June 10, 2025 • 48 mins
Kenya Barris talks about his messy childhood, the do’s and don’ts of the writer’s room, laying low during covid, Larry David making Kenya take the leap to star in a show, raising kids better than our parents, running a writer’s room is like conducting music, making podcasts with Malcolm Gladwell, being pals with Jonah Hill, Eddie Murphy putting points on the board, the pleasure and importance of dressing well, and having people around you who can tell you, you suck.
Bio: Kenya Barris is an award-winning writer, producer, director and actor, whose innovative approach to comedy has firmly cemented his place as one of Hollywood’s great modern storytellers. Best known as the creator behind groundbreaking series like ABC sitcom black-ish and the Netflix original series #blackAF, Barris has built a career telling powerful stories that reflect our culture and fearlessly tackle an array of topics.
Most recently, Barris executive produced Diarra From Detroit, a dark comedy about a divorcing schoolteacher who refuses to believe she’s been ghosted by her rebound Tinder date; The Vince Staples Show, a scripted series loosely inspired by the life of multi-hyphenate musician Vince Staples; the final season of grown-ish; and produced The Underdoggs, an Amazon original sports comedy starring Snoop Dogg as a youth football team coach.
In 2023, Barris and his production company, Khalabo Ink Society, received Emmy nominations for two of their projects: Entergalactic, a first-of-its-kind adult animated music project that featured new music from the Grammy Award-winning musician Kid Cudi and CIVIL, a documentary that offered an intimate portrait of groundbreaking civil rights attorney, Ben Crump. Barris also made his feature directorial debut with Netflix’s hit comedy, You People, which he also produced and co-wrote. Barris and Khalabo have multiple high-profile projects in various stages of development. On the television side, projects include: sophomore seasons of Diarra From Detroit and The Vince Staples Show; The Book of Jose, a television series chronicling the life of rapper Fat Joe; Group Chat, a collaboration with Kim Kardashian, based on LaLa Anthony's best-selling book The Love Playbook; a limited series that will offer an intimate look into the life and legacy of the legendary comedian Richard Pryor. On the film side, Barris is developing projects such as: Get Lite starring Storm Reid and marking Teyana Taylor’s feature directorial debut; a remake of It’s A Wonderful Life; a documentary on the life and career of rapper Chief Keef; Yumanzu, a high concept family adventure movie; Girls Trip 2; and The Man Who Lives Underground.
Additionally, Barris and Khalabo have a first-look deal with Audible and in 2023, launched their first podcast, DJ Drama Presents: Gangsta Grillz. Hosted and produced with legendary hip-hop producer, DJ Drama, the popular podcast featured conversations with notable artists such as Tyler, the Creator, Pharrell, Wiz Khalifa, Lil Wayne and more. In 2025, they also launched The Unusual Suspects hosted by Barris and bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell. Barris and Gladwell engage in raw, unfiltered conversations with some of today’s most influential figures and titans across a spectrum of professions, including Ava DuVernay, Dr. Dre, Jimmy Kimmel, Sue Bird, and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Strawut Media. Yo, what can you embarrass? I'm not to
be on Don't Be Alone with Jake Cogan. He hates
being alone. I know this for a fact. We're gonna
make sure we're not alone together. We're gonna be alone together.
That does not come out right right. We're gonna do
with some things together alone. Anyway, watch it today.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Don't Be Alone with jj Cogan.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hi, welcome to Don't Be Alone with Jake Cogan. I'm
your lovable host, Jake Cogan, and I'm really thrilled that
you're here. I'm getting so much positive feedback about the show,
and the shows have been great and they're getting greater,
and I'm really happy that you're joining me and my guests.
Whenever you do, sometimes it's when you're exercising. Sometimes it's
(00:49):
on your commute. Sometimes it's as you're falling asleep. Apparently
I've heard that. So whatever I can do to make
your life better fantastic. I really enjoy it. And thanks,
And if you can, please remember to subscribe to this thing.
It's very easy. Go to YouTube press subscribe. It costs
you nothing. And if you can recommend it to a friend,
even better and better yet, communicate with me at dbawjk
(01:12):
at gmail dot com. That's dbaw jk at gmail dot com.
That's my email address. You send your compliments, your criticisms.
I'm open to all of it. And send your questions
to my guests. Life questions, big life questions. I know
you don't know the guests. That's okay. Today we have
an amazing show for you as usual per USU. My
friend Kenya Barris, who is become a showed as a stalwarth.
(01:37):
He's been this amazing giant and shows. When I knew him,
he was just a guy in a writer's room, but
he created Blackish and all the spin offs of that
like Grownish and Youngish and Bluish and whatever else. All
the Ish shows are Kenya's. He's also done started in
his own show, which is a black af He's been
(02:00):
writing and directing movies and doing a million things podcasts
and uh, it's going to be interesting to track his
journey from some just regular comedy writer to sort of
mogul and maybe he says some maybe he has some
hints for me on my I'm not yet a mogul.
I've been doing it longer than he has and I'm
(02:20):
not yet a mogul, but ken you will tell us
the secret. We will be right back with Kenya Barris
right after this.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Don't be alone with jo.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I'm very happy to see you and very grateful that
you came.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I'm super happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
That was really nice. And so the fact that you're
an hour late means nothing. And I don't blame that
on your people. I blame that completely on you. I mean,
the audience doesn't know this, but but but that we
met many years ago. I don't know if it's twenty
years ago, probably okay, twenty years ago, and you were
(03:04):
the writer, a funny writer on a little sitcom, and
back then you were just you were very open to
what was going on, but you were very interested. I
mean if even then you had an eye on big things,
like you talked about like you had Collabo as it
was a company that you started then, and you were
(03:25):
doing creating shows, you know, the model shows. You had
a lot of things going on always.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, so it was quiet in the room. I was
trying to be such a fun that was such always Fogman,
Dan Fogerman, who's our friend of ours, who's become the
head of the town. He wasn't even that was his
first show. He was like parking cars or something before that, right,
and or doing something. I wasn't parking cars, but like,
(03:53):
it was such a funny group of people. You know
what I'm saying. All those people have going on, and
not all but a lot of them, and I see them,
you know, and Fogum has kept quite a few of
them around. But it was I got to learn a lot. Yeah,
you know what I'm saying being on this show.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, let's talk about that. What's the what are what
are the best things you learned on the show? Whether
the worst things you learned?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So I have been a writer's assistant before you affectionately
named our writer ressistant because you didn't want to learn
their names Tippity and Tappity. Okay, can we switch out
Tappity and get Tippity in here?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Because you know, how can we dehumanize people? What's the
best way to dehumanize it? Tippandy tell Tappity. I don't know,
but I felt like I learned.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I have been a writing since so I kind of
understood that there was there is a great way in
how some people they want to get in writing there's
no better way than being a writer assistant or SCOPT coordinator.
I know all the programs and all that ship, but
it really comes down to like being in the room,
being in the game, you know what I'm saying. Even
it's like being a practice player. Yeah, you know I'm
(05:01):
saying something. You're a practice player and you can just
go crazy.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, the real thing about her being a writer is
you're just you have to sit there and ship, right,
Like you have to sit and write and writers assistants
have to write. Like it's not when you're a writer,
you don't have to really concern yourself if it's good
or if it's bad. It's just you just write it down.
And you're a writer, you also have to try to
(05:24):
not concern yourself too much whether it's good or it's bad.
You just have to write it. And so it's really
good practice for that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It really is. And it was crazy when you'd sit
there and the writers just sit Now I understood stood
because I do it. But like we'd have hilarious like
room rattering laughter and they'd get to in it and
we're like, does someone have to die for you to
write that down? Does someone have to literally start bleeding.
(05:50):
Sure before you realize that was probably something we should.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Want to make that mistake and write the wrong thing down.
That's the thing that they're most afraid of.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
But they're getting a show because sometimes you're getting some
of the brightest, those most charismatic, funny people in the
room putting on a stand up set for you.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
It can be it also can be brutal. Used to
be not anymore because they fire people now for that
kind of stuff. But it used to be also rough.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Very rough, very rough. I still like a rough room.
I still like to get my friends who I cannot
room because my big thing is like, as long as
it's not malicious.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, Well, that's the thing that's missing now. People didn't understand,
like tippitty and tappity. If I said that to people,
I probably think I hope they understood my intent was
not truly to dehumanize them, but it was trying to
be fun. They liked it because they were trying to
be funny. How funny is it to dehumanize people. It's
a joke. It was a joke on a joke. In
other words, it's the intention. If you assume somebody says
(06:48):
something with good intention, you can hear a lot. If
you assume that it's just what they said, then you
can't hear anything.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I agree, it's hazing and I think that my favorite comedians,
some of them I've had to have conversations with recently,
but like, for the most part, the brilliance was brilliant.
And then sometimes I don't know if it's success or
if it's personal names, it crosses over into malice. I'm like,
let's cross back. I'm like, you're the best, You're the
(07:15):
best in the world. Like, let's just cross a little
bit back, you know what I'm saying. And just I
think you need people. They need they need people around
them that it's gonna say that.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
And so you feel you feel like you can bring
people back from the dark side if I'm.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Close enough to them what I'm saying, or if they'll
listen to me, because oftentimes they get sick offens and
people who are on the on the payroll and it's like,
let them go, let them go, And I'm like, but
you're gonna let him go off the cliff You're saying, like,
bring it back. You don't need to be malice malicious,
you know, I'm saying you can be just as funny
as you were. Just edge it back a little bit.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You know, people who work with you are feel confident
to say speak yours truth to power.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I hope. So I've been working with basically the same group,
and we get writers rooms of different people, but general
I usually try to keep at least two or three
of it's probably six or seven dudes. At least try
to keep two or three, if not all of them
together because I think they they're the ones. So like,
the fuck are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Dude?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Like I'm saying, like when you're too off off ar
or they'll be like you look sleepy, right, what was
what happened this weekend?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Like?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Are what's up with you? In bowl? Like what's happening?
They'll ask you.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's a long conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Acould the real questions I'm saying, which I think you
really need to be asked or to keep you in line.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
That's good. I feel that way too. The writer's room
used to be that place where you can talk about
your life, talk about the things you had to in
order to get through, you know, get interesting ideas about
what's going on. Now. When I go from place to place,
I have to feel it out. And for the most part,
it's just like what would the character say and what
would they do?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And I know that's the part of our business that
like fil Rosenthal used to have, those guys stayed forever. Right,
my time was over. Everybody was an eepy you know
what I'm saying. People even got pieces, you know what
I'm saying. But like it was Monday morning and I
was like, Phil, this is true. I was like, it
was Monday morning. Wasn't about story. It was I wish
you as to this weekend. Yeah, because that's the best
(09:13):
way to get into the story. Everybody just told their
stories that from that weekend.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
And we should be doing Phil Rosendal's podcast because he's
got a good one. So like we should here and
go see what Phil is having his his his great podcast.
