April 5, 2022 • 25 mins
What’s been keeping you up at night lately?
Is it the pandemic? Has work been stressing you out lately? Or the fact your Great Aunt thinks the world is run by lizard people? Oh, or maybe it’s the fact that the ocean’s full of plastic – that seems like something you should probably be worried about, doesn’t it?
And now you’re probably not feeling great – maybe your chest is a little tighter than before.
How do you usually get over that feeling? What’s really happening in our body when anxiety takes over?
Lots of us don’t even need a reason to feel anxious: some of us are just built like that.
Turns out, humans actually evolved with this anxiety thing to help us survive as a species, and our brains learned some pretty neat ways to use fear in order to keep us alive.
But what use is it to us now? And how can we manage it, so it still serves a purpose in our modern world?
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Doomscroll Remedy is a University of Queensland podcast, produced by Deadset Studios.
Hosted by Stephen Stockwell. Produced by Grace Pashley, Krissy Miltiadou and Rachel Fountain at Deadset Studios, in partnership with consulting producer Zoe McDonald and commissioning editor Greta Usasz at The University of Queensland.
We acknowledge Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Australians and Traditional Custodians of the land on which this show was made.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephen Stockwell (00:00):
What we're talking about in this episode
contains descriptions of anxietyand panic attacks. So please do
what you need to do beforelistening, you can write the
lifeline number down 1311 14 Andkeep it handy if the episode
brings up any issues for you.
Amy Brandon (00:20):
The first time I ever experienced it, or was even
aware that I had any kind ofanxiety was a panic attack. And
that was in physics in grade 12.
And I think I'd been reallybehind in school for quite a
while. And this just kind ofmade it like very clear that I
was beyond catching up. So Iexperienced the cramping in my
(00:41):
hands, they sort of, you know,my thumbs and my fingers came
together. I remember the teacherwas asking a question, and she
asked me, and I must have had alook on my face that just, you
know, told the story because shequickly said, Oh, don't worry,
and when someone else insidetheater, if you need to go
(01:03):
outside, go outside, I went outand, and had the shortness of
breath and the really sort oftense muscles and didn't know
what was happening. And I walkedto the nurse's office. And I
think there was just like arandom visitor at the school
that walked past and saw me andI and she like was like, Oh,
(01:26):
just, you know, sit down. And soI sat on the grass and kind of
went through it there with justthis random person that passed
by, which was nice. I didn'treally have more panic attacks
like that for a while. It wassort of isolated. But yeah, it
wasn't until years later that Istarted having them like every
(01:51):
day. Yeah.
Stephen Stockwell (01:57):
A quarter of us have experienced an anxiety
condition at some point in ourlives, according to Beyond Blue.
That's one in four of us. Whichmeans if it's not you, it's
probably one of your mates, thatanxiety could be coming from
something stressful that's goingon, maybe it will kind of hang
around, it doesn't necessarilyneed to be connected to the
reality around us. It might be abase level, but it's that
(02:18):
constant scan of what's aroundyou for a threat, or it could
escalate into a full blownpanic. Or in Amy Brandon's case,
it might be both.
Amy Brandon (02:27):
I think he's experiencing general anxiety all
the time with like little justcherries of panic attack on top.
Stephen Stockwell (02:36):
I'm Stephen Stockwell. And this is Doom
scroll remedy, where we meet thepeople living through the
existential threats that keep usup at night and the people from
the University of Queenslandtrying to solve them. In this
series, we're diving into directthreats to how we live and some
things that are a little harderto pin down like anxiety. That
feeling you get when you spendtoo long thinking about
(02:56):
bushfires, and how there's justkind of plastic everywhere. It's
the thing that quite literallykeeps me up at night. Sometimes,
I can get caught up in work,trying to solve problems
worrying about how things mightgo. So in this episode, we are
magic school, busting it intothe brain and back in time to
figure out why we like this. Butfirst, I want to chat to Amy a
(03:17):
bit more because her situationgot much worse before it got
better. This is back when shewas managing a music venue.
Amy Brandon (03:26):
I was working from usually about three or four in
the afternoon to set up and thenyou know the doors would open at
eight you get your stuff on youdo your writers you have your
soundcheck, you do all that sothat's all before doors even
open and then I would wouldn'tleave until after we would
(03:47):
close. So sometimes getting homeat five or 6am. So it's about 12
hours, the anxiety would buildbefore I had to go so it would
be being at home and knowinglike you know, you look at the
clock and you'd think I've gotabout an hour and a half till I
have to be at work and it wouldjust start to creep then of just
the the dread of having to goand then yeah, it would sort of
(04:11):
work up and I would always tendto have the panic attack around
five o'clock at at the venue. Atthat point there's still not
very many people around so it'sall right now I'd go and isolate
and kind of a case of it beingyou know, the thought of
something worse than theactuality of it. So the thought
of having to go to work thethought of the doors opening the
(04:31):
thought of you know, peoplecould odd people could get too
drunk people could get in afight. Oh, like all of that was
worse beforehand. And then asthe night rolled out, it would
it would be better because itwould just pan out how it panned
out and you deal with it as itcomes. But yeah, it was
predicting it ahead of timereally made me anxious.
Stephen Stockwell (04:54):
I would have real mom question as well like
how well were you kind of eatingand sleeping?
Amy Brandon (04:58):
I was eating Get so well I would eat a family block
of chocolate and a bag ofjellies every shift I was eating
so much sugar to get through itand sleeping, not sleeping great
at the time I was in this likevery dodgy flat and had no
curtains and it was Queenslanderwith very poor installation. So
(05:22):
this is going into December uswhen it started. So yeah, it was
hot. I wasn't sleeping. Yeah,you know, when you put it all
down, right? Very obvious.
Stephen Stockwell (05:36):
How bad did it get?
