October 8, 2025 • 33 mins
If your days feel like swimming against a current you didn’t choose, you’re not imagining it. Researcher and communication coach Dr. Craig Mattson joins us to map the hidden “rip tides” of digital life—why tools that promised efficiency now burn our attention, how inboxes became group chats in disguise, and what it actually takes to protect focus without disconnecting from your team or your values.
We trace Craig’s path from small-town roots and radio work into scholarship on modern work culture, then dig into practical fixes that are humane and realistic. We look at email through Cal Newport’s “hyperactive hive mind,” share ritual-level tactics to reduce chaos, and talk about Oliver Burkeman’s reminder that constraints aren’t flaws—they’re the shape of a life. Craig brings a surprising companion to the conversation: the wisdom books of Job and Ecclesiastes. Awe, finitude, and the acceptance that most work won’t be immortalized can lighten the pressure to make every task meaningful—and still point us toward daily joy, craft, and integrity.
We also explore two slippery topics many teams miss: using AI as scaffolding (not a substitute for voice and judgment) and the power of indirect communication—those signals around the words that matter most for people with less organizational sway. If you’ve wondered whether to quit a job that feels hollow, we offer a grounded way to test redesign vs. exit, name harm clearly, and move with patience instead of panic. By the end, you’ll have a clearer map for navigating overwhelm: fewer threads, cleaner decisions, kinder culture, and a practice of waiting that makes room for better choices. If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review—what’s one change you’ll try this week?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:15):
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DOS tous show.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
His name is Dr.
Greg Madison.
He is a researcher andcommunication coach.
He is close to intersection ofspeakerly and professional and a
(00:36):
profession well.
His newsletter, The More Equit,offers insight for early career
professionals and managers.
Dr.
Craig, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
Well, I'm really pleased to be with you, Dorothy,
and I appreciate so much thework you're doing.
Uh too.
It's great to great to meet youin this format.
SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
Yes, thank you.
I I always like to open up witha icebreaker question.
And today's icebreaker questionis where did you grow up and did
that affect who you became?
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, I grew up in Adrian,Michigan, which is a rural town
on the southeast side ofMichigan.
And I grew up in a sort ofconservative Protestant home,
and my community, family, um adeep appreciation for what you
(01:37):
might think of as kind of basichuman values of caring for
people, respecting others,trying to do your best work.
And then also a lot of spiritualand religious values as well.
(02:02):
But yeah, I mean, I think myparents and my community, um,
the sort of farm community I wasin, gave me a deep appreciation
for the scriptures, whichcontinues to this day.
I certainly don't read the Biblein exactly the way I did when I
was seven years old, but I uhcontinue to carry some of the
(02:25):
values of that sort of smalltown life into my current life
and work.
SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
You wrote a book, and maybe that's one of the
reasons that piqued my interestin interviewing you.
You wrote a book called DigitalOverload, if I'm pronouncing
that correctly.
What is that book about and whatmade you write it?
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I appreciate the question.
You know, authors are all toowilling to talk about the books
that they have written.
So you have to be careful whenyou ask an author, like, tell me
about your book.
You might, you know, regret thequestion a little bit later.
The title of the book is DigitalOverwhelm, a mid-career guide
(03:11):
for coping at work.
And I wrote this book out of aseries of conversations, kind of
like the one you and I arehaving, with uh rising
professionals.
I called them quarter lifers,not midlife, right, but quarter
life.
And that includes people fromages like 20 to 40.
(03:33):
And I started interviewing themin the winter of 2020 and
continued interviewingthroughout 2022.
And the stories and the insightsof these people trying to make
sense of their life and work inthe early 2020s moved me deeply
(03:54):
and provoked me to describetheir experience as digital
overwhelm.
So that's the origin story.
It came out of conversation,storytelling.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Was it because they were too much on their computers
or on their phones or watchingtoo much TV?
And what what does the bookteach, or what does the book
talk about?
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Yes, you're asking helpful questions here.
Where does digital overwhelmcome from is a huge question.
We all feel it.
I've only met one person whosaid, no, I'm not digitally
overwhelmed, but that person wasan outlier.
Most people say, yes, I amdigitally overwhelmed all the
(04:41):
time.
But where does it come from?
Kind of imagine it.
Again, I'm from Michigan and I'mnot far from Lake Michigan.
And so I think about it in termsof the kinds of currents or
tides that you see in a body ofwater like Lake Michigan.
So if you show up at the beach,you'll sometimes see a flag that
(05:03):
indicates the tide conditions.
If it's a green flag, likeeverything's okay.
If it's a red flag, you shouldprobably watch out.
There might be rip tides, right?
So I think there might be anorange flag.
I can't remember all the flags.
Technological development in thelast, well, I'm not even going
to give that a frame, buttechnological development in our
(05:24):
time has become so accelerated.
It's so fast and it's soconstantly changeful that we
experience this technologicalchange as like a riptide.
And we're just in it.
It's carrying us somewhere.
And we're not sure if we want togo there or how to get out of it
or what.
And most of us are, you know, wejust kind of say, well, I got to
(05:47):
ride this thing out like youwould if you were stuck in a
riptide.
Um and these technologicaldevelopments can be as mundane
as having to update your phone,which is kind of annoying, or
you need to change your passwordor something, to really big
stuff, like the rapiddevelopment of large language
(06:08):
networks and artificialintelligence today.
So a lot of digital overwhelmcomes from those riptides of
tech development.
But in the middle of that,humans have feelings.
And I think of those as like anupwelling current.
An upwelling current is it comesfrom the deeps and it brings
(06:30):
with it a lot of the silt and alot of the plant and fish life.
Um, and some of it is nutrients.
But an upwelling current when itmeets the sort of
top-of-the-water currents, theshore, the long shore currents
or the rip tides, yeah, that's ahard place to be.
It's a hard place to stayafloat.
(06:51):
So that for me is the sort ofsecond factor, digital
overwhelm, is our personalemotional experience of that.
Some people experience it asreally energizing, and some
people experience it as a badkind of overwhelm.
Uh, you know, a sort of almostan experience of drowning.
