I think there's a lotof damage possible by
introducing these doubts aboutyour gender to young children.
I think that's very cleardevelopmentally.
So I think we can differ, Liketo me someone putting the trans
flag up on their privateproperty.
That seems like a free speechissue.
Yeah, it is.
But if you're talking aboutschools, I think it's really

(55:29):
reasonable for us to, like whenI was growing up, we had PSAs on
, like my little pony, liketrying to teach kids good things
, Like I think it's a good thingto think about the messages
kids are getting and if we'resetting them up for success yeah
, I just want to just makesomething clear about the
translate.

Lisa (55:46):
It's not like that.
If you, one solitary person,puts up a translate, it's going
to be an issue for me, right,that's not.
I do have a problem when you'relike, not considerate of a
school across the street fromyou, right, like I would.
I probably wouldn't care asmuch if there was, we were a
house down the block, right,like it is just free speech.
I'm not telling them to take itdown, but it literally the kids
at noon every day play outthere and stare at that flag,

(56:08):
right, okay, so that's one thing, but it compounds because you
can drive around philly and seetrans flags everywhere, right,
and then not only do you see iteverywhere, then you see, like
you know, you go to a Walmart orwhatever target, and it's, it's
all there.
And then you go into the nextstore and CVS and it's all there
, and you go everywhere and it'severy.

(56:30):
It's a problem.
Now I also have a problem,though, with sex shops and
things like that.
Like, I took my kids to thisgreat, great restaurant that I
like on South Street, and acrossfrom it it says the candy store
, and it's like a stripper andlike a sexual deviant type of
freaking store and and what andwhat happens is my kids are like

(56:50):
I'm going to go in there.
What's that mom?
What's that outfit?
How come she's like that Right?
And I'm like all right, guyslike can we just, can we just
have some civility again?
I remember like people, wouldyou know, back in the day, they
would have those like adultbookstores or like movie
theaters here and there, rightand like, but they were discreet
.
Or even if they had that, therewas one store and I was like a
secret garden or whatever, butyou couldn't see anything from
outside.

(57:11):
It was like discreet Peopleknew what they were getting.
I'm not saying don't open abusiness, I'm not saying don't
have them.
I'm saying like can we justhave some like you know,
anti-degenerate stuff going on?
Like I just mean like my kidsdon't need to be looking at anal
beads, they just don't.
You know what I mean.

Brianna (57:28):
Like it's not, it's not okay would you agree with me,
though, that the major vectorfor kids like I?
I fully agree with you.
I think most of us on this showare integrationist trans women,
and what I mean by that is wetransition to blend in, to go on
with our lives.
Before I went on TimCast, lisa,I talked to you about how I

(57:49):
explicitly didn't want to talkabout trans stuff, because I
just didn't want that.

Lisa (57:52):
I didn't even know you were trans until months after I
know you it wasn't a thing to me.
It didn't bother me, whatever.

Brianna (57:59):
What I'm saying is like I transitioned to go on with my
life and to not make it thefocus, and I think all of us
have a different it's not yourpersonality.
It's not my personality.
It's something I wish I didn'thave to talk about, except that
the fringe has pushed it in aplace where we need some normal
trans women to speak up transwomen to speak up.

(58:22):
That said, in my opinion, likeI'm not a parent, so I could be
wrong on this, but wouldn't youagree that, like Instagram,
TikTok, social media like theseare the vector getting stuff
into your children?
So it seems to me that is therelevant policy arena.

Lisa (58:36):
It's certainly.
You are absolutely right andthat is an issue.
I think a lot of theresponsibility should fall on
the parent.
Now I'm in a type of schoolwhere there's a no device policy
in school or at home.
You're not allowed to have themat home until eighth grade.
Like these kids are not allowedto be on devices, okay, and
because of that, we don't haveTikTok dances.
We don't have kids talkingabout like my kid's, not a

(58:58):
Sephora girl, you know what Imean.
Like, um, we don't have likethese trends just were not being
affected by them.
They're kids, living kids andthey're, you know, building
things out of sticks and usingtheir hands.
Now, when my kids play withthese other kids, they're like,
do you want to do a TikTok dance?
My daughter's, like my mom willkill me, right, so, but the
problem is is that I know.
But the problem is that I knowother parents who have the same

(59:19):
beliefs I do.
I know how they are with theirchildren at home, but once their
children get into that schoolenvironment, right now, they're
around other kids who theirparents are trying to keep up
with the Joneses.
They all have iPhones, they allhave free access to the
Internet On top of the school,reinforcing the messages that
they're getting from theInternet, saying, hey, this is
okay, this is okay.

(59:39):
And then you go into target andthis is okay, and this is okay,
and then it looks like it's thecool thing.
Look at Dylan Mulvaney.
Hey, if you want to be superfamous, say what's it like to
live like a girl for day one,two, three, 800.
And and look how fast youskyrocket.
And it did happen, right.
So to say that that it's thatit's not happening to kids is

(01:00:03):
just you know, or that likethey're malleable, it's just not
true the decisions that theymake when they're that young, I
mean, I've still made decisionswhen I was 12, 13, 14 that haunt
my life still to this day.
To say that like we'remalleable or we're, you know,
resilient is kind of like, Idon't know, giving kids a little
too much credit.
I mean, your frontal cortexisn't what completely developed

(01:00:25):
in your twenties.
It can be fair here.
So, anyway, I just think thatit's it's just not, it's just
not valid.
It needs to stop.
And so if you want to know whypeople are so turned off by this
, when the gay community wasmaking so much inroads wrote is
this, it's, it's too much, it'stoo much yeah, well, I think
ultimately it comes back to likewhere power should be, like.

Taf (01:00:47):
I think it's really important that we put power in
the hands of parents like you tomake sure that you are
controlling what your childrensee.
And I'm glad we talked abouttiktok as well, like brianna is
mentioning, that, when childrenare exposed to these worlds
where they can totally immersethemselves and get like all of
their information from a socialmedia source which is, you know,

(01:01:07):
maybe has a hostile power, youknow meddling in it, making sure
that kids are seeing thingsthat are not so good.
That's really bad and sochildren are not able to make
responsible decisionsnecessarily about what
information they see.
So it's really important thatwe protect them, and I think
that starts with the parents.

(01:01:27):
Because, you know, the transdiscussion is so horribly toxic
and like it'd be one thing if,when we put up the trans flag,
it represented something like oh, when you're an adult, you have
agency over your body and youcan do what you want with it.
That's one thing, right, but alot of times when we're putting
up the trans flag, we're sayingthat like if you have any kind
of gender deviancy as a child,you need to start on a medical

(01:01:50):
pathway of hormones toeventually transition.
That's probably much worse thanthe trans flag represents that,
and so you know, in a saneworld, putting up a trans flag
in your front property is likemuch less harmful right.
So, again, like just as aseries of olive ranches, really,
I mean.
I think that solving thisinformational problem is really

(01:02:14):
difficult in terms of what weare presenting to children, but
I think it begins with makingsure that responsible people,
people who have the child's bestinterest in mind, aka the
parents, have the most controlover what their children are
seeing.

Brianna (01:02:30):
Well, lisa, this is what I would say is beyond the
trans issue that I think wewould both agree is overly
marketed to children.
I think that's a very nice wayto put that it's not just trans
people, like trans issues, thatare the vector for these
destructive messages.
I mean, I think we're about thesame age and I remember what

(01:02:52):
being a teenager was like backthen.
Like and it has changed so muchtoday.
Like you read these stats aboutwhat life is like for teenagers
today, it seems so grim.
Like staring at your phone allday.
Like there was a study thatshowed like the average teenage
girl spends an average of ninehours a day on her phone, which

(01:03:14):
is insane to me.
Like I spend that much but it'smy job.
like Like I'm texting people andcalling Right, it's different
when you're at work, yeah, butso I mean what seems like I am
someone who is focused on publicpolicy and what it seems like
to me is that, for the good ofTikTok and Facebook and Twitter

(01:03:36):
and all these services, it seemsto me that they've developed
something that's highly, highlyaddictive for your children and
have given parents no effortwhatsoever, no tools to regulate
that or control it or get theage appropriateness.

Lisa (01:03:51):
Well, I mean, there's plenty of ways of parents to
control it.
They're being lazy.
Okay, like, let's be fair.

Brianna (01:03:58):
Help walk through this.
If your child wants to be onTikTok, how can you say you say
no For you to have liketransgender content?

Lisa (01:04:07):
Yeah, right, you say no and you take their phone.
Now my kids, right Like.
They run around theneighborhood and I want to be
able to contact them Right.
So I bought a watch called aTikTok watch right, no access to
the internet.
Tiktok watch right, no accessto the internet, no access to
text messages, all.
And they can have their friendscall them, but only if I
approve the contact and have itin the watch.

(01:04:28):
My daughter it was nine o'clocklast night and I said stop
talking to your friend.
She did not and I took mylittle phone out and I turned
her phone off.
Right Like I turned it off.
But these parents don't want tohave the fight with their kid,
they don't want to sit there andargue with them, because it's
exhausting to argue with yourchildren.
They don't want to put the workin and also they don't have the

(01:04:51):
support from schools orwhatever.
Like there has to be buy-in,right, if you know, if
everybody's parents are doingthe one thing and then you're
the kid, like in my kid's school, it's cool to be the smart kid.
My daughter comes home andwants to do her homework,
because it's the cool thing inschool to do the homework right.
It's peer pressure.
It's just the wrong peerpressure.

(01:05:12):
So I would have a lot morefights with my children, I'm
sure, if they were in a publicschool, I'm sure that it would
be way harder for me to dealwith that.
I get some of it in the summerwhen they're doing football and
camp.

Brianna (01:05:24):
I'm talking as an aggregate, as an aggregate
public policy.
It seems to me that givingparents more control over what
their children are seeing inthese algorithms to make sure
it's age appropriate, it seemsto me any efforts to regulate it
.
They should just ban them.

Lisa (01:05:40):
No, they should ban children from having phones
because there is not onepositive study that says it does
anything positive for them atall.
If anything, the statistics allpoint to that it's extremely
negative.
You as a parent should getfined if you, if they see your
kids scrolling around or havinga TikTok or being on the
internet, that's like literallyI think I'm turning full on

(01:06:01):
authoritarian because because,like it's getting to the point
where there's there's nothinggood comes out of it.
They're not learning anything.
They're not, they're not doinganything productive there.
If anything, it's only a meansto get them in trouble and
depressed, and God forbid.
Some kids make it out.
I don't know how, but yeah,it's all, it's all bad.

(01:06:23):
There's nothing positive fromyour kids being on the internet
under 16.
Nothing.

Taf (01:06:33):
It would certainly improve my experience of X if I never
had to see a 14 year old'sopinion on that website.
It's not sounding so terribleto me.

