September 23, 2025 • 49 mins
The amazing writer Winnie Holzman talks with Jay about hard word and being lucky, Wicked the Musical, Stephen Schwartz, My So Called Life, laying in bed depressed about writing, fighting your fear, tricks of staying in the creative process, Marianne Williamson, studying Broadways musicals even when she didn’t know she wanted to, being driven towards showbiz at 13, taking the train to acting classes, mentors: Arthur Laurents, Stephen Sondheim, loving acting, being married to the great actor, Paul Dooley, how her daughter Savannah is a great writing partner, and Jay’s feud with Ted Danson.
Bio: Winnie Holzman is the writer (with renowned composer/ lyricist Stephen Schwartz) of the musical Wicked, which is now the 4th longest running show in Broadway history, and has been performed in over a hundred cities around the world. After graduating from Princeton University, she studied acting, joined a comedy group, got accepted into the newly formed NYU Musical Theatre Program, (where she studied with such luminaries as Arthur Laurents, Leonard Bernstein, and Stephen Sondheim) wrote a musical (Birds of Paradise, which had a short run off-Broadway) then joined the writing staff of the TV drama thirtysomething, and went on to create the series My SoCalled Life, starring Claire Danes. Other TV credits include Once and Again, (reuniting with her mentors, Ed Zwick and Marshall Herskovitz) Huge (with her daughter, Savannah Dooley) and Roadies (with Cameron Crowe.) She’s written two plays with her husband, actor Paul Dooley: Post-its: Notes on a Marriage, and Assisted Living. Most recently, she completed both screenplays for the movie adaptations of Wicked
Bio: Winnie Holzman is the writer (with renowned composer/ lyricist Stephen Schwartz) of the musical Wicked, which is now the 4th longest running show in Broadway history, and has been performed in over a hundred cities around the world. After graduating from Princeton University, she studied acting, joined a comedy group, got accepted into the newly formed NYU Musical Theatre Program, (where she studied with such luminaries as Arthur Laurents, Leonard Bernstein, and Stephen Sondheim) wrote a musical (Birds of Paradise, which had a short run off-Broadway) then joined the writing staff of the TV drama thirtysomething, and went on to create the series My SoCalled Life, starring Claire Danes. Other TV credits include Once and Again, (reuniting with her mentors, Ed Zwick and Marshall Herskovitz) Huge (with her daughter, Savannah Dooley) and Roadies (with Cameron Crowe.) She’s written two plays with her husband, actor Paul Dooley: Post-its: Notes on a Marriage, and Assisted Living. Most recently, she completed both screenplays for the movie adaptations of Wicked
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Straw Hut Media. Hi, I'm Winnie Holtsman and I'm on
Don't Be Alone with j Cogan, a podcast Don't.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Be Alone with jj Cogan.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Thanks for coming to Don't Be Alone with Ja Cogan.
So glad to have you back. This week, we have
a really fun guest, an amazing writer. I'll tell you
more about her coming up, but first I just want
to thank everybody for subscribing to the show, for liking
the show, for writing reviews of the show. All of
that helps, especially on YouTube. If you click subscribe on YouTube,
(00:39):
then angel gets his wings. Every time you subscribe, a
bell goes off and an angel gets his wings. Right
to me at dbawjk at gmail dot com. That's stands
for don't be Alone with j Cogan dbawjk at gmail
dot com. With your compliments or complaints or listener questions.
I want all of that, and I love to have
(00:59):
a kinda with you to just say hi. It'd be
really great. And one last thing, there is a substack
a Jake Cogan Don't Be Alone with Jake Hogan's substack.
Get on that. It's free and there's going to be interesting,
fun additional bonus material that you can get only there.
So if you like the show and are a fan,
let's start a community. Let's start hanging out and make
(01:22):
this thing even bigger so I can make it a cult.
That's a good gig if you're a cult leader. So
today's show, we have the Great Winnie Holsman as our guest.
Winnie is a talented writer also an actress. She's written
so many things. She's most famous for writing Wicked, the
(01:43):
movie and the play Wicked musical. She's also famous for
Once and Again. She worked on My soul called Life
thirty something so great. TV Huge is one of her shows.
She's really smart, really talented, and I know her for
I don't know twenty years, and she's always been adorable
(02:05):
and she's always been great, and she's never seem like
one of Hollywood's top writers, but because of how she
carries herself as just a very sweet person, but she
turns out to be one of Hollywood's top writers. And
we're going to ask her about her creative process. We're
going to ask her how she chooses to work, how
she fights her fear. We're going to talk about the
(02:27):
process of making Wicked. We're going to talk about her
amazing talented husband Paul Julie, who's a really talented actor,
and her daughter savannaho's really talented writer. And we're just
gonna really delve into all things Winnie Holtsman and you'll
love her this like I do. Right after this, don't
be alone with jjiga from Winnie Holtsman, thank you so
(02:53):
much for being here. You're legendary writer, a legendary writer
who has created amazing TV shows, including My so called life,
which is you know, people still to this day, yeah,
probably come up to you and hug you and say
thank you for that TV show.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well. I had a really fun experience just just a
few days ago where this past week I was doing
a small acting role, yes on Mike Sure's new Showide There.
I was playing this small part that I, you know,
got hired to do, which is like a miracle because
I don't usually get hired to do acting, and a
(03:34):
lot of the writing of the writers were coming up
to me with very very kind and lovely, you know,
little words to me. And it didn't you know, first
of all, I know, I think I have this in
common with you. I really love other writers. I love
my fellow writers, so just really fun to meet them,
first of all, but that that they had such feelings
(03:59):
of of love for my show, you know, in mental of.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Special show, it was. It was a special show for sure.
I mean it's one of those things where it has
been off the air.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
For thirty years.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Thirty years and it's still on people's lips as one
of the great shows and people still talk about it,
and it really, you know, it had a very.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It made an impact.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
It did.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
It did, and.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Even when we were making it, like the crew and
the drivers and just people that you thought of as
not as emotional, which is a stereotype. It's not right
for me to even think that, Well.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
It's kind of true speaking are not the are not
the weepiest of people.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Those people were expressing to me. I remember when we wrapped,
as the pilot was wrapping, people were coming up to
me those kinds of guys right and saying thugs, right, thugs,
and they were they were expressing how how they felt
about the show right, And it made me feel like,
oh wow, if we did keep doing this right, this
(05:03):
could could potentially reach people in a nice way, in
a meaningful way.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I've worked on play shows where the teams don't come
up to you and compliment you. I've had it, believe Well,
that's good. I do believe it. I do believe it.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
But that's a real that's a great compliment. You know,
you want, you want, You certainly want your fellow writers.
I mean that that feels wonderful, But you also want
people who maybe don't always let them let their heart
be on their sleeve. You know, say like that really
meant a lot to me.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, interestingly enough, it's it's a show about a high
school girl, right, but it's but it's you don't have
to be It's one of those show you don't have
to be a high school girl to involve yourself in it.
Involve yourself in the story and feel the pain that
she's feeling or the joy she's feeling. Are the stories.
I could say the same thing about thirty something and
some of these other shows that sort of really sort
(05:53):
of captured the imagination of people. You know, I watched
thirty something, and I don't think I was thirty.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Something, right, you couldn't have been.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I was about married people, and none of that stuff
was stuff I was going through. But I was into
the story.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
You know, these two guys, Marshall Hurstkovitsinette Wick. They they
did something that was pretty outrageous, audacious. You could say
they just wanted to do a TV show that they
that they felt was their lives and that's there's something
about that that it sounds like such a simple idea.
(06:28):
I mean, now I guess it is immortal.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
It's what all TV executives are asking for you.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, but back then that was kind of audacious, this
idea of their just stepping up and going, we're just
we know that people don't think of this as what
a TV show is supposed to be about, but we
just think it's interesting and we're we're going to do it.
And there was something about that level of honesty and
(06:55):
rashness that really that really changed me.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I read Edswicks's book, which was pretty great book, and
he talks about, you know, the goal of that show
is trying to be as honest as they could and
take things from their life as they could, and anything
that even struck slightly hacky or clammy, they would try
to avoid as much as they could. But if it
(07:22):
was real, yeah, they'd still do it.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
I was gonna say about Ed and his book is
edswicks book is that I would recommend it to anyone
listening who's interested in trying to do this.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, it's really worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, because it has a lot he has a lot
of good advice.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Actually he comes at it from a very sort of
artistic point of view, but also that he wants his
shows to challenge society, like it's not just ye, he's
not just writing the truth. He's writing the truth and
will this is this a subject that is going to
(08:02):
try to push society in the right direction? Yeah, I
mean that's a big challenge. I don't I'm much more like,
is it true? Am I interested in it? Because I
don't really believe that much of our work is pushing
society in the right direction or not.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So I don't know. I mean I think the you know,
this is a bit of a cliche, but you know,
the personal has become so political. I mean, in other words,
like if you think about what happened recently tragically in
this country, just on the subject of abortion. You know,
the way when I was growing up, by the time
I hit college, Roe v. Wade had happened, and there
(08:39):
was this feeling of like you that if you accidentally
got pregnant and you didn't want to be. That didn't
have to either destroy your life or put you in
a dangerous criminal situation. It didn't have to be a
scary disaster. It could actually be something that you could
just handle. And the fact that that got rolled back
(09:00):
and stolen away in my lifetime is shocking to me
on a personal level, for sure. And it's a political
issue quote unquote, but it's not a political issue. It's
you know, when when I think about just you know,
in my own life, you know, my whole my life.
You know, when I had my abortion, my life would
(09:21):
have taken a completely different turn if I had not
been able to have a safe, legal abortion in New
York City, where nobody looked at me funny, nobody tried
to talk me out of it. I was I could afford.
