The Surprising Innovation in America’s Asphalt Pavement Industry

Asphalt is fairly ubiquitous – the material covers 94 to 95 percent of U.S. roads and 80 percent of airfields. But did you know that asphalt is one of the most recycled products in the world? On this episode of Driving Forward, host Andrew Stasiowski is joined by Nile Elam, the Vice President of Government Affairs for the National Asphalt Pavement Association, to talk about innovations in this important area of transportation.

Nile explains that increasing recycled asphalt usage by just 1 percent would be the equivalent of taking 25,000 cars off the road – greatly contributing to reducing yearly greenhouse gas emissions. But Nile says the asphalt industry needs better long-term funding, as well as permitting reform to insure projects are done on time and within budget.

Subscribe and listen for new Driving Forward episodes released each month. To learn more about the Highway Users, you can visit their website.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
(upbeat music)
- Hello, and welcome to the"Driving Forward Podcast."
I'm your host, Andrew Stasiowski,
of the American Highway Users Alliance.
(upbeat music)
We have a great episode onthe asphalt industry today,

(00:21):
and I wanted to talk about a few key ideas
that you should take awayfrom today's interview.
First, innovation has beencritical to the asphalt industry.
Significant progress has been made
to reducing the greenhouse gas emissions
from the overall transportation sector,
and we can dive deeplyinto what that means
for the traveling public.
Second, secure funding is essential.

(00:43):
We need a long-term funding solution
for the Highway TrustFund that allows for us
to make long-term investmentsinto our roads and bridges
across this country, and third,
permitting reform is essential.
We need a more coherent permitting process
to make sure roads andbridges are constructed
on time and at budget,and now, onto our show.

(01:07):
(upbeat music)
Joining us today is Nile Elam.
Nile is the vice presidentof Government Affairs
for the National AsphaltPavement Association.
Nile, welcome to the"Driving Forward Podcast."
- Yeah, thanks, Andrew, for having me.
Looking forward to the chat.
- Absolutely, glad to have you on.
So, you know, as we liketo do on every episode

(01:28):
of "Driving Forward,"why don't we start off
by kind of just level-setting?
Talk about National AsphaltPavement Association, or NAPA,
who are your members, you know,
obviously, pavement and asphalt,
but kind of what do you guysdo, what are your focuses on?
- Yeah, absolutely, so again,
thanks for the time today, Andrew,
and just to give an overview,I'll start with the industry,

(01:49):
and then I'll get into NAPA itself,
but I'm sure all of your listeners,
whether they realize it ornot, were probably on asphalt,
you know, as they were gettingtheir morning cup of coffee
or heading into work.
We are the primary material,as a road-paving material.
Our product covers roughly 94, 95%
of the entire roadway market.
So we like to thinkwe're pretty ubiquitous

(02:09):
with surface transportation funding
and infrastructure policy,and we're also about 80%
of the airfield market as well.
We have a big presence as it relates
to horizontal materials and paving.
Our industry is responsible
for roughly 400 million tons a year
in terms of product made,
and asphalt is a prettyrelatively simple product.

(02:31):
I'm showing to you a core sampleof just what it looks like,
but our product is mostly aggregate,
so rock, sand, gravel, and binder.
So the bitumen, the oil,
which is usually typicallythe bottom of the drum,
and that's the glue thatkeeps these materials together
and creates that black viscosity.
Our product is about 95% aggregate base,

(02:51):
and then the rest is binder,
and then a handful ofother different additives,
slurry seals, other materials you can add
to improve performance,increase maintenance activities.
Our product is also a fantastic use
of pretty much taking theundesirable materials,
so you can use tire andcrumb rubber in asphalt,
you can use single-use plastics.

(03:12):
It has a great kind ofcircular economy approach,
which is also what's big about our product
is that it's the mostrecycled product in the world,
it's the most recycledproduct in the country.
Not a lot of people know that.
Reclaimed asphalt product or RAP, R-A-P,
is what we like to call that shorthand,
and we did over 90 million tons of that.
So I know we'll diveinto a little bit more,

(03:33):
but that's essentiallytaking up the top two inches
of, typically, roadway, thosemillings, taking those out,
you can save on a lot of virgin materials
like the aggregate andbinder I'd mentioned.
You add a little bit of binder,a little bit emulsifiers
and additives, and then youcan put that same material
back down again, which isa really fantastic story.
In terms of NAPA itself,
National Asphalt Pavement Association,

