April 20, 2021 • 32 mins
In this episode of Stanford’s Drop the MIC podcast, we hear from A&R professionals spanning over 20 years of music industry history. We have Daouda Leonard, a tried and true vet who was part of the generation that christened the internet age of brand building. Alongside him we have Bekah Flynn, an A&R rep at an indie record label who saw the rise of streaming platforms during her career and has learned when to leverage the numbers, and when to rely on her intuition. Finally, we speak to Sam Kolton, a millennial A&R rep who brings a fresh perspective to her rosters with her mastery of music data and analytics that she sees as the future of the industry. By putting these three perspectives in conversation, we view the artist development world from a vantage point that gives us all the insights into the lifespan and history of A&R.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay (00:06):
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into
conversations with some of themusic industry's most
established professionals.
Like all of our episodes, whatyou will hear today has been
created and curated by Stanfordstudents who are breaking their
way into the music scene.
I'm Jay LeBouef and I leadStanford University's music
industry initiatives.
Whether you're aspiring tolaunch your career in the music
industry are already a musicindustry pro, or just curious to
(00:29):
learn more.
We've got you covered.
Keenan (00:40):
Welcome to the A&R, artists and repertoire podcast.
A&R is a division of a recordlabel or music publishing
company, and it is responsiblefor signing artists, and
overseeing the artists, andtheir development.
We'll be looking at thebeginning of journeys in the
music industry, the stories,working in the industry today,
(01:04):
to the innovation that is takingplace and changing the music
industry forever.
And by listening to thispodcast, listeners will learn
the skills that'll help them besuccessful in the changing space
of A&R today.
Jaiden (01:20):
So who do we have on today?
Tash (01:22):
I can kick us off.
So I interviewed my friend, SamKolton, who is a 31 year old in
the music industry, who workedat red bull for many years,
doing A&R.
She started in music throughmore of a data center company,
so she has this great databackground that I think a lot of
Stanford students will be ableto relate to.
(01:44):
But then she also has thecreative side of things as well.
So we definitely get that newage A&R perspective from Sam.
Mike, do you want to tell us alittle bit about your guest?
Mike (01:57):
For sure.
We are super lucky to have BekahZietz Flynn here with us today.
Bekah is an experienced A&R Repat Sub Pop Records and has
worked with Sub Pop for morethan 10 years.
Sub Pop has a long history ofsigning groundbreaking artists,
from Nirvana and Soundgarden inthe 80s to Iron Wine and Beach
House today.
Bekah's career in the musicindustry began with college
(02:17):
radio at the University ofVermont, a stint trying to make
it in New York City and finallylanding an internship with Sub
Pop after moving to Seattle.
Keenan.
Can you tell us a little bitabout our other guest, Daouda?
Keenan (02:28):
Daouda Leonard is the founder and CEO of CREATESAFE, a
music technology company workingwith Grimes, BloodPop, HANA, and
other artists.
He has worked as a manager,publisher, producer, A&R and
creative director, and hiscreative work has led to over 15
(02:49):
billion global media impressionsand sales for artists like Lady
Gaga.
Drake, Madonna, Kanye West, Ms.
Lauryn Hill, The Weeknd, andJustin Bieber.
He went to NortheasternUniversity's School of Business
and graduated with a degree inManagement Information Systems,
(03:10):
and worked on Wall Street as anInformation Technology Analyst
at Tudor Investment.
He balanced full-time work withschool while simultaneously
being an innovator in the realmsof music file sharing, and the
Internet's transformation of themusic industry that preceded the
rise of music streaming.
(03:32):
An individual helping empowerartists and inspire the future
of the music industry, pleasewelcome Daouda Leonard.
Daejon (03:39):
Let's get into it.
Let's hear about how they gotinto the industry.
Keenan (03:43):
I was wondering if you could talk about how you got
into the music industry andmusic business in the first
place.
Daouda (03:49):
The quickest way to answer that is to say that I
love music a lot, I loved havingaccess to it, I think like
that's what the internetprovided me when I was in
college.
My freshman year, it was 1997.
And, I tell this storysometimes, which is like, you
know, I grew up in New York andright before I left to go to
college, one of the stores thatI would normally buy CDs from
(04:09):
had this Busta Rhymes album,maybe two weeks before it was
supposed to come out.
So I bought it and I was able togo to school, with this CD, and
it was sort of like my, it'slike a way in which I like was
able to connect with otherpeople.
It was like, Oh, I had this, Igot this new music.
You want to come listen to it inmy dorm room.
(04:30):
and like, you know, thinkingback at that time, it wasn't
because I wanted to be in themusic business, like that's not
what I was thinking.
I wasn't even a music major, youknow.
I was a Physical Therapy majorto begin with and then moved
into Computer Science andManagement Information Systems.
At no point in time did I thinkI wanted to be in the music
industry, but I was just reallypassionate about music.
when I came back to school mysophomore year, I had a new
(04:52):
computer.
Northeastern had a T1 line, orat least I discovered what that
was and now I had like highspeed internet and a brand new
computer.
And I was like online and wasgetting access to all this like
bootleg music essentially.
because you know, Northeasternis where Napster was created and
there were other things outthere that, you know, more
(05:13):
sophisticated than Napster whereyou could get access to music.
And I just was like superpassionate about that and being
able to like, show people, mycuratorial kind of like tastes
and that led to, my otherpassions were in like building
websites at the time, like in99, that's when I started to
become like a web developer.
and I was like, well, I canmerge my interest in music and
(05:36):
development, and build artists'websites.
And that was like the firstthing and still at that time, it
wasn't like particularly focusedon Oh, I want to do this because
I worked in the music industrywas just like, I want to find
people who need this type ofskillset and apply it.
Mike (05:57):
So Bekah, tell us how you got into A&R.
Bekah (06:00):
For sure.
So my journey, I guess, into theA&R world, I think kind of just
ties back into my journey intomusic.
I've always been a music fan,but for me, it wasn't until I
got into college radio thatreally kind of navigated and
shifted what I thought about inregards to a career in general,
I kind of always knew that Iwanted to enter the world of
(06:21):
entertainment.
I kinda thought I was going togo into the theater acting
world, as opposed to the musicworld.
And when I got into college thatreally shifted.
I started becoming reallyinvolved in my college radio
station, I quickly became themusic director of that station,
and through my relationshipswith different radio promoters
that I talked to from my job atWRUV that really kind of made me
(06:45):
realize Whoa, I could get paidto talk about music all day",
which is something that I love.
Mike (06:51):
Awesome.
How did you get to know Sub Pop?
Bekah (06:54):
I was always obsessed with Sub Pop.
Obviously, Nirvana was a bigband and musical influence for
me.
But more so even just likeMudhoney, and L7 those are just
really important groups for methat I, that I really always
respected.
And, in the mid 2000's, aroundthat time with the Postal
(07:14):
Service, The Shins, Sub Pop waskind of getting a new, like.
Sonic shift of artists and kindof blowing up on a different
level.
And so, you know, The Shins,(The) Postal Service, Iron Wine,
Band of Horses, those artistswere really becoming influences
in bands that I listened to andwanted to support.
