The Divine Dialogue: Understanding Prayer for Healing with Rev. David Chotka

The false dichotomy between medicine and miracles has troubled believers for generations, leaving many caught between their faith and practical healthcare decisions. In this profound conversation with Dr. David Chotka, we unravel this tension by exploring how scripture itself demonstrates the harmonious relationship between divine intervention and medical treatment.

Dr. Chotka shares his own dramatic healing story—diagnosed with Ramsey-Hunt syndrome that paralyzed his face, doctors declared his preaching career over. Medical science offered no hope for recovery. Yet through specific prayer and prophetic words, he experienced complete restoration that his physician acknowledged was "beyond scientific explanation." Despite this miraculous experience, Dr. Chotka readily takes antibiotics when needed, modeling a balanced approach to health and healing.

The heart of our discussion reveals five distinct pathways God uses for healing: instantaneous miracles, natural restoration processes, medical treatments developed through human ingenuity, suffering that lacks immediate explanation, and the final crossing into eternity. These pathways aren't competing alternatives but complementary approaches that often intertwine throughout our healing journeys.

Perhaps most moving is Dr. Chotka testimony of his wife's healing from muscular dystrophy after twenty years of prayer without visible results. The breakthrough came not when they intensified their requests, but when they shifted focus to "seek the healer, not the healing." This profound reorientation—asking how they could serve God with diminishing capacity rather than demanding restoration—preceded the miraculous intervention that defied medical explanation.

Whether you're struggling with an ongoing health challenge, supporting someone who is, or simply seeking to understand how faith and medicine work together, this episode offers both practical wisdom and spiritual encouragement. Join us in discovering how to pray effectively for healing while honoring both the supernatural power of God and the natural remedies He's provided through human innovation.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, thanks again for joining us on
another episode of the DorseyRose Show.
Today we have a special guestwith us.
He was here with us severalmonths ago and his name is Dr
David Zocker.
He is the founder and directorof Spirit Equip Ministries.

(00:20):
He has served on the chair ofthe Alliance Blair Team, the
National Blair Equipping Team ofthe Alliance in Canada, for
more than 20 years.
He is the author, conferencespeaker, director of Renewal
Society, a writer and a Blairmobilizer.

(00:42):
A writer and a prayer mobilizer.
David has served his Lord as achurch planter, a solo pastor,
an associate and as a leadpastor of a multi-staff church
in the Canadian province ofBritish Columbia, alberta and

(01:03):
Ontario.
That's it, david.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show again today.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, thank you for having me back.
We've had a little comedy oferrors to get ourselves back
here.
We kept missing each other, soI'm delighted that you have
invited me back and I'm verythankful, and I'm looking
forward to the interview.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, I wanted to, you know, finish that interview and
you know I felt like we misseda couple of questions in that
last interview and I wanted tocome on and finish off the rest
of these questions that I hadfor you.
Sure, and one of the questions,first question.
Then you mentioned the story inthe last episode and we can get

(01:45):
to that in a minute.
But one of the questions issome find it difficult to
reconcile a need for medicalcare and believing in miraculous
healing.
What can you tell us about therelationship between medicine
and miracle?

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Well, I have a chapter called Medicine, miracle
and Mystery.
That's in the book and thereason that's there is because I
don't think there's anyconflict at all between medical
science and faith in the Lord.
And the reason I say that isbecause the Bible itself
testifies to people usingmedical solutions when they had
access to miracle.
Let me give you the very beststory.

(02:26):
I think it's a hilarious story.
It's in 2 Kings, 20.
It's also in Isaiah 38.
It's the story of Hezekiah, kingof Judah, who was one of the
good guys.
I mean, you know this.
If you read the Bible, you knowthat all the northern kings
were bad 200 years of bad andthe southern kingdom had about
eight kings out of the total of,I think, 16 or 17, who were

(02:50):
either very good or pretty good.
So it wasn't exactly batting1,000 when it came to this.
But one of the very good oneswas a guy by the name of
Hezekiah and Isaiah the prophetwas his contemporary.
And Hezekiah has gone aroundteaching the word of the Lord
and taking down the Baal altarsand the Asherah poles and he's
doing his best to try andestablish the rule of God in the

(03:12):
country and he gets very sick.
And Isaiah the prophet I mean,the guy was 66 chapters.
He marches into the king'spalace, stands next to the king
and says you're dead, it's over,it's history.
Put your house in order, you'renot going to live.
Now I don't know about you, butif I heard a major prophet like
that say that word, I would bein a bad way.

(03:32):
Anyway, he turns to face thewall and then he weeps bitter
tears.
This is from the second king'saccount and it actually he
doesn't even say oh God, heal me, he just says oh God, remember
how I have served you, rememberwhat I've done.

(03:52):
And as he's praying the prayerand Isaiah is leaving, isaiah
gets a second download from theLord and he goes back and he
says tell Hezekiah, the leaderof my people, I'm adding 15
years to his life.
And so he goes into the king'spresence, he says this word and
the king says isn't that nice?
Prove it.
So anyway, this you know.
By the way, the tale is soJewish, the posture of being
Jewish is to argue with God whenyou get into your solution.

(04:14):
It's a bargaining kind of thing.
So you see that, with Moses allthe time and Jeremiah, now,
here you have the king.
Anyway, the point is he hasthis thing and he says to Isaiah
prove it.
And so Isaiah says well, whatdo you want?
Do you want the shadow to godown 10 steps, or do you want
the shadow to go backwards 10steps?
He said, oh, down that's easy,up that's hard, I want the hard
one.
So it says that Isaiah criesout to the Lord, which is loud

(04:40):
prayer.
He prays this loud prayer and,lo and behold, the shadow moves
back 10 steps.
And so Hezekiah sees themiracle.
Isaiah sees the miracle.
And then Isaiah says to theking now, here's what you got to
do Get yourself a fake poultice, put it over top of that broil,
suck the poison out.
You're going to be fine.
Then he writes a little song.

(05:07):
So the point I'm making here isthat text in the Old Testament
makes clear that in the mind ofIsaiah and in the mind of
Hezekiah and in the mind ofwhoever it was that compiled the
scripture after Isaiah passed,all of them believed that there
was absolutely no conflictbetween using medicine and
praying for miracles.
And so here's the summary ofthe narrative he gets a
prophetic utterance, he's going.
Summary of the narrative hegets a prophetic utterance he's
going to be dead.
He prays a prayer asking forGod to remember him, he gets

(05:30):
another prophetic utterancesaying he's going to live.
He pushes back against the kingand gets a nature miracle after
a prayer and then he has totake his medicine.
So actually right now I'm onthe end of a course of
antibiotics because I had an earinfection and so I didn't
hesitate to do that and I askedmy friends to pray and it's been
a long infection.

