August 30, 2023 • 52 mins
Brace yourselves as Chris and Dominika present the crazy saga of Lori Vallow Daybell, the doomsday mom who killed her kids, and her husband and was in cahoots to kill her lover's wife as well. We unravel the convoluted story of Lori and her bizarre relationships with an array of characters.
From a fanatical belief system, to a fixation on spiritual visions, to Lori's unusual courtship with Chad Daybell, supposed prophet, god and most likely leader of the doomsday cult, born out of a religious conference. This story has it all.
Hosted by Dominika Best and Christopher Gordon.
Visit thebeststorytellingnetwork.com where you’ll find show notes, my books, links to sources for this episode, social media and much more.
https://www.patreon.com/thedeviantmindpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hey everybody, welcome to the Deviant Mind.
This is Dominica.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
And this is Chris.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
And today we have the insane case of Lori Balodebel,
which is completely nutty.
We were having a conversationright before we started
recording and we're like, oh mygosh, we have got to get this
(00:58):
recorded because of the fact wehave a lot of ideas, because
this case is so strange, like somany different players in it,
the timeline spans years, thekids are well, we're going to go
over the main players, but andwe are not sure because she's so
insane but she knows exactlywhat she's doing, but she
(01:21):
doesn't think that murdering herchildren was bad because
they're having such a great timein the afterlife, which goes
back to the fact that she'scompletely nuts.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I also just wanted to point out that in our past few
episodes we've been focusing onfemale killers and I've noticed
and it's probably like a dovemoment but females tend to kill
those they love, those they know, whereas men are more prone to
just kill at random people theydon't know.
(01:55):
So I find that very interesting.
You know, we have the femaleauthors who killed their
husbands.
We have this case who kills thechildren?
It's, it's, you'll, you'llrarely.
I mean even more in us new forJohns.
I mean, I just find it veryinteresting that there's always
some sort of relationship that'sinvolved in a woman who murders
(02:16):
, even though Amelia Dyer knewthe people who dropped off the
babies and the babies.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Right, so I find that really interesting, Right?
No, exactly, exactly.
And I mean they do say thatwomen do tend to marry to kill,
not marry to kill for also loveand money, and this has all the
aspects of that.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I was just laughing because it made me think of Mary
sex kill.
Oh right, right exactly Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So this is a case of a bunch of Mormons to, although
it looks like it was a cult thatwas outside of the Mormon faith
.
That was created by Chaddaybell and he had been
publishing books and actuallywriting both religious and post
(03:10):
apocalyptic books under hiscompany called Spring Creek Book
Company back in March 9th 1990.
And both him and his wife Tammythey were married in Manti,
utah, lived in Springfield, utah, and that's when their whole
thing started, so 1990, long,long time ago and he had these
(03:35):
post apocalyptic leanings wayback then.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Which were also podcasts.
And then we got to point outprior to all this he was a grave
digger.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of course he was.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You know that he served as a grave digger.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I did not know that, which is so, because there's
like a ton of players in here.
I wanted to kind of go throughand give you kind of the
constellation of people.
So we have Lori Vallow Daybell,who, per her trial just ended
several months ago.
(04:13):
She is in jail for the murderof her adopted son, joseph JJ
Vallow, and her daughter from aprevious marriage, kylie Ryan.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So and and Tammy Daybell.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, tammy, yes, tammy Daybell.
So Chad Daybell was married toTammy Daybell.
They also had five kids.
Lori had a brother, alex Cox,who's going to figure
prominently in this case.
He was her brother and he had agirlfriend that became his wife
(04:51):
, named Zuluma Pestanus,probably mispronounced that, and
she becomes integral to Lori'strial.
Now Lori also has a niece namedMelanie Pavlowski, who was
married and then divorced toBrandon Boudreau.
They also figure prominently inthis case.
(05:14):
Her ex-husband, joseph Ryan,was the father of Kylie Ryan,
and he died of a supposed heartattack in 2018.
Now Lori also had a son from aprevious marriage because she
had been married five timesnamed Kobe Ryan, and now Charles
(05:38):
Vallow, who is a person that,as you will find out, was killed
by Lori's brother Alex.
He was her fourth husband andJoseph J J Vallow was actually
his, so Kay Woodcock isCharles's sister.
Kay Woodcock is the biologicalgrandma of Joseph J J Vallow,
(06:05):
and Joseph J J Vallow we'll justcall him J J, because that's
how he was known was an autisticboy whose parents didn't feel
that they would be able to takecare of him properly, and so
Charles, lori's fourth husband.
They agreed to take him in andadopt him, so a condition of the
(06:34):
adoption was that the Woodcockswould remain in J J's life, so
within a this was back whenCharles and Lori were living in
Arizona.
So the Woodcocks, they move toArizona to be close to him.
So that is kind of the mainfamily.
(06:58):
And then we have Melanie Gibb,who also is prominent in this
case, and she is Lori's friendand she actually testifies
against Lori as far as what inthe world happened to her going
into this.
So I didn't find that muchabout JJ and Tylee.
(07:24):
I do have some information aboutLori, however.
She was born Lori Noreen Cox onJune 26, 1973 in San Bernardino
, california, and she wasmarried for the first time in
1992, at 19 years old, to herhigh school sweetheart, nelson
Yanes.
But they divorced prettyquickly after and she was then
(07:50):
married to William Lagiowa in1995, and that's where her son,
colby Ryan, was conceived in,but they were literally only
married for like a year and thenher third husband, joseph Ryan.
She married in 2001,.
They divorced in 2004, andthat's Tylee's dad and there was
(08:16):
a recording.
Supposedly he died in 2018 of anapparent heart attack, but
there was a recording that theyfound during the trial saying
that, quote this is Lori saying,quote I went through a lot of
years of this kind of hard stuffand I was going to murder him.
I was going to kill him likethe scripture says, like Nephi
killed just to stop the pain andto stop him from coming after
(08:37):
me and to stop him coming aftermy children.
End quote.
But they were not able to findany evidence that she actually
did kill him.
Now, supposedly her sister,which I don't think I mentioned
in our little biographies ofpeople her name is Summer
(09:00):
Schifflet, summer Cox Schiffletsaid that her sister was totally
okay before 2018, and she wasjust a devout LDS member, so a
devout Mormon, and everythingwas great until 2018.
But seeing as there'srecordings saying that she's
going to murder her husband dueto scriptures, I kind of
(09:21):
questioned that and maybe hersister wasn't seeing everything
that she could find.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I wanted to back up a little and also point out that
she grew up with parents whowere Mormon.
She went to Mormon church a lot, which they do, and her mom,
janice, was kind of.
It was hard when you saw her toeven tell that she was a Mormon
, because by any stretch of themeaning she wasn't really.
(09:52):
She dressed really flashy,apparently wearing tight clothes
, and her persona was not veryquote unquote Mormon-like.
So I think, that may have had aneffect on a young Lori seem
like I'm Mormon, I'm religious,but hey, I got it.
I have the looks.
Later on, as I'm sure we'll getinto, she's an appagent, she's
(10:15):
on television so, and she's abeautician which we can also get
into.
But so I think that there arethings from her childhood that
indicate this sort of mixturebetween religion and looking
good.
You know, you wanna look goodfor God, you wanna look good in
general for perhaps latermeeting a prophet.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Right, well, and then also, it's interesting that you
mentioned that, becausesupposedly her sister, summer,
says that she never worked.
She was a hairdresser for likea short little bit, but when she
started getting married, thatwas it.
The husband worked and she wasjust out and about.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I believe Chad and Charles, and maybe the third
husband, were supportive of herto a point where they helped her
open a home salon.
So she worked out of her houseand had a lot of clients.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Oh, that's interesting.
So I'm kind of curious because,like that, her Summer said that
on record in her trial.
So it's kind of interesting theway stories change, right
Because of talking about that?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, they've even known.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
she may not even know that was a thing Perhaps, and
because there was this thingabout her killing the kids so
she could take their benefits,because she's always hard up for
cash.
That was kind of the thrust ofthe argument of why she killed
the children, Although, I mean,I personally think she killed
them because she thought theywere the dark souls, but we're
(11:47):
gonna get into that.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
We'll get into that.
And also let's throw in thefact that her other sister,
stacy, passed away with diabetesand she spoke with her every
night, like when she passed shewould be overheard speaking to
her sister.
And then when she has Tylee,she's convinced that Stacy was
(12:08):
reincarnated through.
Stacy was in Tylee's body orspirit.
Stacy actually wound up nottaking her meds for diabetes, so
it was kind of like this paththat she chose, where she just
didn't care, probably the bestthing.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, it's interesting because I was also
reading that she claimed thatshe had a life and death
experience when actually givingbirth to Tylee yes, that her
sister came to her at that pointand that's when she realized
she was able to speak to thedead and to the people who had
passed on yeah, and that shefelt that she had a connection
(12:46):
to the world of the dead afterthat.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Right, yeah.
So I mean, these are basically,these are the foundations, I
feel, that lead up to theideology that she would come to
love and adopt.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yes.
