What happens when marketing generates hundreds of leads but conversion rates stay stubbornly low?
In this episode, Kelly Waltrich sits down with Michelle Winkles, Partner and Chief Marketing Officer at Mission Wealth, to dive into the messy reality of digital marketing for RIAs. From her seat overseeing marketing for a national firm with $14 billion in AUM and 200+ team members, Michelle has learned what it really takes to make digital lead generation work.
This isn't your typical "how to get more leads" conversation. Michelle shares why she believes the biggest mistake firms make is treating marketing and sales as separate functions, especially when it comes to digital leads that require a completely different approach than referrals or COI introductions.
Kelly and Michelle cover:
00:01 – The reality check: everyone is struggling with digital lead conversion
04:59 – Why digital leads are different beasts that need different treatment
06:26 – The unicorn role: finding a business development advisor who understands both marketing and sales
07:43 – Kelly's agency reality check: why most digital marketing proposals miss the mark
11:49 – Staying ahead of AI tools and martech evolution
14:31 – Key tips for firms just starting their digital journey
16:50 – Michelle’s "Don't Do That": stop running marketing without sales alignment
18:25 – Why a booked intro isn't actually success if it doesn't convert
20:00 – Rebuilding funnels and focusing on middle and bottom conversion
21:15 – Answer Engine Optimization (AEO) and the future of search
23:44 – Creating SLAs between marketing and sales teams
26:53 – Making marketing budget a shared responsibility
29:22 – Speed to lead and meeting prospects where they are
32:17 – Setting realistic expectations and why digital isn't an overnight solution
35:00 – Using data to diagnose funnel drop-off points
36:02 – What to do with leads that don't meet minimums
38:20 – Join the CMO Collective for more conversations like this
Connect with Michelle Winkles:
- LinkedIn: Michelle Winkles
- Mission Wealth
About Our Guest:
Michelle Winkles is a marketing and sales leader specializing in financial services. She builds systems that drive measurable outcomes from digital lead acquisition, bridges marketing and sales processes, and ensures leads are properly followed up and converted. Michelle’s expertise spans CRM systems, automation, dashboards, engagement programs, and advisor training — all focused on turning digital interest into meaningful client relationships.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle Winkles (00:01):
It's not just us, and I'm learning that
everyone is kind of trying torethink their sales structure
and their teams and how toconvert. So the last few months,
I've really been focused on thatmiddle of the funnel and bottom
of the funnel process. Don'tjust think about the top. You
have to really think about yourprocess and everything that can
(00:22):
happen and all the ways you cansupport the sale all the way to
conversion.
Kelly Waltrich (00:31):
Welcome to the Don't Do That Podcast. I'm Kelly
Waltrich, CEO and Co-Founder ofIntention.ly, and like me, this
show is no fluff and no BS, justsmart advice to help you learn
from the best and level upfaster. So what are we not doing
today? Let's find out.
Hi everyone, and welcome to theDon't Do That podcast. I am your
(00:53):
host, Kelly Waltrich, and I amso excited today I have with me.
Michelle Winkles. She is Partnerand Chief Marketing Officer at
Mission Wealth. Hi Michelle,thanks for joining me.
Michelle Winkles (01:04):
Hi Kelly, thank you for having me.
Kelly Waltrich (01:06):
Of course, guys, I'm really excited for today's
conversation. If you've beenlistening to the podcast, you
know that I've had lots ofentrepreneurs, lots of CEOs, and
today, straight from my ownheart, I have a CMO and
marketing leader in the thick ofit at a very large Ria, trying
to figure out every day howmarketing skill sets need to
evolve, how team dynamics needto evolve, how digital needs to
(01:28):
evolve. So she's deep in it, andshe is figuring it out, and one
of the top minds, I think, in ramarketing. So really excited to
have you, Michelle,
Michelle Winkles (01:36):
Thanks for that. Is such a great
compliment. Yeah, definitely inthe trenches, but excited to
talk about it and happy to goback and forth on this, because
this is a very importantposition that I'm in, and I know
that you know that becauseyou're working with so many CMOs
today. Yes, all right, so tellus a little bit about your role
and your firm, just to help ourlisteners understand your frame
(01:57):
of reference. Yeah. Missionwealth is a national Ria. We are
currently serving clients allacross the US. We have, are now
at about 14 billion in assetsunder management. We have almost
200 team members on our teamtoday, and we have over, I'd
say, over 35 locations acrossthe US. We serve all high net
(02:19):
worth individuals. And we aregrowing, growing fast. Okay?
Michelle, so you are passionateabout the journey to digital
within your firm, and everythingit's taken to get from where you
started to where you are, allthe learnings along the way. So
I would love, I know that that'sa lot like, that's a that's a
full mouthful, right? Yeah, somaybe start by giving everybody
(02:41):
a sense of the channels that youare using and sort of the
program that you have inside ofMission, and then some of the
learnings that you've come awaywith. We could do hours on this.
I know. I know.
Yeah, we got to fit this into a30 minute podcast. I know.
Okay, well, I think where tostart is to think about, at an
(03:04):
RIA firm, all the differentgrowth channels that there are,
right and marketing supports allof those growth channels. One of
the newer growth channels isdigital. I guess it's always
been around, but it hasn't beenas much of a focus as it is
today.
We think about the type of leadthat come in from these
different channels. There's B toB, right? There's custodian
(03:27):
referrals, client referrals, COIreferrals, and then there's M
and A, and you obtain clientsfrom those firms that you
acquire, right? And then digitalis its own baby. I mean, there's
not as much trust andcredibility from this lead as
there is from the otherchannels, right? So there's a
lot more marketing that goesinto it, right? There's a lot of
(03:48):
things that you have to do tobuild that trust and credibility
and to capture their attentionand make them choose you. And so
I've been tasked over the lastfew years to really build up
this growth channel, we believeit's very important to have
multiple growth channels at ourfirm and have leads come in. You
cannot rely on just one. And Iknow this was a full topic that
(04:11):
you spoke about with John,weren't a few episodes ago.
Don't just rely on one growthchannel. You got to rely on
many. So we do believe thatdigital can be successful if you
set it up the right way. And soI think one of the most
important things to do is makesure you have several things you
want to have, the team, thedollars, the time, the capacity
(04:35):
and the patience to build upthis channel. And so when I say
that, you really need to firstthink about your funnel and all
the different ways that theleads are going to come in,
right, and then how you're goingto get their attention. So
there's all that's marketingright? That's really where it
has always been as lead genbrand awareness, selling your
(04:57):
firm, building the collateral,the tools, your web.
Psi, all those kind of things.
And that's really where we wereat several years ago. And today,
you can't just rely on that andlet marketing stand there,
right? You have to think aboutthe full funnel, the top, the
middle and the bottom. And whenI think about my don't do that,
and I know that's your nextquestion, like, well, what's
(05:17):
your don't do that? Michelle,it's don't run marketing without
sales alignment, because I trulybelieve that sales needs to know
what marketing is doing andunderstand all the work that
goes into getting these leads sothat they find them just as
important as these other growthchannels. The other big lesson
is you can't a sales advisor forone channel is not going to be
(05:41):
as strong as a sales advisor forthe other. So one thing that
we've started to realize we needis a business development
advisor for digital only, andhave that be under marketing
someone. It's a unicorn, and I'mlooking for them today, and we
want to have many of these,yeah, but it needs to be someone
(06:03):
that knows advice, thatunderstands marketing, that is
great at sales, that can hookthat lead from the first phone
call, sell them on your firm,relate to them, understand what
their needs are, qualify themproperly, hold that intro and
keep the conversation goingalmost all the way through to
(06:23):
the sale.
Kelly Waltrich (06:26):
Not an easy gig that you are looking to fill for
sure. No, it's not,
Michelle Winkles (06:30):
But I know you're out there somewhere.
It's always been kind of a splitrole, right? There's the BDRs
who call and chase the leads andpre qualify them and then hand
them to sales. But we reallybelieve that digital sales is
unique, and we can, we can talkmore about that, but yeah
Kelly Waltrich (06:51):
For everybody that's listening, before we
started this conversation, I hadmentioned to Michelle that the
way that I'm thinking about thefunnel and the way that I'm
talking to intentionallyprospects is about is that
marketers are owning so muchmore of the funnel, and I think
that that's a perfect example.
Perfect example as to why,especially on the digital side,
somebody with a marketing mindneeds to take a digital lead so
much farther than maybe any ofthose other types of leads that
you mentioned.
Michelle Winkles (07:13):
Yeah, I feel like we've done a really great
job at getting lead. There's somany ways you can get lead. You
have money. You could just buythem right, right, right, but
you need to think about whoyou're buying them from and how
you like the tools that theyhave for you to really, truly
hone in on what kind of clientsyou want, because you can buy
(07:33):
leads, you can create campaigns.
You can do so many things to getleads, but if you don't handle
them properly. You're wastingyour time and money, right?
Kelly Waltrich (07:43):
It's so easy to waste your time and money. So
Michelle, I just, I'm just goingto take this from the frame of
reference, from the agencyperspective. I just had a friend
of mine at an RIA come to me andsay, Hey, we're going, we want
to start digital. We're ready.
We're doing this. And I'm like,okay, and I know this firm very
well. So I'm like, All right, Ihear you. I was like, I want you
to go out. I thanks for comingto me, but I want you to go out
(08:05):
and get a couple of proposals.
