October 15, 2023 • 38 mins
Ready to tackle the controversial yet fascinating terrain of alignment in Dungeons and Dragons? This episode is your deep-dive ticket into the discussion - Is alignment an absolute law, or a rich tapestry that shapes character development? Buckle up as we dissect the alignment chart, the characters’ intentions versus actions, and the intriguing difference between chaotic characters in the game manual and our interpretation.
The journey continues as we investigate the complex relationship between alignment and divine magic. We question how a character's actions can challenge their patron's desire, yet still wield their magic. Delve into the realm of holy casters, their alignment, and the intriguing consequences of defying a patron's expectations. We also sit down with the intriguing gray area of neutral characters - are they easy or tough to play?
Finally, we zero in on the popular game Baldur's Gate, offering some critical insights into the challenges players might face when transitioning to D&D, especially in character creation without an alignment. We also share a few useful tips for both novices and seasoned players to help navigate these challenges. Join us for a thought-provoking adventure into the world of alignment and magic in RPG. Let’s go beyond the game manual and dive into the depths of character development.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. If you are interested in seeing more content like this check out our YouTube! We also post weekly game articles on our Patreon and have an active Discord community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.
So this is going to be episodeone of our dungeon master
inspiration podcast.
What we're going to be doing iswe're going to be talking about
topics and how we can adjustthem to kind of fit games.
We're going to be talking withmultiple different people.
I'm going to be your primaryhost, Wyatt and I am Jay.
So our kind of our discussionfor today was alignment.
We were talking about it andthere's there's a lot of
(00:21):
controversy, especially with howa lot of people like to play
alignment.
A big thing that I personallyhave kind of an issue with is a
lot of the time it's treatedalmost like it's this strict law
that has to be followed byevery single character and you
can never deviate from that.
Personally, like I don't thinkthat that fits how normal people
(00:42):
act and I want to have moredepth than my characters, so
like I don't have issues withpeople breaking what their
character would do according totheir alignment.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So to me, the the alignment system is very like,
not in depth enough for like anactual character person, like no
person is going to be the likelawful, stupid paladin who's
like.
Ah yes, we can't touch thegrass.
You touch the grass, I'm goingto cut your head off.
No one's going to do that.
But that's what lawful, good orlawful neutral technically is.
(01:13):
But so like to me it needs tobe a little more like
complicated out of four terms.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, I think that the the like nine terms that you
can grab out of the alignmentchart isn't a bad way to start a
character development.
I just think that a bigquestion that, like every DM,
has to ask themselves is are webasing alignment on initiative
or on the actions of the player?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So for me, like this is the my always take with, like
I always try to go more indepth with alignment for any
character I'm making.
I don't actually like use thelawful.
I use that as like the verybroad, we're doing lawful,
neutral, like they're going tofollow a rule set of like the
God, of what I, but like I enjoy.
There's a net alternate systemwhich is like based on the magic
(02:01):
color pie, where you have, likeyour blue, your blue white
characters would be likeknowledge and order or like
control, and where that's yourpriority, as opposed to like I'm
just following a law and I'mgood, and it gives that little
extra depth as to how you wouldactually act for it, as opposed
(02:21):
to just, well, I'm a good person.
What's my goal?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Like for me personally, I take almost a
different approach of I likewhen my characters and as a DM,
this is really how I enforcealignment I think that
intentions are far moreimportant than the actual
actions of the player.
So because, at the end of theday, for me, if I see a lawful
good character and their lawfulgood is they're going to save as
(02:48):
many lives as possible andglorify their God for a paladin,
for example, and in order tosave 100,000 lives, they have to
do something horrible thatcharacter is going to do.
That it's the intention of theact.
Whereas I've heard of a lot ofDMs and I've even played in
campaigns where we kind of beentaken and my alignment's been
(03:11):
changed because I did somethingevil for a good app, for a good
intention, and I'm not sure thatas a DM, I like that
perspective.
I don't think it's a wrong one,but it's just not the flavor of
table that I want to have.
Yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So this is like my big example, for like the
intentions and it's kind of alittle bit of intention and
action is like necromancers.
All necromancers are evil.
But what if you have anecromancer who's using the
death to do something good, like, for instance, you could have a
necromancer who's using thedead because, for whatever
(03:47):
reason, to take out a greaterevil Like this guy has, you know
, killed hundreds of likesoldiers.
They're just sitting there andyou might lose without them.
So sometimes that action ofdoing this evil act isn't a bad
thing in the end, for whatyou're going to call your goal
at the end of the day is anddefinitely I think that that's a
(04:11):
really good Stance to take.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
But I also can see where, if you want your actions
to be of the player, I wouldn'treally railroad the players into
.
Well, you chose to do a lawfulgood character, so now I'm gonna
make you only do lawful goodactions, but rather with an
action-based Alignment.
I would almost say that I wouldpersonally rather tell my
(04:37):
player hey, if you're gonna baseyour alignment on action, I
really want to see how yourcharacter interacts with
everybody and I really want you,thinking about that Beforehand
and during session zero, maybeplay out a test fight or a test
encounter or a puzzle and seehow that player Interprets their
character and then use those asyour foundation for that
(04:57):
alignment so that, especially ifit's a paladin or a cleric,
have them role, play theircharacter and then choose their
alignment and Find the Godthat's gonna best fit them after
that kind of test encounter.
Now a question that I've beenasked and I asked myself
oftentimes is how the bookdescribes chaotic is very, very
(05:21):
different from how I envision it, and so I oftentimes ask myself
Does a chaotic character justresist the rules to resist the
rules?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So for chaotic at least in my mind, always has
been the level of you're notnecessarily Crazy or doing
something like oh well, they sayI can't kill people, I'm gonna
go murder a hundred differentpeople.
It's more of the how I'm goingto go around my actions to
either for good or for evil.
So, like you could have achaotic good character who is
(05:55):
Doesn't care about what therules in the region is, it is
just going to do what is good,regardless of Whatever rules are
around them, as opposed tosomebody who would be like a
neutral, who is going to try tokind of hit that middle ground
up between being just what,screw the rules are.
I'm gonna do my thing is.
And then with the like otherside of it is the almost like
(06:20):
especially with like wild magic.
Wild magic, chaotic isn't goodor evil, but it I would argue
that it would be like a wildmagic almost has to be a chaotic
alignment because there's alevel of Whatever happens is
going to happen.
For my goal of good or evil orNeutral doesn't fit very well.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
But how I oftentimes find myself interpreting chaotic
is almost more in aself-serving fashion.
Lawful characters are gonnaalways do what's right, whereas
chaotic they're kind offollowing their whims.
And that's how I interpretchaotic personally, and I like
the mention of wild magic.
With wild magic I almost, if Iwas to play that character, I
(07:03):
would almost want to run aLawful character who has chaotic
magic for the dichotomy and theinternal struggle, and I think
that's something that's reallyinteresting about the
storytelling portion of V&D isthe fact that you can't have
Characters that innate traitsthat are given by the class can
have that dichotomy against thepersonality of the character.
(07:24):
Like I did play a necromancerwho was lawful good and that was
really interesting dichotomyfor me to experience and to kind
of try to have this charactergrapple with the reality that
they are Doing something evilbut for the right reasons.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah.
So like with the chaos Partingfor like with relation to the
rules, the chaos doesn't have tobe against specific rules, it's
just they have to be more likeon their own independent thought
and almost that likeanti-organizational method.