So the Kauai Hawaii kind ofstarts early in the story.
So we're back in 2014.
They adopt JJ Valo.
They also have Tylee with them.
They also have Colby with themNow, when Tylee was born.
This is where Lori's niece,melanie Palosky, comes into the
(13:24):
story.
She marries Brandon Bedro.
They have four children andBrandon is so close with Lori's
family that he baptizes Tyleeinto the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, andMelanie is important because she
is the one that gets into thecult with Lori, as we find out
later.
So in 2014, the Valos theymoved to Kauai Hawaii.
(13:50):
They have a business there andat this point, larry Woodcock,
who is Kay Woodcock's husband.
They don't visit JJ asfrequently as before in Arizona.
They just do now phone andFaceTime and after a bit, the
Valos they move back to Arizonaand Kay and Larry are back in
(14:13):
JJ's life, which makes them veryhappy.
Kay and Larry are the peoplewho actually report JJ and Tylee
missing, so they're veryimportant to the story.
So at this point, so we're gonnacheck in with Chad and Tammy.
(14:33):
They moved to Salem, idaho, acity just outside of Rexburg,
with their five kids, tammy'sworking as a school librarian
and at this point Lori startsreading his religious books,
meaning Chad Daybells, and hisbooks focus on radical theories
(14:55):
of spirituality surrounding theend of the world, hence the
post-apocalyptic doomsday secondcoming of Christ after a big
war happens.
I'm assuming this is connectedto the Christianity belief that
is in scriptures where I think alarge part of like born-again's
(15:18):
, maybe of the left behind theleft behind series, that's
really big.
So essentially, when I thinkthe Jews repopulate Israel,
there's a great war and that'swhen the second coming of Christ
happens and that's when thepros and the holy land open up.
Well, yeah, and that's when theapocalypse happens, and so the
(15:41):
people who are true believers ofChrist get to stay on earth and
everybody else disappears.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So I think I know she had a great relationship with
her children and even though JJwas they deemed the difficult
child because of his autism, sheapparently was fantastic with
not only JJ but her otherchildren.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, she was called Super Mom.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Super Mom, but all of her relationships with friends
and family and her own childrenreally started to change, as
she's reading Chad's books.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Right, which makes sense because there's a whole
thing about dark souls.
So what's interesting iseverything starts going really
by the wayside in 2018 for thislarge extended family.
Tylee's father, joseph Ryan, aswe said, dies and it is ruled a
heart attack.
And then, in the fall of 2018,laurie and Melanie start
(16:38):
attending meetings not sponsoredby the Mormon church and their
spouses do not attend.
And Melanie reportedly toldBrandon, her husband, that the
firesides were quote her thingand it was very clear he was not
welcome to come.
Now these fireside chats arecentered around Chad Debell's
(16:59):
religious books of theapocalypse and you know going
that the world was going to endsoon and what Brandon said.
It was interesting that Melanie, when he married her, was not
very religious, but then shestarted getting super passionate
about going to church andcertain ideas of the church that
(17:20):
were going towards this, andthe end of the world is coming
very soon.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And now we're going to see more female followers
than male followers.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, which is fascinating I find.
So this is October 26, 2018.
Lori and Chad Daybell meet at areligious conference in St
George and Lori's friend,melanie Gibb, like we spoke
about, said that they werereally super flirty when they
(17:51):
met and they talked about a lotof beliefs they shared.
And I can imagine, like Lorihas been reading Chad books for
years, all of a sudden she getsto meet him as a prophet and can
you imagine like the I couldimagine hero worship and Lori's
a back then kind of a, I guess,attractive woman of for her age.
(18:13):
So, and supposedly, reportedly,chad tells Lori that they had
been married in a previous life.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
James and.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Alana, james and Alana that's right, james and
Alana.
And Lori said she totallybelieved it, and so, because
we're in 2018, we get to have alot of cell phone data that came
out in trial, and so, of course, we have the first evidence of
Lori creating a contact for Chadin her phone called Bishop
(18:47):
Shumway, and this is the firstelectronic evidence of their
interactions.
It's October 28th 2018.
So I guess probably still atthe religious conference in St
George, and so things heat upvery, very quickly.
So by November, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Chad convinces her that she was going to help lead
society during Coombs Day.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Of course, because now I mean it's so perfect
because he's like oh, you'regoing to be my right hand person
, you're my woman, we've beenmarried before.
And I guess this is thequestion we were talking about
before we got on the phone callis is Lori a victim of Chad
Daybell or is she fully a fullparticipant in this craziness?
(19:34):
So within a couple of weeksChad is back in Arizona for
another conference and accordingto Melanie Gibb, who remember
is oh my God, I just had like aCOVID brain fart Lori, not Joe.
Okay, lori's house, sheactually no, I'm sorry.
(20:00):
Melanie Gibb is Lori's friendand tells the court and papers
and reporters that actually Chadstayed at Lori Lori's house as
Charles was out of town.
Charles is Lori's currenthusband.
Yeah, before.
So Gibb said she believed itwas a hookup and that weekend
(20:23):
Lori told her friend Melaniethat her and Chad were sealed
together by Maroney and JesusChrist in the LDS temple and
that the relationship ofmultiple lives were reunited.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
This is also not too long before she realizes that
there's a demon inside of herhusband, charles, a demon by the
name of Ned Schneider who's outto kill her, and she is just
terrified of him.
And then, in January 2019,charles actually calls a police,
(20:57):
afraid of Lori, and it's justlike she's threatened my life.
I just don't feel safe.
Are the kids in the house?
He says yes, I don't know whatto do.
He decides to change his lifeinsurance policy from all going
to Lori to his grandmother, andhe wanted to divorce her because
he started finding out aboutthis whole Chad religious affair
(21:20):
.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Because, I mean, things went cookie, cookie pans
like very, very, very quickly.
So we're now in December, soonly a couple weeks later, chad
and Lori make their firstappearance together on the
preparing a people podcastcalled time to warrior up Time
(21:45):
to warrior up.
I can only imagine what that'sabout.
I'm assuming, I believe thepodcast has since been removed
and disassociated itself fromthe couple, so I'm assuming it
was a Mormon podcast aboutconversion, because the Mormons
are very big into convertingpeople, which is why they send
out missionaries.
(22:06):
For two years, you have a.
All the men go out on missions.
I don't know if women get to dothat as well, but they go out
for two years into the world andtheir mission is to convert as
many people as possible.
I remember back in I don't knowif they do this anymore, but
they would go house to housewhen I lived in Connecticut and
(22:26):
they would ask if they couldcome inside and talk to you
about the teachings of JesusChrist and a lot of day Saints.
Yeah, it was pretty hardcore.
Anyway, I was going to hope aswitnesses.
Oh, you had to hope aswitnesses, yeah.
So, strangely enough, brandonBoudreau, which is the husband
(22:51):
of her niece, melanie, said thatthe last Christmas he spent
with the family was with Charlesand Lori and he said everything
felt different and that Brandonsaid the relationships are not
very close.
Melanie Gibb and her familywere there and Charles and Lori
seemed to be really out in theon the out denounce.
Now, this was also around thesame time that Lori told her
(23:14):
friend Melanie that she had adream that Charles was in a car
accident and that he wouldn't behome by January 1, 2019.
So she's like hey, here'sChristmas time.
I'm going to tell you that myhusband's going to be dead in
six days.
Charles was never in anaccident and when Melanie asked
Lori what happened, she saidquote he didn't because Satan
(23:35):
interfered with the plan, andquote always.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I mean Satan's always interfering with things.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, killing her husband so she can be with her
lover.
Cool, cool, cool, yeah, awesome, so, um.
So we get to January 2019,husband still alive and Charles
tells Brandon, which is againthe husband of niece Melanie,
that Lori was, strangely enough,accusing him of infidelity and
(24:05):
claiming that Charles was takenover by an evil spirit and that
they needed to perform castingsto get it out of him.
And throughout the next severalmonths, charles would allegedly
be taken over by three to fourdifferent evil spirits that they
would need to cast out, andLori later.
This has started referring topeople who had spirits in them
as zombies.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And also, don't forget, one of the spirits was
Ned Schneider.
I mean, I just don't know, andyou know, chad and Lori are once
James and Elena and a pet.
It's amazing that they come upwith these like normal names.
I know, right, yeah, it's justso.
She really was so head overheels and at this time I think
(24:51):
her own knowing that Charleswants to divorce her, it's
starting to occur to her likethis isn't going to work out.
I can't even have him in mylife.
But also, she's fully aware ofhis life insurance policy.
Yeah, she still assumes thather name is on there and she
wants that money.
So chatter.
Interestingly enough, chadwould have the people come over
(25:14):
and you know a small group inthe living room, and again, it
was mostly female, you know.
And Alex Cox, her brother, wasactually very close to Chad as
well, like he would attend thesemeetings and he was kind of
like the right hand man.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Mm, hmm, and I see, which, again, is kind of nuts
Now.