Just, just go do that, and thencome back to me. So they did
that, and they came back to me,and I looked at the proposals.
This was a good exercise forthem, and it was an interesting
exercise for me. And I sat down,and I said, Okay, so tell me,
like, what you see here. Andthey're like, Well, this one
says we're gonna get this manyleads with this amount of money,
(08:26):
this one says this many leadswithout this amount amount of
money. And then I just, like,launched into it, Michelle. I
was like, okay, all right. I waslike, Okay, well, I'm glad
that's what you got from thoseproposals. But here we here we
go. Here's what you actuallyneed to be thinking about, and
here's what you actually need tobe asking these folks. I was
like, so nowhere in thisproposal is anybody saying to
you that they know anythingabout your business and the end
(08:48):
consumer and what it's going totake to get to them. They have
no idea the asset levels or theminimum fees that you guys have
internally to know what type ofperson that you're actually
trying to get to and what it'sgoing to take. They haven't
given you any information aboutthe volume of searches in your
demographic. You know yourgeographic regions where you're
trying to go after they've givenyou no sense of cost per lead in
those areas. On top of that,these agencies, they don't
(09:12):
create the lead magnets, theydon't create the nurtures. They
don't get into your HubSpot.
They don't create the landingand like, you are so far from
understanding like, what this isgoing to take, like, so here's
the list of things like, here'sthe list of things that you need
to talk to everybody internally.
And this is only the startingpoint, because then, to your
point, it's like, Okay, so oncea lead comes in, what are we
doing with this? Who is, who iscalling them? What is their you
(09:34):
know, we all agreed at one ofthe round tables that it's 15
touch points minimum, right?
Like, who is doing that? Whatare those touch points? Is it
round robin? Are you giving themto someone who's best, most
likely to close so anyway, toyour point, it's like, if
Michelle and I can give you anyadvice today, it's like, digital
is a beast, and if you are goingto do it, you need to be well
informed, right? I mean, and Ithink you need to understand.
(10:00):
On the process from start tofinish, before you start having
conversations about who's goingto help you execute, because a
lot of people get one piece ofit right, And to your point,
time, money, energy, effort,it's out the window.
Michelle Winkles (10:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, everything you said I can
fully relate to that has been myworld for the last few years.
Yes, yes. We have such a greatteam, and I'm so fortunate for
that. I have a team of five atMission, and we all are a part
of the digital process. Everyone of the team members has
their own segment they're reallyresponsible for supporting,
which is, I know, a little bitdifferent of a marketing setup
(10:36):
than others, but I feel like itgives them a great path for
growth. Yeah, you can, they canwork with our champions at our
firm to learn more about how tosupport M and A or B to B or
digital. I did have oneindividual just focused on
digital. I realized, wow, thisis a team effort. We need a
martech person thinking abouthow all of these programs flow
together and feed the funnel.
And, you know, I know HubSpot.
(11:00):
You guys are fans of. We usePardot. It was called Pardot,
but a part of Salesforce, andthere is so much there to try to
understand and learn. So justthe education side around how to
use all these programs and howthey flow together is its own
thing. And then there's so manygreat tools out there, and
thinking about how you canautomate them and learn them and
(11:21):
optimize them, and they'recontinually evolving. And now
there's all these AI componentsand things like that. So to stay
ahead of what's out there, likethat's been a big goal of mine,
and something I've been focusingon learning all of these
programs there that areavailable to us and thinking
about how they fit into our techstack, right? And and there's so
many things out there, and youcan say, Oh, this is great.
(11:42):
Yeah, we need that. But do youhave the capacity to use it, to
manage it, to keep it up to par?
So that's another thing there.
Kelly Waltrich (11:49):
Yeah, so a whole nother thing. Tina and I have a
webinar later today on themassive amount of AI tech tools
that we're vetting and the onesthat we like and the ones that
we don't like, and why. And it'sintense to try to keep up with
all of it. And you know that howonly half of them are going to
be in existence a year from now.
So you also have to play thatgame.
Michelle Winkles (12:05):
I know that's one of those things everyone
talks about, oh, this, we havethis, and then, oh, it's not
really ready when you go to getit or learn about it, or it's
not fully flushed. And that's alittle scary.
Kelly Waltrich (12:15):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's some there's some
good things, and there'sinteresting things, and there's
some things to learn. I feellike my career at eMoney and
Orion was based on the inboundprocess, like I was an early
adopter of HubSpot. I lovedeverything about it, the gated
content, all these things, andnow it's all out the window,
right? It's all out the window,and you have to learn a
completely new marketing motion.
So we're trying to stay ahead ofthat, like fiercely and
(12:36):
intensely every day hereunintentionally, to make sure
that we can help firms thinkthrough the new ways of client
acquisition.
Michelle Winkles (12:45):
I think that is so great. And I'm signed up
for that webinar, so I lookforward to it. I've actually
been asked to speak on AI a fewtimes this year at different
conferences, and I'm like, Well,I'm not the expert. I can just
tell you how I'm using it andsome things I've learned along
the way, and it's just amazing.
I'm so excited about AI, and Iwish I had more time to learn
it. But if you're not using itnow, you definitely need to
(13:05):
start. You need to just startusing it simply in your day to
day life, and then think abouthow it applies to your role,
especially in marketing, becauseAI is so huge with marketing
right now, there are so manydifferent tools out there that
you can use to make your job somuch simpler. Yes, so much
easier. Yeah, yeah. You know,it's interesting. You said I'm
(13:26):
not an expert. I don't, I don'tbelieve when anybody says
they're an expert. Yet, there'sjust no way like it's too new.
There's too many things. DaveGerhard, he's like a B to B
marketing influencer. He hewrote in a LinkedIn post the
other day that, like, you don'thave to be an expert. There's no
experts yet. So do your best,like you just said, to figure
out what your problems are, whatyour you need to streamline, and
(13:46):
the best solutions in thismoment to do so. And it's gonna
evolve, and it's gonna change,and you just gotta try to keep
up. But that's marketing ingeneral, right? Yeah, you just
gotta try to keep up. I'm alwaystrying to keep up. I wish I
could do more. I wish we hadmore time in the day. But, yeah,
you just do, do need to have aneye open to what's out there?
That's very important. And Igoing to conferences to meet
(14:07):
with vendors for that reason, tokind of learn. How can you help
me not be scared to walk bythose booths and get stopped and
just be open minded tocontinuing to learn what's out
there and how things arechanging. Yeah, I think that's
really smart.
Kelly Waltrich (14:31):
So before we get into your don't do that that you
you sneak previewed anybodythat's approaching digital. Give
them, like, a couple of keytips, because this whole
industry is trying to get intoit. It's a very messy it's a
messy moment for digital in myopinion, based on the firms that
I talk to and what I see everyday, give them like your top
tips for starting,
Michelle Winkles (14:52):
For starting, I would, I'd really just one
thing I did was, don't be afraidto ask other leaders what
they're doing.
Right? Yeah, learn, like, whatworked for you, what didn't work
for you. You know, be open tohaving conversations and cross
sharing. I think that is justwhere I started. You can use AI
to ask, you know, hey, I work ata rea firm, and we're starting
(15:15):
digital like, what are the firststeps? Like, you could use AI
for advice, right? But for me,what I did is really just
researched what the marketingfunnel looks like, and I built
out the stages, you know, justthink about the process, how
they come in the differentchannels, like what, what are
their what are your goals foreach level of those, for each
one of those stages in thefunnel? And when you build out
(15:37):
those goals, then you need tothink about what tools you have
that can help you get thosegoals. My biggest tip is having
a really strong CRM andmarketing automation program.
You're really going to buildeverything in that trying to do
everything manually is justgoing to be overwhelming and
you're not going to feelorganized. So you definitely
(15:58):
want to have a good marketingautomation program. I know
HubSpot is great. We might betransitioning over to that one
day, but that's a really bigproject, and I'm nervous about
that. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,having a really great automation
program, making sure you havethe team, like, are you? Do you
realistically have the people tohelp build something like this?
(16:19):
And start small, I think, don'ttry to do everything. Don't try
to have paid campaigns and runads on social and buy leads from
these companies when you're notgoing to be managing them or be
able to manage that lead flowproperly. You just need to think
about those things. I mean,there's so many I could just
(16:42):
ramble on and on touch on thesales side, which is what is the
main don't do that is don't runmarketing without sales
alignment. So, yes, all right,so she gave it up. What we're
not doing today is we're notrunning marketing without sales
alignment. And I am verypassionate about this too. I
feel like I've talked a lotabout this topic, and I feel
very lucky having worked inorganizations with really great
(17:05):
sales leaders that understoodmodern marketing, but that is
few and far between in ourspace, I realize. And so there's
a lot of work to be done there.
And like you said earlier,Michelle, a lead coming from
digital is a totally differentbeast. I have lots of
conversations with prospectsabout that, I say to them, can
do you feel like you can reallyconvert someone that wasn't
(17:26):
handed to you from yourbrother's friend or your COI or
your your uncle or like yoursister, you know, like it's not
a referral? Do you feel like youcan take someone from a colder
position to close, and that is ait's an undertaking. Yeah, we
always thought, okay,marketing's responsible for
getting the leads and sales isresponsible for closing them. It
(17:47):
sounds so simple, right? But youknow, over the past few years,
I've just been so laser focusedon the top of the funnel efforts
and building the awareness andgenerating the lead and running
the campaign. And it worked, andleads came in. But the mistake
was that thinking that successended with a booked intro,
right? Because I'm like, Oh,look, we got 100 booked intros,
(18:09):
yay. Well, how many of thoseclosed? Well, I don't have
control of what sales is doing.