(05:51):
But listen, the reason I wrotethe book is because I wanted to
unpack the thesis out there thatthere's only one kind of
healing the instant heal, orthere's no kind of healing, it
never happens.
I wanted to go great againstthose two worldviews because how
do I say this?
They are partially correct butnot informed by the whole

(06:14):
package.
So the last chapter, the firstchapter in the book, tells some
healing stories and then, as wego through the book, my
co-writer, maxi Dunham, and Iunderscore different aspects of
how to prepare for prayer forhealing.
We always intersperse a storyor two in there.
Sometimes there's processhealing, sometimes there's
instant healing, sometimesthere's bearing with suffering.
Anyway, the summary chapter atthe end of the book names five

(06:38):
things that can happen in prayerfor healing.
Number one is what I call theinstant heal.
I have been the recipient of it.
My wife and my son and mydaughter have all been the
recipient of it.
I had a paralyzed face andactually the story wound up on
CBN and they don't put storieson unless they're medically
verified.
So I had something calledRamsey-Hunt syndrome where my

(06:58):
whole face was paralyzed becauseI had a shingles infection in
my left ear and I was past theordinary treatment window
because they didn't discover ituntil almost a week or a little
bit longer than a week.
After this thing happened, thedoctor said to me and this one
isn't in the book, this is theCBN interview the doctor said to
me you're never going to getyour face.
You might get 10-15%, butyou're not going to get your

(07:20):
face back.
And I had been a preacher for30 years.
So it was called Ramsey-Huntsyndrome and what it meant was
that this shingles thing wentinto my nerve and caused the
nerve to expand into the sheath.
Now, if you're young, likeyou're in your 20s, your odds
are pretty good.
So actually, justin Bieber hadthis in his 20s and he recovered

(07:41):
completely, because if you havesteroids and antivirals really
quickly when you're young, it'srelatively well, it's not easy
but it's curable.
And as you get past 30, itbecomes less so.
As you get past 40, it's a50-50 shot.
When you get into your 50s youalmost have no chance.
And I was 53 when the thinghappened.

(08:03):
Anyway, the bottom line was thedoc said you're not going to
speak again, you're going tohave to look for some other kind
of work.
And my face paralyzed, from myeyebrow on my left side all the
way down to the upper corner onmy right side on my face, and I
couldn't close my eyes.
My taste sensations were funny.
I remember having a piece oftoast and it tasted like sugar.

(08:24):
You know that kind of thing,some kind of neurological thing
going on here.
And when I was raced over tothe doctor after two visits they
told me that I'd never speakagain.
Now, that's a terrible thingfor a preacher and it was my
only means of livelihood and mywife was a teacher.
Sorry, muscular dystrophy, themyotonic dystrophy form.

(08:46):
So I'm somebody who believes inmiracle and lives with the
reality that the fallen world ishere and there are people who
are suffering from afflictionsand God grants them one of these
five pathways.
But anyway, the bottom line wasthere was a lady in my church
who prayed for me.
Her name was Gail, and Gail isfriends to this very day for

(09:09):
lots and lots and lots ofreasons.
One of them is this story.
But she fasted and prayed, cameto see me and all kinds of
people had come over andscreamed scripture at me.
That I already knew they weretelling me that I had to buck up
.
That kind of thing.
Oh, jesus is going to heal you.
Just start naming yourconfession.
Meanwhile I couldn't sayanything, right?
Anyway, she prayed and as sheprayed she had a scripture.

(09:34):
It was the story of the ApostlePaul at the end of the Acts.
You know where he gets in ashipwreck and he goes on shore
and a snake latches onto hiswrist.
You probably can record thestory.
Anyway, everybody on the islandsays, oh, he must have been a
murderer.
Justice is caught up with him.
He's going to die.
That's a venomous snake.
He shakes the snake off andthen they say, oh, he's a god.

(09:56):
He's going to have it.
Go from calling him a murdererto calling him a god.
Anyway, that hand was the handthat started the revival, the
hand that shook off the snake heprayed over Publius'
father-in-law.
Publius' father-in-law wasinstantly healed of dysentery
and the whole island meets theLord.
Anyway, this lady quotes thescripture to me and she says you

(10:19):
have been working excessivelyand I had been.
There was a very severesituation that I had to sit in
on for days and nights whilesomebody was dying, without
family, and I was exhausted.
I still had to maintain myroutine of preaching, three
services and pastoral care toothers and so on.
I was just fried.
And this thing happened when Iwas very, very, very weary.

(10:41):
Just after the man's funeral Iburied him and he died a good
old, ripe age.
But he died quickly and I wasin this room and he didn't have
a lot of family.
Anyway, bottom line was, afterthis I got this infection and
they said it was Ramsey and Iwasn't going to speak again.
So this lady said this to me.
Now nothing happened.
When she said it, that was aFriday night.

(11:01):
On Sunday.
My wife said David, you can'tgo anywhere.
The associates are covering thepulpit.
Why don't we just go south andvisit my cousin David, who's a
preacher, and we have never beenable to get to his church
because he is on the same Sundayas you do.
I said, oh, okay.
So I said Liz, you're going tohave to drive.

(11:22):
I don't have it in me to drive.
I'm sleeping 16 hours a day.
So the two, two and a half hourdrive south of where we were,
got in the car and I leaned therecliner back and I had those
cushion pillows around my headand I fell asleep, woke up in
that town, went into the churchand the pastor, whose name was
also David, walked up to me andsaid what happened to you?
And I said, oh, my face isparalyzed, I can't speak.

(11:45):
I'm on the other corner.
And he said well, can we gatherthe elders to pray for you
after church?
That's what the Bible says.
I said, oh, thank you.
So anyway, it was a beautifulservice, it was a lovely
testimony from somebody who wasvisiting and there was a good
preach, solid word.
But anyway, at the end PastorDavid got up and said hey, my

(12:06):
cousin's husband, david, who's apastor, has a paralyzed face,
it's would you please intercedefor him.
And they gathered the eldersaround me to start to pray.
And at that moment I looked upand a lady walked in, an ally
for church.
She was living in a differenttime zone and she had moved over

(12:27):
time zones to visit a friendand really want to go to church.
She got the timer on by an hourbecause she.
So she and she stands up in thechurch, at the back of the
church, while the elders havegathered, after he has made his
explanation.
She enters after theexplanation, so she didn't hear
a thing.
Has made his explanation, sheenters after the explanation, so
she didn't hear a thing.
And she stands up and she saysthe enemy has taken advantage.

(12:48):
You must shake this off, thevery same words that my friend
Gail said on the Friday, andwhen you do, it will be a
testimony for the gospel hereand around the world.
Well, gail had said that on theFriday night they didn't know
each other, they weren't relatedto each other, they weren't
friends.
There are things that Gail saidon Friday.
This woman said on Sunday in achurch we had never been to

(13:12):
before.
So the goosebumps are going upand down my spine and I'm saying
oh man, isn't that marvelous.
But my jaw still didn't heal,my eye was still open, nothing
was happening.
So you know, I hit Tuesdaymorning after that, and on
Tuesday morning, as I am takingmy last bit of medication and

(13:32):
nothing had done any change, thedoc said you can try taking
these meds.
You're past the treatmentwindow, but it's like giving you
water It'll hydrate you butit's not going to do anything to
heal this affliction.
As on Tuesday morning I said toGod that's it.
I am beyond medicine.
The only thing that will happenhere is if you send a miracle.

