Creating a Healthy Food Foundation with Children's Dietitian Lucy Upton

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In this episode, host Dr. Whitehouse welcomes dietitian-author Lucy Upton @childrensdietitian to explore developing healthy relationships with food. Topics discussed include:

• Nervous system–informed eating strategies
• Safe and science-backed early allergen introduction
• The gut-brain-axis, vagus nerve, and mental health connection 
• Medicalization of food and how to combat it
• Lucy's "3 Fs" for encouraging balanced eating habits in children

Whether you're already navigating food allergies, trying to prevent them for your little ones, or simply aim to feed your family with more calm and confidence, this encouraging conversation offers science-based guidance and practical tools.

---
 Where to find Lucy:
 On Instagram and TikTok @childrensdietitian
 Experts on infant & child feeding & nutrition | The Children’s Dietitian
The Ultimate Guide to Children's Nutrition a book by Lucy Upton - Bookshop.org US

Special thanks to Kyle Dine for permission to use his song The Doghouse for the podcast theme!
www.kyledine.com

Find Dr. Whitehouse:
-thefoodallergypsychologist.com
-Instagram: @thefoodallergypsychologist
-Facebook: Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, Food Allergy Anxiety Psychologist
[e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Lucy Upton, MNutr (00:00):
It's such a fine balance, isn't it?

(00:01):
There's stuff you do wantparents to know and be informed
about, I'm never gonna sit hereas a dietician and judge the
choices parents make for theirchildren.
But I think it is really, reallyimportant that parents are, able
to make an informed choice andinformed without bias, informed
without, the packaging, thepeople who want to sell you
their supplements, you know,without the bias because all of
that feeds into it and peopledon't realize it's that fine

(00:22):
line of going, here's theinformation.
But also, you know, that doesn'tmean that's what you need to do
all of the time.
Let's remember food is alsoabout, joy and connection

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (00:32):
Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear
podcast, where we dive into thecomplex world of food allergy
anxiety.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amanda Whitehouse, food allergyanxiety psychologist and food
allergy mom.
Whether you're dealing withallergies yourself or supporting
someone who is, join us for anempathetic and informative
journey toward food allergy calmand confidence..

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (00:54):
Welcome back to our summer season of
Don't Feed the Fear, where weare starting some conversations
about choices, the choices thatwe make, the choices that we
lose, and the choices that wesometimes have to intentionally
reclaim when we're managing foodallergies.
I wanted to introduce you totoday's guest early in the
season because I think shebrings a lot to the table that

(01:14):
can help us rewrite and reframesome difficult perspectives and
experiences that we have aroundfood.
I'm so honored to have chattedwith Lucy Upton, whose approach
is a beautiful reminder thateven within the limits of
dietary restrictions, we stillhave plenty of choice.
Much of it not even having to dowith what the food we're putting
in our mouths is.

(01:34):
Her warm, balanced philosophyshows that managing allergies
doesn't have to feel likedeprivation or fear, and we
don't have to have a negativerelationship with food.
We can find a path towardnourishment, connection, and
joy.
Lucy Is a leading pediatricdietician and nutritionist in
the UK with a huge social mediafollowing and an amazing new

(01:55):
book that just came out, if youalready follow her, you know how
well informed and accessible andpractical her work is.
Lucy's very grounded in theexperiences that we are actually
having related to food,nutrition, allergies, eating
difficulties, growth concerns,and that shows in the way that
she communicates with us.
That's why I was so excited forher book and it did not

(02:16):
disappoint.
Thank you so much for being hereto join me.
Lucy, I just finished your bookthis weekend.
I'm so impressed.
I want to tell everybody all thewonderful things about it, but I
would love to let you start, byintroducing yourself to
everybody and telling us aboutthis great new book that's out

Lucy Upton, MNutr (02:30):
Hello everyone, and so lovely to speak
to you honestly.
Such a pleasure.
So my name's Lucy.
Um, I'm a children's dietician.
I've always been a child'sdietician.
I've been working over 15 yearsnow in clinical practice.
Um, I have, I suppose by what wewould consider in the UK a
fairly typical start in that I,um, spent a long time working
for our national health service.
So I did over 10 years for ourNational Health Service, um,

(02:52):
always working with children ina range of different settings.
I did a lot of food allergy,which is one of the reasons I'm
here today.
Um, but actually did a lot of,of wide range of clinical
nutrition in some of our biggestchildren's hospitals in the uk.
So kind of have a very sort ofthat hands-on acute experience
and worked with lots offamilies, but alongside that
have always, um, I suppose likehad.
For want of a better term, hadmy finger in other pies in terms

(03:15):
of recognizing that reachinglots of parents, you know, has a
different method these days.
So, um, I think it was lockdownactually, um, where I started an
Instagram page because Ithought, oh my God, where are
parents gonna get all of theirinformation from now?
They can't access anybody.
So that was kind of the birth ofthe children's dietician really,
and just wanting to getevidence-based information out

(03:35):
there for parents.
Um, in a particularly noisyenvironment.
I was finding parents with therise in social media were
getting more confused, moreconflicted.
Um, and I suppose also born outof the fact that, particularly
here in the uk, because of theway our healthcare system works,
had a lot of very vulnerableparents.
So children with, you know,suspected allergies, babies with

(03:55):
feeding difficulties, you know,really stressful feeding
experiences on very long waitinglists to be seen by our.
Um, health service and I, youknow, essentially how it works
in the UK is if you are going togo sort of privately in the uk,
you, some people will haveinsurance often through work,
um, but most people don't.
And so most people, you know,have to either pay for that
themselves or they have to wait.

(04:16):
And, you know, I'll never forgeta mum messaging me once being
like, oh, I've just had a, youknow, really, really complex
allergy baby.
And I've just had the letterthrough the, the wait's 94 weeks
and I was even my header.
I was like, that's like, hold ona minute.
That's like nearly two years.
Which is just wild, isn't it?
So yeah, so, so was born thechildren's dietician.
And so I do sort of work online.
I do my own clinics, I work atspecialist feeding clinics, I

(04:39):
consult with brands in foodindustry.
I, I'm very lucky, I get toreally diversify kind of what
the role of a dietician does.
And yes, a couple of years ago,was it a year ago, about a, a
year and a ago, I was approachedby a publisher here in the UK to
write a book, um, which kind ofset the wheels in motion for,
um.
My book, the Ultimate Guide toChildren's Nutrition, which I
wanted to do something a littlebit different.

(05:00):
I very much realized for parentsthat there's some brilliant
books out there, some reallywonderful books about key
timeframes with, feeding, likethere's lots of books about
weaning and introducing solids.
And there's certain books aroundkind of managing specific
scenarios We have an abundancehere.
I'm sure it's the same overthere of like recipe books.
And I, you know, it was like Icould do this, but actually what
I wanted was a bit of a, um.

(05:22):
I suppose a bit of a handbookfor those first five years, not
only because we recognize that'sprobably one of the most
formative times for sort ofestablishing children's kind of
health and relationship withfood.
Um, but also'cause especially,you know, I've since become a
mum, everything's changes soquickly, doesn't it?
You are like, you just about gotto grips with milk feeding and
they're like, oh, hello, nowit's time to introduce solids.
And you're sort of getting yourhead around solids and you

(05:43):
finally got a little one whomight be eating and exploring
food and then bam, the toddleris, and you're like, whoa.
So I wanted something that came,that came with, that answered
all the questions that was verymuch driven by my community.
Actually.
I, um, you'll have seen at theback of every section there's a
common q and a, and that's fromyears, five years, nearly six I
think, of doing every Sundaypretty much.