We have we're growing, right?
Like we're our firm. Look at ourgrowth. It's insane. You know?
It's doing great. Well, theconversion on digital is not
that great. I mean, I've seen somany articles out there and and
it's not just us, right? It'severyone. What is it like? Four
(18:30):
to six or four to 8% if peopleare lucky, if you're good, like,
lucky, yep, right? And so Ibelieve we were really
successful last year, you know,like, with converting, but we
could be so much better. Andlooking at it, it's like, well,
we had really great lead genflow. We had really great, a
high amount of intros booked. Itkind of dropped it held, and
(18:54):
then it really dropped atopportunity, and it really
dropped at closed. Like, well,that's a sales problem. Like,
well, that's a sales problem.
Like, well as cmo these days,like, our roles are evolving,
and it's not a sales problem,it's a marketing problem. You're
bringing in these leads. We needto think about why digital is
not closing, right? You know,and I'm sure this is an issue
(19:17):
with a lot of firms. It's like Isaid, it's not just us, and I'm
learning that everyone is kindof trying to rethink their sales
structure and their teams andhow to convert. Yeah. So the
last few months, I've reallybeen focused on that middle of
the funnel and bottom of thefunnel process, just that's the
don't do that. Don't just thinkabout the top. You have to
(19:39):
really think about your processand everything that can happen,
and all the ways you can supportthe sale, all the way to
conversion, yep. And so that'sreally re looking at your
funnel, and we've rebuilt ourfunnel so many times, and I'm
ready to rebuild it again, and Ihope my team isn't mad at me. I.
(20:00):
When I change it again, butyeah, there's, there's just so
many things to think about, butit's actually fun. And this is
the fun part of my job is whereyou can really be creative and
say, How can we get in front ofthem, and how can we stand out?
Right? Yep, one of the newprograms we're rolling out is a
testimonial program, and that'sgoing to help us build that
online credibility. I've beenlistening to so many different
(20:23):
podcasts and seeing a lot ofarticles on how to show up in AI
search, because that's the nextnew medium or region, right?
Yep, answer engine optimizationand testimonials are huge, and
media is huge, and I'm learningyou want a lot of stuff about
you all over the internet,right? And that shows your
incredible answer to someoneagree, right?
Kelly Waltrich (20:45):
Yep, yep.
Michelle Winkles (20:46):
So testimonials, we're really
focusing on that, and reviews tobusiness profiles on Google and
beingthose are just, I think, two of
my big tips that focus on yourreputation. Your reputation
management is marketing, right?
And all the places you show up.
So that's one thing, and digitalreally needs that credibility,
because when people aresearching for you, yeah, SEO is
(21:06):
the old way of of being found,but now we really need to think
about SEO and AEO. Yes, 100%
Kelly Waltrich (21:15):
so let's go back to sales and marketing working
well together. So I feel like, Ifeel like RIAs are taking a page
out of a SaaS marketingplaybook, because this is how
SaaS has been operating for areally long, a long time, and
it's really exciting to see. AndI feel like going about creating
a relationship with your salesteam in a way that is mutually
beneficial is, like you said, soimportant. So I wanna, I want,
(21:40):
let's both give some tips interms of how people can think
about that. I know for me,Michelle, what really worked
really well. So Kyle Hyatt wasmy counterpart at Orion for a
lot of years, and we had apretty sophisticated lead gen
engine and and we had SLAs foreach other, right like so my I
would say to him, and this isjust some some things for folks
(22:00):
who are listening to think aboutbut I would say to him, like,
okay, my commitment to you isthat I'm going to get you X
amount of opportunity. YourSales Team, X amount of
opportunities. They are going tocome in at a lead score of x or
higher, which means they've meta really important threshold on
the marketing side, they aregoing to fit within the ICP or
(22:22):
get weeded out prior to reachingyour firm or your team. In
return, what I need from you isa response time of x, like as
soon as somebody hits your desk,you need to turn around and you
need to respond quickly, but notonly quickly, you need to have
the right person respond withthe right skills and expertise
to handle that particularconversation. So if it was
(22:45):
billing or reporting or whateverit was at the time at Orion,
like we needed an expert,because a lot of people make the
mistake of putting their mostjunior people up front right the
BDRs and the SDRs, they'realways like the youngest, but
really that is the mostimportant conversation you're
going to have, because they'reeither going to continue to
continue to talk to you orthey're not. So yeah, and then
(23:06):
SLAs around, okay, based on themoney that we're spending, that
we're spending, not justmarketing is spending, we need a
certain conversion rate at everystage of the funnel. So you need
to stay accountable to me interms of X amount percent moving
to this stage, X amount percentmoving to this stage, X amount
moving to this stage, and Xamount converting. And if
(23:27):
they're not at any point, I needthe communication back to me to
be so precise in terms of whatis going wrong. Like, what do
you need? What did we not nail?
What was the question we missed?
What was the objection? So thatwe can make sure the next time
someone similar that goesthrough that funnel has a
different experience.
Michelle Winkles (23:44):
That communication and that feedback
is so important, and it's verykey.
Kelly Waltrich (23:49):
How do you know?
You know and it's very missingfrom most firms.
Michelle Winkles (23:53):
100% yes, yes, I've learned that as
well. It's missing. So how canyou fix that. How can you hold
them accountable? And I thinkthat's where I'm thinking about
automation, and we're likeengagement programs. Yep, help.
So asks who people that areaccountable, so you can see if
they've completed those pathsand it popped up in front of
(24:16):
them, right? People aren't goingto remember their kids, and
they're going to prioritize thelow hanging fruit and digital,
isn't that? Right?
Kelly Waltrich (24:26):
Yeah, I think that's really smart, serving up
tasks, and I also think at theend of the day, so between me
and Kyle just using us as anexample too, because we got to a
good place, but not without alot of work and a lot of trials.
But it was if you want to movesomebody out of the sales funnel
back to marketing becausethey're not ready. You need to
have a good reason. There's nolike this person isn't a good
(24:49):
lead, without giving us areason, because we'll go to war
over that. If I see there's 100leads with no good objection
reason, and I can't put themback well.
Into a campaign to start warmingthem up again, then that's where
we come together, because thatmeans that you're not collecting
the right amount of informationto make everything that we're
doing better,
Michelle Winkles (25:10):
Right? I know, yeah. I we use Salesforce, which
is a great CRM. And when you saysales funnel and marketing
funnel, I think at least on thedigital lead side, it's all one,
yeah, one funnel for the digitalso I built, I had built out with
my team the whole marketing andsales funnel there, but we
didn't think again of the middleand the bottom, like all the
(25:32):
automations there. We had builtall the great automations and
tasks and follow ups and cadenceand drip, email campaigns and
everything for the top. We gotthem all that intro booked, and
then I come to learn, some ofthose intros weren't held, or
they didn't show and theyemailed them once, and it's been
three or four weeks. Okay, wehave a problem. Very clear. Why
this conversion rate is down.
Well, how do we fix it? Sothinking about those kind of
(25:54):
things, what kind of tactics dowe need to create? This is where
marketing really steps in tosupport sales, but if you don't
have that feedback from sales,like, oh, they didn't show,
okay, and then what did you do?
Or or they did show. And now I'mwaiting them for them to upload
docs to get to this stage. Well,did you book that next meeting?
Just did you give them adeadline? Did you make them
(26:17):
feel? How did you ensureconfidence in our firm is for it
to be the best one. You know,they all have their own
processes, and some are reallygreat. Some are not, but you
have to kind of build that forthem, I think, and give them the
criteria. This is what you needto do and make sure they're
trained. One of the things thatI've, I've needed to do is meet
(26:39):
with those lead advisors, one onone and explain. This is how
we're getting them. This is whatyou should do. What are you
doing now? Where can we meet inthe middle? How can we how can
we support you? So again,communication is so key.
Kelly Waltrich (26:53):
Yeah, you know, I think for every marketing
leader out there, a goodconversation to sit down and
have with your advisors, or yoursales leader, or whatever that
looks like in your firm, is tosay that the marketing budget is
ours, like ours together. So ifwe want more money and we want
more resources so that we canbring you more leads, you have
to absolutely hold up your endof the bargain in closing as
(27:16):
many of them as possible,because I think it's so easy for
sales to be like, oh, a digitallead. I'm gonna put that to the
bottom of the list. It's atleast likely to convert. But if
you flip the script and makethem realize, like, Okay, well,
this well is going to dry up,because if we can't show an ROI,
then we're going to put lessdollars towards digital. You're
going to get less at bats.
You're going to make less money.
The firm is going to do less.
There's, like, a whole chainreaction, yeah. So I've always
(27:37):
tried to, like, haveconversations with marketing
leaders around like, Hey, thisis, this is our budget to get
this firm wins, and so let'sjointly figure out how we're
going to get the highest andbest ROI for the dollars that we
spend.
