February 20, 2025 • 22 mins
Think having the best idea guarantees success? Think again.
On this episode of the Don’t Do That podcast, Kelly Waltrich and Brian Portnoy, CEO of Shaping Wealth, explore why great ideas alone aren't enough and how to ensure your message actually lands with your audience.
Brian shares hard-earned insights from his 30-year journey from academia to entrepreneurship, revealing why everything—whether you like it or not—is ultimately sales.
Kelly and Brian discuss:
- 02:56 The myth that the best idea or catchiest phrase always wins
- 05:48 How the "attention economy" has changed the game
- 09:32 Why we're living in the busiest, noisiest time ever—and what that means for ensuring your message stands out
- 12:40 How Shaping Wealth evolved from an idea to a business serving the global wealth industry
- 16:23 The importance of systems over goals in sales success
- 19:27 Finding the right partnerships to complement your strengths
- 21:20 The reality check: It takes 10-12 touchpoints to drive decisions today
Connect with Kelly Waltrich:
Connect with Brian Portnoy:
About Our Guest:
Brian is one of the world’s leading experts on the psychology of money. He has written multiple bestselling books, including The Geometry of Wealth, and has 20+ years of experience as an investor and educator in the hedge fund and mutual fund industries. He is a CFA Charterholder and earned a PhD at the University of Chicago.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Portnoy (00:01):
Others don't see the world the way that you do.
You might be very much alignedin lots of different ways. But
when you put your ideas outthere, whether it be in an
academic context, but really,you know, for purposes today, in
a in a business context, you'vegot to make it compelling to
(00:24):
others, and there's better andworse ways of doing that. And I
think it took me the first halfof my career to recognize that
everything is sales.
Kelly Waltrich (00:34):
Welcome to the don't do that podcast. I'm Kelly
Waltrich, CEO and Co Founder ofIntention.ly. And like me, this
show is no fluff and no BS, justsmart advice to help you learn
from the best and level upfaster. So what are we not doing
today? Let's find out.
(00:54):
Hi everyone, and welcome to thedon't do that podcast. I am your
host, Kelly Walter, and I couldnot be more thrilled today to
have this special guest I havewith me, Brian Portnoy, CEO of
shaping wealth. And he isspecial to me for two reasons.
One, he is one of our favoriteclients, unintentionally, but
more importantly, when youembark on the entrepreneurial
(01:15):
journey, you need somebody totalk to. You need somebody to
bounce ideas off of. You needsomebody to share your wins and
your losses and your successesand your failures, and I'm lucky
enough that we have found eachother to be able to do those
things. So welcome to the show.
Brian, I'm really happy to behere. Awesome. All right. Well,
you know, the premise of theshow is that we learn better
from our failures than from ourwins. So let's kick it off and
(01:36):
tell us. Bry, what are we? Whatare we not doing today?
Brian Portnoy (01:43):
We are not buying into the belief that the best
idea wins. We are not buyinginto the belief that the work
speaks for itself. And so Ithink so that's a negative spin,
but the premise of the questionis negative. The positive
(02:04):
perspective on it is that salesmatter, and that in life,
there's a sales component toeverything, whether it's work or
creation or love or really anydimension to life. You know,
(02:25):
best ideas don't always win. Thecatchy phrase doesn't always
win, that it's got to connectwith others, and that there's an
element of empathy that mightnot be easy to demonstrate some
(02:45):
of the time, but that we need tolean into if we want people to
really grab on to to buy intothe things that matter to us.
Kelly Waltrich (02:57):
Oh my gosh, as a marketer, you're hitting me at
my core when you say the bestidea doesn't always win, the
catchiest phrase doesn't alwayswin, because it is a constant
battle with clients to get themto realize that being clear and
being consistent and being, youknow, thoughtful sometimes, is
just so much better than tryingto knock it out of a park with a
home run. But so this feels likeit's coming from a place of of
(03:21):
deep learning for you. So tellme about, like, what? What made
you choose the idea that thebest idea doesn't always win as
our topic for today?
Brian Portnoy (03:30):
Yeah. I mean, I really appreciate the premise of
of the question, and, in turn,the podcast, so it actually gave
me occasion, especially here atthe beginning of a new year to
reflect on a number of things.
And the thing is, I've been inthe ideas business for 30 plus
years now because, you know, Istarted out in an academic
career. I did a doctor at theUniversity of Chicago, and I
(03:53):
wrote and I published and Idebated and I communicated, and,
you know, it was an ideas game,and I don't think I really
understood it at the time. Idon't think I fully understand
it now, to be honest, butespecially going back 30 plus
years, when you know I waswriting a master's thesis, then
(04:16):
writing a dissertation,publishing papers, you want to
believe that if you are logicaland rigorous, if you put
together something supercompelling that has evidence
associated with it, or it's justsort of a creative flourish
where it's like, wow, thatthat's like the perfect framing
(04:36):
of it that is less than half thebattle. And the word I was going
to say was unfortunately. So letme lean into where my heart was,
unfortunately. That's that.
