November 15, 2019 • 33 mins
Do you know why your physician cannot do surgery on your pet? Would you even want them to? We have some breaking news about a group that enlisted human physicians to perform surgeries on pets and some of the consequence and backlash. We use this headline to open a conversation with Dr. Courtney Campbell, board certified veterinary surgeon, about why this might not be a good idea and how to find alternatives.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thank God. This is Pet Life Radio. Let's talk pets.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hey there, dog lovers, Welcome to Doctor Kat Gone to
the Dogs. I'm doctor Catherine prim and I'm a small
animal veterinarian and i have an awesome dog named Sky.
Sky is the standard Poodle that I rescued, and my
relationship in bond with her is part of the reason
I wanted to do this show. Today. I have with
me doctor Courtney Campbell, and he and I are going
(00:46):
to discuss a news story that broke about a rescue
group that had enlisted the services of human orthopedic surgeons
to perform surgeries on dogs and things did not go
exactly as planned, and so it is a bit controversial,
and doctor Courtney and I are going to talk about
(01:08):
what happened and use this as a platform to educate
you about what it means to be a veterinarian and
why choosing a position might not be a great idea
for your pet care. So we'll be right back with
doctor Courtney after these messages.
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Speaker 6 (02:04):
Let's Talk pets on Petlife radio dot com.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Welcome back to doctor Kat Gone to the Dogs on
pet Life Radio. I'm here with doctor Courtney Campbell. Hey,
doctor Campbell, how are you.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
I'm absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for having me.
This is going to be a really interesting discussion and topic.
And the truth is, anytime I'm on nine Lives, it's
always an interesting discussion.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Well, it's kind of fun to have you, and you're
one of my favorites. So I reached out to you
because I saw this story and like I said, I
don't really want to point fingers or name names. I
just want to use it as an opportunity to educate
my listeners about what veterinarians do and what's the difference
between veterinarians and physicians and you know, just all the
(03:00):
things that you kind of know about veterinary surgery, so
we could just dive in.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Well, most definitely, and I think that this was thrust
into the public sphere for good reason. It is potentially
a very controversial topic and at the very least, it
stimulates a lot of thought, discussion and some actionable steps
that need to be taken to better define what's happening
and what the rules and regulations are so that we
(03:26):
can wrap our minds around this, and so those who are,
you know, proponents of it, they can find a space
and an avenue to do it. Those who are averse
to it and do not want this to be done,
they can have rules and regulations that limit this type
of activity. To quickly back up for a second, so
that anybody is listening who kind of understands this. There,
(03:46):
that story that broke recently had been under the surface,
under the sort of the public eye, been investigated by
other veterinarians who are looking into this trying to figure
out what exactly is happening with that particular organization, and
that particular organization was their whole goal was to their
efforts was to help dogs who they believed were doomed
(04:10):
and homeless, and they used the term doom meaning headed
for euthanasia, and they saw an opportunity to perform surgeries
to help these dogs, and they went ahead and did them.
There's a major problem with that, particularly in those who
disagree with it, and that is the people performing the
surgeries were not veterinarians. And whether you agree with it
(04:33):
or not, the license to practice medicine on people is
separate from the license to practice medicine on animals, and
the license to be an MD human physician is different
than it is to be a veterinarian. And that distinction,
in my opinion, is there for a very good reason,
but it is there nonetheless, and so that did cause
(04:54):
some degree of consternation among some veterinarians. It caused a
sort of a a vehement defense among those in the organization.
And I agree with exactly what you're saying. I know
that they are, or at least I can assume based
on what they have said in the public sphere that
they're very well intentioned and that they meant well by
(05:14):
what they were doing. And what we need to think
about is even in situations where you have people who
are the most well intentioned, then they can still do
something that's not right. And so I think in this situation,
what we're trying to navigate is what does it mean
to practice veterinary medicine? What does it mean to practice
(05:34):
under the supervision of a veterinarian? And why would you
choose to go to a board certified surgeon over having
an MD or having somebody who's not familiar with who
doesn't have the training perform the actual procedures. So step one,
why go to a veterinary surgeon? What is essentially what's
(05:55):
the big deal? And you'd be surprised that, you know,
when you talk to certain pet parents and you asked
them about the specialties within veternary medicine, a lot of
them are are surprised that the level of specialization has
reached this level of care in the veterinary profession. For instance,
I was just in a pharmacy the other day and
(06:15):
I saw a young gentleman holding his French bulldog and
he was in line to get his medications, and there
were two young ladies who were sitting next to it,
you know, sitting on chairs, and they asked him, oh,
my goodness, that French bulldog you's so cute and just
just sort of overflowing with praise and adoration of how
amazing this French bulldog was. And they said, he said, well,
(06:37):
I'm concerned, you know. He said, I'm concerned about my
French bulldog because I'm not sure he's going to live
too much longer. And their faces immediately dropped. They said, oh,
my goodness, what's going on. He said, he's a heart issue,
you know, it's I feel bad for him. I took
him down to see a cardiologist in LA and he
told me about all the heart problems, and I'm here
to pick up medications for his heart. And they said, goodness,
(07:00):
there's doggy cardiologists. They were just out of their mind,
you know. He said, well, there's doggy surgeons, ophthalmologists, dermatologists,
and they were extremely surprised. So I think step one,
we just need to do a better job in forming
the public of surgical specialization, and then step two, more specifically,
do a better job at talking about the training involved
(07:21):
for a veterinary surgeon.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
So I want to interrupt you really fast because I
want my listeners to understand. The reason I noticed this
story is because there was an image of a radiograph.
It was a post operative radiograph that was circulating on
social media, and the minute I saw it, as a
veterinarian and I'm not an orthopedic surgeon, the minute I
(07:45):
saw the radiograph, I cringed because it wasn't done to
the standards that I was trained, just as a general practitioner.
No doubt Doctor Courtney would have additional thoughts on that,
but it caught my attention. Otherwise I might not have
even thought about this, but the pain and suffering and
prolonged healing experienced by the pet who had this radiograph
(08:10):
just breaks my heart. And so no matter how well
intentioned or how free the surgery is, we have to
think about what that animal went through. And I think
that's why I wanted to kind of talk about this.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, no doubt about it. I mean, listen, I'll be honest,
looking at some of those post op radiographs, it's striking.