So Charles at this point islike, oh my God, my wife's
insane.
So there is actually bodycamera footage from Arizona
police department showingCharles begging Lori to receive
mental health at CommunityBridges and Community Bridges
(25:49):
said, no, she's not crazy, sowe're just going to let her go.
And this was around the timethat police found Chad on his
because, again, this is 2019 nowand there are computer records
that Chad searched.
Quote Ned Schneider, louisianaobituary 1997, and quote so Chad
(26:11):
was taking names of dead peopleand claiming that that's the
demon that was possessingCharles.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I need to back something up here and let
everyone know that Lori was tookprior to meeting Chad.
She's still a Mormon, was toldby God you have to be on real
fortune.
So she actually was acontestant no joke on real
fortune and she actually wonmoney and she said it was
because of the Grace of Godtelling her to go that she was
(26:41):
able to get.
I think she won $500,000.
Then he flash forward and she'scompeting in a beauty pageant.
It's for Mrs Hayes County inTexas and she's a finalist but
doesn't win.
So again the flashes of.
You know I may be religious,but check me out.
You know, like, hey, I'm still.
(27:02):
You know this vibrant, sexywoman.
You know it's so interesting.
Again, this dichotomy betweenreligion was acceptable, what's
not?
And then this kind of, againprobably coming from her mom,
but she's on real fortune.
It just reminds me of a.
You know, we all remember thedating show killer.
Oh yeah, he's a contestant.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Oh, which is again.
I mean I think there is like wewere talking about narcissistic
tendencies in this.
Well, and I actually.
So Charles files for divorcefrom Laurie and I found the
court documents and I just haveto read one of these excerpts
(27:47):
from the court documents thatthey were filed by Charles
Vallow's attorney on February15th 2019, because it just shows
how completely insane thiswoman has gone.
So this is an excerpt from thecourt documents.
Mother Laurie Vallow hasrecently become infatuated, at
times obsessive, aboutnear-death experiences and
(28:08):
spiritual visions.
Mother has told father this isCharles Vallow, that she is
sealed, eternally married to theancient Book of Mormon, prophet
Moroni, and that she has livednumerous lives on numerous
planets prior to this currentlife.
Mother also believes that shewas married to James the Just in
a past life and also lived asMary French in the 1800s, who
(28:30):
was Joseph Smith Jr's naturalgrandmother.
Mother has also informed fatherthat she is a translated being
who cannot taste death, sent byGod to lead the 144,000 into the
millennium.
Mother believes this is againLaurie, that she is receiving
spiritual revelations andvisions to help her gather and
(28:50):
prepare those chosen to live inthe New Jerusalem after the
Great War, as prophesied in theBook of Revelations and on
January 29th 2019, during aphone conversation between the
parties, which is Laurie andCharles, and after their
physical separation, lauriemother informed father Charles
that she was a God assigned tocarry out the work of the
(29:12):
144,000 at Christ's secondcoming in July 2020 and that if
father got in her way of hermission, she would murder him.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, it's all under you know.
Hey, listen, when God tells youto do something and you send a
person to receive one a person,you got to do what you got to do
?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yes, but the crazy thing is is that he halted the
divorce proceedings and toldLaurie he wanted to make the
marriage work.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes and yeah, that's really quite surprising.
I mean a case of the abusedright going back to the abuser
and children boy and his mom is,if you just want to hop into it
is pretty crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Right, I just I mean, and right after this, by the
way, laurie disappears.
So Charles contacts JJ'sgrandmother, kay, because Laurie
has left, he doesn't know whereshe went and he needs for Kay,
which is his sister, to takecare of JJ while Laurie is
(30:23):
missing, because Charles neededto work.
So Kay and JJ moved back andforth between Arizona and
Louisiana during the February toMarch 2019 because nobody
actually knew where Laurie was,and finally, eventually and this
(30:44):
was around the time when heasked his sister to become his
main beneficiary because, by theway, this is a one million
dollar life insurance policy no,charles is, it's Kay's sister.
She is the grandmother of JJ.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Okay, yeah, so he, yeah, he moves Laurie and
Patural.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
yes, and so Charles and JJ do eventually move to
Houston, texas, because it'scloser to Kay's home in
Louisiana, and according to Kay,which is again Charles's sister
, laurie left her husband andchild for a total of 58 days
during this period, and it waslater discovered that Laurie was
in Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Hawaii is a place that keeps coming up.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
in this case, yes, exactly, and so things start
getting a little funky nowbetween Laurie and her brother
Cox.
Yeah, on March 2019, there wasa joint bank account and it was
used to purchase a round tripflight for Chad from Idaho Falls
(31:51):
to Mesa.
There, chad and Laurie'srelationship is super heating up
between this time and March,but then, all of a sudden, in
April, laurie moves back toTexas to live with Charles and
JJ and meanwhile, as she's moved, like living with Charles, chad
(32:16):
is looking for wedding ringsmade out of malachite for her
and Laurie, so they're planningto get married.
Meanwhile, laurie's back inTexas with Charles and Charles
is halting the divorceproceedings, which is like
that's interesting.
(32:36):
So on May 17th, jj visited A andher husband, larry, the
Woodcocks in Louisiana for theweekend.
That was his birthday and thatwas the last time the Woodcocks
saw JJ in person, which was May17th 2019.
On May 29th, laurie and ZulemaPastines which is, if you
(33:01):
remember, the girlfriend thenshe will become the wife of her
brother, alex Cox.
So they're having aconversation now about Charles's
demons.
So she's still convinced thatCharles has demons within him
and wants to kill her.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
That's one of her fears.
She tells Alex is man.
I really think he's going toshoot me.
And Alex was her protector.
I mean, he listened to Chad aswell, so he believed her.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, he believed her and supposedly his other sister
, summer, said that actuallyAlex had had a traumatic brain
injury and that his logic wasthat of a 16 year old.
Yeah, so these people movearound all the damn time.
(33:50):
So on June 2019, laurie andCharles moved to Chandler,
arizona, and at this point she'sLaurie's already telling her
bestie, melanie Gibb, that Tileywent dark sometime between
February and June 2019.
Now, dark is when these peoplein this cult believe that a
(34:18):
demon takes over somebody's soul.
So Melanie is also.
You know, melanie is the niecewho is also in the cult with
Laurie.
She and her husband, brandondecide to get a divorce and
Brandon claimed that Melanie wasin the same cult as Laurie and
(34:39):
she told her then husbandBrandon that she received
revelations from God that shewasn't safe at the house with
him and she was trying toestablish visitation rights with
her children.
But they wanted a divorcebecause Brandon was not safe.
And Around the same time,charles tells Laurie that he's
(35:02):
going to Idaho to talk to TammyDaybell about Laurie and Chad's
affair because he had alreadyconfronted Laurie about it and
he was like I'm not having this.
And unfortunately, on July 11th2019, laurie's brother, alex,
shoots and kills Charles.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
So Charles goes over to the house to pick up JJ and
bring him to school and Alexactually calls 911 after he
shoots Charles and he claimsthat it was out of self-defense.
He was witness to Charlesforcibly beating Laurie.
(35:44):
It really enraged him, got upand shot him and in the same cop
cam they start interviewingLaurie and there's just no
remorse.
There's no remorse.
She actually makes jokes aboutlike boy.
I can't believe what theneighbors must be thinking.
It just means nothing to her.
And then, days after the factshe and Chad are starting to
(36:05):
sext, they're sending reallysteamy texts to one another.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Well, on top of everything else, it comes out
that Alex Cox was, as youmentioned, designated as
Laurie's protector by Chad in apatriarchal blessing, because I
remember, chad is the prophet ofthis whole little gang of
(36:29):
messed up people and killers.
And the Rexburg policedetective said that the crime
scene was really odd, that thestory didn't quite make sense,
because Cox told them that heshot Charles twice in the chest
while they were standing, butbecause of the bullets location,
the second shot was fired whenCharles was already on the
(36:50):
ground and there was very littleblood, very little blood
splatter, and supposedly Alexclaimed that he had given
Charles CPR after he shot him,but there was absolutely no
injuries or impressions onCharles' chest.
There would have been moreblood if that happened, yeah,
(37:11):
and on him probably.
Yeah, exactly Now there was GPSdata confirming that Laurie had
been at Burger King and atWalgreens, but looks like she
wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Which is I'm going to play later too, because I
believe, if I'm saying correcthere, when you know well, we'll
get to it.
But when the day comes, whenthe children and Tammy, she's
apparently not there either,she's like not at the scenes of
the crime, which basically pointat Chad.
(37:51):
And then, at this point,earlier and later, point to Alex
.
Alex was kind of like the do-it, the fixer, the hitman, yeah
yeah, he was the hitman.
And what's crazy is so sheeventually finds out that
Charles has one million dollarpolicy.
You know, went to K and then hestarts texting Chad frantically
Like I am so upset, I can'tbelieve that he took me off.
(38:14):
You know I'm not thebeneficiary, so that was huge
for her Right.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well, that also.
