November 5, 2024 • 47 mins
Jonathan talks about growing up the son of a minister, not ruining other people’s shows, not doing stand-up comedy, not staying with Conan, and not being the Jonathan Groff, the Broadway superstar!
Bio:Jonathan Groff is a television writer, showrunner and executive producer, with over thirty years of experience. Recently, he was an Executive Producer alongside Fred Armisen on the HULU comedy THIS FOOL. He was with ABC's BLACK-ISH for all eight of its seasons, serving as Executive Producer/Showrunner for four seasons. Also at ABC, Jonathan was the EP / Showrunner on HAPPY ENDINGS for three seasons. From 2007-2009, Jonathan was a Consulting Producer on the CBS hit HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER. Preceding that, he executive produced and ran his own series ANDY BARKER P.I. for NBC, which he co-created with Conan O'Brien. He also spent five years as Head Writer on LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN. Jonathan co-wrote two animated holiday specials for Dreamworks/NBC: KUNG FU PANDA HOLIDAY SPECIAL, and HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON: HOMECOMING.
Bio:Jonathan Groff is a television writer, showrunner and executive producer, with over thirty years of experience. Recently, he was an Executive Producer alongside Fred Armisen on the HULU comedy THIS FOOL. He was with ABC's BLACK-ISH for all eight of its seasons, serving as Executive Producer/Showrunner for four seasons. Also at ABC, Jonathan was the EP / Showrunner on HAPPY ENDINGS for three seasons. From 2007-2009, Jonathan was a Consulting Producer on the CBS hit HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER. Preceding that, he executive produced and ran his own series ANDY BARKER P.I. for NBC, which he co-created with Conan O'Brien. He also spent five years as Head Writer on LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN. Jonathan co-wrote two animated holiday specials for Dreamworks/NBC: KUNG FU PANDA HOLIDAY SPECIAL, and HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON: HOMECOMING.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Jonathan Groff, and if you are not a
fan of the muscular four foot of a marine gaspropod
mollusc don't be abaloney with j Cogan.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Don't be alone with jj Cogan.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Welcome to don't be alone with Jake Cogan. You're you
and I'm Jake Cogan. That's good enough for both of us.
I want to encourage you to please please write me
at dbawjk at gmail dot com if you have any
common suggestions or a question you'd like me and my
guests to answer. I really rely on your questions.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I need them.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
They can be about anything, any silly thing, any important thing,
any part of your life. Just send it in and
you'll get credit for being a good kogaanite and supporting
the show. Also, feel free to tell people about the show.
Feel free to send people a link to this show
if you like it, to send people they might like
it too. I'd like to encourage people to see it.
(01:14):
We've had our audience grow a lot in the past
couple of months, and I really love it and I
love the fact that people like it, so I want
to keep that going. Today we have a very cool guest.
We have Jonathan Groff. He's a TV writer, former stand
up comedian, very cool guy. There's also a very famous
Broadway actor named Jonathan Groff who is won Tony's and
(01:36):
you see clips of him seeing his King George and Hamilton,
and I am going to trying to not confuse the
two of them, because one is clearly a writer who
should be here. The other one is a Broadway star
who I wish I could get, but I don't know.
So we'll see what he has to say about show business,
about working with people. He has a specialty that I've
(01:58):
done a couple of times, which is coming in to
show that our exists that somebody else created and getting
on board and helping that show become what it's supposed
to be, helping develop it to its fullest. And we'll
talk about how that works. All that ahead with Jonathan Groff.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Don't be alone.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So here we are with the wonderful Jonathan Groff Spring Awakenings, Hamilton.
I mean so much that you've done, I can't wait
to get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I have to imagine that, I how long do we
have to get the Jonathan Groff then going to just
to get your your listenership past a certain threshold.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Okay, day, I made a few minutes.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I'll be back soon. You'll see, right, You'll remember you
belong to me.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You don't sound as good as what I've seen on
the internet.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
There's a lot of processing. Even in Broadway. They get
in there and they tweak it to the sound engineers.
They get in there and they Broadway do it live.
They can ride those things. Yeah, then yeah, the mixers
do it real? I have Yeah, can we be do
we do we get salty on this show at all? Absolutely? Okay.
First time I became aware of other Jonathan Gross I
am og JG.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
But all right, okay, so you were the Jonathan Groff
before there was a Jonathan gre I was.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I was already pretty obscure and struggling before Jonathan Groff
Furst onto this right, No, I was. I had an
imdbf page and every I mean, Paige, I had a
listing right in my credit. So my old assistant, I
think you know, my old assistant, Alison Floral, ali lovely person.
She delighted in finding information about other Jonathan Broadway Jonathan
(03:40):
Broadway Johnthan Groff. So she was she first brought him.
I think my manager, Tim Sarkus knew about it too.
But also Alison maybe had my name on a Google search,
so she saw a Google news thing, so she saw
it popping up, and then she researched a review of
him in Spring Awakenings. I believe it was a gay
man who said, well, uh, the real revelation is Jonathan Groff,
(04:06):
young Jonathan Groff, who towards the end of Act Too
exposes a pair of spank worthy buttocks. Ah. So that
of course got printed out and peppered all over my
wall in my office.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Which I say has been said about you in many
writers' rooms.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yes, of course. People, yes, exactly love it.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
People love your your spank worthy buttocks.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
It gets I've gotten a bunch of jobs out of it. Yeah,
it's kept me going. Yeah, even into the end stage
of my career. The buttocks are still spanking.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Harvey Weinstein, you were one of the few bucks that
Harvey Weinstein went after. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I uh. I actually spent an afternoon in a small
room punching up Melana, a movie in Italian. He wanted
to punch up the subtitles. I was working in New York.
I got called I did a thing and I got
asked to join this weird little writer's room, and Harvey
was there and he wanted to punch up the subtitles
to an Italian move. So I don't speak at times,
it doesn't matter. He wanted to put in for jokes,
(05:00):
and he stole my potato chips from really yeah. He
reached across his desk and took my potatoes.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I've worked for both Weinstein brothers and they were both
equally horrible.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
The other Johnathan Grath thing is I once was in
New York City for a I probably told this story
on another podcast forgive me, but I was in New
York City.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
For an upfront we don't do repeat, and I got
I was I saw it was for Sony TV show
NBC upfronts came by NBC, I think whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I came back and they'd sent a car for for me,
and which they generally don't do. They don't do any
they don't generally do anymore. I think it was a
special thing. And Leah Michelle had been on my flight. Okay,
I didn't really recognize her, but she got off the
plane before me because she she I think was in
a slightly better class. I was in first, she was
(05:51):
in first. I was, I think in business. Luckily another
thing they used this class. I don't think. I think
they have to do that for writers. But anyway, I
got down to baggage claim and there was a driver
with a sign that said Jonathan Groff and young sweet
Leah Michelle was there arguing with the driver, trying to
send him away, saying he's like my best friend and
he's not going to be here for other two weeks,
(06:13):
so I don't know, you got bad information, sir. And
I was like, come on, lady, at two o'clock in.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
The morning, did you explain it to her?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I did, and she was dumbfounded and baffled. Yeah, here's
an endearing Jonathan Groff. It makes me love my wife
even more than I already. I still to this day
will get like calls saying like please could you could
you show up in support of a thing? Yeah, the
Stonewall the dedication of the Stonewall Museum. We'd like to
have you.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Speak and I would love you to show up.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I should just showed show up.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I've registered the disappointment on majer D's front of house.
People at hotel at restaurants, especially in New York City,
when if I make a reservation under my name and
I show up and they I can see a little
bit of the light from make you sure your driver's license?
I think they sure that's happened. Yeah, But my wife,
(07:02):
so years ago, we got this this letter inviting me
to be from Anna Win Tour, inviting me to be
her guest at her table at the met Gala Costume Institute,
the Met Gala thing, and and my wife. I showed
it to my wife, expecting her to just you know,
laugh along with all another confusing and she went, well,
(07:25):
it could be for you. I mean, you're you're a
very successful television writer. And she could know that that's
a thing a lot of TV producers get to the
med Gala. And it was so sweet it made me
love her.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
The amount of an email I get from Anna Winter
is just insane, even to this day. And I'm not
on anything.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I'm always trying to get you to bunch things, pool stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, we're very much alike, she and I. Yes, we're
both very demanding, both very specific.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Big sunglasses, big sunglasses. Hey, I have to tell you,
I'm in a good mood because I just got came
from the dermatologist who said everything was fine, cancer free totally.
I hadn't been in many, many years, and I hadn't
been in so long. It was a new doctor to me.
A woman and kit Boss, our mutual friend, got into
my head this weekend and I mentioned that I was
(08:13):
going to see a derma cell dermatologist. You an immediately,
man or woman. I was like, it's a woman in
Beverly Hills, and he goes, uh, you know she's gonna
she's gonna check your taint. I said, that's like a
place where melanoma shows up because nobody looks at it.
She's gonna check your taint. Well, wait a second, I
have a question. Okay, because and by the way, this
(08:33):
relates to a funny thing that I've heard you say.
It gets back to you, which I know is important me.
Everything gets back to me.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Melanoma, generally speaking, is from sun damage, and so the
taint is not the most sunned part of our body.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Speak for yourself. Okay, no, she yes, I think that's true.
Although I guess it's the kind of thing that could
probably maybe circulate in your body and migrate. I don't
know enough about it. All right, so so so you
go so and it was all and so she didn't
check my taint. She did a curse, re loooked down
the front of my drawers, which but that could have
been for the reasons.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And did you do man, hey, hey, come on, I
was taint.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I was told there'd be.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Here.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
No she I did not. You did not decline.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I was relieved that I would have hopped up on
the table, take my legs, swung them over my head
and say, lady, check it out, get in there, get it.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
This relates to us a funny line of yours that
I believe it was. My friend John Bollocks shared with
me that you once said. I think maybe maybe walking
with him on a picket line, or maybe he heard
you say it on a podcast or some of you
said that when you strip for a doctor, you sometimes
can hear an audible sigh from your doors.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Worse, worse, I went to a doctor, a doctor visit,
and you know, at a certain point they checked your prostate.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And this is the doctors.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
This is an older doctors, like at the time, probably
sixty five year old doctor. He's been doing this for
a long long time. And so he says, guy, Okay,
we gotta do the thing. He puts on the glove,
he loves his fingers up, just bend over the table.
You sure we have? Yes, we got to do this.
It's not a big deal. It's not a problem. And
then he proceeds to put his finger into my ass
(10:17):
and as he does, he goes, oh the noise he makes,
oh oh, like he's gone to vomit. He's like, I
didn't ask for this, but like I said, then then
then I can only assume it's me. I can only
assume he's been doing this for many, many years. But
something about my asshole is horrifying.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Probably done and fifty thousand at least at least And
does he do this every time? Oh?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Or is it? Or is it something about me? I
gotta believe it's me, Jonathan. Yes, thank you for being here,
of course, thank you for having me. I've I've been
listening and I like it. And I was like flattered
when you said I would want you to be honest.