It wasn't even expensive. Uh, you know, that was blessing
in my life.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Of course, That's.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
How I was able to do the rest of my life, honestly.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
So, but even if you're not going to become one
of the world's greatest writers, if you just want to
work at Target, you still should have the choice of
what you want to do with your life. And how
you want to live. And that's the shocking part. What's
truly shocking now is that women's especially aren't fighting to
get this. You know, that we aren't fighting successfully to
(10:06):
get this back somehow.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Well, I mean a lot, there's a lot of women
who are fighting.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I hope, I hope. I mean, I'm obviously politically trying
to fight a lot of things that are happening. But
it's just so much.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
There's so much. But you have to I mean, I
I don't mean to say you have to. I mean,
you don't have to do anything. But it's like what
I find for myself is I try to just find
places where I think I can be of use or
I think I can do some good because it is
like that. You know, now I'm gonna sound like such
a I don't know, but there is that Talmutek I
(10:38):
think saying in Judaism that if you save one life,
you save the world. That's right, yeah, And that is
a very meaningful idea to me that that goes into
my writing and also into anything I might do, you know,
socially in terms of trying to help people in the world.
You know, it's it's not quantity It's it's really not
(10:59):
about like how big of how big a splash can
you make? You know, It's about like just trying to
trying to be used in some way for a greater good,
even if it's just with one person or time, you know,
you know, And that's how I think about my writing too.
It's like, well, that's how I think about my Soul
called Life. You know, Like when when My Soul called
Life was taken off the air after nineteen episodes, you know,
(11:22):
they were well, first of all, they were saying things like,
you know, well it's only nine million a week, you know,
and you know, think what that would that would be
like now. But I mean, you know, when I was
growing up on Long Island, nine million people watching my
show every week, that sounds very successful. So it's like
I had to re refigure my whole way of thinking
(11:42):
about my career, my success, what I believed in. And
it was really great because I realized, like I'm jumping
around a lot. But Cameron Crow, who I love, has
this great line in Jerry Maguire, which is a movie
I love, where he says, I wish you my kind
of success. And that's what I learned from the whole.
(12:03):
That's one of the big things I've learned from the
whole my so called life experience. I wished myself my
kind of success. It wasn't about how long it was
on the air. It wasn't about how many million, how
many millions you know who cares.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Well, You're talking about something which is what's in your
control and what's not in your control.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
The stuff that's in your control, you try to do
your best and if people like it and love it, great,
and if it affects one person or one hundred people, great.
None of that's in your.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Control exactly, not in my control and not my business.
But truly not my business. My business is you know
that script giving it at.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
My all, you know, but let's talk about that. The
idea of as a writer giving what you think is,
I don't know, a valuable story. I don't want to
say wisdom, but a valuable story to people to see.
We don't talk about masses of people. We talk about individuals.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I've said this once and while to you students. If
I was asked, like, let's say you're you're in an
elevator with someone, if you just walk in and you're
just standing AXT this person. Then you both get out
of your floors. You could look at that person like, oh,
that's just a business man, or oh that's just a
delivery person, or whatever the stereotyp is. But if you
got stuck in that elevator with that person, you would
(13:20):
very soon be sitting on the floor together, you know,
looking into each other's eyes. You'd realize that you were
really so alike.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Hand come, I would just I would decide who's the
king of the elevator, and I'd make it happen for me.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It would be I hope it's a delivery person. I
hope they have food, right exactly, But you know what
I mean, Like, when you get to that deeper place,
everyone has so much in common. Everyone is so much alike.
And that's what I what I think of is what
I'm doing when I'm writing. You know, I'm I'm gonna
if it's going to bring people together, not all people.
(14:01):
Doesn't have to be all people. We already said that,
we covered that, But it's like, if it's going to
bring people together and give them a sense of communing
and give them a sense that they're not so alone,
that's going to be Because you went to that deeper
place where we all live.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Don't be alone with j J cogin.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
My show, don't be alone with Ja Cogan. It's always
about you, somebody smart helping me with my problems. My
problem is I want to do fifteen different things all
the time, right, and I want to pread this, and
I want to write that, and I only have so
much energy and time, and that I have so many
different projects that I want to do in your heart,
in my heart that I'm excited about.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Then how do you narrow down what it is? Do you? As?
That requirement for you is that this story has to
be a value or it just has to.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Be I mean that value thing. I don't know what
that even means, like in a way that that's a
that's something I would just take off the table. What
I would, what I would what I go to is
what's the one that I think about the most, What's
the one that keeps that keeps stirring around in my
head where I where I feel like I feel like
(15:23):
I'm already getting ideas about it, or even let's say
you're not getting ideas, because that's my story A lot
of times, Believe me, a lot of times I feel like, gee,
I'd love to pay someone for an idea, Like what's
an idea? I don't I forget even how to get one.
But but there's this sense that I have of like
I can't let go of it. It's that it's that
(15:43):
broke back mountain thing. I can't quit, you, like I
can't like like the this, this, this pilot that I've
written that I'm hoping Claire Danes will do, that I'm
hoping HBO will do, but we don't know. The apple
Bound Curse. This is something I got the idea for,
or it's got to be it's got to be twenty
five twenty twenty five years ago originally, but it has
(16:07):
morphed and morphed and changed and changed and so and
of course I was doing other things, so it got
left to the side for and I had like all
these like sort of slightly incoherent, you know, stacks of
notes about it. I never had a treatment. I never
had a pilot because I still didn't understand it right.
(16:30):
I didn't understand how I was gonna write it. I
didn't and I would sit and my daughter, who's also
a writer, who I love so much, and also is
a really good writer, and we've written together. She's my
first reader, and she just kind of understands me and
is great at this. One day, I was just lying
on my bed, literally despondent, really yes, saying to her,
(16:52):
and this has happened to me with other projects too.
I mean, I'm I'm a bit of a case. But
I was like lying there, going I don't know what
to do. I don't want to walk away from it
because I feel like I still love it, but I
don't think it's really a show. And I don't understand
how this part of it. I won't say what it is,
but this element and this element. I had these two
(17:13):
elements and they did not they didn't seem connected into
one show.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And yet you knew they were connected.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I didn't want to do the show unless they were connected.
And my daughter, because of all the reasons, I just said,
she's really good at this and she really knows me,
and and she doesn't even remember the moment this happened,
but she said, what if this character was this instead
of this? She created a whole new character of what
(17:41):
it could be. And the second she said it, I
went it was just what people say the cliche a
light bulb, and I just was like a key in
a lock. And after that, I believe, like, I don't
know if HBO will do this Forcocta show. I know
Claire wants to do it. I know I want to
do it, but I know now well, I hate to say,
(18:02):
I know, I get so nervous. I get so nervous,
But I feel like I have a good shot at
being able to write it now because it makes sense
to me as a story. So I understand it. I
definitely understand it. And I and I wasn't there for
you know, a long, really long time. So what I
guess what I'm trying to say is that some instinct
(18:23):
in me wouldn't let go of it.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Right. But to me, I'm writing something, and almost always
the thing I'm not writing is the thing that's a.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Little bit of that always looks that to me is
something else that to me is it always seems like
it would be easier. The other thing always seems easier
than the thing you're doing. You know. I like, I'll
be watching TV and I'll go, why can't I think
of an idea like that? I could write that really well?
But I've got to think of these crazy ideas that
(18:52):
like don't make any sense and are bad, you know,
and that people will make fun of because they're so bad.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Like I spend a lot of time with my friends
making fun of your writing. So it's weird that you
knew about that, that we said we have coffee.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
That is such a coincidence. Yeah, but I guess that
you know I'm very sensitive, so I guess I sensed it.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Well. I'm surprised of the picture of you sort of
being stuck and lying on your bed forlorn.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It's not like that's an unusual situation.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
I surprised that because you come from a theatrical theater
background like you Hanston and Masters, but also from a
comedy group background where ideas have to be explored that's
where they are.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
There's a lot of fear that I live with, and
I've lived with it for so long that it's become
like a like a part of me, and it's not.
It doesn't. It is weird to say, but the fear
doesn't scare me like it used to. Like, in other words,
I used to really think that because I felt so
frightened most of the time about writing that it meant
(19:56):
that I was not as good a writer as others.
But I've come I've come to understand in my old
age that it's it's actually just a natural part for
some people, not everyone. The of the well, I know.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Somebody, Okay, they's psychopaths. If somebody, if somebody says, oh
I'm fine, I got no problem and everything I'm writing
is great, it doesn't stink. This doesn't stink. This stink
it is weird, then there's something very strange about that.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
And I'm not sure i'd want to read that person's work.
I mean, honestly, but I what what I think I
have worked on, that I've that I've tried to get
better at, and that I have gotten better at is
I don't let it shut me down. The same way
is that I is that I I take it more
as like, oh, of course you feel that way. It's
so normal. It's so normal. I normalize it right.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Writing through the fear of the stinks is what every
writer goes through.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, I just don't let it stop me. I think
that is the key. I don't let it stop me.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You have to schedule for me, I have to put
it on a schedule. It also helps to tell somebody, yeah,
will be done by.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
That's that's I've done a lot of that. I've also,
you know, done a lot of like I feel, I
fear I'm not going to write unless I make a
date with one of my writer friends. So we make
a date and we write in you know.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
In the same environment exactly, And.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
That has helped me a lot. If there's any people
listening who are going, like I can't get myself to write,
you make it. You make like a date. It's like
I can't get myself to take a walk. You know,
you make a date with a friend and you go.
You're both good. But it only really works if you
both want this, if you both want to be you know,
get more done, because it can also descend into just
(21:39):
let's let's just talk yeah and that and nothing wrong
with that, but you have you have to you have
to make.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Some promises being accountable.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Being accountable. I've got to say that I've done all
of this really imperfectly. I want to make sure everyone
listening understands that I've never felt particularly great at this.
I feel like I've gotten better at it, which you
can do and like, for instance, Stephen Schwartz who obviously
an amazing person who I wrote Wicked with, like he
has an amazing work ethic. Steel Shorts is scarily brilliant
(22:10):
in every way, but he's also an amazing work ethic.
And I met I started working with him, and you know,
I guess about in nineteen ninety eight about and At
has really influenced me because you know, he would he
just would push. Yeah, it influenced me a lot, and
that having people in my life who had a better
(22:32):
work ethic than me.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
With tennis players, it is exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That, you know. And I made that joke one time.
