EPISODE 51: Inside Lizzie Borden’s House

We’re sitting in Lizzie Borden’s bedroom, mics in hand, feet on century-old floors that creak like a metronome for the past. That intimacy changes everything. The famous rhyme fades once you see the sightlines, test the doors, and realize how a body could hide behind a bedframe and a myth could hide inside a tidy narrative.

We trace the real timeline: Abby’s silent fall upstairs, Andrew’s final nap on the sofa, a maid sick from bad stew, a family doctor with morphine, and a police force literally at an amusement park. The “obvious” story—Lizzie did it—runs into blood-spatter physics, the absence of a murder weapon, and the logistics of washing off gore without running water. We unpack motives people still cite (inheritance, resentment, control), then weigh them against capacity: clothing, time, acoustics, and witness angles in a compact, connected house. Along the way we meet Bridget “Maggie,” revisit the prussic acid rumor, and examine how a pharmacist’s claim and burned dress lore outgrew the evidence.

After the verdict, the story doesn’t end. Maplecroft, charity done quietly, a sisterly split over a party for actress Nance O’Neill, and a life lived under a headline all reshape the woman behind the legend. We also bring you with us on the road—Fall River coffee, a Portuguese dinner, bridge panic, and that odd feeling of calm inside a place the world calls haunted. It’s part true crime, part travel log, and fully grounded in the stubborn details only a house can teach.

Hit play, then tell us what the floorplan and timeline suggest to you. If this deep-dive hooked you, follow, share with a friend who loves unsolved cases, and leave a review so more curious listeners can find the show.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4B9itkeqlw

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hey Jesse.

SPEAKER_04 (00:02):
Hello, Lindsay.

SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
What are you drinking tonight?

SPEAKER_04 (00:05):
I've got a little bit of a little bit of Long
Island.
I don't think I'm allowed to,but I had a little bit.
I had a little bit of LongIsland iced tea.

SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
Yes.
Previously.

SPEAKER_04 (00:15):
And what did you have today?

SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
I had a watermelon white claw R2.

SPEAKER_04 (00:20):
R2?

SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (00:21):
R2 D2?

SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
Yes.
So go ahead and roll that entryand we'll just get into
everything.

SPEAKER_04 (00:26):
Oh my God, Lindsay.
This is the most epic.
Happy season two, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (00:32):
We are here.
We are here.
And we're here.
Yes.
I want to tell them where we'reat right now.
So badly.
I want to tell them.
But I want to.
You're going to tell them.
Yes.
I think you're going to tellthem.

(00:53):
Because I have no idea what thefuck happened here.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02):
Alright, so ladies and gentlemen, we are on day,
hold on.

unknown (01:05):
Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
We are on day almost five of our New England road
trip.

SPEAKER_04 (01:14):
Feels like a week and a half.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
And we have quite a few more to go.
But tonight.
So we have been to DC.
Yeah.
Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_04 (01:23):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24):
Norwood, Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_04 (01:26):
Yeah, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
And Portland, Maine.

SPEAKER_04 (01:30):
Yep, and yep, and yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
And Hampton, New Hampshire.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:34):
That's nice.
We watched the sunrise there.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37):
Salem, Massachusetts.
Oh my god, that was so cool.
And then now recording in thehome of the case that I'm
covering.

SPEAKER_04 (01:47):
And she is like super reporter reporter right
now because there's like so manypeople in this house right now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
We are in the home of Lizzie Andrew Borden.

SPEAKER_04 (02:01):
What?
Yeah.
What the fuck does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Jesse has no idea.
He's been all through thishouse.
He has literally, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
If you haven't been here, if you haven't looked it
up, so we are now in Fall River,Massachusetts.
And uh we are gonna talk aboutLizzie Borden.

SPEAKER_04 (02:21):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
And she's literally looking right at me.
Hey girl.

SPEAKER_04 (02:25):
We're in her bedroom, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (02:26):
We are in the Lizzie and Emma suite sharing with my
son and sister-in-law, but theywent and took a walk real quick.
Yeah, they took a walk.

SPEAKER_04 (02:36):
It was a like Monday night or whatever.
And they were walking in becauseSilas had a fried.

SPEAKER_00 (02:42):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (02:43):
And we're gonna do our pod.
Because we are right here.
And that's about the time shewalked away from me.
Whatever.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
So, real quick, Jesse, what made you feel old
this week?

SPEAKER_04 (02:55):
Fucking driving all the way up here made me feel old
this week.

SPEAKER_00 (02:58):
First of all, we've shared the responsibility of
driving up here.

SPEAKER_04 (03:01):
Yes, but Lindsay.
We've been kicking some ass andsome driving, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Well, I just want to say, real quick, I do have a lot
of anxiety.
And I have uh a fair of bridgesand apparently a fair of
tunnels.
But not all tunnels, just onesthat go underwater.

SPEAKER_04 (03:20):
Yeah, not all bridge time is is uh tunnel time, and
not all tunnel time is bridgetime.

SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
But up here in New England, I have been over more
bridges than I ever have in myentire life.

SPEAKER_04 (03:30):
That's kind of like not all like pee pee time is
poopoo toms, but all poo-pootoms.
Are pee-pee times.
Yes.
So that's that's where Lindsay'sat, I think.
That's just it's pee pee andpoop.
That's the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 (03:40):
Yeah, I had a severe panic attack going through the
Baltimore tunnel.
Kind of has messed me up for thewhole weekend.
If I have an ounce of caffeine,my heart starts racing.
So I'm backing off fromcaffeine.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to chill.

SPEAKER_04 (03:53):
Um I think it has something to do with Perry.

SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
And yeah, peri menopause.
And it's it's almost that timeof the month for me.
And um, but I did drive a lot onthe way up here.
I tried to drive at other times,it didn't work out.
I had a couple of meltdowns, Icouldn't see really well at
night.
We worked through it.
We worked through it.
We did the damn thing.
And uh I have promised to drivea lot of the way home.

SPEAKER_04 (04:17):
So, how many people hear it's that time of the month
and think of a bone thugs andharmony song?

SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
It's the first of the month.

SPEAKER_04 (04:24):
That's what I think about every time you say it's
that time of the month for somereason.

SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
Well, um, it doesn't, it doesn't for me.
At that time of the month, Ithink of when the doors bust
open with blood.
Yes, on the shining every month.

SPEAKER_04 (04:45):
So we're in like a shining fucking house right now.
Yeah.
House of the shining.
But this is real.
That's just a story written byStephen King.
I'm not ready for this, dude.
Like, you got me here, and I'mlike, I'm walking around, you're
like, what the fuck?
And you're so geeking and I'mlike, no, what the fuck really
is going on, dude?
You got me fucked up over here.

SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
Well, are you ready to get started with the story?

SPEAKER_04 (05:04):
Oh, yes, we have so much to cover for our trip, but
we're gonna share all that onour socials.

SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
Because we will not, we will not have a true crime
episode next week because we areon vacation and I'm not
researching anything while we'reon vacation.
Don't have the time, I'mnavigating.
So next week we're gonna havejust a little chat about our
vacation episode and recap on EdGeen and then a recap on Lizzie

(05:31):
Borden.
Yeah.
So stay tuned for those.

SPEAKER_04 (05:34):
We're gonna do the damn thing.

SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
We're gonna do the damn thing.
All right.
Are you ready?

SPEAKER_04 (05:38):
I guess so, Lindsay.
I guess so.

SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
So Lizzie Andrew Borden was born July 19th, 1860,
to Sarah Anthony Borden andAndrew Jackson Borden in where
we're at right now, Fall River,Massachusetts.
And she had an older sisternamed Emma.
Emma, who is stayed in the roomadjoining us.

SPEAKER_03 (06:01):
Right behind us.

SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
Right behind us.
Um, she was about nine yearsolder.
Sarah, Lizzie and Emma's mother,unfortunately passed away when
Lizzie was around three yearsold.
And um, her father remarriedaround three years later to a
woman named Abby Defree Gray,whose room is across the hall

(06:23):
from us.

