December 7, 2022 • 24 mins
The influential leader we will learn from this month is Sheeba Philip. A graduate of Harvard Business School, Sheeba embarked on a high-performing marketing career, helping to promote brands like Oreo and JCPenney. Although she was raised with the understanding that performance was something to be perfected and refined, Sheeba came to have a more fluid opinion on what a success and a setback are…and why God truly allows us to experience both of these happenings in our lives.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode is sponsored by Vision Trust.
Vision Trust is an organizationthat provides essential support
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development to children andadolescents living in poverty
around the world.
Vision Trust is brimming withfemale role models who are
investing in the next generationof women.
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(00:42):
Jordan Johnstone.
The influential leader we willlearn from this month is Sheba
Phillip, a graduate of HarvardBusiness School, Sheba embarked
on a high performing marketingcareer helping to promote brands
like Oreo and JC Penn.
Although she was raised with theunderstanding that performance
was something to be perfectedand refined.
(01:02):
Sheba came to have a more fluidopinion on what a success and a
setback are and why God trulyallows us to experience both of
these happenings in our lives.
Let's listen as Sheba begins herstory.
All right.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
Um, and my first question foryou might be a little funny, uh,
(01:24):
but it's always so much fun tohear what people answer.
Um, so who is Sheba Phillip?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Oh my goodness, Jordan, that's a tough.
No pressure.
Well, when you said that thefirst thing that came to mind is
Daughter of God, daughter ofthat's who I am.
That's what defines me.
I am his beloved daughter.
And I think that relationship isobviously expressed through
(01:54):
multiple ways.
I mean, I'm an actual daughterto somebody.
I am a sister.
I am a best friend.
I'm a leader.
But I think if you ask me who Iam at the core, I'm a daughter
of the most high.
I'm a daughter of God,
Speaker 1 (02:10):
As are probably a lot of the women in our audience
right now.
Um, so that's kind of a unifyingtheme for everybody.
.
Now, over the next two episodes,um, we are gonna be discussing
successes and setbacks.
Mm.
So to start off everything, Iwould kind of love to have you
define what does a success andwhat does a setback mean for you
(02:34):
personally?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Mm.
Well, I I think that, uh, youknow, we are all on a journey
with the Lord mm-hmm.
for years in life.
And I actually don't definesuccesses and setbacks as I
think the typical definition is,which is it's about accolades or
hitting some sort of scorecardor metric, or in doing that
(02:57):
well, or not doing that onefailing.
I think everything is ordainedby God.
Everything has a purpose.
And to me, success is are youlearning from mistakes?
Are you growing?
Yes, there's of course thetangible success of hitting it
out the park, hitting yourbusiness goals, overachieving
expectations.
(03:17):
But success in my mind is truly,are you on a, a journey with God
of learning, of growing, ofresponding to failures and
mistakes in a way that allowsyou to be further used for him.
Failure in my mind, frankly, issomeone who doesn't wanna grow,
who doesn't wanna learn from themistakes that they've made who
(03:38):
continue to repeat or, or kindof walk around the same tree or
around the same kind of desertover and over again because
they're not participating, uh,kind of in that journey and that
exploration with, with the Lord.
Um, but yeah, in the, in thetraditional sense, failure is, I
think, of course, we all wannacome into our work and have
successes as we deem them.
(04:00):
We wanna hit the bar.
And failure feels sometimes likeyou're falling short of that.
But like I said, I really wannaencourage, you know, those
listening to my story that I, Ithink success and failure is a
very black and white definition.
I, I think all of it is used byGod.
All of it is for his purpose.
And it's how we respond in thosemoments of disappointment, in
(04:23):
those moments of incredibleexcitement.
Um, it's, it's how we, how weapproach that that ultimately
makes it a success or a failure.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Have you always been this, like, out of the box to
think about it?
Or is this something that youkind of had to learn maybe in a
hard way, of like, oh,let's not think of it as so
black and white.
Let's, let's really kind of divedeeper into what could be
benefits behind both success andsetback?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think it is going through actually a
lot of kind of traditionalprofessional success and
failure.
I mean, I mean, I am not gonna,I I I would say you're right.
I have a little bit of a moreout of the box point of view,
but I'm not immune to the ideaof yeah, there's failure.
I have run businesses that havenot done well.
I have lost a job.
(05:11):
I've been told I'm not meetingexpectation.
Those are failures.
Those are, that's what we aretold are failures.
And they feel like failures.
They, they, they, they'redisappointing and they're hard
and they make you cry.
Um, yeah.
And there are moments of successwhere, you know, I went to
Harvard Business School and Iwas able to drive multi billion
dollar brands and I was able to,you know, really turn around,
(05:34):
you know, business situations.
Those are all, I would guesssuccesses.
Yes, they are.
But I think what is undergirded,all of it has been a growing
relationship with the Lord.
