January 21, 2024 • 32 mins
Discover the razor-thin line that separates the cunning from the common beast as Jay Cerulean and I celebrate a rousing milestone of 100 downloads with an episode bursting with the lore of intelligent creatures in Dungeons & Dragons. Prepare to challenge your perceptions of goblin-kind, hobgoblins, and kobolds, as we explore the societal intricacies and strategic minds that elevate these mythical races from mere monsters to beings with a capacity for planning, organization, and even political machinations.
Venture further with us as we soar with dragons, debate the psionic might of mind flayers, and ponder the ancient dominion of aboleths. Our conversation offers a treasure trove of insights into the subtle nuances of monster intelligence and the complex roles they occupy in the tapestry of the D&D universe. Learn how Dungeon Masters and players alike can engage these formidable adversaries in non-lethal confrontations, from devilish bargains to potential alliances, and understand the stark contrast in behavior exhibited by different creatures when they cross paths with adventurers. Join us for a quest filled with inspiration, where every encounter with an intelligent foe promises to be as much a battle of wits as it is of steel.
Venture further with us as we soar with dragons, debate the psionic might of mind flayers, and ponder the ancient dominion of aboleths. Our conversation offers a treasure trove of insights into the subtle nuances of monster intelligence and the complex roles they occupy in the tapestry of the D&D universe. Learn how Dungeon Masters and players alike can engage these formidable adversaries in non-lethal confrontations, from devilish bargains to potential alliances, and understand the stark contrast in behavior exhibited by different creatures when they cross paths with adventurers. Join us for a quest filled with inspiration, where every encounter with an intelligent foe promises to be as much a battle of wits as it is of steel.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. If you are interested in seeing more content like this check out our YouTube! We also post weekly game articles on our Patreon and have an active Discord community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome back to the next episode of DMI.
I just wanted to take a realquick moment to say thank you to
everyone who's been listeningto.
This point Really does mean alot, especially as we're
crossing this large milestone ofgoing over 100 downloads.
We really appreciate all of thesupport that people have given
to the channel and all the kindcomments.
So, going forward, today ourtopic is going to be intelligent
(00:22):
creatures, and I am joined bythe one the only, okay, but the
one, the only Jay Cerulean.
So, with creatures in mind, Imean they play, as we mentioned
in our monsters episode.
They play a massive part inevery single encounter that
you're going to have in D&D andit's kind of one of those things
(00:44):
where the more intelligent thecreature, the more effort you
have to do into planning theencounter.
That being said, where is thatkind of line where you would
consider a monster, the linewhere you would consider a
creature like really anintelligent creature rather than
just a base mob Like would youconsider like a goblin and an
intelligent monster?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So a lot of it comes on organization.
So for me it's based on howorganized it is.
Like one goblin chilling in acamp is like, especially because
they're a playable race,they're not unintelligent, but
one goblin isn't going to beyour typical, like intelligent
creature, whereas like if youhave a goblin horde who's living
(01:23):
through these cave systems andhave like a full thing going on
in there, then that kind of hitsthat point of okay, this isn't
just a monster, it's nowsomething intelligent and doing
thing.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, and I think that that's a fair way to look
at it, because the intelligenceof different monsters is, like,
I would say, a pretty bigdifferential thing and
especially as we get into thesemore monster races that for some
reason Wizards is reallygetting into I've noticed at
least, and I really enjoyplaying them because they can be
(01:55):
a lot of fun to play some ofthe monster races it's only
widening that kind of gap.
I feel like I mean, we're stillat this point where there's some
quote unquote intelligentmonsters like you can't really
play a mind flare, you can'treally play a dragon.
There's a couple races stillwhere they haven't let us play
them.
But then there's cobalts, whichnow have a playable race, and
(02:17):
there's goblins, which I wouldpreviously have said are a
little less of an intelligentrace.
But I would say the kind of thebreaking point for me would be
there's this intelligent andthere's this really intelligent
category.
I would say your intelligentmonsters would be like your
cobalts, your goblins, all ofyour things that are gonna be
thinking through plans, scheming, especially hobgoblins, and
(02:39):
then you have your reallyintelligent monsters where we
start to get into dragons, somedeities some people consider
intelligent monsters and like Imean, what's another great one
Like the Asimar originallystarted out.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
The Asimar were an interesting one where they
started because they started aslike demigods almost.
And then we're like well, let'smake them something more usable
instead of just being thesevery weirdly specific they're
not angels, demigod type figures.
So then when they pulled themdown to being actually playable,
(03:15):
they kind of lost that level oflike oh, they're a smart
monster.
They became kind of like humans, where a human realistically
would be like an intelligentcreature or monster.
But, there's no one's gonna say, oh, that's an intelligent
monster, because it's a human.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, and like obviously for creatures and
monsters and whatnot, likethere's obviously the ones that
are unintelligent like oozes,yeah, and like wolves are.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
They have like basic pack tactic type stuff, but they
aren't intelligent enough tolike, oh, we're gonna build a
base, we're gonna go to this onespot because we know that
there's gonna be a group ofpeople who will have something
for us to steal.
But they'll be like well,there's usually food here, so
we'll go here because there'sfood there.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And that's how you have to think about it when
you're playing it too, I mean,unless you disagree, I think
it's really important thatyou're asking yourself the
question of well, how much arethey actually thinking?
Is there just food here, or isthere things to steal here?
Because if they're thinkingabout those kind of higher
thoughts, they're obviously muchmore of an intelligent monster.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
It kind of comes down to the level of how they want
to be thinking.
If they're thinking of just,this is where food is, this is
where something safe is, kind ofthat more primal level of just
either I am here because thereis this or I am there because
there is not this they becomeless of an intelligent creature
(04:41):
and more of just kind of thatacting on instinctual knowledge,
Whereas something like a groupof cobalts under the direction
of because cobalts typicallyindividually aren't intelligent
monsters, but then you get intolike the Horde of the Dragon
Queen, where they becomeintelligent monsters because
someone's telling them what todo Can kind of branch that gap
(05:02):
from just a monster that canthink into being an actual
intelligent monster.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, and there's those weird ones like for me
when I'm always questioningwhether they're actually
intelligent or not would be, forexample, intellect devourers,
where they chase psionic wavesand they kind of tend to form
patterns based on where thereare psionic waves, but they're
an underdark monster thatdoesn't have a really high
(05:29):
intelligence.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So for intellect devourers it kind of depends on
what way you're running them,and because of stuff like
there's in the game Baldur'sGate, you can get one who's
smart enough to be like we needto leave.
