September 8, 2024 • 47 mins
Destiny Davis, the Chronic Illness Therapist, joins me to discuss the powerful connection between attachment styles and coping mechanisms for managing food allergy anxiety and trauma. Together, we explore how attachment patterns—secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized—influence emotional regulation and stress responses in individuals with food allergies and those caring for them.
The conversation explores how understanding one’s attachment style can help build healthier coping strategies, improve relationships, and reduce anxiety in challenging situations like allergen exposure and medical trauma. Destiny also provides practical tips for parents and individuals to recognize their attachment styles and effective tips for managing anxiety.
Destiny offers clinical insight and accessible advice for anyone looking to deepen their self-awareness and enhance their coping skills, whether they are managing food allergies themselves or supporting a loved one.
Episode Highlights:
-Attachment styles and our coping skills
-Mindfulness
-ACE strategy from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT): Acknowledge/Accept, Come back into my body, Engage with the world/my values
-Brene Brown: FFT (the [Fricking] First Time)
Quotes:
- "Pay attention to what your symptoms are without trying to make meaning" (a.k.a., constantly searching for THE diagnosis.)
- “Mindfulness is not a way to cure your anxiety. It’s a way to pay attention to your anxiety.”
- “Typically, if you are the type of person that fearfully moves toward a problem, you are likely more anxiously attached. And if you fearfully move away from problems, you're more avoidantly attached. Securely attached is when you know how to ebb and flow and move toward and away as appropriate, and there's not a lot of anxiety with it. It's more just a feeling of sureness and calmness...Fight is moving toward a problem, flight is moving away."
Action steps:
- Listen to the Chronic Illness Therapist Podcast: Podcast links — The Chronic Illness Therapist
- Go to Destiny’s website for groups and other opportunities: The Chronic Illness Therapist
- Check out Brene Brown’s work: Brené Brown (brenebrown.com) (I highly recommend starting with the book Atlas of the Heart)
#FoodAllergyAnxiety #AnxietyRelief #TraumaRecovery #AttachmentStyles #CopingSkills
Special thanks to Kyle Dine for permission to use his song The Doghouse for the podcast theme!
www.kyledine.com
Find Dr. Whitehouse:
-thefoodallergypsychologist.com
-Instagram: @thefoodallergypsychologist
-Facebook: Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, Food Allergy Anxiety Psychologist
-welcome@dramandawhitehouse.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
destiny-davis-lpc-cr (00:00):
typically, if you are the type of person
that fearfully moves toward aproblem, you are likely more
anxiously attached.
And if you fearfully move awayfrom problems, you're more
avoidantly attached.
attached is when you know how toEbb and flow move toward in a
way as appropriate, and there'snot a lot of anxiety filled with
(00:22):
it.
It's more just a feeling ofsureness of calmness.
hard struggles.
And so fight or flight, fight ismoving toward that, toward a
problem.
Flight is moving away.
Speaker (00:37):
Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear podcast, where we
dive into the complex world offood allergy anxiety.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amanda Whitehouse, food allergyanxiety psychologist and food
allergy mom.
Whether you're dealing withallergies yourself or supporting
someone who is, join us for anempathetic and informative
journey toward food allergy calmand confidence.
(00:59):
It's becoming more common thesedays to hear, talk about our
attachment styles.
If we're securely attached,avoidant, anxious, how our early
childhood experiences affect usthroughout our lives and in our
relationships.
But what does that have to dowith our anxiety?
And what does that have to do,especially with food allergies.
Destiny Davis, the chronicillness therapist is here to
(01:21):
help us understand just thatdestiny is a licensed
professional counselor inGeorgia.
She, someone living with chronicpain and illness, and she's also
the mother of young children.
Destiny has a private practicewhere she specializes in helping
people with chronic pain andillness.
And she also has a podcast onthe topic.
She specializes in working withpeople with hard to diagnose
(01:43):
health issues.
And working on things likecoping with their pain, managing
their stress, building healthierrelationships and healing, the
wounds from their experiences.
I'm so excited to have destinyhere to talk to us today.
Because in the allergy world,sometimes we feel like we're
alone and other people withallergies are the only ones who
get it, but destiny and Iexplore in today's conversation.
(02:05):
How.
There is overlap and what thecommonalities are and what we
have to learn and having commonwith other people who are also
managing chronic conditions.
Destiny is here to give us herbest tips and ideas on what she
has learned from her experiencethat can help us with.
What's on our plates.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (02:24):
thank you so much for being here with
me I'm really excited to haveyou bring a different
perspective because obviouslyhere on my show, we've been
talking so much about foodallergies, and I feel like you
can broaden the conversation forus and bring in some tools and
things that are helpful for usI'm really looking forward to
talking about everything.
destiny-davis-lpc-c (02:43):
Definitely.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (02:44):
Would you mind starting just by
telling us a little bit abouthow you got into, you know, your
specialization and chronicillness and, and then how you
ended up starting your podcast.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (02:55):
yeah.
So, I'm a licensed, professionalcounselor in the state of
Georgia.
I specialize in chronic illnessand along with that comes a lot
of, eating food fears bitdifferent than I think, like
living with food allergy, whichwe can get into.
But, I had my own kind ofmysterious chronic pain, chronic
illness symptoms.
(03:15):
I'm never really I did get a,like a Lyme disease diagnosis,
but even that diagnosis is alittle bit controversial in the
medical world.
And so I just found myself, aspace where there's so many,
misunderstood diagnoses and Idon't claim to know or
understand or have the answersto all of them, but things like
(03:35):
fibromyalgia, MCAS, POTS, EhlersDanlos syndrome, Lyme disease,
stuff like that, stuff thatpeople.
Historically have just been,told was all in their head.
And then now we have moreinformation about it.
even like with COVID people atthe beginning, we're trying to
say long COVID isn't a thing,y'all are ridiculous.
(03:57):
And then now like it's prettyaccepted, but.
At the beginning of that us,those of us with a Lyme
diagnosis were like on ourtiptoes, just like waiting to
see what would happen.
'cause it was a very similar,where chronic Lyme is considered
not a thing, but then it is inlike holistic circles.
it's very confusing.
(04:17):
and again, I still don't claimto have any, any of the answers
around that.
But I do help my clients dealwith living with confusion,
living with not knowing, livingwith the doubt.
Living with maybe overidentifying sometimes with a
particular illness, because ithas the most answers, even
though it might still not fullyfit what they're experiencing,
(04:38):
but what they're experiencingdoesn't have answers.
So that's where some of that cancome in.
so that's a little bit about myworks.
Yeah.
So far.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (04:47):
Yeah.
and I find, you know, most of usin this field, we laugh because
It's me search instead ofresearch.
Like we just always end upwhatever our lives bring.
That's what we learn about.
And then it, it just unfolds inour work naturally.
It seems.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (04:59):
Yeah, that is a perfect way.
Yeah.
I am going down a path right nowwhere I'm trying to learn more
about, for example, there's thisone, immunologist on Instagram
and she talks a lot, she hassome foundation about Lyme
disease, myths andmisconceptions and
disinformation.
And I'm trying to learn more inthat realm because.
(05:22):
I think that the answers almostalways lie in the middle ground.
I know what everyone says onthe, holistic side and what the
rhetoric is there.
And so now I'm trying to learnthe rhetoric on the other side,
so that I can then come to abalanced perspective.
So that's like my current, uh,thing that I'm doing.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (05:41):
Right, right.
Kind of get both sides so youcan have a comprehensive.
But there's always moreunfolding.
There's always more information.
And I think that's another, youknow, that's a good thing.
We want more information.
But that's another commonalitywith the food allergies is that
there's, we don't understandeverything fully yet and there's
always more to learn.
And then you kind of, at least alot of people swing between, I
(06:02):
want to know everything.
I have to stay on top of it.
And then we get overwhelmed andit's too much.
We can't take it in and processit.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (06:10):
Yeah.
And I think the only way to beable to stay up to date on new
research and keep learningwithout falling into that trap
of over researching to the pointof anxiety is by having a non
attachment to the outcome.
So you're not researching tofind a specific answer to a
thing to back up a point youalready want to make.
And you're also not desperate,desperate for a cure or some
(06:34):
specific answer.
If you are, then the research isgoing to be filled with tension,
anxiety.
You're going to be bracing thewhole time.
You're probably going to havethings like headaches and IBS
symptoms.
If that's happening as you'reresearching, then it's time to
take a step back.
And then once we kind of canground ourselves in the reality
(06:54):
of not knowing, then we canstart searching for information
again, which is a little bit, Ithink counterintuitive, but
that's how I, how I can stay.
Researching and reading withoutfalling into that trap.
That, that despair trap.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2024 (07:11):
I love that you tied that to the
body symptoms we don't know whento stop.
We don't know how to gauge,right?
But but if we are in touch withour bodies, they're telling us
where the line is and where toomuch is Can you expand on that
and talk not just with readingand researching but all of this
concept of like how we get weget so hooked on Finding the
answer right the definitiveanswer the diagnosis for food
(07:33):
allergies.
A lot of times it looks likeyes, you have food allergies
There's some chronic stomachpain coming along with it.
Is it part of the food allergiesor is it something?
There's, there's throat tension.
Is it anxiety?
Is it a psychosomatic symptom oris it something else?
And then, and that's where a lotof the clients I work with.
dive down.
So talk to me about how youaddress that with your clients,
please.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (07:54):
Yeah.
Well, first definingpsychosomatic, because I think
people, it has been used in thecontext of it's all in your
head.
And I still have clients, likesay, I don't know if this is
psychosomatic or something else.
And, and they really are sayingI don't know if this is real or
not.
Psychosomatic symptoms are realwhen you're scared and you brace
(08:16):
and then if you're scared 24 7and so you're bracing a lot,
you're really tight.
Your muscles are all tight.
Your heart rate stays a littlebit more elevated than it
should.
Maybe you're sweating, whateveryour anxiety symptoms are.
You have to kind of figure thatout for yourself because they
present differently in everyone.
If you're constantly in thatanxious mode, that is going to
(08:38):
produce, let's stick with likeIBS.
If you're constantly bracing,that is going to do something to
your intestines.
And so now, is it the food or isit anxiety?
That doesn't mean it's in yourhead.
The anxiety is real.
And the anxiety creates aphysical thing, like food can
(08:59):
create mental symptoms.
If we don't get enough ofcertain nutrients or too much of
certain nutrients, we can getdepressed or anxious.
If you've ever had too muchcoffee, you know what that's
like.
You're jittery and you feel likeyou're going to have an anxiety
attack and you're like, Oh, thatwas probably the third cup of
coffee that I had.
So we do understand this conceptat a very basic non emotional
(09:21):
level.
But then when we get into ourown kind of like trying to
figure out the answer, we canoverthink things around.
