March 4, 2025 • 59 mins
Join us on Donor Diaries as we welcome Dr. Harry Wilkins, CEO of Gift of Hope, who transitioned from a 36-year career as a trauma surgeon to leading an organ procurement organization in 2020. With his unique perspective as both a physician and an industry leader, Dr. Wilkins offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at the complex and deeply personal world of deceased organ donation. From the moment of injury to the life-changing decisions families face, he sheds light on the critical role OPOs play in guiding and supporting donor families through the process.
A Chicago native, Dr. Wilkins shares how his childhood fascination with car mechanics unexpectedly led him to a career in surgery, a path shaped by his family's strong values of faith and service. Now, he is driven by a bold vision: a future where no one dies waiting for an organ. He discusses the transformative potential of xenotransplantation, 3D-printed organs, living donation, and emerging advancements in organ preservation—what he calls a growing set of tools in the transplant toolbox.
Throughout our conversation, Dr. Wilkins highlights the dedication of his team at Gift of Hope and their relentless work to save lives every day. He also explores the importance of dispelling myths about organ donation, increasing public awareness, and fostering a culture where donation is the norm.
This episode is an eye-opening look at the challenges and breakthroughs shaping the future of deceased organ transplantation—and the innovative solutions that could one day eliminate transplant waitlists. Tune in for an inspiring and informative discussion with one of the field’s most passionate advocates.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Donor Diaries, a podcast that explores
how people are changing livesthrough the powerful act of
living donation.
Tune in to discover howkindness, love and simple acts
of giving are transforming livesevery day.
Welcome back Today.
(00:33):
We have a very special guest onDonor Diaries Dr Harry Wilkins,
the CEO of Gift of Hope, whichis the organ procurement
organization that serves theregion I live in.
Organ procurement organizationthat serves the region I live in
.
Not only is he a trauma surgeon, but Harry's also a leader in
the world of organ donation,working every day to save and
(00:53):
change lives.
He's letting us peek behind thecurtain of an organ procurement
organization to see what reallyhappens in the process of organ
donation.
Dr Wilkins is one of those rarepeople who brings both heart
and expertise to his work, and Ican't wait for you to hear his
insights.
Well, welcome to Donor Diaries,harry.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thank you, lauren, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I think you're one of the most distinguished guests
I've ever had on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, that means you might have not had very many
distinguished people on yourpodcast, but I appreciate it,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
No, I mean in learning about you and your
career and your history and whatbrought you to Gift of Hope.
You just have an incrediblyimpressive career helping people
.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Oh well, thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
One of the things I read about you is that you like
system changes.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yes, yes, I can expand on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You came to Gift of Hope in 2020.
I think coming to an organprocurement organization in 2020
, probably with that comessystem change and you can only
imagine what you walked into.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, there were a lot of system changes in 2020
for everybody.
So I think I kind of drankwater from the fire hose a
little bit.
So I was a trauma surgeon for36 years, up until October 6,
2020.
And then, october 19, I becamea CEO.
So that was a big change atfirst.
But then in COVID and thosewere some very strange times we
(02:24):
went from this very one-on-one,in-person sort of thing to we
started doing a lot of things onthe phone and over the Teams
and Zoom and those sorts ofthings, and that was a huge
change, because I think this is,even though we talk a lot about
statistics and things like that, this is a very personal,
one-to-one sort of thing, andthat was very difficult to do
(02:47):
when you didn't have thatconnection.
So we had to change a lot ofprocesses.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I bet I can only imagine.
And what our listeners don'tknow is that I just got a
90-minute tour of your facility.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Oh, yes, yes.
Well, that always injects metoo, because it's still a
fascinating, fascinating thing.
I worked with a transplantsurgeon a heart transplant
surgeon in Kansas City, and Iwas not a transplant surgeon
myself, but I would accompanyhim into the operating room
sometimes to watch it, and hewould put the heart in, and when
it started beating again, therewas a time when he would just
(03:20):
stop and say no matter how manytimes I do this, just stop and
say no matter how many times Ido this, it's just a miracle,
and that's the thing.
When I was showing you intouring, I think every employee
that you met talked aboutwhatever their role was.
We met a transportation guy, wemet a family services person,
we met a vice president, we meta lab director, and I think you
(03:42):
could see it too.
All of them just have thatwonder about what they do every
day.
People that have been here 12years, 21 years, 37 years and
they still have that wonder.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
One of the people we met that really made an
impression on me was thetransport person who said it was
his 637th.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Oregon transport today.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And you'd only been here seven years.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Right.
And not only that, but you lookat his face and there's that
pride of knowing that this iswhat he was doing.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
And I think that's what's so unique about this
business.
Every single person in thisorganization knows what their
job is in terms of making lifehappen, making transplant happen
, and I think that's really inmy position.
It's very fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
I can only imagine, yeah, and can we back up a
little bit, harry, and can youjust explain to our listeners
what is an OPO?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yes, so OPOs are organ procurement organizations.
There's 55 of them throughoutthe country and every organ
procurement organization OPO 55of them throughout the country
and every organ procurementorganization OPL has a
designated service area called aDSA.
It's not always along statelines, but the entire country is
covered by an organ procurementorganization.
(04:59):
We are charged under federalcontract with overseeing the
entire donation process, fromthe time that an injury occurs
that causes death to a patientall the way to taking care of
the donor family after thetransplant happens.
So we receive the referral fromthe hospital.
(05:19):
We then evaluate the potentialdonor for their suitable medical
suitability of it.
After that, if they're medicallysuitable, then we check to see
if the person's a registereddonor.
Then we let the family knowwhat that means.
If they're not registered, wetalk with the family to gain
consent to get donation.
(05:39):
If we are successful, then wemanage the donors and so that
the organs are usable, Then weoversee allocating those organs
according to a very specificalgorithm that is set forth by
the United Network on OrganSharing, UNOS.
Once we've found a home for allthe organs, then we coordinate
(05:59):
all the teams that have tosurgically recover those organs
and then we oversee distributingthose to the respective
transplant centers.
After that happens, we're stilltaking care of the donor family
afterwards.
Donor families and donorrecipients want to know who they
are.
We coordinate that becausewe're trying to be respectful of
(06:19):
both.
There are some donors whoreally don't want to know
anything, or if they don't wantto know, they may not want to
know, right then.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The donor families you mean.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
The donor families?
They may not.
You know, everybody grievesdifferently.
Some want to know right away,some don't want to know at all,
some may not want to know for 20years and everything in between
.
Some recipients actually havesurvival guilt.
They don't want to knowanything about the donor because
they know something bad hashappened and it's just very
(06:51):
individual.
So it's always best for us tosort of be the go-between
between the donor family and therecipients.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And you have a whole team of people.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
A whole team of people.
A whole team of people Not asmany as you would think that
would need to do that work, butthey're very, very special
people to do that work.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
How often do you have somebody who's in intensive
care and they're a registereddonor and their family, for
whatever reason, don't want todonate their loved one's organs?
Is that a common thing thathappens?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It is common I don't have a specific number on it.
I would say most times it isnot an issue, and it's because
of how our staff approach thesefamilies, but there are times
when they are just adamant thatthey do not care what their
loved one said.
They're not going to have theirloved one donate.
Those become pretty difficultcases, and, again, it's not that
(07:49):
common.
When it does, though, we'refaced with a pretty difficult
choice, because the wholepurpose of the first person
registry is that you have theright of self-determination and,
obviously, if you're in aposition where you are a donor,
you're not in a position to saywhether or not you're going to
(08:10):
do it or not.
So what you do is you sign upto say, on the occasion of my
death, I want to be a donor.
That decision is a legallybinding decision.
So we always stress when youmake that decision, tell your
family members about it, becauseit's really what our job is to
honor the donor's wishes.
(08:31):
If those wishes are at odds withthe family's wishes, the
donor's wishes prevails.
It's governed by gift law, soby informed consent.
If I'm getting ready to do asurgical procedure on you, I
inform you about the risks andbenefits of the procedure and
then you make that decision.
With gift law it's like a will.
(08:51):
If you have a favorite car thatyou want to go to your cousin
and you put that in your will.
When you die, that willprevails.
It's your last will andtestament.
That's gift law and that's howit works with organs.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Wow.
Well, I kind of thought that Iwas a good myth buster.
But I understood that if I'm anorgan donor and my husband says
, no, I don't want to donate herorgans, that he got the final
say.
But that's not the case.
There's gift law.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
That is not the case.
So the first personauthorization if you are an
adult and you sign up to be aregistered donor, that is
legally binding and that takesprecedence over any other next
of kin, husband or anybody else.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, that's good to know.
So, really, what people need todo is tell their loved ones
that they absolutely want todonate their organs, so that we
don't have a situation wherewe're saying the donor wants
this, but the family wantssomething else.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Right and I will expound on that a little bit.
It's not just telling yourfamily, it's number one
educating yourself about whatthat means, because a lot of
people don't know what being anorgan donor is.
I was at a registration eventlast year and we were at a table
answering questions and therewas a CNA, a certified nurse
(10:10):
assistant, and she said you know, I've always wanted to be a
donor, but I don't want peoplecalling me, asking me for my
organs all the time.
And I said that's not whathappens.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
That's just my talent .
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Right.
And then I explained to her theprocess and she's like oh, of
course, when you're gone, you'regone, right, there's nothing
(10:48):
left after that, but your lovedones.
What is your legacy going to be?
So, if you're not an organdonor, the end of your life is
the end of your story.
If you're an organ donor, theend of your life is the
beginning of another one someoneelse's story, and that becomes
part of your loved one's story,and so there's actually benefits
to your surviving loved ones aswell.
(11:10):
And then so that's why youreally want to make sure you've
registered that decision.
And then the third part is makesure your family knows that
this is what you want, and thatgives the family comfort.
One of the hard things, lori,is that when we talk to a family
of a patient who's notregistered and the family says I
just don't know what he wouldhave wanted to do now that
(11:34):
burden is on them.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
If they're registered and they've told them, the
burden is off.
This is what they wanted.
We're just going to proceed, sothat's why that's so important.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Can you tell me a story about a family who didn't
know what their loved one wantedand what happened?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
This was years ago.
I was in Texas and there was a19-year-old and the mother was
very young, the mother wasprobably 35, and single mother,
only child.
And this 19-year-old was in awreck, hit his head and became
brain dead and he wasn'tregistered, just didn't know if
he wanted to donate or not.
(12:13):
And so many of the friends ofthe kid were there and the
mother was trying to make thisdecision to do I donate his
organs or not.
And one of the friends said tohis mother you know, I've known
this guy all my life, we grew uptogether.
He goes, he would give theshirt off his back to any one of
(12:35):
us.
He goes.
I have no idea why.
He wouldn't want to dosomething good for somebody else
.
She started crying, she thankedhim, hugged him so much she
goes, you're absolutely rightand decided to donate.
But she agonized over thatdecision.
If he had signed up to be adonor, that would have just
taken that away from her.
And so it was a positiveoutcome.
(12:58):
But I always remember thatbecause you could see this
mother was just in such agonyand I happened to be sitting
there when the friend came and Ijust thought how much relief
you could just see the relief inher eyes and her whole
countenance when she knew thatthat's what his personality was.
But again, I think that waspretty much by luck that that
(13:22):
happened.
Registering to be a donor justtakes that away.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Wow, have you always been a registered donor yourself
?
I always have.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
But I was raised, I think I was raised in a
household where you just dowhatever you can to help people.
It's just that's the nature,and so my mother was very much
that way, all my brothers arevery much that way, and I've
always you know, always beenraised in faith that you know we
live life for the ever after.
(13:50):
I've always been of the opinionthat we are spiritual beings
enjoying a temporary humanexistence Once the body is gone.
This is not me, this is just myearthly vessel, so to speak.
Your meat bag.
It's just meat bag.
I don't know if I'd call itmeat bag but that's essentially
what it is, but it's just stuff.