And so I was like, all right,I'm going to go to Seattle and
intern at Sub Pop.
And so I was very grateful thatI was able to get an internship
(07:37):
there and that kind of shiftedinto my job, getting hired
part-time in the radiodepartment.
Tash (07:45):
So I met Sam while I was interning under Amanda Schupf,
who was a management consultant,creative consultant, and just
all around great person to knowin the industry.
And she knows Sam from theirdays at Red Bull Songs together.
Sam's love of music came fromattending Bruce Springsteen
concerts with her parents whenshe was a kid.
(08:06):
However, it wasn't until shemoved to Los Angeles from
Chicago, that she was able tostart to making a career out of
it.
Starting in ManagementConsulting, she began her music
career at Creative Arts Agency,working closely with artists,
agents, and industry executivesto help artists understand and
maximize their digital footprintin the marketplace.
(08:28):
Following CAA, she joined RedBull Songs, Red Bull's music
publishing team, where shesigned new talent and worked
with the roster of artists,songwriters, and producers,
providing creative services suchas setting up co-writes and
collaborations.
And though Sam now works as asenior manager at SongTradr,
(08:49):
she's here today to talk to usabout her experience in the A&R
world.
What was your official titlewhile you were at Red Bull?
Sam (08:57):
So, it's funny because it was a working title, but I think
you could just call me likePublishing Creative.
Publishing Creative...essentially is like A&R, you
know, we were responsible withscouting, signing talent, and
then once they were on theroster, actually working with
them in a creative capacity.
So anything from pitchingrecords, setting up co-writes.
(09:21):
Oftentimes, you know, especiallyif an artist was independent and
maybe didn't have a label tohelp with some of the label
services we could help with, youknow, feature ideas and really
anything creatively to kind ofbenefit the final music product.
Tash (09:37):
Okay, and could you, for the listeners, make that
distinction of publisher versuslabel?
What's that, what's thedifference between those two?
Sam (09:44):
Yeah.
So, you know, when I think of asong, I think of it kind of as,
you know, one whole entity, butthen if you were to split it
into, you have the master sideand the copyright or the
publishing.
So the master side, which isconnected with the label is
really the, that soundrecording.
So anytime you hear a song onSpotify or on the radio, that
(10:07):
kind of like physical, tangiblerecording is what, you know, we
would call the master.
And really, when I think about alabel, not only are they
responsible for creating thatproduct, but once it is out in
the commercial market, marketingit so that it can get in front
of as many people as possible.
And then publishing, you know,so we're really dealing
(10:28):
primarily with songwriters,producers, some of which also
have outward facing artistprojects, but we're responsible
for getting our client's musicwith either bigger label artists
or getting it out in thecommercial market.
Mike (10:47):
So I'm curious, like in the traditional sense of A&R,
you always think of the guy inthe back of the club, just
waiting for that next big hit,going to shows every night,
scouring records, listening tomix tapes.
So how does your professionnowadays hold up to that
stereotype or that image of anA&R rep?
How do you guys find artists?
On top of that, how has COVIDchanged your experience finding
(11:09):
artists?
Bekah (11:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think pre-pandemic it was the same
kind of thing that you weresaying.
It's like, I would listen to aband.
The process is still the same,it just has just changed because
obviously I'm not going toshows, no one is.
But for me, you know, I look atPitchfork and Stereogum and
like, all of the music outletsevery day.
So I know the bands that arelike the new artists that are
(11:32):
kind of blowing up, right?
That, that are getting theStereogum like.
New Artist feature or, you know,Pitchfork Rising and stuff like
that.
And those are, 99% of the timethose bands are already on my
radar.
I already know who they are.
I think that honestly, one ofthe biggest websites that have
really kind of come in anddominated especially during the
(11:54):
pandemic is Bandcamp.
The way that they've navigatedthrough editorial and combined
it with retail is I think geniusand I use their recaps all the
time because I think thatthey're a little bit more
obscure than like, just, youknow--Pitchfork and Stereogum,
love you guys, but like,-- Ithink that they really do really
deep dives into punk andelectronic and indie and
(12:17):
different genres of music thatI, 99% of the time, I'm like, I
had never heard of this artist.
Mike (12:27):
In talking to Bekah, I was surprised to hear how heavily
she used online music, blogs,like Stereogum Pitchfork and,
especially, the Indiedistribution site BandCamp to
find artists.
When Keenan and I interviewedDaouda Leonard, we made sure to
get his take on these sites,given his background in
developing personal websites forartists like Clinton Sparks.
Here he outlines how A&Rhappened in the hip hop world,
(12:49):
as artists began promoting theirmusic online in the late
nineties and early twothousands.
Daouda (12:53):
I think at the time, like websites were still like in
a very, it was, it was sort of avery expensive kind of concept,
and like the artists that didhave them were like probably
signed to a major record label.
And, there was a lot of fundingbehind that.
And I was attempting to do thatfor people who didn't even know
that they needed a website atthe time.
And so for me, my journey intothe music industry from that
(13:14):
perspective started with likemixtapes, that's where I was
really focused at.
And I think that's where atleast in hip hop, that's where a
lot of A&R was focused on.
Like that's how A&Rs woulddiscover new music, you would
hear about a new artist from amixtape and that's probably
like, that's more like, 2002,2003 ish, maybe four, but then
(13:40):
like right around'03,'04 iswhen, like the mixtape game went
online.
You know, Napster and all ofthat, or like, Oyster and
Limewire still existed, andpeople would like rip the
mixtapes and they would get onthose services.
But generally speaking, peoplewere like, going to the mixtape
websites, buying these mixtapes,you know, or getting sent the
(14:02):
mix tapes and hearing about adifferent artist in the Bay Area
or Atlanta or wherever.
And then, you know, being ableto go after signing that.
So it was like DJs weredefinitely at the forefront of
breaking new artists andbreaking new music, which is how
it got to the record labels tobe signed in the first place
(14:22):
like, that's just, that's myexperience of it.
I think DJ's, and slashproducers have always been at
the forefront of the A&Rprocess, in either helping an
artist to like, craft theirsound or helping an artist to
get their sound, their brand toa wider audience.
Like traditionally, A&R withinrecord labels is to connect
what's happening in the streetsto the actual record label,
(14:46):
where they can go and expandthat artist brand to a larger
audience.
Tash (14:52):
So Sam, I'm curious, how do you go from the maybe 10, 20,
even 50 prospects that you findto the handful of artists,
producers, songwriters that youactually end up signing.
Sam (15:08):
So of course, for me, it's always about the music.
If I, if someone has crazynumbers and crazy growth and I
listened to a song and I'm like,I don't get it, this isn't
something I feel I can workwith, like that, you know,
that's that for me, But if Ihave, you know, two artists I'm
looking at, and both of them,I'm like super excited and
(15:28):
inspired by the music, and thenI go check out their data, I
might see that artists A hasbeen like growing crazy amounts
on Instagram and has a veryengaged audience and does some
awesome content and really kindof has their brand more
solidified, I might lean towardstrying to be in business with
(15:49):
that artist over someone who haszero social presence, doesn't do
a ton of engaging with theiraudience only because I know how
important putting a focus onkind of that brand, especially
for like an, an artist is, and Ithink ultimately will help them
be more successful.