Again, it doesn't feel so simpleanymore.
It's like, wait, am I fakingthis?
Am I not?
There's no faking.
You're scared.
If you're scared, you're scared.
Your cortisol levels raise, allof that.
we, one, it's like a lot ofpaying attention to what your
(09:45):
symptoms are, but without makingmeaning of it, that I think is
the biggest thing I teachclients.
And I, I don't know that I thinkit takes a while to really grasp
they get it right away, but thenthey'll fall back in the trap of
trying to make meaning tooquickly.
So even if, so if you're thetype, you know, often one of the
(10:05):
biggest things that healthproviders tell you to do is
track your symptoms.
And sometimes, sometimes that'shelpful.
But most of the time, at leastin my, in the conditions that I
see the most in my practice,things that are mysterious, like
again, like lime pots, Epsteinbar, chronic, whatever it is,
those things tracking, I havenever found to be helpful with
(10:27):
any client.
I've never, I've never once hada client say, I tracked this for
two weeks and I found this exactcorrelation between every time
this happened and that symptomarose.
Never.
Have you?
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (10:42):
Well, the exception I would say is
with food allergies, but you'reright, because I think sometimes
we can and then, but sometimesit's also not helpful because
then people will eliminate 15foods from their diet that was,
that were just fine.
And I think my take on the wayyou're describing it, which is
such a good point, is that anytracking like that or trying to
make meaning that we do in ourheads is we get stuck in this
(11:03):
place of trying to justify.
We want validation.
We want to prove to the doctorit's real because it happened.
And like you said, we need tohelp people understand.
It's real regardless of what'scausing it.
We're not saying it's not real.
And I think that, you know, iswhat gets the walls to come down
without what you're saying, allof this analysis and an
(11:23):
interpretation
destiny-davis-lpc-crc- (11:25):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And not, and also depending onyour personality type, the
tracking itself can be anxietyprovoking.
And then that can lead you tonot do it, even though you've
committed to doing it.
But now you can't figure out whyyou just can't stick with it.
It's likely because writing thedata causes some kind of
emotional reaction that you're,you don't want to feel.
(11:47):
And so you avoid it completely.
Or if you're a bit more type A,you might over track every
little thing.
And now you're in this kind ofanxiety, neurotic filled state
again, creates some of thesesymptoms that we're talking
about.
So it's a hard question.
I think to answer, how do we fixthis?
(12:09):
How do we become more aware?
Because it's not a tip or atrick.
It's a practice.
practicing mindfulness.
Mindfulness is not a way to getrid of your anxiety.
It's a way to pay attention toyour anxiety., Mindfulness got
a, marketing.
facelift and it's touted as thisthing to cure so many things.
And it's like, that's like onepart of all of this.
(12:32):
That's just one tool to help youbecome more aware of what you
need to change.
The mindfulness helps you figureout what you need to change.
But going back to making meaningtoo fast, I always explain to
clients too, we have to collectdata and we have to collect
enough data points before wemake the, conclusion.
(12:54):
That's what scientists do.
They don't, a good scientist isnot going to say I did this one
study and it showed me this.
No, we need studies withmultiple, multiple, multiple
data points before we candefinitively say anything.
So that's the same thing withour body.
I think so.
We mindfully collect the data,whether that's in your mind or
(13:17):
on paper.
the same time, you have to beusing relaxation skills to help
relax your nervous system.
If if the collection of it makesyou jump to meaning making and
then it causes anxiety.
Or even the opposite if you leanmore toward avoidance.
might actually be too loose inyour joints and in your muscles
(13:39):
and in your, in your breath andeverything, our mind and our
body are connected.
if you've ever been calleduptight, like as a personality,
you're probably very have tightmuscles.
you've ever been told you kindof, you don't care enough, or
you're too relaxed, you probablyhave very loose joints, muscles.
Then that's just a clinicalobservation.
(14:01):
So it's not about right orwrong.
It's about what's working foryou or what's not working for
you.
And only you can determine that.
And you can only determine thatafter enough time and space has
been given with the data.
It just can't be a quick, likethis thing equals that thing.
It's not going to producequality, conclusions.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (14:23):
Right.
And I think that the goal ofthat is to meet an emotional
need.
It comes from anxiety.
I need an answer right nowversus I can sit with this.
And like you mentioned before,uncertainty is so difficult for
so many people to stay in.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (14:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you were talking earlier,you mentioned, um, you know,
with food allergies.
Yeah.
It's a little more, uh, it is alittle bit more immediate,
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (14:47):
Yeah.
Sometimes, not always, butsometimes it is.
When it is, it's reallyimportant that it's immediate,
but it's often not.
So that's even more confusing.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (14:55):
yeah, yeah, that's a good, that, that
makes sense then.
Right.
Because it, it's not clear cutand that's kind of, that's
That's why these podcasts exist.
That's why we're, we talk aboutthese things because there's
nuance and there's no clearanswer.
We're all living with, so muchdoubt, I think, and uncertainty
right now, too, just in ourenvironment.
Like, Finances and prices ofeverything rocketing, the
(15:19):
election coming up, there's somuch uncertainty.
And I think it's important toknow when we're talking about
symptoms in our body, everythingis connected.
So, you have an anxiety symptom,whether it's.
Because you're anxious aboutwhat work looks like tomorrow,
or the food you just ate, or theyou just took, and if it's going
(15:42):
to do X, Y, and Z, it's alsoconnected to our environment.
And how much, how uncertain andhow scared we feel inside is
going to also be affected by howuncertain our environment is.
Some of that we can control andsome of it we can't.
So that that's where it comesback into the therapy realm.
What do therapists do aboutthis?
We figure out what you cancontrol.
(16:04):
We help you figure out what youcan control versus what you
can't.
that's a part of a part of whatwe do.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (16:10):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think that's where, to tieit back to what you said about
mindfulness, there's There'sthis misconception.
We know there's all thisresearch and evidence that it's
effective, but themisunderstanding I think people
have is that it makes youmagically feel better.
Like I meditated, I don't feelcalm now.
And really that's to me, my, myunderstanding of the use of
(16:32):
mindfulness practices andmeditation is to get to a place
of acceptance of uncertainty oracceptance of the, whatever I'm
experiencing in my body rightnow.
And then sometimes that reducesthe Like you're saying, the
bracing or the resistance to itcan reduce some of the physical
symptoms or some of thecognitive, fighting back, but it
doesn't magically make you feelbetter.
(16:53):
And so then people like, eventhat doesn't work and they get
more frustrated.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (16:57):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The, it doesn't work part isreally hard because how are you
defining what worked and whatdidn't?
No one can tell you when you'vegiven enough time to something
and it's time to move on and trysomething else and stop beating
a dead horse with what you'retrying to do versus you haven't
actually given it a long enoughof a, a try and not from a shame
(17:21):
based way, but just it was hardand you don't have the right
teaching around it.
You haven't enough handholdingduring it.
Adults require handholding justlike kids, but we often forget
that.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (17:31):
You make another good point that I
want to stick with, if it'sokay, how do we define.
It's working.
How do we define I'm gettingbetter or, or therapy is
effective or whatever it is,because that doesn't usually
mean everything's great now andeveryone feels wonderful.
So will you talk about that andhow you work with that idea of
what better means?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (17:51):
Yeah, I think it's really, that's a
really difficult thing toanswer.
Some therapists will say, youknow, we have assessments,
whether it's like the, the verysimple GAD, where we, we measure
your anxiety on like a 10question scale, and they'll
assess, you know, the, the,Session 1 session, 10 session,
20 and and we want to see thatyou're, you're getting better.
(18:13):
According to the scale.
I, I don't use assessments likethat and now that I have
toddlers, it's easier to see itlike this, but we want that
answer so desperately, am Idoing better?
is this working?
I kind of liken it to a toddlertantrum and I go through this
myself.
It's a toddler tantrum where wewant what we want and we want it
right now.
we need an adult in the room whocan hold our hand and say, I
(18:36):
know you want that.
I want that for you and I can'tgive it to you.
So what, what do you need nowthat we can't get that?
I can't give you a clear answer,but I can sit with you in this.
And usually by the end of that,of the, as that emotion or that,
that phase has passed.
the client can come to some kindof clarity around, like, I still
(18:59):
don't have an answer if I'mdoing better or not, but I do
feel better in this way, or thislittle thing has changed.
And I don't think I could havedone that without the help of my
therapist.
That's how I also determinewhether therapy is working for
me as a client well.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2024 (19:17):
I love the metaphor and I agree
with you.
You're right.
Different clients need differentthings.
Sometimes they're found to bevery clinical and detached And
some people they're verymeasurable and tangible.
And, it depends on each person.
they have their place, but, Ilove your metaphor and it's,
it's getting my wheels turning.
When you're talking abouttoddlers and tantrums, and we
all have that reaction withinus, sometimes you're getting my
(19:38):
mind going about.
Attachment.
We were talking before aboutattachment in terms of clinging
to answers, but I don't want tolose my listeners.
My therapist brain is going toattachment as in are we securely
attached?
Most people are generallyfamiliar with am I anxiously
attached and how that, you know,ties into the nervous system.
The toddler and the tantrum isin the fight or flight mode.
(20:00):
And I know you do a lot of workutilizing that attachment
Perspective in terms of fight orflight, which I talked to my
audience a lot about, can youtell us what we need to know
about how to utilize that?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (20:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the like very simplifiedversion of how I describe
attachment styles is like,typically, if you are the type
of person that fearfully movestoward a problem, you are likely
more anxiously attached.
And if you fearfully move awayfrom problems, you're more
avoidantly attached.
(20:35):
attached is when you know how toEbb and flow move toward in a
way as appropriate, and there'snot a lot of anxiety field
filled with it.
It's more just a feeling ofsureness of calmness.
hard struggles.
And so fight or flight, fight ismoving toward that, toward a
problem.
(20:56):
Flight is moving away.
And we all do this too.
Even if you're anxiouslyattached, you might have some
avoidant tendencies.
If you're avoidantly attached,you might have some, anxious.
And then of course there's alsodisorganized, which is, I think
a whole different level of this.
the way that we react to ourbodies, whether it's a chronic
illness, symptom, food, allergy,whatever it is is line with our
(21:19):
attachment styles.
if you tend to be more, tightand bracing more of that
fighting stance, you movetoward, you're more anxiously
attached.
You're going to want to know allthe information.
You're going to get pissed offwhen no one cares to ask about
X, Y, and Z, and how dare they.
Not think about my kid in thissituation.
Whereas a more avoidant a stylebe, we're just, we're not going
(21:40):
to go there.
And I actually don't want anyoneto ask.
So we're just not going to go dothat., That's how I think it can
look.
and then towards your body too.
