December 10, 2024 • 47 mins
Simon Rich talks about how writing fantastical stories can still be authentic and personal.we also talk about growing up in a family of writers, why SNL is not a pit of vipers, John Mulaney & Richard Kind being in his new play, bad driving, Mad Magazine and why Jay is responsible for Simon's career because he watched The Simpsons as a kid.
Bio: Simon Rich has written for “Saturday Night Live,” Pixar and “The Simpsons.” He is the creator and showrunner of “Man Seeking Woman” (FXX) and “Miracle Workers” (TBS), which he based on his books. His collections include GLORY DAYS, NEW TEETH, HITS AND MISSES, SPOILED BRATS and ANT FARM. He is a frequent contributor to The New Yorker.
Bio: Simon Rich has written for “Saturday Night Live,” Pixar and “The Simpsons.” He is the creator and showrunner of “Man Seeking Woman” (FXX) and “Miracle Workers” (TBS), which he based on his books. His collections include GLORY DAYS, NEW TEETH, HITS AND MISSES, SPOILED BRATS and ANT FARM. He is a frequent contributor to The New Yorker.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Strawhut Media. Hi, I'm Simon Rich and it's really my
honor and my privilege to be here on Don't Be
Alone with Jake Cogan, Don't Be Alone.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
With j j Cogan. Hi there, welcome to Don't Be
Alone with Jake Cogan. I'm Jake Cogan. That shouldn't be
a surprise you've tuned into Don't Be Along with Jake Cogan.
Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. The
show has been going like gangbusters. People love this show
and I'm thrilled. If you like this show, subscribe to it,
(00:41):
press like if there's a like button around you, or
write a review, or share it with somebody. The more
you share it with somebody, the more it gets around,
and the more compliments I get randomly from people from strangers.
And if I can find the love of strangers, then
I don't need my family. And that's really the goal
is to be able to make them obsolete. I want
(01:02):
to make my family obsolete, and you can help me
with this by liking Don't Be Alone with Jay Kogan,
So please do that today. We have a great show.
Simon Rich very talented writer, incredible funny guy, has written
some of the funniest things you've seen on State out Live.
He wrote Simpsons, He's written TV series, and he's written
(01:23):
an incredible book called Glory Days, which I loved so
much I really had to sit down and talk with
him about it. We'll also be talking about something that's
true to me, which is I tend to write when
I write, which isn't all the time because writing's hard,
But when I write, I tend to write things about
fantastical stories, stories that are not of my life. They're
(01:46):
not about you know, this guy who lives in la
and grew up in Encino, and they're not really autobiographical stories.
There are stories about characters that I think are interesting,
who are going through things in their lives that I
am going through in my life, or that the issues
are coming up in those characters, complicated histories that are
that rhyme with my history but aren't exactly my history.
(02:08):
I don't write about me anyway. We'll talk to Simon
about it. He writes short stories about fantastical things, and
they're fantastic, and they're interesting and they're sometimes heartfelt, and
I think that's legit. Should I be writing things that
are more autobiographical or is it okay to just write
things that I love and that are interesting to me
and that I think have meaning because they have meaning
in my life. And that's enough. We'll talk about it
(02:31):
with the great Simon rich don't be alone with j
So you watched my show?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I listened to it?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Did you you listen to it? Because I said I
want you on the show and he said, hey, here's examples. No.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I listened to it for the first time. I think
because Matt Greener saw it. I was like, Oh, I realized,
with shock, I had never actually listened to an in
depth interview with them right.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Well, he doesn't do them right. That's the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So that's that. And then I was like, oh, has
been on and has been on. So I've I've become
a fan of the show.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I've enjoyed your work a lot, and I've read your
other short stories book and I really thought fantastic and thanks.
You know, I don't know you from Adam. I don't
know anything about you except that you're really talented. And
and also so I've tried to learn. I've tried to learn. Well,
you'll tell me what I've got right and what I've
got wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, first, it means a lot to me because I
am a fan of your writing on The Simpsons crazier,
but also like not just not just an enormous fan,
but your episodes of the Simpsons are like absolutely formative
for me and were among the very first works of
art that I was ever obsessed with, So like the
first time, like actually like truly the first the first
(03:51):
U script that the first thing that's sort of like
approximates a script that I ever read in my life,
were a transcripts of some of your episodes wow, which
were published in like some kind of Simpsons you know,
cash grab sure, one of the many.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Some sort of some sort of let's cheat Jakogan out
of money publications.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
You certainly did make it, No, I know, I understand
when I was reading and like copying out the jokes
in the stage direct.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Interesting that this is true because your publicist gave me
a big hard time to get you. I had to
do a song and dance to pull you in.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Never talked to me.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I said, I said, well, you know it's there. It's
a wall. But it was a wall. But there were
people trying to save you. The trouble saying Simon doesn't
want to do it. I said, you might ask him.
I did the Simpsons. He I know he did the Simpsons.
We have that he worked Mad Magazine. My dad worked
for Mad Magazine.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So remind me.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Okay, So my dad's name is Arnie Cogan, right, I know.
He was one of the usual gang of idiots. And
he started working in the nineteen sixties and continued working
up until like three years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So he wrote some of your favorite uh the parodies
of things?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And so did you grow up knowing like William Gaines?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And I did know William gains He gave me a
nice permits for gift.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, no, he did very nice. I know some of
those Some of those people, I mean, my favorite of
them all is Sergio Ergonis is my favorite of them all,
just on a personal basis and also just an artistic basis.
I'm just a huge, huge fan. But he's just a sweetheart,
genius who I love. But I mean, my dad. Many
of them are dead people who came up with my dad. Magazine,
(05:30):
and I think the magazine may be dead. I'm not
exactly sure.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I think it is dead, but I wrote for it
as as recently as like maybe five years ago, like
I think it went away and came back and under
different leaderships over the yere.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So you have like this nerd checklist of things that
you wanted to do, this dream, nerd dreams that you've done.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Well, my dream was to be on this podcast. So
I was like, someday there's going to be this thing
called podcast. One of them is going to do this,
And so I had to.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Say, you're like a precog Nerd who knows things in
the few. That's really great. But no, you the Simpsons,
like you did a guest episode of The Simpsons? Is
that what happened? How did that work out?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Like?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I don't know. It's a Harvard connection.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Go ahead, I'll have you know that my way into
the writer's room was through a graduate of Brown. Okay,
so you know who Ian Max Stungle. Yeah, so Ian
was who your listeners probably do know this long time
Simpsons writer legends there for I think seventeen seasons. Sure,
it's pretty tall, extremely tall. In fact, the character of
(06:30):
the very tall man I've heard is based on him.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Could be true. I don't know, That's what I long
after I left.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So I'm brilliant, brilliant writer, incredibly sweet guy, and he
was a writer producer on the show I created called
Man Seeking Woman. Sure, and I just one of the
reasons I hired him was obviously his incredible work for
The Simpsons, my favorite television show. And I basically when
he was working for me, I just pressured him into
introducing me to Selman right exactly, so I could pitch
(06:58):
him ideas. It was always my dream to write for.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
The Sentence growing up. And how was that experience?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I thrill it? Okay, it was great. I mean it
was like fantasy camp. It was like, you know, it's
like one of those where you get to put on
a guitar and play on a stage, sing backup for
Springsteen or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It's I mean, it's They're hard. They're hard sometimes to write,
especially you know season one thousand, yeah, where they've done
everything well.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
When I went in to pitch the episode ideas to
to Matt Craney, I was nervous that I would pitch
something that they had already done, and so so I
prefaced it by saying, like, look, I just want I
don't want to offend everybody at anybody, and you should know.
I've only seen six hundred episodes in right, not less
than eighty percent or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Right, But it's it's but they've done everything, so it
doesn't matter what you've done. You just got to find
the new twist on the same old thing.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yes, the thing that Granning said to me. And by
the way, I did not know he was going to
be there, m hm when I was.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
He didn't know either, I'm sure not until he showed
up that day.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That's it. And so h but they're like, well, since
he's here, you pitched to him because he's you know,
right and nominally in charge, okay, And so I sat
across from him and he said to me, the chair,
I'm so happy we're talking because you could actually like
tell me if this is real or just like a
bizarre power move. He said, The chair that you're sitting
(08:19):
in is the chair I was sitting in when I
pitched the Simpsons.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Were you in that little chateau building.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
That has the movie banners on top?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah probably?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
How does that make sense? But how why would he
be pitching.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Because Jim's office is in there? And then they went
into Jim's office. That's kind of probably somewhere near Jim's
office or the room, the conference room near Gym's.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Office, and I was just small talk. Yeah, he wasn't
trying to like get under my skin and.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Maybe probably not. Yeah, I guess knowing Matt, I don't
think he had any interest in getting under your gut yet,
but it could have been. But I mean, that story
is still amazing. That story is like, that's that's what
all of show business should be, which is you come
in to do one thing and they say and you'd
say no, and then you say, but I'm going to
give you this other thing yes, and it turns into
a billion dollar industry. Yes, that's fantastic. That's what I
(09:06):
want to do.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I want to walk into a room with one bad
idea and they say no, and then on my feet
think of something else and they go okay, and then
have that be the thing that gets my great great
great great grandchildren on yachts. Yeah, you know that's the
most important thing. But oh, that was good. So you
pitched to him. Now, the thing about the Simpsons is
you have to you have to gather up support from
(09:27):
Matt Graining, but also from Jim Brooks and also from
Matt Selman and also I don't know if kind of
from from Al Jean a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So I got to basically do a Selman episode. Okay,
so he was like the showrunner that he was my boss.
