April 23, 2023 • 52 mins
Dealing with online trolls can be challenging, but here are some strategies you can use:
- Don't engage: Trolls often thrive on attention, so it's best not to engage with them. Avoid responding to their comments or messages, and don't give them the satisfaction of knowing that they have affected you.
- Block or mute: If the troll continues to harass you, consider blocking or muting them. This will prevent them from being able to interact with you on the platform.
- Report the behavior: Most social media platforms have reporting features that allow you to report abusive or harassing behavior. Use these features if the troll's behavior violates the platform's terms of service.
- Take a break: If dealing with online trolls is affecting your mental health, it's okay to take a break from social media or step away from the situation. Remember that your mental health and well-being are more important than engaging with trolls.
- Use humor: If the troll's behavior is not too harmful or abusive, you can try responding with humor or sarcasm. This can help diffuse the situation and show that you're not affected by their behavior.
- Seek support: Talk to friends, family, or a therapist about the situation. Having a support system can help you cope with the stress of dealing with online trolls.
Down the Rabbit Hole is recorded live every Wednesday at 8pm EST on Twitter Spaces. Follow twitter.com/elev8dmedia to get notified of each upcoming episode.
Down the Rabbit Hole is a podcast for creators hosted by Moorph (youtube.com/Moorph) and TyFloRen (https://www.twitch.tv/tyfloren) and talks about deeper topics that effect the streaming and content creation industry. Whether you make content on Twitch, YouTube, Facebook, Tiktok, or others, we'll have a topic that affects you.
If you have questions, comments, or suggestions for future episodes, send an email to downtherabbithole@elev8d.media
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Follow the steps that you feel are going to work
to diffuse the situation and toget people to at least
understand the other portion'spoint of view, even if they're
not going to agree with it.
And doing so in a calm,professional, adult-like manner,
involving only people that needto be involved, I think is going
to be the best case scenario foreverybody.
(00:21):
Welcome to Down the Rabbit Hole,podcast for creators with
Typhloen and myself.
Tonight we're going to betalking about how to navigate
difficult social mediainteractions, navigating, you
know, trolling, all that kind ofstuff.
Backlash, I believe it had thetitle.
It's a it's an issue.
(00:41):
Before we get into that, Ty FloRen, how are you?
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Uh, doing very well.
And our intentions for tonight'spodcast are to provide
guidelines and etiquette whenapproaching difficult subject
matters in the creator space,and to bring awareness to this
fact as well.
Um, something that we shouldnote right off the bat is there
will be times someone may give ahot take, bring up a sensitive
(01:07):
subject.
And ideally, we would we shoulddebate in a respectful and
logical manner.
I'll just bluntly say that mostof us here in the streamer space
are grown adults, and um I feellike we should be able to like
easily talk one-on-one in aroundtable discussion about some
(01:28):
of these sensitive subjects oreven hot takes.
Uh, something that to help younavigate better would be what is
the importance of using like thecorrect tone.
I was actually um posting thisin um the comment section right
now, too, and specifically toadd context to this question of
a past tweet that I saw fromyou, Morph, um, was addressing
(01:51):
uh like how important tone isand making sure that context is
needed.
Um, I don't remember thespecific creator that you were
speaking to, Al.
And also as a side note, I willdo my best to omit um certain
creator names, like especiallythose who have dropped hot takes
in the past before when it comesto content creation or
(02:12):
streaming.
But your explanation on uh umwhy he was asking why context
matters um was spot on.
I really liked how you saidspecifically that uh you want to
make sure that your tone getsacross and what you're saying
doesn't uh get taken the wrongway or twisted out of
(02:32):
proportion.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Yeah, I'm glad you remember it because I don't.
Um, but that that's a very validpoint.
And it's it's difficult, right?
We we've known this forever.
As long as we've been typingonline, it's it's difficult to
get tone from text.
So it requires extra effort,which a lot of people just don't
(02:53):
put in.
Um, it requires you to reallythink through what you're saying
and your word choice.
Um, I know that I I've seentweets from you about uh recent
topics where you I can tell youhave deliberated over every word
that you were putting in atweet.
I do the same thing because weknow how easy it is for someone
(03:15):
else to take it out of context.
Um, or sometimes you can beperfect, and you have folks like
myself who have a tendency to,even though I'm very sarcastic
when I'm talking and I make alot of jokes about around like
that, I tend to take things thatpeople say and things that I
read literally.
So as sarcastic as my brain is,um, I don't always see it when
(03:39):
I'm reading text.
So if you say something, I mightjust think you're actually just
being a jerk when you're tryingto be funny, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Exactly.
Um, and uh let's let me uh readuh Shell's response here to make
a clear message since everythingcan be misunderstood and turn to
something that's not, um andthis ties into very much what
you just brought up too.
Um and I'll even uh open upabout this and say that my most
(04:09):
recent tweet regarding the newum Hogwarts Legacy Harry Potter
game, when I asked a specificquestion to the trans community,
to the trans community, I askedit because I wanted to bring
awareness and light uh to thisissue.
And uh I did my best to be asdeliberate and in full support.
(04:32):
I even made a follow-up tweetsaying that in good faith, I
specifically myself am notbuying the game because I do a
uh have I do want tospecifically support friends
within the trans community.
Um and I will admit that therewas still there was some
backlash, oh not necessarilybacklash, but pushback on um my
(04:54):
question too.
One of my friends, uh, we had arespectful, lengthy talk as
well, where he said, here's thequestion that you and others
should be asking.
And uh at the end, he said thathe was explaining at length why
uh um himself and a few otherswere like in a defensive tone,
(05:17):
and that uh he wasn'tnecessarily attacking me, but uh
trying to give the fullexplanation and picture.
And uh and we're still uh uhgood friends to this day, too.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Yeah.
It's it's always interestingwhen the hot take involves um
again.
The attention here is not tofocus on marginalized groups,
but I just want to use thisexample.
It's when you're talking aboutwhen your hot take or your tweet
or whatever it is, yourinteraction involves some sort
of marginalized group, whetherit's the BIPOC community,
(05:49):
LGBTQIA plus, um, or whateverthe community is.
Um you're gonna find people inthose respective communities who
also take things different ways.
Um there, you know, I I had Bon,I think it was uh I don't
remember exactly what thecontext was, but I had um oh you
(06:09):
it's the thing you had sent me,Tytla Ren, on on Twitter uh
Discord the other day, wherethere was somebody who was in a
um, I believe the BIPOCcommunity was really upset about
the notion that you can't put nopolitics as a tag because it
made them feel that it wasn't asafe space because the person
(06:32):
wasn't allowing discourse on aparticular thing.
And I read that and um I had Imean also being somebody who is
uh mixed race said I completelydisagree with that.
I completely disagree with itbecause um when I am in some
streams, I do I use it as anescape, I do not want to talk
(06:56):
about certain topics, you know.
So they were very aggressive inhow they were presenting their
case, and I chose, you know, youyou said fortunately you sent me
a screenshot or I might havereplied responded, but you know,
there were some less thanpleasant responses to that, you
know.
So it's it's a difficult thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
I will admit too, adding to um your last point, I
have seen mutuals come intothose kinds of conversations,
like giving their like verylengthy takes, and also um uh
even like confronting it and atunfortunately at times uh like
becoming at conflict with likeseveral other mutuals that we
(07:40):
share together too.
Um and I just remember when Isent you that, um, your response
I 100% agreed with all yourpoints there.
Um and I think that's the thingtoo, is like uh when it comes
down to it, we I see uh Twitchstreams as like personal TV
(08:01):
production.
Um it is your show, you have torun it how you want how you see
fit, really.
Um almost like I this may not belike the correct terminology to
use, but like Laissez-Fare,where it's like uh it's like me
having like my hands off of yourproduction because I don't want
because at the end of the day,it is uh like your creation,
(08:23):
it's something you should takepride in.
And uh while I could see some oflike the points that that
creator was making with like uhum being upset with no politics,
I think that that's that j thatshould lead to a round table
discussion of like finding acompromise by saying like, oh
hey, uh some of us can say likeuh we uh do allow some talk
(08:47):
about politics, but keep it atat a minimum.
At least uh that's what I seefor myself, because while I will
address um certain politicalissues, I do also realize that
there are some people within uhmy community that want that like
you like you yourself want touse it as an escape.
(09:07):
So uh I've uh there's certainsegments of my Twitch stream
where like I'll open it up todiscussion, but then after that
time is up, we uh go back tolike whatever conversation we
had previously.
And uh and also like for mepersonally, it's giving the time
of day for everyone that wantsthat wants to like speak about
(09:28):
something on their mind, notjust favoring a political
statement from a one viewer assomeone who tries to compromise
between um two uh like twoparties or more, or if you're
someone who's confrontationaland trying to press your point
and trying to get at people tosee your side, or are you
(09:49):
someone that which I'll admit tolike myself most recently this
week and the past few weeks,I've been more of someone who's
like on the sidelines, who'saware of uh the conflicts
between streamer mutuals, butalso someone who doesn't want to
get involved.
Um, as much as I you know dolike mediating between friends,
(10:10):
a lot of like um the topics andsensitive subjects uh the past
week or so have been difficultto approach, which is why I've
uh I'll admit I've been someonewho has been on the sideline and
you know just watching.
SPEAKER_00 (10:28):
Yeah, so I have historically been someone who is
uh conflict adverse.
Um I just I've always liked tobe, as odd as it might sound,
I've always looked to be apeople pleaser, and I just did
not feel comfortable um withconflict.
My couple of years here doing umcontent creation has turned that
(10:51):
around for me because we are uhwe are attacked con at least in
my personal experience, um Ihave been attacked constantly
for everything, and it gets topull up to a point where I
cannot just sit idly by and letit sit.
(11:12):
So I don't really know that Iget in the count in the position
as a mediator where I um want tohelp both sides see eye to eye.
