April 16, 2021 • 44 mins
Through the anecdotes and experiences of musician Mike Rocha, pianist and coder Dan Tepfer, investor Mike McGinley, and Stanford professor Chris Chafe, we delve into the impact and development of music collaboration technology during the COVID-19 pandemic. Our guests give us valuable insight into the pandemic’s lasting impact on the music industry.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay (00:06):
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into
conversations with some of themusic industry's most
established professionals.
Like all of our episodes, whatyou will hear today has been
created and curated by Stanfordstudents who are breaking their
way into the music scene.
I'm Jay LeBouef and I leadStanford University's music
industry initiatives.
Whether you're aspiring tolaunch your career in the music
industry are already a musicindustry pro, or just curious to
(00:29):
learn more.
We've got you covered.
D'Andre Jorge (00:34):
To start off this episode, we talked to the
following student musicians.
Aditya Gupta (00:38):
I'm a Aditya, I'm a music producer.
Jack Riley (00:40):
My name is Jack Riley.
I'm a producer right now.
Easha Nandyala (00:43):
Hi, my name is Easha.
I'm a 20 year old singer songwriter.
Anthony Arya (00:47):
I'm Anthony Arya I am a singer guitarist and
songwriter.
Leah Waites (00:51):
My artist's name is Gloom bug and I am Leah Waites.
D'Andre Jorge (00:59):
While talking to them, they told us about their
work...
Anthony Arya (01:01):
I've been writing songs for the last, three or
four years.
In 2018, I was on NBC's theVoice.
Jack Riley (01:08):
I'm producing a lot of hip hop for people.
Aditya Gupta (01:10):
I tend to experiment with more
sample-based and old schoolstuff.
Easha Nandyala (01:13):
In January, I released my first EP that I
wrote recorded and performedlike fully in my bedroom because
of the quarantine.
D'Andre Jorge (01:22):
Some of the positive impacts the COVID-19
pandemic has had on their art...
Leah Waites (01:26):
COVID really kind of forced me to explore art in
ways that I hadn't before.
I had so much time alone withmyself that I realized how
interested I was in music.
Jack Riley (01:39):
I love kind of being able to take a step back from
everything else be with my ownthoughts and think about,"What
do I want to make?
Why is this important to me?"without the chatter of what's
going on around me.
Easha Nandyala (01:50):
I just recorded three other songs and put that
on Spotify.
I did it in the style of apassion project, which I feel
like I haven't done in a whilesince I was really young and
just starting.
None of it would have happenedwithout quarantine because
mentally I was just in a totallydifferent place.
D'Andre Jorge (02:06):
and what new things they started doing as a
result of the pandemic.
Anthony Arya (02:09):
I wanted to, and sort of out of necessity, had to
start doing a lot of livestream.
I had done plenty of Facebooklives before and Instagram
lives.
Easha Nandyala (02:18):
I had been very consistently posting on Tik Tok.
I posted this on my Tik Tok, itblew up to like, I would say
like 300,000 views I posted onInstagram reels and that got
like 4 million views, and mystreams just skyrocketed.
Aditya Gupta (02:32):
I started, using Discord because of the pandemic.
I found a few different servers.
Some had, you know, it's up to,a hundred, 200 people, some had
like 20-30, and just get to knowthose people.
And a lot of them were willingto just hop in voice chats.
Had some people who worked indrill, some people were lo-fi,
some people were EDM, et cetera.
Leah Waites (02:47):
I release like a song in April I was like, this
is super fun.
And like, a lot of my friendslistened to the song and they
were like,"Oh cool." And it'slike, there's no really like,
downside to it.
D'Andre Jorge (03:01):
They also agreed on the benefits of showcasing
their work on social media...
Easha Nandyala (03:04):
I think the thing with Tik Tok and Instagram
is that when you have otherpeople kind of paying attention
and putting in their input, youget a lot of insight on how
other people see the music.
Anthony Arya (03:15):
In the live stream world, there's people tuning in
from all over the world, whichis, which is awesome.
And there's people from Ireland,India, um, Australia.
It's actually a lot morepersonal, I think, because one,
the sound is lot better, sopeople could hear what I was
saying in between songs andreally paying attention.
Easha Nandyala (03:33):
There is something really special about
interacting, like answeringquestions and getting to know
people that you never would haveknown ever.
Anthony Arya (03:41):
For me as a song writer telling stories about my
music and talking to people hasbeen a nice way to connect,
during the pandemic
D'Andre Jorge (03:49):
and even told us about some of the equipment they
use.
Anthony Arya (03:52):
The pandemic music scene at first, it was just
like, getting a bunch ofequipment
Leah Waites (03:57):
The first that's really important is like the
technology.
Easha Nandyala (04:00):
I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do a song,
like write it, record it in likemy Logic Pro
Anthony Arya (04:07):
I started working with OBS, and getting my mixer
set up and you know, just kindof working out the kinks, which
took a lot of testing.
Leah Waites (04:14):
Since I got an iPhone for the first time and
was able to access Garage Bandand realize all the crazy, AI
instruments and some stuff andstuff that lets you do so much,
even if you don't necessarilyhave certain musical knowledge.
It was just easy to createsongs.
(04:36):
Like I could make a whole songin like a couple hours because
it's like, I can just do thelittle notes and then do the
little recording and then boom,you have a song.
Jack Riley (04:48):
You really don't need anything.
You need a mic in audiointerface and a laptop.
You're good to go.
And part of that is like alittle scary, then it's like,
Oh, it's up to me." Like, we'relike all on this playing field
together
Leah Waites (05:02):
There is so much that you can do with just a
simple pair of Apple earbuds.
Even if I can't get into astudio, it's really nice to be
able to like, hear my own voicerecorded on, equipment that
makes it sound more professionaland stuff that I had never
experienced before.
(05:23):
The equipment is super helpful,in a lot of ways, but it's not
necessary.
D'Andre Jorge (05:29):
Finally, they explained how they've been
collaborating during thepandemic...
Jack Riley (05:32):
what we lose from not being able to be in like a
session with someone live in astudio, it's kind of replaced
with a back and forth of like,they send me a version, I send
them a version everything'swritten out, and it becomes
super, super organized.
Aditya Gupta (05:46):
Music production is actually very well-designed
in that.
you don't necessarily need to bein the same room as someone to
work with them, or even to shareideas or your opinions about
different projects.
Sending back and forth audiofiles like,"Hey, I changed this.
Now I put a filter over thissection," or, you know,"I added
a drum fill here.
Do you like it?" Right.
and it's always been like that.
And then, you know, it's veryeasy to get big feedback that
(06:07):
way
Anthony Arya (06:08):
I record with, my producer and we sort of build up
the albums that I've put out,uh, just me and him playing all
the instruments.
So my band doesn't come in withme to record.
Easha Nandyala (06:16):
Co-writing has been all zoom.
I did remote production with myproducer.
So like I would record vocalsand instrumentation on here or
we'd FaceTime and go throughmost of it.
D'Andre Jorge (06:28):
and gave us their predictions on the state of
music post COVID 19.
Leah Waites (06:31):
I think that there's like a part of playing
with people in a physical spacetogether that can never really
be recovered in virtualprogramming.
Easha Nandyala (06:44):
I prefer live performances with an audience
just because you feel the energyand there's also this sense of
time and place.
Anthony Arya (06:53):
Now we're in a place where we can do outdoor
music and I am doing a lot ofshows, and some with my band.
Aditya Gupta (07:00):
It's probably going to change the way in which
we actually end up working forsome people, even after most
people are vaccinated.
D'Andre Jorge (07:08):
Welcome to the Stanford University Drop the MIC
podcast.
We're your hosts, D'Andre Jorge,
Shreya Ravi (07:13):
and Shreya Ravi,
D'Andre Jorge (07:14):
and as just revealed by the previous
compilation you just heard, wewill be exploring how music
technology is being used tocollaborate and adapt to the
changes caused by the COVID-19pandemic.
Over the course of the next 50minutes or so, you will hear
from professional musician MikeRocha, Stanford university
professor Chris Chafe, seasonedtechnology investor Michael
McGinley, and, finally, jazzpianist and coder Dan Tepfer.
(07:35):
That being said, please sit backand enjoy.
To begin, we spoke with MikeRocha: a Los Angeles-based music
artist who's made music fornumerous movies and worked with
artists such as Chance theRapper.
Mike Rocha (07:46):
My career is centered around live and
recording as an artist,primarily a trumpet player.
I've done some producing in thepast and I've done a handful of
teaching over the years, both inmasterclass settings and at
colleges.
D'Andre Jorge (08:02):
After introducing himself, we asked Mike how music
technology has impacted hiscareer both before and during
the COVID-19 pandemic, inaddition to the changes he's
noticed with said technology.
Mike Rocha (08:12):
Yeah, a couple of things have happened.
One is that, you have theability to record with such a
small amount of equipment, whichis a really nice feature If you
have a computer, youessentially, you have a digital
audio workstation, you have adevice that can power your
microphone, and you're good togo.
(08:34):
You're able to do live andproduction right there, like
you're done.
You don't need tens of thousandsof dollars worth of gear to get
rolling anymore.
It used to be that you had toget Pro Tools, which required a
subscription, which required areally, quite a sizeable
investment to get their outportgear.
(08:54):
And it's not that user-friendly,you know, I don't use Pro Tools.
I don't necessitate somethingthat intense for what I do at
home.
