December 3, 2023 • 35 mins
Calling all Dungeon Masters and RPG enthusiasts, today's show is a treat just for you. We're thrilled to have Jay, a seasoned map-maker, join us as we tackle the beautiful complexity of designing battle maps for tabletop role-playing games. Brace yourself for an engaging discussion on the importance of clear paths, adequate cover, and the role of the game's setting in your map design.
We didn't stop there. We ventured into the labyrinth of designing dungeons and combat maps, highlighting the dramatic impact of multiple exits in boss fights and the immersive potential of starting players off the map. Jay also shared his favorite tools for map-making, from dry-erase maps to bespoke programs like Dungeon Alchemist and online platforms like Roll20 and World Engine.
Our conversation took a thrilling turn when we delved into the contentious terrain of traps in Dungeons & Dragons. From managing players who make rash decisions to designing escape routes for those unforeseen events, our lively debate had it all. We agreed on one thing though - the importance of maintaining a balance and ensuring open communication with players. So, grab your dice, pull up a chair, and immerse yourself in our wonderful world of map-making! You're bound to walk away with some game-changing ideas.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. If you are interested in seeing more content like this check out our YouTube! We also post weekly game articles on our Patreon and have an active Discord community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Alright, welcome back to our next episode of DMI.
Today is gonna be a really,really fun one for me.
I absolutely adore designingbattle maps, and that's gonna be
our topic for today.
Today.
I've got Jay with me yet again,as per normal.
Yeah, I know Sometimes maybeSometimes, maybe when you have
those days you do, battle mapscan be really complex, and I
(00:21):
think that they're veryadaptable for basically every
situation.
I don't know.
I don't like big battle maps,though.
Personally.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So for those big battle maps to me this is one of
my.
I've seen some people do it,where they, because you get a
castle siege or something as abattle map, a one, the normal,
what one inch by one inch isfive feet, it's like one inch is
30 feet and they do thesemassive, almost warhammer type
(00:52):
combats instead of doing anormal one just because then you
can have those big picturefights.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Absolutely, and that's a good idea.
For every battle map, though,there's gotta be like key
staples.
So what would be your keystaples for every single battle
map?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So, for me, one of the things I always try to
include is the path, because fora battle map, there's an
intended path for your enemy andfor your party to take, whether
that be a literal curvy road oranything like that because
sometimes you'll have a fightthat takes place on a road.
So you're expecting okay,they're gonna come from this
side, the other team's gonna beon this side and here's where
(01:32):
they're gonna meet and makingsure those inner areas where
people are gonna be fightinghave a little more a simple
complexity as opposed to well,there's 27 bushes in this area
where we're all going to befighting, and kind of leaving
these areas where this is wherea fight is going to be at and
(01:55):
this is where the melee of thefight will be, and leaving that
space open enough for yourplayers and for your monsters
and little friends to make theirway and have their fun in the
fight.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
See, for me, I actually really like to include
more cover and have less openspaces, because I feel like it
creates more cinematic moments,almost and at least when I play
with people, everybody's lookingfor that legless cinematic
moment where they can jump offof a cliff and shoot somebody
with an arrow.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Which the big thing is, though.
Making sure, especially ifyou're doing a little less
physical, if you only have agrid or something making sure
those areas aren't overlycomplicated to where every turn
is gonna be.
How far is the nearest enemyfrom me?
Yeah, how Where's the nearestcover?
And then you have to keep allof that either already drawn or
(02:53):
in mind, while your players arealso trying to keep it in mind,
and both create this image ofthe map.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And that's kind of one of those things.
Also, it's like it depends ifyou are doing an actual physical
battle map.
If you're not doing a physicalbattle map, it's probably easier
to give less cover and not belike there are 25 around you.
That being said, if you'realready a pre-drawing the map,
just some little squiggles forpeople to hide behind.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, you always wanna add something to make sure
every ability can be used andmake sense to be used, for
instance the Rogue's cunningaction, for, like hide, I stab
him and I just hide right behindhim and they can't see me they
won't know I'm here.
The Rogue should be able to,like, duck behind something,
(03:41):
duck under something, and kindof be able to be sneaky without
overly complicating it In mymind at least, because if it's
too complicated, then it's gonnabe too complicated for everyone
.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, like there's the Druid spell on I know it's
in a couple other spell lists aswell, I just know it's in Druid
Pass without a trace.
It makes no sense to passwithout a trace and then you
magically walk through an entirejust plains and nobody notices
you're following them.
That doesn't make thematicsense to me, so that's why I
(04:13):
always kind of like try to addmore cover rather than less.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, you wanna include it.
It's just a you don't wannaovercrowd is the big thing, and
it can be easy, especially ifyou have an area where, as they
say in like movies, the deathpit where everyone's gonna die.
You don't want that space to befull of stuff, but you want it
to feel not empty.
It's a weird middle ground too.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Now to kind of keep that death pit from happening,
where literally everyone diesthere.
If you're gonna have cliffs andwhatnot, personally I think you
have to have more cover.
If you're gonna have likecliffs and hard terrain that
people are gonna have to climbCause otherwise you go to
climate and you've already takensix shots as you're trying to
climb it, If you don't make thatfirst climb, you're done, it's
(04:59):
over, no questions asked.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh yeah, I'm just making sure.
It also is going to be highlydependent on what type of area
you're in.
If you're on the road to thebig city and you get jumped by
bandits, it's probably gonna bepretty empty there.
Might there'll be some cover tothe sides, but in that main
space there's gonna be emptinessand that's where, like, your
(05:23):
fighter's gonna probably end upbeing.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And even if you can like consider like, for example,
the D&D movie that battlefieldscene that they showed was
really great.
That being said, it was veryreminiscent of like a World War
II battle scene where there weretrenches and whatnot and
there's gonna be death zones inthat like regardless.
But if you're fighting in justlike a little village or a
bandit out camp, that's a verydifferent story and you need to
(05:47):
add a lot more cover, because nobandit camp or no village is
going to just have no places tohide.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, especially if you're in like a village or camp
.
Your camps are gonna beorganized but they aren't going
to be clean.
So you have these clearpathways on your maps, but by a
pathway there's gonna be alittle booth.
You know, maybe it's where theyhave a shop or it's a bandit
camp where the you know weirdold guy with the ladle of soup
(06:18):
is to hand out all the soup andyou can duck behind those and
use those as cover as well.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And if you're gonna like fight in a little village,
I mean somebody's grandma's gota rose bush that your players
can duck behind.
And I think that that is agreat image in my head because
if they fail that stealth roleagainst the old person, I can
just imagine like one of thosescenes of get off my lot as
they're trying to survive Justin the middle of an actual fight
.
(06:44):
I can imagine that that could bereally amusing, but there's so
many ways to include cover.
I think that cover, though, isincredibly important to remember
, because if you don't giveenough, your party just gets
TPK'd and with a bunch ofabilities, like in some feats.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I that are, I'm, they're still around a little
bit, at least where it's youignore Half cover, the three
quarters cover.
By not including cover it'sthen making those feats actively
useless.
And something I like to addthat can add some cover and Kind
(07:21):
of change the battlefield alittle bit as multiple heights
on your map where, oh you're,especially if you're in like a
tap, like a building.