Amy Brandon (05:38):
It got particularly bad in a week where we had four
international acts every nightof the week. And I think they're
all sold out. So it was knowingthat it was going to be really,
really long days really highpressure, international tour
managers like had to be tightkind of thing. And I think that
(06:00):
just was the end of it for me.
Like there was too muchpressure. I went to my GP. And I
think I was kind of looking forwhen you're a kid and you're
just feeling sick, and you go toyour parents and they say like,
Okay, it's alright, you can stayhome and you and you feel like
safe and someone's like, Oh,you're sick, I'll take care of
(06:21):
you. I think when I went to myGP, I just wanted him to like,
look at me and be like, it'sokay, you can't do it. We're
like, don't worry. And that'swhat I got. He said, You need to
go to the hospital. And I don'twant you to drive yourself
there. So I'm going to call yourparents 27 year old woman at
this point, I'm going to callyour parents and they can drive
(06:43):
you because I don't think youshould be driving your car was
how you are at the moment I wascrying and having a panic attack
at the doctor's office duringthe consultation. So I think I
presented a quite a scarypicture. I was admitted into the
hospital. Yeah, in the psychward. And they take away your
(07:06):
phone. You know, like to haveyour phone at the cycle. And so
I was sort of my boyfriend atthe time, told work that I was
at the hospital forendometriosis, which I have. And
they knew that he was sort ofcommunicating with work. And
Sarah, Amy's me sick, she's atthe hospital. And it was totally
(07:27):
fine. They just covered for me.
I wasn't there and it was fine.
Must have only been three nightsbecause as soon as I got out of
the hospital, and had a nicelittle rest, I'd talked to
psychologists that started, theystarted me or medication at that
point, got out of hospital and Iwent to work and said I'm back.
(07:49):
And they were like, oh, youknow, in your home. We thought
we thought you were out anyway.
So we've got people and I waslike, no, no, I'll do it.
Stephen Stockwell (08:01):
The next day, Amy, after all of that, you've
gone out of hospital, and youwent straight back to work. Amy
stayed in that job as well, foranother nine months, things
didn't really get any bettereither. The short break helped
for a little bit. But in theend, she realized that it really
was quite bad for her. Iimagined this moment as some
(08:24):
kind of huge relief, the mostsatisfying of deep breaths and
exhales but it was kind ofbittersweet, Amy was really
proud of what she'd accomplishedher her job. But no one at work,
really knew the toll that hadtaken on it.
Amy Brandon (08:39):
We got interviewed for the birthday of the venue
and I did the interview afterI'd already given notice or
anything. And I just you know,or you read the interview and
all the questions. I'm just likefrothing on how much like I love
it, and how good it is. And theysay like, oh, what's been the
hardest thing? And I think Ianswered like trying to get the
(09:00):
karaoke microphone out of thehands of you know, insert local
indie musician, and it's sofunny that that was what I said
at the time. And then inreality, it's like the hardest
bit was probably, you know, thedaily panic attacks, and the
breakdown in my relationship andthe hospitalization but yeah,
(09:23):
I'll just make a gag instead.
Stephen Stockwell (09:27):
I've known Amy for a while and it's always
a bit of a shock to hear whensomeone you know has been
through a rough experience likethis. But then you remember just
how common this is. Thankfullythough, her life has changed a
lot since
Amy Brandon (09:41):
I get sleep at nighttime. It just has changed
completely. I got another job. Idon't work nights. I don't have
the pressure of the financialsuccess of a venue on my
shoulders. I don't have the youknow, risk sponsibility for
people's health or well being onon my shoulders, yeah, it's
(10:06):
having less responsibility,which is really good. I don't
get anxious before I have to go
Stephen Stockwell (10:12):
to work. Do you still get anxious? Yes.
Amy Brandon (10:15):
But generally, if I treat my self right, I generally
don't get it. And when I do, I'mmuch more able to just talk
myself down and talk myselfthrough it. And yeah, don't
experience panic attacks likethat at all.
Stephen Stockwell (10:34):
So that's what anxiety and panic attacks
are like to live with. Sometimesit can feel like such an
overwhelming even alienexperience that it's hard to
imagine that your own body yourown brain even is causing it.
But I don't like to think thatour brain is deliberately
working against us. So to findout what's happening up there,
we caught up with Dr. Su Tae Soois a group leader at the
(10:57):
Queensland Brain Instituteresearching the neurobiology of
stress.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (11:02):
When we experience anxiety, it's usually
a situation that has caused usto feel vulnerable or exposed.
And a sense of stress sort ofcan come over somebody so they
feel a sense of fear. Soimmediately during that
response, adrenaline is releasedfrom the adrenal glands,
cortisol surges, and the brainhas very rapidly to trigger all
(11:26):
of that the brain has rapidlyrecognized that there's a
potential threat in the in thissituation. And that triggers the
amygdala to become activated,and that initiates this circuit
of physiological changes, andthen the whole body responds.
Stephen Stockwell (11:41):
Let's think back to Amy, when she's feeling
the cramping in her hands,
Amy Brandon (11:46):
the thing that I would always notice first was
the hand turning into likelittle crab claws, your fingers
would cramp up, and I wouldn'tbe able to like, open my palm
out flat.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (11:59):
So that can be because of the overload of
adrenaline and cortisol. So thebrain and the body is preparing
you, as I said, to escape. Butif you're standing still, you've
got all of this energy availableto you. And it's not being
utilized. So it's ultimatelytrying to get, get the body
moving and get it out of thatthreatening situation. So even
(12:19):
things like blood glucose willbecome rapidly elevated under
these conditions, that'ssomething that the body does to
fuel this escape response. Andwhen that's not being utilized,
if somebody is is sort of stuckin that situation can't escape,
there's no outlet for that. Soit really builds up inside
Amy Brandon (12:36):
the chest tightness is a big one,
Dr. Su Tae Soo (12:39):
that can often happen because of the rapid
effects that are happening onthe heart itself. So it's
rapidly changing its rate of,you know, how rapidly it
speeding, blood flow ischanging. And there's a
tightening in the chest thatcomes with changes to how people
are breathing and using oxygen.