More and more people are movingto Logic overall.
I'd say another thing in regardto that, that really changed my
job is the folks that you workwith.
That changed heavily veryquickly, you know, before it was
(09:16):
like, you're, you're really onlyseeing a lot of mostly trusted,
and reputable people.
And now it's like, anybody canmake music very easily and
quickly, like with the advent oflike Ableton and Logic comes on
your computer.
And now some guy in an apartmentis working with people in Belize
(09:39):
or something.
And, it's the global advent ofthe internet, the computer
programs coming together andjust human ingenuity and a
willingness to explore.
And you can come up so muchfaster now.
It's, changed the ability forthat music to get out there.
You know, before it would bemuch more localized.
(10:00):
You know, the internet haschanged a ton of that and our
social fabric, as we know it haschanged intensely because of the
internet.
So again, trickling down intomusic.
It's an ever evolving field andit's only speeding up.
You know, technology is onlymaking things go quicker and I
feel like session musicians as awhole there's less and less
(10:24):
because the work is going awaymore and more as people get more
and more capable in thecomputer, you know.
Why do I need a live drummer?
Obviously if you hire somebodywho's been playing drums for 35
years, they might have betterideas about drumming than you
do, but some people are justcheap or you can't afford it.
(10:46):
It's expensive.
Studio musicians are expensiveand that's just the reality of
it.
You're paying for all thoseyears of experience.
D'Andre Jorge (10:52):
Moving forward, we asked Rocha to explain how
the pandemic has impacted hisrecording practices and what
struggles musicians are facingat this time.
Mike Rocha (10:59):
Until more recently, home recording was part of my
life and I had built a studio athome, but, the primary, means of
conveyance for me was in person.
So yeah, that all came to ascreeching halt, once the first
(11:20):
lockdown happened and then allof a sudden, all live gigs were
canceled, and we're not goinginto the studio anymore.
I've been in the studio twotimes for live recordings since
the first lockdown.
It is happening in very smallreserved instances, but by and
large it's, stopped.
(11:42):
Immediately things shifted tohome recording, but keep in mind
that production largely alsohalted for major studios, both
in the filming capacity andcreation, you know, writers,
aren't getting together in roomsand, it's just become very
difficult for production ingeneral.
(12:02):
So music is going to feel thatin a trickle-down sense, because
music generally gets added on tofilm, towards the end of the
process.
So, um we ended up feeling it,you know, no matter what in a
big way as everyone kind offeels it.
But, I've done a couple movies,from home currently and, uh,
(12:24):
it's okay.
I feel fine recording at home.
You know, I've done a lot of it.
Every musician is going throughsomething different right now,
in regards to what we'reexperiencing and having things
taken away from you, the abilityto like, do what you've been
doing.
And so, some people areremaining more positive than
others.
You know, some people are reallyfeeling the effects and, uh,
(12:47):
it's different for everyone.
D'Andre Jorge (12:49):
Continuing on, we then asked Rocha about the
impact COVID-19 has had onstudio work and what the current
state of the music industrylooks like.
Mike Rocha (12:56):
As far as studio work, I think that there is a
lot of damage being done rightnow, to be honest.
I think it's really pushed thegas pedal down towards the, uh,
the shrinking, just speeding itup You know, we, contractors and
musicians, were doing a lot offighting and advocating for
(13:16):
bringing work back to LA andgaining ground.
You know, we were really doing alot, like I did a, um, I've done
a lot of work for HBO.
Like I did that show Euphoria.
They wanted to, they wanted topush you forward to get to
Nashville, you know?
And so in LA we agreed to do,uh, the first season, uh,
non-union.
(13:37):
And it's been working, you know,we've been able to really
showcase the expertise of thestudio musician and how much
that truly does matter.
You know, you do, if you want tooutsource an orchestra and you
can take it to a foreigncountry, you know, that's where
the musicians will work for verylittle but the reality is that
(13:58):
the finished product is, uh,it's a pale comparison to what
you're going to get in LA ofhaving not only the caliber of
musician, but also the caliberof the studio engineer, the
equipment, the microphones, therooms, the post-production
engineers, you know, everything.
So, like I said, we were havinggood success, really good
success at moving work that hadleft LA and bringing it back.
(14:22):
So we were, we were gaining, wewere gaining we're gaining and
now it's like, dude, you know,it's, it's, it's uh, it's bad.
I mean, I don't know.
I honestly don't know anybodywho's like working even in a
similar-ish capacity.
(14:43):
It's quiet.
It's quiet.
And to go from where it was tothis, it's eyeopening, you know,
and again, me being a realist,like I like to read the writing
on the wall, or at least what Ithink is the writing on the
wall.
And it's like, wow.
I went from working constantlyto, I'm not doing hardly
anything in music.
(15:03):
You know, hardly anything that'sscary.
And, and then I look up to thepeople that are 25, 30 years
older than me, that are reallyon top of the pile, as far as
the career musicians and they'renot working, it's like, man, if
they're not working, who'sworking?
I think that music itself willalways be alive and well, it's
(15:28):
just evolving.
Studio recording, I think, isIt's maybe going to be more of
like a blip in history, where itwas once this really great art
form that people gave themselvesto, and these musicians are
incredible.
You know, they are unbelievable.
The, the levels that they'veachieved in sight reading and
(15:49):
flexibility.
My God, like it's really amasterful thing.
It's sad to see it go this way,because people will become that
anymore.
The whole thing about likepushing yourself in that
direction.
Like me, I'm intentionallyclassical trained and I'm
intensely jazz trained, and theneverything that experience
(16:11):
brings in, too.
That's going to just like, Idon't know, where's it going to
go?
Like, if there's no demand forit.
Right?
You think that even with theability to record at home,
everybody has the equipment andthe software and the, this and
the, that.
And it's like, where are thecalls?
You know, I'm not getting hit upto do hardly anything.
(16:33):
Nothing to pay my bills, youknow, not enough money to even
get that far.
D'Andre Jorge (16:39):
Finally we asked Rosha about the return of live
music, post COVID-19 and histhoughts on the lasting impact
of the pandemic.
Mike Rocha (16:45):
I think live music will, will resurface stronger,
than studio recording will, justsimply because people want to
play.
There's that, that visceralconnection that you get, you
know, when you're out there andyou're putting yourself out
there in the moment and giving alive performance and getting
energy back from your audience.
I think that's, that's justsomething that will never, ever
(17:06):
go away, no matter what.
People do it for free, you know.
They'll just have a day job andplay for fun, you know, and
that's their thing.
And, studio recordings, like allI did was music, you know, I
didn't have something to fallback on or, have a backbone of
income, you know, where it was,I'm recording and I'm
(17:27):
performing.
That's all I was doing.
So it's just, it's a differentapproach for someone like me.
And, I do think live is going tocome back.
It's already back look at Texas,you know, like they, they're
doing comedy clubs.
They're back, you know, it's allkinds of stuff is already, uh,
going, uh, at the willingnessof, of getting COVID.
(17:48):
They're getting sick.
They're just getting out there.
I guess they just don't, uh, Idon't know, they I ain't scared
of anything, but a live musichas always persevered.
I really do associate like withbeing a realist and[the] music
industry was already hurting.
It's been hurting for a lot ofyears since well, before, even
(18:11):
the 1980s, uh, it's beenshrinking, uh, on a whole.
In LA there's this thing calledthe Nifty One-Fifty.
The Nifty One-Fifty are the 150people that are basically the
chosen ones that get to do themajority of the studio work.
(18:31):
150 people that really handleall that.
And I know that, of course it'snot the entire, the entirety of
the people involved.
Like a lot of stuff getsoutsourced.
So, you know, if you're in theSan Francisco symphony, you're
going to see a lot of work forvideo games.
London Philharmonic does almostprimarily all the Disney stuff.
(18:52):
Um, you know, work is movingaround the world now at this
point.
Uh, and so that's been going onbefore the pandemic.
But, uh, I, I think that, um,COVID is going to have, um, a
lasting effect.
I think that the effects of thepandemic are going to last in
(19:13):
music, as long as people canremember the pandemic.
Like until you can truly forgetabout it, like it doesn't occur
to you anymore.
I'm going to call a 90 personorchestra session.
Right.
And it doesn't cross your mindthat,"how am I going to get 90
(19:34):
people at Fox Studios with, andI need to have everyone 12 feet
apart or whatever," you know.
It's like, until you can getover that mental reaction, then
I think there's, there's goingto be an effect and what, what
we're going to experience andwhat we already are experiencing
is less people getting hired,because you need to get this
(19:54):
space between everybody and withbrass players, and wind
instrumentalists in general,it's 12 feet.
It's not six feet, it's 12.
So to have a trumpet section,you're talking about 48 feet
just between them.
That's a big deal studiosgenerally, aren't that huge, and
the big ones have been goingunder because the necessity for
(20:15):
large recording stages has beenshrinking for again, decades.
So, that's part of my unpopularopinion is that I think that
it's not gonna come raging backand you know, like,"Oh, you
know, once we're out of this,there's going to be a ton of
production." And I'm not sayingthat that is a possible, and it
can't happen.
(20:36):
It could happen.
D'Andre Jorge (20:39):
We now transition to a short interview with
Michael McGinley, a technologyinvestor who used to travel with
some of the biggest musical actssuch as Michael Jackson.
Now an advisor for the streamingservice Napster.
