November 19, 2025 • 30 mins
If you’ve ever wondered why faith can feel like a tug-of-war inside your own chest, you’re not broken—you’re normal. We sit with Brad Church, retired business analyst and author of The Stranger’s Conflict, to explore the daily battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and why grace is power for change rather than a pass for old habits. This is a grounded, Scripture-rich conversation that takes shame off the table and replaces it with practical hope.
We trace a clear arc through Romans 6–8: the real struggle Paul confesses, the honest gap between desire and action, and the liberating promise of no condemnation in Christ. Brad shares candid stories of slow deliverance, the guilt that stalks repeated failure, and the moment-by-moment choices that invited the Holy Spirit to shift his patterns. We talk about the image of God—body, soul, and spirit—as a framework for understanding why the Spirit pulls us toward life while the flesh clings to old comfort, and how worship, Scripture, and community rewire our loves over time.
You’ll hear how Paul’s journey from law to grace offers a path beyond legalism and self-reliance, and why surrender is not passivity but aligned action. Expect practical takeaways: how to feed your spiritual life, how to handle discouragement without hiding, and how to replace self-condemnation with honest prayer and steady habits. If you’re hungry for a faith that meets you in the mess and moves you toward freedom, this conversation will help you breathe again.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:15):
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DorseyUs show.
Today we have a guest with us.
His name is Brad.
He is a retired business analystand Christian who explores the
struggle between sin and theHoly Spirit in his book, The
(00:40):
Strangers Conflict.
He emphasizes God's grace as thepath to purpose and victory.
Fred, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Thank you for having me, Dorcy.
It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Absolutely.
I always like to open up my showwith an icebreaker question.
And today's icebreaker questionis what's your favorite way to
spend a day off?
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Oh boy.
I would say one of my favoriteways is to just hop in the car.
Um I'm about an hour and 20minutes away from the Oregon
coast and uh just turning onsome worship music and driving
over to the coast and stoppingat places and walking on the
(01:31):
beach.
It's it's a wonderful way for meto restore my soul and come back
home and ready to work somemore.
SPEAKER_04 (01:38):
There you go.
How do personal struggles shapeone's faith journey?
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Oh man.
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Um I think they shape our faith journey in a in
a lot of ways.
Um they'll they'll challenge ourmisconceptions.
Um for one.
Um, you know, I think I think alot of people come to faith in
Christ and think that all oftheir problems are instantly
going to be solved.
And um when we start goingthrough struggles, we begin to
(02:12):
to question well, gee, was wasmy decision to believe in Christ
really valid?
And for me personally, as I'vegone through struggles and and
grappled with those questions,there's been just that
affirmation of the Holy Spiritinside that says, yeah, your
faith is valid.
It was your expectation that wasoff, you know.
(02:35):
And uh God never promised thatthat this life would be easy.
And He shapes our He He shapesour character and deepens our
faith as we go through thosestruggles and and recognize that
that affirmation of the HolySpirit from within uh the that
frequently contradicts our ourhuman interpretation of our
(03:01):
struggles.
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Yeah.
How can believers find strengthamidst their inner or internal
conflict?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Turning to God's word is is the first step.
You know, everything we knowabout Jesus is contained in the
book of that Bible, right?
And uh understanding scriptureand and understanding how it
applies to our lives in inpractical terms is a great first
step.
Um another step is is justregardless of what's going on in
(03:38):
life, um, if we can if we canturn our our thoughts and our
praise to God and recognize Godfor who he is and his greatness,
regardless of our situation andand how confusing um struggles
can be sometimes, uh that'sthat's huge.
Um there's a a psalm where Davidsaid, uh, even though you cast
(04:04):
me into hell, I will praise you.
And that's a real statement, youknow, of of recognizing God's
worthiness of our praise,regardless of of what our
circumstances are in life.
And I think a third thing thathelps us is just fellowshipping
with other believers who cancome alongside and say, man, you
(04:24):
are not alone in your struggle.
Uh I know exactly what you'regoing through.
I've been there too.
Um, and let's walk through thistogether.
SPEAKER_02 (04:32):
Yeah.
When I think about, you know,the struggles and the conflicts
that, you know, that I thinkthat we're gonna be talking
about today, I think about, youknow, Romans, you know, six,
seven, and eight, where it talksabout, you know, the inner man,
the the Sing Man, and how we,you know, conf how we battle
(04:53):
with the sinful man and how we,you know, know that, you know,
we're not supposed to sing, butyet we we do it anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (05:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
And then in real in Romans 8, he says, therefore
there's now no condemnation forthose who are in uh crisis.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
That's right.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
Now you wrote a book as I mentioned in your um
preview there about this uhcalled The Strangers Conflict.
Why do you think this topic isso important to believers today?
And what is the title about?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
I I think it's an important uh concept because um
because it's it's a reality ofour daily lives.
And I know for me, you know, I Icame to a point in my faith walk
where I said, I'm supposed to bea believer.
Why, why do I still strugglewith with lustful thoughts?
(05:52):
Why do I still struggle with youknow dishonesty?
Why do I still struggle withthis stuff that that isn't
supposed to be a part of mylife, right?
Isn't supposed to be part of mylife.
And um I wanted to understand uhthat struggle.
And and you know, lo and behold,uh through my my studies, I I
(06:12):
found that that even Paul,right, the great apostle Paul,
struggled with that, where hetalks about that in Romans 5, uh
towards the end of that chapter.
