November 20, 2024 • 54 mins
What sparks a successful TV anchor to trade the newsroom for a pulpit? Pastor Mike Manuel shares his compelling journey, offering us a glimpse into life on the family farm with his charismatic father, Rex, and how a pivotal Bible camp experience transformed his path. Mike's fascinating transition from broadcasting to ministry is both humorous and heartfelt, embracing the power of faith to find true purpose. His story is a testament to the unexpected turns life can take when guided by a higher calling.
Why do Christians still wrestle with Satan if Jesus's victory on the cross was final? This intriguing question sets the stage for a deeper exploration into the subtleties of spiritual warfare. Drawing from his book "Breaking Up With the Enemy," Mike unpacks the profound impact of our words and thoughts, urging us to speak life and positivity. Through personal insights, he reveals how aligning our speech with God's will unlocks the Holy Spirit's transformative power in our lives, encouraging us to rise above negativity.
Embracing the supernatural in Christianity, Mike navigates the complex terrain of modern faith. He discusses how the New Covenant calls for a life led by the Holy Spirit, highlighting the growth of younger generations within the church. From deciphering the enemy's tactics to advocating for a church that thrives on truth and spiritual power, this episode is an invitation to explore the miraculous. Join us as we challenge misconceptions and invite listeners to experience the full impact of faith, just as Jesus and his disciples did.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dorsey Ross (00:01):
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DorseyRus Show.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
His name is Mike Manuel.
Before becoming a pastor at theage of 40, mike spent several
years in the broadcast industryas an on-air video personality
(00:27):
and a TV news anchor for localNBC affiliate.
Over the last two decades as apastor, micah's equipped
thousands of people toexperience more of God's power,
purpose and peace througheffective deliverance ministry
(00:49):
and understandable biblicalteaching.
Mike has written two books.
One is named Torn, emplacingthe New Covenant in an Old
Covenant World, and there'sNoah's book, breaking Up with
the Enemy how to Defeat theDevil's Deceit and Reclaim Peace
(01:12):
, hope and Joy.
As my podcast guest today, mikewill give us my listeners
tangible biblical steps thatthey can take to experience more
of the abundant life that Jesuspromised in John 10.
Mike, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
(01:32):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Mike Manuel (01:33):
It's great to be with you, Dorsey.
Thank you Absolutely.
Dorsey Ross (01:37):
Now, what is your favorite?
As I said earlier I know, givemy guests an icebreaker question
.
Today's icebreaker question iswhat's your favorite funny story
to tell?
Mike Manuel (01:53):
Well, that's an easy one.
I grew up on a family farm andthen moved later on, moved back
to the farm as an adult, raisedmy boys and worked with.
So, growing up working with mydad and my dad was a pretty
colorful person and his name wasRex R-E-X and we—he was quite a
(02:16):
character and there wassome—several episodes on the
farm that lent itself to somegreat stories, and so every time
we would get together for afamily gathering, later on in
the years people would say tellus a Rex story.
So that's my favorite storiesto tell are Rex stories.
(02:38):
Growing up with my dad on thefarm, and what would be one of
those stories?
Well, I'll try to not make ittoo long, but the one that I
think that started everything.
I was probably about eighthgrade, I think kind of a smart
aleck junior high boy and ourdog got ran over a great big St
(03:05):
Bernard lab cross, and its leggot broken.
And so my dad was going to takeit to the vet and so he tried
to put it in our pickup truckand it would just jump out.
It didn't like being in theback of the pickup so it
wouldn't stay in the pickup.
Even with a broken leg it wouldjump out.
And so he decided to put it inthe trunk of our car and at that
(03:27):
time we had one of those greatbig Olds 98, big banana boat
cars and I was inside the housewatching.
I should have been out helping,but again, I'm a smart aleck
eighth grade boy, and so I waswatching out the window and he'd
scoop up this dog and put it inthe trunk and then put his
(03:47):
hands up on the lid of the trunkto close it.
But the dog would jump out andthis repeated itself three or
four times.
Put the dog in the car, dogwould jump out before he could
get the trunk closed.
So he hollered at me to comeout and help him.
And he was.
He was kind of intense when hewas doing things and I always
tried to please my dad, and sohe said, okay, I'm going to put
(04:10):
this dog in and hold him down.
And when I say close the trunk,you close the trunk quick.
Well, he put the dog in and hesaid, just starting to say,
close the trunk.
Well, I came down with all theforce of the universe with that
trunk and hit him right on thetop of the head.
It was the most sickening thudI've ever heard in my life and I
(04:30):
honestly thought I killed mydad.
And he howled around for about30 seconds and I thought, you
know, I was asking him should Icall an ambulance?
And he just kind of shook itoff.
He said I'm fine and got in andtook the dog to the vet.
But you know, it's that storyof the young boy trying to
please his dad and you know I'mgoing to do things so well, but
(04:53):
I kind of got him off guard.
So anyway, that was kind of thefirst episode of the wreck.
Dorsey Ross (05:02):
how did you in your bio that-air radio and then got
into the TV side?
Mike Manuel (05:29):
That's a long story I won't tell now.
And I was single at that timewhen I was in the TV business
and then got married during thattime and my wife and I wanted
to have kids.
And you know, doing the localnews you have newscasts at 5.30
and 10.
(05:49):
So I was gone every evening,every weeknight evening, and I
could see that that wasn't goingto be really family friendly.
And although I mostly enjoyedthat career, I could just tell
that it was not going to be thebest to raise a family.
And at the same time we had anopportunity to move back to the
(06:11):
family farm and kind of takethat over.
So we made that decision and soI did that for a while until I
was called in to the ministry asa pastor.
Dorsey Ross (06:22):
Did you grow up in the church?
Were you?
You know were you saved most ofyour life.
Mike Manuel (06:29):
Yes and yes, I grew up in the Lutheran church,
which I'm, you know.
I'm thankful.
You know I learned some of theBible stories and, of course,
knew about Jesus and His deathon the cross.
You know, there's some things Ididn't catch.
This concept of salvationsomehow escaped me.
But I went to a Bible camp moreof a non-denominational
(06:57):
evangelical-type Bible camp whenI was 10 years old and that's
where I first heard this idea ofsalvation, old, and that's
where I first heard this idea ofsalvation and, you know,
personal salvation and puttingyour faith and trust in Jesus to
be saved.
Before that I thought, well,you just be, you know, just be
good.
But I'm only 10 years old too,so you know you're still trying
(07:18):
to figure this out.
But anyway, it was at thatBible camp that I accepted Jesus
and was saved.
But you know, then, through theteen years junior high, high
school I still continued to goto church, but I wasn't
well-discipled and I didn'tlearn a lot about the Bible.
But I was saved and I didstupid high school things, you
(07:41):
know, like a lot of people do.
But I would say it was probablyin my younger adult years, 1920
, 21, going to college, gettinginto a good church.
That's where I really learnedmore about salvation, jesus
himself and the gospel message.
Dorsey Ross (08:01):
When it comes to what you do now as a pastor.
What makes you passionate aboutwhat you do?
Mike Manuel (08:10):
Oh, that's a great question, honestly.
It's to see life change inpeople, to see them transformed.
You know, there's so manypeople that just don't have
peace and they don't know how toget it and they just think know
how to get it and they justthink it's elusive.
And that crosses all boundariesfinancial boundaries, society
(08:35):
boundaries, educationalboundaries.
There's just—people don't havea lot of peace and they're
increasingly losing hope.
And when they're taught thegospel message and salvation
through Christ and freedom fromthe influence of the enemy and
(08:56):
God's love for them and God'sforgiveness for them, to just
see their life transformed andeven after salvation, to see
them grow and become more andmore like Christ, to experience
more peace and more joy and morehope and just to see them come
alive, that's my passion.
Dorsey Ross (09:16):
And here's another question that I would like to
discuss with you If the devilwas defeated on the cross, why
do we still have to deal withhim?
Mike Manuel (09:31):
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's a question I had towrestle with.
So I'm a second-career pastor,as some people refer to it.
I started pastoring when I was40, as you mentioned in the
intro and the first few yearspastoring I was kind of a
spiritual ambulance, trying tokiss everybody's boo-boo and
help everybody.
(09:52):
But the need is so great,there's so much people are going
through out there, and itbecame almost overwhelming, and
so I began sending people to,referring them to professional
counselors, which there'sdefinitely a need for that.
But what I really found out isthe majority of people were
(10:17):
struggling with spiritual issuesthat led to emotional issues,
and so the root problem wasspiritual, not clinical.
You know there was some of thatclinical problems, but not a
lot.
So I really began to.
You know, god just really tookme on a journey, teaching me how
to set people free from theinfluence of the enemy and how
(10:41):
much the enemy was influencingpeople and bringing baggage into
their life.
But one of the questions I hadwas a question you asked is well
, why are we—Jesus defeatedSatan on the cross, the Bible
says that.
So why are we even messing withhim?
And what I learned is this thatJesus did win a victory the
victory on the cross, that Jesusdid win a victory the victory
(11:04):
on the cross and we're called toenforce that victory, just like
when you know if nations are inbattle, like World War II, for
example.
We won World War II, we won thevictory, but then we had to
enforce the borders.
We kept soldiers on the bordersto make sure that the enemy
(11:25):
didn't try to cross the borderagain.
And it's similar to that in ourChristian life.
Jesus won the victory for us,but we have to enforce that
victory and he's given us powerand authority to do it.
But a lot of Christians numberone don't know how to—they don't
know that they have that powerand authority, number one and
(11:47):
they're missing some critical—Iwould say a critical step in
taking power and authority overthe enemy.
And so there's—like Paul said,we shouldn't be ignorant of the
devil's devices, of his schemes,but a lot of Christians are of
his schemes, but a lot ofChristians are.
Dorsey Ross (12:06):
And the Bible also says you know, the devil comes
to steal, kill and destroy aswell.
Right, so what I hear yousaying is that we can keep the
enemy from you know, from ourlives.
We just have to know how todeal with that.
Mike Manuel (12:26):
Right, exactly, and a lot of Christians, including
myself.
Even years as a pastor.
I was not really well equippedto do that.
