October 13, 2023 • 60 mins
Ever found yourself drawn to the chilling allure of a good horror movie? Well, brace yourselves as we take you on a goosebump-inducing voyage into the eerie depths of the 1979 Amityville Horror movie and the bone-chilling real-life crime that inspired it. We roll up our sleeves to dissect the ghastly DeFeo family murder of 1974, unraveling the enigmatic life of Butch DeFeo and the torment-filled upbringing that may have precipitated the heinous act. We also delve into an unsettling séance conducted by the renowned paranormal investigators, Lorraine and Ed Warren, and the chilling events that followed the murders.
Hosted by Dominika Best and Christopher Gordon.
Visit thebeststorytellingnetwork.com where you’ll find show notes, my books, links to sources for this episode, social media and much more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
this computer.
Hey, everybody, welcome to theDeviant Mind.
This is Dominika.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And this is Christopher.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
And the month of October is literally my most
favorite month of the entireyear.
I love Halloween, I love horrormovies, and so we decided that
we would do horror movies andthe true races that are
connected to them or are they'rebased on.
And today we decided to do aninfamous one called the
(00:30):
Amityville Horror, which, forall of you young kids, if you
haven't seen it, definitely do.
It was done in 1979 and it wasdirected by Stuart Rosenberg,
starring James Brolin, margoKitter and Rod Steiger, and it
was a film that follows a youngcouple who purchased a home
haunted by combativesupernatural forces, and it was
(00:51):
based on J Anson's 1977 book ofthe same or, and supposedly the
book documented the alleged andwe're going to get into this
paranormal experiences of theLutz family who briefly resided
in the Amityville New York home,and this home was where Ronald
(01:13):
DeFeo Jr committed the massmurder of his family in 1974.
And we are going to be talkingabout the case of Ron DeFeo Jr,
what happened for him to killhis family, and then also how
the lawyer well, the lawyerorchestrated this entire like
(01:36):
series.
Now there's the AmityvilleHorror is the original movie,
but it was remade in 2005.
There's been sequels to it.
It is actually at this time.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
There's so many movies using the Amityville
title, including, I think Italked about Amityville in space
.
Right, exactly, amityville inspace, and the poster, as I said
, is the Amityville house, butin outer space.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, which is?
I mean, that's just amazing andjust for all of you youngsters,
this is actually known as oneof the highest grossing
independent films of all timeand it grossed over $80 million
in North America, and this wasin 1979.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, At a very early age my parents, and more
specifically my mom, would bringme at a very early age to see
horror films.
But you know, kind of messed up, but it kind of grew into.
You know my fascination withall this today.
(02:41):
But somewhere you gotta startsomewhere Like my first movie
was Burns offering and it wasjust like but anyways, I saw
that my parents took me to seethe Amityville horror, you know.
So what they would do is they'dcover my eyes over like scaring
scenes coming up right.
But I remember being like whoa.
And then, when I found out thatit was in New York upstate New
(03:03):
York I was like, oh my God.
So then you flash forward towhen I'm a teen and my family
are visiting my cousin and wewent past the house and it was
just like the weirdest thing toactually come face to face with
the house, which in itself Ifind to be a character, I mean,
that has eyes.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Oh, I know right.
And now I believe Amityville is, isn't it on Long Island?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's upstate New York .
It's about 17 miles away fromNew York City.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Okay, okay, okay, so it must be in Westchester County
, then Is that right I couldhave.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, like, like a little above County Westchester,
like up, yeah, up a littlenorth, but not too far north.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So going back to 1974.
And so this case, you know, Ihad always known that this was
based on a true story.
I myself was not allowed towatch this film.
Well, I wasn't in the countrywhen it came out, but when it
was on replay on TV in the 80s,I was definitely not allowed to
(04:08):
watch it.
I was never sneaking it in,somehow, like in the early 90s,
so I, you know, I was only fouryears old in 1979.
So I was in Poland.
So, but anyway, going back,I'll see.
You saw it in Poland or whenyou came to no, no, no no, no,
no, no, no.
I saw it in reruns.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Like because I remember I don't know if it was
USA or there was up all night,like whenever they would play
all the old horror movies.
That's actually how I sawHalloween for the first time as
well, so it's kind of like latenight TV that was typically
always edited too, so, of course, but it was always a really
(04:52):
creepy one.
That I saw was like, oh my God,this is insane and this was
before we all knew about, youknow, boys mass murdering their
families, like that wasn't real.
Which spoiler alert.
This is what the actual casewas about.
So this family was a littlecuckoo and I didn't realize this
(05:15):
at the time when I was like, oh, we should do the Amityville
horror that this has, likeeverything this has they get.
I was at the Gambino family,which is the very no is at the
wrong family.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And the Genobies.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
The like a total mob of New York.
Then also the Warrens, whichare the paranormal investigators
that the there's entirefranchise now of horror films
based on them, which I'm totallyforgetting, which, okay, the
(05:50):
con, the conjuring, if anybodyof you guys saw that.
So Judy and Ed and Ed Warrenwere involved in this case as
well, which is kind of crazy.
So this is like the granddaddyof all of the horror movies
outside of Halloween.
This is known as like theprototypical, stereotypical
(06:16):
horror movie of haunted house.
Like this is supernatural.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
That's one of the first supernatural movies that
really became popular, otherthan the Exorcist, which I yeah
yeah, just as some side notes,amityville actually means
friendship, which is interesting.
It was settled and formedAmityville around the 1600s.
Annie Oakley, al Capone duringprohibition prohibition and Will
(06:44):
Rogers are some of the morefamous people to have lived in
Amityville.
So I just want to go.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Very cool.
I did not know that either.
So back to kind of the way weusually talk about murders is we
can talk about what the crimewas as it stands and then we can
go into the family and then wecan go into the craziness that
happened afterwards.
(07:09):
And this is one of those caseswhere, for all intents and
purposes, he was convicted andtried and spent the rest of his
life in jail for a specificjournalist who have called into
question the entire case, andwe'll get into that as well.
(07:29):
So it's very fascinatingactually.
But let's start with the crimeitself.
So in the early evening hours ofNovember 13, 1974, there are a
bunch of drinkers at Henry's Bar, which was a tavern, eric Road
(07:50):
and Ocean Avenue in Amityville.
They were hanging out, sippingbeers, having cocktails, and it
seemed like it was going to bean uneventful evening.
However, at 6.30 pm, ronaldButch, the Fayo Jr and that's
what he was known to the localsopened the door to the bar and
yelled quote, you got to help me.
(08:10):
I think my mother and fatherare shot.
End quote.
And so obviously this was asmall town in the 70s they all
went to help him.
So that was Robert Bobby Kalsik.
He was an out of work brickmason and he was Butch's best
friend who actually kind of goteverybody going into a car to
(08:32):
help them and he was like Butchwas hysterical, crying Bobby,
you got to help me.
Somebody shot my mother andfather, you know go there go
into the house.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
He lets all his friends and the people who show
up round it up but he refuses togo back into the house again.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And Bobby, who is his best friend, was like are you
sure they're not asleep?
And he's like no, no, I sawthem up there.
So the people who went to thathouse initially were named John
Altieri, joey yes, woot Iprobably mispronouncing that Al
Saxton and William ScordaMcGlear, who was the owner of
(09:13):
Henry's Bar.
So they piled into a blueElectra 225, 1975 car, which I
remember the Buick's.
They were massive.
My parents had one in the 70sor like in the early 80s when we
got here, and so Bobby was theone that actually drove down to
the house, which was only ablock away from the bar and 12
(09:36):
Ocean Avenue.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, exactly, and the house itself was a rambling
three story Dutch colonial homebuilt in 1925.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And the property was long and narrow and so the house
kind of sat sideways, with thefront door facing the driveway
and not the front, and so that'swhere you always see the eyes,
because that's actually thefront of the house, right right
onto the house on the side.
So there was a dog insidebarking and he was tied up in
(10:14):
the inside of the kitchen's backdoor and he was barking but
everything else was quiet.
Strangely enough, the dog wasnot totally housebroken.
So that's where the familytypically tied the animal to the
kitchen's back door, which Ifound kind of weird and a little
cruel, but again, this is the70s and so kind of hurried up
(10:35):
the stairs to the second floor,except for Bobby who, as you
mentioned, stayed outside, andthey were immediately
overwhelmed with the stench ofdeath and blood.
And what the men found wereRonald Joseph, the pharaoh
senior, 43, and his wife Louise,the pharaoh, 42, dead in their
(10:59):
bed their pharaoh seniors bearback.
There was dried blood there.
And Louise it was a little hardto see her body because she was
buried underneath an orangeblanket, but they were able to
kind of see that she was alsodead.
And unfortunately, you knowagain, this is a family homicide
(11:24):
.
All of Butch's siblings weredead.
They were all in their beds andso and so that was John the
pharaoh, age nine, then Mark thepharaoh, age 12, they were in
the same room, they were both inthe same bed and they were also
(11:46):
shot to death.
And then their sister, eightyears old right Is a sister.
Yeah, sister was eight years oldas well.
Well, joey, joe, yes, what wasthe one who called 911?
And oh, and then dawn, and thendawn, who was the eldest sister
(12:09):
, who was 17,.
I believe she was 17.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
The pharaoh himself.
The junior was 23, I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
So it was yeah, so there was.
Where was.
Where am I?
So she was 16 or 17.
And then there was anotheryounger sister and then the two
boys Right.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So six in total.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, six in total exactly.
So then the investigation kindof went into full swing and the
you know the police, what hashappened here, and they quickly
(13:03):
butch's story kept changing andthey decided that he would be
kind of the main suspect, thatfirst he said that it was a
hitman because, is you know hisfamily?
His father, hold on his mother,was the daughter of a.
(13:29):
I believe she was theGenevieve's daughter, she was
the.
No, she was.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
There wasn't the Genevieve's, it was.
Her father worked very closelywith the Genevieve's family.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's right and that was the connection with black
car business.
Yes, which we'll get to, yeah,yes, and so he.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
when, when the police showed up after the 911, called
Butch, was obviously in shockand he felt that his family had
been targeted by the mob and healso actually named the
potential mob hitman.