(03:54):
so we represent those producers,
those contractors, those pavers.
We represent roughly 70% of that industry.
We're the lone nationaltrade association and voice
in Washington on behalf of our members,
and we represent roughly 1,100members, about 3,500 plants,
and our industry is responsible
for about 350,000hardworking men and women

(04:16):
who are either producingmaterial or laying it down.
So for a lot of your listeners,
if you don't know how the sausage is made,
you've probably seen it laid down
as you drive through a workzone, those are our guys.
So I'd say that's apretty accurate snapshot.
We touch pretty much everydistrict in every corner
of the country, coast tocoast, border to border.
- Great, I appreciate that overview.

(04:36):
I remember, when I was a Hill staffer,
it was always kind of,
some of these words kindof became interchangeable,
whether it's asphalt, cement.
What's the difference in types of projects
on the highway that you're seeing?
Like what's the differencebetween like an asphalt project
and a cement project, and howwould we differentiate those?
- So asphalt, we really see
as that performing materialthat's that top layer.

(05:00):
You know, we love asphalt to death,
but, you know, you wouldn'thave like two feet of asphalt
to create a base, you know,for a runway or a bridge.
It doesn't work very wellwhen it's stacked upon itself
because what's great aboutasphalt is that it's flexible,
depending on the viscosity,the mixes that you make.
You can have a lot more give,you can make it more rigid,

(05:20):
you can, you know, it's reallydependent upon the customer,
i.e., the state DOT or contractor to say,
"Hey, you know, here's whatthe performance and the specs
and the climate and the budget."
Concrete and cement, that really helps
as a base material for asphalt.
Obviously, it's also used alot in vertical construction
as it relates to, say,bridge construction,

(05:40):
but for our material, it'sreally taking that top portion
of the pavement that is intendedto be the most exhausted
regarding use, maintenance, wear and tear,
and that's where wekind of find ourselves.
So we like to think we're complementary
with our concrete and cement partners.
We have members who arevery vertically integrated,
that does everythingfrom aggregate to asphalt

(06:02):
to ready-mix, concrete cement.
We also, of course, have a lot of folks
that exclusively workin the asphalt space,
and, of course, our focuswill always be asphalt,
but I think we work complementary
with a lot of our constructionmaterial partners.
And, you know, when it comesto roadway construction,
as I mentioned, 94, almost 95%.
So there are cases whereconcrete paver is used

(06:23):
because of the durabilityor because of cost.
But it's primarily our material,and we're proud of that
and like to see that continue.
- That's great.
So, you know, if I'm buildingout a highway project
or they're gonna be adding,
is that gonna be moreof an asphalt project,
is that gonna be cement concrete project,
or could be a little bit of both?
- Yeah, it could be a little bit of both.
I mean, typically, that'sprobably gonna be more

(06:43):
of an asphalt project, particularly,
it's a preexisting road.
You know, we always make the point
that if a road is not performing well,
it's typically not that toplayer, but it's how the base
has performed, or when it wasset, or how it was maintained
'cause then that can createa lot of the stresses
that then kind of reverberateup to the top pavement.
And for our listeners, I'm notan engineer, so please don't,

(07:04):
you know, I'm sure I'mgonna have some colleagues
that are gonna be looking at me,
you know, kind of wide-eyed.
But having said that,
unless there are newlane miles being created,
where you do have togenerate the base material
and everything above it,for most highway projects,
for the jobs that I thinka lot of your listeners
are familiar with on theircommute, they are maintaining
or resetting that top layer material,

(07:25):
which is our asphalt product.
- So that's kind of theground-up road you'll see,
and then you'll lay thelayer down on top of that.
- Right, and we callthose the millings, right?
So you're taking those top couple inches.
And I think what's greatwhen we talk about RAP,
and what's so fascinatingabout this industry
that I've learned about,having only been at NAPA
since the beginning of 2023,is just how varied you can get.