We need to leave this place,it's going to die.
So you can have some that are alittle more intelligent because
they come out of people'sbrains, especially if they are
(05:54):
the ones built by a lithid ormindflake.
But then you have your moreunderdark monster ones as well.
There's kind of those two areasfor that specific monster.
But sometimes there are thoseweird ones that kind of bridge
this gap of they have a targetbecause of something they can
tell versus are they going aftera target because it's a target?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And I think an important thing to remember when
you're playing intelligentmonsters is you can have a
really, really dumb monster raceand still have an intelligent
creature in that race.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, like, usually, one of the weird ones we
mentioned earlier is goblins.
Goblins typically are prettylike instinct.
They're a little moreintelligent than like your
wolves and your normal animals.
Typically they're just kind ofa pack that roams around hunting
and killing things and stealingtheir things because they're
shiny.
But as soon as you put, oh, nowthere's some hobgoblins here,
(06:52):
there's some of these othervarieties of goblins, usually
they start thinking and theybecome more organized as they
diversify a little bit and thenyou can have something where, oh
, this person comes in and tellsthem what to do and they very
quickly go from being, you knowlike how a pack of wolves is
(07:14):
kind of organized, to being anactual militia force.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, and I think an important question is, as we go
further in here, what are wegoing to consider monsters and
what are we going to considerraces?
Because D&D's come into thisplace now where you there's
guidelines for playingnon-playable monsters, Like I
have had a friend of mine whowas running one of the I can't
(07:41):
remember what they're called,but the big bugs from the
underdark as his character.
Like that's not a playable race.
That being said, there areguidelines and even books where
they have released them asplayable races.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
A lot of time.
To me it comes down to isbecause they are pretty clear in
all of the rulings what's amonstrous race and what's a
normal race.
And, like ASMR, aren't amonstrous race, they're just a
normal race.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Now I believe goblins and cobalts are both considered
monstrous races, same thingwith bugbears, where all of them
are intelligent creatures andspecies, but they are still kind
of on that player characterlevel of intellect and not
beyond it where like a mindflayer is going to be sitting
(08:27):
and that's why, like when youand I were planning this episode
and we were talking about it,we chose to go with the title of
intelligent creatures, becauseAsimaur are in the monster
manual and they're an enemy thatyou can fight, but they're not
a monster, they're anintelligent creature, or an
intelligent being though thatsame kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Thought goes then with like human bandits or
whatever kind of bandits elvenbandits, if you wanted to do
elves where they're justantagonistic player races
Towards, whatever the goal is,whether that be they're just
trying to rob a group ofadventurers or if they're trying
to actively stop them fromdoing the thing now I will say
(09:10):
there are some Monsters andcreatures that are uses, enemies
and D&D that are intelligentand I bet you there are just
five that stick out that both ofus can name.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
What would you say are the top five.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So I Don't know.
I for me, because I also havethat like Mythology side to yeah
, for me some of them are likeSphinxes are really fun
intelligent monster to includeBecause they'll give you riddles
usually and then you get tocome up with riddles and make
somebody really upset.
Then you can do like yourbeholders, which everyone uses
(09:43):
mind flayers, drat, some dragonsare intelligent Trying to think
of a fifth, but my fifth isalways the abalus.
That's for I find them fun.
I think they're silly.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, and I would say , if we were to like just toss
out a poll, this would be myprediction that the most popular
intelligent creatures and D&Dwould be beholders, dragons,
mind flayers, the gith, and thenLike Sphinxes, I bet you that
would be what I would see.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
One of the weird things with intelligent monsters
is there's a lot of monsterswho are like are they
intelligent, like dragons,especially where you have your
named dragons and your dragongods, who Almost always have a
level of we're smart enough todo the things, and you have the
one whose name I can't rememberright now I'm forgetting his
(10:40):
name who Basically createdwaterdeep.
Oh, yeah, I know, yeah, we'reand then he made this black
staff of waterdeep, whichprevents dragons from entering
waterdeep, and he lives inwaterdeep in one of the
underground areas and Just kindof exists there.
That's very clearly anintelligent Entity who is
(11:04):
thinking and making these plansand has all of this power at his
disposal.
But then you have ancient reddragon, number 27, who is
sitting in a cave hoarding gold.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And we'll hop into that in the next episode.
Actually, I think that's agreat plug.
Next episode is going to beentirely focused on dragons
Because they are personally myfavorite monster and D&D.
But they are so very widely,widely varied.
And it's where I kind of wantto talk because, especially as a
(11:36):
new DM, I loved to dragons, hadno idea how to run them because
ancient dragon number 57, howthe monster manual says to run,
it is Definitely not the bestway to run ancient dragon number
57.
You should be at least givinghim a name.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, and like the D&D movie, had the one dragon
who you see, the big chubbydragon who's named and I don't
remember his name right like I,just I Remember him being like
oh, that's not an intelligentdragon, it's in, it's a named
intelligent dragon, but it's notan intelligent dragon.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, they don't really show him very much.
He has a lot of lore,especially in the campaigns that
take place in the under dark.
He is a very, very well notablecharacter who has a couple of
monologues in some of thosepre-made campaigns.
That being said, they showedZero of his intelligence, which
I thought was a lost.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Basically just showed him, as we've added a big scary
beast to chase you around.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, and I was pretty sad about that, but I
mean they did really well in thein the movie, but I will say
the most iconic intelligentcreature of D&D, especially if
you've been playing longer thanfifth edition it's mindflayer's,
yeah, and even now withBaldur's gate.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Everyone knows what the mind flayers are and what
they do and, like the openingcutscene, you watch them See the
new mind flayer twice and it'slike, oh, these things are gross
and scary and aren't fromnormal places.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And like there's even those horrifying things like,
for example, one that's fun inyour campaigns is the.
What is it called?
Is it called like the psionicdragon or whatever it is, elder
Dragons?
Call it an Elder Dragon, whereit literally breathes a breath,
spray of Mind, flare, tadpoles.
That thing is scary and veryrememberable.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I enjoy Mind Flayers.
We found a way to.
We did an evil campaign onceupon a time and I decided I'd be
silly, goofy and play a mindplayer.
And that was an interesting onebecause D&D has had this issue
forever of the Psionic classeskind of being unbalanced, kind
(14:01):
of being.
Here's a thought.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, I will say that the Psionic classes are very,
very fun and I love that theyleft how the progression of the
Mind Flare tadpoles growing intoa full Mind Flare and they're
very vague for DMs to make theirown things.
I think that's a reallywonderful thing.