And pretty quickly the policefound I mean, it was a real
hitman, but so he would have notbeen able to to to kill the
(14:21):
family, so that story wasn'tadding up.
And then when they brought himin for interrogation he actually
confessed to the truth that hekilled his family and claimed
this was what his lawyer claimedthat he heard demonic voices in
his head that made him do it.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Also I think I wanted to know, in that he was handed
the gun and told to kill thefamily.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Right, there are lots of different stories.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, yes, exactly.
And also, do you know, dominica, how it went from?
Because when the 911 calls,that leads to the investigation
from the local police, but then,from an understand, the Suffolk
police takes over.
Do you know anything more aboutthat, like how the police and
switches?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You know what I did not know?
I think I read that but Ididn't because I focused mostly
on the all the differentdisparities that happened in the
case Right on In his trial, sothat I am not sure about.
But so he turned.
(15:38):
They had got their man,especially because it was known
that he had a pretty rough lifebutch.
He was overweight and shy whenhe was a young kid.
He got tormented all the time.
He started lashing out in histeen years and his father was
(15:59):
known to be abusive and theyactually he's.
His mom took him to see apsychiatrist to help him out.
He was a heroin addict and Ithink also met a feminine
something.
He was also definitely onheroin, but there was something
(16:23):
else he was doing.
He got kicked out of school dueto violence, so it wasn't
really a stretch for the policebeing like, oh okay, this guy
killed his.
He was regularly using LSD andheroin.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
He served in the military I have.
I have feeling like there was abit where he was also part of
the military and they said thatthat was one of the reasons why
he was apparently good with thegun and desensitized to violence
.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Oh, which makes sense .
I don't know how the militarycould have gotten such a Right.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Then, um, was this pop pulled string?
Oh no, you know what?
I beg your pardon.
He wanted to go, he was draftedor something, and actually a
bigger part senior spoke to someofficials higher up and they
made sure that his that butchwould not serve.
I think that's what was.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, and and again.
You know his parents did try tolike.
His father started giving butcha try to like get him to do
well in school and that wasn'tworking.
He refused to attend thepsychiatrist appointments and
finally, when he got kicked outof school due to the violence
(17:42):
toward other students, he, hisdad got him a job at his
dealership and gave him a weeklystipend, even if he was like
falling down at the job, pleasestipend.
He used to buy alcohol anddrugs and guns.
Um, he was also known to getdrunk and start fights and on
(18:08):
one occasion he attempted toattack his father with a shotgun
while his parents were arguingyeah, um, and I believe it was
at that time his, because hisdad was really beating his
mother to a pulp.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
You know, he and I guess a lot of gravitated
towards their mom because theirfather just really had a violent
temper.
Uh, and to back it up, it wasactually uh, not the uh uh war,
because he didn't go to war, hewasn't involved in the military,
but the night of the killing hewas watching a war film that
(18:43):
they say just kind of may haveinfluenced him, because that
came out during theinvestigation.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
They hear this kind of which I actually have, um, a
therapist kind of write upduring the trial, that kind of
he said no, actually that moviehad nothing to do with him.
Parents because and we'll getto that but um, the interesting
thing with this family is thataround town they were known as a
(19:10):
quote nice, normal family.
They were very religious,outwardly kind.
They would hold a prayer huddleon Sunday morning.
So in 1973, installed a statueof St Joseph, the patron saint
of families and fathers, holdingbaby Jesus on their front lawn,
um which there's picturesonline of that, if you can see
(19:31):
it.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Um, that's when the father got very, very into
hearing voices from God, andespecially St Joseph.
Well, he would speak to thatstatue, from what I understand
which is a way to butcher her,the father.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I'm sorry senior.
And around that same time,butch was actually handing out
statuettes of that same saint tohis coworkers, telling them,
quote nothing can happen to youas long as you wear this and
quote uh, this was also of StJoseph, which I also find
interesting that if his wife isthe one that's connected to the
mob, I'm shocked that he wouldbe beating her.
(20:06):
I mean, granted, it's theseventies, but um, uh, you know,
I would think that the hisfather-in-law would, uh, that's
right, give you a ton of money.
If you don't stop beating mydaughter, I'm going to kill you.
Um, so I find that interestingand that's how we'll we'll get
later into all the differenttheories.
(20:26):
So one of the reasons why thepolice believe that butch killed
his father first was that inOctober 1974, he was, uh, butch
was entrusted by his family'sdealership with depositing
approximately the bank.
But butch, because he was a crapof a human being, um, he felt
(20:49):
he wasn't earning enough inwages and he devised a plan with
his friends to stake, to stagea fake robbery and steal the
money for themselves.
And of course, um, his plan fellapart and when the police
arrived at the dealership toquestion him, he um, uh, right
with the authorities, eventhough his father knew he had
(21:11):
taken the money and he actually,ronald senior, interrogated his
son about the robbery and butchthreatened to kill his father,
um, during that whole situation,and so that was in October, and
then they were dead November,the November the 13th, and
supposedly what the policebelieve happened was that, um,
(21:34):
he took his rifle and he enteredhis parents' rooms first where
he fadely shot the both of them,and then he went back to his
four siblings rooms and murdered18 year old was Dawn, she was
18, 13 year old Allison, 12 yearold Mark and nine year old John
, matthew.
(21:54):
And then he actually took ashower afterwards, his clothing
and gone in a pillowcase andleft for work, ditching the
evidence in a storm, which wasone of the things about the case
when the psychiatrist went onthe stand because he tried to
claim insanity because he washearing voices, but the
(22:18):
therapist was like, no, becauseof the fact that he was able to
shower change and get rid of hisevidence.
He knew what he had done waswrong, so that actually really
messed up his kind of defense.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
As a quote A lot of this case in the beginning,
certainly with the allegationsand the talk and some proven
facts, given what's the mother'sname again, forgive me, louise,
louise's condition, and alwayswearing sunglasses that remind
me of the Menendez brothers thiswas self-defense of years of
(23:02):
abuse and sexual assault towardsthem as kids growing up.
So there was a tinge of methinking like, oh, maybe that
kid I've led to it, but to takeit beyond your abuser, that's
what I don't understand.
They felt their mom wascomplicit, their father and that
(23:27):
menendez trial happened.
And then now you have this andyears earlier where I feel it
was heightened because therewere times when senior
threatened to cut him offfinancially.
He was married at the time,which was and didn't want them
to live alone.
He said you have to live in thehouse.
He also was very controllingover them.
(23:50):
So perhaps over time it justsort of built up.
I mean senior was obviously nosustain, but he did threaten his
own son.
He was asked to do a hit,actually by a senior of his
grandfather.
I mean we can get all into thislater.
(24:13):
Maybe I'm jumping ahead, butButch was loved, his grandfather
, senior's dad, uh, everythinggoing on.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
The idea was that which grandfather was, he wanted
to take Cause.
So Michael Brigante senior wasLouise's father and he was the
one that was connected.
He wasn't in the GiovanniGiovanni family but he was
connected to them, like he didwork with them, so he had
(24:44):
connections and senior had hisown ties so, for whatever reason
, it came out something abouthow we need to.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
He was asked basically to kill his
grandfather, whom Butch was veryclose to, and shows up, he puts
the gun on the table and he'slike my dad just asked me to do
this and I obviously can't dothis.
So you know he's happy becausehe has this great allegiance
with his grandson, but it's likenow, what do you do?
So senior definitely messed andtraumatized his family.
You know that comes up in thetrial as part of his defense.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
That comes out, yeah, so so William Weber was his
lawyer and now, um, he gave a1992 interview, um to not sure
who he gave the interview to,but he claimed uh, this is Butch
the Fayo, uh, who's in jailbecause he did get um, he did
(25:42):
get sentenced.
He said that he was advised byhis lawyer, william Weber, to
make up hearing voices, uh, tomake the story story sound more
attractive for future book andmovie contracts.
And as you remember, that wasthe 1977 movie, uh, the 1977
book that came out, um, so inthe trial it came out, there was
(26:06):
some the defense also said wasit?
Defense said that it wasimpossible, shooter, to have um
killed the whole family the waythat it was done.
There was a guy, a journalist,um, who wrote a book, um called
(26:27):
the night that the the Fayosdied, and his name was Rick
Osuna.
Now he had been put onto thecase earlier by.
I think he was working for um,no Entries, I think for A and E
or for like one of the channels,and he found a lot of
discrepancies in the actual case, because there's always been a
(26:48):
question of why didn't the kidswake up?
He didn't have a silencer, sowhy didn't the kids wake up to
the gunshots.
Why did they?
Um, how is it a person able tokill so many people so quickly
and so neatly?
Now um he that he had druggedhis family.
(27:09):
But yeah, the autopsies cameback.
There were no drugs found intheir system.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
So the forensic uh uh investigator found that the
bodies were most likely moved.
So you know, perhaps the kidswere able to get up, uh murdered
, and then their bodies areplaced back because everyone's
asleep, right.
So that's the only way that allof that.
So the theory is that eachmember of the family was killed
(27:40):
in their bodies.
In fact, seniors uh leg is kindof dangling off of the side of
the bed.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You know, um, that's another idea.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You know, following the theory that there might have
been more than just one shooter, it's possible Someone's
helping move the bodies.
You know seniors.
A big guy, he was shot twice.
A lot of them were shot twice.
The first shot, uh, just kindof get him up in the adrenaline.
He's going after his son andthen his son shoots him again
(28:13):
and then he's like I got to gethim to bed.
He's a huge guy.
How did he have help, or did hehave help?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Right, um, so I.
So originally he actually hadanother lawyer.
Um, in 75, um, jacob Siegfriedwas his lawyer and he motioned
the court to be permitted theright to examine, inspect, copy,
photograph or make and takephotostopic copies of the
original notes of the arrestingofficers.
(28:42):
Um, he felt that the uh, thedefendant was deprived of a
preliminary hearing and um, hewas really trying to find a way
to put it like holes in theprosecution's case.
Unfortunately, the court didn'tdeem that these items were
(29:06):
necessary for Butch's defense,which I found interesting.
And so judge John Jones, hedenied the request.
And then that's when Siegfriedum filed a notice of defense of
mental disease or defect for hisclient.