Jaiden (16:10):
It's interesting to see how different A&R reps in
different parts of the industryfind their artists.
Keenan (16:15):
Yeah, it almost feels like Bekah using her website
platform and Sam too.
Going through blogs.
They're working off the otherplatforms that Daouda and his
generation spent a lot of timebuilding.
Mike (16:26):
Totally.
Whether it's flipping throughrecords or music blog articles,
A&R reps get the job done.
But what happens once the artistis signed?
Me and Bekah talked a bit aboutthe creative relationship
between the A&R rep and theartist.
There's that stereotypical ideathat like, Oh, you get signed
and all of a sudden you're likein this room with lava lamps and
crazy mastering engineers andstuff.
Bekah (16:47):
I mean, I've gone into the studio to hear sounds and
stuff over the years withartists, but that's not, I don't
go in and going, well, you know,like,"Oh, it feels like you need
to like move this level up ordown.
Or,"What if you try to do this,this and this?" I mean, and also
I have been like, you know, Ithink that the closest I get to
maybe a traditional A&R thing islike, if someone turns in and
(17:09):
asks me to listen to thesequencing, there've been times
where I'm like, yeah, dude,like, maybe don't start this
with like, a 10 minuteinstrumental, like don't record
a 10 minute instrumental.
Mike (17:22):
Yeah.
Sam (17:23):
I think it's like super important to also remember how
subjective music is.
So I personally, whenever I'mgiving feedback or any type of
like subjective opinions, Ialways make sure to preface,
like, this is my opinion.
I have my listening tastes.
I think there are things to lookout for that are more objective.
You know, if someone writes asong and it's a concept about
(17:45):
falling in love on the dancefloor, you know.
It's not the most, not that asong like with that idea, can't
come and be a huge record, buttypically if something has been
done or there's a ton of othermusic talking about the same
thing, like that's a piece offeedback I could give.
Or if I love a song, but I'mlike, the chorus is a little
(18:05):
wordy.
A lot of what I do is kind ofabout like establishing
relationships, and a goodrapport.
So if I have worked with awriter for years, maybe we've
kind of already had aconversation about how they want
feedback and news.
And if I know, you know,sometimes someone's writing
about something that's superpersonal and cathartic for them.
(18:27):
And maybe the goal was not tomake a record that's going to go
and become like a number onedance record, but it's actually
something that has a differenttype of like, meaning for them.
I like to be cautious of all ofthose different scenarios.
Mike (18:43):
Daouda gave some great thoughts on how A&Rs can make
themselves useful to artistsduring the creative process as
well.
Do you feel pretty involved inthe artistic and aesthetic
development process that anartist goes through?
Daouda (18:56):
That's how I've always been able to create value for
the people that I've workedwith, which is like having an
opinion and cultivating thatopinion so much so that it's
like a part of my, I guess, liketalent or skillset.
Being able to cultivaterelationships with other people
so that you can bringopportunities to your client.
(19:17):
Being able to have a informedopinion about the music so that
your artists can like take thatinto consideration, and make
their decisions based on likethe advice that's being given.
And also being able to provide,critical feedback around the
(19:38):
actual, process of creation.
So, knowing what sounds good ina sense like, you know, which is
subjective, but like being ableto be like, okay, I have an
understanding, like (19:49):
that could hit harder, the vocal could be
clearer.
So being able to speakconfidently about the actual
idea that's being created.
Tash (20:01):
I mean, I think this segment was super interesting.
I think it's really interestingto see how unique each A&R
experience is in terms of likehow involved they are in the
creative process.
Jaiden (20:13):
And also how, individual it is, the relationship with the
client.
Keenan (20:18):
Exactly.
It felt like Daouda reallyprided himself in his ability to
have a creative eye.
Tash (20:24):
Yeah, I think that makes sense, like, given his focus on
really creative and uniqueartists like Grimes that he
would want to have a kind of acreative input on, on his
artists and in terms of his A&Rprocess.
Keenan (20:38):
Yeah.
Whereas Bekah was more hands offin that sense, and maybe more
focused on the marketing.
Jaiden (20:45):
I think in that regard, the other big component of A&R,
besides the creative feedback,is building a brand and taking
advantage of platforms to getyour artists, music, face, name
out there.
Nowadays, that means socialmedia.
Mike (21:00):
I'm curious how all of this has changed due to the rise
of streaming and social media.
How was your job 10 years agoversus now?
What was, like, a day in thelife 10 years ago versus now?
Bekah (21:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, honestly, it's
hard because I think that insome ways it's hard to isolate
the A&R process and separate itfrom necessarily the marketing
component.
The reality is, for me, I don'tlook at social numbers or how
many streams they have on Bay.
Like, I mean, I should say this.
I do look at that stuff, right,like, I'm like, if there's a
newer artist and no one has everheard of that, I'm like, man,
(21:34):
this record is insane.
You know, I look at that stuffto go, whoa, this is cool that
they're already up on Spotifyor, have some following.
But I don't think to us, we'renot necessarily signing up
artists because they have 75,000Instagram followers or
something.
The co president of Sub Pop,Tony, just signed this artist
named Hannah Jadagu and I thinkshe's a really perfect example
(21:56):
of like, she has not very muchstreaming like on Spotify.
She has maybe I think now weannounced a new track and I
think she maybe has a thousandor so Instagram followers.
I think that we're reallyhelping build her identity as an
artist from the kind of theground up.
And, obviously the socialnumbers and Spotify, those are
(22:17):
extremely important to ourmarketing of artists.
But, on the a and A&R front, Idon't necessarily look at that
when I'm trying to sign a band.
Mike (22:26):
Much of Daouda's work early on building websites for
artists seem to preempt a lot ofthe social media use that we see
with artists these days.
So we had to ask him how he feltabout social media.
Daouda (22:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm one of those peoplethat had to succumb to the idea
that not everybody wanted theirown website.
Like I was actually, like, umnot a fan of MySpace.
Like I understood it, but I wasjust like, it doesn't make sense
to give your brand to their realestate, when you can build your
own real estate.
And then Myspace became sopopular and I had to be like,
(23:01):
damn, like no one cares aboutgoing to these artists'
websites.
So I got to like, maybe like atleast get with the program and
begin using Myspace and pushingartists to use Myspace.
When Twitter first started, Iwas like, onboarding people to
Twitter.
When Instagram first started, Iwas onboarding people to
Instagram.
Spotify I had like early codesto get people on Spotify before
(23:26):
they launched in the U S.
So yeah, like I went from beinglike, no, you gotta do
everything and you have to buildyour presence yourself to
recognize like they, with theseplatforms that we're giving
people an opportunity to createa wider audience.
Mike (23:41):
Daouda admits that artists have to use social media to
their advantage, but he takes itone step further to talk about
the future of social media.
