May 4, 2021 • 40 mins
What puts a tour into motion? In this podcast episode, we sat down with live music and touring experts Kaleb Herbel-Eisenmann (Artist Manager at Abstract MGMT), Darius Zelkha (Artist Manager/Marketing Partnerships at Brilliant Corners Artist Management), and Danielle Zucchini (National Marketing Manager for Live Nation) to discuss the mechanics of mid-cap, domestic tours in North America. Tune in to see how a tour is created, from initial planning and marketing, to being on the road, and everything in between.
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Episode Transcript
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Jay (00:06):
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into
conversations with some of themusic industry's most
established professionals.
Like all of our episodes, whatyou will hear today has been
created and curated by Stanfordstudents who are breaking their
way into the music scene.
I'm Jay LeBouef and I leadStanford University's music
industry initiatives.
Whether you're aspiring tolaunch your career in the music
industry are already a musicindustry pro, or just curious to
(00:29):
learn more.
We've got you covered.
Sarah Ohta (00:32):
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to the StanfordMusic Industry Podcast where we
have conversations with some oftoday's leading industry leaders
in order to offer a behind thescenes perspective on the music
industry.
I'm Sarah.
Peyton Chen (00:43):
I'm Peyton.
Micah Drigo (00:44):
And I'm Micah,
Sarah Ohta (00:45):
And today we'll be focusing our episode on live
music specifically lookingwithin the context of domestic
mid-cap touring in North Americawe were very lucky to be able to
talk with a few guests hailingfrom different parts of the live
music industry.
So we'll be able to get a clearpicture as to how tours are
organized and operated from boththe creative and financial side.
Peyton Chen (01:04):
First up, we have Darius Zelkha who was previously
the owner of tough love artistmanagement, and is now an artist
manager and marketingpartnerships director at
Brilliant Corners ArtistManagement.
Brilliant Corners has workedwith individuals like The
Submarines, Death Cab for Cutie,and She Him.
We wanted to talk to Dariusbecause he is able to explain
booking and the various touringlogistics from the artist
management perspective and he'sgoing to help us begin to
(01:26):
understand the decision makingthat drives touring before the
show even starts.
Darius Zelkha (01:30):
I'll talk about this as if the world is a little
more back to normal so if we'retalking about tours that are
mid-sized venues, I assume, wemean somewhere between a
thousand and three thousandcapacity places.
Maybe a little bit larger thanthat.
The first thing about that isthat artists that are playing
that size venue, they have atrack record.
(01:50):
They have a history, they haveticket sales.
That's totally different than aband that's maybe going on their
first tour or has never touredthe U S before, but has success
elsewhere.
If you're talking about thosesides of venues generally, the
band has history and thestarting point for booking a
tour is generally looking atwhat the band's history is with
the agent and, I would talk tothe agent about it and see what
(02:13):
kinds of venues might makesense, both artistically and
financially for the band.
So let's say it's a band thathas typically played, The
Fillmore in San Francisco, whichI think is 1100 tickets and
let's say the last couple oftimes they've done it, they've
sold that room out.
The starting point for us wouldbasically be, do we feel like
there's enough momentum to stepup to whatever the next room
(02:35):
would be?
In the market, do we feel likethat's a good fit for the band's
audience?
For example, the next room mightbe a place where there's seats
in it as opposed to standingroom.
Is that something that theband's audience would want and
artistically, does it make sensefor the band to do that?
Just to show growth showevolution of what they're doing,
or is it a situation where everytime they've come to San
(02:58):
Francisco, the show has donewell at the Fillmore, but it's
done about the same businesseach time.
And so the estimate should be,we're going to about, we're
going to do about 1100 tickets.
Does it make sense to do a placethat we know the fans want to go
to and they seem comfortable, ordoes it make sense to do
something different?
That feels like a step for theband.
at that point, the booking agentwould go and essentially solicit
(03:21):
offers.
From the different venues intown.
So generally what happens thebooking agent will come back to
us with a what's called arouting, which is essentially
what he thinks the tour shouldlook like.
or she, we work with a lot offemale agents as well.
They will then look at it.
We'll take a look at that andbeing familiar with a lot of the
venues, we'll have aconversation with the agent
(03:42):
about why he, or she feels likethis is the right thing to do.
It might be something where theartist comes to us and says,
this is a much quieter record.
So I only want to do seatedplaces this time around, or the
artists might come to us andsay, I've played, larger venues
for the last two tours.
I want this tour to be twonights stands in smaller venues
(04:03):
that add up to the same numberof tickets.
so a lot of our job is tocoordinate the vision with what
the economics of it would looklike, and some of that might be
as simple as wow, this band hasa lot of momentum.
We're pretty sure we're going totour twice on this record.
What's an arc of touring for theyear that allows that to happen.
(04:26):
For example, does it make senseto start at a venue that's
smaller than the one that youplayed before?
Have it sell out quickly andthen immediately put on sale?
Another show that's larger.
To give the impression ofmomentum in the market.
I'd say the tricky thing abouttouring is a lot of times are
making those decisions six oreight months before the record
even comes out.
And so it's really an educatedguess about what's going to
(04:48):
happen with the band more thanit is a reflexive, response to
radio airplay or tickets goingon sale in the market.
So you're essentially makingyour best guess and you're
gauging the enthusiasm of yourpartners.
So if you're getting a bunch ofoffers for shows, say in San
Francisco, that are aggressive,there's a sense that the
(05:09):
promoters or the people on theground that are putting their
money.
Into the show feel like it'sgoing to be a successful show.
They feel like there's some heatfrom the band.
It's very much like getting asense of what the buy-in is from
everyone else involved in it.
And our job is to basicallyquarterback that to then,
determine based on theseoptions, what the best path for
(05:30):
the artist will be.
Peyton Chen (05:31):
I can see how the decision-making process can get
complicated pretty quickly.
On a similar note have you evermet an artist that disagreed
with you on your recommendationsfor festival and touring
decisions and could you explainhow you dealt with that?
Darius Zelkha (05:42):
Yeah.
That happens all the time.
it's not so much necessarilythat we disagree on it, but that
we need to explain to them likewhat the logic is with it.
And honestly it's a difficultconversation because no, even
though a lot of bands, careersgo like this It's a challenging
thing to say to someone like,look, I know you've worked hard
to get to the place where you'regoing to play the Fillmore.
(06:04):
It didn't go that well, lasttime we should play a room.
That's, two thirds that sizethat you don't like as much.
In my experience, There are someartists that are very clear-eyed
about that and understand that'sjust a part of a longer career.
And as long as there's astrategy behind why we're doing
it this time.
Cool.
That's a harder conversation.
I think if there's an artistthat's risen really quickly and
(06:27):
is dipping.
A bit.
And so in my experience withthat, a lot of times you might
avoid that conversation by doinglike a very creative venue in
one of those markets, somethingthat feels like, Whoa, like not
that many people do a showthere.
The issue with those issometimes you don't make as much
money because you need to bringin production and it's not set
up to do that.
(06:48):
But sometimes you would look atthat and be like, Oh, Hey, for
this market where we struggledlast time, this feels like a
cool creative idea to do.
But then there are some timeswhen you just say Hey, that
shouldn't go very well.
So we're going to do this roominstead, or we're going to work
with the new promoter there.
I think we're lucky in the sensethat a lot of our artists have
toured so much that theyunderstand that's just a part of
it a lot of the time.
(07:08):
There are also always shows on atour that are usually one or two
that you hear about for yearsafterwards, because they totally
sucked.
And that's just part of thedeal.
Micah Drigo (07:17):
Yeah, I'm sure it's not easy to make those difficult
decisions for your artist'ssuccess.
what are some other ways thatyou've been able to make
yourself an effective artistmanager?
Darius Zelkha (07:25):
Sure.
I think I'll try to tailor theanswers to touring specifically,
because it sounds like that'swhat you guys are focused on
here.
Obviously the touring aspect isprobably for a lot of our bands
who are, tend to be moreindependent, larger,
independent, hardest, that tendsto be the thing that has been
the driver of most of theircareers.
(07:46):
I'd say that's the thing that alot of the bands start by doing
is trying to get out on the roadand play shows.
I think as the landscape ofmusic has changed and recorded
music has become less of adriver.
I'd say the touring aspect of ittends to be one of the major
components of the marketingplan.
For that.
So I would say when we'rethinking about a new release or
(08:08):
we're thinking about signing anew artist, or we're thinking
about what an existing artist isgoing to do for an upcoming
album cycle, the touringcomponent of it, both the
amount, the strategy, how it'spresented is one of the major
aspects of the marketingcampaign and something that we
would work very closely with theband's booking agent who
(08:29):
actually routes the tourcontracts, the shows solicits
offers from either festivals orclubs for that we would work.
We would almost, we would beprobably started working on that
with the booking agent beforewe've even started working with
the record label on the releasestate.
So it tends to be a very primaryelement of an album cycle.
(08:50):
And it's also tends to be for usas managers.
And I think for the band aswell, it, it has historically
been a very strong economicdriver.
I would say more than, mostbands touring as a majority of
the income they would earn.
And I would say it's it's also aprimary driver of us to gauge
the success of a given projectlike ticket sales and growth or
(09:13):
maintenance of touring tends tobe something we look to see if
it was successful or if we feltthere were things we could
improve on next time.
Micah Drigo (09:22):
Our second guest is Danielle Zucchini.
Danielle previously worked atLive Nation as a global
marketing manager, where sheoversaw multiple marketing and
promotional plans for artistsand strategize creative
campaigns for North Americantours.
We were so excited to askDanielle about her time at Live
Nation, especially since she'svery familiar with how tours
operate from the viewpoint ofprofit and finances.
Sarah Ohta (09:42):
So an area that we really lack visibility on is how
people handle tour budgets.
How people coordinate with thevenues and the different
responsibilities you might betaking on as a marketing
manager.
So we'd really love to hear moreabout your perspective on that.
Danielle Zucchini (09:55):
It depends per artist, you know some of the
bigger artists don't have aday-to-day manager help with
that.
Like maybe an agent will help ora marketer at one of the
agencies.