Um, he then this so it wasactually, but strangely enough,
(29:27):
butch did not want his sanityquestioned and he threatened to
strangle Siegfried Um.
And that's around the time thatMichael Brigante, senior, uh,
he had already like spent$40,000 on attorneys.
He actually said I've heardthis guy, nick Osuna's book, uh,
(29:47):
quote, sweetheart, your dime isplayed out, end quote.
And he pulled the court and hegot a court appointed attorney.
And this is where um WilliamWeber comes in, on July 7th 1975
.
Um, he was court appointed toButch and he was the one that,
(30:08):
uh, we find out, orchestratedthe Lutz's um moving into the
house and having all of thisquote unquote, so they could
sell books.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And let's keep in mind the name of the house,
given by uh, the family was highhopes, right, right.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Um there you go High hopes.
Yeah, the Lutz's move in andthey, um, they, you know, they
claim it's haunted and I thinkthey managed to stay like seven
months um there.
And then they strangely get abook deal and this is where the
(30:54):
warrants come in.
The warrants, like, come intothe house and see if they can,
um, talk to the entities whichthey believe are the, um, the
murdered kids, um, and then thebook gets written.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So what understand the?
The Lutz is a financialposition, but the house, went on
, was on the market for half itsprice, right, uh, but
apparently they didn't even have, uh, they weren't in a
financial situation to even geta loan.
So that's always been a weirdinterest Like how, how were they
able to move in?
(31:31):
And then the question remains,did they?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
get some of the publisher?
I actually have the answer tothat.
So, um, and this is from isthat, um, william Weber sent a
book contract to the Lutz'ssaying that, um, he had created
a corporation and Kathy andGeorge Lutz would receive 12% of
(31:58):
the shares of this corporation.
Um, when this book was going tobe written, wow and so, um, wow
, so they, how?
I just 12%, they wanted 50%.
And so, um, they, the Lutz's,were the ones who, uh, picked
(32:19):
the author, jay Anson, of thebook, and, um, they got a
lucrative 50-50 splits.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And then, uh, they for the mortgage and they're
able to buy the house.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, I, they said that.
Um, there was also that werewritten in the New York Sunday
news and good housekeeping.
Um, and they were based on theexperiences that Lutz's, weber
and Hoffman brainstormed inJanuary 1976.
Um, so he so Hoffman, who wasthe original writer on this, um,
(33:00):
before they went with Jay Anson, he was the one who wrote those
articles so sued against himand they got um, did they
actually win?
They actually went for $4.5million against Hoffman because
he had written those articlesand meanwhile they were working
(33:22):
with Jay Anson on the actualbook.
Um, they that was dismissed.
Um, but they did get.
Did it get money from the bookbecause it did very well and
there was lots of lawsuits forpeople trying to essentially
(33:47):
profit off of them.
And it came like they actuallysaid that most of the book was a
work of fiction and it reliedon large part of on upon the
suggestion was the attorney.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
But the Give me, did they move in only 28 days after
the murder?
Um, did you find that out?
I'm not sure.
Or did they sell the houseafter 28 days of being in there?
Um, I think that was inNovember 28th, but I can't
recall if that relates to them.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yes, they moved in 13 months after the DeFeo murders
had occurred.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Ah, okay.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
And on December 18th 1975.
Okay.
Now so they in the book.
They claimed that they had apriest come in to bless the home
to essentially their system,but he came to sprinkle the
(35:01):
water and then he, he supposedlyheard the ghosts himself.
And then, you know, there wasfrom the book.
They claimed they felt strangesensations.
So supposedly in the book, theyfelt that in the book that the
(35:24):
couple started beating theirchildren, that they became very
violent with their kids and then, and so they claimed that the
house was doing it, and so theylived in.
I think they lived in the housefor 28 days.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, okay, yeah, um, and then they moved out.
It's like dope and black stuff,right, like dripping from the
walls.
Yeah, yeah, it's outside thewindow.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
So just yeah, exactly .
So the family actually went ona nationwide tour to promote the
book as their true story and Ibelieve they had, because they
had 50% of the profits from thebook.
I don't know how much moneythey got from that $80 million,
but everybody made quite a bitof money on this.
(36:13):
But going back to the actualtrial, so in the book Horrific
Homicides, a judge looks back atthe Emmetttyville Horror
Murders by Thomas M Stark.
They, the prosecution, hadbrought in a psychologist by the
name of Dr Harold Zolan and heinterviewed Butch DeFeo for five
(36:35):
hours and concluded, like wetalked about, that he was in his
right mind when he killed hisfamily and he actually diagnosed
with Butch DeFeo withanti-social personality and that
he claimed that he knew thekillings were wrong and he tried
to hide the evidence, like wespoke about.
And when Zolan said he spentthe five hours with DeFeo, he
(36:57):
noticed that he had all thecommon characteristics of
anti-social personality disorder.
So they include low frustrationlevel, easily aroused, frequent
explosive conduct, a desire toget his own way, getting into
the norms of society.
He had little capacity to feelguilt, self-centered and having
(37:19):
disregard for the feelings ofothers, self gratification in
his conduct and he really wantedto be the big man and had like
a macho attitude.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Which is all probably inherent.
I mean that's a nurture right.
If you're surrounded in thismafioso world where you have
members of your family that arelike bit players in that, just
like shady behavior, you bearwitness to domestic abuse.
I mean I, you know, I thestem's gotta stem a lot from
(37:51):
that.
And how to deal with life likethe trauma.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, exactly, and he believed that because this
personality and his rebellionagainst his demanding father
that was the cause of theshooting.
He also didn't believe that themovie Castle Keep had anything
to do with the shootings andthat was the movie that was shot
before he killed, before hekilled the thing.
So now Rick Osuna's book comesout and he actually felt that he
(38:20):
did a lot of investigation.
His book, as I said again, itwas called the Night that the
Faos Died and he felt there wasokay.
So there was a question at onepoint during the trial, but the
sister was the one that killedtheir siblings.
So he essentially said thatDawn, she wanted to escape to
(38:44):
Florida with her boyfriend andher parents were like,
absolutely not.
So she was the one that came upto Butch and said I know you
hate dad.
I don't like them either.
I wanna go run off with myboyfriend.
Let's kill our parents.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Let's do this.
So Bidens said, yes, we'regonna kill the parents.
And then, so he kills theparents and then he comes to the
other rooms and he has foundthat Dawn has killed their
siblings because she didn't wantany witnesses and he's so
horrified by the fact that shekilled these young kids that he
(39:23):
kills her.
So that was one of the defensesthat he kind of.
Again, he kept his stories.
So that was one of the thingsfor doubt that they were trying
to do.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
And self-defense being another thing.
But again going back to thebodies being moved, so if you do
follow that theory and she isstanding up and they're arguing,
she's not killed in bed,sleeping, her head is not on a
pillow, so but that's again, ifwe follow that as what actually
(39:59):
and now the other thing is thatthere was also and his pals were
there.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, that his pals were there and that they were in
some place, that they were insome way also responsible.
But there was he.
I mean, if you wanna read thebook, it's fascinating.
There was a.
They had gotten a.
I think I don't know if it wasDefense had brought in an
(40:29):
investigator from New York Cityto look at the crime scene and
he was adamant that there was noway that there was only one gun
used and that there was onlyone shooter.
He felt that there had to be atleast three.
Wow, wow.
But again like, in the end,butch was convicted of first
(40:50):
degree murder.
He died in jail.
He stayed in jail.
He, as I said, claimed that allof the money for the book and
everything was all Weber andthat Weber was the one that told
him to like.
We said earlier that he heardvoices.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Is on a personal level.
Do you feel that this couldhave led to a mistrial?
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I mean, yeah, there was enough evidence.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
But just like a conflict of interest in legal
counsel.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Right.
Well, his book, rico Zonas book, was said that in the crime
scene because he was able to getcrime scene photos that the
blood stains were in places thatdid not add up with the story
that the, the Faos, were allkilled in their beds, like you
were talking about Right, andthen there was a bullet with a
(41:51):
different caliber from theMarlin rifle in the marital
bedroom.
There was also a lot of policebrutality in South Oak County
and again, this is the 70s.
So he feels that Rico Zonasclaimed that Butch's confession
was obtained under torture.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
They beat him.
They beat him yeah because they.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
And then, you know, the prosecutor and the police
also admitted on severaloccasions that the crime would
have required three people.
Oh, and the retired policedetective was named Herman Race
and he reached the sameconclusion.
But you know, everybody wantedswift justice and they're like
dude.
You were the one that did itand because he had changed the
story so many times, they didhim.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know they say that that evening earlier in the
evening I guess, perhapsperhaps before bedtime, although
no one went to bed that seniorreally beat the whole family
that night.
He was really.
He made threats towards Dawn'sboyfriend and at one point she
(43:08):
even takes a kitchen knife andshe takes it out of her hands.
They continue to fight.
Butch is watching the wife iscompletely beat down and he got
really upset with her becausethey had such a close
relationship and he felt thatshe was just so Basically so
complicit to a point that shewas beat to a pulp.
(43:30):
And then when Butch pushed himover, she runs over to him to
make sure he.
Butch sees that and just hassuch a bad reaction Like how can
my mom check on him, make surethat he's all right?
So there was a lot of turmoilthe evening of the 13th, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Now and, to be fair, in the book it's not supposed to
be a mouthpiece for Butch atall, like the author says that
he's.
You know there's discreditedquotes, so it's not like Butch
could potentially have done it.
(44:14):
It was just that he felt thatthere were so many issues with
the trial, like did other peopleget away with murdering this
family was his thing and hisversion?
I'm looking for that now.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
She has an investigative journalist who dug
deep.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
And they apparently told him and I believe Butch
said himself that he felt saferin jail, like he was finally
sitting on the cot, likeeveryone was like right this is
the replacement.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
So.
So Rick Osuna's version ofevents was that the friend,
bobby Kelski, which he found inthe bar, killed Ronald and
Louise, and Don was the one whokilled the children, and Butch
was so horrified that he killedDon.
So that's the author's kind ofhis idea of what happened.
(45:15):
Obviously, butch went to prisonfor this, so he was the one who
was found guilty of all ofthese murders.