That's just half the battle. AndI say unfortunate because others
don't see the world the way thatyou do. You might be very much
(04:59):
a. Defined in lots of differentways. But when you put your
ideas out there, whether it bein an academic context, but
really, you know, for purposestoday, in a in a business
context, you've got to make itcompelling to others. And
there's better and worse ways ofdoing that. And I think it took
(05:20):
me the first half of my careerto recognize that everything is
sales, and that sales is askill, and that you can choose
to learn it or not learn it. Youcan choose to find the parts of
the sales process that you enjoyand might be good at, and
hopefully kind of not do, slashoutsource the parts that you
don't enjoy and aren't good at,but you can never drop the idea
(05:44):
that everything is sales.
Kelly Waltrich (05:48):
It is so true, you know. And in my initial
episode of Don't do that, Imentioned that I wish I had a
fact checker for financialservices. And I think about this
all the time, because you'reright, the people who are best
at selling themselves are theones that are shining, and then
there are so many people who aredoing really smart, really
amazing, really thoughtful workthat don't have that particular
(06:10):
skill that then don't get thespotlight. And to me, you know,
that's why we work with some ofthe companies that we work with,
because we want them to have avoice otherwise. But I feel like
we see that all day long in ourspace, where the loudest company
wins, the company with the mostsales people win, and sometimes
that just isn't, that just isn'twhat should be happening. It's
(06:33):
not in the best interest of theadvisors we're serving. Are the
clients that they're serving.
And I imagine that you see a lotof that day to day, yeah.
Brian Portnoy (06:40):
And there's different ways to think about
it, different ways to reflect onwhat you just said. It might be
a volume game. It might be, hey,we've got a sales force and in,
you know, the attention economy,you know, shout out to Kyla
Scanlon, yeah, you just need it.
You know, we're beyond eyeballs,right? We, you know, if you
think about going back 2020,plus years in the website
(07:04):
business, hey, like, how manyeyeballs did I? Did I capture?
But this is really sort of deepmind share, and maybe you do
that by having an army of peopletelling some story, and
ultimately your audience, youknow, sort of relinquishes, and
they buy into what you got. Youknow, that's, that's, that's not
a particularly appealingapproach to me. What I find more
(07:26):
appealing is really thinkinglong and hard about, what does
somebody else need from you?
What, what do they value? And isthere a match between the idea
and the product that you've putforth, and what's going to drive
(07:49):
something of importance to them?
And it's hard as a businessowner, as an entrepreneur, as an
idea creator, to recognize thatsometimes I just don't get where
my potential customer is comingfrom, and it's on me to do the
work. Yeah, if anything, youknow, everybody is busy beyond
(08:09):
compare. We live in the busiestof times, the noisiest of times.
And so cutting through all ofthat and interrogating your own
value proposition so that youcan increase the odds that it
lands in the right way with theright audience. Is the heavy
lift here. And you know, I thinkit's shaping wealth. We have a
(08:32):
fantastic idea. I wrote a bookeight years ago called the
geometry of wealth. I coined theterm funded contentment, that
true wealth is the ability tounderwrite a meaningful life.
That is an idea that has had alot of legs. People hear that
and they're like, oh, that'ssomething I want. It captures
their imagination, but it iswoefully insufficient, from a
(08:52):
entrepreneurial point of view,to build a business on just the
idea. Because something I thinkyou learn in this seat is that
an idea is not a product, and aproduct is not a business,
right? And so as you go up thatchain, what are you going to do
to understand what yourpotential client or customer
(09:12):
needs, and then frame or reframeor even start from scratch with,
okay, how am I going to deliversomething that matters to them?
Kelly Waltrich (09:32):
So two things you said there hit me. One is
that we're in the busiest, thenoisiest time ever. It's wild,
and it's constantly evolving,right? Like the ways that we got
to our target audiences lastyear needed, need to be built
upon. This year, you can't sortof rest on your laurels. You
have to keep building and youhave to keep evolving. You have
to keep changing. Now we'readding podcasts, and we're
(09:52):
putting voices to blogs, andwe're doing more video and we're
going to more events, and it'sjust insane to keep up with. I
think that that's something thatour listeners really need to
think about, is that when you'rebuilding a brand, when you're
trying to get to your audience,it's something that you have to
constantly, constantly build onand constantly evolve. I think
you see that every day. I'vewatched you go through that
(10:14):
process as an entrepreneur overthe last couple years, which has
been really fun for me, and Isee others struggling with
trying to keep up with that.
Brian Portnoy (10:23):
Yeah, all true.