But like one staple is justkind of that.
As you use the Psionicabilities that the flares
(14:26):
tadpole gives you, it continuesto grow and eat your brain.
I like that.
I think it's a fun way to do it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
The typical way they do is they insert it through
usually the eye and then it justkind of like bites onto your
brain somewhere and then overtime slowly begins to just
consume and replace your brain.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah, and as a DM, when you have a player that is
infected with a Mind Flaretadpole which I have only ever
had a player asked to do once itis a lot of fun.
That D&D gave you someguidelines of what happens,
without telling me how to rum it, and I really enjoyed that.
I will say other ones that wetalked about that are kind of
interesting are.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Abolos.
Abolos are so weird and they'reinteresting and they're very
similar to the Mind Flayers andGith actually in their lore, so
I believe I don't know if it'sstill the same in 5e.
It used to be.
They were once the likedominant species on the like
(15:31):
normal material plane, on thenormal world, and then have
somehow lost their power.
I think it was like a SlaverBolt or something essentially.
But their whole thing is theirspicy Mind Flayers.
They dominate people's willsand make them work for them.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
What's kind of interesting about how they
differ and this is getting intoD&D lore and I think some people
may find this interesting.
But as you get further in Mind,flayers try to convert people
and that's how they made theirempire, and the reason they fell
was because of the Gith, whichare their sworn enemies, who
made if I remember correctly, itwas like a virus that nearly
(16:14):
wiped them out completely.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
The Gith rebelled because the Mind Flayers were
subjugating them.
And then the Gith rebelled madea virus that just destroyed
their civilization.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Whereas with the Abeloths, if I remember
correctly, the lore is somethingalong the lines of they had a
rebellion where people becamecertain people, certain chosen
individuals were resilient tothem and that kind of spread, as
time went on and passed, theability to resist their psionic
effects.
And I think that that's areally cool thought for a
(16:50):
campaign.
If you have one showing up, tohave one or two players who are
resistant, I think it's a greatidea.
It makes it it's weird.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
You would have to find a way to give everyone
something a little somethingspecial, and because otherwise
you'll have those two playerswho hopefully they're not like
this but they could be like thiswhere they go.
Oh, I'm resistant to it.
I am now the hero of the partyand take that main character
(17:19):
energy of I can do whatever Ishowed up, we win.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, and you'd have to make it where it's like
they're resistant to it butthey're not immune to it.
But you could come up withsomething fun there.
I think that that's somethingfun to kind of chew on and brew
on With intelligent monsters.
My my biggest struggle as anindividual is choosing how often
they should be used, and I havekind of defaulted back to Every
(17:45):
single time as much as I can,whenever I feel that I want them
to be, because they have moreintricate parts moving than the
simple monsters and I find themmore Engaging but that's
personally at my table that Ifound that so for me if I'm
gonna include something like anintelligent monster, whatever is
special about it.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
So usually Sphinx have something weird with
Knowledge.
They know more than most thingsdo, which is I can't remember
how they get there, likeforbidden knowledge, effectively
, but they have something extra.
So, using them as like a if youdo this task, solve this puzzle
for me, I'll give you somethingand Kind of including them in
(18:28):
that way.
I like to use Sphinxes as nonantagonistic, like truth
Sphinxes.
You know there's the fakeSphinxes, who are demons instead
of being just a differentspecies.
But by making it so these, theyhave a role to play, especially
if your campaigns like fate ofthe world.
(18:50):
A lot of these intelligentcreatures Especially if it's not
one of them who is trying todestroy your take over the world
Won't want them to.
So, like the drag, intelligentdragons don't want human king
number 27, who's become a tyrantwith a dragon, one dragon ally,
to conquer everything and justPush them all out of their homes
(19:15):
.
So those dragons aren't gonnajust sit there and be like have
a good day.
They're gonna be like here's alittle thing to beat them up or
some, not literally that, butthen including them in a way
that they help to move the storyalong.
Why did that be?
Oh, you beat the dragon and now,oh, these dragons have this
(19:37):
weakness, whether it besomething like in water deep,
where you have the black staffof water deep which stops
dragons.
Oh, a dragon stole it and hadit in its hoard.
So now, because we have thesespecial dragons, you can
actually obtain these things.
And If you're not doing waterdeep, you could, and include it
(20:00):
differently.
And because it wouldn't be theblack staff of water deep,
because water deep doesn't exist, but have that same kind of
idea to it so I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I think that that is probably the absolute best way
that you can plan to do it likeI have no comments.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
To further push that because you're right Like you
should always plan them to bepart of your story if, if
they're included and this iswhat's like, it's the, it's kind
of like the check-offs gun ifsomething's included.
Sometimes something's justgonna be there to be silly goofy
and you're gonna add thembecause it's funny.
But if you have something likeyou don't want to just throw in
(20:41):
a false Hydra Because it's acool idea, will throw a false
Hydra in.
But if you have a false Hydrawho is working for the big bad
and this city is where Somethreat is coming out of and it's
moved in and it's starting tolike slowly weaken it, then that
false Hydra feels like it fitsthere, whereas if you have it
(21:04):
just yeah, just took over thesmall village, then you can have
stuff like that that aren'tpart of the main plot but for
your main story things.
They should all play into oneanother in some way or they
won't feel like you did anything.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, and for me, I Follow a rule of thumb that I
actually feel like I can sharewith everyone.
I think that you should waituntil third or fourth level to
start introducing intelligentmonsters.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And I think that depends on the how they're going
to be used.
If you like, you could have abehold.
If you're doing likespelljammer there's the beholder
who owns the tavern Then youcan include them in the world
without them being good, evil,anything really.
They're just kind of there andexisting.
But they shouldn't be a forceRelating in relation to your
(21:59):
party until later levels,because otherwise they're either
smart enough to be like well,if I take this person who's
Doing this thing for me becausethey're gonna be stronger than
the party, why don't I just makethem work for me?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, I and I agree with that and that's why I would
say 3rd or 4th level is likeperfect.
Obviously there's the happybeholder in Spellsjammer where
absolutely, yeah, he's gonna bein there.
You're gonna have some goblinssometimes that are gonna be
friendly and in the town, butother than like NPCs that the
players can interact with, Iwould say I wouldn't even start
introducing hobgoblins in theseintelligent like tribes until
(22:39):
3rd or 4th level.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I think that's dependent on what you're going
for with your story, becausegoblins and kobolds are kind of
your basic run of the mill gruntenemies, especially for larger
organizations.
You can include them there andhave them be like your
introduction to this big bed.