It is really really striking, and as you mentioned, heartbreaking.
Of course, I have to put this in context, right,
and I can't necessarily speak with any relative specificity about
those radiographs. They could have been those radiographs after surgery,
(08:42):
could have been to the surgeon's liking. I'll be honest.
You know, as a surgeon, that is one of the
things that you basically hold your breath. You work really
hard on a particular surgery. Let's say let's call it
a broken bone, for example. You work really hard on
a broken bone. You try really hard to get it together,
put a nice implant, meaning bone, screws, pins, wires, those
(09:02):
sort of things, and you want it to go perfectly,
and you get everything set. You close the skin and
the layers. You bring the patient into post a for
X rays, the post operative X rays. You look and
it's not to your liking, and your your heart falls
and you hang your head because you say, you know,
I tried my best, but these post operative radiographs, these
(09:25):
after surgery X rays, don't look like what I tried.
And all of us have experienced that. But the radiographs
that have been circulating online, I have to say, I
don't think I've ever seen anything like that from anybody,
not obviously for myself or any surgeon, even some surgical
even surgical residents. I haven't ever seen radiographs that look
(09:48):
to be sort of non adherent to just basic surgical principles. Now,
those could have looked good and the dog was running
around and they fell apart, or that they could have
look like that immediately after the X rays were performed
and the patient was brought immediately back into the surgical
theater for revision or a redo of the surgery. That's
(10:09):
very possible. So we don't know the context surrounding those
X rays, but I will say this definitively, those X rays,
looking at the one moment in time without context, they
are disheartening both to mds you know, and of course
veterinary vetinary surgeons written large. So I think number one,
let's talk about the training. Why do you need that
(10:32):
level of training to help dogs and cats and to
basically help fix dogs and cats where you see situations
like that. I'll talk about from my personal perspective, graduating
from vetinary after you know, four years of undergrad graduating
from vetinary school usually at that point where I was
in my career, some people had the opportunity to do
(10:53):
a one year rotating internship, which means you're in an
internship and you are actually getting a taste carees, so
to speak, of all of the different specialties you're in
a general hospital. You are working with internal medicine specialists
a few weeks. Then you jump over to surgery for
a few weeks, and then to dermatology for a few weeks,
neurology for a few weeks, just getting a general flavor
(11:16):
of all of the specialization within vetnory medicine. After that,
you apply for a residency. It's extremely difficult, lots of
reference letters, applications, resumes, cover letters. The anxieties are high.
You apply through a matching program. You either get matched
or you don't get matched. If you do get matched
to your ideal practice, it's like you're celebrating and you're happy,
(11:39):
you know, popping champagne, and if you don't match, it
can be one of the most heartbreaking experiences of your life.
After that, once you start your residency, it's a three
year program. Some people will do four years. After that,
you take in a ridiculously hard surgery board exam, which
has three different parts, hours long, thousands of dollars, and
(12:03):
you prep for that exam sometimes ten to twelve weeks
of time, and it has caused I'll just put it
this way, that experience, that experience, if you talk to
most veterinary surgeons. It sticks with you regardless of whether
you've been practicing twenty or twenty five years. That experience
starting from beginning to and I don't like to say end,
(12:24):
because we're always learning, but that's the beginning, from the
undergrad process, all the way through taking your surgery board exam. Boy,
that level, that that experience, it's I didn't want to
say it's it's like PTSD. No, No, I want to
say it's more. It's more celebratory and more happy than that,
because you know that you've trained hard and worked hard
to be able to have that privilege to work on
(12:47):
animals and fix animals. But I just want to say
that that is the level of training that you are encountering.
That's the level of training that you're in the company
of when you bring your dog or cat or whoever
your animals to a board certified surgeon.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Well, you know this is news, right, this is media,
and so there is some sensationalism that I guess I
bring to this. But I'd like to take a quick
break and then come back and talk about you know
what if veterinarians, let's put the shoe on the other foot.
What if veterinarians did free surgery for people.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
We'll be right back.
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Speaker 2 (14:28):
Welcome back to Doctor Cat Gone to the Dogs, and
I am here with doctor Courtney Campbell, and we are
talking about this news story that broke in which human
physicians were performing surgery on rescue animals and they were
doing so at no charge, and they really wanted to
(14:49):
save the lives of the animals, but things kind of
went wrong, and so I pose the question to doctor Courtney,
just for kind of shock value and to put it
in a different frame of reference for my listeners. What
if veterinarians went to an orphanage and adopted sick children
and started to perform surgical procedures on them. I mean that,
(15:14):
no matter how you really want to see this, this
is kind of one way of looking at what happened.
What do you think, doctor Courtney.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
Well, listen that question you posted as a hypothetical. But
I think when I think about a question like that,
although it's controversial, although it really stimulates thought, it also
has a very personal aspect to me. It also affects
me personally because practicing in Santa Barbara, I actually had
an experience where I saw a dog. And I'll obviously
keep the subjects nameless, but I saw a dog who
(15:44):
was experiencing severe difficulty breathing due to problems in the throat.
And after I dug a little bit deeper as to
the history, collecting history facts details, what is actually happening,
What exactly is happening with this dog? I had learned
that this same dog had visited a different hospital, and
I called that other hospital. I said, what's the history
(16:06):
regarding this labrador, and they said, you know, this dog
was experiencing throat problems and the pet parent had actually
performed surgery on this dog's throat. And I said, excuse me,
They said, yes, this dog was experiencing throat problems at home,
and the pet parent had actually performed surgery on his
own dog allegedly. Now, I'm just going to quote because
(16:29):
this popped up in a news article here where I'm practicing,
and the news article was celebratory and rejoicing in this fact. Now,
there's some glaring erroneous statements in the article. There's a
lot that is neglected to mention, and just some flat out,
you know, factually inaccurate statements in the article. But just
(16:51):
as I'll just quote from the article, the gentleman who
did this said, you know, I've never operated on an
animal before. He says, but I've been in a lot
of the world countries where you have to figure out
how to do medical procedures with makeshift instruments. I've always
been good at figuring out how to make things work.
So I've never operated on an animal before, but I've
(17:12):
always been good at figuring out how to make things work.
My challenge with that personal experience, and then even this
situation and the question that you just post. The problem
with all three of those is that isn't the time
a life, isn't the time to figure out how things
work right? That life is so precious, human animal, whatever
(17:35):
the species. That life is so precious that you know, putting.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Them through what about the dog felt like she was suffocating.