Dorsey Ross (12:36):
So what would you say to the Christians, and to
myself even, how would you say,what would your logic or what
would your outline be to do that?
Mike Manuel (12:50):
Here's the key the enemy can't do whatever he wants
.
Again, he's been defeated, buthe's still active.
He still has some power, butthe only power the enemy has.
When I say enemy, I'm talkingabout the devil and his army of
fallen angels, which the Biblecalls demons or evil spirits.
They're real.
Jesus referred to them.
He said you know, you havepower and authority over them
(13:13):
because they're real, right.
But the only power they have isthe power of our agreement.
And we would think, well, Iwould never agree with the enemy
, but we do, unknowingly,unwittingly.
And so in Genesis 1, god gaveus mankind power and authority
(13:37):
on this earth.
It's his earth, right.
He's the sovereign king, he'sthe Lord of all, for sure.
But in his sovereignty, forwhatever reason, he's given
mankind power and authority onthe earth.
And he said that in Genesis 1,and he reaffirmed that in the
New Testament, you know morespecifically in Matthew 16.
He said I give you the keys ofthe kingdom.
(13:59):
So we have power and authority.
Of course, he created us withfree will as well, so that we
could love, and that's anothertopic.
But he knew that we would useour free will to at times
disagree with him.
And Adam and Eve did that.
(14:19):
They disagreed with God andagreed with Satan, and that's
what empowered Satan and that'swhat empowers him today is our
agreement.
And again you would think, well,I would never agree with the
enemy.
But here's a simpleillustration that I think we've
all probably experienced.
(14:40):
You know, the Bible says thisis the day the Lord has made.
I'll rejoice and be glad in it.
So if we get up in the morningand say, god, I don't know what
today holds, but you hold todayand I trust you and I'm speaking
life into today and I'm justbelieving that you're going to
go ahead of me and that there'sgoing to be joy and peace, and
(15:02):
so'm just believing that you'regoing to go ahead of me and that
there's going to be joy andpeace, and so I just partner
with that in Jesus' name.
When you do that, the HolySpirit is there to help that
happen and there's a word forthat.
It's called prayer.
When we speak according toGod's will, god is there to help
make that happen.
That's biblical, that's thebasis of prayer.
(15:27):
Conversely, when we speak indisagreement with God's word,
the enemy is right there, thedevil's right there, to help
that happen.
So if we get up in the morningand say, oh, today's going to be
a horrible day, today's goingto stink, the boss is going to
be grouchy, kids are going to besick, the weather is going to
be horrible, or you knowwhatever.
(15:48):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We don't think anything of that, but that's the type of stuff
that the enemy can agree with.
You know, the Bible says inProverbs 18, 21, that death and
life are in the power of thetongue, and those who love it
will eat its fruit.
I just used to think that meant,you know, say nice things,
don't say bad things.
(16:08):
And it does mean that.
But it means much more.
It means there's power in ourwords.
That's why Jesus said watch thewords you speak.
There's no such thing as idlewords.
So when we speak in agreementwith God, he's there to help
that happen Again.
Consequently, if we speak inagreement with the enemy, he's
there to help that happen.
And there are people havingsupernaturally cruddy days
(16:34):
simply from the words of theirmouth.
And so, again, we wouldn'tthink that we would agree with
the enemy, but we do, and one ofthe main ways we do that is
simply from the words of ourmouth.
Dorsey Ross (16:48):
Yeah, I would never have thought about that either.
But you know, you're right, wedo and, like you're saying, with
the words that we say and thewords that we speak, we need to
be careful with what we say andwith what we speak.
Mike Manuel (17:04):
Yeah, because actually what you're doing then
and this is a really importantconcept and I talk about it in
my book Breaking Up With theEnemy is that we actually,
through that, give the enemylegal consent in our life.
There's this concept that Italk about in my book, that the
Bible talks about.
(17:24):
Jesus actually talked about it.
One of the places in Matthew 18is an example of that, and I
can talk about that in a minuteof this idea of legal consent or
opening doors to the enemy.
Again, the enemy can't dowhatever they want.
They just can't attack and dowhatever they want.
They're very limited, again, byour agreement.
(17:46):
But when we do agree, we'veopened a door to the enemy,
we've given them legal consent.
Now, that doesn't mean we getpossessed, because Christians
cannot be possessed.
The Holy Spirit possesses us,but we can be oppressed, we can
be influenced, and that's whatthe devil does.
When we agree with him, hegains access really to just
(18:11):
speak into our life and tries toinfluence.
His only power really isinfluence.
He lies to us hoping that we'llact on that lie or believe that
lie, and it just brings anxietyand fear and hopelessness and
just all kinds of junk.
And so one of the reasons Iwrote the book, based on a
(18:35):
couple decades of ministryexperiences, is it is possible
to get rid of that baggage.
There's so many people,christians, who are full of
anxiety and fear and livinglives of chaos and anger and
sexual dysfunction and just allkinds of things, hopelessness,
(18:57):
and again.
The list goes on and on.
I just think that's just normal, that's just life, that's just
part of life.
And Jesus didn't say that.
He said in John 10.10, I cameto give you an abundant life,
which doesn't mean every day isgoing to be easy, but every day
can have peace and hope and joy.
(19:18):
And so I think Christians havejust settled in their mind that,
well, this is just, this is theway it is, and we just got to
grind it out until Jesus comesback.
And that's not what he said andthat's not what he wants.
Dorsey Ross (19:34):
Now you mentioned about your book, you know,
breaking Up With the Enemy.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that book, the title
of it?
The title of it sounds like youknow.
It sounds like you know we'rein obviously we're not, but it
sounds like you know we're in aalmost like a dating
relationship with the enemy andwe're thinking up with them.
(19:55):
Can you tell us a little bitmore about the title and about
you know?
What made you write the book?
Mike Manuel (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, that.
So um it, yeah, it's not likewe're dating the devil, but it's
like like he kind of is, he'sinfluencing us and it's like
being in a dysfunctionalrelationship.
Uh, and it's there.
You know, sometimes you justit's, you don't know how to get
out of it.
You just don't know how to getout of it.
And of course, we don'tknowingly date the enemy, but we
(20:30):
do come under that influenceand a lot of people are in a
relationship with the enemy anddon't even know they're in a
relationship with him.
In other words, the only powerthe enemy has again is the power
of our agreement.
But the only way he works thatout in our life is to speak to
our mind, to lie to us, and hegives us a lot of truth when he
twists it, just enough to get us180 degrees out of whack.
(20:50):
And so a lot of people don'trecognize the lies of the enemy.
They just think it's themselvesthinking things through,
because the enemy speaks to ourconscience.
You know, it's not some scarydeep voice from the pit of hell,
it's a voice because the devilspeaks to our conscience.
(21:12):
It sounds like us just thinkingthings through, and I'm sure a
lot of you know the listenersout there have had conversations
with themselves.
You probably have, I have.
We hear basically three voicesother than other people.
We hear our own voice.
You know we think thingsthrough, but then there's the
voice of God that speaks to usand there's the voice of the
(21:36):
enemy.
And I think a lot of Christiansdon't recognize either.
They don't recognize the voiceof God and they don't recognize
the voice of God and they don'trecognize the voice of the enemy
.
They just think it's themthinking things through.
But because God speaks to ourconscience, again it sounds like
us because it's not audible.
It's just these thoughts thatcome in, but a lot of times
(21:58):
they're God thoughts, but a lotof times they're enemy thoughts.
Enemy is speaking to our mind,you know, getting us to act in a
way that's not good or fillingus with despair and hopelessness
, like you're not lovable,you're not worthy, nobody, you
don't count, you're not valuableto other people, and it goes on
(22:20):
and on and on, and the enemyjust constantly speaks that to
people, hoping that they'llbelieve that.
And a lot of people do, andthat's what brings the baggage
into their life Anxiety, fear,hopelessness, all that stuff.
Dorsey Ross (22:36):
You know you mentioned about those voices
that the enemy speaks into us.
I remember he does at times aswell.
You know, still to this day hedoes, and you know I think that
goes back to what I mentionedbefore that he wants to still
kill and destroy us.
But I remember, you know timeswhere he would say you know
you're telling me that I was nogood.
(22:59):
You know I wasn't going to makeit in this life.
You're ugly.
You know no woman is going tolove you.
You know all those voicescoming into my head and I had to
realize and I had to say hey,you know, get behind me, satan.
You know I'm going to believewhat God is telling me.
Mike Manuel (23:20):
Right, so you've experienced that.
I think every Christian hasexperienced some degree of that,
but most of them don'trecognize it.
They don't recognize the voiceof the enemy.
Dorsey Ross (23:36):
Why do you think that is?
Mike Manuel (23:39):
Well, again, because you know he's speaking
to our conscience and we justthink it's us thinking things
through.
And once you know so that's whyI think this book is so helpful
, again based on 20 years ofministry and doing seminars in
this line of deliverance is oncepeople kind of awaken
(24:04):
themselves to the tactics of theenemy.
They realize wait, so thosearen't my own thoughts, that's
the enemy.
Putting those thoughts in thereand then like oh, okay, and the
more you are aware of that, themore you begin to recognize
that.
And it's the same with thevoice of God.
The voice of God can be audibleand I think maybe I heard that
(24:27):
once, but really most peoplethat's not the experience.
The Bible says it's this stillsmall voice and again God speaks
to our conscience and again itsounds like us.
But it took me a while toreally begin to recognize the
voice of God.
And even today it's like, okay,god, was that you, or is that
(24:51):
me just thinking, or is that you?
And if that's you, I'd likesome confirmation.
And so I think it's more subtlethan we maybe expect and I
think that's why people miss it,because they're waiting.
Whether it's from God or thedevil, they're waiting, you know
, like say it's God.
They're waiting for this big,boomy voice from heaven, you
(25:13):
know, and that almost neverhappens.
I suppose it could, but that'snot generally how God speaks.
Elijah had that same experience,but the same with the enemy.
It's not some scary figure thatshows up in your bedroom with
horns and a tail and a pitchfork.
(25:33):
It sounds like the voice ofreason in our head, like did you
see the way she rolled her eyesat you?
Are you going to put up withthat?
You need to go tell her rightnow just what you think.