He was being honored somewhere and I couldn't go, but
I made a little video and I said, he's made
me a better tennis player and I don't even play tennis,
and he actually does play tennis, so it made him laugh.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I recently attended a show where you and Paul did
a It wasn't monologue, but.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Just we stood up and did stuff that we had written.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Right, and it was He was really funny and you
were really funny, and it was both pieces felt polished,
pretty well polished.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Oh definitely.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I did not feel like, oh this is we're gonna
we're gonna see if the wording's right. The wordings were
pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I don't like to stand up and say things that
han't haven't been polished, if you know what I mean.
Like like maybe when I was twenty two in a
comedy group, we would we would do. But even then
we would we were, we would work on it before
we would present it. You know, still to do that.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I know that you have the bug to be a
performer and you love it, and you're like me, like,
I'll show up to do anything.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I love that. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, you don't get asked enough. We need to be
asked more. People watching when you're casting. You should cast us.
Some things will show up on time. We will know
our lines. We won't be a problem. We'll we'll you know,
we might even pitch a line that you like. We
don't know, but you should ask us something and we
won't haggle over the price all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
We'll pay you.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yes, exactly, nobody. It's one of those things. Were just like,
cast me, cast me, I'll do definitely. But that's so much.
It is so much fun to be a performer. It's
freeing in such a different way. It's such a different
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, it's it's well what I've noticed being on on
Mike Sure's set this past this past week with Morgan
and Morgans Hacket and Mike Sure and all those amazing
people and Ted Danson, who I'd never met before. What amazing,
What an amazing person? Yeah and masterful, uh what he does.
(24:30):
What I noticed trying to do my my little acting
moments was I, as a writer who writes for actors,
I constantly forget how hard it is what they do.
And the people that I've been working with, who are
you know, world class Because I've gotten really lucky about
the actress I've worked with. You know, they're working on
(24:52):
a very high level. But it's really what they do
is really tricky and I and it's really hard and
takes a lot, and it's important for me as a
writer to remember, you know, I'm always thinking about what
an actor needs, you know, to be to make the scene,
what will make the scene more interesting. But it's also
(25:12):
you know, just to have that respect for like.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Well, you know, the writers should have to go to
acting class totally. Everybody should have to do it just
to see how hard it is, totally it's not just
I'm going to read back the words you wrote. You
have to process it and make it yours and make
it real and do all this stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
That's really there's like eight different things going on at least,
And I do feel like that gave me a lot
all the not that I'm a great actor, I'm not,
but that all the acting experience I've had has really
fed my writing. No, no, there's without a question.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
My new my new thing now that you've mentioned is
because Ted Dancing is so beloved, I'm going to start
a feud with Ted Dancer. I'm going to be I'm
going to call him out. You're an asshole and I
hate you, and I dare you to come on the
show and let's let's hatch it out. Let's just hatched
out every episode. I'm just gonna hag call out.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Who does he think he is? I know, being so
Ted Dancing?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
People like him? People like him? You know what I don't.
I don't like that dance. Let's get back to wicked.
So okay, so wicked gigantic, This gigantic phenomenon that has
been a phenomenon for thirty years. I don't even know
how long on Broadway.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It's been for twenty two I think for.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Twenty two years, and audiences have loved it, and it's been.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
It's been all over the world, became a.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Movie, and there's been many casts and many different things.
But you got the opportunity to adapt the book into
the musical.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah. Yeah. In other words, it was a novel. It
is It is a novel called Wicked by Gregory maguire
and Stephen Schwartz had this brilliant idea that he wanted
to make it into a Broadway music and I had
coincidentally recently met with him because a mutual friend at
Disney had thought, well, maybe the two of you could
(27:09):
write Disney movie music, you know, animated musical together. And
I was very thrilled to meet him. I had met
him once before, briefly in that program. He had come
one day to speak. He's only like eight years older
than me, but he's you know, he started when he
was like twenty one years old, so he's like a
you know, in my wonder, he's a master, and he
(27:30):
is a master what he does. And you know, Stephen
knows we'll forget more about musicals than most people will
ever learn, you know, he just knows a lot about him.
So at that little lunch at Disney with the with
the Disney with the Mickey Mouse ears on the butter,
you know, I was just dazzled just to be near him, honestly.
(27:50):
And he started talking about this novel Wicked and saying
it's just such a shame that it's not available, because
that's such a great idea for a musical. And I
was like, Wicked, Yeah, I haven't read it, but I've
heard about it. And he said, well, when Hee, it's
such a shame because they've already started their their you know,
Demi Moore's company at Universal is already started. They already
(28:12):
have a making a script. And then he called we parted.
I didn't think anything of it. And then many a
few months later he called me out of the blue
and he just said, well, you're you're not gonna believe this.
I think I've convinced Mark Platt to just to not
(28:33):
make it into a non sink because they were going
to make it into a non musical movie, and to
let me make it into a Broadway show. A lot
had to happen. He had to go to Gregory and
explain what he wanted to do and get Gregory's blessing.
And one of the great things in our situation is
that Stephen was wise enough to know that he needed
(28:54):
to ask Gregory. He said, listen, if we if you
say yes to this, the way in which it has
to work is when you and I go off and
do it. And this isn't going to be like the
your novel, right, you know? And he said to him,
we promised to stay true to the spirit of your novel,
but it will not be identical to your novel, because
(29:16):
how could it be? And you know, the thing, the
thing about the movie that's been fascinating is the timing
of the movie. You know, I've had I had so
many people, people who sort of knew me and people
who barely knew me, would come up with me, to
me at parties or whatever, many many times and say,
why what happened? Why is there no movie yet?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
What?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
What's we feel so sorry for you? Like, you know,
it was like as if some tragedy had happened, or
that you know that word development, hell, which is is
not what happened. What happened was the movie wasn't ready yet, right,
and I wasn't ready yet Stephen was ready yet and
it wasn't quite taking shape. But that doesn't mean that
we were in development. Hell, we were have a process.
(30:01):
We were learning a lot, and then when John Chu
came in, it was like getting on a rocket. It
was like and John Chu was like, yeah, now we're
gonna let's make Let's make the movies and let's make
it be two movies. And let you know, John Chu
was like filled with ideas and you know, a powerhouse, right,
and that's when it all came together.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
How did the two movies idea? Like, how did that
come to be?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
It was really organic and it took forever to make
the real decision. We thought about it for so long,
but it really had to do with the fact that
we wanted to be able to get you know, a
lot of it had to do with we didn't want
to take away anything that that existed in Wicked that
people loved, like we didn't want one of his songs
to be missing from those the movie, right, But yet
(30:46):
we wanted to add. We wanted we wanted to be
able to take more time with certain moments. We wanted
to be able to show things that you didn't you
couldn't see on it on stage. We wanted to show
a lot of stuff that you couldn't see on stage.
All that's time. Then we were also hoping Steve when
we were at some new songs for it, how is
all this going to be cramped into one movie after
a while. And for a long time I fought it,
(31:09):
I really did. I was one of the people that
were going, I don't know, because I really felt like,
is it going to feel like the same experience. The
big ingredient was John Chu because John Hue was so
he felt confident. You know when someone when someone that
talented looks at you and they go, I know, I
know how to do this. You know, you really feel like, oh, well,
(31:29):
if you know how to do this, I'm gonna put
my faith in you.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Crazy rich Asians is almost a musical. I mean everything
he makes is a musical.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, well, this is his DNA. You know, he's he
was a dancer. He also was filming dancers a lot.
He has a he's very musical person. Yeah, he's you know,
he's pretty. He's he's pretty fucking talented.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
I would say, so, I would say, And he's a
great person. All his movies are great and what he
did with Wicked is beautiful. It's beautiful. It's like literally gorgeous.
The movies fantastic. I cannot wait for part two. I'm
very excited about it. Thank you, and uh I love
part one.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Thank you. That was me yes in a in a
very tall wig.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
When I was watching the movie, all I could imagine
was the craft Service must be great on that. If
they're doing this kind of beautiful set design and everything
so good, I bet the craft Service is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
They were nice people, That's what I remember. They were very,
very friendly, sweet people. Everyone was everyone was happy to
be there.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, they probably knew they were making something special. I
think that was the vibe.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, to use so.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Many years in the mating, so many people waiting for
you to happen.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I mean, this is such cliche, but timing is everything,
as we know, and the timing felt so right. It
felt so right, And you know, if the timing had
been different, we wouldn't have been able to have Arianna
and Cynthia. We think of that, I mean, how can
you think of that movie without Ariane and Cynthia. So
it's like or those movies. I mean, I'm still I'm
(33:03):
still I'm still trying to yeah. Yeah, And also he's
still John still you know editing the movie.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Short Don't Be Alone with JG.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
How did you take the story from the book and
decide what was going to be the play?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, it started with you know, Stephen lives in on
the east coast, on the West coast, so it started
with long phone conversations. We would have these lengthy conversations,
and whenever we were on each other's coast, we would
get together and we would talk and talk and talk
about the things in the book that we knew we
had to change, had to keep the things that in
(33:57):
the book that we felt were just well, I'll just
say them. You know, his Gregory came up with. I mean,
the whole idea of Wicked is pretty genius, right, and
there are things that he came up with that are
that are just amazing, Like the idea that that the
Wicked Witch of the West and Glinda the Goodwitch were
college roommates. You know, that's in his book. I didn't
(34:19):
come up with that. That's an amazing idea. When I
read that, I was just like, you know, to me
that well to Stephen too, that was gold.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
There's a book called Grendel about a dragon.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Were you the misunderstood You feel for that monster.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
The misunderstood literary figure who is portrayed as the villain. Yeah,
when we dig deep inside, we realized, oh no, there
are no monsters. There are no villains. They're just people
who have stories, who have.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Exactly and that's part of the deep appeal of Wicked.