You have And I did realize it was to kind
of initial because the banner on the thing on the
Spotify or iTunes whatever is going to say Jonathan Groff,
(11:07):
and you'll get some people who are going to so
I will I think we like disabuse them of that
notion pretty quickly. Right, so far, so far, But I
am going to have the other Jonathan Gross picture on
this thing. As you said, add no, no, you're natural
for being here for several reasons. There are many people
in the writing industry that we know who are very
delightful writers, delightful company. But you know, we can be
(11:30):
an awkward bunch and not everybody has sort of the
the background. You do your former stand up and you're
a performer. You're an actor, you know you have you
have show busy chops. You're not just a man behind
a keyboard.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You have things that you do.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
But the reason I have people on the show is
so that they can solve my problem understood. And one
of the reasons that you're here is that you're very
successful at as very very, very very writer. People think
of you as a very funny, very talented writer, but
they also think of you as a guy who can
come in and join and show that's in progress or
(12:08):
about to exist. Yes, and say John's going to be
on it, He's going to be either the showrunner guy
or the second in command guy. He's going to be
their help the people who created the show bring it
to fruition.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
That's a fantastic position to be in.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I it's I've been very lucky and I've gotten to
work on really cool stuff that I never would have
really been able to do because it wouldn't have been
my you know, I've had my shots and will continue
to take them. But you know the secret to my
success is failure.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Okay, of course, So so then I should be as
equally success as here because I failed certainly as much
as you have. Well, but I didn't get to co
run Blackish or or any of the sort of the
major shows that you've done, you.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Know, happy, happy endings endings.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I did.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, that was That was the first show that I
that I kind of came on as showrunner to help
a new writer who had never run a show before,
brilliant funny guy David casp Jamie Tarsis was an executive
producer on that, and we had met but had never
worked together, and it was a great opportunity. It was
the first time I did it, and it really went anywhere.
I mean, it didn't. It was still kind of a failure.
(13:17):
It meant fifty seven episodes, but it was a love
that people love that show. It has a small niche
rabid following and all of that, and it was a
wonderful cast and the Russop brothers I got to have,
the Russo brothers.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Had to marry a co star if you like, if
you worked in the show, didn't you have to marry it?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, Adam Adam Paley and I were married briefly, so yeah,
David and Casey Wilson of course set the standard of
that's what had to happen. The first time I did
it really was And this is why I say failure
was kind of key because I did this kind of
a debacle of a show called Father of the Pride,
which was weirdly, I think Jeffrey Katzenberg took the created
(13:54):
by credit, which because it wasn't actually technically a WGA show,
whatever you want, it's a Wild West West, So I
think that weirdly had it created by Jeffrey Katzenberg thing.
But then I was the developed by and showrunner with
John Pollock, and that failed miserably, and we can talk
about that.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Well, let's hold on, let's talk about that Okay, I'm
excited about the failure.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, I mean it was I know, it was a
It was a you know, animated show about the white
lions that worked for Ziegfreed and Roy, an attempt to
do Shrek style animation on a weekly basis. I think
NBC bought it. Jeff there was a big Jeffrey first class.
Of course, flew the entire executive staff of NBC up
(14:36):
to zig Freed and Roy show. No, like Vegas, we
watched the show, we had dinner, We did a pitch
in a big bungalow and I remember I think Courtney Kang,
who's gone on to become a wonderful writer, was an
executive at the time, and she got to sit next
between Zigfried and Roy on this big fluffy couch in
this bungalow at the Mirage where we pitched the show.
It was, you know, a kind of a working class
(14:56):
bunch of lions that worked for Zigfreed and Roy. John Goodman,
Cheryl Hines, Orlando Jones was Carl Reiner, which was a
career highlight, Oh my god, and he was hilarious to
work with. All those people were great to work with.
But it was you know, a couple of times. First
of all, I think NBC thought they were buying. I
don't know what they thought they were buying. I think
jeff So that's the trick. That's what Katzenberg's trick is.
(15:18):
I know, he's like dazzled them with so much stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
You don't know what you're buying until you buy it,
and then at a certain point, a few months or
years later, you realize, oh my god, we have this
this weird thing, and we bought it.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
What do we do Well, it's called Joe Biden. My
quip that if I did social media, I would a lot.
I would have quipped quib Biden was kind of the
most recent thing. Yeah, the combination of Quibi and Biden,
because yeah, he does. He's an incredible salesman and I
love Jeffrey, brilliant guy. But yeah, he's good at he's
good at selling it. And by the way, it was
a really funny show. The problem was I actually stand
(15:53):
by the show. We had incredible writers, Cheryl Holliday Barker
and Whitzman, Rob Cohen, Vanessa McCarthy, John Pollock was a
great partner, great people, John Ross, super funny people. It was, uh,
you know, NBCA, I think thought they were buying a
maybe they thought they were buying like a soft family show,
which is kind of how they promoted it because that's
sort of what DreamWorks had done. But then I had
all these like you know, ex. King of the Hill
(16:15):
and Family Guy Riders. We really went kind of for
a harder rage. That was one problem. The other real problem, though,
Jay is at about nine months into production of this
very expensive thing, Roy Horn was attacked on a stage
by a by a tiger, nearly killed. So that's a
little bit of a sure, and Jeffrey could not.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Come on incorporated into the show.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Well, in Jeffrey fashion, he tried. He basically, you know,
pleaded with a NBC executive, you got to keep this
thing going. This is helping keep Roy alive. We can
still do this and this is what Roy would want.
Those words were said, and I think it was true
actually because Roy was you know, kind of recovering, but
through his.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Screams of pain, he says, keep the cartoon alive.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
Basically in Germany, yeah, okay, don't be alone with.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
It.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
All culminated with me and John Pollock at the upfront
because the show stayed on the schedule and got on.
We spent a lot of money out and John and
I went to the upfronts in New York City and
were in the audience and they had, without really anybody
vetting it, they had DreamWorks that arranged for a video
of Roy and Zigfried together now ten months after the accident,
(17:41):
to say like, oh, you're you know Roy, this is fine.
Advertisers two thousand advertisers and Radio City Music all this
is okay to do this. And by the way, we
screened an episode of it and played very well. It
was funny. The show really was funny. And he and
he is huge. Jeff Zucker says, oh, here we go,
here's Rick Vanroy to tell you that this is okay.
So they did this pre type thing, huge screens, come
(18:03):
down to radis the musical, and he was not okay.
I mean, he's not okay, but.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
I can only imagine okay, basically injured. You know, he
was dragged off stage by a thousand pounds tiger by
his neck, and he was really not okay. And and
plus he's German to begin with, so we kind of
hard to understand to beginner. By the way, they were
lovely guys there and actually.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
They're really funny. Oh god. No, probably somewhere deep in
the ENDC archives, somebody has video could probably dredge that up.
I don't think anybody. Jeffrey's very good at like controlling
the message, so I'm sure he made it go away.
Uh he he was not, Okay, So John Pollack and
I had that unique thing of like the you know,
the air goes out of the room. Two thousand advertisers
are now like and we you know, I always choked
(18:47):
that if we had had if we had had big
briefcases on our lap that were open like at old
school atteshay cases, we would have closed them up click
and then excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me,
excuse me, like walk that way out of Radio City
Musical to get on a plane to go back to
obscurity and never to be heard from again. So that
failure that freed me up, because that came and crashed
(19:10):
and burned.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
You got freed up to do happy endings.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well no, so, father the pride died. This is two
thousand and four, and I did my very first supervising
a different a writer who had never made a pilot before,
which was a very talented guy who's gone onto a
huge career again, bigger than mine is Rodney Rothman, who
is now doing films and Spider Man, and he worked
with He was in the Judd Apatow world for a
long time and then did his own stuff. He had
(19:33):
Jump Street, Yeah exactly. He very He was a producer
on a lot of things. Get me to get him
to the Greek all that stuff. He had a sitcom
for NBC called Early Bird, which is based on a
book where he goes. He really did this lived in
his grandpa's is late grandpa's retirement condo in Florida, So
we had kind of a high school vibe, except it
(19:55):
was old people in a retirement community. And that's my
first job supervising and I liked it. Rodd it was
great to work with, and since then it was something like, oh,
I can do this. I think we got to work
with Paul Fieg, which was wonderful. It was a director
and I was like, oh, that could be a skill set.
I think coming out of Conan, I think one of
the things, in addition to failure is also some humility
because as the head writer of Conan, and I know
(20:17):
I'm jumping around. But no, no, But I got that
job about nine months into being there, And I think
it was partly because I wasn't the best writer. I
was a good writer and a funny writer, but I
was also good at like figuring out like how to
produce my pieces, make them come in on time, the
get it, make it happen. Pretty good with people, probably
pretty good with people like I. Always the joke I
(20:38):
always say is like, you know, like there would be
writers would be like, Oh, I had this incredible idea,
I wrote that sketch up. Great. Did you tell Bill
tell the prop guy that we need a mailbox full
of blood?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
No, I forgot to let him know. So just let
Bill tell the prop guy know that we need a
mailbox full of blood for the sketch there wrote. So
I think I was good at like being that guy
in addition to like kind of you know. And there
was a there was an episode we did on the
Circle Line, and marsh McCall, our old pal, late great
marshallcall who hired me at that job at that show,
(21:08):
was sick and he couldn't be there, and I ended
up sort of stepping up and being like the head
writer for the day kind of as we did this
basically very ambitious live show, and I think Conan and
Jeff Ross, his producer, were like, you know, he's really
funny and he gets it, and so I think being
and I think part of that is now to this day,
like I don't assume I'm the funniest guy in the
(21:30):
room or have the right answer all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
That's just that's just self knowledge knowledge. Yeah, because you
would agree absolutely everybody that's kind of that. That's that's
your that's your rep certainly not the funniest guy, not
the funniest guy the room. As a matter of fact,
you're here, That's what the other subject. What's it like
to be not the funniest guy there is? It's I
don't know what that's like.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's untarged territory. It's weird. And by the way, being
the showrunner who always has the answer, that can be
good if it's just your show and it's your baby,
and maybe if you're that kind of impresario whose strides
above it all, like this colossus, who is the one
who everybody answers to, and if you can execute and
get people to execute your vision, more power to you.
(22:10):
I've always been much more like, I'm really funny. I'm
gonna hire really funny people. I'm gonna hire Gail Learner
and Courtney Lily. Uh well actually they were already hired
on Blackish, but well, Corney Lily we hired anyway, or
or you know, Josh Bysel or whatever to great people
and let them do their jobs and let them do
their thing, and then also go like that joke or
your story fixed here is better than mine, right, and
(22:31):
I don't have it doesn't have to be my answer,
of course, and and so being a little bit of like,
but here's the mamility of the show.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
The humility of the showrunner is this, even when you
say that idea is better than mine, the blessing of
the idea that it's better than mine, that it goes
in the show makes it kind of your thing too.
