April 14, 2025 • 55 mins
Welcome to Season 4 of Don't Feed the Fear — a new chapter I'm calling “I Don’t Want to Talk About It.” This season is all about the things we avoid — the fears we carry in silence, the emotions we push down, and the stories we tell ourselves (and sometimes don’t) about life with food allergies. The episode also touches on last season's discussion of strengthening our trust in our support systems.
This episode is a powerful and tender conversation with retired paramedic and grief guide, John Moir, host of the Urban Grief Shamans podcast and leader of grief healing circles for those navigating deep loss.
In this episode, we explore:
- The hidden emotional toll of food allergy emergencies
- What grief looks like when there's no "death"
- How first responders experience trauma and their role in ours
- Why naming our grief is a crucial step toward healing
John brings a rare blend of insight and compassionate presence, inviting us to look gently at the parts of our story we usually avoid. This is a conversation for anyone who's ever had to hold it together during a crisis — and is now wondering what to do with the weight they still carry.
Whether you’re a parent, a patient, or a professional, this episode is a reminder that grief and anxiety don’t mean something’s wrong with you — they mean something happened. And you deserve support for that.
Urban Grief Shamans - Alternative Spiritual Healing and Growth
Break Free, Reclaim Power & Find Peace with Soulful Healing
Home - Soulful Sorrows
The Wild Edge of Sorrow a book by Francis Weller and Michael Lerner - Bookshop.org US
Vial of Life
Special thanks to Kyle Dine for permission to use his song The Doghouse for the podcast theme!
www.kyledine.com
Find Dr. Whitehouse:
-thefoodallergypsychologist.com
-Instagram: @thefoodallergypsychologist
-Facebook: Dr. Amanda Whitehouse, Food Allergy Anxiety Psychologist
-welcome@dramandawhitehouse.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Moir (00:00):
You're entering into an apprenticeship with grief,
(00:03):
and we know nothing about it.
We don't talk about it in oursociety., The bottom drops out.
It's like you just, you fall,and you keep falling, and you
keep falling.
and we associate that feeling isalways going to be there.
And it's, it's not.
It's an ongoing process.
(00:24):
There's nothing to be healed.
you are not broken if you'regrieving deeply.
It's part of the humanexperience.
Speaker (00:34):
Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear podcast, where we
dive into the complex world offood allergy anxiety.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amanda Whitehouse, food allergyanxiety psychologist and food
allergy mom.
Whether you're dealing withallergies yourself or supporting
someone who is, join us for anempathetic and informative
journey toward food allergy calmand confidence..
(00:57):
Welcome to the spring season ofthe Don't Feed the Fear Podcast.
It's spring here in Buffalo, butspring in Buffalo means that it
has snowed three times in thelast week.
Today's episode is beginning thespring season in true Buffalo
style by backtracking a littlebit into the winter season,.
I've asked my friend John Moirto join us.
(01:19):
Originally I had a conversationwith him in mind for the winter
season which focused on oursupport systems, and so you are
getting a taste of my supportsystem.
John is a friend of mine throughhis partner Patricia, who is
also a dear friend of mine.
She's a fellow psychotherapistand she's also the parent of a
child with a severe foodallergy.
(01:40):
I wanted to have John come on totalk with us about the part of
the support system that we don'tget to choose when there's an
emergency requiring a 9 1 1call, whoever shows up at our
door is who we get.
And I'm so thankful that overthe years that those people who
did come into my home were sokind and caring and reassuring
and capable and took such goodcare of my son and the other
(02:01):
family members in my life thathave had emergencies too.
I thought it would be so helpfulfor you as listeners to get a
peek into the mindset and theperspective of the people who do
come into our homes and into ourlives in times of emergency to
help us.
And the way that John alwaystalks about it with so much
compassion and respect for hispatients has always felt really
(02:22):
healing to me in terms of seeingmy own.
Experiences through his lens.
So I wanted to share that withall of you.
But of course we can't stopthere.
John Moir's experiences in hiscareer as a paramedic led him in
his retirement to continueexploring the lessons of grief,
loss, healing, and personalgrowth that affected him
(02:43):
throughout his own life andthrough his profession.
So he created his podcast tobring grief literacy out into
the open and into ourdiscussions.
John and Patricia do grief worknow together they hold grief
circles and workshops.
So talking with John made mequickly realize what the next
season of the podcast needed tobe.
As I sat and contemplated ifpeople were ready to hear a
(03:05):
conversation about grief.
Grief is one of the things thatwe don't talk about, that we all
have experience with and wedon't know what to do with or
how to handle.
We're not taught, we havelimited social norms for how to
navigate it and a limitedperspective of what it is.
And I think as individuals withfood allergies or parents.
(03:26):
Raising children with foodallergies, we often have a lot
of unacknowledged grief.
So welcome to the beginning of aseason where we are going to
talk about the things thatnobody wants to talk about.
And if this season is not foryou, I take no offense.
I'm amazed at how quickly theshow has grown, and I am
absolutely prepared for mydownloads to drop as I publish
(03:47):
this episode because I recognizethat some people are just not in
a place emotionally to havethese discussions.
Everyone's window of tolerancefor talking about emotionally
distressing things is differentand I have respect for you in
deciding where you're at in yourlife and whether this is content
that's right for you.
But if you do proceed withlistening, know that there may
(04:07):
be parts of the episode thatwould be triggering.
We're going to talk aboutmedical emergencies.
We're going to talk about death.
We're gonna talk about grief andloss.
So if that is for you.
I'm very excited for you to joinme in talking to my good friend
John Moir.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (04:24):
John, thank you so much for being on
Don't Feed the Fear.
John is the one who got mepodcasting and the reason that
I'm here because he has his ownpodcast and shared all of his
resources and platforms with meto make it easy for me to get
started.
So thank you for that and thankyou for coming here on the show.
John Moir (04:40):
Well, thank you for inviting me.
As I said to, uh, to you whenyou first gave me the
invitation, I was pretty excitedyou're one of our favorite,
people.
And, it's actually the firsttime I've been on, someone
else's podcast other than mine,My podcast is The Urban Grief
Shamans, and my thing is talkingabout grief and, shamanism and
how the two come together forhealing.
(05:02):
And it's not so much differentthan, in a sense, from what I
understand with the kind of workthat you're doing.
You know, mine might have just abit more of a spiritual context
to it, but it's the, still the,the grief that comes along
sometimes when we're so worried.
I would think about our childrenand, the pressures to, be a good
mother or a good father, butsomehow I think it's the mothers
(05:23):
who carry the, the burden of,of, of that.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (05:27):
that I think is originally not the
reason that I asked you to beon.
But let's start with thatbecause I think people think of
grief and they think of death,and they don't, necessarily
recognize the grief in their ownlives from, from their everyday
experiences.
And we in the allergy communityhave so much grief and loss
about, you know, the lives weimagine for our children and the
(05:48):
safety.
And I would love it if you wouldtalk about that first, as you're
mentioning this huge topic thatnobody likes to talk about and
you have a whole podcast aboutit.
So let's dive in.
John Moir (05:58):
Well, yeah, I always have to mention Francis Weller,
uh, who is a big mentor formyself and, uh, my partner.
And, he wrote this lovely book.
It's called, The Wild Edge ofSorrow, and in that, uh, he uses
this beautiful soulful language.
And it's very non clinical.
(06:18):
And I think it, uh, for me itreally touched my heart and it,
uh, gave me the, um, the ideathat, when I grow up I want to
be like Francis Weller.
To be of service in that way.
Because I was coming to the endof my, my, career as a paramedic
and, uh, retirement was, wascoming.
And, uh, it was a way to kind ofjump back in of being of service
(06:39):
to others.
And, so one of the very firstthings that Weller talks about
is everything that we love, welose.
Sometimes it's a really big lossof personal relationship.
the loss of our, our own health.
And as you mentioned, you know,the loss of our children's
health or the difficulties thatwe see our children going
(07:00):
through, that we can't providethe kind of lifestyle or the,
just the life that we experienceas, as, as our own childhood as
we went through those things.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (07:11):
I think it does affect people so
differently in such differentways and on all aspects and
that's part of the loss, right?
Like you said, my childhood waslike this.
I imagined you doing this orgoing here.
John Moir (07:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (07:23):
and so there is, you know, such a
variation.
It can affect any aspect and allaspects of our lives,
John Moir (07:29):
Yeah.
And I would think that perhaps,Amanda, one, a big one I'm just
thinking of now is that just theloss of security, can you leave
your child alone for a period oftime or, just those kinds of
concerns My kids would go outthe door and I would never.
that wouldn't be a thought atall.
You know, what's, what's goingto happen in the lunchroom or in
the classroom or some kid goingto try and play a joke and hand
(07:53):
something stupid to your child,because they know that that
might be funny in some way, butit of course isn't.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (08:00):
Right, right.
Yeah, that sense of safetythat's in the sense of control
and protection, which obviouslynone of us have, but some of us
have the benefit of the illusionof control until something like
this takes it away from us.
John Moir (08:12):
Yeah, you're so right.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (08:14):
One thing I thought I would mention the
way that I know John is throughmy dear friend, Patricia, who is
a psychotherapist friend, whichis how I initially know her.
And she does this grief workwith you now.
Um, and so you and she and I,you know, in, in what I'm
learning from you about griefand what's becoming so
pronounced to me, even though Iknew it from my training, is
(08:34):
that grief is It's how we tendto want to avoid, we tend to
want to not discuss and not seeit and how much healing there
is, in acknowledging it andexploring it and honoring it and
what I've learned from the twoof you about such a beautiful
way of doing that is such amindset shift.
Because as a therapist, I wantto make people feel better.
(08:54):
I want to say, here are someskills.
You haven't lost your child'shealth, right?
This is just an aspect of theirmedical needs, but not lost.
But really, there's so muchpower and healing available in
embracing the grief.
And I would love it if you couldshare, much more eloquently than
I can, about that and why it'svaluable.
John Moir (09:14):
what I've come to learn about, about grief is that
it's probably the, the, thequintessential emotion that we
as people, as humans, um, one,we have to go through it.
it's in our DNA to grieve.
It's like that, that grindingstone, you know, you have that,
(09:36):
that beautiful rock and then itgets turned into a diamond and
it sparkles And that's what,that's what grief does to us.
when we hit, we get hit withthat first change, uh, that,
that loss.
And I'm thinking, you know, likethe really big ones whatever it
may be, it may be a loss of a, apet or, certainly a partner.
your house, your job we woulddescribe it as an
(09:58):
apprenticeship.
You're entering into anapprenticeship with grief, and
we know nothing about it.
We don't talk about it in oursociety., The bottom drops out.
It's like you just, you fall,and you keep falling, and you
keep falling.
And, those early parts of thegrief, which is just, you know,
(10:20):
disbelief and anger and all thiskind of stuff that we try to
argue with.
it's the beginning.
And, and we associate thatfeeling is always going to be
there.
And it's, it's not.
Everybody's going to grievedifferently.
So I don't want to put our timeon it.
There's, there's some people,it's very quick.
Others, it's just, it's anongoing process.
(10:41):
It's kind of an oxymoron,because I always say, Oh, you
know, come and enjoy my griefhealing workshop.
But there's nothing to behealed.
You know, you are not broken ifyou're grieving deeply.
It's part of the humanexperience.
And you'll go through it morethan once.
when you had a few big griefs ofwhen you, you know, could have
(11:03):
lost your life or, uh, fewillnesses or accidents, um, or,
uh, even having somebody closeto you that recuperated, The
experience is is that, um, yourealize.
What you do have is much moreimportant.
I'm not talking about materialthings.
The fact that you're still hereon this, this planet.
(11:23):
You've gotten through this.
And what grief does for us, thathoning process, it allows us to
embrace compassion much more.
We become greater compassionatebeings.
We love more deeply.
we start to have a certain graceand, um, And it just allows us
(11:44):
to, see everybody differently.
You know, we make more room inour hearts for, for those who
have less.
We make more room in our heartsfor the bullies.
And it comes down to, there's noone that's better than the
others.