So it looks different for eachtour and for each artists
depending on how they exactlywant it to run.
most of it, I will say starts atthe talent buyer and the booking
(10:17):
levels.
So they depending on the show,decide all the budgeting but,
depending on the negotiationsthat happen between the agent
and the talent buyer to figureout what the best Tools are, and
what works best for the artists,what will make more money for
both the venue, the promoter andthe artist.
So all of that is decided beforeit even hits the marketers desk.
(10:39):
And then we get, A lump sum ofmoney.
So then we will be able to divvyup, like if Nebraska is doing
worse than most likely LA, thenwe can put more money to
Nebraska, to the markets thatreally like maybe the artist is
trying to get bigger there ortrying to feed that audience.
Cause that may be not thepopular, genre there.
(11:00):
So we can play around withdifferent markets, So we'll
reach out to each individualmarketer and we will tell them
what our budgets are and thenwe'll let them know what we're
doing from the national levels.
So whether that's like Googledisplay ads Facebook, Instagram,
Twitter ads we'll put togetherlike what we're thinking, and
then they can either run itafter we're done so that they
(11:21):
don't compete against each otherand then they will send us their
comprehensive ad plan.
So anything that they think thatwill be good for certain genres
versus others.
Obviously like we see verydifferent results depending on
if it's an older crowd or ayounger crowd or depending on
the genre.
So then we rely on the marketersa lot to deal with their their
(11:42):
partners.
So if they work with A smallrecord shop, or if they have a
good relationship with the pizzaplace down the street, like
where we can put up posters andflyers and do like a ticket
giveaway and stuff, just tocreate some buzz about the show.
So they'll do a lot of stufflike that.
But it depends on the market orsome people do it differently.
We have a system called Roam, inwhich we like we'll put in all
(12:04):
of the budgets that we havespent.
And then the socials person willgive us the recap of how much
it's spent and The digital anddisplay team will send us how
much they spent and, the localswill input their numbers.
And so we all have acomprehensive list so that we
don't go over budget, or let'ssay the show sold out, then we
can cut all spend so that we'renot overspending as well.
(12:26):
And you know sometimes thebookers like really want to
impress an agent because maybethe last tour didn't go so well.
Or like maybe they're reallytrying to get like an exclusive,
Live Nation partnership withthis artist.
They may put some of their ownbucket of cash that they put
aside sometimes, and they maywant to put more.
But yeah, it depends on howthings go.
(12:47):
And we collect all of themarketing plans and then we send
it cause we, we can't doanything without artists'
permission We have to get itapproved by whether, like I was
saying, whether it's like thedirect manager, whether it is
like the marketer of their team.
Sometimes we work directly withthe artists, but that is rare.
And then they approve eachmarket.
(13:09):
And then on the promotionalside, as you said we have
marketers or us, ourselves, areach out to radio partners.
And we asked them for apromotional proposal, which is
them securing, how much playthat they will put towards this,
how many commercials they willrun, how much they'll talk about
it.
They obviously negotiate to getmore tickets and, you know we
(13:30):
try to make sure that we'regetting enough.
Airplay and talk on the radioabout it to then balance out the
amount of tickets that we give.
Usually it's, just really isabout keeping like every diamond
penny and writing it down,sometimes things happen because
we are managing a bunch of toursat once sometimes.
So you have to be very verycareful in making sure that you
(13:51):
aren't spending money that's notthere because some of that money
like can come from an artistside.
Or, depending on thoseconversations.
So it just doesn't look good.
If someone goes over budget on ashow,
Sarah Ohta (14:03):
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
Kind of on a similar note onething my previous manager at
Live Nation mentioned is thatthe ticketing companies also
owned venues or have reallystrong connections with certain
venues.
Does that play into how choresare routed and budgeted at the
end of the day?
Danielle Zucchini (14:18):
Yes.
With Live Nation, because theyare so big, they do own quite a
few venues across the country.
With those negotiations with theagent, they definitely try to
push all the Live Nation ownedand operated venues, because
it's just less cost.
Because if it's like a venuethat's owned by the city, then
it's just, there's a lot morecosts that go into.
They always of course try topush for their own venues across
(14:41):
the country.
So Ticketmaster's owned by LiveNation and access.com is owned
by AEG.
So usually they try thepromoters, tried to only run
those tickets through thoseplatforms.
Just to keep the continuitythroughout tours throughout the
artists.
You know cause sometimesespecially with a lot of the
clubs and theaters world, a lotof them are third-parties So
(15:04):
sometimes like we'll have anagent or something come back and
be like, why isn't this photoupdated on this website?
And it's just a third party.
So like it's just a lot ofdifferent steps to make sure
that everything is fluid.
Sometimes an artist will comeback and be like, I really want
to play this venue.
Like I grew up in this town andit's always been a dream to play
(15:24):
this venue.
So sometimes an artist willreally push for it.
And it depends on if thepromoter doesn't think that
they're ready for that.
Or if they don't think it'llsell well, or if they'll
actually lose money to playthere, you know we'll have those
kinds of conversations, butyeah, of course they're trying
to stay true to their companyand their brand.
No matter if it is a small,independent promoter or whether
(15:46):
it is one of the bigger LiveNation or AEG, They of course
want to put, what makes sense inthe venue.
But of course they also want tobring business to their
employees.
So if they have to staff a nightat House Of Blues, they're
employing their people and theydefinitely try to put as many as
they can into their own rooms.
Micah Drigo (16:04):
I see that definitely makes sense.
Pivoting a little, we werewondering if you could break
down revenues versus costs intouring and what steps are taken
to make the tour profitable?
Danielle Zucchini (16:14):
Yeah.
No matter how big Live Nation isand how much they have behind
their name and Ticketmaster andstuff.
Sometimes tours just aren'tprofitable.
And sometimes that comes withjust, an artist is still growing
and maybe they were putting intotoo big of rooms.
Maybe they were put into roomswith too high of costs.
Like sometimes, if a smallerartist wants to do big
(16:35):
production, maybe they can't ina smaller room because they
don't have the license for that.
So that's a lot of productioncosts that go into deciding,
whether something is profitable.
And that's also something thatwhen they are routing tour cars,
they do make sure okay, whatkind of production?
Is it extensive?
Is it small?
If it's just acoustic and theycan probably go wherever.
(16:56):
At the stadium level and thearena level, those production
costs are a lot higher.
There are a lot more, obviouslyI'm sure you guys have been to
those shows.
They're just, Pyro and a lot ofkind of stuff.
And like I said, like even whenwe would have stuff at the
United Center in Chicago if itwas on a Sunday, like sometimes
like they'd have to pay time anda half for, employees.
(17:17):
So yeah, a lot of those costsrack up.
Sometimes it can be a verysuccessful tour and you can come
out of a certain night and notmake as much As planned,
sometimes things blow out of thewater and sell out really
quickly.
And then sometimes, even superseasoned people that have been
doing this for 20 years will belike shocked that something sold
(17:38):
out or made as much money as itdid.
Sometimes there's always a weirdcases like that, but you can't
always be profitable.
And like I said, sometimesthey're just really trying to
impress an agent or thatartist's team, because maybe
they really do think like a starwill blow up.
So If you stick with an artistat the beginning, like if
they're like, Oh, Live Nation orAEG, was there like helping my
(18:00):
career from the beginning, theymight be a little more loyal to
them and stick with themthroughout the times when
they're as big as like TheWeeknd or something.
So yeah it's a lot of just trialand error and, you know
sometimes they will even papershows, which I don't know if you
guys are familiar with that, butthat is, when you're just trying
to get bodies in the room.
So you just give away ticketsfor free, essentially, because
(18:22):
in the hopes of that, it's notonly to please the artists
because the room is more filled,but it also will bring more
money to the food and Bev givemore artists money for like
merchandise.
So they just hope that if itshows selling, pretty badly, at
least it's giving exposure tothe band in the longterm.
And then maybe profit more offof some of the venue costs that,
(18:43):
that may be the ticket salesitself didn't get to.
You know, sometimes it's justwhether you want to take the
risk, if the talent buyer feelslike the artist is worth taking
the risk for.
So yeah there's a lot offactors, but they're not always
profitable.
And sometimes they will want toput more towards marketing to
really get the name out thereand to really try to push more
tickets.
So yeah, there's just there's notour that's ever for sure going
(19:07):
to.
Otherwise, like you're justgoing to lose clients.
Peyton Chen (19:12):
That's totally fair.
To wrap up this section, I haveone more question that I think
would be really helpful foranyone listening.
For anyone who wants to enterlive music in a marketing
capacity, do you have any adviceabout how to navigate the
industry and how to start?
Danielle Zucchini (19:27):
Yeah, I will say you have to like full
heartedly, love this industrybecause it's going to be.
A lot of pain, it's going to bea lot of, it's going to be a lot
of struggling.
It's going to be a lot ofnetworking.
It's going to be a lot ofrejection.
It's tough.
So you have to be like, I'mwilling to fight for this.
I know I'm good enough to getthis.
Even if five other companieshave told me that I'm not.
(19:49):
So you have to take risks.
You have to believe in yourself.
But I think a lot of people getinto music cause they love
parties and they love music andit's most people love music.
But you have to like really bewilling to do grunt work.
And it's not fun.
Like all the times I was anintern, like the things that we
would have to do and I'm nottelling you to ever do something
that is wrong or something thatmakes you unhappy.
(20:13):
There is always a line and younever should go to a place where
it's uncomfortable for you.
So if let's say someone comes upto you and.
It seeing where you're thinkingabout, a part of music that
you've never really thought youhad an interest in, try it out,
unless the people are completelyterrible humans, which does
happen in the industry.
(20:34):
And you shouldn't surroundyourself around that, but just,
obviously from my background andwhat I told you, I did so many
random things just to see what Iliked, what I didn't like.
And make good impressions, workhard, be there for people just
make those relationships reallyconnect with people, keep in
touch with them through years,even if you're, I've connections
(20:55):
in so many different states fromall the events that I worked.
So don't just be like, I've hadso many interns that we had at
Live Nation that were like, Idon't want to do like this part
of the industry.
And I'm like, take a job, take ajob that like some, if someone
sees something in, you take thatopportunity, it could always
come back to what you want todo, but never just be like, Oh,
(21:15):
I'm too good for this.