And said, when you ask me thatquestion, who are, who am I?
I am not, yes, I am a leader, Iam a business person, but I am
not defined by those, thosesuccesses and those failure.
(05:57):
I'm not even defined by what Ido.
I'm defined by who I am and whoI am, daughter of God.
And as you become closer andcloser in relationship with the
Lord, as you understand how muchhe loves you and how much, or I,
for me, how much I'veunderstand, how much he loves
me, how much he adores me, howmuch he sees me.
And it's not about what I do, itdoes relax the constraints
(06:22):
around how I see success andfailure, and frankly, how it's
informed that worldview.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Hmm.
Now did you grow up with, youknow, this mindset from your
parents of, you know, it's asuccess or it's a setback?
Or did you have parents thatwere more, Hey, you know what,
try failing a little bit,you know, um, cuz it's always
interesting to me to hear whatkind of a dynamic people come
(06:48):
from.
Because you know, in, in themoment when you're, you know, 10
years old and going, oh, I, youknow, I don't wanna fail, you're
gonna look back and go, oh, I'mglad I failed.
I'm glad it was okay for me tofail.
So like, what, how did you growup?
Like what was, what was, youknow, the, the go-to term when
you were at home?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
It's so interesting you ask this question because
you'll be surprised when I sayit was, did you get an a, I
mean, that that was the go-toterm.
Yeah.
Did you get an a I grew up in aSouth Asian household.
I'm Indian American.
My parents were immigrants.
Uh, my dad came to the us he was18, uh, with dollars in his
pocket, you know, like the, the,the kind of classic immigrant
(07:29):
story.
And so work ethic and excellenceand, you know, having a strong
career, making good money,caring for yourself in an
independent way.
Those were values that he wantedto see in his family because he
came out of a place of povertyin India and he came to the US
to make a name for himself andhis family, and he loved the
(07:50):
Lord.
I grew up in a Christian home,but it was very much about
performance and achievement.
And I would argue that so muchof that is why I've actually
spent emphasized academics andeducation and grew my career and
have done, you know, wonderfulthings because of that
foundation of excellence, ofachievement, of stewarding your
(08:13):
talents and your gifts reallywell.
So in some ways it's quite theopposite of, of it is definitely
was not, it's okay, you failed,you made a mistake, move on.
It was definitely, why didn'tyou get that?
A, you only got an A.
So I, I grew up in thatmentality.
So my, my perspective on thistruly was informed, um, not by
(08:36):
my upbringing frankly, but itwas through just life
experiences.
It, it was through coming out ofbusiness school and working in
the faith and work space atRedeemer.
I, I attend the RedeemerPresbyterian in Keller's church
in New York.
I was really involved with faithand work, and that was where I
started to wrestle with, withwhat is my identity?
What does work look like?
(08:58):
What does success and failurelook like?
And then it was my real, just mypersonal journey with the Lord
just grew over time.
But my, my actual roots andwhere I grew up was all about
performance for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Same, that was
very similar to how I grew up as
well.
I mean, I'm the oldest of seven,um, and my mom homeschooled all
of us.
And so she was very on top ofhow we were doing academically
and, you know, yeah.
It, it was very much a, like yousaid, well, you didn't get an A
plus.
Yeah, I got an a a, youknow, that's great, but no.
(09:32):
Right.
Um, but it, but I do like whatyou said though about how you
have kind of shaped Yes, yourviewpoint on this.
And I feel like there is acertain, I guess richness when
you get that opportunity to youfor yourself not carrying on
like something that yourfamily's always preached, but
like yourself as have actuallydug deep and gone, oh no, hey,
(09:54):
actually this is, this is howthis is.
You know, and this is how Ithink about that.
So that I like, I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Thank you.
I appreciate that,.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Well, so for today, we are going to discuss two of
the most important successes ofyour life.
Um, and you sent them to me, soI am not, I'm not putting that
label on them.
Uh, and the first success thatyou shared was when you made the
big and somewhat scarydecision to diversify your work
experience.
So what led you to thatdecision?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yes, you know, it was , um, gosh, probably 2010, um,
actually no, 2013 I was workingat Craft Foods and I was leading
, um, the global Oreo business,which was a phenomenal
experience and had a tremendouscareer at Craft, um, doing
(10:48):
really well.
Uh, in fact, I'm sorry, at thetime it was called, the company
was called Moda Lease.
It was originally craft becameModa Lease.
But, you know, I was working inthat company and at the same
time I was traveling to India alot for work, actually not
because of my personalconnection to India, my family
connection to India.
(11:08):
And when I was in India, Istarted to see so many, uh,
impoverished women and children,and saw the plight of the core.
And I thought to myself, okay,this is, this is, this is
obviously eye opening.
I wanna figure out a way to, uh,use my resources, even volunteer
my marketing skills to helporganizations that are fighting
(11:30):
human trafficking, helping womenin children particularly focus
in India.