Everybody is beautiful, itdoesn't matter how roughed up it
is there's still great beauty tobe seen there.
(12:06):
And certainly within ourchildren who may not be so well
or not be seen as being perfectin the eyes of relatives or
other people.
They're all stunning, beautiful,beings.
But it's that, that journeythrough grief.
That, makes a difference.
And what I found for myself isthat, you get through the big
(12:26):
part.
You get through that dark, thedarkness, that Weller talks
about.
And, and that's what people arealways afraid of, that I'm never
going to come out of it.
Or they think that, Well, if Idon't hang on to that, then I
don't have any connection to theone that I loved.
And it's such a falsehood I liketo say it becomes this wonderful
(12:49):
melancholy.
Every once in a while it comesup, this longing, and then, and
then it just, Flitters away,until the next time it kind of
comes up.
What it did for me, I can, lookat my partner.
When we're shopping and I cansee her just doing something
simple is just picking up, I hada lettuce or something, but I,
(13:09):
there'd be this longing.
That's created, she's not ill.
It's part of, the process ofloving, but there's that
longing, knowing.
that our relationship is notgoing to be forever.
it could go, in a heartbeat, infive minutes from now, other
times it might be years, but,uh, eventually we will lose all
(13:31):
that we love.
But I'm thankful for thatlonging.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (13:36):
Well, I'm thankful for that description,
because we carry so much of it.
even though we've talked aboutthis before and Patricia and I
have talked about it, I never.
that experience, my, my allergymom experience in terms of, I
knew there was grief, but theway that that hones me, right?
Like you said, that, that honingprocess and every time it
(13:59):
resurfaces when something scaryhappens or, or I have that, that
rejuvenation of the grieffeeling, it also is followed by
exactly what you said.
This, this reconnection to mychild, this, this, this.
Emphasis on being able to seetheir wholeness, being able to
see his perfection in just theway that he exists and
(14:22):
cherishing that so much that Imight have the day before when I
was complacent before something,you know, scary happened and
stirred up the grief inside ofme.
So thank you for thatpersonally, because that's a new
way for me to be able toarticulate it that I didn't have
before this.
John Moir (14:40):
Yeah.
you must see the courage.
that these children possess.
Uh, I can't imagine that, you'regoing out the door with not much
armor on.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (14:51):
I say that all the time.
Allergy kids are the bravestpeople that I know.
And I don't think I give myselfenough credit, even though I can
see it in the other parents,that so are we.
Because there's our heartwalking around in the world,
outside of our bodies.
So, you're right.
We tend to not give ourselvesenough credit and one version of
that, I think, is people whomight be listening to this and
saying, well, sure, there'sgrief when there's, when there's
(15:13):
a death, right, or, oranticipating the loss of a
person.
But I think some of us wouldminimize and say, you know, it
can't be grief over somethingthis, this small.
That's not a death.
But it, but it can, I know thatit can.
And I, I wonder what you wouldsay to those people who would
kind of get into thatcomparative space of like, well,
nobody died.
(15:34):
So it's not grief that I'mexperiencing.
John Moir (15:37):
Well, look around you, when you're in a shopping
mall and you just see peopleshopping.
the ones who have to keep buyingthings, it's like a self, uh,
self soothing by having to buyand get out and get a new dress
or a new car or whatever.
When we have all these littlegriefs, what it's really doing
to us, we just push it down andpush it away.
(15:59):
But it's actually, um, when wedo that, uh, we, we kind of push
a part of ourselves away.
So with, that grief and notacknowledging it, it, we leave
parts of ourselves, you know, wedon't want to acknowledge that,
that grief.
We don't want to acknowledgethat experience.
Uh, I want to forget about thisor forget about that.
(16:20):
And, and so a little bit goes.
But it anesthetizes us to thepain.
that we are experiencing or notacknowledging.
Right?
And then we have this amnesiathat what we settle for now is
so much less.
Grief makes us small.
It's just what happens.
(16:40):
We just, we tuck her back, wetuck back in and become small.
And, uh, you know, we can't behappy.
yeah, it anesthetizes us and,uh, makes us just forget.
And so we, we have all theseother behaviors now that come in
place and, uh, we don't live thebig life.
You know, we go around.
(17:01):
just fighting off, you know, anykind of acknowledgement that
that part of us even exists.
so, yeah, just look around.
and what happens is, is that,uh, we have all these mini
griefs, as these people wouldsay, what's the big deal?
We're really sad.
And then next thing you know,we're, we're picked up and away
we go again.
(17:21):
And we think, oh, we've beatenit.
or how many, how many.
Puppies that people had over theyears and some will get a dog
almost right away when they loseone, people want to replace,
They're goldfish as quick asthey can, as opposed to allowing
the child to go through thatgrief.
we, we have to learn it fromsomeone.
(17:41):
And if we can't model it fromour parents, then who is it that
we're going to model after?
I grew up in a time when, youknow, men, uh, just weren't
allowed to cry, right?
You just can't do that.
And, uh, One of the things thatgrief has given me, I cry all
the time now.
And, uh, if I see any kind of afilm or TV thing that has, you
(18:08):
know, where there's a, breakupwith a relationship between a
parent and a child, that getsme.
That gets me.
You get those big lumps.
But I'm not afraid of thoselumps anymore.
I'm not afraid to cry in public.
And our kids can see that, andI've certainly been teaching my
kids more how to do that.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (18:30):
Will you talk about how you do that?
What do we, as parents actuallydo that you can describe to
people and action they can taketo change that and to teach that
to our kids.
John Moir (18:40):
They just have to model it.
When something bad happens, wethink that we're protecting our
children by not talking aboutit, or talking about their
feelings.
they all have their own, butthey want to know what, what are
your feelings truly.
And if we can't be honest withour kids about, I'm really upset
(19:01):
and see me cry.
You know, that, men don't cry.
You know, it's, that's, that'snot right.
You know, it's teaching, uh,that one, their daughter perhaps
that this is what she's going tohave to enforce on her kids.
You know, and then for the son,you just learn from the father
that you don't do that.
You know, or, or I'm going to beseen as not being a man, you
(19:25):
know, as we all try to modelafter our mothers and fathers.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (19:28):
Right.
And then as you said.
Then these parts of ourselvesget cut off and suppressed and
disconnected from the part, thepiece of us that's around and
functioning in the world.
Me as a psychotherapist.
we call it IFS internal familysystems.
And we also talk about parts andhow we need to.
Reintegrate.
We have to have all of the partsof us be heard and acknowledged
(19:50):
and have their needs met.
And if we're not listening towhat they are, as you said,
these parts of us get, getdisconnected and we become
smaller and smaller.
And what's left is only theparts who are trying to keep the
other parts from crying in frontof people or from feeling sad.
And we, we become thoseprotective and defensive actions
instead of our full.
(20:10):
complete selves.
John Moir (20:12):
You're kind of touching on what I would call
like the, those parts, uh, ofourselves that are, Shame.
Shame is, would be the numbertwo kind of main vector the way
grief comes to us.
I think that it's almostimpossible to get out of
childhood not being stained insome way by a sense of, of
(20:33):
shame.
And it might be something thatyour parents said or you thought
you heard it and misinterpretedit in a, in a, um, I in your own
way, and that you felt guilty.
You felt like, like, I'm not agood boy.
If I do something like this,then they're not going to love
me anymore.
And, and then there goes thetrust, and I must be a terrible.
(20:55):
we carry this, uh, this shameand so we bury it.
But we bury it so deeply that wedon't want to talk about it.
We don't want people to knowthat part about ourselves.
And so as, as the shame goes, ittakes our, our life essence with
it.
and even in EMS, uh, you wouldsee just the stuff that we're
not supposed to see.
(21:16):
You're leaving a piece ofyourself somewhere in an
outpost.
it steals our essence, our lifeessence.
And then we want to startcontrolling things.
We want to start controllingevery aspect of what we do as
people and how we love.
And certainly we become lessvulnerable because we don't
trust, I think.
(21:38):
And we don't even likeourselves.
Right?
all those parts of ourselves arescattered everywhere except
where they're supposed to be,which is, you know, in our
hearts.
And so when we look in themirror, then, I can't stand that
person, It's all signs of, of,grieving.
Dr. Amanda Whitehou (21:54):
Absolutely.
And I would love to use thistalk about shame to segue into
the other piece of things, whichyou just mentioned your role,
um, as a paramedic and an EMSfor your, your career, you know,
throughout the bulk of yourlife.
That's the reason that Iinitially thought to have you on
the show.
Um, Because, and when we weretalking about it, I was
(22:14):
explaining to you, we carry somuch shame as allergy parents.
And for me, there's no time thatit is bigger than when there has
been an emergency, or a mishap,or an accident, or a mistake
that has led to needingemergency medical intervention.
And so, there is, this range ofdifferent thoughts and
experiences that other allergyparents I know have had when we
(22:37):
have had to call.
From things like, you know, myhouse is a mess, my pajamas have
holes in them, and of coursewe're not going to hesitate to
get care for our kids, but atthe same time, why are we
feeling shame about things likethat in a moment like that,
these tiny little shamefulthings, and then of course the
big things.
underlying shame of, I messed upand now there's an emergency and
I need to call these people tocome and help my child, which
(23:00):
obviously parents listening, Idon't think you made a mistake.
things happen.
I'm not blaming you, but I'mjust talking from my personal
experience, how difficult it is.
And I've heard you talk sobeautifully, John, about your
experience in that role and whatit's like for you coming into
people's homes to help themduring those difficult times.
Most awful times of their lives.
(23:20):
I thought it would be so healingfor people to have that
perspective from you and to knowwhat you are bringing into their
homes during those worstmoments.
John Moir (23:30):
When I first started as a paramedic, I started in,
uh, 78 and, You learn from thepeople who were before you,
right?
Like there's what we call theold timers, the guys who've been
on the job way longer than whenwe're just starting out.
We're real like eager and justwant to get going and save the
world.
it took me a while to, reallyget a handle on what was going
(23:51):
on EMS it was probably the, the,the best thing I've done in my
life because it, uh, you go homeat the end of the day and, I'm
going home, but there's a fewpeople today that aren't going
to ever go home.
And, uh, I've been in, A lot ofpeople's homes, and you've seen
the affluent, you've seen thehave nots, and everything in
(24:13):
between.
Being a paramedic.
What we do is we, our job is toturn chaos into, peace and quiet
as opposed to judging.
Going into people's homes canbring, for me, a lot of joy,
because you just see howdifferent people are.
you learn so much about yourselfwhen you go into their own
(24:34):
people's homes, that's theirprivate place.
And how they, you think theylive, or how they, you think
they treat each other.
You learn so much about how, howdifferent we are as a species.
How wonderfully different thatwe are.
it reminds me of, a call that,we did and I can't remember the
(24:55):
chief complaint, maybe it was togo get her and take her down for
a medical appointment, but she'sbedridden.
And, um, we get there, and it'sone of these subsidized housing
places.
And, we go inside.
We always have to look around.
I don't know of any medic whodoesn't look around.
and try to clear our space.
(25:15):
we do come in with an eye openand just looking, and we
probably look like we'rejudging, uh, but it's not.
It's just looking around.
this was a small apartment.
And, you know, I could see thesink just full of, of dirty
dishes, the husband was there.
But in the middle of thiskitchen, and kind of going into
(25:36):
the tiny living room, was thishospital bed.
And, I'm going to get a littlechoked here, but, and this
wonderful, wonderful lady justlaying in bed.
She can't really move too much,I'm not sure if it was
Parkinson's or whatever it wasthat she had, but she needed to
be taken care of.
transported.
(25:57):
And, um, so there was all thisvisual cues going on,
stimulating my brain, like,like, you know, wondering what's
this, what's that.
And then all of a sudden, I,when I looked at her, Amanda, it
just stopped.
She was the, the epitome ofgrace.
(26:18):
laying in that bed.
And, uh, so we, did what we hadto do.
We just, you know, kind of, Gether prepared for transport and
get what we need in, into thetiny space and, got her on the,
uh, stretcher and,, packed upand then we, we left.