Michelle Winkles (27:53):
Right? I agree. And one thing you
mentioned earlier, too is, who'sthat front person? That's the
first person that elite istalking to. You're right. People
do make the mistake of puttingtheir junior executives or
specific type of BDR in front ofthem, and they're because
they're the ones chasing thecalls. You know, there's a lot
of things. They're texting,calling, emailing, right a lot,
(28:15):
and you said something like 11or 12 touch points. But when
they get them on the phone,what's their script. What are
they saying? Are they trained onhow to speak to them, how to
properly qualify, even not just,are they qualifying properly? Do
they understand what they'resaying? Right where I say, we
need a we've created this reallygreat role called a BDA, where
(28:35):
they know they're an advisor,but maybe they don't want to
manage clients anymore. Maybethey're just, they just want to
do sales, and they care aboutthe growth of the firm, and they
can speak to our firm and how wecan help that person. And a lot
of the time, leads will go intotheir full story, and that
junior person has no idea how torespond to them, and they're not
going to give them advice,though, it could turn off that
(28:58):
lead. So there's so many littlethings that can happen. And they
can ask about our firm and allof our services, and if you're
not trained properly to speak tothat, then that's a big loss.
You may have paid a lot of moneyfor that lead, or you may have
put in a ton of hours buildingcampaigns to get that lead, and
you just lost them, right? So itso it's so spot on. Yeah, you
(29:19):
need the right people in theright seat?
Kelly Waltrich (29:22):
Yeah, and those investors or those advisors,
whoever you're marketing towardsat your firm, they're pulling up
that person that they're talkingto on LinkedIn. And if they see
that they have zero experienceto be talking to them about the
topics, then that's another turnoff, too. You know, they're not
people are digitally savvy.
They're thinking about thesethings they want to know. Who
are they getting, who are theytalking to, and are they in a
(29:43):
position to provide them withall the information that they
need to make a decision?
Michelle Winkles (29:49):
Yeah. And you need to think about speed to
lead. I mean, I know we hear itall the time, but it is so
important. And especially like,if we're talking about
purchasing leads, and you choosethe provider, that's like a
three to.
One match. They're matching thislead with three people. Those
firms are going to get to themfaster if you're not on it. So
you want someone in that seatthat is responsive and quick to
(30:11):
get to them. And I've seen a lotof different tactics too. One of
the biggest learnings is, howare you getting to them? Are you
meeting them where they're atright? Do they want to be called
right away. Do they wanna betexted? Are they gonna read your
email? I feel like email isdown, like people are so
bombarded with emails. We dotrack the method that got them
(30:32):
to book, and we do see that fromphone calls. Phone calls is
definitely the top method, buttexting has definitely
increased, and how you build inmaybe a text automation into
your follow up that can be yourspeed to lead answer, like
you're texting them right away,we see more response with a text
before a call, which isinteresting you're using to
(30:55):
follow up, how you're chasing,who's chasing. Those are just
huge things to think about, veryimportant.
Kelly Waltrich (31:02):
And guys, listen, listeners, we're not
trying to scare you. It probablysounds scary. And we're not
trying to scare you becausedigital acquisition is like
becoming a not nice to have,like you have to be doing it. So
we're just trying to make yourealize that it needs to just be
wealth. It needs to be wellthought out. And if you're not
positioned well to do that,there are plenty of partners out
there that are and there arepeople like Michelle that you
(31:24):
can bounce ideas off of firmslike mine, that you can come to
and will execute on your behalf.
So there's so many ways to doit, but we want you to go into
it with your eyes wide open andknow that it's not, you're not
going to start paying for someleads and all of a sudden your
firm's going to blow uptomorrow. You know? It just
doesn't, it doesn't work likethat. Another thing Michelle, I
just want to talk about is I hada client who and I love you, in
(31:45):
case you're listening and knowwho you are, but I had a client
who came to us and said, aftersix months, this digital lead
acquisition isn't, isn'tworking. So and I, I can
generally tell upfront if that'sthe type of person I'm dealing
with, if I know. So it's allgood. I saw it coming my way.
This isn't working. And I saidback to them, All right, let's
(32:08):
talk about that. Let's let'sunderstand what's not working
like you and I have been talkingabout and I said, your website
traffic is up 780%your Contact Us form is up 77%
your downloads are up. I don'teven know what percent was like,
1,000% and you've gotten,I think, 372
(32:31):
people to come through your ads,identify themselves as having
your asset minimum and ask totalk to you.
Michelle Winkles (32:38):
And it's not working.
Kelly Waltrich (32:39):
So what's not working. So this is a challenge
that I have a lot, a lot, a lot,a lot. So Michelle, I want you
to give listeners, because Ithink more often than not, this
is the norm, like what you wouldfeel or do and act upon in that
situation.
Michelle Winkles (32:55):
Well, I would look at the data, right? So I
think it's very important toalways look at the data. Have
some kind of dashboard we'vebuilt, I think 20 marketing
dashboards in Salesforce for onefor each of our channels in
under digital, right? One forour sales marketing advisor to
use to have insight into whereI'm at and stay organized. But
(33:18):
what I would do is look at whereis the drop off I mentioned
earlier. And I don't know ifthis is in a conversation with
you or on this call, but we sawtons of leads come in. We got a
lot of our intros booked. Itstarted to drop off at held, and
then it really dropped off atconversion and opportunities,
right? So that, to me, islooking at data and saying,
(33:40):
Well, this is dropping off, anddiving into why, going into
those leads, and seeing, youknow what happened? And really
it was the sales. It was notthat they're not good sales
advisors, because we have greatsales advisors, but it's the
process that they need tofollow, to follow up, and how
(34:00):
marketing supporting that, andagain, that's the middle and
bottom of the funnel that wehadn't honed in on until, until
this last year. So what, whatone should do is think about
that and dive into each layerthere. So how do we get them to
attend that intro? Come up withyour tactics, maybe build out an
(34:22):
automation around that. I'veseen some other ones out there
that are pretty interesting.
Like, oh, we're gonna send thema digital coffee gift card, you
know, like, here's a coffeelike, to prepare for a meeting,
sending them things that they'reprobably thinking about up to
that meeting. What are the topquestions to ask the advisor
during this intro? Maybe justshowcasing videos so they can
put a face to a name of whothey're going to meet with.
(34:43):
Using video is really huge.
Helps build that trust, maybesharing some reviews or
testimonials from clients thatare like them. Yep, you're
thinking about like, how to getthem to be confident, to attend
that meeting, right? Holdingthem accountable. That's just
one example.
Well, the other would be, okay.
Well, they're not. These introsare being held, but then
(35:04):
nothing's happening. So you needto dive into your data and say,
like, Okay, well, where is itnot happening? Why is this rate
down? Go into those situationsand look at, you know, like,
what happened? Was there afollow up or not? Build up,
maybe a proposed follow up andstart there. I know there's a
lot more I can go into, but
Kelly Waltrich (35:25):
All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lob one more
scenario at you, and then we canwrap it up. Okay, so you have
asset limits, right for firmslike or AUM, thresholds, yeah.
And it doesn't matter how goodyou are at Digital. You heard it
here first, you are always goingto end up with people who don't
meet that minimum, whether theyself identify as something else,
(35:47):
as having met the minimum, orit's just, it's just how digital
works, you're going to end upwith people that fall outside of
your geographic region. You'regoing to find you're going to
end up with people who don'tmeet that threshold. What is a
firm like yours doing with thosefolks?
Michelle Winkles (36:03):
Oh, interesting. We do have a lot of
those. Luckily, we did justlaunch a new program called
mission forward, working withfinancial that is a next gen app
that can serve those that don'tmeet our minimums. So now we
don't turn them away. We loveit. You know, we hold our
discovery call and we hand themto our business development
(36:24):
advisor to assess what serviceis best for them. We don't tell
them about the app right off thebat, because maybe they don't
want to just use an app. Theymight want more. So what we
found is just treating everyonethe same, getting them to that
intro and fully qualifying themin that intro, and then
suggesting the service that'sbest for them. But before we had
(36:46):
the app, we would let them knowabout our minimum. You could
cross refer them to an FC whichdoes build a great relationship,
so like Fidelity or Schwab, youcan suggest working with them or
a specific FC that's in theirarea, or like their region, or
you can recommend advisors thatoffer one time fees or or such.
(37:09):
So I think it's always good tojust have a good list, a backup
list, of who they could workwith if you're not the right
solution.
Kelly Waltrich (37:16):
Perfect. That's great. Yeah, we have a couple of
clients who are doing exactlywhat you're doing, and I love
it. I mean, you have to build,it's a whole nother program to
move people through to an appand make sure that you're it's a
whole nother it's a whole notherworld and a whole nother effort.
But I think that that it's niceto make sure that people are
served in some way. If they'recoming through and asking for
(37:37):
advice, you don't want to turnthem away.
Michelle Winkles (37:38):
A lot of the digital leads we get, are people
looking for a one time plan, orthey don't want a management
fee, so that's a challenge, butyeah, we will try to refer any
one time planners that we knowof in the meantime.
Kelly Waltrich (37:53):
Yeah, that's great. All right, guys, we
Michelle and I could talkforever, and if you want to
continue this conversation,we'll see you at future proof,
at the CMO collective in just acouple of weeks. But just as a
reminder, what we are not doingtoday is we are not operating
marketing in a silo. We'remaking sure that it's a very
well oiled sales and marketingcombination to get to the best
(38:16):
results for your firm. Michelle,anything you want to leave our
listeners with before we signoff.
Michelle Winkles (38:22):
Um, no, just if you're interested in the CMO
Collective, we can have thesekind of conversations. You know,
it's not just a future proof.