(23:00):
And this is one of my big gripeswith one of the pre made
campaigns, which was for in thefirst section of the Rise of TMA
, where you're in the town, yousave the town from the kobolds,
basically, and then one of thelieutenants is there just to
beat someone up.
Like nine out of ten timesyou're going to lose to the
(23:21):
level four fighter becauseyou're level two.
So, like by including an actual, fully intelligent thing at
level two, the party's effortseems pointless to me,
especially in that campaignwhere it's like oh so we saved
the, we fought through this town, just to get beaten up again by
(23:45):
an unrelated guy.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Basically, yeah, absolutely, and that's why I
think I personally like to waituntil your level three or four.
So if you decide to fight ahuman I mean most human bandits
aren't going to be level onebandits.
You're not going to wake up onemorning and be like I'm going
to go mug somebody.
They've probably been doing itfor a while.
They're probably like levelthree.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
They're going to be level two, level three, Ish.
It'll depend on where you areto.
If you're in the middle ofnowhere, they might be a level
one bandit, but if you're on amajor highway, like going to the
main city you know your King'sRoad or whatever that goes from
your capital across the countryall of those bandits are going
(24:24):
to be level five or up and Iagree, because of their targets.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, and with that, I definitely think that's why,
for me again, I follow that ruleof thumb of three.
I think at level three, a sixperson party can fight for level
two bandits, and that's just mypersonal opinion.
Um, should you ever reallyremove power from monsters, or
(24:51):
do you ever remove power frommonsters in order to make them
appear sooner?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So the if I remove power from a monster, typically
nine to out of ten times likethere might be the one time
where it's like they reallywanted to fight a thing.
I'm gonna include this thing sothey can fight it, and then
it's like you got to give themsomething because it's like a
few parties Always wanted tofight a, let's say, a beholder.
You might remove the anti-magiccone from the beholder and be
(25:18):
like oh, it has some Defect inits creation and doesn't have it
it has a scar over that eye orsomething.
Yeah, something where it's like,okay, they have this power
normally, this one doesn't.
So your party can fight it, andbecause they've always wanted
to fight a beholder.
But what I prefer to do thanbefore, as opposed to just like
(25:40):
removing a power, is to use itas a Element to what their goal
is.
For a campaign that I've beenworking on, I have an enemy
whose whole thing is he's hiding.
So if the party finds him, ortoo early, before he's like
supposed to be, here's the bigbad reveal of the guy.
(26:01):
He's not gonna Throw a ninthlevel spell out.
He's not just gonna say, well,you die now.
He's gonna play the part of I'mnot some big, crazy threat, I
am a little guy, I'm just likeyou.
I'm gonna shoot a bow at youand he's gonna do something
that's not really his forte as aI'm not the threat play and and
(26:26):
that can go for something likea mind flayer.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
A dragon might toy around with them, because he
knows he's just strong girlalready and you can remove the
powers without like Weakeningthat power in a more permanent
way and I'll bring this upbecause you mentioned mind
flares my favorite thing to dowith mind flares if somebody
stumbles on them early, it'sjust give a psionic tadpole,
like it is something that isminor and for me, the mechanic I
(26:51):
like to run for mind flares isthey give you psionic powers and
as you use those you become amind flare.
I think it's fun.
I think most of my playersusually like it, and then it
doesn't feel like oh man, weaccidentally stumbled into the
mind flare horde.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Now we're dead, yeah, and especially if it's like a
low-level party and you havestuff planned for a spot and
they stumble onto it, they walkinto the mind flayer.
Dan May, you can rework asupposed to be dangerous
encounter into something alittle less Deadly and a little
more like a.
The mind flayer is going.
(27:24):
You can help us with this thingand We'll give you a gift and
they're going to be doingsomething that's a little
stronger than the party canreally deal with, at least right
away, so that it feels like adevil's bargain almost, which I
(27:45):
always enjoyed.
It try to include into acampaign.
I give players opportunities todo devil bargains.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
It's fun and and even with like for example dragons,
like if your players stumbleinto the dragon den that you
have planned, the dragon's notjust gonna sit there and sleep
the whole time, it's going toroar and they're going to
scatter and.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Then this fun thing you can do with dragons and
wyverns and anything big, scarylizards that fly or run.
You can have them chase theparty and not really threaten
the party.
I've seen one where it's like,oh there's, they're trying to
get to this town.
The town's like keeping awyvern away with cross bow, like
(28:30):
they can't think of the nameright now Ballistos, that's what
they're called, ballast, doesyou know?
Shooting out at it.
So it's staying away from thetown far enough.
Your party trying to get to thetown has to go through the
clearing between the forest andthe town in this like city.
That's where the wyverns aregoing to be chilling at.
So the wyverns are going to seethe party and be that's a snack
(28:53):
.
Start chasing them.
So then it becomes a theparty's running away from the
wyvern.
That's not really a threat tothem and you can include them
like kind of in that way ofthey're there, they're a not
dangerous threat At the momentand unless you're running like a
black dragon or a blue dragonthat Specifically wants all
(29:17):
humans dead, usually dragons aregonna try to recruit them.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
on first attempt they're gonna be like, hey, you
want to help me?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, like that dragon might be trying to Grab
the party and be like yoink.
I need you to go in the cityand destroy the ballastas.
Yeah because it can't,especially if it's a city like
water deep, where the dragonliterally cannot enter.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, and so with intelligence monsters, they're
always going to try to defaultto tricking you before killing
you.
So if your party stumbles onthem to low level, that's a way
where I don't have to rip poweraway from that monster and make
it feel unfun, but also I can belike hey guys, you shouldn't
mess with this thing, yet itallows for the party to meet the
monster.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Go, oh, that's a scary monster.
And then get out and this isgoing to be some trade or some
trick the dragon's going to use.
Maybe it's give me a hundredgold.
Go, get me a hundred gold, bringit back here and he just wants
to throw it on his heart andlook at it, because gold is
(30:23):
pretty, I guess why it allowsthose monsters to still be a
threat without Physicallythreatening the party.
So you, especially if my take,if your, if your party is going
to die in the campaign and bythat I mean to reflect two or
three people, are probablysomeone's gonna die throughout
the campaign Sessions you're,you'd be like, hey, there's a
(30:46):
high chance to die in thiscampaign, just so everyone knows
.
Yeah, but unless you're doingthat, but these giant monsters,
if they meet them early,shouldn't be a major threat, but
they can be antagonistic andthe things that are like when
you're thinking aboutintelligent monsters.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
They have goals.