You need to put her in herplace, because if you don't do
that, she's going to keep doingthat and rolling over people.
So you just give her a piece ofyour mind right now.
You go and blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
I mean there's just thing afterthing after thing that the
(25:56):
enemy does.
It tried to break uprelationships, does try to break
up relationships, try to loadus down with hopelessness, just
speaking to us and trying toinfluence us to act in a way
that would be in disagreementwith God.
Dorsey Ross (26:12):
And I guess the way we get over that and the way we
deal with that is obviously inreading of the Bible and, you
know, studying the Bible, andalso in then asking God to help
us to distinguish those voicesin our head and helping us to
(26:33):
you know, know whose voice isactually speaking to us.
Mike Manuel (26:39):
Right, you're right .
The more time you spend inGod's Word, reading His Word,
the more you learn His characterand nature.
And the Bible says the HolySpirit actually speaks to you
while you're reading the Word,helps you understand it.
So that's a really importantthing.
But what I found I think here'ssomething that's in my book
(27:00):
that's really missing.
What I found I think here'ssomething that's in my book
that's really missing is goingback to our power and authority
that God gave us, the same powerand authority that kind of
opened the doors to the enemy,gave them the legal consent.
That power and authority camefrom us and our words.
So we need to use that samepower and authority to shut the
(27:24):
lying mouth of the enemy, to getrid of their influence in our
life.
And that's one thing I didn'tknow, that's one thing that came
to me later and that's how I'vereally been able to help people
.
So getting rid of the enemy alot of people refer to that as
deliverance, which is in theBible like literally means
(27:46):
rescue, and and Jesus saidthat's you know Matthew 10,
seven and eight that we wouldhave to do that in the Lord's
prayer.
He said deliver us from theevil one.
So so we know that's a thing.
So how do you do that?
And it's really what I found iswell, actually it's a
three-step process, but thefirst two steps are dealing with
(28:08):
the devil.
The last one is getting filledup with Jesus.
But the first step is breakingthat agreement with the enemy.
You have to break thatagreement Now.
I don't want to take a lot oftime, but in Matthew 18, jesus
is telling the parable of theunmerciful servant.
There's a guy that runs up abig debt in the kingdom.
(28:31):
He works for the king and theking calls him in and says, hey,
you ran up this big debt, payit back.
But it was unpayable, it wastoo much money.
He says I can't pay it, butplease have mercy on me.
And the king did, didn't throwhim in jail.
(28:52):
But then that same servant goesout and has another guy thrown
in jail that owes him a smallamount of money.
And Jesus, his main focus hereis teaching on forgiveness, and
he's teaching here and elsewherein the Bible that we, as
believers, we need to forgiveeveryone, no matter what they've
done.
And that's difficult and again,that's maybe a topic we can
(29:14):
tackle.
Another day is forgiveness, butwe're called to forgive
everyone.
And what Jesus says in Matthew18, down about 35, well, 33, 34,
35, it says the king.
(29:35):
Because the guy didn't forgive,the king had him thrown, turned
him over to the jailer to betortured.
And then in verse 35, jesussays and that's what my heavenly
father will do to you if youdon't forgive your brother from
your heart.
Now I want to be really crystalclear.
God is not a jailer, he's not atorturer, he's the giver of
every good gift, he's the authorof life.
(29:55):
But there is a jailer and thereis a torturer, and it's the
enemy, it's the devil and hisarmy of fallen angels.
And what God is saying is I'mparaphrasing what Jesus is
saying in this parable he'ssaying you need to forgive
people, and if you don't forgivepeople, you're not agreeing
(30:16):
with me, you're staying indisagreement.
If you will not forgive someone.
And if you stay in disagreement, you are opening the door to
the jailer, to the torturer.
And I can tell you, in 23 yearsof pastoring, I've helped
hundreds of people, maybe athousand, I don't know.
(30:39):
Work through unforgivenessthough.
Work through unforgivenessbecause it's such a huge open
door to the enemy, because ifyou willingly stay in
unforgiveness, you are indisagreement with God, and when
you're in disagreement with Godyou're in agreement with the
enemy and it's your agreementwith the enemy that opens those
(30:59):
doors.
So I would say thatunforgiveness is the biggest
open door to the enemy.
So one of the keys in the bookthat we walk through it becomes
more of a manual.
The first several chapters arean explanation.
In my book, breaking Up With theEnemy, the first few chapters
are an explanation of you know,how do we get here?
Why do we even have to dealwith this?
(31:19):
But the last part of the bookis really more of a manual to
walk through.
How do you close that door?
How do you cancel that legalconsent?
And then so that's step onecancel that consent we gave the
enemy.
Step two is then kick them outIn the name of Jesus.
You got to go Again.
We're not possessed, but we'retaking that authority, like
(31:40):
Jesus told us in Luke 10, 19.
He says I've given youauthority to trample on snakes
and scorpions and to overcomeall the power of the enemy.
Nothing will harm you.
So we take that authority, wekick them out and then the third
step is to fill up with thegood stuff that comes from Jesus
, because Jesus said if yousweep the house clean and don't
(32:01):
fill it back up, the enemy'sgoing to come back seven times
stronger Again.
We're not talking possession Imean, that's a real thing, but
not with believers.
We're talking oppression.
We're talking influence, and soreally that's the crux of the
book helping people walk throughthat step by step, topic by
(32:28):
topic.
Dorsey Ross (32:28):
And in the other book, torn, you wrote about how
many Christians mix the Old andNew Covenants.
Mike Manuel (32:38):
What, does that look like and what's the problem
with that?
Yeah, so I realized that I wasmixing a lot of the old covenant
with the new covenant.
So the whole Bible—I want to beclear on this as well—the whole
Bible is God's Word and it'sfor us today, but we're
(32:59):
not—there are parts of the Biblethat we are no longer under.
Now we need to understand it,but we're not under the
Levitical law, for example.
Jesus has fulfilled the law sothat we don't have to, and so
the new covenant is differentthan the old covenant.
(33:19):
We're under the new covenant,not the old, and so— and so I
think a lot of people mix things.
You know one of the things.
I guess that when I was younger,going to the Lutheran church, I
remember asking my mom, becausesome of my friends in school
(33:42):
went to the Catholic church andthey had priests.
It's like, mom, how come wedon't have a priest?
She's like, well, we don't needone.
Well, why not?
She goes.
I don't know.
So you know things—okay, so whydo some churches have priests
and some don't?
But really, the question thatgot me and really was why I
(34:02):
wrote the book Torn is okay, theNew Testament says we're no
longer under the law, that we'vebeen set free of the law, we're
under the Holy Spirit.
So if we're not under the lawand the Ten Commandments are
referred to as the law, then arewe under the Ten Commandments?
(34:23):
And for years, as a pastor, Icouldn't answer that question
because it's like well, ofcourse we're under the Ten
Commandments.
It sounds like heresy to sayyou're not under the Ten
Commandments.
Right and technically it is,but it's like okay, but so it's
not right to say we're not underthe Ten Commandments.
But yet the Bible says we're nolonger under the law.
(34:45):
So how do we view the TenCommandments?
And I didn't have a good answerfor that and I really had to
research that.
And the answer to that isreally what caused me to think
okay, now what other areas arewe kind of confused about as far
(35:05):
as the Old Covenant and the NewCovenant?
And so I cover, I don't know,11, 12, or 13 different areas
where we can get confused there.
Dorsey Ross (35:16):
And thank you for explaining.
You know the Old and NewCovenant.
You know because some peoplemay, you know, not understand or
not know what that actuallymeans.
Mike Manuel (35:29):
Yeah, yeah, and when I was—so it all started.
You know, when I'm, I suppose,third grade, my parents got me a
Bible and I just startedreading in it.
But I didn't understandthat—the between the old
covenant and the new covenant.
So you start reading things,like you know, men shouldn't cut
(35:52):
their hair from the temples andyou can't eat shellfish, or you
know all these different sortsof like what, why are we not
doing that?
It's in the Bible and so ittook me.
So you just kind of ignore it,like, well, I don't understand
it, so I'm going to ignore it,and it takes a few years—it took
me a few years to get thatfigured out.
(36:14):
But so there might be some ofthe listeners like, well, what
about that Ten Commandment thing?
I just want to just talk aboutthat just really briefly.
Here's what I found Everythingin the New Covenant really is a
higher standard than the oldcovenant, because we're led by
the Holy Spirit now, not byrules and regulations etched out
(36:40):
on a stone or a piece of paper.
So, for example, the TenCommandments says so.
For example, the TenCommandments says do not lie.
So okay, if I don't lie, Ifollow that commandment.
Good, all right.
But the New Covenant says be aspeaker of the truth, speak the
(37:02):
truth in love.
So that doesn't sound likedifference, but it is different.
So Old Covenant is don't lie.
New Covenant is speak the truth.
Okay.
So that's different, that's ahigher standard.
Old Covenant says don't steal,All right, the Ten Commandments
Do not steal, all right.
(37:23):
So if I don't steal, I'm good,I'm obeying the commandment.
But the new covenant says begenerous and give to people
generously.
That's a higher standard.
The Bible says do not kill, donot murder.
More specifically, do notmurder Like, okay, good, I
(37:46):
haven't murdered anybody, so I'mfulfilling the commandments.
But the new covenant says ifyou even think about that, if
you even think poorly aboutsomeone, that's the same as
murder.
It's a higher standard.
So we're called to speak lifeinto people.
So, old covenant don't murderthem.
New covenant speak life to them.
(38:06):
So you kind of see how the newcovenant is a higher standard.
So are we under the TenCommandments?
Well, that's not even a goodquestion.
We're actually over the TenCommandments.
We're held to a higher standard, with the Holy Spirit speaking
to our heart and leading andguiding us, and so that turned
(38:28):
out to kind of be a long answer.
But I just want to sharesomething with your listeners
that confused me for years.
Dorsey Ross (38:37):
Yeah, thank you for that.
You recently seen an influx ofpeople under 40 in your church
40 in your church.
Why is that happening and howcan other churches experience
growth in that?
Mike Manuel (38:57):
demographic.