So I met Al a couple of times, but but
I was really working for Matt, so I would run
every outline, every draft by him and a few of
his likes.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, that's good, that's great.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But I did get to go to like the table reading,
but I got to go to a couple of rewrite sessions,
so I yeah, it was very much. It was very
sweet of them to kind of like let me have
the illusion of participations.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Well, you did participate. You wrote an episode, you wrote
a first draft. I'm sure you wrote an outline. I'm
sure you did all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
It was a thrill.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And what percentage of your work remained? Ah, would you
say maybe half? That's fantastic. That's a huge That's that
is a grand slam walk off home run. Fifty percent
of your stuff stayed. You can do no better.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's great. I'm thrilled to no better.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
That's that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Definitely, the best few jokes were not mine.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, No, it's a group effort.
I mean that all things are a group effort. So
that's that's fine. Well, I mean maybe not your books.
Your books may not be a group effort, but maybe
they are. I don't know how many I wish they were.
You have editors and people. Does does your wife's a writer? Yes?
Does she read your stuff before it gets Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I write. I write these short story collections, and I
the way I what I do is I basically write
like twice as many stories as will ultimately be in
the book, and then I kind of show them to
the finished drafts to like editors, I show them to
the New Yorker, I show them to my age, and
I show them to my wife. I show them to
(11:10):
a couple of like trusted friends, and I basically.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Say, which is the good one?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, what are your favorites? And they'll usually be like
a consensus, and then I just kind of cut the
other one. Did you rather than try to fix them?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And glory days? Did you have a theme going in
or did you just write a bunch of stories and
then find the theme at the end of all? The
picked the favorite short stories. These are the what's the
theme that runs through them to create a theme.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
They all all my collections have sort of like a
loose theme, and it's pretty organic because I just kind
of write stories that are about what I'm going through
in my life and there so it's, yeah, when I
had my first child, it's sort of very predictable. But
then yeah, we're going to write a book about parenting,
and this one is about turning forty. And what happens
(11:58):
is I basically write. Once I've got three or four stories,
I sort of start to realize what the book is
going to be about, and then I consciously try to
make it more thematically. It's great link, but yeah, like
the first one for this collection is a story called Mario,
which was I saw on my phone the fortieth anniversary
(12:19):
of Super Mario the video game, and I said, oh,
Mario's turning forty.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Right, just like you, just like me.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I was like, there's definitely a story there, and so
it's that's a story written.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I felt sad for Mario. You had a lot of
trouble back issues, money issues. The girl he was pursuing
is not somebody he truly loved.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, the princess and him have an extremely toxic relationship.
He accuses her of getting kidnapped by Coopa's on purpose. Yeah,
I know, which is you know, cheating. Yeah, a hard
thing to come back from in a relationship, right.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And Luigi, Luigi's doing kind Luigi's doing better. So yeah,
and the story you find out that Luigi finally got
sober and he which is great because he was going
to die. And uh, but he's married to this guy
Kiwami who's like very polite and rich but just so
boring that he's constantly getting on Mario's case to to
to redo his resume because Mario is really too old
(13:13):
to be in the rescue business anymore. He's got horrific
arthritis from you know, smashing the bricks with his face
for his entire very hard y. Yeah, and it's just
at four, you can't really pursue that long term.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
And the whole plumbing thing it's gone by the wayside,
I mean, the whole.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
It's all he's got though, it's his only other it's
only thing on skill you could put on a CV.
So Kawami is like, you know, telling him how to
you know, how to write the resume and and and
uh uh it's just it's a bad scene.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, no, you're The stories were fantastic, and some of
them were heartfelt. In other words, I was I read
it to laugh, but I was moved by some of them.
Like the participation trophy story I thought was beautiful, thank you,
like ultimately and there's like and I didn't expect it
to be beautiful and it was beautiful. I feel like, uh,
(14:07):
the tooth Fairy, I wasn't moved by the Tooth Fairy
so much, but I was like, I understand, I understood
what the tooth Fairy was going through, and I was
like really happy when uh when when I read the
Mario one, the Goliath one is hysterical. I mean it's
it's it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Thank you so much. Yeah, the Gliath one is it's
just the David and Goliath story. From the perspective of Goliath,
David is the world's first underdog. He sort of depicted
in the story as a kind of like Justin Bieber
like figure just in the in the first press conference
of all time. Uh, David just dominates. He says, you know,
(14:45):
he says, really, you know, the the pray, all the
praise should go to my mother. You know, being a
single mother is no joke if you ask me, She's
the real, She's the real, ultimate death fighter applauds and Goliath. Meanwhile,
just you know, he's broke, he's divorced, and he he
just needs to get endorsements to keep his daughter in
private school.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And David in the story is a little douchey. David
really is a little douchey.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
He's very confident for someone who has never fought.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, especially a giant who could rip his spine out.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, that's the glass move. As he rips people's spines
out in a single motion, it's impossible to defend against him.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Right, and he takes I mean, I don't want to
spoil it for anybody, but he takes an interesting turn
at the end. Yes, and I and I appreciate that.
Don't be alone with. One of the other ones that
(15:46):
moved me oddly was the story like We're not We're
not so different You and I, which is all about
male friendship, yeah at a certain age, And it's fantastic,
Thank you, thanks again. It's about a super villain trying
to make friends.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah. The opening scene is the scene you've seen in
every superhero movie for fifty Years, which is Death Skull
has Ultraman in chains and you know, over a that
of toxic waste, and he says to him, you know,
we're not so different, you and I, and Ultraman's like,
we're prettely right, opposites actually having good You're evil, like
(16:24):
nothing in common. And then it cuts to death Skull
at home with his wife Jackie, and she's like, so,
are you guys gonna how to go? Are you going
to hang out?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
You know?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And you find out that that was him fishing for
essentially an adult play date, right, And he's this middle
aged dude who has been meguomaniacally focused on his career
and has not really prioritized relationships and as a result,
like Jackie's going to girls' nights like three times a week,
she's got friends from work, she's got friends from book club,
(16:55):
and death Skull is just alone drinking in his den.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
You know, hanging out and the girls when they're over.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Bugging the girls a lot. Yeah, trying to be part
of their bachelor atte every.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Man even though he's a supervillain. This is every man's story. Yeah,
and I and I appreciated.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
That well, it's all you know, it's all just but
it's all from the Simpsons. Yeah, I mean I feel
like every single thing I do, there's certain like obviously
it's pros. So there are certain writing writing things I
do that are ripping off prose writers that I love.
But on like a tonal level and a story level,
and certainly on a premise level, it is just I
(17:30):
see it as straight up Simpsons plagiarism.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So let me challenge this because one of the whole
premise of the show don't be Alone with Ja Cocon
is that bring really smart people into help me my problems.
And here's the problem I have as a writer and
as a which is I like doing stories that are
about fantastical, interesting people or situations that I'm not. I
(17:54):
write about mop bosses and about people billionaires and what
I don't necessarily about me. But I'm always putting pieces
of my life and things I care about in it. Yeah,
but I'm always told by people, sometimes executives, who want
what I want, your authentic story. I want to hear
your life, your story. My life is boring. I don't
(18:16):
think I would make a good movie or TV show. Well,
you know, you're afraid you're afraid to put your life
down on paper. I said, I don't think I'm afraid.
I think I am trying to keep things lively and
interesting and make something that i'd want to watch. And
I don't think i'd want to watch something about me.
So I pose to you, are we afraid of revealing
(18:38):
our lives? Are we afraid of putting it all out
on the table because it's because it's just too intimate?
Or are we saving an audience boredom by not revealing
our lives?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, have you ever tried? Because I because like that's
the question is like, like, because I personally when I
was growing up, the umber one comedy writer in pros
by far was David Stares, and it was not close.
So when I was, you know, a teenager writing you know,
hopefully funny things their magazines, the response was constantly okay,
(19:15):
like this is pretty funny, but like can you write
exactly though, like David Sidaris, Right, well, no, I don't
really do that, but of course, like at the age
of nineteen, you say, I'll try, right, And And what
I found at a very early age is when I
was writing stories that were literally about things that had
happened in my own life. Not only were they boring
(19:38):
because my wife was boring, especially compared to Snaris are
they I couldn't write about them with any kind of
emotional honesty or authenticity, So they were actually way less emotional.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Okay, So that kind of goes to the point where
you're distancing yourself a little bit from the thing because
it is your life.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It is a weird yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
You don't have a you don't have perspective, But by
do you want to keep some of that experience to
yourself in this particular way.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, it's a historic participation trophy, is a very confessional, emotional,
autobiographical piece, but it's not written from my perspective, and
that's the story. It's told from the perspective of a
Like many millennials, I grew up winning a lot of
participation trophies, which I at the time valued and only
(20:26):
realized later on we're worthless. And so I wanted to
write a story kind of about careerism and what it
means to win and lose and all that stuff, sort
of midlife re examination of lunch Piers. So I said, well,
(20:47):
I'm gonna write a story from the point of view
of a participation trophy that I won at a field
day in you know, nineteen ninety two. And so it's
a letter addressed to me from this inert piece of plastic.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
It's a moving story.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And it's like thank you's, and the trophy is basically
tells my life story from the from its point of view,
and it's written as kind of like a love letter
to the one who got away. This trophy really missus man,
of course, but it's so it's ridiculous and surreal, but
it is way more emotionally honest, I think than I've
(21:25):
ever been. And that includes like journals that I kept
as a teenager, you know, in my childhood bedroom.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well, as I was starting my writing career, I was
around other people who were starting their writing careers, and
I noticed that almost everyone who wanted to be a
screenwriter was writing a screenplay about a screenwriter trying to
write this first screenplay. Like and it was like, this
is horrible. Do not write your screenplay about a screenwriter
writing his first screenplay. That is, it's a kiss of death.