Well, am I going to allow myselfto feel this thing, this
symptom, and you might feel it alot, a lot, like you can't get
it out of your brain, moreanxiously or you might be
almost.
You don't feel it at all untilit's brought to your attention.
(22:04):
And that is a little bit moreavoidantly attached to your
symptoms.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (22:09):
That's so helpful.
I think that you did such a goodjob of describing what it would
look like because for people whoyou don't do what we do and have
the conversations we do everyday.
Even if they're familiar withattachment, they think that's
like, Oh, that's how I feelabout my parents.
This is how I behave inrelationships.
And you phrased it so well.
It's how do I respond to anyconflict or any problem in my
(22:29):
life?
That's why this is so,foundational for us in
understanding our styles,because it's how we approach
life.
It's not just our relationshipsto mom and dad.
We're not, you know, limited to,to that.
responding to them in that way.
It plays out everywhere.
So how do people gain a betterunderstanding?
(22:50):
What's my, what's my pattern?
And as you said, everyone canchange.
It doesn't mean you do this ahundred percent of the time, but
getting a better idea and thenobviously developing a
healthier, a more balancedapproach or a more helpful
approach.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (23:04):
Yeah, we need role models.
This is one of those thingswhere what's in my control and
what's not, I'm lucky enoughthat my husband pretty securely.
And so he was a very good modelfor me and I've known him for
now, you know, 15 years Dailyexposure to a secure nervous
system.
(23:25):
That to me is luck that was outof my control.
The part that was in my controlwas to stay in the relationship
and not leave it, deciding toobserve and, and when shame
popped up around my own anxiousattachment style, I feel fine
disclosing that because we allare, we all have our styles.
They're not right or wrong.
Right.
But when the fear and theanxiety popped up, it was my
(23:48):
decision.
Okay.
Decision, but also through I hadtools.
I had a practice aroundmindfulness.
I had all these tools at mydisposal to then make the choice
to again, stay in thisrelationship, to observe and not
fight.
I mean, trust me.
I fight, I fight sometimes, butit's not, but, uh, it is.
(24:09):
It is about, again, so there'sjust, there's parts you can
control and parts you can't.
If you don't happen to have asecure partner or somebody who's
around you a lot, we can look tobooks, characters in books, TV
shows, and try to do some interparenting work imagining that TV
character as our parent.
What would that be like to be onthe receiving end of that?
(24:32):
That kind of work can be hardbecause it often does bring up
so much grief if you didn't havethat.
But to start to understand howto securely attached to your
body is Understanding first towhere, where you land.
Are you more anxious?
Are you more avoidant?
Are you very disorganized?
Meaning there's a lot of bothand it goes back and forth.
Like anxious, anxious, anxious,avoid it, avoid it, avoid it.
(24:53):
And you actually like never knowwhere what's going to come next.
we want to get really in touchwith that first.
good acronym you can remember isThis is from Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy, but it'sACE, A C E.
Acknowledge.
Acknowledge what is therewithout changing it.
So Acknowledge or Acceptance canstand for A.
And then C is coming back intoyour body.
(25:14):
And it's still kind of inAcknowledging because you're
noticing what's there ratherthan trying to change it.
But you can also use your breathto get grounded, to recognize
you're in the present moment,realize what is rather than what
was or what will be.
a is acknowledged.
C is coming back into my bodyand then E is engaging with the
(25:35):
world or my values.
So in this example of how do Isecurely attach to my body soon
as something pops up, Iacknowledge what's happening.
I acknowledge the sensation.
I acknowledge the thoughts I'mhaving in this in order to
acknowledge and do that part ofthe acronym, you're pausing and
pausing is a really powerfulthing.
(25:56):
Mindfulness tool as well.
So this is very connected.
You have to pause in order tolabel the, the two end up being,
you're using two skills in one,really.
So you're pausing to acknowledgewhat's happening, thoughts,
feelings, sensations, what'sactually happening.
Maybe there's.
in the doctor's office.
Maybe you're, you just ate afood that is scary.
(26:17):
You don't know now, like ifsomething's gonna happen once we
acknowledge that, then we cancome back into our body.
Notice again, notice what'sthere.
take a deep breath.
notice your feet on the ground.
sometimes just pushing yourhands into each other or
squeezing your arms or yourlegs, anything that helps you
get back into your body.
(26:37):
And then engaging with yourvalues is if you're like talking
about food allergies and youhave to like go to go somewhere,
take your epinephrine or go tothe hospital, that's one thing.
if nothing dangerous ishappening, but there's a lot of
fear happening.
So we use the A and the C tohelp us get to engaging back
with the environment that we'rein, in a grounded way so that we
(26:59):
can live the life we want tolive.
So
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (27:03):
so helpful because, yes, for those
with food allergies, that's whatit comes down to.
I don't even want to go to thisbirthday party because they
didn't ask me about if the cakeis safe and my kid's going to be
upset because, and then the wayyou're describing it, we can
have that time to pause and toacknowledge what we're feeling,
have that time to come back andthen ground into what's my value
(27:23):
about this?
What do I want to show my child?
Or if it's an adult with foodallergies, how do I want my
life?
to be and look.
And do I want to choose out ofthat, that fear?
Or, you know, do I want toengage with both the world, the
relationships I have, the peopleI trust, and with my values and
the life I want to create?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (27:42):
yeah, exactly.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (27:44):
You mentioned, Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy, which issuch a great tool.
Can you tell everybody a littlebit more about that beyond the
tool you just described?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (27:52):
Yeah, I don't use it from a purely
behavioral lens, but it is abehavioral therapy.
but the behavior that we'retrying, trying to help you
engage in is the one that's mostimportant and meaningful to you.
It's not about shaming you intobehaving a certain way.
It's
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (28:07):
Right,
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she- (28:08):
out what's important to you using
tools such as the one I justmentioned to help you overcome
obstacles and obstacles can beboth physical or mental, fear,
anxiety.
If you don't want to feel thosethings, you will often not
engage in the thing inevitablywill provoke that, but it's also
probably a really meaningfulthing in your life.
(28:30):
If you have anxiety around thebirthday party, but now your kid
all his classmates always go toall the birthday parties and he
can't, we want to be able toengage in that if being social
is a value of yours, which Ithink for like 99 percent of us,
it is, and to make matters morecomplicated when it's you and
now a kid, you have to take intoconsideration your kid's values
(28:52):
too, which they can't verbalizeyet.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (28:56):
right.
And and your kids nervous systemback to co regulation.
And whereas my body, you know,acknowledge what's going on in
my body right now, but then howclosely tied that is to your
child's body.
And then how they'reexperiencing a situation or a
possibility or scenario.
It gets complicated.
I always trace everything backto our nervous systems.
And it's, it's so powerful whenyou were talking about models of
(29:19):
like, attachment.
I always smile and think ofbluey and that's why the show
bluey is such a huge hit becauseall of us parents needed that
model of what does a secureparent look like and we can
embody it.
We can imagine receiving it andit demonstrates the way you feel
when you watch that.
And my kids almost kind ofmissed it.
(29:40):
But like we all still like iteven though they're older
because it feels so good.
It changes what's going on inyour nervous system.
It's amazing.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (29:48):
yeah, that's a really good example.
Yes.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (29:51):
You mentioned grief, so obviously
that's a big part of several,perspectives in the ways that
we've been talking about thisgrief touches on all of those
angles.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (30:01):
Yeah.
This is all, I mean, we couldprobably do a whole podcast
episode on grief.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (30:06):
We could do a whole podcast on each
one of the things we've talkedabout so far.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she (30:10):
Yes.
Yes.
Basically grief is, is loss.
And so if you're living a lifethat you didn't expect to live,
whether it's because of a foodallergy or chronic pain, chronic
illness took something from you,like your ability to engage with
the world easily, there's griefand there's loss in that
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (30:31):
Yeah.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (30:31):
thing that's complicated.
And I think is.
It doesn't always have to bethat way.
And that's really what we'retalking about.
Like, we can engage in the worldalmost Almost no matter what, my
dad is blind, but he paints, he,there's someone who helps him
with the colors and then he useshis hands to paint on the
canvas.
And so are usually ways aroundsome of these things, the point
(30:53):
I'm making is like grief isanything that you no longer have
that you still want because ifyou lose something and you
didn't care about it, there's nogrief.
It's just like, oh, thank you.
I didn't want that in my life.
It's gone.
So if you still want it and it'snot there, there's grief and
that is reasonable expected.
(31:15):
And when we are grieving, whatwe need is support.
We need someone who can look atus and say, that is really hard.
And I'm, I'm here with youthrough it.
Not here's how you can thinkdifferently and be better.
You know, I did mention the ofmy dad painting, but.
That took 15 years after he losthis eyesight before that started
(31:36):
happening.
That was not like a, don't be,don't be scared.
Don't be sad.
You're blind now.
You can still paint.
Like that would just beterrible.
You know, we don't, that's notwhat we're talking about here.
You have to go through sadness,anger, all of the things before
you can get to a place whereyou're like, I want to re engage
now from a place of I can dorather than what I've lost.
(32:00):
It's a little bit morecomplicated when you have kids
because like that grievingprocess, on how long it is and
how severe it is, can take awayfrom your kid's life.
Um, and so when that'shappening, want all the support
we can get.
We want somebody else who'strusted, who can take them to
the birthday party andunderstands their allergies
while I'm grieving the loss ofwhatever it is I'm grieving.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (32:22):
That's such a good point.
You need to know what it isyou're grieving.
Are you grieving that I can't goto the birthday party?
Are you grieving, now my child'slife might not ever look like
this?
You have to know what it isbefore you can move through it
and heal in the way you'redescribing, right?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc- (32:37):
Exactly.
So sometimes you need that time.
And the way that we reflect onthings is different, again,
based on our personality types,some people need to be alone in
a room journaling.
Some people need to be out withother people, verbally
processing.
I think that's one of thehardest things for a lot of my
clients, the, the desire to talkabout their chronic pain and
(32:59):
chronic illness, but no onewants to hear it.
They just hear it as you'recomplaining all the time.
some of us are verbalprocessors.
And in order to actually movethrough this, we need to talk
about it a lot.
And so it's, it can be hard tofind someone who's willing to
sit in that with us and, and noteventually be like, I'm tired of
hearing you complain.
It's like, I'm not, I'm not,yes, it's a complaint.
(33:19):
And also this is how I getthrough to the other side.
So it's hard, it's hard, likeknowing what you, what you need
and what you want.
And then also finding it
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (33:28):
Yeah, you not only have to know what
you're grieving But then howdoes my body and my mind want to
work through this and what do Ineed in order?
To do that.
What's the context?
What do you say to people?
Struggling with what you're youknow Describing because I think
in the food allergy world a lotof us just we just talk to other
moms on the phone Social mediagroups who understand what we're
going through.
