June 6, 2021 • 42 mins
Today I'm doing something different. I'm doing back-to-back double-author interviews in celebration of Women's Fiction Day. This podcast is the first of the double-author interview shows focusing on the diversity of stories that make up Women’s Fiction. A reminder that Women’s Fiction Day is June 8, 2021.
The Women’s Fiction Writer’s Association is planning an entire day of events, getting to know authors, some great deals on books and some nice giveaway prizes. To learn more, check out the link to the WFWA. I also have a full page of information on my website at: https://maggielynch.com/wfday2021.
Let me introduce you to the two women I’ll be talking with today.
ERIN BARTELS is the award-winning author of We Hope for Better Things—a 2020 Michigan Notable Book, winner of the 2020 Star Award from the Women’s Fiction Writers Association in both the debut and general fiction categories, and a 2019 Christy Award finalist—The Words between Us—a 2020 Christy Award finalist—and All That We Carried. Her short story “This Elegant Ruin” was a finalist in The Saturday Evening Post 2014 Great American Fiction Contest. Her poems have been published by The Lyric and The East Lansing Poetry Attack. A member of the Capital City Writers Association and the Women’s Fiction Writers Association, she is former features editor of WFWA’s Write On! magazine and current director of the annual WFWA Writers Retreat in Albuquerque, New Mexico. You can learn more about Erin on her website: https://erinbartels.com
LYN LIAO BUTLER was born in Taiwan and moved to the States when she was seven. In her past and present lives, she has been: a concert pianist, a professional ballet and modern dancer, a gym and fitness studio owner, a certified personal trainer and fitness instructor, an RYT-200 hour certified yoga instructor, a purse designer and most recently, author of multi-cultural fiction. Her mother swears she was not a Tiger Mom to Lyn. Lyn came about her over-achieving all by herself. Her debut novel, A Tiger Mom's Tale, releases July 5, 2021. Already advanced reviews are stellar. Her second novel, Red Thread of Fate, is complete and set to release February 2022. You can learn more about Lyn and keep up with her new books at https://lynliaobutler.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Maggie Lynch (00:14):
Welcome to Dust Jackets
Authors. Today I'm doing a verydifferent show than I usually
do. Instead of one author, I'minterviewing two. They're both
women's fiction writers. AndI've gotten to know them through
the women's fiction writersAssociation. We're doing two
sets of these interviews. Onewith these two authors, and
(00:35):
another with another two lateron. And we're doing this in
celebration of women's fictionday, which comes June 8. Very
soon.
So, let me introduce you to thetwo women I have on the show
today. Erin Bartels is an awardwinning novelist currently with
three books completed. Her debutnovel, We Hope for Better
(00:56):
Things, was a 2020 Michigannotable book, a winner of the
2020 Star Award from the Women'sFiction Writers Association, and
the 2019 Christy awardfinalists. Her second novel, The
Words Between Us, was also a2020 Christy award finalist. Her
third novel, All That We Carry,just came out in January of this
(01:20):
year. I expect, given her trackrecord, we'll probably be seeing
some more awards mentioned forthat one. She's also a poet and
a short story writer.
Lyn Liao Butler's debut novel,The Tiger Moms Tale, was
scheduled to already be out; butthe pandemic changed that. It
will now release July 6th. I cantell you advance reviews are
(01:45):
stellar, so you might as wellget your pre-order in now. Her
second book, Red Thread of Fate,is also available in pre-order
with a release date of February8, 2022. Lyn's day job is very
different from writing. She's aFitness Studio owner, where
she's a personal trainer, afitness instructor, and a yoga
(02:07):
instructor. So, as you can see,we have two powerhouse women
with us today. So my firstquestion for each of you is:
When you started writing, didyou know that you were writing
women's fiction? Or did youwrite what you felt like writing
and then realized it fits intothe women's fiction category?
(02:27):
Why don't we start with you,Lyn.
Lyn Liao Butler (02:30):
I had no idea what women's fiction was when I
started writing. I just startedwriting in 2015. It was not
anything I ever thought I wasever going to do. Because it's
...You see, I used to be aballet dancer in New York City.
And now a fitness instructor.
But when I moved out of thecity, up only like an hour north
of the city, everybody thought Iwas living in the country. And
(02:50):
they wanted to know what else dowe do in the country. So I
started a blog, just to keeppeople updated. And that first
book came from the blog posts.
So I had no idea anything aboutgenre. I didn't know anything. I
didn't even know that term,Women's Fiction. I just wrote
this book that it just kind ofcame out of me. And then as I
did research, I realized (03:10):
You know what? It fits into that
women's fiction genre. So that'swhere I learned that it's
women's fiction.
Maggie Lynch (03:18):
Yeah, I think that's a very common story,
actually. How about you, Erin?
Erin Bartels (03:23):
Yeah, um, well, my nine-to-five job has been in
publishing for nearly 20 years.
So I was quite cognizant ofdifferent genres and how you
market a book and how you needto find some way to put it in a
genre so that you can find a wayto sell it. But when I was
writing, I didn't feel I waswriting it purposefully to be
women's fiction. I think becauseit centered on female
(03:48):
characters. My first book hadthree timelines, three female
protagonists. And it certainlywas not romance. It was part
historical fiction and partcontemporary. I think that the
only thing that seems like itfit was women's fiction. And I
feel like, if it had been maleprotagonists, or even a male
author, it would have just beenfiction. Right? Yeah. I do think
(04:09):
I thought of it as an upmarketbook, because it wasn't really
commercial, but it wasn't reallyliterary. So somewhere in
between there, and it's a goodBook Club, book. And it seems
like women's fiction fits mostbook club books along those
lines. I think, because theyhave a lot of issues that people
want to talk about, a lot ofthings to unpack. And I think
(04:31):
that they just really connectwith Book Club readers who are
primarily women.