If it if there was truly a casewhere both people were were
saying a similar thing and theyreally just needed someone to
word it differently for eachparty so that they could realize
(11:35):
they differ had this thedifferences they thought they
did, I would actually do that.
The problem is that um that'snot usually the case.
Usually there is somebody who isjust way off base.
And I I know, and because Iusually focus when I focus on
controversial topics like theones I mentioned earlier, I tend
(11:59):
to take a very hard stance onpeople that are disrespecting
you know whatever community itis that we're talking about, and
I guess I do get a little bitconfrontational.
Um right, you know, so I I it'sit's not my preferred method is
to to be confrontational, butyou know, I feel like like one
(12:23):
thing that was said a lot, aphrase that I I like is you
know, to to be sound is to becomplicit.
So when we're talking aboutcertain topics, I I keep that in
mind.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
Right, and I think that's the thing too.
Um is I came up with a follow-upquestion for this.
Um let's see, I just posted itin chat.
Um, if there are two mutualcreator friends at odds over a
thread or some kind of other subspecific subject, how would you
approach it?
(12:51):
Um, I know you said that you arenowadays more confrontational.
Would you be confrontationalwith both parties?
Um uh depending on what thesubject is.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Yeah, the same way that I say that I I treat
everybody the same, whetheryou're it's your first day
streaming or whether you're uhuh a famous creator, um, I don't
care.
Um if you if I'm friends of twopeople and one of them is off
base, I will let them know thatthey are off base.
(13:25):
Um and if they truly aresomebody that is is a friend, we
have a common understanding,then they will see my point and
they will have an open mind andwe can enter into a dialogue.
Um but I'm not gonna try to, Iam I'm no longer the person
that's gonna try to appease bothsides, which that you know that
(13:48):
that change in my personalityover the having been in doing
contacts for a couple yearsmakes like the topic of this of
this episode makes it difficultfor me to just avoid things,
which I don't know is always theright answer, anyway, in my
opinion.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
And I think that's the thing too is like there's no
cookie-cutter answer um uh tosome of these questions that
we're posing right now.
And I did not post this yet, butum, I guess it's another
follow-up question.
Is it possible to mediate most,if not all, arguments?
Um, granted that I know there'ssome people out there that uh
(14:27):
like myself would rather stay onthe sideline or um would uh like
would like be confrontationaland biased to like one side or
the other.
Um and I think let's see.
What I I guess that's thequestion that I have for you in
chat is like can most, if notall, arguments um be mediated in
(14:52):
some form or another?
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
Um I don't know if I can give it if I can can give it
a quantity, you know, if I canquantify it like that in terms
of most or some.
I think it it really depends onit, you know.
Um here's you know, given anissue that I had a couple weeks
ago, which is still annoying tobring up, but there was a number
(15:16):
of people that were um unhappywith me about the way that I
asked or what I was asking forhere on Twitter.
And most people were veryaggressive and rude about how
they were they were approachingme.
And you know, I made somemissteps, I guess, before where
I was sarcastic back to them andand that didn't go over well
(15:40):
with somebody who already wasemotional, um, you know, the
other party, but then there werea few of them that were DMing me
privately or they wereresponding very logically and
matter of fact.
So in it it depends on not justreally the topic, but the
emotional state of the otherperson.
(16:02):
So if you find yourself in asituation where someone is
really coming at you, or you seesomeone going after someone else
that you know, or or whether youdon't know them, the first
things you really want to try todo, in my opinion, this is work
not just on online interactions,but you know, as somebody who
has managed people for 20 years,um you need to get people to
(16:23):
calm down.
Um, however, you do I'm somebodywho tends to use humor to do
that, and it's worked veryeffectively throughout my entire
life.
Um, but whatever it is, you needpeople to calm down and get to a
point where they can startthinking logically again,
because when you're thinkingthrough anger or whatever that
(16:45):
that emotion is going to be, youdon't see things um in a way
that's gonna allow you to have aproductive dialogue.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
Right.
And I think that's uh that's uhlike the hook right there is to
think logically about some ofthese um hot takes or like
sensitive subjects.
I I really liked how you addedlogic in there because I think
like it's that's the thing too,is a lot of these uh topics uh
(17:15):
are set on emotion or likeemotionally charged, as we were
talking about before our livestream.
Um and I think to tie into thatas well is like what if someone
were to accuse you of siding itwith one side or being biased
and like how would you go aboutthat using logic?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Um if someone were to accuse me of doing that, you
know, it it it sound I woulddefend what I what what my
viewpoint was.
Um I like to I like to I thinkI've said this a number of
times.
I try to see both sides of anargument, you know, um before I
(17:57):
weigh in with my opinion.
Sometimes I get emotional too.
Um, as you've seen, I have afreaking segment called More
France, so yeah, I do getemotional too.
But I try to see both sides ofan argument and weigh which
seems to be the most logical.
Sometimes it's cut and dry,sometimes it's not.
You know, if somebody is uhunhappy with my decision or
(18:19):
which side that I'm picking,then I will ask them to explain
why they feel that way, andmaybe there is something that I
missed when I was analyzing thesituation.
I just don't always like to besomeone that sits on the fence,
and you know, because we don'tusually do that in life.
We pick one or the other, and sothat's how I approach it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Alright.
Um, Shell had some responses toa few of our questions here.
Shell says, I'm more of amediator because all I see when
people get very confrontational,people get very toxic.
Um, I had and I have been apeople pleaser all my life and
avoided conflict.
But now I'm seeing more and morepeople getting doxxed and
(19:02):
unalive threats because they gotattacked.
Right.
Um, that la the last few pointsthere, those are very um, I
guess, like un unfortunatelythey're common within the
creator and streamer space.
Um, and I think that's brave ofyou, Shell, to act as that
mediator and to be that voice ofreason and person of logic.
(19:26):
Um, like more mentioned earlier,using whatever method uh
possible to calm both sidesdown.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
Yeah.
So, like the first thing youneed to be had, in my opinion, I
again I'm not a trainedprofessional.
This is what I do and what hasworked for me.
Um, is I try to defuse asituation, and then you can get
both sides to sort of startstating their case and work
(19:55):
through it.
If one side or both sides refuseto get out of that
hyper-emotional state, it's it'sbest to just walk away or have
them walk away until they can dothat.
You know, there's you're notit's nothing is gonna be
productive, you're going backand forth.
And when somebody escalatestheir attacks to doxing, can be
(20:17):
very dangerous for some peopleor really life-altering, or they
start put putting you know, umunaliving threats or our wishes
or hopes, that's when it's goneto a new level, and you need to
treat it much more seriously andand and take more drastic
measures.
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Right.
Um, and speaking of, oh, hangon.
I think I was scrolling throughand I saw another response from
Shell.
It uh let's see which response,let's which question?
Oh, right.
Uh, this was in response to myquestion of if two mutual
creator friends are at odds overa thread, how do you approach
it?
And Shell specifically said itdepends.
(20:59):
Main approach is to be kind andwise in your way to talk uh to
people, um, even more wise andkind towards people you disagree
with.
And I think that's the thing,too, is like it really is easier
said than done to um be open tohearing the opposing side um to
see and uh have some sort ofempathy, like where they are
(21:23):
coming from as well.
Um, and to maybe not fully agreewith them, but also um let's
see, like, oh hey, I can kind Ican understand like a few of
these the points that could bevalid, um, and then from there
on like coming to some kind oflike mutual agreement or like uh
(21:44):
for lack of of like a betterdescription, like peace treaty
or some kind of like truce.
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
What is you know uh your common tactic when uh I
know you said that you know youyou tend to appease both sides,
but do you ever get to a pointwhere you feel the need to
defend yourself?
And it's not just for Shell, butit could be for anybody who's
listening, where you find theneed to defend yourself and you
go more on the offensive, or areyou somebody that tends to hang
(22:10):
back more?
Um take your time in answeringthat.
It's up to you.
What is so what is your style inon dealing with conflict?
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
That is a very it's a very um specific um uh
strategy.
I guess it goes that's the thingtoo, is like it's a case by
case, um and usually when itcomes to mediating, um, I try to
this may s uh come off as alittle it's a questionable
(22:38):
strategy, but also like it's thesafest one too, is to let both
sides kind of uh make theircases, plead their cases, and
then to essentially like letthem let both sides eventually
vent and to uh pick or like pickapart uh both uh sides like uh
see which ones are valid too,and then also try to like not
(23:03):
necessarily interject myself,but to come in and say, Hey, I
see X party as like saying this,but uh I can like under s let's
let's like uh highlight thesepoints that uh they're making,
but then also let's uh let'salso hear like some of yours and
highlight them too.
And then like based off of likeuh what each side is saying and
(23:26):
what I can pick apart, trying toor like coming up with some sort
of like middle ground,essentially, like that that
essentially addresses and uh uheven like answers like some of
uh some of the those points.
SPEAKER_00 (23:40):
If you're if you're arguing one side of a dispute,
you have reasons why you feelthat your side is correct, or
your your take is correct, andwhy this side is um correct
versus the other side.
So whatever it is, you those areyour logical reasons.
So you simply need to be able toto state them.
(24:03):
And assuming that the situationis no longer emotionally
charged, you once you startexplaining yourself and reason
with with sound arguments,again, this is a little bit
difficult without having anexample in mind.
I think you would you would beable to refute it, you know.
Um and I guess if the questionis do you want A or B, and you
(24:24):
say B, I guess everyone wouldall somebody would inevitably
say you're biased.
Well, yeah, I'm biased because Bis the right choice, you know, B
is this, B is that.
And I don't think I'm making anysense right now, but in my head
I know what I'm trying to say.
You you you need to be able tosay the reasons why you're
supporting one side.
You can't just say because,because I have a gut feeling.
(24:48):
There needs to be more thanthat.
If that is your reasoning, ifthat is your logic at that
point, you need to think aboutit more thoroughly.
There have to be reasons why youfeel one way or another.
You might not be able toarticulate them very well.