We asked McGinley for histhoughts on technology and the
impact it's had on music.
Mike McGinley (20:53):
Good question.
I spent most of my career live.
Okay.
And the best sounding musicrecorded is when you have real
musicians playing.
That natural feel that you'recapturing in the studio.
You can't get that off acomputer having said that.
(21:14):
Can you grade something withGarage Band in your home for
kids that want to get started?
Cause yeah, back when I was onthe road, it cost$2 million to
record a record.
Big barrier.
Okay.
The fact that you cancommunicate and record remotely
(21:34):
or with connect with friends,that's a big deal, because it
enables you to do a lot morethings that you normally
couldn't do, or that would beexpensive to do.
I mean, right now with COVID,you couldn't be going to school
without all the technology.
10 years ago, I'm not sure theinternet would have been robust
enough and everybody's home todo Zoom calls all day.
(21:55):
Probably not.
So I think all that's good.
A lot of, lot of music is acollaboration with multiple
people.
So I think that's a big deal.
I don't know if it's going tomake music better.
The fact that they're workingmore together might make it
better, to have an opportunityto work more together.
I'm not trying to beanti-technology.
(22:15):
The technology has definitelymade it easier to record and be
creative.
I just, I don't think the musicis better with more technology.
Shreya Ravi (22:25):
Next we spoke with Stanford university professor
Chris Chafe, who has beendeveloping JackTrip, a tool to
allow musicians to collaborateremotely.
We spoke to him about JackTripand how he got started in music
technology.
Chris Chafe (22:37):
so JackTrip is a multi machine Internet audio
transport system.
So you can have JackTrip audioflowing between many machines
with many channels at verylittle latency.
Background personal side ofthings is family environment
that led me into the world ofmusic and science at a really
(23:01):
young age.
I think it was just, there inthe air with my parents both
musicians, both scienceteachers.
And, I guess, the rest is prettypredictable.
The result was, early love ofthe world of the music that I
was playing, but also I thinksound in general, and so I'm
really lucky.
(23:21):
I found a career, which combinesmy passions.
Beautifully supported at anearly age by teachers who let me
range far and wide.
At the same time with fantasticmentors on the engineering and
science side- I think back tothe fifth, sixth grade for that.
You have people in your lifethat just shaped things, right?
And because of their generosity,boom, that continued right up
(23:44):
through college and then intograduate school, having had
fantastic opportunities andmentors digital computing came
along just at the point where Iwas probably really receptive to
this you know.
And, got fascinated by computerprogramming and, the fact that I
could tie computer programminginto experimenting with sound
(24:07):
was also kinda early on a uniquething.
And I came to Stanford to workwith, kind of like, the
first-generation folks that wereexperimenting, you know.
Digital computers that could dothat kind of stuff- that was
really rare.
The other part of this luck ispeople who have the same passion
and being able to be around themand have a culture evolve,
(24:27):
right.
And that happened at Stanford,too.
So I waltzed into a scene andthat is the same scene today.
At the computer music center, wehave over 350 participants and
they're all great peoplebringing all this individuality
and, you know, diverse approachSo we have a kind of scene
that's more fun every day.
(24:49):
Here we are in the pandemic.
We're often, separate littlesatellite computer music
centers.
I'm in my home and we're veryconnected.
One of the ways we're connectedis, fortuitously, that home
networking got to this levelwhere we can support digital
audio flowing from home to otherhome with enough reliability
(25:11):
that it actually works reallywell.
But, you know, a half dozenyears ago when I moved into the
place I'm in now, I couldn't doit.
I could not have a flow ofuncompressed audio to Stanford
and back without a whole lot ofhiccups in it.
It sounded horrible.
Along comes lockdown in March.
Try it again.
I'm getting six channelsperfectly.
(25:31):
Such a wonderful moment, youknow, because I'm not alone.
There's just a really new kindof medium there, you know.
Eventually we would havediscovered it, but we were
brought into this we were ledinto this by necessity.
Probably why we're having thisinterview today, because it's
been going really well.
Shreya Ravi (25:49):
Along with Chafe, we also talked to Dan Tepfer, a
pianist, composer, and coder whohas been utilizing JackTrip
during the pandemic.
Dan Tepfer (25:56):
My name is Dan and I'm a pianist, composer, and
coder.
I always had these, twointerests.
These two worlds, kind of,surrounding me from a very young
age- the world of science andthe world of art.
I gravitated towards jazz verynaturally at an early age.
I loved improvisation, justalways really spoke to me in the
(26:19):
sense of having agency and beingable to just be yourself in
music in the moment.
That always felt amazing to me.
But at the same time, I also gotreally passionate about physics.
And so for my undergrad, Iactually studied astrophysics,
uh, and still, did a lot ofmusic on the side.
I was constantly playing gigs.
And then, for my masters, I wentto the new England conservatory
(26:43):
and did a masters in jazz pianoperformance.
I'd been coding, just for funall through my teens, but I just
kind of put it aside in mytwenties, focused like a hundred
percent on just being a jazzmusician And, for kind of random
reasons like needing to practicea certain musical exercise, I
started coding again and startedintegrating programming into my
(27:05):
musical practice.
I started working with theYamaha Disklavier which is this
fully acoustic piano that thatcan act as a player piano you
can send it commands and it willplay.
I've written these algorithmsthat improvise with me in real
time and also generate a visualrepresentation of the music as
it's being created.
That's been really exciting forme.
So, that brings us to like rightbefore the pandemic, and, I just
(27:31):
totally by chance, because afriend of mine asked me if it
might be possible to playreal-time music between Hawaii
and New York, I discovered Jacktrip.
I didn't know anything aboutrealtime music making over the
internet before the pandemic andjust immediately dove deeply
into it and haven't looked back.
(27:51):
I've been doing a ton of itthrough the entire pandemic.
And also I think I'm one of theonly people doing this, but I've
been doing regular ticketed livestreams where I actually sell
tickets to these live.
duo concerts, throughout thepandemic with, uh, you know,
really great artists likeChristian McBride, Cécile
McLorin Salvant, Fred Hersch,um, Melissa Aldana, um, et
(28:16):
cetera.
And that's been hugely importantto me through the pandemic.
Shreya Ravi (28:19):
To get some more insight on using JackTrip.
We asked both Chafe and Tepferabout their experiences with the
app and how latency impacts theprocess.
Chris Chafe (28:27):
When it's up and running and you connect with
somebody else and you can kindof get a sense of the way audio
should be then it's, prettyrewarding.
I got to say, you know, there'sa lot of those kind of stunned
moments where, you know, you,you were so used to.
Communicating over a distancewith a not so good audio sound
(28:48):
and that once you get a goodaudio sound, it's a contrast,
right?
The next stage is like you startplaying with somebody and for so
many of us that haven't beenable to play with somebody for
nine months now, that's a huge,huge, moment.
It's really fun to be there whenit happens.
Dan Tepfer (29:09):
And so then the other thing, the other big
development has been my use ofJackTrip, which also, I didn't
know anything about before thepandemic and, as a jazz
improviser, The ability to playto really be improvising with
another musician to be in thatconversation is just like almost
essential to my wellbeing, Iwould say.
(29:31):
It was about six weeks into thepandemic that I did JackTrip for
the first time with my friendJorge Roeder, who's a phenomenal
jazz bassist.
And we were like almost cryingwhen it first happened because
we hadn't played with anotherhuman than in six weeks.
And that's a really long timefor us.
Like we're doing this on a dailybasis.
(29:51):
If you were used to being huggedby somebody you love every day
and it just disappeared for sixweeks When you finally got that
hug back you'd be like"Oh thankGod!", you know?
I put a lot of work into gettingJackTrip working in a very
powerful way where you literallyfeel like you can make very
intricately rhythmic music withanother person, as long as
(30:14):
they're relatively nearby.
And so through the pandemic,I've been able to have these
meaningful musical exchangeswith great musicians and, um,
That's been amazing.
In terms of creative process ata kind of a meta level, I would
say it's not very different inthe sense that at the end of the
(30:34):
day, I've worked very hard mywhole life to, to be a competent
jazz musician.
And what that means is, I careabout.
Playing together in rhythm,making good melodies,
improvising harmonic pathwaystogether.
So all of these things remainfront and center the like
essential values of music that Icare about and ultimately what
(30:56):
I'm doing is using JackTrip as away to still be able to deal
with music in this serious waythat I've come to value so much.
So in other words, the creativeprocess remains the same, but I
have noticed some importantdifferences.
For example, in order to get thelatency, so low that we're
(31:16):
really able to play.
For example, with like ChristianMcBride, you know, we were
playing.
Like Donna Lee about that fastor actually even faster.
So, something that fast, I mean,your latency has to be extremely
low.
Just as a comparison, it takessound one millisecond to travel
(31:41):
one foot in air, approximately.
So in other words, if you have20 millisecond latency, that's
like playing with someone who's20 feet away from you and 20
feet away from you makes itpretty tough to play those kinds
of rhythms.
Like you're going to feel thatlatency.
So, what we are actually hearingin our headphones when we're
doing these, these duos, in manycases is pretty choppy.
(32:04):
It's got noise in it.
Because, you know, we're prettyexperienced musicians, we can
kind of hear through that.
So, so a lot of the time we'relistening through a lot of
noise, and what that means is itreally has an effect on the
music.
What it means is that you haveto play with great clarity.