Maggie Lynch (04:38):
I can tell you in my book club, 90% of the books
we read are women's fiction.
It's absolutely true. So, I'dlike to get a little bit more
into each of your books. I'dlike to start with you, Erin. It
seemed it's funny that you saidupmarket fiction because, having
not read your books, you know,just looking at the blurbs and
(04:58):
the reviews that you have, thatwas the first thing I thought of
was upmarket fiction. And boththe blurbs and the cover designs
make them feel very similar,although they are very different
stories. And one of the themes,and again just based on the
descriptions and reviews, whatseems to be a thread was kind of
(05:18):
that concept of you can't runaway from the past. So you can
either say, Maggie, you have noidea what it's about, or verify
that. But I just wonder, youknow, what is it that draws you
to that theme? If it's true. Andif there are, is there another
theme that you think is actuallymore important in these three
(05:39):
books that you have out now?
Erin Bartels (05:43):
I think that you're right in a way that they
all are dealing with somethingin the past, whether it's in the
long gone past, or somebody'schildhood or something like
that. And I think the thing thatinterests me about considering
people's past--now I have anextremely boring life with a
very vanilla past. So I don'thave an interesting past that
(06:06):
I'm drawing from any of this.
But I'm, I've always beeninterested in kind of cause and
effect. Whether it's on a largescale, like, you know, a riot
doesn't happen out of nowhere. Awar doesn't happen out of
nowhere. There had to be eventsand things leading to this. And
I think that's true on a smallscale in everyone's life. You
are the collection of all thethings that have happened to
you. And you can't make them nothave happened. And they develop
(06:30):
you into the person you are now.
And the person you are now dealswith challenges and
relationships and things in acertain way because of your
past. So I'm very interested inhow the things that happened to
us, form us into the people weare and how that affects our
(06:51):
relationships with other peopleand our own inner selves and the
way we see ourselves. So I thinkthat was an astute observation,
even not having read them, theyabsolutely do focus on how the
past. Even if there's pain, andeven if there's negative things,
you can grow from that. And youcan become better. And I think
(07:16):
it's instead of bemoaning whathappens to us, it's using it to
become a stronger, betterperson.
Maggie Lynch (07:24):
I agree with that so much. You know, I think that
the past... as they say, if youdon't understand history, it
will continue to repeat itself.
And I think it's the same aboutour past as well. And there's a
lot of books that deal with thepast. But it just was really
interesting to me when they'revery different stories, from
what I can tell, but that was athread. Yeah. Lyn,
(07:45):
interestingly, your books alsodeal with the past in some way,
but in a very different contextin that, it seems--again, not
having read them being asthey're not out yet--that family
dynamics play a really criticalrole in both of yours, and also
in forming an identity from twovery different cultures. As most
(08:10):
of us know, cultures are verymuch driven by the past, by our
ancestors. So can you talk aboutyour characters and the road to
identity, and how their culturesand their past causes such
difficulty.
Lyn Liao Butler (08:29):
So I was born in Taiwan, and moved here to the
states when I was seven. So Iwas basically brought up here.
But, because I was born there, Icould still speak the language.
I speak Mandarin and Taiwanese.
And my parents are, you know,from Taiwan. And it was hard
growing up here because on theoutside I look Asian and
Taiwanese; but on the inside, Ifelt like I was American. So it
(08:49):
was always that pull, like whenI'm home I'm trying to be the
good, like the good Taiwanesegirl, you know, who obeys the
parents and respects elders anddoes well at school and, you
know, does a million things. Andthen on the outside, you know,
at school, I'd be like theAmerican me. And it was just
really hard to figure out who Iwas. Because I always felt like
(09:10):
I was playing a part. Whetherit's at school or at home,
because I didn't fit in, youknow.
I, we, actually lived in a verypredominantly white neighborhood
when we moved here. And so Iwent to a school where I was
only one of like, maybe three,like a handful of Asian people.
So I wanted to look like NellieOlson from Little House on the
(09:32):
Prairie with the boingy curls, Icall them. I thought that was
the ideal, like I wanted curlyhair, curls that you could go
boing. And I didn't want blackhair. I want blonde hair. So
when I started writing, youknow, obviously now as an adult,
I've managed to marry the twotogether and kind of find where
I belong in this world. But whenI started writing, that's just a
(09:56):
theme that always runs through.
I think probably almost all mybooks so far is just searching
for identity, whether you're aTaiwanese American or you were
born here, but still having todeal with it. And that's why I
created Alexa who is my maincharacter in the Tiger Moms
Tale. She is actually halfTaiwanese and half white. Her
mom is white, her father wasTaiwanese. But she was brought
(10:17):
up with her white family. So shespends her whole life with a
blonde family. Her stepfather'sblonde. Her half sister is also
blonde, like her parents. And soshe's doesn't really fit in.
I've always wondered, what wouldit be like to look Asian on the
outside, but really be broughtup in a white American family.
And that's where she came from.
(10:42):
And then, you know, having herto go search for her past and
her identity. I guess it's kindof like, you know, that's how I
was trying to like, figure outhow I found my heritage. And it
kind of runs through, it's atheme that runs through all my
books. It either takes placeinternationally, like here in
the States and also in Taiwan,and China, or there's a lot of
(11:05):
cultural references.
Maggie Lynch (11:09):
That's really interesting, to me it's a very
interesting journey. And I amgoing to be really interested in
reading your books. I have a lotof friends who have adopted
Asian babies, who are white, andthere is a, you know, they do
struggle, particularly if you'reliving in an all white area,
which most of Oregon is, I haveto say.
Lyn Liao Butler (11:33):
My son is actually adopted from China. And
we know a lot of people who arewhite and adopted, you know, a
Chinese baby. And we kept intouch with them and friends of
them. So my second book, RedThread of Fate, is actually
based on that journey. So theydo go to China to adopt a child.