So okay, So Kenya, let me ask you something. You
and I both kind of grew up in la You
grew up in like Inglewood Ish and.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Brought in Proquema, grew up at Ingleborough.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
All right, it feels to me when I met you,
it feels to me that you always were destined to
be a show business guy. Now I don't know why,
I feel that way because history doesn't necessarily say everyone
every You know where you're from, and the people that
you grew up with aren't all in chill business. So
so what is it about you? Do you think that
(10:02):
attracted to this thought you could do it? You know,
you had a certain amount of confidence to do it,
but you're not. You're not like overly you have confidence,
but you also have a little bit of humble this
to you at the same time, which of course makes
you endearing, but but you really do like you have
both of those things going on at the same time.
(10:24):
That's a rare combination. What do you think pushed you here?
And you know you're rocketed you to success.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I wanted to be a doctor. My kid's mom's a doctor.
Organic chemistry happened and I was like, this isn't for me.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Same thing to me. I considered being a doctor and
I went to organic and organic chemistry and failed immediately
and said, okay, I.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Had never felt anything. Yeah in my life. In class school,
I was getting like nines Like I was like, this
is it is literally Greek to me. I don't know
what's going on, So I couldn't do that. And then
I liked writing. I'm like, I don't doing jokes, wrote
a play, got produced while I was in school, started
going to like stand up clubs Earthquake Cat That's great
(11:07):
club in Atlanta. Would see certain comics.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Were you doing stand up while you're in college?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I was trying to open mics, trying trying to do
open mics, but realized I could hear other comics voices
throughout some jokes and some comics they used my jokes.
Maybe give me twenty, maybe give me nothing. You know
what I'm saying. But realized I could hear other people's voices.
Kind of realized that was like maybe something to do
(11:35):
my At the time, my wife's uncle was this guy,
Ralph Farquhar. He had created Moesha and a bunch of stuff.
This lady Felicia Henderson how to show. He interested me
in her, got him as a PA. Steve Stark was
the head of the Paramom Writer's program. He helped me
get into that. Did did you know just got into
(11:56):
the program thing or whatever? Really realized that in TV
in particular, especially at that time, TV writers were like, God,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah, No, it was a cool, cool tide to the TV.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Right it was, and like seeing those guys like come
in and get lunches, which I completely fucked up every day.
But like you know, sneaking in and hearing you know,
sometimes you get the writer system will let you sub
in for a second. We're just hearing the jokes, hearing
the jokes come from the room, seeing them work on
the floor. Tape nights, you know what I'm saying, where
you really got to see the stars shine. You know
what I'm saying, You were great tape night. But like
(12:28):
but just seeing that you kind of get addicted to it.
Like I went to Black College, went to the owner
to Clark, but at the same mentors as doctor Ackerberg
a Spike Lee. I don't want to be a director.
Realize directing you need money to get people together and
this and that. With writing, you just need a laptop.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Yeah, you could be a one man show with the writer.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
You really could. And then seeing as any anybody ever,
PA is always tell them like read everything that comes
across your desk. And one day that's the budget came
across my desk and I looked up and I was like,
this dude makes what and I was like, this dude
snoops in his office every day, you know what I'm saying.
And I was like, I remember doing the thought was
like it would take me three years to make you know,
(13:14):
But I realized that that was what, you know, something
that was you could have a lot of control of.
I wasn't into the movie thing because I was at
the TV and we actually had particularly during that time,
we got to create, execute, edit, and prove and then
put out our things within a certain amount of time.
And the timiness of and the things we could talk
(13:36):
about really attracted me.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Also, you have this other skill that you still have
to this day, and it is you're very good with people.
You have people skills. You're very kind to me unnecessarily.
So I thank you for that. But that's but it's
your you know, it's it's it's lovely that you're you
credit me with things that I don't deserve, which I've
(13:58):
always appreciate me. But but everybody loved you. I mean,
it's like it's not a person from Norman Lear to
Eddie Murphy Dan like, you get along with people in
a way that a lot of people don't. Where does
that come from?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So I think I grew up in a burning house. Yeah, crazy,
crazy craziness, abuse and toxicity and all the kind of
stuff that goes around wrong with that. But I think
when you grew up in a burning house, people say like,
you're good at putting it on fires. I'm like, yeah,
because I grew up in a It's not a scale
skill you want to necessarily have, which you get it,
but I definitely feel like it gives you what I
(14:34):
think is missing and from so many people empathy, you
know what I'm saying. And sympathy is different than empathy.
Empathy as you felt it. Sympathies you can understand how
that might feel, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Well, who tests I'm sure there have been you've been
in situations where you're directing a movie or you're directing
something and a star or a crew member is testing
your empathy many.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Many, many times. I think that conversations actually really help
a lot when you're actually able to sort of say like,
maybe it's a after work hall, Maybe it's like you
want to have a drink. Maybe it's like a knock
on the trailer. The trailer knocks don't necessarily work as
much because They're still in their in their in their zone,
(15:18):
whatever that is. But like some moments like bro, like
it's this is not going well, don't be alone with so.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
But how do you take that moment where somebody who
is acting like a big baby or rationally or whatever.
They're in a moment and you're trying to be empathetic
to whatever that moment is, but you want to get
your day done. Part of me is like I'm looking
at the watching I gotta get the day done. I
got to find a way to get this person out
of the trailer. I'm not as empathetic in that moment
(16:05):
because I'm more concerned with the two hundred other people
that have to work. Can you turn that off and
really get into their head or what?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I've realized that somebody told Julie's Ruffis told me something
and I was like, and it's crazy because they both
for on Sign For Jason Alexander had a similar thing.
Jason Alexander had a one of the best moments in
my life. Right it's working on show with him and
he came to the writer's room. We were about to
have a table reading. He goes, guys, We're like, oh,
it's Jason. He's like, the script, this isn't it And
(16:36):
we're like oh, And he was like, we're five minutes
from the table reading shit, and he's like, we're gonna
have to work on this. And he would go to
the table read and as you would imagine he's an actor,
he didn't like it. He's gonna tak it right. He
doesn't just not tank it right, he makes hels Old
out of it. I mean, it's one of our best
(16:59):
table reading is people. Executives are crying, writers are laughing,
you know what I'm saying, we're high fiving. We go
back to the room, We're like, what a what a
limits to lemonade moment? Right? And he comes in he's like, guys,
we still got to work on this right, And we
were like, absolutely, sir, because the idea that actors are magic,
(17:20):
and instead of being petulant and poudy, he took and
used his magic and lifted what was shit. He tryed,
he shines shit, you know what I'm saying, and he
did it in a way that only he could do it.
And so we were more than happy to work on
that script and get it to exactly what he wanted
to get to Julia's rife has told me we were
doing something and it was you know, it's hard or whatever,
(17:42):
and she was like, this guy's been doing this is
a guy, this has been happening for a long time.
You're not going to be the person to stop it.
What you can do is stop it for now. You
know what I'm saying. You can And the way that
you can do that is if you can't past you
haven't quite been in this person's shoes, you can sympathize
(18:03):
with maybe what's happening at the moment. And it made
me really realize, like at the moment when you can
talk to people, and I think some people actually need
to be said this to, Like, dude, people are like
turning on you out there. You know what I'm saying,
These people want to come to work every day for you,
but they're kind of starting to turn on you. And
I don't want to turn over you because you know,
and and like people actually respond to that because sometimes
(18:26):
they don't have a lot of people around.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I don't feel threatened by that, and I would feel
threatened a little bit, like people, you're you're the people
around you are turning on you.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Threatened, You're you're everyone's in service of the project, right.
And I think if you can remember that everyone should
be in services that they should, and if you can
remember that, you can say, Okay, this isn't going to change.
Let's pivot, you know what I'm saying. I think that's
where the TV right. I think TV writers actually make,
particularly multigamer TV rights, who can we make really good
producers and really good directors because you learn how to
(18:55):
improvise and how to pivot in the moment, and so
you could realize that this, this moment is not going
to work. Right, How do I sort of jump ahead
and realize what I'm going to do in editing? How
can I get around this? You know what I'm saying?
How can I do that? Now? Let's not keep any
want to hear any longer. It's gonna make this any worse.
Let's get out of this. I can fix this in editing.
(19:16):
I can cut this. I can figure this out another day.
I can pick it up if I have to. I
can you know, swing around and get I think those
types of moments, when you have to get to it,
that helps.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I guess I was asking also a slightly deeper question,
which is we're both. If you grow up the way
you're saying, you grow up, and I only doubt you,
like twenty percent, if you grow up, then you're scarred.
You have this this stuff that's going on, and then
you know your filter of life and world and especially
family comes through that mess. And then you can't help
(19:48):
but let a little bit of that influence one way
or another. So like you have to either you're raising
your family or having your family in reaction to what
you had, right, you're trying a good fight against that,
or or you're embracing it. Maybe too much of it
flows in, but you're constantly measuring yourself up against what
you went through.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I think for me, like it's it's it's sobster like
I have brother who passed leukemia, or brother's schizophrenia. Brother
stabbed on you know, an alley on Thanksgiving. Mom broken
jawwat she was pregnant with me. Abusive dad. Dad went
to jail with me in the house for selling drugs.
(20:30):
Mom shot the stuff that feels like what I'm sorry
story exactly, But like I realized that I still got
I still had a really loving my dad loved me,
He loved me the best he could my mom really
loved me.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
That's exactly the best they could, the best they could.
That means a lot. So while you're hurting and saying
I wish this and I wish that the adult part
of us in and goes look at where this person
came from. Yes, look at what how they grew up
and the best they could means a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That the tragedy and the and the toxicity that your
parents had they didn't mean to, but they passed down
to you, and you probably and somewhere are passing on
your are.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
I mean, that's my big fear. That's exactly what the
big fear. That's exactly what's happening. I am definitely passing
on other things.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
But give them the right to talk to you about it.