SPEAKER_04 (06:24):
So those are the people that we met on the way up
that want to hang out.
I'm gonna hang out with themlater.
We're gonna play like a boardgame, probably downstairs.

SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
It's a murder mystery about Lizzie Borden.
Holy shit.
So they um would reside at 922nd Street, this house.
And um This location.
This location right here.
So Andrew had grown up livingvery modestly, but he did come

(06:52):
from a wealthy family.
In fact, uh the Bordens werevery prominent in this town.
They uh they were bigwigs.
They were bigwigs around here.
Now he became very prosperoushimself by making and selling
furniture and caskets.

SPEAKER_04 (07:08):
So, like, literally, when we were pulling up, it has
this Borden lane, right?
So you were like, these peoplewere pretty big here.
Yeah, I told you that on the wayin.
And I was like, holy fuck, thisis this house is massive.
It's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
So he became very prosperous himself by making and
selling furniture and caskets.
And you remember how I told youthere was a word you can't call
him in this house, right?
So he was so frugal that it issaid, now this this may be
speculation, that he wouldactually cut the feet off of the
dead to make smaller caskets.

SPEAKER_04 (07:44):
Making cheaper?

SPEAKER_00 (07:45):
Fucking it's you can't say that word in here.

SPEAKER_04 (07:48):
Oh, in this house, I can't say that you can't say the
word.
I just fucked up.
They're gonna kill me tonight.
You think?
I don't know what happened, Idon't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Okay, so just don't call Andrew the C-word.

SPEAKER_04 (07:58):
Okay, and he was frugal.
You are not the C-word.
No, you are amazing.
You are not the C word.
No, I just wanted to say that.

SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
So he was also a successful property developer
and owned commercial property,like all over the place.
He was also a director ofTextile Mills.
He became president of UnionSavings Bank and a director of
the Defree Safe Deposit andTrust Company.

SPEAKER_04 (08:24):
Ladies and gentlemen, you need to come to
this location.
It is beautiful, breathtaking.
And I just did not know.

SPEAKER_00 (08:33):
Try not to let your heart palpitate when you see the
bridge that leads from thisplace to Rhode Island, because
mine did.

SPEAKER_04 (08:39):
She'll she will she will make it.
I think she will I would makeit.

SPEAKER_00 (08:42):
I will make it because that there's gonna be
way more bridges in New York.
We've already gone through somany bridges.
Yes.
But when I look at them, myheart palpitates.
I can't help it.

SPEAKER_04 (08:49):
You got it, girl.
You got it.

SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
So he would go on to be worth around$300,000, which
in today's money would be about$12 million.

SPEAKER_03 (09:01):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (09:01):
But like I said, he was extremely frugal.

SPEAKER_04 (09:05):
Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
I mean, cutting legs on this house that they lived in
for this area, as you have seen,was considered modest.
As I mean, this is a smallerhouse compared to the shit that
we see driving up.

SPEAKER_04 (09:20):
We came across the ridge and we looked down to this
amazingly beautiful scenery andthe river.
And we met some cool people andwe had a great dinner before we
even came in here.
It's so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (09:34):
Well, yeah, there's a little coffee shop beside here
that they were closing up, butwe popped in real quick to say
hello, tell every you know, tellthem what we're doing that we
heard about the coffee shop.
And um, so he uh recommended aPortuguese restaurant to us
called the Fall River Grill, andit was delicious.
Yes, and our server Natalia wasamazing.

SPEAKER_04 (09:55):
I think they're gonna give us a full ride
tomorrow.
We're gonna go hang out withthem and do some more um onto
the back side of this.
So after this is over with, do alittle coffee shop conversation.

SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Coffee shop conversation.
All right, so even like I said,this was considered a modest
home.
And um, the rich actually livedin a neighborhood called The
Hill, which was even further outof the city.
But Andrew liked living in town.
He liked to be next to hisbusinesses.
He liked to walk out, you know,and be like, there's work right

(10:28):
across the street, you know.
And uh, even though the wealthyhad access to indoor plumbing
and electricity in the 1800s,the boarding house would not
have these amenities.

SPEAKER_04 (10:38):
So he was kind of grabbing off the church that's
really right across this area,right?
I think because there's a hugechurch right across the area.
And he's probably had like agood contract with them with
doing his work with the casketsand everything.
Because a lot of people that goto churches, like well, I don't
want to assume anything.

SPEAKER_00 (10:54):
I don't know the history behind that.
Let's not assume.

SPEAKER_04 (10:57):
Okay, I'm this is my speculation, always my
speculation.
That is assuming, that's calledspeculation.
Oh yes.
Well, my speculations, always myspeculations.

SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
But we don't know when that church was built.

SPEAKER_04 (11:07):
Oh, yeah.
But I'm allowed to havespeculation.

SPEAKER_00 (11:09):
Okay.
So um, like I said, runningwater and electricity were they
were people who had them,especially the people that have
money, like Andrew.
But this house did not have it.

SPEAKER_04 (11:22):
Really?

SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
Right.
This nice place.

SPEAKER_04 (11:24):
I mean it now, but yes, it does have it now.

SPEAKER_00 (11:27):
Or we we we couldn't be here.
So Lizzie and Emma were broughtup very religious and attended
Central Congregational Church.
Lizzie was very involved in thechurch and taught she she taught
Sunday school to the immigrants,and she served as a secretary
treasurer for the ChristianEndeavor Society and was a

(11:50):
member of the Ladies Fruit andFlower Mission.
Now, like we said, we went toand ate at a Portuguese
restaurant.
Most of the immigrants that shetaught were Portuguese.

SPEAKER_04 (12:00):
Wow, that is so awesome! I just can't believe
just going around culture.
And that's why I was like,Lindsay, we're going to go eat
some Portuguese food.
It was so good.
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
I had garlic shrimp, and I'm telling you, there was
like 40 cloves of garlic in mylittle bowl of shrimp.

SPEAKER_04 (12:17):
Because I was like, Lindsay, I'm gonna kind of flirt
with this chick to get her togive me a uh to go with uh Long
Island, and she's like, goahead.
And I was like, but I feel badabout it.
And she's like, No, go ahead.
Go ahead and do it.
Girl was cute.
That's what I was waiting on youto say it.

SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
She was cute.
We liked her.

SPEAKER_04 (12:32):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
In 1892, neither Border and sisters were married.
Emma was 40 and Lizzie was 32.
So guess what they wereconsidered?

SPEAKER_04 (12:44):
Oh, yeah, that's the right time where they're like,
these chicks are older.

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
Jesse, what's the name?

SPEAKER_04 (12:49):
I can't remember.
You talked about it.

SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
So they in the Victorian age, they were called
a spinster.

SPEAKER_04 (12:54):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:55):
So a spinster would be an unwaried married woman who
they pretty much um, you know,marked her as unwifeable.
Unwife.
Right.
And then she they kind of justwere like, they didn't, you
didn't you didn't really moveout on your own.

SPEAKER_04 (13:12):
Yeah, because all the younger chicks.
They were like, damn.

SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Well, that's not that's not just the only thing.
You uh you weren't given anopportunity to really move out.
You were stuck, you you werestuck with your parents pretty
much after that.

SPEAKER_04 (13:24):
Right.
And they stuck with that andkept them in home.

SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
So and Lizzie, for some reason, even though her
family have money, I think shekind of just did this for fun,
for the thrill.
She had a little klepto problem.
And um, because she reallydidn't need anything, but um,
she, you know, she just wantedprobably bored out of her
fucking mind.
She wanted things, she wantedthings, but she didn't, she
didn't really, she didn't reallywant to.

(13:49):
Look at this stuff.
Yes, isn't it neat?
Yes.
Okay.
So Emma and Lizzie had bothcalled Abby mother for most of
their life, but that wouldchange one day when Andrew
decided to give one of Abby'srelatives a rental property to
help them out financially.