And then again Weber, weber.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
So Lorraine and Ed Warren actually did a seance in
the house, and they weren'talone there were a lot of, a lot
of different mediums and ghostspeakers, or however you call it
, supernatural hunters that werethere and there were film crews
.
Like everyone was surrounded.
It was a scene.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Yeah Well, I mean again, it's like I can't imagine
the horror of an entire familykilled and then all of a sudden
you have all of the craziness ofthe supernatural and now it's a
haunted house.
I mean, that's just catnip forpeople.
So.
So that is the harrowing,horrifying case of the DeFeo
(46:16):
family and then, how you know,one of the most famous horror
movies of all time, from thelawyer and a family who were
kind of ready to cash in, and Iguess there was also a priest
that was actually defrocked byhis diocese for participating in
(46:37):
this whole thing as well.
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Well, I'm liking on this fellow's name.
You know I've been deep divingas you have.
You know, in our styles youtend to go more for the print
and the reading and I'm watchingin docs.
They do mention that there was,in addition to all that body
(47:01):
moving.
They felt that he, you know he,kept claiming his innocence
which may point to, like thissort of outer body experience,
and I think that was the gatewayin the springboard for all this
.
You know all the houses, I hadsome mental issues, but if this
(47:22):
guy has mental issues obviouslyprior to and he did, obviously
sociopath, and that was read andyou know, packaged as him being
haunted and the house beinghaunted, and that's what I find
so interesting and it's just themagic of Hollywood, you know,
just taking over these.
(47:44):
I just can't, I just can'tbelieve a legal but arrange such
a thing.
And in the documentary theyshow a scene with the Lutz is
sitting down on a table withWeber drinking wine, discussing
how the spoke will be great.
It's important people for peopleto know this, but you know the
you know, the warms go in thereand these folks go in there and
(48:07):
it just doesn't feel.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
And you have a franchise.
And you have a franchise bornwhich in I was just reading an
article in 2022.
So that's last year straight toDVD releases based on the
Emoryville case Emoryvilleuprising, emoryville Bigfoot and
Emoryville Karen are all we'resupposed to have been released
last year.
So the franchise is still going.
(48:30):
And you know, butch DeFeo diedin prison, george Lutz is dead
as well, and people are stillgoing off Ocean Avenue.
I mean, there's been lots offamilies that have lived there
since with no paranormalactivity.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
They do claim that Bobby, the pal that was suspect,
that was in you know theplayroom or wherever they were,
his friend Bobby, that they'vegot Bobby Klusky, so he just
sort of jet and no one knewwhere it was and it's believed
that he moved and someone who'sfriends and with he and that
(49:14):
whole group.
So recognize him on the streetand was like Bobby and he was
like I'm sorry, I think I'mbeing confused for someone else
and just continue walking, butit was him.
So he really distanced himselfand it makes you wonder, like
you know what.
Did he play a role in this?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Yeah, exactly, um, rickos, I'm pronouncing his name
.
I'm probably not pronouncinghis name right, but the book
itself kind of.
I mean, he interviewedeverybody at the time and got
lots of records and so I kind ofwonder, like you know, was he
(49:57):
Rickos sooner?
Like, was he right that it wasan affair of three people?
Who who did this and not?
And not just him.
And you know, it's interesting,we didn't even mention Darrell,
geraldine the pharaoh, who wasthe ex wife of butch.
But there was a question aboutwhen they actually got married.
(50:18):
Where was it?
Did they get married in the 70s, like butch claimed, or did
they actually get married in theearly 80s?
And so there's been lots ofquestions about that as well.
So so, yeah, that go ahead.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
He had senior was again, we really get the
listeners, I think should reallyknow him for the background of
all this the kind of guy thatthe pharaoh senior really was.
He was physically very big,commanded the room and just
spoke to tons of differentpeople and he just had so many
(50:58):
ties and would sneak out moneyfor this and that, you know, the
Cadillac business was doingwell, but then the mafia said,
hey, this place is getting toohot, take over this dealership.
So he, he felt like the man andI think consequently so did
young butch.
Like you know, this is kind ofcool and you know my grandfather
(51:18):
is in on this and my wife'sfather is in on this.
So you know, I feel this whole,you know, grander than that.
And that's all before.
He's 23 years old when thishappens.
So you got to imagineeverything that's around him in
(51:40):
this weird community of.
I mean, it's when the mob isreally in New York, especially
just like at its height, and youknow to be involved in that and
being asked to kill your owngrandfather by your dad.
This is no justification oranything for what happened, but
(52:01):
clearly a case where he shouldhave taken his meds.
You should perhaps.
You know, with all these caseswe discussed, couldn't got,
could have got a little morehelp.
But so what do you think?
Do you think?
Well, I have a few.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Before we go to that I actually totally forgot on.
I found on a very interestingfacts that came out from the
book that he actually he figuredout that they were lies, that
they were myths.
So One of the myths in the bookwas that the shine cock Indians
resided in Amityville and theyactually did not reside anywhere
(52:40):
near Amityville because theLong Island Indians were the
Montauk nation.
Yeah, that 112 Ocean Avenue wasan Indian sanitarium where the
mad and dying would be leftexposed the elements to die.
That there's actually no recordthat there was ever an Indian
(53:01):
burial ground or a sanitarium onOcean Avenue.
And Rick spoke to a Long IslandNative American expert, john
Strong, saying that the Indiangroups lived along the tidal
bays and that's yeah, so I thinkin Long Island.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah, you're right, yeah, and Suffolk County is a
Long Island.
And I'm interesting too, becauseyou know where all these rumors
started by those believing thatthe house is haunted.
And what I was going to pointout earlier was and maybe you
know this fellow's name, butthere was a guy out there who
just disproved everyone'ssupernatural abilities and
(53:42):
mediums and, in fact, thewarrants.
I believe he was on a showwhere this is a you know, I can
bend a spoon.
No, you can't.
So can I.
So he was one of these peoplewho were like this place is not
haunted, this place isn'thaunted.
This was a terrible tragedythat happened.
There's no explanation for it.
And at first everyone was like,ooh, the warrants are there.
(54:03):
Ooh, there's their trying toexercise the place.
But then they realized, yeah,this is kind of a hoax.
And that became a huge item inthe news.
Yeah, that kind of took overthe news cycle, the fact that
this book is actually it's false.
It's false, it's been provenfalse.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
Yeah, so another thing in the book the original
Amityville horror book a witchnamed John Ketchum escaped from
Salem, massachusetts during thewitch trials and built his house
on or near the famousAmityville house to continue his
devil worship and that it wasreported that his body was
property of 112 Ocean Avenue.
And so there was a citizennamed John Ketchum that lived in
(54:48):
Ipswich, massachusetts, and hesettled in Huntington Township
on Long Island, but he was arepresentative of the local
government and was not a witchand was actually a rather
prominent figure in Huntingtonuntil his death in 1697.
So there's never anyinformation of him being a witch
.
Another claim in the book thatthe famed Amityville house
(55:13):
resides on an ancient cemeterythat was abandoned or cursed,
and that is also false.
There was never a reporterindication of any cemetery near
that property and the owners ofthe original house at 112 Ocean
Avenue had to move their housedown the street because they
were plagued with supernaturalproblems.
(55:33):
That was on.
Moynihan purchased the propertyat 112 Ocean Avenue from Annie
Ireland in 1924.
They needed a bigger homebecause they grew in size, and
so they moved their smallcottage down a matter of a
couple of hundred yards andlived there until the
construction was completed, sothat was not true.
(55:54):
And then there was also the redroom with the gateway to hell.
And there was the red room wasactually nothing more than a
little area underneath thestairway.
Children stored their toys orused as storage.
It no longer exists because thecurrent owner renovated the
basement and constructed over itand so that was never a thing.
(56:15):
And they claim that theAmityville horror movie could
not be filmed in the real housebecause the crew was too scared.
And actually the village ofAmityville viewed the ghost
story as a hoax and refused toallow the film crew to film in
their community, so they deniedshooting permits there.
(56:39):
And then also in the book, kathyLutz has three dreams in the
Amityville horror about LouiseDeFeo.
First, that Kathy Lutz wakes upscreaming because she saw that
Mrs DeFeo died of a gunshotwound to the head.
She was shot in the head, kathyscreamed.
The second dream consisted ofMrs DeFeo's DeFeo plot at St
(57:00):
Charles Cemetery and re-intimedin Brooklyn.
And then the last dreamconsisted of Mrs DeFeo making
love to the painter of the DeFeoportraits.
So first, mrs DeFeo died fromtwo gunshots to the upper body
and it was nowhere near her heador neck.
Second, the Brigantes nevermoved Mrs DeFeo's body from the
family plot because they wantedLouise with her children and
(57:25):
that was, and there was neverany.
There was never any affair.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
So those were the myths.
Yeah, he was really upset with,he was paranoid seeing her was
that she was having an affair?
Also interesting to point out,you mentioned the Beryl Grounds
and the sacred Native AmericanIndian Grounds.
Very Poltergeist.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Right, exactly, I was thinking of the same thing.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
Also, one other note is that Louise was, when found
murdered, was clutching onto aheart necklace that she had,
which at one point she startedwearing in place of her cross,
which I believe can really kindof upset senior, because you
know they went to church.
(58:20):
She said I'm not wearing this,I'm just going to wear the harp
now.
And so I saw one of thosehorrible pictures in her body
she's clutching onto the harp.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
That is amazing.
So you guys watch.
If you haven't seen it before,watch the Amon andville Horror
or any of its sequels, and nextweek we will have another very
fun true story Not very fun, butinteresting.
Thanks for asking.
Yeah, Halloween type was a truestory.
(58:53):
So thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Wait, wait wait, wait , wait, Dominica.
What do you think?
Oh, what do I think.
Was it demons?
Did he act alone?
Did he have help?
Speaker 1 (59:03):
Definitely not demons .
I'm thinking he I don't know, Imean this journalist the fact
that a detective said itcouldn't have.
I kind of wonder about that,but I'm not sure, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
I do agree that there was at least one other person.
There's no way these bodies allcould have been moved, moved so
quickly.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Well, especially when you talk about Bobby Klusky and
how he disappeared.