I come back, uh, from that trip,and again, I'm at running the
global Oreo business.
I'm having a pretty fast pacedcareer, uh, loving what I'm
doing, but still starting tofeel really kinda like, what am
I doing?
Like, where is my purpose?
I've been at this company for 10years, I love it, but is there
(11:54):
something else that I can bedoing?
And, and my, that backdrop ofIndia and that those visions I
saw, or those visuals I saw ofthose women and children just
was sitting with me.
And that's when I got an emailout of the blue from a friend
who said, international JusticeMission, which is a large ngo,
(12:14):
uh, Christian ministry based inDC that's fighting modern day
human slavery, particularly inthe area of human trafficking,
working in countries like India.
They're looking for a vicepresident of marketing.
They're looking for someone tocome in and, you know, help them
build their brand.
And it was such a scary moment,Jordan, because I felt that call
(12:37):
from God.
I, I knew I just got back fromIndia.
I was struggling with like God,where I know there's something
bigger than this work that I'mdoing now, but there's also a
reason why I have all theseskill sets that they're not
wasted.
So what do I do with it, youknow, marketing and my business
degree?
And that's when I made thecourageous decision to say, okay
(12:59):
, I'm going to walk away from ahigh paying career from a
fast-paced executive career thatcould really move me to, you
know, CMO of a large publiclytraded company, you know,
potentially and dive intoChristian ministry, something
radically different.
(13:19):
And I'm proud of myself of that,of that decision.
And I do as a success becauseit's a spiritual success.
It, I, I, for me, it was moreabout the courage to step out in
faith with God.
I I get this vision of when Godcalls Peter outta the boat to
walk on the water towards him,and as long as his eyes are
(13:40):
fixed on Jesus, he can walkforward.
The minute he looks at thewaves, he starts to drown.
And for me, that was that realinvitation.
Are you gonna step outta theboat?
Are you gonna follow me?
Not knowing where this will go,but knowing this is an
invitation that I'm asking youto consider.
And if you do it, you gotta keepyour eyes fixed on me.
(14:02):
Cause the minute you think aboutthe money you're walking away
from, or the uncertainty ofworking in a ministry, uh, the
fear of where's my career gonnago after this?
The minute you look at that,you're gonna get back in the
boat and you're not gonna leave.
And so to me, to me, that was asuccess where I, I finally got
(14:22):
into a level of intimacy withthe Lord where I said to myself,
I trust him.
I trust him, and I'm willing todo this, to take this
adventurous step forward withGod.
So that marked a two yearjourney, uh, with IgM where I
joined them and helped, uh,rebuild their brand and left the
world of cookies and Oreobehind.
(14:43):
So there we go.
.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Wow.
I mean, how do you work up thecourage to make big changes like
that?
I mean, it sounds like in, inthat situation it was definitely
a, all right, I'm gonna trustyou God,.
But I mean, like throughout yourlife, have you, have you been
able to do that so easily?
I hate to say easy, cuz I knowthat wasn't easy, but it sounds
like it was just this verynatural, all right, we're gonna
do this.
(15:06):
So is that something you've beenable to do throughout your life
or was that like just a big Godthing in that moment?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
You know, I wanna say it was a God.
It was, it was, like I said, ajourney.
And I, I, I've used that word alot because it truly is
incremental steps, you know?
Mm-hmm.
, you think of how,you know, I graduated, I told
you from out of a home that wasvery focused on performance
achievements.
So it's very early part of my,my career.
It was about just the biggestjob you can get, the highest
(15:34):
paid salary you can get Resumebuilder.
That was, was the focus.
But God started to really pullme into this bigger narrative in
my mind, or conversation withmyself on purpose.
Like, what, why, why did Godgive me the skills has given me?
Why has he given me theexperiences?
What's the bigger story in allof this?
(15:56):
What am I, where, where, whereare all these gifts and talents
leading towards?
Cause I know they're from him.
Like, I'm not gonna take, it'sfrom him, so what does he want
me to do with it?
And I started to really wrestlethrough those questions, through
those experiences, like being infaith and work at Redeemer,
walking alongside otherChristian women that are
(16:17):
professionals and grapplingthrough those conversations
together, you know, prayingthrough purpose with them and
taking little, little steps.
So one, it was like maybe one athbs, I decided to, you know, get
involved with the Christianministry on campus and leading
ministry there.
When I went to New York and gotinvolved with Faith in Work, I
(16:40):
led the faith in work, you know,ministry for marketing and, uh,
you know, started to talk aboutthis concept and, and minister
to other professionals.
Then I started volunteering in,in, in, in the city, you know,
outside of my work and kind ofusing my background to help kids
, um, in Washington Heights, uh,you know, know more about Jesus.
(17:04):
So it was all these like little,little decisions that made me
understand that my life haspurpose, that I have been given
talents for a reason and I needto steward them well.