I was, uh, driving the, thevehicle at the time and my
partner was in the back withher.
(26:40):
And, um, my mind was thequietest.
it has ever been.
I was driving, but my mindwasn't chattering at all.
I couldn't believe thedifference.
That's why she's so memorablefor me.
Something about her had touchedme and, um, it was amazing.
so that's an example of walkinginto someone's house that's,
(27:03):
you're thinking one thing, and,uh, the experience is so
completely different.
so we don't really care what,uh, how you're dressed.
Uh, we try to protect people'sdignity, we go into a lot of,
older people's homes.
And, they'll die in their homes.
And, we get called for that.
And, we might be the only onesthere.
(27:23):
And, there's a certainsacredness that, uh, always has
touched me coming into aperson's home when they're,
they're the last ones.
And, before any of their lovedones know what has happened to
this, this person.
And, um, that always touched me.
But you go into the bedroom,we're looking around now, we'll
(27:43):
walk around the apartmentlooking for, prescription meds.
try to get a handle on why thisperson might have died, but you
see all the pictures, all the,the weddings and the, the
weddings of their children andthe weddings of their
grandchildren, perhaps.
old friends, like those oldblack and whites that are fading
on their, on their, the bedsidetables, on the walls.
(28:07):
So, that's another experiencethat I thoroughly enjoyed.
It doesn't matter, you don'thave to have a beautiful house.
You don't have to have beautifulclothes.
Um, it goes two ways.
you think as a parent that we'rejudging you, whereas, you know,
most of the time we're probablylearning from you.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (28:29):
And heightened emotion in a
different way, but there's somereciprocation there in terms of
the connection of this humanexperience that is going on,
like the way you're describingthe way you're touched by these
people and their, their, theirpresence in their lives.
For me, at least it's been justso helpful to hear you talk
about it such a compassionateway because, we don't hear
people talk about what it's liketo be in your shoes.
John Moir (28:51):
Yeah, we've had a lot of parents that have been,
brought to tears and, reallyupset and thinking the worst is,
is happening to their, theirlittle loved ones.
they're a patient as well.
there's two, there's the childand then there's the mother.
most, most crews know that andwill treat the people like that.
(29:12):
And, the first thing that, if wecan get the mother calmed down
sometimes this is getting ablanket, put them around them.
just to bring their, anxietydown is so helpful for the child
because now they're not sofearful for the mother or the
father.
and then to the point where theycan start telling us what's
going on because we rely on, onthe mother for everything.
(29:34):
The child could be looking fineto, to us and we'll certainly
assess the child.
but it's the changes that themother see, which is the big
diagnostic for us, So it's soimportant to have, parents,
mothers, to be grounded andcentered so they can help and
(29:54):
and we're part of that helpingthem to help us,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (29:58):
in my own experiences, which I've had a
handful, and they varied, butthat has been so helpful to me,
the calming presence of someonecoming in and taking the feeling
of everything is on my shouldersright now, to, Someone walking
in who, who knows more than I doabout what needs to be done.
the one first EMS call we had inthis home that we're in, the man
(30:18):
happened to share with me thathe lives in my neighborhood and
he told me where his house wasand I drive by it every day and
I'm not kidding you.
Every time I drive by thathouse, I look in there and I
just like, feel thankful for himand how he, how he did come into
that moment and, and bring thatcalm and presence to me so that
we could focus on my kiddo.
John Moir (30:35):
yeah and another thing that's helpful for for us
if Up here.
We did have a vile life programfor a while where there's a list
of all the meds and the medicalhistory Anything that would be
important like their hospitalnumbers or health card numbers,
date of birth, all that stuff,for the whole family and, have
(30:57):
that in the fridge or have itsomewhere when there is an
emergency.
And, hopefully you never have totake it out, but, if you do,
it's there and we look in thefridge,, there used to be a
program, I don't know if it'sdown in the States, you put an
emblem on your door that youcould walk in and then it tells
(31:17):
us, okay, there's medicalrecords here or something, you
know, that are going to behelpful.
And it's just so nice to haveall that because now we can just
focus.
We don't have to worry about.
my glove became my notepad, allthe scribbles and everything on
that.
And, uh, sometimes I'd have totake that off carefully so I
could refer to it later on.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (31:38):
What was that called in Canada?
You said vile?
John Moir (31:41):
Vile, uh, vile of life.
Yeah.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (31:43):
Got it.
John Moir (31:44):
Basically, it was just a form that was rolled up
and put in a, uh, a prescriptioncontainer.
And then it was just attached,uh, inside the fridge.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (31:53):
that makes so much sense and I don't
know of anything like that butI'm going to do a little digging
around, What else do you, uh,with allergy calls specifically,
is there anything else that wantparents to know that you wish we
would do or that would be morehelpful or not do?
John Moir (32:06):
yeah, access, gaining access to your home.
is a big one.
I know that, sometimes it can bejust, horrifying if it was like
a true anaphylactic, reactionthe child's having a real big
difficulty.
And, so having the doorunlocked, having it, perhaps
even cracked open.
If it's, all the snow that wehave, I don't know how many
(32:28):
times we couldn't get to thehouse because of, it's, they
just haven't cleared the, thesidewalks in days.
Um, or even, uh,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (32:36):
biggest anxieties.
We live in Buffalo, and you knowhow our weather is here, too.
And when there is a snowstorm,everyone else is like, yeah, we
don't have to dig out.
Everything's canceled.
I need a path to that roadbefore I can sleep because of
that exact reason.
John Moir (32:49):
yeah, yeah, that's always a big help.
we always look for, you know,health cards if they have them.
If not, we don't worry about itbecause, the hospital can get
that later.
And most likely the, the child'sgoing to be known at the, the
local hospital anyways.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (33:03):
Tell me if this is a bad idea.
I keep all those things, like acopy of, of that, of his
insurance card, and all of theinformation right in the pouch
with his epi.
And I've handed them, right whenthey come in the door, I've just
handed that to them along withthe used And, is that helpful or
am I
John Moir (33:19):
very, very, no, that's, that's, uh, uh, if it
was only done like that all thetime.
And, uh, It's certainly a spentcartridge, as this goes along
with the, with the child.
It's just a way of documentingthe, the meds that were given,
so to speak,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (33:35):
I've taken it to the hospital, in the
ambulance with us and asked, andnobody ever wanted it from me,
and I'm like, okay, but I readeverywhere to take it with us,
so
John Moir (33:44):
Well, it's important, especially if the child is still
having a ton of dyspnea, and,short of breath, was anything
given and what time was itgiven?
You know, those are all factorsthat are just, give us a bit of
an idea, is, is the childstabilizing?
Mm hmm.
Or is a child still gettingworse even having a load of
(34:05):
epinephrine on board?
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (34:06):
I think it's helpful, maybe someone
who's never called to, to betold, here's what might happen
if you call.
I think for someone who doesn'tknow what to expect, it might be
less anxiety provoking if youwere to describe, what, what
might we do to help.
At the house and on the way.
John Moir (34:22):
There's a couple perspectives and, I'll just
describe a typical scene.
We, we, we show up and, thedilemma for the paramedics, is
that, so often that there'd be aloved one who's just frantic.
And, and when we look at the,patient, they may not look as if
they're under that muchdistress.
(34:43):
So we have a, to try to, get ahandle on the situation and
decide what we want to do andwhere we're going to go.
We always look at the, at theparents, as the advocate for the
child.
And that's what I said, I think,earlier that, that, they're our
first line of, communication andtrying to understand what's
going on.
And regardless of the conditionof the emotional state of the
(35:05):
mother, what her story is takesprecedent.
Like, we have to pay a lot ofattention to that.
We don't know the child.
But there's sometimes, though,it's when we're trying to, to
settle things down, uh, thatreally upsets the, parent
because they think that we arenot paying enough attention or
we're not moving fast enough.
(35:27):
And the one thing that we won'tdo is typically is run., it was
like the first, my firstteaching, brand new on the, on
the tracks I got finally gotthat first call and, uh, I went
over and threw the, the, thestation doors up and I thought
they're going to come off thetrack.
And the guy was really good.
We got in there and he says, uh,You know, we we never run.
(35:48):
If you fall and and hurt andtrip and blah blah blah, then
you're no good.
So we all got to, you know, justbe safe ourselves to begin with.
um, but in the home situation,sometimes that's that just,
parents want you to move faster.
And and there's so much morethat's going through our minds
it's not that we're not havethat sense of urgency.
(36:10):
by all of that, it says there'ssomething going on.
But, uh, we just can't, we can'ttake on the, the same energy
that the parents have.
We have to bring, bring somecalmness and, and we take a look
at the child, and we take a lookat the parent, who needs the
care most right now.
And it might be, just be themother who really needs support
(36:31):
and talking, you know, quietlywith, and why we need you to be
able to tell us what's going onhere.
Can you have that moment of, of,of quiet and just focus and then
tell us your story,, so theother thing that, you know, is
always good is, is explaining tothem, what we're going to do,
what things that we need to do.
(36:52):
Make sure you bring your purse,any ID, all that kind of stuff.
And who's going to look afterthe other children in the house?
You know, bring them all in theback of the ambulance.
So you have to get a neighbor.
know, to come over and sit withthe children while we, we take
you and your child to the, tothe hospital.
(37:13):
but usually the, the, thescenario really is that, uh,
there is cooperation.
nothing wants the best, uh, forboth people than the paramedics,
that's for sure.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (37:25):
What's your advice to us in that
situation how to prepare forthat so that we can do that if
the time comes Because obviouslyyou've had a lot of practice
learning to stay calm andgrounded in emergency
situations, but it's hard.
John Moir (37:39):
you, you know, they, they even teach us, you know, to
when the big calls come.
It's just slow your breathingdown, long breaths in, long
breaths out, and just try torelax, get the shoulders down.
And it makes a lot, bigdifference.
In fact, when I drive a car now,I still do this long, slow
(38:03):
breathing when I'm driving.
It's just, uh, um, yeah, whentraffic gets a little hyped up,
I just do that slow breathing.
And it's just like, you're sochilled.
But I suppose you also haveyears of experience, but they
teach that to us.
As well, like, as a part of ourCME continuing medical
education.
Lots of times, when it's a, youknow, we call it a Code 4 call
(38:25):
where the lights and sirens arenecessary to get traffic moving.
And, um, but, you know, peopleare on their cell phones.
I don't know how many times I'veseen people talking, driving
through the intersection.
Just as we're coming up to itand completely still don't
recognize that we're there.
They're so lost in their phonecall.
And so they talk about, youknow, don't, use your, handheld
(38:47):
devices.
It's, it's true.
There's been so many times I'veseen that.
Or texting.
And we, we followed one guy.
Who is just waving back andforth.
And, we thought he was, drivingunder the influence.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (38:58):
Mm hmm.
John Moir (38:59):
we called for police to come meet us he just happened
to pull into a gas station.
The police officer pulled in.
We pulled in.
And, uh, he said, no, I was justtexting, you know.
And so, but we thought he wascompletely under the influence.
Uh, another time, same thing.
This car was going back andforth and, I think that we knew
it was a woman and, maybe therewas a child in there.
(39:21):
but it was just the same thing,so we put our lights on.
We went up and I explained tomyself, we're, we're not police.
Uh, it's, it's not a, a criminalstop.
It's just that we saw thatyou're weaving back and forth
and I was concerned that it wasa medical emergency.
And all it was, was that thechild was misbehaving and wasn't
strapped into a seat.
We, paramedics really do caredeeply for, for your children.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (39:46):
And I would say in all of my
experiences it shows.
as I've said before, I feel,heartfelt thanks to The people
who have helped with my kiddoand and that's why I had you on
Because I don't think I thinkpeople think of their support
team in terms of who they canwhich doctor they can choose
which friends They can spendtime with But I really think of
all of those people who werethere for an emergency, and I
(40:08):
think of people like you, Ithink of people like the one man
who lives in my neighborhood andI try to just imagine like, I
know you're out there waiting tohelp if we need to and I find it
comforting and soothing.