You can actually sign up, youknow, to be a part of it and be
in the know. We have digitalmeetings as well, and we're
always open to hearing what kindof topics that you want to hear
about, and we can expand onthem, so don't be shy. Say hi,
connect with me on LinkedIn andKelly, we want to be your
(38:44):
friend.
Kelly Waltrich (38:47):
Yes, we do. All right. Thanks everybody for
listening. Appreciate the time.
Michelle was really wonderful tohave you, and we'll see you back
here soon.
Michelle Winkles (38:55):
Thank you.
Kelly Waltrich (38:56):
Bye.
Thanks so much for tuning in. Ifyou enjoyed today's show,
subscribe to be notified whennew episodes become available,
and please consider giving us afive star review on Apple or
Spotify. This podcast issponsored by Intention.ly, a
financial services growthengine, design consultancy and
(39:17):
agency. If you want to learnmore, please email me at Kelly
at grow intentionally.com.
Thank you again for listeningand check back to hear what
we're not doing next.
Unknown (39:28):
The information covered and posted represents the views
and opinions of the guest anddoes not necessarily represent
the views or opinions of KellyWaltrich. The content has been
made available for informationaland educational purposes only.
You.
It's not just us, and I'm learning that
everyone is kind of trying torethink their sales structure
and their teams and how toconvert. So the last few months,
I've really been focused on thatmiddle of the funnel and bottom
of the funnel process. Don'tjust think about the top. You
have to really think about yourprocess and everything that can
(00:22):
happen and all the ways you cansupport the sale all the way to
conversion.
Kelly Waltrich (00:31):
Welcome to the Don't Do That Podcast. I'm Kelly
Waltrich, CEO and Co-Founder ofIntention.ly, and like me, this
show is no fluff and no BS, justsmart advice to help you learn
from the best and level upfaster. So what are we not doing
today? Let's find out.
Hi everyone, and welcome to theDon't Do That podcast. I am your
(00:53):
host, Kelly Waltrich, and I amso excited today I have with me.
Michelle Winkles. She is Partnerand Chief Marketing Officer at
Mission Wealth. Hi Michelle,thanks for joining me.
Michelle Winkles (01:04):
Hi Kelly, thank you for having me.
Kelly Waltrich (01:06):
Of course, guys, I'm really excited for today's
conversation. If you've beenlistening to the podcast, you
know that I've had lots ofentrepreneurs, lots of CEOs, and
today, straight from my ownheart, I have a CMO and
marketing leader in the thick ofit at a very large Ria, trying
to figure out every day howmarketing skill sets need to
evolve, how team dynamics needto evolve, how digital needs to
(01:28):
evolve. So she's deep in it, andshe is figuring it out, and one
of the top minds, I think, in ramarketing. So really excited to
have you, Michelle,
Michelle Winkles (01:36):
Thanks for that. Is such a great
compliment. Yeah, definitely inthe trenches, but excited to
talk about it and happy to goback and forth on this, because
this is a very importantposition that I'm in, and I know
that you know that becauseyou're working with so many CMOs
today. Yes, all right, so tellus a little bit about your role
and your firm, just to help ourlisteners understand your frame
(01:57):
of reference. Yeah. Missionwealth is a national Ria. We are
currently serving clients allacross the US. We have, are now
at about 14 billion in assetsunder management. We have almost
200 team members on our teamtoday, and we have over, I'd
say, over 35 locations acrossthe US. We serve all high net
(02:19):
worth individuals. And we aregrowing, growing fast. Okay?
Michelle, so you are passionateabout the journey to digital
within your firm, and everythingit's taken to get from where you
started to where you are, allthe learnings along the way. So
I would love, I know that that'sa lot like, that's a that's a
full mouthful, right? Yeah, somaybe start by giving everybody
(02:41):
a sense of the channels that youare using and sort of the
program that you have inside ofMission, and then some of the
learnings that you've come awaywith. We could do hours on this.
I know. I know.
Yeah, we got to fit this into a30 minute podcast. I know.
Okay, well, I think where tostart is to think about, at an
(03:04):
RIA firm, all the differentgrowth channels that there are,
right and marketing supports allof those growth channels. One of
the newer growth channels isdigital. I guess it's always
been around, but it hasn't beenas much of a focus as it is
today.
We think about the type of leadthat come in from these
different channels. There's B toB, right? There's custodian
(03:27):
referrals, client referrals, COIreferrals, and then there's M
and A, and you obtain clientsfrom those firms that you
acquire, right? And then digitalis its own baby. I mean, there's
not as much trust andcredibility from this lead as
there is from the otherchannels, right? So there's a
lot more marketing that goesinto it, right? There's a lot of
(03:48):
things that you have to do tobuild that trust and credibility
and to capture their attentionand make them choose you. And so
I've been tasked over the lastfew years to really build up
this growth channel, we believeit's very important to have
multiple growth channels at ourfirm and have leads come in. You
cannot rely on just one. And Iknow this was a full topic that
(04:11):
you spoke about with John,weren't a few episodes ago.
Don't just rely on one growthchannel. You got to rely on
many. So we do believe thatdigital can be successful if you
set it up the right way. And soI think one of the most
important things to do is makesure you have several things you
want to have, the team, thedollars, the time, the capacity
(04:35):
and the patience to build upthis channel. And so when I say
that, you really need to firstthink about your funnel and all
the different ways that theleads are going to come in,
right, and then how you're goingto get their attention. So
there's all that's marketingright? That's really where it
has always been as lead genbrand awareness, selling your
(04:57):
firm, building the collateral,the tools, your web.
Psi, all those kind of things.
And that's really where we wereat several years ago. And today,
you can't just rely on that andlet marketing stand there,
right? You have to think aboutthe full funnel, the top, the
middle and the bottom. And whenI think about my don't do that,
and I know that's your nextquestion, like, well, what's
(05:17):
your don't do that? Michelle,it's don't run marketing without
sales alignment, because I trulybelieve that sales needs to know
what marketing is doing andunderstand all the work that
goes into getting these leads sothat they find them just as
important as these other growthchannels. The other big lesson
is you can't a sales advisor forone channel is not going to be
(05:41):
as strong as a sales advisor forthe other. So one thing that
we've started to realize we needis a business development
advisor for digital only, andhave that be under marketing
someone. It's a unicorn, and I'mlooking for them today, and we
want to have many of these,yeah, but it needs to be someone
(06:03):
that knows advice, thatunderstands marketing, that is
great at sales, that can hookthat lead from the first phone
call, sell them on your firm,relate to them, understand what
their needs are, qualify themproperly, hold that intro and
keep the conversation goingalmost all the way through to
(06:23):
the sale.
Kelly Waltrich (06:26):
Not an easy gig that you are looking to fill for
sure. No, it's not,
Michelle Winkles (06:30):
But I know you're out there somewhere.
It's always been kind of a splitrole, right? There's the BDRs
who call and chase the leads andpre qualify them and then hand
them to sales. But we reallybelieve that digital sales is
unique, and we can, we can talkmore about that, but yeah
Kelly Waltrich (06:51):
For everybody that's listening, before we
started this conversation, I hadmentioned to Michelle that the
way that I'm thinking about thefunnel and the way that I'm
talking to intentionallyprospects is about is that
marketers are owning so muchmore of the funnel, and I think
that that's a perfect example.
Perfect example as to why,especially on the digital side,
somebody with a marketing mindneeds to take a digital lead so
much farther than maybe any ofthose other types of leads that
you mentioned.
Michelle Winkles (07:13):
Yeah, I feel like we've done a really great
job at getting lead. There's somany ways you can get lead. You
have money. You could just buythem right, right, right, but
you need to think about whoyou're buying them from and how
you like the tools that theyhave for you to really, truly
hone in on what kind of clientsyou want, because you can buy
(07:33):
leads, you can create campaigns.
You can do so many things to getleads, but if you don't handle
them properly. You're wastingyour time and money, right?
Kelly Waltrich (07:43):
It's so easy to waste your time and money. So
Michelle, I just, I'm just goingto take this from the frame of
reference, from the agencyperspective. I just had a friend
of mine at an RIA come to me andsay, Hey, we're going, we want
to start digital. We're ready.
We're doing this. And I'm like,okay, and I know this firm very
well. So I'm like, All right, Ihear you. I was like, I want you
to go out. I thanks for comingto me, but I want you to go out
(08:05):
and get a couple of proposals.
Just, just go do that, and thencome back to me. So they did
that, and they came back to me,and I looked at the proposals.
This was a good exercise forthem, and it was an interesting
exercise for me. And I sat down,and I said, Okay, so tell me,
like, what you see here. Andthey're like, Well, this one
says we're gonna get this manyleads with this amount of money,
(08:26):
this one says this many leadswithout this amount amount of
money. And then I just, like,launched into it, Michelle. I
was like, okay, all right. I waslike, Okay, well, I'm glad
that's what you got from thoseproposals. But here we here we
go. Here's what you actuallyneed to be thinking about, and
here's what you actually need tobe asking these folks. I was
like, so nowhere in thisproposal is anybody saying to
you that they know anythingabout your business and the end
(08:48):
consumer and what it's going totake to get to them. They have
no idea the asset levels or theminimum fees that you guys have
internally to know what type ofperson that you're actually
trying to get to and what it'sgoing to take. They haven't
given you any information aboutthe volume of searches in your
demographic. You know yourgeographic regions where you're
trying to go after they've givenyou no sense of cost per lead in
those areas. On top of that,these agencies, they don't
(09:12):
create the lead magnets, theydon't create the nurtures. They
don't get into your HubSpot.