(06:05):
Um, doing a q and a onInstagram, I just got all of
those amalgamated, the thingspeople ask me time and time
again and I was like, if oneparents asked, in fact if, you
know, 25, 30, a hundred parentshave asked, then many more want
the answer to this.
So I threw it all in a book.
So very long, convoluted.
Hello?

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (06:22):
Thank you.
And I didn't wanna try to sum itup i've been struggling to try
to find, to put into words howyour book is different from
everything that's out there.
So thank you for doing that forme.
I

Lucy Upton, MNutr (06:31):
got well versed in this now.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (06:33):
There's so much of that that I wanna
pull out, but you said somethingthat I think is so important
about that, how things change soquickly and it's the half-life
of medical information,especially with allergies, just
shrinking and shrinking and, andthen that's how mothering is.
As soon as you finally settleinto a phase, like, oh, I've got
this, and now I know the routineYeah, things change again.

(06:54):
So with food on top of that,it's so difficult to manage.
I'm so sad for myself, but Ididn't have this when I was
going through it becausemessages along the same lines
actually.
Yes.
And I want everyone to knowthat, this is a book for
everybody that will leave youprepared whether allergies or
not are in your future when youneed the information, which is
before it happens, not afteryour child has had a reaction

(07:16):
and

Lucy Upton, MNutr (07:16):
you're panicking that that was what I
wanted.
I wanted something preemptive, Iwanted, you know, I get, so for
example, the toddler years andeating habits in the toddler
years is a really, um, commonarea of concern for lots of my
parents.
Like lots of parents in fact.
And I was like, I just want abook that's gonna like set out
what's going on for your child'sdevelopment.
Like, why are these thingshappening?
Because the Y always helps,doesn't it?

(07:37):
It takes away from that.
God, there must be somethingwrong.
I must be doing something wrongto.
Oh, right.
I almost can anticipate, and ifI an, if I know that this is
gonna happen, I'm not gonna jumpto fix, which is so often our
instincts as a parent, isn't it?
Like, oh my god.
This is different.
This is worrying, is thisnormal?
Oh my gosh, I must fix it.
And actually, um, therefore inthe hope that actually it just

(07:59):
gives lots of parents peace ofmind, it gets somewhere to turn
to.
I sort of said at the end, Ihope it's well thumbed and
passed on.
And, you know, that it's, it'sbeen there in those, not just
for the preemptive, but also forthose tricky moments.
And it that comes to allergiestoo.
You know, I made sure I coveredlots in there about introducing
allergens to babies and why wewould do it, but also
pragmatically, not just why wedo it, but like, here's some

(08:20):
ideas of how to do it.
Here's some foods you can keepin.
This is what you might do.
Like very pragmatically, sort ofstep by step and you know, what
do reactions look like andclearing up.
Also, I think quite a lot ofthat misinformation that's
surrounds food allergies inthose early years, which, you
know, after working in this areafor a very long time, I
sometimes smile.
I'm like, is this, am I, I'mstill hearing the same thing I

(08:41):
was hearing 15 years ago.
It takes, it takes in the sameway, like you were talking about
the half-life of informationtakes a long time for some
things to just disappear,doesn't it?
Yes.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (08:51):
Yes, unfortunately.
So for example, one of the mostimportant things that, that you
talk about in your book that wasnot information that was
available to me is how importantit is in reducing, food
allergies, is the earlyintroduction of foods and that
information is out there, buthow to do this and the way you
set up your book and the supportyou give around it, removing the

(09:12):
judgment and the should and allof the, the fear that we feel
around it, right?
Because it becomes, it becomes ascary thing.
Oh my gosh, if I don't give mychild peanut butter by this many
months, they're going to developan allergy.
That's what I think people hear.
Yeah.
And that's why I think itdoesn't disseminate the way that
we want it to or be incorporatedthe way that it ought to be.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (09:32):
No, and I, yeah, and I still think there
is, I still think there is fear.
You know, I still think evenwith all that information, and I
kind of like these, these, thesedifferent groups of parents,
it's a sort of.
Parents who sort of stillhaven't got access to that
information because they've beenmisinformed by even other health
professionals who've worked along time.
And this stuff takes a long timeto trickle down.
You know, I remember being satin a lecture here in the UK when

(09:53):
some of the big pinnacle studiesthat came out about allergy
prevention were first beingdiscussed, like two health
professionals.
And everyone's mind, like thesilence in the room.
Like, and one of the firstquestions from a pediatrician
was, how are we gonna, how arewe getting this to public health
level and how are we doing itquickly?
And the reality is, is thatwe're 12 years on, you know, and

(10:13):
we're like still feeding thisinformation, so some people are
still going to get it after theyneed it, or you know, and that
isn't anyone's faultnecessarily, but it is important
what, you know, as to why it'sreally important to get kind of
widespread, you know,information out there that's
accessible to families and asyou say, supportive, not
judgmental.

(10:34):
Um, and I think also, you know.
Challenging some of those fears,you know, if we're talking
specifically about kind ofintroducing food allergens
during weaning, which by theway, it is totally normal to be
worried about.
I was worried about it and I'vebeen there, done it, got the
t-shirt in terms of giving theadvice.
I could do it probably in mysleep, you know, but I was still
like, I think I'll just call mysister and see if she wants to

(10:55):
come around today.
You know, because my husband wasaway.
I think, you know, and eventhough my logical brain, my
adult logical brain, likeprefrontal cortex, they aren't
fully online, can say risk ofanaphylaxis.
Very low.
Like very low.
And that's what most people areworried about, right?
A really big reaction firsttime.
And you know, and also I wouldknow what to do if she was

(11:17):
having a reaction.
And I'm also very confident withknowing what I'm looking for and
how to like set, set about myday.
My emotional brain still tookover, right?
It worked so much faster, somuch faster, not necessarily
logical at all.
And it was like, oh my God, ohmy God, oh my God, imagine
something horrendous happens.
And I, you know, I think it'sthen about recognizing the ways.
I think sometimes as parents, wecan forget that sometimes one of

(11:39):
the best things we can do forour kids is think about how we
emotionally reinforce ourselvesin certain moments and with
certain things because, youknow, the village isn't there
necessarily like it used to be.
I don't feel, um, that might bemy personal experience, but
certainly the experience I hearof lots of parents and lots of
mothers.
Um, and I also think, I dunno ifyou agree that we sort of, um,
people don't ask for help asmuch anymore.

(12:01):
People are reluctant.
Even I am, you know, even arereluctant to say, I need to lean
on you.
I need to ask for some help.
Can you come and,'cause everyoneis busy and has their own lives
and thinks that, you know,actually they don't wanna be a
burden.
I hear that a lot.
I don't wanna be a burden.
Mm-hmm.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (12:16):
I agree.
I see that so much.
I, went to a baby shower thisweekend and there were the
little cards on the table, someadvice for the new mother and I
wrote, let people help you.
Yeah.
Because I think we don't, andit, it's funny that you
mentioned that because it wasn'tintentional, but the day that I
first gave my son peanut butterand he reacted, my sister
happened to be at my house, shedoesn't live locally.