So there's, there's a lot ofoverlap in the symptoms that
somebody has experienced inthose two moments. And it's just
(13:02):
something that I think peoplecan learn to recognize. And I
think because they're in a stateof overwhelming fear, it's
natural to sort of go to worstcase scenario as well. You know,
what might be happening here ispotentially life threatening,
because the body is looking inthat moment for something that
is life threatening.
Stephen Stockwell (13:22):
How does the body start to deal with that?
How does it start to clear outthe adrenaline the cortisol and
get itself back to normal.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (13:30):
So the key thing here is for the body to know
that it is safe. So that issomething that can be very hard
to fight mentally. So to thinkthrough that situation, it's
it's possible, but as Imentioned that, that alarm
system is on and it's shoutingso much louder than any other
sort of higher order thinkingthat somebody could do to
telling themselves and learningthat they're in a safe situation
(13:52):
can often come over time. Butmore acutely, actually,
physiologically shutting it off,is perhaps the fastest way to
shut down that response. Anddeep breathing is actually the
body's way of knowing it's safe.
So if you're in a in an actualthreatening position, or
situation, that, as I saidbefore, that breathing rate
becomes very short, shallow andrapid to really try to get as
(14:14):
much oxygen into the system. Butthat low, deep breathing,
switches off that stressresponse, the body knows that
it's in a safe situation. And itstarts to wind everything else
down. And that can feed that inBack to the brain. And the brain
can again sort of shut down thatalarm signal.
Amy Brandon (14:32):
Yeah, you just need to be able to bring your
breathing down. And once I'd hadseen like psychologists, I had
like a little mantra thing,which was the you know, I am
safe, I am calm. And that was totry and you know, it gets your
brain to realize there was noissues. So like, yeah, that
(14:52):
would be something that I usedafter I was aware of it, and
just be like, Yeah, I'm safe.
I'm calm. I'm safe. I'm calm.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (14:59):
It is Very simple. And it said, I have come
to this understanding or itmakes so much sense from that
evolutionary perspective of whatthis system is here to do. So it
really is here to help youescape from that saber toothed
Tiger. And it provides thatrapid response to it allow you
to either fight it head on orflee from it as fast as you can.
(15:20):
And then when you're safe, youcan have that deep breathing,
you can relax, you can rest, youcan recover, and all the other
systems can come back online,you've, you've essentially
survived that threat. But in ourday to day life, we're not faced
with these threats. And oftenthey're chronic, or they're
repetitive, or there's no way toreally know when you're safe,
and just switch that off. So wehave to then leverage our
(15:41):
understanding of theevolutionary basis of this
stress system, and essentiallysort of attempt to reprogram it
ourselves.
Stephen Stockwell (15:51):
I've been thinking a lot about that saber
toothed Tiger recently, it'sactually really helped me put a
lot of my problems inperspective. And while this is a
brain thing, the root cause ofanxiety can be traced back to
when that Tiger was an actualproblem that we had to worry
about.
Bill von Hippel (16:07):
Human beings are unique to the best of our
knowledge on this planet byvirtue of our capacity to live
in the future. Now, thiscapacity is super important. And
I could give you examples abouthow our chimp cousins are
hamstrung by their inability tolive in the future. So there's
enormous gains that come aboutby living in the future, the
primary one being that we cansimulate what might happen and
then plan for it. And in fact,try to adjust it try to change
(16:30):
the future to make it moresuitable for us. But there's a
cost to living in the future.
And that's envisioning all thethings that can go wrong. So my
dogs live in the present. Andthey're not the slightest bit
worried about tomorrow, becausethey're not capable of
conceiving it. We live in thefuture. And so we're very
capable of conceiving the myriadof things that could go wrong.
And of course, the mostimportant one, which we know is
(16:50):
going to go wrong, and somedaywe won't be here anymore. And so
human beings are subject toknowledge that no other animal
to the best of our knowledgehas. And that knowledge is
really scary stuff. And that'swhere anxiety comes from.
Stephen Stockwell (17:04):
Bill von Hippel is a professor of
psychology at the University ofQueensland, and you know, he's
good, because he's written awhole book on this exact topic,
our ability to imagine thefuture is outrageously useful,
it unlocks so much potential forhumans, but like all
superpowers, it carries a curse.
Bill von Hippel (17:21):
By to hamstring your ability to live in the
future, you'd be devastated. Youcouldn't even get by, especially
in the complex human world thatwe live in now. But you pay an
emotional cost. And remember,evolution is isn't focused on
how you feel it's focused ongetting used to surviving and
reproducing all other animalsthey live in today. And then
when they find a mate, they'regreat. And, and so but they
(17:41):
don't think they're they don'tsit there going on What if I
never find a mate, becausethey're not capable of thinking
that thought, right. And so wehave sources of anxiety that
they can't even imagine thosesources of anxiety, play an
important role. You know, wetend to think about emotions,
the good ones are good, and thebad ones are bad. But evolution
gave us these bad emotions,these unpleasant emotions for a
(18:02):
reason, they motivate you awayfrom doing the wrong thing. And
so when you go to a party, andyou make a complete fool of
yourself, and then you go home,you go, Oh, my God, I can't
believe I said that, or didthat. And then the next part is
coming up where you've learnedyour lesson, you won't do it
again, the cost might be anxiousfeelings, Oh, I gotta get back
together those people and theyremember what a schmuck I was or
what I did when I was drunk, orwhatever the case might be. So
(18:23):
evolution is pushing you inthese ways. We feel guilt, we
feel shame, we feelembarrassment. Those are super
important emotions. Humans whocan't experience those are
called psychopaths. So theyreally matter. This is super
important. But of course,they're not pleasant for the
person feeling it. And that'swhere we get caught up as we
want to minimize those things.