Maggie Lynch (11:50):
So, Lyn, it sounds like you are writing from your
personal experience right now.
Lyn Liao Butler (11:56):
Yeah, I'm taking stuff from my life. But
all those stories are completelymade up like Erin does. I like
to make up things for mycharacters, like stuff that I
would normally not do. But thebasis is from my background.
Maggie Lynch (12:11):
Well, and I think that's true of most writers. I
mean, if nothing else, we writeabout emotions that we
understand and that we'veexperienced. So, speaking of
characters, thank you for thatgreat segue. Erin, all of your
reviewers talk about yourcharacters, and how real they
are and how much they relate tothem. So I'd really like to know
(12:32):
how you approach writing them.
Are they composites of peopleyou know, or are they developed,
you know, to serve specificthings in your stories, specific
themes or types or is itsomething in between,
Erin Bartels (12:45):
I feel like it's not quite either, I, I have very
rarely thought of a real person.
When writing a character, I canthink of one for the my next
book that's going to be comingout. There's one character based
on a real person.
They're not quiteintroduced to serve the plot,
(13:08):
either. I'm not 100% sure howthey all materialize. But I
think that a lot of it has to dowith the things that I, as a
writer, or I, as a person, feellike I need to deal with or I
need to think about this. I wantto think through this issue. I
(13:29):
want to deal with this feelingor whatever. I think they arise
from that sort of swill ofemotion and personal history,
and then they're never me. Butthey're always going to be
addressing things that I amconcerned about, or I am
interested in. And, as you youdevelop that main character, the
(13:55):
people who come into their livescome into their lives as people
who are going to be challengesto them, or people who are going
to support them, or people whodon't understand them, all these
different things. And I feellike they just kind of
materialize out of the theprocess of writing, because we
have all of those people in ourlives. And those people exist, I
(14:19):
guess, as types in a way. ButI'm not looking for like, Okay,
I need a sidekick here. Or, youknow, I need a wise old man here
or something like that. So Ireally don't have a great answer
for that.
I think that the reason thatpeople connect with the
characters is because I thinkit's maybe twofold. One, I
(14:41):
really try, even with characterswho are antagonists or people
who you don't really like in thestory, I really try when I'm
writing them to write from theirperspective. Even if they're not
the point of view character, butto write them as if they were
almost, you know. Because everyantagonist is the protagonist of
(15:03):
his own story, you know.
Everybody makes their decisionsand thinks that they're logical.
Otherwise you wouldn't make thatchoice. And so, to write them
kind of empathetically, I think,is why people I think seemed to
connect with them. And I thinkthat maybe the other the other
reason is that I really try notto make anybody wholly good or
(15:26):
wholly bad. Because I don'tthink that those people exist.
And I want them to be complex,and to sometimes do things that
maybe don't make sense to you,but maybe call to mind a time
when you did something thatdidn't make a lot of sense.
Maggie Lynch (15:43):
Oh, absolutely. I agree with you, 100%. No one is
wholly good or wholly bad. Andcertainly, all of us have flaws.
And in fact, that something theyteach in craft is that, you
know, your character has to havea flaw. And that flaw is going
to play a big role in, in whathappens to them, maybe stopping
(16:04):
them on their journey for awhile until they can get over
it. So, Lyn, it's hard for me toknow much about your characters
other than the fact that they'remulticultural. But what is your
approach to to writingcharacters? Do you plan them all
out in advance? Or do you kindof go along and see what
(16:28):
problems they get themselvesinto and have them meet the
people they need to meet?
Lyn Liao Butler (16:33):
I started out that way. I had no idea what a
plotter or a pantser was when Ifirst started writing. And I
literally just had this idea,and I sat down and then I just
let whatever happened happen.
And so some of these characterscame out of just like people I
knew. But not like, they're notbased on anybody. But they're
like, either things I heard inthe news, or something I heard
somebody say, and I'd be like: Oh, what happens if this person (16:52):
undefined
did this, and then thecharacters started coming to me.
But now I do plan out mycharacters. And I actually think
about them all the time. So evenwhen I'm not writing, I'm making
up you know, their charactertraits. Or like, you know, who
they are, what they do, how theyinteract with the main
character. And I actually talkto them too. So sometimes I'm
(17:16):
sitting there, like talking, youknow, talking out scenes in my
head. So I do a lot of it in myhead. Like, before I write
anything down, I've alreadythought about what drives them.
Like what kind of friend theyare, or what kind of antagonists
they are, and why they are theway they are.
(17:36):
And a lot of it is taken fromjust stories I hear in my life.
Or, like, for example, in RedThread of Fate, the story opens
with a woman. They'reabout...her and her husband are
about to adopt a child fromChina. And right before they get
their letter of agreement, hegets killed in an accident with
his estranged cousin. And thatactually came from my husband,
(17:59):
who is a FDNY fireman. He camehome one day and told me about
this horrific call that they hadto do, as it was an accident. A
beverage distribution truck ranover a woman while she was on
the phone with her husband, andshe got killed while she was on
the phone with him. And I waslike: Oh, can you imagine if
that happened? And so that'skind of that character came out
(18:20):
of that story that I heard. So,that's what happened in the
story. She was on the phone withher husband and then, you know,
he gets in an accident. And thenshe has to decide what she's
going to do. And so it kind ofbuilds from life, I guess,
things I heard in life and thenI make up stories about them.
And I realize I have a prettyactive imagination. Because
(18:42):
sometimes I can't tell if acharacter is real or not when I
first wake up. Sometimes I thinka character is real. And then
I'm like, wait, no, I made thatup. It's just not he's not a
real person. Or she's not a realperson. So yeah, I have a pretty
active imagination.