Lisa (01:06:38):
Yeah, it's really not.
It's just inappropriate forthem to be there.
And it's not sounding soterrible to me.
Yeah, it's really not.
It's just inappropriate forthem to be there and it's
inappropriate for them.
My daughter hears my politicalconversations, right, and she'll
say she'll come to me andshe'll say something.
I'm like this is not for you todiscuss, right, like this is,
this is an adult topic.
You should not be discussingthis.
You shouldn't even know aboutthis.
She asked me.
She was talking to me aboutabortion the other day and i'm'm
like Olivia, I'm like we're notdoing this.

(01:07:00):
You're not talking aboutabortion.
You shouldn't even know.
She's 10.
Okay, maybe if you're 15, butyour brain can't even comprehend
at that age, like really, whatit means to cut a baby out of a
uterus.
I mean like they don't evenunderstand death themselves
because they run across thestreet still without looking
both ways.
Like they don't even understanddeath themselves because they

(01:07:21):
run across the street stillwithout looking both ways.
So death isn't permanent tothem in the way that it is to an
older person.
So like they don't even theycouldn't even get it to begin
with.
So I don't understand.
Parents should be way moreinvolved.
You know it should happen.

Brianna (01:07:37):
Women should stop working and they should be at
home taking care of theirchildren.

Lisa (01:07:40):
If we really want to know what's going on, but like that
could be hard for us.
I just want to say, yeah,here's a question for you.
So I see a lot on the the left.
They're like oh, you guys aretransphobes, right?
Um, or that you hate transpeople, or that you wish we
didn't exist, right?
Or like you don't want us toexist.
I hear, I hear this languageall the time.
I think there's aeliminationist project.

Brianna (01:07:59):
Yeah, yeah.

Lisa (01:08:00):
So I don't think that okay here, did you, did anybody
before?
Like?
I mean, brianna, you're older,you're up to 43, right?
So before the last five, 10years, did you ever have a
problem going into a women'sbathroom?
Ever?
And it was always legal for mento be in women's bathrooms.
That's always been illegal.
Okay, it was always legal formen to be in women's bathrooms.

Brianna (01:08:21):
That's always been illegal.
Okay, depending on the state,but it was less of a flashpoint,
I think I would say but nobodywas ever concerned about that.

Lisa (01:08:28):
It was not a concern.
If anything, I feel like allthis, you know, highlighting and
begging for acceptance andstuff or whatever, or tolerance,
or what you guys are doing,which is to me, I see it, more
celebration.
It's only actually hurting youmore.
Now we're talking aboutbathroom bans, but it was never
an issue, at least for passingpeople.
You're preaching to the choir,lisa, yeah, but you see how

(01:08:52):
conservative my views are right.
Do you guys feel like I don'twant you to exist?

Brianna (01:08:56):
No, I don't think that's your political project.
I think that there is apolitical project out there to
push us out of public life theideology yes.
Well, we started this showbecause we see these excesses
and we want to push back on thisright.
We're integrationist.
The other part of it.

(01:09:16):
I think calling it genderideology is fair.
This idea to abolish all gender, to say you can be anything or
nothing, and biology should haveno place in jurisprudence.
I don't think anyone on theshow agrees with that.
Because with Nancy Mace let'stake her as an example.

(01:09:37):
If you think, I like Alexandra,who is this person that said
the Supreme Court should neverhave a moment of peace again
like she was entirely correct tocall this fringe communist,
nutjob, trans woman up in frontof Congress and call her out for
threatening violence.
She does not speak for me inany way and I deplore that woman

(01:09:57):
.
I cannot stand her.
But you know, then it goes fromthere to Nancy Mace going like
trans women should not be ableto use the bathroom.
It's like I have to be able touse the bathroom as I go through
life Like I've got a vagina.

Lisa (01:10:12):
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not totally like, I'm not the
biggest fan at all, Okay, but Iwill say that that whole
conversation to me was stupid.
Anyway, I worked on the hillfor 12 years.
Members have a bathroom, aprivate bathroom in their own
office, okay, and women didn'tget their own bathroom near the
the house chambers, like thefloor right, like the women

(01:10:35):
congressional, so like I don'tknow 2012, right, it's not hard
to go to the bathroom in yourown place she's advocating a
national ban, but the reason forthat the reason for that is
because you have that othertrans activist people saying I'm
going to go to the bathroomwherever I want and I'm going to
make sure I'm going to thebathroom here.
It wouldn't be an issue if shedidn't, if the other person

(01:10:57):
didn't make it the issue firstand now Nancy issue if she
didn't, if the other persondidn't make it the issue first
and now nancy mace is on thetirey, I know it's.
It's honestly, it's reactionaryand and, and, to be fair, I say
pass the ban.
Right, and the reason that Isay pass the ban, brianna, is
because nobody is going to comeup to you, brianna, and be like,
actually, you're a man, yougotta go, you're gonna be fine

(01:11:18):
all, actually, all four of you,or three of you, will be fine.
You, it's not gonna be an issue, right, you're not gonna have a
problem.
You know we'll have a problem,jeffrey marsh, and that's the
kind of people we want to keepout of there.

Taf (01:11:32):
Let's be fair, let's be honest, okay if I see like
brianna in the bathroom, could Ithen, like, call the police on
her?
By the time you do?

Lisa (01:11:42):
that she will be gone by the time you do that, she would
be gone.
Okay, now, if it's a man,they're gonna corner them.
They're gonna be like what areyou doing in here?
You're a freaking weirdo, right?
We're not gonna use thebathroom, be discreet, say
excuse me and leave, and thenthey may question it.
Maybe I don't know, I wouldn'tthey may question it.
They.
Maybe, I don't know, I wouldn'tthey may question it.
They may think about it.
Right, but all that processingtime where, if you have Jeffrey

(01:12:03):
Marsh walking in there, right,jeffrey Marsh walks in, calling
immediately.
Right, you're not doing thatfor Brianna.
And now, not only that, everyinstitution, right, you can go
to Walmart or Target, like Ikeep saying.
They have family bathrooms.
You could totally go in thatfamily bathroom.
It doesn't matter where.
You are right, there's notgoing to be no place for you to
pee.
It's just not going to happen.

Brianna (01:12:24):
So let's protect the majority of the population from
these scumbags.
I just would you would what Iprefer not to break the law as I
go about my day.

Lisa (01:12:35):
You know I have a funny story.
I know you don't want to bringthe laws, you go about your day,
but here's a funny story.
I, um, I was in a bar I was ata gay bar actually, right and
the line was forever in thegirl's section.
So where did I go?
In the boy bathroom, right.
And then I come out and theywere like, oh, she's a real one,
and they're like touching mythroat, like, oh, my god, this
is so weird.
I've been, I have been accusedof being a tranny once or twice

(01:12:58):
actually, except five foot 11.
And I wear high heels and soI'm like standing six, two, and
when you're in those areas,whatever.
So, but yeah, look, I've usedmen's bathrooms when the women
aren't there.

Taf (01:13:11):
Were the men happy.

Lisa (01:13:12):
I'm like guys, sorry, you know, right, like it's not the
biggest deal.
It's not the biggest deal,however.
The Jeffrey Marsh issue andthese guys that you're seeing,
like going into these, likeneutral changing rooms and, you
know, slipping their phone undera 12 year old girls I just saw
that the other day Like right,like these are, these are
problems and I'm sorry, but likeno offense.

(01:13:34):
You guys are the very, veryreal trans people are the very,
very, very minority here and wehave to protect the greater good
of this society and children,and, above all, like if it was
just adults, fine, but children.
Children are the mostvulnerable and so we need to do
their needs come first.
That's how I look at it.

Taf (01:13:55):
Yeah, at the end of the day , I don't think it's the worst
thing ever if I'm forced to usea men's restroom but you
wouldn't be like you're sayingwell, maybe, but also like what
you're saying, like sometimes Ihave gone into the men's
restroom, especially becausesometimes it's just a single
stall right and it's just likethere's a mail on the door but
it's like it doesn't matterwhatsoever, and that's the case

(01:14:15):
for, like most gas stations andstuff right.
I will like I don't know.
I think the feasibility ofenforcing such a ban gets kind
of like weird, right, and we'retalking about like Brianna, for
example.
You know, maybe she goes intothe bathroom and someone who
knows who she is snaps a photoof her, like leaving the women's
restroom.
I think under a bathroom banlaw she could very easily be

(01:14:38):
charged under that they can't dothat.

Lisa (01:14:39):
It's illegal to take pictures of any human, any
person in most states in abathroom.

Taf (01:14:44):
So that's I mean like leaving the bathroom, yeah, or
like, maybe like entering it solike you know before, she's
actually in there.

Lisa (01:14:50):
Yeah, they can't prove that.
You're even doing that then atthat point.
But you know, I mean, I thinkwe're really grasping at straws
here to say that this is, thisis really like such a huge issue
I think it's ridiculous,honestly.

Taf (01:15:03):
So this is this is how this is.
You think the enforcement getsa little tricky yeah.

Brianna (01:15:08):
so I want to talk about like a higher, like level thing
and see if I can get you on mylevel with this, lisa.
So something I've thought abouta lot is what normal looks like
for trans people and for gaypeople, because what I've seen
and again we're about the sameage, lisa is I've seen a lot of

(01:15:28):
the gay men that I knew in mygeneration that never got
married and they're still goingto the clubs and you know like
there's not the same path forstability and participation in
America for live gay men thatexists for a lot of heterosexual
people.

Lisa (01:15:48):
What do you mean by participation in America?

Brianna (01:15:50):
What I mean is I think I'm a relatively normal person,
right, I have a house, I've beenmarried monogamously for 16
years, I pay my taxes, Iparticipate in every single
election.
I go to married monogamouslyfor 16 years.
I pay my taxes, I participatein every single election.
I go to my local games in mytown.
I am here, I'm a fullparticipant, I give back to
society, I create jobs.
Right.

(01:16:10):
That's a much better outcomethan, say, the Brianna Wu that
didn't get treatment for genderdysphoria and was doing every
single drug in sight and washaving like extreme
psychological issues, to thepoint I could not have a job.
Right, these are two differentlike.
One is a benefit for America,the other is a detriment to

(01:16:32):
America and takes tax dollars,quite frankly.
So I think, like, what I'vethought a lot about is, I think
if we don't give trans people apathway to be normal, like
integrated members of societywith jobs, I think this is one
of the reasons I've swung sohard against the progressive

(01:16:52):
movement, because it's tellingthese kids like, oh, you don't,
you can pick any gender you want.
You know capitalism is evil.
You know serving evil, you knowserving being a police officer
participating in your communitythat's just like serving
imperialism, like there's nostructure.
You're advocating for people togo have normal lives.
So I think if, like you'remaking trans people be more

(01:17:16):
outlaws, I just don't see howyou get to this ideal I think
all of us would where someonecan have gender dysphoria, can
go to a doctor, can gettreatment for it and then can
get married, can have a job, canbe normal.