Or this isn't my passion.
Sometimes the industry will takeyou in ways that you didn't
know.
And yeah just, it's going to bea hustle and you have to be
willing to hustle.
And if you don't love it thatmuch, you're probably not going
to be willing to do it.
If that I know that's like kindof morbid, but it's, it is the
reality of it.
And I think people, eitherrealize that early on and leave
(21:37):
or they're like, okay, I gottakeep busting my ass to get
there.
Sarah Ohta (21:43):
Our third and final guest is Kaleb Herbel-Eisenmann
and he is currently a creativemanager at Abstract Management.
In the past he has worked withartists such as Xavier Omär,
Still Woozy, Remi Wolf and Nao.
Since we built some contextaround touring from an artistic
and financial perspective wewanted to ask Kaleb about some
of his experiences touring withartists in North America.
Peyton Chen (22:01):
So for our audience at home it'd be really great if
you could maybe elaborate alittle bit on what is a creative
manager and what your role is inthat capacity?
Kaleb Eisenmann (22:09):
Definitely.
I think it varies really forwhoever the client is.
So I usually provide supportmore so on like a branding art
direction development sort ofside.
And for artists who are runningtours, who have label deals, et
cetera, there's a lot to managefrom accounting and business
management as well.
And so my partner that I workwith right now from a management
(22:30):
perspective, he handles almostall of that stuff.
Making sure that the taxes aredone appropriately.
Invoicing just having all oftheir finances in a row,
negotiating contract terms, thatsort of stuff.
And I'd actually been learning alot more about that.
Cause I went to school foradvertising for graphic art have
been, a musician and an artistsort of my whole life.
And so I understand that kind ofstuff.
(22:50):
So I think with certain clientsI am responsible for helping
them feel inspired, making surethat.
Songs worked on and goingthrough demos that they have in
studio sessions and picking outideas that stand out to me and
talking to them about that andbeing like, okay, how do you
feel about this one?
What are you excited about withthis idea?
What do you think it could beworked on?
Who do you think are people whowe could bring in to help with
(23:11):
the drum programming for thissong?
Are there specific engineersthat you'd like to get in the
studio with?
Could they offer something, andhelping them find a rhythm for
things like that.
And then once the music is donewhat's the look and feel of this
release going to be, do you needanimation?
Do you need photography?
Do you need a video?
What's the budget for the video?
Who could we tap for whateverwhat's the inspiration, that
kind of stuff.
(23:31):
Which is definitely superexciting and nothing is ever
really the same day twice or thesame project twice, which has
been really rewarding.
And that being said, I stillhave a lot to learn about the.
The legal side, the contracting,the financials which I've been
learning a lot lately and wouldlike to stress that is equally
as important because there's alot of people who have great
ideas and great work, but don'thave their stuff together on the
(23:53):
back end like that and end up ina lot of trouble.
Because at the end of the day,it is running a business to keep
them, housed and fed.
And a lot of times also keepingtheir families fed and in house
and stuff.
The financial aspect of it isalso very important.
Peyton Chen (24:06):
So since your role is definitely more focused on
the creative side I'd reallylike to know where in the
process your work intersectswith live music and touring so
maybe dealing with designing howthe show is going to run or
maybe you're more on thelogistics side but it'd be
really great to know where yourwork falls into place in the
context of live music andtouring.
Kaleb Eisenmann (24:23):
So certain things that I could help with
are taking the studio recordingsand sitting with artists and
like their friends who are inthe band, or, first of all,
asking, do you want to performwith the band?
Do you want to just runperformance tracks and sing?
Helping them think about whatthe live show is going to look
and feel like you had said, anddepending on how big the tour
is, that can mean set design,that can be lighting design.
(24:44):
That can mean sequencing whatthe songs are going to be.
And then even coming down toworking with someone, to arrange
the songs, I've toured withpeople who arrange all their own
stuff, but also sometimes that'sa service that people need is
what is the live version of thissong gonna sound like?
Because you can't always accessall of the sounds and stuff that
you had.
From the studio version.
(25:04):
And oftentimes you don't wantto, you want to play with the
band.
Do you want it to sounddifferent and feel bigger in the
room and have this energy thatcomes from having a band behind
you.
So I've helped with that kind ofstuff with Xavier's tour.
And I was definitelyinstrumental in helping the
branding for the tour.
And what's the looking fieldgoing to be the set design he
had this idea that he wanted itto be that's like fake radio
station that he referenced onthe album a couple of times.
(25:27):
So we had somebody design a fullbrand kit for the radio station,
so colors, typeface logo.
And then we built that out ontothe set design as well.
He had some friends recorddifferent interludes that kind
of felt like radio commercialsthat were played throughout the
show.
So just really sitting withartists leading brainstorming
sessions for what they want theshelves to look like, and then
(25:49):
taking those abstract ideas andreally figuring out logistically
how that works out is definitelysomething that I've done and
something that's exciting for meto do.
And because you have theseideas, that are super cool, but
they're all abstracts.
And it's okay, can we build thisone?
How heavy is it going to be?
Can we carry it in and out ofthe venue every single night?
What's the size of it.
And what are the size of thestages that we're working with?
Is it going to fit on everystage?
(26:11):
Who can we tap for lightingdesign?
How does lighting design goingto fit into the set design?
All that kind of stuff, whichseems very small and behind the
scenes, but at the end of theday, you know if something goes
wrong with any of that stuff, itcan be a real chore for tour
managers and ultimately for theartist.
So that's how it has intersectedlive music.
Sarah Ohta (26:29):
Yeah.
So on a similar note, I wantedto ask about.
If you could break down some ofthe mechanics of what tour looks
like when you're on the road.
You know, maybe we could talkabout Xavier Omär show in
particular.Since that's wherethe two of us got connected But
yeah I know that you were doinga lot of the day-to-day for
Xavier Omär's tour so I thinkit'd be cool to show our
listeners that perspective
Kaleb Eisenmann (26:48):
Obviously I've worked on tours from an agency
perspective, from a managementperspective and then like
actually been on the toursthemselves.
And the agency and basicallycontracts all of it and we'll do
all the routing and they'reworking with management to
figure out what's going to workbest.
And then obviously a ton ofthings that, that need to happen
to make sure that you have allof your shows confirmed and
contracted and finalized, andthen you can announce it.
(27:10):
And then on sale as a wholedifferent thing, you have to
communicate with each of thepromoters in each region or
each.
Venue sometimes to make surethat on sale is working and
ticket sales and you're gettingupdates.
And from a managementperspective, you're trying to
figure out what's selling,what's not selling what you can
do on social media to get peoplemore engaged.
That sort of stuff.
and then, okay, are we gonnahave a bus or we're gonna have a
(27:31):
Sprinter, what does the staffneed to look like for the tour?
So on Xavier's tour we had abus; Xavier is a big bus guy.
He likes having the comfort ofthe bus, you know every tour
I've gone with him, he likes tohave that was fan.
We just do it in a MercedesSprinter and there's only five
of us.
So it was super comfortable.
And we stayed at Airbnb's everynight, or hotels.
And then.
I think that actually beinghired to go on a tour is a
(27:54):
pretty like you don't put outapplications like, Hey, we're
looking for, or whatever, itjust like works through
nepotism, honestly throughreferrals And so by me working
at a venue, I knew people whowere touring and then obviously
when I got into the managementside, I was able to be hired to
go out and work on many, I wasjust like on Xavier's tour
filling in different gaps thatneeded help.
So sometimes it would be okay.
(28:14):
Load in is taking a while.
So I would, help move all of thecases in and unpack everything
and build the stage and thatsort of stuff.
But like you said, I was alsorunning point for anybody who
wanted to do interviews.
So getting that cleared byXavier, finding time, scheduling
it, asking, what are thequestions going to be?
And talking with the otherpeople on the management team
about, okay let's not talk aboutthis, let's do this instead.
(28:36):
And oftentimes people are prettyflexible on what the interview's
going to be in, asking what isthis going to be used?
How long are you going to haveit up for, that kind of stuff.
And then, we always wanted tomake sure that we had,
Photographers there too tocapture the show.
So we had our own photographeron the tour and he had certain
tasks to do, and we wereshooting video a YouTube series
that I helped edit and produceso there would be certain shot
(28:56):
lists that I would give outevery day.
I was like, okay.
Here's so Matt was the videoguy.
Matt Heifer is super talented.
So helping him with like shotlists and being like, okay, we
need a.
And Instagram recap in one, oneaspect ratio, we need a nine 16
aspect ratio for this and this,and it needs to be six to 10
seconds long, and it shouldfeature XYZ, So keeping on top
of that I would put the tourmanager to run guest list stuff
(29:19):
and make sure that guests camein.
Some people got different accessdepending on who they were.
So if it was like Xavier'sfriends or family or
collaborators, I would bemeeting them at 2:00 PM and
giving them like all accesscredentials and they could do
whatever they wanted for the dayor photographers who would be
showing up right at doors andI'd have to go meet them and
give them their pass and in thatkind of stuff.
And then during the show usuallywould just hang out and edit
(29:40):
video and relax.
And then afterwards also helpingwith.
With whatever really needed getdone again.
So it's never the same daytwice.
It's always moving and, problemsare coming up that you never
could have predicted, and youhave to be light on your feet
and flexible, I think, foranybody on the tour, that would
be true.
I think that like the schedulereally depends on having a good
(30:01):
management and tour managementteam.
Having a good tour manager canprovide a way better experience
for everybody.
Sarah Ohta (30:06):
Yeah.
What does the tour manager do?
Exactly, because I think I methim briefly, but I remember he
was so busy that entire periodof time.
Kaleb Eisenmann (30:14):
So you're responsible for, basically
everything.
Like you have to make sure that.
The venue knows what time you'recoming.
So advancing all of the shows,making sure that the venue is
prepared for the kinds ofequipment that you need to run
and use for the show, makingsure that there's stagehands
there to help you, or if there'snot stage hands, knowing that
you don't have them so that youprepare accordingly to stay on
(30:35):
schedule.
So the tour manager, it needs tokeep you on schedule every day.
They.
