Roundtable #1 | Dualistic Unity - Dualistic Unity

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
hello and welcome to round table number
one of dualistic unity i'm andrew
i'm ray and today we have sophie and
ella and mary joining us for the round
table we're going to be
talking about a few different subjects
today but we might as well start with
something simple the existence of god

(00:20):
so who would like to break the ice on
this one i trust everybody here has
their own opinion of god is everybody
from a religious background how about uh
how about you sophie i know mary you
come from a christian background
yeah personally not uh from a religious
background didn't grow up
raised under any religion frankly so i

(00:42):
think that's kind of skewed my viewpoint
in a way of not really having super
influence to go one way or the other
um
i've been exposed to a bunch of
different religions went to a jewish law
school so
got a lot of exposure to judaism there
but
that's definitely
where i've been

(01:03):
nice that's interesting for sure because
judaism has a very different concept of
god they of course god their entire
religion is wrapped up very much in
their language as well as their history
so and even the the verb to be is a
reference to to um yahweh in judaism so
it's very different than say just the
the simple mainline christianity which

(01:24):
is just you know sky daddy as it were
you know judaism tends to be much more
personal as a religion so
it's interesting that you had exposure
to that not being from a religious
background yourself um i i think that
probably gives you a more nuanced view
of the topic than anything else i often
think to myself that people who who
didn't get pounded over the head with it
from an early age

(01:46):
kind of get a different experience of it
like my daughter for example she's she's
never been involved with religion at all
and her perspective of the concept of
god is very light it's kind of like
that's interesting with me it was like
oh i hope i'm not going to hell please
don't strike me down
that kind of thing right so it's um
that's really interesting i'm looking
forward to getting into
more of your interpretation of the
concept of god and reality

(02:08):
and uh how about you ella what was your
experience with religion like
yeah so when i was growing up i
was it was pretty much just me and my
mom she was a single mom so
we didn't have time to go to church but
my extended family would take me every
so often
and i learned the basics like

(02:28):
a bible study and the story of adam and
eve
and i could always
tell that i was um a little bit
skeptical
of it and
confused if it was just something that
we told each other or if it was actually
the truth
but now that i've like come to learn all
this stuff i started to see like

(02:49):
similarities between
all religions
and
the
main takeaway is like awareness and
we're not separate from each other
like we are
god if that makes sense
but each religion kind of has its own
way of telling it so i i
do not think that religions

(03:11):
have to be
harmful if you have a certain
perspective
i don't know if that makes sense but
yeah that's kind of where i'm at right
now
yeah absolutely that makes perfect sense
i i agree it's just it's like uh it's
like any other story or any other
narrative that can have insight it can
point the way for you can even give you

(03:32):
kind of a north star to guide your
decisions
but as soon as you start taking it as
the absolute
dedicated truth that nothing else can
hold a flame to it becomes very
dangerous you start putting yourself up
on a pedestal even if you don't even
mean to and everybody kind of gets
judged as a result so no that makes
complete sense it's good again that
you've kind of come out the other end of

(03:53):
religion with the same unifying insight
and of course mary
you uh you have an experience in
christianity much like andrew and myself
we've talked about that before i'd love
to hear about your your specific
interpretation and insights about god
so
um i wasn't born into it
um my grandpa he's a priest a

(04:13):
catholic priest
and so when i was really young i would
like
go every now and then
but
then i moved and
had a friend that was christian and we
would go to church eventually my family
started going to church and
i always had doubts
but um i was always taught to just like

(04:36):
not doubt so that was kind of pushed
away
um but eventually i just got to the
point where nothing made any sense
so i just left and that's when
um
i really started digging deeper into
life
and
kind of just realized that

(04:57):
if god is omnipresent then i am god and
so is everyone else
yeah i love that yeah that sounds pretty
similar to
my experience just like less and less
the more questions i asked the less
anything any of it made sense and then
it was like wait god is everything and
everywhere and all knowing all the time

(05:18):
that means you know we are something
within everything right so i am god then
and it's like oh no no god is god is
very god is within you
but he's not you and it's like that's
sort of like cognitive dissonance of
like literally teaching that god is
everything and everywhere but then like

(05:39):
not holding on to it and it's like they
get so caught up in the rules and the
ideas about god and the ideas that they
are taught that they are just like kind
of regurgitate throughout their life
they don't even like take a second to
sit back and like really think about it
they're just like as long as i do
wxyz

(05:59):
you know i get to heaven and it's like
you know this easy sort of thing and
they don't really have to
go through the
like life
experiences of like actually seeing it
in action actually experiencing god like
we talk about so much and they just you
know as long as they believe in it or
you know for hardcore christians as long

(06:20):
as they believe that jesus is lord and
savior like that's it they can do
anything they want as long as they
believe that jesus christ is the lord
and savior they're good
so it's it's quite interesting i find
that sort of thinking and just how it
just really doesn't make much sense when
you take a step back but they're so

(06:41):
caught up in it that they
oftentimes miss the forest and the trees
yeah definitely i had an experience
i went to a
bible camp or something of that sort
and there's this term that
they use which is being saved
and
people were saying you know

(07:03):
i got saved last night like it's like a
feeling that you feel god for the first
time or like what everyone's actually
talking about and i had a moment
it was during a sermon or
when
the preacher was talking i don't i don't
really know what it's called and i had
that feeling of being saved but when i

(07:23):
look back on it
i realized that it was the feeling of
like acceptance and love and you can
feel those things
in religion but it's under
a guise
and it makes you feel still separate
so
like that is kind of the reason that
drove me to question am i really saved

(07:44):
what did i really feel was it god
i think it was
showing me that there is this feeling of
acceptance but it's
it's a little bit different than what
you might have been taught
you know what i mean
very much very much one of my favorite
expressions and i often find this kind

(08:04):
of funny tongue-in-cheek
is that god helps those who help
themselves
because of course we're all god and as
we help ourselves as we let go as we
surrender
god forgives us and let's go and
surrenders and that that's why jesus was
always saying that you know the kingdom
of heaven is near god is always
forgiving the present is always
forgiving because your narrative no
longer applies there so you always have

(08:27):
the ability to just come to the moment
where you're free
right and so yeah it's very much that
but
i i've witnessed
many people of many different religions
mostly christian because of course that
that they tend to focus most on on that
uh that judgment part but who just end
up stuck
waiting for jesus to forgive them
waiting for god to forgive them not

(08:48):
realizing that the entire time it was
their own ability to forgive themselves
that would open up that experience and
of course
the more we judge ourselves the harder
that is which i've often found was
interesting even in judaism because of
course the torah means the law it's
literally a book about how do we judge
ourselves how do we keep ourselves on
the straight and narrow in terms of uh

(09:09):
god's divine will or god's commandments
and so there's there's a whole other
thing there where
suddenly we have this idea of god
as opposed to to the reality of god
which
doesn't have a set
list of rules it doesn't have the
structure of say the law like sophie was
saying it has experienced in it herself
is that
there is it's all ambiguity

(09:31):
right so which is where the whole faith
thing comes from but then we get in
there and we go okay well we know all
that but we've had insights about unity
so let's just write that down and make
it easier for everybody else so they
don't have to think about all of this
it's like right but it's in the thinking
of that that they can connect to god or
connect to awareness or the universe
right so we almost

(09:52):
we almost set people back by trying to
make it easier for them
when we should just get out of the way
and be there ourselves and just kind of
be an example of how that feels and how
one lives when you feel free right but
that's not often what we do and that's
where religion often comes from uh
sophie i have just a quick question for
you since you didn't necessarily grow up
pounded over the head with religion

(10:14):
do you find yourself
reaching for the fiction of god or or
source consciousness from time to time
do you find yourself especially in times
of stress say for example because i know
that's where it comes up for me but
that's largely because of my background
um do you find yourself reaching for an
idea that there is a
guiding presence in the universe
whatever you might call it that's
helping you along or or that you have to

(10:35):
somehow make sure that you're aligned
with that you're you're jumping through
the right hoops for them do you have any
of that experience
interesting question and i think first i
kind of want to respond to what you guys
are talking about because it makes me
think of i think there's an ella watts
quote where along the lines he says that
a person who clangs
through
religion or the concept of a god has no

(10:58):
faith at all because ultimately
you know you're spending the whole time
clinging and attaching that identity of
presence to the identity of the religion
so you never had the chance to actually
experience presence because you spent
your whole life
chasing that idea and i guess going off
i think maybe it was
mary who said it kind of i've kind of

(11:18):
been skeptical of religion my whole life
and kind of feeling like it just it
didn't really make sense to me um how
there can be not only religions but
different types of them that while they
all kind of say the same thing
are so conflicting and on the root of so
many tensions
across the world and the wars and why

(11:39):
people are separated and why people get
killed all the time so it just didn't
really make sense to me i really always
viewed it as something that
is
i don't want you know and i i really re
i have a lot of friends who are
religious i'm very respectful of their
religion um but it just it's been very
hard for me to kind of believe