Daouda (23:48):
But what I still recognize today and, you know,
it's like, Instagram is dyinglowkey What happens as it dies,
because Facebook is definitelyin my opinion, dead.
And so now you've built up allthis real estate, and you're
literally just leaving it.
It's like an abandoned property.
Keenan (24:07):
So before we get into our last segment, the future of
A&R just a fair warning.
In our interview of Daouda, hegets pretty technical about his
divisions on the life cycle ofnew music media.
And especially he brings up thispoint on non fungible tokens.
Mike (24:25):
So NFTs or a non fungible tokens are a special kind of
crypto graphic token, whichrepresents something unique.
And thus is not mutuallyinterchangeable with other
tokens.
whereas with like Bitcoin, orother cryptocurrencies, you can
exchange them value for valuenon fungible tokens are not
exchangeable with each other.
So artists can sell their workattached to a non fungible
(24:49):
token, and ensure that whoeverreceives that gets the authentic
thing.
And, only they received thatprofit.
Tash (24:56):
Interesting.
Interesting.
Yeah, that's definitely moretechnical than Sam and I went in
our interview but I do think shealso has some really interesting
insights on the future of theindustry, that I think will pair
really nicely with what Daoudahas to say.
Keenan (25:11):
In the future with social media, because you've
seen so many different platformsand like, and worked with their
different platforms, in regardsto the music industry, over
time.
And it seems to be that there'sebbs and flows and certain ones
die off and certain ones tend tolast a little bit longer.
Do you have any thoughts onwhat's happening next?
Daouda (25:29):
Well, I think that there's two things.
One is this is sort of what Iwill say is no surprise to a lot
of people is like you are seeinga trend towards niche, community
building.
Discord being a good example ofthat.
And so I think that that trendis gonna continue to grow where
people are being like, I'm goingto just build for my audience,
(25:53):
and I'm going to build acommunity that I also can sort
of own.
More than I own them when it wason my Facebook page, you know
cause you could do more onFacebook actually, then you can
do with Instagram.
So I think that we're trendingtowards that where people are
like recognizing that they needto do that.
(26:13):
Like that's what Twitch alsoprovides.
That's what, things like Patreonprovide.
So they're like closed socialmedia in a lot of sense, but
then I think that what's alwaysbeen there will continue to be
there it's just, you got to tapinto it, is like actually having
a direct relationship with thosecustomers.
(26:35):
Which is either through email ortext message.
There's obviously actuallyknowing someone and talking to
them, but email and textmessage, like people built being
able to build around that andlike have that information and
develop a real relationship.
And that's what a fan clubreally, you know, people don't
talk about that anymore.
Like that terminology isn'treally used like that anymore.
(26:57):
Like having a fan club, andbuilding a fan club, and so
maybe we're seeing theresurgence of that in a new way.
It's possible.
I think for people to innovatein that space, in the fan club
development space, which is likea one-to-one, or one to maybe
not millions but thousands.
Tash (27:19):
So in the six years you've been in this industry, what do
you think?
Or what do you imagine thefuture of A&R to look like?
Sam (27:27):
I mean, I think that, and it's already happening, but I
think that, you know, very likedata-centric decision-making.
There are so many tools outthere now that either can help
you see like very easily who'sbubbling under.
You know, there's a tool that Iuse called Chartmetric that even
just from like, you know, I takemaybe 30 minutes every morning
(27:49):
and I just look at some of thebig playlists and some of the
charts.
And they have their own kind ofcalculations in there to say
like, here's the 15 people thathave gone from a hundred
thousand monthly listeners, tolike 5 million.
And growth and trajectory for meis super important in how I look
at things, because you can haveArtist A that has a million
monthly listeners.
(28:10):
You could have Artist B that has5 million.
If Artist B has had 5 millionmonthly listeners for like five
years and hasn't grown, that'sone thing.
If Artist A has gone from 0 to100,000 to 500,000 to a million
in a month, that's superinteresting to me.
And I think being able to get inthat level, and then using the
(28:31):
resources of a major label orpublisher to actually like pour
some gasoline really help ridethat momentum is a scenario that
I've seen play out well in termsof like signing things early and
then ultimately having them besuccessful.
Mike (28:50):
Well, it's been so great to get to hear from all these
amazing industry folks.
Jaiden (28:54):
Yeah.
It's been so much fun.
Tash (28:56):
I think, um, in particular I loved putting the different
eras of A&R into conversation.
So seeing the differences andsimilarities between Daouda's
experience compared to say Sam.
Keenan (29:08):
Yeah.
Seeing where they agreed anddisagreed was very interesting.
Jaiden (29:13):
So before we go, I thought it would be nice to
leave our audience members withsome advice from our guests.
Bekah (29:19):
I mean, I think the only thing I will say is that people
just, you know, if any musiciansend up listening to this, I
think it's just like, just staytrue to yourself.
And I mean, in all facets of theworld, I think people should
just always stay true tothemselves and their art.
And don't try to cater to whatpeople think that they should
sound like.
I think you just need to beauthentic and that will
(29:40):
hopefully resonate I know thatthat is what I look for when I'm
signing a band and I think that,I would hope that that's what
other people do too.
Daouda (29:49):
It's just like, yo really, really focused on
developing your talents andskills if you're not the actual
artist.
Keenan (29:55):
For sure.
Daouda (29:56):
Figure out what your strengths are and put in a lot
of time enhancing them.
Figure out what your weaknessesare and figure out how to build
strengths around thoseweaknesses.
Sam (30:10):
You know, I don't think there's really like a cheat
code.
I think it's even if you startfrom the ground, I think it's
constant momentum and movingforward.
So if you're like an artist andyou're putting out your first
song and you have no, you know,presence on Spotify or social
media.
It's not saying like, how can Igo from 0 to a million it's how
can I go from 0 to 50?
(30:31):
And it's really working thatgrowth slowly.
And maybe you start by doing alive stream, and you only have
25 people in it, and thensomeone shares it and you get 25
of their fans.
I think that the A&Rs and thepeople doing the research will
come because we're payingattention to the music that's
being put out and we're payingattention to what the audience
(30:53):
and fans are reacting to.
There's so many tools out therein terms of like, you know,
being able to be knowledgeableon your analytics and where your
fans are, and how they'relistening.
And I would recommend anyone touse that data and make informed
decisions.
And again, it's hard now, but Ithink if you're a artist that
(31:13):
wants to do live shows, youknow, get yourself into, even if
it's just like a 15 person clubor there's an industry night
cause you never know who's goingto be in the audience.
Collaborating is a huge way ofexpanding your network,
especially as like an artist.
And you can go onto likeInstagram or YouTube or Spotify
and find producers in New York,or Alabama, or wherever, and
(31:38):
reach out to them and try to puta session together.
We all see those people onInstagram who are spamming A&R's
and saying like, please listento my music
Tash (31:45):
(chuckles)
Sam (31:46):
and DM-ing them.
I don't necessarily think that'sthe way to do it, but I think
we've all, even on my sidethings, I've called, emailed,
and reached out to people allthe time.
So I think don't be afraid tolike hustle and put your stuff
out there, but do it in a way,you know, with a little bit of
grace.
