📱Unknown Number Collab with Your Bish Therapist (Trigger Warning)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Drama Darling.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Drama, Darling Drama Darling. Hi, friends, and welcome to a
very special collaboration with yours truly, your bish therapist and
our dear friend, Amy Phillips.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Hello, everybody, it's a bish therapist, your bish therapist, and
drama Darling collaboration extraordinary today. Hi Melissa, I'm so excited.
Hi Amy, I.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Am very very excited. Amy messaged me about unknown Number,
which is what we're going to cover today, And when
you texted me that, my head exploded in excitement because
I watched it and it was one of those things
that I felt really compelled and fascinated by. And so

(01:02):
I have four pages of notes and I could talk
about this for twenty years.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, I just feel like really appreciative that you kind
of like let me behind the curtain of the euro
bish therapist oz that you've created, because guys, she sent
me her notes. Okay, so jealous, and so I am.
It's just fun to see how your brain works. And

(01:27):
I've never I have us seen more organized notes in
my life. So pumprehis problem, Well, I wish I had
that problem. This is amazing. Okay. Well, I just feel
like I am you know, on the vander Pump Rules.
How Tom Sandoval has that motorcycle with a sidecar. Yes, yes, okay,

(01:53):
well just picture me in the sidecar. I am Tom
Schwartz and unfortunately you are Tom Zanaval in the scenario,
and it's going to be all about you, and I'm
going to be riding along with you, going, oh, bubba,
you're doing great. Bubbah yeah babba, turn right. So unknown
number now, yes, I have one interesting to say, one
interesting one interesting thing to say about this. I have

(02:16):
one interesting thing to say about this, and that is
this that About a year ago, Lisa Renna starred in
a movie on Lifetime called Mommy Meanest, Mommy Meanest, You're
such a podcaster now you're like you're like not talking
over me, You're like not in your head. You're so funny.

(02:36):
So yeah, she started in this movie and it's based
it's roughly loosely based on this story. So I had
we watched that for my Drama Darling podcast. It was
a Patreon exclusive, and uh I did this with Jamie
Moyer and Angela Quintana and we just had a blast
recapping Mommy Meanist. It was so fun. Lisa Renna was

(02:59):
excellent and we had a great time with that. So
that was my first foray into this story because I
knew it was loosely based on this woman. And that
being said, you can check that out on my Patreon,
patreon dot com slash drama Darling. But also, I'm from Michigan,
so I don't like that Michigan is being represented in
this way as Kendra is from Michigan. So I apologize

(03:20):
to everyone for that. But Michigan is a great place
to be.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
All right, it really is. As a Midwestern gal, I
can attest to that. This is a very usually I
feel like people in the Midwest are very wonderful and
friendly and cordial. So this woman does not represent us, y'all.
Just to be really clear about that, and listen, Amy,

(03:44):
I'm happy to have you in the sidecar. But let
me ask you a quick question. The Mommy Meanest So
someone just talked about that on Jeff Lewis Live. I
think it was Ryan Bailey, and they said that that
it wasn't the best movie was your dare of Mommy?
How dare?

Speaker 1 (04:02):
How dare? He?

Speaker 3 (04:04):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (04:05):
I thought, Look, he's obviously not a lifetime movie connoisseur.
Thank you, connoisseur or anyone who's gonna He clearly doesn't
appreciate the goal that's before him. So I don't know
what kind of rating scale he's on, but it's not mine. So,
I mean, I thought it was great. Obviously, it's a
crazy story, so that in and of itself made it

(04:27):
a very good lifetime movie. You know that it was
based on so I mean, and Lisa Renna being in
it was so fascinating, so I loved it.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
I mean, Lisa Renna is sincerely just a great actress.
She really is. I didn't love her on Housewives, but
I love her in a good lifetime movie, especially the
one that she did with Harry where he was like
a sex addict. I don't remember what the name of
that movie was. Oh, I didn't see that in the movie. Yeah, oh,

(05:00):
and Harry Hamlin played a sex addict and she was
like this long suffering wife and it was it was
a very interesting movie. Of course, I can't remember the name.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
So sure it's probably called sex Addict. My husband, My husband,
my husband, the sex Addict. But you know, yeah, I
think she's a great lifetime movie actress, and I really
appreciate that, and she's a great actress on the Real
Housewives of Beverly Hills. Ha ha. Okay, so all right,
let's get into unknown number.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Okay, let me let me give you all a little
synopsis because and here's what I have to say at
the top. If anyone has not watched this, this contains spoilers,
Like immediately, we're gonna have to talk about what the
twist is, because to talk about this episode, we have

(05:52):
to really talk about, you know, the twist.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
And if you if please go watch it. And if
you don't know anything about it, I am so jealous
because it'll be ann believable reveal.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Oh my gosh. I mean I had to watch it
twice after I did. I watched it the first time
on the edge of my seat, and then after the reveal,
I was like, I have to watch this again from
a new lens, And yeah, of course I did. And
I have a lot to say about that. So tune
out or go watch it if you don't want spoilers,
and then come back, because the one thing about this

(06:23):
show is they missed the opportunity to have a professional
talk about the psychological concepts, which are there's just so
many throughout this whole documentary, and I'm like, that was
such a missed opportunity.

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Did you call Melissa? I yes, I completely agree. I
didn't even think about it. I just immediately thought, I've
got to talk to Melissa. We got to hear what
she has to say. And So this is not the
official Companion podcast to Unknown Number, but I'd like to
say it's the official Companion podcast two Unknown Number on Yeah, Netflix, Netflix, Okay, flex,

(07:06):
So yeah, I shall not wait to hear what you
have to say about our Kendra No boy.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
So here's the synopsis for people who would like that.
This is a true story of Lauren Lacari, featured in
Netflix's Unknown Number The High School Catfish. It does take
place in Beal City, Michigan, and the timeline is from
October twenty twenty to April twenty twenty three that all
this was happening. Thirteen year old Lauren and her boyfriend

(07:36):
Owen McKinney were cyber bullied via an unknown number for
basically two years. After school administrators and local police could
not solve the crime, the FBI were able to solve it,
and we're able to link an IP address to the
phone number belonging to a shocking culprit which turns out

(07:57):
to be Da Da Da Lauren's mother. Can the mother mother,
the mother of the girl who this was happening to.
And the reason why that we have to say that
immediately is that one thing about this documentary that bothered

(08:19):
me straight off the top is once you find out
that it was her mother, and you go back through
those disgusting texts, the sexual texts, all these things, it
is really clear to me that this is a case
where because she's a woman, she's getting special treatment and

(08:40):
she's not getting held accountable in ways that really personally
bug me.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Absolutely, I have the same thought.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Because here's the thing amy as a mom, right, it's like,
you couldn't even imagine something like this happening to your child,
let alone being the one to portrayed it. And so
I feel like what I'm going to talk a lot
about today is what we see and my interpretation of

(09:11):
what I think is going on with Kendra, because in
my opinion, whoever produced this documentary had gave her far
too much grace, and I would argue that if she
were a man sending these sexually harassing texts to thirteen

(09:34):
year old children, do we understand these children were thirteen
and fourteen years old. Okay, it's not like they were
nineteen twenty. I mean even then, it's disgusting.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, So she's sending.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Right, right, and so I think that just at the top,
I'll say, my beef too is with Netflix in terms of, like,
you know, this woman I believe is a predator. She's
extremely manipulative. She has a very colorful psychological profile, which
I'm you know, going to kind of lay out for everybody,

