E2x03 Brad Polumbo wouldn't date F2Ms

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kate (00:00):
Yes, let's do it.
Yeah, let's do it, all right.

Brianna (00:08):
Welcome to DollCast.

Taf (00:13):
With Kelly Cadigan.
I know you guys are going totell me I'm crazy, but I think
all gay men would benefit from agender transition.

Brianna (00:20):
Rihanna Wu.

Kate (00:22):
Do you know who Rihanna.

Brad (00:22):
Wu is.

Sky (00:35):
It was people on the line.
I said you were Rihanna Wu, soI don't know who she is now
session.

Taf (00:40):
Having your story heard, having people empathize with you
on that kind of political level, I think is really hard to do.

Brianna (00:48):
It's the Dollcast.
Mostly normal women.

Sky (00:55):
Hey there, welcome back to Dollcast.
I'm your host, skylar Bogert,and this is a podcast where we
dive into the human experience,all while having just a little
bit of fun along the way.
Today, I'm joined by myfabulous co-host, as always,
brianna Wu, our fearless maven.

Brianna (01:12):
Hi, brianna, so good to see you, I do want to say the
woman that recorded that intro.
Her house burned down in LosAngeles this week.
So shout out to Amanda Wynn Leelee.
We understand if it's going tobe difficult for you to say
taft's name correctly in theintro for a while it's never

(01:33):
gonna happen.
Yes, I will fly out there andgive her a mic, uh, to help her
out.

Taf (01:38):
So I think eventually it's just going to become a running
joke.
That is just totally wrong.

Brianna (01:45):
Or you can change your name.

Taf (01:46):
That would help the show a lot, yeah, or I could just
change the name, yeah.

Sky (01:53):
Oh, that's devastating to hear, though.
Well, either way, we'llcontinue on and just persevere.
You may notice that there's anew person, a new guest here
today.
Kate, the lovely Kate, isfilling in for kelly this week.
Welcome, kate, glad to have youhere, thank you sky.

Brianna (02:10):
I appreciate it of course, our girl kelly cadigan
got engaged this week she'sdoing it today, so very exciting
.
She asked for the week off andI happen to know a lot of famous
people, so I know Kate.
It was honored.
I reached out to her and I'mlike, oh my God, please say yes,

(02:30):
we don't have another host.
And she said yes, so here weare.

Kate (02:34):
I think fame is a lot to put on me, but no, not so much.

Sky (02:40):
Well, we're glad to have you here.

Brianna (02:42):
Yeah, so famous in our minds for sure, yeah yeah, do
you want to tell people yourstory, kate?
So, just so people know,everyone my age that
transitioned looked up to Kate.
Like there are any number oflike gorgeous trans influencers
today.
Kate was the original super hot, gorgeous, cool trans

(03:03):
influencer that everyone lookedup to.
She had an ultra famous blog.
We're editing some pictures ofher back in the day.
Uh, like genuinely stunning anduh was just super inspirational
to most people my age, thetransition.
So, kate, it's a real honor tohave you here today.

Kate (03:21):
Thank you I struggle with uh, with flattering, uh, with
flattering, uh, it's I don'tknow.
I've never gotten over that.

Ben (03:28):
Um, and I certainly didn't intend to be as influential as
as I was to that small group ofpeople.

Kate (03:33):
Um, but it definitely turned out that way and um, I
was thankful for the opportunityat the time.

Brianna (03:39):
So do you want to tell people a little bit about
yourself?
What have you been up to in thelast 20 years, girl, uh, yeah
um, it's kind of boring right,like so I I disappeared from um
in 2003.

Kate (03:53):
I kind of faded away off the public internet and I still
participated on some you knowprivate forums and had some
friends and whatnot.
But by 2006 I kind of wentinvisible and just disappeared,
kind of purged everything transrelated and just got on with it.
Got married in 2010.

(04:13):
We've been together for 20years but it took a while to get
married Worked, traveled, lived.
Kind of pseudo-retired in 2019and started a livestock farm as
you do.
Oh, wow, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, it's wild.
Until recently, trans hasn'treally been a thing in my life.

(04:34):
I just kind of I literally went15 years without thinking about
it.

Taf (04:41):
So that's so crazy.
So what brought you back then?
Because you're making, I don'tknow quite as much.
So it was a bit of a midlifecrisis a little bit of like
coming to terms with aging andthat triggered all kinds of
emotional stuff right and so, asI'm cleaning my emotional house
, there's this rug in the cornerand I peek under that freaking
rug and there's all this trancegarbage stuck under this

(05:01):
emotional rug.

Kate (05:02):
Yeah, and.

Taf (05:03):
I was like god, you, I should have probably dealt with
that stuff like 20 years ago,but like I don't know.

Kate (05:09):
Let's start cleaning.
And so I got online and Istarted like researching, I
stumbled across some, a fewladies and I realized I didn't
have a modern position on transissues.
I was clueless.
It was so ironic, painfully so.
I was like I gotta figure thisout, I gotta get a position and

(05:33):
I think now, a year and a halflater, I think I know what.
I think I'm open to change ofcourse.
Yeah, so that's it.

Taf (05:41):
Aging seasonal depression Nice, Well, we seasonal
depression, life stuff, niceWell, I'm glad to have you, for
sure.

Brianna (05:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's a real honor.
I mean, if you don't mind measking what are kind of your
positions?
I know you've been thinkingthrough some stuff, kind of what
conclusions have you drawn?
How are you feeling?

Kate (06:03):
Oh gosh, there's so many issues, right?
My initial, let me rewind.
What conclusions have you drawn?
How are you feeling?
Oh gosh, there's so many issues, right?
My initial, let me rewind.
So I started transition in 1998.

Brianna (06:12):
And you know, back then , there really wasn't much
discussion.

Kate (06:15):
We all kind of figured it out on our own.
In my case, I didn't meetanother trans person for like
three and a half years aftertrans, you know, after starting
transition.
So we really just kind of grewup in cis culture and just
integrated and that was that wasour mindset.
We want to get through it andget on with it and I'm, not

(06:37):
surprisingly, still kind of feellike that.
I feel like I feel liketransition is a medical process
that we have to go through tosurvive and once you're through
that life and I've never had atrans identity.
Really it was thrust upon mewhen I was like in the public

(06:57):
eye a little bit, but like it'snever been a defining thing in
my life.
So, yeah, I have a transexperience.
For sure it doesn't come up ata doctor's office occasionally,
yeah, but that's, that's reallyabout it.

Sky (07:11):
Yeah, yeah, wow, that's so relatable.
I like I feel like before I waslike online and doing doll
casts and all these differentjust video opportunities.
I was very much in the sameboat.
Granted, it was a lot shorterlived um, cause I only started
transition in 2018, but forthose like couple of years where
, like I was starting passingand I was just moving about in

(07:33):
life, like being trans justdidn't matter at all.
It never came up, it wasn't abig deal.
And now that I'm doing morestuff online, it's like it's
actually in the forefront of mymind all the time and I'm
interacting with people and it'slike, oh yeah, you're trans and
it's like, oh yeah, I guess so,but that's like kind of a small
part of me ultimately.
So very much relate with whatyou were saying.
Like, through that process, Iwas just kind of curious.

(07:57):
You said, like with aging, wasthere like a milestone where you
were like, okay, now it's liketime for me to come out and
speak more, or is it like, wasit more just kind of gradual
waking up in this, like therewas more momentum behind that
decision to like be on here andlike come out again?

Kate (08:14):
Yeah.
The groundbreaking point was atext from Brianna yesterday.

Brianna (08:22):
Brianna- shows up and your life is just changed.
Like that, I'm like Willy Wonka.

Kate (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, it was amazing .
She did the cane stick tumbleand sorry classic old person
joke.

Taf (08:39):
Yeah, I've only watched the Tim and Chris show.

Kate (08:41):
It was definitely more gradual.
I guess it started with, sothis might sound a little weird.
Uh, so with aging I I dove into, uh, surgical solutions for uh,
not looking ancient and I thinksome of that like using surgery

(09:02):
as a way to kind of become,using surgery as a way to become
more comfortable with myself, Ithink triggered some of the old
stuff as well.
Like it was like oh, these areold patterns that I recognize
and I was cognizant of it, but Imight have leaned into it as
well.

Brianna (09:21):
So I really understand that Because you know I had I
don't mind saying $100,000 ofyou know plastic surgery last
year and you know part of thatwas anti-aging but part of it is
just, you know, like my FFS, Ihad very early techniques with
that.
It wasn't, it didn't get me asfar as I needed to go and I

(09:42):
think I look much better now.
It didn't get me as far as Ineeded to go and I think I look
much better now.
It's been really interestingfor me because when I was
through my 20s and 30s, no onevalued me or gave me
opportunities because of mylooks.
I mean, I wasn't horriblelooking, I just wasn't
particularly pretty, you know.
And now, like I find, havinggone through this, like I feel

(10:05):
really good when I look in themirror nowadays which is really
odd to happen in your 40s likewhere you're getting better
looking as you get older.
So I don't know, I think it'sit's a challenge and I don't
think trans women are alone infacing that challenge as we age,
if that makes sense to you.

Kate (10:23):
I mean, it makes sense to me.
I hate, I hate that I'm asvulnerable to it as I am.
And I wonder, I wonder, if youknow growing up feeling pretty,
you know?
I thankfully I have more in mylife than that, but I wonder if.
All right, let me give you aquick rewind.
I went to Vegas in last Januaryand the last time I was in

(10:47):
Vegas I was in my twenties and I, you know, used to think I was
a rock star.
So I'm in Vegas with a bunch ofmy old friends for 50th birthday
parties and I'm like, realizingI'm invisible in this city,
like no one notices me, and itjust kind of hit me and I was
talking to my friend Erin andshe's like, don't you love it?

(11:07):
And I'm like no, I freakinghate it, it's awful and it's
just vanity and it's justself-worth and it's, it's ugly
and and you know, but I thinkit's normal.
Unfortunately I do too yeah.

Brianna (11:23):
I think it's.
It's very relatable.
I mean, obviously, you know, ciswomen deal with this as well
and trying to stay relevant, andI would imagine for you it's
like because you were so,especially in your 20s, like
held up as like the ideal thatpeople should shoot for.
You know, I I can imagine thatbeing really hard.
Um, what I love is I've gottento know you is, you know and

(11:47):
this is just me being honestlike back in the day I enjoyed
your work, but it wasn't so muchhow you looked, as much as I
thought you were a reallyskillful writer, really
struggling with stuff in areally personal way and in
having an honest conversationthat we just were not having 20
years ago.
So I really love your work forthat.

(12:09):
And the reason I brought youhere today is like, look,
obviously you're gorgeous, buthonestly, I think it's because
you're witty and smart and kindand thoughtful and I think the
entire point to Dollcast is kindof figuring out where we need
to go as a community, and Ithink there's a lot of value in
truth in what you've experiencedand you know what this next

(12:31):
generation of trans girls tohear it and and love you as much
as I do so.

Kate (12:36):
Welcome to the show kate, yeah, the rare raw honesty is um
.
Is it really important?
But it's hard to get at becauseit's vulnerability.
And you take someone goingthrough transition and it's the
most vulnerable experience mostof us have ever encountered and

(12:56):
will ever encounter and toexpose yourself during that
takes either exceptional braveryor exceptional desperation, and
I think I was the latter,honestly, I would love to say
that I was brave, but I think Ijust hadn't seen the list, or at
least I felt that way yeah, soI guess I don't know as much

(13:19):
about your like transitionjourney or, like you mentioned,
it was 1998.

Sky (13:24):
I was a little kid in the 90s so I don't know as well
about like what that time waslike.
But can you just describe alittle bit more, if you don't
mind, like how, I guess how youfigured out like you wanted to
transition and what that journeylooked like for you in 1998,
where I imagine there was lessaccess to like medical

(13:45):
procedures and finding a doctorwas probably harder, like I'm
just I'm just really curioushonestly, about what that was
like.
Yeah, so we were.

Kate (13:53):
We were a bit bereft of of role models, of successful,
integrated women.
Yeah, lynn Conway was amonstrous resource for me.
She was, she was perfect andthat she achieved in her life
and all that stuff.
And I was lucky enough to getto know her and a few others

(14:14):
that had gotten on with it andjust were willing to give their
time and energy to me.
So that was monstrous and thatwas really the breaking point
for me.
You know, like like just havingone role model, just one, that
first person that I was like, ohmy God, like I can have a life.
They were very rare back then,and that's that's what triggered

(14:37):
me and I remember, you know, Ithink I assume that most people
remember that that moment, thatmoment where you're like oh my
god damn, um, and that wasdecember 1998 so it was late
1998 I just started grad school.

Brad (14:51):
I was uh at the university of wisconsin in madison and uh
that's where my husband got hisphd.

Kate (14:58):
That's crazy, yeah yeah, um, uh, yeah, so we were
probably kind of together.
When was he?

Brianna (15:08):
in.
I don't know.
Frank is older than I am, so Iwas kind of like he's 12 years
older, so he'll be talking.
Oh, I was in kindergarten,frank.

Kate (15:22):
I'm sorry.
Yeah, so I kind of I waspragmatic Skye.
I've actually watched a few ofyour things um prior to this and
um your sensibility yeah, yoursensibility is spot on with how
I went about.
Things on the toe, in the water,gradual, reversible.
Make sure you're confident,make sure you're aware.
Um, you know, we waited uh 20years.

(15:44):
Let's not go crazy, let's justbe sure.
And so that's what I did.
Um, I started immediately withlike hair stuff, um like removal
and uh hormones, but, of course, doctors weren't a thing, so I
was black marketing.
For three years I black marketedand just kind of dealt with

(16:05):
things myself.
I did not go through, eventhough Harry Benjamin stuff was
locked in.
At that point I found my ownway and, but that was lack of
availability my doctor literallysaid no, never really.
I said at least can you you domy blood work.

(16:25):
If.

Ben (16:26):
I'm going to do this black market.

Kate (16:28):
Can you at least?
Keep me updated on bloodresults, and he did that, so I
at least had some data to adjustmy HRT.
Oh my Fascinating.
Three years later I did thisweird androgynous thing where I
was like I do not want to flipthe switch until I can flip this

(16:49):
switch, which is kind of reallydumb, because by the end I just
couldn't pass as a boy anymore.
I got FFS literally three daysafter I went full time.
Oh, wow, okay, who did your FFS?
Oh yeah, I've also had somequestions.
I mean oh, wow, okay, who didyour FFS?
Oh yeah, I've also had somequestions.
I mean the only person?
Yeah, who was it?

(17:10):
Osterhout?
Yeah, yeah, wow, you got the OG.
Wow, yeah, yeah, the OG.
I mean, what are your options?

Taf (17:18):
True, okay.
So I have a question Going fromyou, know, realizing.
Okay, so I have a questionGoing from you, know, realizing
that you might want totransition to eventually
flipping the switch to FFS.
How long were you like in thatin between phase before you flip
the switch, and had FFS Threeyears?

Kate (17:43):
Okay, okay, that's a decent amount of time, though.
Yeah, so I've been hormonallyfemale for a long time.
I was binding to pass asing.
Yeah, yeah I.
I remember thinking like am Ithe freaking only trans girl on
the planet to bind her chest?
Like what the hell am I doing?

Brianna (17:59):
do you have any pictures of this, because you
must have looked.
Uh, uh, I I'm trying to thinkof a boy.

Taf (18:05):
Like a trans guy probably.

Brianna (18:06):
Yeah.

Taf (18:06):
Yeah.

Ben (18:07):
Yeah.

Taf (18:07):
Like a pre-transition trans guy.

Kate (18:10):
Honestly, I, I just I could not pass as a boy.
Uh, like I would be out in likeshirt and tie, like boy mode,
and like people would come upand go.
You are so beautiful and I'd belike well that's just confusing
.

Taf (18:24):
I mean, that's quite flattering, though.

Kate (18:26):
Ultimately, yeah, um yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, of course,
but I don't know if I heard itat the time.

Taf (18:34):
You know, right, I mean you never do um, I mean I don't
know.
I relate in so many waysbecause I also I think that I
sort of came onto the internetand people like immediately were
very interested in me because Iwas transitioning, so young and
as I've like gotten a littlebit older and there's just so
many like beautiful trans womenonline and I've like removed

(18:56):
myself a little bit.
I've had your like vaguestexperience where you just get
like fewer, you just get lessattention in general and then
you like sort of realize you'relike, oh my god, actually I
really liked that attention thatI used to get, and so that can
be sort of cognitively difficultto deal with.

Kate (19:17):
You don't really appreciate it, like when you're
in it, I think no, um, I Ididn't, you know I I think I it
all just happened so fast for melike I went from I went from oh
, now I'm full time to being hiton by celebrities that's crazy

(19:39):
wow and uh you know, being yeah,it was it was I you know, it
was like a tornado in my brain.
I didn't know how to process.
And then you added the fame ontop of it, like this weird like
granted, it's internet fame andit's like 1990s, 2000s internet

(19:59):
fame, but you roll that all inand I was I was sloppy, yeah
it's sort of inevitable.