I mean, that's that's terrible.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
It's unbelievably terrible. We actually had to we actually had
to do throat surgery on that dog, and you know,
because the original surgery, as you can imagine, was done incorrectly,
then there was you know, if you're the second person
going into a surgery that's done incorrectly, listen, I'll just
be honest. Doing surgery to begin with is challenging, but
(18:07):
if you're the second person to have to go revise
a surgery that was originally done incorrectly, then it just
makes the scale of difficulty exponentially worse. So that was
a challenge, and then it sounds like ultimately after we
were able to make some revisions for the surgery, the
dog went on to have a decent quality of life
(18:27):
and was able to breathe, but still had some major
issues in terms of his breathing. And the particular gentleman
who allegedly did this surgery was an ophthalmologist had done
a lot of eye surgeries on humans. So that again
is another point that gives me makes me cringe a
little bit because this story that popped up and why
(18:47):
we're having this conversation today, are general human surgeons doing
orthopedic surgery who have no training in veterinary orthopedic surgery.
The story I referenced is an ophthalmologist who's doing throat
surgery on dogs probably, and again I can't speak to it,
but I would assume that once you become that level,
when you have that degree of specialization in your field,
(19:11):
that the familiarity with the anatomy of a dog's trichea
and the structures involved in that is you know, you're
at a distant from you You're distant from that.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So so what about anesthesia. I mean that brings me
to my next issue was pain coverage in anesthesia. This
particular rescue did have.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
A veterinarian there.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I'm assuming that veterinarian was able to obtain control and
an esthetic drugs but in your case, how did they
anesetize and provide pain coverage to that patient? Do you
even know?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
We don't have the details. I mean, you know you
could understand why a lot of the details were hush
hush once they saw the our reaction, once they saw,
you know, how this was being received. You know, I'll
just be honest. You know, there are some people who
believe that if you see something right, if you see
that veterinarian medicine is being practiced, if you see that
(20:03):
it's being practiced to a substandard level of care, if
you see just egregious problems and you don't report them,
and you know about them, and there's a record that
you knew about them and didn't report them, you could
actually be held liable as a veterinarian. So when we
started hearing reports, or when he started, you know, for
lack of a better term, bragging or you know, sort
(20:24):
of declaring that, Hey, i have just recently performed surgery
on my own dog. I'm an optalmologist, I have no
training in this sort of celebratory it caused a lot
of veterinarians to recoil. And seeing that reaction, I think
caused him to be more reticent about providing the details.
Where did you get the propofol, what pain medications did
you use? How did you perform a tracheostomy? According to
(20:47):
the article that I'm reading here, and I'll just reference
it again so that you know I'm not speaking on
a turn, but according to the article, he was sent
a couple of YouTube videos on how to do a
tracheostomy and a dog, and he just were his way
through there. So I mean, there's so many questions regarding this.
But when I see this story that we're talking about today,
I think about that personal experience I had with that labrador,
(21:10):
and it gives me goosebumps, in not in a good way.
It really I shudder to think that this is happening elsewhere.
So I just want to be clear. I think this
is a perfect opportunity. Number One, to talk about training,
and I think that we've done that at least through
my personal experience, because I know that there's people that
have done more. But two, I also want to talk
(21:30):
about the ethical concerns about As you said, mds are
a physicians doing surgery on dogs, and regardless of how
you look at that, those licenses are separate and if
I started to go to an orphanage like you said,
and started to do surgeries on people as a veterinarian,
I'm not too sure how that would be received. I'm
(21:50):
sure there would be an uprising or sort of an outrage.
As a veterinarian doing surgery on people, there should be
that similar level of consideration and that similar level of
thought and discussion about MD's doing surgery on dogs. And
I want to be clear throughout this entire discussion, doctor kat,
I think you and I both agree that, according to
(22:13):
what they say, this group was very well intentioned. Right
do you believe that I do.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I think that they feel like they were saving lives,
and I don't think they gave any thought to all
of these other ramifications, which is why I'm here, because
I think you need to give thought to all of
the ramifications. I refer patients animal patients that I am
legally permitted to practice on. I refer them to a
specialist when I feel like I am not completely capable
(22:40):
or qualified of handling whatever issue it is.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
So I completely agree, and so you feel as a
responsibility like, WHOA, this is out of my wheelhouse. Let
me refer just out of a responsibility of what's the
best course of treatment for this animal, what's the best
course of treatment for this patient, And you find that
it's to refer to and for them to see the
appropriate the appropriate specialist in that discipline. And I couldn't
(23:05):
agree more. I think that, you know, I want to
be one hundred percent clear according to what the organization
is saying. Their whole goal and they were very well intentioned.
They wanted to save lives, They felt like they were
doing the right thing, and absolutely nobody is here to
demonize them whatsoever. However, we have to talk about we
have to be clear about this. We have to be
(23:27):
unapologetic in sort of declaring that in understanding that there
are separations in the training and that there are veterinarians
go through just decades of training in order to be
able to do the same procedures. So what about the
elephant in the room, the fact that surgeries can be expensive?
(23:48):
You know, doctor kat, I think about the fact that
when you have surgeries, I think about medical care in general,
and I think about the fact that healthcare is expensive,
regardless of the species, human, dog, cat, whatever the case is.
Healthcare is just expensive and it's particularly because it's it's
a trickle down effect. Right, we know that obtaining these supplies,
(24:10):
obtaining the leases, obtaining the overhead, having the staff, having
the lights on, just the amount of overhead that's required
to have a very functioning hospital is challenging. Would you
agree with that as a practice on it?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
But what people don't understand is that you and I
cannot afford to do free surgery because we don't have grants.
A lot of rescue groups and humane societies they have
grants where they can do these things, so they still
get paid. But when you and I do things for free,
we don't get paid. And that doesn't mean we don't
(24:44):
do things for free, because oh my goodness, every veterinarian
does things discounted and for free, whether the pet parent
knows about it or not, because we love we love pets.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Well, that's that's perfectly stated. And the truth is, of
course I knew about benefactors, sponsors, but also grants. I
don't think I knew about grants, specifically that rescue groups,
many of them still will get paid through donations through
sponsors through grants, and private practices do not. And that's
(25:16):
why I think that it's so important to talk about
use this opportunity to talk about what can you do
if you are facing a situation where your dog needs
help and it's and you're unable to there's some financial constraints,
or you're budgetarily conscious and you just can't do that surgery.