I mean, that's definitely.
That makes me think thatthere's something going on with
that.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
Like he wasn't killed , which I find interesting, you
know.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
Yeah, okay, well, happy October, best month of the
year, and we will see you nextweek.
Thanks, why can I not find howto stop?
Oh, there it is.
(01:00:04):
Stop, move.
this computer.
Hey, everybody, welcome to theDeviant Mind.
This is Dominika.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And this is Christopher.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
And the month of October is literally my most
favorite month of the entireyear.
I love Halloween, I love horrormovies, and so we decided that
we would do horror movies andthe true races that are
connected to them or are they'rebased on.
And today we decided to do aninfamous one called the
(00:30):
Amityville Horror, which, forall of you young kids, if you
haven't seen it, definitely do.
It was done in 1979 and it wasdirected by Stuart Rosenberg,
starring James Brolin, margoKitter and Rod Steiger, and it
was a film that follows a youngcouple who purchased a home
haunted by combativesupernatural forces, and it was
(00:51):
based on J Anson's 1977 book ofthe same or, and supposedly the
book documented the alleged andwe're going to get into this
paranormal experiences of theLutz family who briefly resided
in the Amityville New York home,and this home was where Ronald
(01:13):
DeFeo Jr committed the massmurder of his family in 1974.
And we are going to be talkingabout the case of Ron DeFeo Jr,
what happened for him to killhis family, and then also how
the lawyer well, the lawyerorchestrated this entire like
(01:36):
series.
Now there's the AmityvilleHorror is the original movie,
but it was remade in 2005.
There's been sequels to it.
It is actually at this time.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
There's so many movies using the Amityville
title, including, I think Italked about Amityville in space
.
Right, exactly, amityville inspace, and the poster, as I said
, is the Amityville house, butin outer space.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, which is?
I mean, that's just amazing andjust for all of you youngsters,
this is actually known as oneof the highest grossing
independent films of all timeand it grossed over $80 million
in North America, and this wasin 1979.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, At a very early age my parents, and more
specifically my mom, would bringme at a very early age to see
horror films.
But you know, kind of messed up, but it kind of grew into.
You know my fascination withall this today.
(02:41):
But somewhere you gotta startsomewhere Like my first movie
was Burns offering and it wasjust like but anyways, I saw
that my parents took me to seethe Amityville horror, you know.
So what they would do is they'dcover my eyes over like scaring
scenes coming up right.
But I remember being like whoa.
And then, when I found out thatit was in New York upstate New
(03:03):
York I was like, oh my God.
So then you flash forward towhen I'm a teen and my family
are visiting my cousin and wewent past the house and it was
just like the weirdest thing toactually come face to face with
the house, which in itself Ifind to be a character, I mean,
that has eyes.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Oh, I know right.
And now I believe Amityville is, isn't it on Long Island?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's upstate New York .
It's about 17 miles away fromNew York City.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Okay, okay, okay, so it must be in Westchester County
, then Is that right I couldhave.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, like, like a little above County Westchester,
like up, yeah, up a littlenorth, but not too far north.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So going back to 1974.
And so this case, you know, Ihad always known that this was
based on a true story.
I myself was not allowed towatch this film.
Well, I wasn't in the countrywhen it came out, but when it
was on replay on TV in the 80s,I was definitely not allowed to
(04:08):
watch it.
I was never sneaking it in,somehow, like in the early 90s,
so I, you know, I was only fouryears old in 1979.
So I was in Poland.
So, but anyway, going back,I'll see.
You saw it in Poland or whenyou came to no, no, no no, no,
no, no, no.
I saw it in reruns.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Like because I remember I don't know if it was
USA or there was up all night,like whenever they would play
all the old horror movies.
That's actually how I sawHalloween for the first time as
well, so it's kind of like latenight TV that was typically
always edited too, so, of course, but it was always a really
(04:52):
creepy one.
That I saw was like, oh my God,this is insane and this was
before we all knew about, youknow, boys mass murdering their
families, like that wasn't real.
Which spoiler alert.
This is what the actual casewas about.
So this family was a littlecuckoo and I didn't realize this
(05:15):
at the time when I was like, oh, we should do the Amityville
horror that this has, likeeverything this has they get.
I was at the Gambino family,which is the very no is at the
wrong family.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And the Genobies.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
The like a total mob of New York.
Then also the Warrens, whichare the paranormal investigators
that the there's entirefranchise now of horror films
based on them, which I'm totallyforgetting, which, okay, the
(05:50):
con, the conjuring, if anybodyof you guys saw that.
So Judy and Ed and Ed Warrenwere involved in this case as
well, which is kind of crazy.
So this is like the granddaddyof all of the horror movies
outside of Halloween.
This is known as like theprototypical, stereotypical
(06:16):
horror movie of haunted house.
Like this is supernatural.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
That's one of the first supernatural movies that
really became popular, otherthan the Exorcist, which I yeah
yeah, just as some side notes,amityville actually means
friendship, which is interesting.
It was settled and formedAmityville around the 1600s.
Annie Oakley, al Capone duringprohibition prohibition and Will
(06:44):
Rogers are some of the morefamous people to have lived in
Amityville.
So I just want to go.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Very cool.
I did not know that either.
So back to kind of the way weusually talk about murders is we
can talk about what the crimewas as it stands and then we can
go into the family and then wecan go into the craziness that
happened afterwards.
(07:09):
And this is one of those caseswhere, for all intents and
purposes, he was convicted andtried and spent the rest of his
life in jail for a specificjournalist who have called into
question the entire case, andwe'll get into that as well.
(07:29):
So it's very fascinatingactually.
But let's start with the crimeitself.
So in the early evening hours ofNovember 13, 1974, there are a
bunch of drinkers at Henry's Bar, which was a tavern, eric Road
(07:50):
and Ocean Avenue in Amityville.
They were hanging out, sippingbeers, having cocktails, and it
seemed like it was going to bean uneventful evening.
However, at 6.30 pm, ronaldButch, the Fayo Jr and that's
what he was known to the localsopened the door to the bar and
yelled quote, you got to help me.
(08:10):
I think my mother and fatherare shot.
End quote.
And so obviously this was asmall town in the 70s they all
went to help him.
So that was Robert Bobby Kalsik.
He was an out of work brickmason and he was Butch's best
friend who actually kind of goteverybody going into a car to
(08:32):
help them and he was like Butchwas hysterical, crying Bobby,
you got to help me.
Somebody shot my mother andfather, you know go there go
into the house.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
He lets all his friends and the people who show
up round it up but he refuses togo back into the house again.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And Bobby, who is his best friend, was like are you
sure they're not asleep?
And he's like no, no, I sawthem up there.
So the people who went to thathouse initially were named John
Altieri, joey yes, woot Iprobably mispronouncing that Al
Saxton and William ScordaMcGlear, who was the owner of
(09:13):
Henry's Bar.
So they piled into a blueElectra 225, 1975 car, which I
remember the Buick's.
They were massive.
My parents had one in the 70sor like in the early 80s when we
got here, and so Bobby was theone that actually drove down to
the house, which was only ablock away from the bar and 12
(09:36):
Ocean Avenue.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, exactly, and the house itself was a rambling
three story Dutch colonial homebuilt in 1925.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And the property was long and narrow and so the house
kind of sat sideways, with thefront door facing the driveway
and not the front, and so that'swhere you always see the eyes,
because that's actually thefront of the house, right right
onto the house on the side.
So there was a dog insidebarking and he was tied up in
(10:14):
the inside of the kitchen's backdoor and he was barking but
everything else was quiet.
Strangely enough, the dog wasnot totally housebroken.
So that's where the familytypically tied the animal to the
kitchen's back door, which Ifound kind of weird and a little
cruel, but again, this is the70s and so kind of hurried up
(10:35):
the stairs to the second floor,except for Bobby who, as you
mentioned, stayed outside, andthey were immediately
overwhelmed with the stench ofdeath and blood.
And what the men found wereRonald Joseph, the pharaoh
senior, 43, and his wife Louise,the pharaoh, 42, dead in their
(10:59):
bed their pharaoh seniors bearback.
There was dried blood there.
And Louise it was a little hardto see her body because she was
buried underneath an orangeblanket, but they were able to
kind of see that she was alsodead.
And unfortunately, you knowagain, this is a family homicide
(11:24):
.
All of Butch's siblings weredead.
They were all in their beds andso and so that was John the
pharaoh, age nine, then Mark thepharaoh, age 12, they were in
the same room, they were both inthe same bed and they were also
(11:46):
shot to death.
And then their sister, eightyears old right Is a sister.
Yeah, sister was eight years oldas well.
Well, joey, joe, yes, what wasthe one who called 911?
And oh, and then dawn, and thendawn, who was the eldest sister
(12:09):
, who was 17,.
I believe she was 17.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
The pharaoh himself.
The junior was 23, I believe.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
So it was yeah, so there was.
Where was.
Where am I?
So she was 16 or 17.
And then there was anotheryounger sister and then the two
boys Right.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
So six in total.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, six in total exactly.
So then the investigation kindof went into full swing and the
you know the police, what hashappened here, and they quickly
(13:03):
butch's story kept changing andthey decided that he would be
kind of the main suspect, thatfirst he said that it was a
hitman because, is you know hisfamily?
His father, hold on his mother,was the daughter of a.
(13:29):
I believe she was theGenevieve's daughter, she was
the.
No, she was.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
There wasn't the Genevieve's, it was.
Her father worked very closelywith the Genevieve's family.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's right and that was the connection with black
car business.
Yes, which we'll get to, yeah,yes, and so he.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
when, when the police showed up after the 911, called
Butch, was obviously in shockand he felt that his family had
been targeted by the mob and healso actually named the
potential mob hitman.
And pretty quickly the policefound I mean, it was a real
hitman, but so he would have notbeen able to to to kill the
(14:21):
family, so that story wasn'tadding up.
And then when they brought himin for interrogation he actually
confessed to the truth that hekilled his family and claimed
this was what his lawyer claimedthat he heard demonic voices in
his head that made him do it.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Also I think I wanted to know, in that he was handed
the gun and told to kill thefamily.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Right, there are lots of different stories.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, yes, exactly.