Lisa (01:17:29):
Here's the deal.
But you did all that.
You're in a living example ofhaving done all that.
It may very well have beendifficult before any of this,
right?
Yeah, so you, you were able tolive your life.
I think probably now morepeople wonder if you are trans
or not than they probably didfive, ten years ago, if I would

(01:17:52):
have to guess.
Right.
So your life is intrinsicallyharder at this point, when, when
these, these conversations andthese policies weren't even up
for debate, these were not inthe national media, right, there
were no gay marriage laws onthe books, right, um, but that
was a little longer than that,but not not not that much longer
I thought your phone wasn'tthat long ago.

(01:18:13):
Yeah, but my point is is thatactually we don't.
If we want to see it and I'msorry if I offend anybody here
as a mental health crisis, whicha mental health issue, which is
what I what I think it is right, um, that people should have
treatment for their mentalhealth issues, um, and I think
that that that's all.

(01:18:35):
I think that it should be, um,and if you want to, like you
know, get married and live yourlife and do all those things, I
don't, you did it, you alreadydid it.
So, like I don't see whythere's such this push and like,
oh, we're going to take awayour trans rights and stuff, like
no, can we just like leave itthe way it was 10 years ago?
Like I mean, I don't know whatelse you want to do, because I

(01:19:00):
feel like you're actually worseoff with more advocating than
you would have been prior tothat.

Taf (01:19:06):
Well, you're absolutely right.

Brianna (01:19:08):
I mean, yeah, I said something and the crazies took
over.
It's Jeffrey Marsh and Dylan.

Lisa (01:19:14):
Mulvaney and all of that it's got to be like now.
Now, we don't know, I actually.
So I come from a Christianpoint of view, like a background
, right, but I try to look atwhat do I think is like pursuing
truth, goodness, what's goodfor society?
I think that if you're like aslave to your desires and you
can actually never be freeanyway, right.

(01:19:36):
So like, just like people whosmoke cigarettes, like I'm a
slave to that cigarette, likeI'm not free to smoke them, I
have to go out every half anhour, right.
Or if I'm addicted to asubstance or I have to have that
alcohol drink or whatever,right, I'm a slave to that thing
.
And I think that people are socaught up in you know, like
their identity and themselvesand what their rights are, that

(01:19:58):
they're not free because they'reso focused on that.
If you look at anything,everything is rules-based and I
heard this analogy the other dayand I thought it was like
brilliant, right, there arerules that have worked
throughout time, throughoutsociety, and they're somewhat
pretty rigid, right, likethere's man, woman, child,

(01:20:18):
family, nation, whatever, okay,so all those things the way it
is.
If you were to say you reallywant to anything you really
cared about, you loved, youwanted to do, like, play golf,
right?
Golf is an example.
You say you love golf, you wantto really play golf, you're
going to learn everything youknow about golf.
But you're not just going to goup and hit the ball any way you
want.
You're going to get a pro tosay, hey, what are the
dimensions, how do I hold myshoulders, how do I hold the

(01:20:39):
ball?
You're not just going to goswing however you want, think
you're going to be a greatgolfer.
No, if you stick to the rulesand the formulas and you abide
by them strictly, then you'refree to actually play the game
of golf.
Right?
You're actually free to do theright thing.
So if you have a right now wehave like this hedonism kind of
thing, like do whatever you want, live your truth, live whatever

(01:20:59):
it's actually putting moreconstraints on you, even though
you think you're free to dowhatever you want.
If you actually live withintighter binds of some structure
and some society and some thingsthat are true and good, then it
is that at that point that youcan be free to do good and and
live a good and prosperous andhealthy life.

(01:21:19):
And see, that's what I feellike you did Brianna right.
You did it within theconstraints of what was around
you and now you're fruitful fromit.
Now you see people that aretransitioning.
They're not sure what'shappening.
They're not sure if they evenwant to.
They're talking about goingback.
It wasn't a hard process forthem, right?
It was so easy that they'remaking mistakes about it and

(01:21:42):
they're switching back.
I think that you're freer thanany new Gen Z millennial well,
you know millennials, but youknow trans people are trans.
I just don't think a lot of themare yeah, no, no.
So that's what I'm saying.
I think that people forget thatrules exist for a reason and

(01:22:03):
actually by living by the rules,that's how you obtain freedom
and success and all the thingsthat you really want in life.

Brianna (01:22:09):
That's why we all believe in medical safeguarding
right, Like going to a doctormaking sure you actually have
gender dysphoria, doctor makingsure you actually have gender
dysphoria.
We think this, or at least Ithink this progressive political
project.
To say, like Lisa, you could godown to Planned Parenthood
today and get on testosterone ifyou wanted to, I think that's
insane.

Lisa (01:22:29):
I actually worked for, um, lives of TikTok, right, and I
used to well, okay, it's fine, Iused to write articles for them
.
Um, I actually felt bad aboutkind of doing it sometimes.
So I would call hospitals and Ihave some recordings of it and
I would say, hey, I have a13-year-old or a 10-year-old and
they want to transition.
They're like, okay, just go getthis note.

(01:22:50):
And they would tell me thedoctor to go to and the doctor
said, yeah, we can set you up,I'll give you a note, then you
can go back.
And they were ready to put my10-year-old daughter, olivia she
was nine at the time, I think,and I was using her age and her
birth date, you know, with afake name, and they were ready
to put her on like, uh, pubertyblockers and and and start doing
like breast augmentation andstuff.

(01:23:11):
Like you know, prevent,preventing that easy at like a
really young age.
I think I can't remember whereI go or somewhere out there, but
I mean I still have therecordings on my phone and I
almost felt slimy because I feltbad to the people, like I don't
know that.
I felt bad for the people thatwere answering the phone, like
I'm gonna get these, to getthese people fired, you know,
but they're doing really badthings and they really are I

(01:23:33):
mean we all agree on that?

Brianna (01:23:35):
I think we do at least.

Lisa (01:23:36):
No, it's not like I don't want anybody to exist.
I mean, I think it's a smallpart of the population.

Brianna (01:23:40):
I don't think that's your mission.
I do think it's some people'smissions.
But I'll let some otherquestions go.

Lisa (01:23:45):
I'm sorry I talk so much.
No, no, no, it's good.

Taf (01:23:49):
I don't know if you've ever heard of GK Chesterton, but
he's got this great metaphorChesterton's fence where you're
walking in the woods and youfind this fence and you don't
really understand what it is andso you tear it apart and then
later you find out that actuallythat fence had a lot of meaning
and a lot of value.
I think we've done that over andover with so many things in

(01:24:09):
society and you see that,especially among progressives
and liberals who are takingthese traditional institutions
and values and because the valueis not obvious immediately, you
know, you just throw it out arein some ways more lost than
ever, like you are saying aboutfreedom, where when you have in

(01:24:32):
your mind a vision of the goodand you deeply understand that
and you pursue that, you end upwith a life which is far more
fulfilling in a pleasurable waythan if you were to just pursue
kind of sensual bodily pleasures, because that ultimately
destroys the body and enslavesyour mind to substances or just

(01:24:54):
to bad habits.
And so I think you're hitting onsomething very deep, very true,
about how people are pursuinglife and how people are creating
values, and I would love to seethe progressive community and
gay community try to connect alittle bit more with things that
have been tried and tested andproven to be very effective over

(01:25:17):
time, rather than throweverything out.
So, yeah, it is a deeply tragicsituation, I think yeah, what
were you going to say?

Sky (01:25:29):
the other lady, yeah no, no , I was sorry.
Yeah, no, it's okay, skylar,yeah, um, I know I've been
really quiet, it's just takingit all in.
Um, uh, yeah, I mean I.
Well, first I'll say like Iagree with everyone here on this
podcast generally, when itcomes to like just the, the

(01:25:49):
problems that have happened withsort of the progressive fringe,
I I kind of see it as like thistrajectory that happened with
over over jeffeld um, when gaymarriage became legalized, it
was like the progressivemovement turned its attention
strictly on trans rights, um,but really it was this um, I
don't know like momentum for,you know, expanding the rights

(01:26:11):
of what they think is amarginalized community, and
historically I would say that'sthat was true.
But now that we've had likesort of a really with Biden, I
think this really came to theforefront.
And it really woke me up when Isaw Title IX coming through the
agenda on that to put um, youknow, I guess, gender identity

(01:26:32):
um, which is like a whole notherway to really structure law
around, something that is muchmore amorphous you just identify
into, versus biological sex andwhat that would mean for for
females, for natal women, andjust like how that would just
take away their opportunitieswhen it came to the whole sports
thing, and that like just kindof really like jolted me to the

(01:26:56):
reality that there's a problemhere, there's a natural tension
between these rights for females, rights for trans people, and
just kind of understanding thatyou know we need to rethink
about how we're framing this andmoving forward and um, like
just I don't know it's hard forme to articulate it well,

(01:27:16):
because there's a balance to it.
I do think that needs to existand um, but at the same time,
like I think you know I am, Ihave a real sensitivity to the
school issue when it comes tothe struggles like you've shared
, lisa, about being a mom andhaving to deal with this
cultural almost likeaggressiveness towards trans

(01:27:37):
visibility and LGBT visibilityand just how you're going to
handle that with your children,and I think about that as a
hopeful parent.
I'm not a parent yet, but we'retrying and I'm like how am I
going to handle this issue whenit comes to my kids?
And I'm all on team free rangekids, just like you've sort of
been talking about with no phone, seeing the harmful effects,

(01:28:01):
primarily through the work ofJonathan Hyatt and his Anxious
Generation book that's just beenmaking huge waves book that's
just been making huge waves andso it's like it's hard to it's
hard to balance.
Like I have a sensitivity forpeople that have transitioned,
like all of us on the pod, andare assimilationist in the sense

(01:28:22):
that we don't want to disruptsociety, we just want to live
our lives and just exist and andlike in a way that you almost
wouldn't know we exist, we'rejust there, we're just
participating and doing what welove to do.
But the people that are in mycommunity are like no, we need
our rights to go forward andit's like how do we?

(01:28:43):
I guess that's sort of myquestion to you.
I'm going to come full circlenow to say, like my question is
is where do you think?
What do you think?
Is the the right direction forthe trans movement to go in
terms of in terms of rights andadvocacy, or is it really no
direction?

Lisa (01:29:04):
yeah, just stop, literally stop, and I promise you,
literally stop, and I promiseyou, things will get
exponentially better you shouldcancel double cast.
Is that I?
know like wait what does thatmean like stop, like stop, just
stop everything.
Like stop pushing it.
Like stop putting it all overthe place.
Right like stop if, if,policy-wise, if people want, if

(01:29:25):
people want access and they gothrough a rigorous process and
they want to get health care towhatever, fine, okay, but stop
saying we're gonna, we need it'slike the dei stuff too.
Right like, oh, we need to havelike a certain quota of trans
people or a certain number ofgay people.
Right, like, they're justpissing everybody off, right,
and it's not actually productive.

