September 4, 2019 • 41 mins
Change happens to everyone every day. Taking time to think about it makes you a little less reactive and a lot more proactive. When you are proactive to change, you can manage it better and understand it more clearly than if you just let it happen to you. Owen Vibert, Dovico Product Manager and Kayla Breelove Carter, owner of Breelove Counselling discuss change in businesses and personal lives, and the forces behind how we deal with it.
References:
- Facebook live with Kayla and Owen
-"Kotter's 8-Step Change Model - Implementing Change Powerfully and Successfully"
Breelove Counselling https://www.breelove.ca/
Dovico Software Inc - https://www.dovico.com/
**Please Like, Share & Follow for upcoming episodes!**
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Owen (00:03):
Today, I'd like to welcome Kayla Breedlove Carter here to
our Dovico podcast.
She has, she's licensedtherapist.
Uh, she has, her own counselingservice called Breedlove
counseling.
And today we are going toexplore the expansive topic of
change and transitions.
And that's going to coincidewith a theme here that we've
(00:25):
been running with for the monthof August.
The month of August tends to bea transition month of people
moving from vacation mode backinto work, into a sense of
normalcy, kids back, to schoolfrom the, uh, the
unstructuredness of, of summer.
So, um, it is a good topic toexplore and, you know, we have
change in almost every facet ofour lives.
(00:48):
It's, something that, thathappens to everybody, um,
regularly.
And you know, if you don't takethe time to sit back and think
about it, um, then you become,maybe someone who is reactive to
the change as opposed to, youknow, anticipating or, or, or
looking for the ways that yourlife, uh, can be a little bit
(01:15):
different if you're, if you'remanaging that change.
Uh, so you know, a little bitfrom a proactive, to reactive.
So, uh, we're, we're going toexplore some of these topics
here.
So, Kayla, welcome and thank youfor, for sharing, uh, some of
the things that, uh, that, that,you know, we've, we've just
spent a 20, 25 minutes here afew moments ago, uh, discussing
(01:35):
this with, with the group, uh,here at Dovico.
So looking forward to getting alittle bit more in depth.
I know you've got a lot more toshare.
[inaudible] really lookingforward to this conversation.
So again, thank you.
So, um, change, uh, you know,again, uh, it happens to us
every day.
There's things that go on bothinternally and externally.
(01:56):
Um, so change is just part ofour lives.
Uh, you know, eve mentioned thisin one of his Monday morning
lives.
Uh, you know, it might be alittle extreme, but it's true
yet you change or you die.
Uh, you know, it's, it's one orthe other.
Um, and, you know, I guess maybejust taking it from a, you know,
how our mind processes it so wecan get a little bit of science
behind this.
(02:17):
You know, I guess how does ourmind respond to change?
He, you know, things happen and,and we take it in, maybe you can
talk about how our brain works.
Kayla (02:25):
Absolutely.
So in terms of our brain, if wethink about on a neurobiological
level, uh, we have what iscalled a prefrontal cortex.
So this, uh, piece of the brain,which is that the very front is
where information is taken in.
Uh, so whether it be by what yousee, what you hear, what you
taste, what you smell, whatyou've touch.
(02:46):
Uh, it's really that aspectwhere it takes all of the world
in.
O ne thing to, to sort of bemindful about is that the brain
doesn't differentiate betweengood or bad, or whether this is
good or irrelevant information.
It just takes it all in.
So that means that really if wethink about it on, um, iceberg
(03:07):
point of view, it's really 10%of it that we're actually
intentionally aware of thatinformation coming in.
But there's an whole other 90%that we have absolutely no
collection or recollection ofwhether that actually had an
influence or not, unless weactually reflect upon it.
Uh, so once that information isin, and sort of one little
(03:30):
tidbit here, uh, that's whysleep is so important because
sleep is when our brain gets theopportunity to kind of take a
breather and make the connectionand start sorting out all of
this, all of this stuff that wetook on the full day.
So for those night owls outthere, like that means all day
plus night that the brain cantake in W hen I g o t o b ed, I
(03:51):
take it a l ot.
Okay, well there you go.
Right?
And that's why, you know, thatwe sometimes we feel that sense
of exhaustion, but that's reallyour body telling us, hey, u h, t
aking a lot of information here,can we k inda just take a break
so that we can process this andput it away?
U h, so once we get to thatpoint of where do we process
this information and how do weput things away, that's where
(04:12):
the hippocampus comes into play.
So the hippocampus is sort of inthe middle ish part of, of our
brain there.
And it, I, I usually give the,the theory of, uh, or the
metaphor of a librarian.
So Librarian, uh, has bookscoming in from people taking it
out and then they startcategorizing it and then putting
it away.
(04:32):
So that's how our hypocampusplays that role, that it, it
sort of goes through theinformation that the prefrontal
Cortex, uh, picked up throughoutthe day and starts to categorize
and ma making those connections.
Uh, so if there's been, uh, thesame experiences, well then that
information is then put intothat same category of
experience.
Owen (04:51):
So you can make sense of things, right?
You often hear that term, youknow, think outside the box.
Well there's boxes in place andthis has been a floor.
But yeah, this metaphor lines upwith that.
I mean, we've got all thisinformation and we need to think
about it, but so it's allrelational.
You need to understand, yeah, weneed to make that, that
connection relationally.
(05:12):
Uh, and the more that weexperienced the same or the
similar circumstances, thequicker that those, those
connections will be made becausethe brain's responsibility in
some ways is to make quoteunquote"our life easier".
It's better.
It's easier said than done isthat kind of intuition when we
talk intuition?
Kayla (05:31):
uh, in, in some ways, yeah.
Yeah.
So when, uh, but it goes evendeeper than that because
sometimes we don't listen to ourintuition.
So even though that our brain,yes, there's the intuition
piece, but there's also theperceived threat piece.
So let's say that thisinformation that we reocurently
see all the time is somethingthat might be unhelpful, like
(05:51):
maybe dysfunctional family ormaybe trauma, poverty, etc.
These, the brain will stillcategorize it and make those
short connections.
So as a result of that,unfortunately when we experience
something similar to it, like asense of I don't feel safe or a
sense of judgment, et Cetera, itwill, it will quickly go to that
frame of reference and then ourbody will react to it.
(06:14):
Right.
Even though that in theperception of the situation is,
I'm not in the same situation asI was then, so it plays both
sides from a positive aspect of,okay, the more that I practice
riding my bike, the easier itgets because my connection is
being made versus the more thanI'm being yelled at and said
that I'm not good enough.
The more that the next time thatI'm in any situations where it
(06:37):
is asked of me to challengemyself, that's the end result
that you're going to be.
That's the connection that'sgoing to be made, but then
there's a choice and that'swhere change comes into play.
I can choose to take thatinformation and reflect upon it.
Right.
Intentionally and withacceptance or I can choose to
react to it and most of us, wedo react to it right?
(06:58):
Until we get to a point that wejust can't take it enough.
And it kind of goes to the, thestages of change, right?
So in stages of changes, we havea six stages.
So we have the precontemplation.
So let's imagine this way.
So in pre-contemplation, thinkabout a person going down a
street and falling into amanhole.
(07:18):
I just fell in a manhole.
That's a pre-contemplation.
So you don't recognize that youhave an issue.
Uh, so you're just, okay, you'reambivalent.
Uh, oblivious to it.
I just, I fell in a manhole, sosometimes we're stuck in that
I'm a victim because I can'tbelieve this happened to me and
I'm, I'm in the hole.
Then you have the contemplationstage where the same person goes
(07:40):
down the same road and falls inthe hole again.
It's like, oh, I fell in thehole again, but still no
connection as to, you know,whether I should change my ways
or not.
But I'm recognizing there's aproblem here.
Okay.
Because, and this is, again, youcould be in that stage of, of,
of victim, right?
Then you have the preparationphase.
(08:01):
So in the preparation phase, yougo down the same road, you fall
in the hole again, or like Ifell in that hole again.
I really need to stop falling inthis hole.
So there is the preparation thatnow you've recognized that
there's a problem, but you'realso starting to think of, I
need to do something about this.
Then you go into the actionphase.
(08:22):
So the action phase is as anexample back that person going
down the street, they recognizethat the hole's there, they walk
around the hole, but they stillwalk very closely to it.
So the actionable is that we'retaking baby steps in the process
of change, but we're still sortof at threat of we're still
vulnerable that we may fall backinto that hole.
(08:43):
But for the time being, thosebaby steps are kind of okay, I
didn't fall in the hole thisway.
Then you go into, uh, themaintenance stage.
Some people say it couldpotentially, this is where the
room for relapse could happen.
So in the maintenance stages,I'm walking that same street and
I'm again walking around thathole.
So now it's like, yeah, I seethat hole, I'm not walking in
(09:05):
that hole.
I'm going around.
But then you have thetermination or the acceptance
piece and that piece is wherethat person decides, you know
what, I'm just going to take adifferent street.
So then you just completely makethat change into this is no
longer helpful for me.
So let's go back to the ideathat someone's been saying that
(09:25):
you're not good enough for allthese times and you've made that
decision of challenging them.
I say, you know what?
This is not valid anymore, soI'm discrediting this.
I'm going to challenge it.
So the more the challenge it,the more that the brain, now
that that pathway becomesirrelevant and then a new
pathways done the pathway of no,I am good enough.
And then all of a sudden itbecomes almost second nature
(09:46):
that this idea of, as soon as westart having those doubts or
we're challenged, it's like, Ican do this rather than I can't
do this because I'm not goodenough.