So honestly, maybe be a littlebit quiet until you can figure
that out.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
Absolutely.
And and I'm glad you and I seeeye to eye on that, where um
when uh I was like providinglike my strategy, I I like how
you and I are the kinds ofpeople who while we do try to
like step in and mediate, um,we're also the kinds of people
that that like let both partieslike kind of hash it out or not
(25:31):
necessarily hash it out, but tobut to plead their cases and
like not jump in too early umbefore like uh any before either
side can uh um get their pointsacross.
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yeah.
Um and when you're in thosesituations too, you know, like
everything you just said isaccurate.
If you find that you'reemotional, don't respond right
away.
If you respond too quickly, it'svery impulsive, and most likely
you're gonna come off whetheryou intend to or not, sometimes
you intend to, as rude oroffensive or sarcastic or
(26:06):
whatever, and that is not gonnahelp the situation.
Do not come off and um makepersonal attacks, do not come
off and you know mock the otherperson in in any way, even if
that is what they're doing toyou.
Um, I'm not gonna say I believein the philosophy of turning you
the cheek, but sometimes killingthem with kindness is is does
(26:26):
help.
And another thing too is whenthey're very emotionally
charged, if you are not, if youcan can keep your composure and
speak rationally back tosomebody who is just attacking
you, and this actually works, inmy opinion, better in person
than it does um over uh you knowtyped interactions, then they
(26:49):
will, in in my experience, beginto calm down because they can
see that you're calm and theyrealize how they must look.
And and they will try to changetheir demeanor.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Uh going back to what you were saying too,
specifically about um like notresponding with anger or with
emotion, um, I'll open up to youand our listeners tonight and
say that recently on streamerTikTok, um, like for bad story
and context, I was saying uh uha creator was asking, did
(27:23):
streaming ruin gaming?
Um, and my response was uh notnecessarily within um the RPG
streamer community, and uh I waslike giving points about like
how um it brought peopletogether actually.
And a commenter, I won't uh listtheir name, specifically said
(27:44):
that oh those RPG uh streamers,like they uh they're not
necessarily streamers, they'relet's players.
It did it did kind of rub me thewrong way, like I'll just
playing out say that.
Um, and I had to take a stepback uh um before responding in
uh d in anger or defensively.
(28:05):
Um because uh I'll admit some ofmy close streamer friends like
primarily stream RPGs orstory-based games.
Um another mutual friend of minecame in and uh they asked uh
like follow-up questions, whichI will say like were asked like
very um logically, and also um Ieven private messaged them say
(28:30):
because I know they were RPGstreamers too, and saying, hey,
I'm sorry that this commentercame into um my video and said
these things.
I and then I specifically toldthem that the reason I was not
responding was because I wastrying to come up with logical
explanations as to why um themsaying that RPG players are not
(28:53):
streamers and that it wasessentially gatekeeping.
Um they the friend that I was uhlike messaging privately like
understood they weren't offendedthemselves, but they were happy
that I was trying to come upwith ways to stand up for uh uh
streamers who play RPG uh gamesand like and to essentially
(29:14):
validate them in the streamingspace.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
Yeah, so it's it's interesting when you brought up
that specific example.
I know which one this was, andthis ties into something you had
asked earlier when two friendswere having a disagreement, and
there have been severalinstances over the last week or
so where people that I amfriends with have also attacked
some things that you've beensaying, and I don't remember how
(29:37):
what my answer was earliertonight, but I'm thinking my
first instinct was oh, I'm justgonna step back for a second
because I don't want to pisseither side off, you know,
because like I understood wherethey were coming from, but I
also understood your question,your your take on it too.
And but it wasn't a case whereyou two were saying the same
thing, they really did have adifferent opinion.
(29:58):
Now, one thing that I Will addto this um when you're looking
at the two sides, is the sameway that I tend to look at
things very literally.
I interpret things differentsometimes than other people do.
You know, I have ADHD.
I do not believe I'm on the umany kind of autism spectrum, but
(30:21):
that we we there are plenty ofpeople who are that we interact
with on a regular basis, andpeople who have some sort of
neurodivergency are are going tointerpret things and see things
differently.
The way that they respond tothem might be a very well
thought out, rational uhresponse, but it may not have
come through that way in tone,whether that's a video they're
(30:45):
reply they're doing or whetherit's in text.
And I think it's important totry to understand people and try
to understand their perspectivewhen you see those kind of
responses and and ask clarifyingquestions that aren't defensive
in nature, that aren't offensivein nature, and just to just to
(31:05):
say, hey, can you I'm not surequite sure I was following you.
Can you repeat that?
When I have taken that tacticbefore, um, usually people will
reiterate what they were sayingin some way that I do
understand.
Um, occasionally they they thinkthat I'm trolling them and they
get more upset, but that's atactic to try to take too.
SPEAKER_01 (31:27):
For a follow-up question that I have uh for you
and our listeners is in theaftermath of uh conflicts, um
when things have hopefullycooled down between both
parties, how do you go aboutreaching out to those involved,
specifically like the twoindividuals that uh had the most
involvement in it?
(31:49):
Would you uh go about itprivately or public or make a
public uh statement on uh eithereither or?
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
I would never do it publicly, ever.
I have worked in many places,not many places, I have worked
in places before where a seniorperson would go after somebody
else publicly, it never worksout, it demoralizes the person
(32:18):
who's being attacked, and it itdestroys the morale in the
workplace.
Now, applying that to this, it'sthe same thing.
So when I had the situationwhere I was being publicly
attacked, and you know, thingsthat I do were being attacked,
it was there was levels ofembarrassment, there was levels
(32:39):
of just I felt like the weightof the world on me, you know
what I mean?
And it was very difficult.
So there was a person who uhlater on in those exchanges, a
person who I was having abackforth with it was very
polite and very adult, like, buteven at the end of that, it just
kept dragging on.
I'm like, why isn't this just aconversation?
(33:01):
So I just reached out to them, Ididn't know them, but I just
reached out to them, like, canwe just talk instead of going
back and forth?
You know, so there's not alwaysa real reason, in my opinion, to
drag something that could beprivate public.
I I do not see the point in it.
Some people do it because I wantto teach them a lesson, like
(33:23):
maybe the other person is trulyin the wrong.
Why do you need to publiclyhumiliate somebody though?
Like, what what's the value inthat?
I especially if it's if it'smaybe if it's a legal case and
you want to make sure thatpeople understand how shitty of
a person they are.
I I I guess maybe, but if it'snot anything that is illegal or
(33:45):
harming somebody, and you'rejust out there to destroy them
for whatever reason, what's thepoint?
SPEAKER_01 (33:52):
And I think that's the thing too.
Um, something that really caughtmy attention uh from what you
were saying, um, was why can'twe make this a conversation?
I think one of the takeawaysthat I hope anyone who's
listening um uh tonight isconversation over conflict.
Um, and this ties back to whatboth of you uh both of us, what
(34:15):
we were saying at the beginning,um is that let's be honest, all
of us here on streamer Twitter,streamer TikTok are grown adults
and we should quote unquote beacting like it too.
Um that means like like what yousaid, making it into a
conversation, um, sitting downand having a roundtable
(34:36):
discussion with like between thelike the two of us or like with
mutuals too to like hash thingsout.
And ideally that's essentiallywhat should happen instead of
like a lot of vicious back andforth from what I've been seeing
on streamer Twitter um this pastweek.
Yeah, and it's always for ourviewers too.
If you want to like if you youwant to share any examples, like
(34:58):
you can omit names like howMorph and I have been omitting
them too.
It's not an obligation, but umit is appreciated to like hear
from your perspectives as well.
SPEAKER_00 (35:11):
And if you're listening to this later on a
podcast and you have a commenton this, honestly, you can reach
out to either one of us onTwitter um and and and send us a
DM or send us uh just just tweetus and um we can definitely
start a conversation with you.
But no, I I absolutely agreewith you.
(35:32):
Um in fact, it's it's kind ofchanging my mindset right now
and how I want to deal withfuture situations when you know
um I am attacked if I can feelthat I'm emotional, whether it's
defensive or I'm just angry, totake a moment and not respond
right away until I feel I'mcalmed down, sort of like you
(35:52):
said earlier.
And then when I do am ready tohave a conversation, when I am
ready to respond to the person,I think my new tactic going
forward will be to DM them,understanding that they will
probably screenshot it.
So just don't think thatanything you say is private, but
just come with that same adultlevel of professionalism and a
(36:15):
DM as well.
But if you can invite them to aDiscord call or whatever to
actually just talk about it soyou can remove any of the
dangers of there beingmisinterpreted um tone in your
in your what you wrote, um, Ithink something like that would
be beneficial.
Now, what you're gonna find outthough is a lot of people aren't
gonna want to engage in that.
I remember a situation this pastsummer where I had um one of my
(36:42):
uh toxic gender and gaming umpodcasts on Twitch, and posting
clips led to a lot of toxiccomments on TikTok, very vicious
tock comments on TikTok, to thepoint where I uh was responding
angrily back to many of these.
(37:02):
And at one point I invitedanyone who who felt that that
way they did, truly felt it, tocome to stream and I would give
them the floor and we would talkabout it.
And and not to my surprise, onlytwo people took me up on it, and
(37:22):
even then they decided to changetheir tone at the last minute
because they knew they would getcalled out because their their
views were so horrible.
But talking it out, I think, canbe better than trying to engage
publicly sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
Right, and sometimes I think we'll through private
messages as well, like peoplehave that comfort to like open
up more or to at least um likewhat we said too, instead of
like acting uh rashly andemotionally, like calm down and
say, like, oh hey, now that wedon't have like eyes on us, um
(37:59):
like uh uh I want to like I wantto like come off as someone that
uh wants that doesn't want tolike seem like I'm attacking
you.
There was a last minutequestion.
Oh, before I forget, I just sawanother response from Shell
here.