They don't create the landingand like, you are so far from
understanding like, what this isgoing to take, like, so here's
the list of things like, here'sthe list of things that you need
to talk to everybody internally.
And this is only the startingpoint, because then, to your
point, it's like, Okay, so oncea lead comes in, what are we
doing with this? Who is, who iscalling them? What is their you
(09:34):
know, we all agreed at one ofthe round tables that it's 15
touch points minimum, right?
Like, who is doing that? Whatare those touch points? Is it
round robin? Are you giving themto someone who's best, most
likely to close so anyway, toyour point, it's like, if
Michelle and I can give you anyadvice today, it's like, digital
is a beast, and if you are goingto do it, you need to be well
informed, right? I mean, and Ithink you need to understand.
(10:00):
On the process from start tofinish, before you start having
conversations about who's goingto help you execute, because a
lot of people get one piece ofit right, And to your point,
time, money, energy, effort,it's out the window.
Michelle Winkles (10:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, everything you said I can
fully relate to that has been myworld for the last few years.
Yes, yes. We have such a greatteam, and I'm so fortunate for
that. I have a team of five atMission, and we all are a part
of the digital process. Everyone of the team members has
their own segment they're reallyresponsible for supporting,
which is, I know, a little bitdifferent of a marketing setup
(10:36):
than others, but I feel like itgives them a great path for
growth. Yeah, you can, they canwork with our champions at our
firm to learn more about how tosupport M and A or B to B or
digital. I did have oneindividual just focused on
digital. I realized, wow, thisis a team effort. We need a
martech person thinking abouthow all of these programs flow
together and feed the funnel.
And, you know, I know HubSpot.
(11:00):
You guys are fans of. We usePardot. It was called Pardot,
but a part of Salesforce, andthere is so much there to try to
understand and learn. So justthe education side around how to
use all these programs and howthey flow together is its own
thing. And then there's so manygreat tools out there, and
thinking about how you canautomate them and learn them and
(11:21):
optimize them, and they'recontinually evolving. And now
there's all these AI componentsand things like that. So to stay
ahead of what's out there, likethat's been a big goal of mine,
and something I've been focusingon learning all of these
programs there that areavailable to us and thinking
about how they fit into our techstack, right? And and there's so
many things out there, and youcan say, Oh, this is great.
(11:42):
Yeah, we need that. But do youhave the capacity to use it, to
manage it, to keep it up to par?
So that's another thing there.
Kelly Waltrich (11:49):
Yeah, so a whole nother thing. Tina and I have a
webinar later today on themassive amount of AI tech tools
that we're vetting and the onesthat we like and the ones that
we don't like, and why. And it'sintense to try to keep up with
all of it. And you know that howonly half of them are going to
be in existence a year from now.
So you also have to play thatgame.
Michelle Winkles (12:05):
I know that's one of those things everyone
talks about, oh, this, we havethis, and then, oh, it's not
really ready when you go to getit or learn about it, or it's
not fully flushed. And that's alittle scary.
Kelly Waltrich (12:15):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's some there's some
good things, and there'sinteresting things, and there's
some things to learn. I feellike my career at eMoney and
Orion was based on the inboundprocess, like I was an early
adopter of HubSpot. I lovedeverything about it, the gated
content, all these things, andnow it's all out the window,
right? It's all out the window,and you have to learn a
completely new marketing motion.
So we're trying to stay ahead ofthat, like fiercely and
(12:36):
intensely every day hereunintentionally, to make sure
that we can help firms thinkthrough the new ways of client
acquisition.
Michelle Winkles (12:45):
I think that is so great. And I'm signed up
for that webinar, so I lookforward to it. I've actually
been asked to speak on AI a fewtimes this year at different
conferences, and I'm like, Well,I'm not the expert. I can just
tell you how I'm using it andsome things I've learned along
the way, and it's just amazing.
I'm so excited about AI, and Iwish I had more time to learn
it. But if you're not using itnow, you definitely need to
(13:05):
start. You need to just startusing it simply in your day to
day life, and then think abouthow it applies to your role,
especially in marketing, becauseAI is so huge with marketing
right now, there are so manydifferent tools out there that
you can use to make your job somuch simpler. Yes, so much
easier. Yeah, yeah. You know,it's interesting. You said I'm
(13:26):
not an expert. I don't, I don'tbelieve when anybody says
they're an expert. Yet, there'sjust no way like it's too new.
There's too many things. DaveGerhard, he's like a B to B
marketing influencer. He hewrote in a LinkedIn post the
other day that, like, you don'thave to be an expert. There's no
experts yet. So do your best,like you just said, to figure
out what your problems are, whatyour you need to streamline, and
(13:46):
the best solutions in thismoment to do so. And it's gonna
evolve, and it's gonna change,and you just gotta try to keep
up. But that's marketing ingeneral, right? Yeah, you just
gotta try to keep up. I'm alwaystrying to keep up. I wish I
could do more. I wish we hadmore time in the day. But, yeah,
you just do, do need to have aneye open to what's out there?
That's very important. And Igoing to conferences to meet
(14:07):
with vendors for that reason, tokind of learn. How can you help
me not be scared to walk bythose booths and get stopped and
just be open minded tocontinuing to learn what's out
there and how things arechanging. Yeah, I think that's
really smart.
Kelly Waltrich (14:31):
So before we get into your don't do that that you
you sneak previewed anybodythat's approaching digital. Give
them, like, a couple of keytips, because this whole
industry is trying to get intoit. It's a very messy it's a
messy moment for digital in myopinion, based on the firms that
I talk to and what I see everyday, give them like your top
tips for starting,
Michelle Winkles (14:52):
For starting, I would, I'd really just one
thing I did was, don't be afraidto ask other leaders what
they're doing.
Right? Yeah, learn, like, whatworked for you, what didn't work
for you. You know, be open tohaving conversations and cross
sharing. I think that is justwhere I started. You can use AI
to ask, you know, hey, I work ata rea firm, and we're starting
(15:15):
digital like, what are the firststeps? Like, you could use AI
for advice, right? But for me,what I did is really just
researched what the marketingfunnel looks like, and I built
out the stages, you know, justthink about the process, how
they come in the differentchannels, like what, what are
their what are your goals foreach level of those, for each
one of those stages in thefunnel? And when you build out
(15:37):
those goals, then you need tothink about what tools you have
that can help you get thosegoals. My biggest tip is having
a really strong CRM andmarketing automation program.
You're really going to buildeverything in that trying to do
everything manually is justgoing to be overwhelming and
you're not going to feelorganized. So you definitely
(15:58):
want to have a good marketingautomation program. I know
HubSpot is great. We might betransitioning over to that one
day, but that's a really bigproject, and I'm nervous about
that. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,having a really great automation
program, making sure you havethe team, like, are you? Do you
realistically have the people tohelp build something like this?
(16:19):
And start small, I think, don'ttry to do everything. Don't try
to have paid campaigns and runads on social and buy leads from
these companies when you're notgoing to be managing them or be
able to manage that lead flowproperly. You just need to think
about those things. I mean,there's so many I could just
(16:42):
ramble on and on touch on thesales side, which is what is the
main don't do that is don't runmarketing without sales
alignment. So, yes, all right,so she gave it up. What we're
not doing today is we're notrunning marketing without sales
alignment. And I am verypassionate about this too. I
feel like I've talked a lotabout this topic, and I feel
very lucky having worked inorganizations with really great
(17:05):
sales leaders that understoodmodern marketing, but that is
few and far between in ourspace, I realize. And so there's
a lot of work to be done there.
And like you said earlier,Michelle, a lead coming from
digital is a totally differentbeast. I have lots of
conversations with prospectsabout that, I say to them, can
do you feel like you can reallyconvert someone that wasn't
(17:26):
handed to you from yourbrother's friend or your COI or
your your uncle or like yoursister, you know, like it's not
a referral? Do you feel like youcan take someone from a colder
position to close, and that is ait's an undertaking. Yeah, we
always thought, okay,marketing's responsible for
getting the leads and sales isresponsible for closing them. It
(17:47):
sounds so simple, right? But youknow, over the past few years,
I've just been so laser focusedon the top of the funnel efforts
and building the awareness andgenerating the lead and running
the campaign. And it worked, andleads came in. But the mistake
was that thinking that successended with a booked intro,
right? Because I'm like, Oh,look, we got 100 booked intros,
(18:09):
yay. Well, how many of thoseclosed? Well, I don't have
control of what sales is doing.
We have we're growing, right?
Like we're our firm. Look at ourgrowth. It's insane. You know?
It's doing great. Well, theconversion on digital is not
that great. I mean, I've seen somany articles out there and and
it's not just us, right? It'severyone. What is it like? Four
(18:30):
to six or four to 8% if peopleare lucky, if you're good, like,
lucky, yep, right? And so Ibelieve we were really
successful last year, you know,like, with converting, but we
could be so much better. Andlooking at it, it's like, well,
we had really great lead genflow. We had really great, a
high amount of intros booked. Itkind of dropped it held, and
(18:54):
then it really dropped atopportunity, and it really
dropped at closed. Like, well,that's a sales problem. Like,
well, that's a sales problem.
