January 1, 2025 • 37 mins
What if you could transform your darkest experiences into a powerful force for change? Jenniesue Jessen, an inspiring advocate and survivor, joins us to share her harrowing yet uplifting journey from a childhood marked by exploitation to becoming a leader in the counter-trafficking movement. Annie reveals how her faith became a beacon of hope amidst years of abuse by her grandfather, and how a life-altering pregnancy at seventeen gave her the courage to escape and seek help. Her story uncovers the intricate dynamics that often prevent families from intervening, emphasizing the urgent need for awareness and action in combating human trafficking.
In this compelling conversation, we explore Jennie's healing journey and her impactful work in shaping U.S. counter-trafficking policies, particularly her efforts to address the potent link between pornography and trafficking. She shares heartwarming success stories from Compass 31, an organization she passionately supports, highlighting the transformative journey of survivors who are now helping others. Jennie's insights remind us of the importance of sensitive discussions around trauma, the critical role of survivor-led organizations, and the increased vulnerability during major events. This episode is not just a story of survival but a testament to resilience and the power of advocacy in the fight against human trafficking.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining us on
another episode of the DorsureShow.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
Her name is Annie Sue Jensen.
She has over 25 years ofpersonal experience and
professional involvement in thecounter-trafficking movement.
(00:21):
She has gathered intimateknowledge of the deaths of
trauma survivors in DOR.
Having been sold into the sextrade at a very young age, she
has seen the darkest corners ofhumanity.
However, rather than lettingthose experiences define her,
(00:42):
they have ignited a passionwithin her to contribute to
cultural and systematic changein this sphere.
At Compass 31, her heart'sbreak for those who have been
victimized by human trafficking,and we firmly believe in the
inherent worth and dignity ofevery individual.
(01:06):
The mission is to fight thiscrime through prevention,
restoration, leadership,development.
She aims to offertransformative hope and healing
to those trafficked for sex orlabor and prevent this crime
from perpetrating through theGlobal Education Initiative.
(01:31):
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today, janice Yu.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I'm so happy to share time with you and your audience
.
Thank you so much, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, I'd like to open up the show with an
icebreaker question.
And, besides what you do, whatis your biggest?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
passion geek out on brain science and the fact that
we are fearfully and wonderfullymade in the image of our
creator and how that manifestsin how our bodies and minds are
(02:15):
wired to navigate life in abroken, fallen world.
So when I want to unwind, Iopen up textbooks about
neurobiology and brain science.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, Can you give us a little bit more background on
your life and what you wentthrough?
As I read in your bio, it saysthat you were, you know,
kidnapped or sex trafficked at avery young age.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yes, I was trafficked from the age of four until 17.
And, like many people actually,my trafficking happened at the
hands of a family member, so mygrandfather was my primary
perpetrator and he startedselling me to other men for sex
(03:04):
at various levels ofvulnerabilities.
My household had addiction andsome domestic violence that made
(03:36):
me susceptible and I spent alot of time with my grandfather,
who had a perverse love forlittle girls and was a very
powerful guy, big fish in asmall pond.
So, yeah, he started selling meto other men for sex at the age
of four and that's actually inthe darkness and brutality of
(03:56):
that is actually where I metJesus the first time.
That very first day I had spentall day at work at a train
station with my grandfather,spoiled, rotten by everyone
working there.
But late afternoon came andwhen we left we went to meet one
of the men from the trainstation and he gave my
(04:16):
grandfather some money and thenhe came to take from me what he
had paid for.
But after the unthinkable hadhappened, my grandfather wrapped
me in a blanket, put me in thebackseat of the car to take me
home Again, a lot of individualswho are being trafficked are
living in home environments,they're going to school, they're
going to church, they're in thecommunity.
(04:38):
He wrapped me up, put me in thecar to take me home and put in a
cassette tape playing one ofhis favorite songs, which is an
old gospel hymn how Great ThouArt.
And as the sun was setting,jesus came for me in the
backseat of the car and in mymemory I have this very real
sense of Him holding me on Hislap and whispering to me I've
(05:01):
got you, baby, I'm big enoughfor this and I won't let you go.
And he didn't.
He continued to meet me in thedarkest places Throughout my
growing up years.
In kindergarten I was prayingevery night that he would just
let me die.
In second grade I sat in churchon Sunday morning behind the
man who paid to rape me thenight before.
(05:24):
By the time I got to be 17, Ithought my only hope for escape
would be to complete my ownsuicide.
But again he met me there andintervened.
And the day after a failedsuicide attempt, right before my
18th birthday, I found out thatI was pregnant and I often say
God you send, to send a son.
(05:44):
That saved my life, becausewith that pregnancy awoken me
this mama bear instinct.
I had never been successful infighting back on my own behalf,
but now I had an innocent babyto protect, and with that came
the courage to finally discloseto a counselor enough about what
was happening for her tointervene and to get both myself
(06:07):
and my child to safety.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
With you know, with your experience, with your story
, and with you know probablyhundreds and maybe even
thousands of other stories, andyou even mentioned that you know
a lot of this happened in homeand in family.
Yeah, how come there's not moreyou know intervening from other
(06:35):
family members or otherindividual adults that you know
to?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
stop this?
That's a great question.
I wish I had the answer to that.
Unfortunately I don't.
I think in my situation, a lotof what was happening which is
not uncommon is my dad was analcoholic and my mom was
addicted to my dad, and so whenmy household was in crisis, they
(07:04):
would send me three hours awayto my grandparents' house and in
all fairness you knowhindsight's 20-20, I think they
really believed they were doingwhat was best.
The house was in disarray andthere was, you know, alcoholism
and violence, so they sent meaway, not understanding really
the depravity of my grandfather.
(07:25):
But there were clues all alongand whether it is shame or
dysfunction or just anincapacity to respond, for
example, in kindergarten we hadto draw pictures for
Thanksgiving and we weresupposed to draw a picture of
our family, and I drew my wholefamily like everybody else.
I'm an artist at heart, thatwas easy for me, but I drew my
(07:50):
grandfather, two to three timesbigger than everybody else in
the family, and my grandfatherwas the only one that appeared
in my picture, completely nakedand with an erection.