For example, I've done threetwo-piano concerts and two-piano
(32:26):
improvisation is a particularlychallenging thing because you're
constantly kind of stepping oneach other's toes.
You're playing the sameinstrument.
It sounds the same.
You're in the same range, unlessyou're very careful to avoid
each other's range.
So it's tough and you have to belistening really closely.
And when you play in a concerttype situation, you can tend to
like step on each other's toesquite a bit.
(32:47):
And what I've found is doing itwith JackTrip, because of the
limitations of what you'rehearing, you just naturally play
very purposeful, very clear.
You simplify, you put lessdensity into your harmonic
textures, and ultimately thoseare good things.
(33:09):
Those are things that leadtowards a more communicative
and, I would say, more powerfulmusic.
So that's been a reallyinteresting side effect of, of
using JackTrip.
Chris Chafe (33:22):
The more traditional uses of, of this is
really replacing people's needto be in the same room playing
music together.
So, typically that's a distancethat, for classical or jazz or
folk, it's kind of like within600 miles or a thousand
kilometers.
So, up and down California, itkind of works.
(33:44):
There's a lot of music that'sless latency sensitive.
I mean, it's music that youreally want to hear really,
really well what the other folksare doing, but maybe you don't
care about playing kind of inthe groove and a fast tempo.
Once you relax that latencyconstraint, then you can start
to stretch, right?
So there's a lot of music beingplayed, very long haul between
(34:08):
continents.
I find that to be like almost afrontier, because you're
connecting with people you'venever actually been physically
with- might be new acquaintancesentirely musically speaking- and
you start making music.
And this goes back way pre COVIDbecause this really was where
Jack trip got its inception forthese more, distant types of
(34:31):
concerts and jams.
To play with somebody thatyou've never met who's on
another continent, way differenttime zone.
You start making the musictogether and you discover that
you're really on a wavelengthtogether.
You get into that kind offrontier.
You make music that you haven'texperienced before and you make
wonderful connections with othermusicians that way.
(34:53):
And it's musical connection.
Shreya Ravi (34:56):
We also asked Tepfer about some of the work
he's done during the pandemic.
Dan Tepfer (34:59):
One of the things I've done during the pandemic
is, I've been doing a lot ofduets right.
And even trios with otherpeople.
But some of these people are toofar away.
For example, uh, I have a goodfriend who is a brilliant singer
in Melbourne Australia and, youknow, that's massive latency.
There's no way that even withJack chip, you're going to be
able to really play in rhythmtogether.
Right.
(35:20):
And so I was thinking about whatcan we do together?
That's not going to be justlike, The stupid thing where
like I keep playing the chordsof a song and she sings over
them and I'm hearing her liketwo seconds later, you know,
what can I do that is moremeaningful and embraces the, the
latency that's there.
I came up with this idea that Imade a webpage with a piano on
(35:45):
it, and she can just click anote on the, on this piano.
And that note will starttrembling on my piano here.
So the note will start tremblingand, and then if she presses
another note, that note willalso start trembling so I'm
enabling my duet partner tocontrol my piano here through a
(36:05):
webpage.
she can lay down some notes thatplay and, and these are like,
they're not rhythmic, right?
It's just like kind of a bed ofsound, a pad.
And so then the game is, it's animprovisation game.
She'll start singing, she'llimprovise with it.
She'll make up a melody, a, youknow, makeup ideas.
Um, and then she can push abutton that just says transform.
(36:30):
And it will move these notes ina certain way.
And so she doesn't have controlover that.
It's just transform.
And then it's like this kind ofprofound and, um, hearing game
where the, the notes of change.
How do you adapt to that?
And how do you direct yourimprovisation?
So what it is is it's anevolving set of constraints and
(36:53):
that's what we like asimprovisers.
You have to have somebody topush against you.
You have to have something tobounce off of.
So that's not only does it makesense in the new context, but
maybe it also connects to whatyou were doing before.
So this is a really fun gamethat involves, you know,
algorithms and coding, and alsoresponds to the need for
something that doesn't requirelow latency.
(37:14):
There's something else that Idid during the pandemic that,
uh, I would not have doneotherwise.
And that, that I thought waspretty cool.
Uh, there's a presenter inJapan, um, who invited me to do
a live stream of naturalmachines to his Japanese
audience and in Japan, in hisregion of Japan, in Kyushu, the
(37:37):
COVID numbers are low enoughthat they have public
performances.
Um, people wear masks, butthey're all doing live
performances in a room.
Um, and, and so not only did hewant to do a live stream of
natural machines, but he asked,is there any way that we could
have a Disklavier there thatwould play what you're playing
(38:04):
so that we'd be hearing acousticsound.
So we got in touch with Yamaha,Japan, and it turns out that it
was possible to bring aDisklavier concert piano to the
venue that they did it in a, ina science museum actually.
In the atrium of the sciencemuseum.
So it was possible to bring thispiano.
And then, the question was, canI make this happen?
(38:24):
And I, um, I actually ended upwriting it all in JavaScript.
Uh, I made it basically, allthey need to do is open a
webpage on their end, which isactually being hosted on my
computer here as, as acting as aserver.
And that web page connects totheir local MIDI device, which
in this case is the Disklavierpiano.
And then every time I playsomething here, not only when I
(38:47):
play something, but when thecomputer plays something, that's
being sent to Japan, and also Ihad to build a buffering system
because with that kind ofdistance, you get very different
lag times in data transmission.
So that gets sent to this otherpiano and it gets buffered and
then they can adjust the latencythere so that it matches the
(39:10):
stream, the visuals of the livestream that I'm doing, which I
was doing just through it,through a YouTube unlisted
stream.
And it actually worked really,really well.
So, so basically the audiencewas treated to a live stream
where I am performing live.
And all the sound is coming inreal time, uh, from an acoustic
piano.
(39:31):
Basically, it's like, I'mplaying the piano over there.
I was really excited that wepulled it off.
Shreya Ravi (39:38):
Capping off the conversation, we asked Chafe
about the future of JackTrip andits development.
Chris Chafe (39:43):
I think the more practical, immediate things that
we're doing today that I thinkwill endure have to do with,
probably not replacing the factthat it's really enjoyable to
play music together physicallyand be in the same space, but
some of the preparation thatgoes into that is sometimes a
little cumbersome.
In a group that might be made ofdifferent sections, you know,
(40:05):
like a large orchestra or bigband there's always time spent
like working on subsections ofthe ensemble.
It's kind of a hassle to formthose sectional rehearsals.
This is like a really, reallyobvious benefit to be able to
like, prepare the rhythm sectionbefore the main rehearsal where
(40:25):
everybody, drives to the hall.
And even with a coach and maybethe coach is on the other side
of the country.
That's going to be doablebecause we're already doing it
now.
The more far-fetched stuffthough is, you start to kind of
take some of what we're talkingabout and put it into a more
kind of XR environment where,you're inhabiting a space with
(40:47):
other folks.
There's a sense of presence thatyou want to build.
That's, you know, gonna have alot of components.
One of them is audio.
you know, first of all, make akind of, audio experience with
some veracity so that it reallyfeels like a space an
illusionary space that has wallsand angles other inhabitants.
The next thing is kind of fromthe artistic point of view,
(41:10):
what's the synthetic versionthat isn't really reproducing
reality, but create somethingvery new that we haven't
experienced before.
That takes us all the way intocomputer music or computer art.
There's always been kind of likethis benchmark of like, we're
going to reproduce reality.
you know, there's been researchtrying to create a really good
(41:30):
synthesis of the violin and getthe rich sound make it, just be
perfect.
And, that's a benchmark.
That's one aspect of computermusic and acoustics.
The other side is, well, we knowsomething about that, but you
know, now that it's in this formof a model, we can manipulate
that model and we can createthings that are never before
(41:54):
heard.
And also might be verytantalizing, might be very
musical give new sonicpossibilities to the artists.
I see that in the XR worldhappening, I mean, it already
is.
One thing that I've been puttingout there is when we do JackTrip
sessions with the musicdepartment we actually have
servers running that take theplace of rooms.
I mean, that's their function.
(42:15):
And so from my house, I connectto a room that's actually just a
computer server and there'sother people connecting in and
we hear each other.
And to some extent, we try toget a little bit of a room, feel
like a acoustic with some reverband spatialization, but what
about taking that a whole otherlevel, right?
(42:37):
You know, what about a roomthat's full of alien harps?
Strings that are excited by windblowing through.
Wouldn't you like to be in aroom for like that and play your
instrument for a little while?
I mean, just to find out.
You know.
Shreya Ravi (42:52):
As COVID-19 has ushered in a world of limited
physical interaction, livemusicians who rely on
collaboration have faced aunique challenge in continuing
to create.
Innovative music technologieslike JackTrip pave the way for
new forms of remote musiccollaboration that have
connected musicians during thepandemic.
In an increasingly digitalatmosphere, they allow us to
reimagine how music can beperformed and experienced.
(43:15):
We want to give a huge thanks toChris Chafe, Mike Rocha, Michael
McGinley, and Dan Tepfer, forproviding their thoughts,
opinions, and experiences forthis episode.
If you would like to hear someof Tepfer's music, be sure to
check out his YouTube channel orwebsite at dantepfer.com.
Likewise, you can find some ofRocha's work on his own website
at mikerochamusic.com.
If you'd like to try JackTripout for yourself, check out the
(43:37):
JackTrip Foundation atjacktrip.org.