(07:11):
I guess the sort of summarystatement here is digital
overwhelm is not something thatI would trace just to people's
laziness or their addictions,but to forces that are really
bigger than any of us, and thatwe have to learn how to navigate
because we can't seem to uhavoid them entirely.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
So if I'm understanding you correctly,
you're not because we're sayingabout how often we're on the
digital, you know, app ordigital phone TV itself, but
you're talking about how fastthe digital, you know, phones,
(07:56):
apps, you know, TVs arethinking.
Is that what I'm understanding?
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
Yes, that is what I'm trying to communicate.
I think there's a tendency toapproach a condition like
digital overwhelm as anindividual problem.
So you see a lot of self-helpbooks that I think these are
good books, by the way.
They're books that try to helpyou to form practices that will
resist technological umoverwhelm and exhaustion and
(08:26):
burnout and fatigue.
And those books are reallyimportant.
So uh don't hear me saying youdon't need those books.
I am just saying my book wasidentifying a different factor
at play.
And for me, the acknowledgementthat there are well-moneyed,
large corporate forces that arereally trying to harvest our
(08:49):
attention, I think that allowsus to give each other some
grace.
You know, when somebody's ontheir laptop just a little bit
too much in a particularcommittee meeting or a
classroom, I always have to kindof temper my response because A,
know that I myself have done thesame thing.
We cannot simply resist theforces of technological
(09:13):
development by sheer willpower.
That's ludicrous.
Some of the smartest andwealthiest people in the world
are working constantly to sortof capture and hold our
attention.
And to think that you couldresist that simply by willing it
is probably naive.
So I look for uh multiple waysto kind of navigate those
(09:36):
currents rather than toeliminate them.
SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
Can digital overwhelm affect us, you know,
in any adverse way, whether itbe mentally, emotionally,
physically, you know, maybe evenspiritually?
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Mm-hmm.
I I think so.
I think most people that Italked to, and you'll hear me
kind of going back again andagain to my interview data,
because that's what I feel likeI can offer here.
But most people that I talked todid experience it as an adverse
set of conditions.
I think that there weresometimes people who sort of
(10:13):
enjoyed it.
Kind of the you might enjoy thesurf at the lake on the shore.
Like sometimes it's really funwhen a big wave comes in and
sweeps you off your feet andyou're not sure which way is up.
That can be kind of joyful andfun and playful.
But too much of that, and youstart to feel like it is
adverse.
(10:33):
The researcher Jonathan Haidthas done some work on the
adverse effects of somethinglike digital overwhelm for
teenagers.
And I think there too much sortof social media engagement can
be definitely adverse onadolescent um social habits and
(10:54):
kind of self-image.
And so there's lots ofdepression recorded for
adolescents who are experiencingsomething like digital
overwhelm.
For people in my research set,uh, the people I was
interviewing, the adverseconditions, I don't know if they
ever traced solely to digitaloverwhelm.
(11:16):
It was just always a factor inthe kind of exhaustion that they
were feeling, or maybe thebewilderment they were feeling,
or the sense of, I'm not exactlysure what the rules in this
situation are for how to relateto my coworkers or how to relate
to my new manager, or that sortof thing.
(11:36):
So those were some of theadverse conditions that I noted
in talking to risingprofessionals.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
Going on to a different question, you know,
like we talked about before theinterview, you're a professor at
the school at Calvin Universityin in Michigan in um Michigan,
is that correct?
And also, you know, you're alsowell, how did you get involved
in what you do?
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, how did I get into this?
You get to a certain point inyour life and you're like, how
did I get here?
I appreciate the question,though.
I guess my last year of college,I got hired by a radio station.
I didn't have any training inradio.
I was a speech major in college,which was by and large about
(12:31):
presenting or performing in livesituations, but somebody came to
a performance of mine or apresentation of mine and said,
maybe if we train this guy,maybe he could do radio work.
So they tried me out, and Iended up staying with that for
about a decade.
So I think I developed interestin, you know, different kinds of
(12:53):
communication that were oftendigitalized.
When I started radio, there wasstill quite a lot of analog, but
the shift to the digital wasbeginning to happen.
We had these uh old-fashioned uhtechnologies called digital
audio tape players, DATs.
And oh my gosh, I don't thinkanybody uses DATs anymore.
(13:14):
But that was sort of my firstexperience of digital tech in
radio, oh, besides CDs andthings like that.
So I think you know that wassort of the seedbed of my
interest.
How do we do modern life today,technologized life today,
digitalized life today in deeplyhuman ways?
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
How do we deal with email overwhelm and what does
that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
I wish I had a short answer to that question.
So there are hacks, you know,that you can use to address
email overwhelm.
It's a real phenomenon.
Um, it's a paradoxicalphenomenon.
We developed email with a greatdeal of optimism that it would,
(14:08):
you know, make ourcommunications more efficient
and more manageable inorganizations.
And the actual reality wasexactly the opposite, that this
tool that we had hoped wouldcreate greater efficiency became
itself the source of tremendousinefficiency.
(14:29):
So I think like one thing youcan do when you're dealing with
digital overwhelm in your inboxis to take a look at some of
those productivity hacks thatare out there.
I think one especially goodauthor on this point would be
Cal Newport.
Uh, he has a book called WorldWithout Email.
(14:49):
And he tries to help you to kindof pare down your email usage
and kind of rein it in andconstrain it, not treat it like
a sort of direct messagingtechnology that requires an
always almost like ahyper-reactivity, I think is the
term he uses.
Uh he calls it the hyperactivehive mind, where we're just like
(15:13):
all pinging each other with allthese thousands of emails and
creating a lot of organizationalload.
So that's maybe onerecommendation.
Another author that I've reallylearned a lot from is Oliver
Berkman.
And his book, 4,000 Weeks, has awonderful chapter in it called
The Digital Nomad, and headdresses the kind of overwhelm
(15:36):
that you're asking about.
But I guess the last thing Iwould recommend
self-interestedly is for peopleto check out my book, Digital
Overwhelm.
I do have a chapter trying tounderstand what it is that makes
email work or not work for us.
And I also offer advice for waysto use email in more humane and
(16:01):
personable ways.
One of the distinctives of mybook is, I think, important to
the values of this show, is thatI do think with the help of the
wisdom literature of the Bible.