And then I think there's less ofa like, oh, you're getting sick
(33:50):
of me talking about this, but weneed that in real life, I think,
too.
And it's hard to find.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (33:55):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, my clients too, samething.
There's a lot of Facebook groupsfor like all the different
chronic illnesses.
There's some that are moregeneral chronic illness groups,
and those are helpful places.
To at least be validated in whatyou're experiencing.
The other thing too, is likewhen it comes to complaining,
quote, complaining, it's like,sometimes you actually, it does
like hurt you to, to keep goingdown that path.
(34:17):
It kind of feels spirally.
And so it just depends on thesituation, but I do work with
clients around, do we help youBalance what you're talking
about, but for you, not becauseyou're scared of not being liked
or not being wanted.
That's never a good motivator.
It might motivate you, but thenyou can't connect genuinely with
people because you're resentingthem while you're suppressing
(34:39):
what think you need to do to getliked.
So it's it's really it's youneed so much trial and error.
We want to like dip our toesinto the conversation and see
how, how far can I go with thiswhile it's still safe.
And when I get that cue fromsomeone else that it's too much,
one, I have to not take thatpersonally.
Yes.
(34:59):
It's all that's on my mindbecause it's in my life, but
what about their life?
Am I asking about their life?
Do you, what, what do I knowabout them?
When we're talking about formingrelationships, like what do they
want to talk about?
And maybe I've, I've gone toofar in this conversation, just
focused on me, or maybe Ihaven't, I haven't talked about
(35:19):
me enough.
And now they feel uncomfortablecontinuing to talk about
themselves because I'm notsharing vulnerably either.
So go both ways.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (35:29):
And that's so important because I
think, yeah, when we hold back,we don't realize we're just
thinking, I don't want to burdenor annoy someone, but we don't
realize that we might be sendingthe message of, I, you know, I'm
uncomfortable accepting helpfrom you and therefore don't
reach out to me for help either.
It kind of shuts down thecommunication.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-he (35:46):
I think it goes right back to how,
we engage with everything basedon our attachment styles, how
you're figuring out how to havethese conversations with people
is also going to like mirrorwhat your attachment style is.
And we have to be willing to.
Not have so much like, okay, togo into it and I'm going to say
this thing.
And I'm, if I say it this rightway, they will understand.
(36:09):
They might not.
And then you're left feelingbroken.
Like either I'm so terrible.
No one understands me or theworld is horrible because
they're not willing to listen.
And it just, it takes so manyconversations to build
relationship.
have to be willing to engage inthat relationship over and over
(36:31):
and over again.
Even if the result of oneconversation is not what we want
it to be.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (36:38):
Right.
Right.
And I think then back to whatyou described about checking in
with the nervous system.
We don't want to have oneconversation where we feel like,
Unheard and then have ournervous system kick in.
We're in fight or flight.
And then we're responding fromthat place versus what's like
you said, what's my value?
I want to develop a deeperrelationship with this person in
(36:58):
person and have mutualunderstanding that doesn't come
from a place of fight or flightreaction to an individual
conversation.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc- (37:07):
Exactly.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2024 (37:09):
I think that that touches to on,
you know, your perspective forpeople with all kinds of chronic
illness and chronic medicalstuff.
I think it's good to mention andgood to acknowledge.
We feel alone in our littlebubble.
Probably many people withspecific things do as well, but
there's so much overlap that wecan share with people managing
(37:29):
other things in terms of.
relating and understanding orproviding support that's similar
that's needed.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (37:37):
Yeah, exactly.
one of the, one of the thingsI've, I've tried to start groups
so many times.
If you're on my email list, youwill know this because I will, I
will put out emails to start agroup and then I'll give updates
and then it's like, Oh, sorry.
Group's not happening.
Cause there wasn't enough peopleto actually say yes and commit
to it.
(37:58):
Um, and that, and the feedback Ioften hear when people say no is
they're not going to understand.
Like the other people in thegroup are not going to
understand and especially Idon't do specific diagnoses in
my groups, it's, it's a, um,whatever chronic illness you
have, um, because there's somuch overlap in it.
(38:18):
I don't see a lot of differenceand, um, thinks that their case
is, is, is, um, Is too differentfor anyone else to understand.
And I think that comes from,again, how we were raised.
Uh, if you, if you were neverunderstood by your parents or
your, your, your school is a bigpart of this.
If you had teachers whoconstantly kind of the culture
in the school was very likeinvalidating, or it just wasn't
(38:40):
what you needed, then you growup to learn that no one, no one
could possibly understand you.
So yeah, it's very layered.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-2 (38:49):
Another layer of that that I want to
touch on is, in our world,probably in a lot of the people
that you work with too, often ifwe're talking about a child and
the child's condition or illnessor medical situation, many of
the people I work with arefeeling that they're carrying
everything alone in addition to,reaching out and building these
relationships and socialnetworks and trust.
(39:11):
can you talk about, that conceptof like, you have to put your
own oxygen mask on first, butthat is useless advice when
someone doesn't know where tostart.
And when the nervous system isactivated by anything we try to
do that we feel like compromisesour child's safety or security,
or, you know, takes time awayfrom them.
what does that actually looklike in terms of taking care of
(39:32):
yourself?
As a, as a caregiver of someone.
It's
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (39:36):
Yeah, that's a good question and the
reason I pause is because it isso it's individualized and it is
based on what your nervoussystem likes and doesn't like.
But if you don't know, then thatthat in and of itself is a
journey and a process.
I think it brings us back to theconcept of doubt and
uncertainty.
When you're trying to figure outwhat it is, I like what it is.
(39:59):
I don't like what it is.
I need emotionally.
What is my oxygen mask?
It's a lot of being willing totry different things for me.
Like, seriously, it's like, saltbaths four times a week.
I have chronic pain.
Notice a difference when I gomore than like two or three days
(40:19):
without a bath.
15 years ago, it was like sit ina bath for like 20 minutes.
My mind couldn't.
The idea of being alone with mythoughts for 20 minutes was
terrifying.
through all this work was like,I realized that was the problem.
I don't, it's not that I don'thave the time for a 20 minute
bath.
It's that I am terrified to bealone with my thoughts for 20
minutes.
(40:41):
That's what mindfulness does foryou.
It brings light to this.
Once you realize that, now youcan say, okay.
But I know that Epsom salt seemsto be really good for muscles,
aches and soreness and whatnot,and I want to try it, and I want
to do this thing.
So I have to be willing to sitwith myself for 20 minutes, even
though I'm going to be scared.
(41:02):
So if you keep trying newthings, but you expect it not to
be hard, setting yourself up forfailure.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (41:10):
so important to emphasize it
doesn't magically work the firsttime.
Anything new that you try toinstitute your body is going to,
it's going to feel different anduncomfortable.
Not, Oh, that was exactly what Ineeded.
I'm better now.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she (41:23):
yes.
Yeah.
Rene Brown calls it the FFT thefricking time as it's.
So it's so every first timecomes with obstacles, fears,
anxieties, hardships, uh, andso, yeah, can't really judge
almost anything around the firsttime.
(41:45):
Now you can start to judgesomething based on patterns of
behavior.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2 (41:49):
like everything else you're talking
about, it's a process, not a onetime deal.
It's a, it's a multiple stepprocess of like, okay, and now
I'm going to try this one, ormaybe it's a restaurant, a new
restaurant you're afraid of.
And each time you do that,tuning in with your body's
responses versus.
FFT.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (42:08):
yeah, exactly.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (42:09):
So what is your, if you haven't
already shared it, what's yourgo to, what's your like golden
nugget that you love to giveyour clients?
Anyone managing somethingchronic like this and how, how
difficult it can be.
What's a surefire, everybodyneeds to know this.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-he (42:25):
I do think it's, what we've really
been talking about aroundmindfulness, not being a cure,
but a tool to help you becomemore aware.
and then the ACE acronym issomething I share with many,
many clients.
just remembering that it's apractice and not, a thing that's
going to automatically give youinsight either the insight comes
(42:46):
through trial and error throughrepetition.
Meanwhile, also knowing whatyour foundation is that you can
keep coming back to over andover and over again.
Again, whether that's like forme, baths are a part of that.
Knowing that, I worked myselfinto eating three meals a day.
That was really hard for me inthe past.
(43:07):
I know I get more anxious.
Sometimes I get jittery.
Okay.
As if I had too much coffee, butit's because I've gone too long
without eating.
I know that only through so manyyears of like mindful awareness
around what's happening withoutjumping to the meaning making.
That's I think the, the takeawayhere.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (43:28):
That's so helpful.
Thank you.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (43:30):
Yeah,
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (43:31):
Is there anything that you had
thoughts about or wanted tomention that you think would be
helpful for, for my crew here onthis show?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-h (43:38):
I, talk about chronic illness.
If you have other intersectingstuff on my podcast, the chronic
illness therapist, I now have adirectory up for therapists who.
Specializing chronic illness.
So that you can find someone inyour state who understands what
you're going through.
On one hand, you don't needsomeone who knows exactly your
(43:58):
illness.
But on the other hand, it ishelpful to in a lot of ways when
it comes to like knowledge andresources it is helpful to have
somebody who has livedexperience with the specific
condition that you're dealingwith, whether that's food
allergy or PCOS or Lyme diseaseor whatever it is.
and if you can't find someone inyour state with your exact
cause, It is also just helpfulto have someone who understands
(44:22):
the grief and on all of theoverarching things that come
along with this through achronic illness perspective,
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (44:28):
And you have an email sign up.
Your groups might be helpful toa lot of people listening
because kids with food allergiesand adults with food allergies
are prone to other, diagnosesmore so than the average person.
And then within our families,most of us have more things
going on than, than the average.
So.
How do we people sign up foryour email list?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (44:49):
Yeah.
If you go to my website, there'semail sign up there and I'll,
I'll give you a link as well foryour show notes.
And I do a workshop at least onea month, sometimes two around
different, emotional, thingsthat we might like one, one was
like on ADHD and chronic pain.
one was on how to not feel likea burden, to your friends and
family.
So those are some past examplesand, Yeah, I do those every
(45:11):
month that you can sign up forthat on my, on my, my website is
the chronic illness therapist.
com.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (45:17):
Great.
And we will put everything inthe notes so people can find it.
And the last question I like toask everybody is just what,
what's one great thing aboutmanaging a chronic illness?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-he (45:29):
I just think it teaches you so
much about yourself.
If you let it, if you use it asa mirror, you learn more about
yourself.
And if that's important to you,then, then that's a great thing.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2 (45:40):
Good point.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show, Destiny.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--s (45:44):
Thanks so much.
Here are three steps you cantake today to take some action
on what you've learned intoday's conversation.
Number one, listen to Destiny'sgreat podcast.
It's easy to find the chronicillness therapist podcast.