D'Andre and I co-produced thispodcast along with Ryan Wixen
and Nathan Sariowan.
Ryan and Nathan also producedthe music.
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to the Drop the MIC podcast where we'll dive into
conversations with some of themusic industry's most
established professionals.
Like all of our episodes, whatyou will hear today has been
created and curated by Stanfordstudents who are breaking their
way into the music scene.
I'm Jay LeBouef and I leadStanford University's music
industry initiatives.
Whether you're aspiring tolaunch your career in the music
industry are already a musicindustry pro, or just curious to
(00:29):
learn more.
We've got you covered.
D'Andre Jorge (00:34):
To start off this episode, we talked to the
following student musicians.
Aditya Gupta (00:38):
I'm a Aditya, I'm a music producer.
Jack Riley (00:40):
My name is Jack Riley.
I'm a producer right now.
Easha Nandyala (00:43):
Hi, my name is Easha.
I'm a 20 year old singer songwriter.
Anthony Arya (00:47):
I'm Anthony Arya I am a singer guitarist and
songwriter.
Leah Waites (00:51):
My artist's name is Gloom bug and I am Leah Waites.
D'Andre Jorge (00:59):
While talking to them, they told us about their
work...
Anthony Arya (01:01):
I've been writing songs for the last, three or
four years.
In 2018, I was on NBC's theVoice.
Jack Riley (01:08):
I'm producing a lot of hip hop for people.
Aditya Gupta (01:10):
I tend to experiment with more
sample-based and old schoolstuff.
Easha Nandyala (01:13):
In January, I released my first EP that I
wrote recorded and performedlike fully in my bedroom because
of the quarantine.
D'Andre Jorge (01:22):
Some of the positive impacts the COVID-19
pandemic has had on their art...
Leah Waites (01:26):
COVID really kind of forced me to explore art in
ways that I hadn't before.
I had so much time alone withmyself that I realized how
interested I was in music.
Jack Riley (01:39):
I love kind of being able to take a step back from
everything else be with my ownthoughts and think about,"What
do I want to make?
Why is this important to me?"without the chatter of what's
going on around me.
Easha Nandyala (01:50):
I just recorded three other songs and put that
on Spotify.
I did it in the style of apassion project, which I feel
like I haven't done in a whilesince I was really young and
just starting.
None of it would have happenedwithout quarantine because
mentally I was just in a totallydifferent place.
D'Andre Jorge (02:06):
and what new things they started doing as a
result of the pandemic.
Anthony Arya (02:09):
I wanted to, and sort of out of necessity, had to
start doing a lot of livestream.
I had done plenty of Facebooklives before and Instagram
lives.
Easha Nandyala (02:18):
I had been very consistently posting on Tik Tok.
I posted this on my Tik Tok, itblew up to like, I would say
like 300,000 views I posted onInstagram reels and that got
like 4 million views, and mystreams just skyrocketed.
Aditya Gupta (02:32):
I started, using Discord because of the pandemic.
I found a few different servers.
Some had, you know, it's up to,a hundred, 200 people, some had
like 20-30, and just get to knowthose people.
And a lot of them were willingto just hop in voice chats.
Had some people who worked indrill, some people were lo-fi,
some people were EDM, et cetera.
Leah Waites (02:47):
I release like a song in April I was like, this
is super fun.
And like, a lot of my friendslistened to the song and they
were like,"Oh cool." And it'slike, there's no really like,
downside to it.
D'Andre Jorge (03:01):
They also agreed on the benefits of showcasing
their work on social media...
Easha Nandyala (03:04):
I think the thing with Tik Tok and Instagram
is that when you have otherpeople kind of paying attention
and putting in their input, youget a lot of insight on how
other people see the music.
Anthony Arya (03:15):
In the live stream world, there's people tuning in
from all over the world, whichis, which is awesome.
And there's people from Ireland,India, um, Australia.
It's actually a lot morepersonal, I think, because one,
the sound is lot better, sopeople could hear what I was
saying in between songs andreally paying attention.
Easha Nandyala (03:33):
There is something really special about
interacting, like answeringquestions and getting to know
people that you never would haveknown ever.
Anthony Arya (03:41):
For me as a song writer telling stories about my
music and talking to people hasbeen a nice way to connect,
during the pandemic
D'Andre Jorge (03:49):
and even told us about some of the equipment they
use.
Anthony Arya (03:52):
The pandemic music scene at first, it was just
like, getting a bunch ofequipment
Leah Waites (03:57):
The first that's really important is like the
technology.
Easha Nandyala (04:00):
I was like, okay, I'm just gonna do a song,
like write it, record it in likemy Logic Pro
Anthony Arya (04:07):
I started working with OBS, and getting my mixer
set up and you know, just kindof working out the kinks, which
took a lot of testing.
Leah Waites (04:14):
Since I got an iPhone for the first time and
was able to access Garage Bandand realize all the crazy, AI
instruments and some stuff andstuff that lets you do so much,
even if you don't necessarilyhave certain musical knowledge.
It was just easy to createsongs.
(04:36):
Like I could make a whole songin like a couple hours because
it's like, I can just do thelittle notes and then do the
little recording and then boom,you have a song.
Jack Riley (04:48):
You really don't need anything.
You need a mic in audiointerface and a laptop.
You're good to go.
And part of that is like alittle scary, then it's like,
Oh, it's up to me." Like, we'relike all on this playing field
together
Leah Waites (05:02):
There is so much that you can do with just a
simple pair of Apple earbuds.
Even if I can't get into astudio, it's really nice to be
able to like, hear my own voicerecorded on, equipment that
makes it sound more professionaland stuff that I had never
experienced before.
(05:23):
The equipment is super helpful,in a lot of ways, but it's not
necessary.
D'Andre Jorge (05:29):
Finally, they explained how they've been
collaborating during thepandemic...
Jack Riley (05:32):
what we lose from not being able to be in like a
session with someone live in astudio, it's kind of replaced
with a back and forth of like,they send me a version, I send
them a version everything'swritten out, and it becomes
super, super organized.
Aditya Gupta (05:46):
Music production is actually very well-designed
in that.
you don't necessarily need to bein the same room as someone to
work with them, or even to shareideas or your opinions about
different projects.
Sending back and forth audiofiles like,"Hey, I changed this.
Now I put a filter over thissection," or, you know,"I added
a drum fill here.
Do you like it?" Right.
and it's always been like that.
And then, you know, it's veryeasy to get big feedback that
(06:07):
way
Anthony Arya (06:08):
I record with, my producer and we sort of build up
the albums that I've put out,uh, just me and him playing all
the instruments.
So my band doesn't come in withme to record.
Easha Nandyala (06:16):
Co-writing has been all zoom.
I did remote production with myproducer.
So like I would record vocalsand instrumentation on here or
we'd FaceTime and go throughmost of it.
D'Andre Jorge (06:28):
and gave us their predictions on the state of
music post COVID 19.
Leah Waites (06:31):
I think that there's like a part of playing
with people in a physical spacetogether that can never really
be recovered in virtualprogramming.
Easha Nandyala (06:44):
I prefer live performances with an audience
just because you feel the energyand there's also this sense of
time and place.
Anthony Arya (06:53):
Now we're in a place where we can do outdoor
music and I am doing a lot ofshows, and some with my band.
Aditya Gupta (07:00):
It's probably going to change the way in which
we actually end up working forsome people, even after most
people are vaccinated.
D'Andre Jorge (07:08):
Welcome to the Stanford University Drop the MIC
podcast.
We're your hosts, D'Andre Jorge,
Shreya Ravi (07:13):
and Shreya Ravi,
D'Andre Jorge (07:14):
and as just revealed by the previous
compilation you just heard, wewill be exploring how music
technology is being used tocollaborate and adapt to the
changes caused by the COVID-19pandemic.
Over the course of the next 50minutes or so, you will hear
from professional musician MikeRocha, Stanford university
professor Chris Chafe, seasonedtechnology investor Michael
McGinley, and, finally, jazzpianist and coder Dan Tepfer.
(07:35):
That being said, please sit backand enjoy.
To begin, we spoke with MikeRocha: a Los Angeles-based music
artist who's made music fornumerous movies and worked with
artists such as Chance theRapper.
Mike Rocha (07:46):
My career is centered around live and
recording as an artist,primarily a trumpet player.
I've done some producing in thepast and I've done a handful of
teaching over the years, both inmasterclass settings and at
colleges.
D'Andre Jorge (08:02):
After introducing himself, we asked Mike how music
technology has impacted hiscareer both before and during
the COVID-19 pandemic, inaddition to the changes he's
noticed with said technology.
Mike Rocha (08:12):
Yeah, a couple of things have happened.
One is that, you have theability to record with such a
small amount of equipment, whichis a really nice feature If you
have a computer, youessentially, you have a digital
audio workstation, you have adevice that can power your
microphone, and you're good togo.
(08:34):
You're able to do live andproduction right there, like
you're done.
You don't need tens of thousandsof dollars worth of gear to get
rolling anymore.
It used to be that you had toget Pro Tools, which required a
subscription, which required areally, quite a sizeable
investment to get their outportgear.
(08:54):
And it's not that user-friendly,you know, I don't use Pro Tools.
I don't necessitate somethingthat intense for what I do at
home.
More and more people are movingto Logic overall.
I'd say another thing in regardto that, that really changed my
job is the folks that you workwith.