And so my kindergarten teachersaw the picture and called my
mom.
My mom came to pick me up atschool, saw the picture was
mortified.
(08:10):
She was so angry she tore upthe picture.
She scolded me, she said wedon't draw pictures like that.
But that was the end of thediscussion.
So there were a couple ofinstances like that over the
years that coulda shoulda wouldaknown.
You know, if you were in yourright mind, if you were
(08:31):
functional, if you were in ahealthy environment, perhaps she
would have been equipped tointervene.
But a lot of us, and especiallywhere I was growing up in the
Midwest you just don't rock theboat.
You keep your mouth shut.
Family secrets are familysecrets for a reason and you
(08:53):
maintain the status quo and evenwith that picture, the teacher
never said hey, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Never spoke to you in private, never went, you know,
to other higher ups in theschool system.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
She didn't.
That was in the 70s, that wouldhave been 1977, that I was in
kindergarten and her I don'tknow what mandatory reporting
looked like in Missouri in the70s, but she did what she
thought she needed to do.
She called my mom and, you know, I think, assumed that my mom
(09:31):
would intervene in a way thatwas appropriate.
And my mom again.
She was doing the best shecould in the midst of a chaotic
life and wasn't able tointervene.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
How did your story and your life shape you to
wanting to combat sextrafficking and what you do now.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
That's a great question.
I'll give you an honest answer.
Honestly, it was a push andpull.
God twisted my arm.
I don't know if you've everwrestled with God, but I've
never won that wrestling match.
Both my husband and I felt thatat some point God would use my
story in a redemptive way thathelped empower other people who
(10:21):
had suffered similar things.
Empower other people who hadsuffered similar things.
But when he called me to goback into the dark, he had
rescued me from the dark.
I came to know him in such deepand intimate and healing ways,
and when he called me to go back, I was mad about it.
I thought what kind of audacityis that, that you would pull me
(10:43):
out of the dark and then expectme to go back?
But really, what he was doingwas he was extending this
glorious invitation, he wasgiving me a front-row seat to
watching him do the work.
He sets captives free.
That's always been his agenda,that's always been his
prerogative, and so, basically,his calling for us, my husband
(11:08):
and I, to start ourinternational counter
trafficking agency.
Was Jesus going?
Come on, baby, come sit righthere and watch, watch redemption
unfold again and again andagain, and it's been a beautiful
and a wild ride we were.
I often say we were born breechlike God just dropped this
(11:33):
bloody, squawking miracle in mylap.
But first, I didn't have a plan, I didn't have the funding, I
didn't have the facility.
I just said yes, and that wasin June 2011.
Now, 13 years later, we have aprevention program operating in
43 countries and restorationwork in five countries.
So he's just done exponentiallybeyond what I ever would have
(12:00):
dreamed possible.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
What was it like with your relationship with Christ
during those especially theteenage years?
And you know you're stilldealing with what you dealt with
.
How did you wrestle with thatand say, god, why are you still
allowing me to go through this?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
You know it is.
I think I don't think it'sunique to somebody who's
experienced trafficking.
I think every human on theplanet at some point will
wrestle with.
Wait a minute, is God good andis God powerful?
Is he loving and is he powerful?
And as a teenager I had beeninvited to church.
(12:44):
I heard the gospel, I gave mylife to the Lord, I prayed to
receive Christ, I was baptized,had this whole spiritual
transaction.
But as I started readingscripture, I really wrestled
with okay, wait, I gave my lifeto God, but still my
exploitation was continuing.
(13:05):
To God, but still myexploitation was continuing.
And actually, age 15 through 17, it got pretty significantly
more violent than some of thethings I had experienced as a
child.
And so how do I make sense of Igave my life to the Lord and
yet here I am still beingexploited.
I prayed, I needed a savior.
Hey, where are you and I?
(13:27):
You know, 15, 16, 17,.
Very little theologicalunderstanding, a whole lot of
life experience of violence.
I thought either God is allgood and he hates what's
happening to me, but he'spowerless to stop it, or God is
all powerful and he could stopit, but he doesn't care to.
(13:47):
And it was years before I couldreally reconcile that.
But one of the critical piecesof the puzzle was years into my
journey.
I was working on memorizingsome verses in scripture and I
was in the book of Ephesians andI got to Ephesians 1, 4, and it
(14:09):
says for he chose us, that'sGod.
God chose us in him, before thecreation of the world, to be
holy and blameless in his sight.
In love, he predestined us tobe adopted as his own.
And I thought wait, a minute,wait, wait, wait, wait.
The creator of the universe,before he created anything, the
(14:32):
eternal one outside of time,before he flipped on the lights,
before he separated the waterfrom the land or the light from
the dark, he looked through timeand he went Jenny, sue, that
one she's mine, she's holy,she's blameless, she will be
adopted, loved as my own.
And when I was memorizing thatverse, everything that turned
(14:55):
upside down when I was fouryears old in my world started to
write itself, because Jesusgave me this very clear image,
almost like watching my wholelife in fast forward, of all
these traumatic scenes, and inevery one Jesus was there,
holding me, protecting me,loving me.
(15:16):
And that became proof to methat God is both all good and
all powerful Because again andagain and again he met me in the
dark and he kept me together.
He kept me in one piece.
I had physical injuries, Istill have scars, but mentally,
(15:38):
spiritually whole.
He kept me whole and I'vewritten a book about my
experience and it's titled theLucky One for that very reason,
because he met me in the darkand that became proof that he is
all good and all powerful.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Amen.
Do you know the name?
Michael Bartel?
I don't think I do.
Okay, I bring it up onlybecause he does something
similar to what you do, and Ibelieve he's based out of Las
Vegas, nevada, or at least hewas.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I'll look him up.
I'm always, always,collaborating.
You know, no person is anisland unto themselves.
Right?
We can reach much further whenwe join hands and extend each
other's impact.
So I'll look him up.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
You have done some work with the government or you
know policies.
You know creating new policies.
What have you done in thatrealm and what did that look
like?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Trump just before he left office to serve a two-year
term on what's called the USAdvisory Council on Human
Trafficking, and the US AdvisoryCouncil is a panel of between
10 and 14 survivor leaders.