(01:29:45):
Okay, because you're trying tofill these quotas rather than
getting those qualified people.
And and I know for a fact,rihanna's smart, very smart, so
like it's.
You know, it's not like andpeople aren't discriminating
against, against any of this.
Well, there are more now, butthey kind of weren't.
There was like a lull.
It was like you know what Imean.
You hit that point where peopledidn't really care anymore.

(01:30:06):
People are like do whatever youwant, love your life.
People didn't really careanymore.
People were like do whateveryou want, love your life.
And it can go back to that, ifI think, if people just chill,
like absolutely just stop.
Now there is something that yousaid like since I feel like
we're all agreeing and I feellike if you guys have a more
trans or leftist audience, I'llbe mad at you for agreeing with
me as much as you are.

Taf (01:30:23):
So, so, but now I will say something that I think like us
very much, actually, lisa.

Lisa (01:30:26):
So so, but now I will say something.

Brianna (01:30:27):
I don't think they like us very much actually.
Lisa, they'll be probablyhappier with what I'm going to
say here.

Taf (01:30:32):
The leftists are never happy.

Lisa (01:30:34):
I.
This is something that willprobably bother you.
This is probably something thatwill hurt you and Skylar.
I hope you're you're not goingto take it to heart in a hurt,
like I'm not trying to behurtful, okay, but like you were
talking about you having kidsor you're trying right why I am

(01:30:54):
so against single people,whether they're straight or not,
gay people or like what or gaypeople anybody that isn't a
heterosexual couple.
I'm against them.
Adopting surrogacy, ivf, all ofit, like a hundred percent, oh
well I am against I got ivf ingeneral, but when we're talking
about adoption and adoptingbabies, right Like, no, I don't,
and I'll tell you why.
You can tell me that I'm wrongand I know a lot of people don't

(01:31:16):
see it the way that I do, soI'm going to try to be gentle
about the way that I say it.
Okay, so I've clearly had twobabies and I was blessed to be
able to have them.
That God, you know like, mademy body able to do that.
I get it.
I get that it's in that it's awant and a desire for people,

(01:31:36):
but it's not possible for allpeople.
It's certainly not possibleeven for all women that were
born with uterus, right, likethere's plenty of women whose
uterus don't work and thingslike that.
I think that a ivf is disgustinganyway because you're running
well.
The surrogacy is disgustingbecause you're running a human's
womb.
We don't have a market forkidneys, so all of a sudden now
we have a market for uterusesand here we're just renting them

(01:31:59):
.
But but against that, we've gotfertilized eggs 90,000 a year
thrown away just because peopledon't.
You know their couple weresuccessful and they don't need
them anymore.
It's a disgusting thing of life, but not only that when you're
pregnant, you share self withyour baby.
The baby knows you, the babyknows your voice, your sound,
and even if a surrogate motherhas that baby, that's all that

(01:32:21):
baby knows.
That is all that baby knows.
And when the baby comes outeven now, like with my brother
and his wife just had a baby mybaby's always reaching for mom.
She's the smell, she's thesound, she's the milk, she's the
comfort.
And so if your first act as aparent and I'm talking even
about biological single, like abiologically female, straight

(01:32:43):
women too, like no, you're notallowed to adopt children, if
you think that your first act isa selfish one as a parent, then
you absolutely don't deserve tobe a parent.
And I think that every childneeds a biological mother and a
father statistically.
And if things go wrong listen,if things happen and things go
wrong, fine.
But in society children arebetter off and deserve a mother,

(01:33:05):
a father, because they providedifferent things and they
certainly don't deserve to beripped away and have that trauma
first thing in their life froma surrogate mom or from whatever
.
And so I don't think it'sappropriate if your first act as
a human, as a parent, is to dosomething in a selfish way for
your wants and put the kids wantneeds and what's right for them

(01:33:27):
later.
Does that make sense?
And my friend's about the newsurrogacy.
She hates when I say this.
When I say to her too, I'm likewell, that's how I feel.
I know that it's like even myright wing people are like Lisa,
that's a bit much, you knowwhat I mean.
So I wanted to tell you thatright Cause I just didn't.

(01:33:47):
I didn't feel comfortablesitting here and be like, yeah,
you have kids, Good for you.
And like be dishonest and I'msure, like if you do have
children and that works out foryou good, I hope God blesses you
and them and your life worksout beautifully.
I would wish nothing but thebest for you in that endeavor,
but in my heart of hearts Idon't think that's the right
thing.
Does that make sense?
So now that you can have somehate on, All right.

Taf (01:34:09):
I want to hear what Skye has to say.
What do you think, Skye?

Sky (01:34:14):
Oh well, I wasn't prepared for this backlash like this.

Taf (01:34:17):
I mean, I'll be honest, I know I don't get this in my life
.

Sky (01:34:22):
No one will say this.
So I kind of appreciate you,just like being so aggressive
about this.
But at the same time I'm likedo being so aggressive about
this?
But at the same time I'm like,do you really think this?
You really think this, but no,okay, you do so, okay, no, I'll
say this.
Look, I I kind of think of thethe one.
There's a whole problem withbirth rates in general, and so

(01:34:42):
at least I'm helping out thatand I appreciate that.

Lisa (01:34:46):
That's true.
That's true.
We do need.
We need.
You know what, if anything, youshould probably have like seven
, but like okay, but keep goingalso sky doesn't.

Brianna (01:34:54):
Sky doesn't have to do surrogacy because she has a
female partner.

Taf (01:34:58):
So right, she's having sex in the eyes of god, so right,
there you go.

Lisa (01:35:02):
Well, that's fine, but you know what I'm saying.
Like that she said thesurrogacy part is the part that
I really have like sure sure,but keep going, go ahead.

Sky (01:35:17):
Yeah.
So I mean to be fair, it is IVFwhich you were definitely also
like, not not a fan of either,but um, no, I mean, I just think
, like I think that what mattersmore is that there's just two
parents and involved in thechild's life.
I mean, no parent is going toperfectly embody the I don't
know like the masculine role andthe feminine role, at least in
my view it's.
It's more about there being asupport system and two parents

(01:35:39):
that are there to care for theirchild in in all the way through
life.
Like the stability is reallythe key element in my view.
Um, as well as that likepersonal stake, if they're well
biological, I guess, um, buteven even adopted, I would say
no, like I'm.
I am absolutely a fan of um,adoption and, and I don't know

(01:36:00):
as much about surrogacy, to beperfectly honest.

Lisa (01:36:02):
But but let me just clear something up.
When I say adoption, too, I'mnot talking about adoption
coming from, like, foster homes,okay, because, just just so
we're all clear, that's like avery rare.
Most of the kids have fostercare, can't even be adopted out,
okay, and the ones that areusually older.
But I'm talking about right nowin this country, for every baby
that is born, that a baby likeinfant, that a mother wants to

(01:36:24):
give up, like right away,there's like 30, I'll go on the
easier side, it used to be 36.
It's around 32.
Heterosexual families, right, amale and a female that want to
have a kid, right, and soeverybody's like, well, gay
people should be.
Prioritizing catholic charitiesis now not gonna.
I think it was catholicsomething.
One of those catholic adoptionagencies was getting pushback

(01:36:45):
from the government becausethey're like, religiouslyly, we
facilitate these adoptions andthings that we don't want to
give them to gay couples, right,and the gay people are like no.
And then there's other agenciesthat are doing the opposite,
that are prioritizing gaycouples only, right, and so
there is a lot of trouble whenit comes to these things, like
for these newborn children inlike, okay, well, if you have 35

(01:37:12):
like normal, no offense, normallike you know.
Uh, not normal okay, you knowwhat I'm saying, like in the
distribution, you know okay um,you know 35 heterosexual couples
doing and I'm not saying all ofthem are going to be good
parents.
I'm sure some of them are goingto be abusive or horrible or
get divorced or whatever.

(01:37:32):
Right, but you want to give thebaby the best options to have a
good, normal life.
Now.
Gay people actually, when itcomes to adoption, they usually
have more money that's like whatthe statistics show, so they
have better schools and thingslike that.
That is true.
But I think that it also setsthem up for you know a adopted a

(01:37:58):
white daughter and a black sonand even at five she was having
issues because he's like howcome I don't look like you mommy
and daddy?
And when he went to daycare hewould only want to play with
like little black kids and likeshe was struggling with that.

(01:38:20):
She's a wonderful parent.
This kid's having a great life.
I'm like not saying anythinglike I'm saying that people
forget that these things come upand that they're traumatic to
the child.

Brianna (01:38:33):
So the child could be I gotta push back just a little
bit.
Yeah, thank you, uh.
Catholic child services.
What was that?
I was adopted, um, and one ofthe things that happened to me
is my right-wing family who who,by the way, if I'm thankful for
anything in my life, it's thevalues that my right-wing family

(01:38:55):
gave me.
I think the reason I've had asuccessful transition is because
of ideas like personal agencyfor my decisions, not waiting
for some utopian government tocome along and provide an answer
for me.
There's a ton of stuff to comealong and provide an answer for
me.
There's a ton of stuff.
I think it's not a coincidencethat everyone on this show has a
little bit of a conservativestreak to us from our family
background.

(01:39:16):
But that said, you know, when Icame out to my family, they
disowned me that day and I waslike that's right either
Immediately afterwards, and youknow it was really, really bad
and I wish to God that I'd beenadopted by like, a gay couple
that would have understood meand not like, like have done so

(01:39:39):
much psychological to me, damageto me.
Every single time I likedsomething that was feminine.
So I hear what you're saying,but I think there are a lot of
use cases where they're they'regay, gay parents that are very
helpful for those.

Lisa (01:39:52):
Oh, I do.
Like I said, statistically youknow, it shows that gay parents
are fine.
I'm saying that like I thinkthat anybody can be abusive.
I think there's plenty of abusein the right wing.
Look at the Catholic churchalone.
Look at the priests, Right.
But look at teachers just inschools.
I mean there, there is alwaysgoing to be a percentage of

(01:40:18):
abuse, no matter what way you go.
My thing I'm saying is giventhat aside right, give the kid
the best chance all aroundshould be the priority there.

Brianna (01:40:22):
But this is I think this is my frustration with your
way of thinking, lisa, becauseI this is what I think I think
we all agree on this show thatthe left wing has kind of taken
ownership of the entire transissue right and have put it out
there with a lot of messagesthat aren't just bad politics.
I think it's not leading to ahappier trans community.
What I want to see is aconservative movement that

(01:40:46):
doesn't treat trans people likewe're disposable and doesn't
treat gay people like they'redisposable.
That says like look, we are theforce for stability in america.
We believe in family, webelieve in police, we believe in
military service.
You know, we believe instructure, but you have all that
success for it?
I don't think we ever have.
But I'm saying like I I'murging you to not say to give up

(01:41:10):
on this, because I think weneed those messages now more
than ever.