And, you know, I think about itoff. I think about a lot of
things, often in the context ofmy three kids, who are all young
adults, you know, 1820 and 22 sojust on that cusp where they're
in college, leaving college,entering college. And, you know,
I don't want them to go major insales, whatever that would mean,
but I do want them to understandthat whatever they are putting
(10:47):
into the world, if they wantedto make a difference in terms of
changing lives and inspiringothers, but also making a good
living and just making A highincome, you're going to have to
take the time to think aboutsort of, how does this land in
the lap of somebody who might ormight not be buying it, and by
(11:09):
buying it doesn't necessarilymean they're swiping a credit
card. It could just mean, oh,here's an idea or a program that
compels them to change the waythat they think about the world,
and that, in and of itself, is,is, is really, really powerful.
But yeah, sort of the kind ofhard nosed commitment to cutting
through, kind of this, the theidea that it's not ideas that
(11:34):
really win, it's it's sellingthem, I find a little
depressing.
Kelly Waltrich (11:42):
I know you do. I know, I know,
Brian Portnoy (11:45):
but I don't think I'm alone in that either. I
don't think I'm the only personthat wishes it were a little bit
different, but I do look at, youknow, firms and people in the
same industry, and some seem tohave much more traction than
others. I look at the tractionwe've gotten in our business,
(12:06):
and it seems to correlate prettyhighly to sort of leaning into
creating a very quicklyunderstandable value proposition
for the client, which has to becommunicated through a sales and
marketing process.
Kelly Waltrich (12:21):
Yeah, that's very true. Okay, so I watched
you evolve what that looks likefor shaping wealth this year.
You started this year with whatI think is the clearest vision
you had for what you're bringinginto the world. Do you want to
just give everybody a quickoverview of how you what that
looks like and how you came tothat over the last couple of
months,
Brian Portnoy (12:40):
couple months, couple years, more than a couple
years. Yeah, and it's funny,because internally, I'm pushing
myself and the team to thinkhard about this. I don't think
we'll ever, I don't think we'llever be done. I mean, we're not
selling, you know, cheeseburgerswhere, you know, you perfect the
(13:02):
recipe and you hope people loveit, and then you sell as many as
possible. You know, we're in aservices business. We're an
experiences business, whatever,whatever that means. I mean, the
the short of it is that westarted with, I started with
this idea of funded contentmentfor everyone. When I think about
my community, when I think aboutmy kids, I think about sort of
(13:24):
how hard it is, it is to get byfinancially, but that a lot of
the happiness we do or don't getin our financial lives is as
much or if not more aboutmindset than it is about the
exact numbers on your balancesheet. And that's that funded
contentment idea. Well, okay,people find that compelling, and
then they might want to take acourse or listen to a lecture,
(13:47):
hear me give a speech onsomething related to that, or
more broadly, this, this fieldof quote, unquote, behavioral
finance, which is a fancy termfor sort of the psychology of
money, again, ideas, withoutnecessarily a product or a
business. Fast forward to theselast few months. Kelly, you
know, the conversations we'vehad behind the scenes. You know,
(14:09):
ultimately, what I'm trying todo is be a service provider to
the Global Wealth industry.
There's hundreds and hundreds of1000s of financial advisors and
millions of professionals inthis space who are not only
trying to improve the lives oftheir clients, they're trying to
have a great career themselves.
And so, you know what I'verealized, and by the way, if we
(14:30):
had this conversation in six or12 or 24 months, I think the
narrative will change, becauseit's always changing a little
bit. What I've realized is that,you know, what we are is an
investment in their humancapital, and that this is, you
know, it's a, it's a peoplebusiness, which is kind of a
casual thing to say, but like ina more rigorous sense, you know,
we help people revalue theirhuman capital in order that they
(14:54):
can deliver better services andexperiences to their clients.
But also just have a great. Thecareer themselves, and the more
that we frame kind of our coreideas based in philosophy and
theology and all the great ideasthat I really love, that my team
is expert in and really love,but the more that we kind of
(15:16):
frame that in a way that I thinklands squarely, without the need
for much explanation right atthe doorstep of our customers
and potential customers, lifegets incrementally easier, so we
end up being a talent solutionfor an industry that's
struggling to attract, retain,motivate, and retain talent.