(07:46):
You know, the pavement youwould lay down at an airport
is very different than thepavement that you would lay down
in your driveway or, youknow, driving up I-95.
Now, of course, you'dprobably think, "Well, duh,
you know, an airplane performsas a very different mode
of transportation thanyou would your Subaru."
But the way that thesemixes are put together,

(08:06):
and the type of aggregate that they use,
whether that's locally sourced
or from some other regional vendor,
the way that that binder is put together,
the way that you want thatrunway to perform based off,
you know, the weightof something hitting it
versus just a truck that'sgoing across the same lane miles
day after day, when you'retalking about velocity and torque

(08:27):
of, say, a jet engine taking off
versus someone who's got a heavy foot,
you know, yielding intotraffic, it's just incredible
when you can see allthese different mixes,
and that goes everything from, you know,
an Indy 500 racetrack allthe way down to, you know,
the neighborhood road that you drive to
to get home every day.
- Let's talk a little bit,
you mentioned this earlier
when you're describingwhat goes into asphalt,
and you mentioned oil and kindof the bottom of the barrel

(08:49):
on an oil.
We've seen a lot
in the world of permittingthe last few years,
coming out of CQ, coming out of, you know,
the admin, out of Congress.
What has the impact been on permitting
in terms of getting projects built,
both highways or runways,but also, you know,
the ability to get oil,how's that impacting the cost

(09:10):
of asphalt and increasingthe cost of projects?
- Yeah, you bring up a good point.
You know, when we talk energy policy,
opportunities to permit anddrill and extract, you know,
domestically available energysources compared to importing,
a lot of people probably don'tthink of the roadway market.
They don't think of asphaltproducers, but they do need to.
And we actually filla very important niche

(09:32):
because I mentioned earlierwe're kind of the bottom
of the barrel.
You know, when you have a drum of oil,
a predominant amount of that
is probably going towardscombustible engines,
you know, diesel, gasoline, thestuff that we use every day.
But it's this more kind ofthicker viscosity binder
that is really a primeproduct to use as an input
for asphalt, and there'sa lot of discussions

(09:53):
on how certain materialsshould be sourced,
you know, environmental impacts.
I'm a firm believer thateconomic and national security,
as well as opportunities tobuild our domestic workforce
and manufacturing, shouldn'trun mutually exclusive
to environmentalprotections and stewardship.
I think those arecomplementary, and, you know,

(10:13):
I think that has been a littlebit more of a discussion
with the policymakers that youand I probably interact with
on a daily basis.
However, I think, currently now,
there's a little bit of frustration
because we have such awealth of raw material,
you know, in and around our border
that I don't think we'retaking full advantage of,
and from an energy manufacturingstandpoint, you know,

(10:34):
the drilling capacity that we've had,
that extracts the kindof materials we need,
has certainly changed over the years.
There are refiners that have closed down
or have pivoted their economicmodel because, you know,
just based off what they have available,
they need to make thosebusiness decisions.
So it is frustrating, andit means in certain markets,
like, for instance, theNortheast, Pacific Northwest,
for example, it's difficult

(10:55):
to get that binder locally sourced
because the refining isn't there
'cause it can't be permitted
or the business has shifted entirely,
and because of that, thatmaterial typically comes
from, say, Canada 'causethey have a "sweeter crude"
is what we like to say, but in doing so,
then we talk about someother permitting items
and regulatory issues that wemay get into in Buy American,

(11:16):
and where that material's sourced,
so it's kind of this domino effect,
and if we skew towards one endof the pendulum or another,
that could have some reallysignificant reverberations
on disrupting what I seeis a relatively delicate,
you know, construction supply chain.
And once that runs afoul,that could really run amiss
with project delivery, with jobs,

(11:37):
with using taxpayer dollarsefficiently for, you know,
the roadway projects weall need and use every day.
- Well, let's dive into that.
We, you know, we just sawmanufacturing product waiver rule
come out of FHWA,dealing with Buy America,
and I know you guys dida lot of work on that.
Can you talk about that, but also,
how does that play in with the oil and gas

(11:59):
as you're talking about there?
Let's dive into that completely.
- Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
So, you know, we, NAPA,
as well as our constructionmaterial trade partners,
so the aggregate industry,the ready-mix industry,
the cement industry, we'vereally been in lockstep
ever since IIJA was startingto get off the grounds
back in 2020, 2021.
So we kinda have to take the clock back

(12:21):
almost four or five yearsbecause there were expansions
to Buy America thatultimately were enveloped
in this larger transportationpackage, and of course,
it was, you know, record funding amounts
and, you know, a lot ofother bells and whistles,
but you wanna make sure that those dollars
are spent responsibly andeven well-intended policies
of a Buy America issue, which, you know,
I'm sure a lot of yourlisteners are familiar,