(13:54):
If not, I'm going to have toget a new kind of job.
I'm going to have to learn howto work with my hands instead of
my mouth or my speaking,visiting or whatever.
And I am still utterly unableto have even energy.
God have mercy.
And I was sleeping 12 to 16hours a day.
And so I woke up.
I went to bed.
After I prayed the prayer, mywife woke me up for supper and

(14:18):
suddenly I felt tinkling in thecorner of the eyebrow that I
hadn't been able to move for, Ithink, three weeks.
And I was able to move it justa little tiny fraction, just
talking.
So I said get over here.
So she came up and I tried tomove it and she said yes, dear,
not go to bed.
So the next day I woke up inthe morning, no change.

(14:42):
And at seven o'clock at night,same time, I felt the same
tingling in the corner of myeyebrow, like an hour after the
dentist.
You know, you bet the dentisthad a needle.
Anyway, I was able to open andclose my eye for the first time
in weeks.
So I called her again and shecame and she said something's
happening.
You don't usually get better atnight.

(15:03):
You get better in the morning.
This is somebody's prayingsomewhere.
And over the course of the nextseven days all of my faiths
came back.
Now I was booked in to see thedoctor the next week and he had
already arranged to writemedical notes for me so that I
could make application forgovernment programs for
retraining, so I could have acareer path, and so he had to

(15:25):
officially sign off on this.
So the following Tuesday I gointo the doctor's office.
He sits, I sit him down, hesays David, how you doing?
And I went like this blink myeye and I said doc, I'm fine,
how are you?
He said you can't do that,that's medically impossible.
I said, yeah, it is, you haveRamsey-Hunt syndrome, you can't

(15:45):
do that.
I said yeah, it is, you haveRamsey-Hunt syndrome, you can't
do that.
I said I know I can't do that,but I can.
And he said what happened.
And so I told him the story Ijust told you about the
scripture, about Gail prayingthat prayer, about the enemy
taking advantage and shaking offthe snake, and then the person
repeating it on the Sunday, andI said I believe that the Lord
Jesus is healed.
Now this doctor sat back and hesaid look, I am a kind of

(16:09):
part-time believer, I'm a lousy.
My wife, she's a good Catholic.
He said me, no, I'm not.
And so he sat back and he saidI have a lot of people of faith
come into my office, lots andlots and lots, and all of them
want the miracle and some ofthem claim it and most of them

(16:31):
have a placebo effect and I haveto treat them with medicine.
In your case, I am prepared toadmit that this is outside the
realm of ordinary science.
And he signed the note, and soI have a note for that and I
have a note from my wife'smiraculous healing from muscular
dystrophy.
And, to put this in perspective, I just got an antibiotic for

(16:52):
my ear because I had an earinfection.
So this medicine and miraclething is intertwined.
So I named five pathways instantcure and I didn't believe in
this before, but I do now.
Natural healing.
I'll tell you why.
When my wife had musculardystrophy, if she damaged a
muscle, it never came back and Iknew at the end of my days I

(17:16):
was going to be pushing thatwheelchair, because this is the
girl I love and this is the oneI'm going to serve.
I knew that After she washealed and she was healed
miraculously in front of a crowdof 650 witnesses he wrote a
note for her too, after he knewus five years.
Anyway, she would heal.
If a muscle was damaged aftershe was healed, the muscle

(17:40):
tissue would regrow.
Now I knew the before and Iknew the after and I'm now
convinced that what we callnatural healing where you cut
your finger and you wash it offand you put a bandage on top of
it that's just as miraculous asthe rest.
The third is the pathway to aremedy where somebody has done
research, and you probably knowpeople just like this.

(18:01):
My wife's sister had a neighbornext door who suffered from
polio back in the day.
She was vaccinated.
The neighbor wasn't.
The neighbor died.
She made a decision that shewould study medicine so that she
could alleviate pain andsuffering, because she didn't
want people to go through whatthe neighbor did next door.
I mean, there's all kinds ofpeople with a story just like

(18:22):
that and they've spent 20, 25,30 years researching vaccines or
researching how medical therapyworks or an application for
something, etc.
Many of them are believers inJesus, they love the Lord and
they've given their lives tofind one cure.
If you get the affliction, donot turn away the gift of

(18:43):
someone's sacrifice.
So that's a pathway to a remedy.
The fourth one is sufferingwithout meaning, and this is
where you pass through somethingand there is no explanation
short of glory.
Sometimes you get anexplanation years after it
happened.
So the meaningless suffering ofJoseph the patriarch turns into

(19:03):
the salvation of two nations,egypt and Israel.
So sometimes you get a hint,but you find that out, for you
know how was it now, he wasthere 13 years.
He had no idea what he passedthrough all that.
Thank you very much.
Right, so sometimes you havethese meaningless things.
The last is the miraculouscrossing.
Now, all five of those are inScripture.

(19:24):
All five of those are inscripture.
All five of them.
And all five of them sometimesintertwine and overlap.
And uh, I did this atCornerstone TV.
I did an interview for them andI described it this way, and
I've done that ever since then.
So here's what I did.
I said look, scientificendeavor works like this.
You have, you have, um, anevent.

(19:44):
You have somebody who makes adecision to figure out how the
event works, whether it's amedical thing or whether it's
something else.
They put together a hypothesisand they test this thing to see
whether or not their idea aboutthis is true.
And after they've tested itsufficiently, they come to a
trajectory where they say, well,this particular kind of
medicine works on thisparticular kind of affliction,

(20:06):
and they labor at it, and that'scalled the scientific
enterprise.
It's limited by the ability ofthe human to reason and it goes
in this path like this.
Now, faith is a relationshipwith Jesus of Nazareth and his
Holy Spirit, and God sends theSpirit, and sometimes a
miraculous intervention happensand sometimes it doesn't.
And here's what happens withthe two pathways.
This one is believing in Godbeing guided by faith.

(20:28):
This one is experimenting withwhat's already in the creation,
and every now and then theyoverlap like this, and then
sometimes they separate out, andthen sometimes there's no
answer and the faith movesforward and the suffering
continues, and sometimes thesuffering is alleviated by that
miraculous intervention, andsometimes there's a combo.
Sometimes there is oh, I havereceived a therapy that is

(20:49):
giving me miraculous improvement.
This is amazing.
And then suddenly there's aninstant heal, or maybe there is
a pathway to a remedy, and itworks for six months and the
next thing you know, you hadsignificant improvement.
And there comes a moment whereyour faith shifts and you get
the instant heal, and sometimesyou walked in the power of a
miracle.
And then the end of your dayshas come and your assignment on

(21:11):
earth is completed and God takesyou.
And no, everybody's surprisedby it.
But regardless of this, allfive of those are in the Bible.
No, all five of them.
I wanted to unpack that in thebook so that people don't get
stuck in one and don't allow theother.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Right, what does the ministry of Jesus show us about
praying for healing in moderntimes?

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Oh, okay, well, sure, listen in the book.
So listen, there's a school outthere that says that God
stopped doing that with thedeath of the apostles.
And so I searched the NewTestament for a biblical basis
in the New Testament for theprayer for healing.
And here's what I discovered.
Now this is an important.
It's going to take me a bit ofteaching to get there, but I
want to unpack the thinking outthere.