That was the biggest thing, is like me being able
to forgive myself for what I did, but mostly I
forget my mom and my dad and realized that they
did the best they could, and then I'm doing the
best could. And the difference and the change and the
cycle that you can break is you can allow your
kid to talk to you about what their experience.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
What's your kid?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
What are your kids biggest criticisms of you I'm too
big of a personality.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I get that same thing.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I'm too big of a personality, and I think, like,
you know, I think, like, why let you guys do
what you want. You guys curse at me, and I'm like,
that's great, and they love that, you know what I'm saying,
And they can be honest with me about certain things.
But sometimes everything's a joke, right, you know what I'm saying.
Sometimes everything's a joke, and I'm like, it's it's funny
to everyone else around, but that person feels it really heavily,
(22:15):
and so I have sort of like I'm trying to
meet her, you know what I'm saying, because that big
personality is my defense mechanism of how I dealt with
the things that were happening to me one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I'm my wife Brown, as you know, in love. She
has told me on many occasions recently, can't you just
say yes, we're here or just hear me without making
a joke? Does everything have to be fodder for a joke? Yes?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
My daughter when she told me she was gonna go,
when she told me that her fiance now that she
was going to visit her, she was like well, you know,
we're not just friends. And I guess I know now,
and she's like, do you care? And I go, I mean,
do you care? And she's like, I don't know. I
was like, I'm more upset than she's white that she's
then she's not a guy, right, And she laughed. And
(23:03):
I think in that moment it was great. But when
I repeat that moment or I say it around other people,
it's like that, come on, you're making this, it's your thing.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Tell me about this podcast you were doing with the
you know, the greatest podcast of all time.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
We're doing doing second season. I'm a huge fan of Malcolm.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Malcolm Gladwell who did Revisionist History, which is probably the
greatest podcast in the history of and and.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
His books which changed my life. You know what I'm
saying from think you know, you know, uh tip point
to outliers. All these things with the dogs are But
I learn there's some moments where you just sit back
and just learn. And I sit back and just watch
him and just learn. But it's kind of like double Dutch.
We kind of like how did you get Like like
(23:52):
like I met in the room, I met him at
a restaurant. It's kind of approached him at a restaurant
and like, I never do this, you know I'm saying,
but he could not be sweet. We exchanged information and
kept in touch. He was beyond support to me. I
did this show on Netflix, saw black as far he
was being. He sent me a personal note and then
didn't text me right after I got like some bad
(24:13):
reviews or whatever. And people started really liking the show,
and he was one of the first people who vocally
spoke about it, and we became.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I wrote you a note when you did this show.
I didn't know. I didn't get an invitation to a
podcast with you doing I say, you're good. I said,
the show's good. I said, who knew you could act?
I did a whole thing.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No one knew I could act. No, I still doesn't act.
But he got He made me feel it was it
was he got what I was trying to do right,
which was satire, which white people don't really get a
lot of a chance to do. You know what I'm saying,
We don't get to do satire a lot. And that
was one of the biggest things that I was, like,
you got it. That was the thing that was really
(24:52):
the mold. I was trying to break was like to
do satire.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
It felt like, in a very good way, a very
interesting perspective that only you could bring to the It's
the car Reiner of it all. Carl Reiner said, do
a show that only you could do, and he did
it with Blackish, but he also did it with Black af.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Larry David made me, or not made me convince me
to actually be in it. And I'm saying Michelle Deshaun
So I worked with, worked with Larry, did forever. Got Larry,
who I'm just like a super fan of, got Larry
on the phone with me and we had a great
actor cast. Rashida was like, I really Tria Jones was
like I really want you to do it and I
was like what and she was like, it just takes you.
(25:33):
And I was like and then I got Larry and
phone and Hill was like, how do I get prepared
for this? He was like just to you and he
was like, use the auditions and he said, well, you
know audition people use those as your rehearsals. And I
was like, oh, that's interesting. And he was like, improv
with these people and the rehearsals and I was like,
and that became the technique. It's like when we got
probably rehearsals, if I could play with him, then I
(25:56):
could act with him. And because I directed it and
one of the greatest things out in the office kind
of I stole from the office and probably other things
that it that whole sort of like mocumentary, like long wins,
like people don't know what you're talking, but actually getting
you Like it allows you not have to do to
do turnarounds, right, you know what I'm saying, Because turnarounds
(26:17):
where you really have to be an actor. Yeah, when
you have to do like to.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Do it again, do it again, have the soda in
the same hand, all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
So not having to do turnarounds really helped me. I'm saying.
Having to we shot it into's and this and that
and that really made it so it can feel more
natural and it made me a better writer. Like you
do stand up whenever you actually have to perform. It
actually helps your writing for sure in a different way.
And I tell every writer if you can get a chance,
(26:46):
I don't care if it's going to take a class
at UCV.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Or definitely take an acting class. It helps because it's
we think, well, we writers most writers who don't act think,
why don't they say it the way I've wrote? Why
don't they say it the way that's in my head?
And they don't realize that's not how that works.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
That's exactly right. And that person you might have wrote
on him across you might have wrote it in a
way that makes a person like uncomfortable in the response.
And so the idea of like trying to now write
and be like a person has to talk to another
person and I said do something while they're doing that,
you write it differently.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You're like, you open up. It improves your ability to write.
Blocking within the who's the greatest that you've worked with
the greatest.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
The greatest provisational person I worked with his show on him,
he is like nothing else I've ever seen, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Yeah, I was gonna say he's probably the grumpiest too.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
But he has his moments. But because he's the director
and a writer, you know what I'm saying, And we
actually are friends. The times that we actually had moments,
I called him and he'd be like, yeah, I did
do that, And I'm like, what you're admitting this same
saying And he was like yeah, I do it, and
he actually was when he was really he actually a
great documentary.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Therapy was a big in this documentary. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Everyone should see it. He also had a kid now
and he's like one of my closer friends. We've we've
had hit hit our bumps when he did our movie,
but like he's one of my closer friends, Like you
know in this because like I've seen and we experienced it.
Ye was talking Hi about my kids and he came
back to me one ding he was like, you know,
you told me what kids did for you. He was like,
(28:27):
I didn't believe you. He was like, and I've seen
the change, and he's seen the change of me. He's
helped me. He helped me in so many ways because
he supported me in ways that he didn't have to.
And sometime he got mad at me in ways he
didn't have to. But like and sometimes I would say
getting I did a movie with him and Eddie Murphy
and people would get mad Eddie and Eddie might be
(28:48):
a little later this and that, but when you've seen it,
when when you when you're looking at that thing and
you're like, oh, that's a movie star.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Oh for sure, Well I mean, Jonah, Yes, and Eddie.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Oh my god, Eddie's surgical. People don't realize that Eddie,
in terms of what you put on that page. It's
almost Ron burgundyish, you know what I'm saying. Like, he's
gonna read, he's gonna remember his lines, so if the
lines work, he is surgical. He told me something. He
was like, when you get me on a movie for
good gets you in a movie and he gets me
(29:19):
for seven weeks. He was like, look, if you can't
make something out of this, that's on you. He's like,
because I'm gonna give you my same twenty eight, eight
and eight, I'm gonna put up my points. I'm saying,
you can't get something out of that, you can't win.
And he was surgical and him and Jonah and Jonah
bouncing after him. It was some of the stuff that
(29:39):
never made the movie, but was. I was like, oh
my god, I'm so blessed to be having these dudes together.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
It was really fun. And you people, it was so
fun to see that see them together. I worked briefly
with Eddie on the Night Professor and Shrek.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Were you there?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Well, yeah, But I was really sort of a Mike
Myers camp for that. But yeah, but it's like nobody.
He's sitting there like not I guess the movie star,
but just like you know this nightty professor, he's he's
burying the weight of this movie on his shoulders. And
these writers come in and he's looking me at my
(30:15):
partner Wally, and looking at us, looking up and down
like so you guys work on the Simpsons, Like he
analyzed us within thirty seconds said okay, and then we're
ready to hear stuff from us and knew what to
take and what not to take like he was. He
knew it. He has it within him to do whatever
the fuck he wants. Yes, And that's it's amazing to me.
(30:38):
Did you see him on the fiftieth the S and
L fiftieth thing? It was phenomenal, unbelievable And that was
no rehearsal Right, that just becomes Tracy Morgan. Yeah, he
just becomes Tracy Morgan. Unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And he the thing about Eddie, I went Eddie a
lot of times, especially COVID or write or post COVID.
I'm aphobe, right, but we we You always go to
the house, beautiful home, and you go sit there and
in twenty minutes you're having a conversation and he'll he'll
do j Cogan yeah, and you're like, ohd on are
(31:13):
you doing me? And he doesn't consider himself an impression us.
I'm saying, it's just he has always say Will Smith
one of the biggest actors in the world, right, but
he outworks everybody. Tom Cruise outworks everybody. Eddie Murphy could
have been born in a box in Calcutta.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Right, and he was going to be a star.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I think the reason I'm not as big as Tom
Cruise is I don't outwork everybody. That's the thing, that's
the thing that holds you back. I wish.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Don't be alone with Jja Cogan.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
All right, So here's here's everybody who comes on. Don't
be alone with Jay Cogan. Uh is here to solve
my problem, okay. And one of the problems that I
thought you'd be good to solve is because you've been
working with Malcolm Gladwell and like and for some reason,
and this is kind of funny to me because I've
known you forever, but people have said, oh, well, you know,
(32:21):
Kenya Barris has an eye on what's happening in the future,
and it's like, you know, he's he's not a prognosticator
of society, but an observer of society, a grand observer
of society. So the pisser in the writer's room is
the grand observer society. So okay, So from your perspective,
what the fuck is going on with a show business
(32:43):
and be the world? And what what should we be
looking to to looking out for in terms of what
are you looking out for in terms of the world
for your kids?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
What's what?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
What do we what should we worry about most? And
what's what's coming that's good.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I think that we're about to have like the greatest
generation of activists ever ever made, honestly, like more than
more than Vietnam War. I think we're what is happening
is the greatest generation of social activists right now being formed.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
That would be amazing considering it seems like the society
is so apathetic, like we're just letting everything steamroll over us.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I think that that is true. But the but the
ones who aren't that small narrow group of young people
who aren't apathetic, who aren't just letting social media and
TikTok and materialism draw them, they are stronger. They're more
resilient than any anybody before them. And I think that
I've seen I've seen it the way that they talk
(33:45):
with When you get a group of these kids together,
I'm like, oh.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
This can you say a large group of protesters? Are
you're talking about your kids?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I remember my kids like but like some of some
of my kids, all of them, but I'm talking about
their friends. Are of the things that they actually want
to stand up for. I feel like my daughter was
having a conversation with me about you know, the trans conversation, right,
and she was like, she was like, this is like
like you know, the magic prestige trick. She was like,
(34:12):
they're doing this so that they can go in your
pocket here. She was like, sure, this is not a
conversation just percentage wise that requires the amount of conversation
has But it's it's it's it's required. It causes a
lot of distraction, right, It's a it's a hot.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Button issue that really affects almost no.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
One, right. And it's not that it's not that it's
not important, but it's not as important as what they're
taking out this pocket. I'm saying, they're causing this huge
disruption I'm saying gay marriage was this huge disruption that
was caused you know what I'm saying, and almost decided
an election. You're causing a suite disruption. She was like
paying attention to what the handgoing in your pocket, and
(34:53):
we can education is being destroyed. Everything is you know, uh, immigration,
which this country was bounded.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
On, economic disparity is being is being you know, it's
it's horrifying gap.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
We're insane where you have ten people but we're cool.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Now, we're cool.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
That's right. I know some of those times exactly. No,
but when you have ten people who control ninety eight
percent of the wealth of the world, it's nuts, you
know what I'm saying with that, Like, that's not I
don't think that's a crazy number. I think that's actually
a true number. Like you have like ten people who
control or ten people along with companies who control ninety
eight percent.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
That is insane, and that is nothing good can come
from that. That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Everyone has health care and everyone gets to eat. You
don't need to change society to make that happen. No society.