Yeah, because for years andyears it was a lot of churches
like well, we're all the youngpeople and it was the baby
boomers age, churches, aged, andin our church we've just been
really blessed to have a lot ofyoung people.
A lot of them are married withchildren, some of them are
(39:19):
single, a lot of Gen Zers singleand I'm 63 years old, I'm an
old guy with gray hair and Idon't have pointy hair and I
don't have ripped jeans, but wehave all these young people
coming and I think it's a couplereasons.
You know where we speak thetruth in an understandable,
(39:42):
clear way and unapologetically.
But there's also just thepresence of the Holy Spirit
there.
You know you can speak truthapart from the Holy Spirit,
right, but when you—this isgoing to—I don't want to make
(40:04):
this sound like, you know, newAge or weird, but when there's
an atmosphere of the Holy Spiritand people walk into that, a
lot of them don't recognize that, but like there's something
different here and it's notagain because I'm trying to be
relevant and comb my hair rightway it's like no, we're just
passionate about the presence ofGod.
(40:25):
We're passionate about Hispresence, his power, his truth.
So we're preaching truth, butwe're also allowing time just to
be in the presence of Godthrough worship and without a
lot of, I don't know,religiosity I guess that's the
(40:47):
word.
There's so much religiositythat has crept into churches
over the years and that doesn'tdo much for people, and that's
what Jesus came against.
He didn't die for religion, hedied for people.
Right, as we get to the end,one of the last's available to
(41:32):
us to work through us.
That's something I didn't—I mean, I read in the Bible, but for
years, even as a pastor, Ididn't see a lot of God's power.
I mean there was a lot of truth, and there's truth in power,
for sure.
But you know, for example,matthew 10, 7, and 8, jesus said
(42:00):
to those who believe he saidheal the sick, raise the dead,
cleanse the lepers, cast outdemons freely of receive, freely
give.
Well, you read that.
And it's like heal the sick,raise the dead, cleanse the
lepers, cast out demons freelyof receive, freely give.
Well, you read that, and it'slike heal the sick, like what?
And it's like okay, well, I'llskip on to something else,
because, like, I can't heal thesick, but actually Jesus said
(42:23):
you can and I want you to.
And in John 14.6, 14.12,.
He says the same things I doyou'll do, and he talks so much
about, you know, thesemiraculous things that work in
the lives of a believer, and foryears like, see, I'd read that
(42:44):
because it's all over the NewTestament.
You read that and it's like, isthat for today?
And it's like I don't see whereit's not for today.
I don't see anywhere in theBible that says, well, you don't
need that anymore.
It's not in the Bible.
And so it was kind of achallenge to me.
And when I just begin to stepout and pray like the disciples
(43:07):
modeled prayer for us,specifically in, say, areas of
healing, I just all of a suddenGod's power just began to flow
and people were getting healedand saved and delivered and it
was just His power.
I guess if there's one word,it's power, and I think there's
so many Christians kind ofliving a powerless Christianity,
(43:33):
and so I think that's thebiggest biblical principle that
really has impacted me.
Dorsey Ross (43:42):
Is that living like you were saying, living a
powerless life, or not seeinghealings, or not seeing miracles
take place?
Is that a lack of faith or alack of doubt from what God is
telling us that we have thepower to do?
Mike Manuel (44:05):
I think it's all the above, although it doesn't
take—he says the faith is thesize of a mustard seed.
Well, that's not big.
I think it's been, honestly, alot of bad teaching in the
church, like, oh, that's not fortoday, and I'm like—and I was
in a church for 12 years beforeI was a pastor that taught that
it's not for today and I'm like,okay, and I just took that.
(44:27):
I just like, well, it's not fortoday.
And I'm like, okay, and I justtook that.
I just like, well, it's not fortoday.
But then when God called me tobe a pastor and I'm doing Bible
school and Bible college andstudying on my own, I'm like I
can't find that anywhere.
And I know people use 1Corinthians 13,.
When everything comes intoperfection and when the perfect
comes, you know those thingswill pass away.
(44:50):
But like that's not what that'stalking about.
That's not what that's talkingabout at all.
It's really bad hermeneutics.
So I just honestly, I justcouldn't find anywhere in the
Bible where it said you don'tneed this.
In fact, I found the opposite.
Jesus said no, you need thisstuff.
You don't need this.
In fact, I found the opposite.
Jesus said no, you need thisstuff.
You need the supernatural powerof the Holy Spirit working in
(45:12):
your life.
You need that as you witness.
So some of it's bad teachingand a lot of it's just fear.
Like okay, so I learned I couldsee the biblical truth.
But now I'm fearful to step outand do that, because what if it
doesn't happen?
And what I realized, that wasjust my own junk, you know,
(45:36):
because I used to pray prayersas a pastor.
I called them namby-pambyprayers and I mean I didn't pray
these words, but it was kind of.
This attitude was oh you know,somebody came up, say, after
church and wanted prayer forhealing.
I would pray something.
I mean, I didn't pray thesewords, but the attitude was oh
(45:56):
God, if you're not too tired andif we worship hard enough today
and if Cindy here has been agood girl and you want to heal
her, great.
But if not, you know, we'll gohome and eat roast beef and you
know, whatever you want to do,and that's not a biblical prayer
.
And I knew that the prayer wasas modeled by the disciples, in
(46:19):
the name of Jesus, get up andwalk.
And I'm like, but what if I saythat?
What if I speak that and itdoesn't happen?
Well then I realize well that'slack of faith.
And so I can tell you when Istarted doing that was May of
2010.
I saw a gal with two herniateddiscs 32 years old, could hardly
(46:42):
walk, came up to the front ofthe church after service and
wanted prayer.
Came up to the front of thechurch after service and wanted
prayer and what came out of mymouth was in the name of Jesus,
I command these herniated discsto be healed in Jesus' name.
In the name of Jesus, I speakcomplete and total healing.
I couldn't believe that cameout of my mouth, but that's how
the disciples taught us to pray,and she was instantly healed
(47:07):
and it remains so today.
She lives in the same town I donow, and that really kicked off
a whole, really a new life forme.
Not that I'm some you know TVfaith healer with big hair and a
(47:32):
white suit, but I'm simplyproclaiming the truth of God's
Word and following what Jesusasked us to do and told us to do
.
And not everybody I pray forgets healed, but most do, and
honestly I just say it's kind ofcrazy.
And so what I've been teachingin the church like in our church
, one of the things I teach is.
There's good weird and badweird.
There's a lot of bad weirdthings that happen in a church.
(47:54):
You know, I personally I thinkhandling snakes is kind of bad,
weird, but whatever.
There's just some bad weirdthings that are mostly fleshly
manifestations of people.
But then there's some thingsthat are from God that are like,
wow, that's weird.
We do a lot of work in India.
(48:16):
I've been there three times.
The first time I went to India,a guy came up at one of our
outdoor events and he had abroken leg.
I mean it was dangling,eight-hour bus ride from the
nearest hospital.
We're way out in the villagesand a Hindu guy, mostly Hindu
people around, but I'd spokenabout Jesus, I'd given them a
(48:37):
gospel message.
Many had responded forsalvation and I said you know,
jesus is alive today and if youneed healing he wants to heal.
You Come up up and we'll praythat this guy comes up.
And I saw that dangly leg andI'm like I don't know.
But I just kneeled down and putmy hands on it and said in the
(48:58):
name of Jesus, I command thisleg to be healed.
And it popped right back intoplace, swear to God.
And he went off dancing andrunning and the village just
went nuts.
Now, if you don't believe that,I understand that, because if I
wouldn't have been there myselfI wouldn't have believed it.
But it happened, and otherthings have happened like that
before.
Like that's—how I can say thisthat's weird, but it's good.
(49:23):
Weird and it's stuff that Jesussaid we should be doing.
But I think there's a lot ofreasons why we don't do it.
But it's been a real I don'tknow, I guess change in my life
to see God's power, because heloves people.
That's why he's doing it.
(49:43):
And he kind of spoke that to me.
He said when you see thesehealings, make sure you tell
people that I'm real and that Icare, and so I'm always sure to
do that.
So anyway, that's one of thebig principles that has changed
my life and gives me even morepassion to minister to people.
Dorsey Ross (50:08):
Right, and I think sometimes, when it comes to
specifically healing, I think italso depends on God's timing,
maybe it's not God's timing forthat person to be healed at that
(50:29):
moment.
Mike Manuel (50:30):
Yes, and that's a thing, and I also know that God
uses doctors and nurses to heal,and I'm very thankful for that.
God used a doctor to save mylife several years ago, and so
you know I'd never discount thateither.
But I think a lot of times wewait until we're desperate
before we pray to God forhealing.
(50:50):
Like you know, we wait untilwe're on our deathbed.
Well, let's just really getaround and pray.
Well, how about you did thatfirst?
Or on your way to the doctor,maybe pray?
Dorsey Ross (50:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
One other last question I'dlike to ask is can you give us
an encouraging word to mylisteners?
Mike Manuel (51:11):
Yeah, I would just say if—go after Jesus, don't go
after religion.
There are a lot of greatchurches out there that preach
Jesus with clarity and thesimplicity that Jesus originally
(51:35):
had.
Don't let bad experiences withreligious people keep you away
from a real healthy relationshipwith Jesus.
You away from a real healthyrelationship with Jesus and the
other encouragement, especiallyas we're, you know, talking
about this idea of deliverance.
(51:56):
My book, breaking Up With theEnemy is don't just live like
anxiety and fear and chaos andanger is normal and accepted.
(52:17):
There is a way.
Jesus says we have power andauthority over that and you just
need to take the steps to dothat.
Cancel your legal consent withthe enemy, kick the enemy out
and fill yourself up with thepeace and presence of Jesus.
Dorsey Ross (52:26):
And where can people buy your book and connect
with you?
Mike Manuel (52:31):
Yeah, the best thing my books are available on
Amazon.
I think they're available otherplaces too, but Amazon's, of
course, the big one.
So Breaking Up With the Enemyis the book on Amazon.
But I also have a website thathas not only links to those
books, but I have a lot of.
I have free e-books.
I have free courses.
I have some paid for courses.
(52:52):
I have my blog.
It's modaministriescom.
