October 29, 2023 • 57 mins
Embark on a journey with us into the mystical realms of gods and pantheons in gaming. Joined by our esteemed guest, Cameron, a D&D maestro with nine years of play to his name, we navigate the thrilling challenges of weaving divine entities into immersive game narratives. From the enigmatic AO, creator god of the Forgotten Realms universe, to the provocative concept of neutral observer versus active participant, we dig deep into the divine power dynamics that shape the game world.
In part two, we unpack the intriguing aspects of deities, their domains and alignments, as they contribute to the creation of captivating game worlds. We invite you to listen in as Cameron presents his unique view on lawful, good archdevils, the correlation of gods and pantheons to specific planes, and his aversion to assigning alignments to higher entities. It's a thought-stirring discussion on the challenge of role-playing a god, the significance of creating gods with specific domains, and how it all enriches the game narrative.
As we round off, we delve into the intriguing concept of belief being the source of power for deities, inspired by the D&D's Kua Toa, a creature capable of creating gods through worship. We explore how this idea can be extrapolated to other worlds and how players can use it to shape their characters and give them purpose. Cameron shares his personal experience of playing a cleric with the ambition to become a god of peace. We wrap up by emphasizing the gravity of respecting the power of gods and deities in campaigns. Join us for an enlightening conversation packed with insights and advice on incorporating gods into your game settings.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. If you are interested in seeing more content like this check out our YouTube! We also post weekly game articles on our Patreon and have an active Discord community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yeah, so this is going to be episode three.
We're going to be talking aboutgods and the different
pantheons and how you canincorporate them into your game.
Today, we're not really goingto talk about building the
pantheon.
I think that's going to be afocus for another time, because
I think we could have at least aone to two hour conversation
about it, definitely.
(00:21):
But I'm your host, white, andthis is going to be our first
time having a guest star.
If you'd like to introduceyourself, Hi, I'm Cameron
Perkins.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Over the course of, I've played D&D for a little
over nine years since I was 13.
Yeah, actually before I was 13.
I started shortly before Iturned 13 and I just turned 21.
So a little over nine years, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense,
yeah that's how time works.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I think so A little over nine years now, and I have
run in that time, I'd saysomewhere between 15 and 20
games.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, that's not bad.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
My longest running one is the first game I ever
actually ran which is stillrunning.
Now we're approaching nineyears on one on running game.
Oh, it's level 13.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh my God, how much XP have you been giving them?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Don't do XP I do Okay .
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So you're not like torturing them and making them
just sit there and talk to eachother for seven hours.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
No, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
At least I'm not that player, I'm not the DM.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I actually like the XP system a lot, so that's what
I usually go with.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It's not bad.
It needs a rebalance.
That's a topic for anotherepisode.
Very true.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So we'll start off our kind of discussion today
with a very fundamental idea ofwhen you're talking about the
Pantheon, and that comes down towhether you want to actually
have your gods involved in theplot or whether you're kind of
having them just as neutralobservers, and I think both are
pretty valid and I would say theonly way to really run a game
(02:12):
is to kind of have a little bitof both.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I would say the level you're kind of you're right and
I would say that it's kind ofhard to argue with that opinion.
I would add, on the level ofinvolvement they have kind of
depends on the exact story andcampaign you're running.
Because, for example, right nowI'm running a campaign which is
(02:37):
like sort of like a survivalbased sort of campaign, survival
and you know, like for itforaging and like colony
building, actually like citybuilding.
They're literally I have made asystem for them to like build a
city and they, gods, aren'treally going to be that involved
(02:58):
in that, obviously.
But if you're running acampaign where it's like the
world's at danger because someexistential threat is happening,
they're going to be a lot moreso really.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So I agree with your statement, but I think it kind
of also depends on theindividual God we're talking
about.
That's also true Because Ithink, I think a big part of it
is going to be like your gods,like I really like how forgotten
realms doesn't like a thecreator of the universe.
He could give a flying hellless what happens.
Yeah, he does not care, he justis sitting back watching for
(03:36):
entertainment purposes.
The only time.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
The only time AO cares is when something happens
that screws with the what hewants, which is honestly valid.
But also he's kind of selfishbecause he at one point he
decided hey, gods, all of you,you're not gods anymore.
Set them down to the mortalplane.
I think it's the times oftrouble or whatever, which I
(04:01):
real quick I love the fact Inthat in that, like times of
trouble thing, the one God hedidn't strip of his power was
Helm, who was like the God of,like guardians and defenders,
and the reason is because he puthim at the door of heaven and
said let nobody in, yeah, andthen Mr tried to get in and he
(04:22):
murders.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, and then there's.
Then there's your characterslike um well, be a good one like
Tiren.
Tiren's pretty involved.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Tiren likes to like be very hands on because he's
trying to get a lot of likestrength and battle and stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right.
So like Helm, you people likeno, he's war and evil, if I
remember correctly.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Is he Hold on?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Who's?
Who's the one that's evil?
I can't remember Evil and war.
I can't remember.
I thought it starts with a T.
I can't.
Yeah, there we go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
There's a greater God of war.
He deals with honorable combat.
Yeah, he's the God of honorablecombat and battle.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
But he's a lot more involved because if you were to
put on a spectacular battle, hewill actually imbue you with
power after sometimes.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So it's like that God , it makes sense for him to be
very hands on in your story.
I try to actually avoid thosecharacters because I mean it's
it's so much less fun to have topretend to be a God versus a
common person.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, when you're, when you're, that is a whole.
That's a thing that's actuallya topic to talk about because,
like the DM trying to trying toplay a God is so it's hard to
get into a mentality of a Godbecause you have to think about
it in a way of like this thingisn't human and that's not true.
It's a human, it's a human,it's not human, it's not even
(05:56):
human or even remotely close.
This is a wildly supernaturalentity that is just kind of like
human ish or, like I say, humanish, mortal ish, because it is
shaped through mortals, tovarying degrees depending on the
world, and kind of annoying toplay a god.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And that's why I kind of try to avoid it for my game
is it's very much.
I have not found an effectiveway to really kind of give off
the presence that you need tofor a god to the point where I
can actually, like convince myplayers hey, this is a great
like hire being and make itreally immersive situation.
It's a lot easier to be theking of the country as the DMM
(06:39):
like speak as a king versus agod where it's like it's kind of
challenging, especially withlike.
I love to say that we are supercreative and we can be as
creative as we want.
But even between the Abrahamicreligions and the outsourced
religions, when gods givepremonitions, they're usually
(07:01):
depicted the same ways, to thepoint where it's very, very
challenging to do much with them.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it's like it's.
It's.
I mean, it's the stereotype.
It's even a d&d stereotypewhere it's like a God sends a
dream, like it's cool.
It's objectively pretty cool.
It's kind of it's played out.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
It's done so much that it's kind of hard to do
Well yeah, and like as a as a DM, it's trying to create
something from scratch, for thatis just so challenging that I I
personally steer clear.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I've always I I do use gods.
I use gods.
Okay, I use gods Only when theplot calls for it.
A player does something thatwould get their attention, or a
player's Whole characterrevolves around one, or like has
the one that like incorporatesinto their story.
I kind of play with like aminimize the interaction of gods
(07:55):
as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
The minimal number of gods you can get away with is
the number you should use andand I think that's really true
when you're talking about, like,how many should be affecting
the party is as few as possible.
That being said, I have a worldwhere I'm doing completely
custom lore that's built aroundthe dragon gods Bahamutima.
I, oh, who came before them,and I'm completely rewriting my
(08:24):
own story and in that story Iuse Bahamutima a lot.
That being said, the partyinteracting with them is going
to be very Sparing because ofthe fact that in the world that
I'm writing, they govern overEverything.
They're not gonna have time tohandle and talk to four to six
(08:45):
mortals unless those mortals dosomething Absolutely insane or
incredible.
Or they're like actuallyactively helping them and they
just say thank you and then theyignore them for the rest of
existence, like yeah, it's gonnabe a quick hi, here's your
metal go away.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
To be fair, a gods metal is like hey, you're
immortal now.
Like that's.
Gods are like that's very much,it's the epic boons system.
We're like players hit level 20and then you, as the are
supposed to be like, hey, therewards now If you fit level 20.
Or like a god makes it so youdon't age.
Yeah, do that.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I.
I don't actually like thatsystem very much at all.
I.
Not good, it's not very fun toplay.
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I have given out epic boons.
What ever, I actually was ahome.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I rewrote epic boons completely past level 20.
For me, it's like, once you'repast level 20, we're just gonna
run the game and I'm gonna giveyou XP and we're gonna create
new fun things for you to beable to do.
We're not gonna it's.
It's not a great system for, inmy opinion, but I Really don't.
(10:07):
I Don't like the idea in D&Dspecifically, of every single
God Speaking from this higherastral plane and they're
speaking down.
I don't really like that.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I like the idea oh.
You want to talk?
Okay, sorry, yeah, I, you couldprobably see it through the
video, but, like I, okay,there's a God in.
Okay, I'm gonna bring up anentirely different system.
There's a God in Pathfinder,like the default Pathfinder
world I forget what it's called,where I Forget Like the dude's
(10:44):
name.
I can look him up if you want,but the whole deal with him is
he's a God of like, like lock orsomething.
Hold on, give me a, give me asecond.
Hold on, you got time?
Hayden Kylian is One of theascended those who achieved
Godhood by passing test to thestar stone.
(11:04):
He's also known as the luckydrunk, drunken hero or the
Accidental God.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, I like the term accidental God, that's a good
one of freedom, ale, wine andbravery his whole deal.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
If he was a dude who was like an adventurer and like
a really successful one, allthis stuff.
He was also a drunk and peoplereally didn't like it.
So they pushed him into thisgiant magic super maze that if
you complete it.
The myth of it is like if youcomplete the maze, you become a
God.
And he disappeared and everyonethought he was dead.
And then he shows up and he's aGod.
(11:42):
Okay, I like it and he'sliterally in the Lord.
Like I could read through hiswhole wiki page right now, but I
read through it once with oneof my buddies In the Lord.
He's like one of the few godswho actually gives just shit
yeah, personally about everysingle one of his worshipers,
because he's like listen, dude,I was a human like 200 years ago
.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And I.
I like those characters a lotbetter than the the upper the
upper plane will call them.
I don't like a oh, personally,I don't use him very often at
all, but like I love the well.
I was an adventurer, I hitlevel 20 and I slaughtered a
dragon and bathed in its bloodand then I stopped aging, that's
just.
I Don't.
(12:24):
I don't know what to say aboutthat.
It's so much more immersivethan the Well.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I always that's.
I love that because it's likenot even just gods, because
that's the thing is I.