That could happen today very easily. Yeah, I mean there's
really things like childcare and elderly care. These are things
that could happen with the richest country in the world.
You have people just decided we shouldn't make that happen,
and maybe we tax a little bit more of the
people who are the most wealthy in the world. That
(36:02):
mean specific, but it's like it's really I mean, that's
the thing. It's like, you don't have to trade in
everything to get some of these things to happen. Oh,
I want to ask you something else. This is what
I want to ask which I've never asked you before.
You have this big deal after you're coming off of
Black and you had this big deal at Netflix, and
(36:23):
at some point you traded it in. What went into
that decision to trade in? Because if they Netflix gave
me a gazillion dollar deal, it would take a lot
for me to say, you know what, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I got the deal I traded in for was still
pretty large.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
But I no, no, But I mean when Netflix that
the hottest place is sick.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I did it because at the time I wanted to
have some ownership stake, and that was the big part.
Was that the ownership take of the city, which no
one really had done before saying it. I learned a lot.
You learned to learn more from mistakes than your things.
I don't know if it was mistaken, but like also
went to a company that at the time, just as
(37:07):
things happened, was in flux. You know. Now we see
the sky Dance, you know, right, that was starting kind
of right with my I went there during pandemic, so
there was nothing I could do during pandemic, so I
was hopeful. Then right shortly after pandemic, right to strike happened,
so that put the thing on it. Then right after
that the company sold or it has been in the
(37:28):
process of selling. So I don't know if it was.
You know, just timing wasn't great. I've been really lucky,
you know what I'm saying. Recently we kind of geared
back up. We have a lot of things, you know,
going movies kept me, you know what I'm saying into things.
That's why people are like, why do you do so much?
I hear so many people that are like, he's not
writing this, He's not right now, and I'm like, no,
(37:50):
I'm writing. I was like, but I just constantly write,
I absolutely positively right in a with a form of
people I'm saying as a lot of people do, and
I think it's the best way a lot of things.
I will write myself and then we get to the
forum and we break it down. I think some of
(38:10):
my favorite writers have done that. I want, you know, saying,
I think we all know them.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
But I feel like I write, and I also need
a group of people to tell me what's good. I
always and I'm happy to help people to say.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I always used to say when I started this, I
was like I wanted to be the black jot oup
of town, right because I just loved what he was
doing and how he kind of took something that wasn't
their nerd cheek and all that and like made it
a thing. He has a group of people, he writes,
but he has a group of people that he trusts
that gets together and that group has grown and grown
and grown. And I use that format, you know thing.
(38:42):
I think that the ambition part of it is like
seeing what podcasts were and then all of a sudden
saying like, well, how can I do it not and
not feel like I'm just being derivative and do something different.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
This is where you and I disagree. I want to
be derivative. I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it
as long as people subscribe. It needs to subscribe to
my show, But I don't care if it's Joaman.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I wanted to I want to do something that was that,
and I also wanted to do movies. Was really interesting
to me. Because comedy has to come back. Yeah, that
is one of the things.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
I really how it's gone away.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
It kept the lights on forever and I'm definitely gonna
has to come back. And I think it needs to
come back to theaters, not just on streaming. You know
what I'm saying, because Netflix sit great with nobody wants
this or running Point or this this, but in general,
it is not the same as a big modern family
show or a big Simpsons or a big you know,
(39:36):
Meet the Parents or Taladega Nights or Anchor Man. I
think that it needs to come back in a really, really,
really big way.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I wonder if you know, with the attention span or what,
whether kids who play video games or watching YouTube, if
that's changed the taste or the desire or the patience
for people to watch stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I don't, I honestly don't. So because you know, kids
like Drew Ski and Kay Sinnett and you know, and
I show you people there's these there's these streamers who
are getting massive amounts of money and getting massive viewership,
right and they just sit up and make jokes all
day with their friends. I think it's it's finding how
(40:19):
do you sort of like help them structure that into
what is a show?
Speaker 3 (40:24):
All right, now it's time for our listener mail.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Now it's time for listener man.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Dear Jay and guest, regarding the writer's room, what part
of the job do you think it's harder than the
public would expect and what part is easier than we
might expect? From Ken? Thank you for the question. Ken,
I sent that in that's my alter you kid. You
sent that. It's a terrible name for you.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
My answers are that and Manja. Two things. There's two.
There's super Echol and I think Sean is one example. Shanda.
I've seen it happen. A story will be not working
and she can come in and almost like a beautiful
mind esque way, this group of brilliant you know what
I'm saying, ivy league educated, blah blah, and she can
(41:14):
move and be like this show here is here, and
you're like, oh, shit, you're Shanda Rhymes R right. It's
anyone who's ever worked for I dare you to tell
me I'm wrong. I'm saying, like, well, she can find
out where things can go. I'm saying she's not in
the room. But that's a special skill. But the other
thing that I think you have, there's a guy named
Pete Holmes who's a comedian. He loved Pete, he had
(41:37):
it and he doesn't like being in a rising room.
But he's one of something something really really special. I've
worked for this girl. I worked a Laura Guten. I
think has certain people. I have seen Lindsay Shockley Jonathan grow.
But there is something to a person who can just
(42:02):
off the cuff. This is why I always tell people
the comedians get so mad at me. I'm like, we
can have We should put this on Netflix. This is
the show we should do comedy writers versus stand ups.
I will fucking every day, seven days of the week,
and twice on Sunday, take a comedy ride over a
stand up. You know what I'm saying, because because we
(42:22):
every day have to come in with new material and
throw out one hundred jokes to fit into a script.
You know, what I'm saying, you're throwing out ten to
fifteen twin jokes per thing, and you're doing it at
rapid pace, and some of those jokes are the funning
jokes we've ever fucking heard, you know I'm saying. And
the idea of getting those people who are able to
(42:44):
do that. You're a joke gun, Pete Holmes a joke.
There are certain people who are just like, they can
fire jokes and they don't get tired. They get tired,
but they still will like it. I'm saying, reload and
the idea of being a those people and like actually
understanding that that is a God given gift. That is
(43:06):
something that people. I don't think people understand that those
comedy writers are something special.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
The thing about jokes, especially in a sitcom, is it's
not just jokes. It's character.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
It's character.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
It's character, situation in that moment, it's character. Yes, so
you're putting your head in that character. You're becoming that character.
Just like when you were listening to your stand up
comedy voice and you heard that, you're sitting in that
room and becoming a character. And so it's not even
about jokes. It's about what's the situation in that character, for.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
That situation, for that moment that goes along with what's
going on. But that's why I think comedy writering has
actually taken a hit, because you get people in a
room who don't have that right and you start being like, oh,
like you know what I'm saying, You start feeling it,
you know what I'm saying, Like those guys when you
started looking at shows and you're in a can you
(43:56):
imagine being in a room with like John Mulaney, you
know what I'm saying, and just like and some of
those guys and like who like literally the things that
they think of.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
But that goes to the other part of the question
regarding the writer's room. What's the worst part of the
job that people don't know? So now you're at a
party with some of them for industry, you're John Mulaney
and all these people, and you're at a party with
them for six months. Okay, it's not funny after a while.
It's really kind of annoying after a while, yes, And
like you're sitting in the same room and hearing the
same bits and the same thing, and it's like that's
(44:26):
the part that people don't realize that we get used
to each other. Yes, we get annoyed with each other,
and it gets tiring. Yes it does, and it gets
That's what the atrophy starts to kick in.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
You know what I'm saying. When you're like, okay, you
know what I'm saying, he's gonna say this type of thing.
Or I will even say the thing that I will
tell you a lot of young writers is it is
it can become. You can become sort of a weeping
willow if you let yourself when you're in the room
with these big personal audies who have that god given
(44:57):
skill and you don't. You may not have that, have that,
but you have something else. You gotta find your thing
right and not let that person overshadow you to the
point where it becomes like you take your swings. You
gotta take your swing.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yes, that's just it, he said, Like, and they're not
all going to hit and nobody does. You gotta take
your swings. Yes, all right, So good answer, Well done.
Now we're onto the moment of joy.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
A moment of joy.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
What gives me joy? I think this is the lamest thing.
But I'm gonna be honest. I think I'll say two
things as one of them is the thing. Ever, I
think putting together a great outfit. All right, I'm just
gonna be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
By the way, that is absolutely true of you. You're
a guy who has put together outfits. You always have.
I've always been impressed by it. It's like the shoes matched,
the pants match, the jets, like, what the hell? And
for every team you had a jacket for every team
that you loved, your head pint it all. God went to.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Get any other great off against your way.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
No, it is that just because you're a fashion you
have a fashion sense, or is that just there was.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
This moment in the Matrix and this is like a
really long route to go. Morpheus tells Neil when he
brings him too that white room, and Neil's just taking
the pill and he's like, why do we dress like this?
Or a matrix? He was like this, that's your residual
self image. And I was like, and I was like,
oh shit, Like they Wolsey said something really interesting and
(46:34):
I was like, that's what your clothes are, you know
what I'm saying. And it doesn't matter if it's you
with your hats, you know what I'm saying. Or this
with that or you know what it used to be
the diet Cox it was like it was like but like,
there's things that tell the world this is who I am,
you know what I'm saying. And being able to do
that with clothes so that people don't people know you
(46:58):
before they know you, or have a sense of who
you are before they have a sense of who you are.