(21:55):
I already knew at seventeen.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
The only exception to that because I generally but every
rule there except sure, Stephen King. Sure, who writes about
a lot of horror writers and that's always mostly awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But yes, I agree, Stephen King is the exception to
all rules. It's true, and he can write anything anytime,
anywhere and it'd be great. But it's it's interesting, like
to me, I would much rather write about that struggle
to write that first screenplay and change screenplay to bank
robbery and change, you know, do do to put the
same emotion into something else and then explore it from
(22:32):
a different point of view. It's easier for me, and
maybe it's a deficiency in my psychological makeup.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
In the history of music, it's very cyclical, you know,
like what's is Rogers and hard Rodgers and Hammerstein moving
music or is it kind of like is it less
authentic than you know, Bob Dylan, Because Bob Dylan he's
not only did he write it, but he is singing
(23:00):
it and playing it to you. You know, it cycles
back and forth and then it's it's like what's it
depends on who you're asking and what the marketing department
is telling you.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
You know, the Girshwers wrote some pretty great.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Songs I would describe Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And bob Bylan wrote some pretty great songs, and now
was Costella wrote some pretty great songs, and yeah, you know,
yeah Bell Eilish is writing some nice songs. So it's like,
you know, there's lots of good art out there, and
not all of it is is even bob Byllan try
to Yes, he's writing about his life, but it's so
packed through metaphor and poetry and like try to decipher it.
You can't. It's a million things to a million people.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, yeah, there there is that thing of like the
confessional stand up comedian or the confessional singer songwriter who's
writing about their actual relationships, which is very powerful to
some people. And then there's also you know, I would
I would argue that like the like Pixar movies are
very moving and emotionally authentic, and the people writing them
(23:58):
are not literally fish.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Right right right, and they and they may not literally
have a lot of emotions either, because you know they're
working for Pixar. But what was your experience at Pixar?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Like it was great, it was, it was sort of
it was maybe a little bit like writing for The
Simpsons in that it's or at least like being a
staff writer on an animated sitcom, Right, I think the
hours were much better.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
But they but they rip it all up, right. I
mean they take a story, they perfect it, they hone it,
they perfect it, and then they rip it apart. That's
what something else.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, that's what felt similar. And and and Pete Doctor,
basically the director of the movie is essentially that you're
working for is essentially the showrunner. Right, So like Pete Doctor,
and it was my boss. And it was very much
like being a staff writer on a sitcom with Pete
as the show runner. Right. And the movie I worked
on mostly there was was inside out, and it was
(24:51):
very much like, yeah, an iterative process. You get it
into animatics, you test it. Certain parts are working, certain
parts are not. And the reason the movies are so
expect is because sometimes the move they'll have a version
of the movie that is like pretty good, and most
studios would be like, all right, yeah, release it, and
Pisar will be like, eh, not quite, not quite, let's
let's kick the We'll release it two years later and
(25:11):
spend another eighty million dollars to get it from a
B to an A.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah. Those they might not been doing that so much anymore.
I don't know. Money seems to be the bottom line
seems to be mattering a lot more. Do you see
inside out too? How they ruined your work? That's great?
Inside out too?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh my god, it's great. I think I think Pete
has done a wonderful job, and I think the movies
are are fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah you have to say that, that's that's true. But yeah,
but I do mean it. As you get older, yeah,
you're you look twelve but you're forty. Yes, okay, so
how does let's talk about that? You know you look young?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, it runs in my family. It's very it's
a it's a I don't know if there's like a
genetic term for it, but my my grandfather was arrested
on a train in nineteen forty five. He had just
finished his military service. He was a non combatant but
had a high rank. He had, you know, done a
(26:08):
really good job at you know, supervising warehouses in India,
and he was wearing his medals and yeah, they were
arrested him for impersonation.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
So okay, so you've had this history of this with genetically.
As you get older, do you feel you're getting more
comfortable like the participation trophy, getting deeper into your own
psyche and your own truth and your own thing. Do
you think you'll ever get close to writing something that's
much closer to autobiographical?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
You know, Well, it's interesting. I've always seen my work
as I've always seen my short stories as extremely autobiographical, and.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I feel that way about the weird stuff I write too,
But people tell me it's not You're hiding behind you know,
a concept or a big, you know, big premise. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Like, I wrote a story called is It Just Me,
which is about a guy who in his twenties and
he finds out that his ex girlfriend is is dating
somebody new and and he's not over her at all,
but she obviously is over him because she's dating this
guy who happens to be really rich and he's older,
(27:18):
and he's especially upset when he finds out that it's
Adolf Hitler. In the story, you are in his one
hundred and thirty seven years old. He's been you know,
in hiding under under his assumed name in Buenos Aires
since the forties. And it's really annoying because.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
That became part of your TV.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, the first episode based on that story and his
friends are like, you know, you just don't like him
because he's dating Maggie. Like he's like cool, he's he's
got great story. And also like it's like his party
and he bought all his food, he's catered, and it's like,
you know, like maybe the chill out a little and
he just gets wasted and it ends up with him
(27:57):
having to apologize to Hitler. And that's a story I
wrote when I was, you know, after being dumped, right,
and that was the that was born of an extremely
emotional experience for me.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
And no, it's real, it's visceral, it's real. But I
think that at least over the last ten years or so,
writers are being judged by how their life experience is
literally the life experience of the thing they're writing, especially
when you're being pitching a movie or a TV show.
Like if you say, like, well, why are you the
one to write this story of the you know, gangsters
(28:33):
or what's your experience? Well, I don't have any, but yeah,
you know, I've seen a lot of movies and read
some books. That's not good enough. If you say this
is my story, that's part of the sale now.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
But what you all you have to do though, is
then say we'll just say the actor wrote it.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I do. Yeah, you don't do that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
No, oh you just say that you said, just will
say the actor improvised it, right, or you know, the
actor showed up with you.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Sometimes I just lie straight out and say, yes, that's
my story. I'll say that I have this experience. Yes,
Chinese immigrants, Chinese immigrants, It's like second nature to me.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I wanted to be whoever the most famous person is
involved there. They they wrote, it's their story, and the
best looking, most famous person should always be just marketed
as the writer.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Saying that Nicole Kidman wrote everything I wrote. Maybe I should.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I think I try.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I'll try. Don't be alone with as recording this. You
(29:49):
have a play of short stories that are then becoming
a play at the Hudson Theater.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm really excited about it.
It's rotating cast really talented people and including my friend
John Laney. Sure, Fred Armissen, Richard k You're kind of course.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
We will be you know that. Something I can tell
you already is Richard Kine will be wonderful. He will
be great.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's what's great about it is it's like some of
these actors are are extremely talented, and also I hear
them in my head sometimes anyway when I'm writing fiction,
and so to have them perform it on the stage,
it's just really cool, fantastic. Yeah, Richard Kind I got
to because of Inside Out. He's being boxed so and
(30:37):
he was also in the show I You.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Killed him in that I know.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
He did kill him. And then but then I cast
him as God on a show on Man Seeking Woman
and he was so funny. So I've been a fan
of his for years and I can't wait to see
him do that.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
He is great. If you ever go back to in
the archives of this show, he does a great Don't
be a one with Jay Cogan. There is a mussy
Oh my god. She talks about how important confidence is, yes,
and he exudes it. It's very very worth watching. Yeah,
but was that ever a dream Broadway play?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah? So I I did a BBC radio show for
a few years. There's three seasons on BBC four and
it was just actors over in London performing my stories
in front in front of a live audience, and it
was a really fun experience. It was actors like Peter
Sarah Finovitz and like Jamie Dimitriu from Fleabag and other shows,
(31:34):
and it was the first time I'd really heard actors
just like perform the stories in front of an audience.
And and what's also great is you can use music
and folly and all that stuff. And I just always
thought it would be cool to try it in the
United States.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
We're ready. I think the United States is ready.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
We can we can handle it, except and then but
I didn't know. I had no idea how to do
it like visually, and so that was sort of what
was holding you back because I was like, well, what would.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It actually look like?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Though? And then Alex Timbers, this brilliant theater director who
does like very visually spectacular stuff like Mulan Rouge and Beetlejuice,
he was like he approached me and said, you know,
would you want to do a show? And I was like, yes,
if you can figure out how the thing looks what
they're doing up.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
There, and he could, okay, and he has.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So that's I've always been very reliant on directors for
all of my adaptations. So like my TV shows Miracle Workers,
the pilot was directed by Yorma Taconi from A Lonely
Island and then John Kreisel directed the pilot for Man
Seeking Women. They're both like very much responsible for how
(32:48):
those shows look, and I think, honestly, like with my adaptations,
I feel like if we're left to me, they would
look almost like Radio Place.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Right. Are you getting better at visualization the more you do?
No worse? Wow?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Because I think it's one of those things you just
need to keep up with how things look. You need
to really love it.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
I get Pixar all those cal arts, you know, right,
they're drawing constantly, they're watching things constantly if you just
and they're and they're parodying whatever is like in the
visual zeitgeist. If you walk down a hall at Pixar,
you'll see paste it on the wall, like caricatures of
every popular movie that's out there right now. But they're
also being influenced by it, and they're just like so
(33:33):
on the cutting edge of how things look. And you
don't do that if it's homework. You do it because
you love it.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So you've helped me feel better about my lack of
courage to write my own personal autobiography. Although the story
of a young man in Encino coming of age. Well,
his father wrote for Mad Magazine and The carabur Neet
Show and then brave the waters of Ucla to find
his way into Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
It feels like it feels like the follow up to
Baby Reindeer.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
That exactly Netflix. So the needs the real challenge. I
had some real challenges. They wouldn't let me stay at
a dormant you cla, how about that I live at home.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I didn't get at least two episodes out of that.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I appreciate all this. We're going to move on to
our next segment is question. This is from Will who says,
what's the sn L sketch he stands by that didn't
make it on the air or didn't make it out
of the read through?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Great question, Okay, what is the one? Can I count
ones that got cut? And then when Mulaney came back
and hosted, he was than he was famous enough to
insist that we put it on the show.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Right, So is the jimp Judge one of those?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
No, that's it, that's a new Yeah, we wrote that
is an original sketch. We wrote monkey Judge. But when
whenever he goes back to host we we basically look
through our list of sketches we're most aggrieved.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
What was the aggrieved one that you saved from the pile?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Switcheroo. So Switcheroo is a sitcom family sitcom from the
eighties which has this sort of classic premise of a
dad switching son, which we've seen, you know, various iterations
of that Freaky Friday premise, so it's one of those.