(12:41):
but, you know, how yousource your workforce,
how you source your raw materials,
how you source your plantsand manufacturing processes.
Is that domestic?
If so, how much, you know,what does that in total cost
as it relates to theoutput of your material?
Is your material utilizedin federal procurement?
And we were very concerned
because a very aggressiveexpansion of Buy America,

(13:01):
fine, great, that's fantastic,but we have had a waiver
in place at FHWA since the early '80s
that would protect ourconstruction material inputs,
like aggregate, likebinder, like additives
that, as I had mentioned earlier,from a binder perspective,
can't be sourced locally in Maine,
that's really difficult, or New Hampshire,
or Seattle, Washington, andfrom the aggregate perspective,

(13:23):
if you're sitting in Florida,
where you're pretty much at sea level,
you know, there's not a lot of rock,
there's not a lot oflimestone to go around.
Pretty much any of the gulf communities,
from Texas to Florida,would have those issues,
coastal communities, and,you know, thankfully,
we have friendly tradepartners with Mexico and Canada
that fills the bulk ofthose raw material voids

(13:43):
that we can't get locally,but absent working on a waiver
and maintaining that exemption,
these Buy America expansionscould really make a problem
for how we source 400 milliontons worth of asphalt mix
that we utilize every year.
But we had worked hardwith the administration,
we worked hard with alot of folks on the Hill,
we worked closely withthe HUA and other partners
to really kind of hammer thatpoint, and happy to report

(14:06):
that, finally, this pastsummer, OMB last year
kind of affirmed thatconstruction material exemption.
But you pointed out,
they're still exploring the waiver process
and essentially pulling that all together
in that manufacturing threshold,and while our fight has,
I think, largely been quelled,we still have concerns
because there are otherpartners in this space,

(14:27):
like I'm thinking, on highwaysafety equipment, you know,
guardrails, signs, you know,
where that's sourced, and it's unfortunate
because I think there's alot of good ideas in play,
but I think no one isreally thinking about,
well, how does everybodyoperate, how do we implement?
And then when we're talkingabout these projects
through DOTs, where there'smulti-year planning processes,

(14:47):
there are hundreds if notbillions of dollars at stake
for the appropriate execution,
I mean, this impacts howcommunities are gonna operate,
how they're gonna design,how they see themselves
in 20, 30 years.
A lot of these policies arerunning afoul of ensuring
that those projects get onlineand get implemented properly.
So, you know, we continue towork, Andrew, with your team
to say, you know, there'sstill a lot of questions

(15:10):
before we have answers,
and we need to make surethis process is made easier,
simpler, and more navigable to implement
than just kind of putting out a North Star
of try to get it aslocally as best you can,
and when you can't, whatare your alternatives?
I mean, you can't build aroad without a guardrail.
You can't build, you know, a major highway
without the steel signs tellingyou what exit's coming up.

(15:30):
So even everything from thoselittle screws, you know,
it's important wherethat's sourced, I get that,
but we also gotta doit in a reasonably way.
So it's a policy that I thinkneeds a lot more massaging
before I think anyone wouldsay we did it correctly.
- Yeah, and I mean Ithink adding more time
to give companies andindustries to get in compliance
with kind of some of these requirements,

(15:50):
I think it's anaspirational goal for sure,
but we would need to make sure
that just because there may be one company
that can build something doesn't mean
that every company canget that product easily
if they're trying to build a road
or they're trying add aguardrail or whatever.
You know, when we're doingconstruction projects,
they have to be complete.
So you have to have everyaspect of it when you're,
you know, building a new road.
Can't quite build a road withouta guardrail or, you know,

(16:11):
lane markings or whatever it might be.
- Yeah, or the striping, yeah,
where the glass beads come from,
I mean, folks don't think about it,
and I don't even think a lotof folks in DC think about it,
why should they, but when theyput the policies together,
all of a sudden now,that's a vulnerable part
of the supply chain that noone ever thought to worry about
because maybe we could havenever sourced that locally
in the first place.
- Right, yeah, for sure,

(16:32):
flexibility is key in this.
So, yeah, we talked about IIJA, you know,
how has IIJA been for your industry?
How have you seen the projects?
I know, initially, therewas a lot of concern
that money wasn't reallygoing out the door,
but I think there's,
that seemed to have beenmoving a little bit faster.
I know there's also been concernsabout, you know, inflation

(16:53):
and the impact it's had on the ability
to meet all the constructiongoals we had in this bill.
How have you seen the billfor the asphalt industry?
- It's hard to think, Andrew,
that we're already at year three of IIJA.
You know, we're past the halfway point.
So the fact that we'realready starting now
to think about howimplementation's going now
because the next highwaybill's on the horizon,
it's just amazing how time's flown by.