Like, well as cmo these days,like, our roles are evolving,
and it's not a sales problem,it's a marketing problem. You're
bringing in these leads. We needto think about why digital is
not closing, right? You know,and I'm sure this is an issue
(19:17):
with a lot of firms. It's like Isaid, it's not just us, and I'm
learning that everyone is kindof trying to rethink their sales
structure and their teams andhow to convert. Yeah. So the
last few months, I've reallybeen focused on that middle of
the funnel and bottom of thefunnel process, just that's the
don't do that. Don't just thinkabout the top. You have to
(19:39):
really think about your processand everything that can happen,
and all the ways you can supportthe sale, all the way to
conversion, yep. And so that'sreally re looking at your
funnel, and we've rebuilt ourfunnel so many times, and I'm
ready to rebuild it again, and Ihope my team isn't mad at me. I.
(20:00):
When I change it again, butyeah, there's, there's just so
many things to think about, butit's actually fun. And this is
the fun part of my job is whereyou can really be creative and
say, How can we get in front ofthem, and how can we stand out?
Right? Yep, one of the newprograms we're rolling out is a
testimonial program, and that'sgoing to help us build that
online credibility. I've beenlistening to so many different
(20:23):
podcasts and seeing a lot ofarticles on how to show up in AI
search, because that's the nextnew medium or region, right?
Yep, answer engine optimizationand testimonials are huge, and
media is huge, and I'm learningyou want a lot of stuff about
you all over the internet,right? And that shows your
incredible answer to someoneagree, right?
Kelly Waltrich (20:45):
Yep, yep.
Michelle Winkles (20:46):
So testimonials, we're really
focusing on that, and reviews tobusiness profiles on Google and
beingthose are just, I think, two of
my big tips that focus on yourreputation. Your reputation
management is marketing, right?
And all the places you show up.
So that's one thing, and digitalreally needs that credibility,
because when people aresearching for you, yeah, SEO is
(21:06):
the old way of of being found,but now we really need to think
about SEO and AEO. Yes, 100%
Kelly Waltrich (21:15):
so let's go back to sales and marketing working
well together. So I feel like, Ifeel like RIAs are taking a page
out of a SaaS marketingplaybook, because this is how
SaaS has been operating for areally long, a long time, and
it's really exciting to see. AndI feel like going about creating
a relationship with your salesteam in a way that is mutually
beneficial is, like you said, soimportant. So I wanna, I want,
(21:40):
let's both give some tips interms of how people can think
about that. I know for me,Michelle, what really worked
really well. So Kyle Hyatt wasmy counterpart at Orion for a
lot of years, and we had apretty sophisticated lead gen
engine and and we had SLAs foreach other, right like so my I
would say to him, and this isjust some some things for folks
(22:00):
who are listening to think aboutbut I would say to him, like,
okay, my commitment to you isthat I'm going to get you X
amount of opportunity. YourSales Team, X amount of
opportunities. They are going tocome in at a lead score of x or
higher, which means they've meta really important threshold on
the marketing side, they aregoing to fit within the ICP or
(22:22):
get weeded out prior to reachingyour firm or your team. In
return, what I need from you isa response time of x, like as
soon as somebody hits your desk,you need to turn around and you
need to respond quickly, but notonly quickly, you need to have
the right person respond withthe right skills and expertise
to handle that particularconversation. So if it was
(22:45):
billing or reporting or whateverit was at the time at Orion,
like we needed an expert,because a lot of people make the
mistake of putting their mostjunior people up front right the
BDRs and the SDRs, they'realways like the youngest, but
really that is the mostimportant conversation you're
going to have, because they'reeither going to continue to
continue to talk to you orthey're not. So yeah, and then
(23:06):
SLAs around, okay, based on themoney that we're spending, that
we're spending, not justmarketing is spending, we need a
certain conversion rate at everystage of the funnel. So you need
to stay accountable to me interms of X amount percent moving
to this stage, X amount percentmoving to this stage, X amount
moving to this stage, and Xamount converting. And if
(23:27):
they're not at any point, I needthe communication back to me to
be so precise in terms of whatis going wrong. Like, what do
you need? What did we not nail?
What was the question we missed?
What was the objection? So thatwe can make sure the next time
someone similar that goesthrough that funnel has a
different experience.
Michelle Winkles (23:44):
That communication and that feedback
is so important, and it's verykey.
Kelly Waltrich (23:49):
How do you know?
You know and it's very missingfrom most firms.
Michelle Winkles (23:53):
100% yes, yes, I've learned that as
well. It's missing. So how canyou fix that. How can you hold
them accountable? And I thinkthat's where I'm thinking about
automation, and we're likeengagement programs. Yep, help.
So asks who people that areaccountable, so you can see if
they've completed those pathsand it popped up in front of
(24:16):
them, right? People aren't goingto remember their kids, and
they're going to prioritize thelow hanging fruit and digital,
isn't that? Right?
Kelly Waltrich (24:26):
Yeah, I think that's really smart, serving up
tasks, and I also think at theend of the day, so between me
and Kyle just using us as anexample too, because we got to a
good place, but not without alot of work and a lot of trials.
But it was if you want to movesomebody out of the sales funnel
back to marketing becausethey're not ready. You need to
have a good reason. There's nolike this person isn't a good
(24:49):
lead, without giving us areason, because we'll go to war
over that. If I see there's 100leads with no good objection
reason, and I can't put themback well.
Into a campaign to start warmingthem up again, then that's where
we come together, because thatmeans that you're not collecting
the right amount of informationto make everything that we're
doing better,
Michelle Winkles (25:10):
Right? I know, yeah. I we use Salesforce, which
is a great CRM. And when you saysales funnel and marketing
funnel, I think at least on thedigital lead side, it's all one,
yeah, one funnel for the digitalso I built, I had built out with
my team the whole marketing andsales funnel there, but we
didn't think again of the middleand the bottom, like all the
(25:32):
automations there. We had builtall the great automations and
tasks and follow ups and cadenceand drip, email campaigns and
everything for the top. We gotthem all that intro booked, and
then I come to learn, some ofthose intros weren't held, or
they didn't show and theyemailed them once, and it's been
three or four weeks. Okay, wehave a problem. Very clear. Why
this conversion rate is down.
Well, how do we fix it? Sothinking about those kind of
(25:54):
things, what kind of tactics dowe need to create? This is where
marketing really steps in tosupport sales, but if you don't
have that feedback from sales,like, oh, they didn't show,
okay, and then what did you do?
Or or they did show. And now I'mwaiting them for them to upload
docs to get to this stage. Well,did you book that next meeting?
Just did you give them adeadline? Did you make them
(26:17):
feel? How did you ensureconfidence in our firm is for it
to be the best one. You know,they all have their own
processes, and some are reallygreat. Some are not, but you
have to kind of build that forthem, I think, and give them the
criteria. This is what you needto do and make sure they're
trained. One of the things thatI've, I've needed to do is meet
(26:39):
with those lead advisors, one onone and explain. This is how
we're getting them. This is whatyou should do. What are you
doing now? Where can we meet inthe middle? How can we how can
we support you? So again,communication is so key.
Kelly Waltrich (26:53):
Yeah, you know, I think for every marketing
leader out there, a goodconversation to sit down and
have with your advisors, or yoursales leader, or whatever that
looks like in your firm, is tosay that the marketing budget is
ours, like ours together. So ifwe want more money and we want
more resources so that we canbring you more leads, you have
to absolutely hold up your endof the bargain in closing as
(27:16):
many of them as possible,because I think it's so easy for
sales to be like, oh, a digitallead. I'm gonna put that to the
bottom of the list. It's atleast likely to convert. But if
you flip the script and makethem realize, like, Okay, well,
this well is going to dry up,because if we can't show an ROI,
then we're going to put lessdollars towards digital. You're
going to get less at bats.
You're going to make less money.
The firm is going to do less.
There's, like, a whole chainreaction, yeah. So I've always
(27:37):
tried to, like, haveconversations with marketing
leaders around like, Hey, thisis, this is our budget to get
this firm wins, and so let'sjointly figure out how we're
going to get the highest andbest ROI for the dollars that we
spend.
Michelle Winkles (27:53):
Right? I agree. And one thing you
mentioned earlier, too is, who'sthat front person? That's the
first person that elite istalking to. You're right. People
do make the mistake of puttingtheir junior executives or
specific type of BDR in front ofthem, and they're because
they're the ones chasing thecalls. You know, there's a lot
of things. They're texting,calling, emailing, right a lot,
(28:15):
and you said something like 11or 12 touch points. But when
they get them on the phone,what's their script. What are
they saying? Are they trained onhow to speak to them, how to
properly qualify, even not just,are they qualifying properly? Do
they understand what they'resaying? Right where I say, we
need a we've created this reallygreat role called a BDA, where
(28:35):
they know they're an advisor,but maybe they don't want to
manage clients anymore. Maybethey're just, they just want to
do sales, and they care aboutthe growth of the firm, and they
can speak to our firm and how wecan help that person. And a lot
of the time, leads will go intotheir full story, and that
junior person has no idea how torespond to them, and they're not
going to give them advice,though, it could turn off that
(28:58):
lead. So there's so many littlethings that can happen. And they
can ask about our firm and allof our services, and if you're
not trained properly to speak tothat, then that's a big loss.
You may have paid a lot of moneyfor that lead, or you may have
put in a ton of hours buildingcampaigns to get that lead, and
you just lost them, right? So itso it's so spot on. Yeah, you
(29:19):
need the right people in theright seat?