And so for me, that journey andthose little, little decisions
of, uh, and that belief systemthat was growing inside me got
me to a place where when I gotthat email from IgM, I said,
(17:27):
okay, I'm ready to take it tothe next level and take a step
of faith.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hmm.
Well, the next success that youlisted, actually kind of, we'll
carry that on a little bit.
So it was, you mentioned whenyou were able to take what you
had learn from your years in theprivate sector and successfully
apply that to the nonprofitarena.
So kind of keep going with that.
Like, like what was thatexperience like?
Like how satisfying was that to be able to do that?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, you know, I think it was satisfying in the
sense that it was an incredibleintellectual challenge to say,
okay, how do I go from marketingcookies, frankly, to talking
about human trafficking and what skills and, um,
principles of classical brandmarketing can I take across
(18:14):
industry?
So I think that was really funto say, okay, you know,
marketing is still marketing.
Whether you're marketing Oreocookies, you're talking about a
serious issue like humantrafficking.
You are, you know, marketing a,a car.
I mean, they're all, it's the,the, the classics of business
and marketing really areuniversal and transcend
(18:35):
categories.
And that's what I learned by,I've become a much better
marketer frankly, by, becauseI've been moving across
industries and, and taking myskills that I kind of learned in
CPG and taking it over, but toother industries and to
nonprofits, that was the funpart of it.
The hard part of it is that thisis kingdom work.
(18:57):
Like at the end of the day, Imean, all of the work we do is
kingdom work, I should say that,but, but in ministry there's a
much added layer of nuance.
Like, I've never worked withjust Christians, you know, and
where, you know, that's a muchharder thing to do because let's
face it, when you work in a, youknow, traditional work
(19:21):
environment, let's call it,that's, many people's faiths are
there, you can kind of hide alittle bit your Christian faith,
and you're not under amagnifying lens because people
aren't evaluating you because ofyour faith.
But if you're in ministry,that's the first thing people
see.
It's like, oh, are you, she beena really good Christian, she was
a little sippy in that meeting.
Or, you know, like, is shereally, does she really love
(19:43):
Jesus?
And like, that's hard.
So I had to really reconcilethis idea of I know what I
believe and I know my, but am Ifully expressing it in the way I
lead people, do my work, carefor my employees?
And yes, we should be doing thatall the time.
That's the lesson I learned, butin ministry, it really, like,
(20:07):
that was really what was at theforefront of my mind.
And I frankly, to come inashamed to see, I, I didn't
think about it as much before Iwas working in ministry.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, um, I'm curious to, tohear what you think about this.
Why do you think that God evenallows for us to experience
success in our life?
Like, what do you think hispurpose is with it?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Well, I think that there are tangible things God
wants us to do in the world, andhe needs us to be successful.
I mean, I, I wanna maybe go backto my original point about
success and failure.
Like I see it more fluid, but Iactually believe at the highest
(20:54):
order we are called to beexcellent at what we do.
We are called to be the best ofthe best.
We should be striving to do, tobe the best employee, the best
leader, the best businessperson.
And in through that journey,yes, you're gonna fail sometimes
and you're gonna succeedsometimes.
And that's what I'm saying, yougotta let go of that constraint
(21:14):
and that black and white view ofit.
But we are still called to bethe best in our spaces and where
we're leading.
And I, I think Christians of allpeople need to be excellent.
And so why I think God gives ussuccess, frankly, is that we can
be an incredible witness to, toGod.
I mean, to be able to say, I'man incredible CEO or a marketer
or a computer programmer and I'mgreat at what I do and I'm
(21:37):
succeeding, shows that you know,the, the excellence of God that
God has put in you and glorifiesand honors God.
I also think there is a work hewants us to do.
And if it, if you succeed, theKingdom of God succeeds all for
the scripture.
I mean, let's look at Esther.
If Esther was not successful in,you know, uh, going before the
(22:01):
king, you know, the Jews wouldnot have been saved.
You know, if Joseph did not, wasnot excellent in the prison, and
then when he got to the palacewas great at what he did, he
would not be able to lead Egyptthrough a time of famine.
The point is, there are actuallybig goals that God has in the
world for us to do, and he needsto show up and be excellent and
(22:25):
be successful, but I think thesuccess relies on him.
So that would be my third point,is that he gives us success to
us, to humbly understand that itnever comes from us.
It is truly his grace.
Yes, we participate, we have apart to play, but we've gotta
give it all back to him.
And so the beautiful and thedangerous part of success is
(22:49):
making sure you stay humble, notprideful, and you understand
that everything comes from him.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Next time on Driven Forward Sheba and I dive into
the setback she's encountered inher career and how God
strategically used each one todraw her back to him and his
plan for her life's journey.
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This episode is sponsored by Vision Trust.