Maggie Lynch (18:58):
I have that problem myself. Because
sometimes I'll be talking to myhusband about someone and he'll
say (19:04):
You've never talked about her before. And it's like, oh,
yeah, she's not real. Exactly. Iunderstand that. I'd like to
just stay with you for a minuteLyn, because one of the things
that intrigues me about yourbooks is that they also seem to
have a really strong sense ofplace. You know, one, it seems
(19:25):
in the first one that yourcharacter goes back to Taiwan,
right, for some period of time.
I don't know if in the secondone she does. Does your
character go to China? And yousaid that you have been to both
of those places yourself? So canyou tell me just how that sense
of place plays out in in yourbooks?
Lyn Liao Butler (19:48):
Well, because I wasn't born here, and I have so
much so many family over there.
And because we did travel toChina to adopt our son, for me,
different places is always veryimportant to try to bring into
my writing as a TaiwaneseAmerican because I find that I
haven't found many books writtenby Taiwanese Americans; or even
(20:10):
Taiwanese writers. Or that has aTaiwanese protagonist. And
actually, my editor at Berkeleysaid to me, when we had our
first phone call, she's like (20:20):
in I think it was like 25 or 30
years that she's been working inpublishing, that my book was the
first book she has ever gottenon submission that had a
Taiwanese protagonist, which Ifound really interesting cuz
she's with a, you know, a bigpublisher and that she's been in
publishing for 25 to 30 years,and she's never once had a POV
from a Taiwanese person. So forme, that's really important to
(20:44):
bring that culture in, because Ithink--especially with all the
anti-Asian hate that's going onin the country right now, the
more people read about cultureslike mine, and different
cultures, I think the more theycan understand it and see that,
you know, hey, we are people,too. We are just as American as
everybody else.? You know, wedidn't bring this Coronavirus
here, or whatever it is thatthey said. So it's very
(21:06):
important for me to bring thisculture in to my books so that
they can see what exactlyTaiwanese is. Because people
still think when I say (21:14):
Oh, I'm
from Taiwan. They're like (21:16):
Oh, I love Thai food. I'm like
no, not Thailand. Taiwan. So andI don't blame them. I mean, if
you didn't grow up knowing thedifference between Taiwan and
Thailand, of course, you'regonna get confused. So that's
why it's important for me tobring that in.
And so I did go back to Taiwan,with my family, and did research
(21:37):
for this first book, becausehalf of it is set in Taiwan. So
I wanted to be, you know, justremember everything. And then
when I was in China, adopting, Iwas already researching for the
second book, which is actuallythe first that I actually wrote.
I wrote the second book before Iwrote Tiger Moms Tale, but that
one didn't sell. So Tiger Mom'sTale was actually written After
(21:57):
Red Thread of Fate. So I hadalready done the research. And
then, when I sold Tiger Mom,they bought it as a two book
deal. So then my editor tookthat first book, too. But yeah,
that's why a sense of place isso important to me, because I
really want to get moreperspective out there. And
because not every TaiwaneseAmerican is going to agree with
my book, because this is myperspective. Which is why it's
(22:18):
so important to get more outthere because I shouldn't be
responsible for all Taiwaneseperspectives, because I was only
there till seven. There was onecritique that said: Oh, her
Mandarin is so stilted in thebook, I'm like, well, yeah,
because I was seven. I have aseven year old Mandarin
vocabulary right now. So Italked like a seven year old.
So, of course, my Mandarin isstilted, because I wasn't
(22:41):
brought up there. Whereassomebody who might have moved
over when they're in their 20s,for college, their Mandarin is
going to be a lot more fluidthan mine. SSo that's why it's
so important for me.
Maggie Lynch (22:51):
Really good points, Lyn. So, speaking of
setting, Erin, your last bookseems to be almost all setting.
Or it sounds like it could bebecause you're hikiing in
northern Michigan and canyou--again, having not read
(23:12):
it--can you talk about how thatplays a role? You know, why did
you choose going on this longhike and how much, you know, the
setting plays in that.
Erin Bartels (23:25):
So in All That We Carried, it is a hiking trip in
The Porcupine Mountains, whichare in Michigan's Upper
Peninsula. Michigan's UpperPeninsula is the best part of
the state. It absolutely has themost gorgeous scenery. So it's
fun to write about. And I thinkthat people who like traveling
through books, enjoy that sortof thing. Because it's not
really a different cultureyou're experiencing. Because
(23:46):
it's out in the woods, there'snot a lot of people; but it's a
different setting than maybe youwould go into yourself. I think
that there's a lot fewer peoplewho actually live close to
nature or make the effort to getto nature, in order to
experience it. Maybe a littlebit more over this past year
when people needed to get out ofthe house and find something to
do that didn't involve a lot ofother people. But all of my
(24:08):
books so far, and the ones thatare coming out next, take place
in Michigan. And one of thereasons is because I'm from
Michigan, so it makes it reallyeasy to research. My parents are
from the Detroit area. And so myfirst book was set there. And my
second book was set in afictionalized version of my own
hometown, which which wasreally, really fun. And I think
(24:29):
made it a really evocativesetting because I know it so
well.
But the great part about thehiking in wilderness is that you
force these characters, which inthis case are two sisters who
haven't really spoken in up 10years, to deal with their issues
because there's nobody elsethere to talk to. And you have
(24:51):
nothing else to do you on ahiking trip. You walk and you
talk and that's about it. And sothe the setting in that case, on
one end it forces them to docertain things because they have
to make decisions about whatthey encounter. But also, it
kind of gives the reader alittle bit of relief in a way
because the setting is reallybeautiful and peaceful. And
(25:13):
those sisters are not. They arenot peaceful with each other.
They're often bickering. Theyhave these deep seated issues
they haven't dealt with. So it'sa nice kind of juxtaposition.
And I think it gives the readera little bit of a little bit of
a relief. And also, it's alittle ironic in a way that you
have all of this beauty aroundyou. And inside your still kind
(25:37):
of rotten, and you got to dealwith that or you can't
experience the beauty aroundyou.