(17:15):
Yet, in that same vein, Imean, we are very thankful
that Congress passed that,we are very supportive
of the senators, you know, the 67, 70-plus
that supported for the bill.
We had, you know, bipartisansupport in the House.
Only about 13 Republicans,but a lot of Democrats.
I mean, we're very appreciative
of everybody's efforts getting that ball
across the finish line.
And thank God we hadthat $500 billion plus-up

(17:37):
for state highway projectsbecause, as you pointed out,
I think inflationaryimpacts, workforce issues,
the supply chain, and Buy America comments
that we just went through,
a lot of that has reallyimpacted our industry,
not to mention just COVID
and how everything hasreally disrupted a lot
of how businesses traditionally operate.
Yeah, I think in some markets,it's grown a little bit.

(18:00):
In other markets, it'srelatively stagnant,
and we've seen, in a couple areas,
it's actually gone down slightly.
And one thing we've triedto tell members of Congress
is, you know, there are some companies
that have a more robust bottom line.
You know, they are showingsigns of investments
and expansion because ofthe investments provided
through IIJA, but if youlook at tonnage reports,

(18:21):
the tonnage is not anywherenear that we had anticipated
given the bump of what thisbill provided back in 2021.
And I think a lot of that isbecause costs are being eaten
from a regulatory standpoint, you know,
from permitting, from overhead.
When the bill first came out,FHWA had some mixed signals
on fix-it-first versus, youknow, working on new capacity,
so it's kind of the stop-go.

(18:42):
There's some state DOTs thatI think were well-prepared
and anticipated what was coming
and had their projects teed up.
I think there's someother state DOTs that,
through COVID or other means,
either had otherdistractions or priorities,
and so they've had a hardtime getting their dollars
out the door.
Thankfully, now that we'regetting into year three,
our hope, from a NAPA perspective,
is that we're really gonnastart to see a little bit more

(19:03):
of a takeoff because whilethere's a lot involved
from a formula fundingperspective, you know,
there's a lot ofdiscretionary spending too,
and that takes time to get out the door,
and that takes time toimplement in those processes.
But NAPA is working on somedocuments with our friends
at the road builders,
where we're gonna show astate-by-state breakdown

(19:23):
of not only the IIJA-supported projects,
but, you know, where asphalt was used,
how much asphalt, to kind of give a sense
because we have our StateAsphalt Pavement Associations,
which are our state partnersthat work on these policies
at the local and state level.
And you do a straw poll,and some of them are great,
some of them have have been very happy,
but there are others thatthere's a lot of frustration

(19:44):
and a lot of concern that, you know,
everybody thought we got thesun, the moon, and the stars,
but if you were to look at our projects
these last couple years,we're not making the inroads.
And I think that's gonna bea real interesting narrative
that a lot of us aregonna have to navigate
because you wanna beappreciative to the members
on the Hill of what we'veachieved, but the same token,
it's not enough.

(20:05):
And had we not gottenthat plus-up, you know,
things could be a lot more precarious.
So, a mixed bag, but I'm oneof those glass-half-full guys.
I mean, I think there's a lot of momentum
we could still build that IIJA provided
that will hopefully benefit us as we work
in this next congress withthis next highway bill.
- Yeah, I think, youknow, we've talked a bunch
on this, and I thinkChris Spear said it first,

(20:26):
but we've often said this isa once-in-a-lifetime bill.
And I think, from ourperspective, and I know,
from your perspective anda lot of our members',
we wanna change that to this should be
what the bill should be.
The bills need to be big.
We need to keep, we've got so much need,
I think it's 800 billion in the backlog.
We really need to be buildingand continue to invest

(20:46):
at this level because we,
in order to not onlymeet our current needs
but also the needs of ourfuture, we need to keep building.
So I think that ties into, you know,
one of our biggest concernsfor this next bill,
and I think the lesson,one of the lessons learned
is we need to fix funding.
So what do you think the potential issues
for funding will have on your industry

(21:07):
if we can't get a long-termsolution for funding
and general fund moneymay dry up down the road
as we deal with some of our debt issues?
You know, how is thatuncertainty of funding
going to impact your industry?
- You hit the nail on the head.
I mean, uncertainty is the Big Bad Wolf
as it relates toinfrastructure, investment,
and implementation because,you know, our members,
and a lot of our partners