It's not going to be a one floorbuilding, no upper areas
necessarily.
It could be even if but if it'slike a dungeon or anything like
that there can be upper levelswhere you can have something
standing there.
(07:41):
Your party can get up there anduse it as a like vantage point
and making it a little moreengaging for them as well.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's kind of an interesting point, because it
leads into Something I wanted totalk about, which is, when you
have multiple, when you havethose indoor combats, should
there be multiple entrance ways?
Should there be ways for yourCharacters to escape in case
something goes wrong, or do youjust have them walk into a death
room where there's one way inand one way out and if it gets
(08:10):
blocked they're screwed?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
inside.
It's for me at least, it's veryParticular on what they're
going into.
If you're going into like, saylike, because this is an
campaign, I've been watching achurch of some kind where the
you know evil emperors beingcrowned or the evil king is
(08:33):
having a wedding with somerandom person, I don't know.
There's probably going to beone or two entrances or they're
all going to be in the same areaand by using those entrances
and you want to either leavethem open or lock them,
depending on where this is inyour story, because if it's your
big final fight, you don't wantyour party to run away and the
(08:57):
party isn't going to want to runaway.
So by making it so now theycan't, it makes the battle map
feel more Confining, which canadd to that suspense for
everyone.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
And I think with with final boss fights, definitely
those situations where they onlyneed one exit.
That's very true for me, unlessit's like a really small village
.
I tend to try to include aslike a staple and this is just
like my own Funny brain math Iinclude three ways out from
every situation.
So like, let's say, they'refighting in a tavern, there's
(09:34):
three ways out of the tavernthere's the front entrance, then
there's the one where you haveto go through the kitchen and
then there's the one that's likeback through the pantry and
then through the wine cellar andthen through this, that and the
other, so that my players don't, if they have to run away,
they're not trapped, but alsothey don't just have like three
in one room.
Because I feel like, if I thinkabout real buildings and I'm
(09:55):
trying to add that immersionMost places don't have just one
exit.
Usually they have a couple,just in case of a fire or
something, and I know that's notas historically accurate, but I
feel like, especially with whatwe grew up with, it makes it
feel more real because it's morelike what we know.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, and it's when designing buildings, especially
if you're designing like adungeon.
This is an issue I have with alot of dungeons Is they don't
make sense based on howbuildings work.
If you ever walk into abuilding, right, there's going
to be a hallway and every roomis going to be connected to that
(10:30):
hallway.
That's just how buildingsfunction normally Given.
If you're making a dungeon toprotect something, that's not
how it's going to work.
But if you're a bad guy'sliving in a dungeon, it should
be functioning similarly to ahouse, and that doesn't mean
(10:50):
there's not going to be layers,but it should be very
traversable to where an entrancecan't be blocked fully as Far
as like oh well, you can cutthrough this space and cut back
around and get out.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
So I think dungeons are something where I I would
say that their own Beast almostoh yeah they're very much their
own special thing, because thereshould be multiple ways out of
a dungeon.
There should also be likedungeons are almost this thing
to me where they're, they shouldbe treated like they're a maze
Basically, and you can get lostin them really easily.
(11:26):
But the deeper you go, the lesschances for escape you have,
the more you're stuck in,crammed into those, because it
should become become more like adeath pit the deeper that you
go.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And for what I try to do.
For if I'm designing a dungeonis I try to make it like Like
someone whose house you've neverbeen in and that's just super
weirdly to set up.
So it's a little confusing, alittle like chaotic to you
because you don't know what it'sset up as, but it makes still
functions and makes sense tosomebody who's looking at a
(11:59):
house, especially if it's likethe bad guys castle.
There's going to be thesechambers that are down paths and
down offshoots, but there'sgoing to be that central area
where a lot of it comes togetherand you might have to go
through a little bit to get tothat space.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
So when I design a dungeon, I think of the old
German Castles, where there maybe four doors on every room
leading into a different room,but if you go too far in, you're
getting lost, regardless of howwell you think you knew your
path.
Um, and that's how I builddungeons is I want there to be a
ton of choices, and thosechoices eventually you'll be
(12:35):
like was I here before?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Where am?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I and unless you're really paying attention to the
map, I want to confuse myplayers even in real life,
looking and being like it'sbasically a maze for me.
Um, but I I do want to movekind of away from dungeons
because, honestly, I don't knowabout you.
But I think we could talk for awhole hour just on dungeon
theory.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Dungeon theory is fun , we should make a series and
this is uh, as of this recordingbeing like claim what's ours
now called dungeon theory Matpatcan't steal it, we're taking it
and we're making a dungeonpodcast.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Oh, okay, okay, but yeah, no, um, with dungeons,
they're always super insured.
With dungeons, they're alwayssuper interesting because of the
fact that they are so differentfrom other battle maps.
Now do you I personally like tostart my party off of the map
(13:34):
and then have them walk onto themap for, like, combat settings,
unless, like, obviously, it's atavern brawl or something.
But, like, let's say, my party,I like to have encounters where
it's like they're going to thevillage to help the village from
Goblin raids so they walk in asthe raid is happening rather
than being there.
I, I like that aesthetic andthat's how I would do a majority
(13:56):
of my Combat, because it givesa bigger picture when they're
walking into it and there's alittle more mystery.
That being said, like thingshappen sometimes, combat maps
are meant to be like in themoment, but, like, personally, I
like to have my players walk in.
What are, kind of, yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
so for for those, for being able to walk in, that's a
very easy way to like,especially if you're starting a
mission, set of missions, is tohave them walk into it and just
approach the combat, notnecessarily knowing there's a
combat there.
But another really nice way todo it is if you can almost Trap
(14:35):
your not literally trap, butlike trap the party as like an
idea, in a spot where there'sgoing to be an encounter.
So then instead of just oh,we're on the start, on this edge
of the map and walk in,everyone's already in the middle
, and then stuff can behappening around, especially
with something complex.
Then you can see, oh well, overhere there's the town guard
(14:57):
fighting off you know the badguys, but there's another
detachment coming in from behindthem going for them, and then
it lets the players both bewalking in and be in the middle
of it without kind of feelinglike either is happening and
there's so many different waysto to draw battle maps.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I know before the episode you really wanted me to
Mention hex maps, but I hex maxare superior, especially as a DM
.
Yeah, I have actually neverused hex maps.
I almost exclusively used tilemaps and that's because of a lot
of the resources that I haveover the years Accumulated for
map making.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They're all swear, so a lot of them are square, which
, like I get why it's like theclassic.
It looks the most D&D.
But for me, using those hexesmakes it feel a lot nicer for
everyone.
Because now for, if you'regoing out of angle right, it's
five, then 15 and five, likefive, ten, five, ten or so.
(15:58):
Every two blocks you're moving15 feet, which is not how the
world works Realistically.
So it allows then that map tofeel more Alive, because you're
not.
We'll have to move forward toand then left to, and then it's
I can move towards the enemy.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, and for me, I just let people move kind of
diagonally regardless.
That's kind of one of thosemoments where I'm like, eh, it's
okay, it is what it is.
I've just never used hex mapsbecause, like even me, when I
had a Dry erase map, it was asquare one.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, you kind of have to look for the hexes if
you want to do hex maps, but assomebody who's being makes maps
for it, it's so much easier.