Kelly Waltrich (15:38):
Okay, so I just want to recap for a second. So
for everybody that's listening,Brian is telling us that what
we're not doing today is justbelieving that the best idea
wins. We are realizing that nomatter who you are, what your
role, what your career, whereyou sit in an organization,
entrepreneur or not, you are insales, and you need that skill
(15:59):
set. So Bri, just tell me howyou're taking that, taking your
own advice into 2025, what doesthat look like for you and your
team? How are you shifting theway you're thinking about
things? What advice do you havefor people who don't have this
as their their skin, their intheir toolkit today, in terms of
being able to get their ideasacross and influence people's
(16:21):
decisions. Yeah, so I don't know
Brian Portnoy (16:23):
if I'm quoting James clear, or James clear is
just kind of quoting, you know,received wisdom. But he says
something like, we don't rise tothe level of our goals, we fall
to the level of our systems. Andso I think, you know, and here
we're in a very in a businesscontext, I think processes and
workflow is everything thatthere is lots of space for
(16:48):
creative flourish. If I hadn'thad if my team doesn't have the
creative flourish, then whatwe're doing is a little bit
boring and maybe a little bitgray or flat. And so, you know,
the the great ideas that we havebring a rainbow of colors to the
conversation, but theconversation targeted toward
(17:10):
growing the business has to fallinto kind of a process. I mean,
in working with you, you know,I've realized that, yes, market
it. You know, you can have animagine a fabulous tagline, and
you can think about all thegreat companies around the world
that came up with that sloganthat you'll that you'll never
forget. And yeah, that doescapture hearts and minds a
(17:34):
little bit, for most people, formost firms, most of the time.
That's not the way it goes. Ithink the way it goes is that
you need to think about like,who's going to be receiving the
most value from what you'reproviding, and how do you
connect with them? So, you know,for us, we're, you know,
investing in sales resources,bringing on a salesperson,
(17:57):
figuring out our our CRM, whichis this point, CRM is a four
letter, four letter word. To me,yes, being just three letters,
um, although the more I talkedabout other founders and
entrepreneurs and owners abouttheir CRM, it seems like it's,
it's a good company or ineveryone's side. But, you know,
(18:19):
really thinking about andinstitutionalizing processes and
workflows so that you don't haveto think so damn hard every day
about making a compelling pitch.
You just look at the the waythat this has been effective for
others, the way that you've beenyou've seen it be effective for
(18:39):
yourself and your particularcontext. And you allocate, you
know, you allocate resources tothat so, so yeah, 2025, for me
and I, and we've put a lot ofthought and increasingly
resources into this is buyinginto the idea that you don't you
don't reach to the level of yourhopes and aspirations. You fall
(19:04):
to the level of your workflowand processes and systems. And I
find that terribly boring. Iknow you do. I did. I rather be
spending my time reading orwriting or teaching, but I've
also chosen to build a company,and it's going well, so I think
I should keep going, and thereare ways to do that. Yeah,
Kelly Waltrich (19:27):
I think, you know, at the end of the day,
when you look at founders partand who they choose to partner
with, there's always, usuallysomeone that's more sales and
marketing inclined and somebodythat's more operationally
inclined. On the tech side, it'slike the CTO COO and then the
CRO kind of coming together asbusiness partners. And I feel
like I get that more. I get thatmore and more all the time. And
(19:49):
you know, my Tina is my partner,and we are dead opposites of
each other for a reason, and weget along swimmingly well
because she wants to do thethings that I'm terrible at, and
I want. Do the things that she'sterrible at. And so I think
that's part of it too, right?
You want to, you want to teach,and you want to read, and you
want to build and you want towrite. And so you have to find,
you have to find the person whogets up in the morning every day
(20:10):
about processes and workflows sothat they can compliment you in
that way. And I think that wouldbe a winning, winning
combination, for sure. And we'vemade progress.
Brian Portnoy (20:20):
We've made progress. We've made some really
good progress in recent monthsalong those ways. But you know,
to to your bigger point, and youknow to the people, you know, to
the audience that's that'slistening to this. I think
there's a kind of a realopportunity to reflect on the
way that works for you, becausewe all know, you know, countless
(20:42):
people running lots of differentcompanies, and nobody does it
the the right way. I mean, Ispent the first 15 plus years of
my career on the moneymanagement side of things,
especially evaluating, you know,fund managers and investing in
them. And you realize thatthere's no one right way to
invest, but there's a right wayfor you. I think that pertains
to sales and marketing as well.
There's no one right way.
(21:05):
There's not sort of the bookthat you have to follow, but
there's a number of methods,many of them tested and proven,
that you can lean into becauseit feels right to you like that
becomes an, you know, kind of acreative expression in of
itself.
Kelly Waltrich (21:21):
I love that. All right, everybody. Thank you so
much for joining today. We haveBrian Portnoy, my dear friend,
reminding us that skill thatsales is a skill set that we all
need the best idea doesn'tabsolutely win every time. It's
unfortunate, but it is the hardtruth. And just to let you all
know, what I'm hearing in thespace is 10 to 12 touch points
(21:42):
to get people to make adecision. So as you're thinking
about your sales process, you'rethinking about your marketing
process, we have some work to doto get the attention of the
folks that we're trying toreach. So Brian, I really
appreciate you joining today.
This is a wonderfulconversation, and I'll see you
soon. Thank
Brian Portnoy (21:55):
you so much. This is great, cool.