That certainly doesn't mean that there's no hope. That doesn't
mean that you should give up, But just a couple
(25:38):
of things that pop into my mind. Of course, these
companies that offer credit, a medical credit service pop into mind.
There are hospitals, particularly private practice hospitals, that have set
aside a special fund to help pets in need, and
that is also regulated through a lot of sponsors and donors,
and they'll say, okay, well, if you can't afford this
(25:59):
particular surgery, let me talk to management at this hospital
and see if we can, if there's assistance that we
can provide. Of course, friends and family, of course, go
fund me shelters. And I have volunteered my time and
efforts and expertise to shelters in my local area, and
I did that when I was living in other cities
(26:21):
as well. So I think that there's always, at least
in my perspective, there's always an avenue, there's always an
opportunity where veterinarians are donating, giving away free things forgetting
charges and trying the best to make it as economically
feasible for the pet parent. But keep in mind, if
you get into a situation in which you're doing this,
(26:45):
where you're not charging appropriately for the service that you're providing,
then you can't have a hospital, and then you can't
save pets. Right And I think that you could speak
to this even more fluently than a lot of veterinarians
because as a practice owner, these are a lot of
things that you have to think about on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Absolutely, And I just want to take home message for
all of my listeners to be, you know, whatever you've
got to do to get care for your pet, just
make sure you get that care from a veterinarian. Because
there are species differences. There are things that doctor Courtney
and I had to learn that we're not covered in
(27:22):
medical school, only in veterinary medical school. And you are
putting your pet at risk if you go through these
external avenues, and so just don't exhaust finding an actual
veterinarian to help you. That's really what I want everyone
to take home today.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yes, no doubt, no doubt, it is at the end
of the day, we have a situation where we have
people who we have a one health approach. Everyone you know,
everyone involved in this story, everyone who I mentioned, even
the gentleman who did surge in his own dog, which
is just an egregious wrongdoing an opinion, but everyone involved,
(28:02):
from the people who have done things that we disagree with,
the things that we agree with. I agree with you,
doctor Cat. All of us are doing it because we
love animals, right, and we because we love dogs, we
love cats, and we're doing it for the best intentions.
And sometimes you could have these great intentions and you
can still go astray, either because you're just uninformed or
(28:23):
because you were well intentioned but you just didn't consider
all of the nuances surrounding that particular issue. So I
think at the end of the day, that's what I
want us to take is that this is a one health,
a global sort of comprehensive look at health. Is that
we all care about animals. I consult with or I
(28:44):
have consulted on the internet with mds. We've also we
have mds that are part of our orthopedic mass emails
where will bounce ideas off of different veterinarians and say, hey,
what do you think of this? What do you think
of that? There are human orthopedic surgeons who will add
in their two cents and their expertise. I think it's
really important that we understand veterinarians consult with mds. Mds
(29:09):
consult with veterinarians because we're all focused on how do
we improve the health of us collectively, regardless of the species.
And so I think that there's mds all over the
country doing amazing work, lending their expertise, lending their talents
to help animals, and what we want is to make
sure that it's just done in the right way. So,
if you have an issue and you're concerned about something,
(29:32):
or if you feel like you need a different perspective,
contact your primary care physician, your primary care veterinarian and
ask them who is the most appropriate specialist that I
should see. And regardless of the discipline, whether it's dermatology, surgery, ophthalmology, cardiology,
whatever the discipline is, talk to your primary veterinarian and
ask them, do you think this is a case that
(29:54):
needs to see a specialist, because after doctor Cat and I,
after getting a chance to talk with you, Doctor Kat,
think we've given them, you know, just all pet parents
a good rundown of the extensive training that's involved.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I agree, and I hope that everyone gets the idea
that we're not here to bash anyone for doing anything.
We just want to make sure that pets do not
suffer needlessly because someone was well intentioned but perhaps not
as well trained as we would hope. If that's a
nice enough way to say it, Doctor Courtney, I think
(30:27):
that's a great place to wrap up. I appreciate so
much you being with me here today, and I thought
this was important enough to reach out to you and
have this discussion. Can you tell my listeners other ways
that they might be able to find you or see
some of the things that you speak about.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Oh, most definitely. And I would appreciate anybody who wants
to reach out and just learn more about that med
in general, or bounce ideas off, or just celebrate that
wonderful human animal bond that we have. We have great podcast,
any thing possible. It's a space where we just get
to celebrate all the beauty of that human animal bond
and we get to have some really interesting conversations with
(31:08):
really interesting people about things that are happening all over
the pet space, whether it's deep research or whether it's tech,
or whether it's a human interest story. We get to
just touch base with some great people who are doing
wonderful things in that pet space. Of course on social
media as well, doctor Courtney DVM, on Twitter, Instagram and
(31:29):
of course Facebook as well, So reach out. I'd love
to hear more. I think we could take a deep
dive into even more exciting topics in the future.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
So that's anything possible. Also here on pet Life Radio,
you guys know that I'm doctor Catherine Prim and you
can look me up here on pet Life Radio as
well as social media, Catherine Prim DVM. And I'm always
happy to hear what you think. Okay, well, doctor Courtney,
I am so grateful that you were able to come
on this show today and it was so great to
(32:00):
talk with you.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
You think we covered all those the necessary topics, all
the talking points.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
No, I think that you probably need to come back
on the show in the future.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Well, yeah, it's interesting. You know, it certainly was an
exercise and being able to talk about something with some
level of fluency and take a deep dive into something
that you're trying to be careful and not demonized. I
think that is one of the being exacting with what
you said. I think that's the most challenging part because
you and I I think everybody knows what we're thinking,
(32:32):
like they did, what they what? Are you crazy? But
we can't necessarily go there. So yeah, like I said,
I think it was great and thank you so much.
It was pretty challenging.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Well, a relationship with your own veterinarian is really the
best way to give your dog the best care. So
I think that's the take home message. All right, Doctor Courtney,
I just thank you so much for your time, and
I want to thank my wonderful producer, Mark Winter here
on Doctor Kat Gone to the Dogs on pet Life Radio,
and I want all of my listeners to go out
(33:04):
and raise the rough.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
Let's Talk Pets every week on demand only on Petlife
Radio dot com.