Maggie Lynch (25:43):
Really interesting. I like that
juxtaposition. Now I have toread your books. Just endless,
it is endless. My TBR pilealready is like 100 bookks long.
Erin Bartels (25:59):
This past summer I managed to read a book that was
recommended to me by my collegeroommate almost 20 years ago,
and I finally got to it.
Maggie Lynch (26:07):
I don't feel bad now. So, Lyn, one of the things
that you mentioned, and Erinmentioned this, too, is dealing
with grief and loss. Andcertainly in the one about the
Red Thread of Fate, because, youknow, the woman's husband dies,
(26:32):
right at a really criticalmoment for them. Is that a
common theme in both of yourbooks as well? Or is it just
that one?
Lyn Liao Butler (26:42):
So I knew, I didn't realize this, but someone
always dies in every single oneof my books. Even in the rom com
that I just wrote, for somereason, I think I'm very
influenced by Liane Moriarty.
She's like my idol. She's likethe one. I read her books during
a really bad period of my life.
(27:02):
And they're, you know, basicallywhat saved me. And I think
that's why I wanted to write.
Because her books really took meout of my life and made me feel
better that there are people outthere who might be experiencing
something similar or you know,understand. And that's why I
wanted to write. To startwriting is to hopefully reach
other people, and help them theway her books helped me. And for
(27:23):
some reason, I realized that Ithink every, like in every one
of her books somebody dies. AndI guess, subconsciously, that
kind of carried over to me. Andso now someone dies in every
book.
I actually had someone who wassupposed to blurb my first book,
The Tiger Moms Tale. As shestarted reading it--in that book
(27:44):
it opens with the protagonistfinding out that her a estranged
father, Tony, dies. And shecouldn't keep going because she
had just experienced a death inher family. And I was like,
please don't read it. I don'twant to trigger you. And then
she's like, I'm so sorry. I willblurb your second book. I'm
like, I don't think you want toblurb my second book, because
the husband is that one whodies. And she's like, I'll blurb
(28:06):
your third book. I'm like, No,somebody dies. So yes, I think
because for me, I'm dealing withgrief and loss. I've been very
lucky, I haven't had very manypeople close to me die. And so I
think for me, it's that subjectis just really fascinating to
(28:27):
me. Like how do people come backfrom a loss like that? And how
do you go on when something youknow, happens? So I guess I'm,
in a way, I'm kind of fascinatedby it. Maybe it's my way of
dealing with grief. And you knowhow I would handle stuff. So,
yeah, that is a common theme inall my books.
Maggie Lynch (28:45):
Well, and I think, again, in women's fiction, it is
often a common theme. It'sfunny, you know, talking about
someone trying to blurb yourbooks that way. I was in a
similar situation. I was writingthe third book in my women's
fiction series. And, and herfather is dying at the beginning
of the book. And I started itthat way. And about halfway
(29:12):
through the book, when I wasreally starting to deal with all
those emotions, my father died.
I couldn't write anything forsix months. But it's important.
It's important to do it becausenot only does it help you, but
like you said, it helps otherpeople because we're all gonna
die. And we're all gonna havepeople in our life who die. So
Erin, now that we're alldepressed, tell us about your
(29:33):
book.
Erin Bartels (29:37):
Oh, lots of people die. Especially my first book.
Lots of people die.
Lyn Liao Butler (29:42):
Yes. I read it.
I know.
Erin Bartels (29:46):
In the second book, there is a there's a death
but... Oh, no, somebody doesdie. Nevermind, I thought it was
just in the background, butthere's another one. And the
third one starts out with peopledealing with grief. And I
actually have had people ask meabout All That We Carried, if I
had had a parent die, or a closeperson in my life, and I, like
(30:09):
Lyn, have had a blessed life inthat way. The only people in my
life who have died, who arefamily, were very old at the
time and in poor health, and itwasn't surprising. But I am a
pastor's wife. And I deal withdeath a lot, and a lot of
different kinds of death. Andyou see, when you're on the
sidelines, you see how differentpeople in the same family react
(30:32):
very differently. And death caneither bring people together, or
it can bring up all these oldunresolved wounds and arguments
and rancor. And I think that Idrew on that experience of just
watching other people grieve.
And also, I think, because it'sa book that focuses on sisters,
and I have a close in age,sister, I also drew on all of
(30:54):
that sort of angst that you havewhen you have a sister and you
don't get along for a reallylong time. We get along great
now, but I mean, I pulled fromall of that, to think of how
would we have been if this hadhappened to us. And I could see
us going in these directions.
And and so that's , yeah, Ithink that you're right. That's
(31:18):
a part of our everyday lives.
And we, everybody, has to dealwith it at some point. And I
think that's probably why it's acommon theme. And it also sets
up characters who are maybe morevulnerable or raw than they
would have been otherwise. Andit's just a, it's a good way to
set up conflict or set upsomebody's backstory that they
(31:40):
they dealt with or didn't dealwith a death very well.
Maggie Lynch (31:47):
Yeah, really good point. And after all, women's
fiction is about the emotionaljourney. What's more emotional
than having someone die? Yeah.
Well, let's kind of get to anicer topic, I hope. I'd like to
know from each of you, you know,what's coming up next for you in
terms of other books that maybeyou have sitting there with a
(32:10):
publisher or just in the back ofyour head. What you're tackling
next? You know, and what arethey about?
Lyn Liao Butler (32:25):
Sure, so I, I actually finished a third book.
It was supposed to be women'sfiction, I had set in Hawaii.
And we actually went thereduring the pandemic, and lived
there for two months so I couldresearch the book. I was
supposed to go there last year.
But you know, everythinghappened. And then this winter,
I was like, I really need to gothere and do some research. They
were being so strict about whothey let in because there's
(32:49):
almost no cases on the island.