That changed heavily veryquickly, you know, before it was
(09:16):
like, you're, you're really onlyseeing a lot of mostly trusted,
and reputable people.
And now it's like, anybody canmake music very easily and
quickly, like with the advent oflike Ableton and Logic comes on
your computer.
And now some guy in an apartmentis working with people in Belize
(09:39):
or something.
And, it's the global advent ofthe internet, the computer
programs coming together andjust human ingenuity and a
willingness to explore.
And you can come up so muchfaster now.
It's, changed the ability forthat music to get out there.
You know, before it would bemuch more localized.
(10:00):
You know, the internet haschanged a ton of that and our
social fabric, as we know it haschanged intensely because of the
internet.
So again, trickling down intomusic.
It's an ever evolving field andit's only speeding up.
You know, technology is onlymaking things go quicker and I
feel like session musicians as awhole there's less and less
(10:24):
because the work is going awaymore and more as people get more
and more capable in thecomputer, you know.
Why do I need a live drummer?
Obviously if you hire somebodywho's been playing drums for 35
years, they might have betterideas about drumming than you
do, but some people are justcheap or you can't afford it.
(10:46):
It's expensive.
Studio musicians are expensiveand that's just the reality of
it.
You're paying for all thoseyears of experience.
D'Andre Jorge (10:52):
Moving forward, we asked Rocha to explain how
the pandemic has impacted hisrecording practices and what
struggles musicians are facingat this time.
Mike Rocha (10:59):
Until more recently, home recording was part of my
life and I had built a studio athome, but, the primary, means of
conveyance for me was in person.
So yeah, that all came to ascreeching halt, once the first
(11:20):
lockdown happened and then allof a sudden, all live gigs were
canceled, and we're not goinginto the studio anymore.
I've been in the studio twotimes for live recordings since
the first lockdown.
It is happening in very smallreserved instances, but by and
large it's, stopped.
(11:42):
Immediately things shifted tohome recording, but keep in mind
that production largely alsohalted for major studios, both
in the filming capacity andcreation, you know, writers,
aren't getting together in roomsand, it's just become very
difficult for production ingeneral.
(12:02):
So music is going to feel thatin a trickle-down sense, because
music generally gets added on tofilm, towards the end of the
process.
So, um we ended up feeling it,you know, no matter what in a
big way as everyone kind offeels it.
But, I've done a couple movies,from home currently and, uh,
(12:24):
it's okay.
I feel fine recording at home.
You know, I've done a lot of it.
Every musician is going throughsomething different right now,
in regards to what we'reexperiencing and having things
taken away from you, the abilityto like, do what you've been
doing.
And so, some people areremaining more positive than
others.
You know, some people are reallyfeeling the effects and, uh,
(12:47):
it's different for everyone.
D'Andre Jorge (12:49):
Continuing on, we then asked Rocha about the
impact COVID-19 has had onstudio work and what the current
state of the music industrylooks like.
Mike Rocha (12:56):
As far as studio work, I think that there is a
lot of damage being done rightnow, to be honest.
I think it's really pushed thegas pedal down towards the, uh,
the shrinking, just speeding itup You know, we, contractors and
musicians, were doing a lot offighting and advocating for
(13:16):
bringing work back to LA andgaining ground.
You know, we were really doing alot, like I did a, um, I've done
a lot of work for HBO.
Like I did that show Euphoria.
They wanted to, they wanted topush you forward to get to
Nashville, you know?
And so in LA we agreed to do,uh, the first season, uh,
non-union.
(13:37):
And it's been working, you know,we've been able to really
showcase the expertise of thestudio musician and how much
that truly does matter.
You know, you do, if you want tooutsource an orchestra and you
can take it to a foreigncountry, you know, that's where
the musicians will work for verylittle but the reality is that
(13:58):
the finished product is, uh,it's a pale comparison to what
you're going to get in LA ofhaving not only the caliber of
musician, but also the caliberof the studio engineer, the
equipment, the microphones, therooms, the post-production
engineers, you know, everything.
So, like I said, we were havinggood success, really good
success at moving work that hadleft LA and bringing it back.
(14:22):
So we were, we were gaining, wewere gaining we're gaining and
now it's like, dude, you know,it's, it's, it's uh, it's bad.
I mean, I don't know.
I honestly don't know anybodywho's like working even in a
similar-ish capacity.
(14:43):
It's quiet.
It's quiet.
And to go from where it was tothis, it's eyeopening, you know,
and again, me being a realist,like I like to read the writing
on the wall, or at least what Ithink is the writing on the
wall.
And it's like, wow.
I went from working constantlyto, I'm not doing hardly
anything in music.
(15:03):
You know, hardly anything that'sscary.
And, and then I look up to thepeople that are 25, 30 years
older than me, that are reallyon top of the pile, as far as
the career musicians and they'renot working, it's like, man, if
they're not working, who'sworking?
I think that music itself willalways be alive and well, it's
(15:28):
just evolving.
Studio recording, I think, isIt's maybe going to be more of
like a blip in history, where itwas once this really great art
form that people gave themselvesto, and these musicians are
incredible.
You know, they are unbelievable.
The, the levels that they'veachieved in sight reading and
(15:49):
flexibility.
My God, like it's really amasterful thing.
It's sad to see it go this way,because people will become that
anymore.
The whole thing about likepushing yourself in that
direction.
Like me, I'm intentionallyclassical trained and I'm
intensely jazz trained, and theneverything that experience
(16:11):
brings in, too.
That's going to just like, Idon't know, where's it going to
go?
Like, if there's no demand forit.
Right?
You think that even with theability to record at home,
everybody has the equipment andthe software and the, this and
the, that.
And it's like, where are thecalls?
You know, I'm not getting hit upto do hardly anything.
(16:33):
Nothing to pay my bills, youknow, not enough money to even
get that far.
D'Andre Jorge (16:39):
Finally we asked Rosha about the return of live
music, post COVID-19 and histhoughts on the lasting impact
of the pandemic.
Mike Rocha (16:45):
I think live music will, will resurface stronger,
than studio recording will, justsimply because people want to
play.
There's that, that visceralconnection that you get, you
know, when you're out there andyou're putting yourself out
there in the moment and giving alive performance and getting
energy back from your audience.
I think that's, that's justsomething that will never, ever
(17:06):
go away, no matter what.
People do it for free, you know.
They'll just have a day job andplay for fun, you know, and
that's their thing.
And, studio recordings, like allI did was music, you know, I
didn't have something to fallback on or, have a backbone of
income, you know, where it was,I'm recording and I'm
(17:27):
performing.
That's all I was doing.
So it's just, it's a differentapproach for someone like me.
And, I do think live is going tocome back.
It's already back look at Texas,you know, like they, they're
doing comedy clubs.
They're back, you know, it's allkinds of stuff is already, uh,
going, uh, at the willingnessof, of getting COVID.
(17:48):
They're getting sick.
They're just getting out there.
I guess they just don't, uh, Idon't know, they I ain't scared
of anything, but a live musichas always persevered.
I really do associate like withbeing a realist and[the] music
industry was already hurting.
It's been hurting for a lot ofyears since well, before, even
(18:11):
the 1980s, uh, it's beenshrinking, uh, on a whole.
In LA there's this thing calledthe Nifty One-Fifty.
The Nifty One-Fifty are the 150people that are basically the
chosen ones that get to do themajority of the studio work.
(18:31):
150 people that really handleall that.
And I know that, of course it'snot the entire, the entirety of
the people involved.
Like a lot of stuff getsoutsourced.
So, you know, if you're in theSan Francisco symphony, you're
going to see a lot of work forvideo games.
London Philharmonic does almostprimarily all the Disney stuff.
(18:52):
Um, you know, work is movingaround the world now at this
point.
Uh, and so that's been going onbefore the pandemic.
But, uh, I, I think that, um,COVID is going to have, um, a
lasting effect.
I think that the effects of thepandemic are going to last in
(19:13):
music, as long as people canremember the pandemic.
Like until you can truly forgetabout it, like it doesn't occur
to you anymore.
I'm going to call a 90 personorchestra session.
Right.
And it doesn't cross your mindthat,"how am I going to get 90
(19:34):
people at Fox Studios with, andI need to have everyone 12 feet
apart or whatever," you know.
It's like, until you can getover that mental reaction, then
I think there's, there's goingto be an effect and what, what
we're going to experience andwhat we already are experiencing
is less people getting hired,because you need to get this
(19:54):
space between everybody and withbrass players, and wind
instrumentalists in general,it's 12 feet.
It's not six feet, it's 12.
So to have a trumpet section,you're talking about 48 feet
just between them.
That's a big deal studiosgenerally, aren't that huge, and
the big ones have been goingunder because the necessity for
(20:15):
large recording stages has beenshrinking for again, decades.
So, that's part of my unpopularopinion is that I think that
it's not gonna come raging backand you know, like,"Oh, you
know, once we're out of this,there's going to be a ton of
production." And I'm not sayingthat that is a possible, and it
can't happen.
(20:36):
It could happen.
D'Andre Jorge (20:39):
We now transition to a short interview with
Michael McGinley, a technologyinvestor who used to travel with
some of the biggest musical actssuch as Michael Jackson.
Now an advisor for the streamingservice Napster.
We asked McGinley for histhoughts on technology and the
impact it's had on music.
Mike McGinley (20:53):
Good question.
I spent most of my career live.
Okay.