Not like I'm gonna blow up agovernment building because it's
(08:04):
a government building, but thethis group is being either for
or against my Group.
So like if you're, let's say,chaotic, good, and you have an
or a government that's just killeveryone who's in the way,
we're gonna call it a day.
A chaotic character would blowthem up, not because, well, the
rules say I shouldn't, butbecause it's to reach their end
(08:27):
of goodness, but I do.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I do find myself disagreeing a lot of the time
with people when they talk aboutAlignment and it's shifting
over time.
I don't like to forcibly moveplayers Alignments when they are
hard set on having a specificalignment, because that feels
like I'm almost railroadingplayers.
(08:51):
So what I like to do is I liketo see, based on how they act
and if their goal is to have anintention inside of themselves
for specific actions and towardsgood or towards evil, I like to
let my players kind of playthat out.
Now, obviously, if I have alawful, good character who's
just running around killingpeople to kill people, we're
(09:14):
gonna have a long conversationabout, well, why is that
character doing that?
Or maybe we should startlooking elsewhere For the
inspiration for how they shouldbe acting.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
So for that, the for me at least, the biggest spot
that comes in is like lawfulcharacters who like, who don't
follow the legal laws.
So to some degree it depends onhow you're interpreting what
your lawful good is.
Like a good example, I likepaladins and clerics might be
lawful good because their godhas this code, like most
(09:45):
paladins should realistically belawful what.
That doesn't necessarily meanthey're going to follow their go
into town and be like, yes, I'mgonna follow every single rule
to the letter, but it means theyhave this oath and that is
their code that they are goingto follow no matter what, which.
Then you have warlocks alsorealistically should be Lawful
(10:06):
to a degree because they havethat same kind of dynamic of
they have to do this forwhatever their code is from
their deal.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So something that I personally Kind of came up with
when I was I was planningthrough some like general things
for us to talk through for this.
I Really liked the idea that Icame up with that you start out
every character in a sessionwithout an alignment and so over
the first three sessions youare playing your character,
(10:37):
truly think about where theycame from, who they are and
really role-playing into it.
And then After that thirdsession, we start talking about
okay, well, as your characterdoing this for good reasons, are
they doing it for bad reasons?
And kind of letting thatcharacter have some life Before
you just slap a title on it.
Because to me I think it's very, very Almost stifling to choose
(11:00):
the alignment so early in thecharacter building process,
because you can have charactersthat more for the first one, two
, three, four, five sessions youreally don't know how that
character is gonna play,especially in the group, because
you can be a lawful, goodcharacter and hand be in a party
.
That's just all Evil charactersand slowly you're gonna morph
(11:22):
that character because they'reeventually they're gonna become
a neutral or an evil, otherwisethey're gonna leave the group
and you're gonna have to startover again.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I, yeah, so I Think part of that is also like the
discussion at the start what isour like groups overall Idea of
what do we want to be?
Because otherwise you're gonnahave that person wants to play a
good character and thenbasically feel like, well, I
can't play because Everyone elsewants to go Help the big bad
(11:49):
guy.
Well, I want to go against them.
So you kind of have to havethat.
There's a bit of that earlydiscussion of what is our group
goal going to be.
And then, obviously, becauseyou're gonna have to make the
put the party together andeveryone's gonna have to be a
little different, there canstill be that difference within,
like they're good and evil, butit almost has to be smaller
(12:13):
than overall Goals and has to behow they act on the day-to-day
or with the people around.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So I was doing my research to be better educated
for this kind of discussion anda big thing that I saw that Was
mentioned a lot of times on alot of DM forms and a lot on
player forms, was this idea ofholy magic casters and it kind
of Resonated with me and broughtme back to this question of
Should a holy magic caster haveto share an alignment with their
(12:44):
god, like if I'm a lawful goodcharacter and I'm worshiping a
lawful evil character a lawfulevil god that is, but I don't
I'm not aware that they'relawful evil that almost falls
into that fiend realm and thatlike demon realm where they're
trying to trick you and takeyour soul, like you would see a
lot in warlocks on occasion.
(13:05):
But with other holy magiccasters like paladins and
clerics, what if a lawful goodcharacters worshiping a god like
Taren?
If they're worshiping Taren,the god of war, is he actually
Gonna bestow any magic upon thembecause they're so vastly
different in goals andideologies?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
so this is actually a Connection I've seen is there's
a character in Baldur's Gate 3whose name is will.
He's the warlock of the partybut his like epitaph is the
blade of the frontier.
He's a hero.
He's like a folk hero to, sohe's a good person trying to do
good things.
So he's like neutral good orlawful good or something like
(13:47):
that.
There's not really hardalignments in the game, but his
patron is a demon, so they'regoing to be evil.
So for like, especially withlike warlocks and clerics can
kind of hit the same spot of howthey use their magic, like, yes
, their god might be evil, butthey can be using that evil
(14:08):
magic for something good aswhich, whether or not that means
their god doesn't like them oris trying to screw them over at
some point.
Like, for instance, thatcharacter at some point has the
option depending on how he acts,he can choose to go against his
oath to his patron and thenbecause he's being a decent
(14:30):
person by going against his oath.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
He gets punished for it, and it's almost that level
of they should be able to bewhatever they want to be, but
there's some piece of theirpatron or god that's going to
affect them because of theirchoices see, and and while that
has an interesting like attitudeand perspective on it, I myself
, as a DM and inclined to say,if you're a lawful Like, let's
(14:56):
say you're a lawful evilcharacter worshipping the lawful
good god of life, I'd almostwant to say that, because of
your actions, that lawful goodgod Isn't going to bestow magic
upon you to let you do evilthings in their name.
And that's where I kind of Ikind of have this challenge in
my mind about it, because,especially like, evil gods a lot
(15:19):
of times will still bestowpower because they want to
corrupt, but that's not alwaystrue with good gods.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It's a difference between what type of class they
are, because I would art, Iwould put the argument of
warlocks are also, in their ownway, a holy caster.
For warlocks it should bewhatever they want to be.
Their patron is going to punishthem for going against what
their whims are, whereas withthe cleric you almost have to
make sure whatever you'rewanting to do and your god have
(15:46):
to align, because if I want toplay a chaotic evil character
and I'm worshiping Bahama Bahama, it's not gonna give me
anything if I'm going out andjust doing whatever I want,
killing everyone in my path.
So, like for clerics, I thinkyou have to be aligned with your
god in some way.
Like you could be a chaoticgood character with a lawful
(16:10):
good god and the god might stillgive you something because
you're doing good.
Or If you're a lawful evil, youmight be doing something if
you're doing somethingbeneficial.
So if you're a lawful evilcleric and you're like a good
example is like the like Lawsector you could be a lawful
(16:32):
evil character in that area,like dynamic of area, but your
lawful good god might still giveyou something because you are
still executing the law in thisOrder of.
This is what needs to be done,even if the intent is to harm.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
At the end of the day , and I think that that really
just comes down to like aftertalking about it, I really am
starting to think that kind ofcomes down to the situation
Because if you are worshipingBahama, for example, and you
You're a lawful, evil characterthat wants to kill all human
race or all dragons let's sayall dragons, because he's a god
(17:11):
of dragons I Don't think hewould bestow matter on you to do
that.
But if you are inherentlycausing good through your evil
actions, I think that God mightstill choose to give it to you.