In experiences, uh this it uhconsidering doing a video about
(38:21):
it, uh the Hogwarts legacy game,where players are getting
attacked because the authors arevery harmful, have very harmful
comments, and you try and goanother route with being verbal.
Uh let's see, I think I'm alsogetting just got another message
from Shell here and supporttowards the trans community.
Um, if you play the game and notletting a person who wants to
(38:43):
take away rights ruin stuff foreveryone, putting friends
against friends is ripping apartthe community instead of uh
getting stronger and essentiallytry to show the world we don't
agree with her.
That's another thing too, iswith the um the Hogwarts legacy
game, I've I know uh like you,myself, and uh creators within
(39:04):
uh your mentorship program,we've had a very lengthy, well
multiple lengthy talks aboutthis too.
And uh yes, I I do agree with uhwhat Shell is saying here.
And like to show that we standwith marginalized groups with
the trans community, and then Ithink that's the thing too, is
like it's this is like adifficult subject for us to
(39:27):
tackle, really, because like wes we clearly do stand with
marginalized groups, it's justuh that we also need to
understand that not everyone whoactually does play the games
like is like anti-trans or likefor lack of a better word.
SPEAKER_00 (39:44):
Right, right.
Um, and I think uh a lot of itcan come down to who you may
know personally and how theyfeel.
You know, if you have a friendwho is trans and they said that
it it hurts them, honestly, evenif you can't relate, then maybe
maybe don't play it.
You know, you know what I mean?
It really comes down to to thatsometimes because it's it's hard
(40:07):
to put yourself, not everybodyhas a lot of empathy, and a lot
of people, a lot of people don'thave a lot of empathy, and it's
very difficult for sometimes forpeople to truly put themselves
in someone else's shoes.
So while you or I may not seesomething as a big deal, it
might truly be a big deal to tosomebody else.
(40:28):
And if you find that that is um,if you can understand that, then
you know it'll make yourdecision on which direction you
want to go easier.
But you know, practice empathy,try to put yourself in someone
else's shoes, even when they areum attacking you, if they're
(40:53):
attacking you, you know, try tounderstand the place that
they're coming from, and thatmight help you understand their
point of view.
And if you can understand theirpoint of view, and this is tying
it back where I said thebeginning, then that will allow
you to respond to them in a waythat they will probably
understand as you'rere-explaining your position on
(41:16):
it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
And before um we uh before I uh say anything um to
support your points, um, I justuh noticed this message from
Dominique.
Discussions are okay, but andwhen it starts to get nasty, it
needs to stop.
And I fully agree with whatDominique says, where we have to
be self-aware, not just ascreators, but as like mature
(41:39):
adults and like kind of likenotice accused of like when uh
like uh when uh like ourdiscussions like turn into
arguments which turn into likejust blatant hurtful comments,
um that's when we need to likeuh cut it off or like uh um stop
that threatened conversation andthen maybe come back, refresh uh
(42:03):
more logical, and then say like,hey, I know what I said and what
or what you said um uh was likehurtful or like wasn't uh
necessarily relevant to like theconversation that was originally
intended, but like let's startagain.
SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
No, you you're correct.
There does come a point in aconversation where you can have
the best of intentions, you canclearly see their side, you have
uh a tactic, strategy in mind tobe able to relay your point to
them, but they refuse forwhatever reason, or maybe they
are incapable of gettingthemselves out of the emotional
(42:42):
state that they're in, theelevated emotional state that
they're in.
And in that case, it it needs tobe set aside.
Do not try to force yourrationality, your logic onto
someone who is not ready to getto that point.
You need to understand when it'stime to walk away a little bit.
I'm not saying you don't comeback and revisit it, because if
(43:04):
you don't, you're just leavingan open wound.
But sometimes you need time andit's important to recognize
that.
I have seen too many people whosay, No, I know what the problem
is and I can fix it.
It's like you need to back off alittle bit until they're ready
to hear it because anything yousay will be lost.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Um, and that's the thing, too, is like because for
many of us, this is um like aprofession, a side job, anything
that you uh say that's harmfulcould be used as like defamation
of character, like potentiallegal actions could be against
you um or anyone else that triesto uh like uh to put it bluntly,
(43:44):
slander another creator's name.
SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
Yeah.
And you you raise a good pointthat I hadn't really it was uh
an argument or uh line I wasthinking of going down, but
we're talking about contentcreators here, whether you're a
podcaster, whether you'resomeone who posts on mostly on
social media, whether you're astreamer, youtuber, whatever it
is, you're a content creator whois trying to provide some value
(44:12):
to make people happier, whetheryou're gaming, whether you're
doing educational, whetherwhatever it is, whatever you're
doing, you're trying to makepeople smile, trying to give how
educate them, whatever it is.
And when you find yourself in asituation where emotions are
high, you're not able to dothat.
(44:33):
It's best to remember thepurpose of what you're doing and
not let the negativity of asituation overshadow that.
So if you need to back stepaway, if you need to ignore it,
if you need to go away, that'swhat you should do because
otherwise you're going toovershadow what you're doing
with that negativity.
(44:54):
And to give you one quickexample, again, of my one of my
most recent um that most recentissue.
I wanted to keep going back andforth to people when they kept
going at me.
I really truly did.
It was so I was uh upset by thesome of the things they were
saying, but I was more upset atthe fact that I knew I couldn't
(45:17):
go back at them because Iwouldn't have been nice, I
wouldn't have been nice, and butI knew it was for for the best
of my brand image and future youknow partnership perspective for
me to to stand down.
And it you have to understandyou have to have that
(45:39):
self-control sometimes too.
SPEAKER_01 (45:41):
Right.
And uh that last point you madethere that really rings true is
like self-control.
Um I think like that's the thingtoo is like with self-control,
making sure that that like youdon't give in to like emotions
as easy as it may seem, or likea feeling like it's necessary,
(46:01):
or like it's a like somethinglike a flight fight or flight
response to.
I think that's the thing too, iswe need to bear in mind like
this is public.
Um what we say, like it's notjust seen between like yourself
and like another person thatyou're in conflict with.
It is seen by a lot of ourmutual creators, um, at least
(46:23):
like uh when I'm scrollingthrough on my Twitter feed, like
um, I'll see like a responselike from a stream like a mutual
streamer friend before I see theoriginal like poster as well.
So like I'll see like themresponding um in like highly
charged, angry, emotional, andthen I'll think, oh hey, what's
(46:46):
got them upset?
And then I'll need to likescroll back up and up uh to like
the what uh the original postwas um from someone else, and
then like that's where it comesdown to like down the rabbit
hole.
SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
Again, context is important, you know, recognizing
the emotional states of people,understanding, trying to
understand both sides of anargument, whether you're
mediating or whether you'redirectly involved in it,
practicing empathy, and um notmaking something public when it
(47:21):
really doesn't need to be, uh,as well as making sure that
you're not acting impulsively,responding impulsively,
responding with furthering anyoffensive attacks, and um
watching, you know, payingattention to how you feel when
you're responding to something,how your body feels
(47:42):
physiologically, same way that Ido when I'm feeling anxious.
I'm at a point now where I canrecognize how my body feels, my
heart rate is up, and andvarious other symptoms, you
know, uh noticeable symptoms.
Um, I'm like, okay, I'm feelinga certain way, I'm gonna take a
breather, and then I'll I'llI'll re-evaluate the situation.
All of those things I mentionedare important steps to take when
(48:04):
you're trying to navigate socialmedia and and comments from
people that put you or make youfeel a certain way.
SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
Right.
Um, and I was scrolling throughmy notes as well, and there is
um one specific instance of umessentially like another this
goes back to like one of ourprevious down the rabbit hole
talks about setting boundariesas a streamer, but this event,
this thread essentially like uhjust started involving like a
(48:38):
whole bunch of like mutualswhere one creator basically
called out another for crossingtheir boundaries and then uh
also like uh um pointing outsome of their specific messages
and actions in Discord, andessentially they've uh been like
pr they've been giving likedifferent points or like uh
(48:59):
different examples of like thiscreator not doing it uh just to
themselves but to others aswell.
And it just became like thiswhole thread about uh mutuals
like coming out and saying,like, oh hey, we've experienced
like similar misbehaviors or umor like actions that made us
uncomfortable.
And I and like I think that'sthe thing too, is like I emph I
(49:25):
had some empathy for like uh thecreator who um was saying that
their boundaries were crossed aslike a fellow introvert slash
ambivert.
Um there's only like so muchsocial battery that I can give.
Um and when a creator is saying,like, hey, I need my space, like
that's something that uhprobably one of the most
(49:45):
important things to respect aswell.
Um but the fact too that it waslike it started off with like
one creator that's that like itbecame like a bonfire and it
like spread to like a wholebunch of other communities, like
it it was uh something that Iwanted to bring up with you and
(50:05):
and to share as well.
The last uh one um that I wantedto tie together was um like the
aftermath question when thingshave cooled down.
And yeah, I think if ifanything, one of the takeaways I
want to give again is likeconversation of before conflict,
primarily um conversationinstead of conflict, if you can
(50:28):
avoid conflict altogether andjust have a civil grown adult
conversation.
That's uh probably like the bestscenario.
SPEAKER_00 (50:38):
I agree.
You you will inevitably findpeople that are used to bullying
people into their point of view,being loud, the people that I
mentioned in workplace who liketo yell in front of everybody.
That was their way of silencingthem.
You will find people like thatwho refuse to engage with you in
rational conversation, but younot everybody is like that.
(51:02):
So every situation is gonna bedifferent.
Follow the steps that you feelare gonna work to diffuse the
situation and to get people toat least understand the other
portion's point of view, even ifthey're not going to agree with
it.
And doing so in a calm,professional, adult-like manner,
involving only people that needto be involved, I think is going
(51:24):
to be the best case scenario foreverybody.
Because the longer and the moreoften that people continue to
attack others online, uhjustified or not, and there's
these very public battles backand forth, the more we kind of
become conditioned to saying,okay, that's an okay thing to
see, that's an okay thing to do,and the problem will keep
(51:46):
perpetuating, and it will neverget better.
