June 22, 2023 • 41 mins
Join us, Dominika and Chris, as we unravel the twisted tale of Susan Smith, who committed an unthinkable crime and tried to blame a black man for her actions. We'll delve into Susan's troubled past, including her tumultuous childhood, abusive stepfather, and multiple suicide attempts, and consider how societal issues like racism and mental health played a part in this chilling case.
Hosted by Dominika Best and Christopher Gordon.
Visit thebeststorytellingnetwork.com where you’ll find show notes, my books, links to sources for this episode, social media and much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey everybody, welcome to the Deviant Mind.
This is Dominica.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And this is Chris.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And hopefully the sound issues will be okay.
I'm outside next to a tenniscourt, which is a little wild,
and hopefully the sounddeadening things will work out
And this today we have a caseanother female, actually very,
(00:59):
very tragic by the name of SusanSmith, right?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Susan Smith.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Susan Smith In North Carolina.
I believe Union North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yep Union, North Carolina, that's right.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, So sex, betrayal and murder today on the
Deviant Mind.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah.
So Susan was born on September26, 1971, to parents that were
in a most volatile relationship,really couldn't stand one
another.
They divorced when she's sixyears old and it wouldn't be
(01:46):
long before both her momremarries and her biological
father commits suicide.
So these things greatlyaffected her.
And then eventually, down theline, she becomes a young
teenager and her stepfather issuddenly sexually abusing her.
(02:06):
The mother is aware of what'sgoing on.
Susan Smith brings this to herschool counselor, sits down with
her.
They bring in the parents.
The stepfather is like you know, it happens, but it's not as
bad as she's portraying thisLike I'm just overly
(02:27):
affectionate.
Nothing happens.
A second time she brings it upto another school counselor, as
now she's maybe like 16 yearsold and this is still happening.
And same thing nothing isreally done about it.
So she's basically living inthis house with a pedophile.
Her mom seems to be okay withthis abuse, but perhaps we
(02:47):
should as we tend to do thatmany because go back and talk
about the victims in this case,which is extremely just shocking
.
It's basically her two children, michael Smith, who's age three
(03:10):
, and Alex Smith, who's 14months old, and they were both
young.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, they were both young.
And again, this is one of thosecases where the mother is under
suspicion for the crime prettyimmediately And also has a major
hint of racism, where sheclaimed that a black man had
(03:41):
hijacked her car, with her twokids inside.
Yeah, or what she really haddone was taken the kids to a was
it a pond or a lake, andessentially let them,
essentially drown them in thecar, like let the cargo with
them strapped inside of theircar seats.
(04:02):
And when she said that theywere missing and that she had,
this black man had taken her carbut the police, from my
understanding, were suspiciousof her immediately.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yes, she was immediately on the suspect list.
The social impact.
Again, here we go.
This is a, by the way.
This is all occurring in 1994.
So it's, it's in the CarolinasAnd we still.
(04:35):
It's a society that stillbelieves.
Of course it's got to be ablack person And her story
changed.
She at first said that sheparked outside of a Walmart And
when she came out she saw ablack person breaking into her
(04:57):
car, taking the car and running.
Then she changed it to she wasat a red light and got carjacked
by a car coming the other otherdirection, driven by a black
man.
Black man forcibly takes herout and then just drives off And
the police would laterdetermine that it's.
It was nearly impossible forthat to have happened to be at a
(05:24):
green oh, it pulled upalongside or not coming the
other way.
A bigger part, the road to setup as such as the green light,
is continuous until a car fromanother direction comes, at
which point they go red And thetheory being is like that
couldn't possibly have happened.
The light would have been greenand there's no way a car next
to her going the same directionwould have, i see.
(05:48):
So that was the first indicatorAnd that was the first thing.
Also during her interrogationshe says that you know, she kind
of knows what he looks like And, as the police artists is
drawing the sketch, she'sgetting the details wrong and
(06:08):
it's kind of like she's makingit up on the spot.
She takes the lie detector testthree times, fails every time.
The first test is inclusive Theother two she fails.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Her husband.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
David passes flying colors.
So David is completely not asuspect.
In fact he too is a victim inthis whole thing.
There were his children.
He had no clue what was goingon And he's appearing on
television with her and they'repleased to, you know, find their
children.
But she, in her first TVappearance, blames a black
(06:44):
person, which instantly angersand upsets the black communities
obviously.
And then what happens is a laserpulling over black men based on
her sketch, and so many of themhave nothing to do, obviously,
with this, but it's so easy toblame at this point in time And
anytime really.
I mean, history has proven thatthis happened in time again,
(07:06):
that it's a black person.
We've got to go up to blackperson And, of course, america's
Caesar, and they believe it.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Which is awful, awful .
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Absolutely awful, but her idea at the time of putting
her children down the ramp.
She claimed that she it was asuicide attempt And she, at the
last moment, decided to hop outof the vehicle.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
That's right, because she had actually tried to
attempt suicide when she was 13,.
Right, she had a suicideattempts.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Very depressed, molested by her stepfather, her
own father committed suicide Andshe had been diagnosed as a
paranoid schizophrenic which wasnever treated And she can't
explain why she did this.
And in 2000, she pled notguilty by reason of insanity
(08:02):
which they completely did notagree with.
They felt that she wascompletely competent.
And I just want to go back toher television appearances.
She's very weird.
She fake cries a lot, and byfake crying I mean she goes
through the motions of cryingbut there are no tears, there
(08:24):
are no indicators of grief, andher husband is right next to her
and shows way more grief andnot saying a word than she does
And she sort of rambles.
So yes, she has this history ofsuicide attempts.
She claims it was a suicideattempt But for some reason at
the last minute she hops out Andas the car is rolling she's
(08:46):
helpless, she can't figure outwhat to do And it's emerged
rather quickly.
And so at this time in society,black on white crime in 1994,
robberies 36%, murders 6% andrape was 9%.
(09:08):
And this is also the same timeafter this case we have to want
to brawley if anyone remembersher and her teaming up with
Reverend L Sharpton where sheclaimed that she was getting
raped by a group of white men,which actually run up being
false.
So it's interesting there was areverse situation that happened
(09:33):
.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, how did the?
I, because I don't know if Iactually read this in my
research but did the police?
did her husband give her up?
Or like, how did the policefind out about all the affairs
she was having?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So yes, she was.
there were both ratherpromiscuous in both.
at one point they reallyweren't getting along,
especially after Alex was born,And they had a very on again,
off again relationship And itcame to a point where it seems
as though they had an openrelationship as both were having
(10:13):
extramarital affairs And shereally fell for what union
called the catch.
Now the catch is a fella named.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Tom Finlay.
Is it Tom Finlay?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yes, tom Finlay, the catch of union, very wealthy
fellow, he was the vicepresident of his father's conso
company.