I'll put the links in the shownotes and number two, I'll also
put a link to her website andthey show notes also very easy
(46:06):
to find the chronic illnesstherapist.com.
Number three during ourconversation, destiny dropped
some hints about one of my veryfavorite people working in this
field.
Brenae brown.
Trust me, if you want tounderstand your fears, this is
the woman to teach you.
Bernays website is Bernaybrown.com, B R E N E B R O w
(46:29):
n.com links in the notes.
She has podcasts.
She has lots of books.
She has resources on herwebsite.
I highly recommend for thelisteners on this show.
If you haven't read anything byher, starting with the book, the
Atlas of the heart.
That is kind of like anencyclopedia of your emotions
discussed in a way that youprobably never heard anyone talk
(46:49):
about them before.
Super useful tools along witheverything that destiny has
taught us today about managingour emotions and how we cope
with stressors in our lives.
the content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only, andis not a substitute for
professional medical or mentalhealth advice, diagnosis, or
treatment.
(47:10):
If you have any questions aboutyour own medical experience or
mental health needs, pleaseconsult a professional.
I'm Dr.
Amanda White house.
Thanks for joining me.
And until we chat again,remember don't feed the fear.
typically, if you are the type of person
that fearfully moves toward aproblem, you are likely more
anxiously attached.
And if you fearfully move awayfrom problems, you're more
avoidantly attached.
attached is when you know how toEbb and flow move toward in a
way as appropriate, and there'snot a lot of anxiety filled with
(00:22):
it.
It's more just a feeling ofsureness of calmness.
hard struggles.
And so fight or flight, fight ismoving toward that, toward a
problem.
Flight is moving away.
Speaker (00:37):
Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear podcast, where we
dive into the complex world offood allergy anxiety.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amanda Whitehouse, food allergyanxiety psychologist and food
allergy mom.
Whether you're dealing withallergies yourself or supporting
someone who is, join us for anempathetic and informative
journey toward food allergy calmand confidence.
(00:59):
It's becoming more common thesedays to hear, talk about our
attachment styles.
If we're securely attached,avoidant, anxious, how our early
childhood experiences affect usthroughout our lives and in our
relationships.
But what does that have to dowith our anxiety?
And what does that have to do,especially with food allergies.
Destiny Davis, the chronicillness therapist is here to
(01:21):
help us understand just thatdestiny is a licensed
professional counselor inGeorgia.
She, someone living with chronicpain and illness, and she's also
the mother of young children.
Destiny has a private practicewhere she specializes in helping
people with chronic pain andillness.
And she also has a podcast onthe topic.
She specializes in working withpeople with hard to diagnose
(01:43):
health issues.
And working on things likecoping with their pain, managing
their stress, building healthierrelationships and healing, the
wounds from their experiences.
I'm so excited to have destinyhere to talk to us today.
Because in the allergy world,sometimes we feel like we're
alone and other people withallergies are the only ones who
get it, but destiny and Iexplore in today's conversation.
(02:05):
How.
There is overlap and what thecommonalities are and what we
have to learn and having commonwith other people who are also
managing chronic conditions.
Destiny is here to give us herbest tips and ideas on what she
has learned from her experiencethat can help us with.
What's on our plates.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (02:24):
thank you so much for being here with
me I'm really excited to haveyou bring a different
perspective because obviouslyhere on my show, we've been
talking so much about foodallergies, and I feel like you
can broaden the conversation forus and bring in some tools and
things that are helpful for usI'm really looking forward to
talking about everything.
destiny-davis-lpc-c (02:43):
Definitely.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (02:44):
Would you mind starting just by
telling us a little bit abouthow you got into, you know, your
specialization and chronicillness and, and then how you
ended up starting your podcast.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (02:55):
yeah.
So, I'm a licensed, professionalcounselor in the state of
Georgia.
I specialize in chronic illnessand along with that comes a lot
of, eating food fears bitdifferent than I think, like
living with food allergy, whichwe can get into.
But, I had my own kind ofmysterious chronic pain, chronic
illness symptoms.
(03:15):
I'm never really I did get a,like a Lyme disease diagnosis,
but even that diagnosis is alittle bit controversial in the
medical world.
And so I just found myself, aspace where there's so many,
misunderstood diagnoses and Idon't claim to know or
understand or have the answersto all of them, but things like
(03:35):
fibromyalgia, MCAS, POTS, EhlersDanlos syndrome, Lyme disease,
stuff like that, stuff thatpeople.
Historically have just been,told was all in their head.
And then now we have moreinformation about it.
even like with COVID people atthe beginning, we're trying to
say long COVID isn't a thing,y'all are ridiculous.
(03:57):
And then now like it's prettyaccepted, but.
At the beginning of that us,those of us with a Lyme
diagnosis were like on ourtiptoes, just like waiting to
see what would happen.
'cause it was a very similar,where chronic Lyme is considered
not a thing, but then it is inlike holistic circles.
it's very confusing.
(04:17):
and again, I still don't claimto have any, any of the answers
around that.
But I do help my clients dealwith living with confusion,
living with not knowing, livingwith the doubt.
Living with maybe overidentifying sometimes with a
particular illness, because ithas the most answers, even
though it might still not fullyfit what they're experiencing,
(04:38):
but what they're experiencingdoesn't have answers.
So that's where some of that cancome in.
so that's a little bit about myworks.
Yeah.
So far.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (04:47):
Yeah.
and I find, you know, most of usin this field, we laugh because
It's me search instead ofresearch.
Like we just always end upwhatever our lives bring.
That's what we learn about.
And then it, it just unfolds inour work naturally.
It seems.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (04:59):
Yeah, that is a perfect way.
Yeah.
I am going down a path right nowwhere I'm trying to learn more
about, for example, there's thisone, immunologist on Instagram
and she talks a lot, she hassome foundation about Lyme
disease, myths andmisconceptions and
disinformation.
And I'm trying to learn more inthat realm because.
(05:22):
I think that the answers almostalways lie in the middle ground.
I know what everyone says onthe, holistic side and what the
rhetoric is there.
And so now I'm trying to learnthe rhetoric on the other side,
so that I can then come to abalanced perspective.
So that's like my current, uh,thing that I'm doing.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (05:41):
Right, right.
Kind of get both sides so youcan have a comprehensive.
But there's always moreunfolding.
There's always more information.
And I think that's another, youknow, that's a good thing.
We want more information.
But that's another commonalitywith the food allergies is that
there's, we don't understandeverything fully yet and there's
always more to learn.
And then you kind of, at least alot of people swing between, I
(06:02):
want to know everything.
I have to stay on top of it.
And then we get overwhelmed andit's too much.
We can't take it in and processit.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (06:10):
Yeah.
And I think the only way to beable to stay up to date on new
research and keep learningwithout falling into that trap
of over researching to the pointof anxiety is by having a non
attachment to the outcome.
So you're not researching tofind a specific answer to a
thing to back up a point youalready want to make.
And you're also not desperate,desperate for a cure or some
(06:34):
specific answer.
If you are, then the research isgoing to be filled with tension,
anxiety.
You're going to be bracing thewhole time.
You're probably going to havethings like headaches and IBS
symptoms.
If that's happening as you'reresearching, then it's time to
take a step back.
And then once we kind of canground ourselves in the reality
(06:54):
of not knowing, then we canstart searching for information
again, which is a little bit, Ithink counterintuitive, but
that's how I, how I can stay.
Researching and reading withoutfalling into that trap.
That, that despair trap.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2024 (07:11):
I love that you tied that to the
body symptoms we don't know whento stop.
We don't know how to gauge,right?
But but if we are in touch withour bodies, they're telling us
where the line is and where toomuch is Can you expand on that
and talk not just with readingand researching but all of this
concept of like how we get weget so hooked on Finding the
answer right the definitiveanswer the diagnosis for food
(07:33):
allergies.
A lot of times it looks likeyes, you have food allergies
There's some chronic stomachpain coming along with it.
Is it part of the food allergiesor is it something?
There's, there's throat tension.
Is it anxiety?
Is it a psychosomatic symptom oris it something else?
And then, and that's where a lotof the clients I work with.
dive down.
So talk to me about how youaddress that with your clients,
please.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (07:54):
Yeah.
Well, first definingpsychosomatic, because I think
people, it has been used in thecontext of it's all in your
head.
And I still have clients, likesay, I don't know if this is
psychosomatic or something else.
And, and they really are sayingI don't know if this is real or
not.
Psychosomatic symptoms are realwhen you're scared and you brace
(08:16):
and then if you're scared 24 7and so you're bracing a lot,
you're really tight.
Your muscles are all tight.
Your heart rate stays a littlebit more elevated than it
should.
Maybe you're sweating, whateveryour anxiety symptoms are.
You have to kind of figure thatout for yourself because they
present differently in everyone.
If you're constantly in thatanxious mode, that is going to
(08:38):
produce, let's stick with likeIBS.
If you're constantly bracing,that is going to do something to
your intestines.
And so now, is it the food or isit anxiety?
That doesn't mean it's in yourhead.
The anxiety is real.
And the anxiety creates aphysical thing, like food can
(08:59):
create mental symptoms.
If we don't get enough ofcertain nutrients or too much of
certain nutrients, we can getdepressed or anxious.
If you've ever had too muchcoffee, you know what that's
like.
You're jittery and you feel likeyou're going to have an anxiety
attack and you're like, Oh, thatwas probably the third cup of
coffee that I had.
So we do understand this conceptat a very basic non emotional
(09:21):
level.
But then when we get into ourown kind of like trying to
figure out the answer, we canoverthink things around.
Again, it doesn't feel so simpleanymore.
It's like, wait, am I fakingthis?
Am I not?
There's no faking.
You're scared.
If you're scared, you're scared.
Your cortisol levels raise, allof that.
we, one, it's like a lot ofpaying attention to what your
(09:45):
symptoms are, but without makingmeaning of it, that I think is
the biggest thing I teachclients.
And I, I don't know that I thinkit takes a while to really grasp
they get it right away, but thenthey'll fall back in the trap of
trying to make meaning tooquickly.
So even if, so if you're thetype, you know, often one of the
(10:05):
biggest things that healthproviders tell you to do is
track your symptoms.
And sometimes, sometimes that'shelpful.
But most of the time, at leastin my, in the conditions that I
see the most in my practice,things that are mysterious, like
again, like lime pots, Epsteinbar, chronic, whatever it is,
those things tracking, I havenever found to be helpful with
(10:27):
any client.
I've never, I've never once hada client say, I tracked this for
two weeks and I found this exactcorrelation between every time
this happened and that symptomarose.
Never.
Have you?
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (10:42):
Well, the exception I would say is
with food allergies, but you'reright, because I think sometimes
we can and then, but sometimesit's also not helpful because
then people will eliminate 15foods from their diet that was,
that were just fine.