Lisa (01:41:15):
I just think that, like you, I feel like that was all
I'm not giving up on like any.
You know what I mean.
I am very fringe and let metell you my IVF stuff would.
It's never going to be policybecause it's so to everybody
else.
It's so insane.
Okay, I will admit that likepeople are like lisa, like no,
but I don't think anybody'sentitled to children at all,

(01:41:36):
like I just don't think that um,so um to my, I'm fringe there,
like fine, like I'm fringe there, but I don't think that like I,
I don't think that anybody istrying to.
I I mean there's so many gaypeople that I know like like a
ton of them in the Republicanparty, like my friend David
there's conservative aunt thatlike I just saw him I didn't

(01:41:59):
talk to him, but like I saw himthis weekend, there's like so
many of there's like I couldlist, like I just need to, but a
hundred gay people that are inthe conservative side.
And let me tell you I will saythis about the conservative
party it's almost like weird.
It's like if you're gay, oryou're black and you're a
conservative, or you are aDemocrat and you were a
conservative, or a Latino andyou want to be a conservative.

(01:42:21):
You are like, oh my God, we'regoing to put you front and
center.
We love you.
You're the best thing that everhappened.
Like is like that.
If you believe that like thingsshould be normal, like the log
cabin republicans do, um, yeah,the get.
The republican community willwelcome you with open arms and
because they have such a stronghold in the republican party,

(01:42:43):
like I don't.
I don't understand what all thefuss is about.
Like those people deaf, likegays against groomers and all
that.
Like there's a huge right winggay community that nobody talks
about.
Like those people deaf, likegays against groomers and all
that.
Like there's a huge right winggay community that nobody talks
about.
Like that, or I think that theleft completely forgets about.
So I don't think anybody'sgiving, especially not the right
is giving up on gay whatever.
They just want all the insanityand the constant visibility

(01:43:05):
stuff to go away, and I thinkthe only reason to do that is to
have a better message andengage Like this is the same
mistake that the progressivesare making.

Brianna (01:43:13):
They respect our message, they moralize it and
say this is right and then theywon't engage with people to do
this.
What I want to see is aconservative movement that comes
out and says look, weunderstand that trans people
exist, but here's our publicpolicy solution for it.
That has structure, that treatspeople with dignity, that gives

(01:43:36):
them a path to jobs and asuccessful life.
That, to me, that would be aconservative movement.

Lisa (01:43:42):
That would be very appealing to a lot of people,
but politically and policy-wise,I mean, how would that even
look?
And I say this with all duerespect, right?
So if you have, right nowthere's access to medical care,
should you get access to freemedical care?
Should you have access tofeminization, facial surgery?

(01:44:03):
Because let me tell you, Icould use some of that?
Right, it's a good purchase.
No, I'm just saying that like Iwould love free.
Anyone would benefit, anybody.

Taf (01:44:12):
Right, exactly yeah.

Lisa (01:44:14):
Right.
So my thing is is like what arewe?
What are we actually?
A pathway to jobs?
I mean, brianna, like you are asmart woman, and I don't know
about the other women here, oryou know whatever.
Like you guys are all workingas rocks, right?
Yeah?

Brianna (01:44:29):
You know, it's your job , yes'all jobs.

Lisa (01:44:30):
Y'all have health insurances, I'm sure, right?
Um, and so what we're reallytalking?
We're really talking about Ihate to say it like it's like
nonsense, like are we having thesame conversation for
schizophrenics, like someschizophrenics get medicine and
some are wandering around on thestreet right now?
Is that, is that a product ofthem?
Like not taking their medicine,not having access?

(01:44:51):
I don't know, is it.
Is it?
Is it from having bad parentswho just didn't care and let
them, like leave?
Is it from lack of willpower?
Don't know, but there's nocampaign for like let's let, uh,
we have access to schizophrenia, good jobs and things like that
.

Taf (01:45:06):
I think you're making a good point, which is that, like
we have all sorts of mentalhealth issues but there isn't
like an ADHD flag that peopleare putting in front of their
house or like school childrenare saying so it's a very unique
in that, in one sense, peoplewant it to be like a medical
issue and they want to advocateit, advocate for it on that
basis, like saying you know,trans people need to be invited

(01:45:34):
to women's sports, otherwisethey'll kill themselves.
Life-saving health care right,so people will make those claims
, but at the same time, peopletreat it like a lifestyle kind
of thing that you would justcelebrate publicly and do all
sorts of things, which is reallynot what we do for medical
minorities.
I think it's interesting thatyou're bringing up the sort of
backslide that we've had,because, you know, I was looking

(01:45:56):
at news from the 1950s theother day and there's this
headline that's like uh, xgibecomes blonde bombshell and
it's like you know, she's ahappy woman after six surgeries.
That's in the 1950s.
They didn't care, right, right,didn't care.
I think a big part of that isbecause americans are totally
willing to let people live theirlives and be kind of like
freaky and weird on their own,as long as they're not making it
everyone else's problem.
And we have this with plasticsurgery.

(01:46:17):
People get crazy plasticsurgery.
We have TV shows about it, butbecause they're not saying that
it's like a medical necessityand that we need to teach
children about it, we allowpeople to get ridiculously large
fake breasts and whatever.
We believe that that's your,you know, god given right over
your own body, whatever.

Lisa (01:46:35):
Right, and nobody's asking not to stare at them when they
walk into the store.
They're not asking for specialfavors or they're not saying
please use my right tittypronoun right, Exactly Right,
and we're not trying tolegislate any of that, right.

Taf (01:46:48):
I think that, like, yeah, huge problem with transa is just
as soon as we've made iteveryone else's problem and
we've tried to insist on theselegal defenses, that side
clearly with us over otherpeople's rights, you know, like
transports or whatever.
The idea that, like, thisphilosophical debate should just
be solved with the governmentsiding on the side of trans

(01:47:11):
people is kind of ridiculous inthe sense that it ignores other
people's right to choose who toassociate with and who what kind
of athletes they want to haveon their teams so that athlete
thing is different.
We'll get into that, yeah, yeahI mean, there's there's this
whole other issue of fairness,but I think it's totally
legitimate if, like, a sportsorganization wants to set their
rules, you know, excluding transathletes or having a mixed

(01:47:34):
gender thing or whatever.
At the end of the day, athletesshould be able to choose.
You know where they want toparticipate.
We have.

Lisa (01:47:41):
Like, I'm wrong too, but we have the special Olympics,
right?
We're not like, oh, thesepeople that are in, they're in a
wheelchair, they feel so badthat they can't compete in the
regular Olympics, right?
No, and I'm not saying thatthere's anything wrong with
those people, right?
Some people are born withoutlegs.
Okay, they're not going tocompete in the regular Olympics.
Does it hurt their feelings?
Do they wish that they would,I'm sure, but they're a minority

(01:48:05):
of the population and weaccommodate them.
So why not have trans Olympics?
Trans Olympics.

Brianna (01:48:13):
You of the population and we accommodate them.
So why not have trans olympics?

Lisa (01:48:15):
you know fine, but I don't think anyone here wants trans
women in sports.
I don't think we know.
No, I don't think so either.
But I'm just saying for forother people listening that may
hate all of us or especiallyhate me, but like I'm sure that
they will, like you know they're.
They're things like oh well,look at that person's gonna kill
themselves.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but like the suicide rates are
insane anyway because we'vebeen coddling people.

(01:48:36):
Life is hard life is hard, andif you don't, I agree and if you
don't start to find out thatlife is hard, now right like if
my kid's five years old, like myson, he needs to know like sort
of he's in football.
Like do not cry when you get up,do not cry right.
Like like life is hard and youknow what.
Every time he doesn't and Iyell at him like he gets out

(01:48:56):
there and plays harder and doesbetter, and then he's so happy
to be overcame something, ratherthan me just rubbing his back
on the sideline.
That doesn't help him.
He learned to overcome correct.
He learned resilience, and sothe more that these people are
like, oh, they're going to feelbetter, they're going to kill
themselves, they don't whatever.

(01:49:25):
No, it makes it worse forovercoming all of that, don't
you think that that's like Idon't know who believes in God
or what, but God gives you across to bear.
I do think that God probablymade people gay right, and
everybody has their own.
I have my own, very difficultcrosses to bear, and so being
trans or being gay or being born, and not how you feel in your
body is is it's actually a gift,it's an opportunity right To to

(01:49:49):
you know, fight things, fightnatural urges, fight yourself
and and come out of that biggerand better and stronger and a
more complete human.
And if people are not lookingat it that way, they're saying
just love me and accept me forme how I am.
But you see that with you know,700 fat, fat, pound, obese
people love me, accept me forfor the way I'm, but you're

(01:50:10):
dying and it's killing you.
It's the same thing like we areway too lenient on people
mentally.

Brianna (01:50:18):
I think about this a lot, lisa.
Like, who would I have been ifI hadn't been born with gender
dysphoria?
I'd probably be another racist,mississippi redneck called.
Well, like half the otherpeople down there, I would not
have had a life where I wasinvited on the Tim cast, for
instance.
So I can appreciate that.
But at the same time there is aRepublican project right now to

(01:50:41):
make my life much, much harder,to dehumanize me, like
constantly.
Oh, I'm telling you it was theworst thing I ever did.
I deeply regret doing my.

Lisa (01:50:54):
My friend runs American principles projects.
One of those organizations thatI'm sure that you would say is
is part of that.
Right, but you, but I, honestly, I think you're looking at it
wrong.
The Republican party isreacting to what your party did.
The Republican party isreacting to that, and it's the
Republican Party is reacting tothat, and it's a natural
reaction to lash, to not lashback but like to say, hey, this

(01:51:17):
is out of control, because itwasn't that way.
So it's not that theRepublicans have an agenda, it's
that the Democrats have aproblem pushing this, pushing it
so far.

Taf (01:51:28):
They're lashing back right, but that will stop.

Brianna (01:51:32):
See because that's actually the catalyst, it'll
stop.
The whole reason we startedDollcast is to push back on this
stuff.

Lisa (01:51:40):
You're doing the right thing, but my point is that
you're saying that there's awhole Republican faction
dedicated to that.

Brianna (01:51:47):
They said there's a political project that is
actually in the right and theleft to make my life much harder
and to denigrate trans women.
Nowadays it's not good for mepsychologically to have
strangers like analyze like.
I've had more gross commentsabout my vagina from gender
criticals than anything any manhas ever said to me in my entire

(01:52:09):
life is.
It's gross, it's sodehumanizing and I think there's
a cruelty that has been awokenthere that is not successful.
And just one more thing I wantto say here in Massachusetts we
have a law that if you havehealth insurance, they will then
go and get you help for genderdysphoria.