I Think it's a choice on theperspective of the god more than
the player, whereas with apaladin, I mean, you could have
an oath to anything.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Paladins oath could just be to their partner or to
their spirit of their like.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
If their parents died , they could be making an oath,
and the I'm going to do right byyou and so this, this kind of
discussion, really does lean onclerics and Warlocks almost
exclusively, and, like you said,warlocks, you're just gonna get
punished by your patron, likethat's gonna be a miserable
experience.
But with a cleric I wouldalmost be so interested to see a
(18:01):
lawful evil character who triesto cast a spell for evil means
from a good God and it justfizzles because it doesn't work.
I think that would be a reallyinteresting relationship.
I do think, though, that has.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That would have to be a conversation before they pick
their class.
Absolutely in that like sessionzero stage of, because
otherwise somebody might bewanting to play a lawful evil
character who's worshiping a godof life, who's lawful good or
neutral good and then Be toldlater if it's not a good DM will
be.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
It would be like oh well, your magic fails, yeah,
and now suddenly they're out ofa character's actual like
capability very true, and Ithink that comes down to that
earlier discussion of yourtensions versus your actions,
because you could have an evilcharacter if you're coining it
just based on what they do, butthey're lawful, good on their
intentions and the gods alignwith their intentions, not with
(18:55):
their actions.
Um, neutrals, probably what Iconsider to be the trickiest
though, to play, because, unlikelawful and chaotic or good and
evil, which are very black andwhite neutrals, kind of
everything in between, and a bigquestion I find myself asking
(19:16):
when I create NPCs and or my owncharacter sheets, when I do get
to play on those rare occasions, I Asked myself all the time of
like, am I really neutral?
At what breaking point am I nolonger an evil character or a
good character, or a lawful andchaotic, like what?
What level of gray do I have tobe to truly be neutral?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So, that one, I think , depends with the level of what
part of your alignment isneutral.
Like, if you're a lawfulneutral, what that's going to
mean is going to be differentthan if you're like neutral good
.
Lawful neutral is going to befor following the laws Okay,
that's it.
But then, like a neutral goodis going to do the well, I'm
(20:00):
going to do whatever I can to dothe best for everyone around me
, which could either fall intolawful or chaotic, depending on.
You kind of need a little bit ofboth, or that room to well.
Just because I touch lawfulDoesn't mean I'm a lawful
character and that's and that'sreally true.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Um, a big challenge that I have always come with is
like I've played Neutral goodcharacters and neutral evil
characters, and those arechallenging in themselves, but
the one that I've never beenable to really wrap my head
around has been true neutral,because to me it's very hard to
play true neutral.
I would say it is either thehardest class of the second I'm
sorry, the hardest alignment ofthe second hardest alignment to
(20:39):
play because of the fact thatthere's really no Neutral ground
, like a lot of the times whenyou have to make those
polarizing decisions in acampaign, you're gonna make a
good or an evil one.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I don't think like this is might be a little bit of
like a spicy take, but I don'tthink true neutral should really
be an option Because of howthat just kind of for most
players what it ends up being isyou can do whatever you want
for whatever reason you want andit's fine.
Which is a chaotic, likeinnately that is chaotic of I'm
(21:12):
going to do what I want becauseI want to and that would be
chaotic, neutral, and I trulybelieve that.
I feel like, if you're gonna runa true neutral character, it
almost has to be like a deity orsomething, where they're just
watching, they don't participate, they just observe like I could
see for true neutral I think itshould could be a deity who's
just sitting back and watching,and even then sometimes it's a
(21:35):
little iffy because you havestuff like the like time gods
who they're neutral but they'represerving order, so they're law
, really lawful neutral, eventhough they aren't really
actually at the end of theyinteracting with anything.
But for like players, unlessyou're, it's like a Animal, like
a wolf, you're somehow playingjust like a straight monster
(21:57):
manual wolf.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
You can't really be true neutral like true neutral
would be is the only doingthings for Whatever reason
because even if you're followingthe law of survival, the
fittest, that's not beingneutral, that's that is
inherently a lawful thing, and Ithink the only god that I have
found that is really a trueneutral.
(22:20):
And he's not even classified asthat would be Ayo the creator
of the universe, because Ayoliterally made everything and
then said all right, I'm notgoing to touch anything, no time
, no nothing, I'm just going tosit back and vibe and we have no
idea what he's doing.
So like that character, I wouldsay, is a true neutral
character, because he madeeverything good and evil, but
now he's not doing anything atall.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So like that goes kind of to my like players can't
really be true neutral, becauseto be truly neutral in every
aspect would mean you'd have tonot actually be involved and
like only For combat, forinstance, you would only be Like
realistically able to attackthings that are threatening you
at some point, like I.
(23:02):
To me, survival of the fittestis like a natural law, but
because it's simply Surviving itgoes down to you're not doing
something because it's good orbad or lawful, chaotic, you're
doing it so you don't die.
So like animals for the mostpart, other than like dragons
who actually have some level ofsentience, are going to be be,
(23:23):
for the most part, true neutral.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
They're just going to be where they are and they're
going to be chilling there untilsomething comes into their
space and a thing that I Ireally do agree with you on that
, and and neutral, like I said,is probably the hardest thing to
play, because you have toreally have no dichotomy, you
have to have no wrong choice.
Um Would kind of be in thischaotic evil realm, which I
(23:50):
really wanted to talk about,because Chaotic evil is very
challenging to play, especiallyfor most new players, because
what they do is they just slapthe title chaotic neutral on a
character that all they want todo is kill everything in sight,
and that's not really whatchaotic evil is, to me at least.
(24:10):
And and you're free to, you'refree to correct me if you think
differently, but I definitelyhave that perspective.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
For chaotic, neutral.
I would almost say like, ifyou're just murder hobo hoboing,
that's chaotic, you're justkilling things to kill.
There's no like oh, it'sbecause it's good or because
it's bad, it's just it was there.
Whereas like to do, go towardschaotic evil would be Almost
your like.
Chaotic evil would have to becontextual.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I almost feel like the, the, the child that flips
over one specific stone becausethey know that the, that the
road builder, has OCD and he'sgonna freak out about it.
I would say that's like chaoticevil, just for like examples.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So it would be somebody like Kind of, if you're
going because lawful versuschaotic right, your government
is your lawful, your chaoticevil would be somebody who wants
to overthrow a governmentbecause it's going to cause pain
yeah and You're not gonnareally do that.
It's not gonna be.
You're like well, thisgovernment's bad.
I'm gonna beat it and get ridof it or this government's good
(25:13):
and I'm evil, dark lord, I'mgonna get rid of it and be in
charge now and definitely I.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I almost enjoy the kind of like naive, chaotic evil
character where they're like,well, I'm evil and this guy,
he's gonna go insane if henotices this one little change.
So I'm gonna go flip it for noother reason than to mess with
him.
And I think that character isenjoyable and fun to play.
(25:41):
And it's probably the best wayto play chaotic evil, because
when you're playing a chaoticEvil character, a big thing you
have to consider is the rest ofthe party.
You can't have a game whereeveryone hates you or the, or
your character is gonna die.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
As soon as you have a game where you have the party
member who everyone hates, thatparty member is going to be the
first to be oh well, I'm out ofhealing, I can't heal you right
now, or those like I'm going tobe less helpful towards you.