Kelly Waltrich (29:22):
Yeah, and those investors or those advisors,
whoever you're marketing towardsat your firm, they're pulling up
that person that they're talkingto on LinkedIn. And if they see
that they have zero experienceto be talking to them about the
topics, then that's another turnoff, too. You know, they're not
people are digitally savvy.
They're thinking about thesethings they want to know. Who
are they getting, who are theytalking to, and are they in a
(29:43):
position to provide them withall the information that they
need to make a decision?
Michelle Winkles (29:49):
Yeah. And you need to think about speed to
lead. I mean, I know we hear itall the time, but it is so
important. And especially like,if we're talking about
purchasing leads, and you choosethe provider, that's like a
three to.
One match. They're matching thislead with three people. Those
firms are going to get to themfaster if you're not on it. So
you want someone in that seatthat is responsive and quick to
(30:11):
get to them. And I've seen a lotof different tactics too. One of
the biggest learnings is, howare you getting to them? Are you
meeting them where they're atright? Do they want to be called
right away. Do they wanna betexted? Are they gonna read your
email? I feel like email isdown, like people are so
bombarded with emails. We dotrack the method that got them
(30:32):
to book, and we do see that fromphone calls. Phone calls is
definitely the top method, buttexting has definitely
increased, and how you build inmaybe a text automation into
your follow up that can be yourspeed to lead answer, like
you're texting them right away,we see more response with a text
before a call, which isinteresting you're using to
(30:55):
follow up, how you're chasing,who's chasing. Those are just
huge things to think about, veryimportant.
Kelly Waltrich (31:02):
And guys, listen, listeners, we're not
trying to scare you. It probablysounds scary. And we're not
trying to scare you becausedigital acquisition is like
becoming a not nice to have,like you have to be doing it. So
we're just trying to make yourealize that it needs to just be
wealth. It needs to be wellthought out. And if you're not
positioned well to do that,there are plenty of partners out
there that are and there arepeople like Michelle that you
(31:24):
can bounce ideas off of firmslike mine, that you can come to
and will execute on your behalf.
So there's so many ways to doit, but we want you to go into
it with your eyes wide open andknow that it's not, you're not
going to start paying for someleads and all of a sudden your
firm's going to blow uptomorrow. You know? It just
doesn't, it doesn't work likethat. Another thing Michelle, I
just want to talk about is I hada client who and I love you, in
(31:45):
case you're listening and knowwho you are, but I had a client
who came to us and said, aftersix months, this digital lead
acquisition isn't, isn'tworking. So and I, I can
generally tell upfront if that'sthe type of person I'm dealing
with, if I know. So it's allgood. I saw it coming my way.
This isn't working. And I saidback to them, All right, let's
(32:08):
talk about that. Let's let'sunderstand what's not working
like you and I have been talkingabout and I said, your website
traffic is up 780%your Contact Us form is up 77%
your downloads are up. I don'teven know what percent was like,
1,000% and you've gotten,I think, 372
(32:31):
people to come through your ads,identify themselves as having
your asset minimum and ask totalk to you.
Michelle Winkles (32:38):
And it's not working.
Kelly Waltrich (32:39):
So what's not working. So this is a challenge
that I have a lot, a lot, a lot,a lot. So Michelle, I want you
to give listeners, because Ithink more often than not, this
is the norm, like what you wouldfeel or do and act upon in that
situation.
Michelle Winkles (32:55):
Well, I would look at the data, right? So I
think it's very important toalways look at the data. Have
some kind of dashboard we'vebuilt, I think 20 marketing
dashboards in Salesforce for onefor each of our channels in
under digital, right? One forour sales marketing advisor to
use to have insight into whereI'm at and stay organized. But
(33:18):
what I would do is look at whereis the drop off I mentioned
earlier. And I don't know ifthis is in a conversation with
you or on this call, but we sawtons of leads come in. We got a
lot of our intros booked. Itstarted to drop off at held, and
then it really dropped off atconversion and opportunities,
right? So that, to me, islooking at data and saying,
(33:40):
Well, this is dropping off, anddiving into why, going into
those leads, and seeing, youknow what happened? And really
it was the sales. It was notthat they're not good sales
advisors, because we have greatsales advisors, but it's the
process that they need tofollow, to follow up, and how
(34:00):
marketing supporting that, andagain, that's the middle and
bottom of the funnel that wehadn't honed in on until, until
this last year. So what, whatone should do is think about
that and dive into each layerthere. So how do we get them to
attend that intro? Come up withyour tactics, maybe build out an
(34:22):
automation around that. I'veseen some other ones out there
that are pretty interesting.
Like, oh, we're gonna send thema digital coffee gift card, you
know, like, here's a coffeelike, to prepare for a meeting,
sending them things that they'reprobably thinking about up to
that meeting. What are the topquestions to ask the advisor
during this intro? Maybe justshowcasing videos so they can
put a face to a name of whothey're going to meet with.
(34:43):
Using video is really huge.
Helps build that trust, maybesharing some reviews or
testimonials from clients thatare like them. Yep, you're
thinking about like, how to getthem to be confident, to attend
that meeting, right? Holdingthem accountable. That's just
one example.
Well, the other would be, okay.
Well, they're not. These introsare being held, but then
(35:04):
nothing's happening. So you needto dive into your data and say,
like, Okay, well, where is itnot happening? Why is this rate
down? Go into those situationsand look at, you know, like,
what happened? Was there afollow up or not? Build up,
maybe a proposed follow up andstart there. I know there's a
lot more I can go into, but
Kelly Waltrich (35:25):
All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna lob one more
scenario at you, and then we canwrap it up. Okay, so you have
asset limits, right for firmslike or AUM, thresholds, yeah.
And it doesn't matter how goodyou are at Digital. You heard it
here first, you are always goingto end up with people who don't
meet that minimum, whether theyself identify as something else,
(35:47):
as having met the minimum, orit's just, it's just how digital
works, you're going to end upwith people that fall outside of
your geographic region. You'regoing to find you're going to
end up with people who don'tmeet that threshold. What is a
firm like yours doing with thosefolks?
Michelle Winkles (36:03):
Oh, interesting. We do have a lot of
those. Luckily, we did justlaunch a new program called
mission forward, working withfinancial that is a next gen app
that can serve those that don'tmeet our minimums. So now we
don't turn them away. We loveit. You know, we hold our
discovery call and we hand themto our business development
(36:24):
advisor to assess what serviceis best for them. We don't tell
them about the app right off thebat, because maybe they don't
want to just use an app. Theymight want more. So what we
found is just treating everyonethe same, getting them to that
intro and fully qualifying themin that intro, and then
suggesting the service that'sbest for them. But before we had
(36:46):
the app, we would let them knowabout our minimum. You could
cross refer them to an FC whichdoes build a great relationship,
so like Fidelity or Schwab, youcan suggest working with them or
a specific FC that's in theirarea, or like their region, or
you can recommend advisors thatoffer one time fees or or such.
(37:09):
So I think it's always good tojust have a good list, a backup
list, of who they could workwith if you're not the right
solution.
Kelly Waltrich (37:16):
Perfect. That's great. Yeah, we have a couple of
clients who are doing exactlywhat you're doing, and I love
it. I mean, you have to build,it's a whole nother program to
move people through to an appand make sure that you're it's a
whole nother it's a whole notherworld and a whole nother effort.
But I think that that it's niceto make sure that people are
served in some way. If they'recoming through and asking for
(37:37):
advice, you don't want to turnthem away.
Michelle Winkles (37:38):
A lot of the digital leads we get, are people
looking for a one time plan, orthey don't want a management
fee, so that's a challenge, butyeah, we will try to refer any
one time planners that we knowof in the meantime.
Kelly Waltrich (37:53):
Yeah, that's great. All right, guys, we
Michelle and I could talkforever, and if you want to
continue this conversation,we'll see you at future proof,
at the CMO collective in just acouple of weeks. But just as a
reminder, what we are not doingtoday is we are not operating
marketing in a silo. We'remaking sure that it's a very
well oiled sales and marketingcombination to get to the best
(38:16):
results for your firm. Michelle,anything you want to leave our
listeners with before we signoff.
Michelle Winkles (38:22):
Um, no, just if you're interested in the CMO
Collective, we can have thesekind of conversations. You know,
it's not just a future proof.
You can actually sign up, youknow, to be a part of it and be
in the know. We have digitalmeetings as well, and we're
always open to hearing what kindof topics that you want to hear
about, and we can expand onthem, so don't be shy. Say hi,
connect with me on LinkedIn andKelly, we want to be your
(38:44):
friend.
Kelly Waltrich (38:47):
Yes, we do. All right. Thanks everybody for
listening. Appreciate the time.
Michelle was really wonderful tohave you, and we'll see you back
here soon.
Michelle Winkles (38:55):
Thank you.
Kelly Waltrich (38:56):
Bye.
Thanks so much for tuning in. Ifyou enjoyed today's show,
subscribe to be notified whennew episodes become available,
and please consider giving us afive star review on Apple or
Spotify. This podcast issponsored by Intention.ly, a
financial services growthengine, design consultancy and
(39:17):
agency. If you want to learnmore, please email me at Kelly
at grow intentionally.com.
Thank you again for listeningand check back to hear what
we're not doing next.
Unknown (39:28):
The information covered and posted represents the views
and opinions of the guest anddoes not necessarily represent
the views or opinions of KellyWaltrich. The content has been
made available for informationaland educational purposes only.
You.
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