God for me is a loose termbecause I actually God can mean
different entities in, at leastin my opinion and like in my
world, because there's likedivine gods and then there's
like elemental gods and thenthere's, you know, infernal gods
(12:51):
, abyssal gods, etc.
So like an arch, an archdevilis a infernal god, you know, etc
.
So all of them are like.
None of them are better orworse, they're just different.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Archdevil's to me and this is a hot take, I would say
archdevil's and phalords, itkind of depends.
But I would almost say thatthey're not deities and I don't
classify them as deities.
And the reason I don't do thatis for my own sanity.
I like having organizationpersonally and it's a lot easier
(13:25):
for me to have.
I know they're all supposed tobe evil, but I like the idea of
having a lawful, good archdevil.
Yeah, I think that's fun, andthen you have, like, almost
these different pantheons, andso to me I would say that you
have these upper deities thatcreated everything, and they
live on the Astral plane andGoverned from there Everybody
(13:48):
else is attached to a plane.
So if you're in the infernalplane, you're going to worship
the archdevil's as your gods.
Yeah, I think that's moreinteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, it's like the what gods you, what gods matter
to you, really depends who youare and where you live Like.
They're like the elementalplanes, have people living in
them, can like in even inforgotten realms in my, in my
homebrew world, maybe in yoursand like even in forgotten
realms, and like the Pathfinderstuff there's people living in
(14:20):
like the plane of fire, which isjust fire.
There's people living in it inlike cities and shit, and that's
really cool and those peopleobviously would worship like an
elemental god or like a god offire more, because, of course,
they do it's, it's really cool.
(14:40):
I will say one thing that youmentioned which I think is kind
of important for me to say,because it is a hot take I have
I don't give higher entitiesAlignments, okay.
I don't give gods, archdevil's,etc.
I don't give them alignments.
I never do, I don't like it.
Why not?
That's, it's okay.
(15:02):
I'll use like, I'll use gods asan example because they're
easier or kind of easier, andonce you have that, you can kind
of see how it'll extend offlike take, for example, a God of
peace.
Okay, let's just say a god ofpeace.
Okay, a god of peace.
One obviously wants peace.
(15:25):
Their domain is what they are,their power, and their domain is
the essence of what type ofentity they are.
They are, in my opinion,equally as likely to, like you
know, say like you know, forgivethis criminal, like for their
crimes, as they are to say thiscriminals, death will prevent,
(15:51):
like, will prevent a war.
So there is more peace fromtheir death than there is that
that they would get like a godsReaction or a higher entities
reaction in any situationdepends on who they are like.
If we're going forgotten realms, grats, grats, whatever the
(16:11):
demon, the demon lord of likelust and stuff, lust and
hedonism and etc.
In any situation we'll always dothe hedonistic option.
Yeah, and that is the thing islike the hedonistic option might
be, because if the hedonisticoption might be Chaotic, evil
and you know, probably amajority of the time is some
(16:33):
sort of evil, I, but there alsomight be an argument to be made
that like, sometimes who is tosay that Grats doesn't do good
things in excess?
Because why not Like?
That's the thing is Grats,hedonism isn't one thing, it's
like excess in general.
Essentially it's like livingand sensation and all that like
(16:58):
Making someone happy is asensation because like you can
feel that you can like feel like, oh, I made him happy.
It's like, it's an emotion.
All depends on, like the mood orlike a god of war this is
another example.
I'd use it with a friend theother day ago a god of war, it's
equally likely to one day wereto continue as they are, to one
(17:20):
day war to stop so that bothsides can recover and start
another war later.
Yes, like a god of war mightone day send, like you know, a
prophecy or a vision orsomething for their clerics
saying like the war's over, stopthe war.
Do everything you can to stopthe war, because both sides are
getting too devastated and thatmeans I won't get another war.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, I want more wars, and I Would say that's a
really good take.
I I do assign alignment, but Iassign alignment for a very
different reason.
So mine has to do with and, and, if you were to like, for
example, for for people who arelistening, if you check out our
patreon, we went through andmade an article completely on
(18:06):
alignment and Giving betterdescriptions than the books,
because the books descriptions Ithink everyone can agree on are
terrible.
We got a single sentence forevery single one.
So we went through and sat downas a group and made alignment
descriptions and advice onrunning the alignment.
And for me, alignments are basedon intentions, not actions.
(18:28):
So I will Apparently give allof my gods that I intend to use
an alignment and then I actuallysort my DM binder when I'm in
my God's portion.
I sort it by alignment and thenI highlight the portion of the
plane that they're on so that Ican keep a better organizational
method, because if I'm lookingfor a God to be Worshiped by
(18:52):
this group of clerics, that isevil.
I want to be able to say, okay,let's flip to the evil portion,
let's look at chaotic, let'slook at lawful and then I'm
gonna.
I'm gonna dig through and lookthrough everybody and see what's
gonna fit my narrative better.
That's how I like to keepmyself organized.
So that's why I do attach thatalignment, because inherently
some gods you can have a God ofwar who is good because they're
(19:14):
they are the the patron of Noblecombat, and you can have a God
that is the God of destructionand war.
That is chaotic evil, and so Iwould say that it's.
It helps me keep organized alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, that's, that's fair.
You can have gods that aredifferent aspects of the same
things.
It's like, and that's the thingis like the more if you have a
God who their entire portfoliois God of war, that in that is
all of war, that is their onething, that is they are
encompassing war, good, bad, etc.
(19:49):
But if you have a God who'slike the God of war and honor,
and then you that is likeObviously that God is going to
want like on or war, and andthen because that that's like
such a specific thing, then youcan have another God.
It's like war and cowardice orsomething like that, like the
more domains you give a God, themore specific their domain gets
(20:13):
it's, I would say because itboth gets more general and more
specific, I think more specificdomains have a greater place
within the entirety of D&D,because we need to go back and
build and it gives us thisaspect as a DM, to role play
when you have a specific God.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
If they are the God of honorable combat, they're
gonna want to see one-on-onefights.
They're gonna be more hands-on,they're gonna be more
controlling, especially ifthey're stuck on the mortal
realm or they're like a humanthat has been promoted or an elf
that is been promoted to a God.
They're going to want to go inand be like during these wars.
They're gonna want to be ageneral on the front line and
pretend to be a human and belike I want to see you for a
(20:59):
duel and it's like.
It's so much more fun and givesyou more storytelling pull a.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Pull a steel dragon and just a gun of honorable
combat role playing as somerandom soldier.
Yeah, I Love okay, totally uptopic, steel dragons cosplaying
as normal people.
Amazing the idea of gods doingthat, I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Oh yeah, a God of agriculture who's just or God or
goddess of agriculture who'sjust Odes a farm somewhere and
then all of a sudden, aftertheir appointed Godhood, the
local land becomes incrediblyProsperous for no reason and
they're just like chilling there, hiding their existence.
(21:42):
I think that is so funny andadds a mystery session, a
mystery part where they're gonnabe like man.
This area has really great cropgrowth, but it hasn't rained in
four years.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I wonder why that is did someone make it with a devil
and then meanwhile old likeLike old lady, just send on the
sidelines, just sit there,they're going.
None of them know that.
I'm just the goddess ofagriculture.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And it works a lot better.
I think that that works a lotbetter for a, for a DM
perspective.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah um, when you're doing, when you're doing gods,
you kind of have to pick a lane,not a crook, not like a total
lane, like for not, it doesn'thave to be all encompassing, but
for every single God you kindof have to pick are they more
human or are they more inhuman?
Because he got a pick one?
Because you can't try, tryingto do both, it's possible, it's
(22:35):
not easy and you know you can.
You kind of have to pick one,be like their main vibe, and
then you can have moments whereit shows other things, like, for
example, my home world.
I like the idea of like, likeOriginal gods and then like
later gods that popped up so Iseparate it into primordial and
(23:00):
primordial are like gods thatJust existed, like they are the
gods from the creation myth.
They are the gods, they're likethe AO, they are the, the IO or
whatever.
The big dragon God is that inyour world.
They are those, they are thosepeople and those ones I make
(23:24):
Auditally inhuman, like theymight.
They might, if there's somereason, one of them would pay
attention to you, you know,manifests like an avatar and
speak to you, but the whole timethey do.
I do my very best to give anundertone vibe of this is a very
strange Thing talking to you.
(23:44):
Yeah, this is something thatyou reasonably shouldn't be
talking to, because if you knewin any small portion Anything
about the true nature of thisbeing, you would be immediately
insane.
Yeah, I like eldritch horrorvibes and I do that, but then
(24:06):
for like smaller gods, like likesmaller gods, I make them
pretty human, like cuz I Makethem.
Actually, I won't say that Imake them as human as their
domain is Okay, because that isthat is something that is also
should be said is like how humana god is really should depend
on their like, what they are Godof, like a God of love deeply
(24:32):
like, deeply mortal, like innature.
I Would?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I would disagree.
Actually, I would say Because,for me, unless you're like the
God of some Incredibly inhumanthing like if you're the God of,
if you're a God of nature andspecifically of a specific area,
you're gonna be incrediblyhuman.
You can be incredibly human andand like even even things that
(24:56):
are very like.
You can become the God offishing by being a fisherman
your whole life and Becoming alike.
There are ways to do it where Iwould say, the domain, unless
you're like the God of suffering.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
What about?
Here's something I see.
What about God, people, godswho are like the God of storms,
like the God of a naturalphenomenon that is ancient and
deeply like Disconnected?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
so for me there's.
If I was to be writing a, ahere, I'm gonna use the.
I'm gonna use a differentexample than storm Mm-hmm, I'm
gonna use time, okay, this timeis a very important one.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I just finished making the God of time for my
homebrew world.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So in my, in my homebrews, I usually run
multiple gods of time, andwhat's important to me about it
is when I'm writing a God oftime it depends on how I'm using
them, which route I take eithera they have always been, and
they're a part of this Kind ofcouncil that keeps everything.
Think have you seen the showLoki?
(26:03):
Think you kind of like the thetime syndicate, whatever they
call it?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
TV a.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I think, yeah, I'm very authority yeah or the or
the other option is a level 20Chrono man, sir Wizard, who is
enlightened and becomes a God.
That character is gonna beincredibly human, even though
they control literally natureitself, because they were human
(26:31):
and they.
You don't fully get warped whenyou become a God unless you've
existed for Millennials andreally.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I Play with that.
Okay, this is a fun thing.
One of my okay, my home game isstill going on, but we've
reached the point in thecampaign we can kind of see the
end coming, and so it's kind ofgone to a point where, like all
the players have already writtenfor me, they're like character
epilogues.
None of those really matter.