(14:09):
And they didn't like that.
So after that, it caught, Imean, like it caused a lot of
strife and arguments in thefamily.
So Lizzie would refer to her asMrs.
Borden after that.
The sisters demanded that theirfather give them a rental
property as well and bought itfrom him for a dollar.

(14:30):
Now that property would be thehouse that they had lived in
prior to this one with theirreal mother.
And uh, well, they didn't reallylike the fact that they weren't
making a lot of money off theirproperty.
So they uh they sold it back totheir father for$5,000, and it
was only worth like two, andthat's around$130,000 in today's

(14:50):
money.
Fuck.
So Emma and Lizzie had money, soremember that.
Just remember that.

SPEAKER_04 (14:57):
Yeah.
I just wanted to say real quick,Lindsay.
This is the most fucking crazypodcast I think we've ever done.
Oh yeah.
Oh my god.
We're like 2,000 miles away fromhome, traveling the whole
fucking East Coast, every state.
Yeah, we went everywhere butVermont.
Yeah, but that's not on the EastCoast.
So Oh yeah, you're right.

(15:18):
It's not I'm sorry, yeah,because we've already seen it in
right now in this in this veryfucking room.
Holy shit.
I know.
And you're fixing to dumpsomething on me right in front
of me.

SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (15:30):
In this room.

SPEAKER_00 (15:31):
And then I'm gonna go downstairs and show you crime
scene photos.
Okay.
Oh god.
Because Jesse doesn't know, soI've kept some things, I've told
him not to look at certainthings.
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (15:39):
You know what?
I played your game so fuckinghard, and I was like, people
were like, oh my god, do youreally know?
And I'm like, I don't want toknow, shut the hell up.

SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Yeah.
So now after he knows tomorrow,he can soak it all in because
there is the man next door,we're gonna get his name
tomorrow.
But um he is very informational,and I cannot wait for a really
good conversation with him.

SPEAKER_04 (15:58):
And I brought that to you, so that's my kudos back.
Yes, it's got you back.
So that's cool.
Go ahead and fire it, baby.
I love you so much.

SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
So in May of 18, I wrote this backwards.
So in May of 1892, I had written1982, but that's not right.
You always do.
I'm so dyslexic, y'all.
It's been a really it's it'sit's a challenge being a
navigator as well because I'mlike, turn left when I mean
right a lot.
You've been doing good, but I'mI I could I catch it really fast

(16:27):
and I'm like, level up, you'veleveled up.
So in May of 1892, it's reportedthat Andrew had killed multiple
pigeons in his barn that Lizziehad built.
That must be what he's talkingabout next door.
Probably.
That must be where the barn was.
Probably.
Or, okay, I'll get into thislater.

(16:48):
Okay.
So anyway, so Lizzie, she wasattached to these pigeons.
They were like her pets.
She had built a roost for themand everything.
And he'd done this with ahatchet.
Okay.
He said that they wereattracting kids to come and hunt
them, and he wanted them gone.
And this made Lizzie, like Isaid, very upset.

(17:09):
These were her pets.
Another family argument, and Imean, this was a big I mean
okay, so they're 40 and 32.
They're living with theirparents.
They all lived in this housetogether.
As you can see, it's it's kindof all together, but they lived
very separate lives.

(17:30):
They all had very separatelives.
They hardly ate together.
I need to plug that real quick,okay?

SPEAKER_04 (17:35):
With this area, I can understand it.
There's so much to do even backthen.

SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Right.
And most of these houses werethe houses that were here.
Yeah.
So on this particular familyargument, family strife, um,
Lizzie and Emma went to go stayin New Bedford, which we passed
through, or passed by, notthrough, um, for a long vacation
before returning in August.

(17:59):
There was still a lot of tensionin the house when they returned.
They mostly led, like I said,separate lives.
Okay, so you saw that there is athird floor, right?

SPEAKER_04 (18:09):
Yeah, I kind of crept up there and uh opened
somebody's door that was intheir room.
I don't know whose room it was.
I was like, wait, lock the door.
Oh shit.
Because I was exploring.
I was exploring.

SPEAKER_00 (18:19):
Well, they had a maid named Bridget Sullivan, and
that was her quarters.
Oh.
But they didn't call her by hername.
They called her Maggie.
And guess why they called herMaggie?

SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
I don't know, baby.

SPEAKER_00 (18:35):
Because that was the name of the previous maid, and
they just never gave a shit tocall Bridget by her actual name.
How snobby and fucking garbage.
That's garbage.

SPEAKER_04 (18:48):
I'm not gonna say it.
So Bridget.

SPEAKER_00 (18:50):
So you saw the little maid stuff right there as
she walked in, right?

SPEAKER_04 (18:53):
I can't say I'm not saying anything negative in this
house.

SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
So when we enter the side door right before you see
those steps, you've seen themaid's outfit.
So that was Bridget's.

SPEAKER_04 (19:02):
Oh, and that's where I went up to the maid's
quarters.

SPEAKER_00 (19:04):
That was the maid quarters.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (19:06):
And I was like, open, I opened this door and I
seen like socks.
I was like, oh, sorry.
Uh lock the door, even thoughours are isn't locked.
Because if somebody wants tocome party with us right now,
come on, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (19:17):
Well, okay, so now we have introduced Bridget to
the story, okay?

SPEAKER_04 (19:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (19:23):
Bridget slash Maggie.
Bless her heart.
Did you mean the slash thing?
No.
Uh uh.
What do you mean?
I don't know yet.
I mean it's not.
No, no, no.
No, I meant like her name wasBridget, but they called her
Maggie.
Okay, well, you said.
And I believe she was an Irishimmigrant.
I think she was an Irishimmigrant.
Oh.
I'm pretty sure that was yes,that is correct.

(19:45):
So late July or very earlyAugust, the family starts
getting really sick from thefood they are eating.
Mostly Andrew and Abby, butLizzie, Emma, and Bridget were
getting sick too.
I'm sorry, not Emma.
She was still gone.
So mostly, mostly Andrew andAbby, but Lizzie and Bridget

(20:06):
were getting sick as well.
Just not as sick as Andrew andAbby.
Oh shit.
So Abby went to Dr.
Bowen, who lived like, I thinkhe might have lived like right
across the street, um, uh, tothe um family physician, Dr.
Bowen.
And Abby said to Dr.
Bowen, hey, I think we'regetting poisoned.

(20:27):
Now, Andrew, he had a lot ofenemies in town.
So it was, I mean, she literallysaid, you know, I think somebody
is after Andrew and we'regetting poisoned.
But Dr.
Bowen was like, no, Andrew isjust too frugal to get something
to preserve your food.
And uh, you like they wereeating leftover fish, like sit

(20:52):
like sitting out that had beensitting out all day, or leftover
mutton stew that had just beencooking on the stove for three
days.
Yeah, that explains a whole lot.

SPEAKER_04 (21:02):
Not that you were frugal or the C-word at all.
I promise.
No, because I'm spending thenight here.

SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
But um, yeah, you can't eat fish that's just been
sitting out and not beingpreserved by refrigeration or or
fire.
No.
But you know, waste not whatnot.
Even though it comes right backup.
So, like they literally werecoming right outside this house
here and puking their guts up.
Okay.
Whoa.
Yeah.

(21:28):
Well, on August 3rd, JohnVinicom Morse, which was Lizzie
and Emma's maternal uncle, um,meaning that's the dearly
deceased Sarah's brother, hadcome to town and Andrew invited
him to stay a few days.
So now Uncle has come into thestory.
Okay.
Got another dude hanging out inthe FM, yeah.

(21:48):
Well, the next morning, Johnleft really early to run
errands.
I don't know if he did it intown.
Well, I mean, let's see.
This is so yeah, everything'shorse and buggy.
So it was probably in town.
And after John left, Andrew wentto work as usual, but she was
still really just right aroundthis area.
So usually when a guest camethrough, it was up to Lizzie to

(22:12):
make the bed in the guest room.
But on this morning, which Idon't know where the guest room
is.