(12:01):
it and you know
fall i don't want to say a victim to it
but i do kind of see that of some people
where they are so clinging so hard their
whole lives and they can't even
understand what it is to be present at
all if that makes sense
yeah as ray always says the only true
religion is none
right and i find it so like religion is

(12:21):
probably the most divisive thing that's
ever
come to be on this planet when you think
about it and i find it so fascinating
when i came across a tick tock account
someone tagged
in one of my posts talking about sky
daddy and it was like
some catholic something and i went to
the page and just looking in and they

(12:42):
like pick apart
other religious people's
beliefs that are like like a protestant
specific tick tock page they'll like
pick apart like nitpick the scripture
verses that they choose and why like the
catholics are right and the protestants
are wrong and i'm like they're just
going at this like internal thing

(13:04):
like that no one even like really
bothers paying attention to i'm sure
except for people that heavily identify
with either of those things but like
it's just not relevant to the rest of
the world it's so fascinating how
yeah like how many religions there are
there's so many and the whole idea uh
there's some communi maybe ricky gervais

(13:24):
has some funny uh stand-up bits about
how
religious people are just one god away
from being atheists like you don't
believe in you know
9999 gods but you only believe in one so
like you're
99.999 percent
atheist in that sense in terms of like
sky daddy god as opposed to
understanding that like you are god but

(13:47):
yeah the whole idea of just how divisive
religion really is when you're able to
take a step back and look at things and
and people who are so identified with it
it's like
99 of them were born into that like
there are people who you know come to
find god later in their life in the
sense of like in a religious
capacity but for the most part you're

(14:08):
born into it like you wouldn't believe
in that if it wasn't for your parents
and your grandparents and everyone
before you so yeah it is it's very very
interesting
i i find it interesting um to think
about i wonder a lot of time like is i
feel like fear
is a large root of religion

(14:29):
you know trying to talk about i mean we
could talk about like what people think
about
the
how the fear and religion and how they
connect and what their connection are
because at least all the religion i've
read about what i know about a lot of
underlying it feels like it's fear you
know you don't want to you can't live a
certain way because if you don't live a
certain way xyz is going to happen to

(14:50):
you or god's not going to accept you so
you're fearful of if i don't do these
things what's going to happen to me when
i die and i think that kind of
connecting to death creates
this
viewpoint of not even wanting to think
of death in a way that other people
might of you know trying to accept it or
understand it because there's all these
conditions that come with it which is

(15:12):
depending whatever religion you're in
you know if i do this then i'll be a
good person if i you know if i don't eat
kosher food then
that's you know that's i'm going to be
you know god won't accept that so
i feel like there's so much fear based
at least in my opinion so i'd be curious
to hear what people think about the
connection of fear and religion
yeah yeah absolutely go ahead mary this

(15:33):
is a great point i just wanted to
mention one thing quickly about uh
kosher foods it's funny how our our
requirements all of a sudden for
religion will start to change according
to time in the environment because now
all of a sudden uh camels have been
considered kosher that's okay despite
having diploma hoof right and it's
largely because of the meat requirements
of the population at the time and
they're just like no no

(15:54):
that's okay now in the same way the
catholic church is like oh okay so you
know sex out of wedlock that's okay now
right so it's very much marketing
whereas before in the old world it was
you know how how judgmental is your god
and that was very much the the marketing
point right you get this much
superiority with this religion right
whereas now it's like no no that all of
those dividing lines is actually making

(16:16):
harder for us to spread religion that's
why here in canada there was a poll
recently showing that i think there's 59
percent
of uh followers left in canada compared
to where we were like 20 years ago in
terms of religion just people are
walking away from religion because
they're not finding it it aligns with
their their lives in in the real world
so

(16:37):
it's inevitable mary
yeah it's still kind of terrifying for
me sometimes like
um because i've only been out of church
for three or so years
um i still have a lot of programming
left from it and sometimes like i'm

(16:57):
still like
scared
and
i start to realize that like
it's not
the leaving that's scaring me it's the
church itself
you know it's the fear coming from the
belief system so

(17:17):
yeah
no i know what you mean and i was
thinking about what ray was saying first
and i was like do we even get into
christmas
maybe we should just leave that
but um
the fear always came
from
really oh i want to get into heaven and

(17:38):
also i want to be protected i want to be
safe like there's the prayer that you
say at night
now i lay me down to sleep
yeah like i used to say that when i was
a kid because it brought me comfort
but now that i found all these things
out the fear comes from the church from
instilling that in us and leading us
astray
and
to the

(17:58):
the scale that it is
so many people that are under
that influence
that's scary
and
what i'm sorry what sophie was saying
about fear too
i really see it as a fear of the unknown
because how did the universe come about
it gives them an easy explanation

(18:19):
so many things that you don't know or
how you don't know how to navigate
everyday life so you have someone else
tell you
when usually it should just come from
like the heart
so
there's so many different aspects of
fear that play into it from like so many
different perspectives that
it seems like that's a really big focal

(18:40):
point
in the reasoning that it's so
um
it's so powerful it's so strong it's
because like latches on to
the deepest parts of what we're trying
to understand
and gives you a simple explanation
yeah i kind of compare that to
the way like some sales people or people

(19:02):
in
nutrition or fitness especially try and
make things very confusing at first they
make things very confusing and complex
so that later on in their you know pitch
or explanation they can come in and be
like i know this seems super confusing
but if you just buy this for me for you
know
four easy payments of 100 bucks every

(19:23):
two months like it will solve all of
this so the church does a very very good
job of instilling a shitload of fear on
purpose so that then they can be the one
that is like you know all these things
are like definitely the truth and you're
super afraid of them and now you're like
have all this trauma but here we'll come

(19:44):
in and like soothe it and as long as you
just you know give us money and pray to
god and say your stuff every night and
go to church every sunday like you'll be
good as long as you like support us but
they're the ones that are instilling the
fear in the first place and it's just
like someone who like confused like
tries to confuse people initially so

(20:04):
they can come in and like sell their
product or sell their program to like
de-confuse you and it's just like
snake oil salesman tactics pretty much
and that's all it is so i think that
really is
the reason
for the fear instillment is so that it
kind of like they're able to do that to

(20:25):
children essentially that's when people
mostly get indoctrinated when people are
you know gone primarily in the theta
brainwave state they're just like you
know a sponge basically for every
experience they have they're just like
downloading everything going on in their
life and the church is a massive part of
children's lives and the idea of heaven
and hell and you know don't be a

(20:47):
bad boy or girl because you know you
might burn in hell for eternity and it's
like when you say it out loud it's so
[ __ ] up but
yeah yeah i think that's where it stems
from is just instilling that fear so
they can come in and soothe it through
all through you know made up
belief systems

(21:07):
that's really interesting because
sometimes i wonder if
because that's true i mean the fact is
that's how the church survives right but
that doesn't necessarily mean that's
where it started because
even just in believing in god
we immediately create a separation
right there's separation between us and

(21:28):
god and while that idea might be used to
give us a sense of comfort and certainty
and control
it also immediately creates a figure
that is still unknown that we have to
appease that now it's even worse than it
was not now we're not just uncertain
we're uncertain about this shadowy
figure that doesn't even exist

(21:50):
and so it's almost like as soon as we
decide to believe in god
fear is right there at our heels because
there's no choice we're creating a new
unknown we're creating a new uncertainty
in our effort to solve our our
uncertainty so it kind of just
goes full circle and comes back at us

(22:10):
but as ella was saying earlier
there are things within religion
that are positive i mean people have
have often said this to me citing
peer-reviewed research that of course
there there's proof that religion brings
people together that it can facilitate
community and empathy and there has been
evidence showing that that's good for
people in their lives and i mean of

(22:31):
course obviously obviously you know
empathy and community is good for people
in their lives and religion can help
facilitate that but as we said before it
becomes almost an obstacle
to that because then you're only showing
empathy and community to the people who
agree with you right the people who
share your your worldview and so that
that cuts you off from everybody else
and makes everybody else

(22:53):
a reason to be afraid in the same way as
your fictional god right so i i think
that if we can adopt
the empathy that comes with religion i
think that if we can adopt the mentality
and the insight that we're all in this
together and just operate from there
that
the mentality we're talking about would
would almost do its own marketing as it
were because

(23:13):
you're just out there living for
yourself through everybody else i mean
that that's the definition of altruism i
think that that would be the
reincarnation of religion
religion without it being religion that
we don't like to see
so i think it's interesting to think
about kind of like
how the concept of free will might play

(23:34):
into this and you know we're talking so
much about like the church and the
church does this and the church
drawing analogies to church like sales
they want to get people in it and then
you know you think about the guy in the
church and
he's been in it his parents have been in
it and their grandparents have been in
this religion and it just gets passed
and passed down to them so what