People who have personalexperience of trafficking bring
their knowledge forward, and ourtask is to regularly meet with
the senior policy advisors tothe president's cabinet
(17:30):
exploring our US federalcounter-trafficking laws and
regulations are in existence,and then every year we publish a
(17:52):
report specifically to thoseagencies about how we might
navigate counter-trafficking ina more effective way.
So I was appointed by PresidentTrump but served my two years
under President Biden, so I kindof got to straddle both
administrations and it was anhonor and a privilege.
Much of what I learned as achild was that my survival
(18:14):
depended on my silence and mysubmission.
So to be appointed by one ofthe most powerful political
leaders in the world to sit on acouncil and inform federal
counter-trafficking policy I wasregularly going toe-to-toe with
advisors from the DOJ andHomeland Security and Department
(18:37):
of Education about policies.
I was given a platform to usemy voice and affect change, and
that was an incredibly powerfuland healing experience for me
that I am profoundly gratefulfor.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Is there a policy that you can talk about that you
helped initiate?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
One of the things that I was really passionate
about in the two years that Iwas serving was the connection
between pornography andtrafficking.
And there's, you know, if youdid a Venn diagram, there's
certainly one circle would bepornography and one circle would
(19:21):
be sex trafficking, but thereis an intrinsic overlap, and
it's a pretty significantoverlap because pornography is
functionally just the marketingdepartment for sex trafficking,
and if you look at what sextrafficking is, there's an
exchange of money or somethingof value for sex.
(19:43):
That's certainly how we defineprostitution as well.
Pornography is justprostitution with a camera in
the room.
So there is an individual who'sbeing paid for sex, which,
across the board in the US,except a few counties here and
there, primarily in Nevada,prostitution is still illegal.
(20:06):
But if you put a camera in theroom and you pay an individual
for sex, then suddenly it'sfreedom of speech.
It is impossible to tell, basedon our screens, which
individuals are there by choiceand which ones are there because
of force, fraud or coercion.
And if they're performing onthe basis of force, fraud or
(20:31):
coercion, then it automaticallybecomes sex trafficking.
And so the policies that I wasreally passionate about
advocating for was morestringent restrictions and
intervention in pornography, andespecially the child sex abuse
material.
(20:52):
What once upon a time wascalled child pornography now has
been labeled child sex abusematerial, and so I was really
advocating passionately for thegovernment to act on laws that
are on our books and have beenargued all the way to the
Supreme Court and upheld by theSupreme Court, but are
(21:15):
overlooked and not implementedacross the US.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Why do you think that is that they're not implemented
in that realm?
Why do you think that is thatthey're not?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
implemented in that realm.
Comfort, universal guilt, Imean they're well over, well
over.
It's reported 67% of churchleaders regularly engage in
pornography, viewing pornography.
At least 36% of women admit toregularly engaging with
(21:50):
pornography.
And when it's so pervasive, ifwe make a big deal out of it,
then we're all guilty, and soit's easier to say it's a
victimless crime, it's art, it'syou know, who are you to judge
what these people are doing orsay that it's not healthy or not
helpful?
(22:10):
But when we look at thestatistics, the outflow of the
performers, the individuals thatare on the screen, and how
those line up to individuals whoare prostituted and individuals
who are trafficked, thelong-term damage to health, to
emotional well-being, to mentalhealth, is staggering.
(22:32):
But it's easier to just brushit off as boys will be boys no
harm, no foul kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Is there a success story that you can share with us
that you've been involved in?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
A success story that I've been involved in, you know.
Oh gosh, where do I start?
I got a message just this lastweek.
That's where I'll start, fromone of the girls that was in our
program when we were founded inThailand and she initially our
(23:17):
program in Thailand.
My husband and I were providingfoster care to teenage mama
babysits so teenage girls whowere coming out of exploitation
and were pregnant or had babiesas a result of their
exploitation, and we raisedmamas and babies together.
And, as you might imagine,foster care has its own level of
(23:39):
drama, but we were working withteenage girls.
Teenage girls have their ownunique version of drama.
Our teenage girls were motherswho conceived in violence, so
that's next level, and we andspeak English as my first
language.
Our girls were from thenorthern hill tribe region in
(24:13):
Thailand, so there was all thiscomplexity, but one of the girls
that came in struggled quite abit to integrate and work
towards healing and it has beena beautiful, beautiful thing to
watch.
There were moments that she wason the fence back and forth,
(24:33):
one foot in, one foot, beingtempted to return to
exploitation, and that lookingand feeling like it might be
empowering.
But I just got an email fromher earlier this week.
And not only is she free, she'sbeen working in another
nonprofit in her region of theworld caring for vulnerable moms
(24:54):
and babies, and she's now inthe process of starting her own
nonprofit to be more effectiveand strategic in
counter-trafficking in theregion of the world where she
lives.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Okay, as a survivor yourself, how do you navigate?
Discussing around trauma andresilience?
Okay, ensuring that yourmessage resonates with the broad
audience while remainingsensitive to those who have
experienced similar hardships.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
You know I lean heavily on Holy Spirit.
I pray always in the back of mymind when I'm sharing my story.
Obviously it is triggering tosome people and I can only like
bubble wrap it so much.
When you're talking about humantrafficking, there's a lot of
(25:50):
pervasive violence right At thesame time.
I think the key is for me whenI'm navigating these
conversations.
One of my mottos or policies istrying to slow down to the
speed of love, and that meansjust being fully present with
who I'm with and watching theirreaction and and listening.
(26:14):
I call it holy listeninglistening to what they're
sharing and not trying to imposemy solutions like this is what
you should do or this is themethod that you will find
healing, because I don't knowhow Jesus is going to bring them
to freedom and healing but tolisten authentically and deeply
(26:35):
and prayerfully and askingquestions like how can I love
and serve you today?
This is really terrible.
This is really terrible.
This is really hard and I'veexperienced some similar things
and I don't know what youranswer will be, but I can hold
you in prayer tenderly andfiercely.
What do you need from me?