John Moir (40:18):
So often the intimacy That's created by being
vulnerable, with others.
this is kind of the sameexperience on the job.
when you really are caring for astranger, or going into their
home and, and you can see thatthey, they really truly need
help.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (40:37):
it helps so much to hear that it's not
just, day after day, one afterthe other, that you have these
memories of these people thatstuck with you and how much you
care and that it, it affects youtoo.
There's vulnerability on bothsides.
It's not just us.
John Moir (40:48):
Oh
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (40:49):
I,
John Moir (40:49):
yeah.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (40:50):
what you said about the shared
vulnerability, um, and I waswondering if you have
observations through seeing somuch vulnerability through your
life, what you've learned peoplein, in their vulnerability.
John Moir (41:04):
I think any, anybody who, who comes in contact with
somebody being vulnerable makesit so much easier for, for us to
be vulnerable.
And, it's, it's not a weakness.
I think some people, who are alittle bit more shut down and,
carrying a lot of, a lot ofbaggage.
(41:25):
wouldn't even recognize thevulnerability in people.
And, um, it's a, it's awonderful place to be with a
stranger.
In fact, there's nothing I enjoymore than speaking with a
stranger that I have no idea.
Don't do the small talk.
Ask them about their life, youknow.
(41:46):
It could be a 15 minuteconversation.
I sat at a sandwich stand withthis fella and, I just said, do
you have any children?
And he says, yeah, I have adaughter.
I said, well, what was it likebeing a father to her?
What was she like?
And this whole story came out.
And it turned out that she hadpassed recently.
(42:08):
the, the honesty of thequestions and the, and the
curiosity about this man, hislife, and then his daughter, he
shared so much about her.
when he left, he was justtouching the ground., Being
vulnerable is a great, asset.
And bringing it back to grief,It really only comes from people
who had some experience in theirlifetime or who have had the
(42:33):
parents or relatives or peoplearound them who modeled what it
is to, work with one's grief.
And I think it just allows youto slide into that, that own,
that place of vulnerability soeasy.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (42:47):
What would you say about the ways
that you see that grief showingup for people after this type of
an experience, like after amedical emergency?
I know you're not always withyour patients, obviously after
their well again and the griefhits, but do you have any
insight on that?
What it, what it might look likewhen it arrives?
John Moir (43:05):
yeah, actually, I did a, a call.
for a lady who was, feelinganxious.
So, when we got there, thislady, brought us into her home.
And, she said, it's, not for me,it's my sister.
And I could see that there was ahospital bed at the end of the
living room.
It was empty.
and then her sister came out.
And her sister was, waspalliative.
(43:26):
And they knew her time was, wascoming.
but right now, she, she, the,the sister, our patient, was
saying, I just don't feelmyself.
I'm just feeling a little bitanxious.
so we, tried some, someexercises, you know, like
breathing, just to see if thatwould help.
cause she really didn't, lookserious at all.
we talked a little bit, got somehistory and said, Okay, well,
(43:48):
let's take you up and, and, andget you looked at anyways.
And so, she started to, look,all of a sudden got, became
weaker.
no real complaint, but, then weneeded to get her out from, from
the house, and on the way out tothe ambulance.
We realized, uh, I think she'sjust went into cardiac arrest so
we got her in the back.
She was a little bit,responsive.
(44:10):
I had her sister up front withme.
I told her, I said that, we'renot sure what's going on other
than I think that you need toprepare yourself for the worst.
And, uh, and I think that itmight be her time.
And so we, we got up there and Ithink, carried out, we started
to do CPR.
We weren't far from thehospital.
(44:32):
and so they, brought her in.
they just, uh, let the, thesister stay with her, sibling
just let her quietly pass.
And it must have been, oh,several months after that, we
got a call if we could go and,see this, meet with this lady.
(44:54):
she wanted to talk to us.
And, I'd never had a call likethat.
And, uh, so, we're taken off theboard.
And, they said, yeah, go andmeet with her.
So we got there.
We could see a pad on the table.
And the first thing we thoughtis that, she said, I just need
to know what happened.
we're thinking, is she going totry, is she going to sue
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (45:15):
Right.
John Moir (45:15):
did we do, you know?
But what she wanted, was thatthere were so many missing
pieces of what took placebetween her and her sister, with
us.
There's all these blocks thatshe has no memory whatsoever.
And she didn't even know howmany people were in the room.
So you get this tunnel vision.
(45:38):
And, uh, and she just needed tohave the complete, uh, uh,
experience.
So it's clear in your mind.
Otherwise, I think that peoplewill start putting in other
truths, and it might not be thetrue story, and it's all there's
something very negative thatdidn't happen whatsoever.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:01):
They have a need to understand what
happened,
John Moir (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so, and that's what happens like
when we get this tunnel vision,um, know, people in the street
or witness a crime or something,they'll tell, what the person
looked like.
It's, you're a psychologist, youmust be aware of some of those
studies,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:16):
Mm hmm.
John Moir (46:17):
that, very seldom do our stories actually match the
video camera,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:21):
Mm hmm.
John Moir (46:22):
uh, recordings.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:23):
Yeah, and it's, it's for those listening.
It's that, that nervous systemshift that I talk about all the
time when we go into fight orflight and our body thinks
there's danger, literally ourfield of vision narrows because
we're focused in on theperceived threat.
And so we're missing so muchinformation around us.
And you know, the blood flow iscut off to our areas of our
brain that do our higher orderthinking.
So we're, we're literally notexperiencing the world in the
(46:45):
same way.
So that, I didn't think of thatin that context though, John,
that then yes, people are goingto be missing these big pieces
of that emergency that they wentthrough.
That's so important for them toknow, both in this example that
you gave to to process.
the experience, but then alsofor us to learn from the
experience.
What, what did I do and what didthey do when they came here?
(47:05):
What did they notice that wemight not have noticed?
But at the time that would begood information for us to have
moving forward that we did nottake in because we were in fight
or flight.
John Moir (47:16):
I mean, I've seen, I've seen a lot of, kids through
different injuries, totallyunexpected.
And, I just can't put myselfinto that, that little shoes.
And, I experienced remotelyanything like that with, with my
three children.
And, I've seen it in others.
I just can't imagine what itwould be like for your people,
(47:36):
you know, who have had, reallyserious bouts of, anaphylaxis
with their, with their children.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (47:41):
And it's such a tricky thing you've seen
the worst of the worst andyou've seen many people pass
away or been with them as theydid.
And while that is a real riskfor us, it is a real possibility
that obviously is terrifying.
It's so very rare, right?
So it's that contrast of thereal threat versus, it feeling
(48:02):
like that's going to happenevery time.
And very, very rarely is thatactually the case.
Thanks to allergies being a verytreatable condition, unlike a
lot of other things.
like in my case, I've had someambulance calls, but always, we
gave the epi, and then we calledthe ambulance, luckily, you
know, I'm not tooting my ownhorn, but I had that education
and knowledge, so, most of thetime, by the time anyone arrived
(48:23):
at my house, my kiddo wascracking jokes, and, okay and
stable,
John Moir (48:28):
Yeah, it's very few and far between that the life
threatening incidents come.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (48:34):
thank you for all of the work that you did
for all of the people, that youcared for all those years.
How does it feel to know howmany lives you impacted and
saved doing that for so manyyears?
John Moir (48:45):
There's so much in the, in the, in that chain of
care, from dispatchers that giveout the calls and, maybe some
first response crews that getthere before.
We'd get there like, fire, or apolice or just a neighbor, you
know.
And so all of that contributesto a well being of a, of a
person.
I
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (49:04):
have teared up so many times during
this conversation with you andso thank you because to talk
about even other people'sexperiences and stir up our own
experiences is so emotional.
So I want to normalize that forlisteners.
If, They're having thatexperience too.
I bet a lot of people will skipthis episode, and that's okay.
But, you're just such a rightperson to talk to us about this
(49:25):
in a productive way, and thatit's okay for those feelings to
be coming up, right?
And that grief to be seen andexperienced.
John Moir (49:32):
Well, thank you for that, and thank you for your,
thoughts.
I don't know if I could do yourjob., Even in EMS, it, uh, you
know, if it's quiet, it's, it'squiet.
You know, you put your feet upand if you can get an hour of
sleep that's what we're gonnado.
Uh, but, you guys just go allday and, day in and day out, you
listen to things that peopleWant to have fixed and, all the
(49:55):
trauma that comes with it and,how badly they were treated by
family members or extendedfamily or, abused.
I mean, it just goes on and on.
And, we get it in, in bouts.
Whereas, yourself and, peoplelike yourself that, are there
hearing these, these stories,these long histories it's hard
not to be by that.
(50:17):
And, we always think that, PTSDand, trauma is, is by people who
are in the experience.
But, boy, I can't imagine howaffected, um, people like
psychologists and,psychotherapists, are caring so
much, And especially if theyhave their own trauma, it's
(50:38):
always being reminded of whatthey may have experienced in the
past or they thought they haddealt with,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (50:43):
Right.
John Moir (50:44):
so.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (50:45):
Thank you for saying that because, you
know, like me, many othertherapists end up specializing
in something that hits home forthem.
So, it is difficult.
When we're in a good spot, itfeels great to help people.
And then when we have somethingtough, it can be tough.
So, thank you for acknowledgingthat.
But, like you're saying, I hopepeople listening know we care,
too, so deeply.
You know, it's, it's aprofessional relationship, but
(51:07):
just like you really care and wethink of people and we carry
that with us as well in the sameway that you're describing that
you do.
John Moir (51:14):
yeah, yeah.
So, Bravo.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (51:17):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
It's, thank you for saying that,John.
please tell everybody where theycan find your podcast, Urban
Grief Shamans and tell themwhere they can find out about
the workshops that you andPatricia do, your grief circles.
John Moir (51:28):
Yeah.
The podcast is, urban griefshamans.com.
you can find it on any podcastplace like, Apple or, Spotify or
whatever.
It's talks a lot about grief andthat was the purpose of it.
The workshops are, are notvirtual.
They're, they're live.
And this year, if you're in theNew York State area, it's just
(51:52):
going to be over in Port There's
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (51:57):
We do have quite a few Canadian
listeners, too.
Mm hmm.
John Moir (52:00):
Yeah, it's going to, it's a, it's going to be at
Jacobs House.
It's a residential.
So three meals a day.
It starts Friday and finishes onSunday.
it's really amazing.
they can find me at, Uh,soulfulenergymedicine.
com,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (52:19):
I'll make sure I put that in the notes
would you leave people with lastthoughts on if they didn't
realize they were grieving andnow they've heard this
conversation and they realizethey have some grief to, uh,
John Moir (52:30):
I would
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (52:31):
process?
John Moir (52:32):
highly recommend, you know, getting on Amazon,
ordering a book from FrancisWeller, The Wild Edge of Sorrow.
it's it's an eye opener, andthere's, there's a lot of,
programs, like Weller has, some,video, sessions, like pre
recorded material, that's onYouTube, but start educating
yourself about it and I can'tthink of a better, mentor than,
(52:55):
for everybody to just, pick upWeller's book and, and read it.
Yeah, it's, the way he speaks isthe way he writes you'll be
amazed at what you'll discoverabout yourself.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (53:06):
Well, thank you for sharing him with
me, too, because I never wouldhave read it if it weren't for
you and Patricia there's so muchto tackle and this is such a
huge topic.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to really dive into stuff
so deeply.
It's, I think it's helpful.
Three action steps are numberone, go and listen to John's
podcast if his voice resonateswith you.
(53:27):
I know I love listening to histhoughts and his perspectives on
things, and I really think thatif you enjoy this episode that
you'll enjoy his podcast.
Again, it's Urban Grief Shamans.
It's very easy to find on anypodcast platform or
urbangriefshamans.com.
Number two.
As John recommended, findFrancis Weller's book The Wild
(53:48):
Edge of Sorrow.
I will put a link to it in thenotes.
Number three, take a moment tothink about what John mentioned
about what emergency personnelmight be looking for in your
home, in the case of emergency,john mentioned the vial of life,
which is a set of paperwork anda vial to contain all your
(54:09):
important information along witha sticker that would be placed
at the front door to indicatethat you have that.