(14:12):
Remember, man, that you aredust, and unto dust you shall
return.
Don't take your organs toheaven.
Heaven knows we need them hereand I've always, even as a kid,
even before I knew much aboutorgan donation.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I've always thought that Wow, Harry, can we talk a
little bit about your personallife and what?
Brought you to Gift of Hope.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Are you a Chicago guy ?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I am.
I'm a native Chicagoan andpeople always wonder why I'm not
used to these winters.
I will never get used to thesewinters.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I will never get used to these winters either, Harry.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I'm here my whole life, but I will never get used
to them.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
What part of Chicago are you from?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
South side of Chicago , so White Sox fan, not Cubs,
okay and I had five brothers.
We all grew up on the southside of Chicago and,
interestingly enough, my dreamas a child was to own a string
of service stations.
I loved working on cars, so Igrew up in the 70s, during the
muscle car era, and so, me andmy brothers, we used to.
(15:14):
One of the bonding things wecould do with my dad is we could
work on cars together, and so Ithought this is great.
You know, people come in in.
They've got this, something'swrong with their car.
We can fix it for them.
You know, you've helped them.
They feel good, I've had a goodtime working on the car and I
thought that's what I'm going todo.
And so in the late 70s, early80s, as they started getting
(15:38):
electronic transmissions and allall the, my mother, who was
very wise she died in 2011 andshe was a school teacher she got
me to see that the industry wasgoing to change quite a bit.
So shouldn't I just go and dosomething else?
I didn't know what else to do,and so surgery appealed to me,
(16:00):
because it's kind of likeworking on a car.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Is it though, harry, it kind of is Is tinkering in
your garage, kind of like doinga surgery.
It kind of is.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
It really kind of is.
So think about it A car is acollection of systems.
You know, we talked earlierabout how I like systems In a
car.
You've got the drivetrain,You've got the fuel and fuel
system, You've got the exhaust,the chassis that.
We've got the exhaust, thechassis, that's like.
The chassis is like orthopedics.
The fuel system is like the GIsystem.
The electrical system is likethe nervous system.
(16:29):
So it's basically just taking aset of systems that makes the
car work and then you can workon it.
And so that's what appealed tome about surgery.
I love that about surgery.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Somebody comes in, they've got appendicitis you
operate on them, take it out andthey're on their way.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Okay, so this started out as a dream to have a chain
of mechanic shops.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yes, okay, so that was the original dream.
That's amazing that your momkind of had the foresight of
what might happen with cars andthat a mechanic might be
different now than it was in the70s or 80s.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Well, it's really interesting.
And again, I think my mom had alot of foresight about a lot of
different things.
One of her special knacks wasshe could read trends and just
sort of foresee what's coming.
In the early 60s, when we werevery, very little and she saw
the turbulent times of the 1960s, she knew that with six little
(17:28):
black boys on the south side ofChicago, in the summertime this
was not good.
So in 1965, she bought a pieceof land in southwest Michigan 15
acres of land and said when weget out of school, I'm taking my
boys up to Michigan.
So we spent summers in Michigan.
Get out of school, I'm takingmy boys up to Michigan.
So we spent summers in Michigan.
And the 60s and 70s was not agood time to be on the south
(17:49):
side of Chicago getting intotrouble, but that was again part
of her foresight.
I feel the same way about thecoming changes in the organ
donation industry.
I feel like I have that sort offoresight that my mom had.
It feels the same.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Let's talk about that a little bit.
So the first thing I learnedabout you is that you actually
have a major interest inxenotransplant.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I do.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
So tell us a little bit about your 2030 vision for
organ transplant.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
The 2030 vision.
So it's kind of a catchy titleand it's very ambitious.
I want to harken back to the60s again, because I'm a child
of the 60s and in 1960, whenPresident Kenney, he said that
we will put a man on the moon bythe end of the decade.
With technology that does notexist, we don't know how it's
(18:37):
going to happen, but we know wewill do it by the end of the
decade, and we landed a man onthe moon in 1969.
In 2014, I was at a conferenceand all the different
alternatives to human deceasedorgans were coming up.
We have 3D printed organs.
We have have you ever heard ofde-cell re-cell?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I haven't.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So when you have an organ, you have the cellular
components and then you have thenon-cellular components.
So if you put a detergent onthat organ, you will basically
be left with this lattice workthat is, non-cells.
You can then take cells andgrow them on that lattice and
have a functioning organ.
That's called decellularization, resellularization.
(19:24):
You then have bioartificialimplanted organs and then you
have xenotransplants.
Xenotransplants means from onespecies to another.
Recently, you may have heard inthe news that there's been two
pig hearts that have beentransplanted into people and now
the latest kidney that has beenplanted into a human.
(19:45):
The kidney was modifiedgenetically, put into the human
and she is doing well two and ahalf months later off dialysis.
Two days ago, the FDA clearedthe way for the first trials
human trials inxenotransplantation In 2014,.
I said that we will get to zerowait list by 2030.
(20:08):
And here we are, at 2025.
I'm still holding out hope thatwe're going to get there, but
it'll be from the application ofall of these different things.
So xenotransplantation,bioartificial organs, which
basically means if you canimplant an artificial kidney
inside someone, the 3d printedorgans, that could become a
(20:30):
reality as well, and then thesegrown organs, these
decellularized organs that arenow repopulated with cells.
So I think about it.
Laurie is expanding the toolboxof available organs.
There's over 100,000 peoplewaiting for a transplant.
80% of them are kidneys.
Last year there were only28,000 transplants, and there's
(20:52):
more people at it.
So we have to expand how manyorgans are available, and let's
not even talk about livingdonation.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I was hoping you were going to bring that up for part
of the toolbox.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
So, as you know, living donation has been fairly
flat, but we know the potentialis out there.
So I think that's one of theother ways to expand the toolbox
Order procurement organizations.
Unfortunately and I'm hoping tochange that we don't really
harp on that era of donation,that way of donation before.
I think that's just another waythat we can expand that.
(21:26):
So when you start adding all ofthese things together, I think
we can literally wipe out thewait list by 2030.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
You really think we can do it by 2030?
Yes, I can't wait to play thisback in 2030, when living in a
nation is a thing of the past.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's right.
Let's put it in a time capsule.
And my vision is and I don'thave all the words, I won't get
the words right but basically Ienvision a day when nobody who
needs an organ will have to waitfor an organ and nobody will
die waiting for an organ.
Right now, about 17 people aday die waiting for an organ.
That's just unacceptable.
It's just unacceptable.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
It's a lot of needless suffering.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
It's a lot of needless suffering and, like I
always ask people, if you weretold today that you need an
organ, how long would you wantto wait?
No one would say three years orfive years or six years, but
that's what happens routinelynow.
So, without a wait list, Ithink that is a very admirable
goal and I think it's anachievable goal.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Harry, do people ever tell you to stay in your lane?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So when I think of an OPO, when I think of Gift of
Hope, one of the things I thinkabout and being on a tour with
you this morning, I actually gotto see people's remains coming
in so that their tissue could berecovered, and I know
statistically that one in athousand people die in a way
where they can get their organsrecovered.
(22:52):
And so when I see an actualbody of a donor coming into your
facility 999 people wanted todo that and couldn't so that is
like a lottery winner in termsof somebody who wants to donate
their organs and their tissueswhen they die, but most people
(23:13):
don't actually get to do thatright.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's a huge privilege and it's one of the reasons why
it's a privilege, it's aprivilege.
So last year we had a record.
We had 527 organ donors, whichis a record in the 40-year
history.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Thank you, but that represents 1,495 lives saved
because of those 526 organdonors.
We got 1,495 organs.
So for us, every opportunityhas to be maximized.
And of those 526, we actuallyapproached 802 families that
(23:48):
gave consent and then, for onereason or another, sometimes we
get what's called authorized butnot recovered.
So you get to the operatingroom and none of the organs are
usable, for whatever reason.
So we still have to maximizeevery opportunity that we have.
The ones that you saw today,those are tissue donors.
So, tissue donors, we have awhole lot more time and many
(24:10):
more people can be tissue donorsthan organ donors, but it's
still quite rare.
It's still quite rare.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So the opportunity to actually become a donor upon
death is very, very small.
I often look at it as you know.
You and I are kind ofapproaching the problem two
different ways.
Right, like you need to sign upa thousand people to get two
kidneys donated right and itmight be easier for me to go out
there and inspire somebody tobe a living kidney donor, right
(24:40):
so?
the numbers are very differentfor what you're doing and what
I'm doing.
Do you see it as an organprocurement organization's
responsibility to be lookingoutside of deceased donation to
solve the organ shortage?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
It's more than that.
It's more than that.
And when you say, stay in yourlane, I come at this from a
surgeon's mentality.
And of all the organprocurement organizations,
there's two others that havephysician CEOs.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So you're a very uncommon breed to be a surgeon
in an OPO and you can probablytalk shop with transplant
centers in a different way.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Do you ever stand in, too, to oversee what's going on
?
I?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
have.
It's very exciting.
It's very exciting, it's veryexciting.
But what I mean by coming at itfrom the surgeon's mentality is
I'm a trauma surgeon and so for36 years I've treated people
who have had traumatic injuries.
Most of those injuries arepreventable Gunshot wounds,
traffic crashes I refuse to callthem accidents.
(25:43):
They're all crashes, becauseusually if someone's in a crash,
there's an identifiable causewhich is preventable Speeding.
I never considered that Drivingon there's an identifiable
cause which is preventableSpeeding.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I never considered that.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Driving on, you know driving too close.
Whatever the case, yes, thereare some accidents, but most,
when you do a root causeanalysis, are preventable.
So, as a trauma surgeon, in mymind I call them crashes because
they are preventable.
As a trauma surgeon, the bestoutcome I can have for you is to
not have the incident in thefirst place.
(26:14):
So as a trauma surgeon, I'veworked in prevention of gunshot
wounds, violent crimes,improving cars, improving
streets All of those things havereduced the prevalence of
trauma.
Now Now change this over tokidney failure.
A lot of kidney failure isuntreated diabetes, untreated
(26:35):
hypertension.
So in my mind I have said thatour responsibility, if we really
want to get rid of the waitlist, you've got to work on
preventing it in the first place.
That's one way In my mind.
There's three ways to decreasethe wait list.
Number one is don't let themget sick in the first place.
Number three is to have themdie, which is unacceptable.
(26:57):
And the second is to get themall transplanted.
The classic organ procurementorganization's lane is to get
more organs for transplant.
I do believe we need to stepout of our lane to encourage
living donation, to encourageand support research that will
get xenotransplantation andbioartificial and all these
(27:17):
other alternative organ sources,and I also believe we have a
responsibility to promote goodkidney health.
So we do work with the NationalKidney Foundation, the American
Kidney Foundation, to try andpromote good kidney health, to
not have the wait list be solong.
So I think you use all yourtools at your disposal to get
(27:39):
rid of the wait list.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
That's a good way to look at it.
Can you tell me something thatGift of Hope is doing that other
OPOs might not be doing toincrease the number of tools in
the toolbox?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think that there's a lot of things, but, not having
a full understanding of whatall other OPOs are doing, I can
tell you what we're doing.
So one of the things that'sinteresting is by federal
contract.
There's certain things that wedo that aren't covered by
federal contract.
For example, there's some donorfamily support activities that
I think I told you on the tourtoday.
(28:14):
Our donor families need a lotof support and we feel that
that's one of our bigobligations.
It's not something that we'reunder federal contract to do,
but it's something we feel isvery important to do.
I think every OPO does thingsfor donor families.
April is Donate Life Month.
You'll see us have flagraisings at hospitals in honor
(28:35):
of our donor families all overthe city and in our service area
.
A lot of OPOs do that as well.
Research efforts so a lot ofthe research that I like to be
involved in are things likeperfusion.