SPEAKER_04 (22:18):
We haven't been everywhere yet.

SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
It's uh it was up here.
Oh, there's one, there's a door.
That must be it.

SPEAKER_04 (22:25):
Maybe this one?
That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
That must be the guest room.

SPEAKER_04 (22:28):
We're not allowed to hang anywhere.
We're just doing what we canbecause there's a whole tour
that we didn't pay for.

SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
That would make sense though, because all these
rooms are connected.

SPEAKER_04 (22:36):
But we're frugal.

SPEAKER_00 (22:37):
Yes.
Well, and also, um, I mean,yeah, we're probably not a
budget, man.
We're average Joe's just livingliving on dreams.
Yeah.
And and and know how to budget.

SPEAKER_04 (22:47):
But we're basking in the ambience of your horrific
thing that you're fixing to dumpon me right now.

SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Right.
Well, okay, so I would I want toexplain to the listeners real
quick.
So all these rooms that areupstairs are connected by doors.
So there is a door connect, likeso you walk into Lizzie's room,
which connects to Emma's room,which connects to another room
that I'm talking about, butthere is a door behind Lizzie's

(23:15):
room that I think is where theguest room must have been.

SPEAKER_04 (23:18):
Yeah, there's doors locked here and there, and
everything is like periodauthentic.
We're standing in it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:25):
So, like I said, it was usually Lizzie's duties to
clean up the guest room.
But on this morning, Abby wentup to the room, John and oh,
now, okay, it's all comingtogether.
Okay.
Abby went up to the room thatJohn had stayed in.
And sometime between 9 and 10:30a.m., are you ready?

SPEAKER_04 (23:48):
No, not fucking ready, Lindsay.
I'm not fucking ready.
I'm standing in it.

SPEAKER_00 (23:52):
Abby was struck with what is presumed to be a hatchet
on the side of her head, causingher to turn and fall.
So that is the guest room.
And what I didn't want you tosee is literally a mannequin
body laying in the floor rightbeside the bed.

SPEAKER_04 (24:10):
They were like, don't go in here because you are
not too much.
And I dropped like two of ourlittle cards on their bed, but I
couldn't see behind that door.
Are you kidding me right now,Lindsay?
Are you freaking kidding meright now?
Right, dude.
I'm gonna talk to you like machoman Randy Savage right now,
brother.

SPEAKER_00 (24:26):
Okay, so she had first been facing her attacker,
then she received 17 more hitsto her back and head, which
resulted in her untimely death.
Well, yeah.
That would do it, right?
Right next to me.
Right next to me, Lizzie.
Right next to you.

(24:47):
In in But we're not staying inthat room.
But you ain't done.
But you ain't done.
So it's reported that Lizzie wasin the house and Bridget was
outside washing windows, a jobthat Abby had instructed her to
do.
Now, neither one of them heard a200-pound woman fall to the

(25:07):
floor or struggle.
Now, you have heard every creakand stomp that we have gone
through this.

SPEAKER_04 (25:14):
Yeah, we're walking light footed while we're doing
this because we don't want topiss off our coat.

SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
But imagine a 200-pound woman falling to her
death on that floor.
You would hear it.

SPEAKER_04 (25:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
They say that you would could be able to hear it
from the dining room.

SPEAKER_04 (25:30):
Yeah, if I flop down right now, which is right
underneath this whole house isgonna come check out what the
hell.

SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Right.
So, ne like I said, neither oneof them heard the fall or a
struggle.
So around 10:30 a.m., Bridgetand Lizzie are both in the
house, and Andrew came home forlunch.
But he was a ha having a hardtime unlocking the door with his
key.
So Bridget came to help him.

(25:55):
This is at the front door, rightdown there, okay?

SPEAKER_04 (25:57):
The front door.

SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
The front door.
She said a curse word in Gaelic.
I think the word was peshaw orsomething like that.
So um, yeah, so she said thecurse word in Gaelic.
And at the same time, she saidthat she heard laughter.
She'll later say this.
Say that she heard laughtercoming from Lizzie at the top of
the stairs, which is rightoutside of our door.

SPEAKER_04 (26:21):
So now I'm learning Gaelic here in this house.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
So um she said that she helped Andrew out of his
boots and he laid down in thesofa for a nap.
But a later photo would showthat he was actually still
wearing his boots.

SPEAKER_04 (26:38):
Is that the couch I was sitting on earlier
downstairs?

SPEAKER_00 (26:42):
So Bridget, she goes up to her third floor quarters
to lay down because she's stillsick.
Like Abby made her wash allthose windows while she was sick
and throwing up from foodpoisoning.
Um, so Lizzie said, go on andyou know, go take you a nap, lay
down, whatever.
So she did, she had been talkingto the neighboring maid over the

(27:03):
fence, you know, while she wasoutside.
So she has a later alibi forthat.
So I'm putting in the future.

SPEAKER_04 (27:10):
So this has gone down already.

SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
Oh yeah.
So Abby's dead.
It's gone down.
Abby's dead.
It's happened.
In the room right across thehall.
Carol Basketball.
Yeah.
Anyways, around 11, 10 a.m.,Bridget hears Lizzie yelling,
Maggie, come quick.
Father's dead.
Somebody came in and killed him.

(27:35):
Andrew Borden had met the samefate as Abby.
He was struck while sleepingwith what is presumed to be a
hatchet, and he received 10 to11 blows.
One of his eyes had been splitcompletely in two.

SPEAKER_04 (27:52):
I'm gonna fight you right now.

SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
I mean, you Jesse literally sat down on the couch
that he was killed on with his.
I mean, there is a mannequinwith a sheet covering him up.

SPEAKER_04 (28:01):
I don't know if these people that are spending
the night with us in this housewould understand, but we're leg
wrestling.
I swear to God.
Unfrugly leg wrestling in the inthe in the setting room, right
next to the spot that I set,then you didn't tell me nothing
about fucking in you didn't wantto know.

SPEAKER_00 (28:20):
I could have told you the whole story before we
left.

unknown (28:25):
Fuck.

SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Now, Dr.
Uh Bowden, who lived rightacross the street, he came right
over and he pronounced Andrewdead.
Fuck.
But they hadn't he he hadn'tnoticed Abby yet.
Now, of course, Lizzie wasabsolutely out of her mind,
hysterical.
So Dr.
Bowen had given Lizzie a dose ofmorphine.

(28:47):
That way she wouldn't be umover-emotional when the police
arrived.

SPEAKER_04 (28:53):
Hysterical.

SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
Hysterical.

SPEAKER_04 (28:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:55):
But he also did give her some caffeine powder so that
she can answer questions.
So Lizzie is just think aboutthis.
Lizzie is on morphine andcaffeine.

SPEAKER_04 (29:05):
So it's like a melatonin and some Adderall.

SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (29:09):
Right.
Literally.

SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
I mean, a little bit worse than that, right?

SPEAKER_04 (29:12):
Well, yeah, worse, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
Um, so the police, when they came on the scene,
they weren't really um what youwould call the best on the force
because most of the officersthat were, you know, had been
around for a while, they were ontheir annual trip to a nearby
amusement park.

SPEAKER_04 (29:32):
They were, you know, they were having the amusement
park by still.

SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
So they were on their annual, you know, police
picnic, whatever, at theamusement park, their their
annual um work trip.
The holiday.
Yes, they were on holiday.
They were doing some teambuilding exercises.
Now, after the police arrived,they did eventually find poor
Abby dead upstairs.

(29:58):
And Okay, so.
So I've heard a lot of peoplesay, okay, so you couldn't see
her, right?
You couldn't see the layout ofwhere her body was, right?

SPEAKER_04 (30:07):
Not in these rooms.

SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
No, I'm asking, I'm asking you a question.
Look at me.

SPEAKER_04 (30:10):
I'm looking at you.