He he says, there's things Iwant to do that that I just
don't do.
And then there's things I don'twant to do.
I find myself doing them.
Woe is me.
You know, who's going to saveme?
(06:32):
And his conclusion was thank GodJesus Christ has saved me.
And so the the title, TheStranger's Conflict, it talks
about that conflict between ourold sin nature and the
regenerated spirit within us,uh, and the Holy Spirit working
within to conform us to theimage of Christ.
(06:53):
And I get a lot of questionsabout why the stranger.
Um, and the answer is verysimple that that uh even from
the patriarchs, uh, the faithchapter in Hebrews, chapter 11,
uh as the author of Hebrews wentthrough those people towards the
end of that chapter, he said,and all of these people believed
(07:14):
in hope, not seeing what theyhad been promised, but they were
they were um living this life asstrangers and aliens, sojourners
in this world and hoping for abetter country.
And Jesus himself, you know,said to his disciples, um, you
are from the earth and I am fromheaven.
(07:35):
And basically he was saying, I'ma stranger here.
And the apostle Paul said thatwhen we come to faith in Christ,
we become citizens of heaven.
We're no longer citizens of thisworld.
So that that strangers theme isis very common and it's uh it's
something that I picked up on uhand really wanted to focus on uh
because as followers of Jesus,we are to be living a different
(07:58):
type of life.
You know, we have different setsof values than the world around
us.
SPEAKER_02 (08:04):
Do you think that there's certain sins that I
mean, even though that we'llwe'll always sin, we'll always
have that sinful nature withinus, and we'll always deal with,
you know, the sanctification of,you know, God, you know, helping
us to get rid of that sin.
But do you think that there's,you know, um maybe a sin in your
(08:28):
book or a conflict, a sinfulconflict that you deal with in
your book that you can say, yes,we can get rid of that of that
issue in our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Yeah, you know, Paul said there's a lot of people
that that uh believe in God, butthey don't believe in the power
of God, right?
And and I think, you know,recognizing that we have that
sin nature and that God's gracecovers our sin and forgives us
for our sin does not give uslicense to sin.
(09:03):
God calls us to be holy, right?
And um I think the key thing iswhen when we struggle with those
things, when we turn to God ingenuine repentance, there's
forgiveness there.
And in I think in the book I usethe illustration uh about
smoking cigarettes.
(09:24):
Um when I first came to Christ,I smoked cigarettes way back,
you know, in my early 20s.
And I tried and tried and triedand tried and tried and tried
for a couple of years to stopsmoking.
I did everything I possiblycould to try to quit.
And I could not stop smoking.
I was bound.
And I felt guilty, I feltashamed.
And um we might not say smokingis a big sin, but it's, you
(09:48):
know, violating the temple ofGod.
And I think, you know, it it isa sin to some degree.
And I think this illustrates apoint that there came a point in
time where I traveled to LosAngeles uh with a youth group
and was in a situation for whereone week I could not smoke
cigarettes.
(10:08):
Was not allowed.
I wouldn't be alone.
I was, you know, I was stayingin other people's houses, there
was no smoking allowed.
And I left a pack of cigaretteson my TV at home with 19
cigarettes in it.
I went down to LA for a week.
God called me to go to Biblecollege during that week.
I came home and I threw thatpack of cigarettes away and I
(10:30):
was delivered.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Now, I struggled with that sin for years.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
And in God's timing, he delivered me.
I think that's that's the samewith a lot of sin.
You know, some people come tofaith in Christ and they are
instantly delivered from many,many things.
Other people struggle withthings for years, and and
there's probably things in ourlives that we that we all
struggle with.
(10:57):
And we can we can continue to dowhat Adam and Eve did when they
sinned and go hide in the bushesand cover ourselves with fig
leaves, or we can come beforeGod in sincere repentance and
openness and say, God, I'mstruggling with this and I
cannot conquer it on my own.
And sometimes God will moveinstantly, and sometimes for
(11:21):
whatever reason, he will let usum struggle with that for a
season.
Um, but whether it's in thislife or or in the next, God will
deliver us from that sin.
And I think the greatesttemptation when we're struggling
with those things is to numberone, hide from God and and
number two, feel like we're notworthy of his grace because we
(11:43):
can't overcome it.
And it's it's just not about us,it's about Jesus overcoming
those things in us.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Right.
I read in your background thatyou came to Christ at the age of
six.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:59):
What was that experience like?
I mean, that's really young to,you know, accept him as your
Lord and Savior.
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Well, there's a funny story behind that.
Um, I went to Bible college umin the early 1980s, and and one
of my professors uh stood upbefore the class one morning and
he said, if you can't tell methe exact moment that you were
saved, then I don't believeyou're saved.
And I sat in that class as as uhprobably a 24-year-old at that
(12:31):
time.
And I'm thinking, when did Ifirst come to faith in Christ?
When did I first and I struggledwith that question for for
several years?
And as I thought about it onemorning, I I realized, you know,
the first moment I believed wasat the age of six.
I was in a Sunday school classin the upstairs room of the
(12:51):
Methodist church in JunctionCity, Oregon, where my family
attended.
And my mother was teaching aclass and she was talking about
Jesus.
And, you know, she had theflannel board up there, and she
was talking about that.
And I remember a very specificmoment where in my heart I said,
I believe that.
And that in that moment I wassaved.
SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
You say in your book that understanding how God made
us in his image is vital tounderstand the conflict you
discuss in the book.
Why is understanding how Godmade us so important?
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Well, if we go back to Genesis chapter one and two,
where God created Adam and Eve,um you know, he formed Adam out
of the dust of the ground.
And the scripture says that Godbreathed into Adam, and God is
spirit.
So when God breathed into Adam,he was breathing spirit into
Adam, and Adam became a livingsoul.
(13:51):
So Adam was physical, and he hadGod's spirit within him because
God breathed it into him, and hebecame a living soul.
And so we're we're really atripart being of a physical
being, uh spiritual being and asoul that that is the unique
(14:15):
individual of us.
And um God created us to haverelationship with himself.
God is spirit, and if we'regoing to have relationship with
God, it's going to be on aspiritual basis.
Because while we see um Jesus inphysical form during his earthly
ministry, and there are severaloccasions in the Old Testament
(14:38):
where he appears to Abraham, heappeared to Joshua and a couple
other people, I think.
Um, we don't see him physically,right?
We have a spiritual relationshipwith God.
Well, God wasn't done withcreation when he created Adam,
he also created Eve, and hecreated her in much the same
way, took a physical part ofAdam, formed Eve, and then I
(15:02):
believe that process of creationfor Eve, even though it's not
specifically stated in theBible, was the same that God
breathed life into Eve, and shebecame a living soul.
Well, he created them for eachother.
So we were created to haverelationship with other human
beings, and we are created tohave relationship with God.
So the physical part uh islargely how do we relate to
(15:27):
other human beings, but Ibelieve there's also a spiritual
aspect to our relationships.
Um, and in, you know, in thefall, that was all distorted and
blown away.
Uh, we lost that relationshipwith God because we were cut off
from the Garden of Eden and inthe spirit of human beings
(15:47):
ceased to be connected with God.
And so understanding how we'remade, body, soul, and spirit, to
relate to both human beings andto God, I think is crucial to
understanding that conflict.
Because when the Holy Spiritcomes into us when we believe in
Christ, then we now have thatregenerated spirit that wants
(16:12):
relationship with God, and yetthe sin nature is bound in the
flesh and fights against that.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Maybe you answered it in but how do we how do we
how why is it important for usto see how God made us in his
image?
Why is that why is that animportant aspect of this topic?
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
Okay.
Um I think we need to understandthat that that desire to run
from God, that desire to hidefrom God, that desire to rebel
against God comes from theflesh.
It comes from um the sin naturethat's bound in the flesh, and
that it will always be with usas long as this flesh lives.
(17:01):
Um on the on the flip side ofthat, understanding that my
relationship with God isspiritual, I need to feed my my
spiritual life.
And we do that by understandingGod's word, being in God's word,
uh worshiping God, spending timewith God in prayer, um, and
(17:22):
fellowshipping with otherbelievers who can um help
influence our spiritual lives.
And and I think so many of us,you know, just go about living
our lives and and we don'trecognize sometimes that that we
need to stop and take the timeto cultivate that spiritual
(17:45):
relationship with Christ.
It doesn't just happen, youknow, it takes work.
It's it's like it's like growinga garden for anybody out there
that that grows garden, youknow, you you plant the seed and
weeds come up with the seed, andyou need to pull the weeds and
and water the seed and make sureit's in a good uh a place that's
(18:06):
got life.
It takes effort.
And so do our spiritual lives,um, knowing Christ, following
Christ, because um to donothing, uh it seems like the
the inertia, the energy is is ina downward spile away from God.
(18:28):
And if we want to grow closer toGod, then it takes effort to
feed our spirits and andcultivate our spiritual lives.
SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
What was the purpose of writing writing the book and
what do you hope people get outof it?
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Um you know, the the book was was written largely out
of my own experience or my owndesire to understand this.
Um and as as I began to figurethis out and and listen to
teaching out there in inChristendom, um, I realized that
not a lot of people were talkingabout this.
(19:08):
And I felt like if I if I washaving issues understanding
this, and if I was strugglingwith this, and if I was feeling
guilty over these issues, thatthere had to be other believers
out there that were feeling thesame and struggling with the
same issues.
And um, I I really wanted to uhbe able to shed some light on
(19:29):
that.
You know, you you mentioned inyour in your introduction that
I'm a retired business analystand I do kind of analyze things
and um part of that training umwas was learning to ask why
questions.
You know, when something's wrongin a process, we go, why?
And we can find, well, that'swhy, but is that the root cause?
(19:52):
And no, usually if you keepasking why, you'll you'll get
down to the root cause.
And and I felt like in in mystudy, I was I was asking those
kinds of questions to reallyunderstand why is this conflict
here and what did God do aboutit?
And when I began to get thoseanswers, I I wanted to share um
(20:15):
with with whoever would like toread about that.
Um I've I've wanted to be anauthor since I was 19.
So that's been you know almost60, you know, almost 50 years.
Um and uh I finally foundsomething that I that I felt
like I could write about.
And um, so I wrote about it.
(20:36):
And I, you know, I'm gettingreally good feedback on it, and
the people who have read it sayit's helped them a lot.
So I I hope to see it help a lotmore people.
SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
You drew from the Apocalypse teaching in your
book, and how do you see thathis writings on the conflict
between flesh and spiritinfluencing the great the way
Christians can approach theirstruggles today?
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Paul is a really interesting character.
You know, he he was raised to bea Pharisee of the Pharisees.