(26:55):
And maybe they need solutions.
Likely they just need to beheard and maybe they need
solutions.
Likely, they just need to beheard.
And if I can give space forthem to be heard, then they not
only find the power in their ownvoice but they start feeling
heard and loved by the one whocreated them and who has never
left and forsaken them.
(27:37):
Your organization Conference 31,is that?
A faith-based organizationwhere I believe the love of
Christ compels me.
That's where I live and moveand have my being.
However, we don't proselytizeor force anybody to convert.
They're not our resources.
Our program, our staff is notdependent on somebody making a
(28:03):
profession of faith.
Our program is holistic.
We provide access to mentalhealth resources, therapy,
dental work, medical care,school, all of those things and
one of those pieces is regularlythe staff and the residents
(28:23):
meeting for devotions and prayertogether, and we facilitate it
in a very trauma-informed,invitational way.
Nobody is forced but everybodyis invited.
And once the residents find outthat what we're doing is
because we're compelled by thelove of Christ and they hear
other survivor stories who havebeen transformed by the love of
(28:47):
Christ, then they get curiousand they start leaning in.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I heard that there's a statistic that during the
Super Bowl, that during theSuper Bowl, that that's one of
the biggest days of the yearwhere sex trafficking happened.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Why do you think that is?
You know, we make a big dealout of the Super Bowl because
it's arguably the largest sportsevent in the US, is our Super
Bowl every year, but it's notjust specifically the Super Bowl
.
It's and this sounds icky, butit's wherever you get a bunch of
men together a bunch of mentraveling, drinking, celebrating
(29:35):
.
It can be a fishing competitionin Wyoming, it can be the Super
Bowl, it can be NBA games, itcan be college games Wherever
you get a large number of mentogether.
Trafficking is based on supplyand demand.
(29:57):
When you get a bunch of guyscelebrating and drunk together,
there's going to be a lot ofdemand, for what happens here
stays here, and so thetraffickers are going to bring
in individuals that they canexploit their vulnerabilities
and meet the demand with thecurrent trends of sex
(30:20):
trafficking, and how would youtell my listeners to also stay
informed and stay up to dateabout this horrific thing that's
going on?
I would say, find trafficking,counter-trafficking
(30:41):
organizations, specifically onesthat are survivor-led, because
those of us that are survivorsand leading organizations, we
have our ear to the ground in adifferent way.
We speak the native language oftrafficking and traffickers.
There's a lot of greatorganizations, though, so I
would encourage your followersto find organizations not just
(31:05):
mine, mine's, compass31.org.
You can find me anywhere, butthere's a lot of good
organizations, and they'realways posting on social media.
They're in the news, they'reposting what's happening in your
region of the world.
A lot of states, a lot ofcounties, have their own
developing task force.
There's one here, where I live,in Colorado, that, every month,
(31:28):
a collaborative of about 60different individuals and
organizations come together andtalk about what's happening in
our region and how do we getinvolved in a strategic way, and
it's a collaborative of medicalprofessionals and law
enforcement and NGOs andfaith-based communities and
concerned citizens all comingtogether to figure out how we
(31:50):
can solve this problem.
(32:11):
What encouragement would yougive to my listeners, whether
they're just here to listen to apodcast episode, or maybe even
someone that's you know, that'sbeen hit and trafficked?
I would say that trauma doesnot define us.
It equips us, that you are madein the image of God, one who
has never left or forsaken youfor a moment, despite the
darkest dark circumstances.
He wants to love you towardsfreedom.
(32:34):
And freedom isn't just possible, it's entirely probable.
So for those that haveexperienced trauma, I would
encourage them that way.
For for those that haveexperienced trauma, I would
encourage them that way.
For other people who are justconcerned, I would say do what I
do, slow down to the speed oflove.
See the person in front of you.
There's hurting people allaround us, whether it's domestic
(32:55):
violence or cancer or a deathin the family.
There's wounded people allaround who desperately need to
encounter the love of Christ.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Are there signs that?
I know I should end with thatquestion, but are there signs
that we can look for whetherit's a young child, teenager,
maybe even an adult?
Are there signs that we canlook for to see?
Hey, this person may be introuble.
This person may be a sextrafficking victim.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yes and no.
Yes, absolutely.
It requires us stopping ourbusy scurrying and scrolling.
We're always scurrying from oneplace to the next.
I got to get here.
I got to get there.
I got to pick up the kids.
I got to see the signs.
We have to be willing to putour phone away and stop
overbooking ourselves.
(34:07):
Leave margin in our lives sothat we can see the person in
front of us.
The signs that you can look forin my case, I was a straight-A
student.
I loved school.
I thrived at school, that wasmy safe place, but outside of
school, I was a straight-Astudent.
I loved school, I thrived atschool, that was my safe place,
but outside of school I was veryquiet and withdrawn, like I
(34:27):
drew the picture of mygrandfather in kindergarten.
There were several instanceslike that over my growing up
years that people, if they knewhow to intervene, might have
been able to intervene andinstead they just preferred the
status quo or didn't know whatto do so they did nothing.
(34:48):
So you know, behaviors ofself-harm, cutting certainly,
addictions, the earlier theaddictions start.
Individuals, especiallychildren or youth, experiencing
homelessness all of these arevulnerabilities Just at your
kitchen table if you have kids,nieces and nephews, if they have
(35:10):
a birthday party, it is likelythat one in three girls and one
in five boys will be sexuallyassaulted by the time they're 18
.
So sexual assault is a bridgeto exploitation.
It's one of thosevulnerabilities.
So, looking around at the kidsgathered at your dinner table
(35:30):
and going 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, am I seeing these kids?
Are they finding my home to bea safe place that, if something
happens, they would come tell me?
Those are our ways that we canbe strategic in intervening.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Well, jenny, thank you so much for coming on the
show today and tell us where canwe find your book.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yes, I have two books .
One is my own personal story,it's called the Lucky One, and
it is on Amazon and it'savailable in Kindle and Audible,
and then my newest book.
Actually, I have a few books,but my newest book is called the
Art of Healing NavigatingTrauma and Recovery with
Compassion, and it is also onAmazon.