And then the twist on is that this this show,
(35:35):
in order to be as truthful as possible about what
the switcheroo would mean, the son has to have sex
with the mom, right.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Because she doesn't know the switcheroo has happened. So to
keep the secret alive, he has to act like a husband.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, and the catchy theme song, which we're very proud of, goes,
son goes to work, Dad goes to school, and the
son has sex with the mom.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
So we could not get that over the goal line
until Laney had like three number one specials on Netflix
and then I was like, oh, okay, we can touch
that switch th So yeah, we had a feel like that. Also,
Toilet death Ejector Okay was another one that that and
I just say we wrote these with with Marika Sawyer.
There the three of us wrote these in our early
(36:22):
twenties and toilet Toilet Death Jagger were very proud of
and it's basically, there's nothing more embarrassing as a as
an old person to be discovered dead on the toilet.
So it's every it's every elderly person's worst nightmare. So
what what this product does is if you're on the
toilet and you feel yourself dying, you press a button
(36:42):
and it flings your body away from the toilet to
your bed right and then once sort of the toilet
flushes behind you like a puff of like lavender mist
is spraying. And then also we're very proud of this.
A smart to book drops from a from a compartment
(37:03):
on the ceiling and lands on your reading. It looks
like you were doing something smart, right, And you can
choose between the Bible How to Win Friends and Influence people,
or or Latest Gladwell, oh fantastic. And based on you know,
your your your demographic, you can pick which one. And again, yeah,
I've seen Blany had to get pretty famous for us.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I've seen every SEC, I've seen every Saturday Lives. Wait, really,
I've seen every Settle.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
You've seen every Serurny Night.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
I've seen every Saturday in the Live.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, it's a problem. I've seen every single It's incredible,
fifty years of worth of Setate alive, from the first
one to amazing. Yeah, I don't even the worst years.
I've seen them all.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I don't remember everything, but I remember a lot of them.
But I was such a huge fan. It's such an
important part of my life. And it's sort of like
one of them. I've never tried to work there because
I think it would ruin it. But it was always
the Zeitgeistavida was always important to me and still is.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Have you seen every Simpsons?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I have not seen every since Okay? Yeah, And because
one of the things about if you know how the
sausage is made, you don't necessarily like everything. I've seen
a lot of Simpsons, and all the Simpsons I've seen
since i've left are great.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah. I think that sn L is better than it
was when I was there. Yeah, I think I think
the the writing is better.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
SNL is the same always, which is three good sketches.
You've got one of the best shows. It's like three
great sketches make the show and it's fantastic. So I
don't know, but I'm I'm so when you mentioned all
the sketches, and I remember every one of them and
and I love them and they're great. So congratulations. Mister
(38:41):
Catman writes, what gives them the right to be so
fucking talented?
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, so that gives you the right?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
That's very sweet.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You're not answering the question. Okay, thank you, Mitch, And
but what gives you the right to be so talented?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
What gives me the right? How would you answer that question?
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
I would say I I don't have the right to
be talented. I think you're mistaking my talent for the
talent of the many people I've worked with.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Good can we run it back?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
And no, No, we're stuck with that. We're stuck with
your sociological sort of name marrish selfishness. It's all out
there now now everybody knows. Look at look at you.
Know you're all about you, You're all about you. Bryson writes,
will your new show be reviewed by your dad? Oh?
Speaker 1 (39:28):
My play?
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I hope so, okay, I mean that would be much What.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Do you panded, what are you panded?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
It would be it would be excellent karmic retribution if
my play got panned at the New York Time. I
mean my father when he was a theater critic. His
nickname was the Butcher of Broadway, sure, because he panned
so many shows and closed them, often often that night.
So the power of the New York Times was such
(39:59):
in the nineteen eighties that he would write a devastating
review and the play would just close. So like, if
anyone deserves to have their shows, it's his son. Yeah
there's any justice, if there's any guy, there's any Yeah,
we'll see any Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, we'll see Carlos writes, you grew up in New
York and now live in Los Angeles. I've never heard
anyone make humorous comparisons between the two cities. I'm wondering
if Simon has any thoughts.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I can't think of yees a single bit about that.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Is it Was it a weird adjustment coming to LA
or is it just fine?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
People are way less into reading. It's something I've noticed
in versus New York. I would say that the amount
of credit that you get in LA for for having
read a book is exactly equivalent to the amount of
credit you would get in New York for having written
that same book. So if you were like I read
I read this Malcolm, I read a Malcolm Gladwell book
(40:52):
at the airport, it would be like saying a dinner
party in Park Slope like I am Malcolm Gladwell equally impressive.
You know, it's just a difference. But that doesn't mean
But I think in terms of creativity and talent. To me,
the most the most impressive people I've met are they
all live in la just illiterate, but they're fantastic, but
(41:14):
they're extremely funny and witty.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And my people, we don't read. We do we do?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And now this is time for a listener mail. Now
it's time for listener man. This is a letter written
into me not knowing you'd be the guests. So it's
a dear Jay and guest. I'm looking to find it
an achievable goal. What's the quality of you you've worked
on that has truly gotten better over time? And what
(41:45):
do you want to work on now? How much progress
counts the success?
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So I because I am from New York, late to
drive in so when I grew up. My parents did
not ever own a car.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Didn't need it.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah, I didn't need it. You used to take to
take the subway. You take a cab if you were
in a hurry. And that's that was the situation. And
then in my thirties I've had I had to learn
how to drive, and I am a very like timid driver.
I don't have a great sense of like how to
communicate with other drivers on the road.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I failed, which is odd because you know, such an
aggressive person. So weird how you're not like the aggressive
driver exactly.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, you wouldn't think it. And I failed to test
like twice before passing it. And I thought an achievable
goal would just be to you know, get to a
level of just like competence and safety for my for
my sake and my family's sake. And then I realized
I didn't have to do that. What I what I
could do was and this is an amazing trick and
(42:44):
I probably shouldn't be reallying this, but it's just too
good to I put a student driver bumper.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Sticker on the nice carne.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So people know I'm bad.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
So people forgive you for your bad driver and they
avoid me.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yeah, they know what they It's an honest, simple, legible
way to communicate. Stay out of my way. I suck
at driving.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Okay, so but do you really suck? Yeah, you're really bad.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah yeah, And this sticker has made all the difference.
So I would say to this listener, it's not about
getting presd No, figure out a hack, a hack so
that it becomes other people's problem.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Okay, excellent. So you're wasting your time trying to improve
your life and get better at something. So no amount
of success is success. Success is tricking other people, just
lie lying. Okay, Well, there you have it. There you
have it. Uh, now it's time for the moment of joy.
A moment of joy.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
So I thought about what I was going to pick
because I know this, I'm a listener, are a fan
of the show. Thought well, maybe I'll say something like
really like beautiful or you know, or something about like my.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Children, yeah you can't talk, daughters are at the table.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Right, Because I was like, oh, that's maing. We seem
more human and likable. And I was like, I'm just
gonna be honest and say, like, what actually brings me
the most pleasure in life? And it is a show
called Killer Karaoke Stevo, which is a remake of a
Japanese game show. I don't know how many episodes they
aired before canceling it in the States. I think it
(44:09):
was it was on like maybe like Fuse. It was
on one of those cable channels at the height of
the bubble.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
He got canceled on Fused and was put on Trinket exactly.
It's one of those rerunning on buttons, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
And I think the reason it was canceled it was
a combination of like low ratings.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
And you don't want to see Steve O singing.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
I think the biggest reason they got canceled is for
safety issues, because the premise of the show is that
people need to sing karaoke to STEVEO. So he's actually
just the audience. They need to sing to him while
being physically tortured. Okay, and the forms of torture very
segment to segment. Sometimes they're walking through cacti, but the
(44:49):
best torture, from my opinion, is that they're being electrically
shocked by a series of sensors that are that are
strapped up to their body and whenever, for I'm in
a bad mood or feeling disappointed or anxious. I just
pull up a specific clip which everyone should watch, which
(45:10):
is rambling Man, which is a man with a beautiful
baritone voice serenading STEVEO as he is as he is
being electrically shocked within an inch of his life.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
All right, all right, and that is my little Are
you a fan of the Jackass universe?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Absolutely love it. Yeah, But as as much as I
love that show and everything about Jackass, to me, that
sort of branch of comedy reached into pathiosis for me
with Killer Karaoke Star.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Okay, I'll have to see it rambling Man. Yeah, all right,
you've heard it here first, people, that is the moment
of joy. Well, I want to thank you for being here.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Man, you for having me, and honestly, like not to
embarrass you, but like your episodes for the Simpsons were
so formative for me as a kid.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Which specific episodes were so good? I mean, you can
name them all, but no.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
The Greek Bartha Daredevil.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Well, first, I'm glad you like them. I wrote them
with and all those other great writers. Yes, you know
they're fantastic.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
So I mean I know that you wrote the Homer
uh uh jumping over the gorge and then falling because
you mentioned because because you took credit for it on
the Graining interviews. So I know that you wrote my
favorite slapstick moment. It is in the history of this.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
One of the things, one of the greatest things I've
ever met, my happiest writing moment, and how was executed. Well,
I'm glad you like it. I am proud of Barta Daredevil.
I hate my work, watching my work. I don't know, really,
I really do, but Barta Daredevil is one thing I
really love. Just still can watch it.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
I've watched it recently.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, well, thank you and thanks for being here. And
I'm thrilled to be uh now one of your best friends.
So that's fantastic. I feel honored to be there. And
I'm sure you'll send me your next book before it
goes out. For my opinion, it's very important and I'll
be honest. I will be honest. Don't be no'll be
no no, full detailed notes, and thank you for being here.