I think I showed you earliertoday where kidneys were on
these little pumps and they wereputting the kidneys on the pump
(28:55):
.
That extends the usable life ofthose kidneys and lets us
transplant more kidneys.
We're constantly researchingperfusion technologies that will
extend organ capability.
Cryopreservation just coldstorage of organs we're starting
to investigate that as apossibility of getting organs to
(29:18):
be procured.
So different OPOs expenddifferent resources to have
research to try and make moreorgans available.
I don't know how many OPOs aredoing what type of research, but
that's an example of somethingthat Gift of Hope is doing to
support research and those sortsof things.
Community education gettinginto the community to try and
(29:40):
dispel myths about organdonation just to increase the
number of people who areregistered.
I know we do a lot of thateducation.
A lot of other OPOs do that aswell, but those are just a
couple of examples of thingswe're doing.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And do you do anything to promote living
donation?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Not as much as we should.
One of the things is and I wastalking with our vice president
of outreach about that, who'sworked with you before in the
past but I think that that'ssomething that we can do.
Typically, we've left that upto the transplant centers.
One thing that happened, Lori,is that COVID put a kibosh on a
(30:16):
lot of things that we were doing, and I think we're just now
starting to re-ramp up some ofthat.
You have a movie coming outthat's got to be very helpful,
and I think a lot of OPOs willbe able to use that movie to
help inspire living donation.
So I think, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And I'd be willing to bet that the people who are
signing the back of theirdriver's license and want to
donate upon death are probablymore likely to donate when
they're alive versus people whodon't right.
So if they're, willing to doone, they might be more likely
to be a living donor.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I think so, and I think the other thing is just
people haven't thought about itand having thought about it,
they may think why not?
This is a really really coolthing to do.
So again, that education partis really important to, not just
for living donation, but alsofor deceased donation as well.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
What resources would you like that you might not have
right now?
That would help Gift of Hope beable to get more people
transplanted.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Money.
I think some of these unfunded,like for instance,
xenotransplantation when thatstarts, insurance companies
aren't going to cover that rightaway.
And because I've actuallyvisited some of these facilities
where they do the geneticallymodified pigs, there is a lot of
private equity that is going into develop that and these are
(31:37):
for-profit companies.
They have to get therecuperation on their investment
, just like pharmaceuticalcompanies.
They spend a lot of money to dothe R&D to develop it and they
have to recoup that.
So when a new drug comes outit's very expensive.
I think the same thing willhappen with these other sources
of kidneys and and other organs.
(31:57):
I would love it if I had anunlimited amount of money where
I could pay for those untilinsurers picked it up.
We just don't have that.
I think it's going to take alot of outside funding,
philanthropic funding, to get itup and running to the point
where it's covered bygovernmental third-party payers
(32:17):
and insurers.
But as that scales I thinkthose costs will come down, just
like everything TVs have donethat.
If you think about the firstflat-screen TV you ever had, it
was like thousands of dollars.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yep, and now they're like $500.
$200 on sale at.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Walmart or something.
So I think as it scales it willcome down.
But I would like, as an organprocurement organization, to be
able to help offset those costsfrom the transplant centers,
because it's a very expensiveproposition.
Because it's a very expensiveproposition, I personally
(32:56):
believe that no one should benot afforded the care for health
care for not being able to pay.
So I would like that's oneresource I would like to have
available to help get that overthe hump you said it very well
is that you have to register1,000 people to get one donor.
That's a lot of work andunfortunately and you probably
heard it too we get thesenegative things about donation
(33:18):
in the press, which kind of setsus back, and we're constantly
fighting against that.
So I think that's a hardquestion to answer in terms of
what resources we have.
I would just want to get theword out better, by hook or by
crook.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
If everybody could have the tour I just had, I
don't feel like they'd be soinflammatory.
I mean this is the mostinspired group of people I've
ever met in a singleorganization.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And I think if you go to any organ procurement
organization, you would seesimilar sort of enthusiasm about
the process.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I mean, one of your employees told me that he's been
here for over 20 years and thathe's never had a vacation that
wasn't interrupted by having toassist in moving in Oregon
somewhere.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, yeah, and probably was happy to do it.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
And he was he did say that Probably happy to do it.
He wasn't complaining when hesaid it.
Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, so it's just.
It's just that type of work andwhen you meet these families,
if you've ever been presentwhere a donor family meets their
recipient, you'll never forgetthat in your life.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Can you tell me a story about that?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And I just heard this story yesterday.
I was almost crying reading theemail.
But five years ago there was ayoung woman in the southern part
of our state that was one monthpostpartum, had postpartum
depression, was staying with herparents and she took the child
in with her into the bedroom andshe overdosed.
(34:41):
She sent her parents a text atone o'clock in the morning.
The parents saw it, walked inon her.
The child was on her chestcrying.
The father was starting.
Cpr by the paramedics came.
She ultimately died.
The daughter, the woman, who was21 years old at the time,
donated her heart to a woman whogot transplanted here five
(35:04):
years ago.
So the woman who gottransplanted.
This is the month before COVIDhits February of 2020.
She was on the list for a long,long time.
This woman happened to be a 98%match for an organ which the
surgeon who transplanted saidshe's never seen that before.
So it was a perfect match.
(35:25):
The woman wanted to make surethat it was going to be
successful before she contactedthe donor family.
So, as the five-yearanniversary is approaching, the
woman finally decided I'm goingto go ahead and reach out to
Gift of Hope to connect with thedonor family.
She sends the letter.
Renata, who you met, gets theletter and she calls the donor
(35:49):
family saying we have the letter.
Do you want this?
Most times when our folks havecalled, the father has picked up
the phone, and this particulartime the mother picked up the
phone.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
So they'd called that family.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
before we always do we always check in with the
families.
You know how are you doing andeverything else, and most every
time they've called, thefather's picked up.
On this particular time, it wasthe middle of the day the
mother picked up the phone Firsttime ever.
She said that she saw a gift ofhope and just decided to pick
up the phone.
The reason she was home is thatit was the five-year
(36:24):
anniversary of her daughter'sdeath.
She was having a hard time atwork crying and they just sent
her home because she was justhaving a hard day.
That's when she got the phonecall.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
They read the letter and in the letter it said I
wanted to make sure I was okay,but I would really like the
opportunity to meet you.
We're having our five-yearanniversary this weekend.
They really quickly turned itaround and they met saturday.
Wow, the coordinator thathosted it took a picture of them
(36:57):
meeting and there's a minutelong clip where they're just
embracing and crying and it isso hard to watch because you can
just see both of them.
They both needed that and Iwasn't even present for that,
but it's so moving.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Did she get to listen to her daughter's heart?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yes, so she gets a stethoscope and she listens.
And then she pulls her sleeveup and on the inside of her
wrist she had tattooed the lastEKG strip of her daughter.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Wow, on her wrist, and it's just, I get goosebumps
even just relaying that andwhenever I see one of those
Facebook videos, like on thetrain or something, I just start
crying on the train listeningto somebody's heart or the
recipient walking the person'sdaughter down the aisle.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yes, and so when you have those types of connections,
it's such a personal thing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
It's so personal, it's so moving that you think.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Why can't everybody see this?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Nobody would be against donation if they could
just experience this.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
We need more stories out there like this, so people
can see this.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
You do.
You do Just understanding thateverybody thinks about donation
as benefiting the recipient.
It benefits so many more thanjust the recipient, because
everybody who witnessed that istouched by that.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
It's a silver lining.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
It's a silver lining, it's the ripple in the pond.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, ripple in the pond, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
It's like my daughter would say it's not the icing on
the cake, it's the whole cake.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
It's just fascinating .
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, so we met Renata and she works with
families who are having to makea decision about their loved
ones, and I gave her a letterfor my dad's donor family.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yes, I was very surprised by that.
That was very timely.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
That wasn't a coincidence.
I think that that was.
Oh, you knew, that was coming Idon't know, I just no, I didn't
know that that's who she was.
But I think it's pretty coolthat I had the letter and that I
got to give it to her.
So now she's going to call thefamily and say would you like
this letter?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yes, we have a letter .
We received a letter from therecipient family.
Would you like us to like this,pass that on.
Like, is she gonna do thattoday?
Probably, really, yes, wow,probably.
So let me flip the script hereand ask you so how did that feel
giving that letter?
You know?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
to renata.
That's a good question.
I have never written a letterand writing it was extremely
emotional and I didn't expectthat it was 2011.
I think about the family everyweek.
There's not a week that goes bywhere I don't think of them.
I know my dad's written letters, but I always kind of thought
(39:39):
that his letter trumped myletter.
And then I thought well, Icould write a letter.
Why can't I write a letter?
And what I was thinking is ishow I would feel if I was them
to receive a letter, and itwould make me very happy.
But I know not everybody can gothere right, emotionally they
can't go there.
But I'd like them to know thatall these years later we're
(40:00):
still very grateful and I thinkit could be a powerful
experience for them to see whatmy family has made of this
donation from them.
Because I look at, my dad'sdonor is the person who
initiated my kidney chain.
I didn't initiate it.
He did Because I wouldn't havedone it unless.
I was touched by transplant andit would make me feel better to
(40:23):
know that my loved one's deathhad this crazy ripple effect and
it has, I mean this has becomewhat my life is about.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Well, it will be interesting to hear the response
that you get from your letter.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I hope you do get a response.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
But it'll be interesting.
But just the possibility ofthat and I think for that
department in our organization Ithink that's what drives them
is they get to experience thisall the time?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
That's a happy call time.
That's a happy call?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
probably it's a happy call.
It's tough work, it's veryemotionally draining work and I
think it draws that type ofperson there.
They're just amazing people.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Do they have a chaplainbackground or psychology?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
A lot of them have social worker background child
life psychology.
We have a lot of them, somehave chaplain backgrounds as
well.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Wow, During our tour, you took me to a lab which is
unique to Gift of Hope that mostOPOs don't have.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the lab you have that?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
makes you unique.
I love talking about our lab.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I could tell you like touring the lab as well.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
I love the lab.
Well, first of all, I was not abasic scientist, but we did
have to have science.
We go through medical schooland you know we.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
And where were you, a surgeon, by the way?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
So I was.
I went to Northwestern OK, Iwas a six year med student,
which Northwestern has thisprogram where if you go to
medical school right after highschool, the first two years of
medical school will counttowards the completion of your
undergrad degree.
So, fun fact, I actually gotaccepted to medical school at
age 17.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Oh my God, that's because you didn't take recess
as a kid.
That's right.
You told me that you skippedrecess so you could start med
school at 17.
Lori is so amazing.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
I did not want to go to school.
I didn't like school.
I think that's a common myththat I must love school.
Because I've spent so much timein school, I wanted to be a
surgeon.
School was something I had todo to become a surgeon.
So I'm like I don't need tospend four years in college, I
just go straight through.
So I was very young but I wentto Northwestern.
But then after Northwestern mytraining took me all over.
(42:24):
So I went to New York to do aninternship.
I came back to Chicago to do aseven-year residency, I went
back to Maryland to do afellowship and then I went to
Texas where I was a traumasurgeon for several years.
Then I moved to Kansas City,which explains why I'm a huge
Chiefs fan.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I saw that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yes, I was in Kansas City during some very good times
.
And it's a good time for KansasCity now, but I was there for
quite a while and then for thelast 10 years of my career, I
commuted from Chicago to QuincyIllinois Blessing Hospital in
Quincy Illinois.
That's a long commute.
It is, but it's an Amtrak ride,so it's great.
But I would work there for aweek and then I'd be home for a
(43:08):
week.
Trauma surgery is verydemanding and that worked out
well for me that I could be very, very intense for a week, then
come home, recover and work foranother week.
That's where I met a lot of theGift of Hope staff, because
that's the southern border ofour service area.
So I actually knew much of ourdownstate staff much better than
(43:28):
I knew the organization, and soin 2019, when the current, the
then CEO was starting to talkabout retiring, I had really
developed an interest in organdonation.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Why.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Well, in 2005, you talk about ripple effects and
the importance of sharingsomeone's story.