M-o-t-a stands for ministry oneto another.
Modaministriescom is my websiteand there's tons of free
resources on there, and ifpeople want to get a hold of me,
they can contact me throughthat.
So that's the way to go ismodeministriescom.
Dorsey Ross (53:14):
Awesome.
Well, Pastor Mike, thank you somuch for coming on the show
today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
Mike Manuel (53:21):
Well, it's great to have the conversation with you,
dorsey, and thank you for yourpodcast and what you're doing to
help spread the kingdom throughyour podcast.
Amen.
Dorsey Ross (53:33):
Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for
coming on, for listening and forsharing this podcast, and
please go and check out PastorMike's website.
And until next time, god bless,bye-bye.
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DorseyRus Show.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
His name is Mike Manuel.
Before becoming a pastor at theage of 40, mike spent several
years in the broadcast industryas an on-air video personality
(00:27):
and a TV news anchor for localNBC affiliate.
Over the last two decades as apastor, micah's equipped
thousands of people toexperience more of God's power,
purpose and peace througheffective deliverance ministry
(00:49):
and understandable biblicalteaching.
Mike has written two books.
One is named Torn, emplacingthe New Covenant in an Old
Covenant World, and there'sNoah's book, breaking Up with
the Enemy how to Defeat theDevil's Deceit and Reclaim Peace
(01:12):
, hope and Joy.
As my podcast guest today, mikewill give us my listeners
tangible biblical steps thatthey can take to experience more
of the abundant life that Jesuspromised in John 10.
Mike, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
(01:32):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Mike Manuel (01:33):
It's great to be with you, Dorsey.
Thank you Absolutely.
Dorsey Ross (01:37):
Now, what is your favorite?
As I said earlier I know, givemy guests an icebreaker question
.
Today's icebreaker question iswhat's your favorite funny story
to tell?
Mike Manuel (01:53):
Well, that's an easy one.
I grew up on a family farm andthen moved later on, moved back
to the farm as an adult, raisedmy boys and worked with.
So, growing up working with mydad and my dad was a pretty
colorful person and his name wasRex R-E-X and we—he was quite a
(02:16):
character and there wassome—several episodes on the
farm that lent itself to somegreat stories, and so every time
we would get together for afamily gathering, later on in
the years people would say tellus a Rex story.
So that's my favorite storiesto tell are Rex stories.
(02:38):
Growing up with my dad on thefarm, and what would be one of
those stories?
Well, I'll try to not make ittoo long, but the one that I
think that started everything.
I was probably about eighthgrade, I think kind of a smart
aleck junior high boy and ourdog got ran over a great big St
(03:05):
Bernard lab cross, and its leggot broken.
And so my dad was going to takeit to the vet and so he tried
to put it in our pickup truckand it would just jump out.
It didn't like being in theback of the pickup so it
wouldn't stay in the pickup.
Even with a broken leg it wouldjump out.
And so he decided to put it inthe trunk of our car and at that
(03:27):
time we had one of those greatbig Olds 98, big banana boat
cars and I was inside the housewatching.
I should have been out helping,but again, I'm a smart aleck
eighth grade boy, and so I waswatching out the window and he'd
scoop up this dog and put it inthe trunk and then put his
(03:47):
hands up on the lid of the trunkto close it.
But the dog would jump out andthis repeated itself three or
four times.
Put the dog in the car, dogwould jump out before he could
get the trunk closed.
So he hollered at me to comeout and help him.
And he was.
He was kind of intense when hewas doing things and I always
tried to please my dad, and sohe said, okay, I'm going to put
(04:10):
this dog in and hold him down.
And when I say close the trunk,you close the trunk quick.
Well, he put the dog in and hesaid, just starting to say,
close the trunk.
Well, I came down with all theforce of the universe with that
trunk and hit him right on thetop of the head.
It was the most sickening thudI've ever heard in my life and I
(04:30):
honestly thought I killed mydad.
And he howled around for about30 seconds and I thought, you
know, I was asking him should Icall an ambulance?
And he just kind of shook itoff.
He said I'm fine and got in andtook the dog to the vet.
But you know, it's that storyof the young boy trying to
please his dad and you know I'mgoing to do things so well, but
(04:53):
I kind of got him off guard.
So anyway, that was kind of thefirst episode of the wreck.
Dorsey Ross (05:02):
how did you in your bio that-air radio and then got
into the TV side?
Mike Manuel (05:29):
That's a long story I won't tell now.
And I was single at that timewhen I was in the TV business
and then got married during thattime and my wife and I wanted
to have kids.
And you know, doing the localnews you have newscasts at 5.30
and 10.
(05:49):
So I was gone every evening,every weeknight evening, and I
could see that that wasn't goingto be really family friendly.
And although I mostly enjoyedthat career, I could just tell
that it was not going to be thebest to raise a family.
And at the same time we had anopportunity to move back to the
(06:11):
family farm and kind of takethat over.
So we made that decision and soI did that for a while until I
was called in to the ministry asa pastor.
Dorsey Ross (06:22):
Did you grow up in the church?
Were you?
You know were you saved most ofyour life.
Mike Manuel (06:29):
Yes and yes, I grew up in the Lutheran church,
which I'm, you know.
I'm thankful.
You know I learned some of theBible stories and, of course,
knew about Jesus and His deathon the cross.
You know, there's some things Ididn't catch.
This concept of salvationsomehow escaped me.
But I went to a Bible camp moreof a non-denominational
(06:57):
evangelical-type Bible camp whenI was 10 years old and that's
where I first heard this idea ofsalvation, old, and that's
where I first heard this idea ofsalvation and, you know,
personal salvation and puttingyour faith and trust in Jesus to
be saved.
Before that I thought, well,you just be, you know, just be
good.
But I'm only 10 years old too,so you know you're still trying
(07:18):
to figure this out.
But anyway, it was at thatBible camp that I accepted Jesus
and was saved.
But you know, then, through theteen years junior high, high
school I still continued to goto church, but I wasn't
well-discipled and I didn'tlearn a lot about the Bible.
But I was saved and I didstupid high school things, you
(07:41):
know, like a lot of people do.
But I would say it was probablyin my younger adult years, 1920
, 21, going to college, gettinginto a good church.
That's where I really learnedmore about salvation, jesus
himself and the gospel message.
Dorsey Ross (08:01):
When it comes to what you do now as a pastor.
What makes you passionate aboutwhat you do?
Mike Manuel (08:10):
Oh, that's a great question, honestly.
It's to see life change inpeople, to see them transformed.
You know, there's so manypeople that just don't have
peace and they don't know how toget it and they just think know
how to get it and they justthink it's elusive.
And that crosses all boundariesfinancial boundaries, society
(08:35):
boundaries, educationalboundaries.
There's just—people don't havea lot of peace and they're
increasingly losing hope.
And when they're taught thegospel message and salvation
through Christ and freedom fromthe influence of the enemy and
(08:56):
God's love for them and God'sforgiveness for them, to just
see their life transformed andeven after salvation, to see
them grow and become more andmore like Christ, to experience
more peace and more joy and morehope and just to see them come
alive, that's my passion.
Dorsey Ross (09:16):
And here's another question that I would like to
discuss with you If the devilwas defeated on the cross, why
do we still have to deal withhim?
Mike Manuel (09:31):
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's a question I had towrestle with.
So I'm a second-career pastor,as some people refer to it.
I started pastoring when I was40, as you mentioned in the
intro and the first few yearspastoring I was kind of a
spiritual ambulance, trying tokiss everybody's boo-boo and
help everybody.
(09:52):
But the need is so great,there's so much people are going
through out there, and itbecame almost overwhelming, and
so I began sending people to,referring them to professional
counselors, which there'sdefinitely a need for that.
But what I really found out isthe majority of people were
(10:17):
struggling with spiritual issuesthat led to emotional issues,
and so the root problem wasspiritual, not clinical.
You know there was some of thatclinical problems, but not a
lot.
So I really began to.
You know, god just really tookme on a journey, teaching me how
to set people free from theinfluence of the enemy and how
(10:41):
much the enemy was influencingpeople and bringing baggage into
their life.
But one of the questions I hadwas a question you asked is well
, why are we—Jesus defeatedSatan on the cross, the Bible
says that.
So why are we even messing withhim?
And what I learned is this thatJesus did win a victory the
victory on the cross, that Jesusdid win a victory the victory
(11:04):
on the cross and we're called toenforce that victory, just like
when you know if nations are inbattle, like World War II, for
example.
We won World War II, we won thevictory, but then we had to
enforce the borders.
We kept soldiers on the bordersto make sure that the enemy
(11:25):
didn't try to cross the borderagain.
And it's similar to that in ourChristian life.
Jesus won the victory for us,but we have to enforce that
victory and he's given us powerand authority to do it.
But a lot of Christians numberone don't know how to—they don't
know that they have that powerand authority, number one and
(11:47):
they're missing some critical—Iwould say a critical step in
taking power and authority overthe enemy.
And so there's—like Paul said,we shouldn't be ignorant of the
devil's devices, of his schemes,but a lot of Christians are of
his schemes, but a lot ofChristians are.
Dorsey Ross (12:06):
And the Bible also says you know, the devil comes
to steal, kill and destroy aswell.
Right, so what I hear yousaying is that we can keep the
enemy from you know, from ourlives.
We just have to know how todeal with that.
Mike Manuel (12:26):
Right, exactly, and a lot of Christians, including
myself.
Even years as a pastor.
I was not really well equippedto do that.
Dorsey Ross (12:36):
So what would you say to the Christians, and to
myself even, how would you say,what would your logic or what
would your outline be to do that?
Mike Manuel (12:50):
Here's the key the enemy can't do whatever he wants
.
Again, he's been defeated, buthe's still active.
He still has some power, butthe only power the enemy has.
When I say enemy, I'm talkingabout the devil and his army of
fallen angels, which the Biblecalls demons or evil spirits.
They're real.
Jesus referred to them.
He said you know, you havepower and authority over them
(13:13):
because they're real, right.
But the only power they have isthe power of our agreement.
And we would think, well, Iwould never agree with the enemy
, but we do, unknowingly,unwittingly.