And also in our case, in our story, this person
is used and you know, the fact that their skin
is a different color as an odd color is used
to try to prove that there's that they're that they're evil.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
And that could be a metaphor for something else on it.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Think about it. I don't know if I don't know
if it ever happens.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
In real life. I don't. I don't think it's possible
that happens in real life. Anyway, It's cool that you
made this sweet little story.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
It's funny because when the second one comes out, you know,
I think a lot of the people that have seen
the movie never saw the Broadway show, you know, because
they yeah, and so they don't they don't realize what's
coming and it, you know, it gets a lot more political,
and it gets a lot more serious because the two
women are involved in something that's very serious.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Sure, I know as you're writing it, you guys are
working on it together. Did Steven say, here are the
moments where I think a song might tell the story
better than.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
What we would talk that through and we would we
would say, you know, he had some he had some
ideas from even before you know, on his own, before
he even came to me and officially wanted me to
with him, he had already given some thought and he
had this idea which was so wonderful, which is that
it would start with a version of Ding Dong The
Witch is Dead. You know, it was like another version
(36:11):
of that. And so so I had a head start
because he came in with a lot of thoughts and
he said, you know, he said to me from the
very beginning, he said, at the end of act one,
she should fly for the first time. And you know,
so that's like we had these stakes in the ground
of what the story the story shape, right, and but
(36:33):
we we literally we just talked and talked through every
moment and and you know, I found I showed this
to him a while ago. I found a very very
early treatment that we had and it's things changed, but
I would. I would call it declunkified, like we always
had the same story basically, but I we we together,
(36:58):
we found ways to tell the story more and more
and more hopefully elegantly. And this took forever, as you
can imagine, right, Yeah, it just took forever, and it took,
and it was it was. It was upsetting at times,
and then doing the movie one of the things that
was that would sometimes drive me crazy, although it was
it was a lucky break to be able to actually
(37:21):
adapt the movie, you know, not be cut out of
the process. But I would, I would. I'd be saying
to myself, wait a minute, Wait a minute. I solved this, like,
you know, twenty years ago, like you know why. It
was almost like a weird science experiment, like why do
I have to now resolve like every beat of this story?
(37:43):
But I did.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
It's amazing, and it's I'm so glad that it's it's
so beautiful and so glad that it's it's so well received.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Thank you. It's been amazing the reception and the way
people have responded from their hearts. It's been We could
not have imagined it. We could not have imagined it.
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, so let's talk for a moment about Paul, about
my husband. Okay, So now, Paul Dooley one of the
great actors, comedic actors and wonderful person, improviser.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And amazing improviser.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
An amazing improviser. I've seen him do it many years
and he is fantastic. Now you and he have this
amazing life of romance, and you have this incredible age
gap between.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yes, we have a big, big fat age gap of
twenty six years, and.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
It seemingly doesn't matter. How does it not matter?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
You know, I don't want to be I don't want
to be flippant. I mean it, there's ways in which
it has. It hasn't taken away from our love for
each other. We've been married for this fall to be
forty one years. We're very compatible, but there are ways
in which, you know, we speak different languages at times.
(38:50):
You know the age gap has come and gone. You
might almost say you're.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Talking about the Mills Brothers and you're talking about the Beatles.
I mean, what's the issue?
Speaker 1 (38:59):
My music that I would love is not his music.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
My wife and I are almost exactly the same age,
and the music I love is not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Well, see that makes me feel better almost, like you know,
there's ways in which I think I sometimes liken it
too if if and we also are culturally you know,
he he was born in West Virginia from a really
small town, comes from a really I'm not going to
say impoverished because they weren't starving or anything, but they
had nothing.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
You know, they didn't have nothing sounds pretty impoverished.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
What they didn't have indoor plumbing. Okay, Paul didn't have
indoor plumbing. Paul didn't have a doctor that he would
go see, you know what I mean, Like Paul didn't
have books in his house. We're such different people. I
always say, like, it doesn't seem on paper like it
would work, but it has just worked.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Don't put it on paper, just keep it off the paper.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, Paul's paper trained, so luckily it all it all,
it's all going to be okay. But we, I think,
not just love each other. We do love each other,
but we genuinely enjoy each other's company, and I we
just make each other laugh. I would say that that
that that's a cliche about marriage makes you or him, Well,
(40:15):
definitely Paul does. Because Paul's whole world is jokes. His
whole way of communicating his jokes, and he doesn't really
want to live in a world that isn't you know,
funny in that way. But he But if I make
Paul laugh, so Paul doesn't really laugh, you know the
way A lot of comics don't laugh, right, you know
they don't. They don't laugh, Their expression doesn't change. They
(40:36):
just say that's funny. So Paul is like that. He's
very repressed and he's very he doesn't laugh. So if
I make him laugh, I feel it is a great
victory and I feel really funny. And I have gotten
funnier living with him, I think because I've tried. I've
wanted to make him laugh. So I think that muscle.
You know, maybe I can't play tennis, but I have
(41:00):
it can make jokes. I can make jokes.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah, it's now time for the listener mail. Now it's
time for listener man. Dear Jay and guest, how important
is it to leave a legacy of your work behind
you when you die? Is it more important to do
that than to simply achieve happiness and being a kind person?
(41:23):
This is from Stuart.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Oh, I feel like it's just much more important to
be a kind person. I think kindness is the most
important thing of all, I really do. I think, especially now,
our world has gotten really, really harsh and cruel. And
I guess the world always was harsh and cruel, right,
but it's obvious now, and I think kindness. You know,
(41:49):
I don't know even what means a legacy.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
I mean, that's a good question.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I'm not really that interested in that.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
I mean, I would think that Wicked, you know, we're
talking about my so called life, would talk about some
of these things that that have had legs that people
It means something to a lot of people, and Wicked
will mean something to a lot of people for many
many years.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Well, that's certainly a blessing in my life.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
But it will and not this is not diminishing your work.
At some point sometime it will be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Everything goes away, exactly.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
It will be forgotten, and what's left over maybe is
the good and the good will that.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
It Yeah, that it created, hopefully it.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Added to the love of the world or whatever that is.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
But that's that you don't want to I mean, I
don't want to be part of something that creates more
more havoc and more pain. I mean, if possible, right,
I want, I do want to create.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
It don't work again. But yes, I totally.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
It makes me laugh every time because he's so nice.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
I know, he's so nice. He has you fooled, he
has you fooled. He is rotten to the core.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
He is a really nice guy.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
But yeah, I don't I feel like we'll all be forgotten.
I feel like and it's okay, and it's fine.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I mean, what makes me feel good is knowing that
I gave everything I had. I don't want to feel
like I phoned anything in. I don't want to feel
like I kind of let myself or my team down.
I want to feel like I gave. That's why I
feel great about the Wicked movies, honestly. I mean, everything
about the Wicked Movies, for me and on a personal level,
has to do with me knowing that even times when
(43:31):
it was scary or hard, or or or just was
I was overwhelmed by it, I just never stopped giving,
and so did everybody else. By the way, I'm not
alone in that, and I think that's what That's what
I that's my legacy.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
I like to give what I can. But I also
don't want to. As I've grown up, become a little older,
I've become less insistent.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
On your way. Me too, because when I talk about
showing up, part of showing up it's also going let
other people talk listen really hard, you know, let realize
that the thing, the idea that you heard just now
from John Chu that you go like, I don't know,
I don't you when you in a few hours or
(44:16):
in a day or two, you're going to realize, Oh,
of course, of course that I get it. I get it.
You know that it's it's going to feel discordant at
first because it didn't come from you, you know, but
it's like I've I've really you know, it's humbling. It's
humbling to realize that, you know, it's okay to just
to just showing up can mean that you don't talk
too much sometimes you know.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Everything other people like plenty.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
I excuse myself from that too. If I'm not talking?
Am I really alive?
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Now? You're alive? You're well, that's okay, Well, Stuart, that's
your answer to that. Now we're going to do the
moment of joy. Moments of joy. I can't be your family,
and it can't those are the big ones. You can't
I know, it can't be your family, it can't be work, okay,
But what else brings you joy?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Can you have two things?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Okay? So one is that ever since ever since the pandemic,
you know, we we completely stopped, of course, look like
everyone else going to the movies. And Paul and I
used to go to the movies like a lot, like
at least once a week. And so after all those
(45:32):
all those long time, that those many many many months
of never going to the movies, when you start to
be able to go to the movies again, I and
it's not about how good the movie is for me.
It's like, like often we go with my cousin and
his wife who we're close with. I just love, I
just and we don't go that often anymore.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
That's the thing.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
It's like, now it's this special, special thing, right, and
it's it's it gives me a feeling of childlike happiness
to be able to go to the movies. And I
can't believe that I used to take it so for granted,
because now it's this, it's it's actually like a big
event to me.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
It is an event. And and but I mean you know,
sometimes I just I went to go see the Phoenician
Scheme or whatever the West. Oh yeah, yeah, And it
was like three people in the theater. It wasn't an event.
It was it felt a little sad, a little sad.
It was like I should have stayed in my living room.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And yeah. But sometimes you go and it's like really exciting.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Okay, so what's the other joyous moment of joy that
you have.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
This also sounds a little silly, but when I take
a shower, I I marvel at it because I sometimes
think to myself, this is really great. You know, there's
people that can't take a shower. There's a lot of
people that don't have running water. And the fact that
I live basically in a spot with a hot and
(46:55):
cold running water and all this soap and all these
like nice fluffy towels, it makes me feel so lucky
and I I really love taking a shower. Plus, as writers,
we know often you can get a really good idea
in the shower. Of course, water is very conducive. Running
water is very relaxing, of course, but it's very conducive
(47:16):
to your subconscious kind of coming up with things. So
sometimes I've found that it's just this marvelous place where
I feel. I just come out of that shower and
I feel wonderful.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
I imagine any activity that's not writing is conducive to
good story ideas because you're freeing yourself of.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
The like driving, like doing the dishes, making soup. Do
you know how to make the soup?
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Like?