(21:59):
So we know this.
In the book of Galatians, paulthe apostle calls James the
Lord's brother an apostle.
He actually says it in chapterone.
I visited Peter and I didn'tsee any apostles except James
the Lord's brother.
So that's real clear.
And the book of James waswritten by Jesus' half-brother

(22:21):
James.
He was the leader of theJerusalem church, he was Jewish
to the toenails and he was theconservative guy who said we've
got to figure out thiscircumcision debate.
He was the guy who wanted to dothat.
So we know James in his earlydays was antagonistic to Jesus.
In fact, in Mark 3, fourbrothers of Jesus plus some

(22:44):
family members, probably sisters, show up to take him out.
They don't want him there, theythink he's going to get killed
or something.
And then in the sixth chapter,all of his family shows up in
the synagogue and he can't dothe miraculous acts of power
that he wants to because of thecollective unbelief of his own

(23:04):
family.
All right now, just put this inperspective.
Acts of power that he wants tobecause of the collective
unbelief of his own family Allright now, just put this in
perspective.
This means thatpost-resurrection we have a
picture of Mary and all of thefour boys there's four boys
named in Mark praying with Maryto Jesus post-.
Resurrection.
Here's what happened Betweenthe cross and the resurrection

(23:24):
the family said yes to Jesusbeing Messiah and started to
pray to him, and so the original12 apostles did not include
James but as an enemy of Jesusuntil post-resurrection.
Then we find out from theapostle Paul he's an apostle.
That means he's a mega leader,he's a big guy, he's one of the

(23:47):
guys who writes scripture and hewrote the book of James.
Now that means that someone whowas not one of the 12, who knew
Jesus intimately, is trainingother people in his church,
called elders, in somethingcalled prayer for healing, with
the expectation that the prayerof faith will save the one who
is sick.
This means the New Testamentsays that we are to practice

(24:11):
prayer for healing, even ifwe're not among the original
apostolic band.
So I wanted to unpack thatbefore I went any further.
The oldest apostle to remainalive and die a natural death
was John, the son of Zebedee,and at the end of his days he
wrote 1 to 3 John and he wroteRevelation.
In 1 to 3 John the apostle saysthis who says he abides in him

(24:35):
must walk as he.
And we know he wrote the Gospelof John toward the end of his
days Most scholars think it's 80, 80 to 90, somewhere in that
range and that John died on theIsle of Patmos.
And in the middle of thatGospel you have a saying of
Jesus about greater works willyou do than the ones that I do.

(24:56):
It's found in John 14.
And it's very, very, very clearcontextually from the material
that it does not refer toincreased capacity for
evangelistic rallies.
It doesn't refer to scientificadvancement.
It refers to the practice ofmiraculous signs and wonders
that are assigned to people asGod wants them to receive.

(25:16):
So I think the New Testament,through John and through James,
and I also think through Paul,makes very clear those gifts of
the Spirit are not to berestricted to the first
generation and the apostle group.
Okay, so let's make that,because James who is not part of
the 12, is training anothergeneration that's following him
to do it so they can take it forit and it gets recorded in

(25:38):
Scripture.
So I personally believe that ifyou're sick, you should do
exactly as the New Testamentsays you should call the elders
of the church and in context, itwasn't a group of people who
were gathered to satisfy the IRS, it's called Revenue Canada up
here.
I'm a Canadian, you have theIRS down there and what we do to

(26:01):
get charitable status in ourtwo countries is to create a
framework that satisfies duediligence for IRS or Revenue
Canada, that we're practicingwhat we preach In the early
church.
Of course they weren't lookingfor a tax break.
They would make someone who wasspiritually mature the leader
of a house group.
They would call that person anelder, because there were no

(26:22):
church buildings and anybody whowas a teacher inside a house
group, that's the person thatwas the elder.
So you'd gather these and thenyou would ask for confession of
sin.
It's a very interesting thing.
The confession of sin is linkedto the healing and then they
would wait on the lord and pray.

(26:43):
Now I'm going to name a petpeeve that I address in the book
.
I have been I don't know to howmany prayer meetings.
I can't begin to tell you thenumber of prayer meetings I've
been to.
I've been a pastor since 1983.
Now, if there's one of those aweek, my heavens, you know how
many that is.
But apart from that, there weremany more than one a week.
So, but every prayer meeting Igo to there'd be a stalwart

(27:05):
who'd name all the people whowere sick and they'd name all
the needs of the church.
And Susie needs a job, and youknow, bill just got laid off and
Susie's going through a divorce, fred's got cancer, they, they
named these things and thenthey'd say let's pray for them.
And we would.
You know we'd pray for them.
But you know, then we'd go backthe next week and name the same

(27:26):
people and then they would praythis.
They would say oh Lord, fred'sgot cancer, Heal him if it be
your.
And I prayed that prayer.
I wrote a book on Lord's Prayer.
It's sitting right here, thisone here, anyway, of course, one
of the phrases is your will bedone on earth as it is in heaven
.
And so I decided to do a wordstudy on the word will in the

(27:53):
New Testament.
Do you know?
Not a single person prays thatway.
Nobody prays like that in theBible.
There's one.
The only parallel that comesclose is the story of Jesus in
the Garden of Gethsemane, wherehe already knows what the will
is, because Elijah and Moses hadtold him he's going to get
killed, it's going to be bad,they're going to whip you,

(28:14):
they're going to beat you,they're going to mock you,
they're going to put you on across.
He knows the whole story and hedoesn't say oh God, you know,
if it be your will.
He says I know the will, Idon't like this.
Will, please, if it's possible,change the outcome so that we

(28:39):
can accomplish this purpose adifferent way.
Nevertheless, not my will, butyours be done.
That's very different than whatI see in most prayer meetings
where it says well, we don'tknow if it's going to get better
or not, but, oh God, to giveyou an escape clause, we'll say,
if it be your will, no, no, no.
So there's nothing else in theBible that comes close.
There's one reference in 1 Johnwhere it says this brothers and

(29:03):
sisters, we have confidencebefore God, knowing that when we
pray according to his will.
He hears us.
Now that could be interpretedthe way that we do it in modern
prayer meetings, but it's notJohn's point.
The apostle is saying I knowwhat God wants us to pray and we
are going to follow suit bypraying what is in harmony with
his purposes, so we can see ananswer.

(29:24):
It's a very different way ofpraying if it be your will.
So when you do the James 5 thing, you pray something called the
prayer thing, and here's how Ido it.
I'm happy to be corrected orimproved or whatever.
If you tell me a better way ofdoing it, I will put it in the
next book.
I'll quote you, I'll put yourname in there.