Conso is responsible for thedistribution of manufacturing of
decorations, curtains, rubs,furniture.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And he was only 27 at the time.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Only 27 at the time, very wealthy, very handsome, and
she is working actually as asecretary for Conso And after a
very little time she moves upand becomes the private
secretary of the CEO, coreyFinlay, and he's essentially the
(11:15):
overrun CEO of this company.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
And so that would be Tom's father, correct, okay.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And so he was actually the one who was
attracted to Susan.
Tom was And around town started.
you know, there was a rumor.
maybe, you know, because of aRocky marriage, she's gonna,
she's gonna get the catch, andthen basically, she has to catch
(11:43):
And they do have a relationshipAnd she has this idea in her
head I'm going to start a brandnew life with the catch.
You know, with Tom I'll be set.
You know, david's really notworth this relationship We're
(12:04):
arguing so much.
And that's when they weretogether And she had Alex
actually when.
Actually okay, so when theyhave Alex they split up.
Smith and her husband, david,actually split up.
And so this would make sense inthe timeline of when she meets
(12:28):
Tom.
You know they're like, they'renot really together, they're not
sleeping in the same place.
And then December 1993 is theofficial time that Susan and Tom
formed this relationship.
In March Tom actually startskeeping a distance from Susan
(12:49):
because David finds out andactually threatens him Leave
Susan alone, she's not yours,she loves me, we have children
together.
And then it wasn't long afterthis where Susan confronts Tom,
says listen, i'm done with David, like it's just you and me,
(13:09):
like I've nothing to do withDavid, i just have my kids.
And at this time, 21, 22 yearsold, she's having a relationship
with Tom Finlay, she's stillkind of sleeping with her
husband and she's still havingthis weird sexual relationship
(13:31):
with her stepfather.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
But we should actually talk about Mr Beverly C
Russell Jr And just to kind of,you know, go with Susan, and
this is, of course, no excusefor what she did, because that
was one of the most horribleacts I think anybody could ever
do.
I can't.
When I was, it was verydifficult to research this case
(13:54):
because of the fact of, like youknow, two big babies strapped
into the backseat of a car.
Like I don't understand whatkind of monster can do that.
But that same monster did loseher father, Harry, by suicide.
She kept a coin, his coincollection and audio tape of his
voice in her drawer all the wayuntil she was in high school.
(14:16):
And then so her mom meets thisdude named Beverly C Russell Jr,
who was a local businessman,And her mother, Linda, married
him in 1979.
And he had three kids of hisown And he actually became
prominent in both the stateRepublican Party and the
(14:37):
Christian Coalition, And she,Susan, had I believe it was two
brothers, and they said thatthis man, Beverly Russell, kept
the family together because theywere falling apart because of
the suicide of their dad.
But at the same time, I am againthis kind of like really
(14:59):
surprised me, And you could tellhow difficult of a time she was
having.
So she tried to commit suicide,as we said, when she was 13.
In high school she was actuallya pretty good student, from
what I was able to find.
She was in the National HonorSociety And she's also voted
Friendliest Girl in her yearbookAnd she seemed, you know, very
(15:20):
attractive.
Mind you, when she did thishorrible, horrible thing she was
only 23.
So I can't imagine having twobabies at 23.
And when you have a totallydisturbed, suicidal individual
who is also still sleeping withher stepfather.
I don't know if you mentionedthis, but she had slept with her
stepfather a month before shedrowned her children.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, i didn't mention it, but yeah, that's
there.
And then did we mention that hewas a stockbroker at the time
he married her mom.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, So he was.
He was wealthy as well, Andthey did go to the police two
times and said that he hadfondled her breasts, Yeah, And
he had put her hand on hisgenitals after she had crawled
into his lap to go to sleep oneevening Now.
So here's my other thing.
When that was and this is nottrying to shame anybody
whatsoever, but for a 16 yearold to be going on to her
(16:15):
stepfather's lap is I'm alreadyseeing that that 16 year old is
in distress, right Like that.
That sounds like somebody who Idon't know if she was childlike
at 16.
But there's sound, there's likeyou know.
Again, she had tried to commitsuicide at 13, but there's
something happening in hermental state for a girl to do
(16:38):
something like that at 16.
And then, of course, he jumpson the opportunity, which is
filthy and disgusting, And helost I think he lost everything.
Finally, after she killed herchildren And it came out that he
was still sleeping with her allthat time later And his
community completely churned onhim.
Her mom divorced him And I mean, quite frankly, he should be
(17:04):
put on the sex offender list asfar as I'm concerned, But which
I don't believe happened.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
But I just don't believe it ever did.
And incidentally, yeah, she's16 when she tells her mom for
the first time what's happeningand the counselor is school
Beverly actually admitted it andnothing was done And he kept
doing it.
And then, at 17, she tells thecounselor this time and then
police are involved But the mom,her mom tells them not to press
(17:37):
charges.
Oh really, yeah.
So multiple attempts to suicideAnd actually one of her
attempts gets her put into apsychiatric treatment center.
And then, going back to whatyou were saying earlier
regarding the case, i know we'rejumping around here, but she
was actually a suspect from thevery start And it was nine days
(18:03):
that Michael and Alex weremissing And then, ninth day that
was, the confession came out.
So, yeah, you know.
So she multiple suicideattempts, as we've discussed,
and actually one of them getsher put into a psychiatric
treatment center.
And as you said earlier notmeaning to jump around, but she
(18:27):
was indeed a suspect from thevery start.
Very odd behavior, very weirdbody language during all the
interviews And she doesn't evenreally mention the children
during her appearances andpleading with America to help
(18:47):
locate these children.
But yeah, the children aremissing for nine days, car
jacked by a black mid band,supposedly, and then eventually
she confesses.
So that's how it ends.
It's basically she gives aconfession.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Now, did they actually start looking in bodies
of water for the kids?
I seem to remember having readsomething like that and I
couldn't find it in my notes.
How did they know?
did she confess and tell themexactly which lake that she had
done this at?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I believe so.
I believe she, she just brokedown and she tells the cop on
the ninth day, please pray forme.
And I have some paper and shewrote everything out.
So in that written confessionit's where I did this, where the
ramp was, and yeah, it was.
(19:45):
That's.
That's how they foundeverything out, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I see, and then so.
and now did we talk about theinfamous letter that Tom had
sent her?
that, they think, is the reasonwhy she killed her children in
the first place?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, well, so They're having this relationship,
despite David's threats.
It's on again, off again.
At a 1994 office party, susanand some other people at this
party are naked in a pool AndTom happens to walk out and see
Susan making out with thehusband of another woman that
(20:22):
works at Conso.
Oh my, he's absolutelydisgusted, he can't believe it
And he breaks up a throw in thespot.
So the hot tub breakup happensOctober 19th Now, if I stand
correct here, yeah, so that'sOctober 19th, right?
Children go missing October25th.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So we're starting with this.
Oh my God, i got caught.
I didn't mean it.
I love Tom.
And the very next day, on the20th, she leaves a note card for
David to apologize, saying thatshe will always love him.
And then Tom gives her a cardback in person which basically,
basically says I wish I could bewith you, but there are many
(21:11):
things about you which don'tmatch my lifestyle.