It's like, yeah, of course it's a no win. It's
like a no lose situation, and you know, like, you know, hey,
we need a joke to get out this. The showrunner said,
(23:00):
well what about this? Oh fatam? The showrunner said it
it's great, And then or the show runner picked somebody
else's Oh what a he's for sure. The guy's a genius. Yes,
it's just the chair. I think a lot of it's
the chair and everybody wanting an answer from who's ever
in that chair?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I think that's true. There's a lot of it. But
you know what else it is too? I think it's
it's and I think the best show owners I have
I've seen and worked for and with. It's also taste,
like honestly right, it's like like choosing what's the thing
that makes the most sense and feels right and going
like I didn't come up with that, but but Jay did.
(23:34):
And that goes in even though damn it's it's not
getting and.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I did personal taste.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
It's taste.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
It's taste knowing the tone of the show, like it
fits the show. It may not be even your thing,
but it's like on our show, we do it this way.
So here's the thing. So you're listening, you're good at listening,
you're funny and creative. We'll get to how that got
to show up somewhere from your background. It doesn't immediately
seem that you've become a stand up comedian and a
(24:02):
comedy writer.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
But okay, I have an answer for that. Yeah, what
is it. Well, my dad was funny, and he was
on some level, there's a performative aspect. Look, there is
a level of like he's got to write ten to
fifteen minutes of new material every Sunday, first sermon. And
I think we also, you know, I grew up in
the Golden Age, as did you of like all of
these incredible shows to watch and be influenced by, like
(24:25):
you know, Mayor Tyler Moore and the old Dick Van
Dyke Show and Andy Griffith and then All in the
Family and Sanford and Son and Good Times and then
the sketch shows that all of a sudden from Cale Burnett,
you know, then into Signent Live and a little later
Kids in the Hall SCTV huge. So you you know,
I was able to have that thing sort of like
a lot of people did, yeah and didn't become you, right,
(24:47):
So like what did my parents a huge shoutout? All right,
just as I gave my wife a shot big listeners
of the show.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
By the way, so oh yeah they're dead.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
They doesn't mean they're listening. They are listening. I think
I like to think that they here's a shout out
to them. We had no money my dad was episcopal priest.
My mom was a book editor, teacher then a book editor.
And I remember calling my parents and saying, Mom and Dad,
I'm thinking about it. I've had this experience. This is
maybe beginning of senior year, end of junior year or whatever,
and I'm thinking about applying to business school. And they
(25:25):
were like, oh, okay, oh sure, if that's something you know, yeah,
if that okay, No, that's great, that's great. I like
they got their mind reluctance, reluctance, reluctance. And then probably
three or four months later, and our mutual friend of
ours figures into this story, we can get to that.
I saw what I'd always been kept this. I'd acted
(25:46):
in high school and done a little bit of stuff
at Brown, but had gotten intimidated by the actory people.
So I hadn't done much, but I was still interested
in that stuff. I saw stand up comedy live the
first time in my life here in Los Angeles the
summer of nineteen. I said, I think I want to
try to do that. So three or four months later,
I called my parents. I said, I think I'm going
to start writing stuff and try my hand at stand
(26:07):
up comedy. And they were like, that's great, that makes
so much like literally I could almost hear them hang
up the phone agle like that makes so much more sense.
They were relieved. Wow, so how blessed. That's amazing. That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
What made you stop doing stand up and start writing?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I did stand up all in. I started after college,
started in Boston to open mics, and I did it,
and that was my career. I kind of look at
my career as like a movement towards stand up, which
was writing discreete small amounts of material. Then about or
five years into that, I started working with a bunch
of comedy sketch people David Cross and John Benjamin and
(26:42):
Carrie Prussa and John Ennis and Lauren Dombrowski and all
really funny people who lean lantry up in Boston, David Waterman,
too many people to name a I'm going to forget somebody,
I apologize, But we were in this sketch group up
in Boston, and that was longer pieces of material. I
was writing sketches now and performing in them. And then
Conan was sketchy again. I wasn't a joke writer, a
monologue writer. On that was sketchy. Were finally writing half hours,
and I think I was I think the it was
(27:03):
a little bit the courage to put something down on
paper that was longer and also not my own thing right,
And I think that was another thing. The thing I
always say to young people starting out is like stand
up was good for me, and I helped me hone
my voice and I have relationships, and that helped me
get my first jobs that were meaningful. You know, people
who stepped up and said things to help me get
(27:24):
my job at Conan or I worked for John Stewart,
and that was through some stand up relationship friends, you know,
friends who stepped up and said nice things. But I
always say to younger writers that with stand up I
was I was in the right house with comedy with
stand up comedy, but I was knocking on the door
of the wrong room. And once I knocked on the
sort of like, hey, you know, you can write stuff
(27:45):
for other people and have it produced, whether it's sketches
that you cast other people in, or that stuff for
Conan or bits for Conan desk, piece of sketches, or
eventually like a half hour. That's where things took off.
And also were these sort of I think some emotional
intelligence I had from whatever, being the kid of a
minister and a book editor and having that radio station
(28:08):
experience in college where I ran something and knew how
to be kind of a leader. I was serviced so much.
My career took off once I started to like become
right for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Right, Right, Let's go back yes, Happy Endings, Yes, and
then go to blackest your Happy Endings.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yes, you're you're there.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You're helping David make his show.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Uh, Gor, how'd you ride that wave between between having
an idea and standing back and letting David.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
You know, get his voice heard. It kind of happened
organically and David will speak to this.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
He and I.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Actually, I think there's a happy end David will not
talk to me, or there's a Happy Endings podcast. We
actually talk about this that Casey Wilson and Adam Pally
have hosted and josh by Cell helped make happen. It's
great and I think we're on the first episode and
we talked about it. I think he was he was
a screenwriter, baby screenwriter. Had really he sold one idea,
I think, uh, but he had agents who sort of
(29:04):
set him up with Jamie Tartis and she's like, there's
something here with this guy. He's got an idea for
like a friends type show, but he was really not experienced.
I remember like when he and I were trying to
rewrite some sides during the pilot process because the sides
were not popping to doing the job. Sides are the
pages that actors have to audition with. Additionally, you know,
(29:25):
and they're usually from the script that you're shooting, so
we had I never do that, used different ones. Yes,
I've learned that tricks. I've learned that trick. Yes, because
at my first pilot I didn't do that, and by
the time I got to the table read carry Burke
was like nodded off at the exactly because they've heard
it a thousand So you write news sides, and the
news sides that you give the actress to audition with
(29:46):
should have who their character is, should have quite a.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Few jokes, maybe more jokes on their side. And because
the actors usually reading, we have the casting director make
sure the other person the scene has very little to
say and the other.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And I just don't want a long monologue for us.
Susan Vash even though she's still like.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
But then also I would also throw in some difficult
long speeches, and I would also make it maybe a
few tongue twisters.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And a few about some physical comedy, physical comedy for sure,
maybe make them pick up a thing awkwardly.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
See how they do. You know, all that stuff, all
the testing stuff, and that none of it's going in
the show, just for the fun.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Of the side.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
So David and I were writing some new sides and
he went he just was like, this is really hard,
Like he couldn't. It was hard for him to write
with somebody else. Maybe it was just me, but I
don't think so, because uh, actually maybe he's doing that.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Thing where you stand over him and look.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Physically and then just go. But we were writing together
and then it started to get easier, and then I
was like, Okay, we have a table read, we have
a series of table reads coming up. Let's bring in
some friends. So I brought in I think Josh by Cell, Prentice,
Penny Lee, Lastron, wonderful writers and who I remember getting that.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Oh no, you didn't say that's all right, that's all right.
I'm not I'm not still hurt.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Jesus No, But I knew inevitably would come to us. Yes,
he he was at first like I don't, I don't
know if I like and then it was like wait
a second, and then he brought in a friend of
his who was a funny comedian. And then he brought
in two wonderful, hilarious writers who are friends if his
were just starting out but actually had I think they've
been on Robot Chicken Daniel and Matthew Libban l I
(31:24):
b m a n super funny guys. They have a
new show out called Mister Throwback on Peacock plugging somebody
Else's show because they're great with Adam Paley and courage.
Everybody's watching it does have Steph Curry, so that's cool.
So he he brought those guys in and all of
a sudden he was like, oh wait, this rewrite of
our pilot script is getting funnier and I'm and I
(31:46):
taught him like how you incorporate people's ideas, how you
hold on to your ideas as needed, and like like say, like,
that's not really what we're going for. Try some things,
and I kind of like I got him used to
the idea of collaboration and being in a writer's room
and the power, the wonderful power and mystery of a
(32:07):
comedy writer's room. He kind of and now, but I
will say by episode he tried to rewrite because he
just thought he had to and he felt dutiful, like
there was a second episode that we had that wasn't
quite working, and he did read alone. He did a
rewrite alone over the weekend and brought it in and
then it didn't quite work and he was like, I
don't want to do that again. And from then on
he was If I talked to the other day about it,
(32:27):
we had, we had drinks on it. He was like,
he goes, I don't like not having two or three
other people help me on something. I love a writer's
room and I love I love and I think it's
about like how do you articulate a vision that you
can and know your characters pretty well, But I'll be
also open to letting other people shape your characters. Like
on Happy Endings, Alicia Cuthbert's character Alex was not who
(32:51):
turned out to be very funny and really a wonderful character.
She was not at all we like to say innocent,
but she was kind of a little bit played the
dumb character a little bit to some extent, or the
you know, the one who marches to the beat of
a different drummer. That was not in the pilot really
because she'd actually done the bad thing. She'd run away
from from our league guy at the altar had hurt him,
(33:11):
so she had a long distance. So like in the
second episode, we were working at it as a group,
you know, in the first season with the writing staff,
and Josh Biselo said, like, what if we make her
a little bit you know, goofy, you're a little off
or a little dumb or you know whatever, And that's
where that came from. And that was that was a
whole character that he informed just with kind of like
maybe we could use that in this show. Like I said,
everybody being so smart and fast all the time, she's
(33:32):
like a step behind it in a way is a
step ahead, you know, which is kind of what we
ended up coming up with. And and like you get
you create that with your staff, and I think David
saw the power of that and saw the power of
letting people into.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
The hard part about that. I think for a lot
of people, not for me. I grew up in a
very collaborative writing situation which was called dinner. But but honestly,
the hard part when you're running a show is is
having the the wherewithal the say politely, we're not doing that,
and that the know is the hardest hard. You know,
(34:05):
sometimes when somebody begins speaking that we're not going in
that direction, but you don't be rude to that person.
