October 22, 2025 • 32 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:15):
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DoorsTours.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
Her name is Sarah Dinkerfield.
She is a lead pastor with herhusband in North Dakota.
She is passionate aboutevangelism and discipleship.
(00:40):
Embarrassing her cakes andsupporting worldwide makings.
Sarah, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Well, I always like to open up with a icebreaker
question.
And today's icebreaker questionis what is your favorite TV show
and why?
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Oh, my favorite TV show.
Well, I have to admit this outloud, huh?
My favorite TV show is GilmoreGirls.
I love it.
I love the idea of living in aquaint town where everybody
knows everybody.
And I know sometimes that canhave its negative connotations
as well, but I just love theidea of my grocer and the guy at
(01:28):
the coffee shop and the teachersat the school.
Everybody knows me and myfamily.
And I have all those extrapeople looking out for my kids.
I just love that idea, but Ialso love the banter.
The writing in that show isfantastic.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Yeah.
And I'm sure you're probablyliving out that, you know, real
life Gilmour living in uh Nocht.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
A little bit.
Yeah, we do have a little bit ofthat.
Our town is a little bit biggerthan what's represented in the
show, but yes, it does not uhphase me when I stop at the
store and I always run intosomebody that I know.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Can you tell us about your life growing up?
And you know, how did youbecome, you know, how did you,
you know, get into the faith andhow did you get to come to a
relationship with Christ?
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Yeah, I would love to share that.
So I grew up in Minnesota, rightin central Minnesota, and I grew
up with a single mom and ayounger sister.
When I was four years old, myparents uh discovered that it
was not quite working out fortheir marriage, and so they
ended up splitting when I wasfour.
(02:39):
But the largest tension that wasbetween the two of them was
their religious differences.
Um, my mom was born and raisedin Minnesota, grew up in a
Christian home, and my dad, onthe other hand, was born and
raised in the Middle East andwas raised in an Islamic home.
And so there's definitely notjust like religious differences,
(03:01):
but with that religiousdifference also came how we
raise our kids different, theexpectations of how we treat
family members and things likethat.
And so that was kind of thestart of my faith journey.
Uh, I learned a lot about adifferent religion, much younger
than probably most children findout about, whether they grow up
(03:24):
in a religious home or not, uh,learning that there are
different religions anddifferent faiths.
And it put me in this positionwhere I needed to figure out
what I wanted, even though Ididn't live with my dad.
Every child wants to pleasetheir parents.
And here I have parents that areon two opposite sides of the
spectrum.
And so as a kid, I had to figureout like, where do I stand?
(03:45):
And so uh over a period ofyears, but then also because of
certain events that had happenedin my life, one of those being a
near-death experience, Godreally began to show himself to
me.
Uh, Jesus became real.
He was not just words on a page,but how he provided for my
(04:05):
healing, how he provided for myfamily financially, and then
also the needs that we just had,like needing to put food on the
table because medical bills werejust wild.
Uh, just watching as Jesus,especially using the church,
came around our family and washelpful in that area.
I just started to discover thatJesus is like real.
(04:28):
He is not just a story.
And so I began to dig into thatmore in middle school and high
school.
I fell in love with the Bible,fell in love with the scriptures
and the stories of Jesus and thestories of the Old Testament.
And um, thankfully, I wasalready able to start making
those connections with the NewTestament and Old Testament
(04:50):
because it can be easy,especially as a student, to not
realize that there's aconnection between the two.
Um, and so that's really whatcatapulted me in my faith.
But then I took it another stepfurther and watching how the
church impacted my family andimpacted my life, I wanted to do
(05:11):
that.
I wanted to impact people'slives for the better when it
came to their faith and theirrelationship with Jesus and
helping them see that it is lifetransforming.
And so that's what kind ofpushed me, moved me into the
area of ministry.
And now my husband and I havebeen serving as pastors for over
20 years.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
What was that near life experience that you
mentioned?
What was that like?
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Yeah, so I was very young, I was almost five years
old, and uh, due to situation, Iended up falling off a moped
without a helmet on.
And um, I hit my head and hadlacerations all over my body.
And um, because I had hit myhead, obviously head injuries,
(05:56):
there's a lot of blood involvedwith that.
And the ER doctors ended uptelling my mother, if I had made
it even a minute later, I wouldhave bled to death because I was
that low on blood by the time Igot to the hospital.
And so the healing processobviously was very long, but
very traumatic as well.
And the Holy Spirit didn't justhelp me heal physically, but
(06:19):
helped me heal emotionally fromthat trauma as well.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
You mentioned that you're a league pastor now with
your husband, but you also weredoing good and gooding ministry
at one point.
Yeah.
What led you to that shift ofgoing from good and ministry to
league pastor?
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
God.
It was not, it was not somethingthat my husband and were
pursuing.
We actually joked that we wantedto be lifers with kids'
ministry.
We wanted to be kids' pastorsour entire life.
We loved it.
We loved serving the church inthis way and coming alongside
parents.
And it's just so life-giving forus.
(07:01):
So we had no desire to leave it.
And uh the Lord began to knockon our door.
I was like, oh, maybe we'regonna be doing missions.
We could do kids ministry inanother country.
Like that would be great.
And God was like, No, I gotsomething else for you.
So uh we took a lead pastorposition just two hours down the
(07:23):
road from where we were living,and and it is bad journey, a
journey I never expected totake, but it's been really good,
and God's been faithful, and Ican't believe I'm saying it, but
I I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
So, yeah.
We're getting this is a leadinto you know, um question about
your book, but you have aconcept called spiritual
hoarding, and what is the howdid that first resonate with
you?
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Yeah, so I I do have a book that's coming out
actually on April 8th, and it'scalled Leading Spiritual
Hoarders.
And it's this concept of we havepeople within our churches who
are hoarding the gospel.
And that can sound a littleconfusing at first, so let's
just look at what a hoarder is.
And we know that a hoarder issomeone who holds on to things
(08:18):
and has a hard time letting go.