(27:00):
It's over one which is one ofthe characters, were Coney,
where her whole deal is thatafter she, after the campaign
dropped up, they defeat the bigbad evil guy, etc.
They, she goes off and startslike an organization whose whole
deal is like help, like kind ofhelping people, kind of it's
more like, you know, likeBringing her idea of justice.
(27:23):
She essentially becomes likethe founder of like a night
order.
Okay, and part of what I'vediscussed with her is the
epilogue is that after hercharacter dies, it's sort of
like those ideas carry on andeventually, posthumously, her
character ascends to Godhoodbecause those ideas take root as
(27:44):
a religious ideology.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Okay, I, I don't mind it.
I, I don't mind that, take Ijust, for me it's.
It's rewarding when you see acharacter fully ascend to God as
an epilogue, especially if youhit level 20, and I would say,
especially for casters, that'svery important.
(28:08):
I think that's very crucial.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I don't limit it to just casters.
But yeah, she, she is going, sheis a god.
I have the campaign that I'mrunning.
Come in, that I'm running rightnow.
That's not my home one.
It takes place in the future ofthat world where she it's it
past the point where she hasbecome a god.
Mm-hmm, she has been a god inlore for maybe 20 years.
(28:31):
Back, that thing.
That's.
The thing is like if someonewere to speak to her.
It's literally just hercharacter With god powers,
because it has been 20 years.
She is just her with some godpowers, and so it's like her
character is a barbarian,barbarian, was 16 intelligence
(28:55):
because she rolled really highon stats, but her character is
just a barbarian who eventuallybecomes a god because, like
religious ideology and all thatstuff, the it's like if someone
were to talk to her, she wouldbe like very little social
graces and it would just be likelook, just do what I tell you.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, and I think for me, with this whole ideology
behind it, I would say it's veryimportant to know what kind of
god you're talking to.
Are you talking to somethingthat is ancient or are you
talking to something that isrelatively young?
Yeah, and when you're creatinggods, I like it when characters
(29:36):
become gods at the epilogue.
I tend to avoid doing it withholy casters, because they're
worshiping something else.
If you are worshiping, forexample, a warlock, worshiping a
patron, you're not going toascend to god.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
No, you're not.
But, you might have to saywhatever that entity makes you.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, you might become an eldritch whore for the
rest of existence, but you'renot going to become this
beautiful eternal being.
That's just out of the cardsfor you.
But if you're a sorcerer thathits level 20 and has wish,
you're probably going to end upas a deity of some kind.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Wish can't maybe a hot take?
Wish can't make someone a deity.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, it can't, but like it can grant you a presence
with a deity you can wish tospeak to, a god you can wish to
talk to a deity and if you dothat, the chance that they book,
especially a greater deity.
If you've been following them,there's a chance they might give
you lesser godhood and then Ithink it would almost be really
funny that you become the godsassistant for eternity.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's something that's fun to mention, because I
love the idea of gods grantingOkay, so Rikoni she back to her.
She becomes the goddess ofrecompense and reconciliation.
So essentially it's like likelike recompense and
(31:04):
reconciliation, it's likeforgiveness kind of, and you
know getting what you deserve.
So the joke is that she's a godof karma.
She is in the like world lore,a lesser deity who serves under
(31:25):
the god of the god of law andorder or the god of law, and so
it's like a weird thing wherelike gods can have lesser gods
that are like sub parts of thereand they are like the boss of
that god.
Okay, it's when I'm 40 yearsbadly.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Okay, so I have a question for you, and this has
to do with how I make gods.
I make gods on a charactersheet because I find that
incredibly enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
But what I do and this is this is similar to how I
do the big bats for mycampaigns.
Big bats I do for my campaignsI do a little differently than I
do gods.
So when I do a big bat for mycampaign, I will take three to
four d12s and roll rather thand6s, because it gives me the
chance to have much higher statsand much lower stats.
(32:23):
But with a god I'll roll like66s and I'll drop the lowest one
or two.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, I just I don't stat deities, okay, or their
entities at all.
I just don't if you, if you, ifyou ever play in a game,
because we do know each other,if you ever play in a game with
me and there is any sort of likearchdevil, feylord or etc.
(32:53):
Just a tip.
I've probably not stat itbecause the answer to can you
fight it is probably no.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
See, for me, the answer is always yes.
Can you fight it?
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
The answer actually yeah, you're right?
The answer is the answer to canyou fight?
It is yes.
The answer to will you win isno.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
For me it's like can I fight it?
Yes, awesome.
So this character, I behind theDM screen, they're a paladin.
They smite you for 49 damage.
What the fuck is that thing?
That's all I did to like to runit, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
It's like I I once had a player smack the God of
Chaos in my home world in one ofthe campaigns that I ran.
That was like kind of likehigher scale yeah, and the God
of Chaos like had an avatar andthey just slap across the face
and the thing is I had to make aquick moment decision.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
This is a deity.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Does that deity care?
Because they had a negativestrength modifier so it would do
one damage maximum.
But it's an avatar, so it'simmune to non-magic damage and
it's an, and it was, it was.
I forget what class they were,but they weren't a monk, so a
slap is not magical, so itdidn't do anything and so I just
(34:20):
had it.
I just had the God of Chaos belike why, why, what did you do?
They just laughed and were likethat's adorable.
I don't know why you're doingthat, though it's.
It's kind of I don't, I don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
So I lost it.
There's a reason that I fullyfill out a character sheet for
deities and that reason is if aplayer decides they want to lie
to a God, they know they do.
But it depends on what kind ofdeity it is.
That's awesome.
If it's AO, I'm just going tobe like no, ao is the creator of
(35:01):
all things, I don't bother tostat him.
But if it's like, for example,the guy from the Forgotten
Realms, I'm going to stat himout.
And I like to do it as acharacter sheet because for me
it gives me so many moremodifiers that I can actually
physically look at and pull upquick time and not have to do
mental math.
That it's a lot easier for me.
And if you're going to try tolie to a God, I think me ruling
(35:23):
66s and dropping the lowest onetoo is a pretty good way to bump
those stats quite a bit whereit's going to be pretty hard to
lie to them.
And obviously it depends on age.
But I just add de-6s for agerelative to what I think is
acceptable versus my finalbosses where I'll literally roll
40, 12s and make it like acharacter, because I personally
(35:48):
have mostly played casters in myD&D career.
I've played a cleric.
I've played way too manywizards, way too many sorcerers
and a couple warlocks.
I'm going to make that a magiccaster like a lich.
I'm going to roll 3d12s and youbest believe if I roll 3d12s,
(36:08):
that's all going in my magicstaff and you're not going to
get me.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Intelligence of 36 is insane.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, that's like the final bosses usually for me.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
That is.
I mean to be fair, that's fair.
A BBG should be kind ofridiculous Well, kind of
depending on the campaign.
But the yeah, I don't stat godsjust because I've had players
(36:41):
before.
I have had player horrorstories before, and one of the
main reasons I don't stat godsis because I've had players who
have mid maxed before and theydeal 300 damage in a turn and I
can kill a god and I was like ifI stat a god, someone's going
to do some bullshit.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
See, for me I encourage it because you best
hit it.
It's that mentality of like, ifyou're going to take a swing,
it better be a good one, becauseif it's not a good one, you're
done.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
To be fair, I also run what is a fairly dark world.
Yeah, that's fair, becauseeverything's kind of shitty and
everyone's kind of dead.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, so yeah, I just I like using them for combat.
I think gods are.
I think even having an evil godis like the final big bad for a
campaign can be a lot of fun.
And I'm not going to lie to you.
For me, the final fighteveryone is so freaked out about
(37:52):
having these gorgeous AppleOaks for the characters I don't
mind.
Tpking is my last thing.
If you go to kill this big bad,god, who's corrupting the world
, and he slaughters the wholeparty and the world falls into
ruin, that's just as satisfyingof an end to me as a happy one,
(38:12):
and that's just a personalpreference, I would say, and
this kind of feels like it'sgetting on like plot beats which
might be a topic for another.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, we're going to go through the plot later but,
like I say, it depends on theplayers whether or not that is a
satisfying ending because I, asa DM and satisfied with
whatever happens.
If my player is TPK, great, I'mhappy, whatever we move on.
I have a million other campaignideas but like it's up to that,
(38:43):
like if the player doesn't wanttheir character to die, I'll
find a way to bring thecharacter back If a player, as
long as it's remotely possible,if a player or like they're not
asking me anything absurd if aplayer like if we got to the
final fight of the campaign andthey all died, and then, like
(39:04):
you know, they like they alldied and all the care, all the
players were like well, we triedand they were all cool with it,
I would be like cool, and thenwe would start a new campaign,
move on.
I'd probably you know Iwouldn't retcon the whole
campaign, but I'd probably likeretcon the ending or something.
(39:25):
If I wanted to run in the sameworld again.
Or I'd just say new timeline.
None of it ever happened, youknow whatever, but that's if I
wanted to run in the same world.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
I am I am diabolical.
I'm very diabolical because mylast campaign where I actually
had the party get TPK.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Okay, on purpose or did it just happen?
Speaker 1 (39:48):
At the end they just couldn't beat the final boss.
Okay, we resurrected and westarted playing.
The final boss resurrected thembecause he was a God and they
started playing from the evilside.
That's fun which was actually alot of fun, and my characters
loved it because all of thesecharacters they had grown bonds
with in the cities and stuffwe're now fighting against them.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
See, that's fun.
That's the kind of thing oflike I would talk about players
and that might be an idea Iwould give them is like this is
a lich.
There's like a 60% chance he'sgoing to bring it all back to
life.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, let's just go back to war Both.
This time we're going to warwith the mortals, and then you
got a nice evil campaign.
That feels very satisfying.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
And then here's the thing maybe all of them then
lose against the other good guys, and then the world ends up
like being like saved in the end.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, who knows, or they break the magic and the
party gets to turn on the lichwhen he thinks they're on their
side.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, like that's the kind of thing like you kind of
If they died and all the playerswere like, cool, let's move on,
I would just end their move on.
But like, if they want to keepgoing with these characters and
stuff, we'll find a way, we'llfind it can be a lot of fun,
especially with, especially whenyou have like gods and shit,
like, okay, if you ever speak toany of my players, tell them
(41:13):
none of this.
Okay, and if any of my playersthat are my current campaign,
the colony one, or listen everlisten to this, click off, jump
forward, like to jump forwardlike three minutes.
Um, so, one of the players ithasn't happened yet, but they
have discussed with me pre, likepre the game that they want
(41:37):
their character to have areligious awakening.
Okay, what so they're.