They're giving their creative juices there there, they're giving something,
so you want to hear them out to the right extent,
except it's getting late to the clock. You have to finish,
We're getting tired, and so you have to be able
to be strong enough to say to convey I think
(34:29):
you're a great writer, we're just not doing that. And
and if you're able to do that, that's sometimes it
becomes an overwhelming amount of work for some people.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
It's hard. It's hard. It's taxing to make those decisions
over and over, you know, making decisions and you're making
decisions all the time as a showrunner is really hard.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Don't be alone.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
So apparently Barack Obama, because he was aware of the tax,
the tax puts on your body and brain to make
decisions all the time, Apparently when he was present, would
limit the number of meaningless decisions he would have to make.
So he would have his clothes picked out for him.
He would never want to know like a lunch menu
or anything like that. And I would do that, try
(35:25):
to do that as a shower, like I don't care
what we get for lunch. I can't make that decision
because you're making the decisions. It does come at a
cost when you have to say to somebody like, as
you said, I love you, and I think that's interesting,
but we're not doing that. Also, I think it's good.
One way I found is reminding they're the writers who
pitch stuff that blows up a lot of stuff that
(35:46):
we've already kind of agreed on. So I would use
the expression we have dry land here, meaning this is
we already we got a beach out here. We don't
need to go back because if we did your pitch,
you realize that that would undo. And I've had even
writers I love, we'll name, but they will I've had
to go and then they go, oh, yeah, you're right,
you're right right. Thread pullers we call them thread pullers.
Uh in the room.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
There's some people I've worked with who are brilliant thread
pullers and they say they want they want the last
like we're going to the table read. It's like, let's
go back to the board and they start reoutlining the show's.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Like no, no, no, no, no, no no no, we
got that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
We're good, We're good. We're going to read something. We
need to fix this area, so let's fix this area first.
But some people just love ripping it apart and putting
it back together. I don't have that kind of energy. Well, listen,
we have not talked about Spring Awakening yet at all,
so I'm very concerned about that. Like, was it weird
getting naked on top of Liam Michelle or I'm I'm
(36:43):
confusing with the other one. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
That's We've been talking for a while about television comedy writing.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So excited about the other Broadway Jonathan Groff, Oh g JJ,
what's my latest thing.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I've gotten from him? Yeah? I emailed him recently because
oh I actually finally saw we roll Along. Oh he
was fantastic. Guess one of the last protesians. Yes, emailed him.
He didn't get back to me.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
All right, So now it's we've heard what it's like
to be a co exec slast showrunner. Second in command,
and I appreciate that. I am going to try and
do my best to usurp you, okay, and be that
guy for other shows at some point.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Well failure, here's my other recommendation, come off of a
failed pilot. Okay, I can do that. Yes, so that
they've always come and asked me right after. Like I
coming into Blackish twenty fourteen, I had super written one
pilot of my own and supervised three other writers who
were wonderful. June, Diane Rayphiel, and kat Sie Wilson had
(37:40):
written something hilarious. I was supervising that two other things
and my own thing. None of them went and I
was the ABC. I was in a deal at ABC,
and they asked me, would you help out on Blackish? Well, lucky,
I loved the pilot. I didn't want to run another
show right away because I was coming off with happy endings.
But I think being being available, yeah, is definitely the
(38:02):
first step. And I and and I think they hit
you when you're a little bit on your back foot
of like a little bit on that one. By the way,
it was an incredible opportunity to get to work on Blackis.
Kenny has given me massive shit rightfully. When I was like, Gralf,
we had to fucking lean on you to do that job.
I was like, well, I just run happy endings. I
just coming off these four pilots that flopped. I needed
a minute to lick my wounds. I loved the show
(38:23):
and you from get go. But He's like, uh huh, yeah,
all we offered you was the opportunity to help me
run a lifetime and I realized that. Yeah, but uh,
you know being so that's that the failure part is,
that's how I handle that. Just fine. I got plenty
of failures.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Okay, that's uh, I'll get started, all right. So now
here's a question. This is from listener. This is called
listener mail.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Yeah, now it's time for listener man.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Can I ask quick questions? Sure, Charlie Cogan did he?
Did he do those? Charlie Cogan did all that? Yeah,
and for free. Charlie Cogan is Chase wonderfully talent, very
brilliant son.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
As concerts coming up all over Los Angeles, the coolest,
Dear Jay and Guest. I find the state of the
entertainment industry to be less original than it used to be.
These days, it seems like everything is a remake, a reboot,
a sequel or prequel, part of a huge franchise, or
based on a ride at Disneyland. How can the viewers
(39:23):
support truly unique films and television shows and hopefully give
them enough of an audience for people to make more
original content.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's a great question, and it's a great observation. I
agree to some extent obviously, like I think the feature
film industry is. I've heard people though talk about it.
Who was I was on some zoom with industry professional types.
I think it was Tom Asheim maybe who was saying,
like they've overplayed the studios have overplayed this sequel and
(39:52):
to the point where like they're realizing they can't do
it anymore only and that people want something else, which
is why something even though it's based on a toy
like Barbie or felt like original and fresh, or even Oppenheimer,
which is a biopic but still was different and not
the same old, same old. And I think you'll see
things like that in a big studio level, So support
those things. I do think there's always going to be
(40:14):
you just have to work a little harder and find
the you know, the things that that are were original
and funny that could be brought back and or get
or give those creators who made something original another chance
to make another something else interesting. I was just involved
with a really cool show. I was a non writing
executive producer of a show called This Fool on Hulu
created by Chris Estrada who starred in it, starred Frankie Knionis,
(40:37):
who was amazing and hilarious, Michael imperially and created by
Jake Wiseman, Matt Ingbertson and Pat Bishop and they were
like real funny, weirdo writer guys who did this hilarious
show on Comedy Central called Corporate and the show is
I didn't write it, so I can say this was
brilliantly interesting. Compelling shows on Hulu is really cool. So
I think there are those things out there. Maybe you
just don't look for those things there, like you know,
(41:02):
you have to look for those Like David Hemingson was
a friend of ours, was put on social media. So
I was touting a show called like Last Trip to
Yuma or something like that that just came out with
a small feature or this movie Thelma that just came out.
You have to like find the little things and go
to the art houses if you can, or go to
the niches of the recesses of Amazon and Netflix and
(41:25):
watch those things because they are on there. They buy everything.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, it's there. It's hard to support. I mean, does
my view my one view I account, and it doesn't
feel like those feels like those movies are forgotten. They're
on the streaming services, but they're left there to sort
of die. I know that they keep track of everybody
who watches, but it doesn't feel like they get the
support I understand.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
No, That's why I don't disagree with their assessment. I
do think there's always going to be then then, I mean,
this is sad to say, and it doesn't help us
with our job security, but find that stuff on YouTube
and TikTok that is entertaining, and then follow that creator
as they get he or she gets an opportunity to
do something else.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
I also think that the larger studios, they've been like
on a cocaine binge of reboots and remakes.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
And stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And while while you're doing it, it seems great, dreams great,
but at a certain point you realize it's a problem
and now you have to change.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, you're eating the seed corn, like where's the next
thing coming from?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
And and and it's also not working, like there's so
many things in the Marvel universe, and there's so many
things that the prequel and they're just taking shows that
no one heard of and rebooting them for no reason
other than their ip that somebody owns.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
It's insane.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
So that's not working as a policy.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I think.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
However, last year Barbie comes out, so it's like, Okay,
well there's.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
An ip that it's an ip, but it was done,
you know, so it's everything with this genius sort of
way of doing it by a by a auteur filmmaker,
to use the fancy word.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
And also a woman was involved, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
As a producer and as a yeah I know Greta Gerwig.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Was she involved at all?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
That is that was Barbie was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
And the Deadpool movie, which is a big hit right now, yes,
is really original and fun and fantastic. It just happens
to be a major motion picture that costs four hundred
million dollars but also was really smartly done fantastic.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I mean, I think, as you know, in the television
studio world, I always appreciated Sony television studios attitude because
they weren't the one studio that was not affiliated with
and still aren't a big network. So they were the
ones who figured out, and this is coming back ten
or twelve years, but the ones who figured out, like,
what if we hit some doubles and singles right, and
all of a sudden we get we hit a thing
that looks like a double, like breaking bad, and then
(43:39):
it turns into a monster thing. And they made they
took some more chances. And I think if people can
think like that of like less ten poly and more
like how do we hit a double that can endure
and then become something bigger, you know, as a series
for example.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
You know, all right, now it's time for a moment
of joy, a moment of joy. It can't be your kids,
it can't be your job, but what gives you joy
other than that?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
So the other day I this is probably a sign
of early mental degeneration. I had my bike had been
out in the garage for a long time. It had
been outside sometimes too, because our garage is actually like
a little guesthouse slash office, so it had been sitting
(44:28):
outside to not be in the way. And I was like, oh,
I'm sure the tires have been sun damaged. I hadn't
written it in a long time. I'm sure the tires
are sun damaged, and the seed is is definitely still
kind of dried out whatever. And I saw the gears
were messed up, and I was like, I'm going to
take it to my local bike short shop and get
it tuned up, get new tires on it. And then
(44:51):
I looked at it and I was like, oh, these
tires are actually brand new and the gears work perfectly.
I had done this exact act tune up four years ago, okay,
and it had never ridden it. Oh my god. I
like to hike all the time. I'm not a lump,
I do. I do exercise, but I hike in Griffith
Park mostly all the time. And and and me.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
I hike it all the time. Let's take a hike
someth I would love that. Okay, good, I'd never hike
through griff Park.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I would love to. Let's go, let's go, well'll hike
and then have lunch. Okay, let's do that. We'll make
that plan. But okay. So I so I looked at
my bike. I discovered work that I had done which
is always like a mitzvah, it's that's the right use
of that. Yes, absolutely, okay, And I was like, oh
my god, I already did this. So I just walked
the bike to the service station on the corner near
my house, put air in the tires, put my helmet on,
(45:38):
and went, this is last Sunday, went for this fantastic
bike ride down the La bike Path, La River bike Path,
which is you know, the La River is what it is.
But it was glorious and unknocked busy, and I was like,
and it was one of those just late afternoons summer,
like La is so beautiful that sometimes it's oppressive, Yes,
(45:58):
and it was, but it had turned the heat also
makes it a little impressive. But like it was just like, oh,
I am leaning into the beauty of Los Angeles and
serendipitously finding this bike ride that I didn't think I
was going to get to take today, right, And and
I just and riding bikes I find anyway is a
great It's definitely an old guy thing. It's definitely people
old dudes like get into it a lot, and they
(46:19):
have helmets and all that ship. But it's it's a
great speed at which to experience the world traffic.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yes, but it's and by the way, Mitzvah, I may
have said incorrectly said it's the right. Mitzvah is something
that God commands, So that something. So if if that
would make God happy, So if reusing your bike is
something that would make God happy, that's.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Not really he doesn't care.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's I didn't use I tried it.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
I'm not Jewish, but I like love. I I I
love the Jewish people my moment of joy. Let me
tell you.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
I don't know if you know this story, but there's
a doctor Levenstein I used to have and he used
to grease up his thing. We're running out of time.