And when you're able to do that and you're like,
I like the way this looks and it kind of
says who I want the world to see me as
and it's not a false representation and it's a real
representation that gives me a sense of joy. And going
to going to a basketball game, those are two I
(47:19):
love going to I love going to see live sports.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Who's your team these days?
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Clippers? Then the Clipper is going to be the Clippers,
right even though four years first round out the playoffs,
I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick by all right.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Well that's that's that's it. I mean, we're letting you go.
I love you, truly, I love you, truly love you.
I don't see enough of you. Sometimes You're hard to
get hold. Since become very big you're hard to get
a hold of.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
That's the thing we connected on. It is humanity. We
both have a desire to see the thing behind the
thing behind the thing, and that's what we both sort
of like kind of like found in ourselves, you know
what I'm saying too, And so humanity is finally men.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Glad, welcome, call me whatever. You could use a little
advertising support for this show, but whatever, Thanks Henny for
being here, and thank you for being here. Please come
back again next time and write me at DBA WJK
at gmail dot com if you have a complaint or
a compliment and go spend time with a friend in person.
It's so great. I love sitting here. You should do
(48:21):
it yourself. See you next time.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Don't be alone with jj cog
Strawut Media. Yo, what can you embarrass? I'm not to
be on Don't Be Alone with Jake Cogan. He hates
being alone. I know this for a fact. We're gonna
make sure we're not alone together. We're gonna be alone together.
That does not come out right right. We're gonna do
with some things together alone. Anyway, watch it today.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Don't Be Alone with jj Cogan.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hi, welcome to Don't Be Alone with Jake Cogan. I'm
your lovable host, Jake Cogan, and I'm really thrilled that
you're here. I'm getting so much positive feedback about the show,
and the shows have been great and they're getting greater,
and I'm really happy that you're joining me and my guests.
Whenever you do, sometimes it's when you're exercising. Sometimes it's
(00:49):
on your commute. Sometimes it's as you're falling asleep. Apparently
I've heard that. So whatever I can do to make
your life better fantastic. I really enjoy it. And thanks,
And if you can, please remember to subscribe to this thing.
It's very easy. Go to YouTube press subscribe. It costs
you nothing. And if you can recommend it to a friend,
even better and better yet, communicate with me at dbawjk
(01:12):
at gmail dot com. That's dbaw jk at gmail dot com.
That's my email address. You send your compliments, your criticisms.
I'm open to all of it. And send your questions
to my guests. Life questions, big life questions. I know
you don't know the guests. That's okay. Today we have
an amazing show for you as usual per USU. My
friend Kenya Barris, who is become a showed as a stalwarth.
(01:37):
He's been this amazing giant and shows. When I knew him,
he was just a guy in a writer's room, but
he created Blackish and all the spin offs of that
like Grownish and Youngish and Bluish and whatever else. All
the Ish shows are Kenya's. He's also done started in
his own show, which is a black af He's been
(02:00):
writing and directing movies and doing a million things podcasts
and uh, it's going to be interesting to track his
journey from some just regular comedy writer to sort of
mogul and maybe he says some maybe he has some
hints for me on my I'm not yet a mogul.
I've been doing it longer than he has and I'm
(02:20):
not yet a mogul, but ken you will tell us
the secret. We will be right back with Kenya Barris
right after this.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Don't be alone with jo.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
I'm very happy to see you and very grateful that
you came.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I'm super happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
That was really nice. And so the fact that you're
an hour late means nothing. And I don't blame that
on your people. I blame that completely on you. I mean,
the audience doesn't know this, but but but that we
met many years ago. I don't know if it's twenty
years ago, probably okay, twenty years ago, and you were
(03:04):
the writer, a funny writer on a little sitcom, and
back then you were just you were very open to
what was going on, but you were very interested. I
mean if even then you had an eye on big things,
like you talked about like you had Collabo as it
was a company that you started then, and you were
(03:25):
doing creating shows, you know, the model shows. You had
a lot of things going on always.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, so it was quiet in the room. I was
trying to be such a fun that was such always Fogman,
Dan Fogerman, who's our friend of ours, who's become the
head of the town. He wasn't even that was his
first show. He was like parking cars or something before that, right,
and or doing something. I wasn't parking cars, but like,
(03:53):
it was such a funny group of people. You know
what I'm saying. All those people have going on, and
not all but a lot of them, and I see them,
you know, and Fogum has kept quite a few of
them around. But it was I got to learn a lot. Yeah,
you know what I'm saying being on this show.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, let's talk about that. What's the what are what
are the best things you learned on the show? Whether
the worst things you learned?
Speaker 1 (04:15):
So I have been a writer's assistant before you affectionately
named our writer ressistant because you didn't want to learn
their names Tippity and Tappity. Okay, can we switch out
Tappity and get Tippity in here?
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Because you know, how can we dehumanize people? What's the
best way to dehumanize it? Tippandy tell Tappity. I don't know,
but I felt like I learned.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
I have been a writing since so I kind of
understood that there was there is a great way in
how some people they want to get in writing there's
no better way than being a writer assistant or SCOPT coordinator.
I know all the programs and all that ship, but
it really comes down to like being in the room,
being in the game, you know what I'm saying. Even
it's like being a practice player. Yeah, you know I'm
(05:01):
saying something. You're a practice player and you can just
go crazy.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Well, the real thing about her being a writer is
you're just you have to sit there and ship, right,
Like you have to sit and write and writers assistants
have to write. Like it's not when you're a writer,
you don't have to really concern yourself if it's good
or if it's bad. It's just you just write it down.
And you're a writer, you also have to try to
(05:24):
not concern yourself too much whether it's good or it's bad.
You just have to write it. And so it's really
good practice for that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It really is. And it was crazy when you'd sit
there and the writers just sit Now I understood stood
because I do it. But like we'd have hilarious like
room rattering laughter and they'd get to in it and
we're like, does someone have to die for you to
write that down? Does someone have to literally start bleeding.
(05:50):
Sure before you realize that was probably something we should.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Want to make that mistake and write the wrong thing down.
That's the thing that they're most afraid of.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
But they're getting a show because sometimes you're getting some
of the brightest, those most charismatic, funny people in the
room putting on a stand up set for you.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
It can be it also can be brutal. Used to
be not anymore because they fire people now for that
kind of stuff. But it used to be also rough.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Very rough, very rough. I still like a rough room.
I still like to get my friends who I cannot
room because my big thing is like, as long as
it's not malicious.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, Well, that's the thing that's missing now. People didn't understand,
like tippitty and tappity. If I said that to people,
I probably think I hope they understood my intent was
not truly to dehumanize them, but it was trying to
be fun. They liked it because they were trying to
be funny. How funny is it to dehumanize people. It's
a joke. It was a joke on a joke. In
other words, it's the intention. If you assume somebody says
(06:48):
something with good intention, you can hear a lot. If
you assume that it's just what they said, then you
can't hear anything.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I agree, it's hazing and I think that my favorite comedians,
some of them I've had to have conversations with recently,
but like, for the most part, the brilliance was brilliant.
And then sometimes I don't know if it's success or
if it's personal names, it crosses over into malice. I'm like,
let's cross back. I'm like, you're the best, You're the
(07:15):
best in the world. Like, let's just cross a little
bit back, you know what I'm saying. And just I
think you need people. They need they need people around
them that it's gonna say that.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
And so you feel you feel like you can bring
people back from the dark side if I'm.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Close enough to them what I'm saying, or if they'll
listen to me, because oftentimes they get sick offens and
people who are on the on the payroll and it's like,
let them go, let them go, And I'm like, but
you're gonna let him go off the cliff You're saying, like,
bring it back. You don't need to be malice malicious,
you know, I'm saying you can be just as funny
as you were. Just edge it back a little bit.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You know, people who work with you are feel confident
to say speak yours truth to power.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
I hope. So I've been working with basically the same group,
and we get writers rooms of different people, but general
I usually try to keep at least two or three
of it's probably six or seven dudes. At least try
to keep two or three, if not all of them
together because I think they they're the ones. So like,
the fuck are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Dude?
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Like I'm saying, like when you're too off off ar
or they'll be like you look sleepy, right, what was
what happened this weekend?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Like?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Are what's up with you? In bowl? Like what's happening?
They'll ask you.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's a long conversation.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Acould the real questions I'm saying, which I think you
really need to be asked or to keep you in line.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
That's good. I feel that way too. The writer's room
used to be that place where you can talk about
your life, talk about the things you had to in
order to get through, you know, get interesting ideas about
what's going on. Now. When I go from place to place,
I have to feel it out. And for the most part,
it's just like what would the character say and what
would they do?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And I know that's the part of our business that
like fil Rosenthal used to have, those guys stayed forever. Right,
my time was over. Everybody was an eepy you know
what I'm saying. People even got pieces, you know what
I'm saying. But like it was Monday morning and I
was like, Phil, this is true. I was like, it
was Monday morning. Wasn't about story. It was I wish
you as to this weekend. Yeah, because that's the best
(09:13):
way to get into the story. Everybody just told their
stories that from that weekend.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
And we should be doing Phil Rosendal's podcast because he's
got a good one. So like we should here and
go see what Phil is having his his his great podcast.
So okay, So Kenya, let me ask you something. You
and I both kind of grew up in la You
grew up in like Inglewood Ish and.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Brought in Proquema, grew up at Ingleborough.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
All right, it feels to me when I met you,
it feels to me that you always were destined to
be a show business guy. Now I don't know why,
I feel that way because history doesn't necessarily say everyone
every You know where you're from, and the people that
you grew up with aren't all in chill business. So
so what is it about you? Do you think that
(10:02):
attracted to this thought you could do it? You know,
you had a certain amount of confidence to do it,
but you're not. You're not like overly you have confidence,
but you also have a little bit of humble this
to you at the same time, which of course makes
you endearing, but but you really do like you have
both of those things going on at the same time.
(10:24):
That's a rare combination. What do you think pushed you here?
And you know you're rocketed you to success.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I wanted to be a doctor. My kid's mom's a doctor.