You don't have to have thelittle a, the little like a unit
measurement circles, trianglesfor your cones.
You can be okay, it goes 30feet, five, ten, fifteen, twenty
, 25, 30, 30 connect them.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
That's fair.
No, I definitely understandthat, and there's so many
different ways to make maps now.
It's so much nicer.
We're not in the days whereyour only option is a dry erase
map, and that's kind of exciting.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I've seen a couple of them and I personally I know
you brought over to my apartmentone day tiles for map building
so those tiles are also like thedry and race and and tiles are
nice if you are building outlike a space, like an interior
space, because then you him,instead of having to draw your
walls on the map and be like,well, this is the inside, that's
(17:39):
the outside.
There's just no outside Becauseyou place, let's say, you have
your central chamber, you haveyour tile in the middle at your
central chamber and you canbuild off-hallways.
All that's really going tomatter that much is that central
area, and you can then use aspace outside still, but it
(18:00):
gives a very Definite image ofwhat this like out there.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, and that that's something that I'm very excited
to be able to play with, so I'mglad that you brought them over
so that I can mess around withthem and see what I can make out
of it.
I also ended up getting aprogram called dungeon alchemist
, which is Very convenient.
It's so nice because if Iforget to play in the battle map
, it's done in five minutes.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But it unfortunately.
This is the one thing I hateabout dungeon alchemist it
doesn't support hex maps.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
No, it doesn't support hex maps and I will say
my real, only complaint with itand I enjoy this and if the
people who make it listen tothis, please label more clearly
what type of paper prints on,and just like right printer
paper, because I reallystruggled to figure out which
one it was just like standard.
Yeah, cuz there's like they putin there like 22 different
(18:52):
types of paper.
I'm like, but what?
What kind of paper is myprinter paper and like we'd like
Google search it.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I'm like, really, what's the standard paper size
which, given like super minor,like oh Well, we had to spend 30
seconds Google searchingsomething, but Just like put in
parentheses standard printerpaper.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, that would be so nice, but realistically it is
a really nice tool becauseeverything you can change the
objects in the room too, whichis really nice, and I like it
for um I For online campaigns,because you can literally make
an infinitely sized map and justhave a gigantic battle map.
I just haven't found a good wayto print one yet, which is a
(19:36):
challenge that I'm running intomyself.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
You can almost have to go somewhere special to do.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah, but there's no like supported like frames for
it, so it's like it would be avery weird game of like.
I could do it like I used toprinting from staples on a giant
poster and that would probablywork.
But there are other options foronline campaigns other than
just dungeon alchemist.
I know you've used roll 20 abit.
I don't personally like roll 20, so I'm not super educated on
(20:04):
it.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, roll 20 is how we got through COVID.
We just played on there instead, which is pretty nice because
you can just kind of draw.
It's essentially a fancy dryer,a sport with the text chat, so
you can roll and do all that.
You can build character sheetsand all the preset character
sheets, so it's just basically asandbox for D&D or any tabletop
(20:29):
game.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, I just know that it like I didn't really
like the user interfacepersonally.
That being said, I've heardreally good things.
I also know for their premiumversion.
It's a paid subscription.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, you can.
I have yet to pay for thesubscription.
If one person has it reallyonly one person needs it and if
you have a group of four or fivepeople and you're playing
online because you know nowadayswho cares about where you are
anymore you might have somebodyout in like Florida, someone in
India, something like that, youknow, and you can just all jump
(21:01):
on everyone.
Venmo's, one at one person,five bucks or whatever.
I don't remember what thepricing is, a couple bucks.
You have one account it's theDM account and just have that
basic level of.
I don't go into your campaigns,you don't go into my campaigns
on the DM account.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
That's fair and like.
I know there's other ones forfor using maps, like there's one
that I found for lore.
That's a it's called like worldengine or something.
I really like world enginebecause I can just take my, my
premade Electronic maps and justport them in there and I can
just use little tiles foreverybody.
But I just I don't know roll 20.
(21:42):
When I first tried to use it,you had to do coding to do some
of the backgrounds and some ofthe tiles and stuff in the HTML,
and I was like this was a longtime ago, mind you, and I was
like nope, I'm not doing it.
I've never revisited it sincelike.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Sometimes roll 20 can be at least.
This is like a couple years oldnow, but you used to be able to
like Because you can importpictures for your backgrounds.
So you can use your dungeonalchemist, make a background and
put it on there.
It also supports whatever typeof grid you want, so you can use
those hex grids and be realgood, but it lets you, and then
(22:17):
it has a system to align them aswell.
I don't remember the exact wayto get to it, but you
essentially can draw a square onyour map as to what the tiles
are on the map, and then it'llline it up.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
That's really cool.
That is really cool.
I might have to go and playwith that myself.
That being said, there is onethat is like Itching at me, and
I was.
I haven't shown this to you yetbecause it's.
It's something I found on myInstagram a couple of days ago.
There is now a printablesubscription when you pay for
the subscription and it's justunlimited access to 3d printable
(22:52):
models and then, if you have a3d printer, you can print houses
and whatnot, and it's justliterally, it's the tiles, and
then you just click themtogether.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, I've seen those ones.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I really want to get a 3d printer just for that now.
That way I can get one of thenormal.
Have you seen like the just theblank hex or the blank x maps
that are just like solid ground?
Roll that over out over a hugetable and then use these printed
models to snap together andcreate the dungeons physically.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You can also another, somewhere you can like input
your stuff In, like they have apreach.
They have a system I don'tremember what it's called up top
of my head, but where you canthen have them print out like
chunks of buildings.
So then you can have a modulehouse.
Yeah so you can use it for yourtaverns or houses, your castles
(23:40):
, whatever, and Then you justhave it and you can just click
it together.
It's a 3d model, the full thing.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's what I want to get one of these principle
subscriptions.
But before I do that I have toget a 3d printer.
My friend who has one has toldme that it is the single best
thing for D&D on the planet.
I can either confirm or denythis yet, but it will eventually
be an avenue that I take,because I would do really want
to get into those like clicktogether maps, and I looked at
(24:07):
the old way of doing it whereyou carve it out of foam, and
that is a very good method ifyou have the patience.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I do not have said patience and that, like
coordination, sometimes willjust end up slightly wrong.
And Even if this is withanything, when you're modeling,
you as the person who's makingit is gonna look at it every
time, see that it was slightlywrong.
It's going to bother you, butif you can like chill with that,
(24:36):
then more power to you.
I can't personally know wouldbother me with forever.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I love all the people who have done it that way and I
have so much respect for them.
But, man, I mean I've seen afully built castle out of like
hand sculpted foam that theystacked three layers high.
I don't know how that thingstayed together Probably like
dowels yeah, going through I.
Respect the, the craft thatsome people have for their
(25:05):
battle maps, but I do want toget into those like 3d battle
maps where you can take themapart and you can snap them
together.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
This is from a recent Like this is throwing some like
attention to them dimension 20campaigns where they had a I'm
not gonna say what was, but theyhad a map where they Sat it
down on the table.
Then it reached over, liftedthe top half off and showed what
the actual map was that'sreally cool.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yet that's the kind of stuff that I want to get into
.