(10:07):
but to give you to break it down a little
bit more so the messages started. Owen and Lauren started
receiving the messages in October of twenty twenty, and Lauren
and Owen were like the quintessential you know couple in
terms of, like I think they met in junior high.
They were friends you know, since like childhood, and they

(10:29):
just had this really sweet love which again it's like
everything about this case, there's just layers and layers of awfulness. Right,
So Lauren and Owen so sweet. They have this relationship,
and then one day October twenty twenty, they start getting
these wild harassing texts. Now, initially the texts were they

(10:53):
would happen consistently, but then there was a period where
they went away for eleven months.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right, And I wanted to ask and you can answer
this later, but just putting that in here for the break.
You know, obviously why was there a break? And I'm
just wondering, was she on medication before this and then
like she stopped and then she started these texts and
then then when there was the break, did she get
back on medication? And then did she get back off

(11:20):
of medication which is why she started again? So you
can throw that in and answer that later, But that's okay.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
I mean, here's the thing. My immediate thought is that
what I'm seeing with this woman is a pervasive pattern
of clinically significant markers that I don't think have anything
to do with medication or non medication, to be.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Honest, Oh my god, really yeah, I don't think so.
Like this type of personality disorder or whatever it is,
the psychosis that it is cannot be fixed with a medication.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
So her not not this level of behavior, this predatory, manipulative,
narcissistic behavior, No medication would not. Like people who have
narcissistic personality disorder, for example, it's hard to treat because
medication is not typically something that is effective. Yeah, and

(12:22):
it's something that you know, people need to want to
come in and get the help that they need. And
let me be clear at the top of the episode,
as everybody knows, our darling Vish is no, I am
not Kendra's therapist. I don't know this family. I am
not diagnosing her. I am making my best assessments based
on her personality type things I've seen in clinical practice.

(12:44):
And then there were a couple of things throughout the
documentary that with my eagle eye I could find things
to kind of back up what I was saying, some
things that came out of her own mouth.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
So okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
So but it's a good question Amy that you post nevertheless,
which is it started and then it stopped for eleven months?
So what on earth was happening in those eleven months
with this woman that she was just like went off
the grid and then she started back up. And here's

(13:21):
what's very interesting to me in terms of the timeline
that I wrote down after she started back up, texting
and harassing her child and her child's boyfriend. When she
started back up, she was very over focused on Lauren
and Owen's relationship. So initially the texts were, you know,

(13:42):
just like horrible and stupid, like you know, he doesn't
want to be with you, and you suck and all
these other things.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Breaking up the right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
But the really really egregious messages, which I will also
give a trigger warning because some of the messages she
sent were encouraging self harm and suicide. So I just
want to be really clear that that's something that we're
going to be talking about too at the top. And
so when Kendra starts back up after the eleven months,

(14:19):
very over focused on their relationship. And then Lauren and
Owen got to the point where they actually did break
up because they were literally being harassed and they thought, well,
maybe if we give this person what they want, they'll
go away. And so what's interesting is after the breakup,
the messages got even worse. And that's when Kendra started

(14:43):
cyberbullying her daughter into telling her an I quote, kill
yourself now, bitch, You are worthless and mean nothing. His
life would be better if if you were dead. You
are the ugliest person I've ever seen. Okay, this is

(15:06):
what this mother was sending to her daughter.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
And I have no idea to me shocking to even
be talking about it and re experiencing the weight of
how beyond comprehension this is your timeline is amazing. Please
pretend I said nothing, go on, Okay.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
No me? Well you have to say it's important, My dear.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
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Speaker 2 (16:54):
And so, but what one thing that the timeline helped
me figure out is do so what we see here
is a behavioral escalation, right, we see an escalation of behaviors,
which is going to be important. And so after fifteen months,
the police, local police got involved, and of course, you know,

(17:14):
here's the funny thing, and this is for people maybe
who you haven't watched it. Here's why this was a
twist because the documentary starts out with Kendra just talking
about we went to the school and we were upset
they weren't doing enough and blah blah blah blah blah,
and then it's like and then so producers lead you

(17:37):
to believe that this is just like a mother who's
upset for her child. And then at the end that's
when you get the real story from Kendra and Lauren
and Lauren's father and it does. I felt as an
audience member, I felt duped and I felt really angry. Yes,
is that how you felt as well?

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Well, you didn't know going into it what this story was, correct,
I mean you had heard Oh my gosh, Melissa, I
can't even imagine that your list have experienced. Okay, I did.
I already knew that it was the mother based on
the Mommy Meanas thing, and I knew about the story,
so I did not know how absolutely tremendously awful those

(18:18):
text messages were. And I also thought at that time,
because in Mommy Mianus, she's setting up bots to write
these messages. So when I'm watching this movie, the documentary,
I'm sorry, I was thinking that she's programmed bots to
send these messages. I never thought for a second that
they were coming from her, that she was authoring them.

(18:42):
And so that is the reveal that blew my ever
loving mind that it wasn't a bunch of computers doing
this or a bunch of phones set up to harass.
They were curated by her. But when you asked me,
did I know? I knew ultimately that it was the mother,
But when I was watching it, I had to question

(19:04):
myself whether or not I even knew the real story,
because I'm like, there's no way that she's in this documentary.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
That's right, And you think to yourself, why the hell
did this predator get the opportunity to pretend for the
first hour of this movie that she was not involved?
I didn't like that. Wow, everything about this as a therapist,
as a woman who loves children and my niece is

(19:34):
a nephew, as a person in the world, I just thought,
whoever did this dropped the ball so hard that I
had a hard time getting over it.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Wow, I had a hard good point. Yeah, that's a
great point. So anyway, now I'm pissed.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think, you know, and I went on read it,
and obviously social media and a lot of people feel
the same way we do in terms of like, why
was she given this opportunity to lie and tell this
revisionist story, which, as I watched it again, that's what
royally pissed me off when I watched it the second time,
because I knew since I knew, and then I'm watching

(20:14):
it and I'm like, I don't like that she was
given this grace. Again, if she were a man who
were sending thirteen year old children, especially harassing text. Do
you think they would have said, Okay, sir, let's just
pretend for an hour that you're not the culprit, right, Okay,
I'm gonna stop.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
For I don't. I don't. There's no way they would
have It's our culture wouldn't have been able to handle that.
And yet that's exactly the woman. We were able to
handle that, so much so that I was pissed as
it is, and I didn't even notice. I didn't even
think about the level and which how wrong it was

(20:52):
to do what they did by allowing her to be there. Okay, Yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
I think it just speaks to when women have cited pathology.
So psychopathology is a broad term. For you know, when
you hear the term sociopath psychopath, what that is is
saying is that people who have kind of antisocial personality disorder.
The one characteristic of sociopathy is lack of empathy. And

(21:19):
I think, you know, for me, the one thing. You know,
we're going to go into the why in a minute,
but for me, that's one thing I really want people
to pay attention to as I'm talking about all of
this stuff, right, Like, how little empathy you would have
to experience for another person to perpetrate these crimes for

(21:41):
years and years on end. I just want people to
keep that in the back of their brain.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
So the FBI finally got involved after local police couldn't
figure it out. And the reason local police couldn't figure
it out is because Kendra is an extraordinarily good manipulator.
Women definitely tend to get away with more than men
when they have psychopathology because they can be more sympathetic

(22:10):
to the untrained eye, and in fact, when they're at
the end. You see the bodycam footage of when the
local police went to talk to her and they gave
her graces that no person on earth would have received.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Now, was that was that for the purpose of getting
a confession out of her?