Taf (20:07):
But I will say, you know, growing up on a later internet.
So I was born in 2000.
And so I witnessed a kind oftransition in the internet space
from there being trans womenwho I sort of idolized and who I
sort of saw like occasionalpictures floating by from
idolized and who I sort of sawlike occasional pictures

(20:28):
floating by from.
And there are images that arejust like seared into my brain
of like gorgeous trans womenthat you would just like see in
the ether and then never connectwith.
And now I feel like the way werelate to the internet is so
different.
All of those people I can likego to their twitter page or
their instagram or whatever, andI am seeing like live updates
on their life, and so there's somuch more connection and there

(20:53):
really used to be like an era, Ifeel, of like a mysterious and
enigmatic and like gorgeoustrans women you sort of idolize
but like feel so distant and Ican just so clearly picture you
falling into that role for somany people.
You know, I don't know if freecan like attest to that, but
that's just what I imagine.
Well, it was.

Brianna (21:14):
It was the fact that how can I say this?
You know, you've got tounderstand.
For kate and I, the image oftrans girls was jerry springer,
right?
Um, yeah, so it would be somecross-dresser looking person and
you'd see kate, and look it's,it's for me.
I I never had any like desireto be gorgeous.

(21:38):
I just wanted to have a lifewhere I didn't feel trapped all
the time, like I had to act likea boy and people would treat me
like that, like I just wanted aboyfriend and a career.
I didn't want to hide what Iwas thinking and feeling all the
time.
I didn't want to look like somedrag queen on Jerry Springer.
So Kate was very inspirationalto a lot of us because it was

(22:01):
like look, you can transitionand you can look normal and you
can be normal if that makessense to you.
So, um, you know, like youreally were the prototype, uh,
trans influencer back in the dayI mean there were a few of us,
fair enough, but yeah, were they, were they?

Kate (22:22):
I mean I think so, like ta you were mentioning, on the
updates and I actually in a verylike, in a very like
antediluvian early internet way,I tried to do that with a blog
this is before they were calledblogs even but like I updated

(22:43):
every few days with a fairlyusually a pretty long story, and
so people would constantlycheck in and follow me through
my to my travels and journeys.
Um, I lived on the road backthen, so it was always newness
and excitement and all that.

Brad (23:03):
But yeah, so I tried to do that and I think that level of
engagement changes thecalculation a lot.

Taf (23:09):
Yes, you were really like a trendsetter in so many ways.
Yeah, she was.

Brianna (23:13):
I watched too much sex in the city, probably that show
is super problematic if youre-watch it by the way you're
like oh my gosh, carrie not agewell.
You're like oh my gosh, carriewas actually a horrible person
Like I kind of hate her.

Kate (23:30):
I still haven't had that take out of the day, though I
didn't like her back in the day,All right.

Brianna (23:35):
well, Skye, do you want to finish introducing everyone
to the show?

Sky (23:38):
We did the thing where we go on course, sure, yeah, okay,
go of course, sure, yeah, um,okay, yeah.
So we have brianna, and then,and then we have taftash and um,
she's joining us again.
Our muse, as always, ourfavorite co-host.
Um and so, and then um, andthen we have myself, but sadly

(23:59):
kelly cannot be here, and so wewe have Kate filling in for her
today.

Taf (24:04):
Yeah, and Kelly has a very happy reason not to be here.
I know that's amazing.
Yeah, kelly's made it.
She's married to a straight man.
That's the dream.
That's the dream, yeah.
So I rewatched Envy slashDesire this weekend, envy slash

(24:28):
desire this weekend, and so Ihave, like the the old discourse
on my brain trans men andstraight men.
What are the, what are thepossibilities?
And clearly there's some goodpossibility because we've got
brie and kelly, both, um, eithermarried or set to be married I
don't think it's that hard tofind a straight guy.

Brianna (24:44):
I really don't.

Taf (24:44):
I mean I mean, I found it difficult, but I think that if
you're committed, you can makeit happen for sure.

Brianna (24:51):
I think like the dating time for me was really ideal
for it because there wasn't likelike the dating apps didn't
exist, so you had to go out inreal life and actually meet
people.
So you know, I would go out andjust honestly go hit on boys I
thought were cute.
It worked really well.

(25:13):
And then you know, likeyesterday we go on a date and we
click and tell them I was transat that point, you know, before
kissing or anything like that,and they were honestly
interested.

Sky (25:22):
So you know that's how we used to do it back in the day,
you didn't get a whole lot ofrejection, like I feel like I I
mean yeah, I was like gonna saylike I mean a couple of times
that I've mentioned it, onlylike twice the both the guys
were like no, no thanks anymore,like they were over it, and I
was like, oh, okay, but I wasjust kind of like whatever about

(25:44):
it, cause for me it was a bonus, um fling, so it wasn't like a
an essential thing, um, but ithas been like I mean, it's
definitely true that sometimesthere's a risk of rejection when
going up to someone like that,and I think, like dating apps
can kind of eliminate some ofthat risk, um, by like matching

(26:04):
you up with people that arealready interested.
Yeah, how did you meet yourhusband, kate?

Kate (26:11):
It was first off.
I think I was ready, like Idon't think you ever meet a
spouse unless you're, like,emotionally ready.
Yeah, it was random, so I'lltry to tell it quick.
I went to Best Buy, I made itto the monitor, I was like oh.

Sky (26:25):
I'll look at video games because let's lean into the
trans video game cliche, I'lllean back into whatever.

Ben (26:32):
So I went through the video game aisle and I was like, oh,
I'm going to buy this video game.
It's like some Star.

Kate (26:36):
Wars-y video game.
Fine, fair enough.
I brought it home and I waslike oh, there's people, I'm
playing with people and I met,meet people and we play together
.
It was awesome and I met thisguy and he ended up being my
husband eventually.
But we just played this gametogether for like six months
just in our and like then wegive a phone conversation, and

(26:59):
then he was in um, santa barbara, I was in boston at the time so
it was was Thanksgiving and I'mlike Yano, what are you doing
for Thanksgiving?

Ben (27:09):
And I'm thinking about cooking a Thanksgiving lobster.

Kate (27:12):
So he flew out.
All my friends were on speeddial because weirdo coming to
visit who knows?
Yeah, so it turned out okay andthen we went a few months later
, I was traveling to England.
And I was like, hey, what areyou doing for the next month?
And so we took a month off ofwork and went to England with
him.
And our second week in EnglandI was like, ooh, actually, right

(27:35):
after this, do you want to goto India for a?

Brianna (27:37):
month and he was like, let me call my work.

Kate (27:40):
So we spent two months traveling the world together and
we're like this.
This is kind of working.

Taf (27:46):
That is quite a way to jumpstart a relationship.

Kate (27:50):
Yeah, yeah, and then fast forward 20 years later.

Brianna (27:54):
So we were talking like for me, skye was talking on how
, for her, the dating apps, likeyou, deal with rejection
sometimes.
How did like?

Kate (28:06):
obviously I had guys reject me sometimes for being
trans.
How did you find that back inthe day?
Okay, so this is gonna becontentious.
Um, there weren't rules backthen, that's right.
So we were all trying to figurethis out on our own and so when
I approached the relationship,um, disclosure was about what I
wanted out of the relationship.
So if I thought it was someoneI could love, then, yeah,

(28:29):
transparency and honesty areparamount, and those discussions
may not have been before allintimacy, but they were
certainly before the bigintimacy.
But, like, I had a lot ofrelationships where I just
didn't I will admit tounderstanding what you're

(28:52):
talking about.

Brianna (28:53):
Uh, there were not really rules or discourse back
then, so you know like, yeah, itwas a different era.

Kate (29:02):
I the worst was I had.
I called him my human dilator.
I had a guy that I know soscandalous.
I feel like such an ass.
I'm so sorry to the world, but,like I really liked him and I
dated him for like 18 months,you know I didn't love him.

(29:25):
I really liked him, though, andI still feel bad about that,
because you know he's the onlyperson from anyone that I've
ever dated.
He's the only person that I'veleft in the past, and the reason
he didn't come forward with meis because of a lack of honesty,
and the reason he didn't comeforward with me is because of

(29:45):
the lack of honesty.
Yeah, and you know, I guess Iwould encourage people to be
honest, be upfront, tell yourstory.

Ben (29:53):
You don't have to use specific terminology or words,
but you have to be true toyourself and true to your story.

Kate (30:00):
Yeah, I wish I would have done that more often but I
didn't.

Brianna (30:03):
But don't you think that gets you like crammed into
certain boxes, kate?
I mean because today it's likea formula for running into like
I hate this word, chaser butguys that are really, really
interested in trans women andlike object.
You objectify you about thatand it's like if you want a
relationship with the, with anormal, like heterosexual guy,

(30:25):
like he's gotta like you for youin like spite of being trans
right, like my husband has neverdated a trans woman, is not
particularly interested in transwomen just clicked with me and
appreciates me, and that'sexactly what you want.
I think today it's like thesedating apps.
It's like you've got toclassify and disclose so early

(30:45):
on that it's, it's a trap.
So I actually feel really sorryfor trans girls nowadays I do
now as well.

Kate (30:54):
I?
I do not have advice, so I just, you know, two decades of
monogamy.
I'm clueless on how to how.
To date I wouldn't have a clue,um, but it does seem
exceptionally limiting it'sfrustrating for sure.

Taf (31:13):
I think dating apps have made it so easy to get casual
sex and a lot of young guys likethat's all they want, right?
And so if you're on a dating appin your 20s and you're looking
for guys to date, you're goingto find lots of guys who just
want casual sex, and, frankly,that's true for non-trans women

(31:36):
as well.
So our problem is like, not eventhat unique, um, but then you
know, as you get older, thefrustrating thing that a lot of
women find to be true is thatwhat, whereas in their 20s they
were able to get tons oftemporary boyfriends, you know,
flings and whatnot, they getinto their 30s or 40s and if
they're still dating, theyrealize that like, oh, actually

(31:59):
now it's way harder to find guys, and it used to be that tons of
guys were just interested insex, and now guys are just
interested in relationship, butthey're interested in, like,
younger women or like you knowvery, you know, hot women, and
that can be really hard for somewomen.
So, yeah, it's not fun outthere in the dating world.

(32:20):
So getting a husband, um, youknow, and and taking him to the
end, that is definitely I think.
I think you guys made the rightmove.

Brianna (32:30):
So be honest, though y'all Don't you think the
quality of men out there hasdecreased?
Because I look at some of these20-something guys and I'm just
like wow, like most guys when Iwas in my 20s had a job.

Taf (32:44):
you know just just three, four yeah, I don't know if it's
decreased, but it's definitelyit's grim.
I will say you have to sortthrough a lot of guys and I feel
like I have very high standards, which is another problem, like
when I was trying to date men,you know, before I found my

(33:05):
partner.
Um, yeah, lots of guys who Iwas just not that into all right
.

Brianna (33:10):
How's the dating market ?
Ben, we're talking about thehorrors of dating.
How bad is it today?

Ben (33:19):
oh, my god, uh, I hear that congratulations are in order
for one yes.

Sky (33:24):
For Kelly.

Ben (33:27):
Not here with us, oh sorry.
Oh, there's a new person Hello.

Brianna (33:30):
That's right.
This is Kate.
She's famous.
She's filling in.
Kelly's doing engagement stuff,so Okay Ben thank you for
coming back to the show.

Sky (33:40):
Wanted to kind of get a little bit more detail on.
I think that you had publisheda story or a study or at least
talked about, yeah, somethingabout one in 1000 kids being on
HRT, if I have that correctly.
Yeah, by the time they hit 17.

Ben (33:57):
So I can just do it, yeah, which is interesting because you
know, part of what I would liketo talk about is the framing of
these studies, because if youtell one group of people one in
1,000 children age 17 who haveprivate insurance are on
cross-sex hormones for gendertransition, some people will

(34:18):
react like you all did, like wow, that's a lot.
And other people will say wetold you it wasn't that many
people.
So it's interesting howsubjective these objective
numbers can be, as objective asthey might be in these studies.
So what it was, it was a studyled out of Harvard's public
health school.
It was published in what'scalled a research letter in
Gemma Pediatrics last Monday,and research letters are shorter

(34:40):
.
I suppose they must have verytight word caps so you don't get
a lot of the data that youmight otherwise like, but in any
case it's peer-reviewed.
So what it found?
They analyzed about 5 milliondata on 5 million adolescents
and they defined that verybroadly between the ages of 8
and 17 years old who had privatehealth insurance.
So in general, these findingsare generalizable to people with

(35:03):
large group plans.
So you know people are onMedicaid or children are
uninsured, and the uninsuredrate, mind you of children tends
to be fairly low because ofvarious federal programs in any
case.

Brianna (35:12):
But the rates in those groups might be lower and I know
that, brianna, you and I havediscussed how you think that the
rate might be higher than whatwas reported amongst people with
private health insurance,because they might be getting it
through the internet orwhatever, but that's something
yeah, I mean, if you had toguess what, what percentage of
kids today, because you'recloser to it than I do, like
diying when I'm in my privatetrans discords where there are

(35:36):
minors present, like you know,it seems like there are a lot of
people that are diying, or doyou disagree with that?
Would you have to guess?
It's higher, lower, how do youfeel about that?

Taf (35:46):
Jeez, I have no idea how many people are DIYing.
I mean I reacted like wow,that's a surprising amount of
people.
I know that lots of people, Ithink, massively overestimate
the number of kids on HRT.
There's like a famous clip ofMatt Walsh talking to Joe Rogan
where he he like wildly by likea million yeah, millions of

(36:09):
people which is just like, ofcourse, like that's absurd and
so like I don't know, as someonewho has like a more realistic
expectation for how difficult itis for adolescents to start
this process in general, um, onein a thousand seems like a lot
to me.
In terms of how many people DIY.
I think it's going to be, youknow, pretty rare, you know,

(36:34):
maybe like one in 10,000 or onein 100,000, maybe something like
that.
Right, you know, off by afactor of 10.
Do you think so Really, I thinkso.
Yeah, I mean, I think that,like it's easy to really
overestimate these things and Ithink that for every you know 10

(36:58):
or you know 20 trans kids whoare getting HRT through private
insurance I think it's probablylike one or two you know people
who are getting it through graymarkets.
But yeah, I think it's probablyeasy to overestimate and
probably not a huge number, butalso not like you know nothing
to totally ignore, right.

Ben (37:12):
So in any case, keeping that in mind as a fact potential
factor, what they found wasthat out of these 5 million
adolescents they started at ageeight, because that's generally
the earliest age of a normalpuberty.
That isn't precocious.
So they figured, you know, forpuberty blockers they might
start that young and then in theclassic hormones a bit later.
So they found that overall thatone less than one in one

(37:36):
thousand children were onclassic hormones in particular.
So that was the top linefinding that was presented in
the press release and this ispresented as being a very low
figure.
And so pretty much all thescience journalists,
quote-unquote in the major mediaoutlets who reported this, all
just parroted that figure.
Oh, it's less than 1 in 1,000.
It's very small.
But the problem is they weredoing two things with that
figure.

(37:56):
One is that they were averagingit over time, and so are you
able to share the screen with umI will put the thing up in post
production so people are seeingit on screen right now, if you
look at over time, you can see.
Let's look at cross-sex hormones.
So that's the blue line and thegray line, and the blue line is

(38:18):
assigned female at birth andthe gray line is assigned male
at birth.
So the way that the studyframed it was oh, no one under
12 got cross-sex hormones.
Another way of saying that ispeople 12 and older got
cross-sex hormones.
So you can see how it presentedboth in the press release as
well as in this research letterthat it's being framed.
As we told you, it wasn't asbig of a deal, but I don't know,

(38:39):
are that many people reallyclaiming that people under the
age of 12 are getting cross-sexhormones?
I don't know.
Another way of saying it is likethis is something that
generally is done largely byteenagers when we're talking
about minors, and that over timethose rates increase, in
particular amongst natal girls.
So another way of saying it iswell, by age 18, what proportion

(39:01):
of kids you know had startedthese drugs when they were
minors and those figures werereported in the study.
So out of 100,000 natal girls,about 140 in this group started
causing hormones by age 17.
So that's 0.14%.
And then for natal boys it was82 out of 100,000.

(39:23):
So that's 0.082% and if you putthe two together that means
that by the time they're 17,about 1 in 1,000 kids with
private health insurance havestarted these medications.
But despite the fact that thosefigures were in the research
letter, when you just report anacross-the-board figure over
time, if you stretch that outover to down to age eight, it

(39:45):
reduces the figure essentially.
And then there are other thingsthat might've raised it, such
as we've discussed, or like theydidn't report.
When they use the diagnosiscode it's an endocrine disorder
not otherwise specified.
So that's often done Like.
Sometimes it's possibly done asa way of getting around various

(40:05):
regulations, such as in Texasthere is the Texas Attorney
General has sued a health careprovider for doing that since
they passed their ban recently,for example.
So another thing so they saythat advocates of these
restrictive laws argue that therates of gender affirming care
are too high.
We've certainly pointed to anexample where Matt Walsh has

(40:26):
done that and he's been veryinfluential.

Taf (40:29):
We were just talking about this.

Ben (40:30):
Yes, but if you look at, say, the Tennessee law that is
under consideration by theSupreme Court right now, it
explains why they want to havethe law in the opening passage
of it, and nowhere in there isit saying that lots of kids are
getting it.
They want to have the law andthe opening passage of it, and
nowhere in there is it sayingthat, like lots of kids are
getting it, it says the ratesare increasingly increasing
quickly, but mostly what itfocuses on their concerns about
harm, and so I find it a bitdisingenuous for them to claim

(40:55):
that that's like the main issuethat people are talking about
when they want these laws.
So there's a lot of ways thatthis was just couched in a way
to sort of hit a political pointand just so, anyway, I'll be
here.
We all think about this.