Obviously, hoarding also can,it's a mental health
conversation as well.
And there's a lot of pieces toit, but getting down to the
nitty-gritty of we're holding onto things, whether we need them
or not, whether they'rebeneficial or not, holding on to
things and not getting rid ofit.
(08:39):
And uh, we have people in ourchurches who are holding on to
the gospel message and are notsharing it, but that is
something that Jesus asked hisdisciples that when he leaves,
he needs us to be the ones whocontinue to share and spread the
message of the gospel.
And so if we have Christians inour churches who are not sharing
(09:02):
the gospel, then they arehoarding it and they are not
allowing it to be a benefit tothose around them because
they're holding it tothemselves.
And uh it's it's really anepidemic in the church,
especially the American church,I've seen not just in the
churches we've served in, but asa whole.
The Big C church definitely hada problem with holding on to a
(09:25):
message that desperately needsto be shared.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Do you have any like specific number, specific, you
know, centi or whatnot of who isholding the gospel message?
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
There are a couple different um statistics out
there, and so I'm just gonnakind of average it out.
But the average is 75% of peoplewho consider themselves to be
Christians will never share thegospel ever.
They will hold it to themselvesand to the grave.
And so some studies show largernumbers, some show smaller
(10:03):
numbers, but 75 is about theaverage.
And so if we have people whocall themselves Christians and
will never share, that's anissue.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
What makes you think that, you know, why do you think
that is?
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
I think there's a a couple different reasons.
One might be fear.
There might be a fear of whatpeople are gonna think of them,
fear of a relationship thatmight be strained because of it,
especially if you have a familymember or a friend who is very
touchy when it comes toconversation of religion.
Uh, so there can be that fearfor sure.
(10:41):
Maybe they've watched otherpeople's relationships
disintegrate because of faithconversations.
But I also think there's anotherpiece that we have a lot, I've
noticed even just in our church,we have a lot of people who,
once they come to know Christ,they unless we tell them,
because unfortunately, a lot ofpeople aren't reading their
Bibles either.
(11:02):
So if we are not telling themthat it is an expectation from
Jesus that we're sharing thismessage, then they don't even
know they're supposed to.
And then if they don't know thatthey're supposed to, because in
our culture, American culture,we like to say, you do you, I'll
do me, and we'll live in harmonyand it'll be fine.
And so we keep our beliefs onanything, like even politics.
(11:26):
We'll keep that to ourselves andnot share because we're afraid
of you know what might happen.
And so this is just one of thosethings that we hold on to
ourselves.
Um so they might not know thatthey're supposed to, and once
they figure out they're supposedto, they're going, Well, how?
How do I do that?
I don't even know everythingyet.
And it's like, well, we don'tneed to know everything in order
(11:49):
to share what Jesus has done inour life.
We can continue to grow, andhopefully, people are growing
with us.
That is the hope.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
And it could be also the fact that people don't want
to, you know, be labeled as, youknow, the Christian knock up
that, you know, goes aroundtelling everybody about Christ.
You know, we don't we don't wantto, you know, be the type of
person that's always hittingsomebody with the Bible or with
(12:22):
the scripture either.
We need to come out and, youknow, be the ones that show love
and through that we can tellothers about Christ.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Most definitely.
And I'm sure because people haveprobably had that experience
with somebody who's, you know,maybe not actually hit them over
the head with the Bible, butmetaphorically have.
And yeah, you don't want to belabeled as that.
I I understand why people wouldfeel that way for sure.
Um, but we have to remember thechurch, unfortunately, is filled
with a bunch of imperfectpeople.
(12:55):
We're all trying to figure outhow to do this.
And unfortunately, because we'rehuman, sometimes we don't do a
very good job of it.
But um, yeah, I I think thatwould also be a reason for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (13:09):
What made you come to this conclusion of a
spiritual hoarding?
What made you decide to writeyour book?
SPEAKER_01 (13:19):
Yeah, it so as a Christian, especially as someone
who has family members who arevery much not living a life uh
that is centered on Christ.
This has always been on my mind,but seeing it from within the
church, I noticed it in um ourlast community that we lived in
(13:44):
before moving where we're atnow.
I was raising really littlekids, baby up to four or five
years old.
Uh, they were very young at thetime.
And I was meeting with this mom,and so for a backstory, we lived
in Williston, North Dakota forseven years.
And while we lived there, that'swhen it was the big oil boom,
(14:08):
the big Bakken oil boom,epicenter, wild crazy cities
growing like nobody, like it'sgrowing so fast that the water
treatment plant couldn't keepup.
Like that's the it was just aboom town.
And so we have people comingfrom all over the place, all
over the states, all over theworld.
And I'm getting to know a lot ofthese young moms because that's
(14:31):
the season of life that I was inat the time.
And I was meeting with thisyoung mom, and she it was
interesting.
She had grown up in the church,and she was in her 20s at this
point, and um wasn't reallyinterested in church, and
whatever the story was for that,I'm not sure.
But I was just kind of hearingher back life story.
She had grown up in the church,and she did not know most of the
(15:00):
stories, she didn't know thegospel message, she didn't, I
mean, she knew Jesus died on across and rose again, but that
was about the extent.
And I remember thinking for agirl who grew up in the church
and that's all that she knowsand remembers, like that's kind
(15:21):
of concerning.
And so I was like, okay, so ifshe grew up in the church and
doesn't know, how many people inmy community who maybe didn't
grow up in the church they don'tknow?
And if they're not willing towalk into a church, how are they
going to ever hear the story?
And so I I was very bold in myfaith.
(15:42):
I mean, I'm in ministry anyway,so I'm like, I'll talk about
Jesus all day long.
I have no problem with it.
But I started asking some womenfrom church that I knew, like,
hey, had have you um gotten toknow some of your new neighbors?
I knew they came to work forthis oil company, gotten to know
them and asking those questions,and then asking, have you ever
had an opportunity to have afaith conversation with them?