SPEAKER_00 (30:11):
When you popped your head in that room, if I had when
I told you to back off, youdidn't see anything right away.
No.
Okay.
No, because this will be usedagainst Lizzie later on.
Oh.
So it is said that Andrew cameupstairs and back down.
Did notice Abby laying there.
And then Bridget said thatLizzie was up here and also

(30:35):
didn't notice Abby.
I wouldn't see, I would not haveseen Abby.

SPEAKER_04 (30:38):
I literally walked in that room, the same room.
That door swung open.
I didn't see anything.
Right.
But now it later on, after thisis over with, I'm supposed to
walk in this room and seebecause we're friends right now.
We just met them earlier.
I'm going to walk in that sameroom and actually see it.
But if the door's open, itblocks it.

(30:59):
So I didn't see anything.
Honestly.
I walk in there earlier, andyou're like, Jesse, you're not
supposed to be in there.
I'm like, well, I'm justthrowing a couple little uh
podcast cards, whatever, becausethey were interested in what
we're doing.
Did not see anything.

SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
On the other side of the bed is where Abby was slain
and her a mannequin of her bodyis.

SPEAKER_04 (31:17):
But downstairs where I was sitting next to Angela.
I thought it was just someHalloween shit.
I mean, I know that some shithappened here, whatever.
Right.
And I'm like goof booting, I'mlike, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Because they do have it decorated for the fall.

SPEAKER_04 (31:26):
That was just the spot, but now there's more
spots.
I didn't know about those spots.
Now you got me on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 (31:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (31:33):
Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
So Lizzie's accounts of the morning changed quite a
bit.
But she was pretty out of itfrom the morphine.
And uh she had no blood on herat all, but there was a bucket
of bloody rags.
But Lizzie was on her monthly,and she said that those were her

(31:56):
menstruation rags.
But was it like that or was itlike that?
It was like that.
That's where they were kept in abucket.

SPEAKER_04 (32:02):
That much?
Like was it, was it likecleaning up the thing or was it
just cleaning up the thing?

SPEAKER_00 (32:07):
Jesse, if I had to bleed into towels to soak into a
bucket, you would think somebodyhad been murdered.

SPEAKER_04 (32:16):
Yeah.
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (32:18):
Yeah.
Sorry, listeners, that's a lotof information.

SPEAKER_04 (32:22):
I didn't know.
I mean, it's that whole bonethugs and harmony thing again,
because it's that time of month.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
So, like I said, she was actually on her period, and
those were her menstruationrags.
So um, those weren'tinvestigated anymore because,
well, menstruation gives men theick.
Period.
Not me, because I mean human in1892.
Well, dude, she'd have knownhuman by then.
It still gave him the ick.

(32:49):
It still gives most men the ick.
I have literally gone to myboss.
I could go to my boss and say Ihave a cold, or I'm throwing up,
or I'm shitting my brains out,and they wouldn't give a fuck.
Period.
Gone.
Bye, clock out.
Yeah.
Not me.
Not me.
You had to deal with that allthe way up to the back.
Jesse, you're different.
I'm talking about most men.

(33:10):
Yeah.
It gives them the X.
Well, I don't.
Period.
I don't.
I never did.
Right.
Never have.
Never will.
You're telling lies.
But we'll talk about that later.
Okay.
So a pharmacist now, apharmacist said that she had
tried to purchase some prussicacid, but this was to clean her
seal skin coat.

(33:31):
I didn't even know that was athing.
Yeah.
And there's seals up here, ain'tthere?
Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
So um she was suspected ofpoison, but the pharmacist said
that he didn't sell her thepoison, and there was no poison
found in the stomachs of anautopsy.
These people were hacked withhatchets.

(33:53):
They were hacked with hatchets.
Yeah.
Why the fuck do you care aboutpoison?
Why would you care about faceanything?
When I show you these crimescene photos, there's nothing
else to talk about.
Andrew's face is hamburger.

SPEAKER_04 (34:05):
I mean, like they're done.
It happened right here, rightbeside me.
Right beside me.

SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Right beside you.
So um in the basement where weare not allowed, there were um
two hatchets, two axes, and ahatchet head with a broken
handle.
But the murder weapon wasactually never found.

SPEAKER_04 (34:28):
So the we were not allowed is where every one of
our listeners that are wantingto come up this way, they need
to pay for the tour.

SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Yeah, we didn't pay the extra.
Yeah.
Yeah, we didn't pay the extrabecause we we're traveling, so
we're literally here for thenight.
We're gone tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 (34:43):
Honestly.
So come and get a room and dothe tour.
Yeah, we're off to spend twodays here because this is
fucking phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 (34:49):
And you can also, if you have a group of friends, you
can rent the whole house.

SPEAKER_04 (34:52):
Yeah, you can party up in here.
Well, you can't really party.

SPEAKER_00 (34:56):
You can't have alcohol or Ouija boards.

SPEAKER_04 (34:58):
And I won't say that I've had any drinks in here.

SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
We had drinks prior.

SPEAKER_04 (35:00):
Yes, we had drinks before this because we don't
want to break the rules, youknow.
And Lindsay is fucking killingme, dude.
It's happened right here besideme, dude.
Oh gone.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (35:13):
All right.

SPEAKER_04 (35:13):
Okay.
You're allowed to go.
I mean, let me go back.

SPEAKER_00 (35:16):
I'm sorry, I had to say we're we're having to hold
our microphones this time.
And we don't have a table.

SPEAKER_04 (35:20):
This is fun.
This is very fun.

SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
So um Lizzie's friend Alice, she ended up
staying the night with thesisters the night after the
murders or the night of themurders.
And um, she stated that Lizziehad ended up burning a dress
that evening because it hadpaint on it.
But the paint color was green.

(35:44):
So it wasn't red.
Oh.
But that will be used againsther later on.
Now, Uncle John he returned tothe house around this time as
well.
And he tried to leave again onthe 5th, but by that time, there
were 1,500 around 1,500 peoplejust standing out, just hanging

(36:05):
outside the house.

SPEAKER_04 (36:06):
They're coming to check the shit out.

SPEAKER_00 (36:08):
Yes, they're just hanging outside the house.

SPEAKER_04 (36:09):
What else do you have to do?
Just like we've talked about inso many podcasts, where you just
like people come in droves andthey're spending money and
they're trying to buy it.
They didn't have shit else todo.
What?
That's that's what's crazy tome.

SPEAKER_00 (36:21):
And if you come up here, you'll see that.
I mean, I like I said, a lot ofthe original houses are still
here, and everything is veryclose together.

SPEAKER_04 (36:27):
And this town, like this was the coolest thing that
that was cracking right then, sothey had to come and check it
out, you know.
And it was, I mean, it wasAndrew Borden.
He was a rich man in this town.
Yeah, and I'm sure the name, thethe street was named after him
then, probably.
Probably.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
No, it was um 9232nd Street, something like that.
Okay.
I'll go back to it.
Yeah.
But um, so but Uncle John, hewas mobbed by hundreds of
people, and the police had toget him safely back in this
house.
Like, it was not safe to gooutside if you were Lizzie,
Emma, or John.

(37:03):
Any living person would be agood one.
Or Bridget suspect.
Or Bridget, right.
So the police, they reallydidn't like the fact that
Lizzie's story changed a fewtimes, and they didn't like her
attitude in general.

SPEAKER_04 (37:15):
And I'm not trying to say anything to begin with
right off rip, but this there'sa lot of old houses around this.
So did this to dispel anythingat the moment, who knows what
the fuck really happened so far.

SPEAKER_00 (37:29):
Well, like I said, police really didn't like the
fact that Lizzie's story hadchanged.
They didn't like her attitude,and she became an official
suspect on the night of August5th.
Oh, and they also didn't likethe fact that she wasn't wearing
traditional morning clothes.
Now, it back in those days, youwere supposed to wear black from

(37:50):
head to toe for an entire year.
But I mean, she maybe she didn'thave that in her wardrobe.
Shit, you know?

SPEAKER_04 (37:57):
Well, I heard that they were frugal around here.