Taf (41:10):
I mean a one in one thousand still just seems like a
lot.
Yeah Right, like you know, Ithink that historically,
especially like when I startedtransition and again this is
what you're getting out in termsof the rates increasing is what
you're getting out in terms ofthe rates increasing I just know
that, looking at social circlesand the proportion of young
trans women that I saw out there, it was like almost no one when

(41:31):
I started to transition and nowI see that like pretty commonly
one to one thousand.
I mean, at like a big highschool, you're gonna have like a
few trans women, um, transgirls, and that seems like a lot
to me.
So I think, when I think aboutit in that historical
perspective, I'm seeing therates increase and that's why I
think people are concerned.

Ben (41:52):
One other thing I wanted to mention is that.
So this is covering 2018 to2022, a five-year period, and,
as we've seen from the Komododata that came out, that Reuters
did in 2022 and Do no Harmissued a state-by-state analysis
that came out, that Reuters didin 2022 and do no harm issued a
state by state analysis thatcame out a couple in October,
and all of those show thatduring that period the rates, as
to your point, were increasingdramatically.
So if you only report theaverage rate over time, that's

(42:16):
going to be lower than if youreported 2022, it looks like in
2023, the rates declined, youknow, pretty consistently, at
least a bit.
The rate looks sort of like anS on the side of a violin.
It went down a little bitduring the pandemic and then
zoomed up and then there was abit of a retreat in 2023.
There could be many reasons forthat.

(42:37):
I think it's possible that thedoctors are becoming more
reticent in the face ofincreasing lawsuits.
They want to cover their faces.
Possibly parents are reading alot of information that makes
them concerned and more reticentto consent to having their kids
receive these medications.
Who knows, but it's troublesometo me when a research like this
is published with a specificpolitical goal in mind and then

(43:00):
you can see the ways thatthey've done two things you know
doing average over.
You know a group of age andaverage over time, and those
will both do this to the numbers.
I'm just guessing.
Let's say it might be as highas one in 500 kids with private.
I think that would be an upperlimit Currently yeah 17 year

(43:22):
olds, 17 year olds, so likethat's maybe the highest, I
would guess in 2022, butpossibly somewhere between 0.1
and 0.5, and especially I'mtalking about natal girls in
particular, because those arethe higher rate boys.
Lower natal boys, um, so, inany case, the question is like
is that or a lot or a little?
Does this assuage people's fearor concern, or confirm them?

(43:43):
And, and you know, it reallydepends on who you ask.

Taf (43:47):
Yeah well, can I ask you a question regarding the change,
the differences in rates betweennatal boys and natal girls?
Does that indicate, in yourmind, to a different cause of
this gender dysphoria betweenthe two sexes?

Ben (44:02):
that's something that also gets elided, if that's the right
word, between in analyses likethese and discussions is the
source of people's people'sgender dysphoria and their
transgender identification, andthere's the true.
Transsexual is the term that isused a lot I hate it I hate it
whatever.
The traditional natal boy, natalmale who since a very young age

(44:26):
identified as the opposite sexor transgender, et cetera,
couldn't stand being put inwhatever clothes, et cetera.
And then we have this newphenomenon that's happened over
the last 10 years, where we havea lot of natal girls who, after
the onset of puberty, start tohave gender discordance and
express, you know, genderdysphoria, etc.
So that's something that getsjust sort of lost in the wash in

(44:49):
these conversations, or like,basically, people just say, oh
well, there always beentransgender people like, yeah,
but different kinds and fromdifferent sources, so why is it
bad to talk about this?

Brianna (45:00):
yeah, kate, I wanted to ask you that, like tell me this
is not just my memory, but backin the day when we transitioned
, did you know any trans guys?
Because I didn't.
I it just seems like somethinglike I look at this data, If you
look at the chart, you've gottwo times as many you know trans
guys as trans girls.

(45:20):
I mean, this is like did youknow anyone that was a trans guy
back in the day?

Kate (45:25):
girls I mean this is like did you know anyone that was a
trans guy back in the day?
No, I mean the extent of transguys was seeing Buck Angel on
the cover of the magazine.

Brianna (45:31):
Yes, yeah, it just wasn't a thing.
So this is I know they wouldprobably tell you it's.
I mean, I guess the progressiveline on this is you know, you
destigmatize it, so people comeforward, but I, I just don't
find that a satisfactory answerpersonally well, almost all the
growth has been in youngerpeople and natal girls in

(45:53):
transit evocation, the transpopulation in the last 10 years
or so.

Ben (45:57):
Over 35, you don't see any growth.
So why is that why?
You know, why is the oldergroup not responding to these
signals of reduced stigma in thesame way that, supposedly, them
people?
Maybe they just sort of trenchin their lives and it's too late
for them.
I don't know, but it reallythat's not how transition works.

Brianna (46:13):
There are plenty of 40 year olds had three kids
military.
The transition back at kate.
How many of these did you know?
The guys are in the army andthey were cross-dressers and
they suddenly came out and blewup.

Kate (46:26):
No, no I don't think I knew anyone.

Ben (46:28):
Yeah, but you heard the new art yeah, right it was a, thing
, yeah it's definitely anarchetype yeah I can say that,
having written about hiv forever, is that until very recently,
when it came to breaking downsubpopulations in various
studies about hiv, trans menwere almost never included,
because you could only get liketwo and so there was never
enough for some sort ofstatistically significant result

(46:50):
.
So that's only a recentphenomenon.
Where these studies havestarted to, you know, cobble
together the trans malepopulation.
Granted, they have differentsort of risk factors, they might
not be as high risk for HIVanyway, but that you know they
were basically discountedbecause they were so rare that
it almost wasn't worth theresources and studying that
population in this context yeah,well, we're gonna have a few
more minutes because, uh, ournext guest is running a little

(47:12):
bit late, brad palumbo.

Brianna (47:14):
So I guess, um, like, what is the?
What is the?
I mean I wanted to ask becausethis is the data we got after
the ban what ended up happeningto these kids where you took
away their gender affirminghealth care.
I mean, what ended up happeningto them?
What did they get to continueit?
Because I think that wouldliterally destroy your life if
you got used to being onestrogen and then you were taken

(47:37):
off of that I mean it'sdifferent from state to state.

Ben (47:39):
Some of them have been held up in injunctions, some of them
have been implemented.
So everyone's waiting for thespring court to rule in the
spring and then there'll be aprocess, whatever they rule,
where that'll filter down to theother courts, so it won't be an
overnight thing where all of asudden it'll be legal or illegal
in various states.
But I mean, that is indeed abig question.
You know, do they move away?
But you know there's I gotpilloried for using this term on

(48:03):
Twitter last year, but it'swhat's called a natural
experiment and it soundsunethical but actually it's
quite the opposite.
A natural experiment is whenyou study the effects of
something that just happenednaturally.
Let's say, there's a naturaldisaster in one city but not
another, and they're verysimilar, and then you can study
the impacts of that naturaldisaster.

Taf (48:22):
Like minimum wage laws.

Ben (48:24):
Right Another example Like for example, craigslist rolled
out in phases across the countryand so people studied how that
impacted local SED rates andthey rose because it impacted
the digital performance of that.
So I said on Twitter unwiselybecause I didn't anticipate how
people would misinterpret me,but this was an opportunity for

(48:48):
people to engage in a naturalexperiment to study how
different laws impact youngpeople.
You'd have to be able tomonitor them and have various
data sets, that sort of thing.
People thought that I meantthat people were just sort of
like this horrific Machiavellianintent studying kids and
watching them suffer.
That's not the point, you know,because you were just studying
the impacts of something beyondyour control.

(49:10):
So, in any case, wouldn't it benice if researchers were
attempting to study the impactsof these laws?

Taf (49:17):
At the very least, we might get some data out of it which
will point us towards you know,how effective is this HRT
intervention for adolescentsRight?

Ben (49:25):
And indeed, what is it like to have it taken away?
And I think I discussed thislast time on the show that Laura
Edwards-Lieper, who is apsychologist, and she was a part
of the team that imported theDutch model to Boston Children's
in 2007.
And she's become a very vocaladvocate from within this larger
clinical community, advocatingfor more caution in the way that
you know the assessments aredone and that sort of thing.

(49:46):
And you know I asked her youknow what happens to these kids
when they're in adolescence andthey're told I'm sorry, you're
not going to be able to getthese medications?
And from her work with manyfamilies of kids, either their
parents won't consent or there'sa law in the way, or whatever
it might be she says the kidslargely accept it and are able
to deal with it.
And that really speaks to alarger bias in our culture which

(50:06):
says that everyone is going tofall apart in some sense of
trauma and there's no such thingas resiliency or patience.
And that's not a discount thatthese things are very serious,
but it is also nice to stressthat people can cope with things
.

Brianna (50:21):
Yeah, but you're coping and you've got to like.
Your body is perhapspermanently destroyed, or do you
change the way that makes yourlife.

Ben (50:29):
What's different if you started?
I wasn't asking about peoplewould start it and then stop.
It was.
It was more asking about kidswho had, who wanted to start and
had not yet, and then when ourright but still like natural
puberty is your voice is goingto lower, you're going to get a
beard, you're going to be tall,you're like it's.

Brianna (50:44):
You know, um, I mean, it will make their life much
harder I mean the example I loveto give is when I open my mouth
, you know it's tilted one waybecause of nerve damage from all
the jaw surgery that I've had.
You know.
Um, I ended up in the icu whenthey did my tracheal shave
because I sat there in thehospital nearly choking to death

(51:04):
.
You know there was three days.
That was not fun.
So I hear what you're saying.
It's always I mean it's I feellike we're close enough friends.
I can say this Like I, Itotally I respect where you're
coming from because I thinkyou're a straight journalist on
it.
It's sometimes hard to hearlike cis researchers talk about
this Like it's so benign becauseyou don't know the personal

(51:28):
cost of it.
And that's not to say like weshouldn't do caution, like I
fully agree with that.
I'm just saying it's so mucheasier to be like, oh, they'll
be fine, right, and I know whatit's like see your body changing
.

Ben (51:41):
I think that when she was saying that I think it's largely
she's dealing with a patientpopulation who are natal girls,
who come in when they're 14 100,they already have breasts, so
like the timing isn't ascritical at that point because
you know they already would haveto have top surgery anyway.
It just means that they woulddelay it.
So but so definitely to yourpoint.
I think that to what I wassaying earlier is like we need

(52:02):
to differentiate who we'retalking about here, what age
they are, you know what perhapsthe source of their anxiety is,
etc.
When we're discussing all thesedifferent ways that these laws
impact people.

Brianna (52:14):
Definitely.
I wanted to ask you.
Someone was saying to meyesterday I wanted to ask if
this was true, true that youknow my opinion that, um, as I
understand, there's no real rushfor, you know, female to male
trans people to transition soearly because testosterone will,
I thought, work veryeffectively.
Someone was bringing up to methat, uh, height is largely set

(52:38):
from you know, like beforeyou've hit 17, and that you've
only got a set amount of timeafter that where it's going to
do anything.
So if you, if these, like ftms,get testosterone early, does
that affect their heighttrajectory and can they end up
like because it would be veryhard to pass if you're like five
foot three?

Ben (52:57):
yeah, I, I did see one study that I know of that came
out very recently that suggestedthat.
I think it was.
You know, when you do havepubertal suppression, that's
early on, when the growth platesaren't fused or whatever that
it can impact height.
So but I don't know as muchabout, like, if it happens later
.

Taf (53:14):
If you're a party, I will say my understanding is that
testosterone will prevent heightgrowth.
So it actually leads to thefusing of those bone plates and
if you have high testosterone,it'll prevent you from growing
high uh, growing tall.
So if you have a lack of sexhormones in your body, if you
just take, like, pubertyblockers, that actually causes

(53:37):
kids to grow taller.
So if you give children yeah,if you give children lupron and
they have neither estrogen ortestosterone, which both inhibit
height growth, they'll get tall.
That's probably what happenedto me.
I'm like much taller than eitherof my parents.
I was on Lupron for a while andlike a very low estrogen dose.
But yeah, I would say that likeit's not necessarily
testosterone, like that will dothat, that.

(54:00):
But also interesting fun fact,lots of I know that in um
iranian culture they willsometimes give their children
puberty blockers early on tocause them to grow taller.
So, like rich iranian families,there's like an occasional
practice which is like a littlebit of puberty blockers so they
get a little bit taller.
Fascinating as a treat I'venever heard that.

Sky (54:24):
That's so crazy fascinating , wow, yeah, I'll just say, you
know, when it comes to the studyyou published, ben and, and
looking at that graph it, itreally wouldn't concern me so
much if it was in the mtfpopulation.
But I just don't understand,like with the ftm and the rise
on the testosterone, what isdriving or like what is

(54:45):
necessitating the treatment fortestosterone in terms of like
the risk reward balance, of likewith the trade-offs, because
testosterone is such like aone-way street.
It's like once you do it andyou go through the changes, like
we were saying, with the deepervoices and such there's it's
you can't come back from thatand I've seen so many youtube
videos of detransitioned natalgirls that are like crying

(55:09):
because of their voices yeah, Igot the phone.

Ben (55:12):
It's not like me as I.

Sky (55:14):
Just really it makes me worry like is this going to
cause greater backlash?
Because there's so many,there's the proportion is so
much more on the females than itis on the males, right, and
it's like ugh, just yeah, it'sconcerning.

Ben (55:30):
I did find that the one study there were two that have
to do with height, so this onecame out in April of last year
Growth and adult heightattainment in Danish transgender
adolescents treated withpuberty blockers and sex
hormones.
Treated with puberty blockersand sex hormones.
So just skipping to theconclusion.
It says the minor reduction inadult height of trans girls
after hormone treatment may bebeneficial to some, whereas

(55:51):
trans boys did not experienceheight gain.
So there you have it, and thenthere was another one.
bring that in.
This is early pubertysuppression and gender affirming
hormones do not alter finalheight and transit adolescence,
so that actually found adifferent result.
So maybe people aren't sure.
Early puberty suppression andgender-affirming hormones do not
impact final height.
Supporting the safety of thetreatment, however, trans

(56:13):
adolescents receive.
What does FH stand for?
Sorry, final height in linewith sex registered at birth
rather than experienced gender,so maybe not so much.
So interesting yeah.

Brianna (56:27):
Well, thank you for coming on today.
We really appreciate it, Do youknow?
Do you know Brad by the?

Ben (56:32):
way.
Oh yeah, hi Brad, I don't knowif you hear me.
Hey, how's it going?
There's a deep voice.

Brianna (56:39):
We got it.
We got it we have a voice fortelevision.
Thank you, it's a.

Ben (56:45):
You have a voice for television.

Sky (56:46):
Thank you All right.

Brianna (56:46):
Bye Ben.

Sky (56:48):
All right, well, that was Ben, he was great, and now we
have Brad hey.

Brad (56:53):
Brad, Welcome hey everybody, thanks, yeah, thank
you for having me.

Sky (56:57):
I'm going to do a little intro here.
So rounding our guest lineuptoday is Brad Palumbo, a social
media dynamo known for hisindependent commentary and sharp
insights.
Again, Brad, welcome toDollcast.

Brad (57:10):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me and forthat kind introduction.

Sky (57:16):
Well, I've been a fan of watching your YouTube series on
your podcast, brad Against theWorld, or, like you know, the
one where you give all thosesharp insights and commentary.
So I just had a question foryou what got you into the social
media space?
Or, like, what made you want tostart creating content on like

(57:36):
the radical takes that are justproliferating online these days?

Brad (57:40):
Yeah, absolutely so.
It's interesting I started outin more traditional journalism.
So shortly after I graduatedcollege I went to work at a
center right magazine called theWashington Examiner in DC and
they were very interested incovering kind of traditional
political stuff.
I remember my boss going weshould be writing about what's
on cable news and I said well,what about what's on the front

(58:03):
page of Reddit?
And he looked at me and I'llnever forget this moment and
said what's Reddit?
And that's when I realized thattraditional media was not super
long for this world and that ifI wanted to have a long-term
career I couldn't just pursue TVradio what I might've pursued

(58:23):
if I was, you know, entering mycareer in the 1990s or early
2000s and I'd have to dosomething kind of different.
So shortly after that, Istarted to dabble in YouTube and
Instagram and TikTok contentcreation, doing the same kind of
thing, kind of commentary andopinion journalism, so based in
facts, and some reporting butgiving my perspective on things,

(58:44):
but just in a multimedia forminstead of the traditional
writing columns and all that.
And then I really mybackgrounds in economics and I
covered.
I was a policy correspondentfor several years.
I didn't talk a lot about LGBTissues, but a year or two ago,
as just as I had followed thediscourse on it and I saw things

(59:05):
going off track.
Really, I guess it's a lot morethan a year or two time flies,
but this would have been maybearound 2020 and I predicted that
if things kept going the waythey were going, that we were
going to have a backlash andthat the LGBT community would
lose support.
Support for gay marriage,support for trans rights would
all significantly decline.