I was invited to a nationalconference in 2005.
Organ donation was really notsomething on my radar, but at
this talk this brave woman toldthe story about her 14 year old
(44:02):
daughter who died waiting for alung transplant and she had been
on the waitlist for sevenmonths.
I was flabbergasted.
I did not know at that time.
I had been a surgeon for 15years.
At that time I didn't knowpeople died waiting for organs.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Really.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Did not know.
I knew that little about organdonation and I found it
absolutely unacceptable.
And so that story started me ona track to try and get rid of
the wait list by improving howorgans are managed during
donation and that sort of thing.
And so 20 years later I becamea CEO.
(44:42):
But the thing is as a traumasurgeon, if your patient dies,
you take that as a personalfailure.
I mean, it's horrible.
If my patient died, it didn'tmatter how tragic their issue
was.
If they died, I took that as apersonal failure and I mourned
it.
Organ donation if they died ina manner that they could then
(45:05):
provide organs, then it was likea silver lining.
At least it wasn't so senseless, right?
So that was my stance prior to2005.
After meeting her then I knewabout the people who were
waiting.
Then I knew about the need andthat's when I really sort of got
really into doing everything Icould to make sure we get rid of
(45:27):
the wait list.
And it was that woman's storyand, believe it or not, last
year is when I finally met herin person.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Did she know that she was your inspiration?
Speaker 2 (45:38):
She did not.
We met on a Zoom call that Ihad arranged because it had been
the 20-year anniversary of herdaughter's death.
I reached out to her becauseshe has done a lot to promote
organ donation.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
So you've been watching her from afar?
Yes, yes.
Wow Harry.
And so I thought how did shefeel when you contacted her?
Speaker 2 (46:00):
She was on with her husband and the three of us were
on the Zoom and, yeah, we wereall in tears at the end of it.
We were all in tears, very,very emotional.
But she did not know that herstory had had that effect and I
told her that there's manypeople in the organ donation
industry that remember that daywhen she told that story.
(46:21):
And, to your point, that's howimpactful stories can be.
That, literally, is howimpactful stories can be, and I
know this isn't video, but yousee the young woman's.
Her picture has been in myoffice and all the places we've
been for 20 years.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
What's her name?
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Her name is Alexa Kersting.
She was born January 19th of1990 and died July 15, 2004.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
And she's got a prominent space on your wall.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yes, she does.
She's a reminder.
She is literally the face ofthose waiting, and so my charge
as a CEO.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
She's cute too.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
She is, isn't she?
And the thing that'sinteresting about organ donation
is we don't get to meet thedonors.
And you know, the thing that'sinteresting about organ donation
is we don't get to meet thedonors.
We meet them through thestories that the families tell
and the pictures that they showus, and so I feel like I know
her, but I never met her.
But she literally is one of theinspirations for why I do this
work.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
She represents those people that die waiting on an
organ and they should not.
So I kind of sidetracked yourstory.
You were talking about how, in2019, you started looking.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yes, so you've got pandemic.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
I'm going to go into organ procurement.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I didn't think that.
But I did think that this was atime I had gotten very
comfortable being a traumasurgeon.
But I felt that this was a wayI could make an impact on the
wait list, and so the CEO wasretiring.
I had a conversation with him.
He was very gracious.
He picked up the phone while hewas on vacation Because that's
(48:03):
what everybody here does,apparently.
I said I heard you're thinkingabout retiring.
I'm thinking about you know,have you ever thought about
maybe a physician being in thatspot?
And I had known him throughoutthe course of me being involved
with donation and we had a longconversation.
He said why don't you go aheadand apply?
You know the board will decideand they chose me.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
And what do you feel your biggest accomplishment is
since you've been here?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
The organ donor care center at Rush and what that is
is typically what we do, laurie.
We work with 180 hospitals, 10transplant centers, and so if
someone dies at a hospital, wego to that hospital and every
time it's almost like recreatingthings.
You have to work into theirschedule and everything else at
(48:48):
the organ donor care center.
Now, if they died that hospital, we transport them and
everything is standardized andwhat that does it allows us to
coordinate things better, managethe donors better and we
actually get more organs perdonor and we've shown this and I
think, think that that has beenmy biggest accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Thank you why rush, so we put out the request for
proposal to all the transplantcenters.
The location was great it'sright in the medical district,
it's off the highway, it's easyaccess to both airports,
actually, and that they were theones that responded with the
best physical location andeverything else.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
So does that mean deceased donors go to Rush
before they go to?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
another transplant center in the Chicago area.
Deceased donors from hospitalsthat are not a transplant center
will go to Rush.
It's the Gift of Hope Centerthat's at Rush, and so we just
are able to standardize that.
Sometimes, lori, if we have adonor that may have five organs
being allocated you may have aheart going someplace, lungs
(50:00):
going someplace else, liver andintestine going someplace else.
You could have five separateteams in one area, and to try
and do that at a hospital wherethey're trying to schedule
gallbladders and cystoscopiesand everything else, as opposed
to an OR that's dedicated andsuper large just to accommodate
(50:21):
all those teams for that purpose, makes all the difference in
the world.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
And who are the surgeons there?
Who are they hired by or who dothey work for?
Speaker 2 (50:29):
It depends.
So we have surgeons that arehired by Gift of Hope that do
mostly abdominal recoverysurgeons, but oftentimes if
you're getting a heart or lungthey send their own teams, be it
from Texas or California orwherever they send their own
teams.
So it depends on which organsare being recovered.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Does it benefit Russia in any way to have that
center in their facility?
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Not really.
It sort of breaks even for themfor the amount of expense that
they put out to have thatfacility there.
That helps offset some of thatexpense, but other than that not
really.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
So they can't go grab an extra kidney.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Oh no, so we have to continue to allocate according
to the list that's given to us.
In fact, most of the organsthat are recovered from there
actually go to other transplantcenters, not Rush.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Based on wait list.
It's all based on the wait list.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
So no, they don't.
That's a common question thatwe get.
Just because the donor is thereat Rush doesn't mean those
organs, and most times theydon't go to Rush.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
That's because we've all watched way too much Grey's
Anatomy.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Way too much.
I can't even watch it.
I can't watch it.
It's like that's not how thathappens.
It's like that's not how thathappens.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
It's awareness, but maybe not the right kind of
awareness.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
And I've twice interrupted you so you didn't
get to finish talking about yourlab downstairs.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
That makes Get to Hope a little bit more unique.
It makes your face light up whenyou talk about it.
So of the 55 organ procurementorganizations, 12 of us have
laboratories there, but there'sdifferent types of things.
There's infectious diseasetesting.
There's what's called HLAtesting to make sure the organs
match.
There's biopsies that are done.
(52:14):
There's all different types oftesting.
In our organ procurement area.
We have 10 transplant centersAll of the people that are on
those transplant.
We have 10 transplant centersAll of the people that are on
those transplant wait lists.
At those centers.
They send blood to our center.
We hold that blood and everytime we get an organ that we
want to offer one of thosecenters, we do a cross match
(52:36):
with that blood.
We offer that service here andthat's very unique for other
OPOs.
There's only two other two OPOsthat have the full range of
services.
Our lab director is amazing.
He's his PhD and also you cangive him a shout out.
Sam Hull.
He is the amazing individual.
(52:57):
He's our lab director, is justa just an amazing guy.
But he also has expertise inwhat we call HLA as human
leukocyte antigen.
There's SLA testing, which isswine leukocyte antigen.
He's probably one of three inthe world who have that
expertise interesting yes, andthat's just been his PhD focus
(53:22):
and so he has that particularexpertise as well.
So he's actually helped peopleall over the world with how to
do typing specific to pigs outof your lab downstairs yes, as
part of a side project.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Okay, yeah, so you are cultivating things here, I
really, it is really, it isreally coming to fruition, it
really is.
I'm glad you're not staying inyour lane.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, sometimes you have to getout of your lane.
You know, if you think about it, the field of transplantation
was people getting out of theirlane, yeah, and so sometimes you
got to get out of your lane.
That's innovation.
That's innovation, we got to doit.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Well, Harry, this has been such a fun morning.
Thank you so much for the tourand for your time and for being
so free with your time.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
You're welcome and congratulations on your movie.
Can't wait for it to come out.
Thank you you guys.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Gift of Hope has been supporting the idea of the
movie for over five years now.
That's great so we appreciateyour support so much, so excited
that you're screening it onMarch 22nd and I hope to see you
there.
That's great.
So we appreciate your supportso much, so excited that you're
screening it on.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
March 22nd and I hope to see you there.
That's great.
Let me flip the script a littlebit on you.
So how do you feel after allthis time for it finally coming
to fruition?
What's that like for you?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
I mean, it's about to be out there, right, and I'm
mostly excited.
I'm extremely hopeful that ithas the impact.
Mostly excited, I'm extremelyhopeful that it has the impact.
The impact I'm hoping for isthat some people feel that
lightning strike and end updonating and, you know, I think
some of it will have an impact,you know, for people in the
future, not immediately.
(54:57):
So I'm hopeful, I'm excited andI hope it's well received.
Yeah Well, Lori, it's been saidthat sometimes you will plant a
tree that someone else will baskin the shade, so maybe that'll
be I like that.
Who said that?
Speaker 2 (55:12):
I don't know.
I wish I could tell who it was.
I've repeated it, but I don'tthink I'm the one that came up
with it but just the idea of yes, you know, this is, this is the
seed that you're going to plant, but you might not even bask in
that shade.
I think it was my mother thatsaid the best time to plant a
tree was 20 years ago.
The next best time is today.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Oh, that's a good one too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
So we will continue pushing on this.
I'm so glad you came by.
Speaker 1 (55:39):
Any final thoughts you have that you'd like to
share with our audience?
Speaker 2 (55:42):
I always leave audience with three things.
Number one educate yourselfabout organ donation.
It's absolutely fascinating.
Number two is if you're not aregistered donor, consider
becoming a registered donor.
And number three after youregister, tell your family about
your decision.
So those are the most threethings I think people need to
remember.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
And we will put links in our show notes so that
people can do that if they'renot already signed up, that's
right to giftofhopeorggiftofhopeorg.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
And then what if they're not in the way?
Speaker 2 (56:11):
You can do registermeorg.
Your local Department of MotorVehicles usually will be able to
register.
So there's lots of differentways.
Apple has a health app whereyou can donate right on the
health app.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
Huh, do you ever?
Is that a thing that comes upwhen you're talking to donor
families Sometimes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
So Steve Jobs famously received a liver that
extended his life and because ofthat, when they made the health
app, he wanted to have the appto be able to go directly to the
national registry so that youcould pull up your health app
and if you're not registered,you can register right on the
health app that was reallyingenious yeah, I know,
zuckerberg did something onfacebook too, where you could
(56:52):
market on facebook right, do youguys?
actually reference that like uhI don't know if we reference
that one.
I know we reference the healthapp.
Um, we have it on our websiteand I think what we want to do
is we want to make it as easyfor people to donate as possible
.
So we just normally tell peoplegiftofhopeorg and people can
also remember registermeorg.
(57:13):
There's the local registry andthen there's the national
registry.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
And you just need to be on one.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
You just need to be on one.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
All right.
Well, thank you for your time.
Thank you for all you're doingfor organ donation in our region
.
We're so lucky to have youleading this effort.
Well, I hope this interview hasdeepened your understanding of
the critical work being donebehind the scenes and inspired
you to consider the vital roleeach of us can play in
supporting organ and tissuedonation.
(57:39):
Please check out my show notesto get on the registry.
If you're not already on theregistry and would like to be,
you can be a tool in the toolboxthat helps end the waitlist for
those in need of a life-savingtransplant.
This season of Donor Diaries isproudly sponsored by GiftWorks,
an organization dedicated toempowering organ recipients and
(58:00):
living donors through education,advocacy and support.