So you might be surprised toknow that a lot of people who
write about digital technologyrefer to the book of Job, even
(16:24):
if they're not people of faith.
There's something about thattext that really explores the
dynamics of human communicationand community in a changeful and
unmanageable world that a lot ofpeople really closely identify
with.
And my book does the same thing.
I explore the book of Job andyour inbox.
(16:48):
So those are a fewrecommendations.
Does that help, Dorsey, or raiseanother question?
SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Why do people look at the book of Job when dealing
with digital overwhelm ordealing with email overwhelm?
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
Yeah, that's a that's a that's a doozy of a
question.
So I think that people areinterested in the book.
So let me back up just a littlebit.
I'll I'll tell you that Iencountered the book of Job in
tech writers through an authornamed Megan O'Giblin.
(17:24):
Um, and she wrote a book calledGod, Human, Animal, Machine,
which I adored.
I just thought it was abeautiful book.
And in that book, she exploreslike interpretations and
misinterpretations of the bookof Job from her perspective, and
she connects it closely todigital tech and its
development.
But why is it so important to somany people who write in that
(17:48):
space?
If you remember, the book of Jobis it's sort of set up with a
kind of frame story of this verywealthy man who loses almost
everything he has, including hischildren and his own health.
And then for much of the book,there's a series of dialogues
(18:09):
between Job and his friends.
He has three or four friendsthat show up throughout the
book.
And then at the end of the book,they're all basically sitting in
silence.
They've kind of run out ofthings to say, which you're sort
of relieved about because it's along dialogue and uh frankly
it's quite repetitive.
(18:29):
But yeah, at the end, they'reall like, we have no idea what
to say to you, Job.
And Job is like, the words ofJob are ended.
You know, he doesn't haveanything more to say either.
And after a brief, you know,sort of, you know, uh monologue
from a very young whippersnapper of a guy named Elihu,
um, a whirlwind shows up, andit's a huge storm.
(18:54):
And out of the storm comes thevoice of God or the voice of the
Lord.
And what does the Lord say toJob?
Job has been asking for God totalk to him and listen to him
for chapter after chapter, andthe Lord has been silent.
So when God shows up, we're alllike, what is God gonna say to
Job?
(19:15):
And what God communicates to Jobis very curious and unexpected,
and that is he talks about thedetails, the intricacies, and
the scale of God's creation.
He talks about various sundry,strange creatures in the world.
(19:40):
And what's interesting is thathumans are not talked about in
the Lord's speech.
God doesn't talk about people.
I think there's one reference topeople in these three or four
chapters, this long monologuefrom for the Lord.
And so Job is in a certain waykind of de-centered as a human,
and he's just like put in themiddle of creation, and there's
(20:02):
this tremendous sense of awe andtruly overwhelm at the vastness
of and unmanageability of thecreation.
So I don't know.
I think that experience of aweand unmanageability is so much
the human condition, yeah, evenin technologized spaces, or
(20:25):
maybe especially intechnologized spaces, where we
feel like, oh, the world ismoving too fast, it's too big, I
don't feel like I'm at thecenter of it, and it threatens
my personal significance andmeaning.
And so I think that that storyand those conversations are
really ripe for reflection ontechnologized society.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Yeah.
We even see, you know, AIpopping up everywhere now, you
know, it on our phones, it's onour computers, it's on our on
our podcast, you know, sitesthat we can write out, you know,
an introduction to, you know, uhwe can write out, you know, what
the episode was about, and wecan have AI do that for, you
(21:11):
know, f for ourselves.
We don't have to write it outanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Do you uh do you find that thatuh how do you interact with that
that opportunity?
Do you do you resist it?
Do you kind of use it as a tool?
Do you what yeah, what's beenyour practice?
SPEAKER_02 (21:29):
I I use it as as far as the podcast part of it goes,
I use it, you know, to help me,you know, to to write it out and
you know, write out a blog orwrite out, you know, to write
out the what the episode wasabout and you know, things of
that nature, even you know, helpme think about a title of what
(21:52):
the episode could be about, andthen I can pick out a title and
if I don't want to use that, youknow, what they have, I can make
up my own.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
I mean, I do something similarto that.
I often find that, you know, I Iwrite a long prompt, right?
And uh especially for help increating, like you said,
introductions to podcasts likethis.
And I often find that it's notspeaking in a voice that sounds
like me, so I need to reallychange a lot of it, throw a lot
(22:23):
of it out.
But yeah, it does, it sort ofgets away from the problem of
the blank page.
Like it gives you something towork with to edit and revise and
amplify and extend.
Um, so yeah, it's a reallywonderful tool.
And I think in many ways, likethe people that I was talking to
aren't, you know, in my bookproject, they're not
(22:45):
particularly worried about this.
Mostly they just see it as like,you know, the uh continuation of
the story of technologicaldevelopment that they have just
you know sort of been born into.
For the rest of us who knewlife, you know, well before the
digital, uh that's you know, itis pretty disconcerting in in
(23:07):
many ways.
SPEAKER_02 (23:08):
Yeah.
Going to a different topic nowfor a minute, if my job didn't
feel meaningful, should I quit?
And I I saw that uh question aslike I need to ask that question
because I think even for myself,that's a very, you know,
meaningful, if you use a word,you know, meaningful question
(23:29):
and an interesting question tothink about.
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
Yeah, if my job doesn't feel like it has a
point, or it doesn't, if itdoesn't feel significant or
meaningful, should I just find adifferent line of work?
You're right.
I mean, that is a huge, hugequestion.
It's a question, again, thattook me to the wisdom literature
of the Bible and the book ofEcclesiastes.
What does the worker gain fromtheir toil?
(23:57):
Is the question that thephilosopher who's writing the
book of Ecclesiastes or who isspeaking and it keeps coming
back to.
What's the point of our work?
Is there any point to it?
Is it absurd?
And I think, especially indigital spaces, it's easy to
feel like maybe this is a gift,honestly, Dorsey, but it's a
(24:18):
gift that being in contact withso much of the world all the
time reminds us of howunimportant we are, how small
our lives and our work.
Um, but it can also be reallyupsetting, too.