I'm for running out of time. So I want to
thank you for being here my pleasure. Even though you
weren't the Jonathan Graff I was expecting. I still think
that you're very talented and I can't wait to hear
your next album, so I'm very excited about that.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Thank you, Ja.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
I want to thank you the audience at home for
listening or watching or whatever you're doing. Thank you for
being here. Please share the show with somebody if you
like it, and also write me at dbawjk at gmail
dot com. If you have a comment or criticism or
a lovely question that I can ask my guest, I
would love it. And thanks for being here and I'll
(47:35):
see you next time.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Don't be alone with jj co
Straw Hut Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Jonathan Groff, and if you are not a
fan of the muscular four foot of a marine gaspropod
mollusc don't be abaloney with j Cogan.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Don't be alone with jj Cogan.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Welcome to don't be alone with Jake Cogan. You're you
and I'm Jake Cogan. That's good enough for both of us.
I want to encourage you to please please write me
at dbawjk at gmail dot com if you have any
common suggestions or a question you'd like me and my
guests to answer. I really rely on your questions.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
I need them.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
They can be about anything, any silly thing, any important thing,
any part of your life. Just send it in and
you'll get credit for being a good kogaanite and supporting
the show. Also, feel free to tell people about the show.
Feel free to send people a link to this show
if you like it, to send people they might like
it too. I'd like to encourage people to see it.
(01:14):
We've had our audience grow a lot in the past
couple of months, and I really love it and I
love the fact that people like it, so I want
to keep that going. Today we have a very cool guest.
We have Jonathan Groff. He's a TV writer, former stand
up comedian, very cool guy. There's also a very famous
Broadway actor named Jonathan Groff who is won Tony's and
(01:36):
you see clips of him seeing his King George and Hamilton,
and I am going to trying to not confuse the
two of them, because one is clearly a writer who
should be here. The other one is a Broadway star
who I wish I could get, but I don't know.
So we'll see what he has to say about show business,
about working with people. He has a specialty that I've
(01:58):
done a couple of times, which is coming in to
show that our exists that somebody else created and getting
on board and helping that show become what it's supposed
to be, helping develop it to its fullest. And we'll
talk about how that works. All that ahead with Jonathan Groff.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Don't be alone.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So here we are with the wonderful Jonathan Groff Spring Awakenings, Hamilton.
I mean so much that you've done, I can't wait
to get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I have to imagine that, I how long do we
have to get the Jonathan Groff then going to just
to get your your listenership past a certain threshold.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Okay, day, I made a few minutes.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I'll be back soon. You'll see, right, You'll remember you
belong to me.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
You don't sound as good as what I've seen on
the internet.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
There's a lot of processing. Even in Broadway. They get
in there and they tweak it to the sound engineers.
They get in there and they Broadway do it live.
They can ride those things. Yeah, then yeah, the mixers
do it real? I have Yeah, can we be do
we do we get salty on this show at all? Absolutely? Okay.
First time I became aware of other Jonathan Gross I
am og JG.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
But all right, okay, so you were the Jonathan Groff
before there was a Jonathan gre I was.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I was already pretty obscure and struggling before Jonathan Groff
Furst onto this right, No, I was. I had an
imdbf page and every I mean, Paige, I had a
listing right in my credit. So my old assistant, I
think you know, my old assistant, Alison Floral, ali lovely person.
She delighted in finding information about other Jonathan Broadway Jonathan
(03:40):
Broadway Johnthan Groff. So she was she first brought him.
I think my manager, Tim Sarkus knew about it too.
But also Alison maybe had my name on a Google search,
so she saw a Google news thing, so she saw
it popping up, and then she researched a review of
him in Spring Awakenings. I believe it was a gay
man who said, well, uh, the real revelation is Jonathan Groff,
(04:06):
young Jonathan Groff, who towards the end of Act Too
exposes a pair of spank worthy buttocks. Ah. So that
of course got printed out and peppered all over my
wall in my office.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Which I say has been said about you in many
writers' rooms.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yes, of course. People, yes, exactly love it.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
People love your your spank worthy buttocks.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
It gets I've gotten a bunch of jobs out of it. Yeah,
it's kept me going. Yeah, even into the end stage
of my career. The buttocks are still spanking.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Harvey Weinstein, you were one of the few bucks that
Harvey Weinstein went after. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I uh. I actually spent an afternoon in a small
room punching up Melana, a movie in Italian. He wanted
to punch up the subtitles. I was working in New York.
I got called I did a thing and I got
asked to join this weird little writer's room, and Harvey
was there and he wanted to punch up the subtitles
to an Italian move. So I don't speak at times,
it doesn't matter. He wanted to put in for jokes,
(05:00):
and he stole my potato chips from really yeah. He
reached across his desk and took my potatoes.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I've worked for both Weinstein brothers and they were both
equally horrible.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
The other Johnathan Grath thing is I once was in
New York City for a I probably told this story
on another podcast forgive me, but I was in New
York City.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
For an upfront we don't do repeat, and I got
I was I saw it was for Sony TV show
NBC upfronts came by NBC, I think whatever.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I came back and they'd sent a car for for me,
and which they generally don't do. They don't do any
they don't generally do anymore. I think it was a
special thing. And Leah Michelle had been on my flight. Okay,
I didn't really recognize her, but she got off the
plane before me because she she I think was in
a slightly better class. I was in first, she was
(05:51):
in first. I was, I think in business. Luckily another
thing they used this class. I don't think. I think
they have to do that for writers. But anyway, I
got down to baggage claim and there was a driver
with a sign that said Jonathan Groff and young sweet
Leah Michelle was there arguing with the driver, trying to
send him away, saying he's like my best friend and
he's not going to be here for other two weeks,
(06:13):
so I don't know, you got bad information, sir. And
I was like, come on, lady, at two o'clock in.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
The morning, did you explain it to her?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I did, and she was dumbfounded and baffled. Yeah, here's
an endearing Jonathan Groff. It makes me love my wife
even more than I already. I still to this day
will get like calls saying like please could you could
you show up in support of a thing? Yeah, the
Stonewall the dedication of the Stonewall Museum. We'd like to
have you.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Speak and I would love you to show up.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I should just showed show up.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I've registered the disappointment on majer D's front of house.
People at hotel at restaurants, especially in New York City,
when if I make a reservation under my name and
I show up and they I can see a little
bit of the light from make you sure your driver's license?
I think they sure that's happened. Yeah, But my wife,
(07:02):
so years ago, we got this this letter inviting me
to be from Anna Win Tour, inviting me to be
her guest at her table at the met Gala Costume Institute,
the Met Gala thing, and and my wife. I showed
it to my wife, expecting her to just you know,
laugh along with all another confusing and she went, well,
(07:25):
it could be for you. I mean, you're you're a
very successful television writer. And she could know that that's
a thing a lot of TV producers get to the
med Gala. And it was so sweet it made me
love her.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
The amount of an email I get from Anna Winter
is just insane, even to this day. And I'm not
on anything.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I'm always trying to get you to bunch things, pool stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Well, we're very much alike, she and I. Yes, we're
both very demanding, both very specific.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Big sunglasses, big sunglasses. Hey, I have to tell you,
I'm in a good mood because I just got came
from the dermatologist who said everything was fine, cancer free totally.
I hadn't been in many, many years, and I hadn't
been in so long. It was a new doctor to me.
A woman and kit Boss, our mutual friend, got into
my head this weekend and I mentioned that I was
(08:13):
going to see a derma cell dermatologist. You an immediately,
man or woman. I was like, it's a woman in
Beverly Hills, and he goes, uh, you know she's gonna
she's gonna check your taint. I said, that's like a
place where melanoma shows up because nobody looks at it.
She's gonna check your taint. Well, wait a second, I
have a question. Okay, because and by the way, this
(08:33):
relates to a funny thing that I've heard you say.
It gets back to you, which I know is important me.
Everything gets back to me.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Melanoma, generally speaking, is from sun damage, and so the
taint is not the most sunned part of our body.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Speak for yourself. Okay, no, she yes, I think that's true.
Although I guess it's the kind of thing that could
probably maybe circulate in your body and migrate. I don't
know enough about it. All right, so so so you
go so and it was all and so she didn't
check my taint. She did a curse, re loooked down
the front of my drawers, which but that could have
been for the reasons.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
And did you do man, hey, hey, come on, I
was taint.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I was told there'd be.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Here.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
No she I did not. You did not decline.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I was relieved that I would have hopped up on
the table, take my legs, swung them over my head
and say, lady, check it out, get in there, get it.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
This relates to us a funny line of yours that
I believe it was. My friend John Bollocks shared with
me that you once said. I think maybe maybe walking
with him on a picket line, or maybe he heard
you say it on a podcast or some of you
said that when you strip for a doctor, you sometimes
can hear an audible sigh from your doors.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Worse, worse, I went to a doctor, a doctor visit,
and you know, at a certain point they checked your prostate.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And this is the doctors.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
This is an older doctors, like at the time, probably
sixty five year old doctor. He's been doing this for
a long long time. And so he says, guy, Okay,
we gotta do the thing. He puts on the glove,
he loves his fingers up, just bend over the table.
You sure we have? Yes, we got to do this.
It's not a big deal. It's not a problem. And
then he proceeds to put his finger into my ass
(10:17):
and as he does, he goes, oh the noise he makes,
oh oh, like he's gone to vomit. He's like, I
didn't ask for this, but like I said, then then
then I can only assume it's me. I can only
assume he's been doing this for many, many years. But
something about my asshole is horrifying.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Probably done and fifty thousand at least at least And
does he do this every time? Oh?
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Or is it? Or is it something about me? I
gotta believe it's me, Jonathan. Yes, thank you for being here,
of course, thank you for having me. I've I've been
listening and I like it. And I was like flattered
when you said I would want you to be honest.