Whereas we've mentioned dragons, a ton and the unintelligent
counterpart to dragons is hydras.
Hydras have a very lowintelligence.
They are going to eat Whateverwalks in front of their face.
So if your player stumbles onyour dragon, big bad, he's gonna
start by trying to recruit themrather than kill them.
(31:22):
Killing them right away wouldbe much more of like a hydra
action.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, and because these are intelligent, they're
smart and they're thinking.
With any intelligent monster,if it sees something that it
doesn't view as a threat, itisn't enough food for it to like
really care about.
It's gonna try to get somethingout of it.
It's not gonna like hunt themdown.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Alright, and that's gonna be all for this episode.
Thank you for listening to thevery end.
We do appreciate everyone'ssupport.
As we said, if you want to seemore content like this, please
check out our YouTube channel,and next week we will be back
talking about dragons, which isby far my favorite topic in D&D.
All right, welcome back to the next episode of DMI.
I just wanted to take a realquick moment to say thank you to
everyone who's been listeningto.
This point Really does mean alot, especially as we're
crossing this large milestone ofgoing over 100 downloads.
We really appreciate all of thesupport that people have given
to the channel and all the kindcomments.
So, going forward, today ourtopic is going to be intelligent
(00:22):
creatures, and I am joined bythe one the only, okay, but the
one, the only Jay Cerulean.
So, with creatures in mind, Imean they play, as we mentioned
in our monsters episode.
They play a massive part inevery single encounter that
you're going to have in D&D andit's kind of one of those things
(00:44):
where the more intelligent thecreature, the more effort you
have to do into planning theencounter.
That being said, where is thatkind of line where you would
consider a monster, the linewhere you would consider a
creature like really anintelligent creature rather than
just a base mob Like would youconsider like a goblin and an
intelligent monster?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So a lot of it comes on organization.
So for me it's based on howorganized it is.
Like one goblin chilling in acamp is like, especially because
they're a playable race,they're not unintelligent, but
one goblin isn't going to beyour typical, like intelligent
creature, whereas like if youhave a goblin horde who's living
(01:23):
through these cave systems andhave like a full thing going on
in there, then that kind of hitsthat point of okay, this isn't
just a monster, it's nowsomething intelligent and doing
thing.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, and I think that that's a fair way to look
at it, because the intelligenceof different monsters is, like,
I would say, a pretty bigdifferential thing and
especially as we get into thesemore monster races that for some
reason Wizards is reallygetting into I've noticed at
least, and I really enjoyplaying them because they can be
(01:55):
a lot of fun to play some ofthe monster races it's only
widening that kind of gap.
I feel like I mean, we're stillat this point where there's some
quote unquote intelligentmonsters like you can't really
play a mind flare, you can'treally play a dragon.
There's a couple races stillwhere they haven't let us play
them.
But then there's cobalts, whichnow have a playable race, and
(02:17):
there's goblins, which I wouldpreviously have said are a
little less of an intelligentrace.
But I would say the kind of thebreaking point for me would be
there's this intelligent andthere's this really intelligent
category.
I would say your intelligentmonsters would be like your
cobalts, your goblins, all ofyour things that are gonna be
thinking through plans, scheming, especially hobgoblins, and
(02:39):
then you have your reallyintelligent monsters where we
start to get into dragons, somedeities some people consider
intelligent monsters and like Imean, what's another great one
Like the Asimar originallystarted out.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
The Asimar were an interesting one where they
started because they started aslike demigods almost.
And then we're like well, let'smake them something more usable
instead of just being thesevery weirdly specific they're
not angels, demigod type figures.
So then when they pulled themdown to being actually playable,
(03:15):
they kind of lost that level oflike oh, they're a smart
monster.
They became kind of like humans, where a human realistically
would be like an intelligentcreature or monster.
But, there's no one's gonna say, oh, that's an intelligent
monster, because it's a human.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, and like obviously for creatures and
monsters and whatnot, likethere's obviously the ones that
are unintelligent like oozes,yeah, and like wolves are.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
They have like basic pack tactic type stuff, but they
aren't intelligent enough tolike, oh, we're gonna build a
base, we're gonna go to this onespot because we know that
there's gonna be a group ofpeople who will have something
for us to steal.
But they'll be like well,there's usually food here, so
we'll go here because there'sfood there.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
And that's how you have to think about it when
you're playing it too, I mean,unless you disagree, I think
it's really important thatyou're asking yourself the
question of well, how much arethey actually thinking?
Is there just food here, or isthere things to steal here?
Because if they're thinkingabout those kind of higher
thoughts, they're obviously muchmore of an intelligent monster.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
It kind of comes down to the level of how they want
to be thinking.
If they're thinking of just,this is where food is, this is
where something safe is, kind ofthat more primal level of just
either I am here because thereis this or I am there because
there is not this they becomeless of an intelligent creature
(04:41):
and more of just kind of thatacting on instinctual knowledge,
Whereas something like a groupof cobalts under the direction
of because cobalts typicallyindividually aren't intelligent
monsters, but then you get intolike the Horde of the Dragon
Queen, where they becomeintelligent monsters because
someone's telling them what todo Can kind of branch that gap
(05:02):
from just a monster that canthink into being an actual
intelligent monster.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, and there's those weird ones like for me
when I'm always questioningwhether they're actually
intelligent or not would be, forexample, intellect devourers,
where they chase psionic wavesand they kind of tend to form
patterns based on where thereare psionic waves, but they're
an underdark monster thatdoesn't have a really high
(05:29):
intelligence.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So for intellect devourers it kind of depends on
what way you're running them,and because of stuff like
there's in the game Baldur'sGate, you can get one who's
smart enough to be like we needto leave.
We need to leave this place,it's going to die.
So you can have some that are alittle more intelligent because
they come out of people'sbrains, especially if they are
(05:54):
the ones built by a lithid ormindflake.
But then you have your moreunderdark monster ones as well.
There's kind of those two areasfor that specific monster.
But sometimes there are thoseweird ones that kind of bridge
this gap of they have a targetbecause of something they can
tell versus are they going aftera target because it's a target?
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And I think an important thing to remember when
you're playing intelligentmonsters is you can have a
really, really dumb monster raceand still have an intelligent
creature in that race.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, like, usually, one of the weird ones we
mentioned earlier is goblins.
Goblins typically are prettylike instinct.
They're a little moreintelligent than like your
wolves and your normal animals.
Typically they're just kind ofa pack that roams around hunting
and killing things and stealingtheir things because they're
shiny.