(36:21):
So you can look up the LuckyOne or the Art of Healing by
Jenny Sue Jessen and you'll findme there.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, thank, you so much for coming on the show
again today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Thank you so much.
It's been an honor.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
It's been an honor.
Well, guys and girls, thank youso much for coming on and
listening today.
Again, please like and sharethis episode and go and check
out Jenny Xu's website and bookas well.
And check out my website aswell at wwwdorseywurzshowcom.
(36:59):
And until next time, god bless,bye-bye.
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining us on
another episode of the DorsureShow.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
Her name is Annie Sue Jensen.
She has over 25 years ofpersonal experience and
professional involvement in thecounter-trafficking movement.
(00:21):
She has gathered intimateknowledge of the deaths of
trauma survivors in DOR.
Having been sold into the sextrade at a very young age, she
has seen the darkest corners ofhumanity.
However, rather than lettingthose experiences define her,
(00:42):
they have ignited a passionwithin her to contribute to
cultural and systematic changein this sphere.
At Compass 31, her heart'sbreak for those who have been
victimized by human trafficking,and we firmly believe in the
inherent worth and dignity ofevery individual.
(01:06):
The mission is to fight thiscrime through prevention,
restoration, leadership,development.
She aims to offertransformative hope and healing
to those trafficked for sex orlabor and prevent this crime
from perpetrating through theGlobal Education Initiative.
(01:31):
Thank you so much for coming onthe show today, janice Yu.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I'm so happy to share time with you and your audience
.
Thank you so much, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, I'd like to open up the show with an
icebreaker question.
And, besides what you do, whatis your biggest?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
passion geek out on brain science and the fact that
we are fearfully and wonderfullymade in the image of our
creator and how that manifestsin how our bodies and minds are
(02:15):
wired to navigate life in abroken, fallen world.
So when I want to unwind, Iopen up textbooks about
neurobiology and brain science.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Okay, Can you give us a little bit more background on
your life and what you wentthrough?
As I read in your bio, it saysthat you were, you know,
kidnapped or sex trafficked at avery young age.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yes, I was trafficked from the age of four until 17.
And, like many people actually,my trafficking happened at the
hands of a family member, so mygrandfather was my primary
perpetrator and he startedselling me to other men for sex
(03:04):
at various levels ofvulnerabilities.
My household had addiction andsome domestic violence that made
(03:36):
me susceptible and I spent alot of time with my grandfather,
who had a perverse love forlittle girls and was a very
powerful guy, big fish in asmall pond.
So, yeah, he started selling meto other men for sex at the age
of four and that's actually inthe darkness and brutality of
(03:56):
that is actually where I metJesus the first time.
That very first day I had spentall day at work at a train
station with my grandfather,spoiled, rotten by everyone
working there.
But late afternoon came andwhen we left we went to meet one
of the men from the trainstation and he gave my
(04:16):
grandfather some money and thenhe came to take from me what he
had paid for.
But after the unthinkable hadhappened, my grandfather wrapped
me in a blanket, put me in thebackseat of the car to take me
home Again, a lot of individualswho are being trafficked are
living in home environments,they're going to school, they're
going to church, they're in thecommunity.
(04:38):
He wrapped me up, put me in thecar to take me home and put in a
cassette tape playing one ofhis favorite songs, which is an
old gospel hymn how Great ThouArt.
And as the sun was setting,jesus came for me in the
backseat of the car and in mymemory I have this very real
sense of Him holding me on Hislap and whispering to me I've
(05:01):
got you, baby, I'm big enoughfor this and I won't let you go.
And he didn't.
He continued to meet me in thedarkest places Throughout my
growing up years.
In kindergarten I was prayingevery night that he would just
let me die.
In second grade I sat in churchon Sunday morning behind the
man who paid to rape me thenight before.
(05:24):
By the time I got to be 17, Ithought my only hope for escape
would be to complete my ownsuicide.
But again he met me there andintervened.
And the day after a failedsuicide attempt, right before my
18th birthday, I found out thatI was pregnant and I often say
God you send, to send a son.
(05:44):
That saved my life, becausewith that pregnancy awoken me
this mama bear instinct.
I had never been successful infighting back on my own behalf,
but now I had an innocent babyto protect, and with that came
the courage to finally discloseto a counselor enough about what
was happening for her tointervene and to get both myself
(06:07):
and my child to safety.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
With you know, with your experience, with your story
, and with you know probablyhundreds and maybe even
thousands of other stories, andyou even mentioned that you know
a lot of this happened in homeand in family.
Yeah, how come there's not moreyou know intervening from other
(06:35):
family members or otherindividual adults that you know
to?
Speaker 2 (06:40):
stop this?
That's a great question.
I wish I had the answer to that.
Unfortunately I don't.
I think in my situation, a lotof what was happening which is
not uncommon is my dad was analcoholic and my mom was
addicted to my dad, and so whenmy household was in crisis, they
(07:04):
would send me three hours awayto my grandparents' house and in
all fairness you knowhindsight's 20-20, I think they
really believed they were doingwhat was best.
The house was in disarray andthere was, you know, alcoholism
and violence, so they sent meaway, not understanding really
the depravity of my grandfather.
(07:25):
But there were clues all alongand whether it is shame or
dysfunction or just anincapacity to respond, for
example, in kindergarten we hadto draw pictures for
Thanksgiving and we weresupposed to draw a picture of
our family, and I drew my wholefamily like everybody else.
I'm an artist at heart, thatwas easy for me, but I drew my
(07:50):
grandfather, two to three timesbigger than everybody else in
the family, and my grandfatherwas the only one that appeared
in my picture, completely nakedand with an erection.
And so my kindergarten teachersaw the picture and called my
mom.
My mom came to pick me up atschool, saw the picture was
mortified.
(08:10):
She was so angry she tore upthe picture.
She scolded me, she said wedon't draw pictures like that.
But that was the end of thediscussion.
So there were a couple ofinstances like that over the
years that coulda shoulda wouldaknown.
You know, if you were in yourright mind, if you were
(08:31):
functional, if you were in ahealthy environment, perhaps she
would have been equipped tointervene.