Work with the bus driver to tryto figure out, where the bus
driver is sleeping at, I don'tknow if it's like a union thing
or a contract thing, but theyonly have so many hours that
they're legally permitted orcontracted to drive every day.
So working with the bus driverto log those hours, make sure
the bus driver gets paid out,make sure that everybody on the
(30:56):
tour is getting paid on time andthe correct amounts, making sure
that we stay on schedule.
Running guest list, making surethat they settle the shows every
night, obviously huge, right?
Like a small thing to do, but ifyou don't settle the show you
leave and you don't get paid.
What, that's a huge mistake.
So making sure that happens,making sure that merged splits
are determined before the show.
So some venues will take 10% ofyour merge cut.
(31:18):
Just making sure thateverybody's staying informed and
that everything runs smoothly.
And yeah, there's a ton of stuffthat you have to work out, doing
all the accounting with flights.
So Xavier's lives in SanAntonio, Texas, and his band all
lives in San Antonio and touriststarted in Seattle.
So we have to get the band andall of their gear from San
Antonio to Seattle, we have tomake sure that the bus is
(31:39):
waiting for us in Seattle.
So everybody, arranging flightsfor everybody, arranging
shipping for all of the gear,making sure that we get
everything, on time at the bus.
And obviously things go wrongall the time.
So being able to solve put outfires, come up with solutions to
problems on the spot all thetime.
And it, it can make or break atour sometimes.
If the tour manager messes upand you miss soundcheck and you
(31:59):
don't get to soundcheck and thenthe artist comes out and hasn't
even really used that like soundsystem and you know the
engineer, like then they have tofigure out what the hell is
going on and it can be late andthe show can go poorly.
So tour managing is difficult.
Shout out to everybody who areseasoned tour managers out
there.
Cause they're like, hard-asspeople like have so much respect
for all of them.
All of those people for sure
Sarah Ohta (32:20):
Yeah I can imagine that sounds like such a
difficult job I remember that Iwas chilling with most of the
other people on your team so Ithink it would be good if you
could overview who exactly is onthe staff when you're traveling
on tour
Kaleb Eisenmann (32:32):
if you're touring and playing rooms that
are like a thousand to 2,500people, your staff will be a bus
driver, the tour manager, theartist, anyone who's like in the
band.
So that could be a drummer or abasis to keys player, a guitar
player.
So you have the band, you haveyour merch seller.
Sometimes you'll have a lightingperson, but you can also use
like the in-house or the venuelighting you'll have a sound
(32:53):
person.
So they're, running the wholeproduction mixture.
Everything's miked up.
Everything sounds good.
All the instruments are soundinggood, having the proper
equipment and, that can takehours to get.
And I think I'm getting offtopic here, but Nao, her like
production crew in her band wasincredible like immaculate,
they're so talented.
And they would be in the venueat 11:00 AM before the 7:00 PM
show and just sound checking andjust, running everything.
(33:16):
And they're so professional andso talented.
And having good productionpeople on the tour is huge.
So usually that's like a soundengineer.
Some artists have what's calledlike in, in-ear monitor tech so
that, have you ever seen themlike have like little, it looks
like like little ear pods in, orlittle headphones that so that
they can hear themselves andhear each other.
And so sometimes you'll haveanother person who's just
running that system And thenyou'll have a photographer
(33:38):
sometimes and a video person.
I'm trying to think if I missedanything that usually would be.
Like a a pretty full tour staff.
And I know that just, throughtalking to different people,
like somebody just took it witha personal assistant or a
stylist or a makeup and hairperson.
It's really up to you Xaviertook his wife on tour.
So she was there, helping outwith merch and just providing
good energy for everybody.
(33:59):
it's really up to the artistdepending on what they need as
well.
Sarah Ohta (34:02):
Okay.
Awesome.
So what's been the mostenjoyable part of touring, but
also what's been the leastenjoyable part because I think
it's good to keep a perspectiveof realism when we're talking
about live music because I knowat least in the photographer
community for music industry alot of people tend to have a
very idealized vision of whattouring and what working in the
music industry looks like.
Kaleb Eisenmann (34:23):
I think, obviously touring gets like very
glamorized, I feel like, butit's definitely, I've said to
people like the worst, bestthing ever it's super enjoyable
and fun obviously, and the showsare great.
And I was just telling Peyton, alot of the memories that I hold
like very close are, you know,going to Whataburger at one in
the morning after a festivalslot or after a show or, you
know, just.
Having an off day where you'rejust parked in a Walmart in New
(34:45):
Jersey and you'd take an Uberinto the city and just, you
know, having a good time withthese people that you maybe just
met last week.
And, you definitely get reallyclose with those people because
you're seeing them every minuteof every day.
it is long hours, you know?
Usually would work from likenoon to two in the morning,
sleeping in a little teeny bunkon a bus.
Yeah, it's winter time andyou're going 60 miles an hour
(35:06):
and hitting bumps and turns andthat it takes some getting used
to, you know, there's eightpeople, but living on this bus,
or I think we had 11 orsomething on the last tour.
And so it's really crowded andyou don't always know if you're
going to have a bathroom or ashower or, your diet gets pretty
bad.
Like my body would just feelreally gnarly sometimes.
Cause you know I just worked for10 hours and it's 1:00 AM and
(35:29):
I'm in, I don't know, likeSacramento and I'm like, okay,
what the hell is even open rightnow?
And so I have to go to seven 11and get whatever I can find for
food.
And then I don't eat againuntil.
1:00 PM the next day.
And I wake up and the firstthing I do is pull up in Google
maps to figure out where like,where the hell I'm even at and
what's around me and, so thatcan be, can definitely wreak a
lot on your mind and body.
(35:49):
So I think, me and the engineerand the tour manager on Xavier's
tour, we'd go and do yoga a lot.
We had a class pass kind ofthing.
So taking time to really takecare of yourself and drink a lot
of water and that kind of stuffgood.
And, definitely the people thatyou're with where you're touring
at, it has a big effect on italso.
But, you know, waking up and notknowing where you are and how
you're going to eat her salad.
It can be stressful.
Sarah Ohta (36:11):
Yeah.
Like when do you guys evensleep?
You know, I remember low keywhen I came to the Xavier Omär
show, I pulled up at aroundfive, but the show wasn't till
nine and the majority of thestaff just said, I'm gonna go
take a three-hour nap on thebus.
Kaleb Eisenmann (36:24):
And it's way easier to sleep on the bus when
it's not moving.
But usually, what would happenis we would have a call time for
when the bus is leaving the cityto go to the next place.
for example, say we're playing,so this is a common routing.
It'll do Chicago and thenDetroit.
So that's about maybe like afive-hour six hour drive.
So we'll play Chicago, loadeverything out of the venue by
1:00 AM and then the bus willleave at three or whatever.
(36:45):
The bus drivers are usuallydriving all night and sleeping
all day.
So we'll get them a hotel roomthat Uber to their hotel asleep
all day, come to the bus atthree or six in the morning or
whatever.
And then most of us would go tosleep at between one and 2:00 AM
and then you'd hear the busstart up and, you know, you wake
up and you're like, ah, allright.
And then the bus takes off andwe would be driving until about
like 11 or 1:00 PM the next day.
(37:07):
You wake up and sometimes you'restill moving.
Sometimes you wake up and you'reat the venue or I'd wake up and
I'm thinking I'm at the venue.
Cause we're not moving.
And I go out there and seewhat's going on.
And we'll just add some gasstation, in Southern Michigan or
something.
But yeah, I usually sleep fromthree in the morning until 11 or
so.
Sarah Ohta (37:23):
Oh, God, that's really chaotic.
Kaleb Eisenmann (37:25):
Yeah.
And that was the bus.
Like with Sven, on the StillWoozy tour we had Airbnbs, so
oftentimes we would, just goright to the Airbnb after the
show.
And we would sleep from likemidnight.
We usually would get up at sixor seven in the morning and we
didn't have a driver.
We just took turns driving.
So we'd get up at six or 7:00 AMand drive to the next place or.
I don't remember if there wasany times that we drove after
the show.
(37:45):
Now there definitely was wherewe'd get a couple of hours of
driving in right after the showand stop somewhere and get a
hotel or whatever, you know?
I think that like the schedulereally depends on having a good
management and tour managementteam.
Having a good tour manager canprovide a way better experience
for everybody.
Sarah Ohta (38:01):
Okay so our very last question for you is whether
you've had any crazy ormemorable moments from touring
maybe the craziest thing that'sever happened to you I think
would be kind of a fun story toend on.
Kaleb Eisenmann (38:12):
Let's see.
So Sango, who's a producerreally dope producer.
He executive produced twoprojects with Xavier.
He was touring at the same timethat we were touring and we were
actually both in San Diego onthe same night.
And so after our show, we allwent over to San Gusto and we
got to be in the DJ booth withhim during the show.
And that was a ton of fun.
(38:34):
He is somebody who I definitelyrespect and admire his work.
he did drum programming on, inmy room by Frank Ocean and has
just, contributed to a ton ofreally dope records.
And so just like being there inthe booth with him while he was
DJing and, you know, show off alittle bit and look at you and
be like, yeah.
You know, like having thatinteraction with artists is
really fun.
And you know, just like thepeople I've met for sure.
(38:54):
Everybody on the Still Woozytour was super dope and.
I still have relationships witha lot of them.
And, Remi Wolf is somebody whois absolutely taking off right
now.
She just played, Fallon her songgot placed on a global Apple
campaign.
Like just seeing that kind ofstuff happen after, you know,
she was chasing us in her.
Toyota Prius and like gettingparking tickets and shit like on
(39:15):
tour you know like just makingit through the day.
And now she's in positions whereher song is on an Apple
commercial, that's airing allover the world, you know, that's
really tight to see.
So those relationships aredefinitely really special.
And, you know, there's certainpeople who will like instigate
random ideas.
Like Hey, let's do this.
And you got nowhere to be like,you did your job for the day.
So you're kind of like cool,let's do it.
And you just get into a lot ofsuper random and hilarious
(39:38):
situations.
I think like behind the scenesthat ended up being the most fun
part.