But as soon as you put, oh, nowthere's some hobgoblins here,
(06:52):
there's some of these othervarieties of goblins, usually
they start thinking and theybecome more organized as they
diversify a little bit and thenyou can have something where, oh
, this person comes in and tellsthem what to do and they very
quickly go from being, you knowlike how a pack of wolves is
(07:14):
kind of organized, to being anactual militia force.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, and I think an important question is, as we go
further in here, what are wegoing to consider monsters and
what are we going to considerraces?
Because D&D's come into thisplace now where you there's
guidelines for playingnon-playable monsters, Like I
have had a friend of mine whowas running one of the I can't
(07:41):
remember what they're called,but the big bugs from the
underdark as his character.
Like that's not a playable race.
That being said, there areguidelines and even books where
they have released them asplayable races.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
A lot of time.
To me it comes down to isbecause they are pretty clear in
all of the rulings what's amonstrous race and what's a
normal race.
And, like ASMR, aren't amonstrous race, they're just a
normal race.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Now I believe goblins and cobalts are both considered
monstrous races, same thingwith bugbears, where all of them
are intelligent creatures andspecies, but they are still kind
of on that player characterlevel of intellect and not
beyond it where like a mindflayer is going to be sitting
(08:27):
and that's why, like when youand I were planning this episode
and we were talking about it,we chose to go with the title of
intelligent creatures, becauseAsimaur are in the monster
manual and they're an enemy thatyou can fight, but they're not
a monster, they're anintelligent creature, or an
intelligent being though thatsame kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Thought goes then with like human bandits or
whatever kind of bandits elvenbandits, if you wanted to do
elves where they're justantagonistic player races
Towards, whatever the goal is,whether that be they're just
trying to rob a group ofadventurers or if they're trying
to actively stop them fromdoing the thing now I will say
(09:10):
there are some Monsters andcreatures that are uses, enemies
and D&D that are intelligentand I bet you there are just
five that stick out that both ofus can name.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
What would you say are the top five.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
So I Don't know.
I for me, because I also havethat like Mythology side to yeah
, for me some of them are likeSphinxes are really fun
intelligent monster to includeBecause they'll give you riddles
usually and then you get tocome up with riddles and make
somebody really upset.
Then you can do like yourbeholders, which everyone uses
(09:43):
mind flayers, drat, some dragonsare intelligent Trying to think
of a fifth, but my fifth isalways the abalus.
That's for I find them fun.
I think they're silly.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, and I would say , if we were to like just toss
out a poll, this would be myprediction that the most popular
intelligent creatures and D&Dwould be beholders, dragons,
mind flayers, the gith, and thenLike Sphinxes, I bet you that
would be what I would see.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
One of the weird things with intelligent monsters
is there's a lot of monsterswho are like are they
intelligent, like dragons,especially where you have your
named dragons and your dragongods, who Almost always have a
level of we're smart enough todo the things, and you have the
one whose name I can't rememberright now I'm forgetting his
(10:40):
name who Basically createdwaterdeep.
Oh, yeah, I know, yeah, we'reand then he made this black
staff of waterdeep, whichprevents dragons from entering
waterdeep, and he lives inwaterdeep in one of the
underground areas and Just kindof exists there.
That's very clearly anintelligent Entity who is
(11:04):
thinking and making these plansand has all of this power at his
disposal.
But then you have ancient reddragon, number 27, who is
sitting in a cave hoarding gold.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And we'll hop into that in the next episode.
Actually, I think that's agreat plug.
Next episode is going to beentirely focused on dragons
Because they are personally myfavorite monster and D&D.
But they are so very widely,widely varied.
And it's where I kind of wantto talk because, especially as a
(11:36):
new DM, I loved to dragons, hadno idea how to run them because
ancient dragon number 57, howthe monster manual says to run,
it is Definitely not the bestway to run ancient dragon number
57.
You should be at least givinghim a name.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, and like the D&D movie, had the one dragon
who you see, the big chubbydragon who's named and I don't
remember his name right like I,just I Remember him being like
oh, that's not an intelligentdragon, it's in, it's a named
intelligent dragon, but it's notan intelligent dragon.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, they don't really show him very much.
He has a lot of lore,especially in the campaigns that
take place in the under dark.
He is a very, very well notablecharacter who has a couple of
monologues in some of thosepre-made campaigns.
That being said, they showedZero of his intelligence, which
I thought was a lost.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Basically just showed him, as we've added a big scary
beast to chase you around.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, and I was pretty sad about that, but I
mean they did really well in thein the movie, but I will say
the most iconic intelligentcreature of D&D, especially if
you've been playing longer thanfifth edition it's mindflayer's,
yeah, and even now withBaldur's gate.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Everyone knows what the mind flayers are and what
they do and, like the openingcutscene, you watch them See the
new mind flayer twice and it'slike, oh, these things are gross
and scary and aren't fromnormal places.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
And like there's even those horrifying things like,
for example, one that's fun inyour campaigns is the.
What is it called?
Is it called like the psionicdragon or whatever it is, elder
Dragons?
Call it an Elder Dragon, whereit literally breathes a breath,
spray of Mind, flare, tadpoles.
That thing is scary and veryrememberable.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
I enjoy Mind Flayers.
We found a way to.
We did an evil campaign onceupon a time and I decided I'd be
silly, goofy and play a mindplayer.
And that was an interesting onebecause D&D has had this issue
forever of the Psionic classeskind of being unbalanced, kind
(14:01):
of being.
Here's a thought.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, I will say that the Psionic classes are very,
very fun and I love that theyleft how the progression of the
Mind Flare tadpoles growing intoa full Mind Flare and they're
very vague for DMs to make theirown things.
I think that's a reallywonderful thing.
But like one staple is justkind of that.
As you use the Psionicabilities that the flares
(14:26):
tadpole gives you, it continuesto grow and eat your brain.
I like that.
I think it's a fun way to do it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
The typical way they do is they insert it through
usually the eye and then it justkind of like bites onto your
brain somewhere and then overtime slowly begins to just
consume and replace your brain.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah, and as a DM, when you have a player that is
infected with a Mind Flaretadpole which I have only ever
had a player asked to do once itis a lot of fun.
That D&D gave you someguidelines of what happens,
without telling me how to rum it, and I really enjoyed that.
I will say other ones that wetalked about that are kind of
interesting are.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Abolos.
Abolos are so weird and they'reinteresting and they're very
similar to the Mind Flayers andGith actually in their lore, so
I believe I don't know if it'sstill the same in 5e.
It used to be.