Speaker 2 (22:34):
I don't think. So, Okay, here, you know, I'll tell Okay,
let's go back to that, because I don't want to
get everyone confused and be all over the place.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
We can hit that later, okay, Okay.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
So then in April twenty six, twenty twenty three, Kendra
did go to court and was sentenced for two counts
of stalking a minor only and August eighth, for she
was released from jail and now she is just living
in the world absolutely no consequences. And this is to

(23:10):
me is a psychologically dangerous person who she'll get herself
in trouble again. I don't know how, but someone of
this level who does things like this again, if she
were a man, I think it'd be treated more seriously.
Why isn't she on Megan's law? Why isn't she a
sexual predator? Like so let's get into kind of not

(23:34):
only exactly what she did, but I also made a
list of other things that Kendra did, which because it
speaks to her pathology. Right, So, not only did she
send all these texts, which some of them will read
in just a minute, she lost both of her jobs
and didn't have a job for a full year, but
was lying to her husband and her family that she

(23:55):
was working. That's super significant. What are you doing with
your time? And I wonder if that has something to
do with the eleven months of gap. I don't completely know.
She also Kendra framed and harassed Laurence friends and classmates,
Adriana Owen Chloe. She ruined these children's lives. It wasn't

(24:20):
just her daughter, and it wasn't just her daughter's boyfriend.
Remember she framed a girl on the basketball team, she
set up another one of her friends. Of course, she's
sexually harassed underage children, which again it makes me rage
that she was not given consequences for this. And the
last thing she did was she made a false insurance
claim that her house had been hit by lightning, and

(24:44):
then she just went ahead. Classic Kendra. She went ahead
and pocketed that money and then stopped paying the bills,
which led the family to get evicted, which is also
known as financial abuse.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Oh right, right, So this.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Woman checks every single box lack of empathy, financial abuse,
sexual harassment, psychological abuse. It's just oh, it's wild, okay.
So imagine being a teenage girl and suddenly receiving texts
from an unknown number, sometimes at a rate of forty

(25:24):
two point fifty per day. For two years, she received
texts as I read, you're the ugliest person I've ever seen.
You're worthless and to me nothing, Kill yourself, jump off
a bridge. His life would be better if you were dead.
And the last one, this is interesting, ugly skank, you
trying to get attention. Fuck off? So I started that,

(25:47):
And here's why I started that. People who have underlying
clinically significant pathology will always tell on themselves if you're
listening close enough and you know what to catch. And
so what I think is really significant about this is
she is angry at her child for the attention her

(26:08):
child is receiving. And I believe that she part of
this was to gain attention for herself, which you know.
So here's Can I share what I think is going
on with Kendram?

Speaker 1 (26:25):
Absolutely? Yes, please, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
So this is going to be a long one. First
of all, we see a lot of ego, narcissism, control,
and power. So what predators do. And I'm going to
keep calling Kendra a predator because make no mistake, she
is a predator. Hurting Lauren kept hurting her daughter. Lauren
kept her scared and dependent and easy to manipulate. That

(26:53):
is right out of the abuser's handbook, right, make people isolated,
dependent so that they can leave, or that they feel
like they need you. So I feel that it was
like two birds, one stone with Lauren. Part of it
was for attention. And during the documentary they talked about

(27:14):
Munchausen syndrome.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Okay, digital Munchausen, yeah, right, And.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I wanted to be clear about some of that, because okay,
here's the thing with Munchausen syndrome, Munchausen syndrome, it's no
longer called that anymore. And the reason why is Munchausen
syndrome was named after this guy, Baron Munchausen, who was
just like told tall tales and was just kind of
like a goofy, you know. He was like the town

(27:41):
tall tale guy, right, And so when we name something
like a disorder in psychology, you wanted to have a
little bit more like basis to what it.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Actually is se person that affiliated with.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Exactly, which is like, he just told a lot. He
just talked a lot of shit like the it's not
a reason to name something after him.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
But anyway, I walk a lot of much. I named
in the DSM five or three, I don't know anyway.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah five t are you're good? Maybe maybe in six,
I don't know. So Munchhausen syndrome is now technically called
factitious disorder because it's just more specific about what's going on.
So there's two things. You could call it digital factitious disorder.
It is also called Munchausen by Internet, which is MBI

(28:33):
for short, and so but the right Munchhausen by Internet
was first identified by doctor Mark Feldman in actually the
year two thousand and He described it as the misuse
of Internet groups by offering false stories of personal illness
and crisis to garner attention. So it's essentially the online
expression of what was happening with Munchausen syndrome, which, to

(28:56):
be clear, is that it occurs when someone consciously feigns
an illness or induces symptoms, and it's if it's of themselves,
then it's just factitious disorder. If it's on someone else,
like for example, gypsy Rose Blanchard, She's a great example
that was factitious disorder imposed on another. Okay, that's what

(29:19):
you call it when you do that to a child.
And so although the you know, Internet is vast and
you know there's a lot there's research behind this, it
actually is one of the most under research psychopathologies. And
so I was just trying to bone up on it

(29:40):
a little bit. But the long and the short of
it is that this factitious disorder digital whatever you want
to call it, it's a type of online deceptive behavior
that involves falsely occupying the sick victim and or hero
roles causing emotional distress to those who are duped.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
So that makes a lot of sense, Amanda. That's like
all of the did you do did you hear? Did
you oh? Yes? Okay? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Interesting, Yes, it is very interesting.
And so what I think this is saying is that
part of Kendra wanted to be in a hero role
even though she was the one perpetrating the abuse on
her child. And so for me, it for sure falls
under a factitious disorder imposed on another. However, because of

(30:31):
the aforementioned narcissism, lack of empathy, ego power, and control,
there are also more devious things at play, I believe.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Wow, okay, yes.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
So I think that my interpretation is that Munchausen syndrome
or factitious disorder imposed on another is the vehicle that
she used to get attention and to manipulate people. Because
it was also as much about manipulating others. She wanted
to be in a hero role for her child and

(31:06):
her family, but also for her community and for Owen's parents.
And you know, she was a coach and a pta
mom and all these things. Yeah, right, so she was
feeding her sick ego, but also so I think the
Munchausen was the vehicle she used to get attention and manipulate.
But the narcissism and the ego, the need for control, admiration,

(31:29):
and power is really what drove her.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Bow wow, dang, Melissa, drop the mic. Wow. Why didn't
this happen sooner or before? I mean, why all of
a sudden did this start happening when her daughter turned
Lauren turned twelve or thirteen? You know why? Or is
it just that we just don't know what she was doing?