Kelly Waltrich (22:00):
Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed
today's show, subscribe to benotified when new episodes
become available, and pleaseconsider giving us a five star
review on Apple or Spotify. Thispodcast is sponsored by
intentionally, a financialservices growth engine design
consultancy and agency. If youwant to learn more, please email
(22:20):
me at Kelly at growintentionally.com. Thank you
again for listening and checkback to hear what we're not
doing next.
Unknown (22:29):
The information covered and posted represents the views
and opinions of the guest anddoes not necessarily represent
the views or opinions of KellyWaltrip. The content has been
made available for informationaland educational purposes only.
So.
Others don't see the world the way that you do.
You might be very much alignedin lots of different ways. But
when you put your ideas outthere, whether it be in an
academic context, but really,you know, for purposes today, in
a in a business context, you'vegot to make it compelling to
(00:24):
others, and there's better andworse ways of doing that. And I
think it took me the first halfof my career to recognize that
everything is sales.
Kelly Waltrich (00:34):
Welcome to the don't do that podcast. I'm Kelly
Waltrich, CEO and Co Founder ofIntention.ly. And like me, this
show is no fluff and no BS, justsmart advice to help you learn
from the best and level upfaster. So what are we not doing
today? Let's find out.
(00:54):
Hi everyone, and welcome to thedon't do that podcast. I am your
host, Kelly Walter, and I couldnot be more thrilled today to
have this special guest I havewith me, Brian Portnoy, CEO of
shaping wealth. And he isspecial to me for two reasons.
One, he is one of our favoriteclients, unintentionally, but
more importantly, when youembark on the entrepreneurial
(01:15):
journey, you need somebody totalk to. You need somebody to
bounce ideas off of. You needsomebody to share your wins and
your losses and your successesand your failures, and I'm lucky
enough that we have found eachother to be able to do those
things. So welcome to the show.
Brian, I'm really happy to behere. Awesome. All right. Well,
you know, the premise of theshow is that we learn better
from our failures than from ourwins. So let's kick it off and
(01:36):
tell us. Bry, what are we? Whatare we not doing today?
Brian Portnoy (01:43):
We are not buying into the belief that the best
idea wins. We are not buyinginto the belief that the work
speaks for itself. And so Ithink so that's a negative spin,
but the premise of the questionis negative. The positive
(02:04):
perspective on it is that salesmatter, and that in life,
there's a sales component toeverything, whether it's work or
creation or love or really anydimension to life. You know,
(02:25):
best ideas don't always win. Thecatchy phrase doesn't always
win, that it's got to connectwith others, and that there's an
element of empathy that mightnot be easy to demonstrate some
(02:45):
of the time, but that we need tolean into if we want people to
really grab on to to buy intothe things that matter to us.
Kelly Waltrich (02:57):
Oh my gosh, as a marketer, you're hitting me at
my core when you say the bestidea doesn't always win, the
catchiest phrase doesn't alwayswin, because it is a constant
battle with clients to get themto realize that being clear and
being consistent and being, youknow, thoughtful sometimes, is
just so much better than tryingto knock it out of a park with a
home run. But so this feels likeit's coming from a place of of
(03:21):
deep learning for you. So tellme about, like, what? What made
you choose the idea that thebest idea doesn't always win as
our topic for today?
Brian Portnoy (03:30):
Yeah. I mean, I really appreciate the premise of
of the question, and, in turn,the podcast, so it actually gave
me occasion, especially here atthe beginning of a new year to
reflect on a number of things.
And the thing is, I've been inthe ideas business for 30 plus
years now because, you know, Istarted out in an academic
career. I did a doctor at theUniversity of Chicago, and I
(03:53):
wrote and I published and Idebated and I communicated, and,
you know, it was an ideas game,and I don't think I really
understood it at the time. Idon't think I fully understand
it now, to be honest, butespecially going back 30 plus
years, when you know I waswriting a master's thesis, then
(04:16):
writing a dissertation,publishing papers, you want to
believe that if you are logicaland rigorous, if you put
together something supercompelling that has evidence
associated with it, or it's justsort of a creative flourish
where it's like, wow, thatthat's like the perfect framing
(04:36):
of it that is less than half thebattle. And the word I was going
to say was unfortunately. So letme lean into where my heart was,
unfortunately. That's that.
That's just half the battle. AndI say unfortunate because others
don't see the world the way thatyou do. You might be very much
(04:59):
a. Defined in lots of differentways. But when you put your
ideas out there, whether it bein an academic context, but
really, you know, for purposestoday, in a in a business
context, you've got to make itcompelling to others. And
there's better and worse ways ofdoing that. And I think it took
(05:20):
me the first half of my careerto recognize that everything is
sales, and that sales is askill, and that you can choose
to learn it or not learn it. Youcan choose to find the parts of
the sales process that you enjoyand might be good at, and
hopefully kind of not do, slashoutsource the parts that you
don't enjoy and aren't good at,but you can never drop the idea
(05:44):
that everything is sales.