(16:03):
And they're like, I was like,oh, wouldn't that be fun to be
able to do that?
And then you could invite themto church or invite their kids
to come to our summerprogramming or or whatever.
And I was trying to use thatjust to kind of see what they
have talked about, and therewere so many people that weren't
talking.
So then I got to myselfthinking, well, if the people in
(16:24):
the church aren't tellinganybody, we really have a
problem.
And it was heightened for mebecause a lot of the people that
were moving to Williston at thetime, not everybody, but a lot
of them that were coming werecoming because it was a last
resort.
Nobody wishes upon themselves tomove to Podunkville, North
(16:45):
Dakota.
You know, like this is a lastresort.
I can get a job, can make somemoney, I can help our family get
out of debt.
Um, but what we were finding isthese families were already
hurting significantly beforethey even got there.
Lots of divorce or on the brinkof divorce, lots of broken
(17:05):
homes, lots of hurting people.
Um and then you get, especiallyyou get these young guys moving
to the oil field and they'remaking big money.
And what are they doing withthat money?
So now they're getting intodrugs and other things.
And it was just this ball ofpain.
And I'm sitting here thinking,we the church have the solution
(17:30):
to their pain.
But is the church sharing thesolution?
And it really broke my heart formy community and for the people
that live there.
And it was like, okay, this hasto change.
And if it has to change startingwith me, then it has to change
starting with me.
And so that's where it reallybegan to stir.
(17:53):
But then becoming lead pastorsopens your eyes to even more
because now I'm seeing thechurch as a whole and not just
families.
And so that has really just beenwhat continues to stir the fire
in me for sure.
And and discipleship in general,multiplication has become quite
a hot topic in the church overthe last couple of years.
(18:15):
And so I just happened to jumpon the train, I guess, at just
the right time.
But yeah, I I look at mycommunity now that I live in,
and there are so many people whoare hurting, and I have the
solution.
And why wouldn't I share that?
Why wouldn't I share that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:33):
You mentioned earlier that you had your mother
who was a Christian, but yourfather who was Middle Eastern,
you know, more than a Muslim.
Have you and they separated,have you stayed in contact with
him?
And how have you shared um thegospel mixes with him?
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Yeah, it's a great question.
With I don't have a very goodanswer.
So, as a young kid in elementaryschool, middle school, I was
very, very zealous about myfaith because I was very aware
of the spiritual state of myfather.
He still calls himself a Muslimto this day.
(19:22):
And burned a lot of bridges.
And um, and so we have neverreally recovered.
On top of that, when when youhave a relationship that hasn't
recovered from hurtful thingsthat were said, even if
forgiveness has been brought tothe table, there's also a
cultural difference with us,especially in the country that
(19:44):
he grew up in.
Being the man and being the dadof the family automatically
deserves respect.
And because of other things thathappened in our family that I'm
not going to mention, um Ididn't feel he earned that
respect.
And so there's also that pieceto us as well.
(20:04):
And so we have not been able toreally reconcile like I would
like for us to be able to.
I hope one day we can, but um wejust haven't gotten there yet.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
I wonder if that, you know, you just mentioned
there about burning business,you know, with people, with
family members, with friends,you know, co-workers, whoever it
might be that we know don't knowChrist or don't have that
personal relationship with him,you know, could that be one of
(20:38):
the barriers that, you know,stopping us from telling others
about him because we don't wantto burn the bridges of that
friendship or that relationship,you know, with that person.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
And I think that's why umone-on-one discipleship
especially is a wonderfulapproach because it is getting
to know someone because you careabout them.
It is sitting down for coffee,having a meal, um, you know,
maybe it's even sitting at thepark because your kids are
playing and just getting to knowone another, looking for open
(21:17):
opportunities to share aboutChrist as you're having a
conversation, as you're buildinga relationship, a friendship
with somebody, and not becauseyou're trying to use them as a
project or sneak in someconversation, but you're just
looking for opportunitiesbecause oftentimes opportunities
(21:37):
come up, either because they'relooking for more friends, maybe
they just move to the communityand they're lonely.
Well, the church can providefriendships, whether they
believe what the church ispreaching or not, like it can
provide friendships.
So there's that piece, but thenthere's the uh we have a lot of
people in our community who justfeel like uh a lack of purpose.
(22:02):
And so that's a greatopportunity because Jesus gives
us purpose, right?
And so there's all these ways tobe able to just crack open the
door, stick our foot in there alittle bit, say what Jesus has
done in our life based on whatthey're talking about, and just
seeing are they open for aconversation or not?
And if they're not, then we justleave it and we continue to pray
(22:24):
for more opportunities, but wedo it because we love them.
We care about them, we careabout their family, their
children, we care about theirrelationships with their parents
or their marriage or theircoworkers or their boss.
And because we care about thosethings, hopefully when we have
those conversations, we won'tburn bridges because that person
(22:47):
knows this person cares aboutme.
That's the number one priorityfor them.
It's not to convert me, it'sbecause they care about me.
And and I think that definitelyhelps with that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
When did you become interested in discipleship and
why are you passionate aboutYeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Since becoming lead pastors, being able to see how
the church offers discipleship,whether that's small groups,
Sunday school, those things,they're all really good things.
But if those groups get toolarge, there is a good group of
people who will not speak.
(23:27):
And um, I mean, for me, even asa person who I talk for a
living, I once a group gets pasta certain number, I don't want
to talk because it's just it'stoo many people to be vulnerable
with, and not that we need to bevulnerable about everything, but
our relationship with Jesus isan emotional thing, and I don't
(23:49):
necessarily want to share withthe world all of that, but I can
do that with a one-on-one orwith two or three people, and so
watching as the church doestheir best to provide
discipleship tools.
Um, I just saw a lack of uhopportunity for those who shut
(24:10):
down in larger groups.
And so even being able to takethose larger groups, if we can
help our small group leaderssay, hey, this is a great
opportunity.
You're gonna be meeting withthem for this many weeks.