(23:54):
separates them from the person like me
who just so happens to be existing on
the same earth but just doesn't
isn't in that world in the sense that's
just not the body i was born into that's
just not who am i i am so what gives
someone the choice to
you know kind of
give them the free will to if they don't
want to be in their religion to leave it

(24:16):
and to understand whether
that's something that they actually
don't want to be in i mean you hear
people who like end up leaving
religion or who don't and i guess this
kind of goes to like a larger question
of like do we have free will can is
everything kind of just like predefined
for us like can you really just decide
if i want to leave a religion or if that
just is what you're experiencing so i

(24:36):
think it's interesting to think about
also when touching like judgments in
other people who might not be in the
religion of you but does anyone really
have a choice of what religion you're in
i mean that kind of might go a little
far-fetched from what we're trying to
talk about in this conversation but i i
find it interesting to think about when
analyzing that you know religion

(25:01):
yeah yeah i mean there's i think there's
levels
to it right like someone who
like sophie for example who isn't really
born into a religion
isn't gonna have something to you know
get out of so you're kind of starting
from a certain position and
with free will we've talked about it a
few times on the podcast and i think i

(25:21):
still because i was always under kind of
like before i started talking to ray the
idea that you know you don't really have
free will and i think it's like
like you do and you don't kind of that
sort of thing and it depends how you
define you like everyone has a
definition of themselves and and if you

(25:42):
understand that you're the universe
experiencing itself it's like instead of
thinking like
the analogy of there's an analogy i
heard once it was like if you're in a
hurricane and you know this human is
just like a bird within a hurricane
like you don't you can kind of like
have some movement whatsoever but

(26:04):
not really much like you're kind of
getting tossed around by the hurricane
but if you understand that you are the
entire hurricane all of a sudden that
perspective like or not hurricane birds
aren't in hurricanes or in tornadoes
more so
so if you're a tornado it's like if you
understand you're the entire tornado all
of a sudden like your perspective kind
of shifts a little bit in that sense so

(26:25):
i've always been interested in free will
and i feel like my perspective always
used to be
like looking back on your life which you
have ever
made any decision like you know this
morning i had
yogurt for breakfast
every kind of thing that happened
leading up to

(26:46):
my decision to choose to reach my fridge
and grab yogurt was like every decision
leading up to it kind of like
led to that sort of decision so looking
back would i have ever done anything
differently like i don't know but in
that moment i definitely had the option
of
oatmeal or yogurt or you know cereal so

(27:09):
it's it's kind of like do people have
the choice to leave the church
like yeah they do do some people suffer
more consequences or more afraid that
they don't even want to
bother with the consequences because
some people are you know heavily
indoctrinated to the point that
it's difficult even if they choose to

(27:30):
want to leave it's more difficult
because of the community that they're in
the way that everyone in their community
will think of them their parents will be
disappointed things like that so
yeah it's not it's one of those things
that like
it's kind of you do when you don't it's
kind of like gray area like everyone
wants everything to be black and white
but

(27:50):
it isn't always
so but i think there are levels to it
and you know
people
sometimes it can be easier or more
difficult for people certainly depending
on their situation
yeah absolutely and especially when you
are
raised within that community and
everybody that you know is very much
participating in that narrative to the

(28:12):
point where that's the cornerstone of
their certainty that's the cornerstone
of their relationships with one another
and so
when
you do
by questioning or or by necessity for me
it was the fact that my life changed so
very much that the things that i was
taught about christianity no longer
resonated as true and they just seemed
over overly simplified for the hell that

(28:34):
i was experiencing and so that's what
pushed me right out of the other end of
religion whereas some people just
question their way out of religion but
in that process
it's like the whole world around you
shakes
and it's because
and i've often thought about this is it
do we have free will or is it
predetermined and i think it really
comes down to

(28:55):
our awareness of the narrative that
we're caught in because it's always free
will even if we're unconscious right
we're technically choosing to be
unconscious we may not like that reality
but at the end of the day the
responsibility to wake up is on us
but when we say waking up what do we
mean we mean
looking at our habitual

(29:15):
narrative looking at the the loop or the
rut that we created for ourselves just
by habit through repetition right and so
as soon as we become aware of that
suddenly we can choose a different meal
as andrew was saying suddenly we have
the potential to just change
change that direction and go somewhere
else but it's almost until it's not
until we're aware that we're caught in a

(29:36):
loop that we can change the loop
but our life our day-to-day existence
our relationships everything
is
is built around the loops that we built
build for ourselves so as soon as we
break a loop
everything around us starts to shake and
fall apart and people resist and they
judge you and they tell you you're going
the wrong way and they try to pull you
back and you can think

(29:58):
oh well they're using their free will to
pull me back but they're responding out
of their habitual loops as well so it's
almost like your free will
is tugging away from what is ultimately
still their free will but because we're
all connected it's just like the process
of a single mind
changing and weighing the pros and the
cons
that's what's happening is that we as a

(30:19):
singular awareness are different
thoughts comparing ourselves to one
another and kind of finding a balance
for what awareness and clarity is and so
when i look at free will or or
predetermination
it's very much the same thing like
andrea was saying it's just a matter of
perspective if you want to look at your
will as the individual it's absolutely
free will if you look at your will as

(30:41):
the will of the whole
then it's all predeterminism
right and so i always find that really
interesting is that it's not necessarily
about
one or the other so much as just being
aware that both of them are perspectives
of what is which is always just here and
now so what do you want to do
and then you can keep going in that move

(31:01):
absolutely and that really is beautiful
because i look at it as not so much do
we have free will or not but i look at
it from like an infinite perspective
like as the neutrality as the neutral
observer
you see that
the universe plays out
by this
who knows what code it is it's just it's

(31:23):
a the natural law
and
our thoughts and everything that we do
happens because of that so it is
predetermined
but we also have
the ability to think whatever we so it's
like it's not just
we have all our actions played out for
us but we also have

(31:44):
the free will to do whatever we want so
when we reach that moment
it's like this divine timing of the
universe like you were meant to question
and you were meant to come to this
understanding
because who knows why you just were and
you have
and when other people might not be there
yet it's
happening for a reason

(32:06):
and it does take one person at a time
but that can't be
changed like the process of it
so yeah it's crazy absolutely it's funny
because it's kind of a contradiction
it's like you were meant to wake up
because you chose to wake up
that's why i always find it funny when
people are like oh jesus was chosen it's

(32:26):
like jesus chose
which is why he was chosen because
they're one and the same right it's that
contradiction i love that i find that
really really interesting
yeah it's like that's where the sort of
non-duality comes in it's like there is
no
separation between no matter how hard
you think about it like jesus chose so
he was chosen it's like it's like oh was

(32:48):
it like a split second separation like
he chose and then he was chosen and it's
like really quick and it's like nope
that's there's no separation there and
even with this discussion too sometimes
i you know get caught up in having a
conversation about it and then like and
i love having conversations about about
it and whatnot like whether we have free
will or not or you know it depends on
your perspective but then i always

(33:11):
remember like
does it matter i'm i'm here now and i
can you know make i am aware of what is
here now and i can make the decisions
that
i feel like making so whether it's all
predetermined
or not like here i am experiencing life
like let's see what i can do with it

(33:32):
and that's sort of where i settle if i
some because sometimes i get too deep
into it and it's almost like
you know gets your brain starts hurting
and you're like ah it doesn't either way
it doesn't really matter too much like
here i am like i i can do things
and i will because i can
yeah absolutely freedom i mean this is

(33:53):
the recognition of that ultimately is is
heaven right it's the surrendering of
your borders surrendering of your
limitations that you conceptually create
for yourself i can't do that because of
this part of my story and i can't do
that because of this part of my story
and you let all that go and suddenly you
can do pretty much whatever you want or
what whatever's within your ability
right
but the extreme polar opposite of that

(34:14):
is the the ever tightening box of the
narrative that you create for yourself
which is ultimately creating more of a
sense of disconnection and i bring this
up because this is something that mary
wanted to discuss as well was the
experience of hell
the experience of living hell and of
course in religion
and i'm i argue this a lot and it's
ultimately going to be the basis of our

(34:35):
next video project beyond transcendence
religion is talking about an experience
that is very real and universally
available to everybody but it's doing
it's doing so through old archaic
language through old narratives through
the culture of the time all that other
stuff and so when they're talking about
the devil
we tend to get a picture of you know a

(34:55):
guy with horns and a pitchfork right
which of course christianity helped us
with and then we picture god we got a
guy in the sky and all that but
when we're talking about the devil it's
just symbolism
for the ego for the the over commitment
to our idea of ourselves that that
offers us control over the world right
and offers us you know the the respect
and admiration of everybody it offers uh

(35:16):
to make us a king and that's the ego
right so
when you look at religion they're really
just talking about what we're talking
about here is that the more caught up we
get in our idea of ourselves and the
need for control the need for power the
need to judge the need for superiority
the more disconnected we feel and we end
up in a state of living hell and mary
i'm just wondering what's your