And so, yeah, about halfwaythrough my book, I I have a
chapter on meaning and work andwhat digital overwhelm does to
(24:43):
your sense of the point of yourjob.
But your question was more,should you quit?
And you know, that there's nosort of binary answer for that.
Yes, you should quit right now,or no, you should never quit.
It's it's always going to bebased on how you're making sense
of your work and the conditionsyou find yourself in.
(25:06):
I think there are some easyanswers in the sense that like
if you're experiencing abuse atwork, or if you're experiencing,
you know, um inequity orprofound, you know, sort of
moral wrong, yeah, get out ofthere as fast as you can.
Keep your soul intact.
Um, but the harder questions arewhen the work feels like it,
(25:28):
it's it's just like that's justa thing I'm doing, and I'm not
sure if there's muchsignificance in it, much meaning
in it.
So in the book of Ecclesiastes,the way that this is approached,
the teacher sort of agrees withyou and says, yeah, your work is
not gonna last, your work isvery small, and it will quickly
(25:50):
be forgotten.
It will probably be picked up bypeople who don't share the
commitments you do, and they'regonna do something else with it.
And so, yeah, that's all true.
But still, try to enjoy it.
That's the refrain that keepscoming through in the book of
Ecclesiastes.
So I guess, you know, as much asyou can, try to enjoy the work
(26:13):
that is in front of you.
If that becomes impossible andit just remains impossible, then
I think, yeah, I think it wouldbe wise to look for another line
of work where you can find somejoy.
I'll just add one more thing,and that is that most people in
the world don't do work thatallows them to really feel
(26:33):
fulfilled and to feel a deepsense of significance.
Most people who've ever liveddon't feel that their work had
this kind of deep satisfactionto it.
For most people in the historyof human life, it's just been
toil, it's just been labor, it'sjust a thing you gotta do.
And it's in those conditions, Ithink, that the philosopher in
(26:53):
the book of Ecclesiastes issaying, as much as you can, work
hard at it and enjoy it.
So that's my sort of attempt toanswer your your really, really
good question.
What are you thinking after I'vesaid that?
SPEAKER_02 (27:08):
I agree, I agree with you.
I agree with you that you know,at there are times that
depending on the situation, likeyou said, maybe it's a more
situation that, you know, thecompany's doing, people at work
are doing that, that you shouldget out of it and just run away
from it as as quickly as youcan.
(27:30):
But like you said too, whathelps me is to try and enjoy the
work that you're doing as muchas you can.
You know, even though you maynot like it, you may not, you
know, enjoy it as much, but tryto enjoy it as much as you as
much as you can.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Yeah.
I think that's right.
I think that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:56):
One last question.
What role should an indirectcommunication play in everyday
work and life?
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
I think this was another sort of finding in my my
research and reflection aboutthe research.
It's the indirect communication.
Matters every bit as much asdirect communication.
So think about directcommunication, the most
elemental form of communication.
You have a sender, you have areceiver, and you know, the
(28:26):
sender transmits a message tothe receiver.
And uh it's like when I was akid and I played with a tin can
with a string to another tincan, and you know, we'd have
like 50 feet between me and theother person, and we're both
holding a tin can, and you know,I say something into the tin can
(28:48):
and they hear it on their end.
That's direct communication.
And it's really important.
It's important to do that well.
But at the same time, indirectcommunication is all the stuff
we do kind of around that directcommunication.
And a lot of that is relational,a lot of that is emotional, a
(29:10):
lot of that is embodied.
It's in our gestures, it's inour posture, it's in our
nonverbal communication.
And sometimes, especially if youdon't hold a lot of power in
your organization, indirectcommunication is all you got.
I often tell a story of one ofmy interviewees who was a
Haitian American, and she wasworking in a nonprofit, and they
(29:35):
were doing some training on umequity in their company, and
they were watching a video, andit was like a workshop sort of
thing.
And because she was a blackwoman, she experienced the video
in a different way than herwhite co-workers did, and it
made her weep.
And for them, it was just like,oh, this is another sort of HR
(29:55):
workshop that we're doing.
And um she, you know, she had toturn her camera off and kind of
get herself together because shewas crying so much.
And when she came back on, uhshe adopted what she called the
face, and this was a facialexpression that.
That allowed her to kind ofcontain her emotion, but also to
(30:18):
kind of set up an appropriatedistance from her colleagues who
were really kind of oblivious towhat she was feeling.
And that's a form of indirectcommunication ways.
But yeah, I think especiallypeople who don't have a lot of
sway in their organizations,that indirect communication may
be the most important kind ofcommunication.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Yeah.
Where can people get your bookand you know learn more about
you and even your newsletterthat you have?
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Thank you.
I appreciate that, Dorsey.
The easiest way to get a hold ofmy work is to go to my website,
The Mode Switch.
So that's three words, but allput together, themode
switch.com.
And my newsletter is called TheMode Switch.
And it explores work culture inmuch in the way that you and I
(31:15):
have been talking.
So if you have listeners who arefeeling a little bit confused or
bewildered or frustrated withtheir organizational cultures
and the companies that they'reemployed by, my newsletter might
help you to cope a little betterwith those conditions.
I take up a different questionevery week.
If they're interested in mybook, they can also find that on
themodeswitch.com.
(31:37):
But they can also just look forit on Amazon if you just search
for the book Digital Overwhelm.
It'll pop right up.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Okay.
Sounds good.
Well, Dr.
Craig, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
My pleasure, for sure.
It was great to meet you,Dorsey, and I appreciate the
work that you're doing with somany different guests.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Thank you.
And one last uh thing.
Would you give my audience aword of encouragement or word of
knowledge about what wediscussed today?
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
I'd be pleased to.
I think one of the for me, thekind of words of wisdom I try to
keep in mind is that digitaloverwhelm is something that
requires patience with ourselvesand with others.
So as you feel digitaloverwhelm, the first impulse is
(32:32):
to try to avoid it or to runaway from it, to flee it, or
maybe to combat it in some overtway.
But I think that, you know, theword of scripture again and
again is wait.
And I think when you feel thatsense of technological
exhaustion settling over you,uh, when you, as one of my
colleagues put it the other day,commit digital overwhelm, you
(32:55):
need to sit quietly and wait.