And then you wonder if I meanthere's a reason for his murder,
like a let's get rid of myhusband so I can be with Chad,
and then also let's get rid ofmy husband so I can get the one
million dollar policy.
And I'm not the one who did it.
So Dan Dott doesn't mess up mebeing the beneficiary of the
policy which, of course, had youknow he had already fixed.
(38:41):
Now, according to Melanie,Laurie and Chad were super,
super happy and they werecommunicating multiple times a
day.
Laurie had two to three cellphones, one which was dedicated
to communications with Chad.
They would meet at hotels, theywere intimate and Laurie said
(39:02):
everything is totally goodbecause this is God's will,
because they've been married inmultiple lives and they have a
mission together.
Yeah, Just meant to be.
And I'm kind of wondering.
So we've been talking for about40 minutes.
Do we want to make this a twoparter?
And because there's more deathscoming.
There's the kids deaths, butthere's also Tammy's death.
(39:24):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, I agree to make this two parter.
Maybe just a couple more things, maybe even just getting into
the victims, as we usually doGet into that later.
I just wanted to point out thatnot after, not long after the
Charles murder, alex oh she,laurie and the kids move closer
(39:48):
to Chad and then Alex moves intothe same building complex that
Laurie's in.
So they're all like right there, right?
But yeah, I think yeah, let'sdive into the victims and then
we can pick up to the nextepisode on how they became the
victims.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Okay, and which victims would you want to talk
about?
The kids, the kids in Tammy, oh, tammy, yes, well, I you know.
It was interesting because, asI was doing a lot of research,
like I know, it was interestingbecause Tiley was 16, but then
she had her own Jeep and she hadthis life.
(40:24):
But when I was looking forinformation on her, I didn't
really find that much.
And I'm usually no on Tiley.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Oh, on Tiley, yeah, she was basically, you know, a
really funny girl, very livelyand loving, and was just so
excited when JJ into their livesand she basically really became
more of a mother figure.
I feel I did a lot, a lot forJJ than perhaps Lori, just in
(40:58):
that role of mother, like I feltlike she was more motherly
towards JJ.
Listen, by all accounts, loriwas also a fantastic mother, but
Taley was JJ's go to andthere's even video footage of
Lori.
We see Taley holding a littleJJ and Lori says something like
(41:20):
oh, my babies Switch.
Tiley says something to thefact like this is my baby.
So there was a really closeattachment to them, really,
really young, cut short, likethat school, from what I
understand.
And then, yeah, she had, Ithink, like, as her mom started
going off the deep end, she goesdark.
(41:40):
You know, it's just like thisweird, not dark in the way that
she has these evil spirits, butshe herself mentally is just
like so confused Her.
You know the passing of her.
You know these ex-husbands.
She doesn't get it.
You know she's just kind ofbouncing around.
You're here now.
You're there now.
You're just missing.
Now you're going to stay withthem.
(42:00):
Now your brother's going to gostay with them.
You're here, I mean.
I think at some point she justkind of shut off and perhaps
became an issue.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
But I also did see that she did not like Chad Debel
, and Chad Debel actuallymentions that as one of the
reasons why she went dark.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Wow, I didn't know that, yeah.
So she probably didn't want tolie.
She probably didn't want to lie.
All like craziness.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, which again is like well, of course not because
you're crazy and she knows thatshe's obviously a smart kid and
she was, I guess, 17 at thetime of her disappearance.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
JJ was seven.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, and JJ, you know, by all accounts he was
just like a kid, sometimes haddifficult times.
Again, he was autistic, but itseemed like he was relatively
high functioning, although therewere reports that he would have
episodes that Laurie sometimesfound difficult to deal with,
(43:12):
you know.
But what's fascinating is thata lot of family members came out
being like, well, if youcouldn't take care of him, we
would have taken care of him.
Like there was no reason youneeded to kill him.
I mean, these people have likelarge, extended families.
She had a large family withlots of kids and I mean,
(43:35):
obviously there's never anyreason for anybody to ever kill
anybody.
But what they were saying isthat if you were having a
hardship we would have helpedyou.
But, like we had discussedbefore, because Laurie believes
she can speak to the dead, Imean in her bizarre statement
before sentencing she says sheknows her kids are okay.
(43:55):
She totally talked to them inthe afterlife.
They're having a great time,they're having a better life.
Yeah, they had here.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Oh, let's throw this in there.
Two of her husbands out of thefive bought her full length
mirrors because at night shewould dance to religious music
for hours.
And right now in jail inmatessay that she could be doing the
same thing, like she just danceslate at night in her cell.
So that's really kind of cookie.
(44:23):
I mean I can't imagine if I'mJJ or Tylee walking into my mom
doing this kind of likereligious dance, just sort of
religious.
But it's interesting to knowthat her husband was supportive
and like, hey, here's a mirrorfor you to do your you know your
Mormon dance and get yourdoomsday dances.
Jj was, yes, definitely hadissues, but apparently was again
(44:46):
a really sweet kid, loved byeveryone he came into contact
with and you know as difficultas he was, I'm sure for her
again there were lots of momentsof caring where she did do a
good job with him.
I mean, you know, to bring anadopted child into any family I
would imagine is really hard andit's bumpy, you know, to begin
(45:08):
with, but yeah, it's just wow.
I just it's just soheartbreaking.
And then Tammy married him solong with Chad, like it's like a
loving mother, like dideverything for her children,
everything for Chad.
You know, I put from what Iunderstand she was supportive of
(45:29):
his.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Well, I mean she was, she actually is.
She was born in Pasadena,california, on May 470.
And I loved Disneyland that.
She was a gifted, giftedstudent.
She was real creative.
She loved putting on familyshows that she produced and
directed.
She had a great, really happychildhood.
(45:53):
When she was 13 the family movedto Springville, utah, where she
was also an excellent student.
She played the drums and theclarinet in the Springville High
School Band.
She was the yearbook editor hersenior year.
She was kind, had a reallyfriendly smile, loved books and
loved reading.
And she met Chad Dabill atBrigham Young University her
(46:19):
freshman year.
They fell in love and weremarried March 9th 1990.
And and Tammy looks like shedropped out and was working as a
secretary for Springville'sParks Department.
She had a real interest infamily history.
She submitted more than 100,000names for temple ordinance work
(46:43):
.
That means but that's probablysomething from Mormon stuff.
She became a full timehomemaker after Chad graduated
and took a job in Ogden, utah.
Their family grew very quickly.
You know they had five kids.
She was bringing her kids tothe public library, really tried
(47:05):
to get to develop a passion forreading and she became a
computer teacher at Art CityElementary and supposedly she
was kind of a computer genius,her family said, who had a
talent for graphic arts and in2004 she and Chad, like we spoke
about, founded spring Creekbook company and she actually
(47:25):
wore many hats and the companyshe was the chief financial
officer and she also designedthe book covers.
Her family said that she wasthe true backbone of the company
and she produced dozens ofbooks over the years Into the
family.
I mean backbone of that familyyeah, backbone of the family and
of the company she.
(47:46):
In 2015, they moved to Salem,idaho, and she became the
assistant librarian at MadisonMiddle School and then she later
became the librarian at CentralElementary School in Sugar City
, idaho, and she was treasuredand loved and she was very big
into the church she did.
She was a stakes girl campdirector, young women presidents
(48:08):
.
She was loved by everybody andshe, as we said, we're going to
find out.
Suppose they thought that shedied peacefully in her sleep and
we find out that she Did not.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
And let's also consider that literally a week
after she is, she passes away.
Chad and Lori get theirengagement a week after and then
when he speaks to her friend,she's kind of taken it back by
how he's moved on, just sort ofafter all these years of
(48:46):
marriage.
And he's kind of like she evenasked how are you right, how are
you holding up?
And he was like I'm okay, youknow, things are good.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, I kind of wonder if if Tammy, I mean, I
know that she created the postapocalyptic, post apocalyptic
books and because it's such apatriarchal family structure in
the Mormon religion If she justbecame a believer in the cult as
well, like that's you know,obviously very gifted, bright
(49:14):
woman Right Was she inculcatedinto this cult?
And I didn't see any.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Or, if not, that's probably part of the.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah, why he needed to get rid of her.
So that will be on next week'sepisode.
As we go through what happenedto Tammy and the steps leading
to Cape and Larry Woodcockessentially getting the police
to do a welfare search andthere's like a huge search for
(49:48):
these kids to like it thisbecomes a huge media story.
So we will go through that nextweek as well as the lovebirds
flight to Hawaii and theirextradition back and more
insanity to come.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
It just doesn't end with this case.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, it's.
It's a lot, a lot ofinformation, but anyway.
So thanks for listening and, aswe said, stay tuned for part
two of Lori Valo de bell nextweek.
All right, thanks, guys.
This episode was sponsored bythe Creek killer, book one in
(50:58):
the Harriet Harper thrillerseries written by me, dominica
best.
What would you do if you read?
The police found your body in acreek?
Find out in the creek killer,available on Amazon.
Thank you for joining me andlistening to this episode.