But of course, we need thosethings, we need to leverage them
to make ourselves better humans.
(18:45):
But part of the problem here isthis mismatch between the world
we live in now and the worldthat we evolved in.
Stephen Stockwell (18:50):
So anxiety is against all odds, actually quite
useful. But as I sit on the topfloor of this flash building in
a studio with microphones andgadgets all around me, it is
quite obvious that a fair bithas changed since our primary
concern was running away fromthat saber tooth tiger.
Basically, these problems gotsmaller, or actually not
(19:11):
smaller, they just sort ofchanged shape. But even then,
that doesn't make me feel anybetter. Because now I'm just
anxious about what I'm going tobe worrying about next decade.
And then the decade after that,
Bill von Hippel (19:24):
it's human nature that everything is
relative. And so as the reallyreally big problems go away by
which I mean something wants tokill me, then I don't ever think
cheese something wants to killme, but I'm bothered that
something wants to hurt me. Andthen when nothing wants to hurt
me, but it wants to hurt myfeelings. I'm bothered by that.
Right. So it and it looms justas large like I probably just as
bothered by the kid in my fourthgrade class who wants to hurt my
(19:45):
feelings as myAustralopithecines ancestor was
by the Sabretooth who wants toeat him right. So that that
relativity is part of humannature. You know, we always
experience things not as theyare at an absolute level, but
how they change from theenvironment. That was the moment
before we've evolved to do thatfor very good reason. But does
that mean we'll never be happy?
No, most humans are happy mostof the time. Now we all have
(20:07):
this base rate happiness. Andunfortunately, it's its genes
play a big role in that. Soabout half the story of how
happy you are is, is yourgenetic endowment. The other
half the story is environmentthat you could fortunate to live
in a good one or unfortunate tolive in a bad one. The key issue
there is that we also evolvedand this is what throws people
for a loop, they, most peopleare happy most of the time, but
(20:29):
most people still want to behappier.
Stephen Stockwell (20:34):
I mean, I'm happy now. I think I mean, what
is happening? No way, the mind,not the time. Let's think about
this evolutionary stuff.
Instead, we now know where thiscomes from the body and the
brain adapting together tosurvive a threat. So we just
need to figure out how we stayedin mental shape to run from that
tiger. For some people, a mentalfitness routine might involve
psychologists, medication orother strategies to manage
(20:56):
anxiety. But if we talk superbasic, the starting point could
actually be keeping your bodyclock or circadian rhythm in
check.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (21:08):
Some of our research really focuses on just
how changing the way that thestress hormones are released
over the course of the 24 hourcircadian cycle can have a
simple effect on how the body isprimed to respond to stress and
how it utilizes energy duringstress, and how it then in turn
copes under those circumstances.
And so even things like gettinga really good night's sleep is
(21:33):
really important for allowingthat physiology to know that
it's safe. So doing everythingyou can to switch off anything
that's disruptive. So whetherit's worrying thoughts, whether
it's looking at a iPad, or ascreen that's releasing blue
light, that's also triggeringthat HPA access to be online is
(21:53):
also really important. Makingsure that you're not having
coffee at the end of the day,because that's stimulating
cortisol and adrenaline to bereleased as well, there's a lot
of little things we can do toeven just the normalization of
that circadian rhythm to reallyhelp manage that or build
resilience to that anxiety,things like some people will
(22:14):
feel a lot of anxiety if theydrink a couple to have coffee in
the morning, because that'sstimulating that adrenaline
extremely stimulating thatcortisol, and that may prime
them to be on alert. And somaybe less of a trigger is
needed to activate that systemunder those conditions. And so
it is very individual. And thereare a lot of little things that
(22:34):
can be done over the course of aday to to enhance your
physiological resilience tostress.
Stephen Stockwell (22:43):
As Sue was telling me this, I really
started to think about my lifeand reflected on a number of
things that I do, which areprobably pretty unhealthy. And
when you think about Amy, whowas working through the night
and stressing when she shouldhave been sleeping, you start to
see some of those contributingfactors. When I spoke to Amy
about this, it wasn't the firsttime she thought about a lot of
she spent time withpsychologists trying to
(23:05):
understand what was causing heranxiety and found the
explanations actually prettysatisfying.
Amy Brandon (23:12):
It's it's actually really fun to become more aware
of what feels good to think whatfeels bad, think what ideas you
hold that you're not thatcognizant of like, it's, it's
actually really fun when youstart breaking it down, because
you obviously learn aboutyourself, but then you realize
that you can add or change,change it as well. Like, I've
(23:35):
found so much satisfaction inbeing able to work out what
makes me feel bad, I find itreally interesting.
Stephen Stockwell (23:45):
I really hope that this has been as helpful
for you as I found it. Maybenot. I mean, understanding why
you're feeling bad isn't exactlya cure, but maybe it's got you
thinking in a different way.
Finally, though, I am so gladthat Amy is in a good place now.
And if this is something thatyou're working through or living
with, there are plenty of peoplearound to chat to about it.
Remember, one in four of us aregoing to deal with this at some
(24:07):
point. There's also lifeline on1311 14 Who can help us well.
Make sure you follow dream scoreremedy in your favorite podcast
app. So you can join me on theMagic School Bus to solve our
biggest problems like bushfiresand climate change and why
(24:30):
people get caught up inconspiracy theories.