And so she basically startsstalking him, sending him
flowers.
He has her removed from theoffice at one point because he's
like enough is enough.
And then that is when this notecomes out And actually I back
up.
Before he writes the letter toher explaining everything and
(21:34):
why they're done, she busts inand says hey, tom, david, my
husband is following me, my lifeis in danger, my stepdad is
molesting me constantly And I'msleeping with your father, oh,
my goodness.
So she lays all of this on himAnd this is when he's like get
(21:56):
out.
Security leads her out.
She comes back and says I'msorry, i'm lying Like I never
actually did that with your dad.
David isn't trying to kick.
And so again she's kicked outof the building Hours later, if
not less.
She basically kills her children.
This is when oh, i'm sorry Shegets a letter from him right
(22:19):
After all this, he sits down andcomposes a letter And it is,
for starters, your children, idon't want children.
And he makes mention about howthey just come from very
different backgrounds, prettymuch snotty, like, look, i'm the
vice president of my dad'scompany, i'm wealthy, you don't
(22:42):
really.
You know, you're kind of poorLike he, you know, very subtly
makes mention of their class,their class differences and the
fact she has children.
And then it's nine hours afterreceiving that letter.
She basically goes ahead withthis murder.
It's absolutely a spiral.
(23:04):
I think it's her not knowinghow to deal with the situation.
Just so much influence from herchildhood.
She sees, you know, in her ownrelationship.
They're not very close, itlooks like they can get a
divorce anytime they want.
Looks like her, her parents,the molestation she.
(23:27):
It becomes normalized.
I mean, when you have acounselor and your mom not
pressing charges, you know itmanifests this like deep
depression.
This is my fault, it's shame,it's everything right.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, my dad killed himself.
He didn't.
I mean, i know there's a lot ofyou know the suicide is
extremely Okay.
That was if she thought thatwas her fault as well.
I never really found why shesaid she committed suicide at 13
.
It sounded like that was beforeshe started getting molested by
(24:04):
her stepdad, so um yeah.
So, but you know, at the sametime, you see, like a very
disturbed individual, um, whosounds it seems like she was
drowning, so that when Tom senther that letter, being like
we're done, but again I don'tknow what she was thinking about
(24:25):
, again kissing and being nakedin a hot tub with somebody
else's husband, there's justobviously, seems like issues
with sexuality that of course,stems from being sexually abused
.
I mean, it's just the?
um, what am I looking for?
I mean it's just, it's so awfulthat it permeates so many parts
(24:46):
of a woman's life.
And then I think that isactually pretty typical to have,
um, sexual abuse victims actout sexually because they have
been taught that to get love andaffection and support from
loved ones is through the sexualacts.
(25:07):
Right, i mean, everything justgets so messed up And this is
already a very vulnerable person.
And then she does somethingthat is probably the worst thing
that anybody could ever do,which is kill her children in a
horrifying way.
Um, it's just yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Uh, what's really interesting also, i feel, is
that she and David startreceiving tons of money, tons of
money and support for rewards,and this continues once she's in
prison.
People are sending her carepackages.
(25:46):
Uh, just very weird how she,you know, once the, the chief or
the sergeant goes on nationaltelevision and says Susan Smith
has just confessed to the murderof her children, there's a huge
, overwhelming gas like no onecan believe it.
She had everyone on her side,despite all her weirdness,
(26:12):
despite all this informationcoming out, despite her being
the first suspect, um, andthere's this weird, uh, just
sort of like, even the way shecan, it's all very matter of
fact, which is, i find, reallykind of.
I I can't tell if this is shemay have manipulated.
(26:33):
She certainly knows how tomanipulate situations And I feel
, you know, that's a learnedbehavior probably.
But uh, she's.
She really, for nine days, isable to capture the heart of
America and the support ofAmerica, uh, with the exception
of the black communities, and uh, it's all matter of fact.
(26:57):
There's never any real urgency.
It's all about herself, it'sall about my.
In fact, when she firstannounces and goes on television
and numerous interviews, uh,she always says my children and
she's saying she's right next toher husband It's never our
children, it's always mychildren.
Uh, my car It was.
(27:19):
You know, this happened to meand she plays the victim.
So you got to wonder how is itpossible that she was?
did she have the intent on onon killing herself with her
children?
I mean, i'm leaning towards no,because I think it was her way
(27:39):
of saying look, i don't havechildren.
What's interesting is that shegot out of the car.
The car gains momentum headsoff the ramp.
She's stood and watched.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
She stood and watched , so she could have done
something even at that pointCalled help and called help,
dove in to unclick her children,Like I mean.
So many things that she couldhave done and she didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
So it went down, submerged slowly Like she.
I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, i'mso sorry.
But uh, so they had to recreate.
They recreated that in court.
Oh, good day.
Okay To show the jury the point.
It was shot in the point ofview of the children.
(28:21):
Oh my God, i can't In the backof the car and they pushed it
into the water and the jury waslike okay.
Okay, That's that's the outthere, and then comes the
penalty.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Did she get the death penalty?
Did she?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well, so here's the thing There was a huge push for
the death penalty, and that'swhere the whole issue of capital
punishment comes in.
Right, yeah, and the Carolina's, how could you possibly do this
?
She's got to get that.
But then there's a notion youknow she spends the rest of her
life in jail.
She's got to sit and live withthis.
So she gets.
This is really crazy.
(28:54):
Uh, i have these, sorry.
So ultimately, she's arrestedfor cancer murder.
And uh, oh, my God, chris, yeah, she's ultimately arrested for
two cancer murder.
And everyone would like her toget the death penalty.
Uh, literally everyone in unionwants her to get the penalty.
(29:17):
And, uh, she, uh, ultimatelytries to declare for her, uh, or
, her defense is that she'smentally unfit to San Chua.
And then, uh, it's determined.
No, she knew absolutely whatshe was doing.
Uh, so, um, she is due.
(29:43):
She's presently 60 years old.
Okay, she's due for parole inNovember 2024.
So I don't believe, i mean,unless it's life with parole.
I've never heard of such athing.
I think, and this is crazy, butI think she only got 30 years
(30:04):
with chance of parole.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Oh wow.
They must have taken in hermental state Absolutely As part
of the sentencing.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I mean, that was the defense's whole thing.
How can you give this woman thedeath penalty?
And clearly she's like out ofher mind.
She has suffered a great deal,so much trauma.
It's this fine line, you know.
It seems like perhaps it wassome sort of I mean, can this be
classified as a crime ofpassion, Like her love?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, I mean, and because her son was only 14
months old.
then there's also a question ofpostpartum depression, like did
she go into postpartumpsychosis?
What did the postpartum periodhave to do with this Cause?
again, she's 23 with two littlebabies and already has tried to
commit suicide, So I have toassume there was something going
(30:59):
on there.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
The other thing is, like you know, later in her life
, like early 20s, she's alsodiagnosed with major depression,
to which her defense said ifthis were taken care of earlier,
perhaps none of this would havehappened, You know if you know
the process of paranoid,schizophrenic, and it's never
treated.