And traditionally it's placed onthe refrigerator for them to
find..
It's easy to find atvialoflife.com or think of a
place that might make sense toyou in terms of where your or
your child's epinephrine isstored, and keeping all of that
information in the same carryingcase so that it would be all in
(54:31):
one place and with you in thecase of an emergency.
For me, knowing that I have allthat information gathered in a
place that makes sense and isreally easily accessible and
easy for anyone to find, givesme peace of mind, and I think
for you, it will too.
the content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only, andis not a substitute for
(54:54):
professional medical or mentalhealth advice, diagnosis, or
treatment.
If you have any questions aboutyour own medical experience or
mental health needs, pleaseconsult a professional.
I'm Dr.
Amanda White house.
Thanks for joining me.
And until we chat again,remember don't feed the fear.
You're entering into an apprenticeship with grief,
(00:03):
and we know nothing about it.
We don't talk about it in oursociety., The bottom drops out.
It's like you just, you fall,and you keep falling, and you
keep falling.
and we associate that feeling isalways going to be there.
And it's, it's not.
It's an ongoing process.
(00:24):
There's nothing to be healed.
you are not broken if you'regrieving deeply.
It's part of the humanexperience.
Speaker (00:34):
Welcome to the Don't Feed the Fear podcast, where we
dive into the complex world offood allergy anxiety.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amanda Whitehouse, food allergyanxiety psychologist and food
allergy mom.
Whether you're dealing withallergies yourself or supporting
someone who is, join us for anempathetic and informative
journey toward food allergy calmand confidence..
(00:57):
Welcome to the spring season ofthe Don't Feed the Fear Podcast.
It's spring here in Buffalo, butspring in Buffalo means that it
has snowed three times in thelast week.
Today's episode is beginning thespring season in true Buffalo
style by backtracking a littlebit into the winter season,.
I've asked my friend John Moirto join us.
(01:19):
Originally I had a conversationwith him in mind for the winter
season which focused on oursupport systems, and so you are
getting a taste of my supportsystem.
John is a friend of mine throughhis partner Patricia, who is
also a dear friend of mine.
She's a fellow psychotherapistand she's also the parent of a
child with a severe foodallergy.
(01:40):
I wanted to have John come on totalk with us about the part of
the support system that we don'tget to choose when there's an
emergency requiring a 9 1 1call, whoever shows up at our
door is who we get.
And I'm so thankful that overthe years that those people who
did come into my home were sokind and caring and reassuring
and capable and took such goodcare of my son and the other
(02:01):
family members in my life thathave had emergencies too.
I thought it would be so helpfulfor you as listeners to get a
peek into the mindset and theperspective of the people who do
come into our homes and into ourlives in times of emergency to
help us.
And the way that John alwaystalks about it with so much
compassion and respect for hispatients has always felt really
(02:22):
healing to me in terms of seeingmy own.
Experiences through his lens.
So I wanted to share that withall of you.
But of course we can't stopthere.
John Moir's experiences in hiscareer as a paramedic led him in
his retirement to continueexploring the lessons of grief,
loss, healing, and personalgrowth that affected him
(02:43):
throughout his own life andthrough his profession.
So he created his podcast tobring grief literacy out into
the open and into ourdiscussions.
John and Patricia do grief worknow together they hold grief
circles and workshops.
So talking with John made mequickly realize what the next
season of the podcast needed tobe.
As I sat and contemplated ifpeople were ready to hear a
(03:05):
conversation about grief.
Grief is one of the things thatwe don't talk about, that we all
have experience with and wedon't know what to do with or
how to handle.
We're not taught, we havelimited social norms for how to
navigate it and a limitedperspective of what it is.
And I think as individuals withfood allergies or parents.
(03:26):
Raising children with foodallergies, we often have a lot
of unacknowledged grief.
So welcome to the beginning of aseason where we are going to
talk about the things thatnobody wants to talk about.
And if this season is not foryou, I take no offense.
I'm amazed at how quickly theshow has grown, and I am
absolutely prepared for mydownloads to drop as I publish
(03:47):
this episode because I recognizethat some people are just not in
a place emotionally to havethese discussions.
Everyone's window of tolerancefor talking about emotionally
distressing things is differentand I have respect for you in
deciding where you're at in yourlife and whether this is content
that's right for you.
But if you do proceed withlistening, know that there may
(04:07):
be parts of the episode thatwould be triggering.
We're going to talk aboutmedical emergencies.
We're going to talk about death.
We're gonna talk about grief andloss.
So if that is for you.
I'm very excited for you to joinme in talking to my good friend
John Moir.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (04:24):
John, thank you so much for being on
Don't Feed the Fear.
John is the one who got mepodcasting and the reason that
I'm here because he has his ownpodcast and shared all of his
resources and platforms with meto make it easy for me to get
started.
So thank you for that and thankyou for coming here on the show.
John Moir (04:40):
Well, thank you for inviting me.
As I said to, uh, to you whenyou first gave me the
invitation, I was pretty excitedyou're one of our favorite,
people.
And, it's actually the firsttime I've been on, someone
else's podcast other than mine,My podcast is The Urban Grief
Shamans, and my thing is talkingabout grief and, shamanism and
how the two come together forhealing.
(05:02):
And it's not so much differentthan, in a sense, from what I
understand with the kind of workthat you're doing.
You know, mine might have just abit more of a spiritual context
to it, but it's the, still the,the grief that comes along
sometimes when we're so worried.
I would think about our childrenand, the pressures to, be a good
mother or a good father, butsomehow I think it's the mothers
(05:23):
who carry the, the burden of,of, of that.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (05:27):
that I think is originally not the
reason that I asked you to beon.
But let's start with thatbecause I think people think of
grief and they think of death,and they don't, necessarily
recognize the grief in their ownlives from, from their everyday
experiences.
And we in the allergy communityhave so much grief and loss
about, you know, the lives weimagine for our children and the
(05:48):
safety.
And I would love it if you wouldtalk about that first, as you're
mentioning this huge topic thatnobody likes to talk about and
you have a whole podcast aboutit.
So let's dive in.
John Moir (05:58):
Well, yeah, I always have to mention Francis Weller,
uh, who is a big mentor formyself and, uh, my partner.
And, he wrote this lovely book.
It's called, The Wild Edge ofSorrow, and in that, uh, he uses
this beautiful soulful language.
And it's very non clinical.
(06:18):
And I think it, uh, for me itreally touched my heart and it,
uh, gave me the, um, the ideathat, when I grow up I want to
be like Francis Weller.
To be of service in that way.
Because I was coming to the endof my, my, career as a paramedic
and, uh, retirement was, wascoming.
And, uh, it was a way to kind ofjump back in of being of service
(06:39):
to others.
And, so one of the very firstthings that Weller talks about
is everything that we love, welose.
Sometimes it's a really big lossof personal relationship.
the loss of our, our own health.
And as you mentioned, you know,the loss of our children's
health or the difficulties thatwe see our children going
(07:00):
through, that we can't providethe kind of lifestyle or the,
just the life that we experienceas, as, as our own childhood as
we went through those things.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (07:11):
I think it does affect people so
differently in such differentways and on all aspects and
that's part of the loss, right?
Like you said, my childhood waslike this.
I imagined you doing this orgoing here.
John Moir (07:22):
Yeah.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (07:23):
and so there is, you know, such a
variation.
It can affect any aspect and allaspects of our lives,
John Moir (07:29):
Yeah.
And I would think that perhaps,Amanda, one, a big one I'm just
thinking of now is that just theloss of security, can you leave
your child alone for a period oftime or, just those kinds of
concerns My kids would go outthe door and I would never.
that wouldn't be a thought atall.
You know, what's, what's goingto happen in the lunchroom or in
the classroom or some kid goingto try and play a joke and hand
(07:53):
something stupid to your child,because they know that that
might be funny in some way, butit of course isn't.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (08:00):
Right, right.
Yeah, that sense of safetythat's in the sense of control
and protection, which obviouslynone of us have, but some of us
have the benefit of the illusionof control until something like
this takes it away from us.
John Moir (08:12):
Yeah, you're so right.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (08:14):
One thing I thought I would mention the
way that I know John is throughmy dear friend, Patricia, who is
a psychotherapist friend, whichis how I initially know her.
And she does this grief workwith you now.
Um, and so you and she and I,you know, in, in what I'm
learning from you about griefand what's becoming so
pronounced to me, even though Iknew it from my training, is
(08:34):
that grief is It's how we tendto want to avoid, we tend to
want to not discuss and not seeit and how much healing there
is, in acknowledging it andexploring it and honoring it and
what I've learned from the twoof you about such a beautiful
way of doing that is such amindset shift.
Because as a therapist, I wantto make people feel better.
(08:54):
I want to say, here are someskills.
You haven't lost your child'shealth, right?
This is just an aspect of theirmedical needs, but not lost.
But really, there's so muchpower and healing available in
embracing the grief.
And I would love it if you couldshare, much more eloquently than
I can, about that and why it'svaluable.
John Moir (09:14):
what I've come to learn about, about grief is that
it's probably the, the, thequintessential emotion that we
as people, as humans, um, one,we have to go through it.
it's in our DNA to grieve.
It's like that, that grindingstone, you know, you have that,
(09:36):
that beautiful rock and then itgets turned into a diamond and
it sparkles And that's what,that's what grief does to us.
when we hit, we get hit withthat first change, uh, that,
that loss.
And I'm thinking, you know, likethe really big ones whatever it
may be, it may be a loss of a, apet or, certainly a partner.
your house, your job we woulddescribe it as an
(09:58):
apprenticeship.
You're entering into anapprenticeship with grief, and
we know nothing about it.
We don't talk about it in oursociety., The bottom drops out.
It's like you just, you fall,and you keep falling, and you
keep falling.
And, those early parts of thegrief, which is just, you know,
(10:20):
disbelief and anger and all thiskind of stuff that we try to
argue with.
it's the beginning.
And, and we associate thatfeeling is always going to be
there.
And it's, it's not.
Everybody's going to grievedifferently.
So I don't want to put our timeon it.
There's, there's some people,it's very quick.
Others, it's just, it's anongoing process.
(10:41):
It's kind of an oxymoron,because I always say, Oh, you
know, come and enjoy my griefhealing workshop.
But there's nothing to behealed.
You know, you are not broken ifyou're grieving deeply.
It's part of the humanexperience.
And you'll go through it morethan once.
when you had a few big griefs ofwhen you, you know, could have
(11:03):
lost your life or, uh, fewillnesses or accidents, um, or,
uh, even having somebody closeto you that recuperated, The
experience is is that, um, yourealize.
What you do have is much moreimportant.
I'm not talking about materialthings.
The fact that you're still hereon this, this planet.
(11:23):
You've gotten through this.
And what grief does for us, thathoning process, it allows us to
embrace compassion much more.
We become greater compassionatebeings.
We love more deeply.
we start to have a certain graceand, um, And it just allows us
(11:44):
to, see everybody differently.
You know, we make more room inour hearts for, for those who
have less.
We make more room in our heartsfor the bullies.
And it comes down to, there's noone that's better than the
others.
Everybody is beautiful, itdoesn't matter how roughed up it
is there's still great beauty tobe seen there.
(12:06):
And certainly within ourchildren who may not be so well
or not be seen as being perfectin the eyes of relatives or
other people.
They're all stunning, beautiful,beings.
But it's that, that journeythrough grief.
That, makes a difference.
And what I found for myself isthat, you get through the big
(12:26):
part.
You get through that dark, thedarkness, that Weller talks
about.
And, and that's what people arealways afraid of, that I'm never
going to come out of it.
Or they think that, Well, if Idon't hang on to that, then I
don't have any connection to theone that I loved.
And it's such a falsehood I liketo say it becomes this wonderful
(12:49):
melancholy.
Every once in a while it comesup, this longing, and then, and
then it just, Flitters away,until the next time it kind of
comes up.
What it did for me, I can, lookat my partner.
When we're shopping and I cansee her just doing something
simple is just picking up, I hada lettuce or something, but I,
(13:09):
there'd be this longing.