They want their character totake levels and cleric after
being exposed to a certainreligion that currently Her,
they and I are building together.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So there I'm letting them partake in the whole
building the god like they're.
They're coming up, they'rehelping build their own god,
they're helping build their ownreligion, etc.
And because the pantheon'sunfinished, so I'm pretty cool
with that, with that.
So If, say, like got to thevery final battle and, like you
(42:19):
know, a whole party dies, ifthat character were to Like be,
if that character might be theway like if everyone wanted to
keep going, I like, like rat,like fixed that to happen.
Yeah, because they are, theyare going to at least.
(42:42):
So I like to discuss likelong-term ideas with players
really early, um, and what Idiscussed with them is like
becoming like what's interestingabout like a saint of this
religion, okay, and so thatwould be like a really
interesting like plot point islike that's part of their saint
myth, is like they died and thenCrawled back from hell or
(43:06):
something like that, like Likethe pit, because their god is
going to be a brutal.
Yeah, that is going to be, theirgod is going to be a god.
That is like rather brutal andunforgiving.
So it would be the kind ofthing of like all the players
die and then in the likeafterlife that that player like
(43:26):
begs their god for a chance andI we have like a whole, like
couple sessions where the godslike, all right, you want me to
bring you back to life, I willprove you're worth it.
And Then we have whole couplesessions were literally they're
just like fighting and likedoing trials or some shit to
prove to this God that theydeserve to come back to life.
(43:47):
And then if they complete itand honestly I would make it so
that Not the whole party couldcomplete it, like if, if there's
seven people in that game I'mrunning a campaign, seven people
if five of them pass the trialsand two don't, to Sorry.
The god is not gonna give you asecond chance, but they could be
(44:09):
resurrected somewhere else, ifthe lord gets one of the party
members can do it.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah, you're.
As long as look, as long assomeone gets back from the dead,
as long as you got 500 goldpieces in your pocket, anything
is possible.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I swear and then like they all wake up and it's been
like two seconds since they died, like that sort of a thing I I
Really useful, but they're alsoreally annoying sometimes, which
is a really weird dichotomy.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, I think it's very important to plan them and
execute properly, withoutoveruse, don't over, don't
overuse them.
And I, personally, I personallydon't like Some of forgotten
realms.
I really just like the conceptthat, if enough people worship
(45:00):
one thing, it becomes a godwhere, if you step on this
specific frog creature I don'tremember what it is, yep and it
creates a god of your foot.
I don't like that.
I don't like it at all.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Kua Toa that's the whole thing is in forgotten
realms.
The belief of every creaturehas power and can create deities
.
Kua Toa have more power Per KuaToa than per average mortal.
So it takes far less Kua Toa tomake a god than it does other
(45:32):
worlds.
Yep which is interesting becauseit can lead to some really
weird things, because Kua Toaare also extremely religious and
Dumb and they want they want agod to worship.
They, if you've played Balder,gets Baldur's Gate 3.
There is a Kua Toa.
This is a spoiler.
Anyone who hasn't playedBaldur's Gate 3, stop listening.
(45:53):
Jump forward like five minutesthe, not five minutes like two,
but the.
There's a Kua Toa town in thatgame.
Have you found it?
I haven't played Baldur's Gateat all.
Okay, this is do you want me to?
Speaker 1 (46:09):
I don't mind.
I don't intend to play the game, oh, okay.
I know not that I don't enjoythe game.
It's.
I want to run D&D and I don'thave time to run the campaigns.
I want to run and play Baldur'sGate.
I will get sucked in, so I'mI'm gonna keep my head forward
on D&D Until the time where Ihave more free time, and then
(46:30):
I'll do it.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, that's fair, the.
So there's a Kua Toa town inthere where they are worshiping,
but a Bohol or something likethat.
It's something positive, weird,but it's supposed to be like a
ripoff of ball.
Who is the forgotten realms?
God of murder, murder andstrife?
I think, yeah, that soundsright to me.
(46:54):
And so this god, who's like aWhatever with their worshiping,
who's just like this weird, likelittle blood creature, turns
out to just be a red cap, whichis a fey who convinced a bunch
of Kua Toa they were a god.
And so this, this red capbecause that's the thing is Kua
(47:14):
Toa make gods, don't make likereal.
Yeah, because their gods Don'tbecome that's the difference is
like mortals.
It takes a lot more of them tomake a god, and over a long
period of time, but they makelike a real.
Quote unquote god Kua Toa.
If they stop believing, they'regone, fizzles into nothing.
(47:37):
They, they need the Kua Toa tokeep believing or else they
literally just disappear.
Yeah, unless they weresomething before, unless they
were something alive before, andthen they just go back to what
they were.
And so you, playing the game,can make a check to realize this
is just a fey who is deceivinga bunch of Kua Toa and then, if
(47:59):
you do that, you can just Murderit.
It is much tougher than theaverage red cap, though, because
it has, because it has a powerbuff from a from a village of
Kua Toa, and so it's a reallycool thing where, like, you get
(48:22):
to see as some small aspect oflike how gods get made and
forgotten.
Else and in a lot of other, alot of other worlds use the same
system of like belief makes agod.
I even use it Because that'skind of you know, it's easy,
it's also makes sense.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
I use a modified version, and the reason that I
use a modified version Isbecause I don't like this
concept that you poof into beingAll of a sudden when you have a
hundred people believing in you.
You have to be a living thingbeforehand.
You have to be a living thingbeforehand.
That is my rule with young gods.
(49:00):
Is I?
You had to have had a lifebefore.
You may not remember that life,but you had a life, because
then all of the legendary heroesin your world, there's a reason
to be a legendary hero.
You could die and go to thequote unquote heaven, or you
could become an immortal god,like there is then.
That gives more power for theplayers, for your NPCs to strive
(49:25):
for.
It gives them purpose, andthat's my belief.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, I it's.
That's very true because, like,if players know that becoming a
god is a possible epilogue, alot of players will be like, oh,
that sounds difficult, there'sthey.
But like, there's theoccasional player who hears that
and goes how?
And you're like today's the day, and then there's two versions
(49:52):
of that player.
There's the power gamer who'shoping you'll let them become a
god in game and then use thosepowers in game which no, never,
uh.
Or there's like the story, likethe role player, story player
who wants to literally build acharacter with the whole purpose
of that character Is toeventually end up a god in, like
(50:15):
the world war, which is raconiUm.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
I actually believe it or not, that's the cleric that
I played was their entire goalwas to become a god and a lawful
good god of peace andtranquility, and they were doing
it through raising a zombiearmy to stomp out all wars.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
That's Not a lawful good yeah don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Don't worry about it.
It was a interesting characterto play.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
That is a person with a very demented sense of good.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yes, it was, and that was the whole point was.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
That person is going to end up being something that
is very much not a god.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
That is good um their goal was to create world peace
and become a god of peacethrough murder, yeah, basically
through, through using corpsesto stop all war without having
death.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
I mean it was an interesting character, it was a
fun one to play.
Yeah, that is.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I Don't know what to say about that.
Yeah, interesting character Ihave.
Here's the thing you Talkingabout the characters you've
played makes me a little bitangry, because I have ever, only
ever played two characters.
Because, I've only ever playedin place.
I am a forever DM and I stuckas that.
We fair.
(51:45):
I love D, I love DMing.
I have control issues, but theBoth times I've been a player,
might the DM has at some pointtold me Stop telling players
rules when they ask what therule is before I can tell them
the rule I?
I I can't really turn it off.
(52:07):
I'm one of those people who Ican't really turn it off, so I'm
better being a deal.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
The for me.
I've played both.
I I am mostly a DM.
I've played more.
I've DMed more games than I'veplayed Mm-hmm, but the games
I've played because I have DMedso much.
If I'm gonna play a game, I'mnot gonna do your normal Joe
Schmoe, I'm gonna mess with yourhead, I'm gonna play that
(52:32):
character that you're sittingthere and you're like.
For that one, my whole goal wasto make the rest of the party
question.
Is this really good?
Speaker 2 (52:39):
anymore.
Yeah, I played, and actuallythis does connect to the God
topic.
Yeah, I play.
The both characters I've everplayed have both been very
religious.
Really, the first characterever played was a paladin.
He was a paladin of helm in theforgotten realms.
Actually, which is helm is myfavorite God In the forgotten
(53:01):
realms Hell.
To be fair, it's kind of easyfor home to be the favorite God
because most forgotten realmgods are bad people.
Looks at misstra activelytelling someone to commit
suicide in Baldur's Gate 3.
The yeah, misstra's are bad andDeserves to be smited by helm.
(53:23):
Hot take, but was that a coughor you telling me to like?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
that was me coughing, that was.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
That was like a.
No, you're okay, cool, the Allright.
So that game actually hadinteresting thing because I had
to leave that campaign.
Actually, that campaign startedto fall apart because of some
interpersonal issues, but the DMtold me at one point what his
plans for the character was.
Because the whole thing was itwas a, an ASMR paladin, and
(53:58):
named Samuel Mundus, whichliterally translates to like
Samuel, normal.
Like Mundus is like Latin orsomething for like normal or
mundane, and Apparently I didn'tknow this but in like forgotten
.
This is something that you willactually find interesting
because it connects back to likeyou're talking about, like a, a
(54:19):
document, like the domain of aGod shapes who they are and also
, like God should be human.
So I Didn't know this.
Apparently in some Forgottenones lore or something, helm was
in at one point in love withthe goddess of practicality,
like goddess of like pragmatismor something.
And this is what this is what Iwas told.
(54:41):
This might have been the loremy DM made up and the so ASMR,
all are descended from somecelestial and the running.
What he told me is thateventually, if that campaign I
kept going on, it would havecome out that the reason because
there was a running joke,because Samuel always rolled
(55:03):
super high.
Like always I rolled like belowa 10, like twice in, like a
campaign.
We had like 30 sessions, um,but the it became a running joke
.
At one point.
The DM gave me his dice andsaid roll these.
And I rolled two natural 20s ina row and he just went.
(55:24):
It's just, it's just luck.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
But you were bestowed by the gods.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, that became the running joke.
Is that I'm the helm?
Is that Samuel was Helm'sfavorite and the DM actually
made it Like more yeah, thatSamuel, just helm loves him.
I love that and the reason thathe told me he was gonna end up
coming out was because helm wasin love with this like goddess
who died, mm-hmm, and Samuel washis, like ASMR, celestial, like
(55:57):
ancestry.
Was that goddess and he was oneof.
He was one of her only livingdescendants with like a spark of
celestial power and he was alsoa.
He was also Entirely by cosmicchance or some twist of the
fates or AO or some bullshit aPaladin of hell.