(12:37):
I wonder, looking back, like ifit, there was a part of my brain
that felt brave enough to do itthat day because, because she
was there without me planning itthat way.
Yes.
But yeah, it makes such a goodpoint we have to, find the
supports around us, and not beafraid to lean on them because
we would offer the same supportto anyone else in an instant.
All of us,

Lucy Upton, MNutr (12:54):
what I say all of the time, and I turn
around and I say, for thesepeople, which, and that
everyone's like, oh my god, in aheartbeat.
I think the other thingactually, which often isn't
spoken about widely, but I talkto a lot of my families about,
um, this is, again, some of thisis just sort of not necessarily,
you know, like in a scientificpaper somewhere, but very much
through kind of practice basedevidence is that, um, I find a

(13:15):
lot of the burden of, so ifwe're talking about introducing
allergens in the uk, that wouldvery often fall to a mother who
would be on maternity leavebecause, you know.
Dads will be back at work, forexample.
'cause standard leave is twoweeks paternity here and then
they got back.
Um, it was very much, you know,to women who also probably doing
a million other things who, youknow, might be having challenges
with their own mental health whomight be carrying a huge mental

(13:37):
load.
And actually this is anotherthing to do.
And actually, um, I talk quite alot to families, you know, when
I'm talking to mothers often oncalls or, or they're the only
one there with their baby inclinic, for example.
You know, like about how, youknow, if you are, if you
struggle to advocate foryourself, how can we empower the
other people around you to helpadvocate for you and, and your
son or daughter.
But it's, and you know, I thinkit's just a nod to the fact that

(14:00):
sometimes it's, you know, we'restruggling to, you know, we need
to ask other people to help holdsome space too, or, or help open
those doors and push open thosedoors or take control of
something for us.
And that, that is all, again,that's part of that asking for
help.
But, um, you know, supportingother people around you to
advocate can be really, reallyhelpful.
When you're a new, you know,you're a new mother.

Amanda Whitehouse, (14:20):
Absolutely.
I, I'm so glad you're sayingthat, and I hope everyone
listening is hearing andremembering all stages of life,
not just when you're a newmother..
Mm.
'cause as we said, each phasechanges and there are new
challenges ahead.
Just when you think you've gotit,

Lucy Upton, MNutr (14:33):
no one is, but no one feels like they're
nailing it for very long.
I'm, I'm sure.
I, I, I eat my words every time.
I'm like, oh, I feel like wejust got our heads around this.
And I'm like, oh, give it 48hours now.
I've sent the timer off.
I've said it out loud now.
Should have said it out loud.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think I literally said it afew days ago, um, with, you
know, with our daughter.
I was like, oh, you know, ofcourse it the terrible twos.

(14:54):
And I don't love that label,actually.
Right.
Because I think it preemptsnegativity.
And actually when you understandwhat toddler's brain is doing,
actually you can, you can viewit and for such a different lens
and with so much empathy and youfeel so much more empowered as a
parent.
Um, but generally what, youknow, I was using it in the
context of, you know, actuallydon't think she has, you know,
that many tantrums and actually,you know, she's, she's, we're,
we're doing all right.
I think, you know, we, we'vebeen luck of the draw of course,

(15:17):
and, um, very much eaten mywords this last weekend.
Uh huh.
And, uh, yes.
Again, I'm humbled by my smallhuman.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (15:27):
Well, and speaking of tantrums, and
you touched on this before, um,with when we know something, but
that doesn't mean that the fearwon't take over.
I was so excited about yourbook, but I was the most excited
when you started acknowledgingand talking about the role of
the nervous system, because thathijacks everything else.
Our knowledge.
Yeah.
Our experience.
What do you think is the mostimportant piece of this for
people to understand in terms ofthat role of the nervous system?

Lucy Upton, MNutr (15:50):
God, it's hard to niche it down, isn't it?
I, I think there's a few points,I think.
I think even just that awarenessof what is going on in our own
nervous system, but also what'sgoing on in the nervous system
of our children around eating.
And actually this feeds into,you know, if you've got a child
who's refusing food or you'rehaving a tricky time around the
table, but also it really feedsinto our food allergy children
and our food allergy parents,because actually.

(16:13):
I can almost see it when parentscome in to see me, that they are
in a constant state.
And this isn't necessarily justnewly diagnosed either.
You know?
Um, that nervous system is, ison the brink of, or tipping over
into kind of fight or flight.
Dysregulated not okay.
And you can see that, I think wecan see that from the, you know,

(16:36):
we are all aware of that fromthe people around us.
You know, oh my gosh, they seemshort today.
Oh my, I feel like I'm walkingon eggshells.
You know, so often it can feel abit finger pointy, can't it?
Whereas actually, again, when I,I think viewing kind of, I.
Us as parents, both the way welook at ourselves and are kind
to ourselves, but also thinkingabout the impact on children is
that, you know, actually if ournervous systems are not okay

(16:58):
because of, you know, let's lookat food allergies.
So, you know, try introducingnew foods, you know, during
weaning or offering somethingnew to your child before the,
you might have checked the labelthree times, but they've still
never eaten it before.
Your nervous system is probablynot going to be.
Super relaxed, chilled, nicegreen zone, um, calm and

(17:20):
regulated.
You are probably going to bedysregulated.
You're probably going to befeeling that adrenaline pumping,
that fight or flight, sort ofkicking in.
Um, I think what's worthacknowledging there, and again,
I talk to parents a lot aboutthis, is actually in those
moments, you know, parents willsay to me, it's like, I'm
looking for anything.
Like they itch their nose andI'm like, yeah, that's the
hypervigilance that comes withall that adrenaline slamming

(17:41):
around your body.
The thing, you know, the thingthat's meant to make us know
which way to run.
Um, you know, what's, what's thesafest, quickest thing I can do
to get out of this scenario and,and, you know, that fight or
flight or you know, how am Igonna make sure I dodge all of
these punches or whatever itmight be?
It's the equivalent.
You are gonna look ateverything.
You are gonna be hypervigilantabout everything you are.

(18:02):
You might fly off the handlewhen you are, you know,
desperate for them to consume afood on the milk ladder and they
reject it that day because you,you really needed it in that
moment and your nervous systemis up here.
And actually, I think it's justbeing, it's.
We don't, it's just not talkedabout enough.
I don't think we kind ofrecognize in ourself that we're
not okay.
But you know, I talk to parentsa lot about it in the context of
actually, particularly withyoung children who are not good

(18:25):
at regulating their emotions,may not have the literacy to
label them yet, you know,cognitively or even language.
Um, there's very much a figureof eight and I talk to parents
about, at the table, insert anyscenario that might feel
frustrating, anxiety provoking,et cetera.
Or might just, um, you know,agitate us, might activate us at

(18:47):
the table like when your childrefuses food for the third day
in a row, or you spend agesmaking a meal and it's gone.
And we are, you know, we'reactivated and we are pushing
ourselves.
As soon as you are not okay,they're probably not going to be
okay.
It won't take long.
And it's like a figure of eight,like.
If I'm okay, we do this constantcheck in.
I'm okay.
You're okay, I'm okay.