You have And I did realize it was to kind
of initial because the banner on the thing on the
Spotify or iTunes whatever is going to say Jonathan Groff,
(11:07):
and you'll get some people who are going to so
I will I think we like disabuse them of that
notion pretty quickly. Right, so far, so far, But I
am going to have the other Jonathan Gross picture on
this thing. As you said, add no, no, you're natural
for being here for several reasons. There are many people
in the writing industry that we know who are very
delightful writers, delightful company. But you know, we can be
(11:30):
an awkward bunch and not everybody has sort of the
the background. You do your former stand up and you're
a performer. You're an actor, you know you have you
have show busy chops. You're not just a man behind
a keyboard.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You have things that you do.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
But the reason I have people on the show is
so that they can solve my problem understood. And one
of the reasons that you're here is that you're very
successful at as very very, very very writer. People think
of you as a very funny, very talented writer, but
they also think of you as a guy who can
come in and join and show that's in progress or
(12:08):
about to exist. Yes, and say John's going to be
on it, He's going to be either the showrunner guy
or the second in command guy. He's going to be
their help the people who created the show bring it
to fruition.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
That's a fantastic position to be in.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
I it's I've been very lucky and I've gotten to
work on really cool stuff that I never would have
really been able to do because it wouldn't have been
my you know, I've had my shots and will continue
to take them. But you know the secret to my
success is failure.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Okay, of course, So so then I should be as
equally success as here because I failed certainly as much
as you have. Well, but I didn't get to co
run Blackish or or any of the sort of the
major shows that you've done, you.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Know, happy, happy endings endings.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I did.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, that was That was the first show that I
that I kind of came on as showrunner to help
a new writer who had never run a show before,
brilliant funny guy David casp Jamie Tarsis was an executive
producer on that, and we had met but had never
worked together, and it was a great opportunity. It was
the first time I did it, and it really went anywhere.
I mean, it didn't. It was still kind of a failure.
(13:17):
It meant fifty seven episodes, but it was a love
that people love that show. It has a small niche
rabid following and all of that, and it was a
wonderful cast and the Russop brothers I got to have,
the Russo brothers.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Had to marry a co star if you like, if
you worked in the show, didn't you have to marry it?
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yes, Adam Adam Paley and I were married briefly, so yeah,
David and Casey Wilson of course set the standard of
that's what had to happen. The first time I did
it really was And this is why I say failure
was kind of key because I did this kind of
a debacle of a show called Father of the Pride,
which was weirdly, I think Jeffrey Katzenberg took the created
(13:54):
by credit, which because it wasn't actually technically a WGA show,
whatever you want, it's a Wild West West, So I
think that weirdly had it created by Jeffrey Katzenberg thing.
But then I was the developed by and showrunner with
John Pollock, and that failed miserably, and we can talk
about that.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Well, let's hold on, let's talk about that Okay, I'm
excited about the failure.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, I mean it was I know, it was a
It was a you know, animated show about the white
lions that worked for Ziegfreed and Roy, an attempt to
do Shrek style animation on a weekly basis. I think
NBC bought it. Jeff there was a big Jeffrey first class.
Of course, flew the entire executive staff of NBC up
(14:36):
to zig Freed and Roy show. No, like Vegas, we
watched the show, we had dinner, We did a pitch
in a big bungalow and I remember I think Courtney Kang,
who's gone on to become a wonderful writer, was an
executive at the time, and she got to sit next
between Zigfried and Roy on this big fluffy couch in
this bungalow at the Mirage where we pitched the show.
It was, you know, a kind of a working class
(14:56):
bunch of lions that worked for Zigfreed and Roy. John Goodman,
Cheryl Hines, Orlando Jones was Carl Reiner, which was a
career highlight, Oh my god, and he was hilarious to
work with. All those people were great to work with.
But it was you know, a couple of times. First
of all, I think NBC thought they were buying. I
don't know what they thought they were buying. I think
jeff So that's the trick. That's what Katzenberg's trick is.
(15:18):
I know, he's like dazzled them with so much stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
You don't know what you're buying until you buy it,
and then at a certain point, a few months or
years later, you realize, oh my god, we have this
this weird thing, and we bought it.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
What do we do Well, it's called Joe Biden. My
quip that if I did social media, I would a lot.
I would have quipped quib Biden was kind of the
most recent thing. Yeah, the combination of Quibi and Biden,
because yeah, he does. He's an incredible salesman and I
love Jeffrey, brilliant guy. But yeah, he's good at he's
good at selling it. And by the way, it was
a really funny show. The problem was I actually stand
(15:53):
by the show. We had incredible writers, Cheryl Holliday Barker
and Whitzman, Rob Cohen, Vanessa McCarthy, John Pollock was a
great partner, great people, John Ross, super funny people. It was, uh,
you know, NBCA, I think thought they were buying a
maybe they thought they were buying like a soft family show,
which is kind of how they promoted it because that's
sort of what DreamWorks had done. But then I had
all these like you know, ex. King of the Hill
(16:15):
and Family Guy Riders. We really went kind of for
a harder rage. That was one problem. The other real problem, though,
Jay is at about nine months into production of this
very expensive thing, Roy Horn was attacked on a stage
by a by a tiger, nearly killed. So that's a
little bit of a sure, and Jeffrey could not.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Come on incorporated into the show.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Well, in Jeffrey fashion, he tried. He basically, you know,
pleaded with a NBC executive, you got to keep this
thing going. This is helping keep Roy alive. We can
still do this and this is what Roy would want.
Those words were said, and I think it was true
actually because Roy was you know, kind of recovering, but
through his.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Screams of pain, he says, keep the cartoon alive.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
Basically in Germany, yeah, okay, don't be alone with.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
It.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
All culminated with me and John Pollock at the upfront
because the show stayed on the schedule and got on.
We spent a lot of money out and John and
I went to the upfronts in New York City and
were in the audience and they had, without really anybody
vetting it, they had DreamWorks that arranged for a video
of Roy and Zigfried together now ten months after the accident,
(17:41):
to say like, oh, you're you know Roy, this is fine.
Advertisers two thousand advertisers and Radio City Music all this
is okay to do this. And by the way, we
screened an episode of it and played very well. It
was funny. The show really was funny. And he and
he is huge. Jeff Zucker says, oh, here we go,
here's Rick Vanroy to tell you that this is okay.
So they did this pre type thing, huge screens, come
(18:03):
down to radis the musical, and he was not okay.
I mean, he's not okay, but.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
I can only imagine okay, basically injured. You know, he
was dragged off stage by a thousand pounds tiger by
his neck, and he was really not okay. And and
plus he's German to begin with, so we kind of
hard to understand to beginner. By the way, they were
lovely guys there and actually.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
They're really funny. Oh god. No, probably somewhere deep in
the ENDC archives, somebody has video could probably dredge that up.
I don't think anybody. Jeffrey's very good at like controlling
the message, so I'm sure he made it go away.
Uh he he was not, Okay, So John Pollack and
I had that unique thing of like the you know,
the air goes out of the room. Two thousand advertisers
are now like and we you know, I always choked
(18:47):
that if we had had if we had had big
briefcases on our lap that were open like at old
school atteshay cases, we would have closed them up click
and then excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me,
excuse me, like walk that way out of Radio City
Musical to get on a plane to go back to
obscurity and never to be heard from again. So that
failure that freed me up, because that came and crashed
(19:10):
and burned.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
You got freed up to do happy endings.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well no, so, father the pride died. This is two
thousand and four, and I did my very first supervising
a different a writer who had never made a pilot before,
which was a very talented guy who's gone onto a
huge career again, bigger than mine is Rodney Rothman, who
is now doing films and Spider Man, and he worked
with He was in the Judd Apatow world for a
long time and then did his own stuff. He had
(19:33):
Jump Street, Yeah exactly. He very He was a producer
on a lot of things. Get me to get him
to the Greek all that stuff. He had a sitcom
for NBC called Early Bird, which is based on a
book where he goes. He really did this lived in
his grandpa's is late grandpa's retirement condo in Florida, So
we had kind of a high school vibe, except it
(19:55):
was old people in a retirement community. And that's my
first job supervising and I liked it. Rodd it was
great to work with, and since then it was something like, oh,
I can do this. I think we got to work
with Paul Fieg, which was wonderful. It was a director
and I was like, oh, that could be a skill set.
I think coming out of Conan, I think one of
the things, in addition to failure is also some humility
because as the head writer of Conan, and I know
(20:17):
I'm jumping around. But no, no, But I got that
job about nine months into being there, And I think
it was partly because I wasn't the best writer. I
was a good writer and a funny writer, but I
was also good at like figuring out like how to
produce my pieces, make them come in on time, the
get it, make it happen. Pretty good with people, probably
pretty good with people like I. Always the joke I
(20:38):
always say is like, you know, like there would be
writers would be like, Oh, I had this incredible idea,
I wrote that sketch up. Great. Did you tell Bill
tell the prop guy that we need a mailbox full
of blood?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (20:48):
No, I forgot to let him know. So just let
Bill tell the prop guy know that we need a
mailbox full of blood for the sketch there wrote. So
I think I was good at like being that guy
in addition to like kind of you know. And there
was a there was an episode we did on the
Circle Line, and marsh McCall, our old pal, late great
marshallcall who hired me at that job at that show,
(21:08):
was sick and he couldn't be there, and I ended
up sort of stepping up and being like the head
writer for the day kind of as we did this
basically very ambitious live show, and I think Conan and
Jeff Ross, his producer, were like, you know, he's really
funny and he gets it, and so I think being
and I think part of that is now to this day,
like I don't assume I'm the funniest guy in the
(21:30):
room or have the right answer all the time.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
That's just that's just self knowledge knowledge. Yeah, because you
would agree absolutely everybody that's kind of that. That's that's
your that's your rep certainly not the funniest guy, not
the funniest guy the room. As a matter of fact,
you're here, That's what the other subject. What's it like
to be not the funniest guy there is? It's I
don't know what that's like.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's untarged territory. It's weird. And by the way, being
the showrunner who always has the answer, that can be
good if it's just your show and it's your baby,
and maybe if you're that kind of impresario whose strides
above it all, like this colossus, who is the one
who everybody answers to, and if you can execute and
get people to execute your vision, more power to you.
(22:10):
I've always been much more like, I'm really funny. I'm
gonna hire really funny people. I'm gonna hire Gail Learner
and Courtney Lily. Uh well actually they were already hired
on Blackish, but well, Corney Lily we hired anyway, or
or you know, Josh Bysel or whatever to great people
and let them do their jobs and let them do
their thing, and then also go like that joke or
your story fixed here is better than mine, right, and
(22:31):
I don't have it doesn't have to be my answer,
of course, and and so being a little bit of like,
but here's the mamility of the show.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
The humility of the showrunner is this, even when you
say that idea is better than mine, the blessing of
the idea that it's better than mine, that it goes
in the show makes it kind of your thing too.
It's like, yeah, of course it's a no win. It's
like a no lose situation, and you know, like, you know, hey,
we need a joke to get out this. The showrunner said,
(23:00):
well what about this? Oh fatam? The showrunner said it
it's great, And then or the show runner picked somebody
else's Oh what a he's for sure. The guy's a genius. Yes,
it's just the chair. I think a lot of it's
the chair and everybody wanting an answer from who's ever
in that chair?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I think that's true. There's a lot of it. But
you know what else it is too? I think it's
it's and I think the best show owners I have
I've seen and worked for and with. It's also taste,
like honestly right, it's like like choosing what's the thing
that makes the most sense and feels right and going
like I didn't come up with that, but but Jay did.