Owen (09:54):
That framework is super interesting.
Um, you know, it sounds likethere's a lot of experience that
goes into this as well asawareness.
So you have to experience andthen you can become aware, then
you can make decisions.
Is that how this would,
Kayla (10:09):
I think it comes into a play of acceptance.
Uh, I think that at one point[inaudible] using the humanistic
approach of the idea that humanshave the potential to reach
their fullest potential if theyare given the resources.
So I think that if you were ina, in a position in which you,
uh, had the opportunity toreflect, you can, everyone can
(10:30):
reflect, right?
But at the end of the day, it's,are you choosing to accept this
or are you choosing to just dothe status quo, do what you've
always been used to.
And a lot of times we do thatbecause it's familiar and it's
the known and as we talked aboutit earlier this morning, we
don't really like the unknown.
Owen (10:46):
No certainty is certainly a great thing.
And I know, I love certaintythat even if it's unhelpful,
even if it is unhelpful, becauseit's, you know, what to expect
and know what to expect.
Um, and I, I think this mightthen line up to another
component to this.
And, and you know, in myresearch and some of the people
that I've read, uh, as, as itrelates to change and
(11:07):
organizational change morespecifically, uh, John Cotter
from, uh, the Harvard businessschool.
Um, he has a, uh, a great bookcalled leading change.
And in that book he's got aseries of steps that lay out
change within an organization.
So how to go about institutingchange, a right to anchoring it
within to the normal practicesof the organization once it
(11:29):
becomes generally accepted.
Um, you know, establishing asense of urgency is the number
one piece.
Uh, but just touching onsomething you had mentioned, um,
you know, just developing thevision behind, uh, what this
change could introduce and thencommunicating that, that, that
change, uh, to everybody so theyunderstand their role, uh, in,
in, in making that changehappen.
(11:51):
So casting that vision soundslike it would be a a big way to,
or a good way to get people tounderstand why the change is
taking place and, and, and, and,and where to go.
You maybe we can talk a littlebit about the, the, you know,
just what the future may hold asa result of incorporating some
of these steps.
Kayla (12:09):
You definitely get less resistance because you'd have
more buy-in because you're,you're taking the time to value
the individual.
So the person feels as thoughthat, well, I'm worth it enough
for this person to, toarticulate and communicate what,
what is needed of me.
But you also are, are alsocreating this space for the
(12:29):
individual to choose what typeof change that they need to make
in order to meet you at that, atthat, at that space, rather than
just implementing it immediatelywithout any disregard for any
one situation.
And then it's this idea ofchange, right?
And Change.
It's difficult, but choice ismuch easier,
Owen (12:48):
right?
So that could either remove thestress or not all of it, but
certainly the resistance, theresistance,
Kayla (12:54):
the initial resistance.
But I think the, an importantpiece as much as the, the sort
of the envision and how youarticulate the envision, it's
also recognizing that theenvironment that we spend the
most time in will influencechange the most anyways.
It may be slower going throughthat change, but when we think
(13:14):
about our brains, our brain is,we're creating habit and habits
is based on acute.
So something happening and theprocess of that cue and the
reward of it.
So if the process is always thesame, so the cue is that, okay,
we're doing a restructuralchange in this organization and
that there's, there'sconsistency there where every
(13:35):
day you go, that change is stilloccurring.
Then eventually that person'sgoing to have to make a choice
and a conscious choice more soof I can either accept that this
change is happening and be partof this, this, this change.
So being in the passenger seator I can be dragged in the back
and resist, but at the end ofthe day, it's happening
regardless because at the end ofthe day, the environment, what
(13:59):
we spend the most time in willinfluence that change.
Inevitably.
That's why that when individualsare taking out and research
shows that when people are takenout of specific environments in
which we believe that causes theresistance or what not, that
there's this huge shift that allof a sudden this individual may
feel heard, they may feel safe,they may feel acknowledged, they
(14:22):
may feel challenged in thepause, in the, in the stressful,
resilient way, right?
Versus the toxic way.
Right.
And then change is justinevitable because we're human
beings.
And his part of right beinghuman!
Owen (14:34):
it's part of being human.
And I mean, you certainlytouched on some things too that
we've seen as a reoccurringtheme as we've explored a change
in transition over the course ofthe month.
Uh, Jeff last week was a, he,he, he coined something that I
thought was well connected withme anyway.
So you can either live to changeor change to live a meaning.
You know, you can internalize itand look forward and be
(14:58):
proactive or you can, as yousaid, be that passenger and be
pulled along.
The change is going to happen.
Absolutely.
It's your mindset, how you, howyou want to approach it.
Um, so you know, there's certainthings organizations can do to
help remove some of thattoxicity associated, uh, to, uh,
to change.
But maybe we can talk a littlebit about maybe some other
(15:19):
things that organizations cando.
You know, it's certainlyemployees are, or people need to
be, um, thinking about how theycan be good stewards of change
for short, but certainly aleadership with an organizations
can, can, uh, go ahead andcreate an environment that might
be a little bit easier for thatchange to occur.
Any comments around?
(15:39):
Yeah,
Kayla (15:39):
there's sometimes a bottom up approach can be really
helpful by engaging the peoplethat are sort of the boots on
the ground of, of having thosedialogues.
And the most important piece ofsort of the bottom up idea is of
really being able to create aspace for reflection and
challenging because when weallow reflection and challenge
and we create stress, but in aresilient way, the positive
(16:01):
stress, it really does somethingas to a human being in the sense
that it creates an opportunityfor them to sort of reflect back
of of what, what that meaningmeans to them and and what worth
do they have.
So
Owen (16:17):
I, one word that comes to mind, sorry to interrupt those
motivation.
Absolutely.
But you know, certainly beingmotivated to move in the
direction of that change
Kayla (16:26):
but motivated to has a lot to do with belonging.
If I, if I feel that I belongand that choice for me means
worth that I feel I'm worthy andthat that worth translates to a
sense of belonging, thenbelonging is a super important
piece to our, our, our needs ofsurvival really in all spectrum.
In all concepts.
(16:46):
So, so if I feel that if you'llfeel needed is to feel human.
Yeah.
So why wouldn't that beempowering to me and why would
not?
I want to be motivated.
I want more of this.
Absolutely.
Right.
So that translate into themotivation in different aspects
of whether it's through skillsor through a new projects or
through w w time management or,or even the conversation of, of
(17:07):
conflict management to anythinggreat that we talk about in
terms of society and, and whatare the social norms.
But bottom line is, isabsolutely motivation.
But the key here is to bemotivated, is to, to, to want to
feel that there is there isworth here and that I feel I
have a place here, I have arole, I have a belonging
Owen (17:24):
and, and you know that just jumps back into the last
stage that John Kotter talksabout, which is anchoring the
new approaches of that changeinto the culture and having that
belonging, right?
So it then becomes a sense ofnormalcy.
This is just how we do things.
And this is why we do things.
Because this is the group thatI'm part of and I belong to this
group.
This is who we are.
(17:44):
Um, so I, I think that'sinteresting.
Consistency right.
And, and, and transparency andyou know, that could then equate
to removing maybe some of theunknown in the equation, right?
So certainly a, that ability toensure that, uh, you know,
people look at change andthere's uncertainty involved.
So it gives them more of that.
Kayla (18:06):
I reduces the level of unknown because there's, there's
always going to be unknownbecause even if you, you're, I'm
gonna use 99% sure.
Because we can never be 100%sure, right?
There's always that 1% and sortof that Murphy's law, right?
If something's going to happen,it's, everything's going to
happen, right?
So it's really about also justreducing these levels to a
(18:27):
manageable expectation that ofcourse, and acknowledging that
of course there's going to be alot of unknowns and
vulnerability, right?
Vulnerability and courage.
So leaders need to have thevulnerability and the courage of
being able to have those genuineconversations of saying, you
know, why?
Yeah, this is a choice thatwe're making as a team, but we
value just as much as what youhave to say as as much as what
(18:50):
we have to bring here.
Owen (18:52):
Right.
That's, that's a, that's afantastic point.
And you know, having thatcourage and you know, you, like
you said, you're never going tobe 100% certain.
So if you're waiting for that,you'll never take action.
And change is about action.
I'm trying to get from point ato point B and if you're looking
for that 100% certainty, you'llnever get it.
Kayla (19:11):
Change is about acceptance, you know that and
yes, once you accept, then it'schanged because in that moment
in time, as soon as you acceptedthat situation, you're no longer
in the situation you werebefore.
Owen (19:23):
Because back to your analogy here or that, that
framework that you introducedearlier with the, with the man
holes.
Kayla (19:29):
Absolutely.
Right.
So it, it'll take a couple oftimes and a couple turns and,
and the meaning of that story aswell as not so much of, you
know, if you take the adifferent road that nothing's
going to happen.
It's just that you may, youmight find yourself in a
different man hole, but that'sthe key here at different man
hole.
So you're still moving forward,right.
(19:50):
But not blindly in the sense ofI'm just having more intention
in the things that I do and alsothat acceptance and a lot of
people don't put courage andvulnerability together.
A lot of times I'll ask clients,you know, what does
vulnerability mean?
And they give me all theseunhelpful things and I said,
what does courage mean?
And all these positive things.
And I said, you can't, you can'thave courage without
(20:11):
vulnerability because you needto be able to be in a space of
being vulnerable in order to becourageous and vice versa.