(31:52):
Is it that she found a new vehicle? Was there
something earlier that we don't know about.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, So those are all great questions that I asked myself.
I have a theory now. Kendra said in her talking
Head interview when she was giving all those fake tears
that I just, you know, I'm gonna be honest, I
just can't stand this woman, and I'm trying to be
really respectful and responsible, but I it just makes me
so angry. So one thing that she said that gave

(32:21):
me a little bit of a clue is that she
claims that she had childhood trauma and that when she
was seventeen she was sexually assaulted, and she claimed that
that was the reason why I say bullshit.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
Okay, because I like, why is she that's her excuse,
That is her excuse, that's.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Her excuse she has. Kendra has nothing but excuses. She's got.
She owned nothing, she acknowledged nothing. And I'll go into
that more in a minute. But no, because here's the
one thing I know for sure is that when someone
is sexually abused or perpetrated on, they can become perpetrators

(33:04):
because of that abuse. That can happen unfortunately. Right, However,
most trauma survivors, people with mental health issues, would rather
die than harm someone they love. So for me, her
little excuse just falls flat because again, it's not like
she made an oopsie. She's sexually harassed, cyberbullied and psychologically

(33:28):
tortured her child, ruining her child's life, destroying her marriage
and everyone in her path. That's not because you were
assaulted when you were seventeen.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
Sorry, yeah, no, Nope, it doesn't. It doesn't end up.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
No. And also I think it's insulting to survivors, right
because it's like, we don't do that, you know, Like No,
But one thing she said in her talking head, and
I have it underlined, is she said I wanted to
try to control the outcome of her journey, and I
quote that's what she said, and then she tried to

(34:05):
couch it with I wanted to keep her close and
I was scared to let her grow up. Okay, no, no, no.
The first also that she said right right, absolutely, oh, positively,
it's saying like, oh, I just loved her, and it's like, right,
you didn't love this child. You abuse this child disguised
as love. That's not love, it's abuse. But when she

(34:28):
said I wanted to control the outcome of her journey,
that was truth. I can tell you that was truth
because at the end of the day, what this woman
wanted was control over her child, control over her child's life,
control over her child's body, because she made a lot
of really disgusting comments about her body. So if I can,

(34:50):
if I may be so bold, now, I'm going to
be honest. I'm going to share some of these texts
that are from the movie, their texts that she sent.
They are very disturbing and they are graphic, so please
use your discretion as you listen.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, okay, the.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Sexual nature of these text messages not only suggests everything
that I just said, but it suggests a sexual preoccupation
with underage children. I said what I said, and this
is some of the things that she said to her child.
It's obvious he wants me, so Kendra texted her daughter Lauren,

(35:30):
it's obvious he wants me, which is Owen her boyfriend. Okay,
he laughs, smiles, touches my hair. You are a sweet girl.
But I know I can give him what he wants. Sorry,
not sorry, these are tame. Owen loves me, and I

(35:51):
will always be the girl he loves. He will be
with me while your lonely, ugly ass is at home.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Then it then it transitions. This is when they get
really disgusting. Fuck fucking trash bitch. Don't Efen wear leggings. Eight.
No one want to see your anoraksik flat ass. Yeah,
Owen and I, this is really disgusting. Owen and I
down to suck fingerfuck his dick and fingers my pussy

(36:25):
and mouth.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
She doesn't even make sense. She just makes zero sense.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Right, And then there's a There's a couple more because
I really want to hammer this point home that this
is not someone who is deserving of a single ounce
of empathy or understanding. Okay, this is a person who
should be on a list for the rest of her
damn life. She then said, my fucking tits in his face,
fucking make him horny, make it cream.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Oh, it's disgusting. That's why I thought these were bots.
I'm like, nobody's who's coming up with this stuff? You know,
That's why I thought. When I discovered it was her
doing that, I'm like, how are you even you? She's sick?
All right, go on, yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Number eight he wants sex, BJ's and making out. He
don't want your sorry ass. And then the last one
she said to her daughter was no dude ever touching
that pussy, you nasty slut.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Oh wow, she's so disgusting.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
Okay, right, And one thing I should note is that
they interviewed Owen's mom, who, by the way, was friends
with Kendra, you know, because they were the parents of
the kids going through this.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
When the officer or the investigator asked her, do you
think this could be Kendra something along those lines, and
she immediately said no, right, because.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
That's what is so dangerous about someone like Kendra is
that they have the ability to be so predatory and
have such a good mask that you know, there are
people who when you see them out in the world,
they're very sick, but you don't know it to look
at them, and that's what's scary. So Kendra had this mask,

(38:11):
and of course it slipped and it just kind of
got out of control. But it does speak to the
very devious nature because she's typing all of these Like
the police figured out she was using an app to
like change her number or whatever, but she was typing
all of these out with her own fingers and sending
them to her child, her fourteen year old child.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
I can't even I still can't. I'm in denial about this, well.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Right, because any good, normal human being is like this
is it would be unconceivable amy to think that a
mother right could do something like this.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, that's why I have That's why I have so
many questions about how it went from like nothing as
far as we know, to this.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I honestly, my honest thought is that think about when
kids are thirteen, what starts to happen. They start to
get more social, they get they get puberty, they want
to be out of the house, they don't need their
parents as much. Everything changes. I think that again, what
Kendrick said at the end, I wanted to try to
control the outcome of her journey. I think that's what

(39:23):
started this because up until thirteen, Like, I'm going to
use the example of narcissistic mothers, and I feel like
people listening to this are going to love this. So
narcissistic mothers are mothers who are the pta moms. They're
super involved, they're coaches, they're outside of the four walls

(39:44):
of the home. They are very involved in their child's life.
But when you get home and you close the door,
it's suddenly it's very different because they want people and
the community to think that they are this good, amazing mom,
but they're not actually interested in meeting their child's needs.
It's really about their needs for attention. Correct and so.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Can I yes, hate, I don't think I'm gonna interrupt
you anymore, Okay, but just one last thing. So that's
what changed when she turned thirteen. I get that. But
if somebody has this serious of a psychosis, is it

(40:29):
can't just be buried for thirteen years since she's had
her child or since she's been married. So the psychosis
had to have been coming out in other ways. How
come it hasn't been seen in extraordinary ways like this.
If it's this bad, that's what I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
So one thing I will say is it's not psychosis.
And here's why people who have psychosis Legitimately, their brains
are tricking them, lying to them. That is a very
legitimate thing that people experience. Her behaviors tell me she's
not psychotic at all. She made the decision day after day,

(41:11):
every single text that she sent, every time she did it.
She made hundreds of thousands of decisions. That is the
opposite of psychosis, that is personality disorder. But it's still
a good question, right, how did she keep this under
wraps for so long? Okay, well, here's what I would argue.
She had enough power and control over Lauren until she

(41:36):
turned thirteen to satiate some of those needs for power
and control. She also had a husband who, unfortunately, it
seems like he kind of just let her write. He thought, oh, well,
you're going to take care of the finances, I'm going
to work, I'm going to let you do your thing.
She picked him out. I believe as a victim, like

(41:57):
you have to pick people who you can get away
with something. So what this tells me is that I
would guarantee that this has been a lifelong issue. And
what happens is as people get older, if you don't
address the issue, it is going to get worse and
worse and worse until a crisis kind of happens. And
so I just think the underlying psychopathology became so significant

(42:25):
for a multitude of reasons. A. Her growing up. B.
She had this weird issue with her job, whether she
had it or she didn't, So there were signs that
there was other things going on, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Okay, right, yeah, but this is to go this right far.
It's like, what's what I don't like? How was she
not already like in jail, arrested before she she was?