Kelly Waltrich (05:48):
It is so true, you know. And in my initial
episode of Don't do that, Imentioned that I wish I had a
fact checker for financialservices. And I think about this
all the time, because you'reright, the people who are best
at selling themselves are theones that are shining, and then
there are so many people who aredoing really smart, really
amazing, really thoughtful workthat don't have that particular
(06:10):
skill that then don't get thespotlight. And to me, you know,
that's why we work with some ofthe companies that we work with,
because we want them to have avoice otherwise. But I feel like
we see that all day long in ourspace, where the loudest company
wins, the company with the mostsales people win, and sometimes
that just isn't, that just isn'twhat should be happening. It's
(06:33):
not in the best interest of theadvisors we're serving. Are the
clients that they're serving.
And I imagine that you see a lotof that day to day, yeah.
Brian Portnoy (06:40):
And there's different ways to think about
it, different ways to reflect onwhat you just said. It might be
a volume game. It might be, hey,we've got a sales force and in,
you know, the attention economy,you know, shout out to Kyla
Scanlon, yeah, you just need it.
You know, we're beyond eyeballs,right? We, you know, if you
think about going back 2020,plus years in the website
(07:04):
business, hey, like, how manyeyeballs did I? Did I capture?
But this is really sort of deepmind share, and maybe you do
that by having an army of peopletelling some story, and
ultimately your audience, youknow, sort of relinquishes, and
they buy into what you got. Youknow, that's, that's, that's not
a particularly appealingapproach to me. What I find more
(07:26):
appealing is really thinkinglong and hard about, what does
somebody else need from you?
What, what do they value? And isthere a match between the idea
and the product that you've putforth, and what's going to drive
(07:49):
something of importance to them?
And it's hard as a businessowner, as an entrepreneur, as an
idea creator, to recognize thatsometimes I just don't get where
my potential customer is comingfrom, and it's on me to do the
work. Yeah, if anything, youknow, everybody is busy beyond
(08:09):
compare. We live in the busiestof times, the noisiest of times.
And so cutting through all ofthat and interrogating your own
value proposition so that youcan increase the odds that it
lands in the right way with theright audience. Is the heavy
lift here. And you know, I thinkit's shaping wealth. We have a
(08:32):
fantastic idea. I wrote a bookeight years ago called the
geometry of wealth. I coined theterm funded contentment, that
true wealth is the ability tounderwrite a meaningful life.
That is an idea that has had alot of legs. People hear that
and they're like, oh, that'ssomething I want. It captures
their imagination, but it iswoefully insufficient, from a
(08:52):
entrepreneurial point of view,to build a business on just the
idea. Because something I thinkyou learn in this seat is that
an idea is not a product, and aproduct is not a business,
right? And so as you go up thatchain, what are you going to do
to understand what yourpotential client or customer
(09:12):
needs, and then frame or reframeor even start from scratch with,
okay, how am I going to deliversomething that matters to them?
Kelly Waltrich (09:32):
So two things you said there hit me. One is
that we're in the busiest, thenoisiest time ever. It's wild,
and it's constantly evolving,right? Like the ways that we got
to our target audiences lastyear needed, need to be built
upon. This year, you can't sortof rest on your laurels. You
have to keep building and youhave to keep evolving. You have
to keep changing. Now we'readding podcasts, and we're
(09:52):
putting voices to blogs, andwe're doing more video and we're
going to more events, and it'sjust insane to keep up with. I
think that that's something thatour listeners really need to
think about, is that when you'rebuilding a brand, when you're
trying to get to your audience,it's something that you have to
constantly, constantly build onand constantly evolve. I think
you see that every day. I'vewatched you go through that
(10:14):
process as an entrepreneur overthe last couple years, which has
been really fun for me, and Isee others struggling with
trying to keep up with that.
Brian Portnoy (10:23):
Yeah, all true.
And, you know, I think about itoff. I think about a lot of
things, often in the context ofmy three kids, who are all young
adults, you know, 1820 and 22 sojust on that cusp where they're
in college, leaving college,entering college. And, you know,
I don't want them to go major insales, whatever that would mean,
but I do want them to understandthat whatever they are putting
(10:47):
into the world, if they wantedto make a difference in terms of
changing lives and inspiringothers, but also making a good
living and just making A highincome, you're going to have to
take the time to think aboutsort of, how does this land in
the lap of somebody who might ormight not be buying it, and by
(11:09):
buying it doesn't necessarilymean they're swiping a credit
card. It could just mean, oh,here's an idea or a program that
compels them to change the waythat they think about the world,
and that, in and of itself, is,is, is really, really powerful.