I just know that it has a bigprice curve on it and it has a
lot of technical skills that Iwill need to learn for that, but
it is.
It is a really cool idea forthose looking for things to do
for a map.
That being said, nobody's evergonna complain about hand drawn
maps.
Hand drawn maps are a stapleand I wish more people did them.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
And if someone's getting actively upset over your
hand-drawn maps, you're not theproblem.
They're complaining about youtrying to be nice.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Now I will say I've actually tried a couple of
different papers.
I don't know if you have.
Have you seen the papers thatare meant for like journaling
and whatnot, where it's justdots instead of lines?
I love that for making maps, somuch more than even graph paper
.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think you can probably somewhere online or
there's like printablepapercomand stuff.
I don't know if that's theactual website, but if you look
at printable paper, you canprobably find something that
will just print one by one gridon a piece of paper and you can
just print, like you know, abunch of those.
All of this is paper and ink.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
At one point I had an obsession with making like the
3D maps, where it was like a twolayer map but you could like it
looked like an actual 3D room.
Yeah, those dot papers wayeasier to use than the 3D graph
paper.
I don't know if you've everplayed with that stuff, but that
stuff is annoying to play with.
There's so so much in battlemaps and there are so many great
(27:10):
ways to make them that peopledon't expect, but there's always
that one staple of every battlemap.
And I want to really say and Iwant to kind of introduce an
episode we're going to do laterdown the line with traps how
sparing should traps really be?
(27:31):
And my answer is kind ofcontroversial to that question,
so I'd like to hear yours first.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
If you're thinking traps as in, like the tripwire,
it goes off arrow shoot Only inlike dungeons that are intended
for it.
There's a little asterisk thereIf you're out in the woods
somewhere, someone might have tomake a dex check to not get
smacked in the face by a bird,like something like that, you
(28:01):
know, because things are goingto change.
Oh, there's this giant fightgoing on.
An animal might jump out of itsburrow and run and you know
your fighter it might not justtrying to get away from it.
hit something and you can havesomething a little more
interesting.
Won't be as like you take 1d6of damage.
(28:22):
It'll be like, oh, you take apoint of emotional damage
because you just kicked a beaver.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
I will say personally , my answer for how sparingly
traps should be used is all theflippin' time as much as you can
, any time where you have anexcuse to put in a random trap.
If your group is falling behindbandits, there will most likely
encounter at least one pitfallthat those bandits have dug if
(28:50):
they've been there for a while.
That is how I like D&D.
I like my players to have tohave that constant stress every
time that they're trying to hunta bandit group of.
Oh my God, where are the?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
spikes, which I know this is just like a keep in mind
is the passive perception skillwith.
If you're doing trapseverywhere, anywhere in the
world.
It's just so that you can seeokay, my players have a passive
perception of like 13, 14.
Is this a well-hidden trap ornot?
If it's like if you're running,you're gonna miss it trap, you
(29:24):
can call something to be like asyou're walking, like roll like
a luck check or something, andbe like, okay, you've doesn't
matter what the roll is.
it's just to kind of give it all.
It's re-excuse, be like oh well, while you're walking you
notice a couple weird things.
I'm like oh, there's like justa lot of leaves there.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So I have I mean slight rule for you no meta
gaming.
With this knowledge.
There will always be like ablack or a red outline somewhere
on my map, and that is usuallya trap, and how I decide the DC
or the passive perception ofwhether or not you notice it is
the intelligence of the monsterthat set the trap.
So if it's a goblin that has anintelligence of eight, as long
(30:05):
as your passive perception isabove eight, you'll see it.
But if it's like, for example,a mind flare with a intelligence
of 15, it's gonna be a littlebit harder.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You do just want to make sure your players don't
feel like you're saying, screw,you get trapped on, because then
it's like why do I, why am Icoming?
We're walking through a randomforest and suddenly, out of
nowhere, I fall into a pit ofspikes.
When they give them something,give them like a dex check, make
sure they have a chance toavoid the trap.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Oh, 100%.
I'm just saying like for the,for the.
If you see it, it's just basedoff of wisdom versus
intelligence, your wisdom versustheir intelligence.
Now, if you step on the trap,there's always going to be a
saving throw.
I hate abilities where, justRight off the rip, your hit no
questions asked.
That sucks.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
That makes it just unfun, makes it a little boring,
makes it it makes it so itfeels like the DM versus players
, as opposed to the DM and theplayers telling a story, which
For some cases doing the DMversus players can be fun,
especially doing like a monstercampaign, like a fight night or
something.
But in general, if you don'twant to have that adversarial
(31:25):
dynamic for most campaignsBetween the DM and the players
and if it's gonna be a superdeadly campaign, let your
players know before you start sothat way somebody who's like
I'm gonna put a ton of time intomy character and I'm gonna make
them super interesting in theircharacter I care about the
doesn't then immediately die andlike go, my character is dead.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, and for me that comes down to the fact of, like
, if you're going into a banditcamp and they've been held up
there for months, there'sprobably gonna be three traps,
but you're gonna be able to comein from any single side.
So it's, it is a little bitluck-based, but on top of that,
I Always build an intendedescape route for my players.
I don't like combats wherethere's no way to get out.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, and it's a super common thing with combats,
where it's either they die orwe die, and that's how the
combat ends, which I think wetalked about this earlier
already about when should yourenemies retreat, and sometimes
you're like wolves If they'regetting beaten up by the party,
are gonna be like nope, I'm outof here.
This is now I'm not here foranymore and just book it and
(32:37):
give your players thatopportunity to.
Don't make it, so your playersare stuck.
Don't make it.
So there's a hundred wolvesaround them and then ten of them
come and to fight you and Then,if those ten lose, the rest go
be believe and what.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
What I specifically mean when I say build an escape
route.
There should always be a routefor your players to escape, some
way to get out.
Now, if there is a pit with 20wolves in it and you have a
player who chooses to jump intothe pit, that Is not a situation
where that player needs anescape route.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Sometimes this is a thing with any, in any situation
.
Sometimes someone's gonna bestupid, and if they're stupid
they should feel stupid for, andUsually when someone's stupid,
I'm gonna give them the benefitof the doubt.
They're trying to be stupid.
Oh, I'm gonna jump.
I'm gonna jump the guy with alike Giant great sword.
(33:33):
I'm a level 2 monk.
The guy with the giant greatsort of might kill them or at
least beat them up and take someof their money and and when
you're building your battle maps.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Obviously you don't want to plan for somebody to be
stupid, but you still want togive away that if something
happens wrong, like, for example, in one of dimension 20's
campaigns.
They had a Campaign where theystarted calling themselves the
band of twos because they justkept rolling twos, and in that
situation there needs to be away to run away, and sometimes
(34:08):
this is like.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I've watched a lot of the dimension 20 stuff so I'm
gonna reference it a coupletimes, and one of there's it's a
crown of candy there's aintentional fight when this was
a game of thrones style campaign, so play your death was
Probable.
There was a fight in which itwas intended for only two of
them to survive and Everyone hada backup character.
(34:33):
Everyone knew the charactersmight die, but by having but,
the DM Brennan made sure therewas a way for them to get out
and only and the only one ofthem, like, ends up dying.