In living donors, througheducation, advocacy and support.
By helping patients share theirjourney and connect with donors
, giftworks ensures everyonefeels supported throughout the
transplant process.
We're honored to partner with ateam that's transforming lives,
one transplant at a time.
To learn more, visityourgiftworkscom.
(58:22):
Every conversation can sparkchange and every choice makes a
difference.
Thanks for listening and keepinspiring those around you.
This is Lori Lee signing off.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
(58:49):
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you,thank you.
Welcome to Donor Diaries, a podcast that explores
how people are changing livesthrough the powerful act of
living donation.
Tune in to discover howkindness, love and simple acts
of giving are transforming livesevery day.
Welcome back Today.
(00:33):
We have a very special guest onDonor Diaries Dr Harry Wilkins,
the CEO of Gift of Hope, whichis the organ procurement
organization that serves theregion I live in.
Organ procurement organizationthat serves the region I live in
.
Not only is he a trauma surgeon, but Harry's also a leader in
the world of organ donation,working every day to save and
(00:53):
change lives.
He's letting us peek behind thecurtain of an organ procurement
organization to see what reallyhappens in the process of organ
donation.
Dr Wilkins is one of those rarepeople who brings both heart
and expertise to his work, and Ican't wait for you to hear his
insights.
Well, welcome to Donor Diaries,harry.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thank you, lauren, appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I think you're one of the most distinguished guests
I've ever had on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, that means you might have not had very many
distinguished people on yourpodcast, but I appreciate it,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
No, I mean in learning about you and your
career and your history and whatbrought you to Gift of Hope.
You just have an incrediblyimpressive career helping people
.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Oh well, thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
One of the things I read about you is that you like
system changes.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yes, yes, I can expand on that a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You came to Gift of Hope in 2020.
I think coming to an organprocurement organization in 2020
, probably with that comessystem change and you can only
imagine what you walked into.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, there were a lot of system changes in 2020
for everybody.
So I think I kind of drankwater from the fire hose a
little bit.
So I was a trauma surgeon for36 years, up until October 6,
2020.
And then, october 19, I becamea CEO.
So that was a big change atfirst.
But then in COVID and thosewere some very strange times we
(02:24):
went from this very one-on-one,in-person sort of thing to we
started doing a lot of things onthe phone and over the Teams
and Zoom and those sorts ofthings, and that was a huge
change, because I think this is,even though we talk a lot about
statistics and things like that, this is a very personal,
one-to-one sort of thing, andthat was very difficult to do
(02:47):
when you didn't have thatconnection.
So we had to change a lot ofprocesses.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
I bet I can only imagine.
And what our listeners don'tknow is that I just got a
90-minute tour of your facility.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Oh, yes, yes.
Well, that always injects metoo, because it's still a
fascinating, fascinating thing.
I worked with a transplantsurgeon a heart transplant
surgeon in Kansas City, and Iwas not a transplant surgeon
myself, but I would accompanyhim into the operating room
sometimes to watch it, and hewould put the heart in, and when
it started beating again, therewas a time when he would just
(03:20):
stop and say no matter how manytimes I do this, just stop and
say no matter how many times Ido this, it's just a miracle,
and that's the thing.
When I was showing you intouring, I think every employee
that you met talked aboutwhatever their role was.
We met a transportation guy, wemet a family services person,
we met a vice president, we meta lab director, and I think you
(03:42):
could see it too.
All of them just have thatwonder about what they do every
day.
People that have been here 12years, 21 years, 37 years and
they still have that wonder.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
One of the people we met that really made an
impression on me was thetransport person who said it was
his 637th.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Oregon transport today.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And you'd only been here seven years.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Right.
And not only that, but you lookat his face and there's that
pride of knowing that this iswhat he was doing.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
And I think that's what's so unique about this
business.
Every single person in thisorganization knows what their
job is in terms of making lifehappen, making transplant happen
, and I think that's really inmy position.
It's very fulfilling.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
I can only imagine, yeah, and can we back up a
little bit, harry, and can youjust explain to our listeners
what is an OPO?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yes, so OPOs are organ procurement organizations.
There's 55 of them throughoutthe country and every organ
procurement organization OPO 55of them throughout the country
and every organ procurementorganization OPL has a
designated service area called aDSA.
It's not always along statelines, but the entire country is
covered by an organ procurementorganization.
(04:59):
We are charged under federalcontract with overseeing the
entire donation process, fromthe time that an injury occurs
that causes death to a patientall the way to taking care of
the donor family after thetransplant happens.
So we receive the referral fromthe hospital.
(05:19):
We then evaluate the potentialdonor for their suitable medical
suitability of it.
After that, if they're medicallysuitable, then we check to see
if the person's a registereddonor.
Then we let the family knowwhat that means.
If they're not registered, wetalk with the family to gain
consent to get donation.
(05:39):
If we are successful, then wemanage the donors and so that
the organs are usable, Then weoversee allocating those organs
according to a very specificalgorithm that is set forth by
the United Network on OrganSharing, UNOS.
Once we've found a home for allthe organs, then we coordinate
(05:59):
all the teams that have tosurgically recover those organs
and then we oversee distributingthose to the respective
transplant centers.
After that happens, we're stilltaking care of the donor family
afterwards.
Donor families and donorrecipients want to know who they
are.
We coordinate that becausewe're trying to be respectful of
(06:19):
both.
There are some donors whoreally don't want to know
anything, or if they don't wantto know, they may not want to
know, right then.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
The donor families you mean.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
The donor families?
They may not.
You know, everybody grievesdifferently.
Some want to know right away,some don't want to know at all,
some may not want to know for 20years and everything in between
.
Some recipients actually havesurvival guilt.
They don't want to knowanything about the donor because
they know something bad hashappened and it's just very
(06:51):
individual.
So it's always best for us tosort of be the go-between
between the donor family and therecipients.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And you have a whole team of people.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
A whole team of people.
A whole team of people Not asmany as you would think that
would need to do that work, butthey're very, very special
people to do that work.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
How often do you have somebody who's in intensive
care and they're a registereddonor and their family, for
whatever reason, don't want todonate their loved one's organs?
Is that a common thing thathappens?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
It is common I don't have a specific number on it.
I would say most times it isnot an issue, and it's because
of how our staff approach thesefamilies, but there are times
when they are just adamant thatthey do not care what their
loved one said.
They're not going to have theirloved one donate.
Those become pretty difficultcases, and, again, it's not that
(07:49):
common.
When it does, though, we'refaced with a pretty difficult
choice, because the wholepurpose of the first person
registry is that you have theright of self-determination and,
obviously, if you're in aposition where you are a donor,
you're not in a position to saywhether or not you're going to
(08:10):
do it or not.
So what you do is you sign upto say, on the occasion of my
death, I want to be a donor.
That decision is a legallybinding decision.
So we always stress when youmake that decision, tell your
family members about it, becauseit's really what our job is to
honor the donor's wishes.
(08:31):
If those wishes are at odds withthe family's wishes, the
donor's wishes prevails.
It's governed by gift law, soby informed consent.
If I'm getting ready to do asurgical procedure on you, I
inform you about the risks andbenefits of the procedure and
then you make that decision.
With gift law it's like a will.
(08:51):
If you have a favorite car thatyou want to go to your cousin
and you put that in your will.
When you die, that willprevails.
It's your last will andtestament.
That's gift law and that's howit works with organs.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Wow.
Well, I kind of thought that Iwas a good myth buster.
But I understood that if I'm anorgan donor and my husband says
, no, I don't want to donate herorgans, that he got the final
say.
But that's not the case.
There's gift law.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
That is not the case.
So the first personauthorization if you are an
adult and you sign up to be aregistered donor, that is
legally binding and that takesprecedence over any other next
of kin, husband or anybody else.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, that's good to know.
So, really, what people need todo is tell their loved ones
that they absolutely want todonate their organs, so that we
don't have a situation wherewe're saying the donor wants
this, but the family wantssomething else.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Right and I will expound on that a little bit.
It's not just telling yourfamily, it's number one
educating yourself about whatthat means, because a lot of
people don't know what being anorgan donor is.
I was at a registration eventlast year and we were at a table
answering questions and therewas a CNA, a certified nurse
(10:10):
assistant, and she said you know, I've always wanted to be a
donor, but I don't want peoplecalling me, asking me for my
organs all the time.
And I said that's not whathappens.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
That's just my talent .
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Right.
And then I explained to her theprocess and she's like oh, of
course, when you're gone, you'regone, right, there's nothing
(10:48):
left after that, but your lovedones.
What is your legacy going to be?
So, if you're not an organdonor, the end of your life is
the end of your story.
If you're an organ donor, theend of your life is the
beginning of another one someoneelse's story, and that becomes
part of your loved one's story,and so there's actually benefits
to your surviving loved ones aswell.
(11:10):
And then so that's why youreally want to make sure you've
registered that decision.
And then the third part is makesure your family knows that
this is what you want, and thatgives the family comfort.
One of the hard things, lori,is that when we talk to a family
of a patient who's notregistered and the family says I
just don't know what he wouldhave wanted to do now that
(11:34):
burden is on them.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
If they're registered and they've told them, the
burden is off.
This is what they wanted.
We're just going to proceed, sothat's why that's so important.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Can you tell me a story about a family who didn't
know what their loved one wantedand what happened?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
This was years ago.
I was in Texas and there was a19-year-old and the mother was
very young, the mother wasprobably 35, and single mother,
only child.
And this 19-year-old was in awreck, hit his head and became
brain dead and he wasn'tregistered, just didn't know if
he wanted to donate or not.
(12:13):
And so many of the friends ofthe kid were there and the
mother was trying to make thisdecision to do I donate his
organs or not.
And one of the friends said tohis mother you know, I've known
this guy all my life, we grew uptogether.
He goes, he would give theshirt off his back to any one of
(12:35):
us.
He goes.
I have no idea why.
He wouldn't want to dosomething good for somebody else
.
She started crying, she thankedhim, hugged him so much she
goes, you're absolutely rightand decided to donate.
But she agonized over thatdecision.
If he had signed up to be adonor, that would have just
taken that away from her.
And so it was a positiveoutcome.
(12:58):
But I always remember thatbecause you could see this
mother was just in such agonyand I happened to be sitting
there when the friend came and Ijust thought how much relief
you could just see the relief inher eyes and her whole
countenance when she knew thatthat's what his personality was.
But again, I think that waspretty much by luck that that
(13:22):
happened.
Registering to be a donor justtakes that away.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Wow, have you always been a registered donor yourself
?
I always have.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
But I was raised, I think I was raised in a
household where you just dowhatever you can to help people.
It's just that's the nature,and so my mother was very much
that way, all my brothers arevery much that way, and I've
always you know, always beenraised in faith that you know we
live life for the ever after.
(13:50):
I've always been of the opinionthat we are spiritual beings
enjoying a temporary humanexistence Once the body is gone.
This is not me, this is just myearthly vessel, so to speak.
Your meat bag.
It's just meat bag.
I don't know if I'd call itmeat bag but that's essentially
what it is, but it's just stuff.
(14:12):
Remember, man, that you aredust, and unto dust you shall
return.
Don't take your organs toheaven.
Heaven knows we need them hereand I've always, even as a kid,
even before I knew much aboutorgan donation.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I've always thought that Wow, Harry, can we talk a
little bit about your personallife and what?
Brought you to Gift of Hope.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Are you a Chicago guy ?
Speaker 2 (14:35):
I am.
I'm a native Chicagoan andpeople always wonder why I'm not
used to these winters.
I will never get used to thesewinters.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
I will never get used to these winters either, Harry.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I'm here my whole life, but I will never get used
to them.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
What part of Chicago are you from?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
South side of Chicago , so White Sox fan, not Cubs,
okay and I had five brothers.