Vision Trust is an organizationthat provides essential support
in the areas of health,education, and spiritual
development to children andadolescents living in poverty
around the world.
Vision Trust is brimming withfemale role models who are
investing in the next generationof women.
Their love is defiant.
(00:20):
It stands strong against allodds.
And yours can too.
Join us in raising up confidentyoung women that embrace their
God-given talents to create abetter future for us all.
Learn more@visiontrust.org slashThis is Driven Forward,
influential leaders powered byGod's will, hosted by me.
(00:42):
Jordan Johnstone.
The influential leader we willlearn from this month is Sheba
Phillip, a graduate of HarvardBusiness School, Sheba embarked
on a high performing marketingcareer helping to promote brands
like Oreo and JC Penn.
Although she was raised with theunderstanding that performance
was something to be perfectedand refined.
(01:02):
Sheba came to have a more fluidopinion on what a success and a
setback are and why God trulyallows us to experience both of
these happenings in our lives.
Let's listen as Sheba begins herstory.
All right.
Well, thank you so much forbeing here.
Um, and my first question foryou might be a little funny, uh,
(01:24):
but it's always so much fun tohear what people answer.
Um, so who is Sheba Phillip?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Oh my goodness, Jordan, that's a tough
No pressure.
Well, when you said that thefirst thing that came to mind is
Daughter of God, daughter ofthat's who I am.
That's what defines me.
I am his beloved daughter.
And I think that relationship isobviously expressed through
(01:54):
multiple ways.
I mean, I'm an actual daughterto somebody.
I am a sister.
I am a best friend.
I'm a leader.
But I think if you ask me who Iam at the core, I'm a daughter
of the most high.
I'm a daughter of God,
Speaker 1 (02:10):
As are probably a lot of the women in our audience
right now.
Um, so that's kind of a unifyingtheme for everybody.
Now, over the next two episodes,um, we are gonna be discussing
successes and setbacks.
Mm.
So to start off everything, Iwould kind of love to have you
define what does a success andwhat does a setback mean for you
(02:34):
personally?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Mm.
Well, I I think that, uh, youknow, we are all on a journey
with the Lord mm-hmm.
And I actually don't definesuccesses and setbacks as I
think the typical definition is,which is it's about accolades or
hitting some sort of scorecardor metric, or in doing that
(02:57):
well, or not doing that onefailing.
I think everything is ordainedby God.
Everything has a purpose.
And to me, success is are youlearning from mistakes?
Are you growing?
Yes, there's of course thetangible success of hitting it
out the park, hitting yourbusiness goals, overachieving
expectations.
(03:17):
But success in my mind is truly,are you on a, a journey with God
of learning, of growing, ofresponding to failures and
mistakes in a way that allowsyou to be further used for him.
Failure in my mind, frankly, issomeone who doesn't wanna grow,
who doesn't wanna learn from themistakes that they've made who
(03:38):
continue to repeat or, or kindof walk around the same tree or
around the same kind of desertover and over again because
they're not participating, uh,kind of in that journey and that
exploration with, with the Lord.
Um, but yeah, in the, in thetraditional sense, failure is, I
think, of course, we all wannacome into our work and have
successes as we deem them.
(04:00):
We wanna hit the bar.
And failure feels sometimes likeyou're falling short of that.
But like I said, I really wannaencourage, you know, those
listening to my story that I, Ithink success and failure is a
very black and white definition.
I, I think all of it is used byGod.
All of it is for his purpose.
And it's how we respond in thosemoments of disappointment, in
(04:23):
those moments of incredibleexcitement.
Um, it's, it's how we, how weapproach that that ultimately
makes it a success or a failure.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Have you always been this, like, out of the box to
think about it?
Or is this something that youkind of had to learn maybe in a
hard way,
black and white.
Let's, let's really kind of divedeeper into what could be
benefits behind both success andsetback?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think it is going through actually a
lot of kind of traditionalprofessional success and
failure.
I mean, I mean, I am not gonna,I I I would say you're right.
I have a little bit of a moreout of the box point of view,
but I'm not immune to the ideaof yeah, there's failure.
I have run businesses that havenot done well.
I have lost a job.
(05:11):
I've been told I'm not meetingexpectation.
Those are failures.
Those are, that's what we aretold are failures.
And they feel like failures.
They, they, they, they'redisappointing and they're hard
and they make you cry.
Um, yeah.
And there are moments of successwhere, you know, I went to
Harvard Business School and Iwas able to drive multi billion
dollar brands and I was able to,you know, really turn around,
(05:34):
you know, business situations.
Those are all, I would guesssuccesses.
Yes, they are.
But I think what is undergirded,all of it has been a growing
relationship with the Lord.
And said, when you ask me thatquestion, who are, who am I?
I am not, yes, I am a leader, Iam a business person, but I am
not defined by those, thosesuccesses and those failure.
(05:57):
I'm not even defined by what Ido.