And, you know, he was he waslikely around Jerusalem when
when Jesus was ministering.
Um so he he likely saweverything that was going on
during those years of ministryfor Jesus.
(21:25):
And he had a tremendousunderstanding of the Hebrew
scriptures and by his ownadmission was zealous for God.
And when he came to Christ,there was there was a foundation
in his life that that wasinstantly ignited by the Holy
Spirit.
(21:45):
You know, his perspectivechanged 180 degrees overnight.
And he was in a unique positionto understand God's intent and
person, purpose for humanitybecause of his training as a
young man.
And when he came to faith inChrist, he embraced something
(22:06):
that was foreign in thepharisaic world, and that's
grace.
The Pharisees and religiousteachers were all about legalism
and obeying the every jot andtittle of the law.
And here is this amazing thingcalled grace, and and Paul was
confronted by his ownwretchedness.
(22:29):
And yet he found God'sforgiveness and God's grace.
And so as he, you know, he hewas in isolation for a number of
years after he was saved.
And I believe during those timeshis his doctrine was was formed,
right?
And uh he he embraced thisamazing grace that God has
(22:55):
provided through the sacrificeof Jesus Christ.
And he he understood thedifference between law and
grace, and he understood God'scall to holiness, and he
understood human frailty andweakness, and he understood
God's powerful grace to save usand to ultimately restore us
(23:19):
into that relationship that Adamhad, Adam and Eve had with God
in the beginning.
He he emphasized very, veryclearly the need for us to live
righteous lives, um, but ourinability to do so completely,
and that it was God's HolySpirit working in us to help us
(23:45):
to live those righteous lives.
It's it's not human effort.
It's it's you know learning tosurrender to God and allow the
Holy Spirit to move in our livesand work through us and in us.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
What do you think is the root cause of the inner
conflict between the spirit andthe flesh that believers
experience?
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Well, the root cause is that the sin nature exists,
right?
And um, you know, when when wehave not come to faith in
Christ, we have a sin nature umand and we're sinning.
But for a lot of us, I think,you know, especially in the
(24:30):
United States where affluence isis so predominant, um, we don't
recognize our spiritual need.
And um when when a person comesto faith in Christ, then they
have the Holy Spirit inside ofthem that uh number one has
saved them and he's beginning acleansing work.
(24:53):
Um sometimes he does uh a lot ofthat immediately, and sometimes
it's it's more struggle.
But it's the the root cause ofthat conflict is that when a
person comes to faith in Christ,they now have the Holy Spirit
who's working to conform us tothe image of Christ, and the
flesh rebels against that.
(25:15):
There's a verse in Corinthians,I believe it is, where Paul says
literally that the flesh warsagainst the spirit.
Wars against the spirit.
That's a strong word, you know.
Um and as free will individuals,it's up to us to make choices
(25:36):
that that facilitate the workingof the Holy Spirit in our lives
against that flesh that'swarring against our spiritual
benefit.
SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
What would you say to someone who feels discouraged
or overwhelmed by theirspiritual struggles, wondering
if they're if they'll trul trulylive victoriously for Christ?
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
I would say um, because I've been there, um I
remember one one day, uh just alot of financial pressure, a lot
of family issues going on, umdriving down the road, nearly in
tears, worship music on, andcoming to the point where I
(26:22):
said, God, about all I canreally understand today is that
you are who you say you are, andJesus is who he says he is, and
I believe that.
And my faith got shaken down tothat core truth, right?
(26:42):
And to anyone who's strugglingum under self-condemnation,
under just pressure, underfeeling like, you know, I'm
supposed to be a Christian, mylife is supposed to be better.
Why are my debts piled up?
Why did I lose my job?
Why did my spouse leave?
Why, you know, there's a millionwhys that we can ask.
(27:03):
Um but I would say a couple ofthings.
First, um, just recognize thatthat you're not alone, that that
many, many people, if not everyperson, uh goes through times
like that.
What what they're experiencingis a human experience.
Um it's not because you're umsomehow the most sinful person
(27:29):
in the world and and beyond thethe reach of God's grace.
Um, secondly, I'd say lean intoGod and and just come before God
openly and honestly.
Uh share your share yourfrustrations, share your fears,
share your anger.
There's been times I've been soangry about life and and blame
(27:53):
God.
And I stood in my living roomand I said, Why, God, why?
What why don't you do something?
What is going on?
I I am helpless in thissituation.
And God's response to me wasvery simply, and I heard it very
clearly, and it happened anumber of times during a season
of my life.
The only response I heard was, Ilove you.
(28:17):
And in that time, if we can pourout our hearts to God and then
just listen and let God love us.
That's you know, mycircumstances didn't change
overnight.
In time they did, but I had apiece that that helped me get
(28:41):
through sometimes a couple ofminutes at a time, sometimes an
hour, sometimes I made itthrough a day.
And sometimes in those reallyhard places in life, that's how
we live.
We make it from moment tomoment, hour to hour, day to
day.
Um, but God will be present withus if we will reach out to him.
(29:02):
And um, you know, he's he's ableto deal with our our anger and
our frustrations, and um becausehe loves us.
And because Jesus became a man,God became a man and lived all
of those human experiences, hehe can empathize with us because
(29:25):
he lived those very things.
SPEAKER_02 (29:28):
And then well, but where can people buy your book?
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
It's on sale on Amazon.
Um, it's also on Goodreads.