I think that we can be better,um, but it takes a lot of of
it's gonna take a lot of work oneveryone's part to get to a
point where we can make ourfirst response to a situation.
Hey, why don't we take thisaside and talk about it?
SPEAKER_01 (52:05):
Yep, absolutely.
Um, and uh last uh point too islike private conversations are
like much better than likethrowing this all out in the
public where like mutuals couldlike get involved and then it
becomes like a whole mess ofthings, too, and then it could
uh lead to like uh worseconflicts down the line.
(52:25):
Yeah, I agree.
I definitely agree.
Follow the steps that you feel are going to work
to diffuse the situation and toget people to at least
understand the other portion'spoint of view, even if they're
not going to agree with it.
And doing so in a calm,professional, adult-like manner,
involving only people that needto be involved, I think is going
to be the best case scenario foreverybody.
(00:21):
Welcome to Down the Rabbit Hole,podcast for creators with
Typhloen and myself.
Tonight we're going to betalking about how to navigate
difficult social mediainteractions, navigating, you
know, trolling, all that kind ofstuff.
Backlash, I believe it had thetitle.
It's a it's an issue.
(00:41):
Before we get into that, Ty FloRen, how are you?
SPEAKER_01 (00:44):
Uh, doing very well.
And our intentions for tonight'spodcast are to provide
guidelines and etiquette whenapproaching difficult subject
matters in the creator space,and to bring awareness to this
fact as well.
Um, something that we shouldnote right off the bat is there
will be times someone may give ahot take, bring up a sensitive
(01:07):
subject.
And ideally, we would we shoulddebate in a respectful and
logical manner.
I'll just bluntly say that mostof us here in the streamer space
are grown adults, and um I feellike we should be able to like
easily talk one-on-one in aroundtable discussion about some
(01:28):
of these sensitive subjects oreven hot takes.
Uh, something that to help younavigate better would be what is
the importance of using like thecorrect tone.
I was actually um posting thisin um the comment section right
now, too, and specifically toadd context to this question of
a past tweet that I saw fromyou, Morph, um, was addressing
(01:51):
uh like how important tone isand making sure that context is
needed.
Um, I don't remember thespecific creator that you were
speaking to, Al.
And also as a side note, I willdo my best to omit um certain
creator names, like especiallythose who have dropped hot takes
in the past before when it comesto content creation or
(02:12):
streaming.
But your explanation on uh umwhy he was asking why context
matters um was spot on.
I really liked how you saidspecifically that uh you want to
make sure that your tone getsacross and what you're saying
doesn't uh get taken the wrongway or twisted out of
(02:32):
proportion.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Yeah, I'm glad you remember it because I don't.
Um, but that that's a very validpoint.
And it's it's difficult, right?
We we've known this forever.
As long as we've been typingonline, it's it's difficult to
get tone from text.
So it requires extra effort,which a lot of people just don't
(02:53):
put in.
Um, it requires you to reallythink through what you're saying
and your word choice.
Um, I know that I I've seentweets from you about uh recent
topics where you I can tell youhave deliberated over every word
that you were putting in atweet.
I do the same thing because weknow how easy it is for someone
(03:15):
else to take it out of context.
Um, or sometimes you can beperfect, and you have folks like
myself who have a tendency to,even though I'm very sarcastic
when I'm talking and I make alot of jokes about around like
that, I tend to take things thatpeople say and things that I
read literally.
So as sarcastic as my brain is,um, I don't always see it when
(03:39):
I'm reading text.
So if you say something, I mightjust think you're actually just
being a jerk when you're tryingto be funny, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Exactly.
Um, and uh let's let me uh readuh Shell's response here to make
a clear message since everythingcan be misunderstood and turn to
something that's not, um andthis ties into very much what
you just brought up too.
Um and I'll even uh open upabout this and say that my most
(04:09):
recent tweet regarding the newum Hogwarts Legacy Harry Potter
game, when I asked a specificquestion to the trans community,
to the trans community, I askedit because I wanted to bring
awareness and light uh to thisissue.
And uh I did my best to be asdeliberate and in full support.
(04:32):
I even made a follow-up tweetsaying that in good faith, I
specifically myself am notbuying the game because I do a
uh have I do want tospecifically support friends
within the trans community.
Um and I will admit that therewas still there was some
backlash, oh not necessarilybacklash, but pushback on um my
(04:54):
question too.
One of my friends, uh, we had arespectful, lengthy talk as
well, where he said, here's thequestion that you and others
should be asking.
And uh at the end, he said thathe was explaining at length why
uh um himself and a few otherswere like in a defensive tone,
(05:17):
and that uh he wasn'tnecessarily attacking me, but uh
trying to give the fullexplanation and picture.
And uh and we're still uh uhgood friends to this day, too.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Yeah.
It's it's always interestingwhen the hot take involves um
again.
The attention here is not tofocus on marginalized groups,
but I just want to use thisexample.
It's when you're talking aboutwhen your hot take or your tweet
or whatever it is, yourinteraction involves some sort
of marginalized group, whetherit's the BIPOC community,
(05:49):
LGBTQIA plus, um, or whateverthe community is.
Um you're gonna find people inthose respective communities who
also take things different ways.
Um there, you know, I I had Bon,I think it was uh I don't
remember exactly what thecontext was, but I had um oh you
(06:09):
it's the thing you had sent me,Tytla Ren, on on Twitter uh
Discord the other day, wherethere was somebody who was in a
um, I believe the BIPOCcommunity was really upset about
the notion that you can't put nopolitics as a tag because it
made them feel that it wasn't asafe space because the person
(06:32):
wasn't allowing discourse on aparticular thing.
And I read that and um I had Imean also being somebody who is
uh mixed race said I completelydisagree with that.
I completely disagree with itbecause um when I am in some
streams, I do I use it as anescape, I do not want to talk
(06:56):
about certain topics, you know.
So they were very aggressive inhow they were presenting their
case, and I chose, you know, youyou said fortunately you sent me
a screenshot or I might havereplied responded, but you know,
there were some less thanpleasant responses to that, you
know.
So it's it's a difficult thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
I will admit too, adding to um your last point, I
have seen mutuals come intothose kinds of conversations,
like giving their like verylengthy takes, and also um uh
even like confronting it and atunfortunately at times uh like
becoming at conflict with likeseveral other mutuals that we
(07:40):
share together too.
Um and I just remember when Isent you that, um, your response
I 100% agreed with all yourpoints there.
Um and I think that's the thingtoo, is like uh when it comes
down to it, we I see uh Twitchstreams as like personal TV
(08:01):
production.
Um it is your show, you have torun it how you want how you see
fit, really.
Um almost like I this may not belike the correct terminology to
use, but like Laissez-Fare,where it's like uh it's like me
having like my hands off of yourproduction because I don't want
because at the end of the day,it is uh like your creation,
(08:23):
it's something you should takepride in.
And uh while I could see some oflike the points that that
creator was making with like uhum being upset with no politics,
I think that that's that j thatshould lead to a round table
discussion of like finding acompromise by saying like, oh
hey, uh some of us can say likeuh we uh do allow some talk
(08:47):
about politics, but keep it atat a minimum.
At least uh that's what I seefor myself, because while I will
address um certain politicalissues, I do also realize that
there are some people within uhmy community that want that like
you like you yourself want touse it as an escape.
(09:07):
So uh I've uh there's certainsegments of my Twitch stream
where like I'll open it up todiscussion, but then after that
time is up, we uh go back tolike whatever conversation we
had previously.
And uh and also like for mepersonally, it's giving the time
of day for everyone that wantsthat wants to like speak about
(09:28):
something on their mind, notjust favoring a political
statement from a one viewer assomeone who tries to compromise
between um two uh like twoparties or more, or if you're
someone who's confrontationaland trying to press your point
and trying to get at people tosee your side, or are you
(09:49):
someone that which I'll admit tolike myself most recently this
week and the past few weeks,I've been more of someone who's
like on the sidelines, who'saware of uh the conflicts
between streamer mutuals, butalso someone who doesn't want to
get involved.
Um, as much as I you know dolike mediating between friends,
(10:10):
a lot of like um the topics andsensitive subjects uh the past
week or so have been difficultto approach, which is why I've
uh I'll admit I've been someonewho has been on the sideline and
you know just watching.
SPEAKER_00 (10:28):
Yeah, so I have historically been someone who is
uh conflict adverse.
Um I just I've always liked tobe, as odd as it might sound,
I've always looked to be apeople pleaser, and I just did
not feel comfortable um withconflict.
My couple of years here doing umcontent creation has turned that
(10:51):
around for me because we are uhwe are attacked con at least in
my personal experience, um Ihave been attacked constantly
for everything, and it gets topull up to a point where I
cannot just sit idly by and letit sit.
(11:12):
So I don't really know that Iget in the count in the position
as a mediator where I um want tohelp both sides see eye to eye.
If it if there was truly a casewhere both people were were
saying a similar thing and theyreally just needed someone to
word it differently for eachparty so that they could realize
(11:35):
they differ had this thedifferences they thought they
did, I would actually do that.
The problem is that um that'snot usually the case.
Usually there is somebody who isjust way off base.
And I I know, and because Iusually focus when I focus on
controversial topics like theones I mentioned earlier, I tend
(11:59):
to take a very hard stance onpeople that are disrespecting
you know whatever community itis that we're talking about, and
I guess I do get a little bitconfrontational.
Um right, you know, so I I it'sit's not my preferred method is
to to be confrontational, butyou know, I feel like like one
(12:23):
thing that was said a lot, aphrase that I I like is you
know, to to be sound is to becomplicit.
So when we're talking aboutcertain topics, I I keep that in
mind.
SPEAKER_01 (12:31):
Right, and I think that's the thing too.
Um is I came up with a follow-upquestion for this.
Um let's see, I just posted itin chat.