(59:26):
Because I think that themovement was going too far,
pushing into radical andunreasonable territory, and that
Americans were at some pointgoing to rebel against all of it
, and I predicted that was metwith very vicious backlash by
kind of the LGBT Inc.
If you search my name on PinkNews or any of those websites,

(59:48):
you'll find very unflatteringimages and articles about me.
But unfortunately, I wish I'dbeen proved wrong.
I do feel I was proved right,but that's what I try to do with
my commentary and my content isprovide an alternative to
people.
To show that, one, there aremany gay people who are not far
left in their views and arepeople that you might as, even

(01:00:10):
as a Christian mega conservative, be perfectly content to
coexist with and live side byside.
To kind of push back on theterrible representation that I
think the everyday LGBT persongets from Alphabet Inc, that I
think the everyday LGBT persongets from Alphabet Inc.
And then, two, to kind of pushback on the excesses, to make it
clear that we're not all likethis, basically, so people

(01:00:32):
hopefully don't fall into theblack and white thinking,
mistake of thinking.
Oh, if I don't want biologicalmales in women's prisons who,
even if they've done essayoffenses.
I must reject gay marriage orwant to ban trans people from
the military.
Those things don't have to gotogether, actually, and that's
kind of what I try to explain.

Brianna (01:00:51):
So let me ask you this from the really beginning.
I want to ask you reallydirectly this isn't meant to be
hostile, it's just so people canget on the record.
So, how do you feel about transpeople?
Just give it to me from thestart, like when you, when
you're around a trans girl, likewhen we hang out, right, uh, do
you feel like you're talking tosomeone that shares an
experience with you?
Do you think our civil rightsare important?

(01:01:13):
Uh, can you just give it to mefrom the beginning, like, how do
you feel about trans people?

Brad (01:01:17):
well, it depends who you ask.
If you ask radical, I willexplain.

Brianna (01:01:23):
I just I think it's interesting.

Brad (01:01:25):
Um, the far right calls me a woke, libtard, um who's
pro-trans, and then the far leftcalls me a radical bigot
transphobe.
The truth is I'm a libertarianand my principles apply to
everyone, including transindividuals.
So I have, on the record, overthe years, repeatedly defended
the rights of trans adults.
I disagreed with Trump heavilyrestricting transgender people's

(01:01:50):
ability to serve in themilitary.
I said very simply you know, ifthey can meet all the
requirements anyone else has tomeet and their doctor says
they're fit to serve, so be itright, thank them for their
service and be on with your day.
But I have spoken out againstthings that I think are unfair
or against basic common sense,like having no solid sex

(01:02:13):
segregation in women's sports.
I don't believe in kind of whatI would call the alphabet
people nonsense, the TQ plus,not just the traditional.
I'm never going to believe inneo pronouns Sorry, they're not
real, they're not valid, butI've always been willing to use
adult people's pronouns.

(01:02:36):
I actually got in trouble andthis is funny.
There was a transgender personwho I worked with.
I went to a very liberalcollege.
I got formally written up bythe student newspaper because
this person identified whichactually isn't transgender, but
that's a whole other category.
As they them and I would.
Typically I never.
I don't believe in in usingthey them for non-binary people.
But I also try to always bepolite.

(01:02:57):
So in that instance I will tryto avoid using someone's
pronouns and I'll just say theirname.
So I'll say Nate says this,nate says that, and I referred
to Nate as the boy who criedwolf.
But Nate was a non-binaryidentifying male at birth.
Nate reported me and I gotwritten up and threatened that

(01:03:18):
if it happened again I'd beterminated for misgendering.
And I'm, I'm like bro.
That's an expression yeah, it'sjust an expression so the short
version is I've always andalways will support the rights
of adult people to do whateverthey want with their bodies.
I've spoken out againstrepublican state laws that, for
example, set the age at 21 or 25to access medical transition

(01:03:43):
I'm like no, these people are.
Or 25 to access medicaltransition.
I'm like no, these people areadults with human rights and
freedom, and if they're oldenough to do anything else.
But I've also I have supportedrestricting the age to
irreversible treatments to theage of consent, so 16, 17, or 18
, depending on the state.
I've supported restrictingparticipation in women's sports,

(01:04:04):
though an interesting nuancethat I have that I think people
often miss is I've always fullysupported trans men being able
to participate in men's sports,because they're only putting
themselves at a disadvantage.
Seriously, if a trans man wantsto play with me and the boys

(01:04:30):
playing soccer, a trans man,power to you, because you're not
putting anyone at adisadvantage.
But there are some elements ofbiology that don't always aren't
completely ameliorated byhormone replacement therapy.
Obviously, it takes away a lotof the advantage, but not all of
it, and so that's somethingI've spoken out about.
I've spoken out about theprisons issue but I've also.
I've also disagreed withbathroom bills.
I don't think bathrooms are anissue and I think policing who

(01:04:53):
goes in what bathroom is far,far more trouble than it's worth
into a, a basically imaginaryproblem.

Brianna (01:05:00):
I think if the four of us started using male bathrooms,
that would be pretty disruptive.
That's kind of the point I'vealways made is in.

Brad (01:05:07):
Equally disruptive would be forcing Buck Angel to use the
women's room.
This is my critique of NancyMace.
I'm like one, the whole thingis grandstanding and virtue
signaling.
But two the approach that she'sadvocating, with no nuance
whatsoever, forces by a lot ornot biological males but trans
men to use the women's room.
That's going to make women farmore uncomfortable than a

(01:05:29):
passing trans woman using thewomen's room.

Brianna (01:05:33):
I hope that sums it up.
I'm kind of the worst of bothworlds or the best of both
worlds, depending who you ask Iwant to drill down on this with
you because what and I'd love toknow what my co-hosts think of
this too but I knew I wanted tobe a girl from very young age.
But I remember when pubertystarted kicking in and I can
read like gay, like you know, um, remember, you know, like like

(01:05:55):
stories of gay men when theyunderstood that it's very, very
much the same thing, right, likeattraction to men trying to
hide it, like disassociating inthe locker room, all that kind
of stuff, like just being reallyterrified by that.
So I I really want to hammerdown on this.
Like what I get is like kateand I are a little older and I

(01:06:16):
think we remember a version ofthe lgbt community that was a
little bit more together or felta common sense of purpose.
But I've always felt a kinshipwith gay men because I think we
are like similar to y'all, butlike an additional layer of
complexity.
But I feel like that thatconnection has been broken.
So how do you feel about transwomen?

(01:06:37):
Do you think we are?
Do you consider us part of the,the LGBT movement?
Do you consider us like?
Do you think we're gay men?
Ultimately, kind of?
How do you feel philosophicallyabout us?

Brad (01:06:50):
well, I think trans women, um and this is, I guess, some
people consider this offensivesure, at the most base level,
biologically male, um, and Ithink trans men are, at the most
basic level, biologicallyfemale.
I don't believe people canliterally transform their sex
completely, but I've alwaysbelieved that people should be

(01:07:12):
free to express themselves andlive as the other gender for all
intents and social purposes.
To the core of your question, Idon't really believe that the
LGBT community exists.
I think more accurate languageat this point would be the LGBT
category.
It's a bunch of things thathave been lumped in together
somewhat incoherently or evencontradictorily at times, but

(01:07:33):
also it's just not a communityin the sense, and maybe I'm too
young to remember a betterspirit of togetherness.
I've just found it soincredibly hostile and toxic.
I mean to me as a right-leaninggay man.
I've received a lot ofvitriolic hate over the years
from the far right and theGroypers and the neo-Nazis, but
I've also received intensevitriol and hate from woke gay

(01:07:57):
men in particular.
I was actually kicked off orbasically excommunicated from a
gay men's soccer club when Ilived in DC, which has a very
politically active gay community.
I've always played soccer, I'ma lifelong soccer player and it
was interesting.
Their rationale was thatsomebody from Media Matters was
somehow involved in the club andhe claimed that my presence on

(01:08:21):
the team or in the club madehypothetical, that my presence
on the team or in the club madehypothetical there weren't any,
to be clear, hypothetical transmembers unsafe because of my
opinions that minors shouldn'tbe allowed to transition.
And there's a couple thingsabout that.
One, there were no trans peopleparticipating.
I wasn't saying my politicalopinions at soccer practice.
I wasn't bringing this up andcausing debates or issues.

(01:08:44):
And three, there's a veryinfantilizing view of a trans
person that they are somehow sosoft and fragile that they can't
coexist with a person who mighthave a different perspective
than them without what meltinginto a puddle.
That I actually find incrediblypaternalizing.
It's my experience with transpeople legitimate trans people,
not neo pronoun fake people isthat they're actually incredibly

(01:09:08):
resilient and have oftenendured a lot of hardship and
they don't need to be protectedby woke gay men fighting for
them to have a safe space.
And it's often, I think, virtuesignaling and activism where
they're seeking to paintthemselves as some sort of
savior.
But so I found the gaycommunity or the LGBT community
to be incredibly hostile todiversity of any more

(01:09:29):
interesting or meaningful kind.
And I guess the base of yourquestion.
I don't know if I feel thatsame kinship between the gay
experience and the transexperience, because it does feel
fundamentally distinct to me.
I've gone back and forth on thequestion of whether it should
be LGB or LGBT.
I think it's a moot question.
I think it is LGBT.

(01:09:50):
I think people who are tryingto go LGB without the T are
fighting for a cause that theship sailed so long ago.
These are linked together, but Ithink gender identity and
sexual orientation are differentthings.
I don't have any kind of commonoverlap with the sense of not
feeling right for your gender,but I do have common overlap

(01:10:11):
with the feeling something'swrong with you and trying to
change it and trying to resistit.
I mean I can remember beinglike 12 and stealing the
Victoria's Secret magazine outof the mail and like looking at
it and trying to make myselfinterested in it and just not it
not working.
And I I can remember being um17 and simultaneously fully

(01:10:37):
understanding and I won't gointo detail, but fully
understanding what I wasattracted to and that it was
having a girlfriend and notthinking of myself as gay.
So this, this level of ofdenial, of struggling to accept
something with yourself that Ithink a lot of trans people
experience and that's why theyultimately transition, that I
think is relatable and similar,but I do think sexual

(01:10:59):
orientation and gender identityare fundamentally distinct
concepts.

Brianna (01:11:04):
I think that's fair.
I mean for me, like my sexualorientation was almost
incidental part of what waswrong with me, right, like I
didn't.
I was like when I was trying tofigure my sexuality out I was
almost agnostic, like okay, if Iend up with girls, that's fine,
like if I end up with men,that's fine.
So I agree with you, it's adifferent journey.
I know Kate has seen yourYouTube channel and wanted to

(01:11:27):
ask you some questions.
So, kate, do you want to goahead?

Kate (01:11:31):
Absolutely, I'd love to push back on something.
Brad, I've watched you for awhile and I absolutely enjoy you
, by the way, so the termbiological it's just like this
is a super pedantic thing sotake it for what it's worth, and
I certainly wouldn't make a bigdeal to anyone, but you
probably, because so the way Ithink about biology is certainly

(01:11:55):
more nuanced than the way Ithink about chromosomes.
So, for example, when I think46 x y.
That's very clear to me.
But when we look at mammals andbiological sex per se, it still
is a Gaussian distributionaround male and a Gaussian
distribution around female andthere is overlap in the middle,
especially around intersexconditions.

(01:12:16):
I was born with disorders ofsexual development and required
numerous surgeries in the firstfew years of life to normalize.
To me it just seems likethere's weird biology there that
causes all kinds of variety anddevelopment that deviate from

(01:12:37):
conventional male andconventional female.
The other thing is man in thefullness of time.
I bet you anything that there'ssome biological causation for
gender identity.
We don't have that yet.
We're not there, but we'relearning constantly.
I would not be surprised ifit's there.
I'm not searching for the transgene, but I guess I expect it

(01:12:58):
to be there somewhere.

Taf (01:12:59):
So that's my pushback.

Kate (01:13:01):
Again, it's a pedantic argument and by no means would I
march down the street on it.

Brad (01:13:07):
Let's talk about both points.
The first point, I think, istotally valid.
Obviously, intersex people arereal and their conditions exist.
I think what I would say isthis that the intersex thing
often feels like a red herringto me, because it's often and
that's not to say it doesn'tapply to some people.
Of course it does, but it'soften brought up by people who

(01:13:29):
are not intersex, or in adiscussion of Leah Thomas, who's
not intersex, to kind of justcomplicate a truth that we all
know, which is that almost allhumans can be easily categorized
as either male or female, andthere is a very small percentage
where even the percent ofpeople that are intersex most

(01:13:50):
within that can actually usuallybe identified as male or female
, though there's justconflicting traits and other
issues.
It also depends how you talkabout sex.
I actually don't think aboutbiological sex in terms of
chromosomes anymore.
I used to I was discouragedfrom doing that A good friend of
mine, colin Wright, who looksat he's an evolutionary
biologist and a PhD.

(01:14:11):
He looks at biological sex inthe terms of the shape of your
gametes, and so there are onlytwo sexes from this lens,
because there's only egg andsperm.
There is no third option andeveryone's system is oriented
towards the production of one ofthe two, with, I think, like
0.003% or a tiny, tiny amount ofpeople where that's not the

(01:14:32):
case.
Now, that's kind of like to meto say well, sex isn't binary
because of those exceptions.
Well, I can flip a coin, andone out of 10,000 times it will
land perfectly on its head, butwe still think of a coin as
having two sides, and so I thinkit's fair to say that sometimes
the way I talk about biologicalsex is probably doesn't apply

(01:14:55):
to a tiny slice of thepopulation.
That's intersex, but it appliesto almost everything we are
talking about, and it's hard todiscuss things with every
possible carve-out and nuance,and I feel that intersex is
often brought up as a redherring by people who are it's
like oh well, why should LeahThomas not be allowed to swim

(01:15:17):
with the women?
Well, leah Thomas isbiologically male.
There are some unfairadvantages there.
She went through male puberty,whatever, and they're like well,
how do you know?
So not everyone is male orfemale, okay, but leah thomas
does, doesn't claim to beinterested, like.
It's often kind of adistraction, I feel, from from
the question, because almosteveryone can be sorted, but I do

(01:15:40):
try to speak with nuance onthese subjects Sometimes.
I'm sure it fails to be capturedin what I say, especially in
short-form formats.
But I also.
Intersex to me is like anexplicitly medical thing,
whereas gender identity is muchmore of an ideological concept,

(01:16:01):
right, or a nebulous kind ofsocietal concept and maybe
psychological.
Intersex is to me like hardcore.
That's just a biologicalcondition and experience, right.
It just feels like socategorically distinct to me.
And then I'm sorry for goingoff, but what was the second
point that you asked about, youknow?

Kate (01:16:21):
I got lost in your eyes, Brad.

Brianna (01:16:26):
Come on your eyebrows, your eyebrows.
They are iconic.

Taf (01:16:31):
Yes, we all do I think I mean gay men are just good at
those things.

Kate (01:16:37):
Yes, Like I said, I would not march anywhere with this
banner.
And honestly it doesn't have alot to do with policy.
Policy positions and gametespecifically seem a mile apart,
but policy positions and thebiological sex someone was
raised in aren't miles apart.
They do relate and it's fairfor 99% of people to speak with

(01:17:06):
assumptions that are accuratefor 99.99% of people, I mean.

Brad (01:17:11):
I encountered this also.
One of the things I also speakon is fat positivity movement,
which I really disagree with.
I was pretty overweight in myteenage years and obesity is
really, we had fat Brad at 13.

Brianna (01:17:24):
Yeah, you had some pictures overweight in my
teenage years and obesity isreally fat.

Brad (01:17:26):
Brad 13.

Brianna (01:17:27):
Yeah, you had some pictures of fat.
Oh gosh, there are some on theInternet.

Brad (01:17:32):
I played World of Warcraft and I sat in my pajamas in my
own sweat all day and ateCheetos Puberty helped.
But I think it's what I speakabout it.
I'll say something like ifyou're morbidly obese, that's a
result of your choices.
I acknowledge that there's atiny sub percentage where that's

(01:17:52):
not true, right, and I'll oftensay something like with rare
exceptions for medicalconditions or thyroid disorders,
but 99% of people in Americawho are morbidly obese it's
because of their sedentarylifestyle and it's because of
the choices they make aroundfood.
It is not because of some rarethyroid disorder.
And every time I talk about itI have to go pause.
What with the exception ofpeople with these three

(01:18:15):
extremely rare genetic andthyroid disorders.
It's like I try to throw that inthere sometimes but it is going
to get lost and I think forintents and purposes I mean, my
mom is probably the most loyalconsumer of my content, or one
of them she doesn't like when Ispeak in generalities and I try

(01:18:35):
to avoid doing so, but sometimesI'll say like Democrats believe
this, or X or Y, and she'll belike well, not all Democrats
believe that I'm a Democrat andI don't believe that.
And, for example, I'll say likewell, democrats Democrat and I
don't believe that.
And, for example, I'll say likewell, democrats elected
Democrats, want to replace thenotion of sex with
self-identification in federallaw.
I don't know if that's so true.

(01:18:56):
Well, the Equality Act would dothat.

Brianna (01:18:59):
Yeah, well, that's a longer discussion of how GLAAD
and the ACLU like this is awhole discussion I'd love to
have sometime is we'veessentially, as a party,
outsourced our gay legislationto GLAAD and HRC and all these
alphabet groups.

(01:19:19):
The Equality Act replaces theterm GLAAD, the outcome is the
same.
I'm saying elected Democrats, Ithink in my experience, because
I write checks to politiciansall the time and when I talked
to them, the first question Ialways ask is like well, what do
you think the top trans publicpolicy issue is?
And it's always stunning to mehow little they've thought about
it, brad like they don't knowanything.

(01:19:41):
They don't know the differencein non-binary people.
So I think it's just like theculture of the party rather than
the people actually elected.
I know Taff had some questionsfor you, so I'm going to let her
answer.