(19:08):
You're okay.
And that's lovely matter, thatnice and flowing.
You're okay.
I'm okay.
The moment.
And, and it can go either waywith a child and a parent.
A parent not okay child.
Probably gonna pick on thatquite quickly.
You know, young children arevery receptive and not
necessarily through what even wesay, our tone of voice, our
tension, how we hold ourself,our behaviors.

(19:29):
We might become frantic, wemight get in this space.
Um, and if we are not okay,they're gonna pick up on that.
And they're probably going tosense threats too.
And in those moments where achild is perceiving, oh my God,
my mom is not okay, I'm assumingsomething in my environment is
not safe.
That feeling of felt safety atthis table right now, gone.

(19:50):
And it could work the other way.
So child not okay in whateverway, you know, might do
something, say something, not beokay, parent won't be okay,
because you're sweeping in, youknow, and it's, it's just being
aware of that.
And I, you know, and I then Ialways lay that foundation with,
you know, this isn't me saying,why aren't you cool as a
cucumber every time?
Yeah, that's okay.

(20:12):
But it's being aware of that andbeing okay to give yourself
permission to go, okay, youknow, what am I gonna do about
this?
How am I approach this nexttime, once I've had the time to
think about this?
And also, I think I wrote thisin the book, like having some
empathy for our children, youknow, and that won't happen at
the time whilst we're in the redzone.
And whilst how won't happenwhilst we're agitated, but often

(20:35):
coming back afterwards and beinglike, oh yeah, do you know what,
that was probably really hardwork for them.
And actually I was asking themto try this food and I was
getting quite upset.
But also, you know, they wereknackered after school.
Um.
Actually had three bowls ofcereal this morning.
Maybe they weren't even hungry.
You know, it, it, but that onlyworks when that lovely logical
brain, that reasoning, thatthing that we can do with our

(20:57):
adult developed brains comesinto play.
And actually for children,that's not gonna be the case
either.
Um, I dunno what you think.
I often find that, um, it'sreally easy as us, for us as
parents to forget that we arenot just dealing with small
adults.
We are dealing with like humans,small humans.
And they are very different intheir development.
Their brain is developeddifferently and wired

(21:17):
differently at this stage interms of their, their capacity
for certain things.
Um, and I say the same withnutrition.
You know, we're not dealing withsmall adults.
We're dealing with this kind ofunique, tiny human

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (21:29):
right.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (21:30):
Still developing

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (21:31):
and dependent, so dependent on us.
And you, you know, you describedit so beautifully, my favorite
word, which you do use in thebook, that co-regulation.
Yeah.
And, and instead of sodesperately wanting, when we are
not in a good state.
We want them to be okay so thatwe can feel better.
It works in the oppositedirection every single time, and
it's so easy to say, but sodifficult to do, right?

(21:52):
Oh,

Lucy Upton, MNutr (21:52):
in the moment.
In the moment.
Because in the moment we can'tthink logically either.
We are not thinking with ourfront brain.
Biology is taking over.
You know, I say give yourself abreak.
Like at the moment it doesn'tmatter what you know, has
activated you, what the worryhas been, where your nervous
system is, but like givingyourself a hard time for it
isn't gonna be helpful, eventhough we all do it.

(22:12):
You know, just, oh, I shouldhave been calmer.
Like I should have been X.
Which is why I wanted to put itin.
'cause the more we understandabout it, the more we can kind
of approach ourselves and ourchildren with more empathy, more
understanding, and also thinkabout what we can do to
safeguard and put in place.
Things that might help.
Yes.
Because that's what the next bitis, right?
Is what can we do next?

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (22:32):
Right.
To prepare for the next time.
Hmm.
Learn from the experience.
The more we beat ourselves up,the more our nervous system
stays in fight or flight becauseit's just like someone else
attacking us specifically.
Hmm.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (22:42):
And then when the more we do that, the more
those lovely neuron pathways inthe brain fire quickly down what
we are really familiar.
You know, we are what wehabitually do, including what we
habitually think.
You know, and I always say toparents, you know, whenever we
are really sort of putting aplan in place around kind of
perhaps, you know, thinkingabout meal times or thinking
about something food allergyrelated, like approaching a
ladder or introductions, is thatactually we are gonna have to
rinse and repeat the stuff thatgoes well and that's gonna feel

(23:05):
harder.
That's gonna feel like, youknow, when you go on a walk and
you are like, I think there's apath that way.
Like I can, I can kind of seeit's there.
It has been trodden before, butthere's only a little bit of
flattened grass.
Whereas actually, you know, the,the well paved path with a clear
this way please, might be thething that we've been doing for
months, years, and it can bereally hard to try and navigate

(23:29):
a different way.
It takes time and if it take, ittakes effort and, and energy,
which, you know, classically as,as parents, we don't have lots
of

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (23:37):
Right, you said it very well earlier,
we do know we notice when peopleare off, we pick up on it
because our nervous systems arewired to notice it.
It's just changing theperspective about it.
Instead of, like you said,pointing fingers.
It's recognizing and respondingaccordingly.
That's the shift, knowing thatthat's information that that
person is giving us.
Including, like you said, ourchild recognizing where they're

(23:59):
at.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (24:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
And I think, yeah, exactlyeverything that you say, like no
finger pointing, no, no blame.
'cause actually parents carry alot of blame, you know,
especially when we're thinkingabout food allergies.
Like, I really wanna put thatkind of lens on for a minute.
You know, I hear, you know, fromdiagnosis often with parents and
particularly mothers, a lot ofself-blame talk.

(24:23):
Is it,'cause I did this inpregnancy, is it because I did,
didn't, you know, breastfeed?
Is it because I, I ate thiswhilst I was breastfeeding?
Is it because I didn't do this?
Is it because, do you know whatI mean?
Like, like that's, and that'sunderstandable.
I think that's quite a naturalsearch for like this really, um,
this really hard thing hashappened to me and my child.
Um.
And I wouldn't choose for thisto be happening and I'm kind of

(24:46):
processing that and, but womenin particular again, and that's
very much backed by research, isthat're very good at turning the
lens inwards and going, God, itmust be something I've done
wrong and, and that.
It is a mixing pot, therefore,of emotions of, you know, of
blame, of shame and um, then asort of a franticness to want to

(25:06):
fix it.
And that can be really, really,you know, sometimes we'll just
spend a bit of time in anappointment just dealing with
that bit and, you know,recognizing that there are
things that we can control asparents.
Equally, there are many thingsthat we can't, even if we look
at something like allergy risk,you know, you can't control if
you've got a geneticpredisposition to atopy in your
family, you know, I have one ofthose in my family and we carry

(25:29):
it.
And I was having a conversationwith my mum actually about that
because, you know, my sister'shad to have some quite major
surgery recently because of agenetic thing that's been passed
down.
And, um.
My mom was talking about, youknow, with guilt and blame and
these feelings, and I said, oh,it's interesting.
Would you feel guilty?
Do you feel, would you feelguilt or blame if we were
talking about the fact we've allgot hay fever?
We do.
We're like really atopic family.