SPEAKER_00 (37:59):
Yeah, they were very frugal.
So on August 8th, she had toappear at an inquest hearing and
was denied counsel to be presentwith her during her questioning,
which don't you ever do thatnow.
Don't ever talk to anybodywithout a lawyer.
Yeah.
Say nope, I'm not talkingwithout my lawyer.

(38:20):
You can plead fifth on anything.
Now, she is still on regulardoses of morphine to calm her
nerves.
Now, I want to say right now,I've had four C-sections and
I've had morphine drip afterevery single one of them.
There is no way in fucking hellI could talk to you normally.
I mean, Jesse knows he was therefor me with one of my children.

(38:42):
Yeah, no coherent.
No coherent coherent.
Yeah, you're not really coherentwithin about 15 minutes of that
dose going into your body.
I was passing out for like alittle short nap, and then I
would wake back up.
Like, I don't know how theyexpected her to remember

(39:04):
everything perfectly clear.
She had a very dull life.
Okay.
She's here all day.
So she said that she was firstum ironing some handkerchiefs.
Then she said that she was inthe barn getting some uh getting
some iron to make fishing reelsbecause she had an upcoming
fishing trip.
And as you've seen, there's abeautiful fucking river down

(39:25):
there.
Beautiful.
And she had she was excitedabout it.
She didn't have a lot to do, shedidn't have a lot to be excited
about.
She was 32 years old, unmarried,still living at home, don't get
along with her parents.
And in between that, morphine,she's scratching her face like
you did, probably.
Probably.
And then she also said that shewas picking pears.
So they said that that wasswitching her story too much.

(39:48):
That was probably the threethings that she did all day.

SPEAKER_04 (39:50):
And she just remembered in between like her
going in and out, right?
Right.
She was fighting just to givethem that, right?

SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
Right.
She was literally on morphineand a little bit of caffeine
powder.

SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
During her questioning, she would
contradict herself and she wouldalternate where she was in the
house.
Like one time she would say shewas in the kitchen, one time she
would say she was upstairs, andone time she said she was in the
dining room.
But I mean, this is a big house,but it's not a big house all at
the same time.

SPEAKER_04 (40:19):
So I mean in the count of a day, I can understand
that.

SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
So other people were questioned as well.
Uncle John was suspected becausehe had just come into town, and
like, and then Lizzie wasquestioned about that.
Like, how often does he comeinto town?
Blah, blah, blah.
And then Bridget was suspected,and there were other criminals
in the area, people who hadknown, who had known problems

(40:46):
with Andrew.
And some people even cameforward and falsely confessed.
But on August 11th, Lizzie wasserved with a warrant and was
taken to a jail to await thetrial that would not happen till
June of 1893.
It's almost a year later.

(41:06):
So her trial began on June 5th,and she had a pretty good team
of lawyers because she did havemoney.
And uh, you know, she wasfinally allowed her counsel, I
guess.
So her attorneys were AndrewJennings, Melvin Adams, and a
former governor named GeorgeRobinson.

(41:27):
The prosecution was HoseaKnowlton, and this is Hosea with
an H, not a J, and William H.
Moody, who would go on to beSupreme Court.
Now, fun fact Well, it's notreally that fun, but another axe
murder happened literal just Imean just days before the trial.

(41:52):
And this murder was committed byJose with a J, not an H, Carrera
Di Mello.

SPEAKER_04 (42:00):
You're making me look at you right now.
We're looking right now.

SPEAKER_00 (42:04):
Literally, there was another axe murder right before
her trial.

SPEAKER_04 (42:06):
Within days.

SPEAKER_00 (42:07):
Within days in the same area.

SPEAKER_04 (42:09):
Fuck.

SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
So the trial proceeded, and there was a lot
of evidence against Lizzie.
Like, why was she at the top ofthe stairs and had not seen Abby
laying dead?
But Andrew didn't see hereither.
And now you and I, we we Iwouldn't have seen her unless
our house guests hadn't said, golook over there.

unknown (42:30):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (42:30):
I wouldn't have known.

SPEAKER_04 (42:32):
Now I know.
There's so many corridors andhalls.
It's it's a twisted maze.
And you it's it's insane.
It's and her incoherent morphinerants just did not all tie
together because I understandthe drug that she was on at the
time.

SPEAKER_00 (42:49):
Yeah, you watched me on it for two days.
Yeah.
That was a mess.

SPEAKER_04 (42:53):
How do you tie all that together and then put it
on, you know?
I don't, I'm I'm Team Lindsayover here.

SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
And, you know, another question was why were
there bloody cloths in thebucket?
Well, she was menstruating, andthat's where bloody cloths were
kept back in those days, andthey were kept like down in the
cellar, which I think that'swhere they had their toilet, was
in the cellar.

SPEAKER_04 (43:13):
Yeah, a little bit looks like a lot when it comes
to that, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
It it's a lot, period.
Yeah.
It's a lot.
I'm sorry.
I mean, I understand what you'redoing.
If I'm like I said, if I hadlike, you know, we wear pads and
tampons and we go to the toilet.
But if we had to just bleed inrat, like actual rags and keep
them in a bucket, it would looklike it would be horrible.
It would be horrible.

(43:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So another thing was why did shecall Dr.
Bowen when there were otherdoctors in the neighborhood?
Well, he was the familyphysician, and the other doctors
were immigrants, and like I'vealready said, you know, they
were kind of snobby around here.
Now, there had been a tinyscandal with her and Dr.

(43:58):
Bowen a few years back where hehad accompanied her to church
one time, but that was it.
But it was just likeunsupervised or unchaperoned.
But they were they're grown.
I know the rules were differentback then, but like they were
grown.
But in the timeline that themurders were committed, she

(44:18):
would have been seen with a lotof blood on her clothes.
Okay, a lot.
I mean, okay, and first of all,a woman, a a a Victorian era
kept or no lady of leisurehatcheting a person.
First of all, it's just like I Ican't I can't remember.

(44:44):
I know.
And then second of all, wheredid all the blood go?
Now there was speculation thatshe did it wearing sheets, but
where were the sheets?
It was also speculated that shecommitted the murders naked.
But she was seen fully dressedafter both murders.
And there would have still beenblood on her face and her hair.

(45:07):
I mean, I guess these peoplenever heard of blood spatter.
And there wasn't a shower thatshe could go wash off.
Do you see a shower anywherearound here?
Besides the one across thestreet that was built way later
on.

SPEAKER_03 (45:20):
Yeah, there was nothing in this house.
Yeah, at the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:23):
And it takes some time to get redressed twice in
Victoria era lady clothing.
I mean, it just does.

SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (45:35):
It's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
So it just doesn't add up.
Plus, how was this lady ofleisure, like I said, who barely
exerted any physical activitythan fucking ironing and fishing
and eating a pear, how is shesupposed to have the strength to
hatch it 17 or 18 times on herstepmother and then 10 or 11

(45:56):
more on her father?
How?
Where's the strength?
I work out a lot.
I don't know.
And I've and I've carried andI've held four kids and I am a
server by trade.
I couldn't hatch it.
Somebody I might could do twoblows and I'd be worn out.

SPEAKER_04 (46:13):
Right.
It would be distraught.

SPEAKER_00 (46:16):
You would be completely, you know, and she
was she was ill from the badfood and she was on her period,
which depletes your strengtheven more.
But of course, the prosecutionwas like, oh, it was a
menstruation rage.
Oh but no.
And uh investigators they turnedthe house upside down for

(46:37):
evidence and they found nothing.
Fuck even though prosecutiondelivered a compelling case, it
was not compel compelling enoughbecause on June 20th, 1893,
Lizzie would be acquitted of themurders.

SPEAKER_03 (46:54):
Not enough.

SPEAKER_00 (46:55):
And she fell to her knees upon leaving the
courthouse, and she toldreporters that she was the
happiest woman in the world.
Now, some people could take thatas, oh, she got away with it.
Some people could be like, oh,she was just happy because she
didn't have to go to prison forsomething she didn't do, which
that's what side I'm on.