(35:37):
experience with that is that something
that you found in your own experience as
well
yeah i think that i get into a state of
heavy anxiety because
i don't know what's hap gonna happen
next and so like
my mind creates scenarios
of hell basically and it feels real and

(35:59):
like
um it feels like
i'm experiencing it
here
so
yeah that's my experience on that um
it like
happens sometimes and then it'll go away
and i'll be good
be chilling but then it'll happen again
and

(36:19):
it really has a lot to do with like
my ego being afraid of death like and
just afraid of
um not surviving past a certain point
so yeah
yeah comes back to that identity right
identity is the root right and i talked

(36:41):
a lot about this on our podcast on
monday because that was something that
hit me
recently just like i saw it much more
clearly
that anything including things like you
know beliefs especially beliefs any
belief that you have any opinion that
you have just reinforces

(37:01):
me reinforces the identity that you have
cultivated so
basically any
thoughts that you have and any fears and
any worries and any anxieties
are rooted in that identity like what
fears do you really have that aren't
like kind of filtered through
the idea of you so without the idea of

(37:23):
you
there really isn't that much to be
afraid of or worried about like if there
was no you like that's kind of where it
all
stems from for the most part but
we
so understanding and like
that's why i am okay you know making a
lot of videos about people
how important it is to question your
beliefs because

(37:44):
people see that especially the ones
about god and like sky daddy god that
they think that i'm just like being a
dick and like i get some sadistic
enjoyment in getting people super
uncomfortable to the point that they're
like you know so angry and you can see
it in the comment sections you can see
it and you know people close to me that

(38:05):
it's like it really fires people up but
i don't think they should they just
don't realize how closely tied to
their fear and anxiety and worries those
two things are like they just don't see
the connection and the connection is
identity that those beliefs build up
their identity they are a believer they

(38:27):
are a christian they are catholic you
know they have all of these thoughts
about themself and that those thoughts
about themselves are what you know
builds up those fears and worries and
anxieties so the more you can question
it the less beliefs that you have the
less opinions you have about every
goddamn thing going on in the world
you know the less identity there will be

(38:49):
and it doesn't you know it's not like
your identity just goes away but it gets
that point where you know you're
existing in this illusion of duality
with this identity but it's not that
you're taking it seriously it's not you
know that isn't who you are and like all
that you are like people like
most of the time when people are getting
caught up in those things they are

(39:10):
tied to this idea of them and that's
where it all kind of filters through
so when you're caught up in that idea of
hell it's usually
just
a lot about
me and that's where it is rooted in my
whole thing like
that i talk about a lot is like social
anxiety and in high school i was super

(39:30):
quiet because i was always worried about
what people thought of andrew like what
people thought of me so i figured you
know if people i if i don't just like
put ever put myself out there and no one
can really have much of an opinion
of me
and then you know there's less judgment
on me but meanwhile i was
existing in hell because i was like so

(39:52):
afraid of putting myself out there and
risking people not liking
andrew and it all came back to this
identity and then you know the more i
realized that people just weren't
thinking about me and then you know
eventually more recently realized that
andrew is nothing more
than a figment of my imagination

(40:12):
essentially a bundle of
ideas and thoughts
that
are only reinforced by
my beliefs and and even you know as far
as something like gratitude reinforces
that identity and while people will
definitely argue that and i'm looking
forward to some debates about gratitude
because that is like you know number one

(40:35):
buzzword and the self-help guru world
that too
reinforce anything you're grateful for
comes back to that identity and that
identity is the root of all of it so
anything that reinforces it will
perpetuate that cycle
absolutely
absolutely and i know sophie you are you

(40:55):
had mentioned that you you're into the
practice more and more the practice of
mindfulness and meditation um coming
back to the present getting out of your
mind and whatnot and i know um
you may not have the christian mythology
pounding you over the head but i i'm
sure that you
are in are getting into that those
topics and into that practice
specifically because of the alternative
which is not being present which is

(41:17):
getting caught up more and more in your
head and in your narratives and
projections into the future and
rehearsing
conversations with people that haven't
happened or happened in the past or
things like that
so i mean that that all can contribute
to very much what what is being
described with the symbolism of hell um
did you find that
that was a process that came about in
your life more or less out of necessity

(41:37):
or or was it inspired by you meeting
somebody who who was already practicing
this that showed you maybe a way of
being that you hadn't
that hadn't occurred to you was possible
before what was your journey to this
practice of meditation and mindfulness
yeah so i think i was always someone who
kind of like questioned things growing
up um but i had a good friend in law
school who

(41:58):
got me into listening to the sam harris
waking up uh
meditation
podcast app and
that really got me thinking about things
and like ways i haven't thought about it
all kind of just made make sense but
just on a bigger scale like i think i
was really struggling with like always
being my head
kind of living on autopilot and not

(42:19):
really understanding that i was
and
hearing when i started to meditate and
start to just
you know meditate and
for defined as the practice of sitting
down and
for 20 or 10 minutes like putting on
something that was meditating too
realizing that whoa i
there's this just chatter that just

(42:40):
happens in my head and i'm like what
what the hell is that like because it
stops when you stop focusing on it or
you stop you know you stop giving
awareness to it or attention to it when
you first start meditating so that
i felt you know such bliss in those
times where i didn't have that chatter
so just kind of like that wanting to
have that more and more
and i do think i think and i think

(43:01):
andrew's talked about this
in some of his channels like the idea of
whether you need to physically sit down
to meditate to get that and kind of
maybe the dangers of
relying on meditation you know i
sometimes i'm like okay
this morning i have to do 10 minutes of
meditation because if i don't
how am i going to feel and it's you know
realizing okay well i can go and walk

(43:23):
and
find that idea of meditation and
presence just by walking around the city
or just doing things or where i am aware
and so i think just go back to original
question that's kind of how i got into
it um from a friend but it kind of led
me down a path of just realizing that i
didn't need to live in my head and there
was ways to live beyond that

(43:45):
very much like the just like the uh the
recognition of god or a genuine
spiritual experience as opposed to just
dogmatic belief
you you
it just makes sense all of a sudden
that's all you need like you you kind of
had this kick out the door maybe some
inspiration maybe out of necessity but
as soon as you felt that freedom to any

(44:06):
degree whatsoever that's it that's all
there is to it from now on it's like i
just want to carry that with me whatever
that was whatever that likeness is
that's what i want that's what if that's
available i'm going to take more of that
right and and that's when you start
becoming self-refining in your process
you start just keep continuing going
down that path and i think that's
something that religion unfortunately

(44:27):
lost
over time i've often thought about how
old world religion was very different
than it is now because we didn't have
necessarily all of the explanations for
things that we have now right like if
you look at the sun going down we're
like oh okay well that's you know a ball
of energy in the sky that you know we
rotate around we have all this
explanation but at one point when the

(44:48):
sun was going down we didn't know it was
coming up the next day and so the event
of it coming up was huge it was massive
to us right and it's kind of the same
with the idea of god is that especially
with old judaic belief it wasn't just
that we believe in god
it's that we feel
the presence of being
constantly it's it's the entire um

(45:10):
fabric of our lives we feel it in
everything we do everything is god
and that old world religion that old
world experience
is no longer the case now it's more
conceptual because we're more wrapped up
in our ideas of ourself we have more
narratives we have more uh dividing
lines right
so it's really interesting to me that

(45:30):
religion just kind of took philosophy
and and made it into a structure and
science is very much you know doing the
same thing where it's like we can we can
look at what's there but then we start
taking what we see and we make
assumptions about what that means
instead of just looking at what's there
and marveling at it and and having that
experience of just
oh wow i really don't know what's

(45:51):
happening but this is all kind of
amazing when i stop
judging it and allow myself to witness
it and that's why i always find it
interesting like jehovah's witnesses if
you think about it the
name is actually quite profound
they're watching god unfold they're
witnessing jehovah right and and so
it's very

(46:12):
realistic
if you look at the core elements of
where it came from it's just the
practice of mindfulness and meditation
that's all prayer is right prayer is
just self-dialogue
that's all you're doing right and and
you get to the point where you're no
longer having that dialogue you're no
longer convincing yourself everything's
going to be okay you're no longer
talking your way through your thoughts
you eventually just have faith and

(46:33):
humility you stop thinking about
yourself entirely and that is faith
right so advanced meditation and
advanced prayer
are exactly the same thing and ella i
wanted to start with you just because
again christian background when you're
praying do you find that you are
just talking to yourself or that you're
you're trying to align more with your

(46:54):
own wisdom or do you still sometimes
feel that you're getting a response back
from
something external or from a
deeper intelligence
that's interesting because i was just
thinking about that when you said
that prayer is talking to ourselves i
was like well i wonder
how i feel about that in like my process

(47:15):
or what happens when i'm talking to god
um
i guess i never really did prayer very
much when i was growing up
or pray very much i
said the prayer
at night to myself and maybe i would say
grace every once in a while but i didn't
ever have like my own moments i guess