(25:50):
We all got hay fever and pollfood syndrome and stuff like
that.
Do you feel guilty about that?
Mom was like, no.
You know, and, but there's, butso much of a genetic element to
that, you know?
It's, it's, it's, and it's justthe way, you know, you don't
give yourself a hard time forone thing, but you do for
another, even if they'resimilar.
It's interesting.
But, you know, I think that thatself empathy, that being aware
and then being informed canreally, really help in terms of

(26:13):
what, you know, how, what thejourney looks like ahead for you
and your, you know, you and yourchild.

Amanda Whitehouse, (26:17):
Definitely.
this is where we teeter on allthe things that we know and we
should be doing then create theguilt and the shame.
Hmm.
But you know, what you're sayingis about, I.
Creating this good foundationfor food, introduction and
eating for the rest of our livesand mm-hmm.
Of course you talk about likethe gut microbiome, all of these
things that we're talking aboutthat sound like they sound

(26:39):
behavioral, they sound mentalhealth, they sound social,
emotional.
Mm-hmm.
But they have biological tieslike when we talk about fight or
flight.
The body state of, of calm isrest and digest.
Mm-hmm.
So literally to digest our foodand to create healthy guts, we
have to spend time in the restand digest state.
Right.
That shapes our gut microbiome.
The gut microbiome can't develophealthy if we are in fight or

(27:01):
flight all the time.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (27:02):
No, no, no, no, no.
And it's well shown.
That's well shown to not, orthere'd be differences.
But again, you know, I thinkwhen I was, we talked about this
initially, didn't we?
When I was sort of writing thebook and I, you know, I was very
much sort of, um, staunchlyquite firm when I was speaking
to my publisher at the beginningand just being like, you know,
we want a book about nutrition.
We want a book about feedingkids.
And I was like, you know, wereally want that nutrition lens.

(27:22):
'cause there's so muchmisinformation and so much to
weigh throughout there.
And I was like, I willabsolutely do that.
You know, it's great to informparents on things that can
support a healthy gutmicrobiome, brain development.
Um, you know, all thosefoundations, those nutritional
foundations.
But the foundations also looklike what feeds their future in
other ways in terms of how wefeed children.
Because you're, you know, achild could have the healthiest.

(27:44):
You know, by the very healthdefine healthy, right?
But healthiest diet ever.
But if they have a terriblerelationship with food alongside
those things that they eat,actually, is that a healthier,
is that a healthy diet?
You know, and I, and I think I,you know, really wanted to kinda
make sure that do both becausethen you can make informed
decisions.
And I think that is what isreally, really important for

(28:05):
parents is that everything youdo is about, you know, we're
constantly wading throughinformation at the moment and
that when you're a parent, oh mygod, I remember as soon as I was
pregnant, like my algorithms oneverything changed and you are
like, boom, boom, boom.
And I was like, oh my god.
So much decision making.
Do we, do you know, even like,let prm do I buy?
God, could someone just, and yougo, can someone just tell me

(28:27):
what to do?
Could you just tell me the bestpram to get within this price
range?
Please.
Right.
Like, because it's constantdecision making even before your
baby's here.
There's so much sense ofresponsibility about getting
everything right.
And I think I wanted to makesure that everybody knew that,
you know, there are foundationsfor nutrition but"right" looks
different for every family.
I think it ended the book justsaying, you know, health looks
different for everybody.

(28:47):
This is here.
So you can pick and choose andbe aware and make the decisions
that feel right for you as afamily.
And also know how to navigatewhen things don't feel like
they're going, you know, quiteright.
And be aware of that.
Um, but health looks differenton everybody and it's, it's
deciding what's important foryou.
It's making yourself aware soyou can pick, move, and choose,

(29:09):
so much of what I see in thenutrition world at the moment
is, polarizing we're back togood or bad.
You know, I, I really fear forchildren growing up at the
moment who have access to thisinformation via social media
because very, you know,influential people largely with
large voices, not necessarily.
A medical, you know, robustnutritional background.

(29:30):
For example, making really boldclaims about things that are
making people feel fear aroundfood.
Again, feel, you know, and it's,and I worry for it, but, but
also very loud voices that arevery good at selling things that
they shouldn't be selling.
You know, I see the amount ofthings that if I put my, again,
food allergy lens on the amountof, um, unregulated unvalidated

(29:51):
testing that I see people doing,spending tons of money on, you
know, send your hair off forthis.
Send, send a blood sample forthis, and, you know, we're
testing for this, and I justdon't know, you know, I want to
lobby these with every ounce ofmy being because I see parents
literally flushing money downthe toilet, but also I'm getting
children down the line who'vehad all of these foods cut out.

(30:12):
Funnily enough, their symptomshaven't resolved because there's
no validation.
Um, a parent who's justcompletely lost with what to do
and actually missedopportunities along the way
because, you know, they've gonewith something that somebody has
been very confidently selling tothem.
And is, is, is, is, is preying.
It's preying on, um, parentalanxiety and the want to get

(30:34):
everything right.
And the, the unknown, you know,as parents when we don't know
what's going on with ourchildren, we want an answer and
we want it sharpish, don't we?
And I just, you know, thingslike that, lots of, you know,
lots of excessivesupplementation.
I now see being sold online andall of these things.
I see lots of sort of gut heals.
You know, your i'll, I'll cureyour child's eczema with a gut

(30:54):
heal.
And I'm like, there's noevidence space for that.
And it makes me so, you know,obviously activates me as a
health professional because Ijust think, please don't do
that.
Even as health professionals,we, we always do our best with
the information we have at thetime.
And I think this is the thing isthat the science is still
evolving, the science of foodallergy very much evolving.
It's fascinating watching it allcome out.

(31:16):
Things have changed even in thelast 10, 15 years.
You know, the same goes with,you know.
Parenting and understandingbrain development, uh, microbio,
you know, all of this is movingand so we're trying to keep as
up to date as possible, but thatalso means that sometimes when
we're, you know, parents aredesperate for answers, we will
always, we can never give ablack and white, we have to be
quite nuanced.
my favorite phrase as adietician, like, it depends.

(31:39):
And that's frustrating Itdoesn't sell on TikTok.
It depends.
Lemme tell you.
It doesn't, it doesn't, youknow, um, so I just back to, you
know, making sure you focus on,you know, informing yourself
with the information that youwant from a reliable source who
is unbiased, you know, who isn'ttrying to sell you something

(32:00):
necessarily.
I realize that this is a book,and I, I'm not trying to say in
my book, but do you know what Imean?
Like, not trying to say you aproduct or a, or a promise, I
think is, is, you know, key.
Um.
And I

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (32:12):
just, in your defense, a a research
backed book by a professionalwith decades Yes.
15 years of experience isdifferent It's a bit different.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (32:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like, I just realizedwe're talking about my book.
Um, yeah.
So it's, it's difficult forparents though.
I, I feel, you know, as aparent, I fully empathize with
how challenging it can be tonavigate all this information.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (32:34):
It is, you're right that our fear is
being capitalized on.
But I think it's not just fear,it's kind of, it's psychological
tricks, right?
It's marketing.
Yes, coming from everydirection.
So there's this one side wherewe want quick fixes, right?
We want an easy answer.
and then We wanna knoweverything that's in there.
We want choice and control.
We want all the information.
Mm-hmm.
Both wanting to know everythingand wanting a quick fix,