So it's, I agree with that goesdown to acceptance, right?
Acceptance, not only of thepeople and of the process, but
of yourself.
Owen (20:25):
And you know, acceptance to me is a very emotional place.
Absolutely.
And I think awareness iscertainly something that is part
of this too.
And I think that can be more ofan intellectual or at least just
understanding so you canrationalize what's happening.
So maybe less emotion.
Uh, but they certainly gotogether to help drive the, in
(20:46):
order to make an informeddecision.
Right.
And I think that's really all wewant to do is make informed
decisions so people then acceptus and then we're part of that
group.
Kayla (20:55):
We forget that we're human.
Hey you're, you're right.
We do.
We have these conversations withtrying to encourage or motivate
people towards change.
We forget that as human beings,if we all know sort of
universally that change in theunknown is something quite
tricky.
Share that so that the peoplecan literally connect and be
like, he gets me.
(21:15):
Or okay, I'm, I'm on that samepage at that.
Those were the concerns I hadand I feel that I'm being
acknowledged because this personis bringing that topic out.
So that shows that they have avalue.
Owen (21:27):
Absolutely.
And I mean that, that's afantastic point because the
change that is looking to beinstituted is it's very
relational or very relationshiporiented.
It might be a better way ofputting it in, in, you know, the
foundation of a lot ofrelationships boils down to
trust.
Absolutely.
Um, you know, let's explore thattopic a little bit as we wrestle
(21:47):
the whole change and transitionsidea, you know, trust w w where
does trust fall into all ofthis?
Do you think?
Kayla (21:53):
Trust comes from safety, right?
And, and if we want to look atsafety on a broader context or
as different components thatsafety there is physical safety,
moral safety, social safety andpsychological safety.
Owen (22:06):
Uh, so I think of Maslow's hierarchy.
Kayla (22:08):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I always go back to AbrahamMaslow, right?
So that hierarchy of needs.
So if these needs are not met,how can you trust the process?
How can you trust yourself?
How you can trust other people.
Owen (22:20):
If you're at that base level all the time.
It's hard in your just in thatreaction mode, just fighting for
safety, right?
It's hard to aspire.
Kayla (22:27):
Absolutely.
And that's why there's that,that piece, that safety is very
much near the bottom because thevery first one is physiological
needs, like food, shelter andall these different things.
And then there's, there's thatsense of safety.
So how are you able to aspire tohaving motivation or having a
sense of acceptance or having asense of belonging or being a
(22:49):
contributing member of theorganization if you don't have
safety.
Right.
Um, so it's about also shiftingorganizations to reflect more of
the humanistic needs versus ofthe, uh, productive needs.
Because if you meet thehumanistic needs, you're going
to have production costs.
It's a domino effect.
Owen (23:09):
It starts there and I think here Dovico believe that,
that it starts with the peopleand making sure that, um, you
know, the technical piece willtake care of itself so long as
the person is taken care of.
Kayla (23:22):
Because we talk about work life balance balance.
At the end of the day, yeah.
Of being intentional about thisis here and this is there an
acceptance.
But at the end of the day, thepattern here is these are the
same people, these are the samepeople.
You're, you're one person.
Yeah.
So it would be in some ways, Iguess ignorant to believe that
people can literally separate,separate the two.
So I think it's an importantaspect as an organization to be
(23:44):
just cognizant to that even ifthey're not shouting it out of
making sure that, you know, thephysiological, so what type of
food discussions that arehappening in the organization or
accessibility to food, whetherit's like making sure that we
value breaks and we value, youknow, have you eaten today?
Whether it comes from comedy ornot or, or offering potluck,
like just having those types ofthings a nd, and shelter in the
(24:06):
sense of the organization.
What type of environment is it?
Is O ur t hings all broken and uh, a nd despair and the t
oilet's not working all thesethings.
Or is this an environment wherepeople can feel comfortable in
and can feel as though that theyhave a shelter?
I'm thinking work-wise in termsof a shelter of, okay, this is a
comfortable space.
This is my space,
Owen (24:27):
so if intuitionally we can recognize that it is a safe
space and we have experiencesthat it is a safe space and we
trust our leaders that arecasting these visions of change.
I guess what does that do for anemployee or a person to want to
aspire to?
Kayla (24:45):
That change will be very much easier because you're
already having that bank in thatbrain of yours.
That's going to be thatshortcut, the shortcut of of, of
any challenge in thatenvironment because again, the
more time you spend in theenvironment, you'll have the
most influence.
So if that environment ispositive and challenging and
supportive and resilient andconsistent and all the nice
(25:07):
things, right, the positivestress, then no matter what
occurs in that environment, theperson's probably going to have
more instances of resilience andmore instances of feeling and so
they have a choice in the matterversus the toxic stress.
And feeling as though I'mpressured to change and I'm not
ready.
Hence going through thesepre-contemplation and all these
(25:28):
things and maybe staying stuckin them, which we call
ambivalence right, of, I know Ishould be going there, but I'm
still, I keep going the otherway.
Owen (25:36):
I've been in the, not necessarily work oriented, but
personally I know change isneeded, but I just don't know
where to go.
So you become ambivalent.
Kayla (25:44):
and that, and that bubbles into work just as much
to a certain spectrum.
If you feel very confident inthe work that you do, you may
not experience as much as thatas as in your personal life, but
at the end of the day, you'restill going to experience that
everything's on a spectrum andit's not always all or nothing.
We have to really pay attentionto where is it on the scale that
(26:05):
I feel that it's manageablebecause that's where true change
can occur.
Owen (26:10):
You know?
Just to go back to Kotter toright, just establishing that
sense of urgency.
So where depending where you areon that spectrum, you know,
whether I don't need to, I'mambivalent or oh my God,
something absolutely has tochange that.
Then it creates that motivationneeded to then start looking for
solutions that you become moreaware and then you can rely on
your experiences too.
Kayla (26:30):
or you become desperate and you'll and you cookie cut
it..accordingly.
Absolutely.
So it plays both sides.
So it's about the new try beingneutral, have you know that have
just, I guess it's all aboutjust reflective, like just ask
yourself the question like ifyour body is doing something
different than in this presentmoment, then just check in with
(26:51):
it.
I was like, okay, I've, I've allof a sudden I feel stressed out.
What am I doing and why?
Right.
And at that point then you canmake the informed decision of,
okay, you can choose to acceptit, let it go or do something
different.
Owen (27:05):
And really those are the three choices that you have in,
in, in really anything.
Yeah.
Kayla (27:09):
Yeah.
Please, please tell me I'mwrong.
Right.
I'd love to have a debate aboutthat.
These three choices are, there'smore than those three, but very
much so.
Owen (27:17):
We were on a topic earlier, we were just talking
about a, you know,organizationally and culturally,
uh, and you know, organizationalculture is such a big topic
today.
Um, I'd like to have you backhere and didn't just, I think
we're onto something there.
So, uh, I'm going to go back andlisten to that a little bit
more, but, uh, there arecertainly some, some, some, some
(27:38):
topics there that I think areworth exploring and, and, and
helping, uh, I guess peel thatback a little bit too.
Um, so, you know, you've changedcareers, you've changed, uh,
organizations in which youworked.
Uh, maybe you can talk a littlebit about some of the things
that you've experienced from achange perspective, making those
transitions, you know, whathappened in your life that you
(27:59):
decided a change needed to takeplace.
Um, you know, what was it liketo, and I, you know, I think we
can all relate to that.
You know, moving from one placeto another and just having a, uh
, a whole new world thrown ourway.
Kayla (28:12):
Absolutely.
Um, I think the most significantpiece here is transitioning or
the change of being an avid, uh,career woman and to
transitioning into being amother by choice.
Right.
I am cognizant that I'm, I'mprivileged in the sense that
I've, I made that intentionalchoice rather than it happened
(28:35):
or, or whatnot.
Um, so really that changed fromworking all the time and really
having the values of, of workand my contribution to society
and my community and being verypassionate about the things that
I do, uh, into shifting myintended values, uh, while still
doing the work that I'mpassionate about because my
(28:55):
passion is there.
So it's a very much a dilemmabetween the choice of, of the
value of, of family and, and ofworth there versus the worth
that I have as my other identityand making sure that all of my
identities have a, have a fairshare, that it's not just one,
that as soon as it's gone, it'slike, who am I?
Right?
But very much having thatbalance
Owen (29:15):
and your values probably don't change a whole lot between
these roles.
So there has to be some sort ofalignment as well.
But the beliefs change becausethat's where we, the, the, the
issues lies.
Not necessarily the valuesvalues change.
Uh, but for the most part,individuals values, including
mine, stay the same.
But the beliefs associated tothose values can change
depending on the environmentthat we're in.
(29:37):
So at one point, I know that,uh, I was creating my sort of a
space of a lot of stress formyself of thinking that I had to
choose between the two.
But really with reflection isthinking, well, no, I, I think
and I believe that I can createa space that both can, can
coexist in this world of mine.
Right?
So, um, it was really importantfor me to recognize that I am in
(30:00):
a position of, of privilegebecause I'm able to choose my
career to fit my values aroundmy daughter and my partner.
Not a lot of people have thoseopportunities.
And for those like, great.
So that that key piece isimportant to be reflective of
that and to be intentional aboutthat, that not everybody can
just right.
Make that choice.
Right.