Molly (24:33):
I think he's looking for a reality that makes sense to
him. Maybe I think he's lookingfor something that he can
understand. Like I think thathe's maybe looking for something
that makes him feel like he hasa place has like people around
him who have the same beliefs ashim. I think he's just looking
(24:55):
for connection. Like I don'tthink that he's looking to start
a fight with me and I thinkdon't think he was Looking for
people to call them crazy?
Certainly not, you know,
Stephen Stockwell (25:06):
Doom scroll remedy is a podcast from the
University of Queensland. It'sproduced by deadset studios.
It's hosted by me. StevenStockwell, produced by Grace
bashley executive producer isRachel fountain. The sound
design is by Chrissy Milty Ottothe consulting producer is Zoe
MacDonald and the commissioningeditor is ready assess
What we're talking about in this episode
contains descriptions of anxietyand panic attacks. So please do
what you need to do beforelistening, you can write the
lifeline number down 1311 14 Andkeep it handy if the episode
brings up any issues for you.
Amy Brandon (00:20):
The first time I ever experienced it, or was even
aware that I had any kind ofanxiety was a panic attack. And
that was in physics in grade 12.
And I think I'd been reallybehind in school for quite a
while. And this just kind ofmade it like very clear that I
was beyond catching up. So Iexperienced the cramping in my
(00:41):
hands, they sort of, you know,my thumbs and my fingers came
together. I remember the teacherwas asking a question, and she
asked me, and I must have had alook on my face that just, you
know, told the story because shequickly said, Oh, don't worry,
and when someone else insidetheater, if you need to go
(01:03):
outside, go outside, I went outand, and had the shortness of
breath and the really sort oftense muscles and didn't know
what was happening. And I walkedto the nurse's office. And I
think there was just like arandom visitor at the school
that walked past and saw me andI and she like was like, Oh,
(01:26):
just, you know, sit down. And soI sat on the grass and kind of
went through it there with justthis random person that passed
by, which was nice. I didn'treally have more panic attacks
like that for a while. It wassort of isolated. But yeah, it
wasn't until years later that Istarted having them like every
(01:51):
day. Yeah.
Stephen Stockwell (01:57):
A quarter of us have experienced an anxiety
condition at some point in ourlives, according to Beyond Blue.
That's one in four of us. Whichmeans if it's not you, it's
probably one of your mates, thatanxiety could be coming from
something stressful that's goingon, maybe it will kind of hang
around, it doesn't necessarilyneed to be connected to the
reality around us. It might be abase level, but it's that
(02:18):
constant scan of what's aroundyou for a threat, or it could
escalate into a full blownpanic. Or in Amy Brandon's case,
it might be both.
Amy Brandon (02:27):
I think he's experiencing general anxiety all
the time with like little justcherries of panic attack on top.
Stephen Stockwell (02:36):
I'm Stephen Stockwell. And this is Doom
scroll remedy, where we meet thepeople living through the
existential threats that keep usup at night and the people from
the University of Queenslandtrying to solve them. In this
series, we're diving into directthreats to how we live and some
things that are a little harderto pin down like anxiety. That
feeling you get when you spendtoo long thinking about
(02:56):
bushfires, and how there's justkind of plastic everywhere. It's
the thing that quite literallykeeps me up at night. Sometimes,
I can get caught up in work,trying to solve problems
worrying about how things mightgo. So in this episode, we are
magic school, busting it intothe brain and back in time to
figure out why we like this. Butfirst, I want to chat to Amy a
(03:17):
bit more because her situationgot much worse before it got
better. This is back when shewas managing a music venue.
Amy Brandon (03:26):
I was working from usually about three or four in
the afternoon to set up and thenyou know the doors would open at
eight you get your stuff on youdo your writers you have your
soundcheck, you do all that sothat's all before doors even
open and then I would wouldn'tleave until after we would
(03:47):
close. So sometimes getting homeat five or 6am. So it's about 12
hours, the anxiety would buildbefore I had to go so it would
be being at home and knowinglike you know, you look at the
clock and you'd think I've gotabout an hour and a half till I
have to be at work and it wouldjust start to creep then of just
the the dread of having to goand then yeah, it would sort of
(04:11):
work up and I would always tendto have the panic attack around
five o'clock at at the venue. Atthat point there's still not
very many people around so it'sall right now I'd go and isolate
and kind of a case of it beingyou know, the thought of
something worse than theactuality of it. So the thought
of having to go to work thethought of the doors opening the
(04:31):
thought of you know, peoplecould odd people could get too
drunk people could get in afight. Oh, like all of that was
worse beforehand. And then asthe night rolled out, it would
it would be better because itwould just pan out how it panned
out and you deal with it as itcomes. But yeah, it was
predicting it ahead of timereally made me anxious.
Stephen Stockwell (04:54):
I would have real mom question as well like
how well were you kind of eatingand sleeping?
Amy Brandon (04:58):
I was eating Get so well I would eat a family block
of chocolate and a bag ofjellies every shift I was eating
so much sugar to get through itand sleeping, not sleeping great
at the time I was in this likevery dodgy flat and had no
curtains and it was Queenslanderwith very poor installation. So
(05:22):
this is going into December uswhen it started. So yeah, it was
hot. I wasn't sleeping. Yeah,you know, when you put it all
down, right? Very obvious.
Stephen Stockwell (05:36):
How bad did it get?
Amy Brandon (05:38):
It got particularly bad in a week where we had four
international acts every nightof the week. And I think they're
all sold out. So it was knowingthat it was going to be really,
really long days really highpressure, international tour
managers like had to be tightkind of thing. And I think that
(06:00):
just was the end of it for me.