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Oh right, right right? Well again, this is how amy
you saw her. She looks like your typical middle aged woman.
She was very well not convincing to me because I've
seen a million people like her and she cannot fool me.
But you know her crocodile tears and her woe is
me and her boo whoo. Women who have psychopathology will

(43:12):
get away with much more than men do. I have
seen that time and time again. They are take longer
to get diagnosed, They take longer to have consequences because
when again, when the officers come and you see the
body cam footage, officers are they literally politely ask her
for her phone and she was just like, oh, I

(43:34):
have just the one, and they just took her word
for it until the husband got home and he was like, oh,
she's got another.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, and they have the virtue for it. No, it
sure doesn't.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, thank you, right. And then there was something else
the officer said, I wrote it here because it was
so weird, is that the police lied to Lauren and
they made excuses for Kendra during that bodycam footage. You know,
they were like, well, Lauren, you know your mom didn't

(44:05):
start because like Kendra tried to say that she didn't
start it, but she continued it laughable, patently false, laughable right, laughable. Yeah, please,
And it was also proven and correct by FBI, who
actually you know, like they knew what they were doing
and they're like, no, it was her this whole time.
So the point is is that she has pathological lying,

(44:29):
don't I don't think she knows how to be honest.
And then you know, when the police, so they tell
Lauren they made excuses for Kendra. And then one thing
that really really bothered me was that when police went
to talk to Kendra and Lauren was there, You're talking

(44:50):
to a perpetrator and a victim. They did not separate them.
They allowed Kendra to use Lauren as a human fucking shield.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Yes, oh my god, you're right. That was really my
skin was crawling during that moment.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Right because you know what, So what Kendra did was
when the police told Lauren that it was her mom,
Kendra went over and hugged Lauren. And I'm like thinking
that to me, out of that whole movie or documentary,
that one scene stuck in my cross so bad because
it's so clinically significant, because it tells you Kendra doesn't

(45:26):
give a shit what Lauren wants. She doesn't care how
Lauren feels, she doesn't care what she wants. She probably
doesn't even know how she feels or what she wants.
It's all about Kendra. And then Kendra was like, well,
I can't leave her, and it's like they should have
been separated and interviewed separately. She should not have been
allowed immediately, not been allowed to put her hands on

(45:49):
her child and children and youths should have been called immediately.

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Speaker 2 (47:44):
So you know, one thing that also really frustrates me
is that this child, Lauren, who is a victim, was
not She was first of all, failed by everybody. She
was failed by her mother, she was failed by law
enforcement in the ways that I explain to you. None
of that should have occurred, and the legal system didn't

(48:05):
do much better. After the investigation, Kendra pleaded guilty to
two counts of stalking a minor, and she was sentenced
to a maximum of five years in prison, but she
was released in twenty twenty four. She's on supervised parole
until February twenty twenty six. And I think that given
the severity and the number of messages and the amount

(48:28):
of people's lives that she ruined, I think she should
have served more time, and she should have had a
psychological assessment. Now I can't say for sure that they
didn't do one, but this woman should not be released
onto the streets until that they can assure that she's
not a danger to self or others, because at this

(48:48):
point we know, unfortunately jail there's no rehabilitation there, especially
with someone who barely even admitted what she did. She
still made a million excuses, and then so legal system,
law enforcement, her mother, and then I believe Netflix completely
screwed this girl over. It was the Kendra Show. It

(49:10):
wasn't about Lauren, who was the victim who literally this
child was so traumatized holding back tears as she's talking
about this. I just wanted to give her such a
big hug, and I just thought, I just feel like
everyone failed this girl.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
They did, and I'm wondering how you felt about the dad.
Do you feel like the dad failed her too? Because
when he ended up coming when he was told the
news about it, the texts coming from Kendra. When he
came home, he went inside, and when he confronted Kendra,
he's talking about the jobs. He didn't lose his mind

(49:48):
over her being responsible for everything that has happened with
the texts. He didn't even address that. He was talking
about the jobs in the house. That blew my mind,
and he didn't even go over to his daughter like
so to me, I was pretty lost on the dad too.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I couldn't agree more. And in fact, in the documentary
there was a couple I think it was Chloe's mom
and dad or Adriana's mom and dad. I forget exactly
who it was, and the parents both said he knew
about it. Allegedly, they think that the dad knew about

(50:28):
it and now he's pretending to be a victim.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
I didn't remember hearing that wow okay.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Oh yeah, because she said it with her full chest
and her husband was like, that's my woman, and I
was like, I remember that part.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
See I remember that part, and I remember them saying
that the wife, Like you said, I don't know if
it was Chloe or whose mom, but she was like
I knew it was her, Kendra the whole time, and
nobody believed me in the law enforce, the law enforcement,
the local police completely disregarded that entirely. I did not

(51:08):
hear her say about how he knew. Wow, Okay, that's
news to me.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
And here's the thing, and that's her belief, and she's
close to the situation, and I'm not so I tend
to she seems to be the only one who has
some clear sight about this. Yeah, but I do agree
with you that her dad let her down too, because
he knew that they were having financial issues and that's

(51:32):
when they had to move out of the place they
were and they were going from place to place to place. Okay,
So if you know that your wife has bungled the
finances so severely, why have you not stepped in? Why
have you not? I think with her? And again, this
is why maybe he was a good victim, is that

(51:53):
or you know, possibly participated in this. I just think
he had his head in the sand, ignored a lot
at best and at worst.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
And maybe a little bit more, which is neglect on
a whole serious level.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Correct, I mean, this woman has two phones. You never
checked one. You never thought, oh, my daughter's being harassed,
and she had Who has two phones unless you're like
a drug dealer or I don't even know who the
hell has that, or Riley Burris because Riley had a
couple of mounds.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
I'm just gonna say, there was somebody on a show
and I wasn't gonna be able to get there. Thank you,
lest you Riley yet.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
So I definitely think that for sure her dad let
her down too, And I was shocked, like you said that,
he was more focused on the job than he was
about you did that. If someone had did that to
my niece, police would have had to chain me to
the goddamn wall to I would have ripped her ass apart.

(53:01):
And he's just like the jobs, the jobs, And it's
like your daughter is sitting here completely dissociated, completely checked out.
So that's yeah, absolutely, And that's how I can tell
that she really is a victim of a lot with
this family is because she's so disconnected from her emotions.
She's so dissociated that that was hard hard for me

(53:25):
to watch because I just she deserves so much better
than that. Okay. So another thing that I wanted to
speaking of Lauren and her mom, the one thing that
I wanted to address amy was that people were talking
about how could Lauren still want a relationship with her mother? Okay,

(53:47):
So I'm here to answer that the answer is trauma bonding.
So trauma bonding is a psychological response to abuse and
occurs when the abused person forms a connection or relationship
with a person who abuses them, And so it complicates
things when that person is a parent, like our parents.
There are only two people in this world who are

(54:07):
supposed to love us and conditionally, and those are our parents.
And when that doesn't happen, we don't stop loving our parent,
we stop loving ourselves. And unfortunately, a shitty parent is
better than no parent. And one thing I can tell
you for sure is that teenage girls need their moms,
and if you happen to have a narcissistic mom who
is just not capable, you're gonna take whatever the hell

(54:31):
you can get. I don't believe that Lauren understands the
mechanisms behind this. I don't think many people understand it,
but I noticed it immediately, which is when when the
producers asked her, like, what do you think about people
who judge you for having this relationship? And she started
to tear up, but she does this thing where she
kind of tries to swallow it, which tells me that

(54:53):
she was never allowed to the time and space to
have her own emotions. Is She cried and she you said,
you know, I think people won't understand, but I don't care.
And it's like, think about the horrible situation this child
is in. Okay, her parents are now divorced, her mom
went to jail. I sincerely believe a it's trauma bonding

(55:16):
because you guys have to remember too. Is that the
severe manipulative nature of Kendra? I E I'll give you
another example of this. When Kendra was in prison. Did
you see the emails that she was sent?