I'm defined by who I am and whoI am, daughter of God.
And as you become closer andcloser in relationship with the
Lord, as you understand how muchhe loves you and how much, or I,
for me, how much I'veunderstand, how much he loves
me, how much he adores me, howmuch he sees me.
And it's not about what I do, itdoes relax the constraints
(06:22):
around how I see success andfailure, and frankly, how it's
informed that worldview.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Hmm.
Now did you grow up with, youknow, this mindset from your
parents of, you know, it's asuccess or it's a setback?
Or did you have parents thatwere more, Hey, you know what,
try failing a little bit
interesting to me to hear whatkind of a dynamic people come
(06:48):
from.
Because you know, in, in themoment when you're, you know, 10
years old and going, oh, I, youknow, I don't wanna fail, you're
gonna look back and go, oh, I'mglad I failed
I'm glad it was okay for me tofail.
So like, what, how did you growup?
Like what was, what was, youknow, the, the go-to term when
you were at home?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
It's so interesting you ask this question because
you'll be surprised when I sayit was, did you get an a, I
mean, that that was the go-toterm.
Yeah.
Did you get an a I grew up in aSouth Asian household.
I'm Indian American.
My parents were immigrants.
Uh, my dad came to the us he was18, uh, with dollars in his
pocket, you know, like the, the,the kind of classic immigrant
(07:29):
story.
And so work ethic and excellenceand, you know, having a strong
career, making good money,caring for yourself in an
independent way.
Those were values that he wantedto see in his family because he
came out of a place of povertyin India and he came to the US
to make a name for himself andhis family, and he loved the
(07:50):
Lord.
I grew up in a Christian home,but it was very much about
performance and achievement.
And I would argue that so muchof that is why I've actually
spent emphasized academics andeducation and grew my career and
have done, you know, wonderfulthings because of that
foundation of excellence, ofachievement, of stewarding your
(08:13):
talents and your gifts reallywell.
So in some ways it's quite theopposite of, of it is definitely
was not, it's okay, you failed,you made a mistake, move on.
It was definitely, why didn'tyou get that?
A, you only got an A.
So I, I grew up in thatmentality.
So my, my perspective on thistruly was informed, um, not by
(08:36):
my upbringing frankly, but itwas through just life
experiences.
It, it was through coming out ofbusiness school and working in
the faith and work space atRedeemer.
I, I attend the RedeemerPresbyterian in Keller's church
in New York.
I was really involved with faithand work, and that was where I
started to wrestle with, withwhat is my identity?
What does work look like?
(08:58):
What does success and failurelook like?
And then it was my real, just mypersonal journey with the Lord
just grew over time.
But my, my actual roots andwhere I grew up was all about
performance for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Same
well.
I mean, I'm the oldest of seven,um, and my mom homeschooled all
of us.
And so she was very on top ofhow we were doing academically
and, you know, yeah.
It, it was very much a, like yousaid, well, you didn't get an A
plus.
Yeah, I got an a
(09:32):
Right.
Um, but it, but I do like whatyou said though about how you
have kind of shaped Yes, yourviewpoint on this.
And I feel like there is acertain, I guess richness when
you get that opportunity to youfor yourself not carrying on
like something that yourfamily's always preached, but
like yourself as have actuallydug deep and gone, oh no, hey,
(09:54):
actually this is, this is howthis is.
You know, and this is how Ithink about that.
So that I like, I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Thank you.
I appreciate that,
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Well, so for today, we are going to discuss two of
the most important successes ofyour life.
Um, and you sent them to me, soI am not, I'm not putting that
label on them.
Uh, and the first success thatyou shared was when you made the
big
experience.
So what led you to thatdecision?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yes, you know, it was , um, gosh, probably 2010, um,
actually no, 2013 I was workingat Craft Foods and I was leading
, um, the global Oreo business,which was a phenomenal
experience and had a tremendouscareer at Craft, um, doing
(10:48):
really well.
Uh, in fact, I'm sorry, at thetime it was called, the company
was called Moda Lease.
It was originally craft becameModa Lease.
But, you know, I was working inthat company and at the same
time I was traveling to India alot for work, actually not
because of my personalconnection to India, my family
connection to India.
(11:08):
And when I was in India, Istarted to see so many, uh,
impoverished women and children,and saw the plight of the core.
And I thought to myself, okay,this is, this is, this is
obviously eye opening.
I wanna figure out a way to, uh,use my resources, even volunteer
my marketing skills to helporganizations that are fighting
(11:30):
human trafficking, helping womenin children particularly focus
in India.
I come back, uh, from that trip,and again, I'm at running the
global Oreo business.
I'm having a pretty fast pacedcareer, uh, loving what I'm
doing, but still starting tofeel really kinda like, what am
I doing?
Like, where is my purpose?
I've been at this company for 10years, I love it, but is there
(11:54):
something else that I can bedoing?