And so in Genesis 1, god gaveus mankind power and authority
(13:37):
on this earth.
It's his earth, right.
He's the sovereign king, he'sthe Lord of all, for sure.
But in his sovereignty, forwhatever reason, he's given
mankind power and authority onthe earth.
And he said that in Genesis 1,and he reaffirmed that in the
New Testament, you know morespecifically in Matthew 16.
He said I give you the keys ofthe kingdom.
(13:59):
So we have power and authority.
Of course, he created us withfree will as well, so that we
could love, and that's anothertopic.
But he knew that we would useour free will to at times
disagree with him.
And Adam and Eve did that.
(14:19):
They disagreed with God andagreed with Satan, and that's
what empowered Satan and that'swhat empowers him today is our
agreement.
And again you would think, well,I would never agree with the
enemy.
But here's a simpleillustration that I think we've
all probably experienced.
(14:40):
You know, the Bible says thisis the day the Lord has made.
I'll rejoice and be glad in it.
So if we get up in the morningand say, god, I don't know what
today holds, but you hold todayand I trust you and I'm speaking
life into today and I'm justbelieving that you're going to
go ahead of me and that there'sgoing to be joy and peace, and
(15:02):
so'm just believing that you'regoing to go ahead of me and that
there's going to be joy andpeace, and so I just partner
with that in Jesus' name.
When you do that, the HolySpirit is there to help that
happen and there's a word forthat.
It's called prayer.
When we speak according toGod's will, god is there to help
make that happen.
That's biblical, that's thebasis of prayer.
(15:27):
Conversely, when we speak indisagreement with God's word,
the enemy is right there, thedevil's right there, to help
that happen.
So if we get up in the morningand say, oh, today's going to be
a horrible day, today's goingto stink, the boss is going to
be grouchy, kids are going to besick, the weather is going to
be horrible, or you knowwhatever.
(15:48):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We don't think anything of that, but that's the type of stuff
that the enemy can agree with.
You know, the Bible says inProverbs 18, 21, that death and
life are in the power of thetongue, and those who love it
will eat its fruit.
I just used to think that meant,you know, say nice things,
don't say bad things.
(16:08):
And it does mean that.
But it means much more.
It means there's power in ourwords.
That's why Jesus said watch thewords you speak.
There's no such thing as idlewords.
So when we speak in agreementwith God, he's there to help
that happen Again.
Consequently, if we speak inagreement with the enemy, he's
there to help that happen.
And there are people havingsupernaturally cruddy days
(16:34):
simply from the words of theirmouth.
And so, again, we wouldn'tthink that we would agree with
the enemy, but we do, and one ofthe main ways we do that is
simply from the words of ourmouth.
Dorsey Ross (16:48):
Yeah, I would never have thought about that either.
But you know, you're right, wedo and, like you're saying, with
the words that we say and thewords that we speak, we need to
be careful with what we say andwith what we speak.
Mike Manuel (17:04):
Yeah, because actually what you're doing then
and this is a really importantconcept and I talk about it in
my book Breaking Up With theEnemy is that we actually,
through that, give the enemylegal consent in our life.
There's this concept that Italk about in my book, that the
Bible talks about.
(17:24):
Jesus actually talked about it.
One of the places in Matthew 18is an example of that, and I
can talk about that in a minuteof this idea of legal consent or
opening doors to the enemy.
Again, the enemy can't dowhatever they want.
They just can't attack and dowhatever they want.
They're very limited, again, byour agreement.
(17:46):
But when we do agree, we'veopened a door to the enemy,
we've given them legal consent.
Now, that doesn't mean we getpossessed, because Christians
cannot be possessed.
The Holy Spirit possesses us,but we can be oppressed, we can
be influenced, and that's whatthe devil does.
When we agree with him, hegains access really to just
(18:11):
speak into our life and tries toinfluence.
His only power really isinfluence.
He lies to us hoping that we'llact on that lie or believe that
lie, and it just brings anxietyand fear and hopelessness and
just all kinds of junk.
And so one of the reasons Iwrote the book, based on a
(18:35):
couple decades of ministryexperiences, is it is possible
to get rid of that baggage.
There's so many people,christians, who are full of
anxiety and fear and livinglives of chaos and anger and
sexual dysfunction and just allkinds of things, hopelessness,
(18:57):
and again.
The list goes on and on.
I just think that's just normal, that's just life, that's just
part of life.
And Jesus didn't say that.
He said in John 10.10, I cameto give you an abundant life,
which doesn't mean every day isgoing to be easy, but every day
can have peace and hope and joy.
(19:18):
And so I think Christians havejust settled in their mind that,
well, this is just, this is theway it is, and we just got to
grind it out until Jesus comesback.
And that's not what he said andthat's not what he wants.
Dorsey Ross (19:34):
Now you mentioned about your book, you know,
breaking Up With the Enemy.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that book, the title
of it?
The title of it sounds like youknow.
It sounds like you know we'rein obviously we're not, but it
sounds like you know we're in aalmost like a dating
relationship with the enemy andwe're thinking up with them.
(19:55):
Can you tell us a little bitmore about the title and about
you know?
What made you write the book?
Mike Manuel (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, that.
So um it, yeah, it's not likewe're dating the devil, but it's
like like he kind of is, he'sinfluencing us and it's like
being in a dysfunctionalrelationship.
Uh, and it's there.
You know, sometimes you justit's, you don't know how to get
out of it.
You just don't know how to getout of it.
And of course, we don'tknowingly date the enemy, but we
(20:30):
do come under that influenceand a lot of people are in a
relationship with the enemy anddon't even know they're in a
relationship with him.
In other words, the only powerthe enemy has again is the power
of our agreement.
But the only way he works thatout in our life is to speak to
our mind, to lie to us, and hegives us a lot of truth when he
twists it, just enough to get us180 degrees out of whack.
(20:50):
And so a lot of people don'trecognize the lies of the enemy.
They just think it's themselvesthinking things through,
because the enemy speaks to ourconscience.
You know, it's not some scarydeep voice from the pit of hell,
it's a voice because the devilspeaks to our conscience.
(21:12):
It sounds like us just thinkingthings through, and I'm sure a
lot of you know the listenersout there have had conversations
with themselves.
You probably have, I have.
We hear basically three voicesother than other people.
We hear our own voice.
You know we think thingsthrough, but then there's the
voice of God that speaks to usand there's the voice of the
(21:36):
enemy.
And I think a lot of Christiansdon't recognize either.
They don't recognize the voiceof God and they don't recognize
the voice of God and they don'trecognize the voice of the enemy
.
They just think it's themthinking things through.
But because God speaks to ourconscience, again it sounds like
us because it's not audible.
It's just these thoughts thatcome in, but a lot of times
(21:58):
they're God thoughts, but a lotof times they're enemy thoughts.
Enemy is speaking to our mind,you know, getting us to act in a
way that's not good or fillingus with despair and hopelessness
, like you're not lovable,you're not worthy, nobody, you
don't count, you're not valuableto other people, and it goes on
(22:20):
and on and on, and the enemyjust constantly speaks that to
people, hoping that they'llbelieve that.
And a lot of people do, andthat's what brings the baggage
into their life Anxiety, fear,hopelessness, all that stuff.
Dorsey Ross (22:36):
You know you mentioned about those voices
that the enemy speaks into us.
I remember he does at times aswell.
You know, still to this day hedoes, and you know I think that
goes back to what I mentionedbefore that he wants to still
kill and destroy us.
But I remember, you know timeswhere he would say you know
you're telling me that I was nogood.
(22:59):
You know I wasn't going to makeit in this life.
You're ugly.
You know no woman is going tolove you.
You know all those voicescoming into my head and I had to
realize and I had to say hey,you know, get behind me, satan.
You know I'm going to believewhat God is telling me.
Mike Manuel (23:20):
Right, so you've experienced that.
I think every Christian hasexperienced some degree of that,
but most of them don'trecognize it.
They don't recognize the voiceof the enemy.
Dorsey Ross (23:36):
Why do you think that is?
Mike Manuel (23:39):
Well, again, because you know he's speaking
to our conscience and we justthink it's us thinking things
through.
And once you know so that's whyI think this book is so helpful
, again based on 20 years ofministry and doing seminars in
this line of deliverance is oncepeople kind of awaken
(24:04):
themselves to the tactics of theenemy.
They realize wait, so thosearen't my own thoughts, that's
the enemy.
Putting those thoughts in thereand then like oh, okay, and the
more you are aware of that, themore you begin to recognize
that.
And it's the same with thevoice of God.
The voice of God can be audibleand I think maybe I heard that
(24:27):
once, but really most peoplethat's not the experience.
The Bible says it's this stillsmall voice and again God speaks
to our conscience and again itsounds like us.
But it took me a while toreally begin to recognize the
voice of God.
And even today it's like, okay,god, was that you, or is that
(24:51):
me just thinking, or is that you?
And if that's you, I'd likesome confirmation.
And so I think it's more subtlethan we maybe expect and I
think that's why people miss it,because they're waiting.
Whether it's from God or thedevil, they're waiting, you know
, like say it's God.
They're waiting for this big,boomy voice from heaven, you
(25:13):
know, and that almost neverhappens.
I suppose it could, but that'snot generally how God speaks.
Elijah had that same experience,but the same with the enemy.
It's not some scary figure thatshows up in your bedroom with
horns and a tail and a pitchfork.
(25:33):
It sounds like the voice ofreason in our head, like did you
see the way she rolled her eyesat you?
Are you going to put up withthat?
You need to go tell her rightnow just what you think.
You need to put her in herplace, because if you don't do
that, she's going to keep doingthat and rolling over people.
So you just give her a piece ofyour mind right now.
You go and blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
I mean there's just thing afterthing after thing that the
(25:56):
enemy does.
It tried to break uprelationships, does try to break
up relationships, try to loadus down with hopelessness, just
speaking to us and trying toinfluence us to act in a way
that would be in disagreementwith God.
Dorsey Ross (26:12):
And I guess the way we get over that and the way we
deal with that is obviously inreading of the Bible and, you
know, studying the Bible, andalso in then asking God to help
us to distinguish those voicesin our head and helping us to
(26:33):
you know, know whose voice isactually speaking to us.