And you know when you're facedwith change in either of those
(30:25):
situations, whether or notyou've chosen this career or
this is the career that justhappened to be there, the way
that you approach the changewith probably a little bit
different depending upon whereyou find yourself,
Kayla (30:37):
because the value might be different if the value is
about, or maybe the belief, ifthe belief is I need to do
whatever I need to do to befinancially safe, then sometimes
that may mean that people makechoices of entering into a type
of, I would say job because acareer is something that you
would be intentionallypassionate about, right?
To turn into a job that is inyour opinion, is awful.
(31:00):
You're stressed, you're unhappy.
This can result in to burnoutsbecause burnout is not always
about doing too much.
It could be also about not doingenough and not being challenged.
So you go into all these myriadsof different things.
So in my situation, I felt thatI was able to still be a
counselling therapist and to bethere as, as a parent, but that
(31:21):
also made a decision of whattype of work that I did previous
to that, that the work andenvironment that I was in did
not allow for that flexibility.
That I wasn't necessarily ableto, um, be actively involved
into the things that I waspassionate about, whether it be
mental health or, or food orsocial justice, et cetera.
(31:42):
Um, and also being able to, tobe there in a, in a, um,
Owen (31:48):
a larger capacity than....
Yeah.
And in a genuine capacity andintentional capacity, not just
doing the parent thing, butbeing definitely as a parent, I
know exactly what you're talkingabout.
It's, it's important and youdon't, when people talk about
that work life balance a, youknow, I think that might be what
we allude to is just having thatability to be more present in
(32:11):
one aspect of our life.
Um, and you know, not be, um,not be shunned.
Uh, and the other aspect, and Imean to me it, it works both
ways.
Like your family has to beaccepting that, you know, if, if
they, if something is reallyurgent at work and not
everything is urgent.
So you have to be making thosedecisions to existing and
(32:32):
coexisting.
We talked about that.
Or you're one person, right?
So being able to do, beingintentional
Kayla (32:36):
about it and when you're intentional about it, then
you're also being transparentabout it and you're having those
conversations instead ofreacting, you're, you're really
reflecting on that.
So, so it's not to think that,you know, in my situation that
or any type of situation is easyof, okay, you make that decision
and you go, that's not reallythe point here.
The point is, you know, will yougive yourself the permission to,
(33:01):
to learn and to interpretatethings differently.
Right?
Right.
So I could have taken that asthis is going to be a really
stressful situation and what amI going to do a, I guess I'm
going to have to just leave mywork and stay at home for the
rest of my life or whatever itmight be and and some and it is
a spectrum.
Some people, the choice is thatin this present moment that is a
(33:22):
choice that makes the mostsense, but it's also about what
is the learning here?
What is the learning that I canget from this, this pressure
that is being put upon me.
Right.
Because if you can learn fromit, then that, that's the key
piece of change.
Owen (33:38):
I love that.
I think that that makes so muchsense.
I mean it's the learning is thatexperience.
Absolutely.
We were talking about earlier.
Kayla (33:44):
because sometimes as we talked about change is
inevitable and sometimes theoutcomes are not always
favorable.
It's not about the outcome asmuch as it is a pote.
What did I learn from myself inthis experience?
Perhaps I learned, you know,better boundaries or better
management or you know, Ilearned a lot about myself.
Owen (34:05):
What I like about that is I think independent of the
result that you get from thechange, you can be a little bit
more forgiving of yourself.
Empathy, things don't go, yeah,empathy is fantastic right here.
Yeah.
Because you know, it's sometimesthe result is beyond your
control.
Even no matter how well-intendedyou were with the change plan.
(34:26):
Absolutely.
But if you're always looking forthat learning opportunity, what,
what, what really happened here?
What can I learn?
Um, I think we can be a littlebit more.
Kayla (34:34):
Than change will always be valuable to you and positive.
And it will create a space whereyou can actually ask yourself
and perhaps answer, you know,will you accept change
unconditionally as much as youcan put yourself in a, in a
space of, of accepting yourselfunconditionally.
Right.
Because again, change isinevitable as part of human.
(34:56):
I think that is part of one ofthe questions of what is the
purpose of life, right?
And the journey of, of change.
But it's, it's really about justthat unconditional acceptance
that you don't, you don't needto like it.
It's there will always bepresent, but can you change the
perspective of how am I seeingit?
So can I change the perceptionof this feels like a bad
(35:18):
situation, but can't I change itinto something neutral or
something positive?
It's all about our perspective.
Owen (35:25):
Mindset is big and absolutely what Jeff had said.
Uh, you know, it the whole liveto change or change to live.
I think that's why I reallyenjoyed that perspective is just
based around that.
And I mean we just touched onsome, some great mental health
components to all of this too.
Um, you know, ways of dealingwith the stress associated with
change.
(35:45):
And I think a lot of it has toboils down to that is just being
accepting of yourself and, and,and you know, the, the things
that are happening and you know,not getting caught up in the
results.
And, you know, being in thebusiness world, very results
oriented.
We want to see our actions equalthe results.
But again, you don't always getthe results that you're after,
especially with the externalenvironment always coming in
(36:09):
and, and you know, factoring inor influencing the, the, the
direction.
Kayla (36:13):
It's a mix, right?
It is.
It's a mix of internal andexternal.
If you're not on point that day,because let's say you had an
argument with your spouse or youdidn't sleep well or you might
have a cold or whatnot, youmight not be on your quote
unquote game.
Right?
So as much as the externalenvironment has an influence on
the decisions or the, thechanges that are there, there's
(36:36):
also the internal of where areyou at in that sense, you know,
do you feel that you are, youknow, you're at your best at
that point or are you ignoringall the signs because you have
this belief of I have to do, Ihave to succeed no matter what.
Right?
This extreme.
Owen (36:54):
And you know, when you're in that situation, you know,
yeah, the changes you're puttingin place are all, they all boil
down to decisions that you endup making.
Um, and you know, sometimesthose decisions are based around
habits.
Um, so are they intentionalalso?
Kayla (37:09):
Are they intentional?
Right, right.
He really goes down to thatbecause you're it and, and
sometimes I might have clientssay, am I didn't have a choice.
We always have choices.
But whether we're conscious ofthe choices is at a different
situation, right?
Because you're absolutely right.
If it's a habit, if it's allwe've known, then this automatic
sort of automatic or autopilothappens, right?
(37:30):
That is just, it very quicklygoes into that train of thought
and then we are compelled to,to, to react in that sense.
So when we actually create thatspace of, of just acceptance and
reflection, we just check in.
It doesn't mean that you know,you can't trust yourself just
that you have so much value foryourself that you want to make
(37:50):
sure that you make an informeddecision regardless of the
circumstances.
That's a good way of putting it.
It's just takingresponsibilities for,
Owen (37:56):
well then you can't take responsibility if you're, if
you're going to take that stepback and, and, and, and, and
make sure that you are aware
Kayla (38:03):
and you can own, own the consequences regardless whether
it's helpful or not.
Because if it ends up not beinghelpful, you'll have empathy
towards yourself as saying, youknow what, at least I tried and
this is what I learned from itand maybe I can do this
differently, but when we don'treally reflect on those things,
this fight, flight or freezehappens.
Right?
Right.
So that alarm goes off.
I'm either going to blamesomeone else, blame myself.
(38:26):
Right.
Or I'm going to just ignore thatit didn't happen.
Which we all know that even themonkeys that can't see, can't
hear, can't speak evil.
Evil is still there.
Owen (38:35):
Yeah.
And if you go into any of thosesituations too, just at a
reaction, you can't get intothat area of learning from what,
Kayla (38:44):
that's only the surface.
That's about 10% right.
Going back to the iceberg whenthe other 90% are actually what
influences at all?
Yeah, it does.
Owen (38:54):
You know, as a counseling therapist, you probably see a
lot of that and you try to helppeople understand that, mindset
right?
Kayla (39:01):
I actually have a picture of an iceberg behind, behind the
client's head so that it justsays a reminder that what I see
presently there, because I'm ahuman being too.
So sometimes their reactions andwhat they're saying Kinda shifts
away from me being intentionaland that iceberg allows me to
come back and be like, that'stheir 10%.
(39:21):
So creating that sense ofacceptance and of empathy so
that I can go back and have morereflective and profound
questions to help them seektheir answer.
Right?
So it plays two ways in the, onthe therapeutic side of things.
Owen (39:36):
That's wonderful.
I mean it is such a great topichere.
Really appreciate you coming inand sharing, uh, your
perspectives on this and yourideas and, and sharing some of
the research that you've donebehind this.
Uh, you've got a wealth ofknowledge to share.
I'd like to explore other topicswith you, so I look forward to
having you come back in and, andshare with us.
Kayla (39:57):
Absolutely.
And thank you so much for havingme.
This has been an, uh,intellectually and interesting
conversation.
Owen (40:04):
It's great.
It's always fun.
I always enjoy my conversationswith you.
Um, you have a website.
Absolutely.
Uh, do you wanna go ahead.
Kayla (40:10):
www.Breelove.ca uh, and it's for Breelove Counselling
and we also have a communitycounselling program where we
make sure that we provide accessto mental health services, uh,
free of charge for those thatare in need.
Owen (40:24):
That's, that's, it's a wonderful service.
And you know, mental health is a, a certainly a, a big component
to our wellbeing.
So thank you for doingeverything that you do to help
those in our community that needto, you know, find that level of
comfort with themselves and withtheir, with their environments.
So really, really appreciate howit is health, right?
Health.