So we just decided to stay. Andthat book is finished. But then
when I came home, I was nothappy with it. I was like
something is off about thisbook. I don't love it the way I
love my first two books. And soin the meantime, I wrote a YA
book, a complete change. It's arom com. And my agent,
(33:11):
thankfully, also reps YA. So shewas really enthusiastic about
this book. She loved it. And soI wrote it. And then I went back
to this book, and I was like, Idon't like this book. There's
something wrong with it.
And I just recently had twowriter friends who write
thriller and thriller andsuspense look at it. And they're
like, this is not women'sfiction. This is a thriller, a
(33:32):
domestic suspense. And I waslike, that's what's wrong with
this. People keep dying. Andlike, you know, there's dark
stuff. And like, I kept tryingto make a women's fiction by
trying to focus on the emotionaljourney and whatever. But it was
creepy, and it was stalking andthere was this, you know, all
this stuff that was not women'sfiction. And I came up and I
wrote, rewrote the first fivechapters, I came up, redid the
(33:55):
synopsis over the holidayweekend, and I sent it to my
agent. I know this is a crazyidea, but just keep an open
mind. I really think this isthriller and domestic suspense.
And at first it's like you can'twrite another genre you're just
starting out. Your books haven'teven be published yet. You know
(34:15):
your audience wants you aswomen's fiction writer. And now
you just wrote a YA. And nowsuddenly you want to write
domestic. People are going to beconfused you know. We can't go
on sub to three differentpublishing houses. You can't be
with three different publishinghouses so early in your career.
She's like, how about a penname? I'm like I really don't
want to write under a pen name.
So anyways, she looked at it andshe was like, you know, she read
(34:37):
it. She's like, you're right.
This is so much better as adomestic suspense. So now we are
at...I can't talk about itbecause, obviously, things are
happening. But she liked it asdomestic suspense. So that book
has now become a suspense story.
And I actually, over theweekend, wrote three chapters
and a synopsis for my thirdwomen's fiction, which she
(35:01):
really liked as women's fiction.
So I've got my hand in a coupledifferent genres right now.
Because my agent says I writefaster than traditional
publishing works. So it'sdoable, but we have to be smart
about how we juggle this.
Maggie Lynch (35:18):
Good for you. And I think, I mean, I think agents
are starting to learn that whatworked for them 10 years ago,
you know, is really not the casetoday. And a lot of independent
publishers, you know, do writein multiple genres, and some of
them do really well at it, andsome of them don't. But I'm
(35:40):
really glad to hear that sheobviously loves your writing.
Lyn Liao Butler (35:43):
Yeah, and she, and I'm really thankful, because
Lyn, no, no, stop. And she just,she was just like, completely
100% behind me. I was also luckythat she reps all three of these
genres so that she could guideme and tell me, yes, this is
domestic suspense. And so I loveher. I'm so happy to have her on
my side.
Maggie Lynch (36:06):
So what are you working on next, Erin?
Erin Bartels (36:09):
Well, I guess, later this month, I'm getting
edits back on my fourth book,which is called The Girl Who
Could Breathe Underwater. Andthat is a story that is really
personal to me. It's definitelythe most personal thing I've
written. It involves a womanwho, who based her first...now
(36:30):
this is not the personal part.
She based her first book onsomething that really happened
in her life. And she did notfictionalize it enough. And she
has been criticized about howshe portrayed the antagonist.
And so she's kind of returningto this, this lake that she
spent all of her summers on as akid. Her grandfather has died,
(36:50):
and she has the cabin now. Andshe's going to go back there.
And she's going to confront thisperson, who's the brother of her
best friend, who she hasn't seenin a long time. They kind of
drifted apart. And so it's thestory of her figuring out if she
told the truth in her story, andrealizing that things are a lot
more complex than she thought.
(37:14):
But there's also, the aspect ofit that's based more personally
on me. It is the experience thatshe had with the antagonist. So
the thing that she wrote aboutin ther first book. So I'm
really excited about it. I thinkit's going to be, I think it's
the best thing I've everwritten. I don't know how it
(37:34):
will land with people. It's alittle darker. It's not domestic
thriller, but you know, not thatthe things that I've written
before were fluffy, I think theyall kind of deal with kind of
difficult issues.
But, um, the book that I'mwriting right now is, is
actually really fun. I'm writinga book that I've set in 1990. So
(37:58):
it's been really fun to be in1990. and just sort of remember
a simpler time, and not havecell phones involved in the plot
or anything. And it's aboutmusicians, and the main
character is actually a guy inhis early 20s. And the main
secondary character is a womanin her early 20s. And what's so
(38:22):
fun about it is that I grew upwith an audiophile Father. So a
guy who spent a lot of time andmoney on high end stereos. He
doesn't play an instrument. Hecan't sing. He can't even keep a
beat. But he, I mean, I grew upwith amazing sound in our house.
Every room had speakers. Musicwas a really huge part of
(38:42):
growing up for me. So it's beenreally fun to just be steeped in
that world. And just talk aboutsomething that I absolutely love
that I didn't even realize Iwanted to talk about so much.
And once I got started doing it,and the other really fun part
about it is that I'm writingsongs to go along with it. And,
you know, I've never done thatbefore. I've written poetry, but
(39:04):
I'm actually, you know, writingmelodies and playing guitar and
all that stuff. It was really,really fun. And I'm going to be
you know, we're going to begetting some people together to
actually record songs. So it'llbe part of the launch. We'll
have some live music, you know,we'll give away CDs,
Maggie Lynch (39:22):
Very Cool. Yeah.
Erin Bartels (39:25):
I'm having a lot of fun with it. After writing
some kind of harder stuff. Thisis a lot more fun. But it's
interesting that you talk about,Lyn, what your agent or your
(laughter from everyone)editor is expecting because I
had to pitch this book to myeditor. And one of the questions
for the editorial board was,well, why this book now? And I
think it was they were a littleconcerned that the protagonist
(39:45):
was younger, that he was a guy,you know, is this is this too
happy of a book? And I'm like,Oh, no, no, no, believe me.