But a lot of us, and especiallywhere I was growing up in the
Midwest you just don't rock theboat.
You keep your mouth shut.
Family secrets are familysecrets for a reason and you
(08:53):
maintain the status quo and evenwith that picture, the teacher
never said hey, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Never spoke to you in private, never went, you know,
to other higher ups in theschool system.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
She didn't.
That was in the 70s, that wouldhave been 1977, that I was in
kindergarten and her I don'tknow what mandatory reporting
looked like in Missouri in the70s, but she did what she
thought she needed to do.
She called my mom and, you know, I think, assumed that my mom
(09:31):
would intervene in a way thatwas appropriate.
And my mom again.
She was doing the best shecould in the midst of a chaotic
life and wasn't able tointervene.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
How did your story and your life shape you to
wanting to combat sextrafficking and what you do now.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
That's a great question.
I'll give you an honest answer.
Honestly, it was a push andpull.
God twisted my arm.
I don't know if you've everwrestled with God, but I've
never won that wrestling match.
Both my husband and I felt thatat some point God would use my
story in a redemptive way thathelped empower other people who
(10:21):
had suffered similar things.
Empower other people who hadsuffered similar things.
But when he called me to goback into the dark, he had
rescued me from the dark.
I came to know him in such deepand intimate and healing ways,
and when he called me to go back, I was mad about it.
I thought what kind of audacityis that, that you would pull me
(10:43):
out of the dark and then expectme to go back?
But really, what he was doingwas he was extending this
glorious invitation, he wasgiving me a front-row seat to
watching him do the work.
He sets captives free.
That's always been his agenda,that's always been his
prerogative, and so, basically,his calling for us, my husband
(11:08):
and I, to start ourinternational counter
trafficking agency.
Was Jesus going?
Come on, baby, come sit righthere and watch, watch redemption
unfold again and again andagain, and it's been a beautiful
and a wild ride we were.
I often say we were born breechlike God just dropped this
(11:33):
bloody, squawking miracle in mylap.
But first, I didn't have a plan, I didn't have the funding, I
didn't have the facility.
I just said yes, and that wasin June 2011.
Now, 13 years later, we have aprevention program operating in
43 countries and restorationwork in five countries.
So he's just done exponentiallybeyond what I ever would have
(12:00):
dreamed possible.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
What was it like with your relationship with Christ
during those especially theteenage years?
And you know you're stilldealing with what you dealt with
.
How did you wrestle with thatand say, god, why are you still
allowing me to go through this?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
You know it is.
I think I don't think it'sunique to somebody who's
experienced trafficking.
I think every human on theplanet at some point will
wrestle with.
Wait a minute, is God good andis God powerful?
Is he loving and is he powerful?
And as a teenager I had beeninvited to church.
(12:44):
I heard the gospel, I gave mylife to the Lord, I prayed to
receive Christ, I was baptized,had this whole spiritual
transaction.
But as I started readingscripture, I really wrestled
with okay, wait, I gave my lifeto God, but still my
exploitation was continuing.
(13:05):
To God, but still myexploitation was continuing.
And actually, age 15 through 17, it got pretty significantly
more violent than some of thethings I had experienced as a
child.
And so how do I make sense of Igave my life to the Lord and
yet here I am still beingexploited.
I prayed, I needed a savior.
Hey, where are you and I?
(13:27):
You know, 15, 16, 17,.
Very little theologicalunderstanding, a whole lot of
life experience of violence.
I thought either God is allgood and he hates what's
happening to me, but he'spowerless to stop it, or God is
all powerful and he could stopit, but he doesn't care to.
(13:47):
And it was years before I couldreally reconcile that.
But one of the critical piecesof the puzzle was years into my
journey.
I was working on memorizingsome verses in scripture and I
was in the book of Ephesians andI got to Ephesians 1, 4, and it
(14:09):
says for he chose us, that'sGod.
God chose us in him, before thecreation of the world, to be
holy and blameless in his sight.
In love, he predestined us tobe adopted as his own.
And I thought wait, a minute,wait, wait, wait, wait.
The creator of the universe,before he created anything, the
(14:32):
eternal one outside of time,before he flipped on the lights,
before he separated the waterfrom the land or the light from
the dark, he looked through timeand he went Jenny, sue, that
one she's mine, she's holy,she's blameless, she will be
adopted, loved as my own.
And when I was memorizing thatverse, everything that turned
(14:55):
upside down when I was fouryears old in my world started to
write itself, because Jesusgave me this very clear image,
almost like watching my wholelife in fast forward, of all
these traumatic scenes, and inevery one Jesus was there,
holding me, protecting me,loving me.
(15:16):
And that became proof to methat God is both all good and
all powerful Because again andagain and again he met me in the
dark and he kept me together.
He kept me in one piece.
I had physical injuries, Istill have scars, but mentally,
(15:38):
spiritually whole.
He kept me whole and I'vewritten a book about my
experience and it's titled theLucky One for that very reason,
because he met me in the darkand that became proof that he is
all good and all powerful.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Amen.
Do you know the name?
Michael Bartel?
I don't think I do.
Okay, I bring it up onlybecause he does something
similar to what you do, and Ibelieve he's based out of Las
Vegas, nevada, or at least hewas.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I'll look him up.
I'm always, always,collaborating.
You know, no person is anisland unto themselves.
Right?
We can reach much further whenwe join hands and extend each
other's impact.
So I'll look him up.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
You have done some work with the government or you
know policies.
You know creating new policies.
What have you done in thatrealm and what did that look
like?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Trump just before he left office to serve a two-year
term on what's called the USAdvisory Council on Human
Trafficking, and the US AdvisoryCouncil is a panel of between
10 and 14 survivor leaders.
People who have personalexperience of trafficking bring
their knowledge forward, and ourtask is to regularly meet with
the senior policy advisors tothe president's cabinet
(17:30):
exploring our US federalcounter-trafficking laws and
regulations are in existence,and then every year we publish a
(17:52):
report specifically to thoseagencies about how we might
navigate counter-trafficking ina more effective way.