(47:17):
As if you haven't noticed yet, Idon't believe Lizzie did it.

SPEAKER_04 (47:20):
According to Lindsay's version here.

SPEAKER_00 (47:23):
Well, this is, I mean, I've listened to two
audiobooks, which I will plug atthe end.
And um, actually, I'm about toplug it in just a second, and I
listened to several otherpodcasters cover her with
different opinions, all of them.
And I'm still on Lindsay.
Yeah, I don't think she did it.

SPEAKER_04 (47:44):
Now I I understand her trying to to give it a
little bit.

SPEAKER_00 (47:47):
There's no there's no motive because okay, a lot of
people said that maybe Andreawas about to disinherit her, or
maybe um, you know, she did itbecause she hated Abby and her
family.
It doesn't matter.
She had her own money.

SPEAKER_04 (48:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (48:06):
At this point, so she chose to live at home.

SPEAKER_04 (48:09):
Yes, that's exactly what I'm fixing to say at this
point.
How times were she was set in tobe in here with her family
because she was like, okay, I'mnot good enough to be suited
with uh, you know, a marriageand and to move out of this
household.
So everything was just heraccepting her livelihood and the

(48:31):
frugalness and whatever herfamily had to offer for her.
She was she was very fortunate.
She was she was loving andappreciating everything that was
happening here.

SPEAKER_00 (48:43):
I mean, she had some, I mean, there were issues
and there was tension in thehouse.
Oh, for sure.
But I mean, like her and Emmahad just gone off on a vacation.
I mean, what I mean, unless theonly thing that I can think of,
unless she somehow planned itwith another accomplice, that's
the only way I'll accept thatshe had anything to do with it.

SPEAKER_04 (49:04):
I think yeah, somebody got away with some shit
right here.

SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
So um, there are a ton, I mean, a ton of theories
and uh that you can read abouton Wikipedia.
And the book that I listened toabout this case was The Trial of
Lizzie Borden by CarolRobertson.
It's really good.
The narrator is an actualnarrator, but it still sounds
kind of robotic.
It's weird.

(49:28):
So it was hard for me to getthrough because there wasn't a
lot of I don't know, I need mynarrator to be a little more
excited.
But this person tried, whoeverthat be.
So after the trial, Lizzie andEmma, they deaf they inherited
Andrew's estate and they movedto the hill into a large modern

(49:51):
for the times home, which Lizzienamed Maplecroft.
And I think that's adorable.
I love that name.
And it was fully staffed, andthey also had a coachman, and
she would later on have a carand she would have a driver.

SPEAKER_04 (50:05):
So they were well off.

SPEAKER_00 (50:07):
Oh, yeah.
I told you he was worth like 13million.
Yeah.
12 million.
They were well.
And then Lizzie and Emma alreadyhad they were 100,000 for the
time, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 (50:17):
They were well off.

SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
Now, Lizzie continued to do a lot of charity
work, and she did it mostlyanonymously.
She had done that before.
Now, it I mean, it can bemisconscrewed as that's really
all she was allowed to do, butit doesn't matter.
She still did it, you know, andshe would have a lot of parties,
and she was finally thesocialite that she had always

(50:42):
wanted to be.
She gave a party for an actressnamed Nance O'Neill, and that
caused an argument betweenLizzie and Emma, who had been
closer than close their wholelife, okay?
After this, Emma moved out andthey never spoke again.

(51:03):
Again.

SPEAKER_04 (51:04):
So she was holding on, so with some resentment.

SPEAKER_00 (51:08):
Now, there are rumors that Lizzie was um, she
loved the ladies herself, andthere's nothing wrong with that.
But you know, in the 1800s,early 1900s, that was just not
accepted.
So it was rumored that her andNance O'Neill had a
relationship, right?
And then she also had a hiredtraveling partner later on, who

(51:33):
was also a woman.
So you can put two and twotogether.

SPEAKER_04 (51:36):
Rumors and speculation, just the same as
me.

SPEAKER_00 (51:38):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So, like I said, her and Emmanever spoke again, which is
really sad because they wentthrough a lot together and they
were very close, and their roomsliterally adjoin each other.
I'm looking at Emma's room fromLizzie.
Me, Jesse and I are staying in.

SPEAKER_04 (51:53):
We're looking at them.

SPEAKER_00 (51:55):
Yeah, we are in Lizzie's room and we're looking
at Emma's room.

SPEAKER_04 (52:00):
We're basking in the ambience.

SPEAKER_00 (52:02):
Yes.
And I did figure out, by theway, we took a little break, and
it is the master suite that ison the opposite side of this
room, and it was the guest roomthat is across the uh stairwell
from us.
Oh, that's where our our friendsare staying.
But we've met.

SPEAKER_04 (52:20):
So crazy.
You brought me in the middle ofall of this.

SPEAKER_00 (52:25):
Lizzie would have her gallbladder removed in 1926
and remained ill for the nextyear until she died from
pneumonia on June 1st, 1927, atthe age of 66.
Now, what's wild is I told youEmma's nine years older than

(52:48):
her.
Nine days later, Emma died.
What?
From chronic nephritis in anursing home where she had been
residing in New Hampshire.
Wow.
So Lizzie dies.

unknown (53:05):
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (53:05):
Emma, who is nine years older than her, dies nine
days later.
Yes.
Whoa.
I'm sorry, nine.
Yeah, I did say nine yearsolder.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (53:14):
Nine years older than her.
I'm looking at pictures rightnow in this room.

SPEAKER_00 (53:19):
There's pictures of everybody.

SPEAKER_04 (53:21):
This is all really happening here.
This is all really dude.
Like, okay, the more I pan, themore there is.
It is insane right now.

SPEAKER_00 (53:31):
Now I'm gonna wrap this up so Jesse can plug his
band and then I can godownstairs and show him crime
scene photos, okay?
So when Lizzie died, she wasworth$250,000, which is about$8
million in today's money.
She left$30,000 to the FallRiver Animal Rescue and left

(53:53):
money to her friends and familymembers.
And 130 something years later,the murders of Andrew and Abby
Borden will remain unsolved.
Bum bum bum.

SPEAKER_04 (54:08):
Yes.
I think it was the other dudethat was doing the other things
with the things.

SPEAKER_00 (54:13):
It could have been, or it could have been the uncle.
Oh no.
I don't know.
I really don't know.
And like I said, even if I don'tthink that Lizzie physically did
it.
If she was a part of it, she hadto have had an accomplice.
Because I don't think that shecould have physically done
either one of those things.
It's just not, it's literallynot possible with blood spatter

(54:37):
and things of that.

SPEAKER_04 (54:38):
We're standing here, and okay, Lizzie's Lindsay is
sitting down.
I'm literally on the sofa, andLindsay's rocking back and forth
because I'm looking at all thesepictures right now and I'm
holding this microphone.
You guys have to come and checkthis out.
You have to come and bask inthis.
Holy shit.

(54:59):
And you know, I really don'tfeel any bad vibes here though.
Absolutely not.
I feel like welcome vibes here.

SPEAKER_00 (55:06):
I feel no bad energy here.
There is a weird smell when youcome in the side door.

SPEAKER_04 (55:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
But that's it.
Yeah, it just feels old.

SPEAKER_04 (55:14):
It's old house.
It's just, it's good.
Like the nostalgia, what we'vepaid for is well worth the
money.
I would say come in September isperfect time.

SPEAKER_00 (55:27):
I mean, and like we said, you can rent this out for
your all you can rent it out forjust y'all.
Yeah.
You're you and your friends oryou and your family.
Oh, yeah.
And all the furniture is theoriginal furniture.
There's a board game availablefor you to play.
You can use their um, like theyhave a friator, a microwave,
things like that.

SPEAKER_04 (55:45):
And I'm not sure if we've talked our neighbors into
playing the board game, but I Ikind of was talking to them a
minute ago, and I'm like, let'sgo down and play this board
game.
It's like clue.
I want to go down and play it.