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah? Like taking off? Yeah, I do feel I love
those things anyway, for the just the There's something about
doing something that that is easy to do, but it
has a practical, helpful aspect to it, like doing the dishes.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Think about the shower is a hot shower, hot water
coming out of the pipe.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Oh my god, it's a miracle.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
We middle class and lower class Americans live better than
most kings have lived for the last, you know, thousands
and thousands of years.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Jay, I think about this, I really do, and I
feel so. I feel so. I love showers and I
love the I'm great. I'm grateful, grateful for my showers.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Well, that's fantastic. I should try a shower sometimes. I've
not done it yet, But I.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Don't don't rush in anything. See yea, take it slow.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
We have we I'm told that we have one in
my house, so we'll see. Well, Waitny, this has been
a delight.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Thank you, thank you. It's really fun for me, a.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Big fan, been of your work. But when I think
I've got to know you at the on the Writers Guild,
yeah foundation, and you were found out that you're actually
a good person, which is also really nice. So it's
been great getting to know you even better here today
and uh and you're so kind to come and I'm
loved it. Looking forward to more of your work and
(49:01):
more just hanging out. This has been fantastic and thank
you for being here. Don't be a loaners or whatever
we call you, whatever the listeners of the show a
loone bones, we love you. Thanks for being here and
thanks for watching. And please feel free to email me
at dbawjk at gmail dot com if you have a
suggestion or a comment or a questioner listener mail question.
(49:25):
I appreciate it. And if you can spend any time
in this week talking to somebody in person and having
a conversation, your life would be so much better and
so with there, so take the time to try and
do that and I'll see you next time. All right,
bye bye, don't be alone with j
Straw Hut Media. Hi, I'm Winnie Holtsman and I'm on
Don't Be Alone with j Cogan, a podcast Don't.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Be Alone with jj Cogan.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Thanks for coming to Don't Be Alone with Ja Cogan.
So glad to have you back. This week, we have
a really fun guest, an amazing writer. I'll tell you
more about her coming up, but first I just want
to thank everybody for subscribing to the show, for liking
the show, for writing reviews of the show. All of
that helps, especially on YouTube. If you click subscribe on YouTube,
(00:39):
then angel gets his wings. Every time you subscribe, a
bell goes off and an angel gets his wings. Right
to me at dbawjk at gmail dot com. That's stands
for don't be Alone with j Cogan dbawjk at gmail
dot com. With your compliments or complaints or listener questions.
I want all of that, and I love to have
(00:59):
a kinda with you to just say hi. It'd be
really great. And one last thing, there is a substack
a Jake Cogan Don't Be Alone with Jake Hogan's substack.
Get on that. It's free and there's going to be interesting,
fun additional bonus material that you can get only there.
So if you like the show and are a fan,
let's start a community. Let's start hanging out and make
(01:22):
this thing even bigger so I can make it a cult.
That's a good gig if you're a cult leader. So
today's show, we have the Great Winnie Holsman as our guest.
Winnie is a talented writer also an actress. She's written
so many things. She's most famous for writing Wicked, the
(01:43):
movie and the play Wicked musical. She's also famous for
Once and Again. She worked on My soul called Life
thirty something so great. TV Huge is one of her shows.
She's really smart, really talented, and I know her for
I don't know twenty years, and she's always been adorable
(02:05):
and she's always been great, and she's never seem like
one of Hollywood's top writers, but because of how she
carries herself as just a very sweet person, but she
turns out to be one of Hollywood's top writers. And
we're going to ask her about her creative process. We're
going to ask her how she chooses to work, how
she fights her fear. We're going to talk about the
(02:27):
process of making Wicked. We're going to talk about her
amazing talented husband Paul Julie, who's a really talented actor,
and her daughter savannaho's really talented writer. And we're just
gonna really delve into all things Winnie Holtsman and you'll
love her this like I do. Right after this, don't
be alone with jjiga from Winnie Holtsman, thank you so
(02:53):
much for being here. You're legendary writer, a legendary writer
who has created amazing TV shows, including My so called life,
which is you know, people still to this day, yeah,
probably come up to you and hug you and say
thank you for that TV show.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well. I had a really fun experience just just a
few days ago where this past week I was doing
a small acting role, yes on Mike Sure's new Showide There.
I was playing this small part that I, you know,
got hired to do, which is like a miracle because
I don't usually get hired to do acting, and a
(03:34):
lot of the writing of the writers were coming up
to me with very very kind and lovely, you know,
little words to me. And it didn't you know, first
of all, I know, I think I have this in
common with you. I really love other writers. I love
my fellow writers, so just really fun to meet them,
first of all, but that that they had such feelings
(03:59):
of of love for my show, you know, in mental of.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Special show, it was. It was a special show for sure.
I mean it's one of those things where it has
been off the air.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
For thirty years.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Thirty years and it's still on people's lips as one
of the great shows and people still talk about it,
and it really, you know, it had a very.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It made an impact.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
It did.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
It did, and.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Even when we were making it, like the crew and
the drivers and just people that you thought of as
not as emotional, which is a stereotype. It's not right
for me to even think that, Well.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
It's kind of true speaking are not the are not
the weepiest of people.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Those people were expressing to me. I remember when we wrapped,
as the pilot was wrapping, people were coming up to
me those kinds of guys right and saying thugs, right, thugs,
and they were they were expressing how how they felt
about the show right, And it made me feel like,
oh wow, if we did keep doing this right, this
(05:03):
could could potentially reach people in a nice way, in
a meaningful way.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I've worked on play shows where the teams don't come
up to you and compliment you. I've had it, believe Well,
that's good. I do believe it. I do believe it.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
But that's a real that's a great compliment. You know,
you want, you want, You certainly want your fellow writers.
I mean that that feels wonderful, But you also want
people who maybe don't always let them let their heart
be on their sleeve. You know, say like that really
meant a lot to me.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Well, interestingly enough, it's it's a show about a high
school girl, right, but it's but it's you don't have
to be It's one of those show you don't have
to be a high school girl to involve yourself in it.
Involve yourself in the story and feel the pain that
she's feeling or the joy she's feeling. Are the stories.
I could say the same thing about thirty something and
some of these other shows that sort of really sort
(05:53):
of captured the imagination of people. You know, I watched
thirty something, and I don't think I was thirty.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Something, right, you couldn't have been.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I was about married people, and none of that stuff
was stuff I was going through. But I was into
the story.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
You know, these two guys, Marshall Hurstkovitsinette Wick. They they
did something that was pretty outrageous, audacious. You could say
they just wanted to do a TV show that they
that they felt was their lives and that's there's something
about that that it sounds like such a simple idea.
(06:28):
I mean, now I guess it is immortal.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
It's what all TV executives are asking for you.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, but back then that was kind of audacious, this
idea of their just stepping up and going, we're just
we know that people don't think of this as what
a TV show is supposed to be about, but we
just think it's interesting and we're we're going to do it.
And there was something about that level of honesty and
(06:55):
rashness that really that really changed me.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I read Edswicks's book, which was pretty great book, and
he talks about, you know, the goal of that show
is trying to be as honest as they could and
take things from their life as they could, and anything
that even struck slightly hacky or clammy, they would try
to avoid as much as they could. But if it
(07:22):
was real, yeah, they'd still do it.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
I was gonna say about Ed and his book is
edswicks book is that I would recommend it to anyone
listening who's interested in trying to do this.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, it's really worthwhile.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, because it has a lot he has a lot
of good advice.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Actually he comes at it from a very sort of
artistic point of view, but also that he wants his
shows to challenge society, like it's not just ye, he's
not just writing the truth. He's writing the truth and
will this is this a subject that is going to
(08:02):
try to push society in the right direction? Yeah, I
mean that's a big challenge. I don't I'm much more like,
is it true? Am I interested in it? Because I
don't really believe that much of our work is pushing
society in the right direction or not.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So I don't know. I mean I think the you know,
this is a bit of a cliche, but you know,
the personal has become so political. I mean, in other words,
like if you think about what happened recently tragically in
this country, just on the subject of abortion. You know,
the way when I was growing up, by the time
I hit college, Roe v. Wade had happened, and there
(08:39):
was this feeling of like you that if you accidentally
got pregnant and you didn't want to be. That didn't
have to either destroy your life or put you in
a dangerous criminal situation. It didn't have to be a
scary disaster. It could actually be something that you could
just handle. And the fact that that got rolled back
(09:00):
and stolen away in my lifetime is shocking to me
on a personal level, for sure. And it's a political
issue quote unquote, but it's not a political issue. It's
you know, when when I think about just you know,
in my own life, you know, my whole my life.
You know, when I had my abortion, my life would
(09:21):
have taken a completely different turn if I had not
been able to have a safe, legal abortion in New
York City, where nobody looked at me funny, nobody tried
to talk me out of it. I was I could afford.
It wasn't even expensive. Uh, you know, that was blessing
in my life.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Of course, That's.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
How I was able to do the rest of my life, honestly.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
So, but even if you're not going to become one
of the world's greatest writers, if you just want to
work at Target, you still should have the choice of
what you want to do with your life. And how
you want to live. And that's the shocking part. What's
truly shocking now is that women's especially aren't fighting to
get this. You know, that we aren't fighting successfully to
(10:06):
get this back somehow.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Well, I mean a lot, there's a lot of women
who are fighting.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I hope, I hope. I mean, I'm obviously politically trying
to fight a lot of things that are happening. But
it's just so much.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
There's so much. But you have to I mean, I
I don't mean to say you have to. I mean,
you don't have to do anything. But it's like what
I find for myself is I try to just find
places where I think I can be of use or
I think I can do some good because it is
like that. You know, now I'm gonna sound like such
a I don't know, but there is that Talmutek I
(10:38):
think saying in Judaism that if you save one life,
you save the world. That's right, yeah, And that is
a very meaningful idea to me that that goes into
my writing and also into anything I might do, you know,
socially in terms of trying to help people in the world.
You know, it's it's not quantity It's it's really not
(10:59):
about like how big of how big a splash can
you make? You know, It's about like just trying to
trying to be used in some way for a greater good,
even if it's just with one person or time, you know,
you know, And that's how I think about my writing too.