We all grew up on the southside of Chicago and,
interestingly enough, my dreamas a child was to own a string
of service stations.
I loved working on cars, so Igrew up in the 70s, during the
muscle car era, and so, me andmy brothers, we used to.
(15:14):
One of the bonding things wecould do with my dad is we could
work on cars together, and so Ithought this is great.
You know, people come in in.
They've got this, something'swrong with their car.
We can fix it for them.
You know, you've helped them.
They feel good, I've had a goodtime working on the car and I
thought that's what I'm going todo.
And so in the late 70s, early80s, as they started getting
(15:38):
electronic transmissions and allall the, my mother, who was
very wise she died in 2011 andshe was a school teacher she got
me to see that the industry wasgoing to change quite a bit.
So shouldn't I just go and dosomething else?
I didn't know what else to do,and so surgery appealed to me,
(16:00):
because it's kind of likeworking on a car.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Is it though, harry, it kind of is Is tinkering in
your garage, kind of like doinga surgery.
It kind of is.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
It really kind of is.
So think about it A car is acollection of systems.
You know, we talked earlierabout how I like systems In a
car.
You've got the drivetrain,You've got the fuel and fuel
system, You've got the exhaust,the chassis that.
We've got the exhaust, thechassis, that's like.
The chassis is like orthopedics.
The fuel system is like the GIsystem.
The electrical system is likethe nervous system.
(16:29):
So it's basically just taking aset of systems that makes the
car work and then you can workon it.
And so that's what appealed tome about surgery.
I love that about surgery.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Somebody comes in, they've got appendicitis you
operate on them, take it out andthey're on their way.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Okay, so this started out as a dream to have a chain
of mechanic shops.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yes, okay, so that was the original dream.
That's amazing that your momkind of had the foresight of
what might happen with cars andthat a mechanic might be
different now than it was in the70s or 80s.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Well, it's really interesting.
And again, I think my mom had alot of foresight about a lot of
different things.
One of her special knacks wasshe could read trends and just
sort of foresee what's coming.
In the early 60s, when we werevery, very little and she saw
the turbulent times of the 1960s, she knew that with six little
(17:28):
black boys on the south side ofChicago, in the summertime this
was not good.
So in 1965, she bought a pieceof land in southwest Michigan 15
acres of land and said when weget out of school, I'm taking my
boys up to Michigan.
So we spent summers in Michigan.
Get out of school, I'm takingmy boys up to Michigan.
So we spent summers in Michigan.
And the 60s and 70s was not agood time to be on the south
(17:49):
side of Chicago getting intotrouble, but that was again part
of her foresight.
I feel the same way about thecoming changes in the organ
donation industry.
I feel like I have that sort offoresight that my mom had.
It feels the same.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Let's talk about that a little bit.
So the first thing I learnedabout you is that you actually
have a major interest inxenotransplant.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I do.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
So tell us a little bit about your 2030 vision for
organ transplant.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
The 2030 vision.
So it's kind of a catchy titleand it's very ambitious.
I want to harken back to the60s again, because I'm a child
of the 60s and in 1960, whenPresident Kenney, he said that
we will put a man on the moon bythe end of the decade.
With technology that does notexist, we don't know how it's
(18:37):
going to happen, but we know wewill do it by the end of the
decade, and we landed a man onthe moon in 1969.
In 2014, I was at a conferenceand all the different
alternatives to human deceasedorgans were coming up.
We have 3D printed organs.
We have have you ever heard ofde-cell re-cell?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
I haven't.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So when you have an organ, you have the cellular
components and then you have thenon-cellular components.
So if you put a detergent onthat organ, you will basically
be left with this lattice workthat is, non-cells.
You can then take cells andgrow them on that lattice and
have a functioning organ.
That's called decellularization, resellularization.
(19:24):
You then have bioartificialimplanted organs and then you
have xenotransplants.
Xenotransplants means from onespecies to another.
Recently, you may have heard inthe news that there's been two
pig hearts that have beentransplanted into people and now
the latest kidney that has beenplanted into a human.
(19:45):
The kidney was modifiedgenetically, put into the human
and she is doing well two and ahalf months later off dialysis.
Two days ago, the FDA clearedthe way for the first trials
human trials inxenotransplantation In 2014,.
I said that we will get to zerowait list by 2030.
(20:08):
And here we are, at 2025.
I'm still holding out hope thatwe're going to get there, but
it'll be from the application ofall of these different things.
So xenotransplantation,bioartificial organs, which
basically means if you canimplant an artificial kidney
inside someone, the 3d printedorgans, that could become a
(20:30):
reality as well, and then thesegrown organs, these
decellularized organs that arenow repopulated with cells.
So I think about it.
Laurie is expanding the toolboxof available organs.
There's over 100,000 peoplewaiting for a transplant.
80% of them are kidneys.
Last year there were only28,000 transplants, and there's
(20:52):
more people at it.
So we have to expand how manyorgans are available, and let's
not even talk about livingdonation.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I was hoping you were going to bring that up for part
of the toolbox.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
So, as you know, living donation has been fairly
flat, but we know the potentialis out there.
So I think that's one of theother ways to expand the toolbox
Order procurement organizations.
Unfortunately and I'm hoping tochange that we don't really
harp on that era of donation,that way of donation before.
I think that's just another waythat we can expand that.
(21:26):
So when you start adding all ofthese things together, I think
we can literally wipe out thewait list by 2030.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
You really think we can do it by 2030?
Yes, I can't wait to play thisback in 2030, when living in a
nation is a thing of the past.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's right.
Let's put it in a time capsule.
And my vision is and I don'thave all the words, I won't get
the words right but basically Ienvision a day when nobody who
needs an organ will have to waitfor an organ and nobody will
die waiting for an organ.
Right now, about 17 people aday die waiting for an organ.
That's just unacceptable.
It's just unacceptable.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
It's a lot of needless suffering.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
It's a lot of needless suffering and, like I
always ask people, if you weretold today that you need an
organ, how long would you wantto wait?
No one would say three years orfive years or six years, but
that's what happens routinelynow.
So, without a wait list, Ithink that is a very admirable
goal and I think it's anachievable goal.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Harry, do people ever tell you to stay in your lane?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
So when I think of an OPO, when I think of Gift of
Hope, one of the things I thinkabout and being on a tour with
you this morning, I actually gotto see people's remains coming
in so that their tissue could berecovered, and I know
statistically that one in athousand people die in a way
where they can get their organsrecovered.
(22:52):
And so when I see an actualbody of a donor coming into your
facility 999 people wanted todo that and couldn't so that is
like a lottery winner in termsof somebody who wants to donate
their organs and their tissueswhen they die, but most people
(23:13):
don't actually get to do thatright.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
It's a huge privilege and it's one of the reasons why
it's a privilege, it's aprivilege.
So last year we had a record.
We had 527 organ donors, whichis a record in the 40-year
history.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Thank you, but that represents 1,495 lives saved
because of those 526 organdonors.
We got 1,495 organs.
So for us, every opportunityhas to be maximized.
And of those 526, we actuallyapproached 802 families that
(23:48):
gave consent and then, for onereason or another, sometimes we
get what's called authorized butnot recovered.
So you get to the operatingroom and none of the organs are
usable, for whatever reason.
So we still have to maximizeevery opportunity that we have.
The ones that you saw today,those are tissue donors.
So, tissue donors, we have awhole lot more time and many
(24:10):
more people can be tissue donorsthan organ donors, but it's
still quite rare.
It's still quite rare.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
So the opportunity to actually become a donor upon
death is very, very small.
I often look at it as you know.
You and I are kind ofapproaching the problem two
different ways.
Right, like you need to sign upa thousand people to get two
kidneys donated right and itmight be easier for me to go out
there and inspire somebody tobe a living kidney donor, right
(24:40):
so?
the numbers are very differentfor what you're doing and what
I'm doing.
Do you see it as an organprocurement organization's
responsibility to be lookingoutside of deceased donation to
solve the organ shortage?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
It's more than that.
It's more than that.
And when you say, stay in yourlane, I come at this from a
surgeon's mentality.
And of all the organprocurement organizations,
there's two others that havephysician CEOs.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So you're a very uncommon breed to be a surgeon
in an OPO and you can probablytalk shop with transplant
centers in a different way.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Do you ever stand in, too, to oversee what's going on
?
I?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
have.
It's very exciting.
It's very exciting, it's veryexciting.
But what I mean by coming at itfrom the surgeon's mentality is
I'm a trauma surgeon and so for36 years I've treated people
who have had traumatic injuries.
Most of those injuries arepreventable Gunshot wounds,
traffic crashes I refuse to callthem accidents.
(25:43):
They're all crashes, becauseusually if someone's in a crash,
there's an identifiable causewhich is preventable Speeding.
I never considered that Drivingon there's an identifiable
cause which is preventableSpeeding.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I never considered that.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Driving on, you know driving too close.
Whatever the case, yes, thereare some accidents, but most,
when you do a root causeanalysis, are preventable.
So, as a trauma surgeon, in mymind I call them crashes because
they are preventable.
As a trauma surgeon, the bestoutcome I can have for you is to
not have the incident in thefirst place.
(26:14):
So as a trauma surgeon, I'veworked in prevention of gunshot
wounds, violent crimes,improving cars, improving
streets All of those things havereduced the prevalence of
trauma.
Now Now change this over tokidney failure.
A lot of kidney failure isuntreated diabetes, untreated
(26:35):
hypertension.
So in my mind I have said thatour responsibility, if we really
want to get rid of the waitlist, you've got to work on
preventing it in the first place.
That's one way In my mind.
There's three ways to decreasethe wait list.
Number one is don't let themget sick in the first place.
Number three is to have themdie, which is unacceptable.
(26:57):
And the second is to get themall transplanted.
The classic organ procurementorganization's lane is to get
more organs for transplant.
I do believe we need to stepout of our lane to encourage
living donation, to encourageand support research that will
get xenotransplantation andbioartificial and all these
(27:17):
other alternative organ sources,and I also believe we have a
responsibility to promote goodkidney health.
So we do work with the NationalKidney Foundation, the American
Kidney Foundation, to try andpromote good kidney health, to
not have the wait list be solong.
So I think you use all yourtools at your disposal to get
(27:39):
rid of the wait list.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
That's a good way to look at it.
Can you tell me something thatGift of Hope is doing that other
OPOs might not be doing toincrease the number of tools in
the toolbox?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think that there's a lot of things, but, not having
a full understanding of whatall other OPOs are doing, I can
tell you what we're doing.
So one of the things that'sinteresting is by federal
contract.
There's certain things that wedo that aren't covered by
federal contract.
For example, there's some donorfamily support activities that
I think I told you on the tourtoday.
(28:14):
Our donor families need a lotof support and we feel that
that's one of our bigobligations.
It's not something that we'reunder federal contract to do,
but it's something we feel isvery important to do.
I think every OPO does thingsfor donor families.
April is Donate Life Month.
You'll see us have flagraisings at hospitals in honor
(28:35):
of our donor families all overthe city and in our service area
.
A lot of OPOs do that as well.
Research efforts so a lot ofthe research that I like to be
involved in are things likeperfusion.
I think I showed you earliertoday where kidneys were on
these little pumps and they wereputting the kidneys on the pump
(28:55):
.
That extends the usable life ofthose kidneys and lets us
transplant more kidneys.
We're constantly researchingperfusion technologies that will
extend organ capability.
Cryopreservation just coldstorage of organs we're starting
to investigate that as apossibility of getting organs to
(29:18):
be procured.
So different OPOs expenddifferent resources to have
research to try and make moreorgans available.
I don't know how many OPOs aredoing what type of research, but
that's an example of somethingthat Gift of Hope is doing to
support research and those sortsof things.
Community education gettinginto the community to try and
(29:40):
dispel myths about organdonation just to increase the
number of people who areregistered.
I know we do a lot of thateducation.