Micah Drigo (39:43):
Thank you again to our amazing guests, Kaleb
Eisenmann, Darius Zelhka andDanielle Zucchini.
We hope you've gained takeawaysabout the world of live music
and touring in the musicindustry.
We'd also like to give a hugethank you to Jay and to our
class Music 150P (39:55):
The Changing World of Popular Music.
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into
conversations with some of themusic industry's most
established professionals.
Like all of our episodes, whatyou will hear today has been
created and curated by Stanfordstudents who are breaking their
way into the music scene.
I'm Jay LeBouef and I leadStanford University's music
industry initiatives.
Whether you're aspiring tolaunch your career in the music
industry are already a musicindustry pro, or just curious to
(00:29):
learn more.
We've got you covered.
Sarah Ohta (00:32):
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to the StanfordMusic Industry Podcast where we
have conversations with some oftoday's leading industry leaders
in order to offer a behind thescenes perspective on the music
industry.
I'm Sarah.
Peyton Chen (00:43):
I'm Peyton.
Micah Drigo (00:44):
And I'm Micah,
Sarah Ohta (00:45):
And today we'll be focusing our episode on live
music specifically lookingwithin the context of domestic
mid-cap touring in North Americawe were very lucky to be able to
talk with a few guests hailingfrom different parts of the live
music industry.
So we'll be able to get a clearpicture as to how tours are
organized and operated from boththe creative and financial side.
Peyton Chen (01:04):
First up, we have Darius Zelkha who was previously
the owner of tough love artistmanagement, and is now an artist
manager and marketingpartnerships director at
Brilliant Corners ArtistManagement.
Brilliant Corners has workedwith individuals like The
Submarines, Death Cab for Cutie,and She Him.
We wanted to talk to Dariusbecause he is able to explain
booking and the various touringlogistics from the artist
management perspective and he'sgoing to help us begin to
(01:26):
understand the decision makingthat drives touring before the
show even starts.
Darius Zelkha (01:30):
I'll talk about this as if the world is a little
more back to normal so if we'retalking about tours that are
mid-sized venues, I assume, wemean somewhere between a
thousand and three thousandcapacity places.
Maybe a little bit larger thanthat.
The first thing about that isthat artists that are playing
that size venue, they have atrack record.
(01:50):
They have a history, they haveticket sales.
That's totally different than aband that's maybe going on their
first tour or has never touredthe U S before, but has success
elsewhere.
If you're talking about thosesides of venues generally, the
band has history and thestarting point for booking a
tour is generally looking atwhat the band's history is with
the agent and, I would talk tothe agent about it and see what
(02:13):
kinds of venues might makesense, both artistically and
financially for the band.
So let's say it's a band thathas typically played, The
Fillmore in San Francisco, whichI think is 1100 tickets and
let's say the last couple oftimes they've done it, they've
sold that room out.
The starting point for us wouldbasically be, do we feel like
there's enough momentum to stepup to whatever the next room
(02:35):
would be?
In the market, do we feel likethat's a good fit for the band's
audience?
For example, the next room mightbe a place where there's seats
in it as opposed to standingroom.
Is that something that theband's audience would want and
artistically, does it make sensefor the band to do that?
Just to show growth showevolution of what they're doing,
or is it a situation where everytime they've come to San
(02:58):
Francisco, the show has donewell at the Fillmore, but it's
done about the same businesseach time.
And so the estimate should be,we're going to about, we're
going to do about 1100 tickets.
Does it make sense to do a placethat we know the fans want to go
to and they seem comfortable, ordoes it make sense to do
something different?
That feels like a step for theband.
at that point, the booking agentwould go and essentially solicit
(03:21):
offers.
From the different venues intown.
So generally what happens thebooking agent will come back to
us with a what's called arouting, which is essentially
what he thinks the tour shouldlook like.
or she, we work with a lot offemale agents as well.
They will then look at it.
We'll take a look at that andbeing familiar with a lot of the
venues, we'll have aconversation with the agent
(03:42):
about why he, or she feels likethis is the right thing to do.
It might be something where theartist comes to us and says,
this is a much quieter record.
So I only want to do seatedplaces this time around, or the
artists might come to us andsay, I've played, larger venues
for the last two tours.
I want this tour to be twonights stands in smaller venues
(04:03):
that add up to the same numberof tickets.
so a lot of our job is tocoordinate the vision with what
the economics of it would looklike, and some of that might be
as simple as wow, this band hasa lot of momentum.
We're pretty sure we're going totour twice on this record.
What's an arc of touring for theyear that allows that to happen.
(04:26):
For example, does it make senseto start at a venue that's
smaller than the one that youplayed before?
Have it sell out quickly andthen immediately put on sale?
Another show that's larger.
To give the impression ofmomentum in the market.
I'd say the tricky thing abouttouring is a lot of times are
making those decisions six oreight months before the record
even comes out.
And so it's really an educatedguess about what's going to
(04:48):
happen with the band more thanit is a reflexive, response to
radio airplay or tickets goingon sale in the market.
So you're essentially makingyour best guess and you're
gauging the enthusiasm of yourpartners.
So if you're getting a bunch ofoffers for shows, say in San
Francisco, that are aggressive,there's a sense that the
(05:09):
promoters or the people on theground that are putting their
money.
Into the show feel like it'sgoing to be a successful show.
They feel like there's some heatfrom the band.
It's very much like getting asense of what the buy-in is from
everyone else involved in it.
And our job is to basicallyquarterback that to then,
determine based on theseoptions, what the best path for
(05:30):
the artist will be.
Peyton Chen (05:31):
I can see how the decision-making process can get
complicated pretty quickly.
On a similar note have you evermet an artist that disagreed
with you on your recommendationsfor festival and touring
decisions and could you explainhow you dealt with that?
Darius Zelkha (05:42):
Yeah.
That happens all the time.
it's not so much necessarilythat we disagree on it, but that
we need to explain to them likewhat the logic is with it.
And honestly it's a difficultconversation because no, even
though a lot of bands, careersgo like this It's a challenging
thing to say to someone like,look, I know you've worked hard
to get to the place where you'regoing to play the Fillmore.
(06:04):
It didn't go that well, lasttime we should play a room.
That's, two thirds that sizethat you don't like as much.
In my experience, There are someartists that are very clear-eyed
about that and understand that'sjust a part of a longer career.
And as long as there's astrategy behind why we're doing
it this time.
Cool.
That's a harder conversation.
I think if there's an artistthat's risen really quickly and
(06:27):
is dipping.
A bit.
And so in my experience withthat, a lot of times you might
avoid that conversation by doinglike a very creative venue in
one of those markets, somethingthat feels like, Whoa, like not
that many people do a showthere.
The issue with those issometimes you don't make as much
money because you need to bringin production and it's not set
up to do that.
(06:48):
But sometimes you would look atthat and be like, Oh, Hey, for
this market where we struggledlast time, this feels like a
cool creative idea to do.
But then there are some timeswhen you just say Hey, that
shouldn't go very well.
So we're going to do this roominstead, or we're going to work
with the new promoter there.
I think we're lucky in the sensethat a lot of our artists have
toured so much that theyunderstand that's just a part of
it a lot of the time.
(07:08):
There are also always shows on atour that are usually one or two
that you hear about for yearsafterwards, because they totally
sucked.
And that's just part of thedeal.
Micah Drigo (07:17):
Yeah, I'm sure it's not easy to make those difficult
decisions for your artist'ssuccess.
what are some other ways thatyou've been able to make
yourself an effective artistmanager?
Darius Zelkha (07:25):
Sure.
I think I'll try to tailor theanswers to touring specifically,
because it sounds like that'swhat you guys are focused on
here.
Obviously the touring aspect isprobably for a lot of our bands
who are, tend to be moreindependent, larger,
independent, hardest, that tendsto be the thing that has been
the driver of most of theircareers.
(07:46):
I'd say that's the thing that alot of the bands start by doing
is trying to get out on the roadand play shows.
I think as the landscape ofmusic has changed and recorded
music has become less of adriver.
I'd say the touring aspect of ittends to be one of the major
components of the marketingplan.
For that.
So I would say when we'rethinking about a new release or
(08:08):
we're thinking about signing anew artist, or we're thinking
about what an existing artist isgoing to do for an upcoming
album cycle, the touringcomponent of it, both the
amount, the strategy, how it'spresented is one of the major
aspects of the marketingcampaign and something that we
would work very closely with theband's booking agent who
(08:29):
actually routes the tourcontracts, the shows solicits
offers from either festivals orclubs for that we would work.
We would almost, we would beprobably started working on that
with the booking agent beforewe've even started working with
the record label on the releasestate.
So it tends to be a very primaryelement of an album cycle.
(08:50):
And it's also tends to be for usas managers.
And I think for the band aswell, it, it has historically
been a very strong economicdriver.
I would say more than, mostbands touring as a majority of
the income they would earn.
And I would say it's it's also aprimary driver of us to gauge
the success of a given projectlike ticket sales and growth or
(09:13):
maintenance of touring tends tobe something we look to see if
it was successful or if we feltthere were things we could
improve on next time.
Micah Drigo (09:22):
Our second guest is Danielle Zucchini.
Danielle previously worked atLive Nation as a global
marketing manager, where sheoversaw multiple marketing and
promotional plans for artistsand strategize creative
campaigns for North Americantours.
We were so excited to askDanielle about her time at Live
Nation, especially since she'svery familiar with how tours
operate from the viewpoint ofprofit and finances.
Sarah Ohta (09:42):
So an area that we really lack visibility on is how
people handle tour budgets.
How people coordinate with thevenues and the different
responsibilities you might betaking on as a marketing
manager.
So we'd really love to hear moreabout your perspective on that.
Danielle Zucchini (09:55):
It depends per artist, you know some of the
bigger artists don't have aday-to-day manager help with
that.
Like maybe an agent will help ora marketer at one of the
agencies.
So it looks different for eachtour and for each artists
depending on how they exactlywant it to run.
most of it, I will say starts atthe talent buyer and the booking
(10:17):
levels.
So they depending on the show,decide all the budgeting but,
depending on the negotiationsthat happen between the agent
and the talent buyer to figureout what the best Tools are, and
what works best for the artists,what will make more money for
both the venue, the promoter andthe artist.