Lucy Upton, MNutr (32:56):
yeah.
And do you know what, it'ssomething I really talk to
families about because I, I,when I approach food allergies
with children and with parents,when we very first have a
conversation, lots of peoplealways say to me, like, as a
dietician, what's your, um, onebig overarching piece that you
want people to hear?
And I was talked to, you know,my starting point with families
is always that, you know, whenyou get a food allergy

(33:17):
diagnosis, all you hear is a lotof no.
And your child hears over time,a lot of nos, a lot of avoid,
um.
A lot of like safe, unsafe, bigwords, big words, big emotions
attached to those things.
When we talk about those things,you know, I always think of the
words, interestingly in my kindof feeding clinic, which started
to move away from safe andunsafe outside of the context of

(33:41):
allergies.
Because when we say something'sa safe food, the opposite of
that would suggest it's notsafe.
And that's actually not entirelycorrect, right?
In the context, you know, it'san accepted food versus one
that's not yet accepted or notcurrently accepted, may never be
accepted, but it doesn't reallymatter.
Anyway, different context withfood allergy.
Um, and I would say my first bitof advice is, you know, let's
have a focus on foods your childcan eat.

(34:03):
But then we also, you know, so Ireally am like a, like, let's
just shift a bit.
Like we know we've got to do theavoidance piece, but it can feel
like so much is somethingunavailable.
Like you say you then you go foranything, right?
Brands will put on the front ofpackaging, like.
You know, allergen friendly, Ithink is often the, you know,
the word which isn't really likea legal isolated, right.

(34:25):
Depending on what you'reallergic to.
Right.
Because it could say allergenfriendly and it would be based
very much on our kind of liketop 14 allergens, right?
Um, but you know, I've got lotsof children now who are allergic
to, I don't know, like pea.
Um, and that's finding its wayinto our food system.
A lot more, a lot more peaproteins and isolates and, and
it might have, you know, coconutand oats and stuff like that.
These things are no, you know,not considered to be allergens
and yet we are finding more andmore children allergic to them.

(34:48):
So, you know, it's stillnuanced, isn't it?
But I think.
As you say, there's, there's,for me, I always talk to parents
about striking that balancebetween, actually what I also
want is to make sure that yourchild is getting the broad range
of nutrients they need on arestricted diet.
And that is very importantbecause research shows that
children who have got one or oneor more food allergies are more

(35:10):
likely to be deficient incertain like, um, vitamins and
minerals micronutrients.
Um, equally alongside that, Iwant to make sure your child has
the emotional and socialexperiences around food.
So it has an element of foodsthat might be a birthday
parties, you know, that aretherefore safe and they can be
included.
There's standard dietician,always a middle ground for me,

(35:31):
but I think it is reallyimportant parents are aware that
actually across the board, westill want to be honing in on
those principles of a balanceddiet.
We want to be going, wellactually could, you know, fruit
is safe?
Could we have a piece of fruitat a snack time rather than this
thing that's multiple allergenfriendly?
You know, could we, are we.
Making sure that we're offeringthe right nutrients here rather

(35:52):
than the snacks might actuallymight be quite nutrient devoid
really.
And it might just be a bit ofcorn, you know, fine.
We all grab those things on thego, as you say.
There's no judgment that comeswith this, but it's again, just
shifting that perspective to arewe actually making sure that
we're offering the range ofnutrients children need to, um,
grow and develop in the same wayas their peers who don't have
food allergies?
You know?

(36:12):
And we know that it is harder.
And so I can fully understand,like, I get it.
I, I, every year, um, since Iqualified and started working in
food allergies, I accept myselfa challenge for like two weeks
to be like, something free, justto see what it's like, try the
new products, you know, I liketo be able to recommend things
based on some actual experience.
And, you know, if it reallydoesn't, if this milk

(36:33):
alternative doesn't work well tomake mac and cheese, I don't
wanna say that it does, youknow, because I, it just feels
disingenuous.
I love that.
Yeah.
And I.
Every year I, I'm astounded, butby exactly that.
And one thing always being like,oh my God, like, this is, every
year I'm like, I forget how hardthis is.
God, my, my food shop takes fivetimes.
And I'm like, I see you.

(36:55):
I see you.
I'm like watching these peoplechecking these labels.
And I'm like, I see you.
I know what you are up to.
I, I, I absolutely see you.
But with that, I do, you know,what I always sort of come back
to is going, well, actually, itwould be really easy to rely on
all of these other foods thatare labeled as allergen
friendly.
Hold on a minute.
I just need to go back tobasics.
I need to go to the fruit andveg.
I need to go and get some fish.

(37:17):
If I can have fish or I can goget some meat, I need to go find
some pulses in the tindle.
I need to go and find thesenutrient dense foods that are
reliable sources of nutrition.
Mm-hmm.
But I, you know, I'm very awarethat also relies a lot on, um,
feeling confident with how tocook.
And there's lots of, uh, youknow, there's, I I think maybe

(37:37):
it's quite bold of me to say, Ifeel like, um, it's quite a bit
of a lost art and, and maybeit's a lost art.
Maybe it's that we, um, don'thave as much time anymore.
'cause often two parents aregoing back to work.
And so, God, I feel it.
I, my husband was away last weekand so I had obviously had my
daughter as well.
And when there isn't one of youto look after her, whilst the
other one's like, you know, inthe kitchen and, you know,

(37:59):
everyone's like, oh, just, youknow, they can help.
And I'm like, have you seen atwo year old's attention span?
Like, she's gonna help this,this dinner's gotta be ready in
five minutes, otherwise, youknow, and so I think it's just,
absolutely, as parents, we willturn to convenience.
We will turn to easier options,but I think sometimes it's worth
taking that step back and going.

(38:20):
Hold on a minute.
Is there anything else I can beadding in here?
Anything else we can that isactually nutritionally dense?
What can they eat?
Oh yeah, God, we haven't beendown this aisle for a while, or,
you know, oh, I'm just gonnapick up a few more bags of
frozen fruit and veg, you know,that I can chuck into stuff
throughout the week.
Um, and also just be aware of,you know, over time it's, it is
gonna be about balancing.
How do we also understand theimpact of some of the other

(38:41):
ingredients might be having evenon allergy risk.
Um, there's a really interestingpaper that came out, um, was it
last year?
Don't quote me on the year, allabout kind of use of ultra
processed foods in, um, andallergy risk factors.
And actually, unsurprisingly, weknow a diet higher in ultra
processed foods seems to be, youknow, not, it's not causation

(39:01):
because it never is, butcorrelated, um, with kind of
like the food allergy side ofthings.
And we're very much looking intothat more.
And it isn't black and whitebecause there are lots of
things.
Ultra process doesn't mean badby all accounts.
You know, in the UK we rely alot on, you know, I always give,
uh, fortified serials, like asan example.
You know, lots of the childrenin the uk you know about most

(39:24):
children will rely, I think it'sthe data's around like 20% of
their iron requirements everyday are met through fortified
cereals.
For me, that's a reallyimportant nutrient and actually
for me, a really reliable sourceof nutrition that most children
will eat most days.
Can we make choices where, youknow, there's a little bit more
fiber and a little bit lesssugar and salt?
Yes, please.
That would be brilliant.
Um, but we're not gonna labelthose foods as you know, is not

(39:45):
black or white bad.
But actually, you know, there'slots of research now sort of
looking into.
You know, the impact of thingslike of certain emulsifiers on
the gut microbiome and I, andit's this really complex
interaction that really, ifwe're honest, when we think of
it from a science perspective,we're probably in our infancy of
understanding and now we're sortof starting to get those

(40:07):
glimmers and the research moneyis moving.
You know, I think we will seemore over time.
But, you know, my best bit ofadvice for parents is where you
can like, prioritize those wholefoods.
Lots of those whole foods thatwill be allergen free bar milk.
I'm just gonna caveat that milkallergy group there, um, you
know, are great.
And again, just to sort of pullsome research in, again, there

(40:28):
was yet another paper thatincludes a dietician who I think
is wonderful.
Karina Venter, who was lookingat dietary variety during
weaning and allergy risk.
And lots of the focus duringweaning is that, oh, we'll
prevent allergies by gettingthose allergens in brilliant
data behind that.
Now absolutely we should bedoing that.
But there is this body ofevidence building behind, which
is that actually, you know.