So I was appointed by PresidentTrump but served my two years
under President Biden, so I kindof got to straddle both
administrations and it was anhonor and a privilege.
Much of what I learned as achild was that my survival
(18:14):
depended on my silence and mysubmission.
So to be appointed by one ofthe most powerful political
leaders in the world to sit on acouncil and inform federal
counter-trafficking policy I wasregularly going toe-to-toe with
advisors from the DOJ andHomeland Security and Department
(18:37):
of Education about policies.
I was given a platform to usemy voice and affect change, and
that was an incredibly powerfuland healing experience for me
that I am profoundly gratefulfor.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Is there a policy that you can talk about that you
helped initiate?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
One of the things that I was really passionate
about in the two years that Iwas serving was the connection
between pornography andtrafficking.
And there's, you know, if youdid a Venn diagram, there's
certainly one circle would bepornography and one circle would
(19:21):
be sex trafficking, but thereis an intrinsic overlap, and
it's a pretty significantoverlap because pornography is
functionally just the marketingdepartment for sex trafficking,
and if you look at what sextrafficking is, there's an
exchange of money or somethingof value for sex.
(19:43):
That's certainly how we defineprostitution as well.
Pornography is justprostitution with a camera in
the room.
So there is an individual who'sbeing paid for sex, which,
across the board in the US,except a few counties here and
there, primarily in Nevada,prostitution is still illegal.
(20:06):
But if you put a camera in theroom and you pay an individual
for sex, then suddenly it'sfreedom of speech.
It is impossible to tell, basedon our screens, which
individuals are there by choiceand which ones are there because
of force, fraud or coercion.
And if they're performing onthe basis of force, fraud or
(20:31):
coercion, then it automaticallybecomes sex trafficking.
And so the policies that I wasreally passionate about
advocating for was morestringent restrictions and
intervention in pornography, andespecially the child sex abuse
material.
(20:52):
What once upon a time wascalled child pornography now has
been labeled child sex abusematerial, and so I was really
advocating passionately for thegovernment to act on laws that
are on our books and have beenargued all the way to the
Supreme Court and upheld by theSupreme Court, but are
(21:15):
overlooked and not implementedacross the US.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Why do you think that is that they're not implemented
in that realm?
Why do you think that is thatthey're not?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
implemented in that realm.
Comfort, universal guilt, Imean they're well over, well
over.
It's reported 67% of churchleaders regularly engage in
pornography, viewing pornography.
At least 36% of women admit toregularly engaging with
(21:50):
pornography.
And when it's so pervasive, ifwe make a big deal out of it,
then we're all guilty, and soit's easier to say it's a
victimless crime, it's art, it'syou know, who are you to judge
what these people are doing orsay that it's not healthy or not
helpful?
(22:10):
But when we look at thestatistics, the outflow of the
performers, the individuals thatare on the screen, and how
those line up to individuals whoare prostituted and individuals
who are trafficked, thelong-term damage to health, to
emotional well-being, to mentalhealth, is staggering.
(22:32):
But it's easier to just brushit off as boys will be boys no
harm, no foul kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Is there a success story that you can share with us
that you've been involved in?
Speaker 2 (22:52):
A success story that I've been involved in, you know.
Oh gosh, where do I start?
I got a message just this lastweek.
That's where I'll start, fromone of the girls that was in our
program when we were founded inThailand and she initially our
(23:17):
program in Thailand.
My husband and I were providingfoster care to teenage mama
babysits so teenage girls whowere coming out of exploitation
and were pregnant or had babiesas a result of their
exploitation, and we raisedmamas and babies together.
And, as you might imagine,foster care has its own level of
(23:39):
drama, but we were working withteenage girls.
Teenage girls have their ownunique version of drama.
Our teenage girls were motherswho conceived in violence, so
that's next level, and we andspeak English as my first
language.
Our girls were from thenorthern hill tribe region in
(24:13):
Thailand, so there was all thiscomplexity, but one of the girls
that came in struggled quite abit to integrate and work
towards healing and it has beena beautiful, beautiful thing to
watch.
There were moments that she wason the fence back and forth,
(24:33):
one foot in, one foot, beingtempted to return to
exploitation, and that lookingand feeling like it might be
empowering.
But I just got an email fromher earlier this week.
And not only is she free, she'sbeen working in another
nonprofit in her region of theworld caring for vulnerable moms
(24:54):
and babies, and she's now inthe process of starting her own
nonprofit to be more effectiveand strategic in
counter-trafficking in theregion of the world where she
lives.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Okay, as a survivor yourself, how do you navigate?
Discussing around trauma andresilience?
Okay, ensuring that yourmessage resonates with the broad
audience while remainingsensitive to those who have
experienced similar hardships.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
You know I lean heavily on Holy Spirit.
I pray always in the back of mymind when I'm sharing my story.
Obviously it is triggering tosome people and I can only like
bubble wrap it so much.
When you're talking about humantrafficking, there's a lot of
(25:50):
pervasive violence right At thesame time.
I think the key is for me whenI'm navigating these
conversations.
One of my mottos or policies istrying to slow down to the
speed of love, and that meansjust being fully present with
who I'm with and watching theirreaction and and listening.
(26:14):
I call it holy listeninglistening to what they're
sharing and not trying to imposemy solutions like this is what
you should do or this is themethod that you will find
healing, because I don't knowhow Jesus is going to bring them
to freedom and healing but tolisten authentically and deeply
(26:35):
and prayerfully and askingquestions like how can I love
and serve you today?
This is really terrible.
This is really terrible.
This is really hard and I'veexperienced some similar things
and I don't know what youranswer will be, but I can hold
you in prayer tenderly andfiercely.
What do you need from me?
(26:55):
And maybe they need solutions.
Likely they just need to beheard and maybe they need
solutions.
Likely, they just need to beheard.
And if I can give space forthem to be heard, then they not
only find the power in their ownvoice but they start feeling
heard and loved by the one whocreated them and who has never
left and forsaken them.
(27:37):
Your organization Conference 31,is that?
A faith-based organizationwhere I believe the love of
Christ compels me.
That's where I live and moveand have my being.
However, we don't proselytizeor force anybody to convert.
They're not our resources.