Brad (01:19:52):
Let me just say one quick thing about that.
What I'm going off with thatstatement is the text of the
Equality Act redefines sex underfederal law.
In adds a parentheses that saysor self-identified gender
identity.
And most democrats in congresshave voted yes multiple times to
pass the equality act, and soI'll say something like

(01:20:13):
democrats support some form ofself-id, and my mom will be like
well, not all democrats and I'mlike that's true, some did vote
against it, but most democraticpoliticians are on the record
for this, and so I feel likegeneralizations have some
context.

Brianna (01:20:26):
That's the only reason I mentioned that it's a very
salient criticism and I thinkeveryone on the show probably
would.
I think most of us thinkself-ID is probably not a good
idea though I don't want tospeak for my co-host so I think
that's a salient criticism.
Be careful what you want to say.

Taf (01:20:41):
Yeah, I mean I relate so much to your story.
I feel like I also saw thetrans community and the LGBT
community kind of go off therails with their messaging and
it's been really scary becausefor me, the core rights that are
essential to me as a transperson are bodily autonomy,
control of my own body andself-expression, and I think

(01:21:03):
those are core fundamentalrights that Americans can
broadly get around.
But and I'm writing a pieceabout this for Reason Magazine,
which is a libertarian magazineand one of the things that I
think has happened withlegislation and not so much
through like the Equality Actbut through civil rights
legislation and the SupremeCourt's rulings on things is the

(01:21:27):
government has really steppedin to try to regulate how people
interact with each other and Ijust don't think it's very good
at that.
And so, like you're talkingabout about your you know gay
soccer team, I think there's somany instances of that.
In my article I use this otherexample.
I'm talking about a steel millin Gary, indiana, and this steel

(01:21:48):
mill is using all of this likeDEI language about inclusivity
and transness and whatnot.
I doubt that there's any liketrans guys that work there, but
if there are trans guys thatwork there, I'm pretty sure that
they're going to be like somehard nosed son of a bitch who

(01:22:08):
can take a little bit of ribbingon the job site and he doesn't
need the government to come inand regulate what those
boundaries are for him.
And, in fact, like by having thegovernment say, like you know,
you can't engage with each otherin this way or that way there's
this culture where the transguy is sort of encouraged to go

(01:22:31):
running to the authorities ifanything happens and people are
walking on eggshells around him,which is probably, if anything,
not helping his ability tointegrate into that job culture.
So I think I've been reallyfrustrated by just the fact that
, like.
So I think I've been reallyfrustrated by just the fact that
, like you know, I think thatdifferent people they disagree

(01:22:52):
on these big questions about,like, are trans women, women, do
trans women belong in thewomen's restroom, et cetera.
I think that those things needto be negotiated between
individuals and the peoplearound them, the businesses that

(01:23:12):
they are employed by, and it'sreally tragic that we've sort of
forced one standard upon all ofsociety when trans people
themselves don't have a singleset standard for what is or is
not acceptable language.
So I don't know, I just thatwhole piece very much resonates
with me.

Brad (01:23:26):
I agree completely, and it's funny because I've always
been willing to use transpeople's pronouns.
But I think the only thing thatcould get me to want to, not to
, would be the government tryingto force me to, and I don't.
This isn't so much an issue inthe US because we have the First
Amendment protecting our speechBless up for that.
But in countries like the UK orCanada they've had some sort of

(01:23:49):
pushes at governmental levelsor university levels to compel
pronoun usage.
I don't believe in that and Idon't think I would, but like a
piece of me would be tempted tostart misgendering people if
they started to tell me Icouldn't.
Just because I'm such abeliever in First Amendment
freedoms and freedom ofconscience and freedom of speech

(01:24:10):
, uh, even in cases.
I mean, one of the things I'vetalked about is I uh agreed with
the decision to protect theability of the uh Christian
baker, who refused to make awedding cake yeah, because I
always flipped on it and said,if I ran a bakery and somebody
wanted to come in and have meprint on the cake the Leviticus

(01:24:31):
message about gay people, Iwould want to say no, but their
religion is a protected classunder discrimination law.
So I've always believed firmlythat you have to have the rights
.
You have to offer and extendand protect and defend the
rights of people that youdisagree with or, on the
opposite side, that you want foryourself.
So I've always used to be intothings like that.
But I do agree with you that Ithink that steel mill steel mill

(01:24:53):
example is such a good one that, if I remember actually this is
um I, I went to high school ina rural massachusetts town and
one which one, bellinghamMassachusetts.
Oh, okay, there was a girl in mygrade named Jen and one summer

(01:25:15):
I think it was freshman tosophomore year, could have been
sophomore to junior Jen cameback as Jay and no one cared.
He started going into the men'sbathroom, the men's locker room
, in gym class and I justremember being totally.
I wasn't political, I wasn'tthinking about this.
I played basketball, I playedsoccer.

(01:25:36):
I'm 16 years old.
I remember just not caring atall.
Now, if they had come in and wehad had, as part of health class
, a pronoun lesson Everythingcan be a pronoun, fairy pronouns
If we had them showing us thegender unicorn, I can imagine my
friends and I making fun of it,becoming intrinsically hostile

(01:25:58):
to it, thinking it's annoyingand dumb.
But when it was just a personwho we knew, who we liked, had
no issue with, who was askingessentially nothing of us other
than to let him live his bestlife, we had no issue with it.
And this was a rural.
I mean, a couple of kids wouldfly around and pick up trucks
with the Confederate flag.

(01:26:18):
It was that rural, even thoughthat makes absolutely no sense.

Taf (01:26:21):
I grew up in a very similar circumstance.
In Colorado, people do the samething.

Brad (01:26:26):
Yeah.
So I think there's a point towhich, when government or very
powerful institutions try toshove things down people's
throats, it engenders moreresistance than it actually
achieves in support, and it'smuch better slowly happening at
a decentralized level.

Brianna (01:26:44):
That's one thing let me push on that just now.
Br thing, because, okay, so Ihear what you're saying and I
think all of this here wouldagree.
A big part of like integratingas a trans woman is not making a
big deal out of stuff, helpingpeople understand your stuff
like I.
I fully support a model where,if you're not being gendered
correctly, you first take thatas signal.

(01:27:06):
Like am I doing things?
Do I need to change my voice?
Do I need to change mypresentation?
I think all of us hererecognize that.
But let's say you come work formy super PAC.
Okay, I hire you today to workfor my super PAC and produce
media.
In every single team meeting onMonday I'm like oh, here's Brad,
that F slur.

(01:27:27):
You know I say that in front ofmy whole team over and over and
over again.
And if you like, screwsomething up.
I'm like, oh, you're screwingthat, just like the gay men
screw blah, blah, blah.
And I'm just making theseinappropriate jokes again and
again.
It's a hostile workplace.
Everyone there is superanti-gay or is just making you

(01:27:47):
feel uncomfortable.
Everyone there is superanti-gay or is just making you
feel uncomfortable.
I mean, do you think that thereis a?
I think in a private situationlike that.
Do you think, if you have aleader or someone on the team
that's just incapable oftreating a teammate with respect
, something teams need to dotheir best work?
I can tell you that as a teamleader.
Do you think that's a pointwhere it is reasonable to have

(01:28:10):
consequences for that Somethingover the line where someone just
will not behave like an adult?

Brad (01:28:15):
Yeah, well, what you just described is sexual harassment.
First of all, I think we canagree sexual harassment should
be illegal and is in a workplacesetting, or fireable, yeah yeah
, or fireable at the very least.
And I think what I would say iswhat I advocate for, because
I'm a critic of the excesses ofDEI, but what I advocate for is

(01:28:36):
non-discrimination.
So what you're describing wouldbe discrimination.
What I would say you shouldn'tdo is what I'm saying is this
LGBT awareness month at thecompany.
Brad's, our gay employee of themonth, right like.
I don't think companies shouldbe sending out free copies of

(01:28:58):
white privilege to their, orwhite fragility to their
employees, and I don't thinkthat's going to engender
positive race relations at thecompany.
But I do think they should firesomeone who discriminates
against black employees, whodoesn't hire black people, right
Like.
So what I'm saying is don'tforce it or go over the top with
it, but also ensure a fair andequal access to opportunity for

(01:29:22):
everyone.
I think that's the middle groundthere.
I mean, I'm sort of alibertarian at heart.
So, whether this is privatemechanisms or government
mechanisms, I've made my peacewith the state of
anti-discrimination law and it'sjust a part of our fabric is.
Maybe in my utopia, everyonecould just fire whoever they
want for any reason.
That's just not the world welive in.

(01:29:43):
So I think the standards shouldbe across the board, and I do
believe that sexual orientationshould be a protected class.
I struggle with how I wantgender identity to be a
protected class.
I just struggle with how todefine it in a law or
legislation in a way thatdoesn't become self ID, because

(01:30:04):
I don't support self-id but so asome form of gender recognition
, a process you have to gothrough that you're legitimately
trans.
So so that, because here's thething I need to be able to fire
somebody who comes out asnon-binary at my job because I
can't employ delulu people.
Wow, I shouldn't be hiringsomebody because they're trans,

(01:30:30):
because of a medical experiencethat they have and a different
way they want to live their life.
Those aren't the same thing,and so I would just want to find
a way to protect one withoutopening the whole rainbow.
Everything is in and now?
Um, because once you do that,it's very hard to even say how
could you legally separate theborn biologically male sex
offender from the women's prison?

(01:30:51):
If you have unambiguous self-IDprotections in law, I don't
know how you could do that, andthere has to be a way to protect
actual trans people indiscrimination law without
totally opening the floodgates,and that's what I would support.

Taf (01:31:06):
I think there is a way.
I think what you're identifying, you're seeing all of these
excesses right and you're sayingthat, like clearly, people are
going to chafe against theseexcesses when they're forced on
them.
But you also want to protectpeople in some way, and I'm not
like a crazy and cap radicallibertarian person, nor am I, so
I also yeah, I also supportsome set of protections, but

(01:31:30):
what I think is happening herein the law is a lot of those
excesses are actually downstreamfrom the current way in which
we legislate these.
So, like right now, whendiscrimination suits are brought
against companies, one of thethings that the judge will ask
is is this company followingbest practices to reduce

(01:31:52):
discrimination in the workplace?
And companies are kind offinding themselves in an arms
race where, as some companiesadopt more and more progressive
HR policies and techniques,affinity groups for gay or
Hispanic or Black employees, ascompanies adopt all of these

(01:32:13):
policies, that becomes a bestpractice, and so failure to
follow then becomes a legalliability.
And so what I see is all of thisambiguity in how the law is
structured, which causescompanies to radically overshoot
.
Part of that is, you know,legal fees.
There's fee shifting, whichmakes civil discrimination suits

(01:32:35):
extremely costly for thedefendants, and so, you know, I
even disagree a little bit withBrianna, and maybe even you a
little bit, like you know.
I think that if you have asuper PAC and people
occasionally joke and they say,like you know, f?
Slur or T?
Slur or whatever you know,they're using these words.

(01:32:57):
I think there are instances inwhich individuals can decide for
themselves that, like you knowwhat, I'm okay with that kind of
workplace environment as longas it's in good spirit, um, and
people are right if they reallydon't like it and they can quit
and I think it's okay if peoplesort of um, self-organize, find

(01:33:19):
groups that match their ownpreferences and they go and they
find their people.
But I think what's happeningright now is if you are that
steel worker um at the mill,gary, indiana, right Like you
don't have the option to go, andyou know, go to a job site and
be like you know what, I'm finewith things, you know you can
call me like a tranny orwhatever and I'll call you like

(01:33:42):
a Polack or whatever, and youknow that's how a lot of men
bond.
I think that they should beallowed to do that and I think
that, like part of making thathappen is just relaxing some of
these regulations just a little.
So like, if we remove the bestpractices standard or make the
law a little bit less ambiguous,maybe a little bit less

(01:34:03):
punitive, I think you would seecompanies relax some of those
excessive hyper-progressivepolicies.
I think they are already tosome extent.

Brad (01:34:13):
A lot of companies are rolling back DEI stuff.

Taf (01:34:16):
I think so and that's why you mentioned it's unlikely that
these civil rights laws change.
I actually think that it's verylikely that under the next
Trump administration, thesethings are going to get ruled on
by the Supreme Court.
We're going to have a relaxingof these standards which, you
know, frankly makes meoptimistic, because a lot of the

(01:34:38):
things that are currently beingpushed in the media landscape,
a lot of the power that's givento activists, which I think
ultimately hurts us as transpeople who we care about our
core rights of bodily autonomy.
You know, I don't want to forceeveryone on earth to like have
to use Z's or pronouns, that'sjust.
You know that doesn't help meto like force.

(01:35:01):
So I think that relaxing thosestandards a little bit might
make people a lot less hostile.
Those standards a little bitmight make people a lot less
hostile.
Um, hopefully.
And again, like, I think it'sreally horrible and tragic.
You see republicans now alsotrying to regulate these things.
Just, they're trying to changethe line in the sand, but
they're still believing that thegovernment needs to put that
line.

Brad (01:35:21):
Well, that's one of my big complaints with kind of what I
would call populist populist awing of the Republican Party now
is basically like we'll do biggovernment but we'll make it
patriotic and we'll force thingsand push down our vision, and
it's like they don't seem torealize that.

(01:35:43):
I've even seen someconservative writers be like we
need to expand the regulatorystate, but just put
conservatives in charge of it.
And I'm like at some pointyou're just want their own
government handouts.
Yeah, I mean even some of theeconomic policies.
They're like well, we just wantour turn as the welfare queens
give us this stuff for ourinterests, and obviously that's

(01:36:03):
just totally anathema to mybelief system.
But I think it's just a problemin politics.
People are deeply tribal.
Most people aren't committed toideology or principles in any
real sense, especially those whorun for office.
One of the theories thatinforms my school of thought is
public choice theory, right, andthe idea that the people who

(01:36:25):
seek the highest levels ofgovernment power are, by their
very nature, the people leastsuited to exercise that power.
Because who is drawn to being apolitician?
I think I would actually be apretty good senator, but I could
never get elected as a senator.

Brianna (01:36:40):
It's a horrible job, though, brad, you have no idea
how bad it is.
I have heard it is so bad.
I was 100 pounds heavierbecause I sat in this chair,
spending eight hours a daycalling random people asking for
money.
It hurts your marriage Like.
I remember this time I was outat this event and I'm looking at
this guy and I'm like what ishis name?

(01:37:02):
I know his name, what is hisname?
And it was my husband.
That's how tired I was.
But I don't want to.
I want to make sure we get someother opinions here, because,
kate, I know, like me, you'vebeen a project manager, so I
want to see do you agree withtaft's assessment, uh, about
kind of teams, like thatfree-flowing thing?

(01:37:23):
Do you think, like having a, doyou think having an HR process
has value, kind of?
How do you?
How do you feel about what shewas saying?

Kate (01:37:32):
so I transitioned before any protections at all.
Right, and when I talked to HR,I'd only worked there for a few
months.
I had very little value.

Ben (01:37:41):
I was a neophyte completely expendable, so I came to my HR
department like a partner, likean equal, with plan.

Kate (01:37:48):
I thought through things, I compromised on many things in
order to make it as easy aspossible for them to accommodate
me.
And it was just this very humandiscussion with my HR
department.
And I tell you what 20 yearslater, it has never come up at
work, you know, because we justgot on with it and I try to

(01:38:11):
demonstrate my value in otherways.
I do agree with cath and thatand brad and others that
policing language with policy isjust a bad idea.
It's still your word anathemabrad.
I love the word.
It is an anathema to who we areas Americans.
Language should be free, andlet society, let public

(01:38:34):
discourse decide on the waythese things follow.
It's not, it's never going to,we're never going to win by
forcing language.
Now, basic constitutionalrights, yes, please, but that's
a different thing altogether.

Taf (01:38:52):
Yeah, and the other thing is like there really is a
business value to having strongprotections for employees, right
, and there's going to be somesegment of trans people and gay
people and black people and allsorts of people who like that
when they go to work.
There's an affinity group forthat right and they like that,
they can go to HR and they likethese strong protections.

(01:39:14):
I think that's fantastic andcompanies are going to offer
those things to employeesbecause they know that it's one
way to recruit and retain talentfrom minority populations.
So I think like all the morepower to these companies who are
doing that and if they want todo that and they want to attract

(01:39:34):
the employees who really valuethose things.
And then if there's anothercompany that wants to relax the
standards a little bit, thepeople who prefer the relaxed
standards can go there.

Brad (01:39:44):
I was going to say I get what you're saying, but for me
personally, if I saw that acompany had gay affinity groups,
I'd be like I don't think freemarket right can sort that out.
What I would push back on isthe ron de santa swing of the
republican party would want toban them from doing that yes, I

(01:40:04):
can say you can't stop woke actright that got struck down by
courts for violating the firstamendment.
They're basically trying to dowoke legislative policing, but
anti-woke and no, just letindividuals sort by what they
believe in and what they want.
Is my default position on allof these issues?

(01:40:24):
Uh, really, because, becausethat's how I see it.

Taf (01:40:29):
Yeah, the government just sucks at regulating these things
.