(47:05):
Don't be alone. Meet somebody great, you know, like Simon.
Go find talk to somebody, have a good life, connect
with somebody, do something. Don't just sit there on your
music machine or what are you doing? Are you exercising
right now? Talk to somebody next to you, say hi, anyway,
we'll talk to you next time. Bye. Don't be alone
(47:27):
with j.
Strawhut Media. Hi, I'm Simon Rich and it's really my
honor and my privilege to be here on Don't Be
Alone with Jake Cogan, Don't Be Alone.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
With j j Cogan. Hi there, welcome to Don't Be
Alone with Jake Cogan. I'm Jake Cogan. That shouldn't be
a surprise you've tuned into Don't Be Along with Jake Cogan.
Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. The
show has been going like gangbusters. People love this show
and I'm thrilled. If you like this show, subscribe to it,
(00:41):
press like if there's a like button around you, or
write a review, or share it with somebody. The more
you share it with somebody, the more it gets around,
and the more compliments I get randomly from people from strangers.
And if I can find the love of strangers, then
I don't need my family. And that's really the goal
is to be able to make them obsolete. I want
(01:02):
to make my family obsolete, and you can help me
with this by liking Don't Be Alone with Jay Kogan,
So please do that today. We have a great show.
Simon Rich very talented writer, incredible funny guy, has written
some of the funniest things you've seen on State out Live.
He wrote Simpsons, He's written TV series, and he's written
(01:23):
an incredible book called Glory Days, which I loved so
much I really had to sit down and talk with
him about it. We'll also be talking about something that's
true to me, which is I tend to write when
I write, which isn't all the time because writing's hard,
But when I write, I tend to write things about
fantastical stories, stories that are not of my life. They're
(01:46):
not about you know, this guy who lives in la
and grew up in Encino, and they're not really autobiographical stories.
There are stories about characters that I think are interesting,
who are going through things in their lives that I
am going through in my life, or that the issues
are coming up in those characters, complicated histories that are
that rhyme with my history but aren't exactly my history.
(02:08):
I don't write about me anyway. We'll talk to Simon
about it. He writes short stories about fantastical things, and
they're fantastic, and they're interesting and they're sometimes heartfelt, and
I think that's legit. Should I be writing things that
are more autobiographical or is it okay to just write
things that I love and that are interesting to me
and that I think have meaning because they have meaning
in my life. And that's enough. We'll talk about it
(02:31):
with the great Simon rich don't be alone with j
So you watched my show?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I listened to it?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Did you you listen to it? Because I said I
want you on the show and he said, hey, here's examples. No.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I listened to it for the first time. I think
because Matt Greener saw it. I was like, Oh, I realized,
with shock, I had never actually listened to an in
depth interview with them right.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Well, he doesn't do them right. That's the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So that's that. And then I was like, oh, has
been on and has been on. So I've I've become
a fan of the show.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I've enjoyed your work a lot, and I've read your
other short stories book and I really thought fantastic and thanks.
You know, I don't know you from Adam. I don't
know anything about you except that you're really talented. And
and also so I've tried to learn. I've tried to learn. Well,
you'll tell me what I've got right and what I've
got wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, first, it means a lot to me because I
am a fan of your writing on The Simpsons crazier,
but also like not just not just an enormous fan,
but your episodes of the Simpsons are like absolutely formative
for me and were among the very first works of
art that I was ever obsessed with, So like the
first time, like actually like truly the first the first
(03:51):
U script that the first thing that's sort of like
approximates a script that I ever read in my life,
were a transcripts of some of your episodes wow, which
were published in like some kind of Simpsons you know,
cash grab sure, one of the many.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Some sort of some sort of let's cheat Jakogan out
of money publications.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
You certainly did make it, No, I know, I understand
when I was reading and like copying out the jokes
in the stage direct.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Interesting that this is true because your publicist gave me
a big hard time to get you. I had to
do a song and dance to pull you in.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Never talked to me.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I said, I said, well, you know it's there. It's
a wall. But it was a wall. But there were
people trying to save you. The trouble saying Simon doesn't
want to do it. I said, you might ask him.
I did the Simpsons. He I know he did the Simpsons.
We have that he worked Mad Magazine. My dad worked
for Mad Magazine.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So remind me.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Okay, So my dad's name is Arnie Cogan, right, I know.
He was one of the usual gang of idiots. And
he started working in the nineteen sixties and continued working
up until like three years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
So he wrote some of your favorite uh the parodies
of things?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
And so did you grow up knowing like William Gaines?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And I did know William gains He gave me a
nice permits for gift.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, no, he did very nice. I know some of
those Some of those people, I mean, my favorite of
them all is Sergio Ergonis is my favorite of them all,
just on a personal basis and also just an artistic basis.
I'm just a huge, huge fan. But he's just a sweetheart,
genius who I love. But I mean, my dad. Many
of them are dead people who came up with my dad. Magazine,
(05:30):
and I think the magazine may be dead. I'm not
exactly sure.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I think it is dead, but I wrote for it
as as recently as like maybe five years ago, like
I think it went away and came back and under
different leaderships over the yere.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So you have like this nerd checklist of things that
you wanted to do, this dream, nerd dreams that you've done.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Well, my dream was to be on this podcast. So
I was like, someday there's going to be this thing
called podcast. One of them is going to do this,
And so I had to.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Say, you're like a precog Nerd who knows things in
the few. That's really great. But no, you the Simpsons,
like you did a guest episode of The Simpsons? Is
that what happened? How did that work out?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Like?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I don't know. It's a Harvard connection.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Go ahead, I'll have you know that my way into
the writer's room was through a graduate of Brown. Okay,
so you know who Ian Max Stungle. Yeah, so Ian
was who your listeners probably do know this long time
Simpsons writer legends there for I think seventeen seasons. Sure,
it's pretty tall, extremely tall. In fact, the character of
(06:30):
the very tall man I've heard is based on him.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Could be true. I don't know, That's what I long
after I left.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So I'm brilliant, brilliant writer, incredibly sweet guy, and he
was a writer producer on the show I created called
Man Seeking Woman. Sure, and I just one of the
reasons I hired him was obviously his incredible work for
The Simpsons, my favorite television show. And I basically when
he was working for me, I just pressured him into
introducing me to Selman right exactly, so I could pitch
(06:58):
him ideas. It was always my dream to write for.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
The Sentence growing up. And how was that experience?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I thrill it? Okay, it was great. I mean it
was like fantasy camp. It was like, you know, it's
like one of those where you get to put on
a guitar and play on a stage, sing backup for
Springsteen or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It's I mean, it's They're hard. They're hard sometimes to write,
especially you know season one thousand, yeah, where they've done
everything well.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
When I went in to pitch the episode ideas to
to Matt Craney, I was nervous that I would pitch
something that they had already done, and so so I
prefaced it by saying, like, look, I just want I
don't want to offend everybody at anybody, and you should know.
I've only seen six hundred episodes in right, not less
than eighty percent or whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Right, But it's it's but they've done everything, so it
doesn't matter what you've done. You just got to find
the new twist on the same old thing.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yes, the thing that Granning said to me. And by
the way, I did not know he was going to
be there, m hm when I was.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
He didn't know either, I'm sure not until he showed
up that day.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That's it. And so h but they're like, well, since
he's here, you pitched to him because he's you know,
right and nominally in charge, okay, And so I sat
across from him and he said to me, the chair,
I'm so happy we're talking because you could actually like
tell me if this is real or just like a
bizarre power move. He said, The chair that you're sitting
(08:19):
in is the chair I was sitting in when I
pitched the Simpsons.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Were you in that little chateau building.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
That has the movie banners on top?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah probably?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
How does that make sense? But how why would he
be pitching.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Because Jim's office is in there? And then they went
into Jim's office. That's kind of probably somewhere near Jim's
office or the room, the conference room near Gym's.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Office, and I was just small talk. Yeah, he wasn't
trying to like get under my skin and.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Maybe probably not. Yeah, I guess knowing Matt, I don't
think he had any interest in getting under your gut yet,
but it could have been. But I mean, that story
is still amazing. That story is like, that's that's what
all of show business should be, which is you come
in to do one thing and they say and you'd
say no, and then you say, but I'm going to
give you this other thing yes, and it turns into
a billion dollar industry. Yes, that's fantastic. That's what I
(09:06):
want to do.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I want to walk into a room with one bad
idea and they say no, and then on my feet
think of something else and they go okay, and then
have that be the thing that gets my great great
great great grandchildren on yachts. Yeah, you know that's the
most important thing. But oh, that was good. So you
pitched to him. Now, the thing about the Simpsons is
you have to you have to gather up support from
(09:27):
Matt Graining, but also from Jim Brooks and also from
Matt Selman and also I don't know if kind of
from from Al Jean a little bit.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So I got to basically do a Selman episode. Okay,
so he was like the showrunner that he was my boss.
So I met Al a couple of times, but but
I was really working for Matt, so I would run
every outline, every draft by him and a few of
his likes.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Okay, that's good, that's great.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But I did get to go to like the table reading,
but I got to go to a couple of rewrite sessions,
so I yeah, it was very much. It was very
sweet of them to kind of like let me have
the illusion of participations.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Well, you did participate. You wrote an episode, you wrote
a first draft. I'm sure you wrote an outline. I'm
sure you did all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
It was a thrill.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
And what percentage of your work remained? Ah, would you
say maybe half? That's fantastic. That's a huge That's that
is a grand slam walk off home run. Fifty percent
of your stuff stayed. You can do no better.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's great. I'm thrilled to no better.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
That's that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Definitely, the best few jokes were not mine.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
It doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, No, it's a group effort.
I mean that all things are a group effort. So
that's that's fine. Well, I mean maybe not your books.
Your books may not be a group effort, but maybe
they are. I don't know how many I wish they were.
You have editors and people. Does does your wife's a writer? Yes?