It's w and we talk about this as, you know, that whole
(40:48):
perspective, uh, the wholenessof it all.
So influential, it all impactsone another.
As you mentioned, the, uh, thephrase ripple effect earlier
during a, one of ourconversations prior to us
talking today.
So, yeah, it's all influential.
So again, thank you for, forsharing your thoughts and
perspectives and look forward toour next conversation.
Great.
Take care.
Today, I'd like to welcome Kayla Breedlove Carter here to
our Dovico podcast.
She has, she's licensedtherapist.
Uh, she has, her own counselingservice called Breedlove
counseling.
And today we are going toexplore the expansive topic of
change and transitions.
And that's going to coincidewith a theme here that we've
(00:25):
been running with for the monthof August.
The month of August tends to bea transition month of people
moving from vacation mode backinto work, into a sense of
normalcy, kids back, to schoolfrom the, uh, the
unstructuredness of, of summer.
So, um, it is a good topic toexplore and, you know, we have
change in almost every facet ofour lives.
(00:48):
It's, something that, thathappens to everybody, um,
regularly.
And you know, if you don't takethe time to sit back and think
about it, um, then you become,maybe someone who is reactive to
the change as opposed to, youknow, anticipating or, or, or
looking for the ways that yourlife, uh, can be a little bit
(01:15):
different if you're, if you'remanaging that change.
Uh, so you know, a little bitfrom a proactive, to reactive.
So, uh, we're, we're going toexplore some of these topics
here.
So, Kayla, welcome and thank youfor, for sharing, uh, some of
the things that, uh, that, that,you know, we've, we've just
spent a 20, 25 minutes here afew moments ago, uh, discussing
(01:35):
this with, with the group, uh,here at Dovico.
So looking forward to getting alittle bit more in depth.
I know you've got a lot more toshare.
[inaudible] really lookingforward to this conversation.
So again, thank you.
So, um, change, uh, you know,again, uh, it happens to us
every day.
There's things that go on bothinternally and externally.
(01:56):
Um, so change is just part ofour lives.
Uh, you know, eve mentioned thisin one of his Monday morning
lives.
Uh, you know, it might be alittle extreme, but it's true
yet you change or you die.
Uh, you know, it's, it's one orthe other.
Um, and, you know, I guess maybejust taking it from a, you know,
how our mind processes it so wecan get a little bit of science
behind this.
(02:17):
You know, I guess how does ourmind respond to change?
He, you know, things happen and,and we take it in, maybe you can
talk about how our brain works.
Kayla (02:25):
Absolutely.
So in terms of our brain, if wethink about on a neurobiological
level, uh, we have what iscalled a prefrontal cortex.
So this, uh, piece of the brain,which is that the very front is
where information is taken in.
Uh, so whether it be by what yousee, what you hear, what you
taste, what you smell, whatyou've touch.
(02:46):
Uh, it's really that aspectwhere it takes all of the world
in.
O ne thing to, to sort of bemindful about is that the brain
doesn't differentiate betweengood or bad, or whether this is
good or irrelevant information.
It just takes it all in.
So that means that really if wethink about it on, um, iceberg
(03:07):
point of view, it's really 10%of it that we're actually
intentionally aware of thatinformation coming in.
But there's an whole other 90%that we have absolutely no
collection or recollection ofwhether that actually had an
influence or not, unless weactually reflect upon it.
Uh, so once that information isin, and sort of one little
(03:30):
tidbit here, uh, that's whysleep is so important because
sleep is when our brain gets theopportunity to kind of take a
breather and make the connectionand start sorting out all of
this, all of this stuff that wetook on the full day.
So for those night owls outthere, like that means all day
plus night that the brain cantake in W hen I g o t o b ed, I
(03:51):
take it a l ot.
Okay, well there you go.
Right?
And that's why, you know, thatwe sometimes we feel that sense
of exhaustion, but that's reallyour body telling us, hey, u h, t
aking a lot of information here,can we k inda just take a break
so that we can process this andput it away?
U h, so once we get to thatpoint of where do we process
this information and how do weput things away, that's where
(04:12):
the hippocampus comes into play.
So the hippocampus is sort of inthe middle ish part of, of our
brain there.
And it, I, I usually give the,the theory of, uh, or the
metaphor of a librarian.
So Librarian, uh, has bookscoming in from people taking it
out and then they startcategorizing it and then putting
it away.
(04:32):
So that's how our hypocampusplays that role, that it, it
sort of goes through theinformation that the prefrontal
Cortex, uh, picked up throughoutthe day and starts to categorize
and ma making those connections.
Uh, so if there's been, uh, thesame experiences, well then that
information is then put intothat same category of
experience.
Owen (04:51):
So you can make sense of things, right?
You often hear that term, youknow, think outside the box.
Well there's boxes in place andthis has been a floor.
But yeah, this metaphor lines upwith that.
I mean, we've got all thisinformation and we need to think
about it, but so it's allrelational.
You need to understand, yeah, weneed to make that, that
connection relationally.
(05:12):
Uh, and the more that weexperienced the same or the
similar circumstances, thequicker that those, those
connections will be made becausethe brain's responsibility in
some ways is to make quoteunquote"our life easier".
It's better.
It's easier said than done isthat kind of intuition when we
talk intuition?
Kayla (05:31):
uh, in, in some ways, yeah.
Yeah.
So when, uh, but it goes evendeeper than that because
sometimes we don't listen to ourintuition.
So even though that our brain,yes, there's the intuition
piece, but there's also theperceived threat piece.
So let's say that thisinformation that we reocurently
see all the time is somethingthat might be unhelpful, like
(05:51):
maybe dysfunctional family ormaybe trauma, poverty, etc.
These, the brain will stillcategorize it and make those
short connections.
So as a result of that,unfortunately when we experience
something similar to it, like asense of I don't feel safe or a
sense of judgment, et Cetera, itwill, it will quickly go to that
frame of reference and then ourbody will react to it.
(06:14):
Right.
Even though that in theperception of the situation is,
I'm not in the same situation asI was then, so it plays both
sides from a positive aspect of,okay, the more that I practice
riding my bike, the easier itgets because my connection is
being made versus the more thanI'm being yelled at and said
that I'm not good enough.
The more that the next time thatI'm in any situations where it
(06:37):
is asked of me to challengemyself, that's the end result
that you're going to be.
That's the connection that'sgoing to be made, but then
there's a choice and that'swhere change comes into play.
I can choose to take thatinformation and reflect upon it.
Right.
Intentionally and withacceptance or I can choose to
react to it and most of us, wedo react to it right?
(06:58):
Until we get to a point that wejust can't take it enough.
And it kind of goes to the, thestages of change, right?
So in stages of changes, we havea six stages.
So we have the precontemplation.
So let's imagine this way.
So in pre-contemplation, thinkabout a person going down a
street and falling into amanhole.
(07:18):
I just fell in a manhole.
That's a pre-contemplation.
So you don't recognize that youhave an issue.
Uh, so you're just, okay, you'reambivalent.
Uh, oblivious to it.
I just, I fell in a manhole, sosometimes we're stuck in that
I'm a victim because I can'tbelieve this happened to me and
I'm, I'm in the hole.
Then you have the contemplationstage where the same person goes
(07:40):
down the same road and falls inthe hole again.
It's like, oh, I fell in thehole again, but still no
connection as to, you know,whether I should change my ways
or not.
But I'm recognizing there's aproblem here.
Okay.
Because, and this is, again, youcould be in that stage of, of,
of victim, right?
Then you have the preparationphase.
(08:01):
So in the preparation phase, yougo down the same road, you fall
in the hole again, or like Ifell in that hole again.
I really need to stop falling inthis hole.
So there is the preparation thatnow you've recognized that
there's a problem, but you'realso starting to think of, I
need to do something about this.
Then you go into the actionphase.
(08:22):
So the action phase is as anexample back that person going
down the street, they recognizethat the hole's there, they walk
around the hole, but they stillwalk very closely to it.
So the actionable is that we'retaking baby steps in the process
of change, but we're still sortof at threat of we're still
vulnerable that we may fall backinto that hole.
(08:43):
But for the time being, thosebaby steps are kind of okay, I
didn't fall in the hole thisway.
Then you go into, uh, themaintenance stage.
Some people say it couldpotentially, this is where the
room for relapse could happen.
So in the maintenance stages,I'm walking that same street and
I'm again walking around thathole.
So now it's like, yeah, I seethat hole, I'm not walking in
(09:05):
that hole.
I'm going around.
But then you have thetermination or the acceptance
piece and that piece is wherethat person decides, you know
what, I'm just going to take adifferent street.
So then you just completely makethat change into this is no
longer helpful for me.
So let's go back to the ideathat someone's been saying that
(09:25):
you're not good enough for allthese times and you've made that
decision of challenging them.
I say, you know what?
This is not valid anymore, soI'm discrediting this.
I'm going to challenge it.
So the more the challenge it,the more that the brain, now
that that pathway becomesirrelevant and then a new
pathways done the pathway of no,I am good enough.
And then all of a sudden itbecomes almost second nature
(09:46):
that this idea of, as soon as westart having those doubts or
we're challenged, it's like, Ican do this rather than I can't
do this because I'm not goodenough.
Owen (09:54):
That framework is super interesting.
Um, you know, it sounds likethere's a lot of experience that
goes into this as well asawareness.
So you have to experience andthen you can become aware, then
you can make decisions.
Is that how this would,
Kayla (10:09):
I think it comes into a play of acceptance.