Brianna (01:40:32):
All right.
So I got a question for you,brad.
This is a little spicy.
I hope I can ask you a spicyquestion, go for it.
So I went and got some gorgeousfoods downtown in Boston the
other day, and so I go todowntown Boston, I go down to
near the Prudential Center, sothe fancy, fancy part of Boston
and as I park my car down thereand I'm walking down the street,

(01:40:54):
I run into not one, not two,not three, not four, not five,
but no, it was five differentFTM trans people, like trans men
, right, and I'd never like Ijust don't run into them that
much in my life.
You know Boston has a largestudent population and like it

(01:41:14):
was really obvious they weretrans men, like they were
shorter but they had beards andyou know they were just
obviously trans men.
So I guess my question to youis, as I was talking to one of
them that was selling me someboots, like he had like sparkly
fingernail, polish, like exactlylike a gay man and some long,

(01:41:36):
beautiful hair.
So I guess for you, like I feellike we talk so much about the
other way, like would straightmen be comfortable with dating
trans women?
So I would ask you as a gay man.
Would you be comfortable datinga FTM trans man, because a lot
of them are interested in men?

Brad (01:42:00):
No, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't.
I mean no shade to anyone whodoes, sure, just no, because for
me the anatomy would not beGender is.
People talk a lot about whethergender is a spectrum.
Sexuality is actually aspectrum, right, very, or at

(01:42:21):
least there's people who are100% straight and 100% gay, but
a lot of people are somewhere inthe middle and I would put
myself at like the 95% gay.
Well, no, no, but it's actuallyan interesting concept because
some gay men would be like and Idon't want to TMI anyone here
physically incapable of havingsex with a woman, right?

(01:42:44):
So when you think about, likeback when they used to marry
women and still have childrenand everything, some gay men
literally couldn't do that.
I could do that, right, and Ithink a lot of gay men could do
that, but it just um, andobviously a gay man dating a
trans man is not the same thingas that.
It's different because you'regoing to be more attracted to
them.
Even sometimes I haveencountered, like a content

(01:43:06):
creator, an influencer, who's atrans man, who in the first
glance I'm like, oh, he's cute,um, and then I find out that
they're trans and I just don'tthink that, upon learning that
information, I would, I'd stillbe interested.
I've also been off the marketfor almost six years and so it's
never come up for me.
But I guess my gut says no.

(01:43:26):
But I understand that for somepeople who are just a little bit
more fluid or a little bit moreon the spectrum in terms of
what they're into, it's ano-brainer and they're fine with
it.
And yeah, to me the only thingthat I bristle at is sometimes
the fringe.
Trans types will be likegenital preferences are
transphobic.

Brianna (01:43:52):
Yeah, no, no, no.
Fringe trans types will be likegenital preferences are
transphobic.
Yeah, no, no, no.
I can tell you like for me,receptive sex is very important
for me and a partner and that'slike for me.
It's kind of weird because whatI love about some trans men is
there's a wonderful emotionalrichness to them and a
sensitivity that I find reallyattractive in men, right, you
know.
So I could see running intosomeone like that, but it's like

(01:44:13):
for me to enjoy myself in thebedroom, like I have a vagina
and there's stuff I like andthere's stuff I want.
So I think I 100% with you withthe needing certain parts to
enjoy sex.
I just I think it's sointeresting because, like, is
there, have you seen in gayculture like the same discussion

(01:44:35):
about ftms kind of encroachingover on gay men's faces, the
same way that we're seeinglesbians talk about trans women
in this?

Brad (01:44:44):
no, I I think there's a difference.
Difference that gay men whoaren't into trans men just keep
it moving.
You know what I mean.

Kate (01:44:55):
Yeah, they just move on.
Women write a blog post.

Brad (01:44:58):
Well, to give those women a little bit of their due.
Male violence towards femalesis a much, much, much, much more
prevalent and real thing thanfemale violence towards males.
So I never feel threatened orendangered by a trans man.
Now, most trans women wouldn'tmake a woman feel unsafe.

(01:45:23):
There are some who I canunderstand why a woman might
feel intimidated or unsafe orfeel like they're interacting
with a man.
I'm thinking of it's ma'amperson from gamestop.
Oh I, if I was speed dating andI was a lesbian woman and this
person sat across from me, I'dfeel like, okay, this is a male.

(01:45:44):
I could understand why theymight feel much more trepidation
about it than I do.
As long as a trans man isdisclosing that that's what they
are and they're on Grindr, I'djust be like not for me.
The same way, I might haveother preferences and just keep
it moving and it wouldn't affectme.
But I can see why it might be alittle different for lesbians

(01:46:09):
and there's just a whole notherdynamic between women and males
that they perceive that.
I'm not going to sit here andtotally invalidate Sure.

Brianna (01:46:21):
Sky, did you have any questions?
Kate, I want to give some otherpeople some chance to jump in
here.

Sky (01:46:27):
You know I had more of just a comment on something I
noticed that I really like aboutyour show is the emphasis on
free speech and I think itreally like ties into what we've
been talking about here with,like the genital preferences,
our transphobic thing.
It's just like this whole, Idon't know.
I I've long been uncomfortableby the I guess, cultural

(01:46:51):
elements of the lgbt movementgaining traction and like the
pronoun pins is like a greatexample of this, where it's like
you know what you put on yourpin is what you're supposed to
be called, or whatever.
Or announcing your pronouns,the preferred pronouns thing,
like at work, and it's funnybecause I had a co worker who

(01:47:11):
was actually planning totransition but hadn't
transitioned yet, make a commentabout they didn't want to
announce their pronouns becauseit would have a way of like
outing them, and so it's.
It's interesting to me how,like the cultural um elements I
guess of like the LGBT movement,um sort of like backfire on

(01:47:32):
themselves, and this is verymuch where, like again, what
you've done with your channeland your work really like
criticizes this effectively, Ithink Um, and so I didn't have
like a.
I didn't have a particularquestion here.
I think we've hit on like allthe questions that I was
basically thinking of, but I getwhat you're saying.

Brad (01:47:51):
I actually had, um, just the other day I'm doing an event
with a liberal leaning groupthat they're putting on and I
had a zoom call where everyoneexcept me said their pronouns
during the introduction goingaround and I was like I hate it,
I hate it it was.
That's such a stupid ritualbecause no one on this call is
trans.
We all know that no one on thiscall is trans.

(01:48:12):
We all already know eachother's pronouns that we want to
be called and I feel like ifthere was a trans person, they
would probably feel put on thespot by this and also they'd
probably hope that we don't needto be told to know what
pronouns they're to be called.
Like if I was, if I didn't know, uh, any one of you and I saw

(01:48:34):
you on a zoom call I would, Iwould kind of assume, to call
you she, her.
And if I and if you came andsaid my pronouns are she, her,
then you'd probably make methink about it more than I
otherwise would the whole thingfelt because we please.

Brianna (01:48:51):
That's the whole reason I had all the surgeries, so you
could assume my pronouns.

Brad (01:48:58):
The whole thing felt like such a a cultural ritual that
they the real goal of it hadnothing to do with trans people,
but simply about virtue,signaling to signify like we're
good progressives, we're part ofthe good tribe and I'm like,
I'm not going to participate.
And it might be awkward at theactual event.
If they all ask pronouns, I'mjust not going to participate,

(01:49:19):
like I'm not going to say givethem a hard time about it, but I
think it's weird to do that.
Yeah, I think we agree.

Kate (01:49:29):
Can I ask you a very serious question?
Sure, how has your mission tonormalize the term DeLulu been?

Brad (01:49:38):
I was the first person that I can see and I searched
the records for exactly zerominutes.
I was the first person to saythe word Delulu on cable
television, on Fox News.
So I think it's going good.
I certainly didn't invent it, Ijust think it's a funny term
and I like saying to people thattheir Delulu is showing.

Brianna (01:49:58):
I love it.
Is our Delulu showing today?

Brad (01:50:01):
No, I think you guys make a lot of sense from what we we
all have a little bit.

Brianna (01:50:06):
That's right.
Get to know us better and getthere for a little to lose.
I'm also.

Brad (01:50:12):
I'm just an open person in that I've always and this is
actually kind of sad even since2018, 2019, when I first started
my career, I wanted to havemore conversations or dialogues
or even just friendships orconnections with LGBT
influencers or commentators orjournalists who were left of
center, but they almost all ofthem I'd go to look them up and

(01:50:32):
I'd be blocked and I'm like I'venever interacted with this
person, I've never said anythingnegative to me.
They just must have seen myopinions and not wanted to hear
them.
And it's interesting because atthe time, some of the things I
was saying like opposing childtransitioning time things, some
of the things I was saying likeopposing child child
transitioning, medicaltransition I'm fine with social
transition um, they wereminority opinions and now

(01:50:55):
they've become much morecommonly held opinions.
And now it's like you tried toignore us and it didn't make the
thing that you disagreed withgo away.
In fact, it just continued togrow.
And that's one of the problemswith kind of trapping yourself
in an echo chamber, which iswhat a lot of these LGBT,
especially the nonprofits which,boy, I think, are so
financially suspect and corruptand so self-serving and have

(01:51:19):
actually, at this point, so manyof them have done so much more
harm than good.
I mean, glaad pisses me off.
Glaad just recently declaredhomosexual an offensive term.
The gay community you can't saygay community anymore.

Brianna (01:51:34):
You can say trans community.

Brad (01:51:38):
You have to refer to.
If you're talking about gay men, you have to say LGBTQ plus men
.
I saw this video on TikTok,which tells you what my
algorithm shows me right, it'slike 10 hottest LGBTQ men in the
world and I assumed it wasgoing to be a trans man on the
list, because why else wouldthey have said LGBTQ?
It was nine gay men and one biman and I'm like so you, these

(01:52:02):
are LGBTQ plus men.
There's no such thing as anLGBTQ plus man, because you
can't be all of those things anda man Like it doesn't make
sense and I just I don't thinkthey should be erasing or
problematizing gay people in thename of some sort of community
cohesion.

Brianna (01:52:22):
This drives me crazy, because you'll see this in
headlines all the time too,where it will be like LGBT
rights under attack, and I'll belike, oh, I guess they're going
after all of us.
And you read the story, it'slike, nope, just the trannies
today.

Brad (01:52:34):
So yeah, well, this is something that's hard um,
because it's okay for us to havedifferent cultures.

Brianna (01:52:40):
Like gay male culture is its own thing and I say that
as someone who spent plenty oftime in that right Like it's
just.
It is.
It's drag queens and goldengirls and just other stuff and
it's Grindr and it's just, it'sa thing.
Yeah, I didn't want to sayanything, but yeah, it's just

(01:53:03):
different and I think it's okayfor us to like.
Where I have a I don't want tosay a problem is I often feel
frustrated because I can tellyou, as someone that did the
work to help gay marriage getpassed I helped raise money, I
pressured, I was out there likelike doing like protests.

(01:53:23):
I called my congressman, I, asa democratic operative, I did a
lot of work on that it does feelto me in some ways like I think
we're different, but it's hardfor me not to feel resentful.
Sometimes, like in this reallydire moment where we need our
our gay brothers and sisters tostep up and help us.

(01:53:43):
It kind of feels like a lot ofyou're looking out for
yourselves and talking aboutlike transphobia, like it's this
edgy new thing that you've justdiscovered.
It's like, no, I wish thatthere was a little bit more
solidarity, but I alsounderstand how the fringe
activists have pushed thediscussion so hard, particularly

(01:54:04):
in the lesbians' faces, thatit's hard for there to be that
goodwill there Does that make?

Brad (01:54:10):
sense?
Steve, yeah, it does.
I think I've always would havefelt, and I, to be clear, like I
said, I have stuck my neck outand I will continue to, but
that's because I've always justnot minded saying a popular
thing.
But I think what's happenedwith a significant number of gay
men, but particularly likeonline gay men, is that they've
just totally rejected trans.

(01:54:31):
They've totally turned theirback.
You're right, there's no senseof defense or loyalty whatsoever
.
But I think that's because ofthe face of trans that they've
been presented with online,which is not necessarily
representative.
But when that Eli person thatyou're on Piers Morgan with,
who's literally illegallysending medicine, I think to my

(01:54:52):
it is 100% true when that's theface of the trans community, or
if the face of the transmovement is California putting
biologically male SA offendersin women's prisons, right, I can
understand why people are likeoh, nothing to do with me.
Now, the problem I have is likethat throw, that's kind of

(01:55:13):
throwing out the baby with thebathwater.
But if the trans movement hadalways been legitimate
transsexual people and not kindof the Q plus nonsense, I think
you have would have encounteredthat less, that less of that
kind of abandonment or or totalkind of honestly.
Some people are.

(01:55:33):
Some of the gay right-wingpeople I see on twitter are
actually come across as hatefulagainst trans people.
Now, yeah, I find that sad.
Um, I had to unfollow severalwho were mutuals because they're
just posting one.
There is an obsession withtrans people that I don't.
I understand when it'spoliticians or activists, but

(01:55:54):
there's these accounts that justpost like images of an ugly
trans person and it's just aperson they found somewhere on
Instagram that posted an imageof themselves and they'll just
be like the text of the lives oftiktok tweet will be like this
is a man yeah what's just?
what's the point of this beyondcruelty?

(01:56:14):
You know there was a veryinteresting divide on the right
because I am not a fan of dylanmulvaney.
However, matt walsh did amonologue about dylan mulvaney.
That was one of the nastiestand most dehumanizing little
bits of rhetoric I've seen in along time and I and many others

(01:56:34):
spoke out about it against it atthe time.
Like listen, you can evenbelieve that Dylan Mulvaney is a
man and not be so nasty andvitriolic.
I mean, I think he called Dylanalien and like basically some
human.
And it was a very interestingdivide between people on the
right who still had empathy andcompassion and were able to say

(01:56:56):
that's wrong to treat peoplethat way, even people you think
are bad or harmful and peoplewho are like no, this is war and
the TQ are after kids, anythinggoes.
I will never believe anythinggoes in any walk of life because
I have my own principles andI'd rather sometimes people on

(01:57:16):
the far right will accuse me ofbeing a loser because I want to
like play by the rules or Iwon't censor somebody because
they disagree with me andthey're like no, we have to
censor them back.
This is war.
Censor somebody because theydisagree with me and they're
like no, we have to censor themback.
This is war.
I'm like I actually wouldrather lose if that, by their
definition, then become thething I'm supposed to be
fighting against in order todefeat it, because then you

(01:57:37):
haven't defeated it at all,you've just replaced it with
another version of itself andcompromised yourself in the
process.

Sky (01:57:44):
You know, brad, I just want to say I saw that video that
Matt Walsh did on Dylan Mulvaneyand I you know it broke me a
little bit to see how mean hewas and just how awful and, like
you said, it was like basicallydescribing him as subhuman.
And then it hit me.
You know, if I'm feeling thisway, there's a dozen other

(01:58:06):
people that are watching thesame thing and feeling the exact
same way, and so, in the ironictwist, it's almost helping
bring back a little bit of thatsympathy for trans people
because of how, like crazy, theright wing side has sort of kind
of gone off the rails in theirown way of criticizing people
just on their looks and justpicking them apart and and just

(01:58:27):
having no standards, like I justcalled out, a bunch of
right-wing influencers who arerehabbing Andrew Tate.

Brianna (01:58:34):
I saw you doing that, thank you.

Brad (01:58:37):
Some of these people have no integrity or principles or
values beyond what will get themattention and it's kind of a a
spinning circle with, like theMatt Walsh's of the world.
They get noticed the most whenthey go into new extreme
territory.
Matt Walsh, calling a transwoman a man is something he does
every day, so that's not goingto get him coverage from media

(01:59:00):
matters that will then getdenounced by all the liberal
media in process, guarding himway more attention.
So he has to take it to a newextreme.
It's kind of this viciousfeedback loop.
He has to do something newattacking Dylan Mulvaney to make
it noticeable and to getattention for it, and it's been
a very successful business modelfor people like him in the
daily wire.
I try to do a similar style ofcontent in terms of infotainment

(01:59:24):
, but without that, without thattoxicity, and it's been a
slower build, but it issuccessful now on YouTube.

Brianna (01:59:31):
For me, the difference is you're someone with integrity
that I respect and they're not.
Last question this is someonewe ask everyone on Dollcast.
This is the big question, bradare traps gay?

Brad (01:59:48):
What is a trap in this context?

Taf (01:59:50):
like you, don't know that it's a straight man, gets with a
trans woman and doesn't knowit's a trans woman yeah, I mean
like trap, I think, is like aterm that shows up on like
message on the early internet torefer to a character that is

(02:00:10):
trans, but you wouldn't know itlooking at them.
It's a question sort of memedon.
Over decades.
Straight men have debated thisin every hallowed hall of 4chan
there is.
Is it gay to be attracted to atrap?
To a passing trans woman Canthey join your soccer team?

(02:00:31):
If a guy's like yeah, I sawtrans women.

Brad (02:00:34):
What I actually said about men who are interested in trans
women is it's not the samething as gay, right?
Because I wouldn't beinterested in a trans woman,
even if they're technicallybio-male at birth or whatever,
because they're so many in wayspresent female and their
secondary sex characteristicsand that's a huge part of sexual
attraction.

(02:00:55):
So it's not gay, but it's alsonot the straight thing in the
world said.
It's just a little bit inbetween, it's a little bit on
the bi spectrum maybe, andthat's okay, there's nothing
wrong with it.

Brianna (02:01:09):
I think of myself as a very, very spicy heterosexual.
So there it is I love it.

Brad (02:01:18):
Alright.
Well, thank you guys.
So much, Thank you for comingon.

Brianna (02:01:20):
Brad, this is such a good time.
I'm such a huge fan of yourwork and we gotta keep this
going.
I always love seeing you,thanks, thanks for showing on.
Alright, do we want to wrap upwith the final story that we
were talking about?

Taf (02:01:39):
The final story Orion.