(56:17):
So helm not only had power overhim as a pellet, as a paladin
and Permission as a god toprotect him as his paladin, but
also a reason to like him thatmuch because he was one of the
last descendants of helm's dead,like girlfriend, essentially
yeah.
(56:37):
I like that, which is like it'skind of inhuman but it's also
kind of very human and it's ILikeed it.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
I like it too.
It's an interesting way to usea god.
Well, I will say that is whereI'm gonna cut it, because of the
fact that we basically startedgoing off on tangents, because
we've covered most of the thingsthat we wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
Um, so thank you everyone who listened.
Um, if you're interested, checkout any of the links below for
more content.
And other than that, I hope youall have a great day.
Yeah, hi everyone, bob.
Yeah, so this is going to be episode three.
We're going to be talking aboutgods and the different
pantheons and how you canincorporate them into your game.
Today, we're not really goingto talk about building the
pantheon.
I think that's going to be afocus for another time, because
I think we could have at least aone to two hour conversation
about it, definitely.
(00:21):
But I'm your host, white, andthis is going to be our first
time having a guest star.
If you'd like to introduceyourself, Hi, I'm Cameron
Perkins.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Over the course of, I've played D&D for a little
over nine years since I was 13.
Yeah, actually before I was 13.
I started shortly before Iturned 13 and I just turned 21.
So a little over nine years, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense,
yeah that's how time works.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I think so A little over nine years now, and I have
run in that time, I'd saysomewhere between 15 and 20
games.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, that's not bad.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
My longest running one is the first game I ever
actually ran which is stillrunning.
Now we're approaching nineyears on one on running game.
Oh, it's level 13.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh my God, how much XP have you been giving them?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Don't do XP I do Okay .
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So you're not like torturing them and making them
just sit there and talk to eachother for seven hours.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
No, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
At least I'm not that player, I'm not the DM.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I actually like the XP system a lot, so that's what
I usually go with.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It's not bad.
It needs a rebalance.
That's a topic for anotherepisode.
Very true.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So we'll start off our kind of discussion today
with a very fundamental idea ofwhen you're talking about the
Pantheon, and that comes down towhether you want to actually
have your gods involved in theplot or whether you're kind of
having them just as neutralobservers, and I think both are
pretty valid and I would say theonly way to really run a game
(02:12):
is to kind of have a little bitof both.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I would say the level you're kind of you're right and
I would say that it's kind ofhard to argue with that opinion.
I would add, on the level ofinvolvement they have kind of
depends on the exact story andcampaign you're running.
Because, for example, right nowI'm running a campaign which is
(02:37):
like sort of like a survivalbased sort of campaign, survival
and you know, like for itforaging and like colony
building, actually like citybuilding.
They're literally I have made asystem for them to like build a
city and they, gods, aren'treally going to be that involved
(02:58):
in that, obviously.
But if you're running acampaign where it's like the
world's at danger because someexistential threat is happening,
they're going to be a lot moreso really.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So I agree with your statement, but I think it kind
of also depends on theindividual God we're talking
about.
That's also true Because Ithink, I think a big part of it
is going to be like your gods,like I really like how forgotten
realms doesn't like a thecreator of the universe.
He could give a flying hellless what happens.
Yeah, he does not care, he justis sitting back watching for
(03:36):
entertainment purposes.
The only time.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
The only time AO cares is when something happens
that screws with the what hewants, which is honestly valid.
But also he's kind of selfishbecause he at one point he
decided hey, gods, all of you,you're not gods anymore.
Set them down to the mortalplane.
I think it's the times oftrouble or whatever, which I
(04:01):
real quick I love the fact Inthat in that, like times of
trouble thing, the one God hedidn't strip of his power was
Helm, who was like the God of,like guardians and defenders,
and the reason is because he puthim at the door of heaven and
said let nobody in, yeah, andthen Mr tried to get in and he
(04:22):
murders.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, and then there's.
Then there's your characterslike um well, be a good one like
Tiren.
Tiren's pretty involved.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Tiren likes to like be very hands on because he's
trying to get a lot of likestrength and battle and stuff.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Right.
So like Helm, you people likeno, he's war and evil, if I
remember correctly.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Is he Hold on?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Who's?
Who's the one that's evil?
I can't remember Evil and war.
I can't remember.
I thought it starts with a T.
I can't.
Yeah, there we go, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
There's a greater God of war.
He deals with honorable combat.
Yeah, he's the God of honorablecombat and battle.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
But he's a lot more involved because if you were to
put on a spectacular battle, hewill actually imbue you with
power after sometimes.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So it's like that God , it makes sense for him to be
very hands on in your story.
I try to actually avoid thosecharacters because I mean it's
it's so much less fun to have topretend to be a God versus a
common person.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, when you're, when you're, that is a whole.
That's a thing that's actuallya topic to talk about because,
like the DM trying to trying toplay a God is so it's hard to
get into a mentality of a Godbecause you have to think about
it in a way of like this thingisn't human and that's not true.
It's a human, it's a human,it's not human, it's not even
(05:56):
human or even remotely close.
This is a wildly supernaturalentity that is just kind of like
human ish or, like I say, humanish, mortal ish, because it is
shaped through mortals, tovarying degrees depending on the
world, and kind of annoying toplay a god.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And that's why I kind of try to avoid it for my game
is it's very much.
I have not found an effectiveway to really kind of give off
the presence that you need tofor a god to the point where I
can actually, like convince myplayers hey, this is a great
like hire being and make itreally immersive situation.
It's a lot easier to be theking of the country as the DMM
(06:39):
like speak as a king versus agod where it's like it's kind of
challenging, especially withlike.
I love to say that we are supercreative and we can be as
creative as we want.
But even between the Abrahamicreligions and the outsourced
religions, when gods givepremonitions, they're usually
(07:01):
depicted the same ways, to thepoint where it's very, very
challenging to do much with them.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it's like it's.
It's.
I mean, it's the stereotype.
It's even a d&d stereotypewhere it's like a God sends a
dream, like it's cool.
It's objectively pretty cool.
It's kind of it's played out.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
It's done so much that it's kind of hard to do
Well yeah, and like as a as a DM, it's trying to create
something from scratch, for thatis just so challenging that I I
personally steer clear.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I've always I I do use gods.
I use gods.
Okay, I use gods Only when theplot calls for it.
A player does something thatwould get their attention, or a
player's Whole characterrevolves around one, or like has
the one that like incorporatesinto their story.
I kind of play with like aminimize the interaction of gods
(07:55):
as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
The minimal number of gods you can get away with is
the number you should use andand I think that's really true
when you're talking about, like,how many should be affecting
the party is as few as possible.
That being said, I have a worldwhere I'm doing completely
custom lore that's built aroundthe dragon gods Bahamutima.
I, oh, who came before them,and I'm completely rewriting my
(08:24):
own story and in that story Iuse Bahamutima a lot.
That being said, the partyinteracting with them is going
to be very Sparing because ofthe fact that in the world that
I'm writing, they govern overEverything.
They're not gonna have time tohandle and talk to four to six
(08:45):
mortals unless those mortals dosomething Absolutely insane or
incredible.
Or they're like actuallyactively helping them and they
just say thank you and then theyignore them for the rest of
existence, like yeah, it's gonnabe a quick hi, here's your
metal go away.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
To be fair, a gods metal is like hey, you're
immortal now.
Like that's.
Gods are like that's very much,it's the epic boons system.
We're like players hit level 20and then you, as the are
supposed to be like, hey, therewards now If you fit level 20.
Or like a god makes it so youdon't age.
Yeah, do that.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I.
I don't actually like thatsystem very much at all.
I.
Not good, it's not very fun toplay.
I'm not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I have given out epic boons.
What ever, I actually was ahome.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I rewrote epic boons completely past level 20.
For me, it's like, once you'repast level 20, we're just gonna
run the game and I'm gonna giveyou XP and we're gonna create
new fun things for you to beable to do.
We're not gonna it's.
It's not a great system for, inmy opinion, but I Really don't.
(10:07):
I Don't like the idea in D&Dspecifically, of every single
God Speaking from this higherastral plane and they're
speaking down.
I don't really like that.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I like the idea oh.
You want to talk?
Okay, sorry, yeah, I, you couldprobably see it through the
video, but, like I, okay,there's a God in.
Okay, I'm gonna bring up anentirely different system.
There's a God in Pathfinder,like the default Pathfinder
world I forget what it's called,where I Forget Like the dude's
(10:44):
name.
I can look him up if you want,but the whole deal with him is
he's a God of like, like lock orsomething.
Hold on, give me a, give me asecond.
Hold on, you got time?
Hayden Kylian is One of theascended those who achieved
Godhood by passing test to thestar stone.
(11:04):
He's also known as the luckydrunk, drunken hero or the
Accidental God.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Okay, I like the term accidental God, that's a good
one of freedom, ale, wine andbravery his whole deal.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
If he was a dude who was like an adventurer and like
a really successful one, allthis stuff.
He was also a drunk and peoplereally didn't like it.
So they pushed him into thisgiant magic super maze that if
you complete it.
The myth of it is like if youcomplete the maze, you become a
God.
And he disappeared and everyonethought he was dead.
And then he shows up and he's aGod.
(11:42):
Okay, I like it and he'sliterally in the Lord.
Like I could read through hiswhole wiki page right now, but I
read through it once with oneof my buddies In the Lord.
He's like one of the few godswho actually gives just shit
yeah, personally about everysingle one of his worshipers,
because he's like listen, dude,I was a human like 200 years ago
.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And I.
I like those characters a lotbetter than the the upper the
upper plane will call them.
I don't like a oh, personally,I don't use him very often at
all, but like I love the well.
I was an adventurer, I hitlevel 20 and I slaughtered a
dragon and bathed in its bloodand then I stopped aging, that's
just.
I Don't.
(12:24):
I don't know what to say aboutthat.
It's so much more immersivethan the Well.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I always that's.
I love that because it's likenot even just gods, because
that's the thing is I.
God for me is a loose termbecause I actually God can mean
different entities in, at leastin my opinion and like in my
world, because there's likedivine gods and then there's
like elemental gods and thenthere's, you know, infernal gods
(12:51):
, abyssal gods, etc.
So like an arch, an archdevilis a infernal god, you know, etc
.
So all of them are like.
None of them are better orworse, they're just different.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Archdevil's to me and this is a hot take, I would say
archdevil's and phalords, itkind of depends.
But I would almost say thatthey're not deities and I don't
classify them as deities.
And the reason I don't do thatis for my own sanity.
I like having organizationpersonally and it's a lot easier
(13:25):
for me to have.
I know they're all supposed tobe evil, but I like the idea of
having a lawful, good archdevil.