If you like my show, pleasegive me a rating and review.
It helps other listeners findthis podcast.
(51:19):
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forward slash the deviant mindpodcast Until next time.
Hey everybody, welcome to the Deviant Mind.
This is Dominica.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
And this is Chris.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
And today we have the insane case of Lori Balodebel,
which is completely nutty.
We were having a conversationright before we started
recording and we're like, oh mygosh, we have got to get this
(00:58):
recorded because of the fact wehave a lot of ideas, because
this case is so strange, like somany different players in it,
the timeline spans years, thekids are well, we're going to go
over the main players, but andwe are not sure because she's so
insane but she knows exactlywhat she's doing, but she
(01:21):
doesn't think that murdering herchildren was bad because
they're having such a great timein the afterlife, which goes
back to the fact that she'scompletely nuts.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I also just wanted to point out that in our past few
episodes we've been focusing onfemale killers and I've noticed
and it's probably like a dovemoment but females tend to kill
those they love, those they know, whereas men are more prone to
just kill at random people theydon't know.
(01:55):
So I find that very interesting.
You know, we have the femaleauthors who killed their
husbands.
We have this case who kills thechildren?
It's, it's, you'll, you'llrarely.
I mean even more in us new forJohns.
I mean, I just find it veryinteresting that there's always
some sort of relationship that'sinvolved in a woman who murders
(02:16):
, even though Amelia Dyer knewthe people who dropped off the
babies and the babies.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Right, so I find that really interesting, Right?
No, exactly, exactly.
And I mean they do say thatwomen do tend to marry to kill,
not marry to kill for also loveand money, and this has all the
aspects of that.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
I was just laughing because it made me think of Mary
sex kill.
Oh right, right exactly Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So this is a case of a bunch of Mormons to, although
it looks like it was a cult thatwas outside of the Mormon faith
.
That was created by Chaddaybell and he had been
publishing books and actuallywriting both religious and post
(03:10):
apocalyptic books under hiscompany called Spring Creek Book
Company back in March 9th 1990.
And both him and his wife Tammythey were married in Manti,
utah, lived in Springfield, utah, and that's when their whole
thing started, so 1990, long,long time ago and he had these
(03:35):
post apocalyptic leanings wayback then.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Which were also podcasts.
And then we got to point outprior to all this he was a grave
digger.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Of course he was.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
You know that he served as a grave digger.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I did not know that, which is so, because there's
like a ton of players in here.
I wanted to kind of go throughand give you kind of the
constellation of people.
So we have Lori Vallow Daybell,who, per her trial just ended
several months ago.
(04:13):
She is in jail for the murderof her adopted son, joseph JJ
Vallow, and her daughter from aprevious marriage, kylie Ryan.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So and and Tammy Daybell.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, tammy, yes, tammy Daybell.
So Chad Daybell was married toTammy Daybell.
They also had five kids.
Lori had a brother, alex Cox,who's going to figure
prominently in this case.
He was her brother and he had agirlfriend that became his wife
(04:51):
, named Zuluma Pestanus,probably mispronounced that, and
she becomes integral to Lori'strial.
Now Lori also has a niece namedMelanie Pavlowski, who was
married and then divorced toBrandon Boudreau.
They also figure prominently inthis case.
(05:14):
Her ex-husband, joseph Ryan,was the father of Kylie Ryan,
and he died of a supposed heartattack in 2018.
Now Lori also had a son from aprevious marriage because she
had been married five timesnamed Kobe Ryan, and now Charles
(05:38):
Vallow, who is a person that,as you will find out, was killed
by Lori's brother Alex.
He was her fourth husband andJoseph J J Vallow was actually
his, so Kay Woodcock isCharles's sister.
Kay Woodcock is the biologicalgrandma of Joseph J J Vallow,
(06:05):
and Joseph J J Vallow we'll justcall him J J, because that's
how he was known was an autisticboy whose parents didn't feel
that they would be able to takecare of him properly, and so
Charles, lori's fourth husband.
They agreed to take him in andadopt him, so a condition of the
(06:34):
adoption was that the Woodcockswould remain in J J's life, so
within a this was back whenCharles and Lori were living in
Arizona.
So the Woodcocks, they move toArizona to be close to him.
So that is kind of the mainfamily.
(06:58):
And then we have Melanie Gibb,who also is prominent in this
case, and she is Lori's friendand she actually testifies
against Lori as far as what inthe world happened to her going
into this.
So I didn't find that muchabout JJ and Tylee.
(07:24):
I do have some information aboutLori, however.
She was born Lori Noreen Cox onJune 26, 1973 in San Bernardino
, california, and she wasmarried for the first time in
1992, at 19 years old, to herhigh school sweetheart, nelson
Yanes.
But they divorced prettyquickly after and she was then
(07:50):
married to William Lagiowa in1995, and that's where her son,
colby Ryan, was conceived in,but they were literally only
married for like a year and thenher third husband, joseph Ryan.
She married in 2001,.
They divorced in 2004, andthat's Tylee's dad and there was
(08:16):
a recording.
Supposedly he died in 2018 of anapparent heart attack, but
there was a recording that theyfound during the trial saying
that, quote this is Lori saying,quote I went through a lot of
years of this kind of hard stuffand I was going to murder him.
I was going to kill him likethe scripture says, like Nephi
killed just to stop the pain andto stop him from coming after
(08:37):
me and to stop him coming aftermy children.
End quote.
But they were not able to findany evidence that she actually
did kill him.
Now, supposedly her sister,which I don't think I mentioned
in our little biographies ofpeople her name is Summer
(09:00):
Schifflet, summer Cox Schiffletsaid that her sister was totally
okay before 2018, and she wasjust a devout LDS member, so a
devout Mormon, and everythingwas great until 2018.
But seeing as there'srecordings saying that she's
going to murder her husband dueto scriptures, I kind of
(09:21):
questioned that and maybe hersister wasn't seeing everything
that she could find.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I wanted to back up a little and also point out that
she grew up with parents whowere Mormon.
She went to Mormon church a lot, which they do, and her mom,
janice, was kind of.
It was hard when you saw her toeven tell that she was a Mormon
, because by any stretch of themeaning she wasn't really.
(09:52):
She dressed really flashy,apparently wearing tight clothes
, and her persona was not veryquote unquote Mormon-like.
So I think, that may have had aneffect on a young Lori seem
like I'm Mormon, I'm religious,but hey, I got it.
I have the looks.
Later on, as I'm sure we'll getinto, she's an appagent, she's
(10:15):
on television so, and she's abeautician which we can also get
into.
But so I think that there arethings from her childhood that
indicate this sort of mixturebetween religion and looking
good.
You know, you wanna look goodfor God, you wanna look good in
general for perhaps latermeeting a prophet.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Right, well, and then also, it's interesting that you
mentioned that, becausesupposedly her sister, summer,
says that she never worked.
She was a hairdresser for likea short little bit, but when she
started getting married, thatwas it.
The husband worked and she wasjust out and about.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I believe Chad and Charles, and maybe the third
husband, were supportive of herto a point where they helped her
open a home salon.
So she worked out of her houseand had a lot of clients.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Oh, that's interesting.
So I'm kind of curious because,like that, her Summer said that
on record in her trial.
So it's kind of interesting theway stories change, right
Because of talking about that?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, they've even known.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
she may not even know that was a thing Perhaps, and
because there was this thingabout her killing the kids so
she could take their benefits,because she's always hard up for
cash.
That was kind of the thrust ofthe argument of why she killed
the children, Although, I mean,I personally think she killed
them because she thought theywere the dark souls, but we're
(11:47):
gonna get into that.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
We'll get into that.
And also let's throw in thefact that her other sister,
stacy, passed away with diabetesand she spoke with her every
night, like when she passed shewould be overheard speaking to
her sister.
And then when she has Tylee,she's convinced that Stacy was
(12:08):
reincarnated through.
Stacy was in Tylee's body orspirit.
Stacy actually wound up nottaking her meds for diabetes, so
it was kind of like this paththat she chose, where she just
didn't care, probably the bestthing.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, it's interesting because I was also
reading that she claimed thatshe had a life and death
experience when actually givingbirth to Tylee yes, that her
sister came to her at that pointand that's when she realized
she was able to speak to thedead and to the people who had
passed on yeah, and that shefelt that she had a connection
(12:46):
to the world of the dead afterthat.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Right, yeah.
So I mean, these are basically,these are the foundations, I
feel, that lead up to theideology that she would come to
love and adopt.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yes.
So the Kauai Hawaii kind ofstarts early in the story.
So we're back in 2014.
They adopt JJ Valo.
They also have Tylee with them.
They also have Colby with themNow, when Tylee was born.
This is where Lori's niece,melanie Palosky, comes into the
(13:24):
story.
She marries Brandon Bedro.
They have four children andBrandon is so close with Lori's
family that he baptizes Tyleeinto the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, andMelanie is important because she
is the one that gets into thecult with Lori, as we find out
later.
So in 2014, the Valos theymoved to Kauai Hawaii.