The issues that I feel like itdeals with are, are the reason I
Maggie Lynch (40:21):
Yes.
Erin Bartels (40:21):
Or you can. And I don't want to write the same
book. Right? Every time I write,I want to write lots of
wanted to publish it now.
Because it deals a lot withdifferent types of books. And it
never even occurred to me towhose opinion of you matters.
And I think once you get a fewwrite domestic thriller, but
maybe I should. Okay, but youbooks in, and people have
certain expectations for whatshould.
you're going to write next, youfeel boxed in by that.
Lyn Liao Butler (40:35):
Especially since it sounds like you're just
like me, somebody dies and allyour books. We didn't
intentionally do it, but ithappens.
Erin Bartels (40:43):
I'm having a lot of fun with it.
Maggie Lynch (40:47):
Sounds really great. And I love books about
music. My series is about musicas well, an all women band. So,
because my husband's a musician,I got to kibitz a lot. And we
did write some music for thebooks together. But we weren't
as organized as you, you know.
You put them all out in advance.
(41:10):
They're, they're coming outbehind the book.
Erin Bartels (41:13):
Yeah, I shared a few of them on Instagram, like,
as I'm kind of working on them.
But I think the fun thing, whatI'd like to do and what I'm
going to be talking to mypublisher about at a meeting
next month is like (41:21):
Okay, how can we make it so that when you
have the audiobook, you have theactual songs happen when they
happen in the book?
Lyn Liao Butler (41:31):
I like that.
Erin Bartels (41:33):
I know.
Maggie Lynch (41:35):
Absolutely. You can.
Erin Bartels (41:37):
I want to kind of think outside the box on that.
Maggie Lynch (41:39):
Yeah. Great. I think it's a great idea. Or the
other possibility is do it as aspecial edition like a NFT.
Erin Bartels (41:48):
Yeah.
Maggie Lynch (41:49):
And charge, beaucoup bucks.
(laughter)All righty. Well, thank you very
much. It's been absolutelywonderful talking to both of
you. And thank you for listeningto dust jackets, conversation
with authors. Don't forget tocheck the show notes for
everything happening on women'sfiction day, and a lot more
(42:10):
information about how to connectwith these two wonderful women.
Welcome to Dust Jackets
Authors. Today I'm doing a verydifferent show than I usually
do. Instead of one author, I'minterviewing two. They're both
women's fiction writers. AndI've gotten to know them through
the women's fiction writersAssociation. We're doing two
sets of these interviews. Onewith these two authors, and
(00:35):
another with another two lateron. And we're doing this in
celebration of women's fictionday, which comes June 8. Very
soon.
So, let me introduce you to thetwo women I have on the show
today. Erin Bartels is an awardwinning novelist currently with
three books completed. Her debutnovel, We Hope for Better
(00:56):
Things, was a 2020 Michigannotable book, a winner of the
2020 Star Award from the Women'sFiction Writers Association, and
the 2019 Christy awardfinalists. Her second novel, The
Words Between Us, was also a2020 Christy award finalist. Her
third novel, All That We Carry,just came out in January of this
(01:20):
year. I expect, given her trackrecord, we'll probably be seeing
some more awards mentioned forthat one. She's also a poet and
a short story writer.
Lyn Liao Butler's debut novel,The Tiger Moms Tale, was
scheduled to already be out; butthe pandemic changed that. It
will now release July 6th. I cantell you advance reviews are
(01:45):
stellar, so you might as wellget your pre-order in now. Her
second book, Red Thread of Fate,is also available in pre-order
with a release date of February8, 2022. Lyn's day job is very
different from writing. She's aFitness Studio owner, where
she's a personal trainer, afitness instructor, and a yoga
(02:07):
instructor. So, as you can see,we have two powerhouse women
with us today. So my firstquestion for each of you is:
When you started writing, didyou know that you were writing
women's fiction? Or did youwrite what you felt like writing
and then realized it fits intothe women's fiction category?
(02:27):
Why don't we start with you,Lyn.
Lyn Liao Butler (02:30):
I had no idea what women's fiction was when I
started writing. I just startedwriting in 2015. It was not
anything I ever thought I wasever going to do. Because it's
...You see, I used to be aballet dancer in New York City.
And now a fitness instructor.
But when I moved out of thecity, up only like an hour north
of the city, everybody thought Iwas living in the country. And
(02:50):
they wanted to know what else dowe do in the country. So I
started a blog, just to keeppeople updated. And that first
book came from the blog posts.
So I had no idea anything aboutgenre. I didn't know anything. I
didn't even know that term,Women's Fiction. I just wrote
this book that it just kind ofcame out of me. And then as I
did research, I realized (03:10):
You know what? It fits into that
women's fiction genre. So that'swhere I learned that it's
women's fiction.
Maggie Lynch (03:18):
Yeah, I think that's a very common story,
actually. How about you, Erin?
Erin Bartels (03:23):
Yeah, um, well, my nine-to-five job has been in
publishing for nearly 20 years.
So I was quite cognizant ofdifferent genres and how you
market a book and how you needto find some way to put it in a
genre so that you can find a wayto sell it. But when I was
writing, I didn't feel I waswriting it purposefully to be
women's fiction. I think becauseit centered on female
(03:48):
characters. My first book hadthree timelines, three female
protagonists. And it certainlywas not romance. It was part
historical fiction and partcontemporary. I think that the
only thing that seems like itfit was women's fiction. And I
feel like, if it had been maleprotagonists, or even a male
author, it would have just beenfiction. Right? Yeah. I do think
(04:09):
I thought of it as an upmarketbook, because it wasn't really
commercial, but it wasn't reallyliterary. So somewhere in
between there, and it's a goodBook Club, book. And it seems
like women's fiction fits mostbook club books along those
lines. I think, because theyhave a lot of issues that people
want to talk about, a lot ofthings to unpack. And I think
(04:31):
that they just really connectwith Book Club readers who are
primarily women.