Thank God. This is Pet Life Radio. Let's talk pets.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hey there, dog lovers, Welcome to Doctor Kat Gone to
the Dogs. I'm doctor Catherine prim and I'm a small
animal veterinarian and i have an awesome dog named Sky.
Sky is the standard Poodle that I rescued, and my
relationship in bond with her is part of the reason
I wanted to do this show. Today. I have with
me doctor Courtney Campbell, and he and I are going
(00:46):
to discuss a news story that broke about a rescue
group that had enlisted the services of human orthopedic surgeons
to perform surgeries on dogs and things did not go
exactly as planned, and so it is a bit controversial,
and doctor Courtney and I are going to talk about
(01:08):
what happened and use this as a platform to educate
you about what it means to be a veterinarian and
why choosing a position might not be a great idea
for your pet care. So we'll be right back with
doctor Courtney after these messages.
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Let's Talk pets on Petlife radio dot com.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Welcome back to doctor Kat Gone to the Dogs on
pet Life Radio. I'm here with doctor Courtney Campbell. Hey,
doctor Campbell, how are you.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
I'm absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for having me.
This is going to be a really interesting discussion and topic.
And the truth is, anytime I'm on nine Lives, it's
always an interesting discussion.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Well, it's kind of fun to have you, and you're
one of my favorites. So I reached out to you
because I saw this story and like I said, I
don't really want to point fingers or name names. I
just want to use it as an opportunity to educate
my listeners about what veterinarians do and what's the difference
between veterinarians and physicians and you know, just all the
(03:00):
things that you kind of know about veterinary surgery, so
we could just dive in.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Well, most definitely, and I think that this was thrust
into the public sphere for good reason. It is potentially
a very controversial topic and at the very least, it
stimulates a lot of thought, discussion and some actionable steps
that need to be taken to better define what's happening
and what the rules and regulations are so that we
(03:26):
can wrap our minds around this, and so those who are,
you know, proponents of it, they can find a space
and an avenue to do it. Those who are averse
to it and do not want this to be done,
they can have rules and regulations that limit this type
of activity. To quickly back up for a second, so
that anybody is listening who kind of understands this. There,
(03:46):
that story that broke recently had been under the surface,
under the sort of the public eye, been investigated by
other veterinarians who are looking into this trying to figure
out what exactly is happening with that particular organization, and
that particular organization was their whole goal was to their
efforts was to help dogs who they believed were doomed
(04:10):
and homeless, and they used the term doom meaning headed
for euthanasia, and they saw an opportunity to perform surgeries
to help these dogs, and they went ahead and did them.
There's a major problem with that, particularly in those who
disagree with it, and that is the people performing the
surgeries were not veterinarians. And whether you agree with it
(04:33):
or not, the license to practice medicine on people is
separate from the license to practice medicine on animals, and
the license to be an MD human physician is different
than it is to be a veterinarian. And that distinction,
in my opinion, is there for a very good reason,
but it is there nonetheless, and so that did cause
(04:54):
some degree of consternation among some veterinarians. It caused a
sort of a a vehement defense among those in the organization.
And I agree with exactly what you're saying. I know
that they are, or at least I can assume based
on what they have said in the public sphere that
they're very well intentioned and that they meant well by
(05:14):
what they were doing. And what we need to think
about is even in situations where you have people who
are the most well intentioned, then they can still do
something that's not right. And so I think in this situation,
what we're trying to navigate is what does it mean
to practice veterinary medicine? What does it mean to practice
(05:34):
under the supervision of a veterinarian? And why would you
choose to go to a board certified surgeon over having
an MD or having somebody who's not familiar with who
doesn't have the training perform the actual procedures. So step one,
why go to a veterinary surgeon? What is essentially what's
(05:55):
the big deal? And you'd be surprised that, you know,
when you talk to certain pet parents and you asked
them about the specialties within veternary medicine, a lot of
them are are surprised that the level of specialization has
reached this level of care in the veterinary profession. For instance,
I was just in a pharmacy the other day and
(06:15):
I saw a young gentleman holding his French bulldog and
he was in line to get his medications, and there
were two young ladies who were sitting next to it,
you know, sitting on chairs, and they asked him, oh,
my goodness, that French bulldog you's so cute and just
just sort of overflowing with praise and adoration of how
amazing this French bulldog was. And they said, he said, well,
(06:37):
I'm concerned, you know. He said, I'm concerned about my
French bulldog because I'm not sure he's going to live
too much longer. And their faces immediately dropped. They said, oh,
my goodness, what's going on. He said, he's a heart issue,
you know, it's I feel bad for him. I took
him down to see a cardiologist in LA and he
told me about all the heart problems, and I'm here
to pick up medications for his heart. And they said, goodness,
(07:00):
there's doggy cardiologists. They were just out of their mind,
you know. He said, well, there's doggy surgeons, ophthalmologists, dermatologists,
and they were extremely surprised. So I think step one,
we just need to do a better job in forming
the public of surgical specialization, and then step two, more specifically,
do a better job at talking about the training involved
(07:21):
for a veterinary surgeon.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
So I want to interrupt you really fast because I
want my listeners to understand. The reason I noticed this
story is because there was an image of a radiograph.
It was a post operative radiograph that was circulating on
social media, and the minute I saw it, as a
veterinarian and I'm not an orthopedic surgeon, the minute I
(07:45):
saw the radiograph, I cringed because it wasn't done to
the standards that I was trained, just as a general practitioner.
No doubt Doctor Courtney would have additional thoughts on that,
but it caught my attention. Otherwise I might not have
even thought about this, but the pain and suffering and
prolonged healing experienced by the pet who had this radiograph
(08:10):
just breaks my heart. And so no matter how well
intentioned or how free the surgery is, we have to
think about what that animal went through. And I think
that's why I wanted to kind of talk about this.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, no doubt about it. I mean, listen, I'll be honest,
looking at some of those post op radiographs, it's striking.
It is really really striking, and as you mentioned, heartbreaking.
Of course, I have to put this in context, right,
and I can't necessarily speak with any relative specificity about
those radiographs. They could have been those radiographs after surgery,
(08:42):
could have been to the surgeon's liking. I'll be honest.