And also, do you know, dominica, how it went from?
Because when the 911 calls,that leads to the investigation
from the local police, but then,from an understand, the Suffolk
police takes over.
Do you know anything more aboutthat, like how the police and
switches?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You know what I did not know?
I think I read that but Ididn't because I focused mostly
on the all the differentdisparities that happened in the
case Right on In his trial, sothat I am not sure about.
But so he turned.
(15:38):
They had got their man,especially because it was known
that he had a pretty rough lifebutch.
He was overweight and shy whenhe was a young kid.
He got tormented all the time.
He started lashing out in histeen years and his father was
(15:59):
known to be abusive and theyactually he's.
His mom took him to see apsychiatrist to help him out.
He was a heroin addict and Ithink also met a feminine
something.
He was also definitely onheroin, but there was something
(16:23):
else he was doing.
He got kicked out of school dueto violence, so it wasn't
really a stretch for the policebeing like, oh okay, this guy
killed his.
He was regularly using LSD andheroin.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
He served in the military I have.
I have feeling like there was abit where he was also part of
the military and they said thatthat was one of the reasons why
he was apparently good with thegun and desensitized to violence
.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Oh, which makes sense .
I don't know how the militarycould have gotten such a Right.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Then, um, was this pop pulled string?
Oh no, you know what?
I beg your pardon.
He wanted to go, he was draftedor something, and actually a
bigger part senior spoke to someofficials higher up and they
made sure that his that butchwould not serve.
I think that's what was.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, and and again.
You know his parents did try tolike.
His father started giving butcha try to like get him to do
well in school and that wasn'tworking.
He refused to attend thepsychiatrist appointments and
finally, when he got kicked outof school due to the violence
(17:42):
toward other students, he, hisdad got him a job at his
dealership and gave him a weeklystipend, even if he was like
falling down at the job, pleasestipend.
He used to buy alcohol anddrugs and guns.
Um, he was also known to getdrunk and start fights and on
(18:08):
one occasion he attempted toattack his father with a shotgun
while his parents were arguingyeah, um, and I believe it was
at that time his, because hisdad was really beating his
mother to a pulp.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
You know, he and I guess a lot of gravitated
towards their mom because theirfather just really had a violent
temper.
Uh, and to back it up, it wasactually uh, not the uh uh war,
because he didn't go to war, hewasn't involved in the military,
but the night of the killing hewas watching a war film that
(18:43):
they say just kind of may haveinfluenced him, because that
came out during theinvestigation.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
They hear this kind of which I actually have, um, a
therapist kind of write upduring the trial, that kind of
he said no, actually that moviehad nothing to do with him.
Parents because and we'll getto that but um, the interesting
thing with this family is thataround town they were known as a
(19:10):
quote nice, normal family.
They were very religious,outwardly kind.
They would hold a prayer huddleon Sunday morning.
So in 1973, installed a statueof St Joseph, the patron saint
of families and fathers, holdingbaby Jesus on their front lawn,
um which there's picturesonline of that, if you can see
(19:31):
it.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Um, that's when the father got very, very into
hearing voices from God, andespecially St Joseph.
Well, he would speak to thatstatue, from what I understand
which is a way to butcher her,the father.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I'm sorry senior.
And around that same time,butch was actually handing out
statuettes of that same saint tohis coworkers, telling them,
quote nothing can happen to youas long as you wear this and
quote uh, this was also of StJoseph, which I also find
interesting that if his wife isthe one that's connected to the
mob, I'm shocked that he wouldbe beating her.
(20:06):
I mean, granted, it's theseventies, but um, uh, you know,
I would think that the hisfather-in-law would, uh, that's
right, give you a ton of money.
If you don't stop beating mydaughter, I'm going to kill you.
Um, so I find that interestingand that's how we'll we'll get
later into all the differenttheories.
(20:26):
So one of the reasons why thepolice believe that butch killed
his father first was that inOctober 1974, he was, uh, butch
was entrusted by his family'sdealership with depositing
approximately the bank.
But butch, because he was a crapof a human being, um, he felt
(20:49):
he wasn't earning enough inwages and he devised a plan with
his friends to stake, to stagea fake robbery and steal the
money for themselves.
And of course, um, his plan fellapart and when the police
arrived at the dealership toquestion him, he um, uh, right
with the authorities, eventhough his father knew he had
(21:11):
taken the money and he actually,ronald senior, interrogated his
son about the robbery and butchthreatened to kill his father,
um, during that whole situation,and so that was in October, and
then they were dead November,the November the 13th, and
supposedly what the policebelieve happened was that, um,
(21:34):
he took his rifle and he enteredhis parents' rooms first where
he fadely shot the both of them,and then he went back to his
four siblings rooms and murdered18 year old was Dawn, she was
18, 13 year old Allison, 12 yearold Mark and nine year old John
, matthew.
(21:54):
And then he actually took ashower afterwards, his clothing
and gone in a pillowcase andleft for work, ditching the
evidence in a storm, which wasone of the things about the case
when the psychiatrist went onthe stand because he tried to
claim insanity because he washearing voices, but the
(22:18):
therapist was like, no, becauseof the fact that he was able to
shower change and get rid of hisevidence.
He knew what he had done waswrong, so that actually really
messed up his kind of defense.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
As a quote A lot of this case in the beginning,
certainly with the allegationsand the talk and some proven
facts, given what's the mother'sname again, forgive me, louise,
louise's condition, and alwayswearing sunglasses that remind
me of the Menendez brothers thiswas self-defense of years of
(23:02):
abuse and sexual assault towardsthem as kids growing up.
So there was a tinge of methinking like, oh, maybe that
kid I've led to it, but to takeit beyond your abuser, that's
what I don't understand.
They felt their mom wascomplicit, their father and that
(23:27):
menendez trial happened.
And then now you have this andyears earlier where I feel it
was heightened because therewere times when senior
threatened to cut him offfinancially.
He was married at the time,which was and didn't want them
to live alone.
He said you have to live in thehouse.
He also was very controllingover them.
(23:50):
So perhaps over time it justsort of built up.
I mean senior was obviously nosustain, but he did threaten his
own son.
He was asked to do a hit,actually by a senior of his
grandfather.
I mean we can get all into thislater.
(24:13):
Maybe I'm jumping ahead, butButch was loved, his grandfather
, senior's dad, uh, everythinggoing on.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
The idea was that which grandfather was, he wanted
to take Cause.
So Michael Brigante senior wasLouise's father and he was the
one that was connected.
He wasn't in the GiovanniGiovanni family but he was
connected to them, like he didwork with them, so he had
(24:44):
connections and senior had hisown ties so, for whatever reason
, it came out something abouthow we need to.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
He was asked basically to kill his
grandfather, whom Butch was veryclose to, and shows up, he puts
the gun on the table and he'slike my dad just asked me to do
this and I obviously can't dothis.
So you know he's happy becausehe has this great allegiance
with his grandson, but it's likenow, what do you do?
So senior definitely messed andtraumatized his family.
You know that comes up in thetrial as part of his defense.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
That comes out, yeah, so so William Weber was his
lawyer and now, um, he gave a1992 interview, um to not sure
who he gave the interview to,but he claimed uh, this is Butch
the Fayo, uh, who's in jailbecause he did get um, he did
(25:42):
get sentenced.
He said that he was advised byhis lawyer, william Weber, to
make up hearing voices, uh, tomake the story story sound more
attractive for future book andmovie contracts.
And as you remember, that wasthe 1977 movie, uh, the 1977
book that came out, um, so inthe trial it came out, there was
(26:06):
some the defense also said wasit?
Defense said that it wasimpossible, shooter, to have um
killed the whole family the waythat it was done.
There was a guy, a journalist,um, who wrote a book, um called
(26:27):
the night that the the Fayosdied, and his name was Rick
Osuna.
Now he had been put onto thecase earlier by.
I think he was working for um,no Entries, I think for A and E
or for like one of the channels,and he found a lot of
discrepancies in the actual case, because there's always been a
(26:48):
question of why didn't the kidswake up?
He didn't have a silencer, sowhy didn't the kids wake up to
the gunshots.
Why did they?
Um, how is it a person able tokill so many people so quickly
and so neatly?
Now um he that he had druggedhis family.
(27:09):
But yeah, the autopsies cameback.
There were no drugs found intheir system.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
So the forensic uh uh investigator found that the
bodies were most likely moved.
So you know, perhaps the kidswere able to get up, uh murdered
, and then their bodies areplaced back because everyone's
asleep, right.
So that's the only way that allof that.
So the theory is that eachmember of the family was killed
(27:40):
in their bodies.
In fact, seniors uh leg is kindof dangling off of the side of
the bed.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
You know, um, that's another idea.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You know, following the theory that there might have
been more than just one shooter, it's possible Someone's
helping move the bodies.
You know seniors.
A big guy, he was shot twice.
A lot of them were shot twice.
The first shot, uh, just kindof get him up in the adrenaline.
He's going after his son andthen his son shoots him again
(28:13):
and then he's like I got to gethim to bed.
He's a huge guy.
How did he have help, or did hehave help?
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Right, um, so I.
So originally he actually hadanother lawyer.
Um, in 75, um, jacob Siegfriedwas his lawyer and he motioned
the court to be permitted theright to examine, inspect, copy,
photograph or make and takephotostopic copies of the
original notes of the arrestingofficers.
(28:42):
Um, he felt that the uh, thedefendant was deprived of a
preliminary hearing and um, hewas really trying to find a way
to put it like holes in theprosecution's case.
Unfortunately, the court didn'tdeem that these items were
(29:06):
necessary for Butch's defense,which I found interesting.
And so judge John Jones, hedenied the request.
And then that's when Siegfriedum filed a notice of defense of
mental disease or defect for hisclient.
Um, he then this so it wasactually, but strangely enough,
(29:27):
butch did not want his sanityquestioned and he threatened to
strangle Siegfried Um.
And that's around the time thatMichael Brigante, senior, uh,
he had already like spent$40,000 on attorneys.
He actually said I've heardthis guy, nick Osuna's book, uh,
(29:47):
quote, sweetheart, your dime isplayed out, end quote.
And he pulled the court and hegot a court appointed attorney.