And the best sounding musicrecorded is when you have real
musicians playing.
That natural feel that you'recapturing in the studio.
You can't get that off acomputer having said that.
(21:14):
Can you grade something withGarage Band in your home for
kids that want to get started?
Cause yeah, back when I was onthe road, it cost$2 million to
record a record.
Big barrier.
Okay.
The fact that you cancommunicate and record remotely
(21:34):
or with connect with friends,that's a big deal, because it
enables you to do a lot morethings that you normally
couldn't do, or that would beexpensive to do.
I mean, right now with COVID,you couldn't be going to school
without all the technology.
10 years ago, I'm not sure theinternet would have been robust
enough and everybody's home todo Zoom calls all day.
(21:55):
Probably not.
So I think all that's good.
A lot of, lot of music is acollaboration with multiple
people.
So I think that's a big deal.
I don't know if it's going tomake music better.
The fact that they're workingmore together might make it
better, to have an opportunityto work more together.
I'm not trying to beanti-technology.
(22:15):
The technology has definitelymade it easier to record and be
creative.
I just, I don't think the musicis better with more technology.
Shreya Ravi (22:25):
Next we spoke with Stanford university professor
Chris Chafe, who has beendeveloping JackTrip, a tool to
allow musicians to collaborateremotely.
We spoke to him about JackTripand how he got started in music
technology.
Chris Chafe (22:37):
so JackTrip is a multi machine Internet audio
transport system.
So you can have JackTrip audioflowing between many machines
with many channels at verylittle latency.
Background personal side ofthings is family environment
that led me into the world ofmusic and science at a really
(23:01):
young age.
I think it was just, there inthe air with my parents both
musicians, both scienceteachers.
And, I guess, the rest is prettypredictable.
The result was, early love ofthe world of the music that I
was playing, but also I thinksound in general, and so I'm
really lucky.
(23:21):
I found a career, which combinesmy passions.
Beautifully supported at anearly age by teachers who let me
range far and wide.
At the same time with fantasticmentors on the engineering and
science side- I think back tothe fifth, sixth grade for that.
You have people in your lifethat just shaped things, right?
And because of their generosity,boom, that continued right up
(23:44):
through college and then intograduate school, having had
fantastic opportunities andmentors digital computing came
along just at the point where Iwas probably really receptive to
this you know.
And, got fascinated by computerprogramming and, the fact that I
could tie computer programminginto experimenting with sound
(24:07):
was also kinda early on a uniquething.
And I came to Stanford to workwith, kind of like, the
first-generation folks that wereexperimenting, you know.
Digital computers that could dothat kind of stuff- that was
really rare.
The other part of this luck ispeople who have the same passion
and being able to be around themand have a culture evolve,
(24:27):
right.
And that happened at Stanford,too.
So I waltzed into a scene andthat is the same scene today.
At the computer music center, wehave over 350 participants and
they're all great peoplebringing all this individuality
and, you know, diverse approachSo we have a kind of scene
that's more fun every day.
(24:49):
Here we are in the pandemic.
We're often, separate littlesatellite computer music
centers.
I'm in my home and we're veryconnected.
One of the ways we're connectedis, fortuitously, that home
networking got to this levelwhere we can support digital
audio flowing from home to otherhome with enough reliability
(25:11):
that it actually works reallywell.
But, you know, a half dozenyears ago when I moved into the
place I'm in now, I couldn't doit.
I could not have a flow ofuncompressed audio to Stanford
and back without a whole lot ofhiccups in it.
It sounded horrible.
Along comes lockdown in March.
Try it again.
I'm getting six channelsperfectly.
(25:31):
Such a wonderful moment, youknow, because I'm not alone.
There's just a really new kindof medium there, you know.
Eventually we would havediscovered it, but we were
brought into this we were ledinto this by necessity.
Probably why we're having thisinterview today, because it's
been going really well.
Shreya Ravi (25:49):
Along with Chafe, we also talked to Dan Tepfer, a
pianist, composer, and coder whohas been utilizing JackTrip
during the pandemic.
Dan Tepfer (25:56):
My name is Dan and I'm a pianist, composer, and
coder.
I always had these, twointerests.
These two worlds, kind of,surrounding me from a very young
age- the world of science andthe world of art.
I gravitated towards jazz verynaturally at an early age.
I loved improvisation, justalways really spoke to me in the
(26:19):
sense of having agency and beingable to just be yourself in
music in the moment.
That always felt amazing to me.
But at the same time, I also gotreally passionate about physics.
And so for my undergrad, Iactually studied astrophysics,
uh, and still, did a lot ofmusic on the side.
I was constantly playing gigs.
And then, for my masters, I wentto the new England conservatory
(26:43):
and did a masters in jazz pianoperformance.
I'd been coding, just for funall through my teens, but I just
kind of put it aside in mytwenties, focused like a hundred
percent on just being a jazzmusician And, for kind of random
reasons like needing to practicea certain musical exercise, I
started coding again and startedintegrating programming into my
(27:05):
musical practice.
I started working with theYamaha Disklavier which is this
fully acoustic piano that thatcan act as a player piano you
can send it commands and it willplay.
I've written these algorithmsthat improvise with me in real
time and also generate a visualrepresentation of the music as
it's being created.
That's been really exciting forme.
So, that brings us to like rightbefore the pandemic, and, I just
(27:31):
totally by chance, because afriend of mine asked me if it
might be possible to playreal-time music between Hawaii
and New York, I discovered Jacktrip.
I didn't know anything aboutrealtime music making over the
internet before the pandemic andjust immediately dove deeply
into it and haven't looked back.
(27:51):
I've been doing a ton of itthrough the entire pandemic.
And also I think I'm one of theonly people doing this, but I've
been doing regular ticketed livestreams where I actually sell
tickets to these live.
duo concerts, throughout thepandemic with, uh, you know,
really great artists likeChristian McBride, Cécile
McLorin Salvant, Fred Hersch,um, Melissa Aldana, um, et
(28:16):
cetera.
And that's been hugely importantto me through the pandemic.
Shreya Ravi (28:19):
To get some more insight on using JackTrip.
We asked both Chafe and Tepferabout their experiences with the
app and how latency impacts theprocess.
Chris Chafe (28:27):
When it's up and running and you connect with
somebody else and you can kindof get a sense of the way audio
should be then it's, prettyrewarding.
I got to say, you know, there'sa lot of those kind of stunned
moments where, you know, you,you were so used to.
Communicating over a distancewith a not so good audio sound
(28:48):
and that once you get a goodaudio sound, it's a contrast,
right?
The next stage is like you startplaying with somebody and for so
many of us that haven't beenable to play with somebody for
nine months now, that's a huge,huge, moment.
It's really fun to be there whenit happens.
Dan Tepfer (29:09):
And so then the other thing, the other big
development has been my use ofJackTrip, which also, I didn't
know anything about before thepandemic and, as a jazz
improviser, The ability to playto really be improvising with
another musician to be in thatconversation is just like almost
essential to my wellbeing, Iwould say.
(29:31):
It was about six weeks into thepandemic that I did JackTrip for
the first time with my friendJorge Roeder, who's a phenomenal
jazz bassist.
And we were like almost cryingwhen it first happened because
we hadn't played with anotherhuman than in six weeks.
And that's a really long timefor us.
Like we're doing this on a dailybasis.
(29:51):
If you were used to being huggedby somebody you love every day
and it just disappeared for sixweeks When you finally got that
hug back you'd be like"Oh thankGod!", you know?
I put a lot of work into gettingJackTrip working in a very
powerful way where you literallyfeel like you can make very
intricately rhythmic music withanother person, as long as
(30:14):
they're relatively nearby.
And so through the pandemic,I've been able to have these
meaningful musical exchangeswith great musicians and, um,
That's been amazing.
In terms of creative process ata kind of a meta level, I would
say it's not very different inthe sense that at the end of the
(30:34):
day, I've worked very hard mywhole life to, to be a competent
jazz musician.
And what that means is, I careabout.
Playing together in rhythm,making good melodies,
improvising harmonic pathwaystogether.
So all of these things remainfront and center the like
essential values of music that Icare about and ultimately what
(30:56):
I'm doing is using JackTrip as away to still be able to deal
with music in this serious waythat I've come to value so much.
So in other words, the creativeprocess remains the same, but I
have noticed some importantdifferences.
For example, in order to get thelatency, so low that we're
(31:16):
really able to play.
For example, with like ChristianMcBride, you know, we were
playing.
Like Donna Lee about that fastor actually even faster.
So, something that fast, I mean,your latency has to be extremely
low.
Just as a comparison, it takessound one millisecond to travel
(31:41):
one foot in air, approximately.
So in other words, if you have20 millisecond latency, that's
like playing with someone who's20 feet away from you and 20
feet away from you makes itpretty tough to play those kinds
of rhythms.
Like you're going to feel thatlatency.
So, what we are actually hearingin our headphones when we're
doing these, these duos, in manycases is pretty choppy.
(32:04):
It's got noise in it.
Because, you know, we're prettyexperienced musicians, we can
kind of hear through that.
So, so a lot of the time we'relistening through a lot of
noise, and what that means is itreally has an effect on the
music.
What it means is that you haveto play with great clarity.
For example, I've done threetwo-piano concerts and two-piano
(32:26):
improvisation is a particularlychallenging thing because you're
constantly kind of stepping oneach other's toes.
You're playing the sameinstrument.
It sounds the same.