You know, as a surgeon, that is one of the
things that you basically hold your breath. You work really
hard on a particular surgery. Let's say let's call it
a broken bone, for example. You work really hard on
a broken bone. You try really hard to get it together,
put a nice implant, meaning bone, screws, pins, wires, those
(09:02):
sort of things, and you want it to go perfectly,
and you get everything set. You close the skin and
the layers. You bring the patient into post a for
X rays, the post operative X rays. You look and
it's not to your liking, and your your heart falls
and you hang your head because you say, you know,
I tried my best, but these post operative radiographs, these
(09:25):
after surgery X rays, don't look like what I tried.
And all of us have experienced that. But the radiographs
that have been circulating online, I have to say, I
don't think I've ever seen anything like that from anybody,
not obviously for myself or any surgeon, even some surgical
even surgical residents. I haven't ever seen radiographs that look
(09:48):
to be sort of non adherent to just basic surgical principles. Now,
those could have looked good and the dog was running
around and they fell apart, or that they could have
look like that immediately after the X rays were performed
and the patient was brought immediately back into the surgical
theater for revision or a redo of the surgery. That's
(10:09):
very possible. So we don't know the context surrounding those
X rays, but I will say this definitively, those X rays,
looking at the one moment in time without context, they
are disheartening both to mds you know, and of course
veterinary vetinary surgeons written large. So I think number one,
let's talk about the training. Why do you need that
(10:32):
level of training to help dogs and cats and to
basically help fix dogs and cats where you see situations
like that. I'll talk about from my personal perspective, graduating
from vetinary after you know, four years of undergrad graduating
from vetinary school usually at that point where I was
in my career, some people had the opportunity to do
(10:53):
a one year rotating internship, which means you're in an
internship and you are actually getting a taste carees, so
to speak, of all of the different specialties you're in
a general hospital. You are working with internal medicine specialists
a few weeks. Then you jump over to surgery for
a few weeks, and then to dermatology for a few weeks,
neurology for a few weeks, just getting a general flavor
(11:16):
of all of the specialization within vetnory medicine. After that,
you apply for a residency. It's extremely difficult, lots of
reference letters, applications, resumes, cover letters. The anxieties are high.
You apply through a matching program. You either get matched
or you don't get matched. If you do get matched
to your ideal practice, it's like you're celebrating and you're happy,
(11:39):
you know, popping champagne, and if you don't match, it
can be one of the most heartbreaking experiences of your life.
After that, once you start your residency, it's a three
year program. Some people will do four years. After that,
you take in a ridiculously hard surgery board exam, which
has three different parts, hours long, thousands of dollars, and
(12:03):
you prep for that exam sometimes ten to twelve weeks
of time, and it has caused I'll just put it
this way, that experience, that experience, if you talk to
most veterinary surgeons. It sticks with you regardless of whether
you've been practicing twenty or twenty five years. That experience
starting from beginning to and I don't like to say end,
(12:24):
because we're always learning, but that's the beginning, from the
undergrad process, all the way through taking your surgery board exam. Boy,
that level, that that experience, it's I didn't want to
say it's it's like PTSD. No, No, I want to
say it's more. It's more celebratory and more happy than that,
because you know that you've trained hard and worked hard
to be able to have that privilege to work on
(12:47):
animals and fix animals. But I just want to say
that that is the level of training that you are encountering.
That's the level of training that you're in the company
of when you bring your dog or cat or whoever
your animals to a board certified surgeon.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Well, you know this is news, right, this is media,
and so there is some sensationalism that I guess I
bring to this. But I'd like to take a quick
break and then come back and talk about you know
what if veterinarians, let's put the shoe on the other foot.
What if veterinarians did free surgery for people.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
We'll be right back.
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Speaker 2 (14:28):
Welcome back to Doctor Cat Gone to the Dogs, and
I am here with doctor Courtney Campbell, and we are
talking about this news story that broke in which human
physicians were performing surgery on rescue animals and they were
doing so at no charge, and they really wanted to
(14:49):
save the lives of the animals, but things kind of
went wrong, and so I pose the question to doctor Courtney,
just for kind of shock value and to put it
in a different frame of reference for my listeners. What
if veterinarians went to an orphanage and adopted sick children
and started to perform surgical procedures on them. I mean that,
(15:14):
no matter how you really want to see this, this
is kind of one way of looking at what happened.
What do you think, doctor Courtney.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
Well, listen that question you posted as a hypothetical. But
I think when I think about a question like that,
although it's controversial, although it really stimulates thought, it also
has a very personal aspect to me. It also affects
me personally because practicing in Santa Barbara, I actually had
an experience where I saw a dog. And I'll obviously
keep the subjects nameless, but I saw a dog who
(15:44):
was experiencing severe difficulty breathing due to problems in the throat.
And after I dug a little bit deeper as to
the history, collecting history facts details, what is actually happening,
What exactly is happening with this dog? I had learned
that this same dog had visited a different hospital, and
I called that other hospital. I said, what's the history
(16:06):
regarding this labrador, and they said, you know, this dog
was experiencing throat problems and the pet parent had actually
performed surgery on this dog's throat. And I said, excuse me,
They said, yes, this dog was experiencing throat problems at home,
and the pet parent had actually performed surgery on his
own dog allegedly. Now, I'm just going to quote because
(16:29):
this popped up in a news article here where I'm practicing,
and the news article was celebratory and rejoicing in this fact. Now,
there's some glaring erroneous statements in the article. There's a
lot that is neglected to mention, and just some flat out,
you know, factually inaccurate statements in the article. But just
(16:51):
as I'll just quote from the article, the gentleman who
did this said, you know, I've never operated on an
animal before. He says, but I've been in a lot
of the world countries where you have to figure out
how to do medical procedures with makeshift instruments. I've always
been good at figuring out how to make things work.
So I've never operated on an animal before, but I've
(17:12):
always been good at figuring out how to make things work.
My challenge with that personal experience, and then even this
situation and the question that you just post. The problem
with all three of those is that isn't the time
a life, isn't the time to figure out how things
work right? That life is so precious, human animal, whatever
(17:35):
the species. That life is so precious that you know, putting.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Them through what about the dog felt like she was suffocating.
I mean, that's that's terrible.