And it still hurts the wholeparty that the one person dies,
but they can still escape thisSuper dangerous fight.
(34:54):
That's supposed to feel like asomebody is pulling the Like
lever over on the trap dooryou're standing on.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, and in those situations it can be a lot of
fun.
You just have to be reallycareful with your planning.
But that is all that we do havefor this week.
If you did enjoy this, checkout our other social medias,
including YouTube, where we postexclusive content, and be
prepared for next week when weget back here with Intelligent
Creatures, which should be a lotof fun.
Alright, welcome back to our next episode of DMI.
Today is gonna be a really,really fun one for me.
I absolutely adore designingbattle maps, and that's gonna be
our topic for today.
Today.
I've got Jay with me yet again,as per normal.
Yeah, I know Sometimes maybeSometimes, maybe when you have
those days you do, battle mapscan be really complex, and I
(00:21):
think that they're veryadaptable for basically every
situation.
I don't know.
I don't like big battle maps,though.
Personally.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So for those big battle maps to me this is one of
my.
I've seen some people do it,where they, because you get a
castle siege or something as abattle map, a one, the normal,
what one inch by one inch isfive feet, it's like one inch is
30 feet and they do thesemassive, almost warhammer type
(00:52):
combats instead of doing anormal one just because then you
can have those big picturefights.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Absolutely, and that's a good idea.
For every battle map, though,there's gotta be like key
staples.
So what would be your keystaples for every single battle
map?
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So, for me, one of the things I always try to
include is the path, because fora battle map, there's an
intended path for your enemy andfor your party to take, whether
that be a literal curvy road oranything like that because
sometimes you'll have a fightthat takes place on a road.
So you're expecting okay,they're gonna come from this
side, the other team's gonna beon this side and here's where
(01:32):
they're gonna meet and makingsure those inner areas where
people are gonna be fightinghave a little more a simple
complexity as opposed to well,there's 27 bushes in this area
where we're all going to befighting, and kind of leaving
these areas where this is wherea fight is going to be at and
(01:55):
this is where the melee of thefight will be, and leaving that
space open enough for yourplayers and for your monsters
and little friends to make theirway and have their fun in the
fight.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
See, for me, I actually really like to include
more cover and have less openspaces, because I feel like it
creates more cinematic moments,almost and at least when I play
with people, everybody's lookingfor that legless cinematic
moment where they can jump offof a cliff and shoot somebody
with an arrow.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Which the big thing is, though.
Making sure, especially ifyou're doing a little less
physical, if you only have agrid or something making sure
those areas aren't overlycomplicated to where every turn
is gonna be.
How far is the nearest enemyfrom me?
Yeah, how Where's the nearestcover?
And then you have to keep allof that either already drawn or
(02:53):
in mind, while your players arealso trying to keep it in mind,
and both create this image ofthe map.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
And that's kind of one of those things.
Also, it's like it depends ifyou are doing an actual physical
battle map.
If you're not doing a physicalbattle map, it's probably easier
to give less cover and not belike there are 25 around you.
That being said, if you'realready a pre-drawing the map,
just some little squiggles forpeople to hide behind.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, you always wanna add something to make sure
every ability can be used andmake sense to be used, for
instance the Rogue's cunningaction, for, like hide, I stab
him and I just hide right behindhim and they can't see me they
won't know I'm here.
The Rogue should be able to,like, duck behind something,
(03:41):
duck under something, and kindof be able to be sneaky without
overly complicating it In mymind at least, because if it's
too complicated, then it's gonnabe too complicated for everyone
.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, like there's the Druid spell on I know it's
in a couple other spell lists aswell, I just know it's in Druid
Pass without a trace.
It makes no sense to passwithout a trace and then you
magically walk through an entirejust plains and nobody notices
you're following them.
That doesn't make thematicsense to me, so that's why I
(04:13):
always kind of like try to addmore cover rather than less.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, you wanna include it.
It's just a you don't wannaovercrowd is the big thing, and
it can be easy, especially ifyou have an area where, as they
say in like movies, the deathpit where everyone's gonna die.
You don't want that space to befull of stuff, but you want it
to feel not empty.
It's a weird middle ground too.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Now to kind of keep that death pit from happening,
where literally everyone diesthere.
If you're gonna have cliffs andwhatnot, personally I think you
have to have more cover.
If you're gonna have likecliffs and hard terrain that
people are gonna have to climbCause otherwise you go to
climate and you've already takensix shots as you're trying to
climb it, If you don't make thatfirst climb, you're done, it's
(04:59):
over, no questions asked.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh yeah, I'm just making sure.
It also is going to be highlydependent on what type of area
you're in.
If you're on the road to thebig city and you get jumped by
bandits, it's probably gonna bepretty empty there.
Might there'll be some cover tothe sides, but in that main
space there's gonna be emptinessand that's where, like, your
(05:23):
fighter's gonna probably end upbeing.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And even if you can like consider like, for example,
the D&D movie that battlefieldscene that they showed was
really great.
That being said, it was veryreminiscent of like a World War
II battle scene where there weretrenches and whatnot and
there's gonna be death zones inthat like regardless.
But if you're fighting in justlike a little village or a
bandit out camp, that's a verydifferent story and you need to
(05:47):
add a lot more cover, because nobandit camp or no village is
going to just have no places tohide.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, especially if you're in like a village or camp
.
Your camps are gonna beorganized but they aren't going
to be clean.
So you have these clearpathways on your maps, but by a
pathway there's gonna be alittle booth.
You know, maybe it's where theyhave a shop or it's a bandit
camp where the you know weirdold guy with the ladle of soup
(06:18):
is to hand out all the soup andyou can duck behind those and
use those as cover as well.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And if you're gonna like fight in a little village,
I mean somebody's grandma's gota rose bush that your players
can duck behind.
And I think that that is agreat image in my head because
if they fail that stealth roleagainst the old person, I can
just imagine like one of thosescenes of get off my lot as
they're trying to survive Justin the middle of an actual fight
.
(06:44):
I can imagine that that could bereally amusing, but there's so
many ways to include cover.
I think that cover, though, isincredibly important to remember
, because if you don't giveenough, your party just gets
TPK'd and with a bunch ofabilities, like in some feats.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I that are, I'm, they're still around a little
bit, at least where it's youignore Half cover, the three
quarters cover.
By not including cover it'sthen making those feats actively
useless.
And something I like to addthat can add some cover and Kind
(07:21):
of change the battlefield alittle bit as multiple heights
on your map where, oh you're,especially if you're in like a
tap, like a building.
It's not going to be a one floorbuilding, no upper areas
necessarily.
It could be even if but if it'slike a dungeon or anything like
that there can be upper levelswhere you can have something
standing there.
(07:41):
Your party can get up there anduse it as a like vantage point
and making it a little moreengaging for them as well.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
That's kind of an interesting point, because it
leads into Something I wanted totalk about, which is, when you
have multiple, when you havethose indoor combats, should
there be multiple entrance ways?
Should there be ways for yourCharacters to escape in case
something goes wrong, or do youjust have them walk into a death
room where there's one way inand one way out and if it gets
(08:10):
blocked they're screwed?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
inside.