It's like, well, that's how I think about my Soul
called Life. You know, Like when when My Soul called
Life was taken off the air after nineteen episodes, you know,
(11:22):
they were well, first of all, they were saying things like,
you know, well it's only nine million a week, you know,
and you know, think what that would that would be
like now. But I mean, you know, when I was
growing up on Long Island, nine million people watching my
show every week, that sounds very successful. So it's like
I had to re refigure my whole way of thinking
(11:42):
about my career, my success, what I believed in. And
it was really great because I realized, like I'm jumping
around a lot. But Cameron Crow, who I love, has
this great line in Jerry Maguire, which is a movie
I love, where he says, I wish you my kind
of success. And that's what I learned from the whole.
(12:03):
That's one of the big things I've learned from the
whole my so called life experience. I wished myself my
kind of success. It wasn't about how long it was
on the air. It wasn't about how many million, how
many millions you know who cares.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Well, You're talking about something which is what's in your
control and what's not in your control.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
The stuff that's in your control, you try to do
your best and if people like it and love it, great,
and if it affects one person or one hundred people, great.
None of that's in your.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Control exactly, not in my control and not my business.
But truly not my business. My business is you know
that script giving it at.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
My all, you know, but let's talk about that. The
idea of as a writer giving what you think is,
I don't know, a valuable story. I don't want to
say wisdom, but a valuable story to people to see.
We don't talk about masses of people. We talk about individuals.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I've said this once and while to you students. If
I was asked, like, let's say you're you're in an
elevator with someone, if you just walk in and you're
just standing AXT this person. Then you both get out
of your floors. You could look at that person like, oh,
that's just a business man, or oh that's just a
delivery person, or whatever the stereotyp is. But if you
got stuck in that elevator with that person, you would
(13:20):
very soon be sitting on the floor together, you know,
looking into each other's eyes. You'd realize that you were
really so alike.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Hand come, I would just I would decide who's the
king of the elevator, and I'd make it happen for me.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
It would be I hope it's a delivery person. I
hope they have food, right exactly, But you know what
I mean, Like, when you get to that deeper place,
everyone has so much in common. Everyone is so much alike.
And that's what I what I think of is what
I'm doing when I'm writing. You know, I'm I'm gonna
if it's going to bring people together, not all people.
(14:01):
Doesn't have to be all people. We already said that,
we covered that, But it's like, if it's going to
bring people together and give them a sense of communing
and give them a sense that they're not so alone,
that's going to be Because you went to that deeper
place where we all live.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Don't be alone with j J cogin.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
My show, don't be alone with Ja Cogan. It's always
about you, somebody smart helping me with my problems. My
problem is I want to do fifteen different things all
the time, right, and I want to pread this, and
I want to write that, and I only have so
much energy and time, and that I have so many
different projects that I want to do in your heart,
in my heart that I'm excited about.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Then how do you narrow down what it is? Do you? As?
That requirement for you is that this story has to
be a value or it just has to.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Be I mean that value thing. I don't know what
that even means, like in a way that that's a
that's something I would just take off the table. What
I would, what I would what I go to is
what's the one that I think about the most, What's
the one that keeps that keeps stirring around in my
head where I where I feel like I feel like
(15:23):
I'm already getting ideas about it, or even let's say
you're not getting ideas, because that's my story A lot
of times, Believe me, a lot of times I feel like, gee,
I'd love to pay someone for an idea, Like what's
an idea? I don't I forget even how to get one.
But but there's this sense that I have of like
I can't let go of it. It's that it's that
(15:43):
broke back mountain thing. I can't quit, you, like I
can't like like the this, this, this pilot that I've
written that I'm hoping Claire Danes will do, that I'm
hoping HBO will do, but we don't know. The apple
Bound Curse. This is something I got the idea for,
or it's got to be it's got to be twenty
five twenty twenty five years ago originally, but it has
(16:07):
morphed and morphed and changed and changed and so and
of course I was doing other things, so it got
left to the side for and I had like all
these like sort of slightly incoherent, you know, stacks of
notes about it. I never had a treatment. I never
had a pilot because I still didn't understand it right.
(16:30):
I didn't understand how I was gonna write it. I
didn't and I would sit and my daughter, who's also
a writer, who I love so much, and also is
a really good writer, and we've written together. She's my
first reader, and she just kind of understands me and
is great at this. One day, I was just lying
on my bed, literally despondent, really yes, saying to her,
(16:52):
and this has happened to me with other projects too.
I mean, I'm I'm a bit of a case. But
I was like lying there, going I don't know what
to do. I don't want to walk away from it
because I feel like I still love it, but I
don't think it's really a show. And I don't understand
how this part of it. I won't say what it is,
but this element and this element. I had these two
(17:13):
elements and they did not they didn't seem connected into
one show.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
And yet you knew they were connected.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I didn't want to do the show unless they were connected.
And my daughter, because of all the reasons, I just said,
she's really good at this and she really knows me,
and and she doesn't even remember the moment this happened,
but she said, what if this character was this instead
of this? She created a whole new character of what
(17:41):
it could be. And the second she said it, I
went it was just what people say the cliche a
light bulb, and I just was like a key in
a lock. And after that, I believe, like, I don't
know if HBO will do this Forcocta show. I know
Claire wants to do it. I know I want to
do it, but I know now well, I hate to say,
(18:02):
I know, I get so nervous. I get so nervous,
But I feel like I have a good shot at
being able to write it now because it makes sense
to me as a story. So I understand it. I
definitely understand it. And I and I wasn't there for
you know, a long, really long time. So what I
guess what I'm trying to say is that some instinct
(18:23):
in me wouldn't let go of it.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Right. But to me, I'm writing something, and almost always
the thing I'm not writing is the thing that's a.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Little bit of that always looks that to me is
something else that to me is it always seems like
it would be easier. The other thing always seems easier
than the thing you're doing. You know. I like, I'll
be watching TV and I'll go, why can't I think
of an idea like that? I could write that really well?
But I've got to think of these crazy ideas that
(18:52):
like don't make any sense and are bad, you know,
and that people will make fun of because they're so bad.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
Like I spend a lot of time with my friends
making fun of your writing. So it's weird that you
knew about that, that we said we have coffee.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
That is such a coincidence. Yeah, but I guess that
you know I'm very sensitive, so I guess I sensed it.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Well. I'm surprised of the picture of you sort of
being stuck and lying on your bed forlorn.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It's not like that's an unusual situation.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
I surprised that because you come from a theatrical theater
background like you Hanston and Masters, but also from a
comedy group background where ideas have to be explored that's
where they are.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
There's a lot of fear that I live with, and
I've lived with it for so long that it's become
like a like a part of me, and it's not.
It doesn't. It is weird to say, but the fear
doesn't scare me like it used to. Like, in other words,
I used to really think that because I felt so
frightened most of the time about writing that it meant
(19:56):
that I was not as good a writer as others.
But I've come I've come to understand in my old
age that it's it's actually just a natural part for
some people, not everyone. The of the well, I know.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Somebody, Okay, they's psychopaths. If somebody, if somebody says, oh
I'm fine, I got no problem and everything I'm writing
is great, it doesn't stink. This doesn't stink. This stink
it is weird, then there's something very strange about that.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
And I'm not sure i'd want to read that person's work.
I mean, honestly, but I what what I think I
have worked on, that I've that I've tried to get
better at, and that I have gotten better at is
I don't let it shut me down. The same way
is that I is that I I take it more
as like, oh, of course you feel that way. It's
so normal. It's so normal. I normalize it right.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Writing through the fear of the stinks is what every
writer goes through.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, I just don't let it stop me. I think
that is the key. I don't let it stop me.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
You have to schedule for me, I have to put
it on a schedule. It also helps to tell somebody, yeah,
will be done by.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
That's that's I've done a lot of that. I've also,
you know, done a lot of like I feel, I
fear I'm not going to write unless I make a
date with one of my writer friends. So we make
a date and we write in you know.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
In the same environment exactly, And.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
That has helped me a lot. If there's any people
listening who are going, like I can't get myself to write,
you make it. You make like a date. It's like
I can't get myself to take a walk. You know,
you make a date with a friend and you go.
You're both good. But it only really works if you
both want this, if you both want to be you know,
get more done, because it can also descend into just
(21:39):
let's let's just talk yeah and that and nothing wrong
with that, but you have you have to you have
to make.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Some promises being accountable.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Being accountable. I've got to say that I've done all
of this really imperfectly. I want to make sure everyone
listening understands that I've never felt particularly great at this.
I feel like I've gotten better at it, which you
can do and like, for instance, Stephen Schwartz who obviously
an amazing person who I wrote Wicked with, like he
has an amazing work ethic. Steel Shorts is scarily brilliant
(22:10):
in every way, but he's also an amazing work ethic.
And I met I started working with him, and you know,
I guess about in nineteen ninety eight about and At
has really influenced me because you know, he would he
just would push. Yeah, it influenced me a lot, and
that having people in my life who had a better
(22:32):
work ethic than me.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
With tennis players, it is exactly.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That, you know. And I made that joke one time.
He was being honored somewhere and I couldn't go, but
I made a little video and I said, he's made
me a better tennis player and I don't even play tennis,
and he actually does play tennis, so it made him laugh.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I recently attended a show where you and Paul did
a It wasn't monologue, but.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Just we stood up and did stuff that we had written.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Right, and it was He was really funny and you
were really funny, and it was both pieces felt polished,
pretty well polished.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Oh definitely.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I did not feel like, oh this is we're gonna
we're gonna see if the wording's right. The wordings were
pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I don't like to stand up and say things that
han't haven't been polished, if you know what I mean.
Like like maybe when I was twenty two in a
comedy group, we would we would do. But even then
we would we were, we would work on it before
we would present it. You know, still to do that.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
I know that you have the bug to be a
performer and you love it, and you're like me, like,
I'll show up to do anything.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I love that. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, you don't get asked enough. We need to be
asked more. People watching when you're casting. You should cast us.
Some things will show up on time. We will know
our lines. We won't be a problem. We'll we'll you know,
we might even pitch a line that you like. We
don't know, but you should ask us something and we
won't haggle over the price all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
We'll pay you.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yes, exactly, nobody. It's one of those things. Were just like,
cast me, cast me, I'll do definitely. But that's so much.