Speaker 5 (17:45):
It's unbelievably terrible. We actually had to we actually had
to do throat surgery on that dog, and you know,
because the original surgery, as you can imagine, was done incorrectly,
then there was you know, if you're the second person
going into a surgery that's done incorrectly, listen, I'll just
be honest. Doing surgery to begin with is challenging, but
(18:07):
if you're the second person to have to go revise
a surgery that was originally done incorrectly, then it just
makes the scale of difficulty exponentially worse. So that was
a challenge, and then it sounds like ultimately after we
were able to make some revisions for the surgery, the
dog went on to have a decent quality of life
(18:27):
and was able to breathe, but still had some major
issues in terms of his breathing. And the particular gentleman
who allegedly did this surgery was an ophthalmologist had done
a lot of eye surgeries on humans. So that again
is another point that gives me makes me cringe a
little bit because this story that popped up and why
(18:47):
we're having this conversation today, are general human surgeons doing
orthopedic surgery who have no training in veterinary orthopedic surgery.
The story I referenced is an ophthalmologist who's doing throat
surgery on dogs probably, and again I can't speak to it,
but I would assume that once you become that level,
when you have that degree of specialization in your field,
(19:11):
that the familiarity with the anatomy of a dog's trichea
and the structures involved in that is you know, you're
at a distant from you You're distant from that.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So so what about anesthesia. I mean that brings me
to my next issue was pain coverage in anesthesia. This
particular rescue did have.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
A veterinarian there.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I'm assuming that veterinarian was able to obtain control and
an esthetic drugs but in your case, how did they
anesetize and provide pain coverage to that patient? Do you
even know?
Speaker 5 (19:42):
We don't have the details. I mean, you know you
could understand why a lot of the details were hush
hush once they saw the our reaction, once they saw,
you know, how this was being received. You know, I'll
just be honest. You know, there are some people who
believe that if you see something right, if you see
that veterinarian medicine is being practiced, if you see that
(20:03):
it's being practiced to a substandard level of care, if
you see just egregious problems and you don't report them,
and you know about them, and there's a record that
you knew about them and didn't report them, you could
actually be held liable as a veterinarian. So when we
started hearing reports, or when he started, you know, for
lack of a better term, bragging or you know, sort
(20:24):
of declaring that, Hey, i have just recently performed surgery
on my own dog. I'm an optalmologist, I have no
training in this sort of celebratory it caused a lot
of veterinarians to recoil. And seeing that reaction, I think
caused him to be more reticent about providing the details.
Where did you get the propofol, what pain medications did
you use? How did you perform a tracheostomy? According to
(20:47):
the article that I'm reading here, and I'll just reference
it again so that you know I'm not speaking on
a turn, but according to the article, he was sent
a couple of YouTube videos on how to do a
tracheostomy and a dog, and he just were his way
through there. So I mean, there's so many questions regarding this.
But when I see this story that we're talking about today,
I think about that personal experience I had with that labrador,
(21:10):
and it gives me goosebumps, in not in a good way.
It really I shudder to think that this is happening elsewhere.
So I just want to be clear. I think this
is a perfect opportunity. Number One, to talk about training,
and I think that we've done that at least through
my personal experience, because I know that there's people that
have done more. But two, I also want to talk
(21:30):
about the ethical concerns about As you said, mds are
a physicians doing surgery on dogs, and regardless of how
you look at that, those licenses are separate and if
I started to go to an orphanage like you said,
and started to do surgeries on people as a veterinarian,
I'm not too sure how that would be received. I'm
(21:50):
sure there would be an uprising or sort of an outrage.
As a veterinarian doing surgery on people, there should be
that similar level of consideration and that similar level of
thought and discussion about MD's doing surgery on dogs. And
I want to be clear throughout this entire discussion, doctor kat,
I think you and I both agree that, according to
(22:13):
what they say, this group was very well intentioned. Right
do you believe that I do.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I think that they feel like they were saving lives,
and I don't think they gave any thought to all
of these other ramifications, which is why I'm here, because
I think you need to give thought to all of
the ramifications. I refer patients animal patients that I am
legally permitted to practice on. I refer them to a
specialist when I feel like I am not completely capable
(22:40):
or qualified of handling whatever issue it is.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
So I completely agree, and so you feel as a
responsibility like, WHOA, this is out of my wheelhouse. Let
me refer just out of a responsibility of what's the
best course of treatment for this animal, what's the best
course of treatment for this patient, And you find that
it's to refer to and for them to see the
appropriate the appropriate specialist in that discipline. And I couldn't
(23:05):
agree more. I think that, you know, I want to
be one hundred percent clear according to what the organization
is saying. Their whole goal and they were very well intentioned.
They wanted to save lives, They felt like they were
doing the right thing, and absolutely nobody is here to
demonize them whatsoever. However, we have to talk about we
have to be clear about this. We have to be
(23:27):
unapologetic in sort of declaring that in understanding that there
are separations in the training and that there are veterinarians
go through just decades of training in order to be
able to do the same procedures. So what about the
elephant in the room, the fact that surgeries can be expensive?
(23:48):
You know, doctor kat, I think about the fact that
when you have surgeries, I think about medical care in general,
and I think about the fact that healthcare is expensive,
regardless of the species, human, dog, cat, whatever the case is.
Healthcare is just expensive and it's particularly because it's it's
a trickle down effect. Right, we know that obtaining these supplies,
(24:10):
obtaining the leases, obtaining the overhead, having the staff, having
the lights on, just the amount of overhead that's required
to have a very functioning hospital is challenging. Would you
agree with that as a practice on it?
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
But what people don't understand is that you and I
cannot afford to do free surgery because we don't have grants.
A lot of rescue groups and humane societies they have
grants where they can do these things, so they still
get paid. But when you and I do things for free,
we don't get paid. And that doesn't mean we don't
(24:44):
do things for free, because oh my goodness, every veterinarian
does things discounted and for free, whether the pet parent
knows about it or not, because we love we love pets.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Well, that's that's perfectly stated. And the truth is, of
course I knew about benefactors, sponsors, but also grants. I
don't think I knew about grants, specifically that rescue groups,
many of them still will get paid through donations through
sponsors through grants, and private practices do not. And that's
(25:16):
why I think that it's so important to talk about
use this opportunity to talk about what can you do
if you are facing a situation where your dog needs
help and it's and you're unable to there's some financial constraints,
or you're budgetarily conscious and you just can't do that surgery.