That's created, she's not ill.
It's part of, the process ofloving, but there's that
longing, knowing.
that our relationship is notgoing to be forever.
it could go, in a heartbeat, infive minutes from now, other
times it might be years, but,uh, eventually we will lose all
(13:31):
that we love.
But I'm thankful for thatlonging.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (13:36):
Well, I'm thankful for that description,
because we carry so much of it.
even though we've talked aboutthis before and Patricia and I
have talked about it, I never.
that experience, my, my allergymom experience in terms of, I
knew there was grief, but theway that that hones me, right?
Like you said, that, that honingprocess and every time it
(13:59):
resurfaces when something scaryhappens or, or I have that, that
rejuvenation of the grieffeeling, it also is followed by
exactly what you said.
This, this reconnection to mychild, this, this, this.
Emphasis on being able to seetheir wholeness, being able to
see his perfection in just theway that he exists and
(14:22):
cherishing that so much that Imight have the day before when I
was complacent before something,you know, scary happened and
stirred up the grief inside ofme.
So thank you for thatpersonally, because that's a new
way for me to be able toarticulate it that I didn't have
before this.
John Moir (14:40):
Yeah.
you must see the courage.
that these children possess.
Uh, I can't imagine that, you'regoing out the door with not much
armor on.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (14:51):
I say that all the time.
Allergy kids are the bravestpeople that I know.
And I don't think I give myselfenough credit, even though I can
see it in the other parents,that so are we.
Because there's our heartwalking around in the world,
outside of our bodies.
So, you're right.
We tend to not give ourselvesenough credit and one version of
that, I think, is people whomight be listening to this and
saying, well, sure, there'sgrief when there's, when there's
(15:13):
a death, right, or, oranticipating the loss of a
person.
But I think some of us wouldminimize and say, you know, it
can't be grief over somethingthis, this small.
That's not a death.
But it, but it can, I know thatit can.
And I, I wonder what you wouldsay to those people who would
kind of get into thatcomparative space of like, well,
nobody died.
(15:34):
So it's not grief that I'mexperiencing.
John Moir (15:37):
Well, look around you, when you're in a shopping
mall and you just see peopleshopping.
the ones who have to keep buyingthings, it's like a self, uh,
self soothing by having to buyand get out and get a new dress
or a new car or whatever.
When we have all these littlegriefs, what it's really doing
to us, we just push it down andpush it away.
(15:59):
But it's actually, um, when wedo that, uh, we, we kind of push
a part of ourselves away.
So with, that grief and notacknowledging it, it, we leave
parts of ourselves, you know, wedon't want to acknowledge that,
that grief.
We don't want to acknowledgethat experience.
Uh, I want to forget about thisor forget about that.
(16:20):
And, and so a little bit goes.
But it anesthetizes us to thepain.
that we are experiencing or notacknowledging.
Right?
And then we have this amnesiathat what we settle for now is
so much less.
Grief makes us small.
It's just what happens.
(16:40):
We just, we tuck her back, wetuck back in and become small.
And, uh, you know, we can't behappy.
yeah, it anesthetizes us and,uh, makes us just forget.
And so we, we have all theseother behaviors now that come in
place and, uh, we don't live thebig life.
You know, we go around.
(17:01):
just fighting off, you know, anykind of acknowledgement that
that part of us even exists.
so, yeah, just look around.
and what happens is, is that,uh, we have all these mini
griefs, as these people wouldsay, what's the big deal?
We're really sad.
And then next thing you know,we're, we're picked up and away
we go again.
(17:21):
And we think, oh, we've beatenit.
or how many, how many.
Puppies that people had over theyears and some will get a dog
almost right away when they loseone, people want to replace,
They're goldfish as quick asthey can, as opposed to allowing
the child to go through thatgrief.
we, we have to learn it fromsomeone.
(17:41):
And if we can't model it fromour parents, then who is it that
we're going to model after?
I grew up in a time when, youknow, men, uh, just weren't
allowed to cry, right?
You just can't do that.
And, uh, One of the things thatgrief has given me, I cry all
the time now.
And, uh, if I see any kind of afilm or TV thing that has, you
(18:08):
know, where there's a, breakupwith a relationship between a
parent and a child, that getsme.
That gets me.
You get those big lumps.
But I'm not afraid of thoselumps anymore.
I'm not afraid to cry in public.
And our kids can see that, andI've certainly been teaching my
kids more how to do that.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (18:30):
Will you talk about how you do that?
What do we, as parents actuallydo that you can describe to
people and action they can taketo change that and to teach that
to our kids.
John Moir (18:40):
They just have to model it.
When something bad happens, wethink that we're protecting our
children by not talking aboutit, or talking about their
feelings.
they all have their own, butthey want to know what, what are
your feelings truly.
And if we can't be honest withour kids about, I'm really upset
(19:01):
and see me cry.
You know, that, men don't cry.
You know, it's, that's, that'snot right.
You know, it's teaching, uh,that one, their daughter perhaps
that this is what she's going tohave to enforce on her kids.
You know, and then for the son,you just learn from the father
that you don't do that.
You know, or, or I'm going to beseen as not being a man, you
(19:25):
know, as we all try to modelafter our mothers and fathers.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (19:28):
Right.
And then as you said.
Then these parts of ourselvesget cut off and suppressed and
disconnected from the part, thepiece of us that's around and
functioning in the world.
Me as a psychotherapist.
we call it IFS internal familysystems.
And we also talk about parts andhow we need to.
Reintegrate.
We have to have all of the partsof us be heard and acknowledged
(19:50):
and have their needs met.
And if we're not listening towhat they are, as you said,
these parts of us get, getdisconnected and we become
smaller and smaller.
And what's left is only theparts who are trying to keep the
other parts from crying in frontof people or from feeling sad.
And we, we become thoseprotective and defensive actions
instead of our full.
(20:10):
complete selves.
John Moir (20:12):
You're kind of touching on what I would call
like the, those parts, uh, ofourselves that are, Shame.
Shame is, would be the numbertwo kind of main vector the way
grief comes to us.
I think that it's almostimpossible to get out of
childhood not being stained insome way by a sense of, of
(20:33):
shame.
And it might be something thatyour parents said or you thought
you heard it and misinterpretedit in a, in a, um, I in your own
way, and that you felt guilty.
You felt like, like, I'm not agood boy.
If I do something like this,then they're not going to love
me anymore.
And, and then there goes thetrust, and I must be a terrible.
(20:55):
we carry this, uh, this shameand so we bury it.
But we bury it so deeply that wedon't want to talk about it.
We don't want people to knowthat part about ourselves.
And so as, as the shame goes, ittakes our, our life essence with
it.
and even in EMS, uh, you wouldsee just the stuff that we're
not supposed to see.
(21:16):
You're leaving a piece ofyourself somewhere in an
outpost.
it steals our essence, our lifeessence.
And then we want to startcontrolling things.
We want to start controllingevery aspect of what we do as
people and how we love.
And certainly we become lessvulnerable because we don't
trust, I think.
(21:38):
And we don't even likeourselves.
Right?
all those parts of ourselves arescattered everywhere except
where they're supposed to be,which is, you know, in our
hearts.
And so when we look in themirror, then, I can't stand that
person, It's all signs of, of,grieving.
Dr. Amanda Whitehou (21:54):
Absolutely.
And I would love to use thistalk about shame to segue into
the other piece of things, whichyou just mentioned your role,
um, as a paramedic and an EMSfor your, your career, you know,
throughout the bulk of yourlife.
That's the reason that Iinitially thought to have you on
the show.
Um, Because, and when we weretalking about it, I was
(22:14):
explaining to you, we carry somuch shame as allergy parents.
And for me, there's no time thatit is bigger than when there has
been an emergency, or a mishap,or an accident, or a mistake
that has led to needingemergency medical intervention.
And so, there is, this range ofdifferent thoughts and
experiences that other allergyparents I know have had when we
(22:37):
have had to call.
From things like, you know, myhouse is a mess, my pajamas have
holes in them, and of coursewe're not going to hesitate to
get care for our kids, but atthe same time, why are we
feeling shame about things likethat in a moment like that,
these tiny little shamefulthings, and then of course the
big things.
underlying shame of, I messed upand now there's an emergency and
I need to call these people tocome and help my child, which
(23:00):
obviously parents listening, Idon't think you made a mistake.
things happen.
I'm not blaming you, but I'mjust talking from my personal
experience, how difficult it is.
And I've heard you talk sobeautifully, John, about your
experience in that role and whatit's like for you coming into
people's homes to help themduring those difficult times.
Most awful times of their lives.
(23:20):
I thought it would be so healingfor people to have that
perspective from you and to knowwhat you are bringing into their
homes during those worstmoments.
John Moir (23:30):
When I first started as a paramedic, I started in,
uh, 78 and, You learn from thepeople who were before you,
right?
Like there's what we call theold timers, the guys who've been
on the job way longer than whenwe're just starting out.
We're real like eager and justwant to get going and save the
world.
it took me a while to, reallyget a handle on what was going
(23:51):
on EMS it was probably the, the,the best thing I've done in my
life because it, uh, you go homeat the end of the day and, I'm
going home, but there's a fewpeople today that aren't going
to ever go home.
And, uh, I've been in, A lot ofpeople's homes, and you've seen
the affluent, you've seen thehave nots, and everything in
(24:13):
between.
Being a paramedic.
What we do is we, our job is toturn chaos into, peace and quiet
as opposed to judging.
Going into people's homes canbring, for me, a lot of joy,
because you just see howdifferent people are.
you learn so much about yourselfwhen you go into their own
(24:34):
people's homes, that's theirprivate place.
And how they, you think theylive, or how they, you think
they treat each other.
You learn so much about how, howdifferent we are as a species.
How wonderfully different thatwe are.
it reminds me of, a call that,we did and I can't remember the
(24:55):
chief complaint, maybe it was togo get her and take her down for
a medical appointment, but she'sbedridden.
And, um, we get there, and it'sone of these subsidized housing
places.
And, we go inside.
We always have to look around.
I don't know of any medic whodoesn't look around.
and try to clear our space.
(25:15):
we do come in with an eye openand just looking, and we
probably look like we'rejudging, uh, but it's not.
It's just looking around.
this was a small apartment.
And, you know, I could see thesink just full of, of dirty
dishes, the husband was there.
But in the middle of thiskitchen, and kind of going into
(25:36):
the tiny living room, was thishospital bed.
And, I'm going to get a littlechoked here, but, and this
wonderful, wonderful lady justlaying in bed.
She can't really move too much,I'm not sure if it was
Parkinson's or whatever it wasthat she had, but she needed to
be taken care of.
transported.
(25:57):
And, um, so there was all thisvisual cues going on,
stimulating my brain, like,like, you know, wondering what's
this, what's that.
And then all of a sudden, I,when I looked at her, Amanda, it
just stopped.
She was the, the epitome ofgrace.
(26:18):
laying in that bed.
And, uh, so we, did what we hadto do.
We just, you know, kind of, Gether prepared for transport and
get what we need in, into thetiny space and, got her on the,
uh, stretcher and,, packed upand then we, we left.
I was, uh, driving the, thevehicle at the time and my
partner was in the back withher.
(26:40):
And, um, my mind was thequietest.
it has ever been.
I was driving, but my mindwasn't chattering at all.
I couldn't believe thedifference.
That's why she's so memorablefor me.
Something about her had touchedme and, um, it was amazing.
so that's an example of walkinginto someone's house that's,
(27:03):
you're thinking one thing, and,uh, the experience is so
completely different.
so we don't really care what,uh, how you're dressed.
Uh, we try to protect people'sdignity, we go into a lot of,
older people's homes.
And, they'll die in their homes.
And, we get called for that.
And, we might be the only onesthere.
(27:23):
And, there's a certainsacredness that, uh, always has
touched me coming into aperson's home when they're,
they're the last ones.
And, before any of their lovedones know what has happened to
this, this person.
And, um, that always touched me.