You try to commit suicide, youput into psychiatric treatment
and then you're released.
Your mom isn't very supportiveof you being molested by your
(31:25):
own husband.
You know There are all thesefactors And what's interesting
to note is at this time insociety, banking is a hot topic.
There are a lot of people thatare arguing that it's just, it's
a different.
Spanking was for a differenttime.
Actually, many people areprovided parents and
(31:47):
psychologists alike, andparental counselors, strongly
disagree with spanking.
This is at the time And this isalso precursor to pre-Stephanie
Simmons, a black mother whokilled her two children in a
horrific way, and Norm PatrickHall, also a mother.
(32:08):
Both of them confessed tokilling their children.
So the point being is you havethese three instances in which
eventually they confess.
Maybe that comes from some sortof maternal guilt.
Who knows?
You keep a charade going.
Oh, you know, a dangling wasstill on my baby, but then
eventually the truth comes outAnd in that case I know that was
(32:30):
a bad example.
I was a dango related silverbaby, sorry, but you know, even
she was a suspect and absolutelyno one believed that Australian
woman.
I'm blanking on her name, butso what you do have is you have
women, murderers of theirchildren, coming forward and
taking responsibility.
Her life in jail has been a veryinteresting one.
(32:52):
She's been known to manipulatefellow inmates into getting her
drugs.
She's had sexual relationshipswith prison guards to get
special privileges.
This is what they suspect willcause her not to get her parole
next year, in 2024, because shejust has so many strikes against
(33:15):
her.
And according to ChristineSmith, who was one of her
cellmates, she was completelySusan Smith was completely
delusional and had conversationswith herself as though her
children were alive.
She would speak to Max, it'sgonna be okay.
Oh, hi, alex, right, and it's injail.
She receives more money, she'sreceiving more support And she
(33:40):
basically tries to manipulateher cellmate.
And because the cellmate Susanknowing this, did not have a
mother, someone in the motherrole for her group without a
mother.
So eventually Susan becomes hermother And then she's
transferred to GreenwoodCorrectional Facility to jail,
(34:03):
and everyone agrees and startsto see that, even though she
pretends that she's the head henruling the house, she's
actually very manipulative andpeople start to see all this.
Incidentally, susan volunteersto play with visitors, visitors
children to the jail.
(34:26):
So if you're there to see.
You know your sister who'sincarcerated and you're talking
to the glass.
It's nice to know that SusanSmith is playing with her child
huh in the visiting area.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
That's insane, that is totally, totally insane.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
How about that?
It's as though and then so theyclaim this is her way of giving
to children what she was unableto get to the children she
murdered.
Right, That's horrifying,absolutely horrifying.
I think it's for mostly heracts and vivious deeds behind
(35:06):
bars that she will be deniedparole.
It doesn't seem as though she'schanged at all, and it sounds
as though the same manipulationtactics and lies that she had
pushed after she murdered herand children is still going on,
but now behind bars.
She's manipulating guards,she's manipulating her infello
(35:26):
inmates.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
That is an insane story.
I just can't believe thatthey're actually allowing her to
play with kids and the factthat she seems, I don't want to
say disturbed, but the wholemanipulation and what she's been
doing in jail.
yeah, it definitely doesn'tsound like she's gonna get out
anytime soon, And that is thecase of Susan Smith.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I gotta throw him in here that there is Memorial to
Michael and Alex at the lake andit is visited quite often.
Oh good, we can't forget howmuch this case really affected
and caused ripples throughoutour society, from accusing a
(36:14):
random black person for doingall this to capital punishment
versus not capital punishment,how we treat our children,
whether or not we was physicaldiscipline or not.
So a lot of this really kind ofaffected our society in a
really interesting way.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, no, i got into.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
so okay, so sociopath , psychotic.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I can't call it.
I can't call it either, i don'tknow.
I mean, the manipulationdefinitely sounds pretty intense
, but the-.
Do you sense there's anynarcissism involved.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean the manipulation, thefact that she thinks that her
(37:06):
kids are so potentially alive.
I mean it seems kind of like apsychotic break, if you hear it
that way, that she's stilltalking to her kids.
I'm surprised she hasn't triedto commit suicide again.
Honestly.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Now, that's the thing , That's my whole thing.
If you really you know and shedid, she attempted before and
she wanted to die right,According to her story, with her
children.
No suicide attempts in jail.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, which is really really odd, she wants parole.
She wants parole, which isagain like what?
No, you don't get to get out ofjail for that.
Yeah, that's a crazy case Anddisturbing and also, you know
it's a disturbed individual whoneeded help And if she had
gotten help the proper help andyou know, maybe this wouldn't
(37:54):
have happened.
But yeah, she turned out to bea monster who did an awful.
Awful.
I mean I can't, i can't.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I can't even with the babies.
I could tell you something verygraphic, but I won't.
Or should I?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I don't know, no no, I don't think we need graphic.
Okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
But it is, i was gonna say it's.
It all comes back to gettinghelp, like I feel like a lot of
the cases from Columbine toAngela Simpson, all these cases
that we've discussed mostrecently, and in general, if
only they received some mentalhealth, yeah, i feel it.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Mental health help.
Mental health help.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Right Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, yeah, if somebody could have noticed.
And I mean, granted, our lastcase, she was in a mental
institute, but they let her out.
So, yeah, we definitely havesome issues with mental health
stuff in this country and how,and it even and now it crosses
over to today with regards toguns.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, we need to have these background checks.
There's no reason why it'sillegal for a convict to have a
gun, so it's just these.
There's gotta be more attention.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
You know it's nice.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
May is mental health care awareness month, but what's
?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
that.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, we definitely need just much more access to it
, and I mean this was thenineties and I know that mental
health wasn't really talkedabout back then, so I know it's
much more in the forefront nowAnd yet we still have so far to
go with that, and especiallywith women needing to get extra
help after they have babiesbecause it's overwhelming and
the hormones are crazy andthere's postpartum depression,
(39:38):
is is such a thing.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Um, and then you go into that, not getting along
with your partner at all, yeah,You know, and also sleeping with
your stepfather.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Wow, To that day like just no, just just no.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I feel her certain stance is created a monster.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I think it's just that.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Um, so, yeah, so that was thefun case, not really.
It was terrible, awful of SusanSmith and uh, join us next week
.
I don't know if we're going tobe doing another female case,
but we will.
Uh, yeah, we'll see what we got.
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Next week, hopefully it'll be at a racquetball court.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah right, yeah right, okay, I'm gonna hear.
Okay, all right, all right, seeyou guys next week.
This episode was sponsored bythe Creek killer, book one in
(40:45):
the Harriet Harper thrillerseries written by me, dominica
best.
What would you do if you read?
the police found your body in acreek?
Find out in the creek killeravailable on Amazon.
Thank you for joining me andlistening to this episode.
If you like my show, pleasegive me a rating and review.