Yeah, I think that's fun, andthen you have, like, almost
these different pantheons, andso to me I would say that you
have these upper deities thatcreated everything, and they
live on the Astral plane andGoverned from there Everybody
(13:48):
else is attached to a plane.
So if you're in the infernalplane, you're going to worship
the archdevil's as your gods.
Yeah, I think that's moreinteresting.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, it's like the what gods you, what gods matter
to you, really depends who youare and where you live Like.
They're like the elementalplanes, have people living in
them, can like in even inforgotten realms in my, in my
homebrew world, maybe in yoursand like even in forgotten
realms, and like the Pathfinderstuff there's people living in
(14:20):
like the plane of fire, which isjust fire.
There's people living in it inlike cities and shit, and that's
really cool and those peopleobviously would worship like an
elemental god or like a god offire more, because, of course,
they do it's, it's really cool.
(14:40):
I will say one thing that youmentioned which I think is kind
of important for me to say,because it is a hot take I have
I don't give higher entitiesAlignments, okay.
I don't give gods, archdevil's,etc.
I don't give them alignments.
I never do, I don't like it.
Why not?
That's, it's okay.
(15:02):
I'll use like, I'll use gods asan example because they're
easier or kind of easier, andonce you have that, you can kind
of see how it'll extend offlike take, for example, a God of
peace.
Okay, let's just say a god ofpeace.
Okay, a god of peace.
One obviously wants peace.
(15:25):
Their domain is what they are,their power, and their domain is
the essence of what type ofentity they are.
They are, in my opinion,equally as likely to, like you
know, say like you know, forgivethis criminal, like for their
crimes, as they are to say thiscriminals, death will prevent,
(15:51):
like, will prevent a war.
So there is more peace fromtheir death than there is that
that they would get like a godsReaction or a higher entities
reaction in any situationdepends on who they are like.
If we're going forgotten realms, grats, grats, whatever the
(16:11):
demon, the demon lord of likelust and stuff, lust and
hedonism and etc.
In any situation we'll always dothe hedonistic option.
Yeah, and that is the thing islike the hedonistic option might
be, because if the hedonisticoption might be Chaotic, evil
and you know, probably amajority of the time is some
(16:33):
sort of evil, I, but there alsomight be an argument to be made
that like, sometimes who is tosay that Grats doesn't do good
things in excess?
Because why not Like?
That's the thing is Grats,hedonism isn't one thing, it's
like excess in general.
Essentially it's like livingand sensation and all that like
(16:58):
Making someone happy is asensation because like you can
feel that you can like feel like, oh, I made him happy.
It's like, it's an emotion.
All depends on, like the mood orlike a god of war this is
another example.
I'd use it with a friend theother day ago a god of war, it's
equally likely to one day wereto continue as they are, to one
(17:20):
day war to stop so that bothsides can recover and start
another war later.
Yes, like a god of war mightone day send, like you know, a
prophecy or a vision orsomething for their clerics
saying like the war's over, stopthe war.
Do everything you can to stopthe war, because both sides are
getting too devastated and thatmeans I won't get another war.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, I want more wars, and I Would say that's a
really good take.
I I do assign alignment, but Iassign alignment for a very
different reason.
So mine has to do with and, and, if you were to like, for
example, for for people who arelistening, if you check out our
patreon, we went through andmade an article completely on
(18:06):
alignment and Giving betterdescriptions than the books,
because the books descriptions Ithink everyone can agree on are
terrible.
We got a single sentence forevery single one.
So we went through and sat downas a group and made alignment
descriptions and advice onrunning the alignment.
And for me, alignments are basedon intentions, not actions.
(18:28):
So I will Apparently give allof my gods that I intend to use
an alignment and then I actuallysort my DM binder when I'm in
my God's portion.
I sort it by alignment and thenI highlight the portion of the
plane that they're on so that Ican keep a better organizational
method, because if I'm lookingfor a God to be Worshiped by
(18:52):
this group of clerics, that isevil.
I want to be able to say, okay,let's flip to the evil portion,
let's look at chaotic, let'slook at lawful and then I'm
gonna.
I'm gonna dig through and lookthrough everybody and see what's
gonna fit my narrative better.
That's how I like to keepmyself organized.
So that's why I do attach thatalignment, because inherently
some gods you can have a God ofwar who is good because they're
(19:14):
they are the the patron of Noblecombat, and you can have a God
that is the God of destructionand war.
That is chaotic evil, and so Iwould say that it's.
It helps me keep organized alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, that's, that's fair.
You can have gods that aredifferent aspects of the same
things.
It's like, and that's the thingis like the more if you have a
God who their entire portfoliois God of war, that in that is
all of war, that is their onething, that is they are
encompassing war, good, bad, etc.
(19:49):
But if you have a God who'slike the God of war and honor,
and then you that is likeObviously that God is going to
want like on or war, and andthen because that that's like
such a specific thing, then youcan have another God.
It's like war and cowardice orsomething like that, like the
more domains you give a God, themore specific their domain gets
(20:13):
it's, I would say because itboth gets more general and more
specific, I think more specificdomains have a greater place
within the entirety of D&D,because we need to go back and
build and it gives us thisaspect as a DM, to role play
when you have a specific God.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
If they are the God of honorable combat, they're
gonna want to see one-on-onefights.
They're gonna be more hands-on,they're gonna be more
controlling, especially ifthey're stuck on the mortal
realm or they're like a humanthat has been promoted or an elf
that is been promoted to a God.
They're going to want to go inand be like during these wars.
They're gonna want to be ageneral on the front line and
pretend to be a human and belike I want to see you for a
(20:59):
duel and it's like.
It's so much more fun and givesyou more storytelling pull a.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Pull a steel dragon and just a gun of honorable
combat role playing as somerandom soldier.
Yeah, I Love okay, totally uptopic, steel dragons cosplaying
as normal people.
Amazing the idea of gods doingthat, I love it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Oh yeah, a God of agriculture who's just or God or
goddess of agriculture who'sjust Odes a farm somewhere and
then all of a sudden, aftertheir appointed Godhood, the
local land becomes incrediblyProsperous for no reason and
they're just like chilling there, hiding their existence.
(21:42):
I think that is so funny andadds a mystery session, a
mystery part where they're gonnabe like man.
This area has really great cropgrowth, but it hasn't rained in
four years.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I wonder why that is did someone make it with a devil
and then meanwhile old likeLike old lady, just send on the
sidelines, just sit there,they're going.
None of them know that.
I'm just the goddess ofagriculture.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And it works a lot better.
I think that that works a lotbetter for a, for a DM
perspective.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah um, when you're doing, when you're doing gods,
you kind of have to pick a lane,not a crook, not like a total
lane, like for not, it doesn'thave to be all encompassing, but
for every single God you kindof have to pick are they more
human or are they more inhuman?
Because he got a pick one?
Because you can't try, tryingto do both, it's possible, it's
(22:35):
not easy and you know you can.
You kind of have to pick one,be like their main vibe, and
then you can have moments whereit shows other things, like, for
example, my home world.
I like the idea of like, likeOriginal gods and then like
later gods that popped up so Iseparate it into primordial and
(23:00):
primordial are like gods thatJust existed, like they are the
gods from the creation myth.
They are the gods, they're likethe AO, they are the, the IO or
whatever.
The big dragon God is that inyour world.
They are those, they are thosepeople and those ones I make
(23:24):
Auditally inhuman, like theymight.
They might, if there's somereason, one of them would pay
attention to you, you know,manifests like an avatar and
speak to you, but the whole timethey do.
I do my very best to give anundertone vibe of this is a very
strange Thing talking to you.
(23:44):
Yeah, this is something thatyou reasonably shouldn't be
talking to, because if you knewin any small portion Anything
about the true nature of thisbeing, you would be immediately
insane.
Yeah, I like eldritch horrorvibes and I do that, but then
(24:06):
for like smaller gods, like likesmaller gods, I make them
pretty human, like cuz I Makethem.
Actually, I won't say that Imake them as human as their
domain is Okay, because that isthat is something that is also
should be said is like how humana god is really should depend
on their like, what they are Godof, like a God of love deeply
(24:32):
like, deeply mortal, like innature.
I Would?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I would disagree.
Actually, I would say Because,for me, unless you're like the
God of some Incredibly inhumanthing like if you're the God of,
if you're a God of nature andspecifically of a specific area,
you're gonna be incrediblyhuman.
You can be incredibly human andand like even even things that
(24:56):
are very like.
You can become the God offishing by being a fisherman
your whole life and Becoming alike.
There are ways to do it where Iwould say, the domain, unless
you're like the God of suffering.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
What about?
Here's something I see.
What about God, people, godswho are like the God of storms,
like the God of a naturalphenomenon that is ancient and
deeply like Disconnected?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
so for me there's.
If I was to be writing a, ahere, I'm gonna use the.
I'm gonna use a differentexample than storm Mm-hmm, I'm
gonna use time, okay, this timeis a very important one.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I just finished making the God of time for my
homebrew world.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So in my, in my homebrews, I usually run
multiple gods of time, andwhat's important to me about it
is when I'm writing a God oftime it depends on how I'm using
them, which route I take eithera they have always been, and
they're a part of this Kind ofcouncil that keeps everything.
Think have you seen the showLoki?
(26:03):
Think you kind of like the thetime syndicate, whatever they
call it?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
TV a.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I think, yeah, I'm very authority yeah or the or
the other option is a level 20Chrono man, sir Wizard, who is
enlightened and becomes a God.
That character is gonna beincredibly human, even though
they control literally natureitself, because they were human
(26:31):
and they.
You don't fully get warped whenyou become a God unless you've
existed for Millennials andreally.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
I Play with that.
Okay, this is a fun thing.
One of my okay, my home game isstill going on, but we've
reached the point in thecampaign we can kind of see the
end coming, and so it's kind ofgone to a point where, like all
the players have already writtenfor me, they're like character
epilogues.
None of those really matter.
(27:00):
It's over one which is one ofthe characters, were Coney,
where her whole deal is thatafter she, after the campaign
dropped up, they defeat the bigbad evil guy, etc.
They, she goes off and startslike an organization whose whole
deal is like help, like kind ofhelping people, kind of it's
more like, you know, likeBringing her idea of justice.
(27:23):
She essentially becomes likethe founder of like a night
order.
Okay, and part of what I'vediscussed with her is the
epilogue is that after hercharacter dies, it's sort of
like those ideas carry on andeventually, posthumously, her
character ascends to Godhoodbecause those ideas take root as
(27:44):
a religious ideology.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Okay, I, I don't mind it.
I, I don't mind that, take Ijust, for me it's.