Um, if there are two mutualcreator friends at odds over a
thread or some kind of other subspecific subject, how would you
approach it?
(12:51):
Um, I know you said that you arenowadays more confrontational.
Would you be confrontationalwith both parties?
Um uh depending on what thesubject is.
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Yeah, the same way that I say that I I treat
everybody the same, whetheryou're it's your first day
streaming or whether you're uhuh a famous creator, um, I don't
care.
Um if you if I'm friends of twopeople and one of them is off
base, I will let them know thatthey are off base.
(13:25):
Um and if they truly aresomebody that is is a friend, we
have a common understanding,then they will see my point and
they will have an open mind andwe can enter into a dialogue.
Um but I'm not gonna try to, Iam I'm no longer the person
that's gonna try to appease bothsides, which that you know that
(13:48):
that change in my personalityover the having been in doing
contacts for a couple yearsmakes like the topic of this of
this episode makes it difficultfor me to just avoid things,
which I don't know is always theright answer, anyway, in my
opinion.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
And I think that's the thing too is like there's no
cookie-cutter answer um uh tosome of these questions that
we're posing right now.
And I did not post this yet, butum, I guess it's another
follow-up question.
Is it possible to mediate most,if not all, arguments?
Um, granted that I know there'ssome people out there that uh
(14:27):
like myself would rather stay onthe sideline or um would uh like
would like be confrontationaland biased to like one side or
the other.
Um and I think let's see.
What I I guess that's thequestion that I have for you in
chat is like can most, if notall, arguments um be mediated in
(14:52):
some form or another?
SPEAKER_00 (14:53):
Um I don't know if I can give it if I can can give it
a quantity, you know, if I canquantify it like that in terms
of most or some.
I think it it really depends onit, you know.
Um here's you know, given anissue that I had a couple weeks
ago, which is still annoying tobring up, but there was a number
(15:16):
of people that were um unhappywith me about the way that I
asked or what I was asking forhere on Twitter.
And most people were veryaggressive and rude about how
they were they were approachingme.
And you know, I made somemissteps, I guess, before where
I was sarcastic back to them andand that didn't go over well
(15:40):
with somebody who already wasemotional, um, you know, the
other party, but then there werea few of them that were DMing me
privately or they wereresponding very logically and
matter of fact.
So in it it depends on not justreally the topic, but the
emotional state of the otherperson.
(16:02):
So if you find yourself in asituation where someone is
really coming at you, or you seesomeone going after someone else
that you know, or or whether youdon't know them, the first
things you really want to try todo, in my opinion, this is work
not just on online interactions,but you know, as somebody who
has managed people for 20 years,um you need to get people to
(16:23):
calm down.
Um, however, you do I'm somebodywho tends to use humor to do
that, and it's worked veryeffectively throughout my entire
life.
Um, but whatever it is, you needpeople to calm down and get to a
point where they can startthinking logically again,
because when you're thinkingthrough anger or whatever that
(16:45):
that emotion is going to be, youdon't see things um in a way
that's gonna allow you to have aproductive dialogue.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
Right.
And I think that's uh that's uhlike the hook right there is to
think logically about some ofthese um hot takes or like
sensitive subjects.
I I really liked how you addedlogic in there because I think
like it's that's the thing too,is a lot of these uh topics uh
(17:15):
are set on emotion or likeemotionally charged, as we were
talking about before our livestream.
Um and I think to tie into thatas well is like what if someone
were to accuse you of siding itwith one side or being biased
and like how would you go aboutthat using logic?
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
Um if someone were to accuse me of doing that, you
know, it it it sound I woulddefend what I what what my
viewpoint was.
Um I like to I like to I thinkI've said this a number of
times.
I try to see both sides of anargument, you know, um before I
(17:57):
weigh in with my opinion.
Sometimes I get emotional too.
Um, as you've seen, I have afreaking segment called More
France, so yeah, I do getemotional too.
But I try to see both sides ofan argument and weigh which
seems to be the most logical.
Sometimes it's cut and dry,sometimes it's not.
You know, if somebody is uhunhappy with my decision or
(18:19):
which side that I'm picking,then I will ask them to explain
why they feel that way, andmaybe there is something that I
missed when I was analyzing thesituation.
I just don't always like to besomeone that sits on the fence,
and you know, because we don'tusually do that in life.
We pick one or the other, and sothat's how I approach it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Alright.
Um, Shell had some responses toa few of our questions here.
Shell says, I'm more of amediator because all I see when
people get very confrontational,people get very toxic.
Um, I had and I have been apeople pleaser all my life and
avoided conflict.
But now I'm seeing more and morepeople getting doxxed and
(19:02):
unalive threats because they gotattacked.
Right.
Um, that la the last few pointsthere, those are very um, I
guess, like un unfortunatelythey're common within the
creator and streamer space.
Um, and I think that's brave ofyou, Shell, to act as that
mediator and to be that voice ofreason and person of logic.
(19:26):
Um, like more mentioned earlier,using whatever method uh
possible to calm both sidesdown.
SPEAKER_00 (19:34):
Yeah.
So, like the first thing youneed to be had, in my opinion, I
again I'm not a trainedprofessional.
This is what I do and what hasworked for me.
Um, is I try to defuse asituation, and then you can get
both sides to sort of startstating their case and work
(19:55):
through it.
If one side or both sides refuseto get out of that
hyper-emotional state, it's it'sbest to just walk away or have
them walk away until they can dothat.
You know, there's you're notit's nothing is gonna be
productive, you're going backand forth.
And when somebody escalatestheir attacks to doxing, can be
(20:17):
very dangerous for some peopleor really life-altering, or they
start put putting you know, umunaliving threats or our wishes
or hopes, that's when it's goneto a new level, and you need to
treat it much more seriously andand and take more drastic
measures.
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Right.
Um, and speaking of, oh, hangon.
I think I was scrolling throughand I saw another response from
Shell.
It uh let's see which response,let's which question?
Oh, right.
Uh, this was in response to myquestion of if two mutual
creator friends are at odds overa thread, how do you approach
it?
And Shell specifically said itdepends.
(20:59):
Main approach is to be kind andwise in your way to talk uh to
people, um, even more wise andkind towards people you disagree
with.
And I think that's the thing,too, is like it really is easier
said than done to um be open tohearing the opposing side um to
see and uh have some sort ofempathy, like where they are
(21:23):
coming from as well.
Um, and to maybe not fully agreewith them, but also um let's
see, like, oh hey, I can kind Ican understand like a few of
these the points that could bevalid, um, and then from there
on like coming to some kind oflike mutual agreement or like uh
(21:44):
for lack of of like a betterdescription, like peace treaty
or some kind of like truce.
SPEAKER_00 (21:50):
What is you know uh your common tactic when uh I
know you said that you know youyou tend to appease both sides,
but do you ever get to a pointwhere you feel the need to
defend yourself?
And it's not just for Shell, butit could be for anybody who's
listening, where you find theneed to defend yourself and you
go more on the offensive, or areyou somebody that tends to hang
(22:10):
back more?
Um take your time in answeringthat.
It's up to you.
What is so what is your style inon dealing with conflict?
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
That is a very it's a very um specific um uh
strategy.
I guess it goes that's the thingtoo, is like it's a case by
case, um and usually when itcomes to mediating, um, I try to
this may s uh come off as alittle it's a questionable
(22:38):
strategy, but also like it's thesafest one too, is to let both
sides kind of uh make theircases, plead their cases, and
then to essentially like letthem let both sides eventually
vent and to uh pick or like pickapart uh both uh sides like uh
see which ones are valid too,and then also try to like not
(23:03):
necessarily interject myself,but to come in and say, Hey, I
see X party as like saying this,but uh I can like under s let's
let's like uh highlight thesepoints that uh they're making,
but then also let's uh let'salso hear like some of yours and
highlight them too.
And then like based off of likeuh what each side is saying and
(23:26):
what I can pick apart, trying toor like coming up with some sort
of like middle ground,essentially, like that that
essentially addresses and uh uheven like answers like some of
uh some of the those points.
SPEAKER_00 (23:40):
If you're if you're arguing one side of a dispute,
you have reasons why you feelthat your side is correct, or
your your take is correct, andwhy this side is um correct
versus the other side.
So whatever it is, you those areyour logical reasons.
So you simply need to be able toto state them.
(24:03):
And assuming that the situationis no longer emotionally
charged, you once you startexplaining yourself and reason
with with sound arguments,again, this is a little bit
difficult without having anexample in mind.
I think you would you would beable to refute it, you know.
Um and I guess if the questionis do you want A or B, and you
(24:24):
say B, I guess everyone wouldall somebody would inevitably
say you're biased.
Well, yeah, I'm biased because Bis the right choice, you know, B
is this, B is that.
And I don't think I'm making anysense right now, but in my head
I know what I'm trying to say.
You you you need to be able tosay the reasons why you're
supporting one side.
You can't just say because,because I have a gut feeling.
(24:48):
There needs to be more thanthat.
If that is your reasoning, ifthat is your logic at that
point, you need to think aboutit more thoroughly.
There have to be reasons why youfeel one way or another.
You might not be able toarticulate them very well.
So honestly, maybe be a littlebit quiet until you can figure
that out.
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
Absolutely.
And and I'm glad you and I seeeye to eye on that, where um
when uh I was like providinglike my strategy, I I like how
you and I are the kinds ofpeople who while we do try to
like step in and mediate, um,we're also the kinds of people
that that like let both partieslike kind of hash it out or not
(25:31):
necessarily hash it out, but tobut to plead their cases and
like not jump in too early umbefore like uh any before either
side can uh um get their pointsacross.
SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Yeah.
Um and when you're in thosesituations too, you know, like
everything you just said isaccurate.
If you find that you'reemotional, don't respond right
away.
If you respond too quickly, it'svery impulsive, and most likely
you're gonna come off whetheryou intend to or not, sometimes
you intend to, as rude oroffensive or sarcastic or
(26:06):
whatever, and that is not gonnahelp the situation.