Organic chemistry happened and I was like, this isn't for me.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Same thing to me. I considered being a doctor and
I went to organic and organic chemistry and failed immediately
and said, okay, I.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Had never felt anything. Yeah in my life. In class school,
I was getting like nines Like I was like, this
is it is literally Greek to me. I don't know
what's going on, So I couldn't do that. And then
I liked writing. I'm like, I don't doing jokes, wrote
a play, got produced while I was in school, started
going to like stand up clubs Earthquake Cat That's great
(11:07):
club in Atlanta. Would see certain comics.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Were you doing stand up while you're in college?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I was trying to open mics, trying trying to do
open mics, but realized I could hear other comics voices
throughout some jokes and some comics they used my jokes.
Maybe give me twenty, maybe give me nothing. You know
what I'm saying. But realized I could hear other people's voices.
Kind of realized that was like maybe something to do
(11:35):
my At the time, my wife's uncle was this guy,
Ralph Farquhar. He had created Moesha and a bunch of stuff.
This lady Felicia Henderson how to show. He interested me
in her, got him as a PA. Steve Stark was
the head of the Paramom Writer's program. He helped me
get into that. Did did you know just got into
(11:56):
the program thing or whatever? Really realized that in TV
in particular, especially at that time, TV writers were like, God,
you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah, No, it was a cool, cool tide to the TV.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Right it was, and like seeing those guys like come
in and get lunches, which I completely fucked up every day.
But like you know, sneaking in and hearing you know,
sometimes you get the writer system will let you sub
in for a second. We're just hearing the jokes, hearing
the jokes come from the room, seeing them work on
the floor. Tape nights, you know what I'm saying, where
you really got to see the stars shine. You know
what I'm saying, You were great tape night. But like
(12:28):
but just seeing that you kind of get addicted to it.
Like I went to Black College, went to the owner
to Clark, but at the same mentors as doctor Ackerberg
a Spike Lee. I don't want to be a director.
Realize directing you need money to get people together and
this and that. With writing, you just need a laptop.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Yeah, you could be a one man show with the writer.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
You really could. And then seeing as any anybody ever,
PA is always tell them like read everything that comes
across your desk. And one day that's the budget came
across my desk and I looked up and I was like,
this dude makes what and I was like, this dude
snoops in his office every day, you know what I'm saying.
And I was like, I remember doing the thought was
like it would take me three years to make you know,
(13:14):
But I realized that that was what, you know, something
that was you could have a lot of control of.
I wasn't into the movie thing because I was at
the TV and we actually had particularly during that time,
we got to create, execute, edit, and prove and then
put out our things within a certain amount of time.
And the timiness of and the things we could talk
(13:36):
about really attracted me.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Also, you have this other skill that you still have
to this day, and it is you're very good with people.
You have people skills. You're very kind to me unnecessarily.
So I thank you for that. But that's but it's
your you know, it's it's it's lovely that you're you
credit me with things that I don't deserve, which I've
(13:58):
always appreciate me. But but everybody loved you. I mean,
it's like it's not a person from Norman Lear to
Eddie Murphy Dan like, you get along with people in
a way that a lot of people don't. Where does
that come from?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So I think I grew up in a burning house. Yeah, crazy,
crazy craziness, abuse and toxicity and all the kind of
stuff that goes around wrong with that. But I think
when you grew up in a burning house, people say like,
you're good at putting it on fires. I'm like, yeah,
because I grew up in a It's not a scale
skill you want to necessarily have, which you get it,
but I definitely feel like it gives you what I
(14:34):
think is missing and from so many people empathy, you
know what I'm saying. And sympathy is different than empathy.
Empathy as you felt it. Sympathies you can understand how
that might feel, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Well, who tests I'm sure there have been you've been
in situations where you're directing a movie or you're directing
something and a star or a crew member is testing
your empathy many.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Many, many times. I think that conversations actually really help
a lot when you're actually able to sort of say like,
maybe it's a after work hall, Maybe it's like you
want to have a drink. Maybe it's like a knock
on the trailer. The trailer knocks don't necessarily work as
much because They're still in their in their in their zone,
(15:18):
whatever that is. But like some moments like bro, like
it's this is not going well, don't be alone with so.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
But how do you take that moment where somebody who
is acting like a big baby or rationally or whatever.
They're in a moment and you're trying to be empathetic
to whatever that moment is, but you want to get
your day done. Part of me is like I'm looking
at the watching I gotta get the day done. I
got to find a way to get this person out
of the trailer. I'm not as empathetic in that moment
(16:05):
because I'm more concerned with the two hundred other people
that have to work. Can you turn that off and
really get into their head or what?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I've realized that somebody told Julie's Ruffis told me something
and I was like, and it's crazy because they both
for on Sign For Jason Alexander had a similar thing.
Jason Alexander had a one of the best moments in
my life. Right it's working on show with him and
he came to the writer's room. We were about to
have a table reading. He goes, guys, We're like, oh,
it's Jason. He's like, the script, this isn't it And
(16:36):
we're like oh, And he was like, we're five minutes
from the table reading shit, and he's like, we're gonna
have to work on this. And he would go to
the table read and as you would imagine he's an actor,
he didn't like it. He's gonna tak it right. He
doesn't just not tank it right, he makes hels Old
out of it. I mean, it's one of our best
(16:59):
table reading is people. Executives are crying, writers are laughing,
you know what I'm saying, we're high fiving. We go
back to the room, We're like, what a what a
limits to lemonade moment? Right? And he comes in he's like, guys,
we still got to work on this right, And we
were like, absolutely, sir, because the idea that actors are magic,
(17:20):
and instead of being petulant and poudy, he took and
used his magic and lifted what was shit. He tryed,
he shines shit, you know what I'm saying, and he
did it in a way that only he could do it.
And so we were more than happy to work on
that script and get it to exactly what he wanted
to get to Julia's rife has told me we were
doing something and it was you know, it's hard or whatever,
(17:42):
and she was like, this guy's been doing this is
a guy, this has been happening for a long time.
You're not going to be the person to stop it.
What you can do is stop it for now. You
know what I'm saying. You can And the way that
you can do that is if you can't past you
haven't quite been in this person's shoes, you can sympathize
(18:03):
with maybe what's happening at the moment. And it made
me really realize, like at the moment when you can
talk to people, and I think some people actually need
to be said this to, Like, dude, people are like
turning on you out there. You know what I'm saying,
These people want to come to work every day for you,
but they're kind of starting to turn on you. And
I don't want to turn over you because you know,
and and like people actually respond to that because sometimes
(18:26):
they don't have a lot of people around.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I don't feel threatened by that, and I would feel
threatened a little bit, like people, you're you're the people
around you are turning on you.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Threatened, You're you're everyone's in service of the project, right.
And I think if you can remember that everyone should
be in services that they should, and if you can
remember that, you can say, Okay, this isn't going to change.
Let's pivot, you know what I'm saying. I think that's
where the TV right. I think TV writers actually make,
particularly multigamer TV rights, who can we make really good
producers and really good directors because you learn how to
(18:55):
improvise and how to pivot in the moment, and so
you could realize that this, this moment is not going
to work. Right, How do I sort of jump ahead
and realize what I'm going to do in editing? How
can I get around this? You know what I'm saying?
How can I do that? Now? Let's not keep any
want to hear any longer. It's gonna make this any worse.
Let's get out of this. I can fix this in editing.
(19:16):
I can cut this. I can figure this out another day.
I can pick it up if I have to. I
can you know, swing around and get I think those
types of moments, when you have to get to it,
that helps.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I guess I was asking also a slightly deeper question,
which is we're both. If you grow up the way
you're saying, you grow up, and I only doubt you,
like twenty percent, if you grow up, then you're scarred.
You have this this stuff that's going on, and then
you know your filter of life and world and especially
family comes through that mess. And then you can't help
(19:48):
but let a little bit of that influence one way
or another. So like you have to either you're raising
your family or having your family in reaction to what
you had, right, you're trying a good fight against that,
or or you're embracing it. Maybe too much of it
flows in, but you're constantly measuring yourself up against what
you went through.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
I think for me, like it's it's it's sobster like
I have brother who passed leukemia, or brother's schizophrenia. Brother
stabbed on you know, an alley on Thanksgiving. Mom broken
jawwat she was pregnant with me. Abusive dad. Dad went
to jail with me in the house for selling drugs.
(20:30):
Mom shot the stuff that feels like what I'm sorry
story exactly, But like I realized that I still got
I still had a really loving my dad loved me,
He loved me the best he could my mom really
loved me.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
That's exactly the best they could, the best they could.
That means a lot. So while you're hurting and saying
I wish this and I wish that the adult part
of us in and goes look at where this person
came from. Yes, look at what how they grew up
and the best they could means a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That the tragedy and the and the toxicity that your
parents had they didn't mean to, but they passed down
to you, and you probably and somewhere are passing on
your are.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
I mean, that's my big fear. That's exactly what the
big fear. That's exactly what's happening. I am definitely passing
on other things.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
But give them the right to talk to you about it.
That was the biggest thing, is like me being able
to forgive myself for what I did, but mostly I
forget my mom and my dad and realized that they
did the best they could, and then I'm doing the
best could. And the difference and the change and the
cycle that you can break is you can allow your
kid to talk to you about what their experience.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
What's your kid?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
What are your kids biggest criticisms of you I'm too
big of a personality.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I get that same thing.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
I'm too big of a personality, and I think, like,
you know, I think, like, why let you guys do
what you want. You guys curse at me, and I'm like,
that's great, and they love that, you know what I'm saying,
And they can be honest with me about certain things.
But sometimes everything's a joke, right, you know what I'm saying.
Sometimes everything's a joke, and I'm like, it's it's funny
to everyone else around, but that person feels it really heavily,
(22:15):
and so I have sort of like I'm trying to
meet her, you know what I'm saying, because that big
personality is my defense mechanism of how I dealt with
the things that were happening to me one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
I'm my wife Brown, as you know, in love. She
has told me on many occasions recently, can't you just
say yes, we're here or just hear me without making
a joke? Does everything have to be fodder for a joke? Yes?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
My daughter when she told me she was gonna go,
when she told me that her fiance now that she
was going to visit her, she was like well, you know,
we're not just friends. And I guess I know now,
and she's like, do you care? And I go, I mean,
do you care? And she's like, I don't know. I
was like, I'm more upset than she's white that she's
then she's not a guy, right, And she laughed. And
(23:03):
I think in that moment it was great. But when
I repeat that moment or I say it around other people,
it's like that, come on, you're making this, it's your thing.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Tell me about this podcast you were doing with the
you know, the greatest podcast of all time.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
We're doing doing second season. I'm a huge fan of Malcolm.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
Malcolm Gladwell who did Revisionist History, which is probably the
greatest podcast in the history of and and.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
His books which changed my life. You know what I'm
saying from think you know, you know, uh tip point
to outliers. All these things with the dogs are But
I learn there's some moments where you just sit back
and just learn. And I sit back and just watch
him and just learn. But it's kind of like double Dutch.