Absolutely.
I think that's great advice.
Data-driven music, honest musicand respect the hustle.
(32:09):
Put yourself out there.
Exactly.
Tash (32:12):
This has been the A&R episode of Drop the Mic(Season
Two) with music by MikeMulshine.
Thank you so much for listening!
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into
conversations with some of themusic industry's most
established professionals.
Like all of our episodes, whatyou will hear today has been
created and curated by Stanfordstudents who are breaking their
way into the music scene.
I'm Jay LeBouef and I leadStanford University's music
industry initiatives.
Whether you're aspiring tolaunch your career in the music
industry are already a musicindustry pro, or just curious to
(00:29):
learn more.
We've got you covered.
Keenan (00:40):
Welcome to the A&R, artists and repertoire podcast.
A&R is a division of a recordlabel or music publishing
company, and it is responsiblefor signing artists, and
overseeing the artists, andtheir development.
We'll be looking at thebeginning of journeys in the
music industry, the stories,working in the industry today,
(01:04):
to the innovation that is takingplace and changing the music
industry forever.
And by listening to thispodcast, listeners will learn
the skills that'll help them besuccessful in the changing space
of A&R today.
Jaiden (01:20):
So who do we have on today?
Tash (01:22):
I can kick us off.
So I interviewed my friend, SamKolton, who is a 31 year old in
the music industry, who workedat red bull for many years,
doing A&R.
She started in music throughmore of a data center company,
so she has this great databackground that I think a lot of
Stanford students will be ableto relate to.
(01:44):
But then she also has thecreative side of things as well.
So we definitely get that newage A&R perspective from Sam.
Mike, do you want to tell us alittle bit about your guest?
Mike (01:57):
For sure.
We are super lucky to have BekahZietz Flynn here with us today.
Bekah is an experienced A&R Repat Sub Pop Records and has
worked with Sub Pop for morethan 10 years.
Sub Pop has a long history ofsigning groundbreaking artists,
from Nirvana and Soundgarden inthe 80s to Iron Wine and Beach
House today.
Bekah's career in the musicindustry began with college
(02:17):
radio at the University ofVermont, a stint trying to make
it in New York City and finallylanding an internship with Sub
Pop after moving to Seattle.
Keenan.
Can you tell us a little bitabout our other guest, Daouda?
Keenan (02:28):
Daouda Leonard is the founder and CEO of CREATESAFE, a
music technology company workingwith Grimes, BloodPop, HANA, and
other artists.
He has worked as a manager,publisher, producer, A&R and
creative director, and hiscreative work has led to over 15
(02:49):
billion global media impressionsand sales for artists like Lady
Gaga.
Drake, Madonna, Kanye West, Ms.
Lauryn Hill, The Weeknd, andJustin Bieber.
He went to NortheasternUniversity's School of Business
and graduated with a degree inManagement Information Systems,
(03:10):
and worked on Wall Street as anInformation Technology Analyst
at Tudor Investment.
He balanced full-time work withschool while simultaneously
being an innovator in the realmsof music file sharing, and the
Internet's transformation of themusic industry that preceded the
rise of music streaming.
(03:32):
An individual helping empowerartists and inspire the future
of the music industry, pleasewelcome Daouda Leonard.
Daejon (03:39):
Let's get into it.
Let's hear about how they gotinto the industry.
Keenan (03:43):
I was wondering if you could talk about how you got
into the music industry andmusic business in the first
place.
Daouda (03:49):
The quickest way to answer that is to say that I
love music a lot, I loved havingaccess to it, I think like
that's what the internetprovided me when I was in
college.
My freshman year, it was 1997.
And, I tell this storysometimes, which is like, you
know, I grew up in New York andright before I left to go to
college, one of the stores thatI would normally buy CDs from
(04:09):
had this Busta Rhymes album,maybe two weeks before it was
supposed to come out.
So I bought it and I was able togo to school, with this CD, and
it was sort of like my, it'slike a way in which I like was
able to connect with otherpeople.
It was like, Oh, I had this, Igot this new music.
You want to come listen to it inmy dorm room.
(04:30):
and like, you know, thinkingback at that time, it wasn't
because I wanted to be in themusic business, like that's not
what I was thinking.
I wasn't even a music major, youknow.
I was a Physical Therapy majorto begin with and then moved
into Computer Science andManagement Information Systems.
At no point in time did I thinkI wanted to be in the music
industry, but I was just reallypassionate about music.
when I came back to school mysophomore year, I had a new
(04:52):
computer.
Northeastern had a T1 line, orat least I discovered what that
was and now I had like highspeed internet and a brand new
computer.
And I was like online and wasgetting access to all this like
bootleg music essentially.
because you know, Northeasternis where Napster was created and
there were other things outthere that, you know, more
(05:13):
sophisticated than Napster whereyou could get access to music.
And I just was like superpassionate about that and being
able to like, show people, mycuratorial kind of like tastes
and that led to, my otherpassions were in like building
websites at the time, like in99, that's when I started to
become like a web developer.
and I was like, well, I canmerge my interest in music and
(05:36):
development, and build artists'websites.
And that was like the firstthing and still at that time, it
wasn't like particularly focusedon Oh, I want to do this because
I worked in the music industrywas just like, I want to find
people who need this type ofskillset and apply it.
Mike (05:57):
So Bekah, tell us how you got into A&R.
Bekah (06:00):
For sure.
So my journey, I guess, into theA&R world, I think kind of just
ties back into my journey intomusic.
I've always been a music fan,but for me, it wasn't until I
got into college radio thatreally kind of navigated and
shifted what I thought about inregards to a career in general,
I kind of always knew that Iwanted to enter the world of
(06:21):
entertainment.
I kinda thought I was going togo into the theater acting
world, as opposed to the musicworld.
And when I got into college thatreally shifted.
I started becoming reallyinvolved in my college radio
station, I quickly became themusic director of that station,
and through my relationshipswith different radio promoters
that I talked to from my job atWRUV that really kind of made me
(06:45):
realize Whoa, I could get paidto talk about music all day",
which is something that I love.
Mike (06:51):
Awesome.
How did you get to know Sub Pop?
Bekah (06:54):
I was always obsessed with Sub Pop.
Obviously, Nirvana was a bigband and musical influence for
me.
But more so even just likeMudhoney, and L7 those are just
really important groups for methat I, that I really always
respected.
And, in the mid 2000's, aroundthat time with the Postal
(07:14):
Service, The Shins, Sub Pop waskind of getting a new, like.
Sonic shift of artists and kindof blowing up on a different
level.
And so, you know, The Shins,(The) Postal Service, Iron Wine,
Band of Horses, those artistswere really becoming influences
in bands that I listened to andwanted to support.
And so I was like, all right,I'm going to go to Seattle and
intern at Sub Pop.
And so I was very grateful thatI was able to get an internship
(07:37):
there and that kind of shiftedinto my job, getting hired
part-time in the radiodepartment.
Tash (07:45):
So I met Sam while I was interning under Amanda Schupf,
who was a management consultant,creative consultant, and just
all around great person to knowin the industry.