I think it will become a littlebit more navigable as you do
that.
And then also sometimes you haveto wait for others who are also
similarly overwhelmed.
So that's a word of grace andwisdom that I try to live out.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Yeah.
Well, guys and girls, thank youso much for coming on the show
today and listening and beingencouraged and hopefully a
little inspired.
And please go and like Dr.
Greg's information and uh book.
And until next time, God bless.
Bye bye.
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DOS tous show.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
His name is Dr.
Greg Madison.
He is a researcher andcommunication coach.
He is close to intersection ofspeakerly and professional and a
(00:36):
profession well.
His newsletter, The More Equit,offers insight for early career
professionals and managers.
Dr.
Craig, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
Well, I'm really pleased to be with you, Dorothy,
and I appreciate so much thework you're doing.
Uh too.
It's great to great to meet youin this format.
SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
Yes, thank you.
I I always like to open up witha icebreaker question.
And today's icebreaker questionis where did you grow up and did
that affect who you became?
SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Mm-hmm.
Yes, I grew up in Adrian,Michigan, which is a rural town
on the southeast side ofMichigan.
And I grew up in a sort ofconservative Protestant home,
and my community, family, um adeep appreciation for what you
(01:37):
might think of as kind of basichuman values of caring for
people, respecting others,trying to do your best work.
And then also a lot of spiritualand religious values as well.
(02:02):
But yeah, I mean, I think myparents and my community, um,
the sort of farm community I wasin, gave me a deep appreciation
for the scriptures, whichcontinues to this day.
I certainly don't read the Biblein exactly the way I did when I
was seven years old, but I uhcontinue to carry some of the
(02:25):
values of that sort of smalltown life into my current life
and work.
SPEAKER_02 (02:32):
You wrote a book, and maybe that's one of the
reasons that piqued my interestin interviewing you.
You wrote a book called DigitalOverload, if I'm pronouncing
that correctly.
What is that book about and whatmade you write it?
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I appreciate the question.
You know, authors are all toowilling to talk about the books
that they have written.
So you have to be careful whenyou ask an author, like, tell me
about your book.
You might, you know, regret thequestion a little bit later.
The title of the book is DigitalOverwhelm, a mid-career guide
(03:11):
for coping at work.
And I wrote this book out of aseries of conversations, kind of
like the one you and I arehaving, with uh rising
professionals.
I called them quarter lifers,not midlife, right, but quarter
life.
And that includes people fromages like 20 to 40.
(03:33):
And I started interviewing themin the winter of 2020 and
continued interviewingthroughout 2022.
And the stories and the insightsof these people trying to make
sense of their life and work inthe early 2020s moved me deeply
(03:54):
and provoked me to describetheir experience as digital
overwhelm.
So that's the origin story.
It came out of conversation,storytelling.
SPEAKER_02 (04:06):
Was it because they were too much on their computers
or on their phones or watchingtoo much TV?
And what what does the bookteach, or what does the book
talk about?
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
Yes, you're asking helpful questions here.
Where does digital overwhelmcome from is a huge question.
We all feel it.
I've only met one person whosaid, no, I'm not digitally
overwhelmed, but that person wasan outlier.
Most people say, yes, I amdigitally overwhelmed all the
(04:41):
time.
But where does it come from?
Kind of imagine it.
Again, I'm from Michigan and I'mnot far from Lake Michigan.
And so I think about it in termsof the kinds of currents or
tides that you see in a body ofwater like Lake Michigan.
So if you show up at the beach,you'll sometimes see a flag that
(05:03):
indicates the tide conditions.
If it's a green flag, likeeverything's okay.
If it's a red flag, you shouldprobably watch out.
There might be rip tides, right?
So I think there might be anorange flag.
I can't remember all the flags.
Technological development in thelast, well, I'm not even going
to give that a frame, buttechnological development in our
(05:24):
time has become so accelerated.
It's so fast and it's soconstantly changeful that we
experience this technologicalchange as like a riptide.
And we're just in it.
It's carrying us somewhere.
And we're not sure if we want togo there or how to get out of it
or what.
And most of us are, you know, wejust kind of say, well, I got to
(05:47):
ride this thing out like youwould if you were stuck in a
riptide.
Um and these technologicaldevelopments can be as mundane
as having to update your phone,which is kind of annoying, or
you need to change your passwordor something, to really big
stuff, like the rapiddevelopment of large language
(06:08):
networks and artificialintelligence today.
So a lot of digital overwhelmcomes from those riptides of
tech development.
But in the middle of that,humans have feelings.
And I think of those as like anupwelling current.
An upwelling current is it comesfrom the deeps and it brings
(06:30):
with it a lot of the silt and alot of the plant and fish life.
Um, and some of it is nutrients.
But an upwelling current when itmeets the sort of
top-of-the-water currents, theshore, the long shore currents
or the rip tides, yeah, that's ahard place to be.
It's a hard place to stayafloat.
(06:51):
So that for me is the sort ofsecond factor, digital
overwhelm, is our personalemotional experience of that.
Some people experience it asreally energizing, and some
people experience it as a badkind of overwhelm.
Uh, you know, a sort of almostan experience of drowning.
(07:11):
I guess the sort of summarystatement here is digital
overwhelm is not something thatI would trace just to people's
laziness or their addictions,but to forces that are really
bigger than any of us, and thatwe have to learn how to navigate
because we can't seem to uhavoid them entirely.
SPEAKER_02 (07:35):
So if I'm understanding you correctly,
you're not because we're sayingabout how often we're on the
digital, you know, app ordigital phone TV itself, but
you're talking about how fastthe digital, you know, phones,
(07:56):
apps, you know, TVs arethinking.
Is that what I'm understanding?
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
Yes, that is what I'm trying to communicate.
I think there's a tendency toapproach a condition like
digital overwhelm as anindividual problem.
So you see a lot of self-helpbooks that I think these are
good books, by the way.
They're books that try to helpyou to form practices that will
resist technological umoverwhelm and exhaustion and
(08:26):
burnout and fatigue.
And those books are reallyimportant.
So uh don't hear me saying youdon't need those books.