They were once the likedominant species on the like
(15:31):
normal material plane, on thenormal world, and then have
somehow lost their power.
I think it was like a SlaverBolt or something essentially.
But their whole thing is theirspicy Mind Flayers.
They dominate people's willsand make them work for them.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
What's kind of interesting about how they
differ and this is getting intoD&D lore and I think some people
may find this interesting.
But as you get further in Mind,flayers try to convert people
and that's how they made theirempire, and the reason they fell
was because of the Gith, whichare their sworn enemies, who
made if I remember correctly, itwas like a virus that nearly
(16:14):
wiped them out completely.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
The Gith rebelled because the Mind Flayers were
subjugating them.
And then the Gith rebelled madea virus that just destroyed
their civilization.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Whereas with the Abeloths, if I remember
correctly, the lore is somethingalong the lines of they had a
rebellion where people becamecertain people, certain chosen
individuals were resilient tothem and that kind of spread, as
time went on and passed, theability to resist their psionic
effects.
And I think that that's areally cool thought for a
(16:50):
campaign.
If you have one showing up, tohave one or two players who are
resistant, I think it's a greatidea.
It makes it it's weird.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
You would have to find a way to give everyone
something a little somethingspecial, and because otherwise
you'll have those two playerswho hopefully they're not like
this but they could be like thiswhere they go.
Oh, I'm resistant to it.
I am now the hero of the partyand take that main character
(17:19):
energy of I can do whatever Ishowed up, we win.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, and you'd have to make it where it's like
they're resistant to it butthey're not immune to it.
But you could come up withsomething fun there.
I think that that's somethingfun to kind of chew on and brew
on With intelligent monsters.
My my biggest struggle as anindividual is choosing how often
they should be used, and I havekind of defaulted back to Every
(17:45):
single time as much as I can,whenever I feel that I want them
to be, because they have moreintricate parts moving than the
simple monsters and I find themmore Engaging but that's
personally at my table that Ifound that so for me if I'm
gonna include something like anintelligent monster, whatever is
special about it.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
So usually Sphinx have something weird with
Knowledge.
They know more than most thingsdo, which is I can't remember
how they get there, likeforbidden knowledge, effectively
, but they have something extra.
So, using them as like a if youdo this task, solve this puzzle
for me, I'll give you somethingand Kind of including them in
(18:28):
that way.
I like to use Sphinxes as nonantagonistic, like truth
Sphinxes.
You know there's the fakeSphinxes, who are demons instead
of being just a differentspecies.
But by making it so these, theyhave a role to play, especially
if your campaigns like fate ofthe world.
(18:50):
A lot of these intelligentcreatures Especially if it's not
one of them who is trying todestroy your take over the world
Won't want them to.
So, like the drag, intelligentdragons don't want human king
number 27, who's become a tyrantwith a dragon, one dragon ally,
to conquer everything and justPush them all out of their homes
(19:15):
.
So those dragons aren't gonnajust sit there and be like have
a good day.
They're gonna be like here's alittle thing to beat them up or
some, not literally that, butthen including them in a way
that they help to move the storyalong.
Why did that be?
Oh, you beat the dragon and now,oh, these dragons have this
(19:37):
weakness, whether it besomething like in water deep,
where you have the black staffof water deep which stops
dragons.
Oh, a dragon stole it and hadit in its hoard.
So now, because we have thesespecial dragons, you can
actually obtain these things.
And If you're not doing waterdeep, you could, and include it
(20:00):
differently.
And because it wouldn't be theblack staff of water deep,
because water deep doesn't exist, but have that same kind of
idea to it so I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I think that that is probably the absolute best way
that you can plan to do it likeI have no comments.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
To further push that because you're right Like you
should always plan them to bepart of your story if, if
they're included and this iswhat's like, it's the, it's kind
of like the check-offs gun ifsomething's included.
Sometimes something's justgonna be there to be silly goofy
and you're gonna add thembecause it's funny.
But if you have something likeyou don't want to just throw in
(20:41):
a false Hydra Because it's acool idea, will throw a false
Hydra in.
But if you have a false Hydrawho is working for the big bad
and this city is where Somethreat is coming out of and it's
moved in and it's starting tolike slowly weaken it, then that
false Hydra feels like it fitsthere, whereas if you have it
(21:04):
just yeah, just took over thesmall village, then you can have
stuff like that that aren'tpart of the main plot but for
your main story things.
They should all play into oneanother in some way or they
won't feel like you did anything.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, and for me, I Follow a rule of thumb that I
actually feel like I can sharewith everyone.
I think that you should waituntil third or fourth level to
start introducing intelligentmonsters.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And I think that depends on the how they're going
to be used.
If you like, you could have abehold.
If you're doing likespelljammer there's the beholder
who owns the tavern Then youcan include them in the world
without them being good, evil,anything really.
They're just kind of there andexisting.
But they shouldn't be a forceRelating in relation to your
(21:59):
party until later levels,because otherwise they're either
smart enough to be like well,if I take this person who's
Doing this thing for me becausethey're gonna be stronger than
the party, why don't I just makethem work for me?
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, I and I agree with that and that's why I would
say 3rd or 4th level is likeperfect.
Obviously there's the happybeholder in Spellsjammer where
absolutely, yeah, he's gonna bein there.
You're gonna have some goblinssometimes that are gonna be
friendly and in the town, butother than like NPCs that the
players can interact with, Iwould say I wouldn't even start
introducing hobgoblins in theseintelligent like tribes until
(22:39):
3rd or 4th level.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I think that's dependent on what you're going
for with your story, becausegoblins and kobolds are kind of
your basic run of the mill gruntenemies, especially for larger
organizations.
You can include them there andhave them be like your
introduction to this big bed.
(23:00):
And this is one of my big gripeswith one of the pre made
campaigns, which was for in thefirst section of the Rise of TMA
, where you're in the town, yousave the town from the kobolds,
basically, and then one of thelieutenants is there just to
beat someone up.
Like nine out of ten timesyou're going to lose to the
(23:21):
level four fighter becauseyou're level two.
So, like by including an actual, fully intelligent thing at
level two, the party's effortseems pointless to me,
especially in that campaignwhere it's like oh so we saved
the, we fought through this town, just to get beaten up again by
(23:45):
an unrelated guy.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Basically, yeah, absolutely, and that's why I
think I personally like to waituntil your level three or four.
So if you decide to fight ahuman I mean most human bandits
aren't going to be level onebandits.
You're not going to wake up onemorning and be like I'm going
to go mug somebody.
They've probably been doing itfor a while.