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Yeah, why didn't you get back to me? Frownie face.
I'll forgive you. Wow. That that manipulation, Oh my god,
that sent me to the moon. I was so angry
just seeing that. I was like, you're manipulating her and
scolding her after what you did, and she knows it's diabolical.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Oh, that's that's exactly it. Amy, It is diabolical. This
is not a mental health issue. This is not a
poor me. You know, I had a history of abuse.
This is not that this woman is a monster. She
is an absolute monster and you know. And so speaking
of that, there was a couple of things, a couple

(56:15):
of notes that I wanted to say when she was
after the big reveal, when she was doing this talking head,
there were a couple of major things that I noticed.
Number One, people who have psychopathology engage in something called
impression management. Impression management is where you care so much

(56:36):
about what other people think that you want to manage
their impressions of you, and especially with law enforcement. Right
and so Kendra said to the people who were interviewing her,
she said, you guys are going to think I'm a
crazy lady. And I know that didn't seem like a lot,
but I'm like, that is impression management right there. It's

(56:59):
not about her daughter, it's not about her family, it's
not about the kids' lives who she ruined. All she
cares about is what people think of her, which.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Is ironic when you do something like that. How could
she do something like that if she cares so much
about what people think of her?

Speaker 2 (57:18):
I know that's that's the rub, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
It doesn't even make sense, like I mean, it does
make sense because of everything you said, but it just
because you kind of have to compartmentalize each psychological issue.
I don't know I'm using the words right, but you
have to take them separately in a way, and then
you've got this, you know, banquet of problems with this lady.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Literally, yes, literally of very severe problems. So the one
thing she said is that I noticed she has a
tendency of when she's lying, she says the word honestly.
So I'm going to give you an example, okay, And
that is something again. People when they have pathology, they

(58:06):
have so much ego in narcissism that they think they're
smarter than people and that they won't be found out.
But they but they overestimate themselves and they underestimate other
people like myself, which is just funny. It's kind of
the nature of a narcissist. But she said, Lauren knows

(58:27):
she's small and petite, and I may have picked up
on some of her insecurities with her appearance, but honestly,
the messages weren't targeted at her insecurities. And then she
tried to claim that this bullshit was.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
About her because she's.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
An apparently so, and I'm like, you struggle with some things,
but anorexia isn't one of them. You know, when she
is texting her daughter, no one wants your flat anorexic ass.
That's not I may have that you did. You knew

(59:08):
your daughter's weaknesses, her insecurities, her soft points, and you
manipulated and pressed on every single one of those for
your own benefit. And then there was another time where
she said, honestly, oh and this, oh, this was what

(59:29):
was insane too, Okay, Kendra cried discussing her love for
her child and not wanting her child to be sexually
abused like she was. But you sexually harassed your own child.
So what are you even talking? You know what I'm saying.
It's like, I think what you're saying, Amy, is that
none of this makes sense. And to healthy, loving, good people,

(59:53):
I could explain this till the cows come home, and
it isn't going to make sense because you're a healthy,
loving person who loves your child and would rather die
than see harm come to her. And unfortunately, there are
a lot of parents, mothers out there who are really
scary people, and sometimes it doesn't get found out. There

(01:00:17):
are people who grow up with mothers like this, and
then it's not until they're middle aged and they start
to tell people, and then people are like, wow, I
had no idea. It's all about that mask. It's all
about that mask that these predators wear. And so you know,
for me, that's kind of most of what I wanted

(01:00:37):
to talk about here, but it's just so intense.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Her cousin, her cousin. When she got on the screen,
I was like, let's go, let's get down to what
you know. All we got was she really likes the limelight.
She really likes attention. That's really all we got. We
didn't get anything else from her. I was like, right,
you're supposed to be the key to the truth what

(01:01:04):
happened in her childhood? What else did what else did
she do that was diabolical when you were younger, She
had to have done something. She had to have shown
you this side of her other than just wanting attention,
like she had a great thing and that I don't
understand that. I don't understand, okay so much.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Well, let me explain. So this is where I think
Netflix dropped the ball because that's where a professional would
have come in clutch in terms of like, for example,
her cousin, she's not a professional, she's a regular person.
So when the Netflix producers are asking her she's a
lay person, she doesn't know. She's like, I don't know.

(01:01:44):
She liked attention and blah blah blah. But like, how
well do you really know your cousins growing up? How
well do you really know someone? And what I can
tell you is you can be married to someone, a
family member and have no idea how diabolical somebody is.
Is if sometimes you're not a professional and you don't
know what to look out for. Because I agree with you,

(01:02:05):
this is more than she just liked attention. This is
more than she had a history of childhood trauma. This
is more than that. But what I would have loved
is for a professional to come in and take what
the cousin said, and take what the police said, and
take what people said, and weave, like I am, kind
of weave this tapestry of this is how this happens,
and this is what this looks like. I think the
show could have gone from amazing to like it could

(01:02:29):
have gone to another level had they done that. But
this comes back to my first criticism, which is I
think Netflix or producers let this woman off the hook
time and time and time again, and I just am
not here for it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Yeah, they wanted to get what they want. They were
selfish about what they wanted to get from her, which
is they wanted her to be the laughing stock. They
wanted her to be in on this twist for the storyline.
They wanted that, you know, for the sake.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
For the entertainment value. Correct. So again Lauren was let
down by her parents, the legal system, law enforcement, Netflix,
and the entertainment industry. They use this girl's literal life,
this trauma. She will never be the same when you
experienced trauma like this when brain, your brain is still growing,

(01:03:24):
which research suggests it's We used to think it's up
until age twenty five, and now there's research that suggest
if you're neurodivergent, it's actually closer to thirty. So you're
basically talking about a child's brain developmentally speaking.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
It.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
Enduring all of these things. And she I can tell
that she's going to have psychological, long lasting impacts forever
for the rest of her life. And she was just
done dirty by every single person, and I just I
don't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
Now, when she got out of prison, she's not allowed
to see her mother. And is that because of the
law or because of I mean, is there a restraining order?
Is that because the law or is that because that
is what the father asked to do? And if that's
the case, will she be able to see her when
she turns twenty one if she wants to?