Uh, I think that at one point[inaudible] using the humanistic
approach of the idea that humanshave the potential to reach
their fullest potential if theyare given the resources.
So I think that if you were ina, in a position in which you,
uh, had the opportunity toreflect, you can, everyone can
(10:30):
reflect, right?
But at the end of the day, it's,are you choosing to accept this
or are you choosing to just dothe status quo, do what you've
always been used to.
And a lot of times we do thatbecause it's familiar and it's
the known and as we talked aboutit earlier this morning, we
don't really like the unknown.
Owen (10:46):
No certainty is certainly a great thing.
And I know, I love certaintythat even if it's unhelpful,
even if it is unhelpful, becauseit's, you know, what to expect
and know what to expect.
Um, and I, I think this mightthen line up to another
component to this.
And, and you know, in myresearch and some of the people
that I've read, uh, as, as itrelates to change and
(11:07):
organizational change morespecifically, uh, John Cotter
from, uh, the Harvard businessschool.
Um, he has a, uh, a great bookcalled leading change.
And in that book he's got aseries of steps that lay out
change within an organization.
So how to go about institutingchange, a right to anchoring it
within to the normal practicesof the organization once it
(11:29):
becomes generally accepted.
Um, you know, establishing asense of urgency is the number
one piece.
Uh, but just touching onsomething you had mentioned, um,
you know, just developing thevision behind, uh, what this
change could introduce and thencommunicating that, that, that
change, uh, to everybody so theyunderstand their role, uh, in,
in, in making that changehappen.
(11:51):
So casting that vision soundslike it would be a a big way to,
or a good way to get people tounderstand why the change is
taking place and, and, and, and,and where to go.
You maybe we can talk a littlebit about the, the, you know,
just what the future may hold asa result of incorporating some
of these steps.
Kayla (12:09):
You definitely get less resistance because you'd have
more buy-in because you're,you're taking the time to value
the individual.
So the person feels as thoughthat, well, I'm worth it enough
for this person to, toarticulate and communicate what,
what is needed of me.
But you also are, are alsocreating this space for the
(12:29):
individual to choose what typeof change that they need to make
in order to meet you at that, atthat, at that space, rather than
just implementing it immediatelywithout any disregard for any
one situation.
And then it's this idea ofchange, right?
And Change.
It's difficult, but choice ismuch easier,
Owen (12:48):
right?
So that could either remove thestress or not all of it, but
certainly the resistance, theresistance,
Kayla (12:54):
the initial resistance.
But I think the, an importantpiece as much as the, the sort
of the envision and how youarticulate the envision, it's
also recognizing that theenvironment that we spend the
most time in will influencechange the most anyways.
It may be slower going throughthat change, but when we think
(13:14):
about our brains, our brain is,we're creating habit and habits
is based on acute.
So something happening and theprocess of that cue and the
reward of it.
So if the process is always thesame, so the cue is that, okay,
we're doing a restructuralchange in this organization and
that there's, there'sconsistency there where every
(13:35):
day you go, that change is stilloccurring.
Then eventually that person'sgoing to have to make a choice
and a conscious choice more soof I can either accept that this
change is happening and be partof this, this, this change.
So being in the passenger seator I can be dragged in the back
and resist, but at the end ofthe day, it's happening
regardless because at the end ofthe day, the environment, what
(13:59):
we spend the most time in willinfluence that change.
Inevitably.
That's why that when individualsare taking out and research
shows that when people are takenout of specific environments in
which we believe that causes theresistance or what not, that
there's this huge shift that allof a sudden this individual may
feel heard, they may feel safe,they may feel acknowledged, they
(14:22):
may feel challenged in thepause, in the, in the stressful,
resilient way, right?
Versus the toxic way.
Right.
And then change is justinevitable because we're human
beings.
And his part of right beinghuman!
Owen (14:34):
it's part of being human.
And I mean, you certainlytouched on some things too that
we've seen as a reoccurringtheme as we've explored a change
in transition over the course ofthe month.
Uh, Jeff last week was a, he,he, he coined something that I
thought was well connected withme anyway.
So you can either live to changeor change to live a meaning.
You know, you can internalize itand look forward and be
(14:58):
proactive or you can, as yousaid, be that passenger and be
pulled along.
The change is going to happen.
Absolutely.
It's your mindset, how you, howyou want to approach it.
Um, so you know, there's certainthings organizations can do to
help remove some of thattoxicity associated, uh, to, uh,
to change.
But maybe we can talk a littlebit about maybe some other
(15:19):
things that organizations cando.
You know, it's certainlyemployees are, or people need to
be, um, thinking about how theycan be good stewards of change
for short, but certainly aleadership with an organizations
can, can, uh, go ahead andcreate an environment that might
be a little bit easier for thatchange to occur.
Any comments around?
(15:39):
Yeah,
Kayla (15:39):
there's sometimes a bottom up approach can be really
helpful by engaging the peoplethat are sort of the boots on
the ground of, of having thosedialogues.
And the most important piece ofsort of the bottom up idea is of
really being able to create aspace for reflection and
challenging because when weallow reflection and challenge
and we create stress, but in aresilient way, the positive
(16:01):
stress, it really does somethingas to a human being in the sense
that it creates an opportunityfor them to sort of reflect back
of of what, what that meaningmeans to them and and what worth
do they have.
So
Owen (16:17):
I, one word that comes to mind, sorry to interrupt those
motivation.
Absolutely.
But you know, certainly beingmotivated to move in the
direction of that change
Kayla (16:26):
but motivated to has a lot to do with belonging.
If I, if I feel that I belongand that choice for me means
worth that I feel I'm worthy andthat that worth translates to a
sense of belonging, thenbelonging is a super important
piece to our, our, our needs ofsurvival really in all spectrum.
In all concepts.
(16:46):
So, so if I feel that if you'llfeel needed is to feel human.
Yeah.
So why wouldn't that beempowering to me and why would
not?
I want to be motivated.
I want more of this.
Absolutely.
Right.
So that translate into themotivation in different aspects
of whether it's through skillsor through a new projects or
through w w time management or,or even the conversation of, of
(17:07):
conflict management to anythinggreat that we talk about in
terms of society and, and whatare the social norms.
But bottom line is, isabsolutely motivation.
But the key here is to bemotivated, is to, to, to want to
feel that there is there isworth here and that I feel I
have a place here, I have arole, I have a belonging
Owen (17:24):
and, and you know that just jumps back into the last
stage that John Kotter talksabout, which is anchoring the
new approaches of that changeinto the culture and having that
belonging, right?
So it then becomes a sense ofnormalcy.
This is just how we do things.
And this is why we do things.
Because this is the group thatI'm part of and I belong to this
group.
This is who we are.
(17:44):
Um, so I, I think that'sinteresting.
Consistency right.
And, and, and transparency andyou know, that could then equate
to removing maybe some of theunknown in the equation, right?
So certainly a, that ability toensure that, uh, you know,
people look at change andthere's uncertainty involved.
So it gives them more of that.
Kayla (18:06):
I reduces the level of unknown because there's, there's
always going to be unknownbecause even if you, you're, I'm
gonna use 99% sure.
Because we can never be 100%sure, right?
There's always that 1% and sortof that Murphy's law, right?
If something's going to happen,it's, everything's going to
happen, right?
So it's really about also justreducing these levels to a
(18:27):
manageable expectation that ofcourse, and acknowledging that
of course there's going to be alot of unknowns and
vulnerability, right?
Vulnerability and courage.
So leaders need to have thevulnerability and the courage of
being able to have those genuineconversations of saying, you
know, why?
Yeah, this is a choice thatwe're making as a team, but we
value just as much as what youhave to say as as much as what
(18:50):
we have to bring here.
Owen (18:52):
Right.
That's, that's a, that's afantastic point.
And you know, having thatcourage and you know, you, like
you said, you're never going tobe 100% certain.
So if you're waiting for that,you'll never take action.
And change is about action.
I'm trying to get from point ato point B and if you're looking
for that 100% certainty, you'llnever get it.
Kayla (19:11):
Change is about acceptance, you know that and
yes, once you accept, then it'schanged because in that moment
in time, as soon as you acceptedthat situation, you're no longer
in the situation you werebefore.
Owen (19:23):
Because back to your analogy here or that, that
framework that you introducedearlier with the, with the man
holes.
Kayla (19:29):
Absolutely.
Right.
So it, it'll take a couple oftimes and a couple turns and,
and the meaning of that story aswell as not so much of, you
know, if you take the adifferent road that nothing's
going to happen.
It's just that you may, youmight find yourself in a
different man hole, but that'sthe key here at different man
hole.
So you're still moving forward,right.
(19:50):
But not blindly in the sense ofI'm just having more intention
in the things that I do and alsothat acceptance and a lot of
people don't put courage andvulnerability together.
A lot of times I'll ask clients,you know, what does
vulnerability mean?
And they give me all theseunhelpful things and I said,
what does courage mean?
And all these positive things.
And I said, you can't, you can'thave courage without
(20:11):
vulnerability because you needto be able to be in a space of
being vulnerable in order to becourageous and vice versa.
So it's, I agree with that goesdown to acceptance, right?
Acceptance, not only of thepeople and of the process, but
of yourself.
Owen (20:25):
And you know, acceptance to me is a very emotional place.
Absolutely.
And I think awareness iscertainly something that is part
of this too.
And I think that can be more ofan intellectual or at least just
understanding so you canrationalize what's happening.