(29:46):
But anyway, what I do when I'mpraying for the sick is we
gather around the afflictedperson and if it's a female, you
don't touch her unless shegives you permission, because
there's abuse victims out there.
Actually, you shouldn't even doit with males anymore either,
just because the culture is justso litigious that everybody
wants to sue you, or they'rewounded because they've been

(30:07):
taken advantage of or abused orsomething, and a touch will hurt
them.
You know.
Anyway, the bottom line is youask and after you ask, if they
say yes, you put your hand on alocation that is what I call
safe their shoulders, theirelbow and their head, or
something like this and then youwait.
And then, after you ask themwhat the issue is, and one of

(30:28):
them will say well, you know, Ijust got this diagnosis.
I'm in a terrible way.
I got three kids, my husbandcan't work, I am trying to raise
these kids and now I have thisterrible diagnosis.
Of course, your heart goes outto them.
When you hear the story, youask permission if you can touch
them.
You do.
And then here's how I start.
I will say and I'll just usethe name out of the Jane here

(30:56):
has said she's suffering fromthis.
We stand with her.
Jesus, how do you want us topray?
And then you wait, and as youwait, there are signals that the
Lord wants to accomplishsomething.
That happens not just in oneperson, but in all the
intercessors who are prayingwith you.
The peace rises, fiery peace,fire presence rises inside of

(31:18):
you, and if that testimony ofthe Spirit occurs, you will feel
something inside of you.
While this is occurring Now,some people have different
experiences than others, so letme be clear here.
There are people who simply prayout of obedience.
They feel nothing and somethinghappens.
But with me I notice anincrease of three identity
markers that are named by theApostle Paul.

(31:39):
That's a sweet walk with Jesus.
Peace.
This is the internal serenityJoy, which is internal
celebration despite externalcircumstance, which is a
conviction that something goodis about to happen.
Focus, where suddenly all youcan see is the person and faith

(32:00):
to believe that something'sgonna take place.
And with me, sometimes I feelfiery heat.
There's one lady whose body juststarts to.
I was just in Cambodia prayingwith people and this.
There's a couple that'sdirecting the field house there.
And the lady.
She gets filled up withcompassion Whenever something is
about to happen.
She just starts to feelmarvelous compassion for the

(32:23):
person she's praying for.
But any one of those signalswill do, and I suspect there's
more in the New Testament.
But when I notice those signalsstart to rise, ideas start
popping into my head as I'mpraying and I'll say you know,
as I'm praying for you, I seethis little girl.
Something bad happened when shewas five.
Does that resonate with you?

(32:45):
Is this something that could betrue in your life?
And if the recipient of theprayer responds positively, she
begins to weep, or she asks aquestion.
Or how did you know you askthese kinds of questions?
Then you proceed because that'sGod praying through you, that's
the Holy Spirit praying throughyou to accomplish something.

(33:07):
I remember once I was in anelder meeting and there was a
guy there who had been a workeroverseas and he'd come back to
Canada and he got a secular jobbecause his wife wanted to work
for a ministry and so she wasnow doing the ministry and he
was working secular, we'd paybills, kind of thing.
He came out of the board and wewere praying for each elder at
this retreat and I rememberlooking at him and he said you

(33:31):
know, there's a young man whoworks in my company and he's had
no dad, he's had no ability to,he doesn't know what he
believes.
And I looked at him andsuddenly I just felt
overwhelming compassion for thisyoung man.
And I looked at the guy.
His name was Jerry.
I said, jerry, when you lockeyes with him you feel like a
father to a son.
Is that correct?

(33:52):
He said how did you know?
I said I didn't.
I said you keep bumping intohim when you're not planning to
bump into him in the community,outside after you've done your
work.
He said how did you know?
I said I didn't know.
And I said you have been a son.
I'm going to pray this in allconfidence.
I believe the Lord has put youbeside him so you can be like a

(34:12):
father to his son and teach himthat the emptiness in his spirit
around relationship can besatisfied with them.
He began to cry like a baby aswe were talking about a
55-year-old man, right, a20-year-old kid, right.
It was just starting out inlife and we wound up praying for
that young lad to have theemotional deficits in his life

(34:36):
from his broken parents'marriage and all the trouble he
went through, satisfied byengagement with Jerry's family.
That's exactly what happened.
Now that's emotional healing,but it was emotional healing
dealing with the healthy one,being a role model and a friend.
So you listen to the Spiritrather than have a one-way chat

(34:58):
where you demand of God the wayI would describe it.
I'm going to give you thebiblical basis for this now,
because I think people need toknow that it's biblical right.
So the gospel is called achiastic document.
It means that there's big truthat the beginning and that's
Jesus is God.
There's big truth at the endJesus is raised.
Those are the two big thingsthat go on inside the gospel of

(35:21):
John.
And if you clap your hands andrub your hands together in the
middle it says this my sheephear my voice.
That's the dynamic center ofthe book, right there.
The other thing that the booksays is that he's not just the
spirit baptizer, he's the lamb.
Okay, so behold the lamb.

(35:41):
That means we're not sheepiesalone, we're sheepies being led
by the lamb.
Got that Now?
Jesus, as the lamb, all the waythrough John's gospel, always
hears the voice before he does amiraculous act of power.
In fact, I think it's like eightor nine times in John's gospel
where he says I can do nothingon my own initiative.

(36:04):
First time, you see, that is inJohn chapter five.
It's around verse 18, 19,somewhere in there where he's
just cured the man at the poolof Bethesda who's been 38 years
sick and he's carrying hispallet on the Sunday you know,
on Sabbath day, it'll beSaturday in Jewish culture,
anyway the Pharisees say howcome you're doing that?
He said I don't know some guy.
Some guy told me to pick up my.
He didn't even know who Jesuswas.

(36:25):
So Jesus finds him and saysthat was me.
The Pharisees find Jesus andsay how come you told him to
pick up his pallet on theSabbath?
Jesus then says this amazingthing I can do nothing on my own
initiative.
As I see, I obey, as I hear Iobey.
He says this and you follow itthrough John's gospel eight or

(36:48):
nine times.
It refers to his teachingministry.
It refers to his resurrection,judgment stuff.
It refers to his cross.
It refers to the incarnation.
It refers to everything Jesusdid.
Now he's the lamb who hears thevoice to accomplish the
miraculous signs and wonders bylistening to the divine
initiative.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is raised.

(37:08):
My sheep hear my voice.
Behold the lamb who hears thevoice and he says the works that
I do, you shall do, and greaterworks shall you do.
But the model is the same we'reto cultivate hearing the voice
of the shepherd in the same wayas Jesus the Lamb heard the

(37:28):
voice of God, the Father.
That's the theological basisfor this whole thing.
Now you know this.
John wrote that at the end ofhis life.
He was on the island of Patmoswhen he wrote the Gospel of John
.
He wrote Revelation and hewrote 1 to 3 John there.
These books were done at theend of his days, as the final
voice of the original generationof the twelve apostles, and his

(37:51):
word was not the gifts haveceased, his word was to record
Jesus saying we're going to dothem right on through to the
close of time laid out in James5.
Now I'll tell you what we do.
There's a conviction that ifyou pray once, you're supposed
to stop, but actually Jamesdoesn't say that.
James says the example isElijah praying for rain.