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
So what I think? And I would have to do
more research on this, which I should have but I forgot,
which is she cannot have contact now because she was
found guilty of stalking, and so I don't believe that
there is like a protective order, but I do believe
that it's in her whatever you want to call that,

(01:04:43):
her probation terms agreement to not be able to have
a relationship with her now. But absolutely as soon as
Lauren turns eighteen or twenty one, at some point, she's
going to have to make those choices. Do I want
to to continue to have contact with my mom? To
think for a.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Second, hope that she doesn't I know, but.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Think about if Lauren decides to get engaged, get married,
have a baby. These are milestones that we need our
mom for and so unfortunately, I think for Lauren, her
toughest days are ahead in terms of grief and loss
and processing that the person who's supposed to love you
the most in the world hurt you more than anybody

(01:05:26):
else could. I think that this is going to take
a long time for her to sort out, and I
would happily offer her free therapy, like literally forever, for
the rest of her life, because she deserves, she deserves
the world, and she deserves better than what she's getting.
And I just hope she knows that she's amazing and
didn't deserve any of it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Yeah. I am a believer in therapy, yes, indeed, and
pretty much everyone I know is as well. So if
you're not on that train, guess what You've got a
great option. Rula Telehealth has made mental health care more
convenient and accessible for millions of people. However, critical challenges

(01:06:10):
like finding a suitable therapist, scheduling appointments, and the expensive
out of pocket cost still keep many from getting the
care that they need. Rula is on a mission to
make high quality mental health care from a licensed professional
easy and affordable for everyone. Sometimes in life, things don't
really line up exactly the way you want it to be.
So for example, if you were struggling with a tough breakup,

(01:06:33):
or you're stressed out, or you're feeling anxious or depressed
and you wish that there was somewhere that you could
go and you had easy access to affordable therapy. That's
not always the case, but RULA is here for you.
With RULA, you can find the right therapist for you.
RULA isn't just affordable. They stick with you throughout your journey,
making sure that you get the best therapy and that

(01:06:55):
you're making progress. With RULA, every provider is carefully vetted
and show and for their expertise. You'll always know you're
in the hands of quality providers who are dedicated to
making real progress in your care. The first step on
your journey to mental well being is easy. RULA starts
by asking you a few questions about what's important to
you and then provides a list of license in network

(01:07:16):
providers who match your preferences. You can schedule your preferred
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next day. Rula's network of licensed therapists accept most major insurance,
and they typically have a Copey of fifteen dollars per session,
making therapy more accessible than ever. Just visit rula dot
com slash drama today. When you sign up, they'll ask

(01:07:39):
you how you heard about him. Please support my show
by letting them know that I sent you. It's a
simple way to help me out while you take your
first step toward the care you deserve. Go to Rula
dot com slash drama now and connect with a licensed
therapist who truly cares your mental health matters. What could

(01:08:01):
possibly have happened in Kendra's life? Not necessarily the sexual assault,
because we know that that's not how it would How
a typical victim of that would ever respond. What could
possibly happen to somebody that would push them to have
this desire to hurt their own child like this? What

(01:08:25):
could explain What kind of trauma would explain that?

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
I don't think trauma would explain it. I think it's
explained by her pathological, clinically significant need for power, attention,
and control.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
Wow, God, that every time you say it, I mean,
it's hard to sink in. You know, it's starting to
sink in, but it is. I get it. I'm starting
to get it more because the need for power, as
we've seen in many cases. I mean it, it manifests
itself in many different ways, and manifests itself in many

(01:09:06):
different disastrous scenarios that hurt people, that kill people. So
I guess at the end of the day that that
really does make a lot of sense. It's just such
a unique, extraordinary situation that I just can't I'm like, well, something,
you know, what happened that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
There has to be something else.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
I like, I've got the X, but I need the
other two numbers to add up to it, or you know,
or it's two X. I just don't know. So okay,
But but I'm glad that you clarified that being a
victim of assault, you know, it is it is an
insult to people who are victims that she would wrongfully

(01:09:51):
point the finger at that as an excuse. That is
actually really infuriating to me now that I understand more.
When when you were talking about that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Right, and so I imagine that a lot of survivors
got real angry, you know, myself included when I saw that,
because it's like, nah, bro, you're like you have problems,
like you're no, fuck you, that's not it, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
But I have a question for you. So at the end,
I felt that there was a little bit of a twist,
at least for me when we found out from Owen
that she was very uh, pursuant of him, because I
did not have that in the forefront of the documentary.

(01:10:40):
I at that point, I was just thinking it was
all about Kendra and Lauren. It really had nothing to
do with Owen, you know. I didn't think there was
a connection there. And then we got there the very
end of the documentary and I'm like, and that's where
you're gonna leave us. So was she trying to pursue
him this entire time? Was it about this? Was she

(01:11:03):
trying to Was that her ultimate plan was to get
with him?

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
I think that at the end of the documentary. One
thing that Owen's mom said that really stuck with me
is that when Owen and Lauren broke up, Kendra went
to all of Owen's games. And that seems like a
very teenagery thing to do, right, yes, right, like I

(01:11:33):
broke them up, and now let me try to swoop in.
And I wonder there is a part of my brain
that's saying I wonder if she thought that maybe she'd
be able to engage with him, and then when that
didn't happen, that's when she went back to the texting,
because when she when she was going to his games,

(01:11:56):
that's when she had taken the break. Oh you know
what I'm saying. So I think that Owen's mother was right.
And to your point, you're right too, is that it's
not just one thing. This is not just one thing.
This is a myriad of very complex psychological components. But

(01:12:17):
I do believe that part of it is that she
had an infatuation with Owen, who was a thirteen year old.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Child, and she was jealous of her own daughter. So
like when you put that motivation on it as well,
like the power, the control everything. When she told on
herself by saying she wanted to control her journey, all
of that is its own thing. But also her she
must have had some I don't know what her upbringing,

(01:12:48):
I don't know what her life was like when she
was a young teen, but clearly she wants what her
daughter's life is because she maybe did not have that
at all and now is trying to. As we've seen
so many times with mothers, stage moms and all those things,
they're living vicarious through their kids. You know, she not
only is living trying to live vicariously, she's trying to

(01:13:10):
destroy and take the feelings all of that take over
and then like take those feelings of being that age
and then ultimately try to be with Owen in some way.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
One key component of narcissistic mothers is that they are
always jealous of their daughters. Oh wow, they are jealous
of their daughters the attention that they get, which is
she said something in a text, you trying to get attention?
Fuck off? I think that was very telling. I think
she wanted her daughter's life. I think she had a

(01:13:47):
preoccupation with a thirteen year old boy named Owan. I
think that she was upset with occupation.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
What do you mean.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
I think that she was a little bit obsessed.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
Oh oh all right, uh inappropriately? Okay, yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
Yeah. And I think she was jealous of her daughter,
the attention her daughter was getting, the love that her
daughter was getting from Owen. And I think it's interesting
because it's like, why would you want your thirteen year
old child to give blow jobs and do all these
sexual acts? And I think that's kind of sick, sickly

(01:14:26):
tied into Kendra's her belief that like she she would
know what to do with Owen. And you don't you
know what I mean? Again, I could be wrong. There
certainly could be missing puzzle pieces, but I've thought about
this for a million hours, and I this is for me.