And this is where um WilliamWeber comes in, on July 7th 1975
.
Um, he was court appointed toButch and he was the one that,
(30:08):
uh, we find out, orchestratedthe Lutz's um moving into the
house and having all of thisquote unquote, so they could
sell books.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And let's keep in mind the name of the house,
given by uh, the family was highhopes, right, right.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Um there you go High hopes.
Yeah, the Lutz's move in andthey, um, they, you know, they
claim it's haunted and I thinkthey managed to stay like seven
months um there.
And then they strangely get abook deal and this is where the
(30:54):
warrants come in.
The warrants, like, come intothe house and see if they can,
um, talk to the entities whichthey believe are the, um, the
murdered kids, um, and then thebook gets written.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So what understand the?
The Lutz is a financialposition, but the house, went on
, was on the market for half itsprice, right, uh, but
apparently they didn't even have, uh, they weren't in a
financial situation to even geta loan.
So that's always been a weirdinterest Like how, how were they
able to move in?
(31:31):
And then the question remains,did they?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
get some of the publisher?
I actually have the answer tothat.
So, um, and this is from isthat, um, william Weber sent a
book contract to the Lutz'ssaying that, um, he had created
a corporation and Kathy andGeorge Lutz would receive 12% of
(31:58):
the shares of this corporation.
Um, when this book was going tobe written, wow and so, um, wow
, so they, how?
I just 12%, they wanted 50%.
And so, um, they, the Lutz's,were the ones who, uh, picked
(32:19):
the author, jay Anson, of thebook, and, um, they got a
lucrative 50-50 splits.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And then, uh, they for the mortgage and they're
able to buy the house.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Yeah, I, they said that.
Um, there was also that werewritten in the New York Sunday
news and good housekeeping.
Um, and they were based on theexperiences that Lutz's, weber
and Hoffman brainstormed inJanuary 1976.
Um, so he so Hoffman, who wasthe original writer on this, um,
(33:00):
before they went with Jay Anson, he was the one who wrote those
articles so sued against himand they got um, did they
actually win?
They actually went for $4.5million against Hoffman because
he had written those articlesand meanwhile they were working
(33:22):
with Jay Anson on the actualbook.
Um, they that was dismissed.
Um, but they did get.
Did it get money from the bookbecause it did very well and
there was lots of lawsuits forpeople trying to essentially
(33:47):
profit off of them.
And it came like they actuallysaid that most of the book was a
work of fiction and it reliedon large part of on upon the
suggestion was the attorney.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
But the Give me, did they move in only 28 days after
the murder?
Um, did you find that out?
I'm not sure.
Or did they sell the houseafter 28 days of being in there?
Um, I think that was inNovember 28th, but I can't
recall if that relates to them.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Yes, they moved in 13 months after the DeFeo murders
had occurred.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Ah, okay.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
And on December 18th 1975.
Okay.
Now so they in the book.
They claimed that they had apriest come in to bless the home
to essentially their system,but he came to sprinkle the
(35:01):
water and then he, he supposedlyheard the ghosts himself.
And then, you know, there wasfrom the book.
They claimed they felt strangesensations.
So supposedly in the book, theyfelt that in the book that the
(35:24):
couple started beating theirchildren, that they became very
violent with their kids and then, and so they claimed that the
house was doing it, and so theylived in.
I think they lived in the housefor 28 days.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, okay, yeah, um, and then they moved out.
It's like dope and black stuff,right, like dripping from the
walls.
Yeah, yeah, it's outside thewindow.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
So just yeah, exactly .
So the family actually went ona nationwide tour to promote the
book as their true story and Ibelieve they had, because they
had 50% of the profits from thebook.
I don't know how much moneythey got from that $80 million,
but everybody made quite a bitof money on this.
(36:13):
But going back to the actualtrial, so in the book Horrific
Homicides, a judge looks back atthe Emmetttyville Horror
Murders by Thomas M Stark.
They, the prosecution, hadbrought in a psychologist by the
name of Dr Harold Zolan and heinterviewed Butch DeFeo for five
(36:35):
hours and concluded, like wetalked about, that he was in his
right mind when he killed hisfamily and he actually diagnosed
with Butch DeFeo withanti-social personality and that
he claimed that he knew thekillings were wrong and he tried
to hide the evidence, like wespoke about.
And when Zolan said he spentthe five hours with DeFeo, he
(36:57):
noticed that he had all thecommon characteristics of
anti-social personality disorder.
So they include low frustrationlevel, easily aroused, frequent
explosive conduct, a desire toget his own way, getting into
the norms of society.
He had little capacity to feelguilt, self-centered and having
(37:19):
disregard for the feelings ofothers, self gratification in
his conduct and he really wantedto be the big man and had like
a macho attitude.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Which is all probably inherent.
I mean that's a nurture right.
If you're surrounded in thismafioso world where you have
members of your family that arelike bit players in that, just
like shady behavior, you bearwitness to domestic abuse.
I mean I, you know, I thestem's gotta stem a lot from
(37:51):
that.
And how to deal with life likethe trauma.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, exactly, and he believed that because this
personality and his rebellionagainst his demanding father
that was the cause of theshooting.
He also didn't believe that themovie Castle Keep had anything
to do with the shootings andthat was the movie that was shot
before he killed, before hekilled the thing.
So now Rick Osuna's book comesout and he actually felt that he
(38:20):
did a lot of investigation.
His book, as I said again, itwas called the Night that the
Faos Died and he felt there wasokay.
So there was a question at onepoint during the trial, but the
sister was the one that killedtheir siblings.
So he essentially said thatDawn, she wanted to escape to
(38:44):
Florida with her boyfriend andher parents were like,
absolutely not.
So she was the one that came upto Butch and said I know you
hate dad.
I don't like them either.
I wanna go run off with myboyfriend.
Let's kill our parents.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Let's do this.
So Bidens said, yes, we'regonna kill the parents.
And then, so he kills theparents and then he comes to the
other rooms and he has foundthat Dawn has killed their
siblings because she didn't wantany witnesses and he's so
horrified by the fact that shekilled these young kids that he
(39:23):
kills her.
So that was one of the defensesthat he kind of.
Again, he kept his stories.
So that was one of the thingsfor doubt that they were trying
to do.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
And self-defense being another thing.
But again going back to thebodies being moved, so if you do
follow that theory and she isstanding up and they're arguing,
she's not killed in bed,sleeping, her head is not on a
pillow, so but that's again, ifwe follow that as what actually
(39:59):
and now the other thing is thatthere was also and his pals were
there.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, that his pals were there and that they were in
some place, that they were insome way also responsible.
But there was he.
I mean, if you wanna read thebook, it's fascinating.
There was a.
They had gotten a.
I think I don't know if it wasDefense had brought in an
(40:29):
investigator from New York Cityto look at the crime scene and
he was adamant that there was noway that there was only one gun
used and that there was onlyone shooter.
He felt that there had to be atleast three.
Wow, wow.
But again like, in the end,butch was convicted of first
(40:50):
degree murder.
He died in jail.
He stayed in jail.
He, as I said, claimed that allof the money for the book and
everything was all Weber andthat Weber was the one that told
him to like.
We said earlier that he heardvoices.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Is on a personal level.
Do you feel that this couldhave led to a mistrial?
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I mean, yeah, there was enough evidence.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
But just like a conflict of interest in legal
counsel.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Right.
Well, his book, rico Zonas book, was said that in the crime
scene because he was able to getcrime scene photos that the
blood stains were in places thatdid not add up with the story
that the, the Faos, were allkilled in their beds, like you
were talking about Right, andthen there was a bullet with a
(41:51):
different caliber from theMarlin rifle in the marital
bedroom.
There was also a lot of policebrutality in South Oak County
and again, this is the 70s.
So he feels that Rico Zonasclaimed that Butch's confession
was obtained under torture.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
They beat him.
They beat him yeah because they.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
And then, you know, the prosecutor and the police
also admitted on severaloccasions that the crime would
have required three people.
Oh, and the retired policedetective was named Herman Race
and he reached the sameconclusion.
But you know, everybody wantedswift justice and they're like
dude.
You were the one that did itand because he had changed the
story so many times, they didhim.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
You know they say that that evening earlier in the
evening I guess, perhapsperhaps before bedtime, although
no one went to bed that seniorreally beat the whole family
that night.
He was really.
He made threats towards Dawn'sboyfriend and at one point she
(43:08):
even takes a kitchen knife andshe takes it out of her hands.
They continue to fight.
Butch is watching the wife iscompletely beat down and he got
really upset with her becausethey had such a close
relationship and he felt thatshe was just so Basically so
complicit to a point that shewas beat to a pulp.
(43:30):
And then when Butch pushed himover, she runs over to him to
make sure he.
Butch sees that and just hassuch a bad reaction Like how can
my mom check on him, make surethat he's all right?
So there was a lot of turmoilthe evening of the 13th, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Now and, to be fair, in the book it's not supposed to
be a mouthpiece for Butch atall, like the author says that
he's.
You know there's discreditedquotes, so it's not like Butch
could potentially have done it.
(44:14):
It was just that he felt thatthere were so many issues with
the trial, like did other peopleget away with murdering this
family was his thing and hisversion?
I'm looking for that now.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
She has an investigative journalist who dug
deep.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
And they apparently told him and I believe Butch
said himself that he felt saferin jail, like he was finally
sitting on the cot, likeeveryone was like right this is
the replacement.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
So.
So Rick Osuna's version ofevents was that the friend,
bobby Kelski, which he found inthe bar, killed Ronald and
Louise, and Don was the one whokilled the children, and Butch
was so horrified that he killedDon.
So that's the author's kind ofhis idea of what happened.
(45:15):
Obviously, butch went to prisonfor this, so he was the one who
was found guilty of all ofthese murders.
And then again Weber, weber.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
So Lorraine and Ed Warren actually did a seance in
the house, and they weren'talone there were a lot of, a lot
of different mediums and ghostspeakers, or however you call it
, supernatural hunters that werethere and there were film crews
.
Like everyone was surrounded.
It was a scene.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Yeah Well, I mean again, it's like I can't imagine
the horror of an entire familykilled and then all of a sudden
you have all of the craziness ofthe supernatural and now it's a
haunted house.