(21:28):
and folks across theconstruction material space,
the investments in theirplants and their people
and the equipment, I mean,these pavers and trucks
are costing millions of dollars.
I mean that's not, youknow, that's not a line item
you just decide nilly-willythat you're gonna put it in
in one year and see what happens.
I mean you have to anticipatewhat your state DOT,
what your federal partnersare willing to put up

(21:50):
so that you can anticipateyour cost expenses.
Having said all that, the800-pound gorilla in the room
is what happens withthe Highway Trust Funds
given the current outlays.
I mean, while IIJA was a boonin terms of that investment,
like you had said, andI'm sure like Chris Spear
and others have mentionedon your podcast before,
you know, this is a over-utilized
and underfunded infrastructure network,

(22:10):
and what we got in IIJA wasnot everything we needed,
it was just a drop in the bucket.
And I think one of the bigitems that IIJA didn't address,
that I think a lot of us wish they had,
was creating more awareness,as well as consistency,
on new revenue generationfor the Highway Trust Funds.
I know I'm preaching to the choir,
but we haven't raised thegas tax in over 30 years.

(22:31):
We haven't tweaked this model whatsoever.
It's been a blank check fromthe treasury over the last,
you know, 15 years, 20 years.
And looking ahead, weneed to get more creative
because the mode and thetransportation vehicles
that are in front of us,and what a lot of other OEMs
are anticipating over thenext, you know, two decades,
are radically differentthan the car you and I drove

(22:53):
in high school.
So I'm trying to figureout a way to get Congress
to take that seriously, and I think now
that we've gotten that initialsurge of support for IIJA,
as you pointed out, wegotta keep that momentum,
so, you know, to run througha little bit of a scenario,
if we maintain those IIJA outlays
in terms of dollars out thedoor from the federal government

(23:14):
to our state DOTs, andwe don't do anything
to the Highway Trust Funds, by2028, if not soon thereafter,
it's gonna start running a deficit,
and over the next decade-plus,
that's gonna get in the tens of billions,
over 150, 200 billion bythe end of the next decade,
so it's imperative
that we have some reallytough discussions,
and NAPA certainly has a viewof being a little bit agnostic

(23:36):
in saying whatever getsus there, you know,
if you wanna get creativeon P3s, you wanna work
on a vehicle miles traveled,
you wanna work on registration fees
based off your vehicle,gross vehicle weight?
Great, fantastic.
You wanna capture the EV market, you know,
there's a lot of different levers
I think we could all be pulling,
but I think the onething no one wants to see
is to sit stagnant and have to worry

(23:56):
about some really big numbers
that get political very quickly
if we have to worry about transfers.
And there are some peoplethat I think are more
on the fringe of the politicalspectrums on either side
that say, "Well, just getrid of the trust fund,
just get rid of it, youknow, and go about it,
you know, through the treasury,"
well, then we're gonna getinto a debate of, you know,
is infrastructure fundingon the chessboard,

(24:18):
as you pointed out, withdebt limit negotiations
and everything else?
So I think we need to keepour little piggy bank,
we just need to make surethat we're responsible
in keeping it filled andnot expecting or hoping
that because who may hold the pen
or political favor acertain day determines
whether or not they'regonna cut a big check
to cover the massive amountof investments we need
to be making and should have been making.
- Definitely, having some kindof a consistent trust fund

(24:41):
that's predictable,
where we know how much moneywe're gonna raise every year
is essential because, as youpointed out earlier, you know,
you're making plans based
on not just what we think'sgonna be there next year.
You're making plans over whatthe investments are gonna be
over the next 5, 10, 15 years.
So whatever we do, you know,and we're working on a plan
as you know, you know,
I think we have to makesure it's predictable,

(25:01):
the revenue is expected, and it's secure
for highway fundingand highway investment.
So appreciate your thoughts on that.
- And one thing, just toquickly add on that too, Andrew,
I was on a panel with the new Dems,
and they had aninfrastructure round table,
and there were some partners,and one of the things
that a lot of us were sharing was,
look, IIJA had transformative investment