Mike Manuel (26:39):
Right, you're right .
The more time you spend inGod's Word, reading His Word,
the more you learn His characterand nature.
And the Bible says the HolySpirit actually speaks to you
while you're reading the Word,helps you understand it.
So that's a really importantthing.
But what I found I think here'ssomething that's in my book
(27:00):
that's really missing.
What I found I think here'ssomething that's in my book
that's really missing is goingback to our power and authority
that God gave us, the same powerand authority that kind of
opened the doors to the enemy,gave them the legal consent.
That power and authority camefrom us and our words.
So we need to use that samepower and authority to shut the
(27:24):
lying mouth of the enemy, to getrid of their influence in our
life.
And that's one thing I didn'tknow, that's one thing that came
to me later and that's how I'vereally been able to help people
.
So getting rid of the enemy alot of people refer to that as
deliverance, which is in theBible like literally means
(27:46):
rescue, and and Jesus saidthat's you know Matthew 10,
seven and eight that we wouldhave to do that in the Lord's
prayer.
He said deliver us from theevil one.
So so we know that's a thing.
So how do you do that?
And it's really what I found iswell, actually it's a
three-step process, but thefirst two steps are dealing with
(28:08):
the devil.
The last one is getting filledup with Jesus.
But the first step is breakingthat agreement with the enemy.
You have to break thatagreement Now.
I don't want to take a lot oftime, but in Matthew 18, jesus
is telling the parable of theunmerciful servant.
There's a guy that runs up abig debt in the kingdom.
(28:31):
He works for the king and theking calls him in and says, hey,
you ran up this big debt, payit back.
But it was unpayable, it wastoo much money.
He says I can't pay it, butplease have mercy on me.
And the king did, didn't throwhim in jail.
(28:52):
But then that same servant goesout and has another guy thrown
in jail that owes him a smallamount of money.
And Jesus, his main focus hereis teaching on forgiveness, and
he's teaching here and elsewherein the Bible that we, as
believers, we need to forgiveeveryone, no matter what they've
done.
And that's difficult and again,that's maybe a topic we can
(29:14):
tackle.
Another day is forgiveness, butwe're called to forgive
everyone.
And what Jesus says in Matthew18, down about 35, well, 33, 34,
35, it says the king.
(29:35):
Because the guy didn't forgive,the king had him thrown, turned
him over to the jailer to betortured.
And then in verse 35, jesussays and that's what my heavenly
father will do to you if youdon't forgive your brother from
your heart.
Now I want to be really crystalclear.
God is not a jailer, he's not atorturer, he's the giver of
every good gift, he's the authorof life.
(29:55):
But there is a jailer and thereis a torturer, and it's the
enemy, it's the devil and hisarmy of fallen angels.
And what God is saying is I'mparaphrasing what Jesus is
saying in this parable he'ssaying you need to forgive
people, and if you don't forgivepeople, you're not agreeing
(30:16):
with me, you're staying indisagreement.
If you will not forgive someone.
And if you stay in disagreement, you are opening the door to
the jailer, to the torturer.
And I can tell you, in 23 yearsof pastoring, I've helped
hundreds of people, maybe athousand, I don't know.
(30:39):
Work through unforgivenessthough.
Work through unforgivenessbecause it's such a huge open
door to the enemy, because ifyou willingly stay in
unforgiveness, you are indisagreement with God, and when
you're in disagreement with Godyou're in agreement with the
enemy and it's your agreementwith the enemy that opens those
(30:59):
doors.
So I would say thatunforgiveness is the biggest
open door to the enemy.
So one of the keys in the bookthat we walk through it becomes
more of a manual.
The first several chapters arean explanation.
In my book, breaking Up With theEnemy, the first few chapters
are an explanation of you know,how do we get here?
Why do we even have to dealwith this?
(31:19):
But the last part of the bookis really more of a manual to
walk through.
How do you close that door?
How do you cancel that legalconsent?
And then so that's step onecancel that consent we gave the
enemy.
Step two is then kick them outIn the name of Jesus.
You got to go Again.
We're not possessed, but we'retaking that authority, like
(31:40):
Jesus told us in Luke 10, 19.
He says I've given youauthority to trample on snakes
and scorpions and to overcomeall the power of the enemy.
Nothing will harm you.
So we take that authority, wekick them out and then the third
step is to fill up with thegood stuff that comes from Jesus
, because Jesus said if yousweep the house clean and don't
(32:01):
fill it back up, the enemy'sgoing to come back seven times
stronger Again.
We're not talking possession Imean, that's a real thing, but
not with believers.
We're talking oppression.
We're talking influence, and soreally that's the crux of the
book helping people walk throughthat step by step, topic by
(32:28):
topic.
Dorsey Ross (32:28):
And in the other book, torn, you wrote about how
many Christians mix the Old andNew Covenants.
Mike Manuel (32:38):
What, does that look like and what's the problem
with that?
Yeah, so I realized that I wasmixing a lot of the old covenant
with the new covenant.
So the whole Bible—I want to beclear on this as well—the whole
Bible is God's Word and it'sfor us today, but we're
(32:59):
not—there are parts of the Biblethat we are no longer under.
Now we need to understand it,but we're not under the
Levitical law, for example.
Jesus has fulfilled the law sothat we don't have to, and so
the new covenant is differentthan the old covenant.
(33:19):
We're under the new covenant,not the old, and so— and so I
think a lot of people mix things.
You know one of the things.
I guess that when I was younger,going to the Lutheran church, I
remember asking my mom, becausesome of my friends in school
(33:42):
went to the Catholic church andthey had priests.
It's like, mom, how come wedon't have a priest?
She's like, well, we don't needone.
Well, why not?
She goes.
I don't know.
So you know things—okay, so whydo some churches have priests
and some don't?
But really, the question thatgot me and really was why I
(34:02):
wrote the book Torn is okay, theNew Testament says we're no
longer under the law, that we'vebeen set free of the law, we're
under the Holy Spirit.
So if we're not under the lawand the Ten Commandments are
referred to as the law, then arewe under the Ten Commandments?
(34:23):
And for years, as a pastor, Icouldn't answer that question
because it's like well, ofcourse we're under the Ten
Commandments.
It sounds like heresy to sayyou're not under the Ten
Commandments.
Right and technically it is,but it's like okay, but so it's
not right to say we're not underthe Ten Commandments.
But yet the Bible says we're nolonger under the law.
(34:45):
So how do we view the TenCommandments?
And I didn't have a good answerfor that and I really had to
research that.
And the answer to that isreally what caused me to think
okay, now what other areas arewe kind of confused about as far
(35:05):
as the Old Covenant and the NewCovenant?
And so I cover, I don't know,11, 12, or 13 different areas
where we can get confused there.
Dorsey Ross (35:16):
And thank you for explaining.
You know the Old and NewCovenant.
You know because some peoplemay, you know, not understand or
not know what that actuallymeans.
Mike Manuel (35:29):
Yeah, yeah, and when I was—so it all started.
You know, when I'm, I suppose,third grade, my parents got me a
Bible and I just startedreading in it.
But I didn't understandthat—the between the old
covenant and the new covenant.
So you start reading things,like you know, men shouldn't cut
(35:52):
their hair from the temples andyou can't eat shellfish, or you
know all these different sortsof like what, why are we not
doing that?
It's in the Bible and so ittook me.
So you just kind of ignore it,like, well, I don't understand
it, so I'm going to ignore it,and it takes a few years—it took
me a few years to get thatfigured out.
(36:14):
But so there might be some ofthe listeners like, well, what
about that Ten Commandment thing?
I just want to just talk aboutthat just really briefly.
Here's what I found Everythingin the New Covenant really is a
higher standard than the oldcovenant, because we're led by
the Holy Spirit now, not byrules and regulations etched out
(36:40):
on a stone or a piece of paper.
So, for example, the TenCommandments says so.
For example, the TenCommandments says do not lie.
So okay, if I don't lie, Ifollow that commandment.
Good, all right.
But the New Covenant says be aspeaker of the truth, speak the
(37:02):
truth in love.
So that doesn't sound likedifference, but it is different.
So Old Covenant is don't lie.
New Covenant is speak the truth.
Okay.
So that's different, that's ahigher standard.
Old Covenant says don't steal,All right, the Ten Commandments
Do not steal, all right.
(37:23):
So if I don't steal, I'm good,I'm obeying the commandment.
But the new covenant says begenerous and give to people
generously.
That's a higher standard.
The Bible says do not kill, donot murder.
More specifically, do notmurder Like, okay, good, I
(37:46):
haven't murdered anybody, so I'mfulfilling the commandments.
But the new covenant says ifyou even think about that, if
you even think poorly aboutsomeone, that's the same as
murder.
It's a higher standard.
So we're called to speak lifeinto people.
So, old covenant don't murderthem.
New covenant speak life to them.
(38:06):
So you kind of see how the newcovenant is a higher standard.
So are we under the TenCommandments?
Well, that's not even a goodquestion.
We're actually over the TenCommandments.
We're held to a higher standard, with the Holy Spirit speaking
to our heart and leading andguiding us, and so that turned
(38:28):
out to kind of be a long answer.
But I just want to sharesomething with your listeners
that confused me for years.
Dorsey Ross (38:37):
Yeah, thank you for that.
You recently seen an influx ofpeople under 40 in your church
40 in your church.
Why is that happening and howcan other churches experience
growth in that?
Mike Manuel (38:57):
demographic.
Yeah, because for years andyears it was a lot of churches
like well, we're all the youngpeople and it was the baby
boomers age, churches, aged, andin our church we've just been
really blessed to have a lot ofyoung people.
A lot of them are married withchildren, some of them are
(39:19):
single, a lot of Gen Zers singleand I'm 63 years old, I'm an
old guy with gray hair and Idon't have pointy hair and I
don't have ripped jeans, but wehave all these young people
coming and I think it's a couplereasons.
You know where we speak thetruth in an understandable,
(39:42):
clear way and unapologetically.
But there's also just thepresence of the Holy Spirit
there.