Do not come off and um makepersonal attacks, do not come
off and you know mock the otherperson in in any way, even if
that is what they're doing toyou.
Um, I'm not gonna say I believein the philosophy of turning you
the cheek, but sometimes killingthem with kindness is is does
(26:26):
help.
And another thing too is whenthey're very emotionally
charged, if you are not, if youcan can keep your composure and
speak rationally back tosomebody who is just attacking
you, and this actually works, inmy opinion, better in person
than it does um over uh you knowtyped interactions, then they
(26:49):
will, in in my experience, beginto calm down because they can
see that you're calm and theyrealize how they must look.
And and they will try to changetheir demeanor.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
Uh going back to what you were saying too,
specifically about um like notresponding with anger or with
emotion, um, I'll open up to youand our listeners tonight and
say that recently on streamerTikTok, um, like for bad story
and context, I was saying uh uha creator was asking, did
(27:23):
streaming ruin gaming?
Um, and my response was uh notnecessarily within um the RPG
streamer community, and uh I waslike giving points about like
how um it brought peopletogether actually.
And a commenter, I won't uh listtheir name, specifically said
(27:44):
that oh those RPG uh streamers,like they uh they're not
necessarily streamers, they'relet's players.
It did it did kind of rub me thewrong way, like I'll just
playing out say that.
Um, and I had to take a stepback uh um before responding in
uh d in anger or defensively.
(28:05):
Um because uh I'll admit some ofmy close streamer friends like
primarily stream RPGs orstory-based games.
Um another mutual friend of minecame in and uh they asked uh
like follow-up questions, whichI will say like were asked like
very um logically, and also um Ieven private messaged them say
(28:30):
because I know they were RPGstreamers too, and saying, hey,
I'm sorry that this commentercame into um my video and said
these things.
I and then I specifically toldthem that the reason I was not
responding was because I wastrying to come up with logical
explanations as to why um themsaying that RPG players are not
(28:53):
streamers and that it wasessentially gatekeeping.
Um they the friend that I was uhlike messaging privately like
understood they weren't offendedthemselves, but they were happy
that I was trying to come upwith ways to stand up for uh uh
streamers who play RPG uh gamesand like and to essentially
(29:14):
validate them in the streamingspace.
SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
Yeah, so it's it's interesting when you brought up
that specific example.
I know which one this was, andthis ties into something you had
asked earlier when two friendswere having a disagreement, and
there have been severalinstances over the last week or
so where people that I amfriends with have also attacked
some things that you've beensaying, and I don't remember how
(29:37):
what my answer was earliertonight, but I'm thinking my
first instinct was oh, I'm justgonna step back for a second
because I don't want to pisseither side off, you know,
because like I understood wherethey were coming from, but I
also understood your question,your your take on it too.
And but it wasn't a case whereyou two were saying the same
thing, they really did have adifferent opinion.
(29:58):
Now, one thing that I Will addto this um when you're looking
at the two sides, is the sameway that I tend to look at
things very literally.
I interpret things differentsometimes than other people do.
You know, I have ADHD.
I do not believe I'm on the umany kind of autism spectrum, but
(30:21):
that we we there are plenty ofpeople who are that we interact
with on a regular basis, andpeople who have some sort of
neurodivergency are are going tointerpret things and see things
differently.
The way that they respond tothem might be a very well
thought out, rational uhresponse, but it may not have
come through that way in tone,whether that's a video they're
(30:45):
reply they're doing or whetherit's in text.
And I think it's important totry to understand people and try
to understand their perspectivewhen you see those kind of
responses and and ask clarifyingquestions that aren't defensive
in nature, that aren't offensivein nature, and just to just to
(31:05):
say, hey, can you I'm not surequite sure I was following you.
Can you repeat that?
When I have taken that tacticbefore, um, usually people will
reiterate what they were sayingin some way that I do
understand.
Um, occasionally they they thinkthat I'm trolling them and they
get more upset, but that's atactic to try to take too.
SPEAKER_01 (31:27):
For a follow-up question that I have uh for you
and our listeners is in theaftermath of uh conflicts, um
when things have hopefullycooled down between both
parties, how do you go aboutreaching out to those involved,
specifically like the twoindividuals that uh had the most
involvement in it?
(31:49):
Would you uh go about itprivately or public or make a
public uh statement on uh eithereither or?
SPEAKER_00 (31:57):
I would never do it publicly, ever.
I have worked in many places,not many places, I have worked
in places before where a seniorperson would go after somebody
else publicly, it never worksout, it demoralizes the person
(32:18):
who's being attacked, and it itdestroys the morale in the
workplace.
Now, applying that to this, it'sthe same thing.
So when I had the situationwhere I was being publicly
attacked, and you know, thingsthat I do were being attacked,
it was there was levels ofembarrassment, there was levels
(32:39):
of just I felt like the weightof the world on me, you know
what I mean?
And it was very difficult.
So there was a person who uhlater on in those exchanges, a
person who I was having abackforth with it was very
polite and very adult, like, buteven at the end of that, it just
kept dragging on.
I'm like, why isn't this just aconversation?
(33:01):
So I just reached out to them, Ididn't know them, but I just
reached out to them, like, canwe just talk instead of going
back and forth?
You know, so there's not alwaysa real reason, in my opinion, to
drag something that could beprivate public.
I I do not see the point in it.
Some people do it because I wantto teach them a lesson, like
(33:23):
maybe the other person is trulyin the wrong.
Why do you need to publiclyhumiliate somebody though?
Like, what what's the value inthat?
I especially if it's if it'smaybe if it's a legal case and
you want to make sure thatpeople understand how shitty of
a person they are.
I I I guess maybe, but if it'snot anything that is illegal or
(33:45):
harming somebody, and you'rejust out there to destroy them
for whatever reason, what's thepoint?
SPEAKER_01 (33:52):
And I think that's the thing too.
Um, something that really caughtmy attention uh from what you
were saying, um, was why can'twe make this a conversation?
I think one of the takeawaysthat I hope anyone who's
listening um uh tonight isconversation over conflict.
Um, and this ties back to whatboth of you uh both of us, what
(34:15):
we were saying at the beginning,um is that let's be honest, all
of us here on streamer Twitter,streamer TikTok are grown adults
and we should quote unquote beacting like it too.
Um that means like like what yousaid, making it into a
conversation, um, sitting downand having a roundtable
(34:36):
discussion with like between thelike the two of us or like with
mutuals too to like hash thingsout.
And ideally that's essentiallywhat should happen instead of
like a lot of vicious back andforth from what I've been seeing
on streamer Twitter um this pastweek.
Yeah, and it's always for ourviewers too.
If you want to like if you youwant to share any examples, like
(34:58):
you can omit names like howMorph and I have been omitting
them too.
It's not an obligation, but umit is appreciated to like hear
from your perspectives as well.
SPEAKER_00 (35:11):
And if you're listening to this later on a
podcast and you have a commenton this, honestly, you can reach
out to either one of us onTwitter um and and and send us a
DM or send us uh just just tweetus and um we can definitely
start a conversation with you.
But no, I I absolutely agreewith you.
(35:32):
Um in fact, it's it's kind ofchanging my mindset right now
and how I want to deal withfuture situations when you know
um I am attacked if I can feelthat I'm emotional, whether it's
defensive or I'm just angry, totake a moment and not respond
right away until I feel I'mcalmed down, sort of like you
(35:52):
said earlier.
And then when I do am ready tohave a conversation, when I am
ready to respond to the person,I think my new tactic going
forward will be to DM them,understanding that they will
probably screenshot it.
So just don't think thatanything you say is private, but
just come with that same adultlevel of professionalism and a
(36:15):
DM as well.
But if you can invite them to aDiscord call or whatever to
actually just talk about it soyou can remove any of the
dangers of there beingmisinterpreted um tone in your
in your what you wrote, um, Ithink something like that would
be beneficial.
Now, what you're gonna find outthough is a lot of people aren't
gonna want to engage in that.
I remember a situation this pastsummer where I had um one of my
(36:42):
uh toxic gender and gaming umpodcasts on Twitch, and posting
clips led to a lot of toxiccomments on TikTok, very vicious
tock comments on TikTok, to thepoint where I uh was responding
angrily back to many of these.
(37:02):
And at one point I invitedanyone who who felt that that
way they did, truly felt it, tocome to stream and I would give
them the floor and we would talkabout it.
And and not to my surprise, onlytwo people took me up on it, and
(37:22):
even then they decided to changetheir tone at the last minute
because they knew they would getcalled out because their their
views were so horrible.
But talking it out, I think, canbe better than trying to engage
publicly sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
Right, and sometimes I think we'll through private
messages as well, like peoplehave that comfort to like open
up more or to at least um likewhat we said too, instead of
like acting uh rashly andemotionally, like calm down and
say, like, oh hey, now that wedon't have like eyes on us, um
(37:59):
like uh uh I want to like I wantto like come off as someone that
uh wants that doesn't want tolike seem like I'm attacking
you.
There was a last minutequestion.
Oh, before I forget, I just sawanother response from Shell
here.
In experiences, uh this it uhconsidering doing a video about
(38:21):
it, uh the Hogwarts legacy game,where players are getting
attacked because the authors arevery harmful, have very harmful
comments, and you try and goanother route with being verbal.
Uh let's see, I think I'm alsogetting just got another message
from Shell here and supporttowards the trans community.
Um, if you play the game and notletting a person who wants to
(38:43):
take away rights ruin stuff foreveryone, putting friends
against friends is ripping apartthe community instead of uh
getting stronger and essentiallytry to show the world we don't
agree with her.
That's another thing too, iswith the um the Hogwarts legacy
game, I've I know uh like you,myself, and uh creators within
(39:04):
uh your mentorship program,we've had a very lengthy, well
multiple lengthy talks aboutthis too.
And uh yes, I I do agree with uhwhat Shell is saying here.