Like there was too muchpressure. I went to my GP. And I
think I was kind of looking forwhen you're a kid and you're
just feeling sick, and you go toyour parents and they say like,
Okay, it's alright, you can stayhome and you and you feel like
safe and someone's like, Oh,you're sick, I'll take care of
(06:21):
you. I think when I went to myGP, I just wanted him to like,
look at me and be like, it'sokay, you can't do it. We're
like, don't worry. And that'swhat I got. He said, You need to
go to the hospital. And I don'twant you to drive yourself
there. So I'm going to call yourparents 27 year old woman at
this point, I'm going to callyour parents and they can drive
(06:43):
you because I don't think youshould be driving your car was
how you are at the moment I wascrying and having a panic attack
at the doctor's office duringthe consultation. So I think I
presented a quite a scarypicture. I was admitted into the
hospital. Yeah, in the psychward. And they take away your
(07:06):
phone. You know, like to haveyour phone at the cycle. And so
I was sort of my boyfriend atthe time, told work that I was
at the hospital forendometriosis, which I have. And
they knew that he was sort ofcommunicating with work. And
Sarah, Amy's me sick, she's atthe hospital. And it was totally
(07:27):
fine. They just covered for me.
I wasn't there and it was fine.
Must have only been three nightsbecause as soon as I got out of
the hospital, and had a nicelittle rest, I'd talked to
psychologists that started, theystarted me or medication at that
point, got out of hospital and Iwent to work and said I'm back.
(07:49):
And they were like, oh, youknow, in your home. We thought
we thought you were out anyway.
So we've got people and I waslike, no, no, I'll do it.
Stephen Stockwell (08:01):
The next day, Amy, after all of that, you've
gone out of hospital, and youwent straight back to work. Amy
stayed in that job as well, foranother nine months, things
didn't really get any bettereither. The short break helped
for a little bit. But in theend, she realized that it really
was quite bad for her. Iimagined this moment as some
(08:24):
kind of huge relief, the mostsatisfying of deep breaths and
exhales but it was kind ofbittersweet, Amy was really
proud of what she'd accomplishedher her job. But no one at work,
really knew the toll that hadtaken on it.
Amy Brandon (08:39):
We got interviewed for the birthday of the venue
and I did the interview afterI'd already given notice or
anything. And I just you know,or you read the interview and
all the questions. I'm just likefrothing on how much like I love
it, and how good it is. And theysay like, oh, what's been the
hardest thing? And I think Ianswered like trying to get the
(09:00):
karaoke microphone out of thehands of you know, insert local
indie musician, and it's sofunny that that was what I said
at the time. And then inreality, it's like the hardest
bit was probably, you know, thedaily panic attacks, and the
breakdown in my relationship andthe hospitalization but yeah,
(09:23):
I'll just make a gag instead.
Stephen Stockwell (09:27):
I've known Amy for a while and it's always
a bit of a shock to hear whensomeone you know has been
through a rough experience likethis. But then you remember just
how common this is. Thankfullythough, her life has changed a
lot since
Amy Brandon (09:41):
I get sleep at nighttime. It just has changed
completely. I got another job. Idon't work nights. I don't have
the pressure of the financialsuccess of a venue on my
shoulders. I don't have the youknow, risk sponsibility for
people's health or well being onon my shoulders, yeah, it's
(10:06):
having less responsibility,which is really good. I don't
get anxious before I have to go
Stephen Stockwell (10:12):
to work. Do you still get anxious? Yes.
Amy Brandon (10:15):
But generally, if I treat my self right, I generally
don't get it. And when I do, I'mmuch more able to just talk
myself down and talk myselfthrough it. And yeah, don't
experience panic attacks likethat at all.
Stephen Stockwell (10:34):
So that's what anxiety and panic attacks
are like to live with. Sometimesit can feel like such an
overwhelming even alienexperience that it's hard to
imagine that your own body yourown brain even is causing it.
But I don't like to think thatour brain is deliberately
working against us. So to findout what's happening up there,
we caught up with Dr. Su Tae Soois a group leader at the
(10:57):
Queensland Brain Instituteresearching the neurobiology of
stress.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (11:02):
When we experience anxiety, it's usually
a situation that has caused usto feel vulnerable or exposed.
And a sense of stress sort ofcan come over somebody so they
feel a sense of fear. Soimmediately during that
response, adrenaline is releasedfrom the adrenal glands,
cortisol surges, and the brainhas very rapidly to trigger all
(11:26):
of that the brain has rapidlyrecognized that there's a
potential threat in the in thissituation. And that triggers the
amygdala to become activated,and that initiates this circuit
of physiological changes, andthen the whole body responds.
Stephen Stockwell (11:41):
Let's think back to Amy, when she's feeling
the cramping in her hands,
Amy Brandon (11:46):
the thing that I would always notice first was
the hand turning into likelittle crab claws, your fingers
would cramp up, and I wouldn'tbe able to like, open my palm
out flat.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (11:59):
So that can be because of the overload of
adrenaline and cortisol. So thebrain and the body is preparing
you, as I said, to escape. Butif you're standing still, you've
got all of this energy availableto you. And it's not being
utilized. So it's ultimatelytrying to get, get the body
moving and get it out of thatthreatening situation. So even
(12:19):
things like blood glucose willbecome rapidly elevated under
these conditions, that'ssomething that the body does to
fuel this escape response. Andwhen that's not being utilized,
if somebody is is sort of stuckin that situation can't escape,
there's no outlet for that. Soit really builds up inside
Amy Brandon (12:36):
the chest tightness is a big one,
Dr. Su Tae Soo (12:39):
that can often happen because of the rapid
effects that are happening onthe heart itself. So it's
rapidly changing its rate of,you know, how rapidly it
speeding, blood flow ischanging. And there's a
tightening in the chest thatcomes with changes to how people
are breathing and using oxygen.
So there's, there's a lot ofoverlap in the symptoms that
somebody has experienced inthose two moments. And it's just
(13:02):
something that I think peoplecan learn to recognize. And I
think because they're in a stateof overwhelming fear, it's
natural to sort of go to worstcase scenario as well. You know,
what might be happening here ispotentially life threatening,
because the body is looking inthat moment for something that
is life threatening.