I am just saying my book wasidentifying a different factor
at play.
And for me, the acknowledgementthat there are well-moneyed,
large corporate forces that arereally trying to harvest our
(08:49):
attention, I think that allowsus to give each other some
grace.
You know, when somebody's ontheir laptop just a little bit
too much in a particularcommittee meeting or a
classroom, I always have to kindof temper my response because A,
know that I myself have done thesame thing.
We cannot simply resist theforces of technological
(09:13):
development by sheer willpower.
That's ludicrous.
Some of the smartest andwealthiest people in the world
are working constantly to sortof capture and hold our
attention.
And to think that you couldresist that simply by willing it
is probably naive.
So I look for uh multiple waysto kind of navigate those
(09:36):
currents rather than toeliminate them.
SPEAKER_02 (09:39):
Can digital overwhelm affect us, you know,
in any adverse way, whether itbe mentally, emotionally,
physically, you know, maybe evenspiritually?
SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Mm-hmm.
I I think so.
I think most people that Italked to, and you'll hear me
kind of going back again andagain to my interview data,
because that's what I feel likeI can offer here.
But most people that I talked todid experience it as an adverse
set of conditions.
I think that there weresometimes people who sort of
(10:13):
enjoyed it.
Kind of the you might enjoy thesurf at the lake on the shore.
Like sometimes it's really funwhen a big wave comes in and
sweeps you off your feet andyou're not sure which way is up.
That can be kind of joyful andfun and playful.
But too much of that, and youstart to feel like it is
adverse.
(10:33):
The researcher Jonathan Haidthas done some work on the
adverse effects of somethinglike digital overwhelm for
teenagers.
And I think there too much sortof social media engagement can
be definitely adverse onadolescent um social habits and
(10:54):
kind of self-image.
And so there's lots ofdepression recorded for
adolescents who are experiencingsomething like digital
overwhelm.
For people in my research set,uh, the people I was
interviewing, the adverseconditions, I don't know if they
ever traced solely to digitaloverwhelm.
(11:16):
It was just always a factor inthe kind of exhaustion that they
were feeling, or maybe thebewilderment they were feeling,
or the sense of, I'm not exactlysure what the rules in this
situation are for how to relateto my coworkers or how to relate
to my new manager, or that sortof thing.
(11:36):
So those were some of theadverse conditions that I noted
in talking to risingprofessionals.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
Going on to a different question, you know,
like we talked about before theinterview, you're a professor at
the school at Calvin Universityin in Michigan in um Michigan,
is that correct?
And also, you know, you're alsowell, how did you get involved
in what you do?
SPEAKER_01 (12:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, how did I get into this?
You get to a certain point inyour life and you're like, how
did I get here?
I appreciate the question,though.
I guess my last year of college,I got hired by a radio station.
I didn't have any training inradio.
I was a speech major in college,which was by and large about
(12:31):
presenting or performing in livesituations, but somebody came to
a performance of mine or apresentation of mine and said,
maybe if we train this guy,maybe he could do radio work.
So they tried me out, and Iended up staying with that for
about a decade.
So I think I developed interestin, you know, different kinds of
(12:53):
communication that were oftendigitalized.
When I started radio, there wasstill quite a lot of analog, but
the shift to the digital wasbeginning to happen.
We had these uh old-fashioned uhtechnologies called digital
audio tape players, DATs.
And oh my gosh, I don't thinkanybody uses DATs anymore.
(13:14):
But that was sort of my firstexperience of digital tech in
radio, oh, besides CDs andthings like that.
So I think you know that wassort of the seedbed of my
interest.
How do we do modern life today,technologized life today,
digitalized life today in deeplyhuman ways?
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
How do we deal with email overwhelm and what does
that look like?
SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
I wish I had a short answer to that question.
So there are hacks, you know,that you can use to address
email overwhelm.
It's a real phenomenon.
Um, it's a paradoxicalphenomenon.
We developed email with a greatdeal of optimism that it would,
(14:08):
you know, make ourcommunications more efficient
and more manageable inorganizations.
And the actual reality wasexactly the opposite, that this
tool that we had hoped wouldcreate greater efficiency became
itself the source of tremendousinefficiency.
(14:29):
So I think like one thing youcan do when you're dealing with
digital overwhelm in your inboxis to take a look at some of
those productivity hacks thatare out there.
I think one especially goodauthor on this point would be
Cal Newport.
Uh, he has a book called WorldWithout Email.
(14:49):
And he tries to help you to kindof pare down your email usage
and kind of rein it in andconstrain it, not treat it like
a sort of direct messagingtechnology that requires an
always almost like ahyper-reactivity, I think is the
term he uses.
Uh he calls it the hyperactivehive mind, where we're just like
(15:13):
all pinging each other with allthese thousands of emails and
creating a lot of organizationalload.
So that's maybe onerecommendation.
Another author that I've reallylearned a lot from is Oliver
Berkman.
And his book, 4,000 Weeks, has awonderful chapter in it called
The Digital Nomad, and headdresses the kind of overwhelm
(15:36):
that you're asking about.
But I guess the last thing Iwould recommend
self-interestedly is for peopleto check out my book, Digital
Overwhelm.
I do have a chapter trying tounderstand what it is that makes
email work or not work for us.
And I also offer advice for waysto use email in more humane and
(16:01):
personable ways.
One of the distinctives of mybook is, I think, important to
the values of this show, is thatI do think with the help of the
wisdom literature of the Bible.
So you might be surprised toknow that a lot of people who
write about digital technologyrefer to the book of Job, even
(16:24):
if they're not people of faith.
There's something about thattext that really explores the
dynamics of human communicationand community in a changeful and
unmanageable world that a lot ofpeople really closely identify
with.
And my book does the same thing.
I explore the book of Job andyour inbox.
(16:48):
So those are a fewrecommendations.
Does that help, Dorsey, or raiseanother question?
SPEAKER_02 (16:55):
Why do people look at the book of Job when dealing
with digital overwhelm ordealing with email overwhelm?
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
Yeah, that's a that's a that's a doozy of a
question.
So I think that people areinterested in the book.
So let me back up just a littlebit.