That certainly doesn't mean that there's no hope. That doesn't
mean that you should give up, But just a couple
(25:38):
of things that pop into my mind. Of course, these
companies that offer credit, a medical credit service pop into mind.
There are hospitals, particularly private practice hospitals, that have set
aside a special fund to help pets in need, and
that is also regulated through a lot of sponsors and donors,
and they'll say, okay, well, if you can't afford this
(25:59):
particular surgery, let me talk to management at this hospital
and see if we can, if there's assistance that we
can provide. Of course, friends and family, of course, go
fund me shelters. And I have volunteered my time and
efforts and expertise to shelters in my local area, and
I did that when I was living in other cities
(26:21):
as well. So I think that there's always, at least
in my perspective, there's always an avenue, there's always an
opportunity where veterinarians are donating, giving away free things forgetting
charges and trying the best to make it as economically
feasible for the pet parent. But keep in mind, if
you get into a situation in which you're doing this,
(26:45):
where you're not charging appropriately for the service that you're providing,
then you can't have a hospital, and then you can't
save pets. Right And I think that you could speak
to this even more fluently than a lot of veterinarians
because as a practice owner, these are a lot of
things that you have to think about on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Absolutely, And I just want to take home message for
all of my listeners to be, you know, whatever you've
got to do to get care for your pet, just
make sure you get that care from a veterinarian. Because
there are species differences. There are things that doctor Courtney
and I had to learn that we're not covered in
(27:22):
medical school, only in veterinary medical school. And you are
putting your pet at risk if you go through these
external avenues, and so just don't exhaust finding an actual
veterinarian to help you. That's really what I want everyone
to take home today.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yes, no doubt, no doubt, it is at the end
of the day, we have a situation where we have
people who we have a one health approach. Everyone you know,
everyone involved in this story, everyone who I mentioned, even
the gentleman who did surge in his own dog, which
is just an egregious wrongdoing an opinion, but everyone involved,
(28:02):
from the people who have done things that we disagree with,
the things that we agree with. I agree with you,
doctor Cat. All of us are doing it because we
love animals, right, and we because we love dogs, we
love cats, and we're doing it for the best intentions.
And sometimes you could have these great intentions and you
can still go astray, either because you're just uninformed or
(28:23):
because you were well intentioned but you just didn't consider
all of the nuances surrounding that particular issue. So I
think at the end of the day, that's what I
want us to take is that this is a one health,
a global sort of comprehensive look at health. Is that
we all care about animals. I consult with or I
(28:44):
have consulted on the internet with mds. We've also we
have mds that are part of our orthopedic mass emails
where will bounce ideas off of different veterinarians and say, hey,
what do you think of this? What do you think
of that? There are human orthopedic surgeons who will add
in their two cents and their expertise. I think it's
really important that we understand veterinarians consult with mds. Mds
(29:09):
consult with veterinarians because we're all focused on how do
we improve the health of us collectively, regardless of the species.
And so I think that there's mds all over the
country doing amazing work, lending their expertise, lending their talents
to help animals, and what we want is to make
sure that it's just done in the right way. So,
if you have an issue and you're concerned about something,
(29:32):
or if you feel like you need a different perspective,
contact your primary care physician, your primary care veterinarian and
ask them who is the most appropriate specialist that I
should see. And regardless of the discipline, whether it's dermatology, surgery, ophthalmology, cardiology,
whatever the discipline is, talk to your primary veterinarian and
ask them, do you think this is a case that
(29:54):
needs to see a specialist, because after doctor Cat and I,
after getting a chance to talk with you, Doctor Kat,
think we've given them, you know, just all pet parents
a good rundown of the extensive training that's involved.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I agree, and I hope that everyone gets the idea
that we're not here to bash anyone for doing anything.
We just want to make sure that pets do not
suffer needlessly because someone was well intentioned but perhaps not
as well trained as we would hope. If that's a
nice enough way to say it, Doctor Courtney, I think
(30:27):
that's a great place to wrap up. I appreciate so
much you being with me here today, and I thought
this was important enough to reach out to you and
have this discussion. Can you tell my listeners other ways
that they might be able to find you or see
some of the things that you speak about.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Oh, most definitely. And I would appreciate anybody who wants
to reach out and just learn more about that med
in general, or bounce ideas off, or just celebrate that
wonderful human animal bond that we have. We have great podcast,
any thing possible. It's a space where we just get
to celebrate all the beauty of that human animal bond
and we get to have some really interesting conversations with
(31:08):
really interesting people about things that are happening all over
the pet space, whether it's deep research or whether it's tech,
or whether it's a human interest story. We get to
just touch base with some great people who are doing
wonderful things in that pet space. Of course on social
media as well, doctor Courtney DVM, on Twitter, Instagram and
(31:29):
of course Facebook as well, So reach out. I'd love
to hear more. I think we could take a deep
dive into even more exciting topics in the future.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
So that's anything possible. Also here on pet Life Radio,
you guys know that I'm doctor Catherine Prim and you
can look me up here on pet Life Radio as
well as social media, Catherine Prim DVM. And I'm always
happy to hear what you think. Okay, well, doctor Courtney,
I am so grateful that you were able to come
on this show today and it was so great to
(32:00):
talk with you.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
You think we covered all those the necessary topics, all
the talking points.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
No, I think that you probably need to come back
on the show in the future.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Well, yeah, it's interesting. You know, it certainly was an
exercise and being able to talk about something with some
level of fluency and take a deep dive into something
that you're trying to be careful and not demonized. I
think that is one of the being exacting with what
you said. I think that's the most challenging part because
you and I I think everybody knows what we're thinking,
(32:32):
like they did, what they what? Are you crazy? But
we can't necessarily go there. So yeah, like I said,
I think it was great and thank you so much.
It was pretty challenging.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Well, a relationship with your own veterinarian is really the
best way to give your dog the best care. So
I think that's the take home message. All right, Doctor Courtney,
I just thank you so much for your time, and
I want to thank my wonderful producer, Mark Winter here
on Doctor Kat Gone to the Dogs on pet Life Radio,
and I want all of my listeners to go out
(33:04):
and raise the rough.
Speaker 6 (33:06):
Let's Talk Pets every week on demand only on Petlife
Radio dot com.
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