And, and my, that backdrop ofIndia and that those visions I
saw, or those visuals I saw ofthose women and children just
was sitting with me.
And that's when I got an emailout of the blue from a friend
who said, international JusticeMission, which is a large ngo,
(12:14):
uh, Christian ministry based inDC that's fighting modern day
human slavery, particularly inthe area of human trafficking,
working in countries like India.
They're looking for a vicepresident of marketing.
They're looking for someone tocome in and, you know, help them
build their brand.
And it was such a scary moment,Jordan, because I felt that call
(12:37):
from God.
I, I knew I just got back fromIndia.
I was struggling with like God,where I know there's something
bigger than this work that I'mdoing now, but there's also a
reason why I have all theseskill sets that they're not
wasted.
So what do I do with it, youknow, marketing and my business
degree?
And that's when I made thecourageous decision to say, okay
(12:59):
, I'm going to walk away from ahigh paying career from a
fast-paced executive career thatcould really move me to, you
know, CMO of a large publiclytraded company, you know,
potentially and dive intoChristian ministry, something
radically different.
(13:19):
And I'm proud of myself of that,of that decision.
And I do as a success becauseit's a spiritual success.
It, I, I, for me, it was moreabout the courage to step out in
faith with God.
I I get this vision of when Godcalls Peter outta the boat to
walk on the water towards him,and as long as his eyes are
(13:40):
fixed on Jesus, he can walkforward.
The minute he looks at thewaves, he starts to drown.
And for me, that was that realinvitation.
Are you gonna step outta theboat?
Are you gonna follow me?
Not knowing where this will go,but knowing this is an
invitation that I'm asking youto consider.
And if you do it, you gotta keepyour eyes fixed on me.
(14:02):
Cause the minute you think aboutthe money you're walking away
from, or the uncertainty ofworking in a ministry, uh, the
fear of where's my career gonnago after this?
The minute you look at that,you're gonna get back in the
boat and you're not gonna leave.
And so to me, to me, that was asuccess where I, I finally got
(14:22):
into a level of intimacy withthe Lord where I said to myself,
I trust him.
I trust him, and I'm willing todo this, to take this
adventurous step forward withGod.
So that marked a two yearjourney, uh, with IgM where I
joined them and helped, uh,rebuild their brand and left the
world of cookies and Oreobehind.
(14:43):
So there we go.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Wow.
I mean, how do you work up thecourage to make big changes like
that?
I mean, it sounds like in, inthat situation it was definitely
a, all right, I'm gonna trustyou God,
But I mean, like throughout yourlife, have you, have you been
able to do that so easily?
I hate to say easy, cuz I knowthat wasn't easy, but it sounds
like it was just this verynatural, all right, we're gonna
do this.
(15:06):
So is that something you've beenable to do throughout your life
or was that like just a big Godthing in that moment?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
You know, I wanna say it was a God.
It was, it was, like I said, ajourney.
And I, I, I've used that word alot because it truly is
incremental steps, you know?
Mm-hmm.
you from out of a home that wasvery focused on performance
achievements.
So it's very early part of my,my career.
It was about just the biggestjob you can get, the highest
(15:34):
paid salary you can get Resumebuilder.
That was, was the focus.
But God started to really pullme into this bigger narrative in
my mind, or conversation withmyself on purpose.
Like, what, why, why did Godgive me the skills has given me?
Why has he given me theexperiences?
What's the bigger story in allof this?
(15:56):
What am I, where, where, whereare all these gifts and talents
leading towards?
Cause I know they're from him.
Like, I'm not gonna take, it'sfrom him, so what does he want
me to do with it?
And I started to really wrestlethrough those questions, through
those experiences, like being infaith and work at Redeemer,
walking alongside otherChristian women that are
(16:17):
professionals and grapplingthrough those conversations
together, you know, prayingthrough purpose with them and
taking little, little steps.
So one, it was like maybe one athbs, I decided to, you know, get
involved with the Christianministry on campus and leading
ministry there.
When I went to New York and gotinvolved with Faith in Work, I
(16:40):
led the faith in work, you know,ministry for marketing and, uh,
you know, started to talk aboutthis concept and, and minister
to other professionals.
Then I started volunteering in,in, in, in the city, you know,
outside of my work and kind ofusing my background to help kids
, um, in Washington Heights, uh,you know, know more about Jesus.
(17:04):
So it was all these like little,little decisions that made me
understand that my life haspurpose, that I have been given
talents for a reason and I needto steward them well.
And so for me, that journey andthose little, little decisions
of, uh, and that belief systemthat was growing inside me got
me to a place where when I gotthat email from IgM, I said,
(17:27):
okay, I'm ready to take it tothe next level and take a step
of faith.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Hmm.
Well, the next success that youlisted, actually kind of, we'll
carry that on a little bit.