A lot of other OPOs do that aswell, but those are just a
couple of examples of thingswe're doing.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
And do you do anything to promote living
donation?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Not as much as we should.
One of the things is and I wastalking with our vice president
of outreach about that, who'sworked with you before in the
past but I think that that'ssomething that we can do.
Typically, we've left that upto the transplant centers.
One thing that happened, Lori,is that COVID put a kibosh on a
(30:16):
lot of things that we were doing, and I think we're just now
starting to re-ramp up some ofthat.
You have a movie coming outthat's got to be very helpful,
and I think a lot of OPOs willbe able to use that movie to
help inspire living donation.
So I think, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And I'd be willing to bet that the people who are
signing the back of theirdriver's license and want to
donate upon death are probablymore likely to donate when
they're alive versus people whodon't right.
So if they're, willing to doone, they might be more likely
to be a living donor.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I think so, and I think the other thing is just
people haven't thought about itand having thought about it,
they may think why not?
This is a really really coolthing to do.
So again, that education partis really important to, not just
for living donation, but alsofor deceased donation as well.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
What resources would you like that you might not have
right now?
That would help Gift of Hope beable to get more people
transplanted.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Money.
I think some of these unfunded,like for instance,
xenotransplantation when thatstarts, insurance companies
aren't going to cover that rightaway.
And because I've actuallyvisited some of these facilities
where they do the geneticallymodified pigs, there is a lot of
private equity that is going into develop that and these are
(31:37):
for-profit companies.
They have to get therecuperation on their investment
, just like pharmaceuticalcompanies.
They spend a lot of money to dothe R&D to develop it and they
have to recoup that.
So when a new drug comes outit's very expensive.
I think the same thing willhappen with these other sources
of kidneys and and other organs.
(31:57):
I would love it if I had anunlimited amount of money where
I could pay for those untilinsurers picked it up.
We just don't have that.
I think it's going to take alot of outside funding,
philanthropic funding, to get itup and running to the point
where it's covered bygovernmental third-party payers
(32:17):
and insurers.
But as that scales I thinkthose costs will come down, just
like everything TVs have donethat.
If you think about the firstflat-screen TV you ever had, it
was like thousands of dollars.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yep, and now they're like $500.
$200 on sale at.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Walmart or something.
So I think as it scales it willcome down.
But I would like, as an organprocurement organization, to be
able to help offset those costsfrom the transplant centers,
because it's a very expensiveproposition.
Because it's a very expensiveproposition, I personally
(32:56):
believe that no one should benot afforded the care for health
care for not being able to pay.
So I would like that's oneresource I would like to have
available to help get that overthe hump you said it very well
is that you have to register1,000 people to get one donor.
That's a lot of work andunfortunately and you probably
heard it too we get thesenegative things about donation
(33:18):
in the press, which kind of setsus back, and we're constantly
fighting against that.
So I think that's a hardquestion to answer in terms of
what resources we have.
I would just want to get theword out better, by hook or by
crook.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
If everybody could have the tour I just had, I
don't feel like they'd be soinflammatory.
I mean this is the mostinspired group of people I've
ever met in a singleorganization.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
And I think if you go to any organ procurement
organization, you would seesimilar sort of enthusiasm about
the process.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
I mean, one of your employees told me that he's been
here for over 20 years and thathe's never had a vacation that
wasn't interrupted by having toassist in moving in Oregon
somewhere.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Yeah, yeah, and probably was happy to do it.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
And he was he did say that Probably happy to do it.
He wasn't complaining when hesaid it.
Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, so it's just.
It's just that type of work andwhen you meet these families,
if you've ever been presentwhere a donor family meets their
recipient, you'll never forgetthat in your life.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Can you tell me a story about that?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And I just heard this story yesterday.
I was almost crying reading theemail.
But five years ago there was ayoung woman in the southern part
of our state that was one monthpostpartum, had postpartum
depression, was staying with herparents and she took the child
in with her into the bedroom andshe overdosed.
(34:41):
She sent her parents a text atone o'clock in the morning.
The parents saw it, walked inon her.
The child was on her chestcrying.
The father was starting.
Cpr by the paramedics came.
She ultimately died.
The daughter, the woman, who was21 years old at the time,
donated her heart to a woman whogot transplanted here five
(35:04):
years ago.
So the woman who gottransplanted.
This is the month before COVIDhits February of 2020.
She was on the list for a long,long time.
This woman happened to be a 98%match for an organ which the
surgeon who transplanted saidshe's never seen that before.
So it was a perfect match.
(35:25):
The woman wanted to make surethat it was going to be
successful before she contactedthe donor family.
So, as the five-yearanniversary is approaching, the
woman finally decided I'm goingto go ahead and reach out to
Gift of Hope to connect with thedonor family.
She sends the letter.
Renata, who you met, gets theletter and she calls the donor
(35:49):
family saying we have the letter.
Do you want this?
Most times when our folks havecalled, the father has picked up
the phone, and this particulartime the mother picked up the
phone.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
So they'd called that family.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
before we always do we always check in with the
families.
You know how are you doing andeverything else, and most every
time they've called, thefather's picked up.
On this particular time, it wasthe middle of the day the
mother picked up the phone Firsttime ever.
She said that she saw a gift ofhope and just decided to pick
up the phone.
The reason she was home is thatit was the five-year
(36:24):
anniversary of her daughter'sdeath.
She was having a hard time atwork crying and they just sent
her home because she was justhaving a hard day.
That's when she got the phonecall.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
They read the letter and in the letter it said I
wanted to make sure I was okay,but I would really like the
opportunity to meet you.
We're having our five-yearanniversary this weekend.
They really quickly turned itaround and they met saturday.
Wow, the coordinator thathosted it took a picture of them
(36:57):
meeting and there's a minutelong clip where they're just
embracing and crying and it isso hard to watch because you can
just see both of them.
They both needed that and Iwasn't even present for that,
but it's so moving.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Did she get to listen to her daughter's heart?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yes, so she gets a stethoscope and she listens.
And then she pulls her sleeveup and on the inside of her
wrist she had tattooed the lastEKG strip of her daughter.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Wow, on her wrist, and it's just, I get goosebumps
even just relaying that andwhenever I see one of those
Facebook videos, like on thetrain or something, I just start
crying on the train listeningto somebody's heart or the
recipient walking the person'sdaughter down the aisle.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yes, and so when you have those types of connections,
it's such a personal thing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
It's so personal, it's so moving that you think.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Why can't everybody see this?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Nobody would be against donation if they could
just experience this.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
We need more stories out there like this, so people
can see this.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
You do.
You do Just understanding thateverybody thinks about donation
as benefiting the recipient.
It benefits so many more thanjust the recipient, because
everybody who witnessed that istouched by that.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
It's a silver lining.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
It's a silver lining, it's the ripple in the pond.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, ripple in the pond, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
It's like my daughter would say it's not the icing on
the cake, it's the whole cake.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
It's just fascinating .
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah, so we met Renata and she works with
families who are having to makea decision about their loved
ones, and I gave her a letterfor my dad's donor family.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yes, I was very surprised by that.
That was very timely.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
That wasn't a coincidence.
I think that that was.
Oh, you knew, that was coming Idon't know, I just no, I didn't
know that that's who she was.
But I think it's pretty coolthat I had the letter and that I
got to give it to her.
So now she's going to call thefamily and say would you like
this letter?
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Yes, we have a letter .
We received a letter from therecipient family.
Would you like us to like this,pass that on.
Like, is she gonna do thattoday?
Probably, really, yes, wow,probably.
So let me flip the script hereand ask you so how did that feel
giving that letter?
You know?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
to renata.
That's a good question.
I have never written a letterand writing it was extremely
emotional and I didn't expectthat it was 2011.
I think about the family everyweek.
There's not a week that goes bywhere I don't think of them.
I know my dad's written letters, but I always kind of thought
(39:39):
that his letter trumped myletter.
And then I thought well, Icould write a letter.
Why can't I write a letter?
And what I was thinking is ishow I would feel if I was them
to receive a letter, and itwould make me very happy.
But I know not everybody can gothere right, emotionally they
can't go there.
But I'd like them to know thatall these years later we're
(40:00):
still very grateful and I thinkit could be a powerful
experience for them to see whatmy family has made of this
donation from them.
Because I look at, my dad'sdonor is the person who
initiated my kidney chain.
I didn't initiate it.
He did Because I wouldn't havedone it unless.
I was touched by transplant andit would make me feel better to
(40:23):
know that my loved one's deathhad this crazy ripple effect and
it has, I mean this has becomewhat my life is about.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Well, it will be interesting to hear the response
that you get from your letter.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
I hope you do get a response.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
But it'll be interesting.
But just the possibility ofthat and I think for that
department in our organization Ithink that's what drives them
is they get to experience thisall the time?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
That's a happy call time.
That's a happy call?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
probably it's a happy call.
It's tough work, it's veryemotionally draining work and I
think it draws that type ofperson there.
They're just amazing people.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Do they have a chaplainbackground or psychology?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
A lot of them have social worker background child
life psychology.
We have a lot of them, somehave chaplain backgrounds as
well.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Wow, During our tour, you took me to a lab which is
unique to Gift of Hope that mostOPOs don't have.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the lab you have that?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
makes you unique.
I love talking about our lab.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
I could tell you like touring the lab as well.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
I love the lab.
Well, first of all, I was not abasic scientist, but we did
have to have science.
We go through medical schooland you know we.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
And where were you, a surgeon, by the way?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
So I was.
I went to Northwestern OK, Iwas a six year med student,
which Northwestern has thisprogram where if you go to
medical school right after highschool, the first two years of
medical school will counttowards the completion of your
undergrad degree.
So, fun fact, I actually gotaccepted to medical school at
age 17.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Oh my God, that's because you didn't take recess
as a kid.
That's right.
You told me that you skippedrecess so you could start med
school at 17.
Lori is so amazing.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
I did not want to go to school.
I didn't like school.
I think that's a common myththat I must love school.
Because I've spent so much timein school, I wanted to be a
surgeon.
School was something I had todo to become a surgeon.
So I'm like I don't need tospend four years in college, I
just go straight through.
So I was very young but I wentto Northwestern.
But then after Northwestern mytraining took me all over.
(42:24):
So I went to New York to do aninternship.
I came back to Chicago to do aseven-year residency, I went
back to Maryland to do afellowship and then I went to
Texas where I was a traumasurgeon for several years.
Then I moved to Kansas City,which explains why I'm a huge
Chiefs fan.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I saw that.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yes, I was in Kansas City during some very good times
.
And it's a good time for KansasCity now, but I was there for
quite a while and then for thelast 10 years of my career, I
commuted from Chicago to QuincyIllinois Blessing Hospital in
Quincy Illinois.
That's a long commute.
It is, but it's an Amtrak ride,so it's great.
But I would work there for aweek and then I'd be home for a
(43:08):
week.
Trauma surgery is verydemanding and that worked out
well for me that I could be very, very intense for a week, then
come home, recover and work foranother week.
That's where I met a lot of theGift of Hope staff, because
that's the southern border ofour service area.
So I actually knew much of ourdownstate staff much better than
(43:28):
I knew the organization, and soin 2019, when the current, the
then CEO was starting to talkabout retiring, I had really
developed an interest in organdonation.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Why.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Well, in 2005, you talk about ripple effects and
the importance of sharingsomeone's story.
I was invited to a nationalconference in 2005.
Organ donation was really notsomething on my radar, but at
this talk this brave woman toldthe story about her 14 year old
(44:02):
daughter who died waiting for alung transplant and she had been
on the waitlist for sevenmonths.
I was flabbergasted.
I did not know at that time.
I had been a surgeon for 15years.
At that time I didn't knowpeople died waiting for organs.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Really.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Did not know.
I knew that little about organdonation and I found it
absolutely unacceptable.
And so that story started me ona track to try and get rid of
the wait list by improving howorgans are managed during
donation and that sort of thing.