Um, so and it's also in uh uhebook form on Amazon right now.
It's 99 cents, I think.
So it's a cheap way to pick upwhat I think is a good book.
SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
So well, Brad, again, thank you so much for
coming on the show today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Well, thank you very much, Dorothy.
It was a pleasure to be here anduh God bless everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
God bless.
Well, guys and girls, thank youso much for coming on and for
listening.
Go and check out the back bookand until next time.
God bless.
Bye-bye.
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DorseyUs show.
Today we have a guest with us.
His name is Brad.
He is a retired business analystand Christian who explores the
struggle between sin and theHoly Spirit in his book, The
(00:40):
Strangers Conflict.
He emphasizes God's grace as thepath to purpose and victory.
Fred, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Thank you for having me, Dorcy.
It's a pleasure to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Absolutely.
I always like to open up my showwith an icebreaker question.
And today's icebreaker questionis what's your favorite way to
spend a day off?
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
Oh boy.
I would say one of my favoriteways is to just hop in the car.
Um I'm about an hour and 20minutes away from the Oregon
coast and uh just turning onsome worship music and driving
over to the coast and stoppingat places and walking on the
(01:31):
beach.
It's it's a wonderful way for meto restore my soul and come back
home and ready to work somemore.
SPEAKER_04 (01:38):
There you go.
How do personal struggles shapeone's faith journey?
SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Oh man.
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
Um I think they shape our faith journey in a in
a lot of ways.
Um they'll they'll challenge ourmisconceptions.
Um for one.
Um, you know, I think I think alot of people come to faith in
Christ and think that all oftheir problems are instantly
going to be solved.
And um when we start goingthrough struggles, we begin to
(02:12):
to question well, gee, was wasmy decision to believe in Christ
really valid?
And for me personally, as I'vegone through struggles and and
grappled with those questions,there's been just that
affirmation of the Holy Spiritinside that says, yeah, your
faith is valid.
It was your expectation that wasoff, you know.
(02:35):
And uh God never promised thatthat this life would be easy.
And He shapes our He He shapesour character and deepens our
faith as we go through thosestruggles and and recognize that
that affirmation of the HolySpirit from within uh the that
frequently contradicts our ourhuman interpretation of our
(03:01):
struggles.
SPEAKER_02 (03:02):
Yeah.
How can believers find strengthamidst their inner or internal
conflict?
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Turning to God's word is is the first step.
You know, everything we knowabout Jesus is contained in the
book of that Bible, right?
And uh understanding scriptureand and understanding how it
applies to our lives in inpractical terms is a great first
step.
Um another step is is justregardless of what's going on in
(03:38):
life, um, if we can if we canturn our our thoughts and our
praise to God and recognize Godfor who he is and his greatness,
regardless of our situation andand how confusing um struggles
can be sometimes, uh that'sthat's huge.
Um there's a a psalm where Davidsaid, uh, even though you cast
(04:04):
me into hell, I will praise you.
And that's a real statement, youknow, of of recognizing God's
worthiness of our praise,regardless of of what our
circumstances are in life.
And I think a third thing thathelps us is just fellowshipping
with other believers who cancome alongside and say, man, you
(04:24):
are not alone in your struggle.
Uh I know exactly what you'regoing through.
I've been there too.
Um, and let's walk through thistogether.
SPEAKER_02 (04:32):
Yeah.
When I think about, you know,the struggles and the conflicts
that, you know, that I thinkthat we're gonna be talking
about today, I think about, youknow, Romans, you know, six,
seven, and eight, where it talksabout, you know, the inner man,
the the Sing Man, and how we,you know, conf how we battle
(04:53):
with the sinful man and how we,you know, know that, you know,
we're not supposed to sing, butyet we we do it anyway.
SPEAKER_03 (05:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:01):
And then in real in Romans 8, he says, therefore
there's now no condemnation forthose who are in uh crisis.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
That's right.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
Now you wrote a book as I mentioned in your um
preview there about this uhcalled The Strangers Conflict.
Why do you think this topic isso important to believers today?
And what is the title about?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
I I think it's an important uh concept because um
because it's it's a reality ofour daily lives.
And I know for me, you know, I Icame to a point in my faith walk
where I said, I'm supposed to bea believer.
Why, why do I still strugglewith with lustful thoughts?
(05:52):
Why do I still struggle with youknow dishonesty?
Why do I still struggle withthis stuff that that isn't
supposed to be a part of mylife, right?
Isn't supposed to be part of mylife.
And um I wanted to understand uhthat struggle.
And and you know, lo and behold,uh through my my studies, I I
(06:12):
found that that even Paul,right, the great apostle Paul,
struggled with that, where hetalks about that in Romans 5, uh
towards the end of that chapter.
He he says, there's things Iwant to do that that I just
don't do.
And then there's things I don'twant to do.
I find myself doing them.
Woe is me.
You know, who's going to saveme?
(06:32):
And his conclusion was thank GodJesus Christ has saved me.
And so the the title, TheStranger's Conflict, it talks
about that conflict between ourold sin nature and the
regenerated spirit within us,uh, and the Holy Spirit working
within to conform us to theimage of Christ.
(06:53):
And I get a lot of questionsabout why the stranger.
Um, and the answer is verysimple that that uh even from
the patriarchs, uh, the faithchapter in Hebrews, chapter 11,
uh as the author of Hebrews wentthrough those people towards the
end of that chapter, he said,and all of these people believed
(07:14):
in hope, not seeing what theyhad been promised, but they were
they were um living this life asstrangers and aliens, sojourners
in this world and hoping for abetter country.