And then that person, even ifthey're like great person ever
in every other aspect andthey're just trying to play
(26:15):
something different, they'regoing to start getting
frustrated and then start takingit out on the rest of the party
because they can't play theircharacter when they're, you know
, at two hit points underclerics while I'm helping
somebody else over here and Ithink that's so true is like
when you're playing a chaoticevil, the almost the hardest
challenge is getting everybodyelse to be okay with the fact
that you're playing chaotic evil.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I mean, I've had that issue myself.
The last time I played achaotic evil character I played
a nine-year-old human becauseand that was just like, oh my
god, I'm going to steal thetorch and then I'm going to
accidentally trip it and and,just like inconvenience, the
party, half the party had nightvision.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
But the other half was like oh well, now I don't
have light people could laughabout it and like that's how I
like to play.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
It is where it's like the mischievous kind of evil
for a chaotic evil character,because then you're not making
enemies with the rest of theparty.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I think that's the only like reasonable way to do
it in a normal game.
The one exception to that beingis if you and your party decide
you want to do an evil campaign.
And you want to be the villainsthen that chaotic evil somebody
can do it and they can be trulychaotic evil of I'm going to
destroy things to destroy thembecause it's bad.
(27:29):
But if you're in like a partywith you have neutral good or
anything other than like evil,realistically you would have to
be in a party with no lawful orgood to really play a chaotic
evil, because if you have alawful, they're not gonna be
like lawful.
Evil is going to be your well,I'm gonna do this law thing to
it, cause as much pain aspossible.
(27:50):
It's gonna be your well, youdon't have the permit to do that
.
You don't have the permit toapply for that permit.
You don't have the permit toapply for that one either and go
down this train of ha ha, youdon't get to do what you want.
And even with that, they're notgonna want the chaotic person
in the party, because thechaotic person is just gonna be
like Burning yeah, and likethat's not.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Oftentimes like I see people using chaotic evil as an
excuse to just kill everythingin sight and unfortunately,
that's really not what the it'snot what it is meant to be.
I do, at least in my eyes,because other DMs can have their
opinions and I'd love to seepeople in Our groups kind of
talk about this, because it's avery complex Area to play and I
(28:36):
I hate when I see new playersjump in and have that horrible
experience where they're likeI'm gonna play this chaotic evil
character.
They spend all this time comingup with it and how they're
gonna fight and there's reallylike demon-like essence and
they're playing in an all-goodcampaign and then everybody
hates it and they have amiserable time.
I really think that chaoticevil is almost for more veteran
(28:58):
players and I Would almost liketo see the system changed a
little bit for D&D Kind of leadsme in.
My next point is like this islike you said, there's there's
this little block of nine thingsand everything doesn't really
fit in it and I think if theywere gonna change the whole
system, I would take out trueneutral, because it is so
(29:21):
challenging to play, if evenpossible, and I would really
love to see Changes at mostpeople's tables and I've already
started to implement thismyself, where we as DMs go out
of our way to write newdescriptions for these different
effects, because thedescriptions that are out there
are kind of challenging,especially for new players, to
(29:43):
really understand what it meansto be lawful or chaotic, what
means to be good or evil andwhere that gray zone is so for,
like if we were to change thesystem right?
I.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
These I mentioned earlier the system where it's
like you have your color chartfor magic, so you're, and you
pick two colors or three colorsor four colors, and you Take
those aspects of like I'm, ifI'm pure blue, for magic is like
knowledge and magic and that'sall what the goal is is you
(30:15):
aspire to be magical and smartand you can add that to
something like which usually,like knowledge, is an
order-based thing, but you canadd red, which is the chaos and
emotion, and you like that, yourinventors and your like chaotic
magic of I'm going to cast abig thing and see what it does,
(30:37):
and you kind of get that likelevel of you can have these
different aspects to yourpersonality, as opposed to I'm a
chaotic, good person, whichmeans I do crazy stuff for good
and it's a little too vague andbland, whereas if you go with
like, it's five colors and youcan combine them, that there's
tons of options there where youcan have this super diversified
(30:59):
system, but it's a littlecomplicated, it's a little weird
, so it's harder to get into.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I think that's where that that kind of a system
really struggles and where I dokind of like how D&D does it.
I just wish it was almost morelike a plus sign than an actual
square, because there's justthere's these Outliers that
don't feel natural andespecially they're not easy to
play, especially for newcharacters and Like the issues I
see, implementing the systemyou're talking about is it's got
(31:27):
this huge barrier for entry andespecially Right now, the time
we're recording this, boulder'sgate is still very, very new and
it's bringing a lot of peopleinto the tabletop RPG, and I
really especially, since Bouldergate didn't really touch on
Alignment yeah, like it has alittle bit in there.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
I know you haven't played it, but I've.
I've only made it a little bit,but there's no like you can be
good, you can be evil.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
You could be a good one second and evil the next
where it's like you don't haveit doesn't matter what your
alignment yeah and I think withD&D, because of the fact that
it's more of a creativity gameand we're creating our own
stories, I I feel like ourcharacters have to come to life
a little bit more to make thestories engaging.
I mean, if we think about it,half of this game is just people
sitting around a table andplaying with their imaginations,
(32:14):
and in a video game you've gotgraphics and other things to
keep you involved.
In order to keep that samelevel of retention and really
enjoy it, I feel like we have toput so much more creativity and
effort into it and have thesecomplex characters and
unfortunately, I think a lot ofthat is missed in the alignment.
And I'm very, very concernedand well, I'm concerned and
(32:35):
interested to see how people whoare coming from Baldur's Gate
are going to handle alignmentand creating these depth, these
high depth, nuanced characters.
And I don't know you've playedthe game more than I have what
are kind of your thoughts ofpeople transitioning over with
alignment?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So, I don't think there's a, there's not a
transition for alignment.
You just don't have it.
And now you do.
So, like, the people comingover are going to understand how
combat works.
They're going to understand how, like rolling to succeed on a
persuasion works.
They won't have, likephysically rolled the dice
because it's a game and it hasas a mechanic, but they're going
to kind of get those base ideas.
(33:12):
All of the role play and thelike actual character they will
need to is going to be a fullnew.
That's all they're going toneed to learn.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
So it's like you're moving that technical barrier
but not the like social barrierof the game and for me, a tool
that I would love to see builtagain would just be I wish we
had like two paragraph littleblurbs for each and every
different alignment, so that newplayers could kind of get a
(33:44):
grasp on, like, what differentideas for characters are, so
that we can have people go outof their way to kind of try
those new things and branch out,rather than these short little
blurbs of like, well, if you'relawful, you follow a set of
rules that's not as nuanced tome and I feel like that's
something that's going to makeit hard for these new players
transferring over versussomething where it's like, if
(34:05):
you are a lawful character,whether it's good or evil, there
is this set of boundaries thatyou're not willing to cross.
That could be, and then give usexamples and like explain
different ways that they can beapplied and that those resources
really aren't out there rightnow Like the only resources you
have for that is other peopleand if you're brand new, you're
(34:26):
not going to know where to lookfor those people.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You're not going to know the person who understands
that alignment.
Like a lawful, good charactercould be a like lone soul
fighter who is following a codeof like chivalry or something,
as opposed to following what thelaws of the land are Like.
You can have these differentideas of what lawful is within
(34:49):
the sphere, but those newplayers aren't going to have the
person who's going to be Okay.
So for your lawful character,you don't have to just follow
every single law to the letter.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, and I think that's kind of a good place for
us to cut off, because newplayers are definitely going to
have their set of challenges, asthose older players are going
to have the same time teachingthem.