But you go into the bedroom,we're looking around now, we'll
(27:43):
walk around the apartmentlooking for, prescription meds.
try to get a handle on why thisperson might have died, but you
see all the pictures, all the,the weddings and the, the
weddings of their children andthe weddings of their
grandchildren, perhaps.
old friends, like those oldblack and whites that are fading
on their, on their, the bedsidetables, on the walls.
(28:07):
So, that's another experiencethat I thoroughly enjoyed.
It doesn't matter, you don'thave to have a beautiful house.
You don't have to have beautifulclothes.
Um, it goes two ways.
you think as a parent that we'rejudging you, whereas, you know,
most of the time we're probablylearning from you.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (28:29):
And heightened emotion in a
different way, but there's somereciprocation there in terms of
the connection of this humanexperience that is going on,
like the way you're describingthe way you're touched by these
people and their, their, theirpresence in their lives.
For me, at least it's been justso helpful to hear you talk
about it such a compassionateway because, we don't hear
people talk about what it's liketo be in your shoes.
John Moir (28:51):
Yeah, we've had a lot of parents that have been,
brought to tears and, reallyupset and thinking the worst is,
is happening to their, theirlittle loved ones.
they're a patient as well.
there's two, there's the childand then there's the mother.
most, most crews know that andwill treat the people like that.
(29:12):
And, the first thing that, if wecan get the mother calmed down
sometimes this is getting ablanket, put them around them.
just to bring their, anxietydown is so helpful for the child
because now they're not sofearful for the mother or the
father.
and then to the point where theycan start telling us what's
going on because we rely on, onthe mother for everything.
(29:34):
The child could be looking fineto, to us and we'll certainly
assess the child.
but it's the changes that themother see, which is the big
diagnostic for us, So it's soimportant to have, parents,
mothers, to be grounded andcentered so they can help and
(29:54):
and we're part of that helpingthem to help us,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (29:58):
in my own experiences, which I've had a
handful, and they varied, butthat has been so helpful to me,
the calming presence of someonecoming in and taking the feeling
of everything is on my shouldersright now, to, Someone walking
in who, who knows more than I doabout what needs to be done.
the one first EMS call we had inthis home that we're in, the man
(30:18):
happened to share with me thathe lives in my neighborhood and
he told me where his house wasand I drive by it every day and
I'm not kidding you.
Every time I drive by thathouse, I look in there and I
just like, feel thankful for himand how he, how he did come into
that moment and, and bring thatcalm and presence to me so that
we could focus on my kiddo.
John Moir (30:35):
yeah and another thing that's helpful for for us
if Up here.
We did have a vile life programfor a while where there's a list
of all the meds and the medicalhistory Anything that would be
important like their hospitalnumbers or health card numbers,
date of birth, all that stuff,for the whole family and, have
(30:57):
that in the fridge or have itsomewhere when there is an
emergency.
And, hopefully you never have totake it out, but, if you do,
it's there and we look in thefridge,, there used to be a
program, I don't know if it'sdown in the States, you put an
emblem on your door that youcould walk in and then it tells
(31:17):
us, okay, there's medicalrecords here or something, you
know, that are going to behelpful.
And it's just so nice to haveall that because now we can just
focus.
We don't have to worry about.
my glove became my notepad, allthe scribbles and everything on
that.
And, uh, sometimes I'd have totake that off carefully so I
could refer to it later on.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (31:38):
What was that called in Canada?
You said vile?
John Moir (31:41):
Vile, uh, vile of life.
Yeah.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (31:43):
Got it.
John Moir (31:44):
Basically, it was just a form that was rolled up
and put in a, uh, a prescriptioncontainer.
And then it was just attached,uh, inside the fridge.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (31:53):
that makes so much sense and I don't
know of anything like that butI'm going to do a little digging
around, What else do you, uh,with allergy calls specifically,
is there anything else that wantparents to know that you wish we
would do or that would be morehelpful or not do?
John Moir (32:06):
yeah, access, gaining access to your home.
is a big one.
I know that, sometimes it can bejust, horrifying if it was like
a true anaphylactic, reactionthe child's having a real big
difficulty.
And, so having the doorunlocked, having it, perhaps
even cracked open.
If it's, all the snow that wehave, I don't know how many
(32:28):
times we couldn't get to thehouse because of, it's, they
just haven't cleared the, thesidewalks in days.
Um, or even, uh,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (32:36):
biggest anxieties.
We live in Buffalo, and you knowhow our weather is here, too.
And when there is a snowstorm,everyone else is like, yeah, we
don't have to dig out.
Everything's canceled.
I need a path to that roadbefore I can sleep because of
that exact reason.
John Moir (32:49):
yeah, yeah, that's always a big help.
we always look for, you know,health cards if they have them.
If not, we don't worry about itbecause, the hospital can get
that later.
And most likely the, the child'sgoing to be known at the, the
local hospital anyways.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (33:03):
Tell me if this is a bad idea.
I keep all those things, like acopy of, of that, of his
insurance card, and all of theinformation right in the pouch
with his epi.
And I've handed them, right whenthey come in the door, I've just
handed that to them along withthe used And, is that helpful or
am I
John Moir (33:19):
very, very, no, that's, that's, uh, uh, if it
was only done like that all thetime.
And, uh, It's certainly a spentcartridge, as this goes along
with the, with the child.
It's just a way of documentingthe, the meds that were given,
so to speak,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (33:35):
I've taken it to the hospital, in the
ambulance with us and asked, andnobody ever wanted it from me,
and I'm like, okay, but I readeverywhere to take it with us,
so
John Moir (33:44):
Well, it's important, especially if the child is still
having a ton of dyspnea, and,short of breath, was anything
given and what time was itgiven?
You know, those are all factorsthat are just, give us a bit of
an idea, is, is the childstabilizing?
Mm hmm.
Or is a child still gettingworse even having a load of
(34:05):
epinephrine on board?
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (34:06):
I think it's helpful, maybe someone
who's never called to, to betold, here's what might happen
if you call.
I think for someone who doesn'tknow what to expect, it might be
less anxiety provoking if youwere to describe, what, what
might we do to help.
At the house and on the way.
John Moir (34:22):
There's a couple perspectives and, I'll just
describe a typical scene.
We, we, we show up and, thedilemma for the paramedics, is
that, so often that there'd be aloved one who's just frantic.
And, and when we look at the,patient, they may not look as if
they're under that muchdistress.
(34:43):
So we have a, to try to, get ahandle on the situation and
decide what we want to do andwhere we're going to go.
We always look at the, at theparents, as the advocate for the
child.
And that's what I said, I think,earlier that, that, they're our
first line of, communication andtrying to understand what's
going on.
And regardless of the conditionof the emotional state of the
(35:05):
mother, what her story is takesprecedent.
Like, we have to pay a lot ofattention to that.
We don't know the child.
But there's sometimes, though,it's when we're trying to, to
settle things down, uh, thatreally upsets the, parent
because they think that we arenot paying enough attention or
we're not moving fast enough.
(35:27):
And the one thing that we won'tdo is typically is run., it was
like the first, my firstteaching, brand new on the, on
the tracks I got finally gotthat first call and, uh, I went
over and threw the, the, thestation doors up and I thought
they're going to come off thetrack.
And the guy was really good.
We got in there and he says, uh,You know, we we never run.
(35:48):
If you fall and and hurt andtrip and blah blah blah, then
you're no good.
So we all got to, you know, justbe safe ourselves to begin with.
um, but in the home situation,sometimes that's that just,
parents want you to move faster.
And and there's so much morethat's going through our minds
it's not that we're not havethat sense of urgency.
(36:10):
by all of that, it says there'ssomething going on.
But, uh, we just can't, we can'ttake on the, the same energy
that the parents have.
We have to bring, bring somecalmness and, and we take a look
at the child, and we take a lookat the parent, who needs the
care most right now.
And it might be, just be themother who really needs support
(36:31):
and talking, you know, quietlywith, and why we need you to be
able to tell us what's going onhere.
Can you have that moment of, of,of quiet and just focus and then
tell us your story,, so theother thing that, you know, is
always good is, is explaining tothem, what we're going to do,
what things that we need to do.
(36:52):
Make sure you bring your purse,any ID, all that kind of stuff.
And who's going to look afterthe other children in the house?
You know, bring them all in theback of the ambulance.
So you have to get a neighbor.
know, to come over and sit withthe children while we, we take
you and your child to the, tothe hospital.
(37:13):
but usually the, the, thescenario really is that, uh,
there is cooperation.
nothing wants the best, uh, forboth people than the paramedics,
that's for sure.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (37:25):
What's your advice to us in that
situation how to prepare forthat so that we can do that if
the time comes Because obviouslyyou've had a lot of practice
learning to stay calm andgrounded in emergency
situations, but it's hard.
John Moir (37:39):
you, you know, they, they even teach us, you know, to
when the big calls come.
It's just slow your breathingdown, long breaths in, long
breaths out, and just try torelax, get the shoulders down.
And it makes a lot, bigdifference.
In fact, when I drive a car now,I still do this long, slow
(38:03):
breathing when I'm driving.
It's just, uh, um, yeah, whentraffic gets a little hyped up,
I just do that slow breathing.
And it's just like, you're sochilled.
But I suppose you also haveyears of experience, but they
teach that to us.
As well, like, as a part of ourCME continuing medical
education.
Lots of times, when it's a, youknow, we call it a Code 4 call
(38:25):
where the lights and sirens arenecessary to get traffic moving.
And, um, but, you know, peopleare on their cell phones.
I don't know how many times I'veseen people talking, driving
through the intersection.
Just as we're coming up to itand completely still don't
recognize that we're there.
They're so lost in their phonecall.
And so they talk about, youknow, don't, use your, handheld
(38:47):
devices.
It's, it's true.
There's been so many times I'veseen that.
Or texting.
And we, we followed one guy.
Who is just waving back andforth.
And, we thought he was, drivingunder the influence.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (38:58):
Mm hmm.
John Moir (38:59):
we called for police to come meet us he just happened
to pull into a gas station.
The police officer pulled in.
We pulled in.
And, uh, he said, no, I was justtexting, you know.
And so, but we thought he wascompletely under the influence.
Uh, another time, same thing.
This car was going back andforth and, I think that we knew
it was a woman and, maybe therewas a child in there.
(39:21):
but it was just the same thing,so we put our lights on.
We went up and I explained tomyself, we're, we're not police.
Uh, it's, it's not a, a criminalstop.
It's just that we saw thatyou're weaving back and forth
and I was concerned that it wasa medical emergency.
And all it was, was that thechild was misbehaving and wasn't
strapped into a seat.
We, paramedics really do caredeeply for, for your children.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (39:46):
And I would say in all of my
experiences it shows.
as I've said before, I feel,heartfelt thanks to The people
who have helped with my kiddoand and that's why I had you on
Because I don't think I thinkpeople think of their support
team in terms of who they canwhich doctor they can choose
which friends They can spendtime with But I really think of
all of those people who werethere for an emergency, and I
(40:08):
think of people like you, Ithink of people like the one man
who lives in my neighborhood andI try to just imagine like, I
know you're out there waiting tohelp if we need to and I find it
comforting and soothing.
John Moir (40:18):
So often the intimacy That's created by being
vulnerable, with others.
this is kind of the sameexperience on the job.
when you really are caring for astranger, or going into their
home and, and you can see thatthey, they really truly need
help.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (40:37):
it helps so much to hear that it's not
just, day after day, one afterthe other, that you have these
memories of these people thatstuck with you and how much you
care and that it, it affects youtoo.
There's vulnerability on bothsides.
It's not just us.
John Moir (40:48):
Oh
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (40:49):
I,
John Moir (40:49):
yeah.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (40:50):
what you said about the shared
vulnerability, um, and I waswondering if you have
observations through seeing somuch vulnerability through your
life, what you've learned peoplein, in their vulnerability.
John Moir (41:04):
I think any, anybody who, who comes in contact with
somebody being vulnerable makesit so much easier for, for us to
be vulnerable.
And, it's, it's not a weakness.
I think some people, who are alittle bit more shut down and,
carrying a lot of, a lot ofbaggage.