But yeah, sort of the kind ofhard nosed commitment to cutting
through, kind of this, the theidea that it's not ideas that
(11:34):
really win, it's it's sellingthem, I find a little
depressing.
Kelly Waltrich (11:42):
I know you do. I know, I know,
Brian Portnoy (11:45):
but I don't think I'm alone in that either. I
don't think I'm the only personthat wishes it were a little bit
different, but I do look at, youknow, firms and people in the
same industry, and some seem tohave much more traction than
others. I look at the tractionwe've gotten in our business,
(12:06):
and it seems to correlate prettyhighly to sort of leaning into
creating a very quicklyunderstandable value proposition
for the client, which has to becommunicated through a sales and
marketing process.
Kelly Waltrich (12:21):
Yeah, that's very true. Okay, so I watched
you evolve what that looks likefor shaping wealth this year.
You started this year with whatI think is the clearest vision
you had for what you're bringinginto the world. Do you want to
just give everybody a quickoverview of how you what that
looks like and how you came tothat over the last couple of
months,
Brian Portnoy (12:40):
couple months, couple years, more than a couple
years. Yeah, and it's funny,because internally, I'm pushing
myself and the team to thinkhard about this. I don't think
we'll ever, I don't think we'llever be done. I mean, we're not
selling, you know, cheeseburgerswhere, you know, you perfect the
(13:02):
recipe and you hope people loveit, and then you sell as many as
possible. You know, we're in aservices business. We're an
experiences business, whatever,whatever that means. I mean, the
the short of it is that westarted with, I started with
this idea of funded contentmentfor everyone. When I think about
my community, when I think aboutmy kids, I think about sort of
(13:24):
how hard it is, it is to get byfinancially, but that a lot of
the happiness we do or don't getin our financial lives is as
much or if not more aboutmindset than it is about the
exact numbers on your balancesheet. And that's that funded
contentment idea. Well, okay,people find that compelling, and
then they might want to take acourse or listen to a lecture,
(13:47):
hear me give a speech onsomething related to that, or
more broadly, this, this fieldof quote, unquote, behavioral
finance, which is a fancy termfor sort of the psychology of
money, again, ideas, withoutnecessarily a product or a
business. Fast forward to theselast few months. Kelly, you
know, the conversations we'vehad behind the scenes. You know,
(14:09):
ultimately, what I'm trying todo is be a service provider to
the Global Wealth industry.
There's hundreds and hundreds of1000s of financial advisors and
millions of professionals inthis space who are not only
trying to improve the lives oftheir clients, they're trying to
have a great career themselves.
And so, you know what I'verealized, and by the way, if we
(14:30):
had this conversation in six or12 or 24 months, I think the
narrative will change, becauseit's always changing a little
bit. What I've realized is that,you know, what we are is an
investment in their humancapital, and that this is, you
know, it's a, it's a peoplebusiness, which is kind of a
casual thing to say, but like ina more rigorous sense, you know,
we help people revalue theirhuman capital in order that they
(14:54):
can deliver better services andexperiences to their clients.
But also just have a great. Thecareer themselves, and the more
that we frame kind of our coreideas based in philosophy and
theology and all the great ideasthat I really love, that my team
is expert in and really love,but the more that we kind of
(15:16):
frame that in a way that I thinklands squarely, without the need
for much explanation right atthe doorstep of our customers
and potential customers, lifegets incrementally easier, so we
end up being a talent solutionfor an industry that's
struggling to attract, retain,motivate, and retain talent.
Kelly Waltrich (15:38):
Okay, so I just want to recap for a second. So
for everybody that's listening,Brian is telling us that what
we're not doing today is justbelieving that the best idea
wins. We are realizing that nomatter who you are, what your
role, what your career, whereyou sit in an organization,
entrepreneur or not, you are insales, and you need that skill
(15:59):
set. So Bri, just tell me howyou're taking that, taking your
own advice into 2025, what doesthat look like for you and your
team? How are you shifting theway you're thinking about
things? What advice do you havefor people who don't have this
as their their skin, their intheir toolkit today, in terms of
being able to get their ideasacross and influence people's
(16:21):
decisions. Yeah, so I don't know
Brian Portnoy (16:23):
if I'm quoting James clear, or James clear is
just kind of quoting, you know,received wisdom. But he says
something like, we don't rise tothe level of our goals, we fall
to the level of our systems. Andso I think, you know, and here
we're in a very in a businesscontext, I think processes and
workflow is everything thatthere is lots of space for
(16:48):
creative flourish. If I hadn'thad if my team doesn't have the
creative flourish, then whatwe're doing is a little bit
boring and maybe a little bitgray or flat. And so, you know,
the the great ideas that we havebring a rainbow of colors to the
conversation, but theconversation targeted toward
(17:10):
growing the business has to fallinto kind of a process. I mean,
in working with you, you know,I've realized that, yes, market
it. You know, you can have animagine a fabulous tagline, and
you can think about all thegreat companies around the world
that came up with that sloganthat you'll that you'll never
forget. And yeah, that doescapture hearts and minds a
(17:34):
little bit, for most people, formost firms, most of the time.