That's going to be ourchallenge.
If you guys are interested inany of the discussions that we
have, if you're a new playerlooking to get into and find
some resources, we do have adiscord and as well as a website
(35:22):
, feel free to check out ourwebsite.
Our other podcasts will belinked on there and you can find
out some more information aboutus.
We have a group up on there andwe do have a discord, so if you
have questions, feel free toreach out to us through those
means and kind of collaborateand work together.
Thank you, you, you, you, you,you.
All right.
So this is going to be episodeone of our dungeon master
inspiration podcast.
What we're going to be doing iswe're going to be talking about
topics and how we can adjustthem to kind of fit games.
We're going to be talking withmultiple different people.
I'm going to be your primaryhost, Wyatt and I am Jay.
So our kind of our discussionfor today was alignment.
We were talking about it andthere's there's a lot of
(00:21):
controversy, especially with howa lot of people like to play
alignment.
A big thing that I personallyhave kind of an issue with is a
lot of the time it's treatedalmost like it's this strict law
that has to be followed byevery single character and you
can never deviate from that.
Personally, like I don't thinkthat that fits how normal people
(00:42):
act and I want to have moredepth than my characters, so
like I don't have issues withpeople breaking what their
character would do according totheir alignment.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
So to me, the the alignment system is very like,
not in depth enough for like anactual character person, like no
person is going to be the likelawful, stupid paladin who's
like.
Ah yes, we can't touch thegrass.
You touch the grass, I'm goingto cut your head off.
No one's going to do that.
But that's what lawful, good orlawful neutral technically is.
(01:13):
But so like to me it needs tobe a little more like
complicated out of four terms.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, I think that the the like nine terms that you
can grab out of the alignmentchart isn't a bad way to start a
character development.
I just think that a bigquestion that, like every DM,
has to ask themselves is are webasing alignment on initiative
or on the actions of the player?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So for me, like this is the my always take with, like
I always try to go more indepth with alignment for any
character I'm making.
I don't actually like use thelawful.
I use that as like the verybroad, we're doing lawful,
neutral, like they're going tofollow a rule set of like the
God, of what I, but like I enjoy.
There's a net alternate systemwhich is like based on the magic
(02:01):
color pie, where you have, likeyour blue, your blue white
characters would be likeknowledge and order or like
control, and where that's yourpriority, as opposed to like I'm
just following a law and I'mgood, and it gives that little
extra depth as to how you wouldactually act for it, as opposed
(02:21):
to just, well, I'm a good person.
What's my goal?
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Like for me personally, I take almost a
different approach of I likewhen my characters and as a DM,
this is really how I enforcealignment I think that
intentions are far moreimportant than the actual
actions of the player.
So because, at the end of theday, for me, if I see a lawful
good character and their lawfulgood is they're going to save as
(02:48):
many lives as possible andglorify their God for a paladin,
for example, and in order tosave 100,000 lives, they have to
do something horrible thatcharacter is going to do.
That it's the intention of theact.
Whereas I've heard of a lot ofDMs and I've even played in
campaigns where we kind of beentaken and my alignment's been
(03:11):
changed because I did somethingevil for a good app, for a good
intention, and I'm not sure thatas a DM, I like that
perspective.
I don't think it's a wrong one,but it's just not the flavor of
table that I want to have.
Yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
So this is like my big example, for like the
intentions and it's kind of alittle bit of intention and
action is like necromancers.
All necromancers are evil.
But what if you have anecromancer who's using the
death to do something good, like, for instance, you could have a
necromancer who's using thedead because, for whatever
(03:47):
reason, to take out a greaterevil Like this guy has, you know
, killed hundreds of likesoldiers.
They're just sitting there andyou might lose without them.
So sometimes that action ofdoing this evil act isn't a bad
thing in the end, for whatyou're going to call your goal
at the end of the day is anddefinitely I think that that's a
(04:11):
really good Stance to take.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
But I also can see where, if you want your actions
to be of the player, I wouldn'treally railroad the players into
.
Well, you chose to do a lawfulgood character, so now I'm gonna
make you only do lawful goodactions, but rather with an
action-based Alignment.
I would almost say that I wouldpersonally rather tell my
(04:37):
player hey, if you're gonna baseyour alignment on action, I
really want to see how yourcharacter interacts with
everybody and I really want you,thinking about that Beforehand
and during session zero, maybeplay out a test fight or a test
encounter or a puzzle and seehow that player Interprets their
character and then use those asyour foundation for that
(04:57):
alignment so that, especially ifit's a paladin or a cleric,
have them role, play theircharacter and then choose their
alignment and Find the Godthat's gonna best fit them after
that kind of test encounter.
Now a question that I've beenasked and I asked myself
oftentimes is how the bookdescribes chaotic is very, very
(05:21):
different from how I envision it, and so I oftentimes ask myself
Does a chaotic character justresist the rules to resist the
rules?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So for chaotic at least in my mind, always has
been the level of you're notnecessarily Crazy or doing
something like oh well, they sayI can't kill people, I'm gonna
go murder a hundred differentpeople.
It's more of the how I'm goingto go around my actions to
either for good or for evil.
So, like you could have achaotic good character who is
(05:55):
Doesn't care about what therules in the region is, it is
just going to do what is good,regardless of Whatever rules are
around them, as opposed tosomebody who would be like a
neutral, who is going to try tokind of hit that middle ground
up between being just what,screw the rules are.
I'm gonna do my thing is.
And then with the like otherside of it is the almost like
(06:20):
especially with like wild magic.
Wild magic, chaotic isn't goodor evil, but it I would argue
that it would be like a wildmagic almost has to be a chaotic
alignment because there's alevel of Whatever happens is
going to happen.
For my goal of good or evil orNeutral doesn't fit very well.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
But how I oftentimes find myself interpreting chaotic
is almost more in aself-serving fashion.
Lawful characters are gonnaalways do what's right, whereas
chaotic they're kind offollowing their whims.
And that's how I interpretchaotic personally, and I like
the mention of wild magic.
With wild magic I almost, if Iwas to play that character, I
(07:03):
would almost want to run aLawful character who has chaotic
magic for the dichotomy and theinternal struggle, and I think
that's something that's reallyinteresting about the
storytelling portion of V&D isthe fact that you can't have
Characters that innate traitsthat are given by the class can
have that dichotomy against thepersonality of the character.
(07:24):
Like I did play a necromancerwho was lawful good and that was
really interesting dichotomyfor me to experience and to kind
of try to have this charactergrapple with the reality that
they are Doing something evilbut for the right reasons.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah.
So like with the chaos Partingfor like with relation to the
rules, the chaos doesn't have tobe against specific rules, it's
just they have to be more likeon their own independent thought
and almost that likeanti-organizational method.
Not like I'm gonna blow up agovernment building because it's
(08:04):
a government building, but thethis group is being either for
or against my Group.
So like if you're, let's say,chaotic, good, and you have an
or a government that's just killeveryone who's in the way,
we're gonna call it a day.
A chaotic character would blowthem up, not because, well, the
rules say I shouldn't, butbecause it's to reach their end
(08:27):
of goodness, but I do.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I do find myself disagreeing a lot of the time
with people when they talk aboutAlignment and it's shifting
over time.
I don't like to forcibly moveplayers Alignments when they are
hard set on having a specificalignment, because that feels
like I'm almost railroadingplayers.