Does she read your stuff before it gets Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I write. I write these short story collections, and I
the way I what I do is I basically write
like twice as many stories as will ultimately be in
the book, and then I kind of show them to
the finished drafts to like editors, I show them to
the New Yorker, I show them to my age, and
I show them to my wife. I show them to
(11:10):
a couple of like trusted friends, and I basically.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Say, which is the good one?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, what are your favorites? And they'll usually be like
a consensus, and then I just kind of cut the
other one. Did you rather than try to fix them?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
And glory days? Did you have a theme going in
or did you just write a bunch of stories and
then find the theme at the end of all? The
picked the favorite short stories. These are the what's the
theme that runs through them to create a theme.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
They all all my collections have sort of like a
loose theme, and it's pretty organic because I just kind
of write stories that are about what I'm going through
in my life and there so it's, yeah, when I
had my first child, it's sort of very predictable. But
then yeah, we're going to write a book about parenting,
and this one is about turning forty. And what happens
(11:58):
is I basically write. Once I've got three or four stories,
I sort of start to realize what the book is
going to be about, and then I consciously try to
make it more thematically. It's great link, but yeah, like
the first one for this collection is a story called Mario,
which was I saw on my phone the fortieth anniversary
(12:19):
of Super Mario the video game, and I said, oh,
Mario's turning forty.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Right, just like you, just like me.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I was like, there's definitely a story there, and so
it's that's a story written.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I felt sad for Mario. You had a lot of
trouble back issues, money issues. The girl he was pursuing
is not somebody he truly loved.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Yeah, the princess and him have an extremely toxic relationship.
He accuses her of getting kidnapped by Coopa's on purpose. Yeah,
I know, which is you know, cheating. Yeah, a hard
thing to come back from in a relationship, right.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And Luigi, Luigi's doing kind Luigi's doing better. So yeah,
and the story you find out that Luigi finally got
sober and he which is great because he was going
to die. And uh, but he's married to this guy
Kiwami who's like very polite and rich but just so
boring that he's constantly getting on Mario's case to to
to redo his resume because Mario is really too old
(13:13):
to be in the rescue business anymore. He's got horrific
arthritis from you know, smashing the bricks with his face
for his entire very hard y. Yeah, and it's just
at four, you can't really pursue that long term.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
And the whole plumbing thing it's gone by the wayside,
I mean, the whole.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
It's all he's got though, it's his only other it's
only thing on skill you could put on a CV.
So Kawami is like, you know, telling him how to
you know, how to write the resume and and and
uh uh it's just it's a bad scene.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Yeah, no, you're The stories were fantastic, and some of
them were heartfelt. In other words, I was I read
it to laugh, but I was moved by some of them.
Like the participation trophy story I thought was beautiful, thank you,
like ultimately and there's like and I didn't expect it
to be beautiful and it was beautiful. I feel like, uh,
(14:07):
the tooth Fairy, I wasn't moved by the Tooth Fairy
so much, but I was like, I understand, I understood
what the tooth Fairy was going through, and I was
like really happy when uh when when I read the
Mario one, the Goliath one is hysterical. I mean it's
it's it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Thank you so much. Yeah, the Gliath one is it's
just the David and Goliath story. From the perspective of Goliath,
David is the world's first underdog. He sort of depicted
in the story as a kind of like Justin Bieber
like figure just in the in the first press conference
of all time. Uh, David just dominates. He says, you know,
(14:45):
he says, really, you know, the the pray, all the
praise should go to my mother. You know, being a
single mother is no joke if you ask me, She's
the real, She's the real, ultimate death fighter applauds and Goliath. Meanwhile,
just you know, he's broke, he's divorced, and he he
just needs to get endorsements to keep his daughter in
private school.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And David in the story is a little douchey. David
really is a little douchey.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
He's very confident for someone who has never fought.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Right, especially a giant who could rip his spine out.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, that's the glass move. As he rips people's spines
out in a single motion, it's impossible to defend against him.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Right, and he takes I mean, I don't want to
spoil it for anybody, but he takes an interesting turn
at the end. Yes, and I and I appreciate that.
Don't be alone with. One of the other ones that
(15:46):
moved me oddly was the story like We're not We're
not so different You and I, which is all about
male friendship, yeah at a certain age, And it's fantastic,
Thank you, thanks again. It's about a super villain trying
to make friends.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah. The opening scene is the scene you've seen in
every superhero movie for fifty Years, which is Death Skull
has Ultraman in chains and you know, over a that
of toxic waste, and he says to him, you know,
we're not so different, you and I, and Ultraman's like,
we're prettely right, opposites actually having good You're evil, like
(16:24):
nothing in common. And then it cuts to death Skull
at home with his wife Jackie, and she's like, so,
are you guys gonna how to go? Are you going
to hang out?
Speaker 2 (16:32):
You know?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And you find out that that was him fishing for
essentially an adult play date, right, And he's this middle
aged dude who has been meguomaniacally focused on his career
and has not really prioritized relationships and as a result,
like Jackie's going to girls' nights like three times a week,
she's got friends from work, she's got friends from book club,
(16:55):
and death Skull is just alone drinking in his den.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
You know, hanging out and the girls when they're over.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Bugging the girls a lot. Yeah, trying to be part
of their bachelor atte every.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Man even though he's a supervillain. This is every man's story. Yeah,
and I and I appreciated.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
That well, it's all you know, it's all just but
it's all from the Simpsons. Yeah, I mean I feel
like every single thing I do, there's certain like obviously
it's pros. So there are certain writing writing things I
do that are ripping off prose writers that I love.
But on like a tonal level and a story level,
and certainly on a premise level, it is just I
(17:30):
see it as straight up Simpsons plagiarism.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
So let me challenge this because one of the whole
premise of the show don't be Alone with Ja Cocon
is that bring really smart people into help me my problems.
And here's the problem I have as a writer and
as a which is I like doing stories that are
about fantastical, interesting people or situations that I'm not. I
(17:54):
write about mop bosses and about people billionaires and what
I don't necessarily about me. But I'm always putting pieces
of my life and things I care about in it. Yeah,
but I'm always told by people, sometimes executives, who want
what I want, your authentic story. I want to hear
your life, your story. My life is boring. I don't
(18:16):
think I would make a good movie or TV show. Well,
you know, you're afraid you're afraid to put your life
down on paper. I said, I don't think I'm afraid.
I think I am trying to keep things lively and
interesting and make something that i'd want to watch. And
I don't think i'd want to watch something about me.
So I pose to you, are we afraid of revealing
(18:38):
our lives? Are we afraid of putting it all out
on the table because it's because it's just too intimate?
Or are we saving an audience boredom by not revealing
our lives?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, have you ever tried? Because I because like that's
the question is like, like, because I personally when I
was growing up, the umber one comedy writer in pros
by far was David Stares, and it was not close.
So when I was, you know, a teenager writing you know,
hopefully funny things their magazines, the response was constantly okay,
(19:15):
like this is pretty funny, but like can you write
exactly though, like David Sidaris, Right, well, no, I don't
really do that, but of course, like at the age
of nineteen, you say, I'll try, right, And And what
I found at a very early age is when I
was writing stories that were literally about things that had
happened in my own life. Not only were they boring
(19:38):
because my wife was boring, especially compared to Snaris are
they I couldn't write about them with any kind of
emotional honesty or authenticity, So they were actually way less emotional.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Okay, So that kind of goes to the point where
you're distancing yourself a little bit from the thing because
it is your life.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It is a weird yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
You don't have a you don't have perspective, But by
do you want to keep some of that experience to
yourself in this particular way.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, it's a historic participation trophy, is a very confessional, emotional,
autobiographical piece, but it's not written from my perspective, and
that's the story. It's told from the perspective of a
Like many millennials, I grew up winning a lot of
participation trophies, which I at the time valued and only
(20:26):
realized later on we're worthless. And so I wanted to
write a story kind of about careerism and what it
means to win and lose and all that stuff, sort
of midlife re examination of lunch Piers. So I said, well,
(20:47):
I'm gonna write a story from the point of view
of a participation trophy that I won at a field
day in you know, nineteen ninety two. And so it's
a letter addressed to me from this inert piece of plastic.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
It's a moving story.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And it's like thank you's, and the trophy is basically
tells my life story from the from its point of view,
and it's written as kind of like a love letter
to the one who got away. This trophy really missus man,
of course, but it's so it's ridiculous and surreal, but
it is way more emotionally honest, I think than I've
(21:25):
ever been. And that includes like journals that I kept
as a teenager, you know, in my childhood bedroom.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well, as I was starting my writing career, I was
around other people who were starting their writing careers, and
I noticed that almost everyone who wanted to be a
screenwriter was writing a screenplay about a screenwriter trying to
write this first screenplay. Like and it was like, this
is horrible. Do not write your screenplay about a screenwriter
writing his first screenplay. That is, it's a kiss of death.
(21:55):
I already knew at seventeen.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
The only exception to that because I generally but every
rule there except sure, Stephen King. Sure, who writes about
a lot of horror writers and that's always mostly awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
But yes, I agree, Stephen King is the exception to
all rules. It's true, and he can write anything anytime,
anywhere and it'd be great. But it's it's interesting, like
to me, I would much rather write about that struggle
to write that first screenplay and change screenplay to bank
robbery and change, you know, do do to put the
same emotion into something else and then explore it from
(22:32):
a different point of view. It's easier for me, and
maybe it's a deficiency in my psychological makeup.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
In the history of music, it's very cyclical, you know,
like what's is Rogers and hard Rodgers and Hammerstein moving
music or is it kind of like is it less
authentic than you know, Bob Dylan, Because Bob Dylan he's
not only did he write it, but he is singing
(23:00):
it and playing it to you. You know, it cycles
back and forth and then it's it's like what's it
depends on who you're asking and what the marketing department
is telling you.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
You know, the Girshwers wrote some pretty great.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Songs I would describe Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
And bob Bylan wrote some pretty great songs, and now
was Costella wrote some pretty great songs, and yeah, you know,
yeah Bell Eilish is writing some nice songs. So it's like,
you know, there's lots of good art out there, and
not all of it is is even bob Byllan try
to Yes, he's writing about his life, but it's so
packed through metaphor and poetry and like try to decipher it.