And I think my take on the wayyou're describing it, which is
such a good point, is that anytracking like that or trying to
make meaning that we do in ourheads is we get stuck in this
(11:03):
place of trying to justify.
We want validation.
We want to prove to the doctorit's real because it happened.
And like you said, we need tohelp people understand.
It's real regardless of what'scausing it.
We're not saying it's not real.
And I think that, you know, iswhat gets the walls to come down
without what you're saying, allof this analysis and an
(11:23):
interpretation
destiny-davis-lpc-crc- (11:25):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And not, and also depending onyour personality type, the
tracking itself can be anxietyprovoking.
And then that can lead you tonot do it, even though you've
committed to doing it.
But now you can't figure out whyyou just can't stick with it.
It's likely because writing thedata causes some kind of
emotional reaction that you're,you don't want to feel.
(11:47):
And so you avoid it completely.
Or if you're a bit more type A,you might over track every
little thing.
And now you're in this kind ofanxiety, neurotic filled state
again, creates some of thesesymptoms that we're talking
about.
So it's a hard question.
I think to answer, how do we fixthis?
(12:09):
How do we become more aware?
Because it's not a tip or atrick.
It's a practice.
practicing mindfulness.
Mindfulness is not a way to getrid of your anxiety.
It's a way to pay attention toyour anxiety., Mindfulness got
a, marketing.
facelift and it's touted as thisthing to cure so many things.
And it's like, that's like onepart of all of this.
(12:32):
That's just one tool to help youbecome more aware of what you
need to change.
The mindfulness helps you figureout what you need to change.
But going back to making meaningtoo fast, I always explain to
clients too, we have to collectdata and we have to collect
enough data points before wemake the, conclusion.
(12:54):
That's what scientists do.
They don't, a good scientist isnot going to say I did this one
study and it showed me this.
No, we need studies withmultiple, multiple, multiple
data points before we candefinitively say anything.
So that's the same thing withour body.
I think so.
We mindfully collect the data,whether that's in your mind or
(13:17):
on paper.
the same time, you have to beusing relaxation skills to help
relax your nervous system.
If if the collection of it makesyou jump to meaning making and
then it causes anxiety.
Or even the opposite if you leanmore toward avoidance.
might actually be too loose inyour joints and in your muscles
(13:39):
and in your, in your breath andeverything, our mind and our
body are connected.
if you've ever been calleduptight, like as a personality,
you're probably very have tightmuscles.
you've ever been told you kindof, you don't care enough, or
you're too relaxed, you probablyhave very loose joints, muscles.
Then that's just a clinicalobservation.
(14:01):
So it's not about right orwrong.
It's about what's working foryou or what's not working for
you.
And only you can determine that.
And you can only determine thatafter enough time and space has
been given with the data.
It just can't be a quick, likethis thing equals that thing.
It's not going to producequality, conclusions.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (14:23):
Right.
And I think that the goal ofthat is to meet an emotional
need.
It comes from anxiety.
I need an answer right nowversus I can sit with this.
And like you mentioned before,uncertainty is so difficult for
so many people to stay in.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (14:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, you were talking earlier,you mentioned, um, you know,
with food allergies.
Yeah.
It's a little more, uh, it is alittle bit more immediate,
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (14:47):
Yeah.
Sometimes, not always, butsometimes it is.
When it is, it's reallyimportant that it's immediate,
but it's often not.
So that's even more confusing.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (14:55):
yeah, yeah, that's a good, that, that
makes sense then.
Right.
Because it, it's not clear cutand that's kind of, that's
That's why these podcasts exist.
That's why we're, we talk aboutthese things because there's
nuance and there's no clearanswer.
We're all living with, so muchdoubt, I think, and uncertainty
right now, too, just in ourenvironment.
Like, Finances and prices ofeverything rocketing, the
(15:19):
election coming up, there's somuch uncertainty.
And I think it's important toknow when we're talking about
symptoms in our body, everythingis connected.
So, you have an anxiety symptom,whether it's.
Because you're anxious aboutwhat work looks like tomorrow,
or the food you just ate, or theyou just took, and if it's going
(15:42):
to do X, Y, and Z, it's alsoconnected to our environment.
And how much, how uncertain andhow scared we feel inside is
going to also be affected by howuncertain our environment is.
Some of that we can control andsome of it we can't.
So that that's where it comesback into the therapy realm.
What do therapists do aboutthis?
We figure out what you cancontrol.
(16:04):
We help you figure out what youcan control versus what you
can't.
that's a part of a part of whatwe do.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (16:10):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think that's where, to tieit back to what you said about
mindfulness, there's There'sthis misconception.
We know there's all thisresearch and evidence that it's
effective, but themisunderstanding I think people
have is that it makes youmagically feel better.
Like I meditated, I don't feelcalm now.
And really that's to me, my, myunderstanding of the use of
(16:32):
mindfulness practices andmeditation is to get to a place
of acceptance of uncertainty oracceptance of the, whatever I'm
experiencing in my body rightnow.
And then sometimes that reducesthe Like you're saying, the
bracing or the resistance to itcan reduce some of the physical
symptoms or some of thecognitive, fighting back, but it
doesn't magically make you feelbetter.
(16:53):
And so then people like, eventhat doesn't work and they get
more frustrated.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (16:57):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
The, it doesn't work part isreally hard because how are you
defining what worked and whatdidn't?
No one can tell you when you'vegiven enough time to something
and it's time to move on and trysomething else and stop beating
a dead horse with what you'retrying to do versus you haven't
actually given it a long enoughof a, a try and not from a shame
(17:21):
based way, but just it was hardand you don't have the right
teaching around it.
You haven't enough handholdingduring it.
Adults require handholding justlike kids, but we often forget
that.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (17:31):
You make another good point that I
want to stick with, if it'sokay, how do we define.
It's working.
How do we define I'm gettingbetter or, or therapy is
effective or whatever it is,because that doesn't usually
mean everything's great now andeveryone feels wonderful.
So will you talk about that andhow you work with that idea of
what better means?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (17:51):
Yeah, I think it's really, that's a
really difficult thing toanswer.
Some therapists will say, youknow, we have assessments,
whether it's like the, the verysimple GAD, where we, we measure
your anxiety on like a 10question scale, and they'll
assess, you know, the, the,Session 1 session, 10 session,
20 and and we want to see thatyou're, you're getting better.
(18:13):
According to the scale.
I, I don't use assessments likethat and now that I have
toddlers, it's easier to see itlike this, but we want that
answer so desperately, am Idoing better?
is this working?
I kind of liken it to a toddlertantrum and I go through this
myself.
It's a toddler tantrum where wewant what we want and we want it
right now.
we need an adult in the room whocan hold our hand and say, I
(18:36):
know you want that.
I want that for you and I can'tgive it to you.
So what, what do you need nowthat we can't get that?
I can't give you a clear answer,but I can sit with you in this.
And usually by the end of that,of the, as that emotion or that,
that phase has passed.
the client can come to some kindof clarity around, like, I still
(18:59):
don't have an answer if I'mdoing better or not, but I do
feel better in this way, or thislittle thing has changed.
And I don't think I could havedone that without the help of my
therapist.
That's how I also determinewhether therapy is working for
me as a client well.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2024 (19:17):
I love the metaphor and I agree
with you.
You're right.
Different clients need differentthings.
Sometimes they're found to bevery clinical and detached And
some people they're verymeasurable and tangible.
And, it depends on each person.
they have their place, but, Ilove your metaphor and it's,
it's getting my wheels turning.
When you're talking abouttoddlers and tantrums, and we
all have that reaction withinus, sometimes you're getting my
(19:38):
mind going about.
Attachment.
We were talking before aboutattachment in terms of clinging
to answers, but I don't want tolose my listeners.
My therapist brain is going toattachment as in are we securely
attached?
Most people are generallyfamiliar with am I anxiously
attached and how that, you know,ties into the nervous system.
The toddler and the tantrum isin the fight or flight mode.
(20:00):
And I know you do a lot of workutilizing that attachment
Perspective in terms of fight orflight, which I talked to my
audience a lot about, can youtell us what we need to know
about how to utilize that?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (20:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think the like very simplifiedversion of how I describe
attachment styles is like,typically, if you are the type
of person that fearfully movestoward a problem, you are likely
more anxiously attached.
And if you fearfully move awayfrom problems, you're more
avoidantly attached.
(20:35):
attached is when you know how toEbb and flow move toward in a
way as appropriate, and there'snot a lot of anxiety field
filled with it.
It's more just a feeling ofsureness of calmness.
hard struggles.
And so fight or flight, fight ismoving toward that, toward a
problem.
(20:56):
Flight is moving away.
And we all do this too.
Even if you're anxiouslyattached, you might have some
avoidant tendencies.
If you're avoidantly attached,you might have some, anxious.
And then of course there's alsodisorganized, which is, I think
a whole different level of this.
the way that we react to ourbodies, whether it's a chronic
illness, symptom, food, allergy,whatever it is is line with our
(21:19):
attachment styles.
if you tend to be more, tightand bracing more of that
fighting stance, you movetoward, you're more anxiously
attached.
You're going to want to know allthe information.
You're going to get pissed offwhen no one cares to ask about
X, Y, and Z, and how dare they.
Not think about my kid in thissituation.
Whereas a more avoidant a stylebe, we're just, we're not going
(21:40):
to go there.
And I actually don't want anyoneto ask.
So we're just not going to go dothat., That's how I think it can
look.
and then towards your body too.
Well, am I going to allow myselfto feel this thing, this
symptom, and you might feel it alot, a lot, like you can't get
it out of your brain, moreanxiously or you might be
almost.
You don't feel it at all untilit's brought to your attention.
(22:04):
And that is a little bit moreavoidantly attached to your
symptoms.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (22:09):
That's so helpful.
I think that you did such a goodjob of describing what it would
look like because for people whoyou don't do what we do and have
the conversations we do everyday.
Even if they're familiar withattachment, they think that's
like, Oh, that's how I feelabout my parents.
This is how I behave inrelationships.
And you phrased it so well.
It's how do I respond to anyconflict or any problem in my
(22:29):
life?
That's why this is so,foundational for us in
understanding our styles,because it's how we approach
life.
It's not just our relationshipsto mom and dad.
We're not, you know, limited to,to that.
responding to them in that way.
It plays out everywhere.
So how do people gain a betterunderstanding?
(22:50):
What's my, what's my pattern?
And as you said, everyone canchange.
It doesn't mean you do this ahundred percent of the time, but
getting a better idea and thenobviously developing a
healthier, a more balancedapproach or a more helpful
approach.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (23:04):
Yeah, we need role models.
This is one of those thingswhere what's in my control and
what's not, I'm lucky enoughthat my husband pretty securely.