(47:37):
partly because
i really didn't believe in it
i'll be honest when i was growing up
but now
i definitely just have like
self-check-in moments
when
i
can feel my body acting a certain way
it's usually like the physical that then
has me look

(47:58):
inward
that's how i can tell a lot of the times
because like the mind and the body are
connected
but
it's really just
taking a second to take a deep breath
and
you can kind of feel the energy leave
your body if that makes sense i really
do tie things back to
to physical because it helps me

(48:19):
actualize them and not just continue to
think and get caught in that trap of
ego and things like that
and also i'm sorry to be going on but i
was talking
when you guys were talking about fear
and identity
it just really made me think about
once you reach the point of the neutral

(48:39):
observer
that is kind of when you have the
opportunity to build off of that truth
and like become closer to love
but that also is where new anxiety can
start and you can get caught in a new
loop because you don't know what to do
next and i feel like i'm definitely
stuck there
um there's this band that i love though
the lead singer josh kiska he has this

(49:01):
quote he says
[ __ ] fear and live your intelligence
live your legend through the
intelligence of love
which is beautiful to me
because
that's kind of what i was talking about
on tick tock is i just follow love
because i feel like that's a universal
truth
and that's what makes me
feel the most connected

(49:23):
so why not
just try to do that as often as possible
you know
yeah that's that's awesome why not right
that's i i can very closely resonate
with you the idea of
kind of realizing that
you can do

(49:44):
there isn't like this path any longer
like this blueprint that you've been
told your entire life that is like
the blueprint
the blueprint for success or for living
a good life like i and i mentioned this
in discord i think yesterday just like
alan watts kind of comparison between

(50:05):
the spikes and the wiggles like my life
up until the last six months has been
super spiky like as spiky as it gets
like i had very
rigid routines i've always been like
pretty disciplined i knew
you know what college i wanted to go to
and like what i wanted to do there and
like i that was my focus through high

(50:27):
school wasn't like enjoying high school
it was like getting to the type of
school that i wanted to go to
and then once i got to college i think
it kind of like because that was just
such a focus for so long it wasn't like
it was a letdown like i really enjoyed
my time at college as well but i didn't
after that have this like same sort of

(50:50):
drive for the workforce because i think
i was kind of
lucky that i had some perspective
because a lot of kids from my school
kind of have more of that mindset in
college and they have like a specific
type of job in like banking or finance
or consulting they want to do and i knew
that i didn't want to spend my 20s like

(51:10):
you know working crazy hours but
when recently getting back to ella's
point of like not really knowing what to
do i remember like the last few months
and especially like two months ago i was
like
what the hell do i do and i had
an experience where i kind of like it
hit me really hard that you know none of

(51:32):
this
matters like in this ultimate sense that
i always lived my life in a certain
way thinking that like you know there
are specific things that matter and to
work towards and because of this i'll
feel better once i get here and here and
whatever
and
so that in itself is its own

(51:52):
very much its own prison but once you
get out of that it's like
a lot of times people are more
comfortable in their prison cells and
when you get out it's like very
uncomfortable because
it's not something you're used to
so once i was sort of out of that i was
like what the [ __ ] do i do now and then

(52:13):
it started to hit me more and more as i
started to do things that you know there
are things that i enjoy i love creating
content i love making videos i love
doing podcasts i love doing all these
things so
i just
do them and i do them more often i do
them for the sake of doing them and i
think that's the beauty in getting out

(52:33):
of that sort of prison cell is all of a
sudden
you're just experiencing life here and
now
doing things you enjoy for the sake of
doing them like there aren't
outcomes and that is sort of like living
in alignment with god being god and that
is
where you'll actually it's like being in
the river and flowing down the river as
opposed to resisting it or trying to go

(52:55):
faster than it or trying to get to the
edge because you're like so tired of
your prison cell and once you're there
it's like things just get
easier but
at first you know if you're in a river
and you've been swimming against it the
whole time and all of a sudden you start
to let go you're like oh i don't know
like am i going to be able to float am i
going to like flow properly is this

(53:16):
going to take me down this crazy thing
that i'm not ready for and once you get
more comfortable in that sort of flow it
happens but
again like ray talks about all the time
like don't judge yourself along the way
like things will happen
sort of as they should and and
there's just that degree of faith in
yourself that you know you will find

(53:37):
that balance and it may not happen
overnight but it does and everything
leading up to it you know every side
that you go on every extreme that you go
to on your way there
has a reason you know sort of like for
getting you there when you look back
like you'll be able to see it more
clearly though you may not always
in the moment i guess is just wait for

(53:59):
that moment of clarity it'll come back
eventually right but that that's it is
that you know at first
the uncertainty doesn't feel good and
often i'll get messages like how do i
deal with that you just do unfortunately
there's no how
um you just have to deal with the
uncertainty until as you said it starts
to refine its way out of you you start

(54:19):
to realize the less you think about
yourself the better you adapt to what's
happening and that's something that that
martial arts really taught me was as
soon as i'm thinking about myself or i'm
thinking about my opponent my entire
sensitivity for what's happening just
disappears
and so you know as you're saying we're
on the river and all of a sudden we stop
fighting the river and immediately we
almost reach for this idea of oh god but

(54:40):
what do i do now and then we've reached
for the eye and that's what causes us to
fight the river some more and so we kind
of have to go through this transition
period and i think it's really
interesting and i want to mention this
because mary i know recently um you
actually bit the bullet and started your
own youtube channel so
going through that experience making
your first videos um i'm sure that you

(55:02):
this is exactly what you went through
was the uncertainty of it pushing
yourself listening to all of that that
narrative that you told yourself about
how it's going to go how people might
react blah blah blah and then just
ignoring it and doing it nonetheless so
i would love to hear more about your
experience going through that
um yeah there's been multiple times that
i've thought about deleting everything

(55:22):
from my youtube channel um
but
when i do that i actually
decide to share the videos
instead and um
i think that i judge myself a lot when
i'm like re-watching them
and
um
i'm learning more and more to just let
myself post videos um without judging

(55:45):
because
people probably don't see what i'm
seeing anyway and they're probably like
getting something from it so i'm just
kind of
letting myself
post my about my experience in life
because
people might be able to relate to it so
yeah and do you find that as your videos

(56:06):
go by that that although those thoughts
are are still there because they will be
for a long time these habits don't go
away overnight do you find that it's
getting easier to remind yourself that
you can disregard that those thoughts
and those doubts that you can just go
right right but that's just thinking
yeah i think that's definitely happened

(56:28):
i've only posted like four
or so videos and
um
the more i go on the less scary it gets
there are some times that i'm just like
i'll cut out a whole part of the video
still because i'm still like i still
have anxiety about what people might
think
and um
but that's happening a lot less

(56:50):
and
yeah
it's feeling more natural
that's awesome that's what practice
makes perfect and i know uh ella as you
mentioned you're you're a musician and
and you've been you know
building um your your own band for a
little while now i know you've been
talking to me on tick tock and whatnot
do you find that that's something that

(57:11):
that you are still facing when you get
up on stage or when you have a
performance are you still dealing with
some of that that old narrative or if
you found a way that you can just push
past it and remind yourself like i've
dealt with all of that before
yes still dealing with it
definitely it's more like a feeling

(57:31):
of imposter syndrome
and
there's really really big effects like
societal effects when it comes to like
capitalism and how i'm going to support
myself
but when it comes to performing it's
always
what do people think about the way that
i sound and it's

(57:53):
always
if someone's saying something nice then
they're just trying to make me feel
better
so it's i have to check myself and
instead of looking at it from
well i'm sure that i'm sure it's fine
i'm sure it's this
just not having an opinion on it at all
and just doing it because i love it
so
that's really what i draw from

(58:15):
but
i still get stage fright i feel like
that's kind of
inevitable um but it's a good type of
nerves it's like an excited type and i
feel like it comes from a different
point now
that it's easier to get over and just
fall back into the music
so
that's awesome coming back to i don't

(58:36):
know right that's like i tell myself
that
so many times a day when i got caught up
in my own
thoughts and perceptions about myself
and you know the way things are the way
i feel like someone might be perceiving
me
it's just coming back to i don't know
it's not even that i have to you know go
through affirmations and reaffirm that i

(58:57):
am you know doing a great job and have
all this positivity kind of [ __ ]
going on in my head it's just like i
don't need anything in my head and i
don't know what is happening and you
know i still get i think
whenever i do like i'm a guest on
another podcast for example like there's
a degree of uncertainty and it's gotten

(59:18):
to the point that it barely comes up
anymore but there's still a little bit
and i'm still
kind of grateful that i get a little bit
of that because there's like something
there it's almost like
more on the side of excitement now
for it as opposed to just like you know
nothing really going on like i'm glad

(59:39):
that there's something there but i think
the best thing i ever realized about
that stuff and about nerves because i
used to get super
nervous especially about public speaking
was just like that it's okay to be
nervous like i don't have to fight those
feelings i don't have to make them go
away to do a good job like i can do a
great job while being nervous it's not