You can't. It's a million things to a million people.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, yeah, there there is that thing of like the
confessional stand up comedian or the confessional singer songwriter who's
writing about their actual relationships, which is very powerful to
some people. And then there's also you know, I would
I would argue that like the like Pixar movies are
very moving and emotionally authentic, and the people writing them
(23:58):
are not literally fish.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Right right right, and they and they may not literally
have a lot of emotions either, because you know they're
working for Pixar. But what was your experience at Pixar?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Like it was great, it was, it was sort of
it was maybe a little bit like writing for The
Simpsons in that it's or at least like being a
staff writer on an animated sitcom, Right, I think the
hours were much better.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
But they but they rip it all up, right. I
mean they take a story, they perfect it, they hone it,
they perfect it, and then they rip it apart. That's
what something else.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, that's what felt similar. And and and Pete Doctor,
basically the director of the movie is essentially that you're
working for is essentially the showrunner. Right, So like Pete Doctor,
and it was my boss. And it was very much
like being a staff writer on a sitcom with Pete
as the show runner. Right. And the movie I worked
on mostly there was was inside out, and it was
(24:51):
very much like, yeah, an iterative process. You get it
into animatics, you test it. Certain parts are working, certain
parts are not. And the reason the movies are so
expect is because sometimes the move they'll have a version
of the movie that is like pretty good, and most
studios would be like, all right, yeah, release it, and
Pisar will be like, eh, not quite, not quite, let's
let's kick the We'll release it two years later and
(25:11):
spend another eighty million dollars to get it from a
B to an A.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah. Those they might not been doing that so much anymore.
I don't know. Money seems to be the bottom line
seems to be mattering a lot more. Do you see
inside out too? How they ruined your work? That's great?
Inside out too?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Oh my god, it's great. I think I think Pete
has done a wonderful job, and I think the movies
are are fantastic.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Yeah you have to say that, that's that's true. But yeah,
but I do mean it. As you get older, yeah,
you're you look twelve but you're forty. Yes, okay, so
how does let's talk about that? You know you look young?
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, it runs in my family. It's very it's
a it's a I don't know if there's like a
genetic term for it, but my my grandfather was arrested
on a train in nineteen forty five. He had just
finished his military service. He was a non combatant but
had a high rank. He had, you know, done a
(26:08):
really good job at you know, supervising warehouses in India,
and he was wearing his medals and yeah, they were
arrested him for impersonation.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
So okay, so you've had this history of this with genetically.
As you get older, do you feel you're getting more
comfortable like the participation trophy, getting deeper into your own
psyche and your own truth and your own thing. Do
you think you'll ever get close to writing something that's
much closer to autobiographical?
Speaker 1 (26:38):
You know, Well, it's interesting. I've always seen my work
as I've always seen my short stories as extremely autobiographical, and.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I feel that way about the weird stuff I write too,
But people tell me it's not You're hiding behind you know,
a concept or a big, you know, big premise. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Like, I wrote a story called is It Just Me,
which is about a guy who in his twenties and
he finds out that his ex girlfriend is is dating
somebody new and and he's not over her at all,
but she obviously is over him because she's dating this
guy who happens to be really rich and he's older,
(27:18):
and he's especially upset when he finds out that it's
Adolf Hitler. In the story, you are in his one
hundred and thirty seven years old. He's been you know,
in hiding under under his assumed name in Buenos Aires
since the forties. And it's really annoying because.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
That became part of your TV.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yeah, the first episode based on that story and his
friends are like, you know, you just don't like him
because he's dating Maggie. Like he's like cool, he's he's
got great story. And also like it's like his party
and he bought all his food, he's catered, and it's like,
you know, like maybe the chill out a little and
he just gets wasted and it ends up with him
(27:57):
having to apologize to Hitler. And that's a story I
wrote when I was, you know, after being dumped, right,
and that was the that was born of an extremely
emotional experience for me.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
And no, it's real, it's visceral, it's real. But I
think that at least over the last ten years or so,
writers are being judged by how their life experience is
literally the life experience of the thing they're writing, especially
when you're being pitching a movie or a TV show.
Like if you say, like, well, why are you the
one to write this story of the you know, gangsters
(28:33):
or what's your experience? Well, I don't have any, but yeah,
you know, I've seen a lot of movies and read
some books. That's not good enough. If you say this
is my story, that's part of the sale now.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
But what you all you have to do though, is
then say we'll just say the actor wrote it.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I do. Yeah, you don't do that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
No, oh you just say that you said, just will
say the actor improvised it, right, or you know, the
actor showed up with you.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Sometimes I just lie straight out and say, yes, that's
my story. I'll say that I have this experience. Yes,
Chinese immigrants, Chinese immigrants, It's like second nature to me.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
I wanted to be whoever the most famous person is
involved there. They they wrote, it's their story, and the
best looking, most famous person should always be just marketed
as the writer.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Saying that Nicole Kidman wrote everything I wrote. Maybe I should.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I think I try.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I'll try. Don't be alone with as recording this. You
(29:49):
have a play of short stories that are then becoming
a play at the Hudson Theater.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, I'm really excited about it.
It's rotating cast really talented people and including my friend
John Laney. Sure, Fred Armissen, Richard k You're kind of course.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
We will be you know that. Something I can tell
you already is Richard Kine will be wonderful. He will
be great.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's what's great about it is it's like some of
these actors are are extremely talented, and also I hear
them in my head sometimes anyway when I'm writing fiction,
and so to have them perform it on the stage,
it's just really cool, fantastic. Yeah, Richard Kind I got
to because of Inside Out. He's being boxed so and
(30:37):
he was also in the show I You.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Killed him in that I know.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
He did kill him. And then but then I cast
him as God on a show on Man Seeking Woman
and he was so funny. So I've been a fan
of his for years and I can't wait to see
him do that.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
He is great. If you ever go back to in
the archives of this show, he does a great Don't
be a one with Jay Cogan. There is a mussy
Oh my god. She talks about how important confidence is, yes,
and he exudes it. It's very very worth watching. Yeah,
but was that ever a dream Broadway play?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah? So I I did a BBC radio show for
a few years. There's three seasons on BBC four and
it was just actors over in London performing my stories
in front in front of a live audience, and it
was a really fun experience. It was actors like Peter
Sarah Finovitz and like Jamie Dimitriu from Fleabag and other shows,
(31:34):
and it was the first time I'd really heard actors
just like perform the stories in front of an audience.
And and what's also great is you can use music
and folly and all that stuff. And I just always
thought it would be cool to try it in the
United States.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
We're ready. I think the United States is ready.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
We can we can handle it, except and then but
I didn't know. I had no idea how to do
it like visually, and so that was sort of what
was holding you back because I was like, well, what would.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
It actually look like?
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Though? And then Alex Timbers, this brilliant theater director who
does like very visually spectacular stuff like Mulan Rouge and Beetlejuice,
he was like he approached me and said, you know,
would you want to do a show? And I was like, yes,
if you can figure out how the thing looks what
they're doing up.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
There, and he could, okay, and he has.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So that's I've always been very reliant on directors for
all of my adaptations. So like my TV shows Miracle Workers,
the pilot was directed by Yorma Taconi from A Lonely
Island and then John Kreisel directed the pilot for Man
Seeking Women. They're both like very much responsible for how
(32:48):
those shows look, and I think, honestly, like with my adaptations,
I feel like if we're left to me, they would
look almost like Radio Place.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Right. Are you getting better at visualization the more you do?
No worse? Wow?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Because I think it's one of those things you just
need to keep up with how things look. You need
to really love it.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
I get Pixar all those cal arts, you know, right,
they're drawing constantly, they're watching things constantly if you just
and they're and they're parodying whatever is like in the
visual zeitgeist. If you walk down a hall at Pixar,
you'll see paste it on the wall, like caricatures of
every popular movie that's out there right now. But they're
also being influenced by it, and they're just like so
(33:33):
on the cutting edge of how things look. And you
don't do that if it's homework. You do it because
you love it.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
So you've helped me feel better about my lack of
courage to write my own personal autobiography. Although the story
of a young man in Encino coming of age. Well,
his father wrote for Mad Magazine and The carabur Neet
Show and then brave the waters of Ucla to find
his way into Hollywood.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
It feels like it feels like the follow up to
Baby Reindeer.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
That exactly Netflix. So the needs the real challenge. I
had some real challenges. They wouldn't let me stay at
a dormant you cla, how about that I live at home.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I didn't get at least two episodes out of that.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
I appreciate all this. We're going to move on to
our next segment is question. This is from Will who says,
what's the sn L sketch he stands by that didn't
make it on the air or didn't make it out
of the read through?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Great question, Okay, what is the one? Can I count
ones that got cut? And then when Mulaney came back
and hosted, he was than he was famous enough to
insist that we put it on the show.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Right, So is the jimp Judge one of those?
Speaker 1 (34:53):
No, that's it, that's a new Yeah, we wrote that
is an original sketch. We wrote monkey Judge. But when
whenever he goes back to host we we basically look
through our list of sketches we're most aggrieved.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
What was the aggrieved one that you saved from the pile?
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Switcheroo. So Switcheroo is a sitcom family sitcom from the
eighties which has this sort of classic premise of a
dad switching son, which we've seen, you know, various iterations
of that Freaky Friday premise, so it's one of those.