And she knows Sam from theirdays at Red Bull Songs together.
Sam's love of music came fromattending Bruce Springsteen
concerts with her parents whenshe was a kid.
(08:06):
However, it wasn't until shemoved to Los Angeles from
Chicago, that she was able tostart to making a career out of
it.
Starting in ManagementConsulting, she began her music
career at Creative Arts Agency,working closely with artists,
agents, and industry executivesto help artists understand and
maximize their digital footprintin the marketplace.
(08:28):
Following CAA, she joined RedBull Songs, Red Bull's music
publishing team, where shesigned new talent and worked
with the roster of artists,songwriters, and producers,
providing creative services suchas setting up co-writes and
collaborations.
And though Sam now works as asenior manager at SongTradr,
(08:49):
she's here today to talk to usabout her experience in the A&R
world.
What was your official titlewhile you were at Red Bull?
Sam (08:57):
So, it's funny because it was a working title, but I think
you could just call me likePublishing Creative.
Publishing Creative...essentially is like A&R, you
know, we were responsible withscouting, signing talent, and
then once they were on theroster, actually working with
them in a creative capacity.
So anything from pitchingrecords, setting up co-writes.
(09:21):
Oftentimes, you know, especiallyif an artist was independent and
maybe didn't have a label tohelp with some of the label
services we could help with, youknow, feature ideas and really
anything creatively to kind ofbenefit the final music product.
Tash (09:37):
Okay, and could you, for the listeners, make that
distinction of publisher versuslabel?
What's that, what's thedifference between those two?
Sam (09:44):
Yeah.
So, you know, when I think of asong, I think of it kind of as,
you know, one whole entity, butthen if you were to split it
into, you have the master sideand the copyright or the
publishing.
So the master side, which isconnected with the label is
really the, that soundrecording.
So anytime you hear a song onSpotify or on the radio, that
(10:07):
kind of like physical, tangiblerecording is what, you know, we
would call the master.
And really, when I think about alabel, not only are they
responsible for creating thatproduct, but once it is out in
the commercial market, marketingit so that it can get in front
of as many people as possible.
And then publishing, you know,so we're really dealing
(10:28):
primarily with songwriters,producers, some of which also
have outward facing artistprojects, but we're responsible
for getting our client's musicwith either bigger label artists
or getting it out in thecommercial market.
Mike (10:47):
So I'm curious, like in the traditional sense of A&R,
you always think of the guy inthe back of the club, just
waiting for that next big hit,going to shows every night,
scouring records, listening tomix tapes.
So how does your professionnowadays hold up to that
stereotype or that image of anA&R rep?
How do you guys find artists?
On top of that, how has COVIDchanged your experience finding
(11:09):
artists?
Bekah (11:11):
Yeah, I mean, I think pre-pandemic it was the same
kind of thing that you weresaying.
It's like, I would listen to aband.
The process is still the same,it just has just changed because
obviously I'm not going toshows, no one is.
But for me, you know, I look atPitchfork and Stereogum and
like, all of the music outletsevery day.
So I know the bands that arelike the new artists that are
(11:32):
kind of blowing up, right?
That, that are getting theStereogum like.
New Artist feature or, you know,Pitchfork Rising and stuff like
that.
And those are, 99% of the timethose bands are already on my
radar.
I already know who they are.
I think that honestly, one ofthe biggest websites that have
really kind of come in anddominated especially during the
(11:54):
pandemic is Bandcamp.
The way that they've navigatedthrough editorial and combined
it with retail is I think geniusand I use their recaps all the
time because I think thatthey're a little bit more
obscure than like, just, youknow--Pitchfork and Stereogum,
love you guys, but like,-- Ithink that they really do really
deep dives into punk andelectronic and indie and
(12:17):
different genres of music thatI, 99% of the time, I'm like, I
had never heard of this artist.
Mike (12:27):
In talking to Bekah, I was surprised to hear how heavily
she used online music, blogs,like Stereogum Pitchfork and,
especially, the Indiedistribution site BandCamp to
find artists.
When Keenan and I interviewedDaouda Leonard, we made sure to
get his take on these sites,given his background in
developing personal websites forartists like Clinton Sparks.
Here he outlines how A&Rhappened in the hip hop world,
(12:49):
as artists began promoting theirmusic online in the late
nineties and early twothousands.
Daouda (12:53):
I think at the time, like websites were still like in
a very, it was, it was sort of avery expensive kind of concept,
and like the artists that didhave them were like probably
signed to a major record label.
And, there was a lot of fundingbehind that.
And I was attempting to do thatfor people who didn't even know
that they needed a website atthe time.
And so for me, my journey intothe music industry from that
(13:14):
perspective started with likemixtapes, that's where I was
really focused at.
And I think that's where atleast in hip hop, that's where a
lot of A&R was focused on.
Like that's how A&Rs woulddiscover new music, you would
hear about a new artist from amixtape and that's probably
like, that's more like, 2002,2003 ish, maybe four, but then
(13:40):
like right around'03,'04 iswhen, like the mixtape game went
online.
You know, Napster and all ofthat, or like, Oyster and
Limewire still existed, andpeople would like rip the
mixtapes and they would get onthose services.
But generally speaking, peoplewere like, going to the mixtape
websites, buying these mixtapes,you know, or getting sent the
(14:02):
mix tapes and hearing about adifferent artist in the Bay Area
or Atlanta or wherever.
And then, you know, being ableto go after signing that.
So it was like DJs weredefinitely at the forefront of
breaking new artists andbreaking new music, which is how
it got to the record labels tobe signed in the first place
(14:22):
like, that's just, that's myexperience of it.
I think DJ's, and slashproducers have always been at
the forefront of the A&Rprocess, in either helping an
artist to like, craft theirsound or helping an artist to
get their sound, their brand toa wider audience.
Like traditionally, A&R withinrecord labels is to connect
what's happening in the streetsto the actual record label,
(14:46):
where they can go and expandthat artist brand to a larger
audience.
Tash (14:52):
So Sam, I'm curious, how do you go from the maybe 10, 20,
even 50 prospects that you findto the handful of artists,
producers, songwriters that youactually end up signing.
Sam (15:08):
So of course, for me, it's always about the music.
If I, if someone has crazynumbers and crazy growth and I
listened to a song and I'm like,I don't get it, this isn't
something I feel I can workwith, like that, you know,
that's that for me, But if Ihave, you know, two artists I'm
looking at, and both of them,I'm like super excited and
(15:28):
inspired by the music, and thenI go check out their data, I
might see that artists A hasbeen like growing crazy amounts
on Instagram and has a veryengaged audience and does some
awesome content and really kindof has their brand more
solidified, I might lean towardstrying to be in business with
(15:49):
that artist over someone who haszero social presence, doesn't do
a ton of engaging with theiraudience only because I know how
important putting a focus onkind of that brand, especially
for like an, an artist is, and Ithink ultimately will help them
be more successful.
Jaiden (16:10):
It's interesting to see how different A&R reps in
different parts of the industryfind their artists.