(01:00:00):
like this thing where the nerves have to
go away to do a good job like you can be
nervous
and do a good job and and the sooner
that you accept those nerves or feelings
or feelings of discomfort or uncertainty
the sooner they will pass through you
like they won't last forever and the
more you do it
you know the quieter they get and that's
sort of the idea of confidence that ray

(01:00:23):
and i were talking about on the last
podcast episode is like it comes down to
action and it's not even that you get to
a point of confidence it's just you get
to a point where there's no reason to be
afraid anymore so it's it's basically
the same thing but it's just the lack of
fear so why not do it why not do it
fully and dive in headfirst

(01:00:45):
exactly it's always interesting to me
it's it's kind of like
we have
the ability to just drop our
intelligence into any situation and
allow it to process but the processing
goes according to how clear we are which
is always according to how much we're
analyzing our progress
and so it's it's it's an act of faith
constantly right so

(01:01:05):
at this point in my life i'll be honest
i i almost never know what the hell is
happening and and i don't really try i
mean i have an idea in terms of oh okay
this is these are the influences in my
life but i never go out of my way to try
and feel like i know what's going to
happen past say an hour from now
right like i have a vague idea of what

(01:01:26):
the next hour of my life is going to
hold but i never over commit to the idea
that that's actually what it's going to
hold and so i always find myself in this
state of uncertainty and at first
i would habitually run from that right i
would habitually feel anxiety and stress
and i would tense and so this is why i
really liked what ella was saying
earlier about listening to your body

(01:01:47):
because your body is very very clear on
what it's experiencing if you can slow
down enough to actually tune into it if
you can slow down enough to have some
sensitivity for it you can feel the full
body clench
is typically is what i call it when you
are stressed when you are in fact you
know projecting something to fear and so
it just becomes

(01:02:08):
about
recognizing that
me trying to feel safe
does not necessarily help me deal with
my fear
right all it does is help me feel safe
right whereas my intelligence is now
split between the problem and trying to
make me feel safe instead of just
dealing with the problem

(01:02:28):
and so we almost have to embrace that
fear and embrace that panic embrace that
uncertainty and do it often enough
where
we face something and our only solution
is well let me just get in there and see
what happens
and that's it it's not you know i got
this but let's find out
right so there's not even any certainty
in that

(01:02:49):
right it's more of just enthusiastic
enthusiastically with being willing to
see what's possible and just putting
yourself in there
so it's it's an interesting thing in
that
we try to make it
this 10-step progress or 10-step process
and i know i've taken numerous courses
on how to be more efficient and how to
be more able to be more confident to be

(01:03:10):
a better speaker and at the end of the
day it was just
just go in there and screw it up a few
times you'll get it
right you just have to be willing to
not judge yourself for screwing up a few
times
right and that's that's the hardest bit
that's that that habitual panic as we
start to drift down the river right it's
like okay i'm just gonna let let go and

(01:03:30):
see what happens that is not what i
expected to happen and then we start to
grip and it's like nope just let it
happen just go with it continue down
that path you know
it's the counter-intuitive thing to do
because you always want to try and get a
grasp on what's happening but as soon as
you do you lose all sensitivity to it
yeah that's very true and i've also

(01:03:52):
noticed that no matter how many times i
come to the realization that i'm the
neutral observer when i have those
thoughts of and like that that panic
when stuff like that happens
i assume that it's coming from that
perspective and i need to take it
seriously if that makes sense
so
that is like another loop you could get

(01:04:13):
stuck in when
you're
it's like reality in motion
like you have these experiences after
you come to this awareness
but you still have to constantly
reevaluate it
and all the thoughts that start to come
up when something might happen like
those thoughts of fear anxiety
that's not you

(01:04:34):
it's
the ego
but i know that we i'm kind of repeating
just things that other people have said
but this is like a real life thing that
happens for everybody and me especially
like that's where i'm i'm coming up with
this from like my experiences
and the fact that we all
go through similar things like it's just

(01:04:55):
really important i think to address that
aspect of it
absolutely and i just want to comment
quickly on what you just said because
we're all saying the same things
there's no real choice right i said this
to andrew before is that what we're
talking about is the relationship
between the observer and the observed
every single person who gets to to the

(01:05:16):
clarity or to the point where they can
have that conversation start saying the
same things because it's the same
subject right even jesus said there's
nothing new under the sun something
along those lines it's because this is
always the same conversation right i've
had this many times before in that
i've also had imposter syndrome
several times even just being on tick

(01:05:37):
tock i stopped myself going yeah but i'm
not really saying anything that's not
obvious then i remind myself right it
wasn't always obvious
right so say it anyway but yeah it's
it's really interesting you get uh your
hand up there for a second
sorry i was just um applauding
just because i said it in the chat
earlier

(01:05:58):
but
i have so many thoughts and
you you have a way to like put them into
words and i know that that comes from
experience and always
like
you just made so many videos you have
your podcasts and i've learned your
stories about how you came to this
explanation so you have much more
experience on it than i do

(01:06:19):
but
when i hear you say it it like
helps me better understand it so it's
like i'm gaining
years like exponentially compared to the
rate that you learned it like i'm just
soaking it all up if that makes sense
absolutely and i
i'm
so happy to hear that because ultimately
that's that's why i do this i've often

(01:06:41):
said to my wife and my daughter that
this is possibly the most fun i've ever
had just doing this podcast and making
tech talks and talking to everybody
because
you're all me and i know that like i
know that so clearly it's not a belief
it's nothing like that it's just i just
know you're me and i know when i was
going through all this
there was nothing there for me to listen

(01:07:03):
to there was nobody to talk to there was
there was no conversation to be had and
so just being able to do all this just
being able to throw it out there and
just
to
it's funny because you'll look at it as
well you're really good at wording this
and i look at it as i've just pissed off
a lot of people over time rightly it's
just it's just refined over 20 years of
stumbling and and smacking my head

(01:07:24):
against walls and realizing i could have
went around them but uh yeah no i'm
overjoyed because
we're all growing together and
this is the perfect example of that
i'm not saying anything that hasn't been
said before and the fact is is that i'm
not saying anything that i haven't said
to other people
but you're the one getting it all of you
are getting it because you're the one

(01:07:44):
choosing to so it's it's it's free will
and predeterminism right i'm just
throwing seeds you're the ones choosing
to pick them up
you said the word fun and it just made
me think about something i've been like
thinking about
recently um
just like kind of reflecting back on the
difference of childhood versus now and

(01:08:06):
realizing like i'm in the same body
still me that was i think maybe this
came out because i was home over
christmas like watching home videos with
my family it's weird to see yourself and
be like that's that's me
and you see how like carefree you are
and how blissful you are and how
no matter what you're doing

(01:08:26):
your base state is just pure like
presence i mean i i i don't i go back to
when i'm four or five years old i don't
think i was sitting there like in my
head wondering what's gonna happen
tomorrow or what job i'm gonna get or
how i'm gonna pay for a mortgage or any
of this stupid [ __ ] we all worry about
and it's
i guess it's
fascinating to think about how

(01:08:47):
you go from like the purest happiest
most blissful human being on this
to like be existing at that age and then
you get kind of thrown into this world
that kind of like
hurts you or damages you and makes you
think you can't live and have fun
as a i'm 28 years old i can't have fun
it's a 28 year old responsibilities or

(01:09:09):
35 or 40. so i think it's interesting to
think about
why
we think that we can't just why can't it
just be like
fun why can't all this just be fun even
if it isn't you know it's
where did these ideas come that this is
bad or this is good it's just it gets so
ingrained in your head and
as i like three years old you don't you

(01:09:29):
certainly don't think that
playing with mud or eating it is bad or
good you just want to do it you know
what i mean i just it's interesting to
think about how that progresses as you
get older and how it kind of gets
deterio you know
tainted
if you will
yeah it's pretty much just like getting
back to that mentality of being a child

(01:09:50):
and i find it so fascinating like now
when i'm around
younger kids and like children i'm like
fascinated because they are
they are
what every adult is striving to be like
a child like
existence where they are playing not a
care in the world and people will say

(01:10:10):
people will argue you know like bills
taxes blah blah blah blah and it's like
sure if you want to hold on to those
things and complain about those things
your entire life and like make that the
ban of your existence like i can't stop
you i'm not going to force you to stop
complaining about that but you don't
have to and that's where it comes down
to and so when i'm around

(01:10:30):
like kids and i i find it very strange
how some adults treat children also it's
just like this
thing that is like so much lesser than
them and they like do the you know child
like voices and it's like there's so
much more intelligence
expressed through this child
than you are expressing right now like

(01:10:52):
you are
an embodiment of a program essentially
for a lot like so many adults or just
and i i see that sometimes walking
around new york i'll catch a
conversation
where it just seems it feels so scripted
and it's so
strange how
it's like they're not even