And so he was a very good modelfor me and I've known him for
now, you know, 15 years Dailyexposure to a secure nervous
system.
(23:25):
That to me is luck that was outof my control.
The part that was in my controlwas to stay in the relationship
and not leave it, deciding toobserve and, and when shame
popped up around my own anxiousattachment style, I feel fine
disclosing that because we allare, we all have our styles.
They're not right or wrong.
Right.
But when the fear and theanxiety popped up, it was my
(23:48):
decision.
Okay.
Decision, but also through I hadtools.
I had a practice aroundmindfulness.
I had all these tools at mydisposal to then make the choice
to again, stay in thisrelationship, to observe and not
fight.
I mean, trust me.
I fight, I fight sometimes, butit's not, but, uh, it is.
(24:09):
It is about, again, so there'sjust, there's parts you can
control and parts you can't.
If you don't happen to have asecure partner or somebody who's
around you a lot, we can look tobooks, characters in books, TV
shows, and try to do some interparenting work imagining that TV
character as our parent.
What would that be like to be onthe receiving end of that?
(24:32):
That kind of work can be hardbecause it often does bring up
so much grief if you didn't havethat.
But to start to understand howto securely attached to your
body is Understanding first towhere, where you land.
Are you more anxious?
Are you more avoidant?
Are you very disorganized?
Meaning there's a lot of bothand it goes back and forth.
Like anxious, anxious, anxious,avoid it, avoid it, avoid it.
(24:53):
And you actually like never knowwhere what's going to come next.
we want to get really in touchwith that first.
good acronym you can remember isThis is from Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy, but it'sACE, A C E.
Acknowledge.
Acknowledge what is therewithout changing it.
So Acknowledge or Acceptance canstand for A.
And then C is coming back intoyour body.
(25:14):
And it's still kind of inAcknowledging because you're
noticing what's there ratherthan trying to change it.
But you can also use your breathto get grounded, to recognize
you're in the present moment,realize what is rather than what
was or what will be.
a is acknowledged.
C is coming back into my bodyand then E is engaging with the
(25:35):
world or my values.
So in this example of how do Isecurely attach to my body soon
as something pops up, Iacknowledge what's happening.
I acknowledge the sensation.
I acknowledge the thoughts I'mhaving in this in order to
acknowledge and do that part ofthe acronym, you're pausing and
pausing is a really powerfulthing.
(25:56):
Mindfulness tool as well.
So this is very connected.
You have to pause in order tolabel the, the two end up being,
you're using two skills in one,really.
So you're pausing to acknowledgewhat's happening, thoughts,
feelings, sensations, what'sactually happening.
Maybe there's.
in the doctor's office.
Maybe you're, you just ate afood that is scary.
(26:17):
You don't know now, like ifsomething's gonna happen once we
acknowledge that, then we cancome back into our body.
Notice again, notice what'sthere.
take a deep breath.
notice your feet on the ground.
sometimes just pushing yourhands into each other or
squeezing your arms or yourlegs, anything that helps you
get back into your body.
(26:37):
And then engaging with yourvalues is if you're like talking
about food allergies and youhave to like go to go somewhere,
take your epinephrine or go tothe hospital, that's one thing.
if nothing dangerous ishappening, but there's a lot of
fear happening.
So we use the A and the C tohelp us get to engaging back
with the environment that we'rein, in a grounded way so that we
(26:59):
can live the life we want tolive.
So
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (27:03):
so helpful because, yes, for those
with food allergies, that's whatit comes down to.
I don't even want to go to thisbirthday party because they
didn't ask me about if the cakeis safe and my kid's going to be
upset because, and then the wayyou're describing it, we can
have that time to pause and toacknowledge what we're feeling,
have that time to come back andthen ground into what's my value
(27:23):
about this?
What do I want to show my child?
Or if it's an adult with foodallergies, how do I want my
life?
to be and look.
And do I want to choose out ofthat, that fear?
Or, you know, do I want toengage with both the world, the
relationships I have, the peopleI trust, and with my values and
the life I want to create?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (27:42):
yeah, exactly.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (27:44):
You mentioned, Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy, which issuch a great tool.
Can you tell everybody a littlebit more about that beyond the
tool you just described?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (27:52):
Yeah, I don't use it from a purely
behavioral lens, but it is abehavioral therapy.
but the behavior that we'retrying, trying to help you
engage in is the one that's mostimportant and meaningful to you.
It's not about shaming you intobehaving a certain way.
It's
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (28:07):
Right,
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she- (28:08):
out what's important to you using
tools such as the one I justmentioned to help you overcome
obstacles and obstacles can beboth physical or mental, fear,
anxiety.
If you don't want to feel thosethings, you will often not
engage in the thing inevitablywill provoke that, but it's also
probably a really meaningfulthing in your life.
(28:30):
If you have anxiety around thebirthday party, but now your kid
all his classmates always go toall the birthday parties and he
can't, we want to be able toengage in that if being social
is a value of yours, which Ithink for like 99 percent of us,
it is, and to make matters morecomplicated when it's you and
now a kid, you have to take intoconsideration your kid's values
(28:52):
too, which they can't verbalizeyet.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (28:56):
right.
And and your kids nervous systemback to co regulation.
And whereas my body, you know,acknowledge what's going on in
my body right now, but then howclosely tied that is to your
child's body.
And then how they'reexperiencing a situation or a
possibility or scenario.
It gets complicated.
I always trace everything backto our nervous systems.
And it's, it's so powerful whenyou were talking about models of
(29:19):
like, attachment.
I always smile and think ofbluey and that's why the show
bluey is such a huge hit becauseall of us parents needed that
model of what does a secureparent look like and we can
embody it.
We can imagine receiving it andit demonstrates the way you feel
when you watch that.
And my kids almost kind ofmissed it.
(29:40):
But like we all still like iteven though they're older
because it feels so good.
It changes what's going on inyour nervous system.
It's amazing.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (29:48):
yeah, that's a really good example.
Yes.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (29:51):
You mentioned grief, so obviously
that's a big part of several,perspectives in the ways that
we've been talking about thisgrief touches on all of those
angles.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (30:01):
Yeah.
This is all, I mean, we couldprobably do a whole podcast
episode on grief.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (30:06):
We could do a whole podcast on each
one of the things we've talkedabout so far.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she (30:10):
Yes.
Yes.
Basically grief is, is loss.
And so if you're living a lifethat you didn't expect to live,
whether it's because of a foodallergy or chronic pain, chronic
illness took something from you,like your ability to engage with
the world easily, there's griefand there's loss in that
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (30:31):
Yeah.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (30:31):
thing that's complicated.
And I think is.
It doesn't always have to bethat way.
And that's really what we'retalking about.
Like, we can engage in the worldalmost Almost no matter what, my
dad is blind, but he paints, he,there's someone who helps him
with the colors and then he useshis hands to paint on the
canvas.
And so are usually ways aroundsome of these things, the point
(30:53):
I'm making is like grief isanything that you no longer have
that you still want because ifyou lose something and you
didn't care about it, there's nogrief.
It's just like, oh, thank you.
I didn't want that in my life.
It's gone.
So if you still want it and it'snot there, there's grief and
that is reasonable expected.
(31:15):
And when we are grieving, whatwe need is support.
We need someone who can look atus and say, that is really hard.
And I'm, I'm here with youthrough it.
Not here's how you can thinkdifferently and be better.
You know, I did mention the ofmy dad painting, but.
That took 15 years after he losthis eyesight before that started
(31:36):
happening.
That was not like a, don't be,don't be scared.
Don't be sad.
You're blind now.
You can still paint.
Like that would just beterrible.
You know, we don't, that's notwhat we're talking about here.
You have to go through sadness,anger, all of the things before
you can get to a place whereyou're like, I want to re engage
now from a place of I can dorather than what I've lost.
(32:00):
It's a little bit morecomplicated when you have kids
because like that grievingprocess, on how long it is and
how severe it is, can take awayfrom your kid's life.
Um, and so when that'shappening, want all the support
we can get.
We want somebody else who'strusted, who can take them to
the birthday party andunderstands their allergies
while I'm grieving the loss ofwhatever it is I'm grieving.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (32:22):
That's such a good point.
You need to know what it isyou're grieving.
Are you grieving that I can't goto the birthday party?
Are you grieving, now my child'slife might not ever look like
this?
You have to know what it isbefore you can move through it
and heal in the way you'redescribing, right?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc- (32:37):
Exactly.
So sometimes you need that time.
And the way that we reflect onthings is different, again,
based on our personality types,some people need to be alone in
a room journaling.
Some people need to be out withother people, verbally
processing.
I think that's one of thehardest things for a lot of my
clients, the, the desire to talkabout their chronic pain and
(32:59):
chronic illness, but no onewants to hear it.
They just hear it as you'recomplaining all the time.
some of us are verbalprocessors.
And in order to actually movethrough this, we need to talk
about it a lot.
And so it's, it can be hard tofind someone who's willing to
sit in that with us and, and noteventually be like, I'm tired of
hearing you complain.
It's like, I'm not, I'm not,yes, it's a complaint.
(33:19):
And also this is how I getthrough to the other side.
So it's hard, it's hard, likeknowing what you, what you need
and what you want.
And then also finding it
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22- (33:28):
Yeah, you not only have to know what
you're grieving But then howdoes my body and my mind want to
work through this and what do Ineed in order?
To do that.
What's the context?
What do you say to people?
Struggling with what you're youknow Describing because I think
in the food allergy world a lotof us just we just talk to other
moms on the phone Social mediagroups who understand what we're
going through.
And then I think there's less ofa like, oh, you're getting sick
(33:50):
of me talking about this, but weneed that in real life, I think,
too.
And it's hard to find.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (33:55):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, my clients too, samething.
There's a lot of Facebook groupsfor like all the different
chronic illnesses.
There's some that are moregeneral chronic illness groups,
and those are helpful places.
To at least be validated in whatyou're experiencing.
The other thing too, is likewhen it comes to complaining,
quote, complaining, it's like,sometimes you actually, it does
like hurt you to, to keep goingdown that path.
(34:17):
It kind of feels spirally.
And so it just depends on thesituation, but I do work with
clients around, do we help youBalance what you're talking
about, but for you, not becauseyou're scared of not being liked
or not being wanted.
That's never a good motivator.
It might motivate you, but thenyou can't connect genuinely with
people because you're resentingthem while you're suppressing
(34:39):
what think you need to do to getliked.
So it's it's really it's youneed so much trial and error.
We want to like dip our toesinto the conversation and see
how, how far can I go with thiswhile it's still safe.
And when I get that cue fromsomeone else that it's too much,
one, I have to not take thatpersonally.
Yes.
(34:59):
It's all that's on my mindbecause it's in my life, but
what about their life?
Am I asking about their life?
Do you, what, what do I knowabout them?