I'll I'll tell you that Iencountered the book of Job in
tech writers through an authornamed Megan O'Giblin.
(17:24):
Um, and she wrote a book calledGod, Human, Animal, Machine,
which I adored.
I just thought it was abeautiful book.
And in that book, she exploreslike interpretations and
misinterpretations of the bookof Job from her perspective, and
she connects it closely todigital tech and its
development.
But why is it so important to somany people who write in that
(17:48):
space?
If you remember, the book of Jobis it's sort of set up with a
kind of frame story of this verywealthy man who loses almost
everything he has, including hischildren and his own health.
And then for much of the book,there's a series of dialogues
(18:09):
between Job and his friends.
He has three or four friendsthat show up throughout the
book.
And then at the end of the book,they're all basically sitting in
silence.
They've kind of run out ofthings to say, which you're sort
of relieved about because it's along dialogue and uh frankly
it's quite repetitive.
(18:29):
But yeah, at the end, they'reall like, we have no idea what
to say to you, Job.
And Job is like, the words ofJob are ended.
You know, he doesn't haveanything more to say either.
And after a brief, you know,sort of, you know, uh monologue
from a very young whippersnapper of a guy named Elihu,
um, a whirlwind shows up, andit's a huge storm.
(18:54):
And out of the storm comes thevoice of God or the voice of the
Lord.
And what does the Lord say toJob?
Job has been asking for God totalk to him and listen to him
for chapter after chapter, andthe Lord has been silent.
So when God shows up, we're alllike, what is God gonna say to
Job?
(19:15):
And what God communicates to Jobis very curious and unexpected,
and that is he talks about thedetails, the intricacies, and
the scale of God's creation.
He talks about various sundry,strange creatures in the world.
(19:40):
And what's interesting is thathumans are not talked about in
the Lord's speech.
God doesn't talk about people.
I think there's one reference topeople in these three or four
chapters, this long monologuefrom for the Lord.
And so Job is in a certain waykind of de-centered as a human,
and he's just like put in themiddle of creation, and there's
(20:02):
this tremendous sense of awe andtruly overwhelm at the vastness
of and unmanageability of thecreation.
So I don't know.
I think that experience of aweand unmanageability is so much
the human condition, yeah, evenin technologized spaces, or
(20:25):
maybe especially intechnologized spaces, where we
feel like, oh, the world ismoving too fast, it's too big, I
don't feel like I'm at thecenter of it, and it threatens
my personal significance andmeaning.
And so I think that that storyand those conversations are
really ripe for reflection ontechnologized society.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Yeah.
We even see, you know, AIpopping up everywhere now, you
know, it on our phones, it's onour computers, it's on our on
our podcast, you know, sitesthat we can write out, you know,
an introduction to, you know, uhwe can write out, you know, what
the episode was about, and wecan have AI do that for, you
(21:11):
know, f for ourselves.
We don't have to write it outanymore.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Do you uh do you find that thatuh how do you interact with that
that opportunity?
Do you do you resist it?
Do you kind of use it as a tool?
Do you what yeah, what's beenyour practice?
SPEAKER_02 (21:29):
I I use it as as far as the podcast part of it goes,
I use it, you know, to help me,you know, to to write it out and
you know, write out a blog orwrite out, you know, to write
out the what the episode wasabout and you know, things of
that nature, even you know, helpme think about a title of what
(21:52):
the episode could be about, andthen I can pick out a title and
if I don't want to use that, youknow, what they have, I can make
up my own.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
I mean, I do something similarto that.
I often find that, you know, I Iwrite a long prompt, right?
And uh especially for help increating, like you said,
introductions to podcasts likethis.
And I often find that it's notspeaking in a voice that sounds
like me, so I need to reallychange a lot of it, throw a lot
(22:23):
of it out.
But yeah, it does, it sort ofgets away from the problem of
the blank page.
Like it gives you something towork with to edit and revise and
amplify and extend.
Um, so yeah, it's a reallywonderful tool.
And I think in many ways, likethe people that I was talking to
aren't, you know, in my bookproject, they're not
(22:45):
particularly worried about this.
Mostly they just see it as like,you know, the uh continuation of
the story of technologicaldevelopment that they have just
you know sort of been born into.
For the rest of us who knewlife, you know, well before the
digital, uh that's you know, itis pretty disconcerting in in
(23:07):
many ways.
SPEAKER_02 (23:08):
Yeah.
Going to a different topic nowfor a minute, if my job didn't
feel meaningful, should I quit?
And I I saw that uh question aslike I need to ask that question
because I think even for myself,that's a very, you know,
meaningful, if you use a word,you know, meaningful question
(23:29):
and an interesting question tothink about.
SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
Yeah, if my job doesn't feel like it has a
point, or it doesn't, if itdoesn't feel significant or
meaningful, should I just find adifferent line of work?
You're right.
I mean, that is a huge, hugequestion.
It's a question, again, thattook me to the wisdom literature
of the Bible and the book ofEcclesiastes.
What does the worker gain fromtheir toil?
(23:57):
Is the question that thephilosopher who's writing the
book of Ecclesiastes or who isspeaking and it keeps coming
back to.
What's the point of our work?
Is there any point to it?
Is it absurd?
And I think, especially indigital spaces, it's easy to
feel like maybe this is a gift,honestly, Dorsey, but it's a
(24:18):
gift that being in contact withso much of the world all the
time reminds us of howunimportant we are, how small
our lives and our work.
Um, but it can also be reallyupsetting, too.
And so, yeah, about halfwaythrough my book, I I have a
chapter on meaning and work andwhat digital overwhelm does to
(24:43):
your sense of the point of yourjob.
But your question was more,should you quit?
And you know, that there's nosort of binary answer for that.
Yes, you should quit right now,or no, you should never quit.
It's it's always going to bebased on how you're making sense
of your work and the conditionsyou find yourself in.
(25:06):
I think there are some easyanswers in the sense that like
if you're experiencing abuse atwork, or if you're experiencing,
you know, um inequity orprofound, you know, sort of
moral wrong, yeah, get out ofthere as fast as you can.
Keep your soul intact.