So maybe less emotion.
Uh, but they certainly gotogether to help drive the, in
(20:46):
order to make an informeddecision.
Right.
And I think that's really all wewant to do is make informed
decisions so people then acceptus and then we're part of that
group.
Kayla (20:55):
We forget that we're human.
Hey you're, you're right.
We do.
We have these conversations withtrying to encourage or motivate
people towards change.
We forget that as human beings,if we all know sort of
universally that change in theunknown is something quite
tricky.
Share that so that the peoplecan literally connect and be
like, he gets me.
(21:15):
Or okay, I'm, I'm on that samepage at that.
Those were the concerns I hadand I feel that I'm being
acknowledged because this personis bringing that topic out.
So that shows that they have avalue.
Owen (21:27):
Absolutely.
And I mean that, that's afantastic point because the
change that is looking to beinstituted is it's very
relational or very relationshiporiented.
It might be a better way ofputting it in, in, you know, the
foundation of a lot ofrelationships boils down to
trust.
Absolutely.
Um, you know, let's explore thattopic a little bit as we wrestle
(21:47):
the whole change and transitionsidea, you know, trust w w where
does trust fall into all ofthis?
Do you think?
Kayla (21:53):
Trust comes from safety, right?
And, and if we want to look atsafety on a broader context or
as different components thatsafety there is physical safety,
moral safety, social safety andpsychological safety.
Owen (22:06):
Uh, so I think of Maslow's hierarchy.
Kayla (22:08):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I always go back to AbrahamMaslow, right?
So that hierarchy of needs.
So if these needs are not met,how can you trust the process?
How can you trust yourself?
How you can trust other people.
Owen (22:20):
If you're at that base level all the time.
It's hard in your just in thatreaction mode, just fighting for
safety, right?
It's hard to aspire.
Kayla (22:27):
Absolutely.
And that's why there's that,that piece, that safety is very
much near the bottom because thevery first one is physiological
needs, like food, shelter andall these different things.
And then there's, there's thatsense of safety.
So how are you able to aspire tohaving motivation or having a
sense of acceptance or having asense of belonging or being a
(22:49):
contributing member of theorganization if you don't have
safety.
Right.
Um, so it's about also shiftingorganizations to reflect more of
the humanistic needs versus ofthe, uh, productive needs.
Because if you meet thehumanistic needs, you're going
to have production costs.
It's a domino effect.
Owen (23:09):
It starts there and I think here Dovico believe that,
that it starts with the peopleand making sure that, um, you
know, the technical piece willtake care of itself so long as
the person is taken care of.
Kayla (23:22):
Because we talk about work life balance balance.
At the end of the day, yeah.
Of being intentional about thisis here and this is there an
acceptance.
But at the end of the day, thepattern here is these are the
same people, these are the samepeople.
You're, you're one person.
Yeah.
So it would be in some ways, Iguess ignorant to believe that
people can literally separate,separate the two.
So I think it's an importantaspect as an organization to be
(23:44):
just cognizant to that even ifthey're not shouting it out of
making sure that, you know, thephysiological, so what type of
food discussions that arehappening in the organization or
accessibility to food, whetherit's like making sure that we
value breaks and we value, youknow, have you eaten today?
Whether it comes from comedy ornot or, or offering potluck,
like just having those types ofthings a nd, and shelter in the
(24:06):
sense of the organization.
What type of environment is it?
Is O ur t hings all broken and uh, a nd despair and the t
oilet's not working all thesethings.
Or is this an environment wherepeople can feel comfortable in
and can feel as though that theyhave a shelter?
I'm thinking work-wise in termsof a shelter of, okay, this is a
comfortable space.
This is my space,
Owen (24:27):
so if intuitionally we can recognize that it is a safe
space and we have experiencesthat it is a safe space and we
trust our leaders that arecasting these visions of change.
I guess what does that do for anemployee or a person to want to
aspire to?
Kayla (24:45):
That change will be very much easier because you're
already having that bank in thatbrain of yours.
That's going to be thatshortcut, the shortcut of of, of
any challenge in thatenvironment because again, the
more time you spend in theenvironment, you'll have the
most influence.
So if that environment ispositive and challenging and
supportive and resilient andconsistent and all the nice
(25:07):
things, right, the positivestress, then no matter what
occurs in that environment, theperson's probably going to have
more instances of resilience andmore instances of feeling and so
they have a choice in the matterversus the toxic stress.
And feeling as though I'mpressured to change and I'm not
ready.
Hence going through thesepre-contemplation and all these
(25:28):
things and maybe staying stuckin them, which we call
ambivalence right, of, I know Ishould be going there, but I'm
still, I keep going the otherway.
Owen (25:36):
I've been in the, not necessarily work oriented, but
personally I know change isneeded, but I just don't know
where to go.
So you become ambivalent.
Kayla (25:44):
and that, and that bubbles into work just as much
to a certain spectrum.
If you feel very confident inthe work that you do, you may
not experience as much as thatas as in your personal life, but
at the end of the day, you'restill going to experience that
everything's on a spectrum andit's not always all or nothing.
We have to really pay attentionto where is it on the scale that
(26:05):
I feel that it's manageablebecause that's where true change
can occur.
Owen (26:10):
You know?
Just to go back to Kotter toright, just establishing that
sense of urgency.
So where depending where you areon that spectrum, you know,
whether I don't need to, I'mambivalent or oh my God,
something absolutely has tochange that.
Then it creates that motivationneeded to then start looking for
solutions that you become moreaware and then you can rely on
your experiences too.
Kayla (26:30):
or you become desperate and you'll and you cookie cut
it..accordingly.
Absolutely.
So it plays both sides.
So it's about the new try beingneutral, have you know that have
just, I guess it's all aboutjust reflective, like just ask
yourself the question like ifyour body is doing something
different than in this presentmoment, then just check in with
(26:51):
it.
I was like, okay, I've, I've allof a sudden I feel stressed out.
What am I doing and why?
Right.
And at that point then you canmake the informed decision of,
okay, you can choose to acceptit, let it go or do something
different.
Owen (27:05):
And really those are the three choices that you have in,
in, in really anything.
Yeah.
Kayla (27:09):
Yeah.
Please, please tell me I'mwrong.
Right.
I'd love to have a debate aboutthat.
These three choices are, there'smore than those three, but very
much so.
Owen (27:17):
We were on a topic earlier, we were just talking
about a, you know,organizationally and culturally,
uh, and you know, organizationalculture is such a big topic
today.
Um, I'd like to have you backhere and didn't just, I think
we're onto something there.
So, uh, I'm going to go back andlisten to that a little bit
more, but, uh, there arecertainly some, some, some, some
(27:38):
topics there that I think areworth exploring and, and, and
helping, uh, I guess peel thatback a little bit too.
Um, so, you know, you've changedcareers, you've changed, uh,
organizations in which youworked.
Uh, maybe you can talk a littlebit about some of the things
that you've experienced from achange perspective, making those
transitions, you know, whathappened in your life that you
(27:59):
decided a change needed to takeplace.
Um, you know, what was it liketo, and I, you know, I think we
can all relate to that.
You know, moving from one placeto another and just having a, uh
, a whole new world thrown ourway.
Kayla (28:12):
Absolutely.
Um, I think the most significantpiece here is transitioning or
the change of being an avid, uh,career woman and to
transitioning into being amother by choice.
Right.
I am cognizant that I'm, I'mprivileged in the sense that
I've, I made that intentionalchoice rather than it happened
(28:35):
or, or whatnot.
Um, so really that changed fromworking all the time and really
having the values of, of workand my contribution to society
and my community and being verypassionate about the things that
I do, uh, into shifting myintended values, uh, while still
doing the work that I'mpassionate about because my
(28:55):
passion is there.
So it's a very much a dilemmabetween the choice of, of the
value of, of family and, and ofworth there versus the worth
that I have as my other identityand making sure that all of my
identities have a, have a fairshare, that it's not just one,
that as soon as it's gone, it'slike, who am I?
Right?
But very much having thatbalance
Owen (29:15):
and your values probably don't change a whole lot between
these roles.
So there has to be some sort ofalignment as well.
But the beliefs change becausethat's where we, the, the, the
issues lies.
Not necessarily the valuesvalues change.
Uh, but for the most part,individuals values, including
mine, stay the same.
But the beliefs associated tothose values can change
depending on the environmentthat we're in.
(29:37):
So at one point, I know that,uh, I was creating my sort of a
space of a lot of stress formyself of thinking that I had to
choose between the two.
But really with reflection isthinking, well, no, I, I think
and I believe that I can createa space that both can, can
coexist in this world of mine.
Right?
So, um, it was really importantfor me to recognize that I am in
(30:00):
a position of, of privilegebecause I'm able to choose my
career to fit my values aroundmy daughter and my partner.
Not a lot of people have thoseopportunities.
And for those like, great.
So that that key piece isimportant to be reflective of
that and to be intentional aboutthat, that not everybody can
just right.
Make that choice.
Right.
And you know when you're facedwith change in either of those
(30:25):
situations, whether or notyou've chosen this career or
this is the career that justhappened to be there, the way
that you approach the changewith probably a little bit
different depending upon whereyou find yourself,
Kayla (30:37):
because the value might be different if the value is
about, or maybe the belief, ifthe belief is I need to do
whatever I need to do to befinancially safe, then sometimes
that may mean that people makechoices of entering into a type
of, I would say job because acareer is something that you
would be intentionallypassionate about, right?