That's not the way it goes. Ithink the way it goes is that
you need to think about like,who's going to be receiving the
most value from what you'reproviding, and how do you
connect with them? So, you know,for us, we're, you know,
investing in sales resources,bringing on a salesperson,
(17:57):
figuring out our our CRM, whichis this point, CRM is a four
letter, four letter word. To me,yes, being just three letters,
um, although the more I talkedabout other founders and
entrepreneurs and owners abouttheir CRM, it seems like it's,
it's a good company or ineveryone's side. But, you know,
(18:19):
really thinking about andinstitutionalizing processes and
workflows so that you don't haveto think so damn hard every day
about making a compelling pitch.
You just look at the the waythat this has been effective for
others, the way that you've beenyou've seen it be effective for
(18:39):
yourself and your particularcontext. And you allocate, you
know, you allocate resources tothat so, so yeah, 2025, for me
and I, and we've put a lot ofthought and increasingly
resources into this is buyinginto the idea that you don't you
don't reach to the level of yourhopes and aspirations. You fall
(19:04):
to the level of your workflowand processes and systems. And I
find that terribly boring. Iknow you do. I did. I rather be
spending my time reading orwriting or teaching, but I've
also chosen to build a company,and it's going well, so I think
I should keep going, and thereare ways to do that. Yeah,
Kelly Waltrich (19:27):
I think, you know, at the end of the day,
when you look at founders partand who they choose to partner
with, there's always, usuallysomeone that's more sales and
marketing inclined and somebodythat's more operationally
inclined. On the tech side, it'slike the CTO COO and then the
CRO kind of coming together asbusiness partners. And I feel
like I get that more. I get thatmore and more all the time. And
(19:49):
you know, my Tina is my partner,and we are dead opposites of
each other for a reason, and weget along swimmingly well
because she wants to do thethings that I'm terrible at, and
I want. Do the things that she'sterrible at. And so I think
that's part of it too, right?
You want to, you want to teach,and you want to read, and you
want to build and you want towrite. And so you have to find,
you have to find the person whogets up in the morning every day
(20:10):
about processes and workflows sothat they can compliment you in
that way. And I think that wouldbe a winning, winning
combination, for sure. And we'vemade progress.
Brian Portnoy (20:20):
We've made progress. We've made some really
good progress in recent monthsalong those ways. But you know,
to to your bigger point, and youknow to the people, you know, to
the audience that's that'slistening to this. I think
there's a kind of a realopportunity to reflect on the
way that works for you, becausewe all know, you know, countless
(20:42):
people running lots of differentcompanies, and nobody does it
the the right way. I mean, Ispent the first 15 plus years of
my career on the moneymanagement side of things,
especially evaluating, you know,fund managers and investing in
them. And you realize thatthere's no one right way to
invest, but there's a right wayfor you. I think that pertains
to sales and marketing as well.
There's no one right way.
(21:05):
There's not sort of the bookthat you have to follow, but
there's a number of methods,many of them tested and proven,
that you can lean into becauseit feels right to you like that
becomes an, you know, kind of acreative expression in of
itself.
Kelly Waltrich (21:21):
I love that. All right, everybody. Thank you so
much for joining today. We haveBrian Portnoy, my dear friend,
reminding us that skill thatsales is a skill set that we all
need the best idea doesn'tabsolutely win every time. It's
unfortunate, but it is the hardtruth. And just to let you all
know, what I'm hearing in thespace is 10 to 12 touch points
(21:42):
to get people to make adecision. So as you're thinking
about your sales process, you'rethinking about your marketing
process, we have some work to doto get the attention of the
folks that we're trying toreach. So Brian, I really
appreciate you joining today.
This is a wonderfulconversation, and I'll see you
soon. Thank
Brian Portnoy (21:55):
you so much. This is great, cool.
Kelly Waltrich (22:00):
Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed
today's show, subscribe to benotified when new episodes
become available, and pleaseconsider giving us a five star
review on Apple or Spotify. Thispodcast is sponsored by
intentionally, a financialservices growth engine design
consultancy and agency. If youwant to learn more, please email
(22:20):
me at Kelly at growintentionally.com. Thank you
again for listening and checkback to hear what we're not
doing next.
Unknown (22:29):
The information covered and posted represents the views
and opinions of the guest anddoes not necessarily represent
the views or opinions of KellyWaltrip. The content has been
made available for informationaland educational purposes only.
So.
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