Um, but the harder questions arewhen the work feels like it,
(25:28):
it's it's just like that's justa thing I'm doing, and I'm not
sure if there's muchsignificance in it, much meaning
in it.
So in the book of Ecclesiastes,the way that this is approached,
the teacher sort of agrees withyou and says, yeah, your work is
not gonna last, your work isvery small, and it will quickly
(25:50):
be forgotten.
It will probably be picked up bypeople who don't share the
commitments you do, and they'regonna do something else with it.
And so, yeah, that's all true.
But still, try to enjoy it.
That's the refrain that keepscoming through in the book of
Ecclesiastes.
So I guess, you know, as much asyou can, try to enjoy the work
(26:13):
that is in front of you.
If that becomes impossible andit just remains impossible, then
I think, yeah, I think it wouldbe wise to look for another line
of work where you can find somejoy.
I'll just add one more thing,and that is that most people in
the world don't do work thatallows them to really feel
(26:33):
fulfilled and to feel a deepsense of significance.
Most people who've ever liveddon't feel that their work had
this kind of deep satisfactionto it.
For most people in the historyof human life, it's just been
toil, it's just been labor, it'sjust a thing you gotta do.
And it's in those conditions, Ithink, that the philosopher in
(26:53):
the book of Ecclesiastes issaying, as much as you can, work
hard at it and enjoy it.
So that's my sort of attempt toanswer your your really, really
good question.
What are you thinking after I'vesaid that?
SPEAKER_02 (27:08):
I agree, I agree with you.
I agree with you that you know,at there are times that
depending on the situation, likeyou said, maybe it's a more
situation that, you know, thecompany's doing, people at work
are doing that, that you shouldget out of it and just run away
from it as as quickly as youcan.
(27:30):
But like you said too, whathelps me is to try and enjoy the
work that you're doing as muchas you can.
You know, even though you maynot like it, you may not, you
know, enjoy it as much, but tryto enjoy it as much as you as
much as you can.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Yeah.
I think that's right.
I think that's right.
SPEAKER_02 (27:56):
One last question.
What role should an indirectcommunication play in everyday
work and life?
SPEAKER_01 (28:04):
I think this was another sort of finding in my my
research and reflection aboutthe research.
It's the indirect communication.
Matters every bit as much asdirect communication.
So think about directcommunication, the most
elemental form of communication.
You have a sender, you have areceiver, and you know, the
(28:26):
sender transmits a message tothe receiver.
And uh it's like when I was akid and I played with a tin can
with a string to another tincan, and you know, we'd have
like 50 feet between me and theother person, and we're both
holding a tin can, and you know,I say something into the tin can
(28:48):
and they hear it on their end.
That's direct communication.
And it's really important.
It's important to do that well.
But at the same time, indirectcommunication is all the stuff
we do kind of around that directcommunication.
And a lot of that is relational,a lot of that is emotional, a
(29:10):
lot of that is embodied.
It's in our gestures, it's inour posture, it's in our
nonverbal communication.
And sometimes, especially if youdon't hold a lot of power in
your organization, indirectcommunication is all you got.
I often tell a story of one ofmy interviewees who was a
Haitian American, and she wasworking in a nonprofit, and they
(29:35):
were doing some training on umequity in their company, and
they were watching a video, andit was like a workshop sort of
thing.
And because she was a blackwoman, she experienced the video
in a different way than herwhite co-workers did, and it
made her weep.
And for them, it was just like,oh, this is another sort of HR
(29:55):
workshop that we're doing.
And um she, you know, she had toturn her camera off and kind of
get herself together because shewas crying so much.
And when she came back on, uhshe adopted what she called the
face, and this was a facialexpression that.
That allowed her to kind ofcontain her emotion, but also to
(30:18):
kind of set up an appropriatedistance from her colleagues who
were really kind of oblivious towhat she was feeling.
And that's a form of indirectcommunication ways.
But yeah, I think especiallypeople who don't have a lot of
sway in their organizations,that indirect communication may
be the most important kind ofcommunication.
SPEAKER_02 (30:42):
Yeah.
Where can people get your bookand you know learn more about
you and even your newsletterthat you have?
SPEAKER_01 (30:53):
Thank you.
I appreciate that, Dorsey.
The easiest way to get a hold ofmy work is to go to my website,
The Mode Switch.
So that's three words, but allput together, themode
switch.com.
And my newsletter is called TheMode Switch.
And it explores work culture inmuch in the way that you and I
(31:15):
have been talking.
So if you have listeners who arefeeling a little bit confused or
bewildered or frustrated withtheir organizational cultures
and the companies that they'reemployed by, my newsletter might
help you to cope a little betterwith those conditions.
I take up a different questionevery week.
If they're interested in mybook, they can also find that on
themodeswitch.com.
(31:37):
But they can also just look forit on Amazon if you just search
for the book Digital Overwhelm.
It'll pop right up.
SPEAKER_02 (31:43):
Okay.
Sounds good.
Well, Dr.
Craig, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
My pleasure, for sure.
It was great to meet you,Dorsey, and I appreciate the
work that you're doing with somany different guests.
SPEAKER_02 (31:56):
Thank you.
And one last uh thing.
Would you give my audience aword of encouragement or word of
knowledge about what wediscussed today?
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
I'd be pleased to.
I think one of the for me, thekind of words of wisdom I try to
keep in mind is that digitaloverwhelm is something that
requires patience with ourselvesand with others.
So as you feel digitaloverwhelm, the first impulse is
(32:32):
to try to avoid it or to runaway from it, to flee it, or
maybe to combat it in some overtway.
But I think that, you know, theword of scripture again and
again is wait.
And I think when you feel thatsense of technological
exhaustion settling over you,uh, when you, as one of my
colleagues put it the other day,commit digital overwhelm, you
(32:55):
need to sit quietly and wait.
I think it will become a littlebit more navigable as you do
that.
And then also sometimes you haveto wait for others who are also
similarly overwhelmed.
So that's a word of grace andwisdom that I try to live out.
SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Yeah.
Well, guys and girls, thank youso much for coming on the show
today and listening and beingencouraged and hopefully a
little inspired.
And please go and like Dr.
Greg's information and uh book.
And until next time, God bless.
Bye bye.
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