It is so much fun to be a performer. It's
freeing in such a different way. It's such a different
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, it's it's well what I've noticed being on on
Mike Sure's set this past this past week with Morgan
and Morgans Hacket and Mike Sure and all those amazing
people and Ted Danson, who I'd never met before. What amazing,
What an amazing person? Yeah and masterful, uh what he does.
(24:30):
What I noticed trying to do my my little acting
moments was I, as a writer who writes for actors,
I constantly forget how hard it is what they do.
And the people that I've been working with, who are
you know, world class Because I've gotten really lucky about
the actress I've worked with. You know, they're working on
(24:52):
a very high level. But it's really what they do
is really tricky and I and it's really hard and
takes a lot, and it's important for me as a
writer to remember, you know, I'm always thinking about what
an actor needs, you know, to be to make the scene,
what will make the scene more interesting. But it's also
(25:12):
you know, just to have that respect for like.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Well, you know, the writers should have to go to
acting class totally. Everybody should have to do it just
to see how hard it is, totally it's not just
I'm going to read back the words you wrote. You
have to process it and make it yours and make
it real and do all this stuff.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
That's really there's like eight different things going on at least,
And I do feel like that gave me a lot
all the not that I'm a great actor, I'm not,
but that all the acting experience I've had has really
fed my writing. No, no, there's without a question.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
My new my new thing now that you've mentioned is
because Ted Dancing is so beloved, I'm going to start
a feud with Ted Dancer. I'm going to be I'm
going to call him out. You're an asshole and I
hate you, and I dare you to come on the
show and let's let's hatch it out. Let's just hatched
out every episode. I'm just gonna hag call out.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Who does he think he is? I know, being so
Ted Dancing?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
People like him? People like him? You know what I don't.
I don't like that dance. Let's get back to wicked.
So okay, so wicked gigantic, This gigantic phenomenon that has
been a phenomenon for thirty years. I don't even know
how long on Broadway.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It's been for twenty two I think for.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Twenty two years, and audiences have loved it, and it's been.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
It's been all over the world, became a.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
Movie, and there's been many casts and many different things.
But you got the opportunity to adapt the book into
the musical.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah. Yeah. In other words, it was a novel. It
is It is a novel called Wicked by Gregory maguire
and Stephen Schwartz had this brilliant idea that he wanted
to make it into a Broadway music and I had
coincidentally recently met with him because a mutual friend at
Disney had thought, well, maybe the two of you could
(27:09):
write Disney movie music, you know, animated musical together. And
I was very thrilled to meet him. I had met
him once before, briefly in that program. He had come
one day to speak. He's only like eight years older
than me, but he's you know, he started when he
was like twenty one years old, so he's like a
you know, in my wonder, he's a master, and he
(27:30):
is a master what he does. And you know, Stephen
knows we'll forget more about musicals than most people will
ever learn, you know, he just knows a lot about him.
So at that little lunch at Disney with the with
the Disney with the Mickey Mouse ears on the butter,
you know, I was just dazzled just to be near him, honestly.
(27:50):
And he started talking about this novel Wicked and saying
it's just such a shame that it's not available, because
that's such a great idea for a musical. And I
was like, Wicked, Yeah, I haven't read it, but I've
heard about it. And he said, well, when Hee, it's
such a shame because they've already started their their you know,
Demi Moore's company at Universal is already started. They already
(28:12):
have a making a script. And then he called we parted.
I didn't think anything of it. And then many a
few months later he called me out of the blue
and he just said, well, you're you're not gonna believe this.
I think I've convinced Mark Platt to just to not
(28:33):
make it into a non sink because they were going
to make it into a non musical movie, and to
let me make it into a Broadway show. A lot
had to happen. He had to go to Gregory and
explain what he wanted to do and get Gregory's blessing.
And one of the great things in our situation is
that Stephen was wise enough to know that he needed
(28:54):
to ask Gregory. He said, listen, if we if you
say yes to this, the way in which it has
to work is when you and I go off and
do it. And this isn't going to be like the
your novel, right, you know? And he said to him,
we promised to stay true to the spirit of your novel,
but it will not be identical to your novel, because
(29:16):
how could it be? And you know, the thing, the
thing about the movie that's been fascinating is the timing
of the movie. You know, I've had I had so
many people, people who sort of knew me and people
who barely knew me, would come up with me, to
me at parties or whatever, many many times and say,
why what happened? Why is there no movie yet?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
What?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
What's we feel so sorry for you? Like, you know,
it was like as if some tragedy had happened, or
that you know that word development, hell, which is is
not what happened. What happened was the movie wasn't ready yet, right,
and I wasn't ready yet Stephen was ready yet and
it wasn't quite taking shape. But that doesn't mean that
we were in development. Hell, we were have a process.
(30:01):
We were learning a lot, and then when John Chu
came in, it was like getting on a rocket. It
was like and John Chu was like, yeah, now we're
gonna let's make Let's make the movies and let's make
it be two movies. And let you know, John Chu
was like filled with ideas and you know, a powerhouse, right,
and that's when it all came together.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
How did the two movies idea? Like, how did that
come to be?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
It was really organic and it took forever to make
the real decision. We thought about it for so long,
but it really had to do with the fact that
we wanted to be able to get you know, a
lot of it had to do with we didn't want
to take away anything that that existed in Wicked that
people loved, like we didn't want one of his songs
to be missing from those the movie, right, But yet
(30:46):
we wanted to add. We wanted we wanted to be
able to take more time with certain moments. We wanted
to be able to show things that you didn't you
couldn't see on it on stage. We wanted to show
a lot of stuff that you couldn't see on stage.
All that's time. Then we were also hoping Steve when
we were at some new songs for it, how is
all this going to be cramped into one movie after
a while. And for a long time I fought it,
(31:09):
I really did. I was one of the people that
were going, I don't know, because I really felt like,
is it going to feel like the same experience. The
big ingredient was John Chu because John Hue was so
he felt confident. You know when someone when someone that
talented looks at you and they go, I know, I
know how to do this. You know, you really feel like, oh, well,
(31:29):
if you know how to do this, I'm gonna put
my faith in you.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Crazy rich Asians is almost a musical. I mean everything
he makes is a musical.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, well, this is his DNA. You know, he's he
was a dancer. He also was filming dancers a lot.
He has a he's very musical person. Yeah, he's you know,
he's pretty. He's he's pretty fucking talented.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
I would say, so, I would say, And he's a
great person. All his movies are great and what he
did with Wicked is beautiful. It's beautiful. It's like literally gorgeous.
The movies fantastic. I cannot wait for part two. I'm
very excited about it. Thank you, and uh I love
part one.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Thank you. That was me yes in a in a
very tall wig.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
When I was watching the movie, all I could imagine
was the craft Service must be great on that. If
they're doing this kind of beautiful set design and everything
so good, I bet the craft Service is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
They were nice people, That's what I remember. They were very,
very friendly, sweet people. Everyone was everyone was happy to
be there.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, they probably knew they were making something special. I
think that was the vibe.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, to use so.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Many years in the mating, so many people waiting for
you to happen.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
I mean, this is such cliche, but timing is everything,
as we know, and the timing felt so right. It
felt so right, And you know, if the timing had
been different, we wouldn't have been able to have Arianna
and Cynthia. We think of that, I mean, how can
you think of that movie without Ariane and Cynthia. So
it's like or those movies. I mean, I'm still I'm
(33:03):
still I'm still trying to yeah. Yeah, And also he's
still John still you know editing the movie.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Short Don't Be Alone with JG.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
How did you take the story from the book and
decide what was going to be the play?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Well, it started with you know, Stephen lives in on
the east coast, on the West coast, so it started
with long phone conversations. We would have these lengthy conversations,
and whenever we were on each other's coast, we would
get together and we would talk and talk and talk
about the things in the book that we knew we
had to change, had to keep the things that in
(33:57):
the book that we felt were just well, I'll just
say them. You know, his Gregory came up with. I mean,
the whole idea of Wicked is pretty genius, right, and
there are things that he came up with that are
that are just amazing, Like the idea that that the
Wicked Witch of the West and Glinda the Goodwitch were
college roommates. You know, that's in his book. I didn't
(34:19):
come up with that. That's an amazing idea. When I
read that, I was just like, you know, to me
that well to Stephen too, that was gold.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Right.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
There's a book called Grendel about a dragon.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Were you the misunderstood You feel for that monster.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
The misunderstood literary figure who is portrayed as the villain. Yeah,
when we dig deep inside, we realized, oh no, there
are no monsters. There are no villains. They're just people
who have stories, who have.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Exactly and that's part of the deep appeal of Wicked.
And also in our case, in our story, this person
is used and you know, the fact that their skin
is a different color as an odd color is used
to try to prove that there's that they're that they're evil.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
And that could be a metaphor for something else on it.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Think about it. I don't know if I don't know
if it ever happens.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
In real life. I don't. I don't think it's possible
that happens in real life. Anyway, It's cool that you
made this sweet little story.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
It's funny because when the second one comes out, you know,
I think a lot of the people that have seen
the movie never saw the Broadway show, you know, because
they yeah, and so they don't they don't realize what's
coming and it, you know, it gets a lot more political,
and it gets a lot more serious because the two
women are involved in something that's very serious.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Sure, I know as you're writing it, you guys are
working on it together. Did Steven say, here are the
moments where I think a song might tell the story
better than.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
What we would talk that through and we would we
would say, you know, he had some he had some
ideas from even before you know, on his own, before
he even came to me and officially wanted me to
with him, he had already given some thought and he
had this idea which was so wonderful, which is that
it would start with a version of Ding Dong The
Witch is Dead. You know, it was like another version
(36:11):
of that. And so so I had a head start
because he came in with a lot of thoughts and
he said, you know, he said to me from the
very beginning, he said, at the end of act one,
she should fly for the first time. And you know,
so that's like we had these stakes in the ground
of what the story the story shape, right, and but
(36:33):
we we literally we just talked and talked through every
moment and and you know, I found I showed this
to him a while ago. I found a very very
early treatment that we had and it's things changed, but
I would. I would call it declunkified, like we always
had the same story basically, but I we we together,
(36:58):
we found ways to tell the story more and more
and more hopefully elegantly. And this took forever, as you
can imagine, right, Yeah, it just took forever, and it took,
and it was it was. It was upsetting at times,
and then doing the movie one of the things that
was that would sometimes drive me crazy, although it was
it was a lucky break to be able to actually
(37:21):
adapt the movie, you know, not be cut out of
the process. But I would, I would. I'd be saying
to myself, wait a minute, Wait a minute. I solved this, like,
you know, twenty years ago, like you know why. It
was almost like a weird science experiment, like why do
I have to now resolve like every beat of this story?