Sky (02:01:47):
That's right, okay, yeah, so for our segment today, uh,
we're going to talk about pariah, the doll's detransition video.
Um, yeah, it was loaded and hada lot of religious overtones to
it, um, but also veryprovocative, especially with the
um, the connection with MiloYiannopoulos I hope I said his

(02:02:10):
name right.
Oh, my good buddy.
My good buddy Milo, oh you knowhim, we're best friends.

Brianna (02:02:14):
yes, wow.
So, we hate each other.

Sky (02:02:19):
Yeah, we've known each other for a long time.

Brianna (02:02:22):
We're very different people.
We got added to the chat.
It was just like instant hatingeach other after 10 years.
It was great.

Sky (02:02:31):
Oh, oh gosh well, okay, I will say I saw it before.
I saw the the shave the buzz,the buzz cut video that they
released also, did you all seethat one?
I did yeah, yeah, yeah, um,that kind of changed it a little
bit for me.
So in what sense?
Like I, I thought it was alittle bit more genuine at first

(02:02:52):
.
I mean, it comes across, I meanI want to say she, but I guess
he, um, really, just, you know,I felt emotional and I felt sad.
It was very genuine comingacross, um, but then when I saw
that buzz kidding video, I waslike, oh, I don't know, like now
this looks like it's part ofsome like I don't know just

(02:03:13):
agenda of some kind and I justcan't see all of it.
I felt like a stunt to you, Iguess.
Yes, I wanted to believe it wassincere, but now I'm like, oh
well, yeah, social media, it'sall a game, right, like is it I,
I mean, I do social media to beto do things I believe in, but
I also get the sense I'm not.

Brianna (02:03:34):
That's not the only paradigm out there.
Kate, I guess I wanted to askyou, because you're closer to my
age, like have you ever in yourentire life had a second of
seriously thinking aboutdetransitioning?
Because I haven't.
Like, like I got on estrogenand I'm just like this.
Is it like I've never regrettedor thought about it ever?

(02:03:55):
So it's hard for me tounderstand Eden.
I mean, how do you feel?

Kate (02:04:01):
I feel like detransition in general is just a result of
lowering the bar for transitionitself.
If it's a life or deathsituation, if it is the last
hope that someone has, they'regoing to cling to it and it'll
continue to be a flotationdevice for them throughout the
rest of their lives.
But if the bar is quite low andpeople are just putting things

(02:04:26):
on like an outfit, it's notsurprising that they get sick of
a particular outfit one day andtry are just putting things on
like an outfit.
It's not surprising that theyget sick of a particular outfit
one day and try to put somethingelse on.
I'm not surprised by the numberof detransitioners at present.
I think everyone is a littlebit tragic, and certainly the
female to male is more tragic,simply because of the permanence

(02:04:46):
of testosterone.
But yeah, no, I'm not surprised,I've never encountered such a
thing back in the day, itwouldn't have been a thing, yeah
.

Brianna (02:04:55):
How do you feel about it, Taff?

Taf (02:04:58):
I reached out to Miles, who used to go by Salome like years
ago to do an interview, mm-hmm,and I like found out about him
through his sub stack and he wassaying kind of like radical,

(02:05:22):
maybe even kind of I don't knoweven like slightly, slightly
like racist things on there, andI found it fascinating that
here was this person who was atrans woman and a model in New
York and you know someone who issinging at a professional level

(02:05:44):
as well in you know the femaleregister and they're also
writing these like radical andstrange things online.
And so I reached out and I didan interview with him way back
then and it was reallyinteresting the entire interview
.
We just talked about histwitter profile, um, like, not

(02:06:05):
just his twitter profile, justTwitter bio, because it had
maybe like five things in it,and we just went thing by thing,
talk to me about everythingabout this.
And even then I was struck thatI was struck by the sense that
Miles had a really deepreligious conviction.

(02:06:25):
Deep religious conviction, um,really believed in the
catholicism that they practiced,and this was also like deeply,
deeply at odds with their transidentity.
So I think what they talk aboutin the video, you know, feeling
like they had to choose betweenthe transness and God.

(02:06:49):
I think I'm not surprised thatthey chose God.
Based on what I know about him,I think it's something you
probably could have seen coming.
But I also think it's unique inthat I think there probably is
something like very deep andunderlying and biological about

(02:07:10):
their transness.
Um, that isn't going to go away, and so I think that they're
going to be like struggling withthat forever and I hope they
find what they're looking for inGod in their relationship with
Milo.
Um, I can like only hope thebest for them, but it does like
worry me as well, because I justdon't know if I don't know if

(02:07:34):
they're going to be like happylong-term and maybe like, in a
way, I would be like it would benice if it was just like kind
of a stunt and you know they hadmore clarity on like what they
were doing and it was just likea temporary thing that you know.
Maybe then they would likereally commit to religion or to
transness or you know, whateverit is.
But I do, in that video, Ithink I I get the sense of

(02:07:57):
someone who is kind of like lostand still finding their way.

Sky (02:08:02):
I agree yeah, I think it's interesting.
You say that because thespeculation on, like, how
they're going to manage, I mean,if gender dysphoria was a part
of their story I mean that'swhat I sort of wonder and where
I think the speculation herecomes from, because he doesn't
talk about it in the video atall.

(02:08:23):
I think about, like, what ledto that decision to transition
in the first place.
So now, detransitioning as ameans of, I guess, being more
honest with people that was atheme in the video at least.
Like that they're not that he'snot like being dishonest when
people refer to him as a womanor an actress, and I found that

(02:08:45):
compelling.
But also I was like, like yousaid, where does this go now?
Does that mean you're going tokeep your hair short and you're
going to go on testosterone andall these things?
What does detransition mean?

Taf (02:08:59):
I think you might still be taking estrogen.
I'm planning to continue doingthat, which is why some people
were kind of memeing on thevideo and saying things like oh,
you know, like all you've doneis like cut your hair and this
is like so dramatic and that's.
You know, the most womanlything you could do is cut your
hair short and then break down.

Sky (02:09:22):
So it almost sounds more like it's what I've been, what
I've also been seeing moreonline, I think lately too which
is like an ideologicaldetransition where it has a lot
more to do about yourself-conception and less about,
like, physical appearance ortaking hormones.
I mean, granted, they shavedtheir heads, so there is that,
but in which case then, like I,would also be detransitioned.

Taf (02:09:44):
Um, yeah, like ideological.
So I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know.
I think that they'll likefigure it out eventually, but I
don't know.
Milo is kind of a aninteresting chaotic character
he's, so awful.

Brianna (02:10:00):
He's so bad faith, he's so narcissistic, he has nothing
interesting to say.
He's just a broken person.
I can get along with a lot ofpeople, but he's just a bad
human being in my view.
But what I wanted to say isthis is look, next week we have
John Michael Bailey on and I'msure we will get into the

(02:10:22):
problematic and somewhatquestionable AGP versus HSTS
typology, of which I am kind ofunconvinced.
It's completely there.
But what I have heard is myfriend I don't want to say their
name, I have a good friendthat's told me this that what

(02:10:45):
happens for people that are moreautosexual and they
detransition is they have tostay on that estrogen, because
the stuff that made themtransition in the first place
comes back if they try to getoff of that.
So I would be very interested.
Like I can't see pariah likebeing happy, like going back on

(02:11:07):
T and trying to live as a man.
That's just really hard for meto see.
So I don't know.

Taf (02:11:12):
I will say I think saloon or like miles, the one of the
only trans men who I had evermet who I thought like you know,
yeah, I would like totally.
You know, if you like, fellinto the hsts, I would totally
believe that for you.
Yeah, I think mostly I meettrans women who I think feel AGP

(02:11:34):
or they don't feel like eithernecessarily, but she definitely
presented as like a gay guy whohad depression, yeah, 100%.
And so, yeah, I think she, ifanything, falls into that
category and obviously I don'tknow, know like what goes on in
her brain.
Maybe she's like the most AGPperson, but just like, in terms
of presentation they seemed likeASL students, whatever that

(02:11:55):
means.

Brianna (02:11:55):
I mean can't you see in this political climate?
I'd love to know what you thinkof this, Kate, Like can't you
see in this political climate,because I think you're so right
when you say you know.
Like for us, you had to really,really, really, really, really
want it.
So the people that transitionedin our era were the like
extreme cases.
But can you not see a lot ofpeople that just get to be

(02:12:20):
exhausted with the politicalconversation and it's just like
the mental, the mental barrageof being in this social media
world right now?
Can you not see a lot of peoplejust going like, yeah, I just
give up.
I mean, I think this is goingto happen more and more.

Kate (02:12:37):
Actually, I miss the silence.
The silence on all these issueswas just lovely, wonderful,
just get on with it.
Yeah.
And there are people workingbehind the scenes on on all
these issues was just lovely,wonderful, just get on with it.
And there are people workingbehind the scenes on policy
improvements andanti-discrimination and they
were working their butts off,I'm sure, but it was quiet and

(02:12:58):
we all loved it, yeah.

Sky (02:13:01):
It's different.

Kate (02:13:03):
One of the things I wanted to expound on when I was
thinking about way back then.
There was a lot of self-hatredOne of the things I wanted to
expound on when I was thinkingabout way back then.
There was a lot of self-hatredassociated with transition back
then and that held people backOnce that self-hatred is no
longer an oppressive force.
Yeah, you're going to see morepeople transition.

(02:13:24):
And I think you know, obviously,getting that load off of
people's back is just an amazingthing.
Self-hatred is probably one ofthe worst crippling things that
anyone can deal with in life andit drives you, in most extreme
cases, to suicide.
So, yeah, get rid of that Open.
You know, let people exploretheir gender.
But, yeah, transition is goingto be part of it.

(02:13:47):
Whenever there's an expansionof liberty, you have mistakes
made, but if you trust people,if you believe fundamentally
that people deserve to be ableto make their own decisions, we
have to, as a society, expect alittle bit of that, and this is
true whether it's SecondAmendment or freedom of speech,

(02:14:10):
or the right for an adult tomanage their own body.

Sky (02:14:14):
Correct, yeah, and this is where, like also when it comes
to the concept of detransition,I like it being framed as part
of for me at least, as part ofsomeone's journey, as opposed to
it being a necessarilyregretful decision off of their
transition.
Because I just don't think,like, if I was to ever
detransition, I do think aboutthis sometimes from the basis of

(02:14:36):
the long-term medical aspect ofbeing on HRT.
Otherwise, I'm completely happyand, like Brianna said, I would
never, ever consider it.
But let's say, like I had ablood clot or something and
estrogen was a problem orsomething, and then this I don't
know presented itself as aproblem.
Um, I would never think that mydetransition means that, like,

(02:14:57):
transition didn't help me in thefirst place, like it was
absolutely essential for memanaging my gender dysphoria,
and I will always say that.
And it's like, if I ever didhave a detransition, it would.
It would be in that same courseof critical decision making
based on what I have to do tomanage my situation.
Um, and so that's where, like,I also would be so curious to

(02:15:22):
hear more from Miles, like doyou regret your transition at
all or do you feel like ithelped you reach where you got
today?

Brianna (02:15:31):
so I wanted to ask you, I wanted to ask you, sky, like
I, I consider like I amreligious, but I'm not.
I wouldn't say how can I putthis?
I'd love to know how you feelabout this too, kate, but for me
it's like I grew up in a reallyreligious household, right, and
when I transitioned I turnedreally really atheist, really

(02:15:53):
really aggressively, justbecause, like back in these days
, there was no space for transpeople to be like religious
right.
It was very much the religiousright versus LGBT Turned against
it really hard and then, afterI got past the transition part
and put my anger aside, I was alot more able to look at this

(02:16:15):
and be like no, this structurehas value, this belief has value
, this principle of gracetowards others has value.
But there's, admittedly, alwaysbeen a distance there, because I
never feel like the church isever going to really
enthusiastically be behind myhusband.
So you know, when I go tochurch, it's like, oh, brianna

(02:16:36):
Wu, the local person who's wellknown, is going to church, but
it's not like do you know what Imean?
It's more of an event than likea community, because I can't be
anonymous the same way I couldas a child.
So I don't know, I see this andI see pariah detransitioning
because of religious reasons andI see that and I go.

(02:17:00):
Well, that doesn't have anythingto do with any of the religious
lessons I learned or anything Ifind valuable from religion,
like, so I guess, as the personon this show who I consider you
to be, more like faith to have abigger component in your life
than mine, how do you kind oftake that?
Like like the religiouspressure internal being such a

(02:17:22):
big part of why they decided toto move away from this?
Like, do you ever feel likeyou're living in sin?
Because I don't.
Like I think God made me thisway and I have to deal with that
.
I think that's the challenge ofmy life.

Sky (02:17:38):
Ooh yeah, very loaded, very loaded question.
But is it loaded?
Is it loaded?
I'm trying to be neutral, no, Imean, it's just that the
content of it is so.
It's so heavy, um, in terms oflike growing up in a religious
household, that absolutely wouldhave considered.
I mean, there were, there werederogatory comments about gay

(02:17:59):
people all the time, becausethey from my you know I don't
want to say from who exactly,but um, from people I grew up
with, because of it beingconsidered sin and et cetera.
And I think the big shiftingpoint for me because I did
struggle with thinking, oh yeah,this is sin, Like this is a bad
part of me, this genderdysphoria.

(02:18:19):
I'm feeling I need to be happywith who I am.
And ultimately I think it was agift because it gave me the
impetus to challenge my naturalinclinations, my own thinking.
But ultimately the shift for mewas realizing that it's really
a medical issue when it comes tohow I'm navigating my daily

(02:18:39):
life, because I can't interactwith things I just can't like
exist and do well at anythingwithout having disruption and
thoughts about my genderbecoming a problem because it
became a bigger problem overtime, and so, like from looking

(02:19:04):
at scripture, because that'slike the basis of how Christians
, you know, will make decisionsand live their life is scripture
.
I came to see like, okay, yes,god created me as a male and
that is never going to change,and that's okay.
Like I can accept that reality.
But God has also given, told usto be good stewards of our
bodies and ourselves, and, quitefrankly, gender dysphoria was
causing me to be a bad stewardof myself and all those ways

(02:19:27):
besides just rendering meineffective and in so many other
capacities, and so I think whatreally shifted for me was again
that viewpoint of seeing itmore as a disability, as
something to be managed, andthen seeing, like technology, as
the means by which you know, wecan.
In this day and age, we havemore options available to us to

(02:19:48):
make it through that struggle,through medical transition, and
this is where, like thesedetransition videos of people
that are detransitioning forreligious reasons, really it
rubs me the wrong way, becauseit's like well, what about the
Christian that is transitioning?
Like, does that mean theirfaith is invalid?

(02:20:08):
Now, because you'reinterpreting it this way, like
scripture can be interpreted alot of different ways, and this
is where I always come back towhen it's like you got to be
really careful with like rigidreadings out of scripture and I
don't know.
I just I think it has a lotmore to do with the heart, and
God judges the heart.

(02:20:29):
That's what he says inscripture and that's what Jesus
is about is about your heart,and so I think, like your heart
can absolutely be in the rightplace and be transitioning, like
the two are not at odds, yeah.

Brianna (02:20:41):
Kate, did you grow up in a religious house at all or
did you struggle with this atall?

Kate (02:20:45):
Yeah, I grew up in a fairly devout Catholic home.
My mom was literally a nun likeex-nun, but a nun.
She had divorced from thechurch and the Pope.
It's papal decree.
They have to sign off andthings.
So she's still very devout andone of the biggest things that

(02:21:09):
helped her through my transitionagain this is a long time ago
but was her priest.
She went to her priest and herpriest just taught her about
goodness and humanity andmorality and continued to
empathize with her on thismedical situation, not impacting

(02:21:33):
those things.
I went through a differentjourney.
I think transness was asignificant component to me
becoming atheist, honestly.
I mean there were times.
I don't know if you've everread the book the Sparrow.
It was one of my favorite booksI've read that Fantastic
science fiction book.

Brianna (02:21:52):
Yeah, what is this about?
Oh, it's so good.

Taf (02:21:56):
It's about the Jesuits who, like they, end up traveling to
a distant planet, and it dealsdeeply with themes of religion.

Kate (02:22:05):
Oh, my gosh.
I remember when I hit that partand I'm not going to spoil it
because honestly it's brilliant.
But there's this one part backtoward the end of the book where
everything came into questionfor me and I remember sitting
there, screaming, wailing, in mycar at an airport because I

(02:22:27):
couldn't leave the airport.
I had to finish this book.
I screamed and cursed God tothe extreme that had been
building for decades, since Iwas a child.
That book got it out.
I tell you what.

(02:22:47):
It was a fight for me, and I'mnot saying that being you know,
being atheist at this point inmy life is the right choice for
me.
You know who knows, Frankly,I'm agnostic, but you know
anyway, yeah, yeah, I grew up init and still exist in it when I

(02:23:09):
go home.
Yeah, yeah, are you religious?

Taf (02:23:13):
at all.
How do you feel I am notreligious.
I think I'm fairly solidly inthe atheist camp, very, very
influenced by Nietzsche and hiswritings on religion.
So yeah, that's kind of where Itend to come at it from.

(02:23:33):
But I'm interested in religionand I've been reading the Bible,
still working through it.
I read ahead and then I've comeback recently to the book of
Jeremiah, which is fantastically.
Ooh, that's a good one.
It's so intense and it'sinteresting to read and be like

(02:23:57):
oh, I really like how thissection is written, or I don't
super like how that section iswritten.
So I have a lot of respect forreligion and I'm sort of
fascinated by it and I thinkit's important to understand
deeply.
But I also, you know, when Ithink about Miles and his
detransition, it makes sense tome and I can imagine someone

(02:24:21):
who's very into Catholicism,specifically Skylar.
I don't know what denominationof Christian you are,
catholicism specifically.