Keenan (16:15):
Yeah, it almost feels like Bekah using her website
platform and Sam too.
Going through blogs.
They're working off the otherplatforms that Daouda and his
generation spent a lot of timebuilding.
Mike (16:26):
Totally.
Whether it's flipping throughrecords or music blog articles,
A&R reps get the job done.
But what happens once the artistis signed?
Me and Bekah talked a bit aboutthe creative relationship
between the A&R rep and theartist.
There's that stereotypical ideathat like, Oh, you get signed
and all of a sudden you're likein this room with lava lamps and
crazy mastering engineers andstuff.
Bekah (16:47):
I mean, I've gone into the studio to hear sounds and
stuff over the years withartists, but that's not, I don't
go in and going, well, you know,like,"Oh, it feels like you need
to like move this level up ordown.
Or,"What if you try to do this,this and this?" I mean, and also
I have been like, you know, Ithink that the closest I get to
maybe a traditional A&R thing islike, if someone turns in and
(17:09):
asks me to listen to thesequencing, there've been times
where I'm like, yeah, dude,like, maybe don't start this
with like, a 10 minuteinstrumental, like don't record
a 10 minute instrumental.
Mike (17:22):
Yeah.
Sam (17:23):
I think it's like super important to also remember how
subjective music is.
So I personally, whenever I'mgiving feedback or any type of
like subjective opinions, Ialways make sure to preface,
like, this is my opinion.
I have my listening tastes.
I think there are things to lookout for that are more objective.
You know, if someone writes asong and it's a concept about
(17:45):
falling in love on the dancefloor, you know.
It's not the most, not that asong like with that idea, can't
come and be a huge record, buttypically if something has been
done or there's a ton of othermusic talking about the same
thing, like that's a piece offeedback I could give.
Or if I love a song, but I'mlike, the chorus is a little
(18:05):
wordy.
A lot of what I do is kind ofabout like establishing
relationships, and a goodrapport.
So if I have worked with awriter for years, maybe we've
kind of already had aconversation about how they want
feedback and news.
And if I know, you know,sometimes someone's writing
about something that's superpersonal and cathartic for them.
(18:27):
And maybe the goal was not tomake a record that's going to go
and become like a number onedance record, but it's actually
something that has a differenttype of like, meaning for them.
I like to be cautious of all ofthose different scenarios.
Mike (18:43):
Daouda gave some great thoughts on how A&Rs can make
themselves useful to artistsduring the creative process as
well.
Do you feel pretty involved inthe artistic and aesthetic
development process that anartist goes through?
Daouda (18:56):
That's how I've always been able to create value for
the people that I've workedwith, which is like having an
opinion and cultivating thatopinion so much so that it's
like a part of my, I guess, liketalent or skillset.
Being able to cultivaterelationships with other people
so that you can bringopportunities to your client.
(19:17):
Being able to have a informedopinion about the music so that
your artists can like take thatinto consideration, and make
their decisions based on likethe advice that's being given.
And also being able to provide,critical feedback around the
(19:38):
actual, process of creation.
So, knowing what sounds good ina sense like, you know, which is
subjective, but like being ableto be like, okay, I have an
understanding, like (19:49):
that could hit harder, the vocal could be
clearer.
So being able to speakconfidently about the actual
idea that's being created.
Tash (20:01):
I mean, I think this segment was super interesting.
I think it's really interestingto see how unique each A&R
experience is in terms of likehow involved they are in the
creative process.
Jaiden (20:13):
And also how, individual it is, the relationship with the
client.
Keenan (20:18):
Exactly.
It felt like Daouda reallyprided himself in his ability to
have a creative eye.
Tash (20:24):
Yeah, I think that makes sense, like, given his focus on
really creative and uniqueartists like Grimes that he
would want to have a kind of acreative input on, on his
artists and in terms of his A&Rprocess.
Keenan (20:38):
Yeah.
Whereas Bekah was more hands offin that sense, and maybe more
focused on the marketing.
Jaiden (20:45):
I think in that regard, the other big component of A&R,
besides the creative feedback,is building a brand and taking
advantage of platforms to getyour artists, music, face, name
out there.
Nowadays, that means socialmedia.
Mike (21:00):
I'm curious how all of this has changed due to the rise
of streaming and social media.
How was your job 10 years agoversus now?
What was, like, a day in thelife 10 years ago versus now?
Bekah (21:10):
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, honestly, it's
hard because I think that insome ways it's hard to isolate
the A&R process and separate itfrom necessarily the marketing
component.
The reality is, for me, I don'tlook at social numbers or how
many streams they have on Bay.
Like, I mean, I should say this.
I do look at that stuff, right,like, I'm like, if there's a
newer artist and no one has everheard of that, I'm like, man,
(21:34):
this record is insane.
You know, I look at that stuffto go, whoa, this is cool that
they're already up on Spotifyor, have some following.
But I don't think to us, we'renot necessarily signing up
artists because they have 75,000Instagram followers or
something.
The co president of Sub Pop,Tony, just signed this artist
named Hannah Jadagu and I thinkshe's a really perfect example
(21:56):
of like, she has not very muchstreaming like on Spotify.
She has maybe I think now weannounced a new track and I
think she maybe has a thousandor so Instagram followers.
I think that we're reallyhelping build her identity as an
artist from the kind of theground up.
And, obviously the socialnumbers and Spotify, those are
(22:17):
extremely important to ourmarketing of artists.
But, on the a and A&R front, Idon't necessarily look at that
when I'm trying to sign a band.
Mike (22:26):
Much of Daouda's work early on building websites for
artists seem to preempt a lot ofthe social media use that we see
with artists these days.
So we had to ask him how he feltabout social media.
Daouda (22:38):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm one of those peoplethat had to succumb to the idea
that not everybody wanted theirown website.
Like I was actually, like, umnot a fan of MySpace.
Like I understood it, but I wasjust like, it doesn't make sense
to give your brand to their realestate, when you can build your
own real estate.
And then Myspace became sopopular and I had to be like,
(23:01):
damn, like no one cares aboutgoing to these artists'
websites.
So I got to like, maybe like atleast get with the program and
begin using Myspace and pushingartists to use Myspace.
When Twitter first started, Iwas like, onboarding people to
Twitter.
When Instagram first started, Iwas onboarding people to
Instagram.
Spotify I had like early codesto get people on Spotify before
(23:26):
they launched in the U S.
So yeah, like I went from beinglike, no, you gotta do
everything and you have to buildyour presence yourself to
recognize like they, with theseplatforms that we're giving
people an opportunity to createa wider audience.
Mike (23:41):
Daouda admits that artists have to use social media to
their advantage, but he takes itone step further to talk about
the future of social media.
Daouda (23:48):
But what I still recognize today and, you know,
it's like, Instagram is dyinglowkey What happens as it dies,
because Facebook is definitelyin my opinion, dead.
And so now you've built up allthis real estate, and you're
literally just leaving it.
It's like an abandoned property.
Keenan (24:07):
So before we get into our last segment, the future of
A&R just a fair warning.