(37:43):
But I did.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
It's amazing, and it's I'm so glad that it's it's
so beautiful and so glad that it's it's so well received.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Thank you. It's been amazing the reception and the way
people have responded from their hearts. It's been We could
not have imagined it. We could not have imagined it.
That's amazing.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, so let's talk for a moment about Paul, about
my husband. Okay, So now, Paul Dooley one of the
great actors, comedic actors and wonderful person, improviser.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
And amazing improviser.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
An amazing improviser. I've seen him do it many years
and he is fantastic. Now you and he have this
amazing life of romance, and you have this incredible age
gap between.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yes, we have a big, big fat age gap of
twenty six years, and.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
It seemingly doesn't matter. How does it not matter?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
You know, I don't want to be I don't want
to be flippant. I mean it, there's ways in which
it has. It hasn't taken away from our love for
each other. We've been married for this fall to be
forty one years. We're very compatible, but there are ways
in which, you know, we speak different languages at times.
(38:50):
You know the age gap has come and gone. You
might almost say you're.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Talking about the Mills Brothers and you're talking about the Beatles.
I mean, what's the issue?
Speaker 1 (38:59):
My music that I would love is not his music.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
My wife and I are almost exactly the same age,
and the music I love is not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
Well, see that makes me feel better almost, like you know,
there's ways in which I think I sometimes liken it
too if if and we also are culturally you know,
he he was born in West Virginia from a really
small town, comes from a really I'm not going to
say impoverished because they weren't starving or anything, but they
had nothing.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
You know, they didn't have nothing sounds pretty impoverished.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
What they didn't have indoor plumbing. Okay, Paul didn't have
indoor plumbing. Paul didn't have a doctor that he would
go see, you know what I mean, Like Paul didn't
have books in his house. We're such different people. I
always say, like, it doesn't seem on paper like it
would work, but it has just worked.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Don't put it on paper, just keep it off the paper.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Well, Paul's paper trained, so luckily it all it all,
it's all going to be okay. But we, I think,
not just love each other. We do love each other,
but we genuinely enjoy each other's company, and I we
just make each other laugh. I would say that that
that that's a cliche about marriage makes you or him, Well,
(40:15):
definitely Paul does. Because Paul's whole world is jokes. His
whole way of communicating his jokes, and he doesn't really
want to live in a world that isn't you know,
funny in that way. But he But if I make
Paul laugh, so Paul doesn't really laugh, you know the
way A lot of comics don't laugh, right, you know
they don't. They don't laugh, Their expression doesn't change. They
(40:36):
just say that's funny. So Paul is like that. He's
very repressed and he's very he doesn't laugh. So if
I make him laugh, I feel it is a great
victory and I feel really funny. And I have gotten
funnier living with him, I think because I've tried. I've
wanted to make him laugh. So I think that muscle.
You know, maybe I can't play tennis, but I have
(41:00):
it can make jokes. I can make jokes.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah, it's now time for the listener mail. Now it's
time for listener man. Dear Jay and guest, how important
is it to leave a legacy of your work behind
you when you die? Is it more important to do
that than to simply achieve happiness and being a kind person?
(41:23):
This is from Stuart.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Oh, I feel like it's just much more important to
be a kind person. I think kindness is the most
important thing of all, I really do. I think, especially now,
our world has gotten really, really harsh and cruel. And
I guess the world always was harsh and cruel, right,
but it's obvious now, and I think kindness. You know,
(41:49):
I don't know even what means a legacy.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
I mean, that's a good question.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
I'm not really that interested in that.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
I mean, I would think that Wicked, you know, we're
talking about my so called life, would talk about some
of these things that that have had legs that people
It means something to a lot of people, and Wicked
will mean something to a lot of people for many
many years.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Well, that's certainly a blessing in my life.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
But it will and not this is not diminishing your work.
At some point sometime it will be forgotten.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Everything goes away, exactly.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
It will be forgotten, and what's left over maybe is
the good and the good will that.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
It Yeah, that it created, hopefully it.
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Added to the love of the world or whatever that is.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
But that's that you don't want to I mean, I
don't want to be part of something that creates more
more havoc and more pain. I mean, if possible, right,
I want, I do want to create.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
It don't work again. But yes, I totally.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
It makes me laugh every time because he's so nice.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
I know, he's so nice. He has you fooled, he
has you fooled. He is rotten to the core.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
He is a really nice guy.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
But yeah, I don't I feel like we'll all be forgotten.
I feel like and it's okay, and it's fine.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
I mean, what makes me feel good is knowing that
I gave everything I had. I don't want to feel
like I phoned anything in. I don't want to feel
like I kind of let myself or my team down.
I want to feel like I gave. That's why I
feel great about the Wicked movies, honestly. I mean, everything
about the Wicked Movies, for me and on a personal level,
has to do with me knowing that even times when
(43:31):
it was scary or hard, or or or just was
I was overwhelmed by it, I just never stopped giving,
and so did everybody else. By the way, I'm not
alone in that, and I think that's what That's what
I that's my legacy.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
I like to give what I can. But I also
don't want to. As I've grown up, become a little older,
I've become less insistent.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
On your way. Me too, because when I talk about
showing up, part of showing up it's also going let
other people talk listen really hard, you know, let realize
that the thing, the idea that you heard just now
from John Chu that you go like, I don't know,
I don't you when you in a few hours or
(44:16):
in a day or two, you're going to realize, Oh,
of course, of course that I get it. I get it.
You know that it's it's going to feel discordant at
first because it didn't come from you, you know, but
it's like I've I've really you know, it's humbling. It's
humbling to realize that, you know, it's okay to just
to just showing up can mean that you don't talk
too much sometimes you know.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Everything other people like plenty.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
I excuse myself from that too. If I'm not talking?
Am I really alive?
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Now? You're alive? You're well, that's okay, Well, Stuart, that's
your answer to that. Now we're going to do the
moment of joy. Moments of joy. I can't be your family,
and it can't those are the big ones. You can't
I know, it can't be your family, it can't be work, okay,
But what else brings you joy?
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Can you have two things?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Okay? So one is that ever since ever since the pandemic,
you know, we we completely stopped, of course, look like
everyone else going to the movies. And Paul and I
used to go to the movies like a lot, like
at least once a week. And so after all those
(45:32):
all those long time, that those many many many months
of never going to the movies, when you start to
be able to go to the movies again, I and
it's not about how good the movie is for me.
It's like, like often we go with my cousin and
his wife who we're close with. I just love, I
just and we don't go that often anymore.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
That's the thing.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
It's like, now it's this special, special thing, right, and
it's it's it gives me a feeling of childlike happiness
to be able to go to the movies. And I
can't believe that I used to take it so for granted,
because now it's this, it's it's actually like a big
event to me.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
It is an event. And and but I mean you know,
sometimes I just I went to go see the Phoenician
Scheme or whatever the West. Oh yeah, yeah, And it
was like three people in the theater. It wasn't an event.
It was it felt a little sad, a little sad.
It was like I should have stayed in my living room.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
And yeah. But sometimes you go and it's like really exciting.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
Okay, so what's the other joyous moment of joy that
you have.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
This also sounds a little silly, but when I take
a shower, I I marvel at it because I sometimes
think to myself, this is really great. You know, there's
people that can't take a shower. There's a lot of
people that don't have running water. And the fact that
I live basically in a spot with a hot and
(46:55):
cold running water and all this soap and all these
like nice fluffy towels, it makes me feel so lucky
and I I really love taking a shower. Plus, as writers,
we know often you can get a really good idea
in the shower. Of course, water is very conducive. Running
water is very relaxing, of course, but it's very conducive
(47:16):
to your subconscious kind of coming up with things. So
sometimes I've found that it's just this marvelous place where
I feel. I just come out of that shower and
I feel wonderful.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
I imagine any activity that's not writing is conducive to
good story ideas because you're freeing yourself of.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
The like driving, like doing the dishes, making soup. Do
you know how to make the soup?
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Like?
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Yeah? Like taking off? Yeah, I do feel I love
those things anyway, for the just the There's something about
doing something that that is easy to do, but it
has a practical, helpful aspect to it, like doing the dishes.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Think about the shower is a hot shower, hot water
coming out of the pipe.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
Oh my god, it's a miracle.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
We middle class and lower class Americans live better than
most kings have lived for the last, you know, thousands
and thousands of years.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
Jay, I think about this, I really do, and I
feel so. I feel so. I love showers and I
love the I'm great. I'm grateful, grateful for my showers.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Well, that's fantastic. I should try a shower sometimes. I've
not done it yet, But I.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Don't don't rush in anything. See yea, take it slow.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
We have we I'm told that we have one in
my house, so we'll see. Well, Waitny, this has been
a delight.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Thank you, thank you. It's really fun for me, a.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Big fan, been of your work. But when I think
I've got to know you at the on the Writers Guild,
yeah foundation, and you were found out that you're actually
a good person, which is also really nice. So it's
been great getting to know you even better here today
and uh and you're so kind to come and I'm
loved it. Looking forward to more of your work and
(49:01):
more just hanging out. This has been fantastic and thank
you for being here. Don't be a loaners or whatever
we call you, whatever the listeners of the show a
loone bones, we love you. Thanks for being here and
thanks for watching. And please feel free to email me
at dbawjk at gmail dot com if you have a
suggestion or a comment or a questioner listener mail question.
(49:25):
I appreciate it. And if you can spend any time
in this week talking to somebody in person and having
a conversation, your life would be so much better and
so with there, so take the time to try and
do that and I'll see you next time. All right,
bye bye, don't be alone with j
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