We kind of like how did you get Like like
(23:52):
like I met in the room, I met him at
a restaurant. It's kind of approached him at a restaurant
and like, I never do this, you know I'm saying,
but he could not be sweet. We exchanged information and
kept in touch. He was beyond support to me. I
did this show on Netflix, saw black as far he
was being. He sent me a personal note and then
didn't text me right after I got like some bad
(24:13):
reviews or whatever. And people started really liking the show,
and he was one of the first people who vocally
spoke about it, and we became.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
I wrote you a note when you did this show.
I didn't know. I didn't get an invitation to a
podcast with you doing I say, you're good. I said,
the show's good. I said, who knew you could act?
I did a whole thing.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No one knew I could act. No, I still doesn't act.
But he got He made me feel it was it
was he got what I was trying to do right,
which was satire, which white people don't really get a
lot of a chance to do. You know what I'm saying,
We don't get to do satire a lot. And that
was one of the biggest things that I was, like,
you got it. That was the thing that was really
(24:52):
the mold. I was trying to break was like to
do satire.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
It felt like, in a very good way, a very
interesting perspective that only you could bring to the It's
the car Reiner of it all. Carl Reiner said, do
a show that only you could do, and he did
it with Blackish, but he also did it with Black af.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Larry David made me, or not made me convince me
to actually be in it. And I'm saying Michelle Deshaun
So I worked with, worked with Larry, did forever. Got Larry,
who I'm just like a super fan of, got Larry
on the phone with me and we had a great
actor cast. Rashida was like, I really Tria Jones was
like I really want you to do it and I
was like what and she was like, it just takes you.
(25:33):
And I was like and then I got Larry and
phone and Hill was like, how do I get prepared
for this? He was like just to you and he
was like, use the auditions and he said, well, you
know audition people use those as your rehearsals. And I
was like, oh, that's interesting. And he was like, improv
with these people and the rehearsals and I was like,
and that became the technique. It's like when we got
probably rehearsals, if I could play with him, then I
(25:56):
could act with him. And because I directed it and
one of the greatest things out in the office kind
of I stole from the office and probably other things
that it that whole sort of like mocumentary, like long wins,
like people don't know what you're talking, but actually getting
you Like it allows you not have to do to
do turnarounds, right, you know what I'm saying, Because turnarounds
(26:17):
where you really have to be an actor. Yeah, when
you have to do like to.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Do it again, do it again, have the soda in
the same hand, all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
So not having to do turnarounds really helped me. I'm saying.
Having to we shot it into's and this and that
and that really made it so it can feel more
natural and it made me a better writer. Like you
do stand up whenever you actually have to perform. It
actually helps your writing for sure in a different way.
And I tell every writer if you can get a chance,
(26:46):
I don't care if it's going to take a class
at UCV.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Or definitely take an acting class. It helps because it's
we think, well, we writers most writers who don't act think,
why don't they say it the way I've wrote? Why
don't they say it the way that's in my head?
And they don't realize that's not how that works.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
That's exactly right. And that person you might have wrote
on him across you might have wrote it in a
way that makes a person like uncomfortable in the response.
And so the idea of like trying to now write
and be like a person has to talk to another
person and I said do something while they're doing that,
you write it differently.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
You're like, you open up. It improves your ability to write.
Blocking within the who's the greatest that you've worked with
the greatest.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
The greatest provisational person I worked with his show on him,
he is like nothing else I've ever seen, you know
what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Yeah, I was gonna say he's probably the grumpiest too.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
But he has his moments. But because he's the director
and a writer, you know what I'm saying, And we
actually are friends. The times that we actually had moments,
I called him and he'd be like, yeah, I did
do that, And I'm like, what you're admitting this same
saying And he was like yeah, I do it, and
he actually was when he was really he actually a
great documentary.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Therapy was a big in this documentary. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Everyone should see it. He also had a kid now
and he's like one of my closer friends. We've we've
had hit hit our bumps when he did our movie,
but like he's one of my closer friends, Like you
know in this because like I've seen and we experienced it.
Ye was talking Hi about my kids and he came
back to me one ding he was like, you know,
you told me what kids did for you. He was like,
(28:27):
I didn't believe you. He was like, and I've seen
the change, and he's seen the change of me. He's
helped me. He helped me in so many ways because
he supported me in ways that he didn't have to.
And sometime he got mad at me in ways he
didn't have to. But like and sometimes I would say
getting I did a movie with him and Eddie Murphy
and people would get mad Eddie and Eddie might be
(28:48):
a little later this and that, but when you've seen it,
when when you when you're looking at that thing and
you're like, oh, that's a movie star.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
Oh for sure, Well I mean, Jonah, Yes, and Eddie.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Oh my god, Eddie's surgical. People don't realize that Eddie,
in terms of what you put on that page. It's
almost Ron burgundyish, you know what I'm saying. Like, he's
gonna read, he's gonna remember his lines, so if the
lines work, he is surgical. He told me something. He
was like, when you get me on a movie for
good gets you in a movie and he gets me
(29:19):
for seven weeks. He was like, look, if you can't
make something out of this, that's on you. He's like,
because I'm gonna give you my same twenty eight, eight
and eight, I'm gonna put up my points. I'm saying,
you can't get something out of that, you can't win.
And he was surgical and him and Jonah and Jonah
bouncing after him. It was some of the stuff that
(29:39):
never made the movie, but was. I was like, oh
my god, I'm so blessed to be having these dudes together.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
It was really fun. And you people, it was so
fun to see that see them together. I worked briefly
with Eddie on the Night Professor and Shrek.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Were you there?
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Well, yeah, But I was really sort of a Mike
Myers camp for that. But yeah, but it's like nobody.
He's sitting there like not I guess the movie star,
but just like you know this nightty professor, he's he's
burying the weight of this movie on his shoulders. And
these writers come in and he's looking me at my
(30:15):
partner Wally, and looking at us, looking up and down
like so you guys work on the Simpsons, Like he
analyzed us within thirty seconds said okay, and then we're
ready to hear stuff from us and knew what to
take and what not to take like he was. He
knew it. He has it within him to do whatever
the fuck he wants. Yes, And that's it's amazing to me.
(30:38):
Did you see him on the fiftieth the S and
L fiftieth thing? It was phenomenal, unbelievable And that was
no rehearsal Right, that just becomes Tracy Morgan. Yeah, he
just becomes Tracy Morgan. Unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And he the thing about Eddie, I went Eddie a
lot of times, especially COVID or write or post COVID.
I'm aphobe, right, but we we You always go to
the house, beautiful home, and you go sit there and
in twenty minutes you're having a conversation and he'll he'll
do j Cogan yeah, and you're like, ohd on are
(31:13):
you doing me? And he doesn't consider himself an impression us.
I'm saying, it's just he has always say Will Smith
one of the biggest actors in the world, right, but
he outworks everybody. Tom Cruise outworks everybody. Eddie Murphy could
have been born in a box in Calcutta.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Right, and he was going to be a star.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I think the reason I'm not as big as Tom
Cruise is I don't outwork everybody. That's the thing, that's
the thing that holds you back. I wish.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Don't be alone with Jja Cogan.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
All right, So here's here's everybody who comes on. Don't
be alone with Jay Cogan. Uh is here to solve
my problem, okay. And one of the problems that I
thought you'd be good to solve is because you've been
working with Malcolm Gladwell and like and for some reason,
and this is kind of funny to me because I've
known you forever, but people have said, oh, well, you know,
(32:21):
Kenya Barris has an eye on what's happening in the future,
and it's like, you know, he's he's not a prognosticator
of society, but an observer of society, a grand observer
of society. So the pisser in the writer's room is
the grand observer society. So okay, So from your perspective,
what the fuck is going on with a show business
(32:43):
and be the world? And what what should we be
looking to to looking out for in terms of what
are you looking out for in terms of the world
for your kids?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
What's what?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
What do we what should we worry about most? And
what's what's coming that's good.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I think that we're about to have like the greatest
generation of activists ever ever made, honestly, like more than
more than Vietnam War. I think we're what is happening
is the greatest generation of social activists right now being formed.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
That would be amazing considering it seems like the society
is so apathetic, like we're just letting everything steamroll over us.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I think that that is true. But the but the
ones who aren't that small narrow group of young people
who aren't apathetic, who aren't just letting social media and
TikTok and materialism draw them, they are stronger. They're more
resilient than any anybody before them. And I think that
I've seen I've seen it the way that they talk
(33:45):
with When you get a group of these kids together,
I'm like, oh.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
This can you say a large group of protesters? Are
you're talking about your kids?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I remember my kids like but like some of some
of my kids, all of them, but I'm talking about
their friends. Are of the things that they actually want
to stand up for. I feel like my daughter was
having a conversation with me about you know, the trans conversation, right,
and she was like, she was like, this is like
like you know, the magic prestige trick. She was like,
(34:12):
they're doing this so that they can go in your
pocket here. She was like, sure, this is not a
conversation just percentage wise that requires the amount of conversation
has But it's it's it's it's required. It causes a
lot of distraction, right, It's a it's a hot.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Button issue that really affects almost no.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
One, right. And it's not that it's not that it's
not important, but it's not as important as what they're
taking out this pocket. I'm saying, they're causing this huge
disruption I'm saying gay marriage was this huge disruption that
was caused you know what I'm saying, and almost decided
an election. You're causing a suite disruption. She was like
paying attention to what the handgoing in your pocket, and
(34:53):
we can education is being destroyed. Everything is you know, uh, immigration,
which this country was bounded.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
On, economic disparity is being is being you know, it's
it's horrifying gap.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
We're insane where you have ten people but we're cool.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Now, we're cool.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
That's right. I know some of those times exactly. No,
but when you have ten people who control ninety eight
percent of the wealth of the world, it's nuts, you
know what I'm saying with that, Like, that's not I
don't think that's a crazy number. I think that's actually
a true number. Like you have like ten people who
control or ten people along with companies who control ninety
eight percent.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
That is insane, and that is nothing good can come
from that. That's the thing.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Everyone has health care and everyone gets to eat. You
don't need to change society to make that happen. No society.
That could happen today very easily. Yeah, I mean there's
really things like childcare and elderly care. These are things
that could happen with the richest country in the world.