And Jesus himself, you know,said to his disciples, um, you
are from the earth and I am fromheaven.
(07:35):
And basically he was saying, I'ma stranger here.
And the apostle Paul said thatwhen we come to faith in Christ,
we become citizens of heaven.
We're no longer citizens of thisworld.
So that that strangers theme isis very common and it's uh it's
something that I picked up on uhand really wanted to focus on uh
because as followers of Jesus,we are to be living a different
(07:58):
type of life.
You know, we have different setsof values than the world around
us.
SPEAKER_02 (08:04):
Do you think that there's certain sins that I
mean, even though that we'llwe'll always sin, we'll always
have that sinful nature withinus, and we'll always deal with,
you know, the sanctification of,you know, God, you know, helping
us to get rid of that sin.
But do you think that there's,you know, um maybe a sin in your
(08:28):
book or a conflict, a sinfulconflict that you deal with in
your book that you can say, yes,we can get rid of that of that
issue in our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
Yeah, you know, Paul said there's a lot of people
that that uh believe in God, butthey don't believe in the power
of God, right?
And and I think, you know,recognizing that we have that
sin nature and that God's gracecovers our sin and forgives us
for our sin does not give uslicense to sin.
(09:03):
God calls us to be holy, right?
And um I think the key thing iswhen when we struggle with those
things, when we turn to God ingenuine repentance, there's
forgiveness there.
And in I think in the book I usethe illustration uh about
smoking cigarettes.
(09:24):
Um when I first came to Christ,I smoked cigarettes way back,
you know, in my early 20s.
And I tried and tried and triedand tried and tried and tried
for a couple of years to stopsmoking.
I did everything I possiblycould to try to quit.
And I could not stop smoking.
I was bound.
And I felt guilty, I feltashamed.
And um we might not say smokingis a big sin, but it's, you
(09:48):
know, violating the temple ofGod.
And I think, you know, it it isa sin to some degree.
And I think this illustrates apoint that there came a point in
time where I traveled to LosAngeles uh with a youth group
and was in a situation for whereone week I could not smoke
cigarettes.
(10:08):
Was not allowed.
I wouldn't be alone.
I was, you know, I was stayingin other people's houses, there
was no smoking allowed.
And I left a pack of cigaretteson my TV at home with 19
cigarettes in it.
I went down to LA for a week.
God called me to go to Biblecollege during that week.
I came home and I threw thatpack of cigarettes away and I
(10:30):
was delivered.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Now, I struggled with that sin for years.
SPEAKER_00 (10:37):
And in God's timing, he delivered me.
I think that's that's the samewith a lot of sin.
You know, some people come tofaith in Christ and they are
instantly delivered from many,many things.
Other people struggle withthings for years, and and
there's probably things in ourlives that we that we all
struggle with.
(10:57):
And we can we can continue to dowhat Adam and Eve did when they
sinned and go hide in the bushesand cover ourselves with fig
leaves, or we can come beforeGod in sincere repentance and
openness and say, God, I'mstruggling with this and I
cannot conquer it on my own.
And sometimes God will moveinstantly, and sometimes for
(11:21):
whatever reason, he will let usum struggle with that for a
season.
Um, but whether it's in thislife or or in the next, God will
deliver us from that sin.
And I think the greatesttemptation when we're struggling
with those things is to numberone, hide from God and and
number two, feel like we're notworthy of his grace because we
(11:43):
can't overcome it.
And it's it's just not about us,it's about Jesus overcoming
those things in us.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
Right.
I read in your background thatyou came to Christ at the age of
six.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (11:59):
What was that experience like?
I mean, that's really young to,you know, accept him as your
Lord and Savior.
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
Well, there's a funny story behind that.
Um, I went to Bible college umin the early 1980s, and and one
of my professors uh stood upbefore the class one morning and
he said, if you can't tell methe exact moment that you were
saved, then I don't believeyou're saved.
And I sat in that class as as uhprobably a 24-year-old at that
(12:31):
time.
And I'm thinking, when did Ifirst come to faith in Christ?
When did I first and I struggledwith that question for for
several years?
And as I thought about it onemorning, I I realized, you know,
the first moment I believed wasat the age of six.
I was in a Sunday school classin the upstairs room of the
(12:51):
Methodist church in JunctionCity, Oregon, where my family
attended.
And my mother was teaching aclass and she was talking about
Jesus.
And, you know, she had theflannel board up there, and she
was talking about that.
And I remember a very specificmoment where in my heart I said,
I believe that.
And that in that moment I wassaved.
SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
You say in your book that understanding how God made
us in his image is vital tounderstand the conflict you
discuss in the book.
Why is understanding how Godmade us so important?
SPEAKER_00 (13:29):
Well, if we go back to Genesis chapter one and two,
where God created Adam and Eve,um you know, he formed Adam out
of the dust of the ground.
And the scripture says that Godbreathed into Adam, and God is
spirit.
So when God breathed into Adam,he was breathing spirit into
Adam, and Adam became a livingsoul.
(13:51):
So Adam was physical, and he hadGod's spirit within him because
God breathed it into him, and hebecame a living soul.
And so we're we're really atripart being of a physical
being, uh spiritual being and asoul that that is the unique
(14:15):
individual of us.