When we're talking about formingrelationships, like what do they
want to talk about?
And maybe I've, I've gone toofar in this conversation, just
focused on me, or maybe Ihaven't, I haven't talked about
(35:19):
me enough.
And now they feel uncomfortablecontinuing to talk about
themselves because I'm notsharing vulnerably either.
So go both ways.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (35:29):
And that's so important because I
think, yeah, when we hold back,we don't realize we're just
thinking, I don't want to burdenor annoy someone, but we don't
realize that we might be sendingthe message of, I, you know, I'm
uncomfortable accepting helpfrom you and therefore don't
reach out to me for help either.
It kind of shuts down thecommunication.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-he (35:46):
I think it goes right back to how,
we engage with everything basedon our attachment styles, how
you're figuring out how to havethese conversations with people
is also going to like mirrorwhat your attachment style is.
And we have to be willing to.
Not have so much like, okay, togo into it and I'm going to say
this thing.
And I'm, if I say it this rightway, they will understand.
(36:09):
They might not.
And then you're left feelingbroken.
Like either I'm so terrible.
No one understands me or theworld is horrible because
they're not willing to listen.
And it just, it takes so manyconversations to build
relationship.
have to be willing to engage inthat relationship over and over
(36:31):
and over again.
Even if the result of oneconversation is not what we want
it to be.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (36:38):
Right.
Right.
And I think then back to whatyou described about checking in
with the nervous system.
We don't want to have oneconversation where we feel like,
Unheard and then have ournervous system kick in.
We're in fight or flight.
And then we're responding fromthat place versus what's like
you said, what's my value?
I want to develop a deeperrelationship with this person in
(36:58):
person and have mutualunderstanding that doesn't come
from a place of fight or flightreaction to an individual
conversation.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc- (37:07):
Exactly.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2024 (37:09):
I think that that touches to on,
you know, your perspective forpeople with all kinds of chronic
illness and chronic medicalstuff.
I think it's good to mention andgood to acknowledge.
We feel alone in our littlebubble.
Probably many people withspecific things do as well, but
there's so much overlap that wecan share with people managing
(37:29):
other things in terms of.
relating and understanding orproviding support that's similar
that's needed.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (37:37):
Yeah, exactly.
one of the, one of the thingsI've, I've tried to start groups
so many times.
If you're on my email list, youwill know this because I will, I
will put out emails to start agroup and then I'll give updates
and then it's like, Oh, sorry.
Group's not happening.
Cause there wasn't enough peopleto actually say yes and commit
to it.
(37:58):
Um, and that, and the feedback Ioften hear when people say no is
they're not going to understand.
Like the other people in thegroup are not going to
understand and especially Idon't do specific diagnoses in
my groups, it's, it's a, um,whatever chronic illness you
have, um, because there's somuch overlap in it.
(38:18):
I don't see a lot of differenceand, um, thinks that their case
is, is, is, um, Is too differentfor anyone else to understand.
And I think that comes from,again, how we were raised.
Uh, if you, if you were neverunderstood by your parents or
your, your, your school is a bigpart of this.
If you had teachers whoconstantly kind of the culture
in the school was very likeinvalidating, or it just wasn't
(38:40):
what you needed, then you growup to learn that no one, no one
could possibly understand you.
So yeah, it's very layered.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-2 (38:49):
Another layer of that that I want to
touch on is, in our world,probably in a lot of the people
that you work with too, often ifwe're talking about a child and
the child's condition or illnessor medical situation, many of
the people I work with arefeeling that they're carrying
everything alone in addition to,reaching out and building these
relationships and socialnetworks and trust.
(39:11):
can you talk about, that conceptof like, you have to put your
own oxygen mask on first, butthat is useless advice when
someone doesn't know where tostart.
And when the nervous system isactivated by anything we try to
do that we feel like compromisesour child's safety or security,
or, you know, takes time awayfrom them.
what does that actually looklike in terms of taking care of
(39:32):
yourself?
As a, as a caregiver of someone.
It's
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (39:36):
Yeah, that's a good question and the
reason I pause is because it isso it's individualized and it is
based on what your nervoussystem likes and doesn't like.
But if you don't know, then thatthat in and of itself is a
journey and a process.
I think it brings us back to theconcept of doubt and
uncertainty.
When you're trying to figure outwhat it is, I like what it is.
(39:59):
I don't like what it is.
I need emotionally.
What is my oxygen mask?
It's a lot of being willing totry different things for me.
Like, seriously, it's like, saltbaths four times a week.
I have chronic pain.
Notice a difference when I gomore than like two or three days
(40:19):
without a bath.
15 years ago, it was like sit ina bath for like 20 minutes.
My mind couldn't.
The idea of being alone with mythoughts for 20 minutes was
terrifying.
through all this work was like,I realized that was the problem.
I don't, it's not that I don'thave the time for a 20 minute
bath.
It's that I am terrified to bealone with my thoughts for 20
minutes.
(40:41):
That's what mindfulness does foryou.
It brings light to this.
Once you realize that, now youcan say, okay.
But I know that Epsom salt seemsto be really good for muscles,
aches and soreness and whatnot,and I want to try it, and I want
to do this thing.
So I have to be willing to sitwith myself for 20 minutes, even
though I'm going to be scared.
(41:02):
So if you keep trying newthings, but you expect it not to
be hard, setting yourself up forfailure.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (41:10):
so important to emphasize it
doesn't magically work the firsttime.
Anything new that you try toinstitute your body is going to,
it's going to feel different anduncomfortable.
Not, Oh, that was exactly what Ineeded.
I'm better now.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she (41:23):
yes.
Yeah.
Rene Brown calls it the FFT thefricking time as it's.
So it's so every first timecomes with obstacles, fears,
anxieties, hardships, uh, andso, yeah, can't really judge
almost anything around the firsttime.
(41:45):
Now you can start to judgesomething based on patterns of
behavior.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2 (41:49):
like everything else you're talking
about, it's a process, not a onetime deal.
It's a, it's a multiple stepprocess of like, okay, and now
I'm going to try this one, ormaybe it's a restaurant, a new
restaurant you're afraid of.
And each time you do that,tuning in with your body's
responses versus.
FFT.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (42:08):
yeah, exactly.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (42:09):
So what is your, if you haven't
already shared it, what's yourgo to, what's your like golden
nugget that you love to giveyour clients?
Anyone managing somethingchronic like this and how, how
difficult it can be.
What's a surefire, everybodyneeds to know this.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-he (42:25):
I do think it's, what we've really
been talking about aroundmindfulness, not being a cure,
but a tool to help you becomemore aware.
and then the ACE acronym issomething I share with many,
many clients.
just remembering that it's apractice and not, a thing that's
going to automatically give youinsight either the insight comes
(42:46):
through trial and error throughrepetition.
Meanwhile, also knowing whatyour foundation is that you can
keep coming back to over andover and over again.
Again, whether that's like forme, baths are a part of that.
Knowing that, I worked myselfinto eating three meals a day.
That was really hard for me inthe past.
(43:07):
I know I get more anxious.
Sometimes I get jittery.
Okay.
As if I had too much coffee, butit's because I've gone too long
without eating.
I know that only through so manyyears of like mindful awareness
around what's happening withoutjumping to the meaning making.
That's I think the, the takeawayhere.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (43:28):
That's so helpful.
Thank you.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (43:30):
Yeah,
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-202 (43:31):
Is there anything that you had
thoughts about or wanted tomention that you think would be
helpful for, for my crew here onthis show?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-h (43:38):
I, talk about chronic illness.
If you have other intersectingstuff on my podcast, the chronic
illness therapist, I now have adirectory up for therapists who.
Specializing chronic illness.
So that you can find someone inyour state who understands what
you're going through.
On one hand, you don't needsomeone who knows exactly your
(43:58):
illness.
But on the other hand, it ishelpful to in a lot of ways when
it comes to like knowledge andresources it is helpful to have
somebody who has livedexperience with the specific
condition that you're dealingwith, whether that's food
allergy or PCOS or Lyme diseaseor whatever it is.
and if you can't find someone inyour state with your exact
cause, It is also just helpfulto have someone who understands
(44:22):
the grief and on all of theoverarching things that come
along with this through achronic illness perspective,
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-20 (44:28):
And you have an email sign up.
Your groups might be helpful toa lot of people listening
because kids with food allergiesand adults with food allergies
are prone to other, diagnosesmore so than the average person.
And then within our families,most of us have more things
going on than, than the average.
So.
How do we people sign up foryour email list?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--sh (44:49):
Yeah.
If you go to my website, there'semail sign up there and I'll,
I'll give you a link as well foryour show notes.
And I do a workshop at least onea month, sometimes two around
different, emotional, thingsthat we might like one, one was
like on ADHD and chronic pain.
one was on how to not feel likea burden, to your friends and
family.
So those are some past examplesand, Yeah, I do those every
(45:11):
month that you can sign up forthat on my, on my, my website is
the chronic illness therapist.
com.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22 (45:17):
Great.
And we will put everything inthe notes so people can find it.
And the last question I like toask everybody is just what,
what's one great thing aboutmanaging a chronic illness?
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--she-he (45:29):
I just think it teaches you so
much about yourself.
If you let it, if you use it asa mirror, you learn more about
yourself.
And if that's important to you,then, then that's a great thing.
squadcaster-1gff_2_08-22-2 (45:40):
Good point.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show, Destiny.
destiny-davis-lpc-crc--s (45:44):
Thanks so much.
Here are three steps you cantake today to take some action
on what you've learned intoday's conversation.
Number one, listen to Destiny'sgreat podcast.
It's easy to find the chronicillness therapist podcast.
I'll put the links in the shownotes and number two, I'll also
put a link to her website andthey show notes also very easy
(46:06):
to find the chronic illnesstherapist.com.
Number three during ourconversation, destiny dropped
some hints about one of my veryfavorite people working in this
field.
Brenae brown.
Trust me, if you want tounderstand your fears, this is
the woman to teach you.
Bernays website is Bernaybrown.com, B R E N E B R O w
(46:29):
n.com links in the notes.
She has podcasts.
She has lots of books.
She has resources on herwebsite.
I highly recommend for thelisteners on this show.
If you haven't read anything byher, starting with the book, the
Atlas of the heart.
That is kind of like anencyclopedia of your emotions
discussed in a way that youprobably never heard anyone talk
(46:49):
about them before.
Super useful tools along witheverything that destiny has
taught us today about managingour emotions and how we cope
with stressors in our lives.
the content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only, andis not a substitute for
professional medical or mentalhealth advice, diagnosis, or
treatment.
(47:10):
If you have any questions aboutyour own medical experience or
mental health needs, pleaseconsult a professional.
I'm Dr.
Amanda White house.
Thanks for joining me.
And until we chat again,remember don't feed the fear.
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