(38:15):
Okay, and so if you read James5, it moves on down and it gets
to this part where it says heprayed that it would not rain
and the rain ceased, and then heprayed again and it started to
rain.
Well, that sounds really easy.
That's not what happened in thelife of Elijah.
You've got to go back to 1 Kings, 17, 18, 19 to get the whole
story.
He rebukes the king, he hidesby a ravine for six months, he

(38:37):
stays in Zarephath and lives bymiracle with the widow of
Zarephath, raises a little boyfrom the dead.
Then he comes back and heconfronts the king.
Then he calls down fire fromthe sky.
Then he kills the priests ofBaal and then he prays more, and
I believe it was a three and ahalf year prayer because he
doesn't feast.
He doesn't eat except the angelfood.
He lets Ahab feast, he stays inthe fast, eating nothing except

(39:04):
the food the angels provide.
While he prays and here's thepoint he doesn't pray once, he
doesn't pray twice, he doesn'tpray three times or four times
or five times or six times, heprays seven times, in complete
confidence that God had alreadyset the thing into motion.

(39:27):
He was commanded.
It said actually beginning of18, it says go and confront Ahab
and I will send rain upon theland, which also sounds really
easy.
Well, he goes and he confrontsAhab.
There's a whole lot more to thestory.
And then when Ahab admits thatthe God of Israel is the real
God and everybody's saying whatdo we do now?

(39:47):
He says go up and eat and drink.
I hear the sound of a heavyroaring.
He actually says that.
The point is he was commandedby the Lord, in whatever fashion
God told him.
I'm not sure how it happenedthat he was supposed to do this.
And when he's in the momentwhere fire has come down from

(40:09):
the sky and the king hasrepented, at least temporarily,
and the people are feasting, hehears a sound internally about
how he is to pray.
Then he takes his servant, goesup on the mountain and he prays
, not once.
He cooperates with the divineinitiative in praying for the
rain, and that's the story thatJames uses when he tells the

(40:35):
elders to pray for the peoplewho are sick.
In other words, if you don'tsee results in the first prayer,
don't stop.
You can wait before the Lord.
And what he does is he waits,and then he prays a second time
and sends a servant to check,and then he prays a third time
and sends a servant to check,probably 20 minutes each time.
Seven times 20 is 140 minutes,that's two them.

(40:56):
Probably 20 minutes each time.
Seven times 20 is 140 minutes,that's two hours and 20 minutes
before the lord.
You know, I'm just making anassumption.
Maybe it was shorter, maybe itwas longer, I don't know.
The point is that that that isthat's the paradigm that james
uses to describe the prayer forhealing process that the elders
are to engage in Perseverantpleading and listening, rooted

(41:20):
in confession, inside theframework of the community,
using the example of Elijah'srepetitious prayer to pray the
rain in.
That's the way we're supposedto pray for healing.
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah, I know you've had yourown medical issues, and so have
I.
I mean, I've got a handicappeddaughter.
I do.
So I'll just show you something.

(41:40):
This is my healing prayer bookand this is published by
Whitaker House, so you can getit anywhere books are sold.
But if you look at the veryback of the book, you will see a
picture of my daughter in awheelchair and she's walking our
dog.
Okay, and that's what she woulddo to get herself out of the
house.
So she has received remarkableimprovement, but she's not been

(42:04):
healed.
Now, inside the same book, Itell the story of my wife's
miraculous cure for musculardystrophy, and it was a process
followed by an instant cure.
So we had prayed all throughthe years and, of course, we
gave up After 20 years ofgetting no you kind of figure,
maybe it's no.
So we gave up.
But here's what happened.

(42:25):
Both she and I made a decision.
We would seek the healer, notthe healing.
So with that decision in place,we said okay, jesus, our
strength is diminishing.
We have less capacity now thanwe did two or three or four or
five years ago.
It's going to get worse as weget older.
Would you please show us how wecan serve you with our

(42:48):
diminishing capacity so thatwhen we're done we can look you
in the eye and say we did whatyou asked us and we prayed that
and we meant it in all sincerity.
The irony was she and I wouldpray for other people.
They'd get the instant heal andshe's declining.
It's a really crazy kind ofthing.
I entered into a partnershipwith two American churches, one
from New York State, one fromAtlanta, georgia, to help North

(43:12):
Uganda rebuild, and Uganda hadbeen ravaged by the madness of
Yigit Yedmin and Joseph Kony,these terrible, terrible guys,
and I met people whose noseswere cut off, whose tongues were
cut out, one eye gouged out,hands were gone Terrible stuff
that Kony in particular had doneand they wanted.

(43:33):
Yigit Yedmin had been gone.
Now there was a new president.
His wife's a born-again girl.
He wanted to establish law andorder.
He's still a bit of a dictator,but he's a benevolent one.
He's kinder, you know.
Anyway, they're rebuilding andchurches had no education.
Now the area I went to 20 years,no school.
20 years, no dental care.
20 years, no medical doctor.

(43:55):
20 years, no education.
I mean we're talking about asociety with nothing.
If you could read, you'd becomethe leader.
That's all there was to it.
And so, whatever the issue was,whether it was the town mayor,
whether it was the leader ofsome society, whether it was the
church pastor, whatever youcould read, you'd become the
leader.
So they were starting to learnto read and that church in

(44:18):
Atlanta organized for the otherAmerican guy and myself to come
and help them and I set up aprocess of three one-week
intensives and actually I wrotethe book on the Lord's Prayer to
give to them.
That's what I did.
I wanted them to have atraining tool.
So when it was done, the bishopwho organized that wanted to

(44:38):
come to my church and he flew inand we paid for his airfare,
because he's from Uganda, he'spoor.
I thought I was going to getfired.
He was so tribal leader, ugandan, you know what I'm saying
Barking orders, telling peoplewhat to do.
He was the head of the tribe,kind of thing you know.

(45:00):
And the culture was verydifferent.
It was a tribal society.
So what the leader of the tribesaid, everybody else said yes
to, even if they didn't want to.
Virtue is an individualisticculture, like a Canadian or
American, where everybody justdoes what they please and you
elect your leader rather thanfollow him.
Or American, where everybodyjust does what they please and
you elect your leader ratherthan follow him.
You don't like him, you throwhim out.
Anyway, the bottom line is thisguy came into my church, he

(45:22):
meets me at the airport.
He says now, david, I don'tknow what it is, every time I
pray for your church, the Lordsays I should be really gentle.
Does that make sense to you?
I said, oh, yes, it does.
So he's in the pulpit Now.
In those days I had threeservices on the weekend,
actually five.
We had an off-site campus andwe had a Filipino church plant

(45:43):
that met and spoken to Calong,right.
Anyway, we had these fiveservices, but the main speaker
would speak at three and then wehad alternating times with the
other two, the country campus.
So anyway, we had these threeservices.
They were all combined togetherfor this.
The Saturday night was thesmallest.
We had about 200 people there.
The Sunday morning was about300 at 9 o'clock.

(46:04):
The Saturday night was I wantto sleep in and I'm going to
work, I'm going to take the dayoff.
The Sunday morning was what Icall classical evangelical
conservative.
Give me three hymns, threepoints in a poem and I'm out of
here, right.
And then the 11 o'clockers werethe ones who were more
charismatically inclined, wantedto dance in church and wave
their arms and that kind.
So we had all three of thosekinds of congregations.