Let's see if you could try tomeet with each of them at least
once during this quarter,one-on-one, because they may
have questions that they're notasking in the group.
(24:33):
And so, yeah, that kind of gotme started.
And then I thought, well, whydoes it have to just be in a
small group setting?
Why can't I just ask the girlthat I see at the coffee shop
every Monday if she wants tomeet with me a half an hour
before because we've gotten toknow each other, because we keep
running into each other and justgetting to know each other and
sharing what we love and whatwe're passionate about.
(24:54):
And for me, I love and ampassionate about Jesus.
And so yeah, I just I saw thatneed, and I think that's what
really kind of pushed and drovethat desire to see more of that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Yeah.
My pastor's very passionateabout discipleship because he
has the, you know, even tonight,I mean I I help out at the youth
group now, but they used to havethe, you know, well, they still
do have small groups, you know,sometimes they'll have men and
women, you know, separate,sometimes they'll have them
together.
(25:27):
And, you know, like you said,with the size of the group, uh,
you even sent out a letter oremail this week saying, hey,
let's have, you know, a smallergroup, uh three or four people,
you know, not six or seven.
And like you even said, youknow, allow each of them to
(25:48):
speak, give them time to speakand to talk.
And even though I, you know, Idon't do as much anymore, but uh
but I used to travel and speakand share my story.
I'm even a ordained uh minusself.
And but even sitting when I wasin those groups, I would be very
(26:12):
quiet.
You know, I'd be very, you know,maybe because my I'm an
introvert, I was very quiet, Iwouldn't speak up, you know, I'd
probably be afraid of what am Igonna say?
You know, will I say the wrongthing?
You know, will people look at meand say, don't think a pastor,
what is he talking about?
(26:33):
But yeah, I can I, you know,just just a little insight as to
what I've been through and, youknow, similar similar story to
what you were talking aboutthere.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
Yeah, and I think a lot of part, a big part of
discipleship is discovery.
We can't just regurgitateinformation.
We need to allow those thatwe're studying with or
discipling to discover thetruths of scripture for
themselves.
And if they're not interacting,then that discovery piece is not
(27:06):
happening.
And I think it that discoverypiece is what helps solidify our
faith because we're diggingthrough the word and we're
bouncing off of each other thethings that we're learning and
growing and um what we'reprocessing, and that really
helps solidify our faith andhelps us to be able to stand for
(27:27):
it, becomes that firm foundationbecause we've discovered.
And so if we're not allowingthat time of discovery, or we're
not adapting so that people canhave that discovery piece, then
we're definitely missingsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
What practical steps can pastors take to lead by
example in discipleship?
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Yeah, so the book is written mostly for pastors and
people in ministry, but it canbe for anybody.
And so you may notice thatthere's some verbiage in there
that you can tell I'm talkingpastor to pastor.
But um in my life as a person inministry, I can sit there and
tell all my people in my church,this is what Jesus expects you
(28:17):
to do as a believer.
If I'm not also doing that, Icannot expect the people in my
church to do that.
Just like as a parent, if I onebig thing in our house right now
that we're all like pulling ourhair out is when someone doesn't
refill the ice cube trays.
(28:39):
Okay.
So if I expect my children tofill those darn ice cube trays
when they empty them, I have tobe willing to fill them as well,
right?
I need them to see that I amdoing what I'm also asking them
to do.
And so it's the same in thechurch.
It's not just something that thepeople in my church have been
(29:00):
called to do.
It is something we all,including me, anyone who
considers themselves to be afollower of Jesus, this is what
we are called to do.
And so we need to do it.
And so that's where it starts isliving the life that we ask our
people to also live.
Um, but also another thing is uhI talk about it in my book a
(29:24):
couple of times with differentstories, but when I'm meeting
one-on-one with someone, I havethe expectation that it doesn't
end with us.
That after a period of time,when we both feel like this
person is growing and excitedand they are like ready.
And this could, for one person,could be one month.
(29:46):
For another person, this couldbe six months.
It depends on where they startedin their journey when we were
meeting.
But the expectation is theystart meeting with somebody at
some point as well.
Um, and that's where thatmultiplication factor comes in.
Because if I, as a pastor, justmeet with one person and then I
meet with another person andthen I meet with another person,
we're growing by one, it'sgrowth.
(30:09):
But if I'm meeting with someoneand then eventually the two of
us each start meeting withsomeone, and then eventually
Eventually, the four of us eachstart meeting with someone.
That multiplication factor comesin, and all of a sudden we are
uh helping each other grow inour walk with Jesus together as
a body, but also as a process ofthat, we're sharing the gospel
(30:32):
with people who may have nevereven heard of it before.
Because yes, we have people inthe United States who know
nothing about Jesus.
And so we got work to do.
SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
What encouragement would you give to a pastor who
is questioning if their circleever changed its culture?
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yeah, um, I would say anything is possible.
And and I say that because we dohave pastors in churches who are
feeling lost, who are feelingdefeated, who are feeling as if
there's no hope, because theyhave tried everything that they
(31:16):
know to try.
Um usually those feelings arebecause a church over time,
whether under that pastor ornot, that church over time has
become inward focused.
And so they're very concernedabout their own little group and
the health of their own littlegroup.
(31:37):
And they are forgetting that Godis asking them to also care for
those outside of the church.
And so it can be very hard,especially for smaller churches,
rural churches where there'sonly one pastor.
They can feel very discouragedif they are leading a church
that is inward focused.
And so I would say anything ispossible.
(32:00):
The Lord can do anything, He canheal anyone, He can change
perspectives, He can bring hopein places that felt hopeless.
And so I would just say, hey,Pastor, don't be discouraged.
Start by leading by example andnot parading it around and
(32:21):
saying in your sermons the nextSunday, I met with three people
this week, you know, but justliving it because they're gonna
see you.
They're gonna.
Hello everyone, thank you again for joining me
on another episode of the DoorsTours.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
Her name is Sarah Dinkerfield.
She is a lead pastor with herhusband in North Dakota.