Stephen Stockwell (13:22):
How does the body start to deal with that?
How does it start to clear outthe adrenaline the cortisol and
get itself back to normal.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (13:30):
So the key thing here is for the body to know
that it is safe. So that issomething that can be very hard
to fight mentally. So to thinkthrough that situation, it's
it's possible, but as Imentioned that, that alarm
system is on and it's shoutingso much louder than any other
sort of higher order thinkingthat somebody could do to
telling themselves and learningthat they're in a safe situation
(13:52):
can often come over time. Butmore acutely, actually,
physiologically shutting it off,is perhaps the fastest way to
shut down that response. Anddeep breathing is actually the
body's way of knowing it's safe.
So if you're in a in an actualthreatening position, or
situation, that, as I saidbefore, that breathing rate
becomes very short, shallow andrapid to really try to get as
(14:14):
much oxygen into the system. Butthat low, deep breathing,
switches off that stressresponse, the body knows that
it's in a safe situation. And itstarts to wind everything else
down. And that can feed that inBack to the brain. And the brain
can again sort of shut down thatalarm signal.
Amy Brandon (14:32):
Yeah, you just need to be able to bring your
breathing down. And once I'd hadseen like psychologists, I had
like a little mantra thing,which was the you know, I am
safe, I am calm. And that was totry and you know, it gets your
brain to realize there was noissues. So like, yeah, that
(14:52):
would be something that I usedafter I was aware of it, and
just be like, Yeah, I'm safe.
I'm calm. I'm safe. I'm calm.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (14:59):
It is Very simple. And it said, I have come
to this understanding or itmakes so much sense from that
evolutionary perspective of whatthis system is here to do. So it
really is here to help youescape from that saber toothed
Tiger. And it provides thatrapid response to it allow you
to either fight it head on orflee from it as fast as you can.
(15:20):
And then when you're safe, youcan have that deep breathing,
you can relax, you can rest, youcan recover, and all the other
systems can come back online,you've, you've essentially
survived that threat. But in ourday to day life, we're not faced
with these threats. And oftenthey're chronic, or they're
repetitive, or there's no way toreally know when you're safe,
and just switch that off. So wehave to then leverage our
(15:41):
understanding of theevolutionary basis of this
stress system, and essentiallysort of attempt to reprogram it
ourselves.
Stephen Stockwell (15:51):
I've been thinking a lot about that saber
toothed Tiger recently, it'sactually really helped me put a
lot of my problems inperspective. And while this is a
brain thing, the root cause ofanxiety can be traced back to
when that Tiger was an actualproblem that we had to worry
about.
Bill von Hippel (16:07):
Human beings are unique to the best of our
knowledge on this planet byvirtue of our capacity to live
in the future. Now, thiscapacity is super important. And
I could give you examples abouthow our chimp cousins are
hamstrung by their inability tolive in the future. So there's
enormous gains that come aboutby living in the future, the
primary one being that we cansimulate what might happen and
then plan for it. And in fact,try to adjust it try to change
(16:30):
the future to make it moresuitable for us. But there's a
cost to living in the future.
And that's envisioning all thethings that can go wrong. So my
dogs live in the present. Andthey're not the slightest bit
worried about tomorrow, becausethey're not capable of
conceiving it. We live in thefuture. And so we're very
capable of conceiving the myriadof things that could go wrong.
And of course, the mostimportant one, which we know is
(16:50):
going to go wrong, and somedaywe won't be here anymore. And so
human beings are subject toknowledge that no other animal
to the best of our knowledgehas. And that knowledge is
really scary stuff. And that'swhere anxiety comes from.
Stephen Stockwell (17:04):
Bill von Hippel is a professor of
psychology at the University ofQueensland, and you know, he's
good, because he's written awhole book on this exact topic,
our ability to imagine thefuture is outrageously useful,
it unlocks so much potential forhumans, but like all
superpowers, it carries a curse.
Bill von Hippel (17:21):
By to hamstring your ability to live in the
future, you'd be devastated. Youcouldn't even get by, especially
in the complex human world thatwe live in now. But you pay an
emotional cost. And remember,evolution is isn't focused on
how you feel it's focused ongetting used to surviving and
reproducing all other animalsthey live in today. And then
when they find a mate, they'regreat. And, and so but they
(17:41):
don't think they're they don'tsit there going on What if I
never find a mate, becausethey're not capable of thinking
that thought, right. And so wehave sources of anxiety that
they can't even imagine thosesources of anxiety, play an
important role. You know, wetend to think about emotions,
the good ones are good, and thebad ones are bad. But evolution
gave us these bad emotions,these unpleasant emotions for a
(18:02):
reason, they motivate you awayfrom doing the wrong thing. And
so when you go to a party, andyou make a complete fool of
yourself, and then you go home,you go, Oh, my God, I can't
believe I said that, or didthat. And then the next part is
coming up where you've learnedyour lesson, you won't do it
again, the cost might be anxiousfeelings, Oh, I gotta get back
together those people and theyremember what a schmuck I was or
what I did when I was drunk, orwhatever the case might be. So
(18:23):
evolution is pushing you inthese ways. We feel guilt, we
feel shame, we feelembarrassment. Those are super
important emotions. Humans whocan't experience those are
called psychopaths. So theyreally matter. This is super
important. But of course,they're not pleasant for the
person feeling it. And that'swhere we get caught up as we
want to minimize those things.
But of course, we need thosethings, we need to leverage them
to make ourselves better humans.
(18:45):
But part of the problem here isthis mismatch between the world
we live in now and the worldthat we evolved in.
Stephen Stockwell (18:50):
So anxiety is against all odds, actually quite
useful. But as I sit on the topfloor of this flash building in
a studio with microphones andgadgets all around me, it is
quite obvious that a fair bithas changed since our primary
concern was running away fromthat saber tooth tiger.