(08:51):
So what I like to do is I liketo see, based on how they act
and if their goal is to have anintention inside of themselves
for specific actions and towardsgood or towards evil, I like to
let my players kind of playthat out.
Now, obviously, if I have alawful, good character who's
just running around killingpeople to kill people, we're
(09:14):
gonna have a long conversationabout, well, why is that
character doing that?
Or maybe we should startlooking elsewhere For the
inspiration for how they shouldbe acting.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
So for that, the for me at least, the biggest spot
that comes in is like lawfulcharacters who like, who don't
follow the legal laws.
So to some degree it depends onhow you're interpreting what
your lawful good is.
Like a good example, I likepaladins and clerics might be
lawful good because their godhas this code, like most
(09:45):
paladins should realistically belawful what.
That doesn't necessarily meanthey're going to follow their go
into town and be like, yes, I'mgonna follow every single rule
to the letter, but it means theyhave this oath and that is
their code that they are goingto follow no matter what, which.
Then you have warlocks alsorealistically should be Lawful
(10:06):
to a degree because they havethat same kind of dynamic of
they have to do this forwhatever their code is from
their deal.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So something that I personally Kind of came up with
when I was I was planningthrough some like general things
for us to talk through for this.
I Really liked the idea that Icame up with that you start out
every character in a sessionwithout an alignment and so over
the first three sessions youare playing your character,
(10:37):
truly think about where theycame from, who they are and
really role-playing into it.
And then After that thirdsession, we start talking about
okay, well, as your characterdoing this for good reasons, are
they doing it for bad reasons?
And kind of letting thatcharacter have some life Before
you just slap a title on it.
Because to me I think it's very, very Almost stifling to choose
(11:00):
the alignment so early in thecharacter building process,
because you can have charactersthat more for the first one, two
, three, four, five sessions youreally don't know how that
character is gonna play,especially in the group, because
you can be a lawful, goodcharacter and hand be in a party
.
That's just all Evil charactersand slowly you're gonna morph
(11:22):
that character because they'reeventually they're gonna become
a neutral or an evil, otherwisethey're gonna leave the group
and you're gonna have to startover again.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
I, yeah, so I Think part of that is also like the
discussion at the start what isour like groups overall Idea of
what do we want to be?
Because otherwise you're gonnahave that person wants to play a
good character and thenbasically feel like, well, I
can't play because Everyone elsewants to go Help the big bad
(11:49):
guy.
Well, I want to go against them.
So you kind of have to havethat.
There's a bit of that earlydiscussion of what is our group
goal going to be.
And then, obviously, becauseyou're gonna have to make the
put the party together andeveryone's gonna have to be a
little different, there canstill be that difference within,
like they're good and evil, butit almost has to be smaller
(12:13):
than overall Goals and has to behow they act on the day-to-day
or with the people around.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So I was doing my research to be better educated
for this kind of discussion anda big thing that I saw that Was
mentioned a lot of times on alot of DM forms and a lot on
player forms, was this idea ofholy magic casters and it kind
of Resonated with me and broughtme back to this question of
Should a holy magic caster haveto share an alignment with their
(12:44):
god, like if I'm a lawful goodcharacter and I'm worshiping a
lawful evil character a lawfulevil god that is, but I don't
I'm not aware that they'relawful evil that almost falls
into that fiend realm and thatlike demon realm where they're
trying to trick you and takeyour soul, like you would see a
lot in warlocks on occasion.
(13:05):
But with other holy magiccasters like paladins and
clerics, what if a lawful goodcharacters worshiping a god like
Taren?
If they're worshiping Taren,the god of war, is he actually
Gonna bestow any magic upon thembecause they're so vastly
different in goals andideologies?
Speaker 2 (13:24):
so this is actually a Connection I've seen is there's
a character in Baldur's Gate 3whose name is will.
He's the warlock of the partybut his like epitaph is the
blade of the frontier.
He's a hero.
He's like a folk hero to, sohe's a good person trying to do
good things.
So he's like neutral good orlawful good or something like
(13:47):
that.
There's not really hardalignments in the game, but his
patron is a demon, so they'regoing to be evil.
So for like, especially withlike warlocks and clerics can
kind of hit the same spot of howthey use their magic, like, yes
, their god might be evil, butthey can be using that evil
(14:08):
magic for something good aswhich, whether or not that means
their god doesn't like them oris trying to screw them over at
some point.
Like, for instance, thatcharacter at some point has the
option depending on how he acts,he can choose to go against his
oath to his patron and thenbecause he's being a decent
(14:30):
person by going against his oath.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
He gets punished for it, and it's almost that level
of they should be able to bewhatever they want to be, but
there's some piece of theirpatron or god that's going to
affect them because of theirchoices see, and and while that
has an interesting like attitudeand perspective on it, I myself
, as a DM and inclined to say,if you're a lawful Like, let's
(14:56):
say you're a lawful evilcharacter worshipping the lawful
good god of life, I'd almostwant to say that, because of
your actions, that lawful goodgod Isn't going to bestow magic
upon you to let you do evilthings in their name.
And that's where I kind of Ikind of have this challenge in
my mind about it, because,especially like, evil gods a lot
(15:19):
of times will still bestowpower because they want to
corrupt, but that's not alwaystrue with good gods.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It's a difference between what type of class they
are, because I would art, Iwould put the argument of
warlocks are also, in their ownway, a holy caster.
For warlocks it should bewhatever they want to be.
Their patron is going to punishthem for going against what
their whims are, whereas withthe cleric you almost have to
make sure whatever you'rewanting to do and your god have
(15:46):
to align, because if I want toplay a chaotic evil character
and I'm worshiping Bahama Bahama, it's not gonna give me
anything if I'm going out andjust doing whatever I want,
killing everyone in my path.
So, like for clerics, I thinkyou have to be aligned with your
god in some way.
Like you could be a chaoticgood character with a lawful
(16:10):
good god and the god might stillgive you something because
you're doing good.
Or If you're a lawful evil, youmight be doing something if
you're doing somethingbeneficial.
So if you're a lawful evilcleric and you're like a good
example is like the like Lawsector you could be a lawful
(16:32):
evil character in that area,like dynamic of area, but your
lawful good god might still giveyou something because you are
still executing the law in thisOrder of.
This is what needs to be done,even if the intent is to harm.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
At the end of the day , and I think that that really
just comes down to like aftertalking about it, I really am
starting to think that kind ofcomes down to the situation
Because if you are worshipingBahama, for example, and you
You're a lawful, evil characterthat wants to kill all human
race or all dragons let's sayall dragons, because he's a god
(17:11):
of dragons I Don't think hewould bestow matter on you to do
that.
But if you are inherentlycausing good through your evil
actions, I think that God mightstill choose to give it to you.
I Think it's a choice on theperspective of the god more than
the player, whereas with apaladin, I mean, you could have
an oath to anything.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Paladins oath could just be to their partner or to
their spirit of their like.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
If their parents died , they could be making an oath,
and the I'm going to do right byyou and so this, this kind of
discussion, really does lean onclerics and Warlocks almost
exclusively, and, like you said,warlocks, you're just gonna get
punished by your patron, likethat's gonna be a miserable
experience.
But with a cleric I wouldalmost be so interested to see a
(18:01):
lawful evil character who triesto cast a spell for evil means
from a good God and it justfizzles because it doesn't work.