(13:50):
They have a business there andat this point, larry Woodcock,
who is Kay Woodcock's husband.
They don't visit JJ asfrequently as before in Arizona.
They just do now phone andFaceTime and after a bit, the
Valos they move back to Arizonaand Kay and Larry are back in
(14:13):
JJ's life, which makes them veryhappy.
Kay and Larry are the peoplewho actually report JJ and Tylee
missing, so they're veryimportant to the story.
So at this point, so we're gonnacheck in with Chad and Tammy.
(14:33):
They moved to Salem, idaho, acity just outside of Rexburg,
with their five kids, tammy'sworking as a school librarian
and at this point Lori startsreading his religious books,
meaning Chad Daybells, and hisbooks focus on radical theories
(14:55):
of spirituality surrounding theend of the world, hence the
post-apocalyptic doomsday secondcoming of Christ after a big
war happens.
I'm assuming this is connectedto the Christianity belief that
is in scriptures where I think alarge part of like born-again's
(15:18):
, maybe of the left behind theleft behind series, that's
really big.
So essentially, when I thinkthe Jews repopulate Israel,
there's a great war and that'swhen the second coming of Christ
happens and that's when thepros and the holy land open up.
Well, yeah, and that's when theapocalypse happens, and so the
(15:41):
people who are true believers ofChrist get to stay on earth and
everybody else disappears.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So I think I know she had a great relationship with
her children and even though JJwas they deemed the difficult
child because of his autism, sheapparently was fantastic with
not only JJ but her otherchildren.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, she was called Super Mom.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Super Mom, but all of her relationships with friends
and family and her own childrenreally started to change, as
she's reading Chad's books.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Right, which makes sense because there's a whole
thing about dark souls.
So what's interesting iseverything starts going really
by the wayside in 2018 for thislarge extended family.
Tylee's father, joseph Ryan, aswe said, dies and it is ruled a
heart attack.
And then, in the fall of 2018,laurie and Melanie start
(16:38):
attending meetings not sponsoredby the Mormon church and their
spouses do not attend.
And Melanie reportedly toldBrandon, her husband, that the
firesides were quote her thingand it was very clear he was not
welcome to come.
Now these fireside chats arecentered around Chad Debell's
(16:59):
religious books of theapocalypse and you know going
that the world was going to endsoon and what Brandon said.
It was interesting that Melanie, when he married her, was not
very religious, but then shestarted getting super passionate
about going to church andcertain ideas of the church that
(17:20):
were going towards this, andthe end of the world is coming
very soon.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And now we're going to see more female followers
than male followers.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, which is fascinating I find.
So this is October 26, 2018.
Lori and Chad Daybell meet at areligious conference in St
George and Lori's friend,melanie Gibb, like we spoke
about, said that they werereally super flirty when they
(17:51):
met and they talked about a lotof beliefs they shared.
And I can imagine, like Lorihas been reading Chad books for
years, all of a sudden she getsto meet him as a prophet and can
you imagine like the I couldimagine hero worship and Lori's
a back then kind of a, I guess,attractive woman of for her age.
(18:13):
So, and supposedly, reportedly,chad tells Lori that they had
been married in a previous life.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
James and.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Alana, james and Alana that's right, james and
Alana.
And Lori said she totallybelieved it, and so, because
we're in 2018, we get to have alot of cell phone data that came
out in trial, and so, of course, we have the first evidence of
Lori creating a contact for Chadin her phone called Bishop
(18:47):
Shumway, and this is the firstelectronic evidence of their
interactions.
It's October 28th 2018.
So I guess probably still atthe religious conference in St
George, and so things heat upvery, very quickly.
So by November, Sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Chad convinces her that she was going to help lead
society during Coombs Day.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Of course, because now I mean it's so perfect
because he's like oh, you'regoing to be my right hand person
, you're my woman, we've beenmarried before.
And I guess this is thequestion we were talking about
before we got on the phone callis is Lori a victim of Chad
Daybell or is she fully a fullparticipant in this craziness?
(19:34):
So within a couple of weeksChad is back in Arizona for
another conference and accordingto Melanie Gibb, who remember
is oh my God, I just had like aCOVID brain fart Lori, not Joe.
Okay, lori's house, sheactually no, I'm sorry.
(20:00):
Melanie Gibb is Lori's friendand tells the court and papers
and reporters that actually Chadstayed at Lori Lori's house as
Charles was out of town.
Charles is Lori's currenthusband.
Yeah, before.
So Gibb said she believed itwas a hookup and that weekend
(20:23):
Lori told her friend Melaniethat her and Chad were sealed
together by Maroney and JesusChrist in the LDS temple and
that the relationship ofmultiple lives were reunited.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
This is also not too long before she realizes that
there's a demon inside of herhusband, charles, a demon by the
name of Ned Schneider who's outto kill her, and she is just
terrified of him.
And then, in January 2019,charles actually calls a police,
(20:57):
afraid of Lori, and it's justlike she's threatened my life.
I just don't feel safe.
Are the kids in the house?
He says yes, I don't know whatto do.
He decides to change his lifeinsurance policy from all going
to Lori to his grandmother, andhe wanted to divorce her because
he started finding out aboutthis whole Chad religious affair
(21:20):
.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Because, I mean, things went cookie, cookie pans
like very, very, very quickly.
So we're now in December, soonly a couple weeks later, chad
and Lori make their firstappearance together on the
preparing a people podcastcalled time to warrior up Time
(21:45):
to warrior up.
I can only imagine what that'sabout.
I'm assuming, I believe thepodcast has since been removed
and disassociated itself fromthe couple, so I'm assuming it
was a Mormon podcast aboutconversion, because the Mormons
are very big into convertingpeople, which is why they send
out missionaries.
(22:06):
For two years, you have a.
All the men go out on missions.
I don't know if women get to dothat as well, but they go out
for two years into the world andtheir mission is to convert as
many people as possible.
I remember back in I don't knowif they do this anymore, but
they would go house to housewhen I lived in Connecticut and
(22:26):
they would ask if they couldcome inside and talk to you
about the teachings of JesusChrist and a lot of day Saints.
Yeah, it was pretty hardcore.
Anyway, I was going to hope aswitnesses.
Oh, you had to hope aswitnesses, yeah.
So, strangely enough, brandonBoudreau, which is the husband
(22:51):
of her niece, melanie, said thatthe last Christmas he spent
with the family was with Charlesand Lori and he said everything
felt different and that Brandonsaid the relationships are not
very close.
Melanie Gibb and her familywere there and Charles and Lori
seemed to be really out in theon the out denounce.
Now, this was also around thesame time that Lori told her
(23:14):
friend Melanie that she had adream that Charles was in a car
accident and that he wouldn't behome by January 1, 2019.
So she's like hey, here'sChristmas time.
I'm going to tell you that myhusband's going to be dead in
six days.
Charles was never in anaccident and when Melanie asked
Lori what happened, she saidquote he didn't because Satan
(23:35):
interfered with the plan, andquote always.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I mean Satan's always interfering with things.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Right, killing her husband so she can be with her
lover.
Cool, cool, cool, yeah, awesome, so, um.
So we get to January 2019,husband still alive and Charles
tells Brandon, which is againthe husband of niece Melanie,
that Lori was, strangely enough,accusing him of infidelity and
(24:05):
claiming that Charles was takenover by an evil spirit and that
they needed to perform castingsto get it out of him.
And throughout the next severalmonths, charles would allegedly
be taken over by three to fourdifferent evil spirits that they
would need to cast out, andLori later.
This has started referring topeople who had spirits in them
as zombies.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And also, don't forget, one of the spirits was
Ned Schneider.
I mean, I just don't know, andyou know, chad and Lori are once
James and Elena and a pet.
It's amazing that they come upwith these like normal names.
I know, right, yeah, it's justso.
She really was so head overheels and at this time I think
(24:51):
her own knowing that Charleswants to divorce her, it's
starting to occur to her likethis isn't going to work out.
I can't even have him in mylife.
But also, she's fully aware ofhis life insurance policy.
Yeah, she still assumes thather name is on there and she
wants that money.
So chatter.
Interestingly enough, chadwould have the people come over
(25:14):
and you know a small group inthe living room, and again, it
was mostly female, you know.
And Alex Cox, her brother, wasactually very close to Chad as
well, like he would attend thesemeetings and he was kind of
like the right hand man.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Mm, hmm, and I see, which, again, is kind of nuts
Now.
So Charles at this point islike, oh my God, my wife's
insane.
So there is actually bodycamera footage from Arizona
police department showingCharles begging Lori to receive
mental health at CommunityBridges and Community Bridges
(25:49):
said, no, she's not crazy, sowe're just going to let her go.
And this was around the timethat police found Chad on his
because, again, this is 2019 nowand there are computer records
that Chad searched.
Quote Ned Schneider, louisianaobituary 1997, and quote so Chad
(26:11):
was taking names of dead peopleand claiming that that's the
demon that was possessingCharles.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I need to back something up here and let
everyone know that Lori was tookprior to meeting Chad.