Basically, these problems gotsmaller, or actually not
(19:11):
smaller, they just sort ofchanged shape. But even then,
that doesn't make me feel anybetter. Because now I'm just
anxious about what I'm going tobe worrying about next decade.
And then the decade after that,
Bill von Hippel (19:24):
it's human nature that everything is
relative. And so as the reallyreally big problems go away by
which I mean something wants tokill me, then I don't ever think
cheese something wants to killme, but I'm bothered that
something wants to hurt me. Andthen when nothing wants to hurt
me, but it wants to hurt myfeelings. I'm bothered by that.
Right. So it and it looms justas large like I probably just as
bothered by the kid in my fourthgrade class who wants to hurt my
(19:45):
feelings as myAustralopithecines ancestor was
by the Sabretooth who wants toeat him right. So that that
relativity is part of humannature. You know, we always
experience things not as theyare at an absolute level, but
how they change from theenvironment. That was the moment
before we've evolved to do thatfor very good reason. But does
that mean we'll never be happy?
No, most humans are happy mostof the time. Now we all have
(20:07):
this base rate happiness. Andunfortunately, it's its genes
play a big role in that. Soabout half the story of how
happy you are is, is yourgenetic endowment. The other
half the story is environmentthat you could fortunate to live
in a good one or unfortunate tolive in a bad one. The key issue
there is that we also evolvedand this is what throws people
for a loop, they, most peopleare happy most of the time, but
(20:29):
most people still want to behappier.
Stephen Stockwell (20:34):
I mean, I'm happy now. I think I mean, what
is happening? No way, the mind,not the time. Let's think about
this evolutionary stuff.
Instead, we now know where thiscomes from the body and the
brain adapting together tosurvive a threat. So we just
need to figure out how we stayedin mental shape to run from that
tiger. For some people, a mentalfitness routine might involve
psychologists, medication orother strategies to manage
(20:56):
anxiety. But if we talk superbasic, the starting point could
actually be keeping your bodyclock or circadian rhythm in
check.
Dr. Su Tae Soo (21:08):
Some of our research really focuses on just
how changing the way that thestress hormones are released
over the course of the 24 hourcircadian cycle can have a
simple effect on how the body isprimed to respond to stress and
how it utilizes energy duringstress, and how it then in turn
copes under those circumstances.
And so even things like gettinga really good night's sleep is
(21:33):
really important for allowingthat physiology to know that
it's safe. So doing everythingyou can to switch off anything
that's disruptive. So whetherit's worrying thoughts, whether
it's looking at a iPad, or ascreen that's releasing blue
light, that's also triggeringthat HPA access to be online is
(21:53):
also really important. Makingsure that you're not having
coffee at the end of the day,because that's stimulating
cortisol and adrenaline to bereleased as well, there's a lot
of little things we can do toeven just the normalization of
that circadian rhythm to reallyhelp manage that or build
resilience to that anxiety,things like some people will
(22:14):
feel a lot of anxiety if theydrink a couple to have coffee in
the morning, because that'sstimulating that adrenaline
extremely stimulating thatcortisol, and that may prime
them to be on alert. And somaybe less of a trigger is
needed to activate that systemunder those conditions. And so
it is very individual. And thereare a lot of little things that
(22:34):
can be done over the course of aday to to enhance your
physiological resilience tostress.
Stephen Stockwell (22:43):
As Sue was telling me this, I really
started to think about my lifeand reflected on a number of
things that I do, which areprobably pretty unhealthy. And
when you think about Amy, whowas working through the night
and stressing when she shouldhave been sleeping, you start to
see some of those contributingfactors. When I spoke to Amy
about this, it wasn't the firsttime she thought about a lot of
she spent time withpsychologists trying to
(23:05):
understand what was causing heranxiety and found the
explanations actually prettysatisfying.
Amy Brandon (23:12):
It's it's actually really fun to become more aware
of what feels good to think whatfeels bad, think what ideas you
hold that you're not thatcognizant of like, it's, it's
actually really fun when youstart breaking it down, because
you obviously learn aboutyourself, but then you realize
that you can add or change,change it as well. Like, I've
(23:35):
found so much satisfaction inbeing able to work out what
makes me feel bad, I find itreally interesting.
Stephen Stockwell (23:45):
I really hope that this has been as helpful
for you as I found it. Maybenot. I mean, understanding why
you're feeling bad isn't exactlya cure, but maybe it's got you
thinking in a different way.
Finally, though, I am so gladthat Amy is in a good place now.
And if this is something thatyou're working through or living
with, there are plenty of peoplearound to chat to about it.
Remember, one in four of us aregoing to deal with this at some
(24:07):
point. There's also lifeline on1311 14 Who can help us well.
Make sure you follow dream scoreremedy in your favorite podcast
app. So you can join me on theMagic School Bus to solve our
biggest problems like bushfiresand climate change and why
(24:30):
people get caught up inconspiracy theories.
Molly (24:33):
I think he's looking for a reality that makes sense to
him. Maybe I think he's lookingfor something that he can
understand. Like I think thathe's maybe looking for something
that makes him feel like he hasa place has like people around
him who have the same beliefs ashim. I think he's just looking
(24:55):
for connection. Like I don'tthink that he's looking to start
a fight with me and I thinkdon't think he was Looking for
people to call them crazy?
Certainly not, you know,
Stephen Stockwell (25:06):
Doom scroll remedy is a podcast from the
University of Queensland. It'sproduced by deadset studios.
It's hosted by me. StevenStockwell, produced by Grace
bashley executive producer isRachel fountain. The sound
design is by Chrissy Milty Ottothe consulting producer is Zoe
MacDonald and the commissioningeditor is ready assess
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