SPEAKER_00 (55:55):
And and you can do the package with the whole um
museum tour.

SPEAKER_02 (55:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:00):
Because this is a museum as well as a bed
breakfast.
Yes.
Yeah.
And we're not doing that becausewe do literally have to.
We're going to talk to ourcoffee shop guy tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04 (56:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:09):
Coffee and conversation.

SPEAKER_04 (56:10):
We'll cover that.

SPEAKER_00 (56:11):
And then we are literally headed to New York
City for the next two days.
Yes.
And then Gettysburg, and thensouth of the border.
Not literal south of the border,but south of the border, South
Carolina.
And then we'll be heading home.

SPEAKER_04 (56:24):
So the East Coast, south of the border, we're going
to spend the night at.
So, yes, the south of the borderis like the south of the border
for the East Coast.
And we're going to stay at that.
There's just so much we need totalk about.
We're going to cover all of it.
You're going to get parts andpieces.

SPEAKER_00 (56:37):
Well, it's a whole south of the border themed
little area.

SPEAKER_04 (56:41):
Yeah.
And you'll check out all of ourpictures, all of our socials,
all of the videos.

SPEAKER_00 (56:45):
And we're going to literally have an hour-long
episode recapping to you ouradventure from front to finish.
I promise you it's worth it.

SPEAKER_04 (56:53):
Let us get back home and we're going to cover some
shit.

SPEAKER_00 (56:56):
Yeah, it's it's worth, it will be worth the
listen, I promise you guys.
And then we'll be back.
We'll be back with another truecrime story next week.
Yeah, you guys.
We're gonna start, we're gonnakick off October with some shit.
We are when this comes out, wewill be in spook season.
I mean, like officially.
I mean, spook season happens inmy house in September pretty
much all year.

(57:16):
But we will officially be inOctober and we're gonna cover
some more things.
But right now, I'm gonna letJesse plug this band.

SPEAKER_04 (57:24):
I know I got this cool ass band.
But real quick, Lindsay, how'dyou feel about looking at all
these houses?
And they're already set up forHalloween.
Already.
Well, we've been set up forHalloween too.

SPEAKER_00 (57:37):
But I mean the yards, we have already seen some
some awesome pumpkin carvings,DC there, that some of the
houses there, but we're gonnacover all that in our recap of
our New England adventure.

SPEAKER_04 (57:49):
To hear it all.
I get to play a band though.
Yes, I get to play some music.
Yes, that's what I do.
It is my turn, and I'm still inthe middle of this.
I'm still in the middle of this.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, so Alibus is the band.

SPEAKER_00 (58:09):
That's what it looks like, yeah.
Alibus.

SPEAKER_04 (58:12):
Yeah.
And the song from LA.
Yeah, they're from LA.
So, and Lindsay's gonna say thesong because I'm gonna hook this
up and we're gonna fucking rockit out, dude.

SPEAKER_00 (58:21):
This song is called Dark Side.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:32):
Holy shit, Lindsay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:35):
That band was amazing.
Amazing from everyone.
We're being quiet because thereare other guests in the house.
So we're like kind of talkinglow.
So we want to be respectful.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:45):
Yeah, she's been yelling at me the whole podcast.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:48):
Shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:49):
Our neighbors are cool though.
Yeah, they are cool.
Yeah, they're cool.
And we're having I mean, youbrought me into this, Lindsay.
You brought me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:57):
So what do you think now that you're in this house?
We gotta go down and check itout.
I know.
I want to go show Jesse thecrime scene.
We're gonna do.
But I do have a little video ofhim just sitting by this
mannequin body.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:10):
I didn't know what the fuck.
I didn't know what the fuck.
The spots, the scenarios.
It was the scenario.
It was angels.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:19):
Like literally, when you walk, oh my god, this this
house is incredible.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:22):
People hacked up in this box.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:24):
I'm gonna be putting on my makeup in the mirror that
Lizzie Borden looks like.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:29):
So Lindsay's gonna do a get ready with me on
TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:33):
I should do that.
You gotta help me.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:39):
That's what's happening.
So check out all the socials,check out Drink About Something
Outside, check out the video.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:44):
Listen, I just want y'all to know I did promise a
lot of TikToks from this trip,but you have no idea how
difficult that has been.
So we're gonna do a longentourage that I will make a
TikTok of.
Jesse will put that on YouTubeof the entire trip, of clips and
videos that we've taken, andthen we are gonna do a full at

(01:04:04):
least one hour recap of ourentire trip because I promise
you, like I said, it is worthhearing.
We have the trip alone and we'veseen and did so much.
And we still have more to go.
So stay tuned for that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:20):
We're way back down south now, finally.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:22):
Yes, we have gone all the way up to our most
northern port uh point, and nowwe're headed back down.
So we're gonna be in New YorkCity the next two days doing hop
on, hop off bus.
So I'm not looking forward tothat traffic again, but I've
already gone through Bostontwice.
I've went through New York.
I got it.
I got it.
You got it, girl.
Yeah, I went over 19 bridges, atleast.

(01:04:46):
Tunnels and all.
Tunnels, bridges.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:49):
Yeah.
We're ready.
And we're gonna take on thiswhole trip, get our asses back
home to Florida, back to Gen ZChesterton Fieldville.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:01):
Which I need to check on.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:02):
I need to check my cameras.
We miss it, but yeah, we got ourcameras.
Or our uh our older kid, Len, isstaying there, and we're we're
checking cameras.
And you know, the cool thingabout it is Lindsay plays music
on our cameras at her house, andthey're like, who?
It was like, okay, Lannon andhis cousin Alex, which is my
sister.
And then his best friend Isaiahcame over too.

(01:05:22):
So it's like those three guysare just hanging out, they're
guys, they're you know, they'redoing their thing.
They're batching.
Yeah, we're comfortable, and Ifeel comfortable in this house,
but now I get to walk around it,Lindsay, after you telling me
this, Lindsay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:35):
But there's still I don't feel any bad energy here.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:38):
Uh no, I don't feel like uh I don't feel like these
two in this room has anything todo with it.
And you know, it's just part ofthings that happen.
And we've been around thingsthat happen, and thank you for
sharing your story aboutLindsay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:50):
Like legit, real real quick plug.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:53):
The um the beach hotel that Jesse had booked for
us last night at um HamptonBeach, New Hampshire, was about
as old as this house, and it wasan experience.
We'll just put it that way.
But thank you, Lindsay.
But you know what?
We got to uh wake up and watchthe sunrise from our balcony,

(01:06:14):
and it was gorgeous.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:15):
Check out those pigs.
Gorgeous, yes, yeah, but we'lltalk more about that later.
Thank you, Lindsay.
Thank you so much for letting usbe part of this episode.
We're up, we're up north.
You did a great job.
Now I get to go walk in it.
And I just want to say thank youso much with the middle finger

(01:06:36):
out with the middle finger out.
So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:39):
You are welcome.
You are so welcome.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:42):
And we met some cool people around here in the world.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:44):
And we had some great Portuguese food and we met
an amazing Portuguese lady fromBrazil.
She's only been here for sixyears.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:53):
And she left her name.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:54):
Yeah, we said it, Natalia.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:56):
Yeah, Natalia.
So if you're in Fall River, goto Fall River Grill.
Yes.
And we're gonna plug it, we'regonna tag it, and she she gave
us a car.
Yes, we're doing the damn thing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:06):
We're gonna follow them on other socials, and you
guys do the same.
Even if you never make it uphere, just follow them because
of it.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:13):
This band was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:14):
Support the bands, support the restaurants, support
us, support us.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:17):
So we need some good ass East Coast, whatever.
Send it to us.
That's what we need.
Absolutely.
And we need you to come alongwith us because we're having a
great time.
And we will see you guys nextFriday.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:30):
We love you so much.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:31):
Actually, we'll see you on Wednesday and Friday.
Yes, both.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:35):
Bye.