You have people just decided we shouldn't make that happen,
and maybe we tax a little bit more of the
people who are the most wealthy in the world. That
(36:02):
mean specific, but it's like it's really I mean, that's
the thing. It's like, you don't have to trade in
everything to get some of these things to happen. Oh,
I want to ask you something else. This is what
I want to ask which I've never asked you before.
You have this big deal after you're coming off of
Black and you had this big deal at Netflix, and
(36:23):
at some point you traded it in. What went into
that decision to trade in? Because if they Netflix gave
me a gazillion dollar deal, it would take a lot
for me to say, you know what, I'm out of here.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
I got the deal I traded in for was still
pretty large.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
But I no, no, But I mean when Netflix that
the hottest place is sick.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
I did it because at the time I wanted to
have some ownership stake, and that was the big part.
Was that the ownership take of the city, which no
one really had done before saying it. I learned a lot.
You learned to learn more from mistakes than your things.
I don't know if it was mistaken, but like also
went to a company that at the time, just as
(37:07):
things happened, was in flux. You know. Now we see
the sky Dance, you know, right, that was starting kind
of right with my I went there during pandemic, so
there was nothing I could do during pandemic, so I
was hopeful. Then right shortly after pandemic, right to strike happened,
so that put the thing on it. Then right after
that the company sold or it has been in the
(37:28):
process of selling. So I don't know if it was.
You know, just timing wasn't great. I've been really lucky,
you know what I'm saying. Recently we kind of geared
back up. We have a lot of things, you know,
going movies kept me, you know what I'm saying into things.
That's why people are like, why do you do so much?
I hear so many people that are like, he's not
writing this, He's not right now, and I'm like, no,
(37:50):
I'm writing. I was like, but I just constantly write,
I absolutely positively right in a with a form of
people I'm saying as a lot of people do, and
I think it's the best way a lot of things.
I will write myself and then we get to the
forum and we break it down. I think some of
(38:10):
my favorite writers have done that. I want, you know, saying,
I think we all know them.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
But I feel like I write, and I also need
a group of people to tell me what's good. I
always and I'm happy to help people to say.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
I always used to say when I started this, I
was like I wanted to be the black jot oup
of town, right because I just loved what he was
doing and how he kind of took something that wasn't
their nerd cheek and all that and like made it
a thing. He has a group of people, he writes,
but he has a group of people that he trusts
that gets together and that group has grown and grown
and grown. And I use that format, you know thing.
(38:42):
I think that the ambition part of it is like
seeing what podcasts were and then all of a sudden
saying like, well, how can I do it not and
not feel like I'm just being derivative and do something different.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
This is where you and I disagree. I want to
be derivative. I'm fine with it. I'm fine with it
as long as people subscribe. It needs to subscribe to
my show, But I don't care if it's Joaman.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
I wanted to I want to do something that was that,
and I also wanted to do movies. Was really interesting
to me. Because comedy has to come back. Yeah, that
is one of the things.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
I really how it's gone away.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
It kept the lights on forever and I'm definitely gonna
has to come back. And I think it needs to
come back to theaters, not just on streaming. You know
what I'm saying, because Netflix sit great with nobody wants
this or running Point or this this, but in general,
it is not the same as a big modern family
show or a big Simpsons or a big you know,
(39:36):
Meet the Parents or Taladega Nights or Anchor Man. I
think that it needs to come back in a really, really,
really big way.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
I wonder if you know, with the attention span or what,
whether kids who play video games or watching YouTube, if
that's changed the taste or the desire or the patience
for people to watch stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I don't, I honestly don't. So because you know, kids
like Drew Ski and Kay Sinnett and you know, and
I show you people there's these there's these streamers who
are getting massive amounts of money and getting massive viewership,
right and they just sit up and make jokes all
day with their friends. I think it's it's finding how
(40:19):
do you sort of like help them structure that into
what is a show?
Speaker 3 (40:24):
All right, now it's time for our listener mail.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Now it's time for listener man.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Dear Jay and guest, regarding the writer's room, what part
of the job do you think it's harder than the
public would expect and what part is easier than we
might expect? From Ken? Thank you for the question. Ken,
I sent that in that's my alter you kid. You
sent that. It's a terrible name for you.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
My answers are that and Manja. Two things. There's two.
There's super Echol and I think Sean is one example. Shanda.
I've seen it happen. A story will be not working
and she can come in and almost like a beautiful
mind esque way, this group of brilliant you know what
I'm saying, ivy league educated, blah blah, and she can
(41:14):
move and be like this show here is here, and
you're like, oh, shit, you're Shanda Rhymes R right. It's
anyone who's ever worked for I dare you to tell
me I'm wrong. I'm saying, like, well, she can find
out where things can go. I'm saying she's not in
the room. But that's a special skill. But the other
thing that I think you have, there's a guy named
Pete Holmes who's a comedian. He loved Pete, he had
(41:37):
it and he doesn't like being in a rising room.
But he's one of something something really really special. I've
worked for this girl. I worked a Laura Guten. I
think has certain people. I have seen Lindsay Shockley Jonathan grow.
But there is something to a person who can just
(42:02):
off the cuff. This is why I always tell people
the comedians get so mad at me. I'm like, we
can have We should put this on Netflix. This is
the show we should do comedy writers versus stand ups.
I will fucking every day, seven days of the week,
and twice on Sunday, take a comedy ride over a
stand up. You know what I'm saying, because because we
(42:22):
every day have to come in with new material and
throw out one hundred jokes to fit into a script.
You know, what I'm saying, you're throwing out ten to
fifteen twin jokes per thing, and you're doing it at
rapid pace, and some of those jokes are the funning
jokes we've ever fucking heard, you know I'm saying. And
the idea of getting those people who are able to
(42:44):
do that. You're a joke gun, Pete Holmes a joke.
There are certain people who are just like, they can
fire jokes and they don't get tired. They get tired,
but they still will like it. I'm saying, reload and
the idea of being a those people and like actually
understanding that that is a God given gift. That is
(43:06):
something that people. I don't think people understand that those
comedy writers are something special.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
The thing about jokes, especially in a sitcom, is it's
not just jokes. It's character.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
It's character.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
It's character, situation in that moment, it's character. Yes, so
you're putting your head in that character. You're becoming that character.
Just like when you were listening to your stand up
comedy voice and you heard that, you're sitting in that
room and becoming a character. And so it's not even
about jokes. It's about what's the situation in that character, for.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
That situation, for that moment that goes along with what's
going on. But that's why I think comedy writering has
actually taken a hit, because you get people in a
room who don't have that right and you start being like, oh,
like you know what I'm saying, You start feeling it,
you know what I'm saying, Like those guys when you
started looking at shows and you're in a can you
(43:56):
imagine being in a room with like John Mulaney, you
know what I'm saying, and just like and some of
those guys and like who like literally the things that
they think of.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
But that goes to the other part of the question
regarding the writer's room. What's the worst part of the
job that people don't know? So now you're at a
party with some of them for industry, you're John Mulaney
and all these people, and you're at a party with
them for six months. Okay, it's not funny after a while.
It's really kind of annoying after a while, yes, And
like you're sitting in the same room and hearing the
same bits and the same thing, and it's like that's
(44:26):
the part that people don't realize that we get used
to each other. Yes, we get annoyed with each other,
and it gets tiring. Yes it does, and it gets
That's what the atrophy starts to kick in.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
You know what I'm saying. When you're like, okay, you
know what I'm saying, he's gonna say this type of thing.
Or I will even say the thing that I will
tell you a lot of young writers is it is
it can become. You can become sort of a weeping
willow if you let yourself when you're in the room
with these big personal audies who have that god given
(44:57):
skill and you don't. You may not have that, have that,
but you have something else. You gotta find your thing
right and not let that person overshadow you to the
point where it becomes like you take your swings. You
gotta take your swing.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Yes, that's just it, he said, Like, and they're not
all going to hit and nobody does. You gotta take
your swings. Yes, all right, So good answer, Well done.
Now we're onto the moment of joy.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
A moment of joy.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
What gives me joy? I think this is the lamest thing.
But I'm gonna be honest. I think I'll say two
things as one of them is the thing. Ever, I
think putting together a great outfit. All right, I'm just
gonna be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
By the way, that is absolutely true of you. You're
a guy who has put together outfits. You always have.
I've always been impressed by it. It's like the shoes matched,
the pants match, the jets, like, what the hell? And
for every team you had a jacket for every team
that you loved, your head pint it all. God went to.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Get any other great off against your way.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
No, it is that just because you're a fashion you
have a fashion sense, or is that just there was.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
This moment in the Matrix and this is like a
really long route to go. Morpheus tells Neil when he
brings him too that white room, and Neil's just taking
the pill and he's like, why do we dress like this?
Or a matrix? He was like this, that's your residual
self image. And I was like, and I was like,
oh shit, Like they Wolsey said something really interesting and
(46:34):
I was like, that's what your clothes are, you know
what I'm saying. And it doesn't matter if it's you
with your hats, you know what I'm saying. Or this
with that or you know what it used to be
the diet Cox it was like it was like but like,
there's things that tell the world this is who I am,
you know what I'm saying. And being able to do
that with clothes so that people don't people know you
(46:58):
before they know you, or have a sense of who
you are before they have a sense of who you are.
And when you're able to do that and you're like,
I like the way this looks and it kind of
says who I want the world to see me as
and it's not a false representation and it's a real
representation that gives me a sense of joy. And going
to going to a basketball game, those are two I
(47:19):
love going to I love going to see live sports.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Who's your team these days?
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Clippers? Then the Clipper is going to be the Clippers,
right even though four years first round out the playoffs,
I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick by all right.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
Well that's that's that's it. I mean, we're letting you go.
I love you, truly, I love you, truly love you.
I don't see enough of you. Sometimes You're hard to
get hold. Since become very big you're hard to get
a hold of.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
That's the thing we connected on. It is humanity. We
both have a desire to see the thing behind the
thing behind the thing, and that's what we both sort
of like kind of like found in ourselves, you know
what I'm saying too, And so humanity is finally men.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Glad, welcome, call me whatever. You could use a little
advertising support for this show, but whatever, Thanks Henny for
being here, and thank you for being here. Please come
back again next time and write me at DBA WJK
at gmail dot com if you have a complaint or
a compliment and go spend time with a friend in person.
It's so great. I love sitting here. You should do
(48:21):
it yourself. See you next time.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Don't be alone with jj cog
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