And um God created us to haverelationship with himself.
God is spirit, and if we'regoing to have relationship with
God, it's going to be on aspiritual basis.
Because while we see um Jesus inphysical form during his earthly
ministry, and there are severaloccasions in the Old Testament
(14:38):
where he appears to Abraham, heappeared to Joshua and a couple
other people, I think.
Um, we don't see him physically,right?
We have a spiritual relationshipwith God.
Well, God wasn't done withcreation when he created Adam,
he also created Eve, and hecreated her in much the same
way, took a physical part ofAdam, formed Eve, and then I
(15:02):
believe that process of creationfor Eve, even though it's not
specifically stated in theBible, was the same that God
breathed life into Eve, and shebecame a living soul.
Well, he created them for eachother.
So we were created to haverelationship with other human
beings, and we are created tohave relationship with God.
So the physical part uh islargely how do we relate to
(15:27):
other human beings, but Ibelieve there's also a spiritual
aspect to our relationships.
Um, and in, you know, in thefall, that was all distorted and
blown away.
Uh, we lost that relationshipwith God because we were cut off
from the Garden of Eden and inthe spirit of human beings
(15:47):
ceased to be connected with God.
And so understanding how we'remade, body, soul, and spirit, to
relate to both human beings andto God, I think is crucial to
understanding that conflict.
Because when the Holy Spiritcomes into us when we believe in
Christ, then we now have thatregenerated spirit that wants
(16:12):
relationship with God, and yetthe sin nature is bound in the
flesh and fights against that.
SPEAKER_02 (16:21):
Maybe you answered it in but how do we how do we
how why is it important for usto see how God made us in his
image?
Why is that why is that animportant aspect of this topic?
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
Okay.
Um I think we need to understandthat that that desire to run
from God, that desire to hidefrom God, that desire to rebel
against God comes from theflesh.
It comes from um the sin naturethat's bound in the flesh, and
that it will always be with usas long as this flesh lives.
(17:01):
Um on the on the flip side ofthat, understanding that my
relationship with God isspiritual, I need to feed my my
spiritual life.
And we do that by understandingGod's word, being in God's word,
uh worshiping God, spending timewith God in prayer, um, and
(17:22):
fellowshipping with otherbelievers who can um help
influence our spiritual lives.
And and I think so many of us,you know, just go about living
our lives and and we don'trecognize sometimes that that we
need to stop and take the timeto cultivate that spiritual
(17:45):
relationship with Christ.
It doesn't just happen, youknow, it takes work.
It's it's like it's like growinga garden for anybody out there
that that grows garden, youknow, you you plant the seed and
weeds come up with the seed, andyou need to pull the weeds and
and water the seed and make sureit's in a good uh a place that's
(18:06):
got life.
It takes effort.
And so do our spiritual lives,um, knowing Christ, following
Christ, because um to donothing, uh it seems like the
the inertia, the energy is is ina downward spile away from God.
(18:28):
And if we want to grow closer toGod, then it takes effort to
feed our spirits and andcultivate our spiritual lives.
SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
What was the purpose of writing writing the book and
what do you hope people get outof it?
SPEAKER_00 (18:46):
Um you know, the the book was was written largely out
of my own experience or my owndesire to understand this.
Um and as as I began to figurethis out and and listen to
teaching out there in inChristendom, um, I realized that
not a lot of people were talkingabout this.
(19:08):
And I felt like if I if I washaving issues understanding
this, and if I was strugglingwith this, and if I was feeling
guilty over these issues, thatthere had to be other believers
out there that were feeling thesame and struggling with the
same issues.
And um, I I really wanted to uhbe able to shed some light on
(19:29):
that.
You know, you you mentioned inyour in your introduction that
I'm a retired business analystand I do kind of analyze things
and um part of that training umwas was learning to ask why
questions.
You know, when something's wrongin a process, we go, why?
And we can find, well, that'swhy, but is that the root cause?
(19:52):
And no, usually if you keepasking why, you'll you'll get
down to the root cause.
And and I felt like in in mystudy, I was I was asking those
kinds of questions to reallyunderstand why is this conflict
here and what did God do aboutit?
And when I began to get thoseanswers, I I wanted to share um
(20:15):
with with whoever would like toread about that.
Um I've I've wanted to be anauthor since I was 19.
So that's been you know almost60, you know, almost 50 years.
Um and uh I finally foundsomething that I that I felt
like I could write about.
And um, so I wrote about it.
(20:36):
And I, you know, I'm gettingreally good feedback on it, and
the people who have read it sayit's helped them a lot.
So I I hope to see it help a lotmore people.
SPEAKER_02 (20:46):
You drew from the Apocalypse teaching in your
book, and how do you see thathis writings on the conflict
between flesh and spiritinfluencing the great the way
Christians can approach theirstruggles today?
SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
Paul is a really interesting character.
You know, he he was raised to bea Pharisee of the Pharisees.
And, you know, he was he waslikely around Jerusalem when
when Jesus was ministering.
Um so he he likely saweverything that was going on
during those years of ministryfor Jesus.
(21:25):
And he had a tremendousunderstanding of the Hebrew
scriptures and by his ownadmission was zealous for God.
And when he came to Christ,there was there was a foundation
in his life that that wasinstantly ignited by the Holy
Spirit.
(21:45):
You know, his perspectivechanged 180 degrees overnight.