It's rewarding when you see acharacter fully ascend to God as
an epilogue, especially if youhit level 20, and I would say,
especially for casters, that'svery important.
(28:08):
I think that's very crucial.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I don't limit it to just casters.
But yeah, she, she is going, sheis a god.
I have the campaign that I'mrunning.
Come in, that I'm running rightnow.
That's not my home one.
It takes place in the future ofthat world where she it's it
past the point where she hasbecome a god.
Mm-hmm, she has been a god inlore for maybe 20 years.
(28:31):
Back, that thing.
That's.
The thing is like if someonewere to speak to her.
It's literally just hercharacter With god powers,
because it has been 20 years.
She is just her with some godpowers, and so it's like her
character is a barbarian,barbarian, was 16 intelligence
(28:55):
because she rolled really highon stats, but her character is
just a barbarian who eventuallybecomes a god because, like
religious ideology and all thatstuff, the it's like if someone
were to talk to her, she wouldbe like very little social
graces and it would just be likelook, just do what I tell you.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, and I think for me, with this whole ideology
behind it, I would say it's veryimportant to know what kind of
god you're talking to.
Are you talking to somethingthat is ancient or are you
talking to something that isrelatively young?
Yeah, and when you're creatinggods, I like it when characters
(29:36):
become gods at the epilogue.
I tend to avoid doing it withholy casters, because they're
worshiping something else.
If you are worshiping, forexample, a warlock, worshiping a
patron, you're not going toascend to god.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
No, you're not.
But, you might have to saywhatever that entity makes you.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Yeah, you might become an eldritch whore for the
rest of existence, but you'renot going to become this
beautiful eternal being.
That's just out of the cardsfor you.
But if you're a sorcerer thathits level 20 and has wish,
you're probably going to end upas a deity of some kind.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
Wish can't maybe a hot take?
Wish can't make someone a deity.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, it can't, but like it can grant you a presence
with a deity you can wish tospeak to, a god you can wish to
talk to a deity and if you dothat, the chance that they book,
especially a greater deity.
If you've been following them,there's a chance they might give
you lesser godhood and then Ithink it would almost be really
funny that you become the godsassistant for eternity.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That's something that's fun to mention, because I
love the idea of gods grantingOkay, so Rikoni she back to her.
She becomes the goddess ofrecompense and reconciliation.
So essentially it's like likelike recompense and
(31:04):
reconciliation, it's likeforgiveness kind of, and you
know getting what you deserve.
So the joke is that she's a godof karma.
She is in the like world lore,a lesser deity who serves under
(31:25):
the god of the god of law andorder or the god of law, and so
it's like a weird thing wherelike gods can have lesser gods
that are like sub parts of thereand they are like the boss of
that god.
Okay, it's when I'm 40 yearsbadly.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Okay, so I have a question for you, and this has
to do with how I make gods.
I make gods on a charactersheet because I find that
incredibly enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
But what I do and this is this is similar to how I
do the big bats for mycampaigns.
Big bats I do for my campaignsI do a little differently than I
do gods.
So when I do a big bat for mycampaign, I will take three to
four d12s and roll rather thand6s, because it gives me the
chance to have much higher statsand much lower stats.
(32:23):
But with a god I'll roll like66s and I'll drop the lowest one
or two.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, I just I don't stat deities, okay, or their
entities at all.
I just don't if you, if you, ifyou ever play in a game,
because we do know each other,if you ever play in a game with
me and there is any sort of likearchdevil, feylord or etc.
(32:53):
Just a tip.
I've probably not stat itbecause the answer to can you
fight it is probably no.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
See, for me, the answer is always yes.
Can you fight it?
Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
The answer actually yeah, you're right?
The answer is the answer to canyou fight?
It is yes.
The answer to will you win isno.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
For me it's like can I fight it?
Yes, awesome.
So this character, I behind theDM screen, they're a paladin.
They smite you for 49 damage.
What the fuck is that thing?
That's all I did to like to runit, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
It's like I I once had a player smack the God of
Chaos in my home world in one ofthe campaigns that I ran.
That was like kind of likehigher scale yeah, and the God
of Chaos like had an avatar andthey just slap across the face
and the thing is I had to make aquick moment decision.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
This is a deity.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Does that deity care?
Because they had a negativestrength modifier so it would do
one damage maximum.
But it's an avatar, so it'simmune to non-magic damage and
it's an, and it was, it was.
I forget what class they were,but they weren't a monk, so a
slap is not magical, so itdidn't do anything and so I just
(34:20):
had it.
I just had the God of Chaos belike why, why, what did you do?
They just laughed and were likethat's adorable.
I don't know why you're doingthat, though it's.
It's kind of I don't, I don'tknow.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
So I lost it.
There's a reason that I fullyfill out a character sheet for
deities and that reason is if aplayer decides they want to lie
to a God, they know they do.
But it depends on what kind ofdeity it is.
That's awesome.
If it's AO, I'm just going tobe like no, ao is the creator of
(35:01):
all things, I don't bother tostat him.
But if it's like, for example,the guy from the Forgotten
Realms, I'm going to stat himout.
And I like to do it as acharacter sheet because for me
it gives me so many moremodifiers that I can actually
physically look at and pull upquick time and not have to do
mental math.
That it's a lot easier for me.
And if you're going to try tolie to a God, I think me ruling
(35:23):
66s and dropping the lowest onetoo is a pretty good way to bump
those stats quite a bit whereit's going to be pretty hard to
lie to them.
And obviously it depends on age.
But I just add de-6s for agerelative to what I think is
acceptable versus my finalbosses where I'll literally roll
40, 12s and make it like acharacter, because I personally
(35:48):
have mostly played casters in myD&D career.
I've played a cleric.
I've played way too manywizards, way too many sorcerers
and a couple warlocks.
I'm going to make that a magiccaster like a lich.
I'm going to roll 3d12s and youbest believe if I roll 3d12s,
(36:08):
that's all going in my magicstaff and you're not going to
get me.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Intelligence of 36 is insane.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Yeah, that's like the final bosses usually for me.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
That is.
I mean to be fair, that's fair.
A BBG should be kind ofridiculous Well, kind of
depending on the campaign.
But the yeah, I don't stat godsjust because I've had players
(36:41):
before.
I have had player horrorstories before, and one of the
main reasons I don't stat godsis because I've had players who
have mid maxed before and theydeal 300 damage in a turn and I
can kill a god and I was like ifI stat a god, someone's going
to do some bullshit.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
See, for me I encourage it because you best
hit it.
It's that mentality of like, ifyou're going to take a swing,
it better be a good one, becauseif it's not a good one, you're
done.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
To be fair, I also run what is a fairly dark world.
Yeah, that's fair, becauseeverything's kind of shitty and
everyone's kind of dead.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Yeah, so yeah, I just I like using them for combat.
I think gods are.
I think even having an evil godis like the final big bad for a
campaign can be a lot of fun.
And I'm not going to lie to you.
For me, the final fighteveryone is so freaked out about
(37:52):
having these gorgeous AppleOaks for the characters I don't
mind.
Tpking is my last thing.
If you go to kill this big bad,god, who's corrupting the world
, and he slaughters the wholeparty and the world falls into
ruin, that's just as satisfyingof an end to me as a happy one,
(38:12):
and that's just a personalpreference, I would say, and
this kind of feels like it'sgetting on like plot beats which
might be a topic for another.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, we're going to go through the plot later but,
like I say, it depends on theplayers whether or not that is a
satisfying ending because I, asa DM and satisfied with
whatever happens.
If my player is TPK, great, I'mhappy, whatever we move on.
I have a million other campaignideas but like it's up to that,
(38:43):
like if the player doesn't wanttheir character to die, I'll
find a way to bring thecharacter back If a player, as
long as it's remotely possible,if a player or like they're not
asking me anything absurd if aplayer like if we got to the
final fight of the campaign andthey all died, and then, like
(39:04):
you know, they like they alldied and all the care, all the
players were like well, we triedand they were all cool with it,
I would be like cool, and thenwe would start a new campaign,
move on.
I'd probably you know Iwouldn't retcon the whole
campaign, but I'd probably likeretcon the ending or something.
(39:25):
If I wanted to run in the sameworld again.
Or I'd just say new timeline.
None of it ever happened, youknow whatever, but that's if I
wanted to run in the same world.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
I am I am diabolical.
I'm very diabolical because mylast campaign where I actually
had the party get TPK.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Okay, on purpose or did it just happen?
Speaker 1 (39:48):
At the end they just couldn't beat the final boss.
Okay, we resurrected and westarted playing.
The final boss resurrected thembecause he was a God and they
started playing from the evilside.
That's fun which was actually alot of fun, and my characters
loved it because all of thesecharacters they had grown bonds
with in the cities and stuffwe're now fighting against them.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
See, that's fun.
That's the kind of thing oflike I would talk about players
and that might be an idea Iwould give them is like this is
a lich.
There's like a 60% chance he'sgoing to bring it all back to
life.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, let's just go back to war Both.
This time we're going to warwith the mortals, and then you
got a nice evil campaign.
That feels very satisfying.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
And then here's the thing maybe all of them then
lose against the other good guys, and then the world ends up
like being like saved in the end.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, who knows, or they break the magic and the
party gets to turn on the lichwhen he thinks they're on their
side.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, like that's the kind of thing like you kind of
If they died and all the playerswere like, cool, let's move on,
I would just end their move on.
But like, if they want to keepgoing with these characters and
stuff, we'll find a way, we'llfind it can be a lot of fun,
especially with, especially whenyou have like gods and shit,
like, okay, if you ever speak toany of my players, tell them
(41:13):
none of this.
Okay, and if any of my playersthat are my current campaign,
the colony one, or listen everlisten to this, click off, jump
forward, like to jump forwardlike three minutes.
Um, so, one of the players ithasn't happened yet, but they
have discussed with me pre, likepre the game that they want
(41:37):
their character to have areligious awakening.
Okay, what so they're.
They want their character totake levels and cleric after
being exposed to a certainreligion that currently Her,
they and I are building together.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So there I'm letting them partake in the whole
building the god like they're.
They're coming up, they'rehelping build their own god,
they're helping build their ownreligion, etc.
And because the pantheon'sunfinished, so I'm pretty cool
with that, with that.
So If, say, like got to thevery final battle and, like you
(42:19):
know, a whole party dies, ifthat character were to Like be,
if that character might be theway like if everyone wanted to
keep going, I like, like rat,like fixed that to happen.
Yeah, because they are, theyare going to at least.
(42:42):
So I like to discuss likelong-term ideas with players
really early, um, and what Idiscussed with them is like
becoming like what's interestingabout like a saint of this
religion, okay, and so thatwould be like a really
interesting like plot point islike that's part of their saint
myth, is like they died and thenCrawled back from hell or
(43:06):
something like that, like Likethe pit, because their god is
going to be a brutal.