(01:14:46):
I definitely think that there's not only there's antisocial tendencies,
lack of empathy, there's needs for power and control, there's narcissism,
there's ego, and then there's this preoccupation with an underage child.
It is a host a litany, if you will, of
psychological issues. That this woman should not be walking the streets,

(01:15:09):
and the fact that she is is absolutely shocking to me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
Can I ask you two more questions if you don't mind, Okay?
The first one is as we're going through this and
my mind is shifting around and thinking about all these
texts and the sexual nature obviously that you know. Now
that I'm over the shock of those, I guess I'll
never be over it. But now that we are really
digging in and hearing everything you have to say, do

(01:15:34):
you think that when things turn so sexual and the
threats about how Owen wouldn't want to be with her,
he wants those things in a relationship that her mother was.
Her goal was to push Lauren to have sex with him,

(01:15:54):
to do that with him so that then they ultimately
she ultimately would get pregnant, and then she would always
Owen would always be in her life because of the baby,
and then she could really see now I'm making now,
I'm really making stories up. But you know I'm starting
I'm starting to think maybe there was a grander plan

(01:16:15):
to get him closer so that she could ultimately be
with him sexually.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
That you may totally be no, I swear to you.
I think when you're dealing with someone who is led
by psychopathology and not logic and you know whatever, I
think that that is definitely not beyond a realm of
possibility because I think that Kendra was so over focused

(01:16:45):
on Owen that I do. I just think she needed
him in her orbit, no matter how much, and so
for sure that could be a possibility.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
I mean to see that the texts being so sexual,
almost saying what to do in a way like this
is what you should do, and then for them to
go into self harming herself, it shows like she was
trying one angle, which is like you know, try to

(01:17:18):
get this girl pregnant, and then the mother is going
to be the savior of like I'll take care of
the baby, and like you, I'll keep you closer, and
the controlling that, and then when that didn't seem to work,
and then they broke up or whatever. I don't know
the timeline of the text. At some point when the
thread happened where she was telling her to, you know,

(01:17:38):
get rid of herself, but that was the other option,
to get rid of her entirely, and that her daughter
would do it on her own so that she would
have more access to him and she could comfort him.
She could comfort him, and then it could happen that way. Okay,
so now I've got all my crazy theories out there.
But the biggest question I have is would she have

(01:18:04):
gone so far as to kill her daughter, Because that
to me, as you were saying she should not be
on the streets, she should have she should be locked
up where she should be has nothing to do with
where she is. And to say that she wasn't a
threat to her life, her actual life, that that was

(01:18:27):
never brought up, that that's actually like a premeditated murder
to tell someone to kill themselves. I don't understand why
that's not taken more seriously in this So would she
have done that? Do you think she would have been
capable of doing it? Because I do. I think she
could have killed her, I really do.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Amy if she could have unleashed literal psychological warfare on
her child, anything as possible, Absolutely positively. If this, here's
what I can tell tell you for sure. Remember how
I told you when I was going through the timeline
that escalation was important.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
Yes, yes, escalation.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Indicates that things are getting out of control. And I
believe that the escalation was so much that if this
had not been found out, I absolutely would have been
concerned for Laurens safety. Could this have turned into a
mounch fectitious disorder and post on another where all of
a sudden she starts poisoning her and making her sick?

(01:19:30):
And right? Because when you have this pathological need for attention,
you don't someone like Kendra doesn't care how she gets it.
Her daughter is an object for her.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
To be used.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Lauren is a tool to be used by Kendra. So
your aunt, to answer your question is absolutely anything as
possible and for sure if she hadn't gotten caught this
would have just really bad things could have happened. And
to go back to what you said, I thank you

(01:20:04):
for you know, your point about why did more people
not care about you know, making these threats, these about
death threats and about self harm and all of that.
That part to me is like, why why was this
not investigated more? Why is this? Why was this not

(01:20:25):
a charge or listen? And maybe that's a legal thing,
but I do think that the most diabolical thing that
you could do is try to convince your own child
to end their life. So why would you have any
qualms with ending it for them?

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Wow, that's chilling. Yes, I know, I know, I know.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
He'll well that escalated quickly, but honestly, so Amy, let
me ask you a kind of a couple of questions.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
So at the end of the day day, you know, what,
of the things that I've said and of the things
that we've talked about, I don't know what what it did?
It make sense what we talked about, Like, is there
any other ambering questions or things that you're still like,
you know, I'm confused about this or thoughts about anything,
because you have You've made some very you joked about

(01:21:19):
being in the sidecar. But you've made some very excellent points.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
Oh bah blah, you're doing great, bubba. I you went
through this with a fine toothcomb. You crossed every tea
and every eye that could be dotted. And it does
make sense now, I mean, obviously in the grand scheme
of things that will never make sense. But why are

(01:21:43):
we here as people?

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
Is there?

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
God? Like you know that it falls under that category.
But but for the sake of being so desperate to
understand and not knowing where this falls in the world
of psychology, you have completely laid that out and for that,
I'm so thankful. I just am blown away at how

(01:22:10):
complicated it is. It's really not. It's not a straight line,
and clearly we're all you know, it's not. Everything's not
black and white. But I did think that there had
to have been you know, cause and effect here, and
it simply is not that easy to explain that way. However,

(01:22:31):
you did pinpoint the biggest thing, which is the power
and the control and the narcissism, and that to me
is enough to be able to have a conclusion and closure.
It's enough for me to have closure, you know, right,
Because yeah, and I love when you point out the

(01:22:52):
moments that none of us would ever see. When you
say that you see somebody telling on themselves. I love that.
Every time we talk about a documentary or show, you
always can see that with your ego eye, and I
love that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
It's you know, it's one of the things that my
clinical practice has really informed, right, because you learn about things,
but then you learn you see them in real life
and you see the ways that people present, and so
you know, my career has really afforded me that ability.
But yeah, it was amazing those little things that just
stuck out in my brain because of the things right

(01:23:28):
that I've seen. You know, I call myself the antisocial whisperer.
So my career I worked with a lot of antisocial folks.
And you know that's so cool a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
Yeah, So I listen, I am so grateful for us
to be able to do this episode. I love when
we collab. I know that Darling Bushes love a collab.
And listen, I've been in my grief bubble, so I'm
just grateful that you got me out of the bubble.
And I've had so much fun. Well, not that the

(01:24:02):
subject matter has been fun. Let me be clear. But
it's been fun, you know, to talk with you and
to talk with you all our.

Speaker 1 (01:24:08):
Darlings distraction and for you to exercise your brain the
way that you do when it poo poop poop poop
poo poo is firing all cylinders on all cylinders. I
think that that's wonderful for you to do, especially during
this time, you know, I mean, and I'm so I'm
so happy that we were able to do this. Thank you.
This is probably one of, at least for me, one

(01:24:30):
of the most disturbing things stories I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
I agree, and listen. Being a therapist, right, being an
empathetic witness to sex trafficking, abuse, trauma, right, I have
heard some awful, awful things. To me, this is top
of the list, and I've seen some shit. So, but
to validate you and everyone listening to this is that

(01:24:56):
if you're enraged, good, that means that you're healthy. That
means that you are appropriately reacting to this scenario. So cadus, cadus,
those redus.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
Yeah, and also thank you for explaining so many of
the areas that we should be enraged about that aren't
obvious to some of us and and me. You know, like,
there are so many things that you said. I was like,
oh my god, even think about that, like's it was
so surprising and shocking, and most of us and me included,

(01:25:30):
got really swept away in the entertainment of it, like
I always do. I'm always going to be a pawn
of that. So salacious. But at the end of the day,
I just, you know, was so disturbed by this. I
can't shake it, you know, And so I'm really glad
to have worked through this with you. Oh my gosh,
what a collab. Well, thanks darlings, Thanks bitshus, and we

(01:25:53):
definitely do it again sometime obviously.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
Yes, of course, and of course you all know where
to find us. But you know, please check me out
www dot patreon dot com, backslash your Bush Therapist, Please
check me out on Instagram, your bish Therapist. I'm taking
a smidgeon of a break from the podcast. This is
actually gonna be my season finale, and I wouldn't want
it to be with anyone else, Amy, So thank you

(01:26:19):
for that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
Oh my god, thank you so much. Drama Darling check
me out over wherever you get your podcasts and teatrain
dot com, Slash Drama Darling and Nadiem Phillips, Melissa Talk
To You, Sam Drama Back Darling

Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
Drama, Darling

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