Our program, our staff is notdependent on somebody making a
(28:03):
profession of faith.
Our program is holistic.
We provide access to mentalhealth resources, therapy,
dental work, medical care,school, all of those things and
one of those pieces is regularlythe staff and the residents
(28:23):
meeting for devotions and prayertogether, and we facilitate it
in a very trauma-informed,invitational way.
Nobody is forced but everybodyis invited.
And once the residents find outthat what we're doing is
because we're compelled by thelove of Christ and they hear
other survivor stories who havebeen transformed by the love of
(28:47):
Christ, then they get curiousand they start leaning in.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I heard that there's a statistic that during the
Super Bowl, that during theSuper Bowl, that that's one of
the biggest days of the yearwhere sex trafficking happened.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Why do you think that is?
You know, we make a big dealout of the Super Bowl because
it's arguably the largest sportsevent in the US, is our Super
Bowl every year, but it's notjust specifically the Super Bowl
.
It's and this sounds icky, butit's wherever you get a bunch of
men together a bunch of mentraveling, drinking, celebrating
(29:35):
.
It can be a fishing competitionin Wyoming, it can be the Super
Bowl, it can be NBA games, itcan be college games Wherever
you get a large number of mentogether.
Trafficking is based on supplyand demand.
(29:57):
When you get a bunch of guyscelebrating and drunk together,
there's going to be a lot ofdemand, for what happens here
stays here, and so thetraffickers are going to bring
in individuals that they canexploit their vulnerabilities
and meet the demand with thecurrent trends of sex
(30:20):
trafficking, and how would youtell my listeners to also stay
informed and stay up to dateabout this horrific thing that's
going on?
I would say, find trafficking,counter-trafficking
(30:41):
organizations, specifically onesthat are survivor-led, because
those of us that are survivorsand leading organizations, we
have our ear to the ground in adifferent way.
We speak the native language oftrafficking and traffickers.
There's a lot of greatorganizations, though, so I
would encourage your followersto find organizations not just
(31:05):
mine, mine's, compass31.org.
You can find me anywhere, butthere's a lot of good
organizations, and they'realways posting on social media.
They're in the news, they'reposting what's happening in your
region of the world.
A lot of states, a lot ofcounties, have their own
developing task force.
There's one here, where I live,in Colorado, that, every month,
(31:28):
a collaborative of about 60different individuals and
organizations come together andtalk about what's happening in
our region and how do we getinvolved in a strategic way, and
it's a collaborative of medicalprofessionals and law
enforcement and NGOs andfaith-based communities and
concerned citizens all comingtogether to figure out how we
(31:50):
can solve this problem.
(32:11):
What encouragement would yougive to my listeners, whether
they're just here to listen to apodcast episode, or maybe even
someone that's you know, that'sbeen hit and trafficked?
I would say that trauma doesnot define us.
It equips us, that you are madein the image of God, one who
has never left or forsaken youfor a moment, despite the
darkest dark circumstances.
He wants to love you towardsfreedom.
(32:34):
And freedom isn't just possible, it's entirely probable.
So for those that haveexperienced trauma, I would
encourage them that way.
For for those that haveexperienced trauma, I would
encourage them that way.
For other people who are justconcerned, I would say do what I
do, slow down to the speed oflove.
See the person in front of you.
There's hurting people allaround us, whether it's domestic
(32:55):
violence or cancer or a deathin the family.
There's wounded people allaround who desperately need to
encounter the love of Christ.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Are there signs that?
I know I should end with thatquestion, but are there signs
that we can look for whetherit's a young child, teenager,
maybe even an adult?
Are there signs that we canlook for to see?
Hey, this person may be introuble.
This person may be a sextrafficking victim.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yes and no.
Yes, absolutely.
It requires us stopping ourbusy scurrying and scrolling.
We're always scurrying from oneplace to the next.
I got to get here.
I got to get there.
I got to pick up the kids.
I got to see the signs.
We have to be willing to putour phone away and stop
overbooking ourselves.
(34:07):
Leave margin in our lives sothat we can see the person in
front of us.
The signs that you can look forin my case, I was a straight-A
student.
I loved school.
I thrived at school, that wasmy safe place, but outside of
school, I was a straight-Astudent.
I loved school, I thrived atschool, that was my safe place,
but outside of school I was veryquiet and withdrawn, like I
(34:27):
drew the picture of mygrandfather in kindergarten.
There were several instanceslike that over my growing up
years that people, if they knewhow to intervene, might have
been able to intervene andinstead they just preferred the
status quo or didn't know whatto do so they did nothing.
(34:48):
So you know, behaviors ofself-harm, cutting certainly,
addictions, the earlier theaddictions start.
Individuals, especiallychildren or youth, experiencing
homelessness all of these arevulnerabilities Just at your
kitchen table if you have kids,nieces and nephews, if they have
(35:10):
a birthday party, it is likelythat one in three girls and one
in five boys will be sexuallyassaulted by the time they're 18
.
So sexual assault is a bridgeto exploitation.
It's one of thosevulnerabilities.
So, looking around at the kidsgathered at your dinner table
(35:30):
and going 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, am I seeing these kids?
Are they finding my home to bea safe place that, if something
happens, they would come tell me?
Those are our ways that we canbe strategic in intervening.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Well, jenny, thank you so much for coming on the
show today and tell us where canwe find your book.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yes, I have two books .
One is my own personal story,it's called the Lucky One, and
it is on Amazon and it'savailable in Kindle and Audible,
and then my newest book.
Actually, I have a few books,but my newest book is called the
Art of Healing NavigatingTrauma and Recovery with
Compassion, and it is also onAmazon.
(36:21):
So you can look up the LuckyOne or the Art of Healing by
Jenny Sue Jessen and you'll findme there.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Well, thank, you so much for coming on the show
again today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Thank you so much.
It's been an honor.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
It's been an honor.
Well, guys and girls, thank youso much for coming on and
listening today.
Again, please like and sharethis episode and go and check
out Jenny Xu's website and bookas well.
And check out my website aswell at wwwdorseywurzshowcom.
(36:59):
And until next time, god bless,bye-bye.
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