Yeah, that is going to be, theirgod is going to be a god.
That is like rather brutal andunforgiving.
So it would be the kind ofthing of like all the players
die and then in the likeafterlife that that player like
(43:26):
begs their god for a chance andI we have like a whole, like
couple sessions where the godslike, all right, you want me to
bring you back to life, I willprove you're worth it.
And Then we have whole couplesessions were literally they're
just like fighting and likedoing trials or some shit to
prove to this God that theydeserve to come back to life.
(43:47):
And then if they complete itand honestly I would make it so
that Not the whole party couldcomplete it, like if, if there's
seven people in that game I'mrunning a campaign, seven people
if five of them pass the trialsand two don't, to Sorry.
The god is not gonna give you asecond chance, but they could be
(44:09):
resurrected somewhere else, ifthe lord gets one of the party
members can do it.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah, you're.
As long as look, as long assomeone gets back from the dead,
as long as you got 500 goldpieces in your pocket, anything
is possible.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I swear and then like they all wake up and it's been
like two seconds since they died, like that sort of a thing I I
Really useful, but they're alsoreally annoying sometimes, which
is a really weird dichotomy.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, I think it's very important to plan them and
execute properly, withoutoveruse, don't over, don't
overuse them.
And I, personally, I personallydon't like Some of forgotten
realms.
I really just like the conceptthat, if enough people worship
(45:00):
one thing, it becomes a godwhere, if you step on this
specific frog creature I don'tremember what it is, yep and it
creates a god of your foot.
I don't like that.
I don't like it at all.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Kua Toa that's the whole thing is in forgotten
realms.
The belief of every creaturehas power and can create deities
.
Kua Toa have more power Per KuaToa than per average mortal.
So it takes far less Kua Toa tomake a god than it does other
(45:32):
worlds.
Yep which is interesting becauseit can lead to some really
weird things, because Kua Toaare also extremely religious and
Dumb and they want they want agod to worship.
They, if you've played Balder,gets Baldur's Gate 3.
There is a Kua Toa.
This is a spoiler.
Anyone who hasn't playedBaldur's Gate 3, stop listening.
(45:53):
Jump forward like five minutesthe, not five minutes like two,
but the.
There's a Kua Toa town in thatgame.
Have you found it?
I haven't played Baldur's Gateat all.
Okay, this is do you want me to?
Speaker 1 (46:09):
I don't mind.
I don't intend to play the game, oh, okay.
I know not that I don't enjoythe game.
It's.
I want to run D&D and I don'thave time to run the campaigns.
I want to run and play Baldur'sGate.
I will get sucked in, so I'mI'm gonna keep my head forward
on D&D Until the time where Ihave more free time, and then
(46:30):
I'll do it.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yeah, that's fair, the.
So there's a Kua Toa town inthere where they are worshiping,
but a Bohol or something likethat.
It's something positive, weird,but it's supposed to be like a
ripoff of ball.
Who is the forgotten realms?
God of murder, murder andstrife?
I think, yeah, that soundsright to me.
(46:54):
And so this god, who's like aWhatever with their worshiping,
who's just like this weird, likelittle blood creature, turns
out to just be a red cap, whichis a fey who convinced a bunch
of Kua Toa they were a god.
And so this, this red capbecause that's the thing is Kua
(47:14):
Toa make gods, don't make likereal.
Yeah, because their gods Don'tbecome that's the difference is
like mortals.
It takes a lot more of them tomake a god, and over a long
period of time, but they makelike a real.
Quote unquote god Kua Toa.
If they stop believing, they'regone, fizzles into nothing.
(47:37):
They, they need the Kua Toa tokeep believing or else they
literally just disappear.
Yeah, unless they weresomething before, unless they
were something alive before, andthen they just go back to what
they were.
And so you, playing the game,can make a check to realize this
is just a fey who is deceivinga bunch of Kua Toa and then, if
(47:59):
you do that, you can just Murderit.
It is much tougher than theaverage red cap, though, because
it has, because it has a powerbuff from a from a village of
Kua Toa, and so it's a reallycool thing where, like, you get
(48:22):
to see as some small aspect oflike how gods get made and
forgotten.
Else and in a lot of other, alot of other worlds use the same
system of like belief makes agod.
I even use it Because that'skind of you know, it's easy,
it's also makes sense.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
I use a modified version, and the reason that I
use a modified version Isbecause I don't like this
concept that you poof into beingAll of a sudden when you have a
hundred people believing in you.
You have to be a living thingbeforehand.
You have to be a living thingbeforehand.
That is my rule with young gods.
(49:00):
Is I?
You had to have had a lifebefore.
You may not remember that life,but you had a life, because
then all of the legendary heroesin your world, there's a reason
to be a legendary hero.
You could die and go to thequote unquote heaven, or you
could become an immortal god,like there is then.
That gives more power for theplayers, for your NPCs to strive
(49:25):
for.
It gives them purpose, andthat's my belief.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, I it's.
That's very true because, like,if players know that becoming a
god is a possible epilogue, alot of players will be like, oh,
that sounds difficult, there'sthey.
But like, there's theoccasional player who hears that
and goes how?
And you're like today's the day, and then there's two versions
(49:52):
of that player.
There's the power gamer who'shoping you'll let them become a
god in game and then use thosepowers in game which no, never,
uh.
Or there's like the story, likethe role player, story player
who wants to literally build acharacter with the whole purpose
of that character Is toeventually end up a god in, like
(50:15):
the world war, which is raconiUm.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
I actually believe it or not, that's the cleric that
I played was their entire goalwas to become a god and a lawful
good god of peace andtranquility, and they were doing
it through raising a zombiearmy to stomp out all wars.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
That's Not a lawful good yeah don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Don't worry about it.
It was a interesting characterto play.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
That is a person with a very demented sense of good.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yes, it was, and that was the whole point was.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
That person is going to end up being something that
is very much not a god.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
That is good um their goal was to create world peace
and become a god of peacethrough murder, yeah, basically
through, through using corpsesto stop all war without having
death.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
I mean it was an interesting character, it was a
fun one to play.
Yeah, that is.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I Don't know what to say about that.
Yeah, interesting character Ihave.
Here's the thing you Talkingabout the characters you've
played makes me a little bitangry, because I have ever, only
ever played two characters.
Because, I've only ever playedin place.
I am a forever DM and I stuckas that.
We fair.
(51:45):
I love D, I love DMing.
I have control issues, but theBoth times I've been a player,
might the DM has at some pointtold me Stop telling players
rules when they ask what therule is before I can tell them
the rule I?
I I can't really turn it off.
(52:07):
I'm one of those people who Ican't really turn it off, so I'm
better being a deal.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
The for me.
I've played both.
I I am mostly a DM.
I've played more.
I've DMed more games than I'veplayed Mm-hmm, but the games
I've played because I have DMedso much.
If I'm gonna play a game, I'mnot gonna do your normal Joe
Schmoe, I'm gonna mess with yourhead, I'm gonna play that
(52:32):
character that you're sittingthere and you're like.
For that one, my whole goal wasto make the rest of the party
question.
Is this really good?
Speaker 2 (52:39):
anymore.
Yeah, I played, and actuallythis does connect to the God
topic.
Yeah, I play.
The both characters I've everplayed have both been very
religious.
Really, the first characterever played was a paladin.
He was a paladin of helm in theforgotten realms.
Actually, which is helm is myfavorite God In the forgotten
(53:01):
realms Hell.
To be fair, it's kind of easyfor home to be the favorite God
because most forgotten realmgods are bad people.
Looks at misstra activelytelling someone to commit
suicide in Baldur's Gate 3.
The yeah, misstra's are bad andDeserves to be smited by helm.
(53:23):
Hot take, but was that a coughor you telling me to like?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
that was me coughing, that was.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
That was like a.
No, you're okay, cool, the Allright.
So that game actually hadinteresting thing because I had
to leave that campaign.
Actually, that campaign startedto fall apart because of some
interpersonal issues, but the DMtold me at one point what his
plans for the character was.
Because the whole thing was itwas a, an ASMR paladin, and
(53:58):
named Samuel Mundus, whichliterally translates to like
Samuel, normal.
Like Mundus is like Latin orsomething for like normal or
mundane, and Apparently I didn'tknow this but in like forgotten
.
This is something that you willactually find interesting
because it connects back to likeyou're talking about, like a, a
(54:19):
document, like the domain of aGod shapes who they are and also
, like God should be human.
So I Didn't know this.
Apparently in some Forgottenones lore or something, helm was
in at one point in love withthe goddess of practicality,
like goddess of like pragmatismor something.
And this is what this is what Iwas told.
(54:41):
This might have been the loremy DM made up and the so ASMR,
all are descended from somecelestial and the running.
What he told me is thateventually, if that campaign I
kept going on, it would havecome out that the reason because
there was a running joke,because Samuel always rolled
(55:03):
super high.
Like always I rolled like belowa 10, like twice in, like a
campaign.
We had like 30 sessions, um,but the it became a running joke
.
At one point.
The DM gave me his dice andsaid roll these.
And I rolled two natural 20s ina row and he just went.
(55:24):
It's just, it's just luck.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
But you were bestowed by the gods.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Yeah, that became the running joke.
Is that I'm the helm?
Is that Samuel was Helm'sfavorite and the DM actually
made it Like more yeah, thatSamuel, just helm loves him.
I love that and the reason thathe told me he was gonna end up
coming out was because helm wasin love with this like goddess
who died, mm-hmm, and Samuel washis, like ASMR, celestial, like
(55:57):
ancestry.
Was that goddess and he was oneof.
He was one of her only livingdescendants with like a spark of
celestial power and he was alsoa.
He was also Entirely by cosmicchance or some twist of the
fates or AO or some bullshit aPaladin of hell.
(56:17):
So helm not only had power overhim as a pellet, as a paladin
and Permission as a god toprotect him as his paladin, but
also a reason to like him thatmuch because he was one of the
last descendants of helm's dead,like girlfriend, essentially
yeah.
(56:37):
I like that, which is like it'skind of inhuman but it's also
kind of very human and it's ILikeed it.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
I like it too.
It's an interesting way to usea god.
Well, I will say that is whereI'm gonna cut it, because of the
fact that we basically startedgoing off on tangents, because
we've covered most of the thingsthat we wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2 (56:59):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
Um, so thank you everyone who listened.
Um, if you're interested, checkout any of the links below for
more content.
And other than that, I hope youall have a great day.
Yeah, hi everyone, bob.
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