It's for me at least, it's veryParticular on what they're
going into.
If you're going into like, saylike, because this is an
campaign, I've been watching achurch of some kind where the
you know evil emperors beingcrowned or the evil king is
(08:33):
having a wedding with somerandom person, I don't know.
There's probably going to beone or two entrances or they're
all going to be in the same areaand by using those entrances
and you want to either leavethem open or lock them,
depending on where this is inyour story, because if it's your
big final fight, you don't wantyour party to run away and the
(08:57):
party isn't going to want to runaway.
So by making it so now theycan't, it makes the battle map
feel more Confining, which canadd to that suspense for
everyone.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
And I think with with final boss fights, definitely
those situations where they onlyneed one exit.
That's very true for me, unlessit's like a really small village
.
I tend to try to include aslike a staple and this is just
like my own Funny brain math Iinclude three ways out from
every situation.
So like, let's say, they'refighting in a tavern, there's
(09:34):
three ways out of the tavernthere's the front entrance, then
there's the one where you haveto go through the kitchen and
then there's the one that's likeback through the pantry and
then through the wine cellar andthen through this, that and the
other, so that my players don't, if they have to run away,
they're not trapped, but alsothey don't just have like three
in one room.
Because I feel like, if I thinkabout real buildings and I'm
(09:55):
trying to add that immersionMost places don't have just one
exit.
Usually they have a couple,just in case of a fire or
something, and I know that's notas historically accurate, but I
feel like, especially with whatwe grew up with, it makes it
feel more real because it's morelike what we know.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, and it's when designing buildings, especially
if you're designing like adungeon.
This is an issue I have with alot of dungeons Is they don't
make sense based on howbuildings work.
If you ever walk into abuilding, right, there's going
to be a hallway and every roomis going to be connected to that
(10:30):
hallway.
That's just how buildingsfunction normally Given.
If you're making a dungeon toprotect something, that's not
how it's going to work.
But if you're a bad guy'sliving in a dungeon, it should
be functioning similarly to ahouse, and that doesn't mean
(10:50):
there's not going to be layers,but it should be very
traversable to where an entrancecan't be blocked fully as Far
as like oh well, you can cutthrough this space and cut back
around and get out.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
So I think dungeons are something where I I would
say that their own Beast almostoh yeah they're very much their
own special thing, because thereshould be multiple ways out of
a dungeon.
There should also be likedungeons are almost this thing
to me where they're, they shouldbe treated like they're a maze
Basically, and you can get lostin them really easily.
(11:26):
But the deeper you go, the lesschances for escape you have,
the more you're stuck in,crammed into those, because it
should become become more like adeath pit the deeper that you
go.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
And for what I try to do.
For if I'm designing a dungeonis I try to make it like Like
someone whose house you've neverbeen in and that's just super
weirdly to set up.
So it's a little confusing, alittle like chaotic to you
because you don't know what it'sset up as, but it makes still
functions and makes sense tosomebody who's looking at a
(11:59):
house, especially if it's likethe bad guys castle.
There's going to be thesechambers that are down paths and
down offshoots, but there'sgoing to be that central area
where a lot of it comes togetherand you might have to go
through a little bit to get tothat space.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
So when I design a dungeon, I think of the old
German Castles, where there maybe four doors on every room
leading into a different room,but if you go too far in, you're
getting lost, regardless of howwell you think you knew your
path.
Um, and that's how I builddungeons is I want there to be a
ton of choices, and thosechoices eventually you'll be
(12:35):
like was I here before?
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Where am?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I and unless you're really paying attention to the
map, I want to confuse myplayers even in real life,
looking and being like it'sbasically a maze for me.
Um, but I I do want to movekind of away from dungeons
because, honestly, I don't knowabout you.
But I think we could talk for awhole hour just on dungeon
theory.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Dungeon theory is fun , we should make a series and
this is uh, as of this recordingbeing like claim what's ours
now called dungeon theory Matpatcan't steal it, we're taking it
and we're making a dungeonpodcast.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Oh, okay, okay, but yeah, no, um, with dungeons,
they're always super insured.
With dungeons, they're alwayssuper interesting because of the
fact that they are so differentfrom other battle maps.
Now do you I personally like tostart my party off of the map
(13:34):
and then have them walk onto themap for, like, combat settings,
unless, like, obviously, it's atavern brawl or something.
But, like, let's say, my party,I like to have encounters where
it's like they're going to thevillage to help the village from
Goblin raids so they walk in asthe raid is happening rather
than being there.
I, I like that aesthetic andthat's how I would do a majority
(13:56):
of my Combat, because it givesa bigger picture when they're
walking into it and there's alittle more mystery.
That being said, like thingshappen sometimes, combat maps
are meant to be like in themoment, but, like, personally, I
like to have my players walk in.
What are, kind of, yourthoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
so for for those, for being able to walk in, that's a
very easy way to like,especially if you're starting a
mission, set of missions, is tohave them walk into it and just
approach the combat, notnecessarily knowing there's a
combat there.
But another really nice way todo it is if you can almost Trap
(14:35):
your not literally trap, butlike trap the party as like an
idea, in a spot where there'sgoing to be an encounter.
So then instead of just oh,we're on the start, on this edge
of the map and walk in,everyone's already in the middle
, and then stuff can behappening around, especially
with something complex.
Then you can see, oh well, overhere there's the town guard
(14:57):
fighting off you know the badguys, but there's another
detachment coming in from behindthem going for them, and then
it lets the players both bewalking in and be in the middle
of it without kind of feelinglike either is happening and
there's so many different waysto to draw battle maps.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I know before the episode you really wanted me to
Mention hex maps, but I hex maxare superior, especially as a DM
.
Yeah, I have actually neverused hex maps.
I almost exclusively used tilemaps and that's because of a lot
of the resources that I haveover the years Accumulated for
map making.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
They're all swear, so a lot of them are square, which
, like I get why it's like theclassic.
It looks the most D&D.
But for me, using those hexesmakes it feel a lot nicer for
everyone.
Because now for, if you'regoing out of angle right, it's
five, then 15 and five, likefive, ten, five, ten or so.
(15:58):
Every two blocks you're moving15 feet, which is not how the
world works Realistically.
So it allows then that map tofeel more Alive, because you're
not.
We'll have to move forward toand then left to, and then it's
I can move towards the enemy.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, and for me, I just let people move kind of
diagonally regardless.
That's kind of one of thosemoments where I'm like, eh, it's
okay, it is what it is.
I've just never used hex mapsbecause, like even me, when I
had a Dry erase map, it was asquare one.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, you kind of have to look for the hexes if
you want to do hex maps, but assomebody who's being makes maps
for it, it's so much easier.
You don't have to have thelittle a, the little like a unit
measurement circles, trianglesfor your cones.
You can be okay, it goes 30feet, five, ten, fifteen, twenty
, 25, 30, 30 connect them.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
That's fair.
No, I definitely understandthat, and there's so many
different ways to make maps now.
It's so much nicer.
We're not in the days whereyour only option is a dry erase
map, and that's kind of exciting.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I've seen a couple of them and I personally I know
you brought over to my apartmentone day tiles for map building
so those tiles are also like thedry and race and and tiles are
nice if you are building outlike a space, like an interior
space, because then you him,instead of having to draw your
walls on the map and be like,well, this is the inside, that's
(17:39):
the outside.