(46:25):
Anyway, it comes to the firstone, saturday night, and he
tells deliverance from death warstories.
Everybody's excited, they alltext their friends stories.
Everybody's excited, they alltext their friends.
And they walk up to me and thebishop and they said listen,
tell more stories tomorrow.
We want more stories tomorrow.
We're coming tomorrow morning.
So they show up at nine o'clockbecause they're fascinated by

(46:46):
this guy who tells moredeliverance from death, war
stories.
And as he's telling thesestories, of course the numbers
keep swelling.
And now the nine o'clockerswant to go to the 11th, and the
11th was our full service, right.
So we have this overpackedcapacity thing.
We got about 650 people in asanctuary that seats 450 people
lined up along the walls and upand down the stairs and, oh man,

(47:09):
it was just people everywhere.
And we had spill out into thehallway with broadcasting, into
the back center, that kind ofthing.
And he and we had spill outinto the hallway with
broadcasting, into the backcenter, that kind of thing, and
I'm sitting on the platformlooking at my wife who's sitting
two rows down.
Now let me just give you thebackground For 20 years she's
been unable to raise her handsabove her shoulders because of
the muscular dystrophy it'scalled FSH muscular dystrophy.

(47:31):
In fact it's become famous nowbecause your Lululemon founder
has it and he's made a bigdonation two years ago to find a
cure for FSH.
So when she climbed a stair shewould have to take hold of her
leg and lift it to the stair,grab the banister with two hands
and pull herself up to the nextlevel, balance the other leg
and then repeat the procedureuntil she'd get up the stairs.

(47:53):
So we were about to look for aone-floor home because there had
no cure.
And there was no cure.
There was only treatments toalleviate pain or make walking
possible or something, and theprayer had not had its effect.
She had not been healed.
And so we made this decision tolook around for a one-floor

(48:16):
home.
And this bishop was standing inthe pulpit and I'm next to him
and he's telling deliverancefrom death war stories, and
suddenly stops and looks at meand he said David what is MA?
I thought MA, master of Arts, Idon't know.

(48:38):
Then he says no, no, no, no, Igot something wrong.
I got something wrong.
And he stops in the middle ofthis service with all these
people hanging on every wordhe's saying, puts his head in
the pulpit and he prays for likea minute or half I'm sure it
wasn't that long, it just feltlike it was every time.
It just felt like it wasforever.

(48:59):
Then he looks up and he looksat me and then he looks out of
the congregation.
He says it's a wasting muscledisease.
It starts in your head.
It causes your face to sag,your shoulder blades go out of
position, your spine sometimesgets a curve.
Chronic pain starts between 16and 20.
And if you damage a muscle youlose it forever.

(49:22):
He gave a perfect medicaldescription of the trajectory of
FSH muscular dystrophy which mywife was suffering from and all
of our.
We'd been in that church fiveyears.
At that point Everybody in thecongregation knew the issue.
Many of the ladies in thechurch had helped my wife even
clean the house, because shecouldn't move the couch to

(49:44):
vacuum underneath it, that kindof thing.
She couldn't do the stairs.
They'd come over and volunteer,and so they were sitting with
her and as this guy is talking,all of us are becoming aware
he's describing her medicalcondition.
I watch her and then he saysthis Whoever has this Jesus has

(50:04):
air over her head for the firsttime in more than 20 years, and
all of our friends, all of themknew that this was absolutely
beyond the realm of the ordinary.
Now we had invited people fromVancouver to come to our
Edmonton church to hear this guypreach, because they were
thinking about joining us in thenext mission endeavor, because

(50:28):
I taught, others did evangelismand others did build projects,
and so this is an evangelisticcouple.
They were trying to figure outif they should come and they're
staying in our projects, and sothis is an evangelistic couple.
They were trying to figure outif they should come and they're
staying in our home.
And so the plan was, afterchurch was done, that I would go
home and take down the heavypots and pans that were on top
shelves that we never usedunless we had company.
And we got home, she climbs thestairs all by herself, she

(50:51):
pushes me out of the way, shegets a stool, she stands on the
stool, she reaches the heavypots and pans and brings them
down herself and everybody is inawe because all of us in the
room knew what had just happened.
Now, a week later, one weeklater, my daughter starts to
push her brother's buttons.

(51:11):
She decides to be mean andnasty to her brother at the
breakfast table.
She's never liked this.
She got into a snit for somereason and she knew all the weak
points and she was telling himthis and telling him that he was
gradually losing his ability tokeep his cool.
He was doing his best to be aChristian lad.
I was trying to figure out howto discipline my daughter and
suddenly my wife lost it and shesaid that's enough.

(51:34):
And suddenly my wife lost itand she said that's enough and
took her by the hand and ran herup the stairs and got her into
the bedroom and knelt downbeside the bed and made her pick
up all her toys and make herbed, then ran her into the
bathroom to brush her teeth andran her down the stairs, then
put her in the van and drove herto school.
And we were so mad we didn'tthaw out from the rage until

(51:55):
noon and realized my wife hadrun up and down those stairs.
It's a miracle.
And now about listen, there's 20years of no answer.
You got to know this.
I mean, we're talking about 20years before that where there
was no answer, where we lived inthat thing called holy mystery,

(52:16):
suffering without purpose.
Now, in our case, the answercame, and what I want to say is
there are seasons in lives andthere are seasons where the Lord
moves in mighty power and thereare seasons where he's silent.
Moves in mighty power and thereare seasons where he's silent.

(52:38):
There are seasons where hegives you a partial answer or
guides you, and there areseasons where you sit based on
previous revelations.
So, elijah, he's sent to thewidow of Zarephath's house.
Right, his friends are beingkilled.
They're being killed.
Right, obadiah is saving someof them by hiding 50 in caves at
a time, but he has nocommunication, he has no ability
to talk with them.

(52:59):
He's commanded by the Lord tosit in some upper apartment and
there's no chores, there's nocrop.
He can sweep the floor.
That's all he can do.
He can play with the kids.
He sits there in the room.
All he can do is pray and visit.
That's it.
And for whatever reason, itwasn't until in the middle of

(53:19):
the third year that God said oh,by the way, I'm going to do it
now.
In the middle of the third year, god says to Elijah go and
confront Ahab and I will sendrain upon the earth.
Now, what was it like for thosethree years?
I think he was bored out of hisever-loving tree or he was
playing with the kid or talkingto the lady.

(53:41):
It's very clear they keptseparate quarters.
He was in the upper story, shewas downstairs with the boy.
The boy dies.
In the ruin story he raises theboy from the dead.
It's the first resurrectionstory in the Bible.
But apart from that one moment,we don't know what he did with

(54:03):
those three years, apart fromseek God.
So healing prayer is not one,two, three.
Now you're free.
Healing prayer is engagementwith the power of God.
It's revealed to us throughJesus of Nazareth, who sends
gifts of the spirit and actsaccording to his purposes, and
our goal is to discern the voiceand hear what it is that Jesus
is saying while we quote that bypraying, the very thing God

(54:23):
sends to us.
So the way I say it in the bookis we pray into existence what
God wants done.
Now, the second half is moreimportant than the first.
We pray as a human agentcooperating with the divine
presence, and God always usesthe human agent, always.
That's why God became a humanin Jesus.