And he was in a unique positionto understand God's intent and
person, purpose for humanitybecause of his training as a
young man.
And when he came to faith inChrist, he embraced something
(22:06):
that was foreign in thepharisaic world, and that's
grace.
The Pharisees and religiousteachers were all about legalism
and obeying the every jot andtittle of the law.
And here is this amazing thingcalled grace, and and Paul was
confronted by his ownwretchedness.
(22:29):
And yet he found God'sforgiveness and God's grace.
And so as he, you know, he hewas in isolation for a number of
years after he was saved.
And I believe during those timeshis his doctrine was was formed,
right?
And uh he he embraced thisamazing grace that God has
(22:55):
provided through the sacrificeof Jesus Christ.
And he he understood thedifference between law and
grace, and he understood God'scall to holiness, and he
understood human frailty andweakness, and he understood
God's powerful grace to save usand to ultimately restore us
(23:19):
into that relationship that Adamhad, Adam and Eve had with God
in the beginning.
He he emphasized very, veryclearly the need for us to live
righteous lives, um, but ourinability to do so completely,
and that it was God's HolySpirit working in us to help us
(23:45):
to live those righteous lives.
It's it's not human effort.
It's it's you know learning tosurrender to God and allow the
Holy Spirit to move in our livesand work through us and in us.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
What do you think is the root cause of the inner
conflict between the spirit andthe flesh that believers
experience?
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Well, the root cause is that the sin nature exists,
right?
And um, you know, when when wehave not come to faith in
Christ, we have a sin nature umand and we're sinning.
But for a lot of us, I think,you know, especially in the
(24:30):
United States where affluence isis so predominant, um, we don't
recognize our spiritual need.
And um when when a person comesto faith in Christ, then they
have the Holy Spirit inside ofthem that uh number one has
saved them and he's beginning acleansing work.
(24:53):
Um sometimes he does uh a lot ofthat immediately, and sometimes
it's it's more struggle.
But it's the the root cause ofthat conflict is that when a
person comes to faith in Christ,they now have the Holy Spirit
who's working to conform us tothe image of Christ, and the
flesh rebels against that.
(25:15):
There's a verse in Corinthians,I believe it is, where Paul says
literally that the flesh warsagainst the spirit.
Wars against the spirit.
That's a strong word, you know.
Um and as free will individuals,it's up to us to make choices
(25:36):
that that facilitate the workingof the Holy Spirit in our lives
against that flesh that'swarring against our spiritual
benefit.
SPEAKER_02 (25:46):
What would you say to someone who feels discouraged
or overwhelmed by theirspiritual struggles, wondering
if they're if they'll trul trulylive victoriously for Christ?
SPEAKER_00 (26:01):
I would say um, because I've been there, um I
remember one one day, uh just alot of financial pressure, a lot
of family issues going on, umdriving down the road, nearly in
tears, worship music on, andcoming to the point where I
(26:22):
said, God, about all I canreally understand today is that
you are who you say you are, andJesus is who he says he is, and
I believe that.
And my faith got shaken down tothat core truth, right?
(26:42):
And to anyone who's strugglingum under self-condemnation,
under just pressure, underfeeling like, you know, I'm
supposed to be a Christian, mylife is supposed to be better.
Why are my debts piled up?
Why did I lose my job?
Why did my spouse leave?
Why, you know, there's a millionwhys that we can ask.
(27:03):
Um but I would say a couple ofthings.
First, um, just recognize thatthat you're not alone, that that
many, many people, if not everyperson, uh goes through times
like that.
What what they're experiencingis a human experience.
Um it's not because you're umsomehow the most sinful person
(27:29):
in the world and and beyond thethe reach of God's grace.
Um, secondly, I'd say lean intoGod and and just come before God
openly and honestly.
Uh share your share yourfrustrations, share your fears,
share your anger.
There's been times I've been soangry about life and and blame
(27:53):
God.
And I stood in my living roomand I said, Why, God, why?
What why don't you do something?
What is going on?
I I am helpless in thissituation.
And God's response to me wasvery simply, and I heard it very
clearly, and it happened anumber of times during a season
of my life.
The only response I heard was, Ilove you.
(28:17):
And in that time, if we can pourout our hearts to God and then
just listen and let God love us.
That's you know, mycircumstances didn't change
overnight.
In time they did, but I had apiece that that helped me get
(28:41):
through sometimes a couple ofminutes at a time, sometimes an
hour, sometimes I made itthrough a day.
And sometimes in those reallyhard places in life, that's how
we live.
We make it from moment tomoment, hour to hour, day to
day.
Um, but God will be present withus if we will reach out to him.
(29:02):
And um, you know, he's he's ableto deal with our our anger and
our frustrations, and um becausehe loves us.
And because Jesus became a man,God became a man and lived all
of those human experiences, hehe can empathize with us because
(29:25):
he lived those very things.
SPEAKER_02 (29:28):
And then well, but where can people buy your book?
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
It's on sale on Amazon.
Um, it's also on Goodreads.
Um, so and it's also in uh uhebook form on Amazon right now.
It's 99 cents, I think.
So it's a cheap way to pick upwhat I think is a good book.
SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
So well, Brad, again, thank you so much for
coming on the show today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Well, thank you very much, Dorothy.
It was a pleasure to be here anduh God bless everybody.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
God bless.
Well, guys and girls, thank youso much for coming on and for
listening.
Go and check out the back bookand until next time.
God bless.
Bye-bye.
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