It helps other listeners findthis podcast.
(41:06):
Follow.
Dominica best presents thedeviant mind.
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forward slash the deviant mindpodcast until next time.
Hey everybody, welcome to the Deviant Mind.
This is Dominica.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And this is Chris.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And hopefully the sound issues will be okay.
I'm outside next to a tenniscourt, which is a little wild,
and hopefully the sounddeadening things will work out
And this today we have a caseanother female, actually very,
(00:59):
very tragic by the name of SusanSmith, right?
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Susan Smith.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Susan Smith In North Carolina.
I believe Union North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yep Union, North Carolina, that's right.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, So sex, betrayal and murder today on the
Deviant Mind.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah.
So Susan was born on September26, 1971, to parents that were
in a most volatile relationship,really couldn't stand one
another.
They divorced when she's sixyears old and it wouldn't be
(01:46):
long before both her momremarries and her biological
father commits suicide.
So these things greatlyaffected her.
And then eventually, down theline, she becomes a young
teenager and her stepfather issuddenly sexually abusing her.
(02:06):
The mother is aware of what'sgoing on.
Susan Smith brings this to herschool counselor, sits down with
her.
They bring in the parents.
The stepfather is like you know, it happens, but it's not as
bad as she's portraying thisLike I'm just overly
(02:27):
affectionate.
Nothing happens.
A second time she brings it upto another school counselor, as
now she's maybe like 16 yearsold and this is still happening.
And same thing nothing isreally done about it.
So she's basically living inthis house with a pedophile.
Her mom seems to be okay withthis abuse, but perhaps we
(02:47):
should as we tend to do thatmany because go back and talk
about the victims in this case,which is extremely just shocking
.
It's basically her two children, michael Smith, who's age three
(03:10):
, and Alex Smith, who's 14months old, and they were both
young.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, they were both young.
And again, this is one of thosecases where the mother is under
suspicion for the crime prettyimmediately And also has a major
hint of racism, where sheclaimed that a black man had
(03:41):
hijacked her car, with her twokids inside.
Yeah, or what she really haddone was taken the kids to a was
it a pond or a lake, andessentially let them,
essentially drown them in thecar, like let the cargo with
them strapped inside of theircar seats.
(04:02):
And when she said that theywere missing and that she had,
this black man had taken her carbut the police, from my
understanding, were suspiciousof her immediately.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yes, she was immediately on the suspect list.
The social impact.
Again, here we go.
This is a, by the way.
This is all occurring in 1994.
So it's, it's in the CarolinasAnd we still.
(04:35):
It's a society that stillbelieves.
Of course it's got to be ablack person And her story
changed.
She at first said that sheparked outside of a Walmart And
when she came out she saw ablack person breaking into her
(04:57):
car, taking the car and running.
Then she changed it to she wasat a red light and got carjacked
by a car coming the other otherdirection, driven by a black
man.
Black man forcibly takes herout and then just drives off And
the police would laterdetermine that it's.
It was nearly impossible forthat to have happened to be at a
(05:24):
green oh, it pulled upalongside or not coming the
other way.
A bigger part, the road to setup as such as the green light,
is continuous until a car fromanother direction comes, at
which point they go red And thetheory being is like that
couldn't possibly have happened.
The light would have been greenand there's no way a car next
to her going the same directionwould have, i see.
(05:48):
So that was the first indicatorAnd that was the first thing.
Also during her interrogationshe says that you know, she kind
of knows what he looks like And, as the police artists is
drawing the sketch, she'sgetting the details wrong and
(06:08):
it's kind of like she's makingit up on the spot.
She takes the lie detector testthree times, fails every time.
The first test is inclusive Theother two she fails.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Her husband.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
David passes flying colors.
So David is completely not asuspect.
In fact he too is a victim inthis whole thing.
There were his children.
He had no clue what was goingon And he's appearing on
television with her and they'repleased to, you know, find their
children.
But she, in her first TVappearance, blames a black
(06:44):
person, which instantly angersand upsets the black communities
obviously.
And then what happens is a laserpulling over black men based on
her sketch, and so many of themhave nothing to do, obviously,
with this, but it's so easy toblame at this point in time And
anytime really.
I mean, history has proven thatthis happened in time again,
(07:06):
that it's a black person.
We've got to go up to blackperson And, of course, america's
Caesar, and they believe it.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Which is awful, awful .
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Absolutely awful, but her idea at the time of putting
her children down the ramp.
She claimed that she it was asuicide attempt And she, at the
last moment, decided to hop outof the vehicle.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
That's right, because she had actually tried to
attempt suicide when she was 13,.
Right, she had a suicideattempts.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Very depressed, molested by her stepfather, her
own father committed suicide Andshe had been diagnosed as a
paranoid schizophrenic which wasnever treated And she can't
explain why she did this.
And in 2000, she pled notguilty by reason of insanity
(08:02):
which they completely did notagree with.
They felt that she wascompletely competent.
And I just want to go back toher television appearances.
She's very weird.
She fake cries a lot, and byfake crying I mean she goes
through the motions of cryingbut there are no tears, there
(08:24):
are no indicators of grief, andher husband is right next to her
and shows way more grief andnot saying a word than she does
And she sort of rambles.
So yes, she has this history ofsuicide attempts.
She claims it was a suicideattempt But for some reason at
the last minute she hops out Andas the car is rolling she's
(08:46):
helpless, she can't figure outwhat to do And it's emerged
rather quickly.
And so at this time in society,black on white crime in 1994,
robberies 36%, murders 6% andrape was 9%.
(09:08):
And this is also the same timeafter this case we have to want
to brawley if anyone remembersher and her teaming up with
Reverend L Sharpton where sheclaimed that she was getting
raped by a group of white men,which actually run up being
false.
So it's interesting there was areverse situation that happened
(09:33):
.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, how did the?
I, because I don't know if Iactually read this in my
research but did the police?
did her husband give her up?
Or like, how did the policefind out about all the affairs
she was having?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
So yes, she was.
there were both ratherpromiscuous in both.
at one point they reallyweren't getting along,
especially after Alex was born,And they had a very on again,
off again relationship And itcame to a point where it seems
as though they had an openrelationship as both were having
(10:13):
extramarital affairs And shereally fell for what union
called the catch.
Now the catch is a fella named.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Tom Finlay.
Is it Tom Finlay?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yes, tom Finlay, the catch of union, very wealthy
fellow, he was the vicepresident of his father's conso
company.
Conso is responsible for thedistribution of manufacturing of
decorations, curtains, rubs,furniture.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And he was only 27 at the time.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Only 27 at the time, very wealthy, very handsome, and
she is working actually as asecretary for Conso And after a
very little time she moves upand becomes the private
secretary of the CEO, coreyFinlay, and he's essentially the
(11:15):
overrun CEO of this company.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
And so that would be Tom's father, correct, okay.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
And so he was actually the one who was
attracted to Susan.