(01:52:29):
So something a lot of transgirls do here in my state is
they can actually go work atStarbucks for a year and a half
and they will qualify for healthinsurance and then they can go
get gender affirming surgery.
And I like this a lot becauseit's saying to someone okay,
like unemployment is such a hugeissue, with trans people not
having jobs or having adirection, and it's like here's

(01:52:52):
something you want, a goal andwe'll help you, but you need to
go, participate and be aproductive person for a year and
then we will start moving youthere.
And I think that to me, this isa good example of public policy
this treating trans people withdignity, but it's also asking
to chip in and develop someskills along the way.

(01:53:14):
It's really surprising to mebecause I used to think that
once vaginoplasty was covered byinsurance, that the trans
community would be muchpsychologically healthier.
It's actually, as best as I cantell them, a lot of ways the
opposite, because these girls goout, they have a $3,000 copay
for a surgery that is very, verydifficult and it doesn't get

(01:53:35):
them in any direction.
They're not picking up jobskills, they're not learning how
to integrate.
They don't even have to go outinto the real world for a year
to get a lot of these surgeries.
So what I'm saying to you isthe original standards that
you're saying you want to getback to.
Those were a compromise betweenliberal values and conservative
values.
The Benjamin Standards of Carewere looking at this entire

(01:53:59):
system and saying society isgoing to be thinking about this
and the patient needs this.
Here's something right in themiddle.
So I just I wish you wouldn'twrite the entire political
project off, because I think weneed those senior voices to help
people like the three of usturn this entire ship around.

Lisa (01:54:16):
I think, though I think that, okay, I see what you're
saying, but like, shouldn't thatjust be like a blanket?
Like right now we have tons ofpeople that are on welfare that
I know like my friend was one ofthem she would get her EBT card
and go get her nails done I'mnot even kidding.
Okay, right, I was young, Ihung out with a lot of rough

(01:54:39):
people, but, yeah, so you know.
But she would go to, like theywould like oh, you know, you
just have to say you're lookingfor a job, and then she would
like sign in or go to this oneclass thing, and as long as she
did that, she could just keepgetting it, even if she didn't
get a job, and she could turndown as many jobs as she wanted.
Right, this is just a straight,regular white girl.
Okay, she could turn down asmany jobs as she wanted, and she

(01:55:01):
just sat home chilling andsometimes bartending on the side
and collecting money, right,and she had a hard life she grew
up with like a mom and acocaine father, and her mom was
working three jobs and they wereon welfare, and like she had a
hard life and her mom needed thehelp, but like there was no,
even with the good intention ofthat program.

(01:55:21):
Right, I'm watching my money belike the taxpayer and I keep
going to work and paying mytaxes and I'm watching my friend
get her nails done by tiffanylocks um, you know, like buy all
kinds of food that I can'tafford, right, and I'm watching
that and I'm like, wow, this islike really frustrating.
Especially, I still love thatgirl more than life itself.
But, um, but like, still, thisis, this is the thing that's

(01:55:41):
happening.
And so now you have you haveother people that are saying,
like, okay, now, but we have todo this for this community, we
have to do that for thatcommunity, we have to do this
for this community, we have todo that for that community, we
have to do this for thiscommunity.
I know that it's better forsociety if they're integrated
and working, but there will alsobe ways to gain the system.
How about, if you really wantthe surgery, you go out and get

(01:56:04):
a job at Starbucks on your ownfor a year, anyway, and you work
hard and you get the insuranceand then you save up for your
deductible and actually do thething.

Brianna (01:56:14):
That's the way it works that's the way it works in
massachusetts.

Taf (01:56:21):
Other states don't love this no but brianna, I will say
that, like, if you want transpeople to have jobs and one
incentive to have a job is thatyou can get ffs, that's just
every job like any job that youget, it's not getting money so
you can save for surgery.
So, like, you know, let's say weget rid of insurance covering
FFS, then there's more incentiveto succeed for trans people

(01:56:45):
because they don't just have towork like a one year Starbucks
job, they actually have to getlike an engineering degree and
contribute a ton to society interms of value value.
So I feel like if the goal is tohave trans people, you know,
integrate and have profitablejobs and stuff, um, seems like
the insurance thing aroundstarbucks is actually
disincentivizing that.
Yes, because like, let's say,I'm a trans woman who has the

(01:57:08):
ability to get like a job as aprogrammer right, and I want to
get ffs, I might say to myself,well, it'd be way easier to get
a starbucks job.
Oh, and when I factor ininsurance, paying for ffs, which
might cost like 75k and I getlike a one-year starbucks job,
the effective benefits might belike 100k, where 75 of that is

(01:57:31):
just the health insurance.
And so I'm being incentivizedto get the starbucks job rather
than like, go out and theprogramming job, earn tons of
money and just get it that wayTo be better for us To be clear,
you could also do that inMassachusetts with an
engineering job, and you couldget FFS that way.

Brianna (01:57:47):
What you're just trying to say is that insurance.

Lisa (01:57:50):
in Massachusetts insurance is mandated Just like any time,
like any time you have any typeof insurance, it's covered, ok,
well, a certain type ofinsurance, it's covered.
Okay, well, a certain type ofinsurance, yeah, well, I mean,
okay, well, that's kind of likedifferent, but like so, even
with that, right, it's kind oflike how Obamacare was supposed
to be great and it drove up ourprices for everybody, and it

(01:58:12):
made it like all works, Right,the more that you like mandate
types of coverage and thingslike that the actual, the more
expensive it makes them.
Not only that, though, but wehave these hospitals that are
making kids forever patients, ormaking trans people forever
patients, right, like this islike a trans care for patients.
I mean, I take estrogen likeeveryone else, my age does no,

(01:58:35):
but like, but no, no, if you, ifyou look at like, even, um,
there's undercover video of it.
I don't remember if it wasphiladelphia children chop or
another one, but they were likelook guys, I'm these, these
surgeries and stuff.
They're making the hospitals aton of money and I'll send you
the, I'll send you theundercover footage and all that
about what they call me forever.

Brianna (01:58:56):
Patients like I take ten dollars of estradiol a month
and I take I don't knowthyroxine, which is a thyroid
drug that has nothing to do withanything like right, I, I don't
know what you have, but there'sa lot of people that are having
these surgeries, they're havingand they're having
complications.

Lisa (01:59:16):
they're having hormone replacement that lasts forever,
right, and like they're doingthat the they're having hormone
replacement that lasts forever,right, and like they're doing
that the hospitals and stuff areincentivized to actually like
make us all sicker and whatever.
Then it's kind of like they'rethere to make money.
So even now it's just kind oflike school.
So the moment that the federalgovernment right started
subsidizing federal studentloans so everybody could go to

(01:59:36):
school, and clearly everybodythought that that was a better
idea if everybody was collegeeducated, right.
But the moment they did thattuition, like, the schools
raised their tuitions by 400,700% right, because they knew
that they were federallyguaranteed and backed, right.
And so what that inevitablywound up doing was actually
making it harder and moreexpensive for everybody to go to

(01:59:59):
school and wound up puttingpeople in more debt by federally
subsidizing these loans.
And so I kind of see it and I'mnot saying that it shouldn't be
covered, but I'm saying likethis ubiquitous type of like, um
, you know, making it uh, superaffordable and whatever for
everyone, actually only drivesprice like backed by the
government, only drives pricesup and and winds up will hurt

(02:00:22):
the community even more well,the other thing, part of that is
the bureaucracy.

Taf (02:00:26):
So when you get the government involved in the
schools, now suddenly there is astrong incentive from the
government to make sure thatschools are following all of
these bureaucratic standards upto and including the enforcement
of like progressive policiesand you know, hiring policies
and enrollment policies as youget these really weird

(02:00:47):
pernicious effects.
I think you probably see that intrans health care too, where
you get the government involvedin this sort of thing and now
there's an incentive, there's apolitical dimension to it, right
.
So now you have thesegovernmental bureaucracies
trying to make sure that theclinics are following the
progressive agenda and no onefeels comfortable speaking up

(02:01:09):
about maybe ill effects of HRT,whatever it is.
Basically, as soon as you takeit outside of the competitive
market, the actual results theymatter way less.
What matters is trying toappeal to the government donors,
and the government donorsoftentimes have viewpoints which
are not super conducive toactual flourishing.

(02:01:30):
They're conducive to politicalaims.
Oftentimes those aims areprogressive, because lots of
bureaucrats are progressivepeople.
So you just end up with all ofthese deeply, deeply pernicious
effects as soon as you startinvolving the government.

Lisa (02:01:43):
It's like that old saying the path to hell is paved with
good intentions.
And I think that I see, I dosee what you're saying and I'm
like but if you really like,flesh it all the way, like, keep
going to its like most completeends.
Usually doesn't look good whenthe government gets involved

(02:02:03):
with anything and that's why Isaid just stop.
Just stop, because I swear lifewill get better if everybody
just stops.

Brianna (02:02:09):
I just think just mathematically like I don't want
to say how much money I make,but the amount I pay in taxes a
year is non-trivial.
And like there's a largedifference in how much money I
made, like before I got FFS, andhow much I make today, like
when I can integrate it about myday much more easily.

(02:02:32):
Like it was actually a reallygood investment for the
Massachusetts Like not that itdid pay for a single dime of my
health care, but if it had, thatwould have been a really good
investment because they got somuch more that money back in
terms of jobs created and taxesthat I pay but you are an
anomaly.

Lisa (02:02:50):
like I hate to break it to you, but like you're an anomaly
, you ever see a lot of thesepeople that like transition and
even if you look at the studies,even after they do, they
actually become worse off.
Okay, like like there's,there's studies that show that,
um, and they're not.
What?
No, no, no, statistically youare minority.

Sky (02:03:11):
I would say minority minority.

Lisa (02:03:14):
Outlier Fine, I you know.
Outlier fine, I you know.
Whatever, don't judge, I'm nottrying to.
Yeah, your point is is that,like you know a lot of people,
this is like, uh, it's a, it's amulti-faceted mental health
problem.
Maybe for you, this was it,right, um.
Maybe for skylar and anybodyelse, right like, this is pretty
much your thing, right, um?

(02:03:35):
And if you but other peoplehave compounding things and so
they think this is going to betheir catch all, and then when
they fix that, they're stillmiserable, right, I think that
just in general.
I think that another thing thatwe have is like an obsession
with this.
It's going to sound crazy too.
Here we go, an obsession withhealthcare.
Anyway, part of depression islike ruminating on your problems

(02:03:56):
, like thinking about them overand over again.
I had.
I was a very bad kid.
I was a very deserved disturbed, okay, kicked out of two high
schools.
I didn't go back to collegeuntil I was 27.
I was fist fighting.
I was hanging out with gangsand bartending and I was.
And then I went and worked inthe halls of Congress.
Okay, like my life was.
Everybody used to call me trainwreck Lisa.