I mean, that's just catnip forpeople.
So.
So that is the harrowing,horrifying case of the DeFeo
(46:16):
family and then, how you know,one of the most famous horror
movies of all time, from thelawyer and a family who were
kind of ready to cash in, and Iguess there was also a priest
that was actually defrocked byhis diocese for participating in
(46:37):
this whole thing as well.
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Well, I'm liking on this fellow's name.
You know I've been deep divingas you have.
You know, in our styles youtend to go more for the print
and the reading and I'm watchingin docs.
They do mention that there was,in addition to all that body
(47:01):
moving.
They felt that he, you know he,kept claiming his innocence
which may point to, like thissort of outer body experience,
and I think that was the gatewayin the springboard for all this
.
You know all the houses, I hadsome mental issues, but if this
(47:22):
guy has mental issues obviouslyprior to and he did, obviously
sociopath, and that was read andyou know, packaged as him being
haunted and the house beinghaunted, and that's what I find
so interesting and it's just themagic of Hollywood, you know,
just taking over these.
(47:44):
I just can't, I just can'tbelieve a legal but arrange such
a thing.
And in the documentary theyshow a scene with the Lutz is
sitting down on a table withWeber drinking wine, discussing
how the spoke will be great.
It's important people for peopleto know this, but you know the
you know, the warms go in thereand these folks go in there and
(48:07):
it just doesn't feel.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
And you have a franchise.
And you have a franchise bornwhich in I was just reading an
article in 2022.
So that's last year straight toDVD releases based on the
Emoryville case Emoryvilleuprising, emoryville Bigfoot and
Emoryville Karen are all we'resupposed to have been released
last year.
So the franchise is still going.
(48:30):
And you know, butch DeFeo diedin prison, george Lutz is dead
as well, and people are stillgoing off Ocean Avenue.
I mean, there's been lots offamilies that have lived there
since with no paranormalactivity.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
They do claim that Bobby, the pal that was suspect,
that was in you know theplayroom or wherever they were,
his friend Bobby, that they'vegot Bobby Klusky, so he just
sort of jet and no one knewwhere it was and it's believed
that he moved and someone who'sfriends and with he and that
(49:14):
whole group.
So recognize him on the streetand was like Bobby and he was
like I'm sorry, I think I'mbeing confused for someone else
and just continue walking, butit was him.
So he really distanced himselfand it makes you wonder, like
you know what.
Did he play a role in this?
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Yeah, exactly, um, rickos, I'm pronouncing his name
.
I'm probably not pronouncinghis name right, but the book
itself kind of.
I mean, he interviewedeverybody at the time and got
lots of records and so I kind ofwonder, like you know, was he
(49:57):
Rickos sooner?
Like, was he right that it wasan affair of three people?
Who who did this and not?
And not just him.
And you know, it's interesting,we didn't even mention Darrell,
geraldine the pharaoh, who wasthe ex wife of butch.
But there was a question aboutwhen they actually got married.
(50:18):
Where was it?
Did they get married in the 70s, like butch claimed, or did
they actually get married in theearly 80s?
And so there's been lots ofquestions about that as well.
So so, yeah, that go ahead.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
He had senior was again, we really get the
listeners, I think should reallyknow him for the background of
all this the kind of guy thatthe pharaoh senior really was.
He was physically very big,commanded the room and just
spoke to tons of differentpeople and he just had so many
(50:58):
ties and would sneak out moneyfor this and that, you know, the
Cadillac business was doingwell, but then the mafia said,
hey, this place is getting toohot, take over this dealership.
So he, he felt like the man andI think consequently so did
young butch.
Like you know, this is kind ofcool and you know my grandfather
(51:18):
is in on this and my wife'sfather is in on this.
So you know, I feel this whole,you know, grander than that.
And that's all before.
He's 23 years old when thishappens.
So you got to imagineeverything that's around him in
(51:40):
this weird community of.
I mean, it's when the mob isreally in New York, especially
just like at its height, and youknow to be involved in that and
being asked to kill your owngrandfather by your dad.
This is no justification oranything for what happened, but
(52:01):
clearly a case where he shouldhave taken his meds.
You should perhaps.
You know, with all these caseswe discussed, couldn't got,
could have got a little morehelp.
But so what do you think?
Do you think?
Well, I have a few.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Before we go to that I actually totally forgot on.
I found on a very interestingfacts that came out from the
book that he actually he figuredout that they were lies, that
they were myths.
So One of the myths in the bookwas that the shine cock Indians
resided in Amityville and theyactually did not reside anywhere
(52:40):
near Amityville because theLong Island Indians were the
Montauk nation.
Yeah, that 112 Ocean Avenue wasan Indian sanitarium where the
mad and dying would be leftexposed the elements to die.
That there's actually no recordthat there was ever an Indian
(53:01):
burial ground or a sanitarium onOcean Avenue.
And Rick spoke to a Long IslandNative American expert, john
Strong, saying that the Indiangroups lived along the tidal
bays and that's yeah, so I thinkin Long Island.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah, you're right, yeah, and Suffolk County is a
Long Island.
And I'm interesting too, becauseyou know where all these rumors
started by those believing thatthe house is haunted.
And what I was going to pointout earlier was and maybe you
know this fellow's name, butthere was a guy out there who
just disproved everyone'ssupernatural abilities and
(53:42):
mediums and, in fact, thewarrants.
I believe he was on a showwhere this is a you know, I can
bend a spoon.
No, you can't.
So can I.
So he was one of these peoplewho were like this place is not
haunted, this place isn'thaunted.
This was a terrible tragedythat happened.
There's no explanation for it.
And at first everyone was like,ooh, the warrants are there.
(54:03):
Ooh, there's their trying toexercise the place.
But then they realized, yeah,this is kind of a hoax.
And that became a huge item inthe news.
Yeah, that kind of took overthe news cycle, the fact that
this book is actually it's false.
It's false, it's been provenfalse.
Speaker 1 (54:23):
Yeah, so another thing in the book the original
Amityville horror book a witchnamed John Ketchum escaped from
Salem, massachusetts during thewitch trials and built his house
on or near the famousAmityville house to continue his
devil worship and that it wasreported that his body was
property of 112 Ocean Avenue.
And so there was a citizennamed John Ketchum that lived in
(54:48):
Ipswich, massachusetts, and hesettled in Huntington Township
on Long Island, but he was arepresentative of the local
government and was not a witchand was actually a rather
prominent figure in Huntingtonuntil his death in 1697.
So there's never anyinformation of him being a witch
.
Another claim in the book thatthe famed Amityville house
(55:13):
resides on an ancient cemeterythat was abandoned or cursed,
and that is also false.
There was never a reporterindication of any cemetery near
that property and the owners ofthe original house at 112 Ocean
Avenue had to move their housedown the street because they
were plagued with supernaturalproblems.
(55:33):
That was on.
Moynihan purchased the propertyat 112 Ocean Avenue from Annie
Ireland in 1924.
They needed a bigger homebecause they grew in size, and
so they moved their smallcottage down a matter of a
couple of hundred yards andlived there until the
construction was completed, sothat was not true.
(55:54):
And then there was also the redroom with the gateway to hell.
And there was the red room wasactually nothing more than a
little area underneath thestairway.
Children stored their toys orused as storage.
It no longer exists because thecurrent owner renovated the
basement and constructed over itand so that was never a thing.
(56:15):
And they claim that theAmityville horror movie could
not be filmed in the real housebecause the crew was too scared.
And actually the village ofAmityville viewed the ghost
story as a hoax and refused toallow the film crew to film in
their community, so they deniedshooting permits there.
(56:39):
And then also in the book, kathyLutz has three dreams in the
Amityville horror about LouiseDeFeo.
First, that Kathy Lutz wakes upscreaming because she saw that
Mrs DeFeo died of a gunshotwound to the head.
She was shot in the head, kathyscreamed.
The second dream consisted ofMrs DeFeo's DeFeo plot at St
(57:00):
Charles Cemetery and re-intimedin Brooklyn.
And then the last dreamconsisted of Mrs DeFeo making
love to the painter of the DeFeoportraits.
So first, mrs DeFeo died fromtwo gunshots to the upper body
and it was nowhere near her heador neck.
Second, the Brigantes nevermoved Mrs DeFeo's body from the
family plot because they wantedLouise with her children and
(57:25):
that was, and there was neverany.
There was never any affair.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
So those were the myths.
Yeah, he was really upset with,he was paranoid seeing her was
that she was having an affair?
Also interesting to point out,you mentioned the Beryl Grounds
and the sacred Native AmericanIndian Grounds.
Very Poltergeist.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Right, exactly, I was thinking of the same thing.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
Also, one other note is that Louise was, when found
murdered, was clutching onto aheart necklace that she had,
which at one point she startedwearing in place of her cross,
which I believe can really kindof upset senior, because you
know they went to church.
(58:20):
She said I'm not wearing this,I'm just going to wear the harp
now.
And so I saw one of thosehorrible pictures in her body
she's clutching onto the harp.
Speaker 1 (58:32):
That is amazing.
So you guys watch.
If you haven't seen it before,watch the Amon andville Horror
or any of its sequels, and nextweek we will have another very
fun true story Not very fun, butinteresting.
Thanks for asking.
Yeah, Halloween type was a truestory.
(58:53):
So thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Wait, wait wait, wait , wait, Dominica.
What do you think?
Oh, what do I think.
Was it demons?
Did he act alone?
Did he have help?
Speaker 1 (59:03):
Definitely not demons .
I'm thinking he I don't know, Imean this journalist the fact
that a detective said itcouldn't have.
I kind of wonder about that,but I'm not sure, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
I do agree that there was at least one other person.
There's no way these bodies allcould have been moved, moved so
quickly.
Speaker 1 (59:30):
Well, especially when you talk about Bobby Klusky and
how he disappeared.
I mean, that's definitely.
That makes me think thatthere's something going on with
that.
Speaker 2 (59:39):
Like he wasn't killed , which I find interesting, you
know.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
Yeah, okay, well, happy October, best month of the
year, and we will see you nextweek.
Thanks, why can I not find howto stop?
Oh, there it is.
(01:00:04):
Stop, move.
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