There's just no outside Becauseyou place, let's say, you have
your central chamber, you haveyour tile in the middle at your
central chamber and you canbuild off-hallways.
All that's really going tomatter that much is that central
area, and you can then use aspace outside still, but it
(18:00):
gives a very Definite image ofwhat this like out there.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, and that that's something that I'm very excited
to be able to play with, so I'mglad that you brought them over
so that I can mess around withthem and see what I can make out
of it.
I also ended up getting aprogram called dungeon alchemist
, which is Very convenient.
It's so nice because if Iforget to play in the battle map
, it's done in five minutes.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
But it unfortunately.
This is the one thing I hateabout dungeon alchemist it
doesn't support hex maps.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
No, it doesn't support hex maps and I will say
my real, only complaint with itand I enjoy this and if the
people who make it listen tothis, please label more clearly
what type of paper prints on,and just like right printer
paper, because I reallystruggled to figure out which
one it was just like standard.
Yeah, cuz there's like they putin there like 22 different
(18:52):
types of paper.
I'm like, but what?
What kind of paper is myprinter paper and like we'd like
Google search it.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I'm like, really, what's the standard paper size
which, given like super minor,like oh Well, we had to spend 30
seconds Google searchingsomething, but Just like put in
parentheses standard printerpaper.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, that would be so nice, but realistically it is
a really nice tool becauseeverything you can change the
objects in the room too, whichis really nice, and I like it
for um I For online campaigns,because you can literally make
an infinitely sized map and justhave a gigantic battle map.
I just haven't found a good wayto print one yet, which is a
(19:36):
challenge that I'm running intomyself.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
You can almost have to go somewhere special to do.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yeah, but there's no like supported like frames for
it, so it's like it would be avery weird game of like.
I could do it like I used toprinting from staples on a giant
poster and that would probablywork.
But there are other options foronline campaigns other than
just dungeon alchemist.
I know you've used roll 20 abit.
I don't personally like roll 20, so I'm not super educated on
(20:04):
it.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, roll 20 is how we got through COVID.
We just played on there instead, which is pretty nice because
you can just kind of draw.
It's essentially a fancy dryer,a sport with the text chat, so
you can roll and do all that.
You can build character sheetsand all the preset character
sheets, so it's just basically asandbox for D&D or any tabletop
(20:29):
game.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah, I just know that it like I didn't really
like the user interfacepersonally.
That being said, I've heardreally good things.
I also know for their premiumversion.
It's a paid subscription.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, you can.
I have yet to pay for thesubscription.
If one person has it reallyonly one person needs it and if
you have a group of four or fivepeople and you're playing
online because you know nowadayswho cares about where you are
anymore you might have somebodyout in like Florida, someone in
India, something like that, youknow, and you can just all jump
(21:01):
on everyone.
Venmo's, one at one person,five bucks or whatever.
I don't remember what thepricing is, a couple bucks.
You have one account it's theDM account and just have that
basic level of.
I don't go into your campaigns,you don't go into my campaigns
on the DM account.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
That's fair and like.
I know there's other ones forfor using maps, like there's one
that I found for lore.
That's a it's called like worldengine or something.
I really like world enginebecause I can just take my, my
premade Electronic maps and justport them in there and I can
just use little tiles foreverybody.
But I just I don't know roll 20.
(21:42):
When I first tried to use it,you had to do coding to do some
of the backgrounds and some ofthe tiles and stuff in the HTML,
and I was like this was a longtime ago, mind you, and I was
like nope, I'm not doing it.
I've never revisited it sincelike.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Sometimes roll 20 can be at least.
This is like a couple years oldnow, but you used to be able to
like Because you can importpictures for your backgrounds.
So you can use your dungeonalchemist, make a background and
put it on there.
It also supports whatever typeof grid you want, so you can use
those hex grids and be realgood, but it lets you, and then
(22:17):
it has a system to align them aswell.
I don't remember the exact wayto get to it, but you
essentially can draw a square onyour map as to what the tiles
are on the map, and then it'llline it up.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
That's really cool.
That is really cool.
I might have to go and playwith that myself.
That being said, there is onethat is like Itching at me, and
I was.
I haven't shown this to you yetbecause it's.
It's something I found on myInstagram a couple of days ago.
There is now a printablesubscription when you pay for
the subscription and it's justunlimited access to 3d printable
(22:52):
models and then, if you have a3d printer, you can print houses
and whatnot, and it's justliterally, it's the tiles, and
then you just click themtogether.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Oh, I've seen those ones.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I really want to get a 3d printer just for that now.
That way I can get one of thenormal.
Have you seen like the just theblank hex or the blank x maps
that are just like solid ground?
Roll that over out over a hugetable and then use these printed
models to snap together andcreate the dungeons physically.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You can also another, somewhere you can like input
your stuff In, like they have apreach.
They have a system I don'tremember what it's called up top
of my head, but where you canthen have them print out like
chunks of buildings.
So then you can have a modulehouse.
Yeah so you can use it for yourtaverns or houses, your castles
(23:40):
, whatever, and Then you justhave it and you can just click
it together.
It's a 3d model, the full thing.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
That's what I want to get one of these principle
subscriptions.
But before I do that I have toget a 3d printer.
My friend who has one has toldme that it is the single best
thing for D&D on the planet.
I can either confirm or denythis yet, but it will eventually
be an avenue that I take,because I would do really want
to get into those like clicktogether maps, and I looked at
(24:07):
the old way of doing it whereyou carve it out of foam, and
that is a very good method ifyou have the patience.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I do not have said patience and that, like
coordination, sometimes willjust end up slightly wrong.
And Even if this is withanything, when you're modeling,
you as the person who's makingit is gonna look at it every
time, see that it was slightlywrong.
It's going to bother you, butif you can like chill with that,
(24:36):
then more power to you.
I can't personally know wouldbother me with forever.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I love all the people who have done it that way and I
have so much respect for them.
But, man, I mean I've seen afully built castle out of like
hand sculpted foam that theystacked three layers high.
I don't know how that thingstayed together Probably like
dowels yeah, going through I.
Respect the, the craft thatsome people have for their
(25:05):
battle maps, but I do want toget into those like 3d battle
maps where you can take themapart and you can snap them
together.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
This is from a recent Like this is throwing some like
attention to them dimension 20campaigns where they had a I'm
not gonna say what was, but theyhad a map where they Sat it
down on the table.
Then it reached over, liftedthe top half off and showed what
the actual map was that'sreally cool.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yet that's the kind of stuff that I want to get into
.
I just know that it has a bigprice curve on it and it has a
lot of technical skills that Iwill need to learn for that, but
it is.
It is a really cool idea forthose looking for things to do
for a map.
That being said, nobody's evergonna complain about hand drawn
maps.
Hand drawn maps are a stapleand I wish more people did them.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
And if someone's getting actively upset over your
hand-drawn maps, you're not theproblem.
They're complaining about youtrying to be nice.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Now I will say I've actually tried a couple of
different papers.
I don't know if you have.
Have you seen the papers thatare meant for like journaling
and whatnot, where it's justdots instead of lines?