She is passionate aboutevangelism and discipleship.
(00:40):
Embarrassing her cakes andsupporting worldwide makings.
Sarah, thank you so much forcoming on the show today.
SPEAKER_01 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Well, I always like to open up with a icebreaker
question.
And today's icebreaker questionis what is your favorite TV show
and why?
SPEAKER_01 (01:02):
Oh, my favorite TV show.
Well, I have to admit this outloud, huh?
My favorite TV show is GilmoreGirls.
I love it.
I love the idea of living in aquaint town where everybody
knows everybody.
And I know sometimes that canhave its negative connotations
as well, but I just love theidea of my grocer and the guy at
(01:28):
the coffee shop and the teachersat the school.
Everybody knows me and myfamily.
And I have all those extrapeople looking out for my kids.
I just love that idea, but Ialso love the banter.
The writing in that show isfantastic.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Yeah.
And I'm sure you're probablyliving out that, you know, real
life Gilmour living in uh Nocht.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
A little bit.
Yeah, we do have a little bit ofthat.
Our town is a little bit biggerthan what's represented in the
show, but yes, it does not uhphase me when I stop at the
store and I always run intosomebody that I know.
SPEAKER_00 (02:03):
Can you tell us about your life growing up?
And you know, how did youbecome, you know, how did you,
you know, get into the faith andhow did you get to come to a
relationship with Christ?
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Yeah, I would love to share that.
So I grew up in Minnesota, rightin central Minnesota, and I grew
up with a single mom and ayounger sister.
When I was four years old, myparents uh discovered that it
was not quite working out fortheir marriage, and so they
ended up splitting when I wasfour.
(02:39):
But the largest tension that wasbetween the two of them was
their religious differences.
Um, my mom was born and raisedin Minnesota, grew up in a
Christian home, and my dad, onthe other hand, was born and
raised in the Middle East andwas raised in an Islamic home.
And so there's definitely notjust like religious differences,
(03:01):
but with that religiousdifference also came how we
raise our kids different, theexpectations of how we treat
family members and things likethat.
And so that was kind of thestart of my faith journey.
Uh, I learned a lot about adifferent religion, much younger
than probably most children findout about, whether they grow up
(03:24):
in a religious home or not, uh,learning that there are
different religions anddifferent faiths.
And it put me in this positionwhere I needed to figure out
what I wanted, even though Ididn't live with my dad.
Every child wants to pleasetheir parents.
And here I have parents that areon two opposite sides of the
spectrum.
And so as a kid, I had to figureout like, where do I stand?
(03:45):
And so uh over a period ofyears, but then also because of
certain events that had happenedin my life, one of those being a
near-death experience, Godreally began to show himself to
me.
Uh, Jesus became real.
He was not just words on a page,but how he provided for my
(04:05):
healing, how he provided for myfamily financially, and then
also the needs that we just had,like needing to put food on the
table because medical bills werejust wild.
Uh, just watching as Jesus,especially using the church,
came around our family and washelpful in that area.
I just started to discover thatJesus is like real.
(04:28):
He is not just a story.
And so I began to dig into thatmore in middle school and high
school.
I fell in love with the Bible,fell in love with the scriptures
and the stories of Jesus and thestories of the Old Testament.
And um, thankfully, I wasalready able to start making
those connections with the NewTestament and Old Testament
(04:50):
because it can be easy,especially as a student, to not
realize that there's aconnection between the two.
Um, and so that's really whatcatapulted me in my faith.
But then I took it another stepfurther and watching how the
church impacted my family andimpacted my life, I wanted to do
(05:11):
that.
I wanted to impact people'slives for the better when it
came to their faith and theirrelationship with Jesus and
helping them see that it is lifetransforming.
And so that's what kind ofpushed me, moved me into the
area of ministry.
And now my husband and I havebeen serving as pastors for over
20 years.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
What was that near life experience that you
mentioned?
What was that like?
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
Yeah, so I was very young, I was almost five years
old, and uh, due to situation, Iended up falling off a moped
without a helmet on.
And um, I hit my head and hadlacerations all over my body.
And um, because I had hit myhead, obviously head injuries,
(05:56):
there's a lot of blood involvedwith that.
And the ER doctors ended uptelling my mother, if I had made
it even a minute later, I wouldhave bled to death because I was
that low on blood by the time Igot to the hospital.
And so the healing processobviously was very long, but
very traumatic as well.
And the Holy Spirit didn't justhelp me heal physically, but
(06:19):
helped me heal emotionally fromthat trauma as well.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
You mentioned that you're a league pastor now with
your husband, but you also weredoing good and gooding ministry
at one point.
Yeah.
What led you to that shift ofgoing from good and ministry to
league pastor?
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
God.
It was not, it was not somethingthat my husband and were
pursuing.
We actually joked that we wantedto be lifers with kids'
ministry.
We wanted to be kids' pastorsour entire life.
We loved it.
We loved serving the church inthis way and coming alongside
parents.
And it's just so life-giving forus.
(07:01):
So we had no desire to leave it.
And uh the Lord began to knockon our door.
I was like, oh, maybe we'regonna be doing missions.
We could do kids ministry inanother country.
Like that would be great.
And God was like, No, I gotsomething else for you.
So uh we took a lead pastorposition just two hours down the
(07:23):
road from where we were living,and and it is bad journey, a
journey I never expected totake, but it's been really good,
and God's been faithful, and Ican't believe I'm saying it, but
I I love it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
So, yeah.
We're getting this is a leadinto you know, um question about
your book, but you have aconcept called spiritual
hoarding, and what is the howdid that first resonate with
you?
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Yeah, so I I do have a book that's coming out
actually on April 8th, and it'scalled Leading Spiritual
Hoarders.
And it's this concept of we havepeople within our churches who
are hoarding the gospel.
And that can sound a littleconfusing at first, so let's
just look at what a hoarder is.
And we know that a hoarder issomeone who holds on to things
(08:18):
and has a hard time letting go.