They're probably like levelthree.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
They're going to be level two, level three, Ish.
It'll depend on where you areto.
If you're in the middle ofnowhere, they might be a level
one bandit, but if you're on amajor highway, like going to the
main city you know your King'sRoad or whatever that goes from
your capital across the countryall of those bandits are going
(24:24):
to be level five or up and Iagree, because of their targets.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, and with that, I definitely think that's why,
for me again, I follow that ruleof thumb of three.
I think at level three, a sixperson party can fight for level
two bandits, and that's just mypersonal opinion.
Um, should you ever reallyremove power from monsters, or
(24:51):
do you ever remove power frommonsters in order to make them
appear sooner?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So the if I remove power from a monster, typically
nine to out of ten times likethere might be the one time
where it's like they reallywanted to fight a thing.
I'm gonna include this thing sothey can fight it, and then
it's like you got to give themsomething because it's like a
few parties Always wanted tofight a, let's say, a beholder.
You might remove the anti-magiccone from the beholder and be
(25:18):
like oh, it has some Defect inits creation and doesn't have it
it has a scar over that eye orsomething.
Yeah, something where it's like,okay, they have this power
normally, this one doesn't.
So your party can fight it, andbecause they've always wanted
to fight a beholder.
But what I prefer to do thanbefore, as opposed to just like
(25:40):
removing a power, is to use itas a Element to what their goal
is.
For a campaign that I've beenworking on, I have an enemy
whose whole thing is he's hiding.
So if the party finds him, ortoo early, before he's like
supposed to be, here's the bigbad reveal of the guy.
(26:01):
He's not gonna Throw a ninthlevel spell out.
He's not just gonna say, well,you die now.
He's gonna play the part of I'mnot some big, crazy threat, I
am a little guy, I'm just likeyou.
I'm gonna shoot a bow at youand he's gonna do something
that's not really his forte as aI'm not the threat play and and
(26:26):
that can go for something likea mind flayer.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
A dragon might toy around with them, because he
knows he's just strong girlalready and you can remove the
powers without like Weakeningthat power in a more permanent
way and I'll bring this upbecause you mentioned mind
flares my favorite thing to dowith mind flares if somebody
stumbles on them early, it'sjust give a psionic tadpole,
like it is something that isminor and for me, the mechanic I
(26:51):
like to run for mind flares isthey give you psionic powers and
as you use those you become amind flare.
I think it's fun.
I think most of my playersusually like it, and then it
doesn't feel like oh man, weaccidentally stumbled into the
mind flare horde.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
Now we're dead, yeah, and especially if it's like a
low-level party and you havestuff planned for a spot and
they stumble onto it, they walkinto the mind flayer.
Dan May, you can rework asupposed to be dangerous
encounter into something alittle less Deadly and a little
more like a.
The mind flayer is going.
(27:24):
You can help us with this thingand We'll give you a gift and
they're going to be doingsomething that's a little
stronger than the party canreally deal with, at least right
away, so that it feels like adevil's bargain almost, which I
(27:45):
always enjoyed.
It try to include into acampaign.
I give players opportunities todo devil bargains.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
It's fun and and even with like for example dragons,
like if your players stumbleinto the dragon den that you
have planned, the dragon's notjust gonna sit there and sleep
the whole time, it's going toroar and they're going to
scatter and.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Then this fun thing you can do with dragons and
wyverns and anything big, scarylizards that fly or run.
You can have them chase theparty and not really threaten
the party.
I've seen one where it's like,oh there's, they're trying to
get to this town.
The town's like keeping awyvern away with cross bow, like
(28:30):
they can't think of the nameright now Ballistos, that's what
they're called, ballast, doesyou know?
Shooting out at it.
So it's staying away from thetown far enough.
Your party trying to get to thetown has to go through the
clearing between the forest andthe town in this like city.
That's where the wyverns aregoing to be chilling at.
So the wyverns are going to seethe party and be that's a snack
(28:53):
.
Start chasing them.
So then it becomes a theparty's running away from the
wyvern.
That's not really a threat tothem and you can include them
like kind of in that way ofthey're there, they're a not
dangerous threat At the momentand unless you're running like a
black dragon or a blue dragonthat Specifically wants all
(29:17):
humans dead, usually dragons aregonna try to recruit them.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
on first attempt they're gonna be like, hey, you
want to help me?
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, like that dragon might be trying to Grab
the party and be like yoink.
I need you to go in the cityand destroy the ballastas.
Yeah because it can't,especially if it's a city like
water deep, where the dragonliterally cannot enter.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, and so with intelligence monsters, they're
always going to try to defaultto tricking you before killing
you.
So if your party stumbles onthem to low level, that's a way
where I don't have to rip poweraway from that monster and make
it feel unfun, but also I can belike hey guys, you shouldn't
mess with this thing, yet itallows for the party to meet the
monster.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Go, oh, that's a scary monster.
And then get out and this isgoing to be some trade or some
trick the dragon's going to use.
Maybe it's give me a hundredgold.
Go, get me a hundred gold, bringit back here and he just wants
to throw it on his heart andlook at it, because gold is
(30:23):
pretty, I guess why it allowsthose monsters to still be a
threat without Physicallythreatening the party.
So you, especially if my take,if your, if your party is going
to die in the campaign and bythat I mean to reflect two or
three people, are probablysomeone's gonna die throughout
the campaign Sessions you're,you'd be like, hey, there's a
(30:46):
high chance to die in thiscampaign, just so everyone knows
.
Yeah, but unless you're doingthat, but these giant monsters,
if they meet them early,shouldn't be a major threat, but
they can be antagonistic andthe things that are like when
you're thinking aboutintelligent monsters.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
They have goals.
Whereas we've mentioned dragons, a ton and the unintelligent
counterpart to dragons is hydras.
Hydras have a very lowintelligence.
They are going to eat Whateverwalks in front of their face.
So if your player stumbles onyour dragon, big bad, he's gonna
start by trying to recruit themrather than kill them.
(31:22):
Killing them right away wouldbe much more of like a hydra
action.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, and because these are intelligent, they're
smart and they're thinking.
With any intelligent monster,if it sees something that it
doesn't view as a threat, itisn't enough food for it to like
really care about.
It's gonna try to get somethingout of it.
It's not gonna like hunt themdown.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Alright, and that's gonna be all for this episode.
Thank you for listening to thevery end.
We do appreciate everyone'ssupport.
As we said, if you want to seemore content like this, please
check out our YouTube channel,and next week we will be back
talking about dragons, which isby far my favorite topic in D&D.
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