And like to show that we standwith marginalized groups with
the trans community, and then Ithink that's the thing too, is
like it's this is like adifficult subject for us to
(39:27):
tackle, really, because like wes we clearly do stand with
marginalized groups, it's justuh that we also need to
understand that not everyone whoactually does play the games
like is like anti-trans or likefor lack of a better word.
SPEAKER_00 (39:44):
Right, right.
Um, and I think uh a lot of itcan come down to who you may
know personally and how theyfeel.
You know, if you have a friendwho is trans and they said that
it it hurts them, honestly, evenif you can't relate, then maybe
maybe don't play it.
You know, you know what I mean?
It really comes down to to thatsometimes because it's it's hard
(40:07):
to put yourself, not everybodyhas a lot of empathy, and a lot
of people, a lot of people don'thave a lot of empathy, and it's
very difficult for sometimes forpeople to truly put themselves
in someone else's shoes.
So while you or I may not seesomething as a big deal, it
might truly be a big deal to tosomebody else.
(40:28):
And if you find that that is um,if you can understand that, then
you know it'll make yourdecision on which direction you
want to go easier.
But you know, practice empathy,try to put yourself in someone
else's shoes, even when they areum attacking you, if they're
(40:53):
attacking you, you know, try tounderstand the place that
they're coming from, and thatmight help you understand their
point of view.
And if you can understand theirpoint of view, and this is tying
it back where I said thebeginning, then that will allow
you to respond to them in a waythat they will probably
understand as you'rere-explaining your position on
(41:16):
it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
And before um we uh before I uh say anything um to
support your points, um, I justuh noticed this message from
Dominique.
Discussions are okay, but andwhen it starts to get nasty, it
needs to stop.
And I fully agree with whatDominique says, where we have to
be self-aware, not just ascreators, but as like mature
(41:39):
adults and like kind of likenotice accused of like when uh
like uh when uh like ourdiscussions like turn into
arguments which turn into likejust blatant hurtful comments,
um that's when we need to likeuh cut it off or like uh um stop
that threatened conversation andthen maybe come back, refresh uh
(42:03):
more logical, and then say like,hey, I know what I said and what
or what you said um uh was likehurtful or like wasn't uh
necessarily relevant to like theconversation that was originally
intended, but like let's startagain.
SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
No, you you're correct.
There does come a point in aconversation where you can have
the best of intentions, you canclearly see their side, you have
uh a tactic, strategy in mind tobe able to relay your point to
them, but they refuse forwhatever reason, or maybe they
are incapable of gettingthemselves out of the emotional
(42:42):
state that they're in, theelevated emotional state that
they're in.
And in that case, it it needs tobe set aside.
Do not try to force yourrationality, your logic onto
someone who is not ready to getto that point.
You need to understand when it'stime to walk away a little bit.
I'm not saying you don't comeback and revisit it, because if
(43:04):
you don't, you're just leavingan open wound.
But sometimes you need time andit's important to recognize
that.
I have seen too many people whosay, No, I know what the problem
is and I can fix it.
It's like you need to back off alittle bit until they're ready
to hear it because anything yousay will be lost.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
Um, and that's the thing, too, is like because for
many of us, this is um like aprofession, a side job, anything
that you uh say that's harmfulcould be used as like defamation
of character, like potentiallegal actions could be against
you um or anyone else that triesto uh like uh to put it bluntly,
(43:44):
slander another creator's name.
SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
Yeah.
And you you raise a good pointthat I hadn't really it was uh
an argument or uh line I wasthinking of going down, but
we're talking about contentcreators here, whether you're a
podcaster, whether you'resomeone who posts on mostly on
social media, whether you're astreamer, youtuber, whatever it
is, you're a content creator whois trying to provide some value
(44:12):
to make people happier, whetheryou're gaming, whether you're
doing educational, whetherwhatever it is, whatever you're
doing, you're trying to makepeople smile, trying to give how
educate them, whatever it is.
And when you find yourself in asituation where emotions are
high, you're not able to dothat.
(44:33):
It's best to remember thepurpose of what you're doing and
not let the negativity of asituation overshadow that.
So if you need to back stepaway, if you need to ignore it,
if you need to go away, that'swhat you should do because
otherwise you're going toovershadow what you're doing
with that negativity.
(44:54):
And to give you one quickexample, again, of my one of my
most recent um that most recentissue.
I wanted to keep going back andforth to people when they kept
going at me.
I really truly did.
It was so I was uh upset by thesome of the things they were
saying, but I was more upset atthe fact that I knew I couldn't
(45:17):
go back at them because Iwouldn't have been nice, I
wouldn't have been nice, and butI knew it was for for the best
of my brand image and future youknow partnership perspective for
me to to stand down.
And it you have to understandyou have to have that
(45:39):
self-control sometimes too.
SPEAKER_01 (45:41):
Right.
And uh that last point you madethere that really rings true is
like self-control.
Um I think like that's the thingtoo is like with self-control,
making sure that that like youdon't give in to like emotions
as easy as it may seem, or likea feeling like it's necessary,
(46:01):
or like it's a like somethinglike a flight fight or flight
response to.
I think that's the thing too, iswe need to bear in mind like
this is public.
Um what we say, like it's notjust seen between like yourself
and like another person thatyou're in conflict with.
It is seen by a lot of ourmutual creators, um, at least
(46:23):
like uh when I'm scrollingthrough on my Twitter feed, like
um, I'll see like a responselike from a stream like a mutual
streamer friend before I see theoriginal like poster as well.
So like I'll see like themresponding um in like highly
charged, angry, emotional, andthen I'll think, oh hey, what's
(46:46):
got them upset?
And then I'll need to likescroll back up and up uh to like
the what uh the original postwas um from someone else, and
then like that's where it comesdown to like down the rabbit
hole.
SPEAKER_00 (47:00):
Again, context is important, you know, recognizing
the emotional states of people,understanding, trying to
understand both sides of anargument, whether you're
mediating or whether you'redirectly involved in it,
practicing empathy, and um notmaking something public when it
(47:21):
really doesn't need to be, uh,as well as making sure that
you're not acting impulsively,responding impulsively,
responding with furthering anyoffensive attacks, and um
watching, you know, payingattention to how you feel when
you're responding to something,how your body feels
(47:42):
physiologically, same way that Ido when I'm feeling anxious.
I'm at a point now where I canrecognize how my body feels, my
heart rate is up, and andvarious other symptoms, you
know, uh noticeable symptoms.
Um, I'm like, okay, I'm feelinga certain way, I'm gonna take a
breather, and then I'll I'llI'll re-evaluate the situation.
All of those things I mentionedare important steps to take when
(48:04):
you're trying to navigate socialmedia and and comments from
people that put you or make youfeel a certain way.
SPEAKER_01 (48:13):
Right.
Um, and I was scrolling throughmy notes as well, and there is
um one specific instance of umessentially like another this
goes back to like one of ourprevious down the rabbit hole
talks about setting boundariesas a streamer, but this event,
this thread essentially like uhjust started involving like a
(48:38):
whole bunch of like mutualswhere one creator basically
called out another for crossingtheir boundaries and then uh
also like uh um pointing outsome of their specific messages
and actions in Discord, andessentially they've uh been like
pr they've been giving likedifferent points or like uh
(48:59):
different examples of like thiscreator not doing it uh just to
themselves but to others aswell.
And it just became like thiswhole thread about uh mutuals
like coming out and saying,like, oh hey, we've experienced
like similar misbehaviors or umor like actions that made us
uncomfortable.
And I and like I think that'sthe thing too, is like I emph I
(49:25):
had some empathy for like uh thecreator who um was saying that
their boundaries were crossed aslike a fellow introvert slash
ambivert.
Um there's only like so muchsocial battery that I can give.
Um and when a creator is saying,like, hey, I need my space, like
that's something that uhprobably one of the most
(49:45):
important things to respect aswell.
Um but the fact too that it waslike it started off with like
one creator that's that like itbecame like a bonfire and it
like spread to like a wholebunch of other communities, like
it it was uh something that Iwanted to bring up with you and
(50:05):
and to share as well.
The last uh one um that I wantedto tie together was um like the
aftermath question when thingshave cooled down.
And yeah, I think if ifanything, one of the takeaways I
want to give again is likeconversation of before conflict,
primarily um conversationinstead of conflict, if you can
(50:28):
avoid conflict altogether andjust have a civil grown adult
conversation.
That's uh probably like the bestscenario.
SPEAKER_00 (50:38):
I agree.
You you will inevitably findpeople that are used to bullying
people into their point of view,being loud, the people that I
mentioned in workplace who liketo yell in front of everybody.
That was their way of silencingthem.
You will find people like thatwho refuse to engage with you in
rational conversation, but younot everybody is like that.
(51:02):
So every situation is gonna bedifferent.
Follow the steps that you feelare gonna work to diffuse the
situation and to get people toat least understand the other
portion's point of view, even ifthey're not going to agree with
it.
And doing so in a calm,professional, adult-like manner,
involving only people that needto be involved, I think is going
(51:24):
to be the best case scenario foreverybody.
Because the longer and the moreoften that people continue to
attack others online, uhjustified or not, and there's
these very public battles backand forth, the more we kind of
become conditioned to saying,okay, that's an okay thing to
see, that's an okay thing to do,and the problem will keep
(51:46):
perpetuating, and it will neverget better.
I think that we can be better,um, but it takes a lot of of
it's gonna take a lot of work oneveryone's part to get to a
point where we can make ourfirst response to a situation.
Hey, why don't we take thisaside and talk about it?
SPEAKER_01 (52:05):
Yep, absolutely.
Um, and uh last uh point too islike private conversations are
like much better than likethrowing this all out in the
public where like mutuals couldlike get involved and then it
becomes like a whole mess ofthings, too, and then it could
uh lead to like uh worseconflicts down the line.
(52:25):
Yeah, I agree.
I definitely agree.
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