Obviously, hoarding also can,it's a mental health
conversation as well.
And there's a lot of pieces toit, but getting down to the
nitty-gritty of we're holding onto things, whether we need them
or not, whether they'rebeneficial or not, holding on to
things and not getting rid ofit.
(08:39):
And uh, we have people in ourchurches who are holding on to
the gospel message and are notsharing it, but that is
something that Jesus asked hisdisciples that when he leaves,
he needs us to be the ones whocontinue to share and spread the
message of the gospel.
And so if we have Christians inour churches who are not sharing
(09:02):
the gospel, then they arehoarding it and they are not
allowing it to be a benefit tothose around them because
they're holding it tothemselves.
And uh it's it's really anepidemic in the church,
especially the American church,I've seen not just in the
churches we've served in, but asa whole.
The Big C church definitely hada problem with holding on to a
(09:25):
message that desperately needsto be shared.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
Do you have any like specific number, specific, you
know, centi or whatnot of who isholding the gospel message?
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
There are a couple different um statistics out
there, and so I'm just gonnakind of average it out.
But the average is 75% of peoplewho consider themselves to be
Christians will never share thegospel ever.
They will hold it to themselvesand to the grave.
And so some studies show largernumbers, some show smaller
(10:03):
numbers, but 75 is about theaverage.
And so if we have people whocall themselves Christians and
will never share, that's anissue.
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
What makes you think that, you know, why do you think
that is?
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
I think there's a a couple different reasons.
One might be fear.
There might be a fear of whatpeople are gonna think of them,
fear of a relationship thatmight be strained because of it,
especially if you have a familymember or a friend who is very
touchy when it comes toconversation of religion.
Uh, so there can be that fearfor sure.
(10:41):
Maybe they've watched otherpeople's relationships
disintegrate because of faithconversations.
But I also think there's anotherpiece that we have a lot, I've
noticed even just in our church,we have a lot of people who,
once they come to know Christ,they unless we tell them,
because unfortunately, a lot ofpeople aren't reading their
Bibles either.
(11:02):
So if we are not telling themthat it is an expectation from
Jesus that we're sharing thismessage, then they don't even
know they're supposed to.
And then if they don't know thatthey're supposed to, because in
our culture, American culture,we like to say, you do you, I'll
do me, and we'll live in harmonyand it'll be fine.
And so we keep our beliefs onanything, like even politics.
(11:26):
We'll keep that to ourselves andnot share because we're afraid
of you know what might happen.
And so this is just one of thosethings that we hold on to
ourselves.
Um so they might not know thatthey're supposed to, and once
they figure out they're supposedto, they're going, Well, how?
How do I do that?
I don't even know everythingyet.
And it's like, well, we don'tneed to know everything in order
(11:49):
to share what Jesus has done inour life.
We can continue to grow, andhopefully, people are growing
with us.
That is the hope.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
And it could be also the fact that people don't want
to, you know, be labeled as, youknow, the Christian knock up
that, you know, goes aroundtelling everybody about Christ.
You know, we don't we don't wantto, you know, be the type of
person that's always hittingsomebody with the Bible or with
(12:22):
the scripture either.
We need to come out and, youknow, be the ones that show love
and through that we can tellothers about Christ.
SPEAKER_01 (12:34):
Most definitely.
And I'm sure because people haveprobably had that experience
with somebody who's, you know,maybe not actually hit them over
the head with the Bible, butmetaphorically have.
And yeah, you don't want to belabeled as that.
I I understand why people wouldfeel that way for sure.
Um, but we have to remember thechurch, unfortunately, is filled
with a bunch of imperfectpeople.
(12:55):
We're all trying to figure outhow to do this.
And unfortunately, because we'rehuman, sometimes we don't do a
very good job of it.
But um, yeah, I I think thatwould also be a reason for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (13:09):
What made you come to this conclusion of a
spiritual hoarding?
What made you decide to writeyour book?
SPEAKER_01 (13:19):
Yeah, it so as a Christian, especially as someone
who has family members who arevery much not living a life uh
that is centered on Christ.
This has always been on my mind,but seeing it from within the
church, I noticed it in um ourlast community that we lived in
(13:44):
before moving where we're atnow.
I was raising really littlekids, baby up to four or five
years old.
Uh, they were very young at thetime.
And I was meeting with this mom,and so for a backstory, we lived
in Williston, North Dakota forseven years.
And while we lived there, that'swhen it was the big oil boom,
(14:08):
the big Bakken oil boom,epicenter, wild crazy cities
growing like nobody, like it'sgrowing so fast that the water
treatment plant couldn't keepup.
Like that's the it was just aboom town.
And so we have people comingfrom all over the place, all
over the states, all over theworld.
And I'm getting to know a lot ofthese young moms because that's
(14:31):
the season of life that I was inat the time.
And I was meeting with thisyoung mom, and she it was
interesting.
She had grown up in the church,and she was in her 20s at this
point, and um wasn't reallyinterested in church, and
whatever the story was for that,I'm not sure.
But I was just kind of hearingher back life story.
She had grown up in the church,and she did not know most of the
(15:00):
stories, she didn't know thegospel message, she didn't, I
mean, she knew Jesus died on across and rose again, but that
was about the extent.
And I remember thinking for agirl who grew up in the church
and that's all that she knowsand remembers, like that's kind
(15:21):
of concerning.
And so I was like, okay, so ifshe grew up in the church and
doesn't know, how many people inmy community who maybe didn't
grow up in the church they don'tknow?
And if they're not willing towalk into a church, how are they
going to ever hear the story?
And so I I was very bold in myfaith.
(15:42):
I mean, I'm in ministry anyway,so I'm like, I'll talk about
Jesus all day long.
I have no problem with it.
But I started asking some womenfrom church that I knew, like,
hey, had have you um gotten toknow some of your new neighbors?
I knew they came to work forthis oil company, gotten to know
them and asking those questions,and then asking, have you ever
had an opportunity to have afaith conversation with them?