Tom was And around town started.
you know, there was a rumor.
maybe, you know, because of aRocky marriage, she's gonna,
she's gonna get the catch, andthen basically, she has to catch
(11:43):
And they do have a relationshipAnd she has this idea in her
head I'm going to start a brandnew life with the catch.
You know, with Tom I'll be set.
You know, david's really notworth this relationship We're
(12:04):
arguing so much.
And that's when they weretogether And she had Alex
actually when.
Actually okay, so when theyhave Alex they split up.
Smith and her husband, david,actually split up.
And so this would make sense inthe timeline of when she meets
(12:28):
Tom.
You know they're like, they'renot really together, they're not
sleeping in the same place.
And then December 1993 is theofficial time that Susan and Tom
formed this relationship.
In March Tom actually startskeeping a distance from Susan
(12:49):
because David finds out andactually threatens him Leave
Susan alone, she's not yours,she loves me, we have children
together.
And then it wasn't long afterthis where Susan confronts Tom,
says listen, i'm done with David, like it's just you and me,
(13:09):
like I've nothing to do withDavid, i just have my kids.
And at this time, 21, 22 yearsold, she's having a relationship
with Tom Finlay, she's stillkind of sleeping with her
husband and she's still havingthis weird sexual relationship
(13:31):
with her stepfather.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
But we should actually talk about Mr Beverly C
Russell Jr And just to kind of,you know, go with Susan, and
this is, of course, no excusefor what she did, because that
was one of the most horribleacts I think anybody could ever
do.
I can't.
When I was, it was verydifficult to research this case
(13:54):
because of the fact of, like youknow, two big babies strapped
into the backseat of a car.
Like I don't understand whatkind of monster can do that.
But that same monster did loseher father, Harry, by suicide.
She kept a coin, his coincollection and audio tape of his
voice in her drawer all the wayuntil she was in high school.
(14:16):
And then so her mom meets thisdude named Beverly C Russell Jr,
who was a local businessman,And her mother, Linda, married
him in 1979.
And he had three kids of hisown And he actually became
prominent in both the stateRepublican Party and the
(14:37):
Christian Coalition, And she,Susan, had I believe it was two
brothers, and they said thatthis man, Beverly Russell, kept
the family together because theywere falling apart because of
the suicide of their dad.
But at the same time, I am againthis kind of like really
(14:59):
surprised me, And you could tellhow difficult of a time she was
having.
So she tried to commit suicide,as we said, when she was 13.
In high school she was actuallya pretty good student, from
what I was able to find.
She was in the National HonorSociety And she's also voted
Friendliest Girl in her yearbookAnd she seemed, you know, very
(15:20):
attractive.
Mind you, when she did thishorrible, horrible thing she was
only 23.
So I can't imagine having twobabies at 23.
And when you have a totallydisturbed, suicidal individual
who is also still sleeping withher stepfather.
I don't know if you mentionedthis, but she had slept with her
stepfather a month before shedrowned her children.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, i didn't mention it, but yeah, that's
there.
And then did we mention that hewas a stockbroker at the time
he married her mom.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, So he was.
He was wealthy as well, Andthey did go to the police two
times and said that he hadfondled her breasts, Yeah, And
he had put her hand on hisgenitals after she had crawled
into his lap to go to sleep oneevening Now.
So here's my other thing.
When that was and this is nottrying to shame anybody
whatsoever, but for a 16 yearold to be going on to her
(16:15):
stepfather's lap is I'm alreadyseeing that that 16 year old is
in distress, right Like that.
That sounds like somebody who Idon't know if she was childlike
at 16.
But there's sound, there's likeyou know.
Again, she had tried to commitsuicide at 13, but there's
something happening in hermental state for a girl to do
(16:38):
something like that at 16.
And then, of course, he jumpson the opportunity, which is
filthy and disgusting, And helost I think he lost everything.
Finally, after she killed herchildren And it came out that he
was still sleeping with her allthat time later And his
community completely churned onhim.
Her mom divorced him And I mean, quite frankly, he should be
(17:04):
put on the sex offender list asfar as I'm concerned, But which
I don't believe happened.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
But I just don't believe it ever did.
And incidentally, yeah, she's16 when she tells her mom for
the first time what's happeningand the counselor is school
Beverly actually admitted it andnothing was done And he kept
doing it.
And then, at 17, she tells thecounselor this time and then
police are involved But the mom,her mom tells them not to press
(17:37):
charges.
Oh really, yeah.
So multiple attempts to suicideAnd actually one of her
attempts gets her put into apsychiatric treatment center.
And then, going back to whatyou were saying earlier
regarding the case, i know we'rejumping around here, but she
was actually a suspect from thevery start And it was nine days
(18:03):
that Michael and Alex weremissing And then, ninth day that
was, the confession came out.
So, yeah, you know.
So she multiple suicideattempts, as we've discussed,
and actually one of them getsher put into a psychiatric
treatment center.
And as you said earlier notmeaning to jump around, but she
(18:27):
was indeed a suspect from thevery start.
Very odd behavior, very weirdbody language during all the
interviews And she doesn't evenreally mention the children
during her appearances andpleading with America to help
(18:47):
locate these children.
But yeah, the children aremissing for nine days, car
jacked by a black mid band,supposedly, and then eventually
she confesses.
So that's how it ends.
It's basically she gives aconfession.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Now, did they actually start looking in bodies
of water for the kids?
I seem to remember having readsomething like that and I
couldn't find it in my notes.
How did they know?
did she confess and tell themexactly which lake that she had
done this at?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I believe so.
I believe she, she just brokedown and she tells the cop on
the ninth day, please pray forme.
And I have some paper and shewrote everything out.
So in that written confessionit's where I did this, where the
ramp was, and yeah, it was.
(19:45):
That's.
That's how they foundeverything out, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I see, and then so.
and now did we talk about theinfamous letter that Tom had
sent her?
that, they think, is the reasonwhy she killed her children in
the first place?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, well, so They're having this relationship,
despite David's threats.
It's on again, off again.
At a 1994 office party, susanand some other people at this
party are naked in a pool AndTom happens to walk out and see
Susan making out with thehusband of another woman that
(20:22):
works at Conso.
Oh my, he's absolutelydisgusted, he can't believe it
And he breaks up a throw in thespot.
So the hot tub breakup happensOctober 19th Now, if I stand
correct here, yeah, so that'sOctober 19th, right?
Children go missing October25th.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
So we're starting with this.
Oh my God, i got caught.
I didn't mean it.
I love Tom.
And the very next day, on the20th, she leaves a note card for
David to apologize, saying thatshe will always love him.
And then Tom gives her a cardback in person which basically,
basically says I wish I could bewith you, but there are many
(21:11):
things about you which don'tmatch my lifestyle.
And so she basically startsstalking him, sending him
flowers.
He has her removed from theoffice at one point because he's
like enough is enough.
And then that is when this notecomes out And actually I back
up.
Before he writes the letter toher explaining everything and
(21:34):
why they're done, she busts inand says hey, tom, david, my
husband is following me, my lifeis in danger, my stepdad is
molesting me constantly And I'msleeping with your father, oh,
my goodness.