(02:04:18):
It was awful, right.
Even now my brother was doing.
Um, he went to see a patientand the lady said oh, I used to
work at the school and he goes.
So did you know Lisa Reynolds?
And she was like yeah, rightand right, like they hated me.
I was horrible, okay, but myparents, you know what they
didn't do?
They didn't tolerate it.
They said there's nothingfreaking wrong with you, right?

(02:04:39):
They were like you don't haveborderline personality disorder,
you're not bipolar, you're notADHD, which maybe I was right.
The point is is that they werelike we're not doing this,
you're going to have to learnbehavioral coping mechanisms to
deal with all those emotions andthings that are making you lash
out and misbehave.
And I say to my brother all thetime like, how did we make it

(02:05:02):
out of certain things?
Or why are we like this?
Like why, why is my life?
Like, how did I, how did I notbecome a drug addict?
All my friends I have like 25friends dead, right, heroin, uh,
the, the, the girls that I washanging out with were smoking
crack.
I'm not even kidding.
Like this was my life wasinsane and I didn't become a
drug addict and I didn't become.

(02:05:22):
I didn't need to go on psychmeds, even though I thought I
did.
I went to therapy and I'm like,oh my God, what's wrong with me
?
And then they gave me a milliondiagnosis.
I got diagnosis like literallyclinically bipolar, and I'm like
, how, I don't have manicepisodes, I'm not depressed ever
, like ever.
I'm just, I don't know, grumpyand a lot like.

(02:05:44):
I have a lot of emotions, solike.
And then they took it away.
They were like you're not, butlike.
My point is I was attentionseeking, for that, I needed some
validation that I wasn'tgetting from my mom or I wasn't
getting from my peers so talland skinny and awkward, right
Like, we all have these thingsthat go for it.
But because my parents would nottolerate me ruminating or me
being depressed, they're like,oh, enough of this, right, I
made it out.
And I think that the more thatwe give in right and not make it

(02:06:08):
and not make it so easy to say,oh, you have depression, I like
I said my kids football field.
A nine-year-old girl is talkingabout how she has anxiety.
You don't have anxiety, you'renine, you're nine years old,
nothing happened to your parents, you're not abused, you don't
have anxiety, you're nine.
Right, like there's these kidsand they're having these
conversations about mentalhealth problems at nine.

(02:06:28):
No, the harder that we make itto be mentally ill I hate to say
it like that, right, but themore people will be strong and
overcome these things thatthey're having.
We're encouraging people,whether we know it or not, by
being so lax on them, to havethese issues and to be mentally
ill.
Now, like I said, schizophrenia, some types of dysphoria,

(02:06:54):
things that there are peoplethat are really truly mentally
bipolar and are having episodes,manic episodes.
I'm not discounting any of that.

Taf (02:07:02):
I'm not saying that I'm serious.

Lisa (02:07:04):
What I'm saying is if you make it easy to excuse your
behavior I wasn't those things,but it would have been easy for
me to excuse my behavior to gobe put on these drugs.
This one doctor when I wasunderage put me on Paxil.
Now we all know the sideeffects of Paxil are terrible,
right, like suicidal thoughts,bad behavior in kids.

(02:07:24):
They want to put me on that.
My parents were like you're nottaking shit, right?
And if I didn't listen to thator if I fell into that, who
knows, I could today very muchbe a drugged up person in some
psych ward, still thinking thatI have psych issues when I
didn't.
I just needed someaccountability.
And so for people that it'sreal, fine, let it be real for

(02:07:47):
them, but for everybody else,make it hard.
So you got to figure out ifit's real or not.

Sky (02:07:53):
To be like to continue like in that theme.
That's really what I think isthe problem with, where we've
seen like trans, at least withtrans medical care.
That's where it's gone withlike just the like, not the self
ID, but the informed consentmodel where you can just, you
know, get a prescription oftestosterone or estrogen just by
showing up and just saying,yeah, I want this.

(02:08:15):
Like real care in this space isputting up some barriers and
challenging you to like help youexplore your identity.
I mean, this was very much likewhat Bree was sharing, like I
thought very similar Lisa, likethat.
My issue with gender dysphoriawas just an internal problem
that I could work through orlike muster through by force,

(02:08:35):
until it again eventually wascausing so many congenital
problems just because I couldn'tcontrol the disruption of my
thoughts that I was like I needto really escalate this to the
point of actually seekingtherapy and working through a
clinician to see, um, what aremy options?
It wasn't even oh, I want totransition, it was what are my
options?
How can I manage this?

Lisa (02:08:56):
How can I make myself feel better?
I want to transition.

Sky (02:08:58):
It was what are my options?
How can I manage this?
How can I make myself feelbetter?
Right, yeah, like cognitive,behavioral therapy, all of the
types of ways to write likechallenge myself, before saying,
before accepting the fact that,like, okay, this is going to be
a persistent struggle, I'm notoutgrowing this.
That was a big part of my storyas I was 25.
I was already.
I was trying to go into theworkforce.
I was in the workforce but Iwas having difficulties because

(02:09:20):
of this very issue and it notgoing away.
And it was like I'm grateful.
I'm glad that medicaltransition is an option, like
imagine if I had existed ahundred years ago and I went
about to just live life in thestate.

Lisa (02:09:34):
Yeah, I'm not saying I would.
I don't think I'm not sayingthat.
I think that it shouldn't be anoption.
I don't think that doctorsshouldn't be able to perform
these surgeries or do that.
I'm saying like, let's make itserious care where you really
have to evaluate.
I think actually almost allchildren should do cognitive
behavioral therapy, even like I.
Like I said I did, I studiedbehavioral economics in college

(02:09:55):
and there's actually studieswhere cognitive behavioral
therapy has helped, like peopleyou know do better in their life
financially, even later inyears, and like everybody needs
some cognitive behavioraltherapy because we all fight our
own demons in here.
But but yeah, but I honestlythink that I'm not saying it
should be.
When I say it should bedifficult, I'm not saying it

(02:10:16):
should be like hard andpainstaking, like oh my God,
what am I going to do to evenget care?
No, I think we need more accessto mental health stuff.
But we also need the mentalhealth people to not be so
indulgent, right?
And I think part of the problemis that people not trying to
fix everything through aprescription.

Sky (02:10:33):
Yeah, I completely agree.

Lisa (02:10:36):
I mean in the link to that , we're real quick.
People go into health likepsychology and stuff, like if
you ever notice that people thatare really looking into it,
because they all they had theirown mental stuff going on right,
so then they got really into itand then they go become
psychiatrists.
So you've got like the blindleading the blind half the time.
So statistically like it's true.
So so there has to be somerigidity and that's why I think

(02:10:57):
some should exist in society topush back against this right To
weed out the people that aren'treally suffering for real and
that can be healed in other ways, but for the people that need
to be healed in this way, okay.
I don't think anybody'sdisputing that.

Taf (02:11:13):
Yeah, but I think a lot of people just don't want to do
that.
And one thing that I'm lovingin this conversation about you,
lisa you're very willing tospeak your mind and, like argue
with people, and we need thatkind of disagreeableness because
it's agreeable people who justsay like, oh, you know, your
feelings are what matter most.
I'm never going to challengeyou.
I'm going to reaffirm everybelief that you come into my

(02:11:35):
office with.
That's the kind of attitudethat results in these bad mental
health outcomes, because you'rejust prescribing whatever the
person asks for rather thandoing the really hard work which
is like, actually I don't thinkthis would be good for you.
That's really hard to tell apatient, but sometimes that's
necessary to do so, you know,politically or in terms of

(02:11:56):
mental health, really, in soways, we just need people to
speak their mind and to behonest and to be a little bit
disagreeable, rather thanaffirming every single belief
that someone has thesedisagreeables made my life very
difficult?
No, it's.
Yeah, there's disadvantages,absolutely, unfortunately, like

(02:12:17):
agreeable people, people theycan sort of like.
You know I'm trying to be ahuge advantage, but I think
society is better off ifeveryone is willing to speak
their mind and so yeah, that'strue that is lisa, have you
always been this disagreeable?

Sky (02:12:33):
I just have to like oh, this has been my entire life.

Lisa (02:12:34):
I've been probably this works before because I didn't
have like a grip on who I'vebeen my entire life I've been
probably was worse beforebecause I didn't have like a
grip on who I was.
Sorry, charlie, chill, comehere.
Um, come here I.
I like I was always a very justyeah, just not disagreeable,
very blunt, right, like I'm fromphiladelphia but.
I always spoke my mind.
I'm sorry about whatever I wasthinking and people don't really

(02:12:58):
love that.
As a matter of fact, it washard for me to have
relationships and things likethat because you know,
especially as a tall I'm 5'11girl right, you know, every
guy's like man.
That's like a six foot personyelling at me and she's not like
she's.
I have very masculine energy,right like I'm really trying to
get into like my.
I dress in girly dresses and dothe makeup on my house.

(02:13:19):
It looks like a girl house butmy personality is like Whoa and
it's like a woman.

Brianna (02:13:27):
to me, to be totally honest with you, like this is a
personality type from the South.

Lisa (02:13:33):
Well, I know it's funny.
It's like the girls from theSouth, I know they're so.
They have this perfectly teeththat I'm jealous of and there's
perfect jawlines and they're allsitting there beautiful and
they're all like, yes, man, noman, I love them, but no, I
think it's a Northeast thing.
But out of all my friends andstuff, they were always like

(02:14:01):
Lisa just says whatever she'sthinking.
Crazy, a lot with crazy lisa,train wreck lisa, um, and a lot
of that was because I would sayexactly what I was thinking and
they didn't like it.
I'm like you know what thecrazy part is is that you're all
thinking it like whatever I wassaying it's something that they
would all be thinking, but Iwhat said it out loud on the
problem, like that's not howthis works.
But uh, society is really usedto conformity and no one wants
to be the one to.

Taf (02:14:19):
You know, stand out and say what they're thinking, because
there are consequences to that.
Like, let's be really honest,that is painful to do, but it is
the people who are willing todo that that ultimately break
down.
You know the mores of societythat hold us back.
They're the ones who point outthat the emperor has no clothes.

(02:14:39):
So yeah, I don't know I feellike I am also very much this
way, and then I'm just I'mtotally unwilling to just say
something for the purposes ofagreement or just have a smooth
conversation like I need to diginto the truth there, and so,
yeah, that probably also needsto happen with mental health.

Lisa (02:15:00):
Truth seeking is like important, you know I, but I
want people to know that I comeat it from like, and I think
this is where a lot gets lost intranslation on both sides.
I think that the left I reallybelieve my heart, that the left
really believes that they wantto make the world a better place
and they want everything to begood and happy.
I really think they think that.