So all of that is decided beforeit even hits the marketers desk.
(10:39):
And then we get, A lump sum ofmoney.
So then we will be able to divvyup, like if Nebraska is doing
worse than most likely LA, thenwe can put more money to
Nebraska, to the markets thatreally like maybe the artist is
trying to get bigger there ortrying to feed that audience.
Cause that may be not thepopular, genre there.
(11:00):
So we can play around withdifferent markets, So we'll
reach out to each individualmarketer and we will tell them
what our budgets are and thenwe'll let them know what we're
doing from the national levels.
So whether that's like Googledisplay ads Facebook, Instagram,
Twitter ads we'll put togetherlike what we're thinking, and
then they can either run itafter we're done so that they
(11:21):
don't compete against each otherand then they will send us their
comprehensive ad plan.
So anything that they think thatwill be good for certain genres
versus others.
Obviously like we see verydifferent results depending on
if it's an older crowd or ayounger crowd or depending on
the genre.
So then we rely on the marketersa lot to deal with their their
(11:42):
partners.
So if they work with A smallrecord shop, or if they have a
good relationship with the pizzaplace down the street, like
where we can put up posters andflyers and do like a ticket
giveaway and stuff, just tocreate some buzz about the show.
So they'll do a lot of stufflike that.
But it depends on the market orsome people do it differently.
We have a system called Roam, inwhich we like we'll put in all
(12:04):
of the budgets that we havespent.
And then the socials person willgive us the recap of how much
it's spent and The digital anddisplay team will send us how
much they spent and, the localswill input their numbers.
And so we all have acomprehensive list so that we
don't go over budget, or let'ssay the show sold out, then we
can cut all spend so that we'renot overspending as well.
(12:26):
And you know sometimes thebookers like really want to
impress an agent because maybethe last tour didn't go so well.
Or like maybe they're reallytrying to get like an exclusive,
Live Nation partnership withthis artist.
They may put some of their ownbucket of cash that they put
aside sometimes, and they maywant to put more.
But yeah, it depends on howthings go.
(12:47):
And we collect all of themarketing plans and then we send
it cause we, we can't doanything without artists'
permission We have to get itapproved by whether, like I was
saying, whether it's like thedirect manager, whether it is
like the marketer of their team.
Sometimes we work directly withthe artists, but that is rare.
And then they approve eachmarket.
(13:09):
And then on the promotionalside, as you said we have
marketers or us, ourselves, areach out to radio partners.
And we asked them for apromotional proposal, which is
them securing, how much playthat they will put towards this,
how many commercials they willrun, how much they'll talk about
it.
They obviously negotiate to getmore tickets and, you know we
(13:30):
try to make sure that we'regetting enough.
Airplay and talk on the radioabout it to then balance out the
amount of tickets that we give.
Usually it's, just really isabout keeping like every diamond
penny and writing it down,sometimes things happen because
we are managing a bunch of toursat once sometimes.
So you have to be very verycareful in making sure that you
(13:51):
aren't spending money that's notthere because some of that money
like can come from an artistside.
Or, depending on thoseconversations.
So it just doesn't look good.
If someone goes over budget on ashow,
Sarah Ohta (14:03):
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
Kind of on a similar note onething my previous manager at
Live Nation mentioned is thatthe ticketing companies also
owned venues or have reallystrong connections with certain
venues.
Does that play into how choresare routed and budgeted at the
end of the day?
Danielle Zucchini (14:18):
Yes.
With Live Nation, because theyare so big, they do own quite a
few venues across the country.
With those negotiations with theagent, they definitely try to
push all the Live Nation ownedand operated venues, because
it's just less cost.
Because if it's like a venuethat's owned by the city, then
it's just, there's a lot morecosts that go into.
They always of course try topush for their own venues across
(14:41):
the country.
So Ticketmaster's owned by LiveNation and access.com is owned
by AEG.
So usually they try thepromoters, tried to only run
those tickets through thoseplatforms.
Just to keep the continuitythroughout tours throughout the
artists.
You know cause sometimesespecially with a lot of the
clubs and theaters world, a lotof them are third-parties So
(15:04):
sometimes like we'll have anagent or something come back and
be like, why isn't this photoupdated on this website?
And it's just a third party.
So like it's just a lot ofdifferent steps to make sure
that everything is fluid.
Sometimes an artist will comeback and be like, I really want
to play this venue.
Like I grew up in this town andit's always been a dream to play
(15:24):
this venue.
So sometimes an artist willreally push for it.
And it depends on if thepromoter doesn't think that
they're ready for that.
Or if they don't think it'llsell well, or if they'll
actually lose money to playthere, you know we'll have those
kinds of conversations, butyeah, of course they're trying
to stay true to their companyand their brand.
No matter if it is a small,independent promoter or whether
(15:46):
it is one of the bigger LiveNation or AEG, They of course
want to put, what makes sense inthe venue.
But of course they also want tobring business to their
employees.
So if they have to staff a nightat House Of Blues, they're
employing their people and theydefinitely try to put as many as
they can into their own rooms.
Micah Drigo (16:04):
I see that definitely makes sense.
Pivoting a little, we werewondering if you could break
down revenues versus costs intouring and what steps are taken
to make the tour profitable?
Danielle Zucchini (16:14):
Yeah.
No matter how big Live Nation isand how much they have behind
their name and Ticketmaster andstuff.
Sometimes tours just aren'tprofitable.
And sometimes that comes withjust, an artist is still growing
and maybe they were putting intotoo big of rooms.
Maybe they were put into roomswith too high of costs.
Like sometimes, if a smallerartist wants to do big
(16:35):
production, maybe they can't ina smaller room because they
don't have the license for that.
So that's a lot of productioncosts that go into deciding,
whether something is profitable.
And that's also something thatwhen they are routing tour cars,
they do make sure okay, whatkind of production?
Is it extensive?
Is it small?
If it's just acoustic and theycan probably go wherever.
(16:56):
At the stadium level and thearena level, those production
costs are a lot higher.
There are a lot more, obviouslyI'm sure you guys have been to
those shows.
They're just, Pyro and a lot ofkind of stuff.
And like I said, like even whenwe would have stuff at the
United Center in Chicago if itwas on a Sunday, like sometimes
like they'd have to pay time anda half for, employees.
(17:17):
So yeah, a lot of those costsrack up.
Sometimes it can be a verysuccessful tour and you can come
out of a certain night and notmake as much As planned,
sometimes things blow out of thewater and sell out really
quickly.
And then sometimes, even superseasoned people that have been
doing this for 20 years will belike shocked that something sold
(17:38):
out or made as much money as itdid.
Sometimes there's always a weirdcases like that, but you can't
always be profitable.
And like I said, sometimesthey're just really trying to
impress an agent or thatartist's team, because maybe
they really do think like a starwill blow up.
So If you stick with an artistat the beginning, like if
they're like, Oh, Live Nation orAEG, was there like helping my
(18:00):
career from the beginning, theymight be a little more loyal to
them and stick with themthroughout the times when
they're as big as like TheWeeknd or something.
So yeah it's a lot of just trialand error and, you know
sometimes they will even papershows, which I don't know if you
guys are familiar with that, butthat is, when you're just trying
to get bodies in the room.
So you just give away ticketsfor free, essentially, because
(18:22):
in the hopes of that, it's notonly to please the artists
because the room is more filled,but it also will bring more
money to the food and Bev givemore artists money for like
merchandise.
So they just hope that if itshows selling, pretty badly, at
least it's giving exposure tothe band in the longterm.
And then maybe profit more offof some of the venue costs that,
(18:43):
that may be the ticket salesitself didn't get to.
You know, sometimes it's justwhether you want to take the
risk, if the talent buyer feelslike the artist is worth taking
the risk for.
So yeah there's a lot offactors, but they're not always
profitable.
And sometimes they will want toput more towards marketing to
really get the name out thereand to really try to push more
tickets.
So yeah, there's just there's notour that's ever for sure going
(19:07):
to.
Otherwise, like you're justgoing to lose clients.
Peyton Chen (19:12):
That's totally fair.
To wrap up this section, I haveone more question that I think
would be really helpful foranyone listening.
For anyone who wants to enterlive music in a marketing
capacity, do you have any adviceabout how to navigate the
industry and how to start?
Danielle Zucchini (19:27):
Yeah, I will say you have to like full
heartedly, love this industrybecause it's going to be.
A lot of pain, it's going to bea lot of, it's going to be a lot
of struggling.
It's going to be a lot ofnetworking.
It's going to be a lot ofrejection.
It's tough.
So you have to be like, I'mwilling to fight for this.
I know I'm good enough to getthis.
Even if five other companieshave told me that I'm not.
(19:49):
So you have to take risks.
You have to believe in yourself.
But I think a lot of people getinto music cause they love
parties and they love music andit's most people love music.
But you have to like really bewilling to do grunt work.
And it's not fun.
Like all the times I was anintern, like the things that we
would have to do and I'm nottelling you to ever do something
that is wrong or something thatmakes you unhappy.
(20:13):
There is always a line and younever should go to a place where
it's uncomfortable for you.
So if let's say someone comes upto you and.
It seeing where you're thinkingabout, a part of music that
you've never really thought youhad an interest in, try it out,
unless the people are completelyterrible humans, which does
happen in the industry.
(20:34):
And you shouldn't surroundyourself around that, but just,
obviously from my background andwhat I told you, I did so many
random things just to see what Iliked, what I didn't like.
And make good impressions, workhard, be there for people just
make those relationships reallyconnect with people, keep in
touch with them through years,even if you're, I've connections
(20:55):
in so many different states fromall the events that I worked.
So don't just be like, I've hadso many interns that we had at
Live Nation that were like, Idon't want to do like this part
of the industry.
And I'm like, take a job, take ajob that like some, if someone
sees something in, you take thatopportunity, it could always
come back to what you want todo, but never just be like, Oh,
(21:15):
I'm too good for this.
Or this isn't my passion.
Sometimes the industry will takeyou in ways that you didn't
know.
And yeah just, it's going to bea hustle and you have to be
willing to hustle.
And if you don't love it thatmuch, you're probably not going
to be willing to do it.