In our interview of Daouda, hegets pretty technical about his
divisions on the life cycle ofnew music media.
And especially he brings up thispoint on non fungible tokens.
Mike (24:25):
So NFTs or a non fungible tokens are a special kind of
crypto graphic token, whichrepresents something unique.
And thus is not mutuallyinterchangeable with other
tokens.
whereas with like Bitcoin, orother cryptocurrencies, you can
exchange them value for valuenon fungible tokens are not
exchangeable with each other.
So artists can sell their workattached to a non fungible
(24:49):
token, and ensure that whoeverreceives that gets the authentic
thing.
And, only they received thatprofit.
Tash (24:56):
Interesting.
Interesting.
Yeah, that's definitely moretechnical than Sam and I went in
our interview but I do think shealso has some really interesting
insights on the future of theindustry, that I think will pair
really nicely with what Daoudahas to say.
Keenan (25:11):
In the future with social media, because you've
seen so many different platformsand like, and worked with their
different platforms, in regardsto the music industry, over
time.
And it seems to be that there'sebbs and flows and certain ones
die off and certain ones tend tolast a little bit longer.
Do you have any thoughts onwhat's happening next?
Daouda (25:29):
Well, I think that there's two things.
One is this is sort of what Iwill say is no surprise to a lot
of people is like you are seeinga trend towards niche, community
building.
Discord being a good example ofthat.
And so I think that that trendis gonna continue to grow where
people are being like, I'm goingto just build for my audience,
(25:53):
and I'm going to build acommunity that I also can sort
of own.
More than I own them when it wason my Facebook page, you know
cause you could do more onFacebook actually, then you can
do with Instagram.
So I think that we're trendingtowards that where people are
like recognizing that they needto do that.
(26:13):
Like that's what Twitch alsoprovides.
That's what, things like Patreonprovide.
So they're like closed socialmedia in a lot of sense, but
then I think that what's alwaysbeen there will continue to be
there it's just, you got to tapinto it, is like actually having
a direct relationship with thosecustomers.
(26:35):
Which is either through email ortext message.
There's obviously actuallyknowing someone and talking to
them, but email and textmessage, like people built being
able to build around that andlike have that information and
develop a real relationship.
And that's what a fan clubreally, you know, people don't
talk about that anymore.
Like that terminology isn'treally used like that anymore.
(26:57):
Like having a fan club, andbuilding a fan club, and so
maybe we're seeing theresurgence of that in a new way.
It's possible.
I think for people to innovatein that space, in the fan club
development space, which is likea one-to-one, or one to maybe
not millions but thousands.
Tash (27:19):
So in the six years you've been in this industry, what do
you think?
Or what do you imagine thefuture of A&R to look like?
Sam (27:27):
I mean, I think that, and it's already happening, but I
think that, you know, very likedata-centric decision-making.
There are so many tools outthere now that either can help
you see like very easily who'sbubbling under.
You know, there's a tool that Iuse called Chartmetric that even
just from like, you know, I takemaybe 30 minutes every morning
(27:49):
and I just look at some of thebig playlists and some of the
charts.
And they have their own kind ofcalculations in there to say
like, here's the 15 people thathave gone from a hundred
thousand monthly listeners, tolike 5 million.
And growth and trajectory for meis super important in how I look
at things, because you can haveArtist A that has a million
monthly listeners.
(28:10):
You could have Artist B that has5 million.
If Artist B has had 5 millionmonthly listeners for like five
years and hasn't grown, that'sone thing.
If Artist A has gone from 0 to100,000 to 500,000 to a million
in a month, that's superinteresting to me.
And I think being able to get inthat level, and then using the
(28:31):
resources of a major label orpublisher to actually like pour
some gasoline really help ridethat momentum is a scenario that
I've seen play out well in termsof like signing things early and
then ultimately having them besuccessful.
Mike (28:50):
Well, it's been so great to get to hear from all these
amazing industry folks.
Jaiden (28:54):
Yeah.
It's been so much fun.
Tash (28:56):
I think, um, in particular I loved putting the different
eras of A&R into conversation.
So seeing the differences andsimilarities between Daouda's
experience compared to say Sam.
Keenan (29:08):
Yeah.
Seeing where they agreed anddisagreed was very interesting.
Jaiden (29:13):
So before we go, I thought it would be nice to
leave our audience members withsome advice from our guests.
Bekah (29:19):
I mean, I think the only thing I will say is that people
just, you know, if any musiciansend up listening to this, I
think it's just like, just staytrue to yourself.
And I mean, in all facets of theworld, I think people should
just always stay true tothemselves and their art.
And don't try to cater to whatpeople think that they should
sound like.
I think you just need to beauthentic and that will
(29:40):
hopefully resonate I know thatthat is what I look for when I'm
signing a band and I think that,I would hope that that's what
other people do too.
Daouda (29:49):
It's just like, yo really, really focused on
developing your talents andskills if you're not the actual
artist.
Keenan (29:55):
For sure.
Daouda (29:56):
Figure out what your strengths are and put in a lot
of time enhancing them.
Figure out what your weaknessesare and figure out how to build
strengths around thoseweaknesses.
Sam (30:10):
You know, I don't think there's really like a cheat
code.
I think it's even if you startfrom the ground, I think it's
constant momentum and movingforward.
So if you're like an artist andyou're putting out your first
song and you have no, you know,presence on Spotify or social
media.
It's not saying like, how can Igo from 0 to a million it's how
can I go from 0 to 50?
(30:31):
And it's really working thatgrowth slowly.
And maybe you start by doing alive stream, and you only have
25 people in it, and thensomeone shares it and you get 25
of their fans.
I think that the A&Rs and thepeople doing the research will
come because we're payingattention to the music that's
being put out and we're payingattention to what the audience
(30:53):
and fans are reacting to.
There's so many tools out therein terms of like, you know,
being able to be knowledgeableon your analytics and where your
fans are, and how they'relistening.
And I would recommend anyone touse that data and make informed
decisions.
And again, it's hard now, but Ithink if you're a artist that
(31:13):
wants to do live shows, youknow, get yourself into, even if
it's just like a 15 person clubor there's an industry night
cause you never know who's goingto be in the audience.
Collaborating is a huge way ofexpanding your network,
especially as like an artist.
And you can go onto likeInstagram or YouTube or Spotify
and find producers in New York,or Alabama, or wherever, and
(31:38):
reach out to them and try to puta session together.
We all see those people onInstagram who are spamming A&R's
and saying like, please listento my music
Tash (31:45):
(chuckles)
Sam (31:46):
and DM-ing them.
I don't necessarily think that'sthe way to do it, but I think
we've all, even on my sidethings, I've called, emailed,
and reached out to people allthe time.
So I think don't be afraid tolike hustle and put your stuff
out there, but do it in a way,you know, with a little bit of
grace.
Absolutely.
I think that's great advice.
Data-driven music, honest musicand respect the hustle.
(32:09):
Put yourself out there.
Exactly.
Tash (32:12):
This has been the A&R episode of Drop the Mic(Season
Two) with music by MikeMulshine.
Thank you so much for listening!
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