You know you can speak truthapart from the Holy Spirit,
right, but when you—this isgoing to—I don't want to make
(40:04):
this sound like, you know, newAge or weird, but when there's
an atmosphere of the Holy Spiritand people walk into that, a
lot of them don't recognize that, but like there's something
different here and it's notagain because I'm trying to be
relevant and comb my hair rightway it's like no, we're just
passionate about the presence ofGod.
(40:25):
We're passionate about Hispresence, his power, his truth.
So we're preaching truth, butwe're also allowing time just to
be in the presence of Godthrough worship and without a
lot of, I don't know,religiosity I guess that's the
(40:47):
word.
There's so much religiositythat has crept into churches
over the years and that doesn'tdo much for people, and that's
what Jesus came against.
He didn't die for religion, hedied for people.
Right, as we get to the end,one of the last's available to
(41:32):
us to work through us.
That's something I didn't—I mean, I read in the Bible, but for
years, even as a pastor, Ididn't see a lot of God's power.
I mean there was a lot of truth, and there's truth in power,
for sure.
But you know, for example,matthew 10, 7, and 8, jesus said
(42:00):
to those who believe he saidheal the sick, raise the dead,
cleanse the lepers, cast outdemons freely of receive, freely
give.
Well, you read that.
And it's like heal the sick,raise the dead, cleanse the
lepers, cast out demons freelyof receive, freely give.
Well, you read that, and it'slike heal the sick, like what?
And it's like okay, well, I'llskip on to something else,
because, like, I can't heal thesick, but actually Jesus said
(42:23):
you can and I want you to.
And in John 14.6, 14.12,.
He says the same things I doyou'll do, and he talks so much
about, you know, thesemiraculous things that work in
the lives of a believer, and foryears like, see, I'd read that
(42:44):
because it's all over the NewTestament.
You read that and it's like, isthat for today?
And it's like I don't see whereit's not for today.
I don't see anywhere in theBible that says, well, you don't
need that anymore.
It's not in the Bible.
And so it was kind of achallenge to me.
And when I just begin to stepout and pray like the disciples
(43:07):
modeled prayer for us,specifically in, say, areas of
healing, I just all of a suddenGod's power just began to flow
and people were getting healedand saved and delivered and it
was just His power.
I guess if there's one word,it's power, and I think there's
so many Christians kind ofliving a powerless Christianity,
(43:33):
and so I think that's thebiggest biblical principle that
really has impacted me.
Dorsey Ross (43:42):
Is that living like you were saying, living a
powerless life, or not seeinghealings, or not seeing miracles
take place?
Is that a lack of faith or alack of doubt from what God is
telling us that we have thepower to do?
Mike Manuel (44:05):
I think it's all the above, although it doesn't
take—he says the faith is thesize of a mustard seed.
Well, that's not big.
I think it's been, honestly, alot of bad teaching in the
church, like, oh, that's not fortoday, and I'm like—and I was
in a church for 12 years beforeI was a pastor that taught that
it's not for today and I'm like,okay, and I just took that.
(44:27):
I just like, well, it's not fortoday.
And I'm like, okay, and I justtook that.
I just like, well, it's not fortoday.
But then when God called me tobe a pastor and I'm doing Bible
school and Bible college andstudying on my own, I'm like I
can't find that anywhere.
And I know people use 1Corinthians 13,.
When everything comes intoperfection and when the perfect
comes, you know those thingswill pass away.
(44:50):
But like that's not what that'stalking about.
That's not what that's talkingabout at all.
It's really bad hermeneutics.
So I just honestly, I justcouldn't find anywhere in the
Bible where it said you don'tneed this.
In fact, I found the opposite.
Jesus said no, you need thisstuff.
You don't need this.
In fact, I found the opposite.
Jesus said no, you need thisstuff.
You need the supernatural powerof the Holy Spirit working in
(45:12):
your life.
You need that as you witness.
So some of it's bad teachingand a lot of it's just fear.
Like okay, so I learned I couldsee the biblical truth.
But now I'm fearful to step outand do that, because what if it
doesn't happen?
And what I realized, that wasjust my own junk, you know,
(45:36):
because I used to pray prayersas a pastor.
I called them namby-pambyprayers and I mean I didn't pray
these words, but it was kind of.
This attitude was oh you know,somebody came up, say, after
church and wanted prayer forhealing.
I would pray something.
I mean, I didn't pray thesewords, but the attitude was oh
(45:56):
God, if you're not too tired andif we worship hard enough today
and if Cindy here has been agood girl and you want to heal
her, great.
But if not, you know, we'll gohome and eat roast beef and you
know, whatever you want to do,and that's not a biblical prayer
.
And I knew that the prayer wasas modeled by the disciples, in
(46:19):
the name of Jesus, get up andwalk.
And I'm like, but what if I saythat?
What if I speak that and itdoesn't happen?
Well then I realize well that'slack of faith.
And so I can tell you when Istarted doing that was May of
2010.
I saw a gal with two herniateddiscs 32 years old, could hardly
(46:42):
walk, came up to the front ofthe church after service and
wanted prayer.
Came up to the front of thechurch after service and wanted
prayer and what came out of mymouth was in the name of Jesus,
I command these herniated discsto be healed in Jesus' name.
In the name of Jesus, I speakcomplete and total healing.
I couldn't believe that cameout of my mouth, but that's how
the disciples taught us to pray,and she was instantly healed
(47:07):
and it remains so today.
She lives in the same town I donow, and that really kicked off
a whole, really a new life forme.
Not that I'm some you know TVfaith healer with big hair and a
(47:32):
white suit, but I'm simplyproclaiming the truth of God's
Word and following what Jesusasked us to do and told us to do
.
And not everybody I pray forgets healed, but most do, and
honestly I just say it's kind ofcrazy.
And so what I've been teachingin the church like in our church
, one of the things I teach is.
There's good weird and badweird.
There's a lot of bad weirdthings that happen in a church.
(47:54):
You know, I personally I thinkhandling snakes is kind of bad,
weird, but whatever.
There's just some bad weirdthings that are mostly fleshly
manifestations of people.
But then there's some thingsthat are from God that are like,
wow, that's weird.
We do a lot of work in India.
(48:16):
I've been there three times.
The first time I went to India,a guy came up at one of our
outdoor events and he had abroken leg.
I mean it was dangling,eight-hour bus ride from the
nearest hospital.
We're way out in the villagesand a Hindu guy, mostly Hindu
people around, but I'd spokenabout Jesus, I'd given them a
(48:37):
gospel message.
Many had responded forsalvation and I said you know,
jesus is alive today and if youneed healing he wants to heal.
You Come up up and we'll praythat this guy comes up.
And I saw that dangly leg andI'm like I don't know.
But I just kneeled down and putmy hands on it and said in the
(48:58):
name of Jesus, I command thisleg to be healed.
And it popped right back intoplace, swear to God.
And he went off dancing andrunning and the village just
went nuts.
Now, if you don't believe that,I understand that, because if I
wouldn't have been there myselfI wouldn't have believed it.
But it happened, and otherthings have happened like that
before.
Like that's—how I can say thisthat's weird, but it's good.
(49:23):
Weird and it's stuff that Jesussaid we should be doing.
But I think there's a lot ofreasons why we don't do it.
But it's been a real I don'tknow, I guess change in my life
to see God's power, because heloves people.
That's why he's doing it.
(49:43):
And he kind of spoke that to me.
He said when you see thesehealings, make sure you tell
people that I'm real and that Icare, and so I'm always sure to
do that.
So anyway, that's one of thebig principles that has changed
my life and gives me even morepassion to minister to people.
Dorsey Ross (50:08):
Right, and I think sometimes, when it comes to
specifically healing, I think italso depends on God's timing,
maybe it's not God's timing forthat person to be healed at that
(50:29):
moment.
Mike Manuel (50:30):
Yes, and that's a thing, and I also know that God
uses doctors and nurses to heal,and I'm very thankful for that.
God used a doctor to save mylife several years ago, and so
you know I'd never discount thateither.
But I think a lot of times wewait until we're desperate
before we pray to God forhealing.
(50:50):
Like you know, we wait untilwe're on our deathbed.
Well, let's just really getaround and pray.
Well, how about you did thatfirst?
Or on your way to the doctor,maybe pray?
Dorsey Ross (50:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
One other last question I'dlike to ask is can you give us
an encouraging word to mylisteners?
Mike Manuel (51:11):
Yeah, I would just say if—go after Jesus, don't go
after religion.
There are a lot of greatchurches out there that preach
Jesus with clarity and thesimplicity that Jesus originally
(51:35):
had.
Don't let bad experiences withreligious people keep you away
from a real healthy relationshipwith Jesus.
You away from a real healthyrelationship with Jesus and the
other encouragement, especiallyas we're, you know, talking
about this idea of deliverance.
(51:56):
My book, breaking Up With theEnemy is don't just live like
anxiety and fear and chaos andanger is normal and accepted.
(52:17):
There is a way.
Jesus says we have power andauthority over that and you just
need to take the steps to dothat.
Cancel your legal consent withthe enemy, kick the enemy out
and fill yourself up with thepeace and presence of Jesus.
Dorsey Ross (52:26):
And where can people buy your book and connect
with you?
Mike Manuel (52:31):
Yeah, the best thing my books are available on
Amazon.
I think they're available otherplaces too, but Amazon's, of
course, the big one.
So Breaking Up With the Enemyis the book on Amazon.
But I also have a website thathas not only links to those
books, but I have a lot of.
I have free e-books.
I have free courses.
I have some paid for courses.
(52:52):
I have my blog.
It's modaministriescom.
M-o-t-a stands for ministry oneto another.
Modaministriescom is my websiteand there's tons of free
resources on there, and ifpeople want to get a hold of me,
they can contact me throughthat.
So that's the way to go ismodeministriescom.
Dorsey Ross (53:14):
Awesome.
Well, Pastor Mike, thank you somuch for coming on the show
today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
Mike Manuel (53:21):
Well, it's great to have the conversation with you,
dorsey, and thank you for yourpodcast and what you're doing to
help spread the kingdom throughyour podcast.
Amen.
Dorsey Ross (53:33):
Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for
coming on, for listening and forsharing this podcast, and
please go and check out PastorMike's website.
And until next time, god bless,bye-bye.
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