(16:03):
And they're like, I was like,oh, wouldn't that be fun to be
able to do that?
And then you could invite themto church or invite their kids
to come to our summerprogramming or or whatever.
And I was trying to use thatjust to kind of see what they
have talked about, and therewere so many people that weren't
talking.
So then I got to myselfthinking, well, if the people in
(16:24):
the church aren't tellinganybody, we really have a
problem.
And it was heightened for mebecause a lot of the people that
were moving to Williston at thetime, not everybody, but a lot
of them that were coming werecoming because it was a last
resort.
Nobody wishes upon themselves tomove to Podunkville, North
(16:45):
Dakota.
You know, like this is a lastresort.
I can get a job, can make somemoney, I can help our family get
out of debt.
Um, but what we were finding isthese families were already
hurting significantly beforethey even got there.
Lots of divorce or on the brinkof divorce, lots of broken
(17:05):
homes, lots of hurting people.
Um and then you get, especiallyyou get these young guys moving
to the oil field and they'remaking big money.
And what are they doing withthat money?
So now they're getting intodrugs and other things.
And it was just this ball ofpain.
And I'm sitting here thinking,we the church have the solution
(17:30):
to their pain.
But is the church sharing thesolution?
And it really broke my heart formy community and for the people
that live there.
And it was like, okay, this hasto change.
And if it has to change startingwith me, then it has to change
starting with me.
And so that's where it reallybegan to stir.
(17:53):
But then becoming lead pastorsopens your eyes to even more
because now I'm seeing thechurch as a whole and not just
families.
And so that has really just beenwhat continues to stir the fire
in me for sure.
And and discipleship in general,multiplication has become quite
a hot topic in the church overthe last couple of years.
(18:15):
And so I just happened to jumpon the train, I guess, at just
the right time.
But yeah, I I look at mycommunity now that I live in,
and there are so many people whoare hurting, and I have the
solution.
And why wouldn't I share that?
Why wouldn't I share that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:33):
You mentioned earlier that you had your mother
who was a Christian, but yourfather who was Middle Eastern,
you know, more than a Muslim.
Have you and they separated,have you stayed in contact with
him?
And how have you shared um thegospel mixes with him?
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
Yeah, it's a great question.
With I don't have a very goodanswer.
So, as a young kid in elementaryschool, middle school, I was
very, very zealous about myfaith because I was very aware
of the spiritual state of myfather.
He still calls himself a Muslimto this day.
(19:22):
And burned a lot of bridges.
And um, and so we have neverreally recovered.
On top of that, when when youhave a relationship that hasn't
recovered from hurtful thingsthat were said, even if
forgiveness has been brought tothe table, there's also a
cultural difference with us,especially in the country that
(19:44):
he grew up in.
Being the man and being the dadof the family automatically
deserves respect.
And because of other things thathappened in our family that I'm
not going to mention, um Ididn't feel he earned that
respect.
And so there's also that pieceto us as well.
(20:04):
And so we have not been able toreally reconcile like I would
like for us to be able to.
I hope one day we can, but um wejust haven't gotten there yet.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
I wonder if that, you know, you just mentioned
there about burning business,you know, with people, with
family members, with friends,you know, co-workers, whoever it
might be that we know don't knowChrist or don't have that
personal relationship with him,you know, could that be one of
(20:38):
the barriers that, you know,stopping us from telling others
about him because we don't wantto burn the bridges of that
friendship or that relationship,you know, with that person.
SPEAKER_01 (20:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
And I think that's why umone-on-one discipleship
especially is a wonderfulapproach because it is getting
to know someone because you careabout them.
It is sitting down for coffee,having a meal, um, you know,
maybe it's even sitting at thepark because your kids are
playing and just getting to knowone another, looking for open
(21:17):
opportunities to share aboutChrist as you're having a
conversation, as you're buildinga relationship, a friendship
with somebody, and not becauseyou're trying to use them as a
project or sneak in someconversation, but you're just
looking for opportunitiesbecause oftentimes opportunities
(21:37):
come up, either because they'relooking for more friends, maybe
they just move to the communityand they're lonely.
Well, the church can providefriendships, whether they
believe what the church ispreaching or not, like it can
provide friendships.
So there's that piece, but thenthere's the uh we have a lot of
people in our community who justfeel like uh a lack of purpose.
(22:02):
And so that's a greatopportunity because Jesus gives
us purpose, right?
And so there's all these ways tobe able to just crack open the
door, stick our foot in there alittle bit, say what Jesus has
done in our life based on whatthey're talking about, and just
seeing are they open for aconversation or not?
And if they're not, then we justleave it and we continue to pray
(22:24):
for more opportunities, but wedo it because we love them.
We care about them, we careabout their family, their
children, we care about theirrelationships with their parents
or their marriage or theircoworkers or their boss.
And because we care about thosethings, hopefully when we have
those conversations, we won'tburn bridges because that person
(22:47):
knows this person cares aboutme.
That's the number one priorityfor them.
It's not to convert me, it'sbecause they care about me.
And and I think that definitelyhelps with that.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
When did you become interested in discipleship and
why are you passionate aboutYeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
Since becoming lead pastors, being able to see how
the church offers discipleship,whether that's small groups,
Sunday school, those things,they're all really good things.
But if those groups get toolarge, there is a good group of
people who will not speak.
(23:27):
And um, I mean, for me, even asa person who I talk for a
living, I once a group gets pasta certain number, I don't want
to talk because it's just it'stoo many people to be vulnerable
with, and not that we need to bevulnerable about everything, but
our relationship with Jesus isan emotional thing, and I don't
(23:49):
necessarily want to share withthe world all of that, but I can
do that with a one-on-one orwith two or three people, and so
watching as the church doestheir best to provide
discipleship tools.
Um, I just saw a lack of uhopportunity for those who shut
(24:10):
down in larger groups.
And so even being able to takethose larger groups, if we can
help our small group leaderssay, hey, this is a great
opportunity.