(25:22):
for the EV infrastructure,you know, charging network
for rural broadbands.
I mean, you know, worthy, worthy causes
that are outside of themore traditional scope
but, you know, ultimately,is infrastructure dollars.
But as we've discussed, there'sa lot that needs to be done
and investments that need to be made.
This next highway bill, we wouldlove it to be a big number.
We would love it to be atrillion-plus or whatever,
but not knowing whatNovember will give us,

(25:43):
I think it's also seeingthe forest from the trees.
It's understanding that thisnext highway bill really needs
to focus on highway fundingand highway projects
because everything thatreceives something in IIJA
that established or willguarantee a market going forward,
but we are working in a marketthat has been underfunded
for so long that while we got that bump,
we need to make sure we kind of stick
to the core policies and the core projects

(26:05):
before a lot of other thingsmay potentially be thrown in.
So maybe that next highwaybill isn't as big a number,
but on an annualdistribution basis, you know,
for investments on infrastructure,
it does everything we need to do.
We talked a little bit,but you look at the impact
that inflation had in thetransportation sector, I mean,
it really did eat away atmost, a lot of that investment
that we made, that increased investment.

(26:26):
So, you know, maintainingthat level, I think,
is gonna be big because it'snot as if we're gonna see
those inflationary costs recede.
They're not gonna go backdown to where it was the cost
to build a, you know, mileof highway was pre-2020.
So, you know, we gotta keep that in mind
as we're looking at these investments.
- You've touched on this a little bit,
but I know sustainability

(26:47):
and the reclaimed asphaltproduct has been a big issue
for you guys.
Maybe take that from the base level,
talk about what that means and, you know,
how much of that is justtrying to be thoughtful
with how you use all yourproducts and all that,
but kind of talk aboutthat issue a little bit.
- Yeah, totally.
I think this is an area whereour industry has long led,
and as I mentioned,
now that more environmental consciousness

(27:10):
has kind of entered the lexiconof pretty much any policy
in DC no matter what it is, Ithink we're well-positioned.
I mean, the construction material sector
is the largest carbon outputthroughout our economy,
and there are certain materials
that are much moreresponsible for that output,
but I know they're doing alot to increase, you know,
their carbon capture and netzero goals, which is all great.

(27:31):
We're all rowing in the same direction.
I think where we'rereally well-positioned,
and where I'm really proud ofwhat our members have done,
is I mentioned 400 million tons,
94, 95% of the roadwaymarket, I mean that is a,
that's a big bucket that wecarry, yet we're only .03%
of those carbon outputswithin our industry sector,
which is phenomenal.
So we may not get all the bellsand whistles if we take that

(27:53):
from .03 to .02, but that isstill a huge gain relative
to the ubiquitousness of our material
and how much it's manufactured,
and RAP is certainly a verykey process in how that works.
NAPA's long led on EPDs,environmental product declarations,
which is becoming morecommon now in how we acquire
and use the materialsthrough federal procurement,
and for those that don't know,

(28:14):
it's almost like thenutrition label that you see
on a bag of chips, that's how it's applied
for your material, so wheredid your aggregate come from,
your binder, how muchenvironmental cost was associated
with how it was extracted, transported,
manufactured, et cetera,but within the realm of RAP
that you'd asked about,the national DOT average
is right around 20% of RAP usage.

(28:35):
As I mentioned, over 90 milliontons were used last year.
There are some states, likeNorth Carolina, Virginia,
that have a much higher RAP concentrate,
like up in the upper 20s, low 30s.
You can actually takethat RAP pretty high.
And there are a ton of verysmart reports written by people
that I could never keep up with
that outline how successfulthat is from a performance

(28:55):
and spec process, and thinkof New York City, right?
You know, there's, you're notgonna find an asphalt plant
in the Financial District,but they have to recycle,
they have to use whatthey have in front of 'em,
so they try to recycle as muchof that roadway as they can.
So they're almost up to, you know,
100% just within the city alone.
But I think what is reallyfascinating is if we're able
to increase RAP usage at anational level by just 1%,

(29:16):
that's the equivalent oftaking over 25,000 vehicles
and their greenhouse gasesoff the road every year.
So it's a great stat, andit, and again, it delivers
on cost, it delivers on performance,
and it delivers on execution.
RAP is not always gonnabe the solution everywhere
all the time, but I think afocus that we hope to have
is just making sure that ourDOT partners, both here in DC

(29:37):
and across the States,just have an understanding
that the studies that maybethey solve RAP from, say,
45, 50 years ago, it's muchdifferent than where we are now.
And the different additives, emulsifiers,
and other byproducts youcan include in that material
to not only make it last butperform well is phenomenal.
So we're really proud of that endeavor,
and we've been working on billsthat address decarbonization