(01:11:14):
they're saying what they think they
should say based on the situation based
on what they've been taught almost as
adults is what i'm saying and then
children are just like saying random
[ __ ] like children are just like you
know looks like they're tripping all the
time just like running around almost
which they almost are pretty much the
equivalent of that um but yeah i find

(01:11:35):
that relationship between
you know children and just that sort of
existence to
adults we just think we have to be
adults and adults or just grown-up
children who stopped playing and stopped
having so much fun and started taking
everything so seriously all the time
thinking that they had

(01:11:55):
all this responsibility when yeah like
there are certain
certainly a lot of responsibilities more
so as an adult than as a child but you
don't have to
make that like the core of your
existence you can have those things
while simultaneously kind of keeping
that
playful sort of mindset and you know

(01:12:16):
even people like i know a lot of people
with a lot of
money too like adults who are very well
off and like they just keep kind of
striving for that same stuff instead of
like
being like oh [ __ ] i have way more than
i could ever need like let's go play for
20 years you know that sort of thing
like it just doesn't really happen
because i i feel like a lot of people

(01:12:36):
don't think that's even an option almost
which is kind of funny because i mean it
technically should be organically how we
develop i mean i i talked about this in
discover transcendence about jane
levinger and her steps of ego
development which was talked about back
in the 50s right
and so we start in this state of
selfishness and and disconnection and we
kind of learn how to get an idea of

(01:12:57):
ourselves which suits some of our fears
but then we start to get an idea of the
world around us and how to manipulate
that in order to keep ourselves safe and
all that makes sense if you think about
it as babies we're very we're very
vulnerable as children we're very easy
to hurt
and so we start to learn
mechanisms to protect ourselves as we
develop as people as we start to to get
bigger in our bodies as well and we get

(01:13:19):
to this point where now we have a firm
idea of who we are and a firm idea of
everybody else and that's how we
interact with the world but we're
supposed to get to a point past that
stage four and five and beyond of ego
development where
we start to question that idea of
ourself as well
we don't just hold on to it as truth for
the certainty of it but we start to

(01:13:39):
question it we start to live more in
ambiguity and we start to be able to
empathize with people who don't
necessarily relate to how we identify
right and this is supposed to be a
natural part of our progression
as human beings like this is back in the
50s she goes on to describe like 10
stages of ego development
but if you look at our society
if you look at the mentality that we

(01:14:01):
reward in high school and college and
university especially
we never leave stage three and four we
never really get beyond the idea
of the idea of ourself
and using that to judge and compare
ourselves to everybody else and so we
get stuck on that and our society is
built on that mentality so we never
really evolved past where we should be

(01:14:22):
around the ages of 12 to 14
right because that's the mentality that
makes this system run the way it does
because if we were to evolve past that
mentality suddenly capitalism would
start to fall apart
nationalism would start to fall apart
because those are all based on over
commitment to our ego so it's just

(01:14:42):
changing the environment and that slowly
changes all of the participants which
changes the environment
and that's what we're all a pro a part
of that's the process that we're in
right now is we're all changing and in
that we're changing the environment for
others and then they're changing and
changing the environment for us so it's
a feedback loop
it makes me think of the

(01:15:04):
i think it's alan watts it's probably
been analogous but my different conveyor
belt you see it's like you see all the
kids in the conveyor about going getting
put into their school and college and
get their degree and then they're going
to the
job and then you're like getting your
house and then you're getting married
and you're
having kids and then you're finally
retired and then you're like oh great

(01:15:26):
like now i'm 65 or 70 like now let me
enjoy my life and then you die in
whatever 10 20 30 years if you're even
fortunate enough to live to that age and
it's just kind of like i go back to
capitalism i i personally struggle with
it i work i'm a lawyer and i work at a
law firm and
it's like

(01:15:46):
sometimes i'm just sitting there it's
like i don't
you know hopefully none of the people i
work with here though so i'm just like i
don't want to wear nice clothes and i
don't want to sit here
in an outfit that feels fake to me and i
don't want to sit and do things that
feel like they have no meaning and
everyone's so serious and people are so
stressed and
it and this is why i struggled like do i
want to live in new york city is this
you know is the environment you live in

(01:16:07):
can i ever truly
reach that state and you could argue
you're not trying to reach anything
because you're here already but like can
i ever really
feel the way i want to feel in the
current job i'm in or the current
environment and then when it's just so
perpetuated
perpetuating these things i don't want
to
be and it feels like everywhere you go

(01:16:27):
in
new york city like everyone gets up and
before kobe you know put on your suit go
to the office everyone crammed on the
subway get to work
stay in this small little box until five
six seven o'clock go home and repeat and
just like what kind of life is that you
know it's just
it's hard to not it's hard to partake in
capitalism and

(01:16:47):
we all want to reap its benefits without
kind of questioning it and trying to
understand how you can live in a world
and you know for those two things to
co-exist
that's a great question i mean i i
wrestle with the same thing i have for i
have for a long time because obviously
in my mentality i'm not a huge fan of
money or or the the rat race that goes
along with it and so

(01:17:09):
over time i've had to make various
different decisions uh based on on what
i i felt was right for me i know at one
point i had a pretty well paying
administrative job for a company and
throughout working there i started
discovering that their practices weren't
necessarily um
ringing with integrity let's just put it
that way they were ripping off their

(01:17:30):
clients and and i found out and i i
brought it up to the boss and the boss
very much told me well
that's just the way the world works
welcome to capitalism and if you don't
like it there's the door into which my
response was all right i'm going out the
door
and i quit my job and and
i know that day walking back home um i
was in full blown panic

(01:17:52):
i didn't know what i was going to do i i
i kept thinking to myself jesus what did
i just do to myself like was that worth
it
and years later looking back yeah it was
absolutely worth it because although i
panicked although it made things
difficult for a short period of time it
helped me align better with the next job
that i found which of course helped me
align better with the next place that i
ended up in and that led me to move

(01:18:13):
around to different communities where my
energy and my mentality did align better
over time to the point where now i live
in on vancouver island in a community of
people that are very much at a pace that
aligns well with with the way i think
and the way i live and that wasn't
through trying to get here it's just
kind of organically happened over time

(01:18:33):
as i followed the changes that were
happening within me and i allowed that
to change my environment regardless of
how uncertain that was
so it's
it's something that happens over time
that's the best i can say is that
you feel like you're not supposed to be
there because ultimately you're not
always going to be there and you're just
in the process of allowing that to

(01:18:54):
unfold and so i i always try to remind
myself to exercise patience and to
remind myself that my perspective of
what i'm going through isn't necessarily
what i'm going through and that
sometimes there are lessons that
that i still have to learn but that said
i also try and remember this is uh this
book that i read when i was younger it's
called uh magician master uh it's by an

(01:19:15):
author named remedy feist and there's
this point where
the main characters lot his memory is
gone and he's in this university for
magicians and all that and it's a
fantasy book um
and he has no memory of why he's there
just every day he has to go through the
same lessons the same lessons the same
lessons and nobody says okay this is
this is how you leave this is how you
graduate and then one day he just

(01:19:36):
decides
my place is no longer here
and he leaves
and that was the graduating ceremony
that was the one thing that he needed to
do in order to move on in his in his
lessons and move on in his education he
had to decide this is no longer my place
and so as much as it's important to
practice patients and practice getting
out of your way and getting rid of your

(01:19:57):
conflict with what is it's also
important to take responsibility and
decide
when it's no longer your place
yes i completely agree
i
struggle with it very much because i
turned 18 in the pandemic and all of a
sudden i have to be an adult
and i want to be independent and

(01:20:20):
live on my own
and be able to do music at the same time
but in order to bridge that gap you need
money and i feel like
capitalism is always the elephant in the
room
when we talk about these things because
it's like
i am
coming to this awareness
but there's still these things that i

(01:20:41):
can't control that i have to participate
in in order to
achieve certain things
so
i don't know it's just kind of hard to
deal with but you just have to keep
going i guess
[Music]
yeah yeah i think

(01:21:02):
i don't know i don't know if this is
like
gonna be helpful at all but i think
a lot of times and i i feel like oh
you're in a pretty good mentality in
this state but a lot of people get
caught up when
they talk about you know
having to make money and all these
things they have like these ideas of

(01:21:22):
what they need and they never really
take the time to
think about what they actually
need and what they actually
want and
something i did that helped me a lot
with like i've always been pretty frugal
and pretty easily able to save money and
not just like spend it mindlessly on

(01:21:43):
things but something that really helped
me
was
i think it was like two years ago i
wrote down it was like on a piece of
paper
drew a line in the middle and it was
things that i wrote on it things that
make me happy that cost money and things
that make me happy that don't cost money
and what i found was
the one side of things that don't cost

(01:22:04):
money was like way longer it was like 10
times as long the things that cost money
were like
traveling
skiing
going to the beach like going out with
friends and that was like kind of the
extent
of it so it actually helped me because i
was almost on the other side of a lot of