Sky (02:24:28):
Skylar, I don't know what denomination of Christian you
are Growing up.
It was alwaysnon-denominational, but
effectively it's likeevangelicalism.

Taf (02:24:39):
Yeah, yeah, because I think that Protestants also have like
a very different view on this.
The relationship with God ismuch more personal and I think
from the Protestant perspectiveit makes more sense to kind of
be like well, I have my personalrelationship with God and it
entails these sorts of things.
You know, maybe transition is apart of that relationship.
But I think for someone likeMiles who is very much on the

(02:25:03):
Catholic side of things, it'skind of like, you know, you're
either part of the CatholicChurch or you're not, and he
takes those Catholic preceptsvery seriously and so if there's
prohibitions against transitionfrom a Catholic perspective, I
think that's a lot harder tojustify.
Like it's probably a bigtension.

(02:25:24):
I don't know if you found thisto be true in your transition,
kate, because yeah, it's hard tomarry Catholicism with that.
And your mother I'm so gladthat she had like a priest to
navigate her through that, toapproach you with like kindness
and empathy.
But from like a personalperspective, it's totally
different to have like agencyover your transition and to be

(02:25:45):
sort of forced with that toughdecision.

Kate (02:25:47):
Your transition and to be sort of forced with that tough
decision.
Sure it's fun.
I?
I'm married a devout christian,um, although he does parts more
calvinist.
Um, from a liberal bibleperspective.
Um, you know it's.
It's a funny thing, balancing,balancing religion with, with
transness, I don't think is.
I mean, I hope people come toterms with it at some point and

(02:26:10):
find their little slice of peace.

Sky (02:26:13):
Um, I'm not the one to to guide through that,
unfortunately sometimes I thinkyou can find like peace in the
tension of the two in a way.
It's weird to say, but it's likethat's sort of what I found is
like I'm happiest when I'm notin just one group or the other,

(02:26:33):
when I'm like tethered inbetween, taking the best parts
of each.
That's just how, like I don'tknow, I I've always felt that
way because I I feel liketransitioning, even though we
say like or like I'll say likeI'm a trans woman, but it's like
transitioning is something youdo too, like you have to like
medically transition, and soit's like I don't know.
I feel like that ongoingness ispart of like the element of

(02:26:58):
where I want to hold everythingin tension when it comes to my
beliefs and what like scripturesays and what people say,
because the moment I stopholding it in tension, I'm a
closed book.
People say, because the momentI stop holding an intention, I'm
a closed book and I want to belike an open book and able to
like adapt and understand, likewhere I need to go next or what
I should do.

Brianna (02:27:15):
I think that's amazing.
Yeah, before we um end thistopic, I want to ask you, kate,
because I'm, I'm, I'm veryProtestant, I'm very
Presbyterian.
If you're not familiar withthat, we're kind of the hardcore
, very formal, very storied,very stiff rule following.

(02:27:41):
We're not like Baptists orEvangelicals at all.
We're much more like hey,here's the philosophy.
We're going to go do athree-hour seminar on this so
you can know exactly why youbelieve in predestination.
That's kind of culture.
So how we understand, like withcatholicism, why would pariah
or miles I'm doing my best here,I apologize, but why would the
catholic church make them feelall this pressure to

(02:28:04):
detransition?
Because it's hard, like I thinkit's exactly like you said,
taff, for me because of theculture I grew up in.
It's so my interpretation ofthe good in what I found and
those values I bring in my lifeand the standards I hold myself,
to help me understand like aninstitution having that much

(02:28:25):
power over your own identity,because that's really hard for
me to conceive of it's.

Kate (02:28:32):
It's difficult for me too, yeah, but it's.
It's generational in somefamilies as well and it's tied
into um culture and familyculture and and with with
institutions like Catholicismand, probably to a similar
degree, aspects of Judaism.
It's wildly mixed into yourcustoms and your history and, if

(02:28:58):
you feel like that's at risk,it's a big chunk of who you are.
From a specifics perspective, Ididn't see anything in
particular that would drive meone way or the other, except for
the sacrament of marriage,which is fairly stringent with
respect to biological sex, tosteal Brad's term.

(02:29:20):
Well, that crushed my mom.
You know when she was like oh,she's not going to be able to be
married in the church.
It didn't bother me so much,but yeah that was probably the
main thing, and that was thething the priest couldn't
compromise on, because it'sindoctrinated.

Brianna (02:29:39):
That's so hard, oh my goodness.
So I guess, before we close theshow out, taff, I wanted to
give just a minute to talk aboutthis.
You were telling us a storyabout leaving a discord server
this week.
Do you want to talk about thatreally quickly?

Taf (02:29:58):
yeah, I think I can talk about it.
It's something that I don'tnecessarily know, I have, like
the perfect language for, but Iwas friends with a group of

(02:30:19):
people for a very, very longtime, like I.
You know, I started talking tothem in like 2018.
Spoke with them like every dayof my life, uh, just incessantly
shared everything with them,you know, as there's many trans
people in this group, so aspeople got like surgeries, they
would post like surgery photosand, you know, I got to see all

(02:30:41):
of these people's transitionsfrom beginning to end, and they
got to see mine.
And, yeah, I don't know ifthere's so much of a story, but
just in my life I um, I thinkI've sort of like grown apart
from these people over the time.
I think part of that is myfault, uh, because I think I've

(02:31:06):
not always been like the bestfriend and I think that I've
often been dealing with my ownthings, my own problems, and
that's led me to, you know, bemore quick to anger or to
argument with people, and Ithink I have not always been the
best at reaching out to peopleand deepening connections with

(02:31:29):
them or really showing likegenuine interest in their lives.
One of my 2025, like new year'sgoals, is to really become like
deeply interested in people,like really deeply care for them
, and to practice that care.
I think that's kind of thefoundation of friendship, yeah.

(02:31:52):
But yeah, so I think there's,over time, like a sort of gap
between me and these peopledeveloped, and I think it's been
frustrating because, as maybethe personal gap grew, tensions
around politics have become likemore intractable or difficult

(02:32:14):
to deal with or they becomenastier.
And so, even though, like Idon't usually have negative or
personal feelings regardingpolitical differences with
people, I have noticed that,like, when there is a point of
disagreement, it sometimes turnslike really personal and really
nasty very quickly.
Yeah, and I noticed that likeas far back as 2021, but I sort

(02:32:38):
of didn't say anything or reallystand up for myself, I think,
because at that time I dealtwith a lot more self-image
issues and I didn't reallybelieve that I could like find
other friends or I felt kind oflike trapped, unable to speak my
mind or stand up for myself.
And now that I've dealt with alot of those issues, I feel more

(02:33:03):
comfortable just sort ofputting distance between myself
and this group of people, reallyjust like a few people within
the group, but it's been likehard emotionally to kind of like
put that extra distance betweenmyself and people that I really
do genuinely continue to careabout very deeply, and so I

(02:33:24):
don't know, I'm continuing tonavigate that.
I don't know what it'll looklike.

Brianna (02:33:51):
But yeah, in my life that's what I book, like
learning how this works, becausethat's like one thing.
But like sometimes, like I havesomeone who I genuinely,
genuinely care about and Ithought we were really good
friends in this israel palestinething, like I'm on one side and
it has genuinely destroyed ourfriendship into a way that
they've just been tremendouslyabusive to me and you know I

(02:34:14):
almost want to call her up andbe like you know we just like it
hurts me when she starts totell me but is it someone that
we know?

Taf (02:34:24):
I don't know if y'all know her now.

Brianna (02:34:25):
Okay, okay, yeah, know I don't know if y'all know her.
No, okay, yeah, but it's, it'sjust it's.
I think it's.
This is something I think about.
A lot is, I think, like thepurpose of Dollcast is I think
we're trying to model somebetter friendship and social
patterns for the community.
It's hard for me not to notice,like, like I'd love to know if

(02:34:47):
you've experienced this, katelike it's really hard for me to
think of trans friendships I'vehad for like 10 years.
Right, it really feels like wetend to dip in and out of each
other's lives and it's.
It's weird, because we havesuch a bizarre experience that
you would think we would beextremely close and instead I

(02:35:09):
think it's almost like we end upbecoming the vessels for all
this self-hate or neurosis thateach other feels about stuff, or
either we're like such damagedpeople that it's hard for us to
have friendships long term.
I don't know what it is, butit's like sometimes I talk to
cis girls and they've hadfriendships since kindergarten

(02:35:31):
and I'm so jealous of that.
Does.
Does that make sense to you?

Kate (02:35:36):
does I?
My story is a little unique inthat I actively um stepped away
from everything I did too.
I did too.
I kept one friend with the sameexperience but ironically we
never talked about it.
It wasn't part of ourfriendship.

(02:35:56):
Our friendship was justfriendship based on common
experiences.
We were in our 20s together,you know she was at my wedding.
I was hers, but it wasn't a.
It wasn't a trans friendship.
I recently connected last weekwith a group of women that

(02:36:21):
really helped help me through inthe mid-2000s after I pulled
away.
But I still needed support andcamaraderie and we connected
after 15, 20 years of notspeaking and it's been lovely.
The families and the marriagesand the education and the lives

(02:36:43):
just these amazing lives thatall these women have lived and I
could not be happierreconnecting with them and
getting to learn what theirlives have turned into.
But I've also lost some.
I've lost some that neverrecovered from me separating for
for so long.

Sky (02:37:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel like for me it was very similar
to what you described of likepulling away.
I did have a couple of friendsthat I managed to kind of keep
through the transition andthrough the years, but I did
lose some as well, and somereally close friends too.
But I think I found that, likeit was kind of what you said.

(02:37:25):
Um, really with like, when itcomes to just not talking that
much about being trans, like Idon't know, there's just like
not a lot that I have to liketalk about that I really have
that I want to talk about there,as opposed to like what do you
do?
Like what are your activitiesor what are your interests?
Like that's where I'llgravitate a lot more naturally.
Um, because I guess you know,part transition it depends on

(02:37:49):
who you are, but like I mean,for all of us it's it's very
true that like we don't wantbeing trans to be something
that's part of our lives everyday, so we're not looking to
connect on that, we're lookingto connect on other things, and
so it ends up being like, well,do you have the same interests
or not, kind of deal.

Brianna (02:38:08):
I don't know though, because, kate, I really
identified with you with whatyou said at the beginning of the
show, where it was like therewas this unpacked box of trauma
that you put away, because forme it really was.
Like I transitioned, I got onhormones, I came to the
conclusion the community was toounhealthy to spend a lot of
time in and, by the way, this isthe 2004 version of the

(02:38:30):
community right, and I just veryconsciously left the community
did not talk about it.
Like I went many, many years,like I knew trans people
occasionally, but I literallyjust it's not that I was ashamed
of who I was, it it was just Iwanted to focus on my own life,
on my own marriage and my career, and really was very conscious

(02:38:51):
of building that.
And like I came back to it lastyear and it's been very
interesting because, like you,kate, I was really unsure of how
I felt about a lot of moderntrans politics.
And you'd unpack like non-binarystuff, or you know, like trans
women that go non-op, or youknow, like this agp thing, like

(02:39:16):
I needed to like figure out mypositions there in some ways,
like I, I don't mind just beingvulnerable and saying like y'all
are deeply important people inmy life taft and uh sky Like I.
Really I feel like the shownourishes a part of me every
single week and I look forwardto it in a way.
I don't other professionalprojects that I do, but it's

(02:39:37):
also like the amount ofheadspace that I spend thinking
about trans stuff is so muchhigher than it used to be.
Yeah, I have really mixedfeelings about that.
If that makes sense to you,yeah, I like never.

Taf (02:39:52):
I used to never think about trans things really.
Or for like a long period in mylife I thought about trans
things and I stopped.
I made a conscious decision tosort of like move away from that
, and then I just didn't.
And then I started this showand now I like talk about trans,
started this show and now Ilike talk about trans things
weekly and I think about it alot more than I did previously.

(02:40:13):
So I don't know, I think thatthat there's a feeling of like
obligation in this moment intime to address these issues, to
come back into talking aboutthem and to help make sense of
things, especially when we'veallowed people to speak for us
for so long you know this andoftentimes say things that

(02:40:36):
aren't helpful to us.

Sky (02:40:37):
So I think it's yeah, yeah, yeah, obligation duty.
I couldn't agree more likethat's I'm.
I am in a unique place here, Ifeel like because I don't like
the spotlight, like I don't likebeing on podcasts.
To be honest, like the formatis scary to me, but I love each
of you and I love the guests wehave on and I love what we talk

(02:41:00):
about is fun, but I'm not thebest speaker and I don't even
need to do this and it's like,but I feel obligated deeply to
help write the ship that hasgone so long, so it's about to
sink, like it is so close.
And I know, brie, we've talkedabout this and you know you've
seen the writing on the wall andI believe you and I believe

(02:41:22):
everyone here knows can seewhere things are going.
You don't need to have amicroscope to see that.
It's easy, and so, like I Ijust wanted to echo again and be
like yeah, I'm here for thatexact reason, um, because I want
to help be the voice.
I want to override the voicesthat have been speaking to us,
speaking on our behalf for us,for so long.

Brianna (02:41:43):
Um did you feel any responsibility to do that and
kind of saying yes today, like,do you, how do you feel about
the way trans stuff has gone?
Like, do you, do you worryabout the future?
How, what's kind of yourassessment of everything?

Kate (02:41:59):
of course I worry about the future although I didn't for
a very long time and know thatis the best way to live is just
to get on with it.
But when you're bombardednonstop with talking heads on
television and headlineadvertisements on newspapers, it

(02:42:21):
just gets to you, it eats awayat you, even if you're invisible
and unaffected.
Practically it's a poison andwe have to purge the poison.
We are not ever going to beable to survive in a world that
looks at us in that way.

(02:42:41):
I haven't lived in that worldfor a long time, but I was born
in a state where I could changemy birth markers.
I was born in a time when Ihave no internet presence.
That doesn't exist, exceptmaybe on Napster or something
like that.

Brianna (02:43:02):
I got lucky up on Napster, I'm going to find it.
Yeah, look.

Kate (02:43:08):
Yeah, so I'm not worried about myself when will we find
it?
My conservative dad is like oh,that has nothing to do with you
, right?
But it does, and it has a lotto do with the next generation
who are going to be fightingthis publicly with long
histories on social media.
So, yeah, I felt obligated.

(02:43:31):
Now I'm still practicallystealth in my day-to-day life.
My in-laws don't even know, soI will resolve that issue,
probably shortly before it'sresolved for me, but yeah.
I've got a lot of coming out todo in the next whatever if this

(02:43:53):
becomes a thing I'll have toresolve those issues.
Yeah.

Brianna (02:43:57):
Yeah, how do you feel about that Coming out?
Yeah, ah, gross, it's awful.
It's awful.
I hate having these discussionsnow Like it's awful.
I hate that I do media.
It's the first thing people askme about.
I hate that Pierce Morgan isnot calling for me to talk about

(02:44:18):
Israel-Palestine.
He's asking me about transstuff.
Like I just hate it.
I hate it.

Kate (02:44:25):
Yeah, and it's anticipating being treated like
other.
I haven't had.
Yeah, and it's anticipatingbeing treated like other.
I haven't had to deal with itfor a very long time, but I
remember and I hated it back inthe day, when people they're
respectful, they're lovely, butthey keep you at a distance.
You are an at-arms reactionbecause you're other, and that

(02:44:52):
is some of the that's uh thateats away at me and I I'm kind
of bracing for impact if thatworks its way back to my life.

Brianna (02:44:58):
But don't you feel like there's a cost to hiding it all
the time?
Like I felt that as well, likethe fact that I can't tell you
how many times I was in ameeting someone would start
going off on trans people, right, and you'd just be sitting
there thinking like, oh mygoodness gracious, like you know
.
Or seeing stuff and talkingaround it like it's.

(02:45:19):
It's really challenging to keepthat hidden.
So it's like lose, lose.

Kate (02:45:24):
I think yeah, the thing that bothers me the most is with
close friends that don't know.
Yeah, 100%.
Not being whole is awful, yeah,it's, you know.
Does that affect what we talk?

Ben (02:45:38):
about on a day-to-day basis .

Kate (02:45:40):
No, we have the same experiences in life and my
friends and I can talk for amillion years on normal life
stuff.
But there's a context to tobeing raised in the way we were
raised you know that addscharacter and depth and and to
set that aside and ignore itsucks.

Brianna (02:46:00):
So you know it's a.
It is a double-edged blade.
I don't know.

Kate (02:46:05):
But, I'm racing for impact to some degree.
Oh, don't feel bad, I'll getover it.
You're tough, come on Some days.
Yeah, we all have our daysright.

Brianna (02:46:20):
Amazing.
Yeah, tess, did you haveanything else you wanted to say
on that?
Nothing else.

Taf (02:46:26):
All right, all right, alright.

Sky (02:46:29):
Alright, we're going to wrap up the show.
Alright, got kind of soberingthere at the end, but otherwise
was pretty happy.
Anyways, just wanted to thankall our listeners for tuning in
today and all our viewers forwatching us.
Just want to say if you want tocheck us out and get a little
bit more into the mix, you canfind us at dollcastshowcom.

(02:46:53):
Again, that's dollcastshowcom,and until next time, stay
fabulous.

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