(23:34):
And that goes in even though damn it's it's not
getting and.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
I did personal taste.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
It's taste.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
It's taste knowing the tone of the show, like it
fits the show. It may not be even your thing,
but it's like on our show, we do it this way.
So here's the thing. So you're listening, you're good at listening,
you're funny and creative. We'll get to how that got
to show up somewhere from your background. It doesn't immediately
seem that you've become a stand up comedian and a
(24:02):
comedy writer.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
But okay, I have an answer for that. Yeah, what
is it. Well, my dad was funny, and he was
on some level, there's a performative aspect. Look, there is
a level of like he's got to write ten to
fifteen minutes of new material every Sunday, first sermon. And
I think we also, you know, I grew up in
the Golden Age, as did you of like all of
these incredible shows to watch and be influenced by, like
(24:25):
you know, Mayor Tyler Moore and the old Dick Van
Dyke Show and Andy Griffith and then All in the
Family and Sanford and Son and Good Times and then
the sketch shows that all of a sudden from Cale Burnett,
you know, then into Signent Live and a little later
Kids in the Hall SCTV huge. So you you know,
I was able to have that thing sort of like
a lot of people did, yeah and didn't become you, right,
(24:47):
So like what did my parents a huge shoutout? All right,
just as I gave my wife a shot big listeners
of the show.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
By the way, so oh yeah they're dead.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
They doesn't mean they're listening. They are listening. I think
I like to think that they here's a shout out
to them. We had no money my dad was episcopal priest.
My mom was a book editor, teacher then a book editor.
And I remember calling my parents and saying, Mom and Dad,
I'm thinking about it. I've had this experience. This is
maybe beginning of senior year, end of junior year or whatever,
and I'm thinking about applying to business school. And they
(25:25):
were like, oh, okay, oh sure, if that's something you know, yeah,
if that okay, No, that's great, that's great. I like
they got their mind reluctance, reluctance, reluctance. And then probably
three or four months later, and our mutual friend of
ours figures into this story, we can get to that.
I saw what I'd always been kept this. I'd acted
(25:46):
in high school and done a little bit of stuff
at Brown, but had gotten intimidated by the actory people.
So I hadn't done much, but I was still interested
in that stuff. I saw stand up comedy live the
first time in my life here in Los Angeles the
summer of nineteen. I said, I think I want to
try to do that. So three or four months later,
I called my parents. I said, I think I'm going
to start writing stuff and try my hand at stand
(26:07):
up comedy. And they were like, that's great, that makes
so much like literally I could almost hear them hang
up the phone agle like that makes so much more sense.
They were relieved. Wow, so how blessed. That's amazing. That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
What made you stop doing stand up and start writing?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
I did stand up all in. I started after college,
started in Boston to open mics, and I did it,
and that was my career. I kind of look at
my career as like a movement towards stand up, which
was writing discreete small amounts of material. Then about or
five years into that, I started working with a bunch
of comedy sketch people David Cross and John Benjamin and
(26:42):
Carrie Prussa and John Ennis and Lauren Dombrowski and all
really funny people who lean lantry up in Boston, David Waterman,
too many people to name a I'm going to forget somebody,
I apologize, But we were in this sketch group up
in Boston, and that was longer pieces of material. I
was writing sketches now and performing in them. And then
Conan was sketchy again. I wasn't a joke writer, a
monologue writer. On that was sketchy. Were finally writing half hours,
and I think I was I think the it was
(27:03):
a little bit the courage to put something down on
paper that was longer and also not my own thing right,
And I think that was another thing. The thing I
always say to young people starting out is like stand
up was good for me, and I helped me hone
my voice and I have relationships, and that helped me
get my first jobs that were meaningful. You know, people
who stepped up and said things to help me get
(27:24):
my job at Conan or I worked for John Stewart,
and that was through some stand up relationship friends, you know,
friends who stepped up and said nice things. But I
always say to younger writers that with stand up I
was I was in the right house with comedy with
stand up comedy, but I was knocking on the door
of the wrong room. And once I knocked on the
sort of like, hey, you know, you can write stuff
(27:45):
for other people and have it produced, whether it's sketches
that you cast other people in, or that stuff for
Conan or bits for Conan desk, piece of sketches, or
eventually like a half hour. That's where things took off.
And also were these sort of I think some emotional
intelligence I had from whatever, being the kid of a
minister and a book editor and having that radio station
(28:08):
experience in college where I ran something and knew how
to be kind of a leader. I was serviced so much.
My career took off once I started to like become
right for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Right, Right, Let's go back yes, Happy Endings, Yes, and
then go to blackest your Happy Endings.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yes, you're you're there.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You're helping David make his show.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Uh, Gor, how'd you ride that wave between between having
an idea and standing back and letting David.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
You know, get his voice heard. It kind of happened
organically and David will speak to this.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
He and I.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Actually, I think there's a happy end David will not
talk to me, or there's a Happy Endings podcast. We
actually talk about this that Casey Wilson and Adam Pally
have hosted and josh by Cell helped make happen. It's
great and I think we're on the first episode and
we talked about it. I think he was he was
a screenwriter, baby screenwriter. Had really he sold one idea,
I think, uh, but he had agents who sort of
(29:04):
set him up with Jamie Tartis and she's like, there's
something here with this guy. He's got an idea for
like a friends type show, but he was really not experienced.
I remember like when he and I were trying to
rewrite some sides during the pilot process because the sides
were not popping to doing the job. Sides are the
pages that actors have to audition with. Additionally, you know,
(29:25):
and they're usually from the script that you're shooting, so
we had I never do that, used different ones. Yes,
I've learned that tricks. I've learned that trick. Yes, because
at my first pilot I didn't do that, and by
the time I got to the table read carry Burke
was like nodded off at the exactly because they've heard
it a thousand So you write news sides, and the
news sides that you give the actress to audition with
(29:46):
should have who their character is, should have quite a.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Few jokes, maybe more jokes on their side. And because
the actors usually reading, we have the casting director make
sure the other person the scene has very little to
say and the other.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And I just don't want a long monologue for us.
Susan Vash even though she's still like.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
But then also I would also throw in some difficult
long speeches, and I would also make it maybe a
few tongue twisters.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And a few about some physical comedy, physical comedy for sure,
maybe make them pick up a thing awkwardly.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
See how they do. You know, all that stuff, all
the testing stuff, and that none of it's going in
the show, just for the fun.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Of the side.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
So David and I were writing some new sides and
he went he just was like, this is really hard,
Like he couldn't. It was hard for him to write
with somebody else. Maybe it was just me, but I
don't think so, because uh, actually maybe he's doing that.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Thing where you stand over him and look.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Physically and then just go. But we were writing together
and then it started to get easier, and then I
was like, Okay, we have a table read, we have
a series of table reads coming up. Let's bring in
some friends. So I brought in I think Josh by Cell, Prentice,
Penny Lee, Lastron, wonderful writers and who I remember getting that.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Oh no, you didn't say that's all right, that's all right.
I'm not I'm not still hurt.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Jesus No, But I knew inevitably would come to us. Yes,
he he was at first like I don't, I don't
know if I like and then it was like wait
a second, and then he brought in a friend of
his who was a funny comedian. And then he brought
in two wonderful, hilarious writers who are friends if his
were just starting out but actually had I think they've
been on Robot Chicken Daniel and Matthew Libban l I
(31:24):
b m a n super funny guys. They have a
new show out called Mister Throwback on Peacock plugging somebody
Else's show because they're great with Adam Paley and courage.
Everybody's watching it does have Steph Curry, so that's cool.
So he he brought those guys in and all of
a sudden he was like, oh wait, this rewrite of
our pilot script is getting funnier and I'm and I
(31:46):
taught him like how you incorporate people's ideas, how you
hold on to your ideas as needed, and like like say, like,
that's not really what we're going for. Try some things,
and I kind of like I got him used to
the idea of collaboration and being in a writer's room
and the power, the wonderful power and mystery of a
(32:07):
comedy writer's room. He kind of and now, but I
will say by episode he tried to rewrite because he
just thought he had to and he felt dutiful, like
there was a second episode that we had that wasn't
quite working, and he did read alone. He did a
rewrite alone over the weekend and brought it in and
then it didn't quite work and he was like, I
don't want to do that again. And from then on
he was If I talked to the other day about it,
(32:27):
we had, we had drinks on it. He was like,
he goes, I don't like not having two or three
other people help me on something. I love a writer's
room and I love I love and I think it's
about like how do you articulate a vision that you
can and know your characters pretty well, But I'll be
also open to letting other people shape your characters. Like
on Happy Endings, Alicia Cuthbert's character Alex was not who
(32:51):
turned out to be very funny and really a wonderful character.
She was not at all we like to say innocent,
but she was kind of a little bit played the
dumb character a little bit to some extent, or the
you know, the one who marches to the beat of
a different drummer. That was not in the pilot really
because she'd actually done the bad thing. She'd run away
from from our league guy at the altar had hurt him,
(33:11):
so she had a long distance. So like in the
second episode, we were working at it as a group,
you know, in the first season with the writing staff,
and Josh Biselo said, like, what if we make her
a little bit you know, goofy, you're a little off
or a little dumb or you know whatever, And that's
where that came from. And that was that was a
whole character that he informed just with kind of like
maybe we could use that in this show. Like I said,
everybody being so smart and fast all the time, she's
(33:32):
like a step behind it in a way is a
step ahead, you know, which is kind of what we
ended up coming up with. And and like you get
you create that with your staff, and I think David
saw the power of that and saw the power of
letting people into.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
The hard part about that. I think for a lot
of people, not for me. I grew up in a
very collaborative writing situation which was called dinner. But but honestly,
the hard part when you're running a show is is
having the the wherewithal the say politely, we're not doing that,
and that the know is the hardest hard. You know,
(34:05):
sometimes when somebody begins speaking that we're not going in
that direction, but you don't be rude to that person.
They're giving their creative juices there there, they're giving something,
so you want to hear them out to the right extent,
except it's getting late to the clock. You have to finish,
We're getting tired, and so you have to be able
to be strong enough to say to convey I think
(34:29):
you're a great writer, we're just not doing that. And
and if you're able to do that, that's sometimes it
becomes an overwhelming amount of work for some people.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
It's hard. It's hard. It's taxing to make those decisions
over and over, you know, making decisions and you're making
decisions all the time as a showrunner is really hard.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Don't be alone.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
So apparently Barack Obama, because he was aware of the tax,
the tax puts on your body and brain to make
decisions all the time, Apparently when he was present, would
limit the number of meaningless decisions he would have to make.
So he would have his clothes picked out for him.
He would never want to know like a lunch menu
or anything like that. And I would do that, try
(35:25):
to do that as a shower, like I don't care
what we get for lunch. I can't make that decision
because you're making the decisions. It does come at a
cost when you have to say to somebody like, as
you said, I love you, and I think that's interesting,
but we're not doing that. Also, I think it's good.