If that I know that's like kindof morbid, but it's, it is the
reality of it.
And I think people, eitherrealize that early on and leave
(21:37):
or they're like, okay, I gottakeep busting my ass to get
there.
Sarah Ohta (21:43):
Our third and final guest is Kaleb Herbel-Eisenmann
and he is currently a creativemanager at Abstract Management.
In the past he has worked withartists such as Xavier Omär,
Still Woozy, Remi Wolf and Nao.
Since we built some contextaround touring from an artistic
and financial perspective wewanted to ask Kaleb about some
of his experiences touring withartists in North America.
Peyton Chen (22:01):
So for our audience at home it'd be really great if
you could maybe elaborate alittle bit on what is a creative
manager and what your role is inthat capacity?
Kaleb Eisenmann (22:09):
Definitely.
I think it varies really forwhoever the client is.
So I usually provide supportmore so on like a branding art
direction development sort ofside.
And for artists who are runningtours, who have label deals, et
cetera, there's a lot to managefrom accounting and business
management as well.
And so my partner that I workwith right now from a management
(22:30):
perspective, he handles almostall of that stuff.
Making sure that the taxes aredone appropriately.
Invoicing just having all oftheir finances in a row,
negotiating contract terms, thatsort of stuff.
And I'd actually been learning alot more about that.
Cause I went to school foradvertising for graphic art have
been, a musician and an artistsort of my whole life.
And so I understand that kind ofstuff.
(22:50):
So I think with certain clientsI am responsible for helping
them feel inspired, making surethat.
Songs worked on and goingthrough demos that they have in
studio sessions and picking outideas that stand out to me and
talking to them about that andbeing like, okay, how do you
feel about this one?
What are you excited about withthis idea?
What do you think it could beworked on?
Who do you think are people whowe could bring in to help with
(23:11):
the drum programming for thissong?
Are there specific engineersthat you'd like to get in the
studio with?
Could they offer something, andhelping them find a rhythm for
things like that.
And then once the music is donewhat's the look and feel of this
release going to be, do you needanimation?
Do you need photography?
Do you need a video?
What's the budget for the video?
Who could we tap for whateverwhat's the inspiration, that
kind of stuff.
(23:31):
Which is definitely superexciting and nothing is ever
really the same day twice or thesame project twice, which has
been really rewarding.
And that being said, I stillhave a lot to learn about the.
The legal side, the contracting,the financials which I've been
learning a lot lately and wouldlike to stress that is equally
as important because there's alot of people who have great
ideas and great work, but don'thave their stuff together on the
(23:53):
back end like that and end up ina lot of trouble.
Because at the end of the day,it is running a business to keep
them, housed and fed.
And a lot of times also keepingtheir families fed and in house
and stuff.
The financial aspect of it isalso very important.
Peyton Chen (24:06):
So since your role is definitely more focused on
the creative side I'd reallylike to know where in the
process your work intersectswith live music and touring so
maybe dealing with designing howthe show is going to run or
maybe you're more on thelogistics side but it'd be
really great to know where yourwork falls into place in the
context of live music andtouring.
Kaleb Eisenmann (24:23):
So certain things that I could help with
are taking the studio recordingsand sitting with artists and
like their friends who are inthe band, or, first of all,
asking, do you want to performwith the band?
Do you want to just runperformance tracks and sing?
Helping them think about whatthe live show is going to look
and feel like you had said, anddepending on how big the tour
is, that can mean set design,that can be lighting design.
(24:44):
That can mean sequencing whatthe songs are going to be.
And then even coming down toworking with someone, to arrange
the songs, I've toured withpeople who arrange all their own
stuff, but also sometimes that'sa service that people need is
what is the live version of thissong gonna sound like?
Because you can't always accessall of the sounds and stuff that
you had.
From the studio version.
(25:04):
And oftentimes you don't wantto, you want to play with the
band.
Do you want it to sounddifferent and feel bigger in the
room and have this energy thatcomes from having a band behind
you.
So I've helped with that kind ofstuff with Xavier's tour.
And I was definitelyinstrumental in helping the
branding for the tour.
And what's the looking fieldgoing to be the set design he
had this idea that he wanted itto be that's like fake radio
station that he referenced onthe album a couple of times.
(25:27):
So we had somebody design a fullbrand kit for the radio station,
so colors, typeface logo.
And then we built that out ontothe set design as well.
He had some friends recorddifferent interludes that kind
of felt like radio commercialsthat were played throughout the
show.
So just really sitting withartists leading brainstorming
sessions for what they want theshelves to look like, and then
(25:49):
taking those abstract ideas andreally figuring out logistically
how that works out is definitelysomething that I've done and
something that's exciting for meto do.
And because you have theseideas, that are super cool, but
they're all abstracts.
And it's okay, can we build thisone?
How heavy is it going to be?
Can we carry it in and out ofthe venue every single night?
What's the size of it.
And what are the size of thestages that we're working with?
Is it going to fit on everystage?
(26:11):
Who can we tap for lightingdesign?
How does lighting design goingto fit into the set design?
All that kind of stuff, whichseems very small and behind the
scenes, but at the end of theday, you know if something goes
wrong with any of that stuff, itcan be a real chore for tour
managers and ultimately for theartist.
So that's how it has intersectedlive music.
Sarah Ohta (26:29):
Yeah.
So on a similar note, I wantedto ask about.
If you could break down some ofthe mechanics of what tour looks
like when you're on the road.
You know, maybe we could talkabout Xavier Omär show in
particular.Since that's wherethe two of us got connected But
yeah I know that you were doinga lot of the day-to-day for
Xavier Omär's tour so I thinkit'd be cool to show our
listeners that perspective
Kaleb Eisenmann (26:48):
Obviously I've worked on tours from an agency
perspective, from a managementperspective and then like
actually been on the toursthemselves.
And the agency and basicallycontracts all of it and we'll do
all the routing and they'reworking with management to
figure out what's going to workbest.
And then obviously a ton ofthings that, that need to happen
to make sure that you have allof your shows confirmed and
contracted and finalized, andthen you can announce it.
(27:10):
And then on sale as a wholedifferent thing, you have to
communicate with each of thepromoters in each region or
each.
Venue sometimes to make surethat on sale is working and
ticket sales and you're gettingupdates.
And from a managementperspective, you're trying to
figure out what's selling,what's not selling what you can
do on social media to get peoplemore engaged.
That sort of stuff.
and then, okay, are we gonnahave a bus or we're gonna have a
(27:31):
Sprinter, what does the staffneed to look like for the tour?
So on Xavier's tour we had abus; Xavier is a big bus guy.
He likes having the comfort ofthe bus, you know every tour
I've gone with him, he likes tohave that was fan.
We just do it in a MercedesSprinter and there's only five
of us.
So it was super comfortable.
And we stayed at Airbnb's everynight, or hotels.
And then.
I think that actually beinghired to go on a tour is a
(27:54):
pretty like you don't put outapplications like, Hey, we're
looking for, or whatever, itjust like works through
nepotism, honestly throughreferrals And so by me working
at a venue, I knew people whowere touring and then obviously
when I got into the managementside, I was able to be hired to
go out and work on many, I wasjust like on Xavier's tour
filling in different gaps thatneeded help.
So sometimes it would be okay.
(28:14):
Load in is taking a while.
So I would, help move all of thecases in and unpack everything
and build the stage and thatsort of stuff.
But like you said, I was alsorunning point for anybody who
wanted to do interviews.
So getting that cleared byXavier, finding time, scheduling
it, asking, what are thequestions going to be?
And talking with the otherpeople on the management team
about, okay let's not talk aboutthis, let's do this instead.
(28:36):
And oftentimes people are prettyflexible on what the interview's
going to be in, asking what isthis going to be used?
How long are you going to haveit up for, that kind of stuff.
And then, we always wanted tomake sure that we had,
Photographers there too tocapture the show.
So we had our own photographeron the tour and he had certain
tasks to do, and we wereshooting video a YouTube series
that I helped edit and produceso there would be certain shot
(28:56):
lists that I would give outevery day.
I was like, okay.
Here's so Matt was the videoguy.
Matt Heifer is super talented.
So helping him with like shotlists and being like, okay, we
need a.
And Instagram recap in one, oneaspect ratio, we need a nine 16
aspect ratio for this and this,and it needs to be six to 10
seconds long, and it shouldfeature XYZ, So keeping on top
of that I would put the tourmanager to run guest list stuff
(29:19):
and make sure that guests camein.
Some people got different accessdepending on who they were.
So if it was like Xavier'sfriends or family or
collaborators, I would bemeeting them at 2:00 PM and
giving them like all accesscredentials and they could do
whatever they wanted for the dayor photographers who would be
showing up right at doors andI'd have to go meet them and
give them their pass and in thatkind of stuff.
And then during the show usuallywould just hang out and edit
(29:40):
video and relax.
And then afterwards also helpingwith.
With whatever really needed getdone again.
So it's never the same daytwice.
It's always moving and, problemsare coming up that you never
could have predicted, and youhave to be light on your feet
and flexible, I think, foranybody on the tour, that would
be true.
I think that like the schedulereally depends on having a good
(30:01):
management and tour managementteam.
Having a good tour manager canprovide a way better experience
for everybody.
Sarah Ohta (30:06):
Yeah.
What does the tour manager do?
Exactly, because I think I methim briefly, but I remember he
was so busy that entire periodof time.
Kaleb Eisenmann (30:14):
So you're responsible for, basically
everything.
Like you have to make sure that.
The venue knows what time you'recoming.
So advancing all of the shows,making sure that the venue is
prepared for the kinds ofequipment that you need to run
and use for the show, makingsure that there's stagehands
there to help you, or if there'snot stage hands, knowing that
you don't have them so that youprepare accordingly to stay on
(30:35):
schedule.
So the tour manager, it needs tokeep you on schedule every day.
They.
Work with the bus driver to tryto figure out, where the bus
driver is sleeping at, I don'tknow if it's like a union thing
or a contract thing, but theyonly have so many hours that
they're legally permitted orcontracted to drive every day.