You're gonna be meeting withthem for this many weeks.
Let's see if you could try tomeet with each of them at least
once during this quarter,one-on-one, because they may
have questions that they're notasking in the group.
(24:33):
And so, yeah, that kind of gotme started.
And then I thought, well, whydoes it have to just be in a
small group setting?
Why can't I just ask the girlthat I see at the coffee shop
every Monday if she wants tomeet with me a half an hour
before because we've gotten toknow each other, because we keep
running into each other and justgetting to know each other and
sharing what we love and whatwe're passionate about.
(24:54):
And for me, I love and ampassionate about Jesus.
And so yeah, I just I saw thatneed, and I think that's what
really kind of pushed and drovethat desire to see more of that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
Yeah.
My pastor's very passionateabout discipleship because he
has the, you know, even tonight,I mean I I help out at the youth
group now, but they used to havethe, you know, well, they still
do have small groups, you know,sometimes they'll have men and
women, you know, separate,sometimes they'll have them
together.
(25:27):
And, you know, like you said,with the size of the group, uh,
you even sent out a letter oremail this week saying, hey,
let's have, you know, a smallergroup, uh three or four people,
you know, not six or seven.
And like you even said, youknow, allow each of them to
(25:48):
speak, give them time to speakand to talk.
And even though I, you know, Idon't do as much anymore, but uh
but I used to travel and speakand share my story.
I'm even a ordained uh minusself.
And but even sitting when I wasin those groups, I would be very
(26:12):
quiet.
You know, I'd be very, you know,maybe because my I'm an
introvert, I was very quiet, Iwouldn't speak up, you know, I'd
probably be afraid of what am Igonna say?
You know, will I say the wrongthing?
You know, will people look at meand say, don't think a pastor,
what is he talking about?
(26:33):
But yeah, I can I, you know,just just a little insight as to
what I've been through and, youknow, similar similar story to
what you were talking aboutthere.
SPEAKER_01 (26:43):
Yeah, and I think a lot of part, a big part of
discipleship is discovery.
We can't just regurgitateinformation.
We need to allow those thatwe're studying with or
discipling to discover thetruths of scripture for
themselves.
And if they're not interacting,then that discovery piece is not
(27:06):
happening.
And I think it that discoverypiece is what helps solidify our
faith because we're diggingthrough the word and we're
bouncing off of each other thethings that we're learning and
growing and um what we'reprocessing, and that really
helps solidify our faith andhelps us to be able to stand for
(27:27):
it, becomes that firm foundationbecause we've discovered.
And so if we're not allowingthat time of discovery, or we're
not adapting so that people canhave that discovery piece, then
we're definitely missingsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (27:45):
What practical steps can pastors take to lead by
example in discipleship?
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Yeah, so the book is written mostly for pastors and
people in ministry, but it canbe for anybody.
And so you may notice thatthere's some verbiage in there
that you can tell I'm talkingpastor to pastor.
But um in my life as a person inministry, I can sit there and
tell all my people in my church,this is what Jesus expects you
(28:17):
to do as a believer.
If I'm not also doing that, Icannot expect the people in my
church to do that.
Just like as a parent, if I onebig thing in our house right now
that we're all like pulling ourhair out is when someone doesn't
refill the ice cube trays.
(28:39):
Okay.
So if I expect my children tofill those darn ice cube trays
when they empty them, I have tobe willing to fill them as well,
right?
I need them to see that I amdoing what I'm also asking them
to do.
And so it's the same in thechurch.
It's not just something that thepeople in my church have been
(29:00):
called to do.
It is something we all,including me, anyone who
considers themselves to be afollower of Jesus, this is what
we are called to do.
And so we need to do it.
And so that's where it starts isliving the life that we ask our
people to also live.
Um, but also another thing is uhI talk about it in my book a
(29:24):
couple of times with differentstories, but when I'm meeting
one-on-one with someone, I havethe expectation that it doesn't
end with us.
That after a period of time,when we both feel like this
person is growing and excitedand they are like ready.
And this could, for one person,could be one month.
(29:46):
For another person, this couldbe six months.
It depends on where they startedin their journey when we were
meeting.
But the expectation is theystart meeting with somebody at
some point as well.
Um, and that's where thatmultiplication factor comes in.
Because if I, as a pastor, justmeet with one person and then I
meet with another person andthen I meet with another person,
we're growing by one, it'sgrowth.
(30:09):
But if I'm meeting with someoneand then eventually the two of
us each start meeting withsomeone, and then eventually
Eventually, the four of us eachstart meeting with someone.
That multiplication factor comesin, and all of a sudden we are
uh helping each other grow inour walk with Jesus together as
a body, but also as a process ofthat, we're sharing the gospel
(30:32):
with people who may have nevereven heard of it before.
Because yes, we have people inthe United States who know
nothing about Jesus.
And so we got work to do.
SPEAKER_00 (30:44):
What encouragement would you give to a pastor who
is questioning if their circleever changed its culture?
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
Yeah, um, I would say anything is possible.
And and I say that because we dohave pastors in churches who are
feeling lost, who are feelingdefeated, who are feeling as if
there's no hope, because theyhave tried everything that they
(31:16):
know to try.
Um usually those feelings arebecause a church over time,
whether under that pastor ornot, that church over time has
become inward focused.
And so they're very concernedabout their own little group and
the health of their own littlegroup.
(31:37):
And they are forgetting that Godis asking them to also care for
those outside of the church.
And so it can be very hard,especially for smaller churches,
rural churches where there'sonly one pastor.
They can feel very discouragedif they are leading a church
that is inward focused.
And so I would say anything ispossible.
(32:00):
The Lord can do anything, He canheal anyone, He can change
perspectives, He can bring hopein places that felt hopeless.
And so I would just say, hey,Pastor, don't be discouraged.
Start by leading by example andnot parading it around and
(32:21):
saying in your sermons the nextSunday, I met with three people
this week, you know, but justliving it because they're gonna
see you.
They're gonna.
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