One way I found is reminding they're the writers who
pitch stuff that blows up a lot of stuff that
(35:46):
we've already kind of agreed on. So I would use
the expression we have dry land here, meaning this is
we already we got a beach out here. We don't
need to go back because if we did your pitch,
you realize that that would undo. And I've had even
writers I love, we'll name, but they will I've had
to go and then they go, oh, yeah, you're right,
you're right right. Thread pullers we call them thread pullers.
Uh in the room.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
There's some people I've worked with who are brilliant thread
pullers and they say they want they want the last
like we're going to the table read. It's like, let's
go back to the board and they start reoutlining the show's.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Like no, no, no, no, no, no no no, we
got that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
We're good, We're good. We're going to read something. We
need to fix this area, so let's fix this area first.
But some people just love ripping it apart and putting
it back together. I don't have that kind of energy. Well, listen,
we have not talked about Spring Awakening yet at all,
so I'm very concerned about that. Like, was it weird
getting naked on top of Liam Michelle or I'm I'm
(36:43):
confusing with the other one. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
That's We've been talking for a while about television comedy writing.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
So excited about the other Broadway Jonathan Groff, Oh g JJ,
what's my latest thing.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I've gotten from him? Yeah? I emailed him recently because
oh I actually finally saw we roll Along. Oh he
was fantastic. Guess one of the last protesians. Yes, emailed him.
He didn't get back to me.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
All right, So now it's we've heard what it's like
to be a co exec slast showrunner. Second in command,
and I appreciate that. I am going to try and
do my best to usurp you, okay, and be that
guy for other shows at some point.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Well failure, here's my other recommendation, come off of a
failed pilot. Okay, I can do that. Yes, so that
they've always come and asked me right after. Like I
coming into Blackish twenty fourteen, I had super written one
pilot of my own and supervised three other writers who
were wonderful. June, Diane Rayphiel, and kat Sie Wilson had
(37:40):
written something hilarious. I was supervising that two other things
and my own thing. None of them went and I
was the ABC. I was in a deal at ABC,
and they asked me, would you help out on Blackish? Well, lucky,
I loved the pilot. I didn't want to run another
show right away because I was coming off with happy endings.
But I think being being available, yeah, is definitely the
(38:02):
first step. And I and and I think they hit
you when you're a little bit on your back foot
of like a little bit on that one. By the way,
it was an incredible opportunity to get to work on Blackis.
Kenny has given me massive shit rightfully. When I was like, Gralf,
we had to fucking lean on you to do that job.
I was like, well, I just run happy endings. I
just coming off these four pilots that flopped. I needed
a minute to lick my wounds. I loved the show
(38:23):
and you from get go. But He's like, uh huh, yeah,
all we offered you was the opportunity to help me
run a lifetime and I realized that. Yeah, but uh,
you know being so that's that the failure part is,
that's how I handle that. Just fine. I got plenty
of failures.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Okay, that's uh, I'll get started, all right. So now
here's a question. This is from listener. This is called
listener mail.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Yeah, now it's time for listener man.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Can I ask quick questions? Sure, Charlie Cogan did he?
Did he do those? Charlie Cogan did all that? Yeah,
and for free. Charlie Cogan is Chase wonderfully talent, very
brilliant son.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
As concerts coming up all over Los Angeles, the coolest,
Dear Jay and Guest. I find the state of the
entertainment industry to be less original than it used to be.
These days, it seems like everything is a remake, a reboot,
a sequel or prequel, part of a huge franchise, or
based on a ride at Disneyland. How can the viewers
(39:23):
support truly unique films and television shows and hopefully give
them enough of an audience for people to make more
original content.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's a great question, and it's a great observation. I
agree to some extent obviously, like I think the feature
film industry is. I've heard people though talk about it.
Who was I was on some zoom with industry professional types.
I think it was Tom Asheim maybe who was saying,
like they've overplayed the studios have overplayed this sequel and
(39:52):
to the point where like they're realizing they can't do
it anymore only and that people want something else, which
is why something even though it's based on a toy
like Barbie or felt like original and fresh, or even Oppenheimer,
which is a biopic but still was different and not
the same old, same old. And I think you'll see
things like that in a big studio level, So support
those things. I do think there's always going to be
(40:14):
you just have to work a little harder and find
the you know, the things that that are were original
and funny that could be brought back and or get
or give those creators who made something original another chance
to make another something else interesting. I was just involved
with a really cool show. I was a non writing
executive producer of a show called This Fool on Hulu
created by Chris Estrada who starred in it, starred Frankie Knionis,
(40:37):
who was amazing and hilarious, Michael imperially and created by
Jake Wiseman, Matt Ingbertson and Pat Bishop and they were
like real funny, weirdo writer guys who did this hilarious
show on Comedy Central called Corporate and the show is
I didn't write it, so I can say this was
brilliantly interesting. Compelling shows on Hulu is really cool. So
I think there are those things out there. Maybe you
just don't look for those things there, like you know,
(41:02):
you have to look for those Like David Hemingson was
a friend of ours, was put on social media. So
I was touting a show called like Last Trip to
Yuma or something like that that just came out with
a small feature or this movie Thelma that just came out.
You have to like find the little things and go
to the art houses if you can, or go to
the niches of the recesses of Amazon and Netflix and
(41:25):
watch those things because they are on there. They buy everything.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, it's there. It's hard to support. I mean, does
my view my one view I account, and it doesn't
feel like those feels like those movies are forgotten. They're
on the streaming services, but they're left there to sort
of die. I know that they keep track of everybody
who watches, but it doesn't feel like they get the
support I understand.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
No, That's why I don't disagree with their assessment. I
do think there's always going to be then then, I mean,
this is sad to say, and it doesn't help us
with our job security, but find that stuff on YouTube
and TikTok that is entertaining, and then follow that creator
as they get he or she gets an opportunity to
do something else.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
I also think that the larger studios, they've been like
on a cocaine binge of reboots and remakes.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
And stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
And while while you're doing it, it seems great, dreams great,
but at a certain point you realize it's a problem
and now you have to change.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Well, you're eating the seed corn, like where's the next
thing coming from?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (42:21):
And and and it's also not working, like there's so
many things in the Marvel universe, and there's so many
things that the prequel and they're just taking shows that
no one heard of and rebooting them for no reason
other than their ip that somebody owns.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
It's insane.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
So that's not working as a policy.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I think.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
However, last year Barbie comes out, so it's like, Okay,
well there's.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
An ip that it's an ip, but it was done,
you know, so it's everything with this genius sort of
way of doing it by a by a auteur filmmaker,
to use the fancy word.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
And also a woman was involved, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
As a producer and as a yeah I know Greta Gerwig.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Was she involved at all?
Speaker 2 (43:01):
That is that was Barbie was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
And the Deadpool movie, which is a big hit right now, yes,
is really original and fun and fantastic. It just happens
to be a major motion picture that costs four hundred
million dollars but also was really smartly done fantastic.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I mean, I think, as you know, in the television
studio world, I always appreciated Sony television studios attitude because
they weren't the one studio that was not affiliated with
and still aren't a big network. So they were the
ones who figured out, and this is coming back ten
or twelve years, but the ones who figured out, like,
what if we hit some doubles and singles right, and
all of a sudden we get we hit a thing
that looks like a double, like breaking bad, and then
(43:39):
it turns into a monster thing. And they made they
took some more chances. And I think if people can
think like that of like less ten poly and more
like how do we hit a double that can endure
and then become something bigger, you know, as a series
for example.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
You know, all right, now it's time for a moment
of joy, a moment of joy. It can't be your kids,
it can't be your job, but what gives you joy
other than that?
Speaker 2 (44:07):
So the other day I this is probably a sign
of early mental degeneration. I had my bike had been
out in the garage for a long time. It had
been outside sometimes too, because our garage is actually like
a little guesthouse slash office, so it had been sitting
(44:28):
outside to not be in the way. And I was like, oh,
I'm sure the tires have been sun damaged. I hadn't
written it in a long time. I'm sure the tires
are sun damaged, and the seed is is definitely still
kind of dried out whatever. And I saw the gears
were messed up, and I was like, I'm going to
take it to my local bike short shop and get
it tuned up, get new tires on it. And then
(44:51):
I looked at it and I was like, oh, these
tires are actually brand new and the gears work perfectly.
I had done this exact act tune up four years ago, okay,
and it had never ridden it. Oh my god. I
like to hike all the time. I'm not a lump,
I do. I do exercise, but I hike in Griffith
Park mostly all the time. And and and me.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
I hike it all the time. Let's take a hike
someth I would love that. Okay, good, I'd never hike
through griff Park.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I would love to. Let's go, let's go, well'll hike
and then have lunch. Okay, let's do that. We'll make
that plan. But okay. So I so I looked at
my bike. I discovered work that I had done which
is always like a mitzvah, it's that's the right use
of that. Yes, absolutely, okay, And I was like, oh
my god, I already did this. So I just walked
the bike to the service station on the corner near
my house, put air in the tires, put my helmet on,
(45:38):
and went, this is last Sunday, went for this fantastic
bike ride down the La bike Path, La River bike Path,
which is you know, the La River is what it is.
But it was glorious and unknocked busy, and I was like,
and it was one of those just late afternoons summer,
like La is so beautiful that sometimes it's oppressive, Yes,
(45:58):
and it was, but it had turned the heat also
makes it a little impressive. But like it was just like, oh,
I am leaning into the beauty of Los Angeles and
serendipitously finding this bike ride that I didn't think I
was going to get to take today, right, And and
I just and riding bikes I find anyway is a
great It's definitely an old guy thing. It's definitely people
old dudes like get into it a lot, and they
(46:19):
have helmets and all that ship. But it's it's a
great speed at which to experience the world traffic.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Yes, but it's and by the way, Mitzvah, I may
have said incorrectly said it's the right. Mitzvah is something
that God commands, So that something. So if if that
would make God happy, So if reusing your bike is
something that would make God happy, that's.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Not really he doesn't care.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
That's I didn't use I tried it.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
I'm not Jewish, but I like love. I I I
love the Jewish people my moment of joy. Let me
tell you.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
I don't know if you know this story, but there's
a doctor Levenstein I used to have and he used
to grease up his thing. We're running out of time.
I'm for running out of time. So I want to
thank you for being here my pleasure. Even though you
weren't the Jonathan Graff I was expecting. I still think
that you're very talented and I can't wait to hear
your next album, so I'm very excited about that.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Thank you, Ja.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
I want to thank you the audience at home for
listening or watching or whatever you're doing. Thank you for
being here. Please share the show with somebody if you
like it, and also write me at dbawjk at gmail
dot com. If you have a comment or criticism or
a lovely question that I can ask my guest, I
would love it. And thanks for being here and I'll
(47:35):
see you next time.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Don't be alone with jj co
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