I think that would be a reallyinteresting relationship.
I do think, though, that has.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
That would have to be a conversation before they pick
their class.
Absolutely in that like sessionzero stage of, because
otherwise somebody might bewanting to play a lawful evil
character who's worshiping a godof life, who's lawful good or
neutral good and then Be toldlater if it's not a good DM will
be.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
It would be like oh well, your magic fails, yeah,
and now suddenly they're out ofa character's actual like
capability very true, and Ithink that comes down to that
earlier discussion of yourtensions versus your actions,
because you could have an evilcharacter if you're coining it
just based on what they do, butthey're lawful, good on their
intentions and the gods alignwith their intentions, not with
(18:55):
their actions.
Um, neutrals, probably what Iconsider to be the trickiest
though, to play, because, unlikelawful and chaotic or good and
evil, which are very black andwhite neutrals, kind of
everything in between, and a bigquestion I find myself asking
(19:16):
when I create NPCs and or my owncharacter sheets, when I do get
to play on those rare occasions, I Asked myself all the time of
like, am I really neutral?
At what breaking point am I nolonger an evil character or a
good character, or a lawful andchaotic, like what?
What level of gray do I have tobe to truly be neutral?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So, that one, I think , depends with the level of what
part of your alignment isneutral.
Like, if you're a lawfulneutral, what that's going to
mean is going to be differentthan if you're like neutral good
.
Lawful neutral is going to befor following the laws Okay,
that's it.
But then, like a neutral goodis going to do the well, I'm
(20:00):
going to do whatever I can to dothe best for everyone around me
, which could either fall intolawful or chaotic, depending on.
You kind of need a little bit ofboth, or that room to well.
Just because I touch lawfulDoesn't mean I'm a lawful
character and that's and that'sreally true.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Um, a big challenge that I have always come with is
like I've played Neutral goodcharacters and neutral evil
characters, and those arechallenging in themselves, but
the one that I've never beenable to really wrap my head
around has been true neutral,because to me it's very hard to
play true neutral.
I would say it is either thehardest class of the second I'm
sorry, the hardest alignment ofthe second hardest alignment to
(20:39):
play because of the fact thatthere's really no Neutral ground
, like a lot of the times whenyou have to make those
polarizing decisions in acampaign, you're gonna make a
good or an evil one.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I don't think like this is might be a little bit of
like a spicy take, but I don'tthink true neutral should really
be an option Because of howthat just kind of for most
players what it ends up being isyou can do whatever you want
for whatever reason you want andit's fine.
Which is a chaotic, likeinnately that is chaotic of I'm
(21:12):
going to do what I want becauseI want to and that would be
chaotic, neutral, and I trulybelieve that.
I feel like, if you're gonna runa true neutral character, it
almost has to be like a deity orsomething, where they're just
watching, they don't participate, they just observe like I could
see for true neutral I think itshould could be a deity who's
just sitting back and watching,and even then sometimes it's a
(21:35):
little iffy because you havestuff like the like time gods
who they're neutral but they'represerving order, so they're law
, really lawful neutral, eventhough they aren't really
actually at the end of theyinteracting with anything.
But for like players, unlessyou're, it's like a Animal, like
a wolf, you're somehow playingjust like a straight monster
(21:57):
manual wolf.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
You can't really be true neutral like true neutral
would be is the only doingthings for Whatever reason
because even if you're followingthe law of survival, the
fittest, that's not beingneutral, that's that is
inherently a lawful thing, and Ithink the only god that I have
found that is really a trueneutral.
(22:20):
And he's not even classified asthat would be Ayo the creator
of the universe, because Ayoliterally made everything and
then said all right, I'm notgoing to touch anything, no time
, no nothing, I'm just going tosit back and vibe and we have no
idea what he's doing.
So like that character, I wouldsay, is a true neutral
character, because he madeeverything good and evil, but
now he's not doing anything atall.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So like that goes kind of to my like players can't
really be true neutral, becauseto be truly neutral in every
aspect would mean you'd have tonot actually be involved and
like only For combat, forinstance, you would only be Like
realistically able to attackthings that are threatening you
at some point, like I.
(23:02):
To me, survival of the fittestis like a natural law, but
because it's simply Surviving itgoes down to you're not doing
something because it's good orbad or lawful, chaotic, you're
doing it so you don't die.
So like animals for the mostpart, other than like dragons
who actually have some level ofsentience, are going to be be,
(23:23):
for the most part, true neutral.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
They're just going to be where they are and they're
going to be chilling there untilsomething comes into their
space and a thing that I Ireally do agree with you on that
, and and neutral, like I said,is probably the hardest thing to
play, because you have toreally have no dichotomy, you
have to have no wrong choice.
Um Would kind of be in thischaotic evil realm, which I
(23:50):
really wanted to talk about,because Chaotic evil is very
challenging to play, especiallyfor most new players, because
what they do is they just slapthe title chaotic neutral on a
character that all they want todo is kill everything in sight,
and that's not really whatchaotic evil is, to me at least.
(24:10):
And and you're free to, you'refree to correct me if you think
differently, but I definitelyhave that perspective.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
For chaotic, neutral.
I would almost say like, ifyou're just murder hobo hoboing,
that's chaotic, you're justkilling things to kill.
There's no like oh, it'sbecause it's good or because
it's bad, it's just it was there.
Whereas like to do, go towardschaotic evil would be Almost
your like.
Chaotic evil would have to becontextual.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I almost feel like the, the, the child that flips
over one specific stone becausethey know that the, that the
road builder, has OCD and he'sgonna freak out about it.
I would say that's like chaoticevil, just for like examples.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So it would be somebody like Kind of, if you're
going because lawful versuschaotic right, your government
is your lawful, your chaoticevil would be somebody who wants
to overthrow a governmentbecause it's going to cause pain
yeah and You're not gonnareally do that.
It's not gonna be.
You're like well, thisgovernment's bad.
I'm gonna beat it and get ridof it or this government's good
(25:13):
and I'm evil, dark lord, I'mgonna get rid of it and be in
charge now and definitely I.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I almost enjoy the kind of like naive, chaotic evil
character where they're like,well, I'm evil and this guy,
he's gonna go insane if henotices this one little change.
So I'm gonna go flip it for noother reason than to mess with
him.
And I think that character isenjoyable and fun to play.
(25:41):
And it's probably the best wayto play chaotic evil, because
when you're playing a chaoticEvil character, a big thing you
have to consider is the rest ofthe party.
You can't have a game whereeveryone hates you or the, or
your character is gonna die.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
As soon as you have a game where you have the party
member who everyone hates, thatparty member is going to be the
first to be oh well, I'm out ofhealing, I can't heal you right
now, or those like I'm going tobe less helpful towards you.
And then that person, even ifthey're like great person ever
in every other aspect andthey're just trying to play
(26:15):
something different, they'regoing to start getting
frustrated and then start takingit out on the rest of the party
because they can't play theircharacter when they're, you know
, at two hit points underclerics while I'm helping
somebody else over here and Ithink that's so true is like
when you're playing a chaoticevil, the almost the hardest
challenge is getting everybodyelse to be okay with the fact
that you're playing chaotic evil.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
I mean, I've had that issue myself.