(41:25):
wouldn't even recognize thevulnerability in people.
And, um, it's a, it's awonderful place to be with a
stranger.
In fact, there's nothing I enjoymore than speaking with a
stranger that I have no idea.
Don't do the small talk.
Ask them about their life, youknow.
(41:46):
It could be a 15 minuteconversation.
I sat at a sandwich stand withthis fella and, I just said, do
you have any children?
And he says, yeah, I have adaughter.
I said, well, what was it likebeing a father to her?
What was she like?
And this whole story came out.
And it turned out that she hadpassed recently.
(42:08):
the, the honesty of thequestions and the, and the
curiosity about this man, hislife, and then his daughter, he
shared so much about her.
when he left, he was justtouching the ground., Being
vulnerable is a great, asset.
And bringing it back to grief,It really only comes from people
who had some experience in theirlifetime or who have had the
(42:33):
parents or relatives or peoplearound them who modeled what it
is to, work with one's grief.
And I think it just allows youto slide into that, that own,
that place of vulnerability soeasy.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (42:47):
What would you say about the ways
that you see that grief showingup for people after this type of
an experience, like after amedical emergency?
I know you're not always withyour patients, obviously after
their well again and the griefhits, but do you have any
insight on that?
What it, what it might look likewhen it arrives?
John Moir (43:05):
yeah, actually, I did a, a call.
for a lady who was, feelinganxious.
So, when we got there, thislady, brought us into her home.
And, she said, it's, not for me,it's my sister.
And I could see that there was ahospital bed at the end of the
living room.
It was empty.
and then her sister came out.
And her sister was, waspalliative.
(43:26):
And they knew her time was, wascoming.
but right now, she, she, the,the sister, our patient, was
saying, I just don't feelmyself.
I'm just feeling a little bitanxious.
so we, tried some, someexercises, you know, like
breathing, just to see if thatwould help.
cause she really didn't, lookserious at all.
we talked a little bit, got somehistory and said, Okay, well,
(43:48):
let's take you up and, and, andget you looked at anyways.
And so, she started to, look,all of a sudden got, became
weaker.
no real complaint, but, then weneeded to get her out from, from
the house, and on the way out tothe ambulance.
We realized, uh, I think she'sjust went into cardiac arrest so
we got her in the back.
She was a little bit,responsive.
(44:10):
I had her sister up front withme.
I told her, I said that, we'renot sure what's going on other
than I think that you need toprepare yourself for the worst.
And, uh, and I think that itmight be her time.
And so we, we got up there and Ithink, carried out, we started
to do CPR.
We weren't far from thehospital.
(44:32):
and so they, brought her in.
they just, uh, let the, thesister stay with her, sibling
just let her quietly pass.
And it must have been, oh,several months after that, we
got a call if we could go and,see this, meet with this lady.
(44:54):
she wanted to talk to us.
And, I'd never had a call likethat.
And, uh, so, we're taken off theboard.
And, they said, yeah, go andmeet with her.
So we got there.
We could see a pad on the table.
And the first thing we thoughtis that, she said, I just need
to know what happened.
we're thinking, is she going totry, is she going to sue
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (45:15):
Right.
John Moir (45:15):
did we do, you know?
But what she wanted, was thatthere were so many missing
pieces of what took placebetween her and her sister, with
us.
There's all these blocks thatshe has no memory whatsoever.
And she didn't even know howmany people were in the room.
So you get this tunnel vision.
(45:38):
And, uh, and she just needed tohave the complete, uh, uh,
experience.
So it's clear in your mind.
Otherwise, I think that peoplewill start putting in other
truths, and it might not be thetrue story, and it's all there's
something very negative thatdidn't happen whatsoever.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:01):
They have a need to understand what
happened,
John Moir (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so, and that's what happens like
when we get this tunnel vision,um, know, people in the street
or witness a crime or something,they'll tell, what the person
looked like.
It's, you're a psychologist, youmust be aware of some of those
studies,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:16):
Mm hmm.
John Moir (46:17):
that, very seldom do our stories actually match the
video camera,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:21):
Mm hmm.
John Moir (46:22):
uh, recordings.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (46:23):
Yeah, and it's, it's for those listening.
It's that, that nervous systemshift that I talk about all the
time when we go into fight orflight and our body thinks
there's danger, literally ourfield of vision narrows because
we're focused in on theperceived threat.
And so we're missing so muchinformation around us.
And you know, the blood flow iscut off to our areas of our
brain that do our higher orderthinking.
So we're, we're literally notexperiencing the world in the
(46:45):
same way.
So that, I didn't think of thatin that context though, John,
that then yes, people are goingto be missing these big pieces
of that emergency that they wentthrough.
That's so important for them toknow, both in this example that
you gave to to process.
the experience, but then alsofor us to learn from the
experience.
What, what did I do and what didthey do when they came here?
(47:05):
What did they notice that wemight not have noticed?
But at the time that would begood information for us to have
moving forward that we did nottake in because we were in fight
or flight.
John Moir (47:16):
I mean, I've seen, I've seen a lot of, kids through
different injuries, totallyunexpected.
And, I just can't put myselfinto that, that little shoes.
And, I experienced remotelyanything like that with, with my
three children.
And, I've seen it in others.
I just can't imagine what itwould be like for your people,
(47:36):
you know, who have had, reallyserious bouts of, anaphylaxis
with their, with their children.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (47:41):
And it's such a tricky thing you've seen
the worst of the worst andyou've seen many people pass
away or been with them as theydid.
And while that is a real riskfor us, it is a real possibility
that obviously is terrifying.
It's so very rare, right?
So it's that contrast of thereal threat versus, it feeling
(48:02):
like that's going to happenevery time.
And very, very rarely is thatactually the case.
Thanks to allergies being a verytreatable condition, unlike a
lot of other things.
like in my case, I've had someambulance calls, but always, we
gave the epi, and then we calledthe ambulance, luckily, you
know, I'm not tooting my ownhorn, but I had that education
and knowledge, so, most of thetime, by the time anyone arrived
(48:23):
at my house, my kiddo wascracking jokes, and, okay and
stable,
John Moir (48:28):
Yeah, it's very few and far between that the life
threatening incidents come.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (48:34):
thank you for all of the work that you did
for all of the people, that youcared for all those years.
How does it feel to know howmany lives you impacted and
saved doing that for so manyyears?
John Moir (48:45):
There's so much in the, in the, in that chain of
care, from dispatchers that giveout the calls and, maybe some
first response crews that getthere before.
We'd get there like, fire, or apolice or just a neighbor, you
know.
And so all of that contributesto a well being of a, of a
person.
I
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (49:04):
have teared up so many times during
this conversation with you andso thank you because to talk
about even other people'sexperiences and stir up our own
experiences is so emotional.
So I want to normalize that forlisteners.
If, They're having thatexperience too.
I bet a lot of people will skipthis episode, and that's okay.
But, you're just such a rightperson to talk to us about this
(49:25):
in a productive way, and thatit's okay for those feelings to
be coming up, right?
And that grief to be seen andexperienced.
John Moir (49:32):
Well, thank you for that, and thank you for your,
thoughts.
I don't know if I could do yourjob., Even in EMS, it, uh, you
know, if it's quiet, it's, it'squiet.
You know, you put your feet upand if you can get an hour of
sleep that's what we're gonnado.
Uh, but, you guys just go allday and, day in and day out, you
listen to things that peopleWant to have fixed and, all the
(49:55):
trauma that comes with it and,how badly they were treated by
family members or extendedfamily or, abused.
I mean, it just goes on and on.
And, we get it in, in bouts.
Whereas, yourself and, peoplelike yourself that, are there
hearing these, these stories,these long histories it's hard
not to be by that.
(50:17):
And, we always think that, PTSDand, trauma is, is by people who
are in the experience.
But, boy, I can't imagine howaffected, um, people like
psychologists and,psychotherapists, are caring so
much, And especially if theyhave their own trauma, it's
(50:38):
always being reminded of whatthey may have experienced in the
past or they thought they haddealt with,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (50:43):
Right.
John Moir (50:44):
so.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (50:45):
Thank you for saying that because, you
know, like me, many othertherapists end up specializing
in something that hits home forthem.
So, it is difficult.
When we're in a good spot, itfeels great to help people.
And then when we have somethingtough, it can be tough.
So, thank you for acknowledgingthat.
But, like you're saying, I hopepeople listening know we care,
too, so deeply.
You know, it's, it's aprofessional relationship, but
(51:07):
just like you really care and wethink of people and we carry
that with us as well in the sameway that you're describing that
you do.
John Moir (51:14):
yeah, yeah.
So, Bravo.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (51:17):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
It's, thank you for saying that,John.
please tell everybody where theycan find your podcast, Urban
Grief Shamans and tell themwhere they can find out about
the workshops that you andPatricia do, your grief circles.
John Moir (51:28):
Yeah.
The podcast is, urban griefshamans.com.
you can find it on any podcastplace like, Apple or, Spotify or
whatever.
It's talks a lot about grief andthat was the purpose of it.
The workshops are, are notvirtual.
They're, they're live.
And this year, if you're in theNew York State area, it's just
(51:52):
going to be over in Port There's
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (51:57):
We do have quite a few Canadian
listeners, too.
Mm hmm.
John Moir (52:00):
Yeah, it's going to, it's a, it's going to be at
Jacobs House.
It's a residential.
So three meals a day.
It starts Friday and finishes onSunday.
it's really amazing.
they can find me at, Uh,soulfulenergymedicine.
com,
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (52:19):
I'll make sure I put that in the notes
would you leave people with lastthoughts on if they didn't
realize they were grieving andnow they've heard this
conversation and they realizethey have some grief to, uh,
John Moir (52:30):
I would
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (52:31):
process?
John Moir (52:32):
highly recommend, you know, getting on Amazon,
ordering a book from FrancisWeller, The Wild Edge of Sorrow.
it's it's an eye opener, andthere's, there's a lot of,
programs, like Weller has, some,video, sessions, like pre
recorded material, that's onYouTube, but start educating
yourself about it and I can'tthink of a better, mentor than,
(52:55):
for everybody to just, pick upWeller's book and, and read it.
Yeah, it's, the way he speaks isthe way he writes you'll be
amazed at what you'll discoverabout yourself.
Dr. Amanda Whitehouse (53:06):
Well, thank you for sharing him with
me, too, because I never wouldhave read it if it weren't for
you and Patricia there's so muchto tackle and this is such a
huge topic.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to really dive into stuff
so deeply.
It's, I think it's helpful.
Three action steps are numberone, go and listen to John's
podcast if his voice resonateswith you.
(53:27):
I know I love listening to histhoughts and his perspectives on
things, and I really think thatif you enjoy this episode that
you'll enjoy his podcast.
Again, it's Urban Grief Shamans.
It's very easy to find on anypodcast platform or
urbangriefshamans.com.
Number two.
As John recommended, findFrancis Weller's book The Wild
(53:48):
Edge of Sorrow.
I will put a link to it in thenotes.
Number three, take a moment tothink about what John mentioned
about what emergency personnelmight be looking for in your
home, in the case of emergency,john mentioned the vial of life,
which is a set of paperwork anda vial to contain all your
(54:09):
important information along witha sticker that would be placed
at the front door to indicatethat you have that.
And traditionally it's placed onthe refrigerator for them to
find..
It's easy to find atvialoflife.com or think of a
place that might make sense toyou in terms of where your or
your child's epinephrine isstored, and keeping all of that
information in the same carryingcase so that it would be all in
(54:31):
one place and with you in thecase of an emergency.
For me, knowing that I have allthat information gathered in a
place that makes sense and isreally easily accessible and
easy for anyone to find, givesme peace of mind, and I think
for you, it will too.
the content of this podcast isfor informational and
educational purposes only, andis not a substitute for
(54:54):
professional medical or mentalhealth advice, diagnosis, or
treatment.
If you have any questions aboutyour own medical experience or
mental health needs, pleaseconsult a professional.
I'm Dr.
Amanda White house.
Thanks for joining me.
And until we chat again,remember don't feed the fear.
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