She's still a Mormon, was toldby God you have to be on real
fortune.
So she actually was acontestant no joke on real
fortune and she actually wonmoney and she said it was
because of the Grace of Godtelling her to go that she was
(26:41):
able to get.
I think she won $500,000.
Then he flash forward and she'scompeting in a beauty pageant.
It's for Mrs Hayes County inTexas and she's a finalist but
doesn't win.
So again the flashes of.
You know I may be religious,but check me out.
You know, like, hey, I'm still.
(27:02):
You know this vibrant, sexywoman.
You know it's so interesting.
Again, this dichotomy betweenreligion was acceptable, what's
not?
And then this kind of, againprobably coming from her mom,
but she's on real fortune.
It just reminds me of a.
You know, we all remember thedating show killer.
Oh yeah, he's a contestant.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Oh, which is again.
I mean I think there is like wewere talking about narcissistic
tendencies in this.
Well, and I actually.
So Charles files for divorcefrom Laurie and I found the
court documents and I just haveto read one of these excerpts
(27:47):
from the court documents thatthey were filed by Charles
Vallow's attorney on February15th 2019, because it just shows
how completely insane thiswoman has gone.
So this is an excerpt from thecourt documents.
Mother Laurie Vallow hasrecently become infatuated, at
times obsessive, aboutnear-death experiences and
(28:08):
spiritual visions.
Mother has told father this isCharles Vallow, that she is
sealed, eternally married to theancient Book of Mormon, prophet
Moroni, and that she has livednumerous lives on numerous
planets prior to this currentlife.
Mother also believes that shewas married to James the Just in
a past life and also lived asMary French in the 1800s, who
(28:30):
was Joseph Smith Jr's naturalgrandmother.
Mother has also informed fatherthat she is a translated being
who cannot taste death, sent byGod to lead the 144,000 into the
millennium.
Mother believes this is againLaurie, that she is receiving
spiritual revelations andvisions to help her gather and
(28:50):
prepare those chosen to live inthe New Jerusalem after the
Great War, as prophesied in theBook of Revelations and on
January 29th 2019, during aphone conversation between the
parties, which is Laurie andCharles, and after their
physical separation, lauriemother informed father Charles
that she was a God assigned tocarry out the work of the
(29:12):
144,000 at Christ's secondcoming in July 2020 and that if
father got in her way of hermission, she would murder him.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, it's all under you know.
Hey, listen, when God tells youto do something and you send a
person to receive one a person,you got to do what you got to do
?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yes, but the crazy thing is is that he halted the
divorce proceedings and toldLaurie he wanted to make the
marriage work.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes and yeah, that's really quite surprising.
I mean a case of the abusedright going back to the abuser
and children boy and his mom is,if you just want to hop into it
is pretty crazy.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Right, I just I mean, and right after this, by the
way, laurie disappears.
So Charles contacts JJ'sgrandmother, kay, because Laurie
has left, he doesn't know whereshe went and he needs for Kay,
which is his sister, to takecare of JJ while Laurie is
(30:23):
missing, because Charles neededto work.
So Kay and JJ moved back andforth between Arizona and
Louisiana during the February toMarch 2019 because nobody
actually knew where Laurie was,and finally, eventually and this
(30:44):
was around the time when heasked his sister to become his
main beneficiary because, by theway, this is a one million
dollar life insurance policy no,charles is, it's Kay's sister.
She is the grandmother of JJ.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Okay, yeah, so he, yeah, he moves Laurie and
Patural.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
yes, and so Charles and JJ do eventually move to
Houston, texas, because it'scloser to Kay's home in
Louisiana, and according to Kay,which is again Charles's sister
, laurie left her husband andchild for a total of 58 days
during this period, and it waslater discovered that Laurie was
in Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Hawaii is a place that keeps coming up.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
in this case, yes, exactly, and so things start
getting a little funky nowbetween Laurie and her brother
Cox.
Yeah, on March 2019, there wasa joint bank account and it was
used to purchase a round tripflight for Chad from Idaho Falls
(31:51):
to Mesa.
There, chad and Laurie'srelationship is super heating up
between this time and March,but then, all of a sudden, in
April, laurie moves back toTexas to live with Charles and
JJ and meanwhile, as she's moved, like living with Charles, chad
(32:16):
is looking for wedding ringsmade out of malachite for her
and Laurie, so they're planningto get married.
Meanwhile, laurie's back inTexas with Charles and Charles
is halting the divorceproceedings, which is like
that's interesting.
(32:36):
So on May 17th, jj visited A andher husband, larry, the
Woodcocks in Louisiana for theweekend.
That was his birthday and thatwas the last time the Woodcocks
saw JJ in person, which was May17th 2019.
On May 29th, laurie and ZulemaPastines which is, if you
(33:01):
remember, the girlfriend thenshe will become the wife of her
brother, alex Cox.
So they're having aconversation now about Charles's
demons.
So she's still convinced thatCharles has demons within him
and wants to kill her.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
That's one of her fears.
She tells Alex is man.
I really think he's going toshoot me.
And Alex was her protector.
I mean, he listened to Chad aswell, so he believed her.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, he believed her and supposedly his other sister
, summer, said that actuallyAlex had had a traumatic brain
injury and that his logic wasthat of a 16 year old.
Yeah, so these people movearound all the damn time.
(33:50):
So on June 2019, laurie andCharles moved to Chandler,
arizona, and at this point she'sLaurie's already telling her
bestie, melanie Gibb, that Tileywent dark sometime between
February and June 2019.
Now, dark is when these peoplein this cult believe that a
(34:18):
demon takes over somebody's soul.
So Melanie is also.
You know, melanie is the niecewho is also in the cult with
Laurie.
She and her husband, brandondecide to get a divorce and
Brandon claimed that Melanie wasin the same cult as Laurie and
(34:39):
she told her then husbandBrandon that she received
revelations from God that shewasn't safe at the house with
him and she was trying toestablish visitation rights with
her children.
But they wanted a divorcebecause Brandon was not safe.
And Around the same time,charles tells Laurie that he's
(35:02):
going to Idaho to talk to TammyDaybell about Laurie and Chad's
affair because he had alreadyconfronted Laurie about it and
he was like I'm not having this.
And unfortunately, on July 11th2019, laurie's brother, alex,
shoots and kills Charles.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
So Charles goes over to the house to pick up JJ and
bring him to school and Alexactually calls 911 after he
shoots Charles and he claimsthat it was out of self-defense.
He was witness to Charlesforcibly beating Laurie.
(35:44):
It really enraged him, got upand shot him and in the same cop
cam they start interviewingLaurie and there's just no
remorse.
There's no remorse.
She actually makes jokes aboutlike boy.
I can't believe what theneighbors must be thinking.
It just means nothing to her.
And then, days after the factshe and Chad are starting to
(36:05):
sext, they're sending reallysteamy texts to one another.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Well, on top of everything else, it comes out
that Alex Cox was, as youmentioned, designated as
Laurie's protector by Chad in apatriarchal blessing, because I
remember, chad is the prophet ofthis whole little gang of
(36:29):
messed up people and killers.
And the Rexburg policedetective said that the crime
scene was really odd, that thestory didn't quite make sense,
because Cox told them that heshot Charles twice in the chest
while they were standing, butbecause of the bullets location,
the second shot was fired whenCharles was already on the
(36:50):
ground and there was very littleblood, very little blood
splatter, and supposedly Alexclaimed that he had given
Charles CPR after he shot him,but there was absolutely no
injuries or impressions onCharles' chest.
There would have been moreblood if that happened, yeah,
(37:11):
and on him probably.
Yeah, exactly Now there was GPSdata confirming that Laurie had
been at Burger King and atWalgreens, but looks like she
wasn't there.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Which is I'm going to play later too, because I
believe, if I'm saying correcthere, when you know well, we'll
get to it.
But when the day comes, whenthe children and Tammy, she's
apparently not there either,she's like not at the scenes of
the crime, which basically pointat Chad.
(37:51):
And then, at this point,earlier and later, point to Alex
.
Alex was kind of like the do-it, the fixer, the hitman, yeah
yeah, he was the hitman.
And what's crazy is so sheeventually finds out that
Charles has one million dollarpolicy.
You know, went to K and then hestarts texting Chad frantically
Like I am so upset, I can'tbelieve that he took me off.
(38:14):
You know I'm not thebeneficiary, so that was huge
for her Right.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Well, that also.
And then you wonder if I meanthere's a reason for his murder,
like a let's get rid of myhusband so I can be with Chad,
and then also let's get rid ofmy husband so I can get the one
million dollar policy.
And I'm not the one who did it.
So Dan Dott doesn't mess up mebeing the beneficiary of the
policy which, of course, had youknow he had already fixed.
(38:41):
Now, according to Melanie,Laurie and Chad were super,
super happy and they werecommunicating multiple times a
day.
Laurie had two to three cellphones, one which was dedicated
to communications with Chad.