(40:49):
Giving good variety.
The more variety we add in,particularly of plant-based
foods.
So, which I mean, my brainimmediately goes, hello, gut
microbiome of plant-based foodsduring weaning.
The more we reduce allergy riskoverall too.
So not just allergenic foods,just these whole foods, these
plant-based foods.
And that absolutely is going tobe that mediation with that
lovely community of gut bacteriathat we have.

(41:11):
And again, this is all about,this isn't about dietician says
you must have a thousand foodsbefore one, because that isn't
realistic or appropriate for allfamilies or achievable, maybe
even from a financial point ofview.
But it's about going, if I'mmaking a decision between X or
Y, I'm gonna go for this, youknow, a tinned beans versus, you
know, a baby snack kind of puff.

(41:32):
Right.
You know what I mean?
Like, okay, I'm gonna try anduse that.
I'm gonna, is there somethingeasy?
Is there an easy swap?
Is there an easy change?
What can I add?
Rather than, you know, thatconstant narrative we have of
take everything taking out, out,take out, take out, take out.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (41:47):
Yes.
I love that emphasis on what Ican add, what we can give our
bodies.
The way that I phrase it with mykids, and a lot of times with my
clients, is what you just said.
What have you given your bodytoday?
Does your body need more that'sfresh today?
And how do you feel when you eatthat versus how do you feel when
you snack on a giant bag ofsalty pretzels?
Right.
Um, so I love that.

(42:07):
And I would love for you toexpand more on what language you
like to use around this, becausethe language we use affects our
nervous system.
The language we use shapes allof our beliefs about this.
It's so important.
Yeah.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (42:20):
Yeah, and I think, um, I love that I talk to
lots of families and aboutexactly that, like nutrition by
addition.
So sometimes the older childrenwill, um, get that.
And I think we need to becareful with really how we talk
around.
Um, it's diff different forparents and adults, but actually
when we're thinking aboutchildren, um.
I, well, often the earlylanguage we will start to be

(42:41):
thinking about is, is what doesthat give, like this food gives
us energy to play like it, itneeds to be relatable for that
child.
You know, I will see parents,you know, for context, again, I
think I wrote this in the book,particularly when you're
struggling to get a child to eatsomething, often we will use
like.
A health halo on it, we'd belike, you need to eat the
broccoli'cause it's good foryou.
And for a 2-year-old, that's areally abstract concept.

(43:03):
Like, what do you mean good?
Like, we know what we know.
We're like, yes, this is all offiber, it's gonna do this.
And it contains the folate.
Like they don't one need to knowthat at this stage.
Like they don't,'cause they'renot making their own decisions
around food necessarily.
And two, actually can add a lotof additional pressure, you
know, particularly when we'retrying to like this idea, you
know, lots of parents are tryingto get to my child to eat, which

(43:24):
is something I sort of try andsteer away from anyway.
That kind of mindset of kind ofsupporting is different to
getting, um, so very muchfocusing for children on like
what does it do for their body?
And that that as their age andtheir understanding increases
can sort of change.
You know, saying to a toddler,this is a really good source of
vitamin C, which means you mightnot get sick when you go to
nursery.

(43:44):
They're just like in the moment,like they're sensory motor
learners.
They're like, does it look feelgood?
Do I wanna eat it?
Yes or no?
Right.
But when you've got a childwho's going to school, actually,
you know, you can be like,actually this contains, you
know, a natural chemical that,um, or vitamin C can just label
it what it is.
Um, and vitamin C is really forour immune system, our immune

(44:05):
system help keeps out people.
We don't want to be here andhelp keeps us, well, you know,
really like almost neutral,factual kind of language.
And you know, I, I always say toparents when you're talking
around food with children toconsider like the, the three Fs.
So, um, fun for young childrenbecause they are, um,
imaginative magical thinkers.

(44:26):
Children like they learn throughplay.
They, you know, they think it'shilarious.
If all of a sudden I did this atlunchtime today, um, because my
daughter was like laughing at mebecause I had a piece of avocado
and I said it was a lizardtongue.
I was like, I've got a greenlizard tongue.
I was just being silly.
I was actually being sillybecause my husband was eating
it.
And I was like, what are youdoing?
And you know, I was like, you'vegot a lizard tongue.
Immediately.

(44:46):
I've spoken her language aroundthat food.
It's exciting.
It's different.
Hold on a minute.
We saw a lizard the other daywhen we went to the butterfly
farm.
Like, I can relate to this, youknow, I don't relate to
nutrition education.
I'm, I'm a toddler.
And then so, so there's fun.
Um, there's factual and that isvery, um, that's neutral.
And I always say, you know,things like delicious and tasty,

(45:09):
which we often use to encourage,don't we try, it's delicious.
And like that might work withyour partner or your friends who
are adults and they know you andyou know each other's food
preferences and you, you know.
But actually it's very, whatdoes that mean?
Like it means somethingdifferent for everybody.
Like Delicious is we know thatit means that you like it, but
it doesn't actually tell meanything about that food.
You know?

(45:29):
So with older children, likethat factual side of things,
when they start to become moreconcrete thinkers, you know,
actually, you know, this iscarbohydrate food, carbohydrates
give us energy to play, or thisis a fat fats really good for
our brain.
Like lots of our brain is madeof fat.
You know, that's actually justfactual.
And then I think the final thingreally is fair.
So fun, factual, and then fair.

(45:50):
And I think that's always aboutthinking, you know, if we are
talking about food, it is aboutbeing, um, fair in terms of
we're not using food as bribery.
We're not using, we're notnegotiating coercing, putting
food on a pedestal because we'retrying to get'em to eat
something.
So we say, you can have the, theice cream,'cause all of a sudden
an ice cream, even if, you know,even it's delicious anyway,

(46:11):
isn't it?
That's me.
Delicious.
It's, it's one, you know, we allenjoy ice cream anyway.
It's palatable.
It's meant to be enjoyable.
It's meant to be bought, it'smeant to be enjoyed.
It's good for the soul in somany ways.
But by saying that if you dosomething, you can have it
immediately.
We started to notch it up on thedesirability index, as I often
call it.
Like now it's something that Ihave to earn now it's something
that's withheld now I want itmore.