So working with the bus driverto log those hours, make sure
the bus driver gets paid out,make sure that everybody on the
(30:56):
tour is getting paid on time andthe correct amounts, making sure
that we stay on schedule.
Running guest list, making surethat they settle the shows every
night, obviously huge, right?
Like a small thing to do, but ifyou don't settle the show you
leave and you don't get paid.
What, that's a huge mistake.
So making sure that happens,making sure that merged splits
are determined before the show.
So some venues will take 10% ofyour merge cut.
(31:18):
Just making sure thateverybody's staying informed and
that everything runs smoothly.
And yeah, there's a ton of stuffthat you have to work out, doing
all the accounting with flights.
So Xavier's lives in SanAntonio, Texas, and his band all
lives in San Antonio and touriststarted in Seattle.
So we have to get the band andall of their gear from San
Antonio to Seattle, we have tomake sure that the bus is
(31:39):
waiting for us in Seattle.
So everybody, arranging flightsfor everybody, arranging
shipping for all of the gear,making sure that we get
everything, on time at the bus.
And obviously things go wrongall the time.
So being able to solve put outfires, come up with solutions to
problems on the spot all thetime.
And it, it can make or break atour sometimes.
If the tour manager messes upand you miss soundcheck and you
(31:59):
don't get to soundcheck and thenthe artist comes out and hasn't
even really used that like soundsystem and you know the
engineer, like then they have tofigure out what the hell is
going on and it can be late andthe show can go poorly.
So tour managing is difficult.
Shout out to everybody who areseasoned tour managers out
there.
Cause they're like, hard-asspeople like have so much respect
for all of them.
All of those people for sure
Sarah Ohta (32:20):
Yeah I can imagine that sounds like such a
difficult job I remember that Iwas chilling with most of the
other people on your team so Ithink it would be good if you
could overview who exactly is onthe staff when you're traveling
on tour
Kaleb Eisenmann (32:32):
if you're touring and playing rooms that
are like a thousand to 2,500people, your staff will be a bus
driver, the tour manager, theartist, anyone who's like in the
band.
So that could be a drummer or abasis to keys player, a guitar
player.
So you have the band, you haveyour merch seller.
Sometimes you'll have a lightingperson, but you can also use
like the in-house or the venuelighting you'll have a sound
(32:53):
person.
So they're, running the wholeproduction mixture.
Everything's miked up.
Everything sounds good.
All the instruments are soundinggood, having the proper
equipment and, that can takehours to get.
And I think I'm getting offtopic here, but Nao, her like
production crew in her band wasincredible like immaculate,
they're so talented.
And they would be in the venueat 11:00 AM before the 7:00 PM
show and just sound checking andjust, running everything.
(33:16):
And they're so professional andso talented.
And having good productionpeople on the tour is huge.
So usually that's like a soundengineer.
Some artists have what's calledlike in, in-ear monitor tech so
that, have you ever seen themlike have like little, it looks
like like little ear pods in, orlittle headphones that so that
they can hear themselves andhear each other.
And so sometimes you'll haveanother person who's just
running that system And thenyou'll have a photographer
(33:38):
sometimes and a video person.
I'm trying to think if I missedanything that usually would be.
Like a a pretty full tour staff.
And I know that just, throughtalking to different people,
like somebody just took it witha personal assistant or a
stylist or a makeup and hairperson.
It's really up to you Xaviertook his wife on tour.
So she was there, helping outwith merch and just providing
good energy for everybody.
(33:59):
it's really up to the artistdepending on what they need as
well.
Sarah Ohta (34:02):
Okay.
Awesome.
So what's been the mostenjoyable part of touring, but
also what's been the leastenjoyable part because I think
it's good to keep a perspectiveof realism when we're talking
about live music because I knowat least in the photographer
community for music industry alot of people tend to have a
very idealized vision of whattouring and what working in the
music industry looks like.
Kaleb Eisenmann (34:23):
I think, obviously touring gets like very
glamorized, I feel like, butit's definitely, I've said to
people like the worst, bestthing ever it's super enjoyable
and fun obviously, and the showsare great.
And I was just telling Peyton, alot of the memories that I hold
like very close are, you know,going to Whataburger at one in
the morning after a festivalslot or after a show or, you
know, just.
Having an off day where you'rejust parked in a Walmart in New
(34:45):
Jersey and you'd take an Uberinto the city and just, you
know, having a good time withthese people that you maybe just
met last week.
And, you definitely get reallyclose with those people because
you're seeing them every minuteof every day.
it is long hours, you know?
Usually would work from likenoon to two in the morning,
sleeping in a little teeny bunkon a bus.
Yeah, it's winter time andyou're going 60 miles an hour
(35:06):
and hitting bumps and turns andthat it takes some getting used
to, you know, there's eightpeople, but living on this bus,
or I think we had 11 orsomething on the last tour.
And so it's really crowded andyou don't always know if you're
going to have a bathroom or ashower or, your diet gets pretty
bad.
Like my body would just feelreally gnarly sometimes.
Cause you know I just worked for10 hours and it's 1:00 AM and
(35:29):
I'm in, I don't know, likeSacramento and I'm like, okay,
what the hell is even open rightnow?
And so I have to go to seven 11and get whatever I can find for
food.
And then I don't eat againuntil.
1:00 PM the next day.
And I wake up and the firstthing I do is pull up in Google
maps to figure out where like,where the hell I'm even at and
what's around me and, so thatcan be, can definitely wreak a
lot on your mind and body.
(35:49):
So I think, me and the engineerand the tour manager on Xavier's
tour, we'd go and do yoga a lot.
We had a class pass kind ofthing.
So taking time to really takecare of yourself and drink a lot
of water and that kind of stuffgood.
And, definitely the people thatyou're with where you're touring
at, it has a big effect on italso.
But, you know, waking up and notknowing where you are and how
you're going to eat her salad.
It can be stressful.
Sarah Ohta (36:11):
Yeah.
Like when do you guys evensleep?
You know, I remember low keywhen I came to the Xavier Omär
show, I pulled up at aroundfive, but the show wasn't till
nine and the majority of thestaff just said, I'm gonna go
take a three-hour nap on thebus.
Kaleb Eisenmann (36:24):
And it's way easier to sleep on the bus when
it's not moving.
But usually, what would happenis we would have a call time for
when the bus is leaving the cityto go to the next place.
for example, say we're playing,so this is a common routing.
It'll do Chicago and thenDetroit.
So that's about maybe like afive-hour six hour drive.
So we'll play Chicago, loadeverything out of the venue by
1:00 AM and then the bus willleave at three or whatever.
(36:45):
The bus drivers are usuallydriving all night and sleeping
all day.
So we'll get them a hotel roomthat Uber to their hotel asleep
all day, come to the bus atthree or six in the morning or
whatever.
And then most of us would go tosleep at between one and 2:00 AM
and then you'd hear the busstart up and, you know, you wake
up and you're like, ah, allright.
And then the bus takes off andwe would be driving until about
like 11 or 1:00 PM the next day.
(37:07):
You wake up and sometimes you'restill moving.
Sometimes you wake up and you'reat the venue or I'd wake up and
I'm thinking I'm at the venue.
Cause we're not moving.
And I go out there and seewhat's going on.
And we'll just add some gasstation, in Southern Michigan or
something.
But yeah, I usually sleep fromthree in the morning until 11 or
so.
Sarah Ohta (37:23):
Oh, God, that's really chaotic.
Kaleb Eisenmann (37:25):
Yeah.
And that was the bus.
Like with Sven, on the StillWoozy tour we had Airbnbs, so
oftentimes we would, just goright to the Airbnb after the
show.
And we would sleep from likemidnight.
We usually would get up at sixor seven in the morning and we
didn't have a driver.
We just took turns driving.
So we'd get up at six or 7:00 AMand drive to the next place or.
I don't remember if there wasany times that we drove after
the show.
(37:45):
Now there definitely was wherewe'd get a couple of hours of
driving in right after the showand stop somewhere and get a
hotel or whatever, you know?
I think that like the schedulereally depends on having a good
management and tour managementteam.
Having a good tour manager canprovide a way better experience
for everybody.
Sarah Ohta (38:01):
Okay so our very last question for you is whether
you've had any crazy ormemorable moments from touring
maybe the craziest thing that'sever happened to you I think
would be kind of a fun story toend on.
Kaleb Eisenmann (38:12):
Let's see.
So Sango, who's a producerreally dope producer.
He executive produced twoprojects with Xavier.
He was touring at the same timethat we were touring and we were
actually both in San Diego onthe same night.
And so after our show, we allwent over to San Gusto and we
got to be in the DJ booth withhim during the show.
And that was a ton of fun.
(38:34):
He is somebody who I definitelyrespect and admire his work.
he did drum programming on, inmy room by Frank Ocean and has
just, contributed to a ton ofreally dope records.
And so just like being there inthe booth with him while he was
DJing and, you know, show off alittle bit and look at you and
be like, yeah.
You know, like having thatinteraction with artists is
really fun.
And you know, just like thepeople I've met for sure.
(38:54):
Everybody on the Still Woozytour was super dope and.
I still have relationships witha lot of them.
And, Remi Wolf is somebody whois absolutely taking off right
now.
She just played, Fallon her songgot placed on a global Apple
campaign.
Like just seeing that kind ofstuff happen after, you know,
she was chasing us in her.
Toyota Prius and like gettingparking tickets and shit like on
(39:15):
tour you know like just makingit through the day.
And now she's in positions whereher song is on an Apple
commercial, that's airing allover the world, you know, that's
really tight to see.
So those relationships aredefinitely really special.
And, you know, there's certainpeople who will like instigate
random ideas.
Like Hey, let's do this.
And you got nowhere to be like,you did your job for the day.
So you're kind of like cool,let's do it.
And you just get into a lot ofsuper random and hilarious
(39:38):
situations.
I think like behind the scenesthat ended up being the most fun
part.
Micah Drigo (39:43):
Thank you again to our amazing guests, Kaleb
Eisenmann, Darius Zelhka andDanielle Zucchini.
We hope you've gained takeawaysabout the world of live music
and touring in the musicindustry.
We'd also like to give a hugethank you to Jay and to our
class Music 150P (39:55):
The Changing World of Popular Music.
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