I love that for making maps, somuch more than even graph paper
.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I think you can probably somewhere online or
there's like printablepapercomand stuff.
I don't know if that's theactual website, but if you look
at printable paper, you canprobably find something that
will just print one by one gridon a piece of paper and you can
just print, like you know, abunch of those.
All of this is paper and ink.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
At one point I had an obsession with making like the
3D maps, where it was like a twolayer map but you could like it
looked like an actual 3D room.
Yeah, those dot papers wayeasier to use than the 3D graph
paper.
I don't know if you've everplayed with that stuff, but that
stuff is annoying to play with.
There's so so much in battlemaps and there are so many great
(27:10):
ways to make them that peopledon't expect, but there's always
that one staple of every battlemap.
And I want to really say and Iwant to kind of introduce an
episode we're going to do laterdown the line with traps how
sparing should traps really be?
(27:31):
And my answer is kind ofcontroversial to that question,
so I'd like to hear yours first.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
If you're thinking traps as in, like the tripwire,
it goes off arrow shoot Only inlike dungeons that are intended
for it.
There's a little asterisk thereIf you're out in the woods
somewhere, someone might have tomake a dex check to not get
smacked in the face by a bird,like something like that, you
(28:01):
know, because things are goingto change.
Oh, there's this giant fightgoing on.
An animal might jump out of itsburrow and run and you know
your fighter it might not justtrying to get away from it.
hit something and you can havesomething a little more
interesting.
Won't be as like you take 1d6of damage.
(28:22):
It'll be like, oh, you take apoint of emotional damage
because you just kicked a beaver.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
I will say personally , my answer for how sparingly
traps should be used is all theflippin' time as much as you can
, any time where you have anexcuse to put in a random trap.
If your group is falling behindbandits, there will most likely
encounter at least one pitfallthat those bandits have dug if
(28:50):
they've been there for a while.
That is how I like D&D.
I like my players to have tohave that constant stress every
time that they're trying to hunta bandit group of.
Oh my God, where are the?
Speaker 2 (29:00):
spikes, which I know this is just like a keep in mind
is the passive perception skillwith.
If you're doing trapseverywhere, anywhere in the
world.
It's just so that you can seeokay, my players have a passive
perception of like 13, 14.
Is this a well-hidden trap ornot?
If it's like if you're running,you're gonna miss it trap, you
(29:24):
can call something to be like asyou're walking, like roll like
a luck check or something, andbe like, okay, you've doesn't
matter what the roll is.
it's just to kind of give it all.
It's re-excuse, be like oh well, while you're walking you
notice a couple weird things.
I'm like oh, there's like justa lot of leaves there.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So I have I mean slight rule for you no meta
gaming.
With this knowledge.
There will always be like ablack or a red outline somewhere
on my map, and that is usuallya trap, and how I decide the DC
or the passive perception ofwhether or not you notice it is
the intelligence of the monsterthat set the trap.
So if it's a goblin that has anintelligence of eight, as long
(30:05):
as your passive perception isabove eight, you'll see it.
But if it's like, for example,a mind flare with a intelligence
of 15, it's gonna be a littlebit harder.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
You do just want to make sure your players don't
feel like you're saying, screw,you get trapped on, because then
it's like why do I, why am Icoming?
We're walking through a randomforest and suddenly, out of
nowhere, I fall into a pit ofspikes.
When they give them something,give them like a dex check, make
sure they have a chance toavoid the trap.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Oh, 100%.
I'm just saying like for the,for the.
If you see it, it's just basedoff of wisdom versus
intelligence, your wisdom versustheir intelligence.
Now, if you step on the trap,there's always going to be a
saving throw.
I hate abilities where, justRight off the rip, your hit no
questions asked.
That sucks.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
That makes it just unfun, makes it a little boring,
makes it it makes it so itfeels like the DM versus players
, as opposed to the DM and theplayers telling a story, which
For some cases doing the DMversus players can be fun,
especially doing like a monstercampaign, like a fight night or
something.
But in general, if you don'twant to have that adversarial
(31:25):
dynamic for most campaignsBetween the DM and the players
and if it's gonna be a superdeadly campaign, let your
players know before you start sothat way somebody who's like
I'm gonna put a ton of time intomy character and I'm gonna make
them super interesting in theircharacter I care about the
doesn't then immediately die andlike go, my character is dead.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Yeah, and for me that comes down to the fact of, like
, if you're going into a banditcamp and they've been held up
there for months, there'sprobably gonna be three traps,
but you're gonna be able to comein from any single side.
So it's, it is a little bitluck-based, but on top of that,
I Always build an intendedescape route for my players.
I don't like combats wherethere's no way to get out.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, and it's a super common thing with combats,
where it's either they die orwe die, and that's how the
combat ends, which I think wetalked about this earlier
already about when should yourenemies retreat, and sometimes
you're like wolves If they'regetting beaten up by the party,
are gonna be like nope, I'm outof here.
This is now I'm not here foranymore and just book it and
(32:37):
give your players thatopportunity to.
Don't make it, so your playersare stuck.
Don't make it.
So there's a hundred wolvesaround them and then ten of them
come and to fight you and Then,if those ten lose, the rest go
be believe and what.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
What I specifically mean when I say build an escape
route.
There should always be a routefor your players to escape, some
way to get out.
Now, if there is a pit with 20wolves in it and you have a
player who chooses to jump intothe pit, that Is not a situation
where that player needs anescape route.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Sometimes this is a thing with any, in any situation
.
Sometimes someone's gonna bestupid, and if they're stupid
they should feel stupid for, andUsually when someone's stupid,
I'm gonna give them the benefitof the doubt.
They're trying to be stupid.
Oh, I'm gonna jump.
I'm gonna jump the guy with alike Giant great sword.
(33:33):
I'm a level 2 monk.
The guy with the giant greatsort of might kill them or at
least beat them up and take someof their money and and when
you're building your battle maps.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Obviously you don't want to plan for somebody to be
stupid, but you still want togive away that if something
happens wrong, like, for example, in one of dimension 20's
campaigns.
They had a Campaign where theystarted calling themselves the
band of twos because they justkept rolling twos, and in that
situation there needs to be away to run away, and sometimes
(34:08):
this is like.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I've watched a lot of the dimension 20 stuff so I'm
gonna reference it a coupletimes, and one of there's it's a
crown of candy there's aintentional fight when this was
a game of thrones style campaign, so play your death was
Probable.
There was a fight in which itwas intended for only two of
them to survive and Everyone hada backup character.
(34:33):
Everyone knew the charactersmight die, but by having but,
the DM Brennan made sure therewas a way for them to get out
and only and the only one ofthem, like, ends up dying.
And it still hurts the wholeparty that the one person dies,
but they can still escape thisSuper dangerous fight.
(34:54):
That's supposed to feel like asomebody is pulling the Like
lever over on the trap dooryou're standing on.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, and in those situations it can be a lot of
fun.
You just have to be reallycareful with your planning.
But that is all that we do havefor this week.
If you did enjoy this, checkout our other social medias,
including YouTube, where we postexclusive content, and be
prepared for next week when weget back here with Intelligent
Creatures, which should be a lotof fun.
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