So she lays all of this on himAnd this is when he's like get
(21:56):
out.
Security leads her out.
She comes back and says I'msorry, i'm lying Like I never
actually did that with your dad.
David isn't trying to kick.
And so again she's kicked outof the building Hours later, if
not less.
She basically kills her children.
This is when oh, i'm sorry Shegets a letter from him right
(22:19):
After all this, he sits down andcomposes a letter And it is,
for starters, your children, idon't want children.
And he makes mention about howthey just come from very
different backgrounds, prettymuch snotty, like, look, i'm the
vice president of my dad'scompany, i'm wealthy, you don't
(22:42):
really.
You know, you're kind of poorLike he, you know, very subtly
makes mention of their class,their class differences and the
fact she has children.
And then it's nine hours afterreceiving that letter.
She basically goes ahead withthis murder.
It's absolutely a spiral.
(23:04):
I think it's her not knowinghow to deal with the situation.
Just so much influence from herchildhood.
She sees, you know, in her ownrelationship.
They're not very close, itlooks like they can get a
divorce anytime they want.
Looks like her, her parents,the molestation she.
(23:27):
It becomes normalized.
I mean, when you have acounselor and your mom not
pressing charges, you know itmanifests this like deep
depression.
This is my fault, it's shame,it's everything right.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, my dad killed himself.
He didn't.
I mean, i know there's a lot ofyou know the suicide is
extremely Okay.
That was if she thought thatwas her fault as well.
I never really found why shesaid she committed suicide at 13
.
It sounded like that was beforeshe started getting molested by
(24:04):
her stepdad, so um yeah.
So, but you know, at the sametime, you see, like a very
disturbed individual, um, whosounds it seems like she was
drowning, so that when Tom senther that letter, being like
we're done, but again I don'tknow what she was thinking about
(24:25):
, again kissing and being nakedin a hot tub with somebody
else's husband, there's justobviously, seems like issues
with sexuality that of course,stems from being sexually abused
.
I mean, it's just the?
um, what am I looking for?
I mean it's just, it's so awfulthat it permeates so many parts
(24:46):
of a woman's life.
And then I think that isactually pretty typical to have,
um, sexual abuse victims actout sexually because they have
been taught that to get love andaffection and support from
loved ones is through the sexualacts.
(25:07):
Right, i mean, everything justgets so messed up And this is
already a very vulnerable person.
And then she does somethingthat is probably the worst thing
that anybody could ever do,which is kill her children in a
horrifying way.
Um, it's just yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Uh, what's really interesting also, i feel, is
that she and David startreceiving tons of money, tons of
money and support for rewards,and this continues once she's in
prison.
People are sending her carepackages.
(25:46):
Uh, just very weird how she,you know, once the, the chief or
the sergeant goes on nationaltelevision and says Susan Smith
has just confessed to the murderof her children, there's a huge
, overwhelming gas like no onecan believe it.
She had everyone on her side,despite all her weirdness,
(26:12):
despite all this informationcoming out, despite her being
the first suspect, um, andthere's this weird, uh, just
sort of like, even the way shecan, it's all very matter of
fact, which is, i find, reallykind of.
I I can't tell if this is shemay have manipulated.
(26:33):
She certainly knows how tomanipulate situations And I feel
, you know, that's a learnedbehavior probably.
But uh, she's.
She really, for nine days, isable to capture the heart of
America and the support ofAmerica, uh, with the exception
of the black communities, and uh, it's all matter of fact.
(26:57):
There's never any real urgency.
It's all about herself, it'sall about my.
In fact, when she firstannounces and goes on television
and numerous interviews, uh,she always says my children and
she's saying she's right next toher husband It's never our
children, it's always mychildren.
Uh, my car It was.
(27:19):
You know, this happened to meand she plays the victim.
So you got to wonder how is itpossible that she was?
did she have the intent on onon killing herself with her
children?
I mean, i'm leaning towards no,because I think it was her way
(27:39):
of saying look, i don't havechildren.
What's interesting is that shegot out of the car.
The car gains momentum headsoff the ramp.
She's stood and watched.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
She stood and watched , so she could have done
something even at that pointCalled help and called help,
dove in to unclick her children,Like I mean.
So many things that she couldhave done and she didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
So it went down, submerged slowly Like she.
I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, i'mso sorry.
But uh, so they had to recreate.
They recreated that in court.
Oh, good day.
Okay To show the jury the point.
It was shot in the point ofview of the children.
(28:21):
Oh my God, i can't In the backof the car and they pushed it
into the water and the jury waslike okay.
Okay, That's that's the outthere, and then comes the
penalty.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Did she get the death penalty?
Did she?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well, so here's the thing There was a huge push for
the death penalty, and that'swhere the whole issue of capital
punishment comes in.
Right, yeah, and the Carolina's, how could you possibly do this
?
She's got to get that.
But then there's a notion youknow she spends the rest of her
life in jail.
She's got to sit and live withthis.
So she gets.
This is really crazy.
(28:54):
Uh, i have these, sorry.
So ultimately, she's arrestedfor cancer murder.
And uh, oh, my God, chris, yeah, she's ultimately arrested for
two cancer murder.
And everyone would like her toget the death penalty.
Uh, literally everyone in unionwants her to get the penalty.
(29:17):
And, uh, she, uh, ultimatelytries to declare for her, uh, or
, her defense is that she'smentally unfit to San Chua.
And then, uh, it's determined.
No, she knew absolutely whatshe was doing.
Uh, so, um, she is due.
(29:43):
She's presently 60 years old.
Okay, she's due for parole inNovember 2024.
So I don't believe, i mean,unless it's life with parole.
I've never heard of such athing.
I think, and this is crazy, butI think she only got 30 years
(30:04):
with chance of parole.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Oh wow.
They must have taken in hermental state Absolutely As part
of the sentencing.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I mean, that was the defense's whole thing.
How can you give this woman thedeath penalty?
And clearly she's like out ofher mind.
She has suffered a great deal,so much trauma.
It's this fine line, you know.
It seems like perhaps it wassome sort of I mean, can this be
classified as a crime ofpassion, Like her love?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, I mean, and because her son was only 14
months old.
then there's also a question ofpostpartum depression, like did
she go into postpartumpsychosis?
What did the postpartum periodhave to do with this Cause?
again, she's 23 with two littlebabies and already has tried to
commit suicide, So I have toassume there was something going
(30:59):
on there.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
The other thing is, like you know, later in her life
, like early 20s, she's alsodiagnosed with major depression,
to which her defense said ifthis were taken care of earlier,
perhaps none of this would havehappened, You know if you know
the process of paranoid,schizophrenic, and it's never
treated.
You try to commit suicide, youput into psychiatric treatment
and then you're released.
Your mom isn't very supportiveof you being molested by your
(31:25):
own husband.
You know There are all thesefactors And what's interesting
to note is at this time insociety, banking is a hot topic.
There are a lot of people thatare arguing that it's just, it's
a different.