So it was, you mentioned whenyou were able to take what you
had learn from your years in theprivate sector and successfully
apply that to the nonprofitarena.
So kind of keep going with that.
Like, like what was thatexperience like?
Like how satisfying was that
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, you know, I think it was satisfying in the
sense that it was an incredibleintellectual challenge to say,
okay, how do I go from marketingcookies, frankly, to talking
about human trafficking and what
principles of classical brandmarketing can I take across
(18:14):
industry?
So I think that was really funto say, okay, you know,
marketing is still marketing.
Whether you're marketing Oreocookies, you're talking about a
serious issue like humantrafficking.
You are, you know, marketing a,a car.
I mean, they're all, it's the,the, the classics of business
and marketing really areuniversal and transcend
(18:35):
categories.
And that's what I learned by,I've become a much better
marketer frankly, by, becauseI've been moving across
industries and, and taking myskills that I kind of learned in
CPG and taking it over, but toother industries and to
nonprofits, that was the funpart of it.
The hard part of it is that thisis kingdom work.
(18:57):
Like at the end of the day, Imean, all of the work we do is
kingdom work, I should say that,but, but in ministry there's a
much added layer of nuance.
Like, I've never worked withjust Christians, you know, and
where, you know, that's a muchharder thing to do because let's
face it, when you work in a, youknow, traditional work
(19:21):
environment, let's call it,that's, many people's faiths are
there, you can kind of hide alittle bit your Christian faith,
and you're not under amagnifying lens because people
aren't evaluating you because ofyour faith.
But if you're in ministry,that's the first thing people
see.
It's like, oh, are you, she beena really good Christian, she was
a little sippy in that meeting.
Or, you know, like, is shereally, does she really love
(19:43):
Jesus?
And like, that's hard.
So I had to really reconcilethis idea of I know what I
believe and I know my, but am Ifully expressing it in the way I
lead people, do my work, carefor my employees?
And yes, we should be doing thatall the time.
That's the lesson I learned, butin ministry, it really, like,
(20:07):
that was really what was at theforefront of my mind.
And I frankly, to come inashamed to see, I, I didn't
think about it as much before Iwas working in ministry.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, um, I'm curious to, tohear what you think about this.
Why do you think that God evenallows for us to experience
success in our life?
Like, what do you think hispurpose is with it?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Well, I think that there are tangible things God
wants us to do in the world, andhe needs us to be successful.
I mean, I, I wanna maybe go backto my original point about
success and failure.
Like I see it more fluid, but Iactually believe at the highest
(20:54):
order we are called to beexcellent at what we do.
We are called to be the best ofthe best.
We should be striving to do, tobe the best employee, the best
leader, the best businessperson.
And in through that journey,yes, you're gonna fail sometimes
and you're gonna succeedsometimes.
And that's what I'm saying, yougotta let go of that constraint
(21:14):
and that black and white view ofit.
But we are still called to bethe best in our spaces and where
we're leading.
And I, I think Christians of allpeople need to be excellent.
And so why I think God gives ussuccess, frankly, is that we can
be an incredible witness to, toGod.
I mean, to be able to say, I'man incredible CEO or a marketer
or a computer programmer and I'mgreat at what I do and I'm
(21:37):
succeeding, shows that you know,the, the excellence of God that
God has put in you and glorifiesand honors God.
I also think there is a work hewants us to do.
And if it, if you succeed, theKingdom of God succeeds all for
the scripture.
I mean, let's look at Esther.
If Esther was not successful in,you know, uh, going before the
(22:01):
king, you know, the Jews wouldnot have been saved.
You know, if Joseph did not, wasnot excellent in the prison, and
then when he got to the palacewas great at what he did, he
would not be able to lead Egyptthrough a time of famine.
The point is, there are actuallybig goals that God has in the
world for us to do, and he needsto show up and be excellent and
(22:25):
be successful, but I think thesuccess relies on him.
So that would be my third point,is that he gives us success to
us, to humbly understand that itnever comes from us.
It is truly his grace.
Yes, we participate, we have apart to play, but we've gotta
give it all back to him.
And so the beautiful and thedangerous part of success is
(22:49):
making sure you stay humble, notprideful, and you understand
that everything comes from him.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Next time on Driven Forward Sheba and I dive into
the setback she's encountered inher career and how God
strategically used each one todraw her back to him and his
plan for her life's journey.
If you've enjoyed this podcast,please take a moment to
subscribe and leave us a reviewto let us know what you think to
learn more about Forward.
You can visit forward women.org.
(23:18):
That's the number four w o r d wo m e n.org.
Thanks for listening.
Many women ask how they canbecome a member of Forward
Journey.
Forward is the answer Forwardonly exists because of the
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When you give your time, talent,and treasure to forward, you
(23:42):
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work and life.
We have a big goal in front ofus to empower 10 million
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And you have a part to play yourfinancial gifts to forward
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