(46:33):
We know that kind of forbid andfruitiness can kind of, so I,
and you know, so fair is notusing food in any of those ways,
but also being really aware of,you know, if you are talking
around food to your children andyou really, really want them to
eat it is now what you aresaying solely for that purpose.
Are you supporting them to feelcomfortable around food?

(46:54):
Are you educating?
Is it feeling kind of, um, weare having that conversation
anyway or am I flooding youwith, uh, things about this
food?
'cause I'm trying to get you toeat it.
Mm.
I'm telling you it's good foryou.
It's gonna grow you bigger andstrong.
That's why little Freddy in yourclass, I bet he eats his
broccoli.
That's no longer fair.
That's starting to push overinto that pressure and goodbye
nervous system for your child.
You the child buying.

(47:14):
Okay.
The child's I'm Okay.
Is just gone.
Yep.
Take the time.
You're okay.
You're gonna be that they're noteating it.
And then goodbye.
Figure of eight.
I'm okay.
You're okay.
You're both not okay.
We're going in different, adifferent zone here.
So yeah.
Fun, factual, and fair and thenthinking very much about what it
does for us.
And make it relatable to thatchild and their age.

(47:34):
You know, nobody needs to betalking about like the Krebs
cycle for carbohydrates like.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (47:40):
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
I love that.
That was actually one of thenotes that I had here about your
book because those mnemonicshelp us remember it, right?
They help us, they doprioritize, what am I doing here
when I don't know what to say orI am starting to get frustrated.
Those are the things that bringus back into the moment of how
did I wanna approach this?
What did Lucy say about,

Lucy Upton, MNutr (47:56):
what did Lucy say?
I mean, the one thing I'llfinish on is that the biggest
language we can use when we'resupporting children.
If we want, you know, if we, wewe're encouraging them in the
way that we, you know, allparents want their child to eat
a healthy, balanced diet.
I don't think there is a singleparent I've ever met who
wouldn't want that for them.
And I think the thing toremember is like, even with all
these tips and tricks, theabsolute best language is gonna

(48:16):
be what you are doing.
Kids are gonna do what they see.
They're trusted.
Um, adults, they're trusted.
You know that they are gonnalook to you their favorite
people in the whole world.
And like to finish on somethingreally, really positive that I
always use with parents, and youmight have seen this on a video
many moons ago, is that I often,when I've got children who are

(48:37):
old enough in clinic and, youknow, whatever the context might
be around their eating, mightbe, you know, the food allergy
might be elective eating.
It might be both.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I will say to par, I willsay to the child, I'm really
interested if you could inviteanyone for dinner tonight, who
would you have dinner with?
And parents sit there andthey're like, every parent is
like, oh, I was, you know,expecting, you know, bluey or

(48:58):
was expecting, you know,Spider-Man or like, you know,
insert appropriate thing.
And I would say in the last howmany years of doing this,
there's only a handful ofchildren who haven't said, my
parents.
And I think that's just that youwatch parents' faces.
And actually really famouslythis was, I only started doing

(49:18):
this'cause it was a very famous,I think it was an advertisement,
an Australian where they did asimilar thing and I was like
interesting.
But in that moment it gives someparents something really, really
important to latch onto, whichis they want the time with you.
It isn't about the food.
I'm not asking them what theywant to eat.
I'm asking them who do they wantto spend that time with.
And I think that really honesdown into like connection can

(49:39):
come first.
Like don't think about your mealperfection.
Do not think about your healthy,balanced diet.
And that is the goal of thismealtime actually you that will
come often when children likecoming to the mealtime and they
get that connection from you andthe rest falls in place
afterwards if you are offeringit.
And I think, as I say, we can bereally preoccupied with that,

(49:59):
the new, the health bit beingthe balanced diet and the
broccoli.
Whereas actually that comesoften after we've got felt
safety and connection and a niceplace to be at the mealtime
first.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (50:08):
That's just a perfect point to end on
The line that's often, itprobably comes from Dan Siegel
Connect before you, correct?
Yes.
So yes, that's you, you, andthat includes what we want our
children to eat.
Right.
If we want to, to offer them avariety of foods to connecting
with them and eating themtogether, whether they try it or
not.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (50:26):
Yes.

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (50:26):
I I love that.

Lucy Upton, MNutr (50:27):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It's, it's, and it, and itworks, but it's, it's, you know,
it is a long game.
Right,

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (50:33):
Thank you so much for sharing all
this.
Oh, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Yes.
Please tell everybody, wherethey can find you they can find
your book everywhere, Use

Lucy Upton, MNutr (50:41):
I book everywhere and I'm trying very
much.
We're in the process of meetingmy publisher tomorrow, actually
thinking about getting printover to the us You can get it
electronically over in the US atthe moment.
No problem.
Um, so you can find me onInstagram and on TikTok'cause
apparently I'm a TikTok now.
Um, uh, at Children's Dietician.
And just a reminder for USfolks, um, in the UK we spell

(51:01):
dieticians.
God, this might soundinappropriate with"Tits", not
"Tics".
So it's dietitian with a T.
So the way more remembers it,they're like, ah, you're a UK
dietician'cause you've got"Tits", not"Tics".
I was like, okay.
And I won't forget that now.
Um, so you can find me, yeah, onInstagram, on TikTok.
I've got a website.
You can find my book, theUltimate Guide to Children's
Nutrition in lots of places now.

(51:23):
Um, and yeah, say hello.
Like I'm very much a present,present, professional who likes
to meet the audience I'mspeaking to and connect.
So.
I can

Amanda Whitehouse, PhD (51:32):
attest to that.
You, you responded so quicklywhen I reached out to you.
I'm so excited about your book.
I wanna have you on the show andboom, you're like, I'm in.
So thank you so much for doingYeah, pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you again so much to LucyUpton for joining me for this
episode.
Sharing all of your expertiseand shedding light on the
importance of embracingnutritional wellness in a
healthy and confident way.

(51:52):
As we wrap up, here are yourthree action steps that you can
take.
Number one, Follow Lucy as shehilariously explained the
spelling her social media handleis at Children's Dietitian,
D-I-E-T-I-T-I-A-N, Number two,get your hands on Lucy's book.
I'm in the US and many of mylisteners are too.

(52:14):
You can purchase it on Kindle,and if you're not, you're
fortunate to be able to get acopy in your actual hands.
It is absolutely worth the time.
It is called"The Ultimate Guideto Children's Nutrition: How to
Nurture Happy, H ealthy Eatersin the First Five Years." This
book is not just about what tofeed your kids and when, but how
and how to make the relationshipwith food judgment free.

(52:36):
I will be buying the book foranyone I know and love who is
having a child.
Number three, I would encourageyou to just.
Open the door to your pantry tosoak in everything that you've
learned, everything that youhave had to work around and
accommodate and advocate for,and protect, and just take stock
of all of the hard work that youhave done to get to whatever
point in your food allergyjourney you're at at this point

(52:58):
in time.
the content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only, andis not a substitute for
professional medical or mentalhealth advice, diagnosis, or
treatment.
If you have any questions aboutyour own medical experience or
mental health needs, pleaseconsult a professional.
I'm Dr.
Amanda White house.
Thanks for joining me.
And until we chat again,remember don't feed the fear.