Spanking was for a differenttime.
Actually, many people areprovided parents and
(31:47):
psychologists alike, andparental counselors, strongly
disagree with spanking.
This is at the time And this isalso precursor to pre-Stephanie
Simmons, a black mother whokilled her two children in a
horrific way, and Norm PatrickHall, also a mother.
(32:08):
Both of them confessed tokilling their children.
So the point being is you havethese three instances in which
eventually they confess.
Maybe that comes from some sortof maternal guilt.
Who knows?
You keep a charade going.
Oh, you know, a dangling wasstill on my baby, but then
eventually the truth comes outAnd in that case I know that was
(32:30):
a bad example.
I was a dango related silverbaby, sorry, but you know, even
she was a suspect and absolutelyno one believed that Australian
woman.
I'm blanking on her name, butso what you do have is you have
women, murderers of theirchildren, coming forward and
taking responsibility.
Her life in jail has been a veryinteresting one.
(32:52):
She's been known to manipulatefellow inmates into getting her
drugs.
She's had sexual relationshipswith prison guards to get
special privileges.
This is what they suspect willcause her not to get her parole
next year, in 2024, because shejust has so many strikes against
(33:15):
her.
And according to ChristineSmith, who was one of her
cellmates, she was completelySusan Smith was completely
delusional and had conversationswith herself as though her
children were alive.
She would speak to Max, it'sgonna be okay.
Oh, hi, alex, right, and it's injail.
She receives more money, she'sreceiving more support And she
(33:40):
basically tries to manipulateher cellmate.
And because the cellmate Susanknowing this, did not have a
mother, someone in the motherrole for her group without a
mother.
So eventually Susan becomes hermother And then she's
transferred to GreenwoodCorrectional Facility to jail,
(34:03):
and everyone agrees and startsto see that, even though she
pretends that she's the head henruling the house, she's
actually very manipulative andpeople start to see all this.
Incidentally, susan volunteersto play with visitors, visitors
children to the jail.
(34:26):
So if you're there to see.
You know your sister who'sincarcerated and you're talking
to the glass.
It's nice to know that SusanSmith is playing with her child
huh in the visiting area.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
That's insane, that is totally, totally insane.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
How about that?
It's as though and then so theyclaim this is her way of giving
to children what she was unableto get to the children she
murdered.
Right, That's horrifying,absolutely horrifying.
I think it's for mostly heracts and vivious deeds behind
(35:06):
bars that she will be deniedparole.
It doesn't seem as though she'schanged at all, and it sounds
as though the same manipulationtactics and lies that she had
pushed after she murdered herand children is still going on,
but now behind bars.
She's manipulating guards,she's manipulating her infello
(35:26):
inmates.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
That is an insane story.
I just can't believe thatthey're actually allowing her to
play with kids and the factthat she seems, I don't want to
say disturbed, but the wholemanipulation and what she's been
doing in jail.
yeah, it definitely doesn'tsound like she's gonna get out
anytime soon, And that is thecase of Susan Smith.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
I gotta throw him in here that there is Memorial to
Michael and Alex at the lake andit is visited quite often.
Oh good, we can't forget howmuch this case really affected
and caused ripples throughoutour society, from accusing a
(36:14):
random black person for doingall this to capital punishment
versus not capital punishment,how we treat our children,
whether or not we was physicaldiscipline or not.
So a lot of this really kind ofaffected our society in a
really interesting way.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, no, i got into.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
so okay, so sociopath , psychotic.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
I can't call it.
I can't call it either, i don'tknow.
I mean, the manipulationdefinitely sounds pretty intense
, but the-.
Do you sense there's anynarcissism involved.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean the manipulation, thefact that she thinks that her
(37:06):
kids are so potentially alive.
I mean it seems kind of like apsychotic break, if you hear it
that way, that she's stilltalking to her kids.
I'm surprised she hasn't triedto commit suicide again.
Honestly.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Now, that's the thing , That's my whole thing.
If you really you know and shedid, she attempted before and
she wanted to die right,According to her story, with her
children.
No suicide attempts in jail.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, which is really really odd, she wants parole.
She wants parole, which isagain like what?
No, you don't get to get out ofjail for that.
Yeah, that's a crazy case Anddisturbing and also, you know
it's a disturbed individual whoneeded help And if she had
gotten help the proper help andyou know, maybe this wouldn't
(37:54):
have happened.
But yeah, she turned out to bea monster who did an awful.
Awful.
I mean I can't, i can't.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I can't even with the babies.
I could tell you something verygraphic, but I won't.
Or should I?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I don't know, no no, I don't think we need graphic.
Okay, sorry.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
But it is, i was gonna say it's.
It all comes back to gettinghelp, like I feel like a lot of
the cases from Columbine toAngela Simpson, all these cases
that we've discussed mostrecently, and in general, if
only they received some mentalhealth, yeah, i feel it.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Mental health help.
Mental health help.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Right Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, yeah, if somebody could have noticed.
And I mean, granted, our lastcase, she was in a mental
institute, but they let her out.
So, yeah, we definitely havesome issues with mental health
stuff in this country and how,and it even and now it crosses
over to today with regards toguns.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, we need to have these background checks.
There's no reason why it'sillegal for a convict to have a
gun, so it's just these.
There's gotta be more attention.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
You know it's nice.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
May is mental health care awareness month, but what's
?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
that.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, we definitely need just much more access to it
, and I mean this was thenineties and I know that mental
health wasn't really talkedabout back then, so I know it's
much more in the forefront nowAnd yet we still have so far to
go with that, and especiallywith women needing to get extra
help after they have babiesbecause it's overwhelming and
the hormones are crazy andthere's postpartum depression,
(39:38):
is is such a thing.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Um, and then you go into that, not getting along
with your partner at all, yeah,You know, and also sleeping with
your stepfather.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Wow, To that day like just no, just just no.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I feel her certain stance is created a monster.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
I think it's just that.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Um, so, yeah, so that was thefun case, not really.
It was terrible, awful of SusanSmith and uh, join us next week
.
I don't know if we're going tobe doing another female case,
but we will.
Uh, yeah, we'll see what we got.
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Next week, hopefully it'll be at a racquetball court.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Yeah right, yeah right, okay, I'm gonna hear.
Okay, all right, all right, seeyou guys next week.
This episode was sponsored bythe Creek killer, book one in
(40:45):
the Harriet Harper thrillerseries written by me, dominica
best.
What would you do if you read?
the police found your body in acreek?
Find out in the creek killeravailable on Amazon.
Thank you for joining me andlistening to this episode.
If you like my show, pleasegive me a rating and review.
It helps other listeners findthis podcast.
(41:06):
Follow.
Dominica best presents thedeviant mind.
wherever you listen to yourpodcasts, visit the best
storytelling networkcom whereyou'll find show notes, my books
, links to social media and muchmore.
Join my Patreon for specialsubscriber perks, like two extra
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(41:31):
forward slash the deviant mindpodcast until next time.
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