(02:15:22):
I think that I had a class onetime, a human rights class,
where we were all fighting I wasthe only conservative there and
they were like, oh, republicansare evil, trump's evil, lisa's
evil.
And I'm like I turn around, like, yeah, who wants to partner
with me?
Like my life isn't easier bydoing this.
It'd be easier just to likeagree with you all Right, but

(02:15:43):
with you all right.
But like I'm being honest and Iwouldn't have been in a human
rights class if I didn't careabout human rights, right?
So, um, we all care about whatwe think is good and true, which
just getting there.
So the more that we demonizeeach other and listen, you can
go read my twitter there areplenty of times where I'm like I
hate the left and I want themto suffer and be miserable a few
times I get your adverts fortiktok.
it checks out, I mean but thetruth is I do want certain.
Again, I'll be honest with you.
I want certain times to suffer.
I, I couldn't.

(02:16:04):
I couldn't, you know, put aTrump sticker on my car without
fear of the windows being bustedout of it?
Right, I certainly, even tothis day, if you look at my
resume, can't get a job anywhere, even if I leave lives of
TikTok off there because I'm aconservative that lives in
Philly.
I am unhirable, okay, fromworking for right wing members
of Congress and then, even if Ijust let that, still unhirable.

(02:16:25):
But then if I take that and putin Tim Pool or lives of TikTok
or Tommy Robinson in the UK,then I am like person non grata,
I will have no job.
So, like you know, there areconsequences here.
But what I think is that theleft thinks that we hate them,
and I didn't before.
I used to write these longessays and it was cool to write

(02:16:47):
on Facebook.
I would like write these thingsabout how we need to approach
the, the right from a personalleft, from a compassionate side,
and really talk to them, andnot what.
And then I just got bangedagainst the head and it got to
the point where I've been calleda bigot, a uh, a Russian Putin
prof, whatever.
I've been called a bigot, aracist, a homophobe.

(02:17:09):
I've been spit at, I've beenthreatened, my kids have been
threatened.
Um, all kinds of stuff hashappened to me because of that
and I'm thinking like I want youto suffer just like I did.
I'm only human and I want toget back.
Okay, so through the people tothe leftist, the progressives
that did that were theprogressives that want to push
this nasty stuff on my kids.
Yeah, I want.

(02:17:29):
No, do I?

Taf (02:17:30):
want you guys to suffer.
No, do I want them to suffer.

Brianna (02:17:35):
Yes, I got an appointment downtown.
I've got a couple of questionsto ask before before we bounce.
The first is are the three ofus invited to Lisa's girly lunch
the next time?
We're all in town, yo.

Lisa (02:17:49):
I will, let's do it.
I'm totally down Like let'shang out.

Brianna (02:17:54):
I am like this is like who we genuinely are, like if
you didn't write us hair, wewould not be happy.
People Like you can see that.

Lisa (02:18:03):
No, but I'm not trying to like.
I'm not saying people should bedenied healthcare.
I'm saying we shouldn't bemandating these things.

Brianna (02:18:11):
I'm just saying.
I'm saying, like, as far as usjust getting along as fellow
citizens, I mean, you can see,this is who we authentically are
, right, yeah?

Lisa (02:18:19):
absolutely.
That's why I want to be honestwith you about the kid thing.
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.

Brianna (02:18:26):
Yeah, uh.
The second one is a question weask everyone on the show.
It's a little bit edgy, that'sokay.
Our traps gay.

Lisa (02:18:35):
Are what gay Are what?

Sky (02:18:39):
Are traps gay.

Taf (02:18:40):
Is it gay for a man to be attracted to a trans woman?

Lisa (02:18:44):
Yes, oh, yes, guys, all right.
So here's the deal.
Here's the deal.
Okay, if you look at like, okay, if you look at your ladies and
a guy's like, oh, that's areally pretty woman, right, okay
, that's not gay, because theydon't know that they're uh,

(02:19:05):
whatever.
But then if they say, okay,well, I went on sex with you and
you put down your pants and youhave a penis, then yes, it's
gay, then it's a little gay,still gay, really he's still gay
yeah, because, yeah, it just is.
It is because it's not I hate tosay it, it's like not an

(02:19:28):
authentic vagina.
If you want to, if you want tobe, okay, it's queer.
Maybe we'll put it that way.
I don't know the real term.

Brianna (02:19:34):
I think of it as bisexual that's better, but it's
definitely not.

Taf (02:19:37):
It doesn't have to be gay.
I don't know the real term.

Lisa (02:19:38):
I think of it as spicy heterosexual, spicy heterosexual
.

Taf (02:19:39):
That's better, but it's definitely not.

Lisa (02:19:41):
It doesn't have to be gay, it's definitely not straight.
If they have a vagina, if theyhave a penis, gay.
They have a vaginalplasty Inthe middle too.
Gay, but not straight, andthat's it.
Is that fair?

Brianna (02:19:57):
We ask everyone, we're trying to survey everyone, like
guys?

Lisa (02:20:04):
if there was a woman and she got a penis, a phalloplasty
and whatever, then I wanted tolike that would be gay.
Yeah, real quick.
Can I say one quick story,quick story.
This girl I knew, girl, I knowthis is what I want, I say is
really wrong.
This girl I knew, she's reallycute, heavier sack girl, had a

(02:20:28):
problem dating.
She was going on dating appsfirst date ever.
She finally gets somebody tolike whatever.
She matches with this guy.
She meets him a couple times.
He's studying to be a doctor orwhatever.
And so he she gets her firstkiss.
She comes and tells us and he'slike, he's like, oh, I'm having
surgery this week, but I'llcall you after.
And she's like so happy aboutit.
Right, he was, he was a she whowas having surgery, never told

(02:20:54):
her.
So her first experience as awoman, getting her first kiss as
a heterosexual girl from whatshe thought was a man was
actually a female and that waswrong.
So that needs to stop too.

Taf (02:21:06):
You probably need to tell people at the very least.

Lisa (02:21:08):
It's very misleading and it was really traumatic for her
as somebody who didn't even gether first kiss until 24 anyway,
and let me tell you that's agood beard.
He looked like a man to me, youknow.
I mean, oh, he's cute.
I said it right, you got it.
You got to disclose that.
Guys like that has to be adisclosure.
I'm married this problem is manyyears past me yeah, well, you

(02:21:31):
know, I'm not saying I'll leaveit to the next generation to
fight this but since we wereasking, I wanted to tell that
story because I felt so bad forthat girl.

Taf (02:21:39):
But but anyway and men are such like visual creatures like
they will look at like a curvypiece of driftwood and if it
looks like it has boobs, they'lllike get wholly quiet right and
so like men are just like, theydon't really care.
If it's like actually a womanthey're looking at, if it's
woman shaped, that's enough fora lot of them and I think that's

(02:21:59):
like that's probably a verystraight quality to have.
And then I think what you'resaying is like when the when the
pants come down and it's nolonger just like the image of a
pretty woman, that's when itbecomes a little bit gay, which
I think is right and everyonethat we've asked this question
to you, that's like the standardanswer.

Lisa (02:22:17):
Yeah, I think, and I think that's fair.
I mean, whatever Any otherquestions for us.

Taf (02:22:25):
That was really the most important question, yeah.

Brianna (02:22:28):
I have no record about that.

Lisa (02:22:30):
Well, I appreciate you guys inviting me and I'm sorry
that I talk so much.

Taf (02:22:35):
No, you're delightful, you were great.

Lisa (02:22:38):
And I really enjoyed this conversation.
You know what we should do.
We should have these type ofconversations.
We should do it on the culturewar.
We should have all three of youguys and have these same type
of conversations, and I think alot of people aren't having it.
We should get somebody whodisagrees with you guys a little
more.
You guys can be the middlepeople.
I'll be the strong other wayand then, you know, they can be

(02:23:01):
the ones pushing up saying thatI'm like the worst racist bigot
ever.
But I'm not so it is what it is.

Taf (02:23:08):
But I appreciate it, which is always fun when you can fight
with someone Like actuallyfight and like enjoy that,
Because it's so rare to meetsomeone who you can like like
debate with and then come awayfrom the debate being like well,
that was fun, like I'm glad wehad that interaction.

Lisa (02:23:20):
Most people cannot handle that, but you guys are great.
Well, I appreciate being byanything else, brianna, because
I'm like thanks for coming on.

Brianna (02:23:27):
I gotta go, uh, gotta go downtown, so all right.

Lisa (02:23:30):
Well, best of luck to you guys.
I love you and I hope you allhave like happy, healthy and
good luck with kids or whateveryeah thanks for coming on.

Sky (02:23:37):
Thanks, she is a firecracker, oh my gosh.

Taf (02:23:41):
Yes, I just want to like talk with her more about any one
of these issues because I feellike adoption, like I could like
drill down on that, I don'tknow if yeah, and it's like oh
yeah, it's just like it's hardbecause you don't want to like
turn the whole show into like adebate about one thing.
So you have to know like okay,you know whatever, but you could
definitely I could definitelytalk this long I really wanted

(02:24:03):
to lean in on her.

Sky (02:24:04):
Like standard for like I don't know, heterosexual
dynamics is like that's theacceptable point.
Because I'm like, what aboutdivorces?
What about alcoholics?
Like there's so many like, yeah, like layers that you could
just be like why are you justcalling like out trans people
here this is so and gay people?
Like what the heck she?

Taf (02:24:22):
was alluding to this, but it is like gay couples that have
really good outcomes foradopted children, and she was
saying like she was preemptingthis by saying like, oh, they're
richer and so they get betteroutcomes, and so that's an
interesting counterpoint to belike.
Well, it seems like adoption iskind of a selection effect,
where the only people that canactually afford to adopt are the

(02:24:44):
ones that already kind of havetheir lives in order, and so
maybe it's actually better forthese children to get adopted
out to gay couples.
Now, I don't know if I'd reallymake that argument, but if you
just go by the standard of likeyou know what does the seems
like maybe there's an argumentfor gay people, which is
interesting at the very leastyep right, amazing, amazing good

(02:25:08):
stuff.
Shall we close out the show?

Sky (02:25:12):
yeah, should we close it out?
Brie, you need to go by two,okay, all right.
Well, okay, we'll just go aheadand, um, well, all right,
that's it for doll cast today.
Um, huge thank you to LisaElizabeth for joining us.
She was awesome.
Uh, so much energy and quitesome crazy opinions, um, but

(02:25:33):
overall, great guests.
Um, and, as always, politedisagreement slash a good bit of
agreement too.
You know that's what we like todo here on Dollcast.
So, again now, if you areinterested in looking into more
content and our prior episodes,just make sure to check us out
at thedollcastshowcom.
That's dollcastshowcom.

(02:25:54):
We're on Spotify, applePodcasts, number of different
platforms, and make sure tofollow us on YouTube and TikTok.
Youtube is the best one.
Youtube is the one you want todo.
Yes, exactly yeah, youtube isthe best.
Um, so, anyways, until nexttime, stay fabulous.

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