And then the twist on is that this this show,
(35:35):
in order to be as truthful as possible about what
the switcheroo would mean, the son has to have sex
with the mom, right.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Because she doesn't know the switcheroo has happened. So to
keep the secret alive, he has to act like a husband.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, and the catchy theme song, which we're very proud of, goes,
son goes to work, Dad goes to school, and the
son has sex with the mom.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
So we could not get that over the goal line
until Laney had like three number one specials on Netflix
and then I was like, oh, okay, we can touch
that switch th So yeah, we had a feel like that. Also,
Toilet death Ejector Okay was another one that that and
I just say we wrote these with with Marika Sawyer.
There the three of us wrote these in our early
(36:22):
twenties and toilet Toilet Death Jagger were very proud of
and it's basically, there's nothing more embarrassing as a as
an old person to be discovered dead on the toilet.
So it's every it's every elderly person's worst nightmare. So
what what this product does is if you're on the
toilet and you feel yourself dying, you press a button
(36:42):
and it flings your body away from the toilet to
your bed right and then once sort of the toilet
flushes behind you like a puff of like lavender mist
is spraying. And then also we're very proud of this.
A smart to book drops from a from a compartment
(37:03):
on the ceiling and lands on your reading. It looks
like you were doing something smart, right, And you can
choose between the Bible How to Win Friends and Influence people,
or or Latest Gladwell, oh fantastic. And based on you know,
your your your demographic, you can pick which one. And again, yeah,
I've seen Blany had to get pretty famous for us.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I've seen every SEC, I've seen every Saturday Lives. Wait, really,
I've seen every Settle.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
You've seen every Serurny Night.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
I've seen every Saturday in the Live.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, it's a problem. I've seen every single It's incredible,
fifty years of worth of Setate alive, from the first
one to amazing. Yeah, I don't even the worst years.
I've seen them all.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I don't remember everything, but I remember a lot of them.
But I was such a huge fan. It's such an
important part of my life. And it's sort of like
one of them. I've never tried to work there because
I think it would ruin it. But it was always
the Zeitgeistavida was always important to me and still is.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Have you seen every Simpsons?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I have not seen every since Okay? Yeah, And because
one of the things about if you know how the
sausage is made, you don't necessarily like everything. I've seen
a lot of Simpsons, and all the Simpsons I've seen
since i've left are great.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah. I think that sn L is better than it
was when I was there. Yeah, I think I think
the the writing is better.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
SNL is the same always, which is three good sketches.
You've got one of the best shows. It's like three
great sketches make the show and it's fantastic. So I
don't know, but I'm I'm so when you mentioned all
the sketches, and I remember every one of them and
and I love them and they're great. So congratulations. Mister
(38:41):
Catman writes, what gives them the right to be so
fucking talented?
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, so that gives you the right?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
That's very sweet.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
You're not answering the question. Okay, thank you, Mitch, And
but what gives you the right to be so talented?
Speaker 1 (38:55):
What gives me the right? How would you answer that question?
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
I would say I I don't have the right to
be talented. I think you're mistaking my talent for the
talent of the many people I've worked with.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Good can we run it back?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
And no, No, we're stuck with that. We're stuck with
your sociological sort of name marrish selfishness. It's all out
there now now everybody knows. Look at look at you.
Know you're all about you, You're all about you. Bryson writes,
will your new show be reviewed by your dad? Oh?
Speaker 1 (39:28):
My play?
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I hope so, okay, I mean that would be much What.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Do you panded, what are you panded?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
It would be it would be excellent karmic retribution if
my play got panned at the New York Time. I
mean my father when he was a theater critic. His
nickname was the Butcher of Broadway, sure, because he panned
so many shows and closed them, often often that night.
So the power of the New York Times was such
(39:59):
in the nineteen eighties that he would write a devastating
review and the play would just close. So like, if
anyone deserves to have their shows, it's his son. Yeah
there's any justice, if there's any guy, there's any Yeah,
we'll see any Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, we'll see Carlos writes, you grew up in New
York and now live in Los Angeles. I've never heard
anyone make humorous comparisons between the two cities. I'm wondering
if Simon has any thoughts.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I can't think of yees a single bit about that.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Is it Was it a weird adjustment coming to LA
or is it just fine?
Speaker 1 (40:30):
People are way less into reading. It's something I've noticed
in versus New York. I would say that the amount
of credit that you get in LA for for having
read a book is exactly equivalent to the amount of
credit you would get in New York for having written
that same book. So if you were like I read
I read this Malcolm, I read a Malcolm Gladwell book
(40:52):
at the airport, it would be like saying a dinner
party in Park Slope like I am Malcolm Gladwell equally impressive.
You know, it's just a difference. But that doesn't mean
But I think in terms of creativity and talent. To me,
the most the most impressive people I've met are they
all live in la just illiterate, but they're fantastic, but
(41:14):
they're extremely funny and witty.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And my people, we don't read. We do we do?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And now this is time for a listener mail. Now
it's time for listener man. This is a letter written
into me not knowing you'd be the guests. So it's
a dear Jay and guest. I'm looking to find it
an achievable goal. What's the quality of you you've worked
on that has truly gotten better over time? And what
(41:45):
do you want to work on now? How much progress
counts the success?
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So I because I am from New York, late to
drive in so when I grew up. My parents did
not ever own a car.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Didn't need it.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Yeah, I didn't need it. You used to take to
take the subway. You take a cab if you were
in a hurry. And that's that was the situation. And
then in my thirties I've had I had to learn
how to drive, and I am a very like timid driver.
I don't have a great sense of like how to
communicate with other drivers on the road.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I failed, which is odd because you know, such an
aggressive person. So weird how you're not like the aggressive
driver exactly.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, you wouldn't think it. And I failed to test
like twice before passing it. And I thought an achievable
goal would just be to you know, get to a
level of just like competence and safety for my for
my sake and my family's sake. And then I realized
I didn't have to do that. What I what I
could do was and this is an amazing trick and
(42:44):
I probably shouldn't be reallying this, but it's just too
good to I put a student driver bumper.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Sticker on the nice carne.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
So people know I'm bad.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
So people forgive you for your bad driver and they
avoid me.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Yeah, they know what they It's an honest, simple, legible
way to communicate. Stay out of my way. I suck
at driving.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Okay, so but do you really suck? Yeah, you're really bad.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah yeah, And this sticker has made all the difference.
So I would say to this listener, it's not about
getting presd No, figure out a hack, a hack so
that it becomes other people's problem.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
Okay, excellent. So you're wasting your time trying to improve
your life and get better at something. So no amount
of success is success. Success is tricking other people, just
lie lying. Okay, Well, there you have it. There you
have it. Uh, now it's time for the moment of joy.
A moment of joy.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
So I thought about what I was going to pick
because I know this, I'm a listener, are a fan
of the show. Thought well, maybe I'll say something like
really like beautiful or you know, or something about like my.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Children, yeah you can't talk, daughters are at the table.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Right, Because I was like, oh, that's maing. We seem
more human and likable. And I was like, I'm just
gonna be honest and say, like, what actually brings me
the most pleasure in life? And it is a show
called Killer Karaoke Stevo, which is a remake of a
Japanese game show. I don't know how many episodes they
aired before canceling it in the States. I think it
(44:09):
was it was on like maybe like Fuse. It was
on one of those cable channels at the height of
the bubble.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
He got canceled on Fused and was put on Trinket exactly.
It's one of those rerunning on buttons, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
And I think the reason it was canceled it was
a combination of like low ratings.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
And you don't want to see Steve O singing.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
I think the biggest reason they got canceled is for
safety issues, because the premise of the show is that
people need to sing karaoke to STEVEO. So he's actually
just the audience. They need to sing to him while
being physically tortured. Okay, and the forms of torture very
segment to segment. Sometimes they're walking through cacti, but the
(44:49):
best torture, from my opinion, is that they're being electrically
shocked by a series of sensors that are that are
strapped up to their body and whenever, for I'm in
a bad mood or feeling disappointed or anxious. I just
pull up a specific clip which everyone should watch, which
(45:10):
is rambling Man, which is a man with a beautiful
baritone voice serenading STEVEO as he is as he is
being electrically shocked within an inch of his life.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
All right, all right, and that is my little Are
you a fan of the Jackass universe?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Absolutely love it. Yeah, But as as much as I
love that show and everything about Jackass, to me, that
sort of branch of comedy reached into pathiosis for me
with Killer Karaoke Star.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Okay, I'll have to see it rambling Man. Yeah, all right,
you've heard it here first, people, that is the moment
of joy. Well, I want to thank you for being here.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Man, you for having me, and honestly, like not to
embarrass you, but like your episodes for the Simpsons were
so formative for me as a kid.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Which specific episodes were so good? I mean, you can
name them all, but no.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
The Greek Bartha Daredevil.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Well, first, I'm glad you like them. I wrote them
with and all those other great writers. Yes, you know
they're fantastic.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
So I mean I know that you wrote the Homer
uh uh jumping over the gorge and then falling because
you mentioned because because you took credit for it on
the Graining interviews. So I know that you wrote my
favorite slapstick moment. It is in the history of this.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
One of the things, one of the greatest things I've
ever met, my happiest writing moment, and how was executed. Well,
I'm glad you like it. I am proud of Barta Daredevil.
I hate my work, watching my work. I don't know, really,
I really do, but Barta Daredevil is one thing I
really love. Just still can watch it.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
I've watched it recently.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Yeah, well, thank you and thanks for being here. And
I'm thrilled to be uh now one of your best friends.
So that's fantastic. I feel honored to be there. And
I'm sure you'll send me your next book before it
goes out. For my opinion, it's very important and I'll
be honest. I will be honest. Don't be no'll be
no no, full detailed notes, and thank you for being here.
(47:05):
Don't be alone. Meet somebody great, you know, like Simon.
Go find talk to somebody, have a good life, connect
with somebody, do something. Don't just sit there on your
music machine or what are you doing? Are you exercising
right now? Talk to somebody next to you, say hi, anyway,
we'll talk to you next time. Bye. Don't be alone
(47:27):
with j.
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