To turn into a job that is inyour opinion, is awful.
(31:00):
You're stressed, you're unhappy.
This can result in to burnoutsbecause burnout is not always
about doing too much.
It could be also about not doingenough and not being challenged.
So you go into all these myriadsof different things.
So in my situation, I felt thatI was able to still be a
counselling therapist and to bethere as, as a parent, but that
(31:21):
also made a decision of whattype of work that I did previous
to that, that the work andenvironment that I was in did
not allow for that flexibility.
That I wasn't necessarily ableto, um, be actively involved
into the things that I waspassionate about, whether it be
mental health or, or food orsocial justice, et cetera.
(31:42):
Um, and also being able to, tobe there in a, in a, um,
Owen (31:48):
a larger capacity than....
Yeah.
And in a genuine capacity andintentional capacity, not just
doing the parent thing, butbeing definitely as a parent, I
know exactly what you're talkingabout.
It's, it's important and youdon't, when people talk about
that work life balance a, youknow, I think that might be what
we allude to is just having thatability to be more present in
(32:11):
one aspect of our life.
Um, and you know, not be, um,not be shunned.
Uh, and the other aspect, and Imean to me it, it works both
ways.
Like your family has to beaccepting that, you know, if, if
they, if something is reallyurgent at work and not
everything is urgent.
So you have to be making thosedecisions to existing and
(32:32):
coexisting.
We talked about that.
Or you're one person, right?
So being able to do, beingintentional
Kayla (32:36):
about it and when you're intentional about it, then
you're also being transparentabout it and you're having those
conversations instead ofreacting, you're, you're really
reflecting on that.
So, so it's not to think that,you know, in my situation that
or any type of situation is easyof, okay, you make that decision
and you go, that's not reallythe point here.
The point is, you know, will yougive yourself the permission to,
(33:01):
to learn and to interpretatethings differently.
Right?
Right.
So I could have taken that asthis is going to be a really
stressful situation and what amI going to do a, I guess I'm
going to have to just leave mywork and stay at home for the
rest of my life or whatever itmight be and and some and it is
a spectrum.
Some people, the choice is thatin this present moment that is a
(33:22):
choice that makes the mostsense, but it's also about what
is the learning here?
What is the learning that I canget from this, this pressure
that is being put upon me.
Right.
Because if you can learn fromit, then that, that's the key
piece of change.
Owen (33:38):
I love that.
I think that that makes so muchsense.
I mean it's the learning is thatexperience.
Absolutely.
We were talking about earlier.
Kayla (33:44):
because sometimes as we talked about change is
inevitable and sometimes theoutcomes are not always
favorable.
It's not about the outcome asmuch as it is a pote.
What did I learn from myself inthis experience?
Perhaps I learned, you know,better boundaries or better
management or you know, Ilearned a lot about myself.
Owen (34:05):
What I like about that is I think independent of the
result that you get from thechange, you can be a little bit
more forgiving of yourself.
Empathy, things don't go, yeah,empathy is fantastic right here.
Yeah.
Because you know, it's sometimesthe result is beyond your
control.
Even no matter how well-intendedyou were with the change plan.
(34:26):
Absolutely.
But if you're always looking forthat learning opportunity, what,
what, what really happened here?
What can I learn?
Um, I think we can be a littlebit more.
Kayla (34:34):
Than change will always be valuable to you and positive.
And it will create a space whereyou can actually ask yourself
and perhaps answer, you know,will you accept change
unconditionally as much as youcan put yourself in a, in a
space of, of accepting yourselfunconditionally.
Right.
Because again, change isinevitable as part of human.
(34:56):
I think that is part of one ofthe questions of what is the
purpose of life, right?
And the journey of, of change.
But it's, it's really about justthat unconditional acceptance
that you don't, you don't needto like it.
It's there will always bepresent, but can you change the
perspective of how am I seeingit?
So can I change the perceptionof this feels like a bad
(35:18):
situation, but can't I change itinto something neutral or
something positive?
It's all about our perspective.
Owen (35:25):
Mindset is big and absolutely what Jeff had said.
Uh, you know, it the whole liveto change or change to live.
I think that's why I reallyenjoyed that perspective is just
based around that.
And I mean we just touched onsome, some great mental health
components to all of this too.
Um, you know, ways of dealingwith the stress associated with
change.
(35:45):
And I think a lot of it has toboils down to that is just being
accepting of yourself and, and,and you know, the, the things
that are happening and you know,not getting caught up in the
results.
And, you know, being in thebusiness world, very results
oriented.
We want to see our actions equalthe results.
But again, you don't always getthe results that you're after,
especially with the externalenvironment always coming in
(36:09):
and, and you know, factoring inor influencing the, the, the
direction.
Kayla (36:13):
It's a mix, right?
It is.
It's a mix of internal andexternal.
If you're not on point that day,because let's say you had an
argument with your spouse or youdidn't sleep well or you might
have a cold or whatnot, youmight not be on your quote
unquote game.
Right?
So as much as the externalenvironment has an influence on
the decisions or the, thechanges that are there, there's
(36:36):
also the internal of where areyou at in that sense, you know,
do you feel that you are, youknow, you're at your best at
that point or are you ignoringall the signs because you have
this belief of I have to do, Ihave to succeed no matter what.
Right?
This extreme.
Owen (36:54):
And you know, when you're in that situation, you know,
yeah, the changes you're puttingin place are all, they all boil
down to decisions that you endup making.
Um, and you know, sometimesthose decisions are based around
habits.
Um, so are they intentionalalso?
Kayla (37:09):
Are they intentional?
Right, right.
He really goes down to thatbecause you're it and, and
sometimes I might have clientssay, am I didn't have a choice.
We always have choices.
But whether we're conscious ofthe choices is at a different
situation, right?
Because you're absolutely right.
If it's a habit, if it's allwe've known, then this automatic
sort of automatic or autopilothappens, right?
(37:30):
That is just, it very quicklygoes into that train of thought
and then we are compelled to,to, to react in that sense.
So when we actually create thatspace of, of just acceptance and
reflection, we just check in.
It doesn't mean that you know,you can't trust yourself just
that you have so much value foryourself that you want to make
(37:50):
sure that you make an informeddecision regardless of the
circumstances.
That's a good way of putting it.
It's just takingresponsibilities for,
Owen (37:56):
well then you can't take responsibility if you're, if
you're going to take that stepback and, and, and, and, and
make sure that you are aware
Kayla (38:03):
and you can own, own the consequences regardless whether
it's helpful or not.
Because if it ends up not beinghelpful, you'll have empathy
towards yourself as saying, youknow what, at least I tried and
this is what I learned from itand maybe I can do this
differently, but when we don'treally reflect on those things,
this fight, flight or freezehappens.
Right?
Right.
So that alarm goes off.
I'm either going to blamesomeone else, blame myself.
(38:26):
Right.
Or I'm going to just ignore thatit didn't happen.
Which we all know that even themonkeys that can't see, can't
hear, can't speak evil.
Evil is still there.
Owen (38:35):
Yeah.
And if you go into any of thosesituations too, just at a
reaction, you can't get intothat area of learning from what,
Kayla (38:44):
that's only the surface.
That's about 10% right.
Going back to the iceberg whenthe other 90% are actually what
influences at all?
Yeah, it does.
Owen (38:54):
You know, as a counseling therapist, you probably see a
lot of that and you try to helppeople understand that, mindset
right?
Kayla (39:01):
I actually have a picture of an iceberg behind, behind the
client's head so that it justsays a reminder that what I see
presently there, because I'm ahuman being too.
So sometimes their reactions andwhat they're saying Kinda shifts
away from me being intentionaland that iceberg allows me to
come back and be like, that'stheir 10%.
(39:21):
So creating that sense ofacceptance and of empathy so
that I can go back and have morereflective and profound
questions to help them seektheir answer.
Right?
So it plays two ways in the, onthe therapeutic side of things.
Owen (39:36):
That's wonderful.
I mean it is such a great topichere.
Really appreciate you coming inand sharing, uh, your
perspectives on this and yourideas and, and sharing some of
the research that you've donebehind this.
Uh, you've got a wealth ofknowledge to share.
I'd like to explore other topicswith you, so I look forward to
having you come back in and, andshare with us.
Kayla (39:57):
Absolutely.
And thank you so much for havingme.
This has been an, uh,intellectually and interesting
conversation.
Owen (40:04):
It's great.
It's always fun.
I always enjoy my conversationswith you.
Um, you have a website.
Absolutely.
Uh, do you wanna go ahead.
Kayla (40:10):
www.Breelove.ca uh, and it's for Breelove Counselling
and we also have a communitycounselling program where we
make sure that we provide accessto mental health services, uh,
free of charge for those thatare in need.
Owen (40:24):
That's, that's, it's a wonderful service.
And you know, mental health is a, a certainly a, a big component
to our wellbeing.
So thank you for doingeverything that you do to help
those in our community that needto, you know, find that level of
comfort with themselves and withtheir, with their environments.
So really, really appreciate howit is health, right?
Health.
It's w and we talk about this as, you know, that whole
(40:48):
perspective, uh, the wholenessof it all.
So influential, it all impactsone another.
As you mentioned, the, uh, thephrase ripple effect earlier
during a, one of ourconversations prior to us
talking today.
So, yeah, it's all influential.
So again, thank you for, forsharing your thoughts and
perspectives and look forward toour next conversation.
Great.
Take care.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.