The last time I played achaotic evil character I played
a nine-year-old human becauseand that was just like, oh my
god, I'm going to steal thetorch and then I'm going to
accidentally trip it and and,just like inconvenience, the
party, half the party had nightvision.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
But the other half was like oh well, now I don't
have light people could laughabout it and like that's how I
like to play.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
It is where it's like the mischievous kind of evil
for a chaotic evil character,because then you're not making
enemies with the rest of theparty.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
I think that's the only like reasonable way to do
it in a normal game.
The one exception to that beingis if you and your party decide
you want to do an evil campaign.
And you want to be the villainsthen that chaotic evil somebody
can do it and they can be trulychaotic evil of I'm going to
destroy things to destroy thembecause it's bad.
(27:29):
But if you're in like a partywith you have neutral good or
anything other than like evil,realistically you would have to
be in a party with no lawful orgood to really play a chaotic
evil, because if you have alawful, they're not gonna be
like lawful.
Evil is going to be your well,I'm gonna do this law thing to
it, cause as much pain aspossible.
(27:50):
It's gonna be your well, youdon't have the permit to do that
.
You don't have the permit toapply for that permit.
You don't have the permit toapply for that one either and go
down this train of ha ha, youdon't get to do what you want.
And even with that, they're notgonna want the chaotic person
in the party, because thechaotic person is just gonna be
like Burning yeah, and likethat's not.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Oftentimes like I see people using chaotic evil as an
excuse to just kill everythingin sight and unfortunately,
that's really not what the it'snot what it is meant to be.
I do, at least in my eyes,because other DMs can have their
opinions and I'd love to seepeople in Our groups kind of
talk about this, because it's avery complex Area to play and I
(28:36):
I hate when I see new playersjump in and have that horrible
experience where they're likeI'm gonna play this chaotic evil
character.
They spend all this time comingup with it and how they're
gonna fight and there's reallylike demon-like essence and
they're playing in an all-goodcampaign and then everybody
hates it and they have amiserable time.
I really think that chaoticevil is almost for more veteran
(28:58):
players and I Would almost liketo see the system changed a
little bit for D&D Kind of leadsme in.
My next point is like this islike you said, there's there's
this little block of nine thingsand everything doesn't really
fit in it and I think if theywere gonna change the whole
system, I would take out trueneutral, because it is so
(29:21):
challenging to play, if evenpossible, and I would really
love to see Changes at mostpeople's tables and I've already
started to implement thismyself, where we as DMs go out
of our way to write newdescriptions for these different
effects, because thedescriptions that are out there
are kind of challenging,especially for new players, to
(29:43):
really understand what it meansto be lawful or chaotic, what
means to be good or evil andwhere that gray zone is so for,
like if we were to change thesystem right?
I.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
These I mentioned earlier the system where it's
like you have your color chartfor magic, so you're, and you
pick two colors or three colorsor four colors, and you Take
those aspects of like I'm, ifI'm pure blue, for magic is like
knowledge and magic and that'sall what the goal is is you
(30:15):
aspire to be magical and smartand you can add that to
something like which usually,like knowledge, is an
order-based thing, but you canadd red, which is the chaos and
emotion, and you like that, yourinventors and your like chaotic
magic of I'm going to cast abig thing and see what it does,
(30:37):
and you kind of get that likelevel of you can have these
different aspects to yourpersonality, as opposed to I'm a
chaotic, good person, whichmeans I do crazy stuff for good
and it's a little too vague andbland, whereas if you go with
like, it's five colors and youcan combine them, that there's
tons of options there where youcan have this super diversified
(30:59):
system, but it's a littlecomplicated, it's a little weird
, so it's harder to get into.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I think that's where that that kind of a system
really struggles and where I dokind of like how D&D does it.
I just wish it was almost morelike a plus sign than an actual
square, because there's justthere's these Outliers that
don't feel natural andespecially they're not easy to
play, especially for newcharacters and Like the issues I
see, implementing the systemyou're talking about is it's got
(31:27):
this huge barrier for entry andespecially Right now, the time
we're recording this, boulder'sgate is still very, very new and
it's bringing a lot of peopleinto the tabletop RPG, and I
really especially, since Bouldergate didn't really touch on
Alignment yeah, like it has alittle bit in there.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
I know you haven't played it, but I've.
I've only made it a little bit,but there's no like you can be
good, you can be evil.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
You could be a good one second and evil the next
where it's like you don't haveit doesn't matter what your
alignment yeah and I think withD&D, because of the fact that
it's more of a creativity gameand we're creating our own
stories, I I feel like ourcharacters have to come to life
a little bit more to make thestories engaging.
I mean, if we think about it,half of this game is just people
sitting around a table andplaying with their imaginations,
(32:14):
and in a video game you've gotgraphics and other things to
keep you involved.
In order to keep that samelevel of retention and really
enjoy it, I feel like we have toput so much more creativity and
effort into it and have thesecomplex characters and
unfortunately, I think a lot ofthat is missed in the alignment.
And I'm very, very concernedand well, I'm concerned and
(32:35):
interested to see how people whoare coming from Baldur's Gate
are going to handle alignmentand creating these depth, these
high depth, nuanced characters.
And I don't know you've playedthe game more than I have what
are kind of your thoughts ofpeople transitioning over with
alignment?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
So, I don't think there's a, there's not a
transition for alignment.
You just don't have it.
And now you do.
So, like, the people comingover are going to understand how
combat works.
They're going to understand how, like rolling to succeed on a
persuasion works.
They won't have, likephysically rolled the dice
because it's a game and it hasas a mechanic, but they're going
to kind of get those base ideas.
(33:12):
All of the role play and thelike actual character they will
need to is going to be a fullnew.
That's all they're going toneed to learn.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
So it's like you're moving that technical barrier
but not the like social barrierof the game and for me, a tool
that I would love to see builtagain would just be I wish we
had like two paragraph littleblurbs for each and every
different alignment, so that newplayers could kind of get a
(33:44):
grasp on, like, what differentideas for characters are, so
that we can have people go outof their way to kind of try
those new things and branch out,rather than these short little
blurbs of like, well, if you'relawful, you follow a set of
rules that's not as nuanced tome and I feel like that's
something that's going to makeit hard for these new players
transferring over versussomething where it's like, if
(34:05):
you are a lawful character,whether it's good or evil, there
is this set of boundaries thatyou're not willing to cross.
That could be, and then give usexamples and like explain
different ways that they can beapplied and that those resources
really aren't out there rightnow Like the only resources you
have for that is other peopleand if you're brand new, you're
(34:26):
not going to know where to lookfor those people.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You're not going to know the person who understands
that alignment.
Like a lawful, good charactercould be a like lone soul
fighter who is following a codeof like chivalry or something,
as opposed to following what thelaws of the land are Like.
You can have these differentideas of what lawful is within
(34:49):
the sphere, but those newplayers aren't going to have the
person who's going to be Okay.
So for your lawful character,you don't have to just follow
every single law to the letter.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, and I think that's kind of a good place for
us to cut off, because newplayers are definitely going to
have their set of challenges, asthose older players are going
to have the same time teachingthem.
That's going to be ourchallenge.
If you guys are interested inany of the discussions that we
have, if you're a new playerlooking to get into and find
some resources, we do have adiscord and as well as a website
(35:22):
, feel free to check out ourwebsite.
Our other podcasts will belinked on there and you can find
out some more information aboutus.
We have a group up on there andwe do have a discord, so if you
have questions, feel free toreach out to us through those
means and kind of collaborateand work together.
Thank you, you, you, you, you,you.
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