(01:22:24):
people in that
it i needed to like convince myself
to spend money as opposed to like
convince myself to not spend money on
things like there were things
especially my first year living in new
york i
lived as if i was making probably a
third of the money that i was actually
making
at least when i was with myself i wasn't

(01:22:46):
like super cheap when i was my friends
because i didn't you know want to be
that guy but it helped me realize there
were probably things that first year
where i would have derived some value
out of them that were worth spending
money on it like i just didn't because i
was like i'm not spending any additional
money on myself
and so that actually helped me realize

(01:23:06):
like you know if there is a weekend trip
that my friends are going on like
i am okay going on that because it
checks like two of my boxes on my list
of things
that you know i
am okay with spending money on that like
you know make me happy um but things
that weren't on it that i noticed more
clearly were things like clothes so i

(01:23:26):
like i get a couple things for like
christmas my birthday in terms of new
clothes but you know like i bought the
t-shirts i get are like 10 or 12 bucks
and i got like 10 of them and it was
like a big decision to spend like you
know get 10 new t-shirts so i more
clearly saw that like that's not
something
that
makes me happy so like i was able to put
that more in perspective so i think just

(01:23:49):
for a lot of people and this may not
directly apply to you ella but when
you're thinking about ways you know you
have to start making money it's also
important to keep in mind like the
things that you don't have to spend
money on as well and i know it's like
probably easier to keep that mind if you
don't have very much money at all but a
lot of people like kind of get to this

(01:24:10):
middle ground where they are making
decent amount of money but then they
start spending more money and as they
make more money they spend more money
instead of taking a second to realize
like
they have enough and they don't have to
you know keep spending money on
you know random [ __ ] i think something
that helps too is just like
not caring so much about other people's

(01:24:30):
opinions i think a lot of people get
caught up in spending a lot of money
to appease other people's opinions of
them or make other people think higher
more highly of them so that's another
aspect that actually leads to being able
to like save a lot more money is like
not giving a [ __ ] what people think
about you
um but i think taking that time to
really

(01:24:51):
like
be
thought worthy about what you know
actually kind of makes you happy and the
things that you are willing to spend
money on and that you may realize you
don't actually
you know drive much value out of that
you don't have to spend money on so i
just like a little bit of perspective
there um from someone who's like you
know recently gotten into you know the

(01:25:13):
workforce and like making
my own money and and living on my own
for a good few years now
and i will pass this on because this was
a bit of advice that was passed on to
people by my sifu was that
don't save your money organize your
money that was that was the advice that

(01:25:33):
he gave me and it was very much it took
me a little while to figure out what
that meant but
basically i was in the in the practice
of saving my money away and then instead
of doing that i started investing my
money into assets so um i ran a web
design business at one point so instead
of saving you know the extra thousand
bucks i got from that contract i went
and i invested that in
prepaying for the server charges for the

(01:25:54):
next three years so that way i wouldn't
have to worry about that bill as it
renewed so all of a sudden i was
organizing my money and putting it into
place where it was covering my expenses
early which allowed me to start saving
more and putting it towards my other
endeavors which
inevitably became my life coaching
business and my graphic design business
and things like that but had i just
saved my money i would have never put

(01:26:16):
that money into those things that
inevitably led to more expansion later
so that's that's something that's always
helped me to keep in mind as well um on
that note
capitalism itself is still a product of
of the mentality of the ego of control
and division and all of that other
stuff and so that's something that's
inevitably going to get phased out of

(01:26:37):
our society as we continue to evolve and
grow individually and collectively and
i'm not going to get too much into that
subject right now because i know andrew
and i have some plans for season two in
terms of trying to come up with other
ways to
bring some financing and some funding to
unifying projects and groups and
charities and things like that

(01:26:59):
we'll talk about that in i think the
next episode of season two so i'll leave
that there we are coming up to the hour
and a half mark and and i know that it
typically if i don't mention something
at this
at this point we'll go for another hour
um so we're going to come to a point
where we wrap up here i just want to
address everybody and say thank you so
much for being here this conversation
has just been amazing i've been having

(01:27:19):
so much fun and i just want to wrap up
with everybody having one last question
or one last thing to say um and we'll
start with you sophie
um i guess i kind of want to say
something on the band of what we've been
talking about and i think
it's interesting to kind of take a
step back at a a lens of cultural shift
right now going on i i mean

(01:27:41):
i'm in my later 20s but people my age
people younger like
this whole idea of
great resonation or the idea of
you know
i'm really into crypto and web 3 and
things like that this idea of
decentralization and having a world that
is not run by you know the big middle

(01:28:03):
man the big bank the big whatever so
maybe to you ella just is like someone
who's 18 there's there's tons of hope
that we're going to enter into
you know bridge leave exit slowly slowly
and slowly but also pretty quickly and
enter perhaps a new world where you can
it doesn't really matter where you went
to school or doesn't really matter what
you know what kind of if you have gucci

(01:28:26):
shoes on when you go to the office what
matters is that you
are making an effort to
contribute to something and kind of you
know follow your dreams and i think that
might sound a little bit you know
oh follow your dreams but i think it
actually is coming to petition now as
i've seen it happening on this you know
these decentralized proponents of crypto

(01:28:46):
and everything like that um
not financial advice of course
i love it the
term follow your dreams i grew up on
hearing that disney channel that was
kind of my childhood
um but you never really think that it's
possible
so
you just kind of have to
go with your gut and do it do what you

(01:29:08):
love and
regardless of money
if you just look at it from that that's
a really
like helpful way to drive you to keep
going
and the money will come even if you know
i'm working to gig or not working at all
i'll still be singing i'll still be
pursuing music you know

(01:29:29):
absolutely and another thing i try to
keep in mind is you know energy in
energy out you don't have to worry about
how that energy is going to come back
out but it does that that's the simplest
equation to life i've ever figured out
is that just just put in just keep
putting in it'll come back around you
don't have to worry about how or when it
will
and mary

(01:29:50):
i do have one question
um
do you think that this can just as
easily become a religion or
what do you think about that
i'm really glad you asked that question
because andrew and i have been talking
about this and
the answer is ultimately
yes if
if the participants don't keep the

(01:30:11):
spirit of it of a
spirit of it alive so
andrew and i have talked about this how
often what ends up happening is you end
up with a hierarchy where you have
people who are more awake and they're
guiding other people and that can't
happen here this has to be about
everybody questioning all the time and
so
if anybody ever does try to put
themselves in a leadership in a
leadership position where they're

(01:30:32):
dictating the truths and the insights
and everybody's just expected to listen
i would love for the audience to just
start questioning them until they sit
down
and recognize that they're they're in in
it like everybody else right and that's
that that i think is going to be
a big focus this season
is in just reminding people that
this is on you

(01:30:52):
each and every one of us are the the
universe as a whole we're not separate
right so you can't look to somebody else
to guide you
you have to guide you you can look to
other people for insights and lessons
because they are you
but the choice is on you at the end of
the day and so if we build this around
that if we continue to tell people like
don't trust anybody don't trust me don't

(01:31:13):
trust andrew don't don't don't believe
anything at face value just keep
questioning you'll always end up back in
the present in the uncertainty and in
that state of humility and faith and if
we can do that
i think it's going to do just fine but
somebody asked me recently
what would you call this and my answer
was immediately nothing nothing because
as soon as you do that it becomes an
identity as soon as you start to label

(01:31:35):
it something it becomes a new religion
it becomes a new way to define yourself
and so a big part of that is just
keeping all of that in mind
yeah no no rules right and there is no
should
so there's not like guidelines to how to
you know exist properly and when you
realize these understandings there's the

(01:31:57):
understandings in itself is the lack of
needing guidelines and realizations of
you know your
god within you know you are
it experiencing itself here and now
always and as you know we all are and
and we are i am you so there's i think
there's just less

(01:32:18):
ego in that and the buildup of you know
the hierarchy and and
the
separation is usually a lot of times
where
those religions really get built from
but you know as long as just we keep we
keep questioning we get a little bit
more comfortable in the uncertainty and
then less comfortable in the uncertainty

(01:32:39):
and back and forth and back and forth
and you know keep questioning each other
i think
i think it'll be
all right
absolutely well as we can see from this
conversation it's
it's just going to continue to
organically grow so long as we all take
it seriously enough that that you know
it's on us but we don't take it so
seriously that it becomes a structure

(01:33:00):
and a need to get anywhere right that's
the whole thing as long as we're not
trying to aspire to god
we should be fine but it's just about
being self-honest and being vulnerable
and and being willing to let down your
boundaries so that way we can all grow
together as always right so i just want
to say thank you to everybody again i
really appreciate you being here for the

(01:33:21):
round table number one we're going to
continue to do this through season two
and season three as we continue of
course and we're going to add some more
stuff as we go but this was just a
perfect first round table it's just a
great conversation we're going
stop recording here in a minute and
we'll hang out and chat for a bit more
um but thank you
yeah that was awesome yeah

(01:33:44):
thank you guys

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