(54:44):
God always uses the human agent, so he sends the spirit on us
as participants in the secondand last Adam, whose name is
Jesus, and then, as he prays,through his sinless perfection
being joined to us and coveringus, the power of the Spirit
flows through us to accomplishwhat God has.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
I have one other question.
You know, sometimes, you know,people say well, you know, like,
you know in the Bible it talksabout the.
You know the world's plan.
But then you know in the Bibleit talks about the.
You know the world's prayer andyou know we should pray this
way and some people will prayand they'll pray, you know, and
use the words in Jesus' nameafter you know every prayer.

(55:29):
Do you know?
Do we need to use those wordsin order for that prayer to be?

Speaker 2 (55:36):
answered.
The name is his personality,his presence, and so to be in
the name is to be inside theframework of Jesus himself.
It's to participate in hisspirit.
It's a reminder to us.
I will tell you that when yousay the name, power is released.

(55:57):
But if you're doing it like ahow do I say?
There's enough profanity outthere, where I hear it as a
swear word.
It has no meaning whatsoever,it's empty of value.
The illustration of this is inthe book of Acts, the story of
the seven sons of Siva.
I think it's chapter 19.
I'm doing this from memory.
I'm happy to correct it if it'swrong, but these seven Jewish

(56:21):
guys are becoming aware that thename Jesus that Paul is
preaching is letting Paul domiraculous acts of power and to
cast out demons.
You can find the story in theActs.
Anyway, there's seven sons ofone priest whose name is Siva.
It's really kind of fun.
Anyway, these seven guys show upwith a man who's infested with
an unclean power and they say wecommand you to leave in the

(56:46):
name of Jesus, who Paul preaches.
They actually say that.
And the demon says oh, I knowJesus, I know about Paul, who
are you?
Then he beats up seven guys.
It actually says he strips theclothes off seven men.
Now if I had just beat them upand got them out of the room,

(57:06):
that would have been enough forme.
The demon is not satisfieduntil he completely humiliates
all seven men, beats all of themdown and knocks them to the
ground.
And then it says this when thisnews came out, the name of Jesus
was glorified.
He wasn't glorified becauseseven men got beat up.
He was glorified because hisname is not a charm, it is not

(57:30):
an epitaph to be repeated.
It is something that is to beuttered when you are in the
presence of Jesus of Nazareth bythe power of his spirit.
And so the name is actually theconcentration of Jesus'
presence and all of his powerinside the believer.
And when they name that outloud, it is to be because the

(57:53):
Holy Spirit inside of you isalready bearing witness to that.
So name and presence are verynearly identical.
Name and power are very nearlyidentical.
You have Psalms that put nameand power and name and presence
side by side.
In fact, famous Psalm, cast menot away from your presence,
take not your Holy Spirit fromme makes it clear that presence

(58:14):
and Holy Spirit are identical.
And the same thing happens within what name or in what power
are you doing?
This, says the Sanhedrin toPeter.
In what name and what power?
So name and power, name andpresence, holy Spirit and power,
holy Spirit and nameintertwined.

(58:35):
So to use the name.
It's not to be done cheaply.
It's to be done in the contextof some kind of ministry, where
someone needs the presence ofgod to enter in and calm their
troubled emotions, cast out theunclean spirit, bring a healing
presence to the individual.
It's not a magic charm.
Does that answer the question?
It?

Speaker 1 (58:53):
does, and I guess what I was getting at.
Obviously we should use thename Jesus in our prayers, but
using the term I guess is theword to use in Jesus' name
doesn't negate the prayers.
I guess is what I was gettingat.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
No, it doesn't negate it.
All it is is a reminder't.
It doesn't.
All it is is a reminder thatyou're in him.
And I will say this when I saythe name of Jesus to someone
who's experienced demonization,the unclean spirit cringes.
It does not like the name ofJesus.
In fact, I just did cast out ademon from a lake in Cambodia I
was just overseas and so when Iuse the name of Jesus, the

(59:37):
unclean spirit trembles.
But it only works if you're inhis presence at the same time as
you're uttering that word.
And so the word of Jesus orit's Yesu in Greek, it's Yeshua
in Hebrew, and there's otherpronunciations across the planet
Jesus in Spanish culture.
Different cultures pronounce itdifferently.

(59:58):
It's not the exactpronunciation that does the job.
It's the godly walk of theperson who submitted to that
Jesus, who then uses the name asa function of power, and that's
how that works.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Yeah Well, dr David David, thank you so much for
coming on this show today.
We greatly appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Thank you, it's been a delight to be here.
Can I tell people where to getmy books, absolutely okay.
Well, this one, the healingprayer book, is available
anywhere books are sold.
You can go to Walmart and orderthis thing, you can get it on
Amazon or you can go tochristiansbookcom.
Anytime you listen, there is afree gift of two chapters of the

(01:00:44):
audio book from this book, andso if you give me your email
information, I will give youchapter one, which includes my
testimony and the testimony ofMaxie Dunham, the co-writer of
the book, includes my testimonyand the testimony of Maxie
Dunham, the co-writer of thebook, and then an applicational
chapter, chapter eight, from thebook, where we teach people
about how to actually go aboutdoing prayer for healing, and
you do that simply by giving meyour contact information.
So I'd be delighted if some ofyour listeners would do that and

(01:01:07):
avail themselves of thisparticular gift, because lots of
times people can't sit down toread, but they can listen to an
audio book, and this one's on anaudio book.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Will you say encouraging words and maybe even
say a prayer for us as we getready to end here?

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I would love to do that.
Heavenly Father, I want tothank you for Dorsey and his
commitment to teaching andunderstanding and sharing the
gospel of our Lord, jesus Christ.
He's got thousands of listenersand right now I'm aware that
somebody out there isn't feelingwell.
Somebody out there is in themiddle of a time of terrible
suffering, somebody's inemotional anguish, somebody's
gone through some terrible thingand now they have cancer or

(01:01:46):
they're dealing with some sortof a blood disease.
Whatever the issue of the dayhappens to be, I know this about
you your desire for our good isgreater than our desire for it.
Would you send your goodness andyour grace and your healing
virtue and your power ontoanyone who's listening to this
podcast to bring them to any oneof the five pathways we've

(01:02:10):
talked about?
We've talked about the instantheal.
We've talked about naturalhealing.
We've talked about a pathway.
We've talked about sufferingwithout purpose and we've talked
about the instant heal.
We've talked about naturalhealing.
We've talked about a pathway.
We've talked about sufferingwithout purpose and we've talked
about the crossing over ontoyour side, jesus.
All five of these are yours.
Would you use it in a way thatmay everyone who's listening
more like Jesus, grant that inyour mighty and your precious

(01:02:34):
name.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Amen, amen.
Grant that in your mighty andyour precious name, amen you
know.
Thank you again for coming onmy joy.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
I'd be delighted to come back.
You want me to talk aboutlistening to the voice or
dealing with the powers ofdarkness?
I've got a new book coming outon Mark's gospel shortly okay,
sounds good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on
this show today.
We greatly appreciate havingyou.
Please go and check out DrDavid's website and his books,
and check out my previousepisodes as well.
And until next time, god bless.
Bye-bye.