(29:59):
in the construction materialspace 'cause we think,
"Hey, there's a lot of good stories here.
Let's not prescribe what should happen,
but let's complementwhat the industry's doing
in trying to get thatdeployed more markets
and more frequently."
So I think there's a lot there
that we're certainly proudof, but there's always more
that we could be doing, andwe're leading that charge.
We have a 2050 net zero carbon goal,

(30:20):
like some other industries do as well,
and we're very proud of that.
But it took a lot of ourmembers seeing the long picture,
and I think embracing thatno matter who's in charge
in the next 5, 10, 15, 20years, this is an issue
that can't be swept on the rug or ignored.
And you'd rather be better positioned,
particularly, if it impactsfederal procurement now
than playing catch-up after the fact

(30:40):
and finding a lot of otherdifficult conversations
that you need to have.
- Great use of a recycled material that,
you know, we, instead ofjust paper, it's a great way
that we can actually driveon these recycled materials.
That's awesome.
Let's move into our last question.
We've asked every guest this.
If you could do one thing, ifyou could wave your magic wand
and implement one policyfor the asphalt industry,

(31:02):
what would that be?
- One policy for the asphalt industry.
And just so I'm clear,
so I'm understandingthe question correctly,
this is just something, apolicy within the NAPA universe?
Are we talking about like,hey, if there's a highway bill,
you know, next year, do X, Y, Z?
- Whatever you think would be
the most transformational,so, for example,
you know, we've had, oneanswer was, you know,
truck parking was thebiggest thing that ATA said.

(31:25):
So, you know,
whatever you think wouldbe the most impactful thing
to help your industryin the highway space.
- Honestly, I think it wouldbe a more collaborative
and graceful approach of new mix designs,
which we call performance-based specs
or a balanced-mix design,where certain decision makers,

(31:46):
whether they be from the political side,
or like an engineer at a stateDOT or FHWA, really utilizing
and taking advantage of alot of different recipes
that you could get the sameoutcome instead of saying,
"When I make a batch of cookies,
it has to be a ton of chocolate,
and I don't care if there's,you know, too much sugar
or flour or whatever."

(32:06):
We kind of see thatsame with asphalt mixes.
There's, you do hot, warm,cold, you can use RAP,
you can use plastic,crumb rubber, you know,
the list goes on and on.
And I think one thingthat would be beneficial
is just making sure thatfolks see it holistically
and not using just one defining attribute
to determine your outcome,but using all of them
as a complement to each other,

(32:27):
but it kind of gets back to RAP.
I mean, if we're ableto increase that usage,
I mean, that's material thatdoesn't have to find itself
in a landfill or sitting,you know, in a yard
at a producer site.
It's getting back on thematerial and the roadways
that they were intendedto be used all along.
I think as we start to increasethat greater flexibility
and appreciation forwhat a material could do,

(32:50):
and I don't even think thisis really just asphalt,
I think there's a lot of materials
that could fill this void too,
I think you find yourselfgiving yourself more leeway
and not a rope to fail, butjust giving more opportunity
to explore and say, "You know,we've always done hot mix,
but let's try a warm mix,let's try a cold mix,
let's try these materials,those materials,"
and just getting a chance forthose to prove themselves.

(33:12):
You know, I think, as wespeak within the NAPA world,
a lot of engineers, you know,when they find a solution
to a problem, they usually like to go back
to that same solution.
So I think it's just making sure
that we have that wholerecipe book afforded to you,
and whether that's a brand new road
with brand new materials,different inputs,
different emulsifiers, RAP, whatever,

(33:32):
I think that's somethingthat could go a long way
in not only improving how we build roads
and how we think of roads, butreally, how we are ensuring
that that environmental responsibility
is not only adhered tobut actually implemented.
- Well, thank you so much, Nile,
for coming on today, andthis was a great interview,
and I look to have youon again sometime soon.
- Yeah, thanks so much,Andrew, really appreciate it.
(upbeat music)

(33:56):
- All right, I wanna thank Nile
for coming on to the podcast today.
I think it was a great interview,
and I hope we all learned alot about the asphalt industry.
Please continue to listen to and subscribe
to the "Driving Forward Podcast"
wherever you get your podcasts.
(upbeat music)

(34:21):
(bright music)
- Next topic.