They would meet at hotels, theywere intimate and Laurie said
(39:02):
everything is totally goodbecause this is God's will,
because they've been married inmultiple lives and they have a
mission together.
Yeah, Just meant to be.
And I'm kind of wondering.
So we've been talking for about40 minutes.
Do we want to make this a twoparter?
And because there's more deathscoming.
There's the kids deaths, butthere's also Tammy's death.
(39:24):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, I agree to make this two parter.
Maybe just a couple more things, maybe even just getting into
the victims, as we usually doGet into that later.
I just wanted to point out thatnot after, not long after the
Charles murder, alex oh she,laurie and the kids move closer
(39:48):
to Chad and then Alex moves intothe same building complex that
Laurie's in.
So they're all like right there, right?
But yeah, I think yeah, let'sdive into the victims and then
we can pick up to the nextepisode on how they became the
victims.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Okay, and which victims would you want to talk
about?
The kids, the kids in Tammy, oh, tammy, yes, well, I you know.
It was interesting because, asI was doing a lot of research,
like I know, it was interestingbecause Tiley was 16, but then
she had her own Jeep and she hadthis life.
(40:24):
But when I was looking forinformation on her, I didn't
really find that much.
And I'm usually no on Tiley.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Oh, on Tiley, yeah, she was basically, you know, a
really funny girl, very livelyand loving, and was just so
excited when JJ into their livesand she basically really became
more of a mother figure.
I feel I did a lot, a lot forJJ than perhaps Lori, just in
(40:58):
that role of mother, like I feltlike she was more motherly
towards JJ.
Listen, by all accounts, loriwas also a fantastic mother, but
Taley was JJ's go to andthere's even video footage of
Lori.
We see Taley holding a littleJJ and Lori says something like
(41:20):
oh, my babies Switch.
Tiley says something to thefact like this is my baby.
So there was a really closeattachment to them, really,
really young, cut short, likethat school, from what I
understand.
And then, yeah, she had, Ithink, like, as her mom started
going off the deep end, she goesdark.
(41:40):
You know, it's just like thisweird, not dark in the way that
she has these evil spirits, butshe herself mentally is just
like so confused Her.
You know the passing of her.
You know these ex-husbands.
She doesn't get it.
You know she's just kind ofbouncing around.
You're here now.
You're there now.
You're just missing.
Now you're going to stay withthem.
(42:00):
Now your brother's going to gostay with them.
You're here, I mean.
I think at some point she justkind of shut off and perhaps
became an issue.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
But I also did see that she did not like Chad Debel
, and Chad Debel actuallymentions that as one of the
reasons why she went dark.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Wow, I didn't know that, yeah.
So she probably didn't want tolie.
She probably didn't want to lie.
All like craziness.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Yeah, which again is like well, of course not because
you're crazy and she knows thatshe's obviously a smart kid and
she was, I guess, 17 at thetime of her disappearance.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
JJ was seven.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, and JJ, you know, by all accounts he was
just like a kid, sometimes haddifficult times.
Again, he was autistic, but itseemed like he was relatively
high functioning, although therewere reports that he would have
episodes that Laurie sometimesfound difficult to deal with,
(43:12):
you know.
But what's fascinating is thata lot of family members came out
being like, well, if youcouldn't take care of him, we
would have taken care of him.
Like there was no reason youneeded to kill him.
I mean, these people have likelarge, extended families.
She had a large family withlots of kids and I mean,
(43:35):
obviously there's never anyreason for anybody to ever kill
anybody.
But what they were saying isthat if you were having a
hardship we would have helpedyou.
But, like we had discussedbefore, because Laurie believes
she can speak to the dead, Imean in her bizarre statement
before sentencing she says sheknows her kids are okay.
(43:55):
She totally talked to them inthe afterlife.
They're having a great time,they're having a better life.
Yeah, they had here.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Oh, let's throw this in there.
Two of her husbands out of thefive bought her full length
mirrors because at night shewould dance to religious music
for hours.
And right now in jail inmatessay that she could be doing the
same thing, like she just danceslate at night in her cell.
So that's really kind of cookie.
(44:23):
I mean I can't imagine if I'mJJ or Tylee walking into my mom
doing this kind of likereligious dance, just sort of
religious.
But it's interesting to knowthat her husband was supportive
and like, hey, here's a mirrorfor you to do your you know your
Mormon dance and get yourdoomsday dances.
Jj was, yes, definitely hadissues, but apparently was again
(44:46):
a really sweet kid, loved byeveryone he came into contact
with and you know as difficultas he was, I'm sure for her
again there were lots of momentsof caring where she did do a
good job with him.
I mean, you know, to bring anadopted child into any family I
would imagine is really hard andit's bumpy, you know, to begin
(45:08):
with, but yeah, it's just wow.
I just it's just soheartbreaking.
And then Tammy married him solong with Chad, like it's like a
loving mother, like dideverything for her children,
everything for Chad.
You know, I put from what Iunderstand she was supportive of
(45:29):
his.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Well, I mean she was, she actually is.
She was born in Pasadena,california, on May 470.
And I loved Disneyland that.
She was a gifted, giftedstudent.
She was real creative.
She loved putting on familyshows that she produced and
directed.
She had a great, really happychildhood.
(45:53):
When she was 13 the family movedto Springville, utah, where she
was also an excellent student.
She played the drums and theclarinet in the Springville High
School Band.
She was the yearbook editor hersenior year.
She was kind, had a reallyfriendly smile, loved books and
loved reading.
And she met Chad Dabill atBrigham Young University her
(46:19):
freshman year.
They fell in love and weremarried March 9th 1990.
And and Tammy looks like shedropped out and was working as a
secretary for Springville'sParks Department.
She had a real interest infamily history.
She submitted more than 100,000names for temple ordinance work
(46:43):
.
That means but that's probablysomething from Mormon stuff.
She became a full timehomemaker after Chad graduated
and took a job in Ogden, utah.
Their family grew very quickly.
You know they had five kids.
She was bringing her kids tothe public library, really tried
(47:05):
to get to develop a passion forreading and she became a
computer teacher at Art CityElementary and supposedly she
was kind of a computer genius,her family said, who had a
talent for graphic arts and in2004 she and Chad, like we spoke
about, founded spring Creekbook company and she actually
(47:25):
wore many hats and the companyshe was the chief financial
officer and she also designedthe book covers.
Her family said that she wasthe true backbone of the company
and she produced dozens ofbooks over the years Into the
family.
I mean backbone of that familyyeah, backbone of the family and
of the company she.
(47:46):
In 2015, they moved to Salem,idaho, and she became the
assistant librarian at MadisonMiddle School and then she later
became the librarian at CentralElementary School in Sugar City
, idaho, and she was treasuredand loved and she was very big
into the church she did.
She was a stakes girl campdirector, young women presidents
(48:08):
.
She was loved by everybody andshe, as we said, we're going to
find out.
Suppose they thought that shedied peacefully in her sleep and
we find out that she Did not.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
And let's also consider that literally a week
after she is, she passes away.
Chad and Lori get theirengagement a week after and then
when he speaks to her friend,she's kind of taken it back by
how he's moved on, just sort ofafter all these years of
(48:46):
marriage.
And he's kind of like she evenasked how are you right, how are
you holding up?
And he was like I'm okay, youknow, things are good.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Yeah, I kind of wonder if if Tammy, I mean, I
know that she created the postapocalyptic, post apocalyptic
books and because it's such apatriarchal family structure in
the Mormon religion If she justbecame a believer in the cult as
well, like that's you know,obviously very gifted, bright
(49:14):
woman Right Was she inculcatedinto this cult?
And I didn't see any.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
Or, if not, that's probably part of the.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah, why he needed to get rid of her.
So that will be on next week'sepisode.
As we go through what happenedto Tammy and the steps leading
to Cape and Larry Woodcockessentially getting the police
to do a welfare search andthere's like a huge search for
(49:48):
these kids to like it thisbecomes a huge media story.
So we will go through that nextweek as well as the lovebirds
flight to Hawaii and theirextradition back and more
insanity to come.
Speaker 1 (50:04):
It just doesn't end with this case.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Yeah, it's.
It's a lot, a lot ofinformation, but anyway.
So thanks for listening and, aswe said, stay tuned for part
two of Lori Valo de bell nextweek.
All right, thanks, guys.
This episode was sponsored bythe Creek killer, book one in
(50:58):
the Harriet Harper thrillerseries written by me, dominica
best.
What would you do if you read?
The police found your body in acreek?
Find out in the creek killer,available on Amazon.
Thank you for joining me andlistening to this episode.
If you like my show, pleasegive me a rating and review.
It helps other listeners findthis podcast.
(51:19):
Follow Dominica best presentsthe deviant mind wherever you
listen to your podcasts.
Visit the best storytellingnetworkcom, where you'll find
show notes, my books, links tosocial media and much more.
Join my patreon for specialsubscriber perks, like two extra
exclusive episodes a month anda Q&A with me at patreoncom
(51:44):
forward slash the deviant mindpodcast Until next time.
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