You're in the same range, unlessyou're very careful to avoid
each other's range.
So it's tough and you have to belistening really closely.
And when you play in a concerttype situation, you can tend to
like step on each other's toesquite a bit.
(32:47):
And what I've found is doing itwith JackTrip, because of the
limitations of what you'rehearing, you just naturally play
very purposeful, very clear.
You simplify, you put lessdensity into your harmonic
textures, and ultimately thoseare good things.
(33:09):
Those are things that leadtowards a more communicative
and, I would say, more powerfulmusic.
So that's been a reallyinteresting side effect of, of
using JackTrip.
Chris Chafe (33:22):
The more traditional uses of, of this is
really replacing people's needto be in the same room playing
music together.
So, typically that's a distancethat, for classical or jazz or
folk, it's kind of like within600 miles or a thousand
kilometers.
So, up and down California, itkind of works.
(33:44):
There's a lot of music that'sless latency sensitive.
I mean, it's music that youreally want to hear really,
really well what the other folksare doing, but maybe you don't
care about playing kind of inthe groove and a fast tempo.
Once you relax that latencyconstraint, then you can start
to stretch, right?
So there's a lot of music beingplayed, very long haul between
(34:08):
continents.
I find that to be like almost afrontier, because you're
connecting with people you'venever actually been physically
with- might be new acquaintancesentirely musically speaking- and
you start making music.
And this goes back way pre COVIDbecause this really was where
Jack trip got its inception forthese more, distant types of
(34:31):
concerts and jams.
To play with somebody thatyou've never met who's on
another continent, way differenttime zone.
You start making the musictogether and you discover that
you're really on a wavelengthtogether.
You get into that kind offrontier.
You make music that you haven'texperienced before and you make
wonderful connections with othermusicians that way.
(34:53):
And it's musical connection.
Shreya Ravi (34:56):
We also asked Tepfer about some of the work
he's done during the pandemic.
Dan Tepfer (34:59):
One of the things I've done during the pandemic
is, I've been doing a lot ofduets right.
And even trios with otherpeople.
But some of these people are toofar away.
For example, uh, I have a goodfriend who is a brilliant singer
in Melbourne Australia and, youknow, that's massive latency.
There's no way that even withJack chip, you're going to be
able to really play in rhythmtogether.
Right.
(35:20):
And so I was thinking about whatcan we do together?
That's not going to be justlike, The stupid thing where
like I keep playing the chordsof a song and she sings over
them and I'm hearing her liketwo seconds later, you know,
what can I do that is moremeaningful and embraces the, the
latency that's there.
I came up with this idea that Imade a webpage with a piano on
(35:45):
it, and she can just click anote on the, on this piano.
And that note will starttrembling on my piano here.
So the note will start tremblingand, and then if she presses
another note, that note willalso start trembling so I'm
enabling my duet partner tocontrol my piano here through a
(36:05):
webpage.
she can lay down some notes thatplay and, and these are like,
they're not rhythmic, right?
It's just like kind of a bed ofsound, a pad.
And so then the game is, it's animprovisation game.
She'll start singing, she'llimprovise with it.
She'll make up a melody, a, youknow, makeup ideas.
Um, and then she can push abutton that just says transform.
(36:30):
And it will move these notes ina certain way.
And so she doesn't have controlover that.
It's just transform.
And then it's like this kind ofprofound and, um, hearing game
where the, the notes of change.
How do you adapt to that?
And how do you direct yourimprovisation?
So what it is is it's anevolving set of constraints and
(36:53):
that's what we like asimprovisers.
You have to have somebody topush against you.
You have to have something tobounce off of.
So that's not only does it makesense in the new context, but
maybe it also connects to whatyou were doing before.
So this is a really fun gamethat involves, you know,
algorithms and coding, and alsoresponds to the need for
something that doesn't requirelow latency.
(37:14):
There's something else that Idid during the pandemic that,
uh, I would not have doneotherwise.
And that, that I thought waspretty cool.
Uh, there's a presenter inJapan, um, who invited me to do
a live stream of naturalmachines to his Japanese
audience and in Japan, in hisregion of Japan, in Kyushu, the
(37:37):
COVID numbers are low enoughthat they have public
performances.
Um, people wear masks, butthey're all doing live
performances in a room.
Um, and, and so not only did hewant to do a live stream of
natural machines, but he asked,is there any way that we could
have a Disklavier there thatwould play what you're playing
(38:04):
so that we'd be hearing acousticsound.
So we got in touch with Yamaha,Japan, and it turns out that it
was possible to bring aDisklavier concert piano to the
venue that they did it in a, ina science museum actually.
In the atrium of the sciencemuseum.
So it was possible to bring thispiano.
And then, the question was, canI make this happen?
(38:24):
And I, um, I actually ended upwriting it all in JavaScript.
Uh, I made it basically, allthey need to do is open a
webpage on their end, which isactually being hosted on my
computer here as, as acting as aserver.
And that web page connects totheir local MIDI device, which
in this case is the Disklavierpiano.
And then every time I playsomething here, not only when I
(38:47):
play something, but when thecomputer plays something, that's
being sent to Japan, and also Ihad to build a buffering system
because with that kind ofdistance, you get very different
lag times in data transmission.
So that gets sent to this otherpiano and it gets buffered and
then they can adjust the latencythere so that it matches the
(39:10):
stream, the visuals of the livestream that I'm doing, which I
was doing just through it,through a YouTube unlisted
stream.
And it actually worked really,really well.
So, so basically the audiencewas treated to a live stream
where I am performing live.
And all the sound is coming inreal time, uh, from an acoustic
piano.
(39:31):
Basically, it's like, I'mplaying the piano over there.
I was really excited that wepulled it off.
Shreya Ravi (39:38):
Capping off the conversation, we asked Chafe
about the future of JackTrip andits development.
Chris Chafe (39:43):
I think the more practical, immediate things that
we're doing today that I thinkwill endure have to do with,
probably not replacing the factthat it's really enjoyable to
play music together physicallyand be in the same space, but
some of the preparation thatgoes into that is sometimes a
little cumbersome.
In a group that might be made ofdifferent sections, you know,
(40:05):
like a large orchestra or bigband there's always time spent
like working on subsections ofthe ensemble.
It's kind of a hassle to formthose sectional rehearsals.
This is like a really, reallyobvious benefit to be able to
like, prepare the rhythm sectionbefore the main rehearsal where
(40:25):
everybody, drives to the hall.
And even with a coach and maybethe coach is on the other side
of the country.
That's going to be doablebecause we're already doing it
now.
The more far-fetched stuffthough is, you start to kind of
take some of what we're talkingabout and put it into a more
kind of XR environment where,you're inhabiting a space with
(40:47):
other folks.
There's a sense of presence thatyou want to build.
That's, you know, gonna have alot of components.
One of them is audio.
you know, first of all, make akind of, audio experience with
some veracity so that it reallyfeels like a space an
illusionary space that has wallsand angles other inhabitants.
The next thing is kind of fromthe artistic point of view,
(41:10):
what's the synthetic versionthat isn't really reproducing
reality, but create somethingvery new that we haven't
experienced before.
That takes us all the way intocomputer music or computer art.
There's always been kind of likethis benchmark of like, we're
going to reproduce reality.
you know, there's been researchtrying to create a really good
(41:30):
synthesis of the violin and getthe rich sound make it, just be
perfect.
And, that's a benchmark.
That's one aspect of computermusic and acoustics.
The other side is, well, we knowsomething about that, but you
know, now that it's in this formof a model, we can manipulate
that model and we can createthings that are never before
(41:54):
heard.
And also might be verytantalizing, might be very
musical give new sonicpossibilities to the artists.
I see that in the XR worldhappening, I mean, it already
is.
One thing that I've been puttingout there is when we do JackTrip
sessions with the musicdepartment we actually have
servers running that take theplace of rooms.
I mean, that's their function.
(42:15):
And so from my house, I connectto a room that's actually just a
computer server and there'sother people connecting in and
we hear each other.
And to some extent, we try toget a little bit of a room, feel
like a acoustic with some reverband spatialization, but what
about taking that a whole otherlevel, right?
(42:37):
You know, what about a roomthat's full of alien harps?
Strings that are excited by windblowing through.
Wouldn't you like to be in aroom for like that and play your
instrument for a little while?
I mean, just to find out.
You know.
Shreya Ravi (42:52):
As COVID-19 has ushered in a world of limited
physical interaction, livemusicians who rely on
collaboration have faced aunique challenge in continuing
to create.
Innovative music technologieslike JackTrip pave the way for
new forms of remote musiccollaboration that have
connected musicians during thepandemic.
In an increasingly digitalatmosphere, they allow us to
reimagine how music can beperformed and experienced.
(43:15):
We want to give a huge thanks toChris Chafe, Mike Rocha, Michael
McGinley, and Dan Tepfer, forproviding their thoughts,
opinions, and experiences forthis episode.
If you would like to hear someof Tepfer's music, be sure to
check out his YouTube channel orwebsite at dantepfer.com.
Likewise, you can find some ofRocha's work on his own website
at mikerochamusic.com.
If you'd like to try JackTripout for yourself, check out the
(43:37):
JackTrip Foundation atjacktrip.org.
D'Andre and I co-produced thispodcast along with Ryan Wixen
and Nathan Sariowan.
Ryan and Nathan also producedthe music.
Thanks for listening!
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.