And so 20 years later I becamea CEO.
(44:42):
But the thing is as a traumasurgeon, if your patient dies,
you take that as a personalfailure.
I mean, it's horrible.
If my patient died, it didn'tmatter how tragic their issue
was.
If they died, I took that as apersonal failure and I mourned
it.
Organ donation if they died ina manner that they could then
(45:05):
provide organs, then it was likea silver lining.
At least it wasn't so senseless, right?
So that was my stance prior to2005.
After meeting her then I knewabout the people who were
waiting.
Then I knew about the need andthat's when I really sort of got
really into doing everything Icould to make sure we get rid of
(45:27):
the wait list.
And it was that woman's storyand, believe it or not, last
year is when I finally met herin person.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Did she know that she was your inspiration?
Speaker 2 (45:38):
She did not.
We met on a Zoom call that Ihad arranged because it had been
the 20-year anniversary of herdaughter's death.
I reached out to her becauseshe has done a lot to promote
organ donation.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
So you've been watching her from afar?
Yes, yes.
Wow Harry.
And so I thought how did shefeel when you contacted her?
Speaker 2 (46:00):
She was on with her husband and the three of us were
on the Zoom and, yeah, we wereall in tears at the end of it.
We were all in tears, very,very emotional.
But she did not know that herstory had had that effect and I
told her that there's manypeople in the organ donation
industry that remember that daywhen she told that story.
(46:21):
And, to your point, that's howimpactful stories can be.
That, literally, is howimpactful stories can be, and I
know this isn't video, but yousee the young woman's.
Her picture has been in myoffice and all the places we've
been for 20 years.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
What's her name?
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Her name is Alexa Kersting.
She was born January 19th of1990 and died July 15, 2004.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
And she's got a prominent space on your wall.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yes, she does.
She's a reminder.
She is literally the face ofthose waiting, and so my charge
as a CEO.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
She's cute too.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
She is, isn't she?
And the thing that'sinteresting about organ donation
is we don't get to meet thedonors.
And you know, the thing that'sinteresting about organ donation
is we don't get to meet thedonors.
We meet them through thestories that the families tell
and the pictures that they showus, and so I feel like I know
her, but I never met her.
But she literally is one of theinspirations for why I do this
work.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
She represents those people that die waiting on an
organ and they should not.
So I kind of sidetracked yourstory.
You were talking about how, in2019, you started looking.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yes, so you've got pandemic.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
I'm going to go into organ procurement.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
I didn't think that.
But I did think that this was atime I had gotten very
comfortable being a traumasurgeon.
But I felt that this was a wayI could make an impact on the
wait list, and so the CEO wasretiring.
I had a conversation with him.
He was very gracious.
He picked up the phone while hewas on vacation Because that's
(48:03):
what everybody here does,apparently.
I said I heard you're thinkingabout retiring.
I'm thinking about you know,have you ever thought about
maybe a physician being in thatspot?
And I had known him throughoutthe course of me being involved
with donation and we had a longconversation.
He said why don't you go aheadand apply?
You know the board will decideand they chose me.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
And what do you feel your biggest accomplishment is
since you've been here?
Speaker 2 (48:28):
The organ donor care center at Rush and what that is
is typically what we do, laurie.
We work with 180 hospitals, 10transplant centers, and so if
someone dies at a hospital, wego to that hospital and every
time it's almost like recreatingthings.
You have to work into theirschedule and everything else at
(48:48):
the organ donor care center.
Now, if they died that hospital, we transport them and
everything is standardized andwhat that does it allows us to
coordinate things better, managethe donors better and we
actually get more organs perdonor and we've shown this and I
think, think that that has beenmy biggest accomplishment.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Thank you why rush, so we put out the request for
proposal to all the transplantcenters.
The location was great it'sright in the medical district,
it's off the highway, it's easyaccess to both airports,
actually, and that they were theones that responded with the
best physical location andeverything else.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
So does that mean deceased donors go to Rush
before they go to?
Speaker 2 (49:39):
another transplant center in the Chicago area.
Deceased donors from hospitalsthat are not a transplant center
will go to Rush.
It's the Gift of Hope Centerthat's at Rush, and so we just
are able to standardize that.
Sometimes, lori, if we have adonor that may have five organs
being allocated you may have aheart going someplace, lungs
(50:00):
going someplace else, liver andintestine going someplace else.
You could have five separateteams in one area, and to try
and do that at a hospital wherethey're trying to schedule
gallbladders and cystoscopiesand everything else, as opposed
to an OR that's dedicated andsuper large just to accommodate
(50:21):
all those teams for that purpose, makes all the difference in
the world.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
And who are the surgeons there?
Who are they hired by or who dothey work for?
Speaker 2 (50:29):
It depends.
So we have surgeons that arehired by Gift of Hope that do
mostly abdominal recoverysurgeons, but oftentimes if
you're getting a heart or lungthey send their own teams, be it
from Texas or California orwherever they send their own
teams.
So it depends on which organsare being recovered.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Does it benefit Russia in any way to have that
center in their facility?
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Not really.
It sort of breaks even for themfor the amount of expense that
they put out to have thatfacility there.
That helps offset some of thatexpense, but other than that not
really.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
So they can't go grab an extra kidney.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Oh no, so we have to continue to allocate according
to the list that's given to us.
In fact, most of the organsthat are recovered from there
actually go to other transplantcenters, not Rush.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Based on wait list.
It's all based on the wait list.
Speaker 2 (51:26):
So no, they don't.
That's a common question thatwe get.
Just because the donor is thereat Rush doesn't mean those
organs, and most times theydon't go to Rush.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
That's because we've all watched way too much Grey's
Anatomy.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Way too much.
I can't even watch it.
I can't watch it.
It's like that's not how thathappens.
It's like that's not how thathappens.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
It's awareness, but maybe not the right kind of
awareness.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
And I've twice interrupted you so you didn't
get to finish talking about yourlab downstairs.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
That makes Get to Hope a little bit more unique.
It makes your face light up whenyou talk about it.
So of the 55 organ procurementorganizations, 12 of us have
laboratories there, but there'sdifferent types of things.
There's infectious diseasetesting.
There's what's called HLAtesting to make sure the organs
match.
There's biopsies that are done.
(52:14):
There's all different types oftesting.
In our organ procurement area.
We have 10 transplant centersAll of the people that are on
those transplant.
We have 10 transplant centersAll of the people that are on
those transplant wait lists.
At those centers.
They send blood to our center.
We hold that blood and everytime we get an organ that we
want to offer one of thosecenters, we do a cross match
(52:36):
with that blood.
We offer that service here andthat's very unique for other
OPOs.
There's only two other two OPOsthat have the full range of
services.
Our lab director is amazing.
He's his PhD and also you cangive him a shout out.
Sam Hull.
He is the amazing individual.
(52:57):
He's our lab director, is justa just an amazing guy.
But he also has expertise inwhat we call HLA as human
leukocyte antigen.
There's SLA testing, which isswine leukocyte antigen.
He's probably one of three inthe world who have that
expertise interesting yes, andthat's just been his PhD focus
(53:22):
and so he has that particularexpertise as well.
So he's actually helped peopleall over the world with how to
do typing specific to pigs outof your lab downstairs yes, as
part of a side project.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Okay, yeah, so you are cultivating things here, I
really, it is really, it isreally coming to fruition, it
really is.
I'm glad you're not staying inyour lane.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, sometimes you have to getout of your lane.
You know, if you think about it, the field of transplantation
was people getting out of theirlane, yeah, and so sometimes you
got to get out of your lane.
That's innovation.
That's innovation, we got to doit.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Well, Harry, this has been such a fun morning.
Thank you so much for the tourand for your time and for being
so free with your time.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
You're welcome and congratulations on your movie.
Can't wait for it to come out.
Thank you you guys.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Gift of Hope has been supporting the idea of the
movie for over five years now.
That's great so we appreciateyour support so much, so excited
that you're screening it onMarch 22nd and I hope to see you
there.
That's great.
So we appreciate your supportso much, so excited that you're
screening it on.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
March 22nd and I hope to see you there.
That's great.
Let me flip the script a littlebit on you.
So how do you feel after allthis time for it finally coming
to fruition?
What's that like for you?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
I mean, it's about to be out there, right, and I'm
mostly excited.
I'm extremely hopeful that ithas the impact.
Mostly excited, I'm extremelyhopeful that it has the impact.
The impact I'm hoping for isthat some people feel that
lightning strike and end updonating and, you know, I think
some of it will have an impact,you know, for people in the
future, not immediately.
(54:57):
So I'm hopeful, I'm excited andI hope it's well received.
Yeah Well, Lori, it's been saidthat sometimes you will plant a
tree that someone else will baskin the shade, so maybe that'll
be I like that.
Who said that?
Speaker 2 (55:12):
I don't know.
I wish I could tell who it was.
I've repeated it, but I don'tthink I'm the one that came up
with it but just the idea of yes, you know, this is, this is the
seed that you're going to plant, but you might not even bask in
that shade.
I think it was my mother thatsaid the best time to plant a
tree was 20 years ago.
The next best time is today.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Oh, that's a good one too, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
So we will continue pushing on this.
I'm so glad you came by.
Speaker 1 (55:39):
Any final thoughts you have that you'd like to
share with our audience?
Speaker 2 (55:42):
I always leave audience with three things.
Number one educate yourselfabout organ donation.
It's absolutely fascinating.
Number two is if you're not aregistered donor, consider
becoming a registered donor.
And number three after youregister, tell your family about
your decision.
So those are the most threethings I think people need to
remember.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
And we will put links in our show notes so that
people can do that if they'renot already signed up, that's
right to giftofhopeorggiftofhopeorg.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
And then what if they're not in the way?
Speaker 2 (56:11):
You can do registermeorg.
Your local Department of MotorVehicles usually will be able to
register.
So there's lots of differentways.
Apple has a health app whereyou can donate right on the
health app.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
Huh, do you ever?
Is that a thing that comes upwhen you're talking to donor
families Sometimes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
So Steve Jobs famously received a liver that
extended his life and because ofthat, when they made the health
app, he wanted to have the appto be able to go directly to the
national registry so that youcould pull up your health app
and if you're not registered,you can register right on the
health app that was reallyingenious yeah, I know,
zuckerberg did something onfacebook too, where you could
(56:52):
market on facebook right, do youguys?
actually reference that like uhI don't know if we reference
that one.
I know we reference the healthapp.
Um, we have it on our websiteand I think what we want to do
is we want to make it as easyfor people to donate as possible
.
So we just normally tell peoplegiftofhopeorg and people can
also remember registermeorg.
(57:13):
There's the local registry andthen there's the national
registry.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
And you just need to be on one.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
You just need to be on one.
Speaker 1 (57:18):
All right.
Well, thank you for your time.
Thank you for all you're doingfor organ donation in our region
.
We're so lucky to have youleading this effort.
Well, I hope this interview hasdeepened your understanding of
the critical work being donebehind the scenes and inspired
you to consider the vital roleeach of us can play in
supporting organ and tissuedonation.
(57:39):
Please check out my show notesto get on the registry.
If you're not already on theregistry and would like to be,
you can be a tool in the toolboxthat helps end the waitlist for
those in need of a life-savingtransplant.
This season of Donor Diaries isproudly sponsored by GiftWorks,
an organization dedicated toempowering organ recipients and
(58:00):
living donors through education,advocacy and support.
In living donors, througheducation, advocacy and support.
By helping patients share theirjourney and connect with donors
, giftworks ensures everyonefeels supported throughout the
transplant process.
We're honored to partner with ateam that's transforming lives,
one transplant at a time.
To learn more, visityourgiftworkscom.
(58:22):
Every conversation can sparkchange and every choice makes a
difference.
Thanks for listening and keepinspiring those around you.
This is Lori Lee signing off.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
I just want to feel thesunshine.
(58:49):
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you.
I share this life with you,thank you.
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