Maggie Lynch (04:38):
I can tell you in my book club, 90% of the books
we read are women's fiction.
It's absolutely true. So, I'dlike to get a little bit more
into each of your books. I'dlike to start with you, Erin. It
seemed it's funny that you saidupmarket fiction because, having
not read your books, you know,just looking at the blurbs and
(04:58):
the reviews that you have, thatwas the first thing I thought of
was upmarket fiction. And boththe blurbs and the cover designs
make them feel very similar,although they are very different
stories. And one of the themes,and again just based on the
descriptions and reviews, whatseems to be a thread was kind of
(05:18):
that concept of you can't runaway from the past. So you can
either say, Maggie, you have noidea what it's about, or verify
that. But I just wonder, youknow, what is it that draws you
to that theme? If it's true. Andif there are, is there another
theme that you think is actuallymore important in these three
(05:39):
books that you have out now?
Erin Bartels (05:43):
I think that you're right in a way that they
all are dealing with somethingin the past, whether it's in the
long gone past, or somebody'schildhood or something like
that. And I think the thing thatinterests me about considering
people's past--now I have anextremely boring life with a
very vanilla past. So I don'thave an interesting past that
(06:06):
I'm drawing from any of this.
But I'm, I've always beeninterested in kind of cause and
effect. Whether it's on a largescale, like, you know, a riot
doesn't happen out of nowhere. Awar doesn't happen out of
nowhere. There had to be eventsand things leading to this. And
I think that's true on a smallscale in everyone's life. You
are the collection of all thethings that have happened to
you. And you can't make them nothave happened. And they develop
(06:30):
you into the person you are now.
And the person you are now dealswith challenges and
relationships and things in acertain way because of your
past. So I'm very interested inhow the things that happened to
us, form us into the people weare and how that affects our
(06:51):
relationships with other peopleand our own inner selves and the
way we see ourselves. So I thinkthat was an astute observation,
even not having read them, theyabsolutely do focus on how the
past. Even if there's pain, andeven if there's negative things,
you can grow from that. And youcan become better. And I think
(07:16):
it's instead of bemoaning whathappens to us, it's using it to
become a stronger, betterperson.
Maggie Lynch (07:24):
I agree with that so much. You know, I think that
the past... as they say, if youdon't understand history, it
will continue to repeat itself.
And I think it's the same aboutour past as well. And there's a
lot of books that deal with thepast. But it just was really
interesting to me when they'revery different stories, from
what I can tell, but that was athread. Yeah. Lyn,
(07:45):
interestingly, your books alsodeal with the past in some way,
but in a very different contextin that, it seems--again, not
having read them being asthey're not out yet--that family
dynamics play a really criticalrole in both of yours, and also
in forming an identity from twovery different cultures. As most
(08:10):
of us know, cultures are verymuch driven by the past, by our
ancestors. So can you talk aboutyour characters and the road to
identity, and how their culturesand their past causes such
difficulty.
Lyn Liao Butler (08:29):
So I was born in Taiwan, and moved here to the
states when I was seven. So Iwas basically brought up here.
But, because I was born there, Icould still speak the language.
I speak Mandarin and Taiwanese.
And my parents are, you know,from Taiwan. And it was hard
growing up here because on theoutside I look Asian and
Taiwanese; but on the inside, Ifelt like I was American. So it
(08:49):
was always that pull, like whenI'm home I'm trying to be the
good, like the good Taiwanesegirl, you know, who obeys the
parents and respects elders anddoes well at school and, you
know, does a million things. Andthen on the outside, you know,
at school, I'd be like theAmerican me. And it was just
really hard to figure out who Iwas. Because I always felt like
(09:10):
I was playing a part. Whetherit's at school or at home,
because I didn't fit in, youknow.
I, we, actually lived in a verypredominantly white neighborhood
when we moved here. And so Iwent to a school where I was
only one of like, maybe three,like a handful of Asian people.
So I wanted to look like NellieOlson from Little House on the
(09:32):
Prairie with the boingy curls, Icall them. I thought that was
the ideal, like I wanted curlyhair, curls that you could go
boing. And I didn't want blackhair. I want blonde hair. So
when I started writing, youknow, obviously now as an adult,
I've managed to marry the twotogether and kind of find where
I belong in this world. But whenI started writing, that's just a
(09:56):
theme that always runs through.
I think probably almost all mybooks so far is just searching
for identity, whether you're aTaiwanese American or you were
born here, but still having todeal with it. And that's why I
created Alexa who is my maincharacter in the Tiger Moms
Tale. She is actually halfTaiwanese and half white. Her
mom is white, her father wasTaiwanese. But she was brought
(10:17):
up with her white family. So shespends her whole life with a
blonde family. Her stepfather'sblonde. Her half sister is also
blonde, like her parents. And soshe's doesn't really fit in.
I've always wondered, what wouldit be like to look Asian on the
outside, but really be broughtup in a white American family.
And that's where she came from.
(10:42):
And then, you know, having herto go search for her past and
her identity. I guess it's kindof like, you know, that's how I
was trying to like, figure outhow I found my heritage. And it
kind of runs through, it's atheme that runs through all my
books. It either takes placeinternationally, like here in
the States and also in Taiwan,and China, or there's a lot of
(11:05):
cultural references.
Maggie Lynch (11:09):
That's really interesting, to me it's a very
interesting journey. And I amgoing to be really interested in
reading your books. I have a lotof friends who have adopted
Asian babies, who are white, andthere is a, you know, they do
struggle, particularly if you'reliving in an all white area,
which most of Oregon is, I haveto say.
Lyn Liao Butler (11:33):
My son is actually adopted from China. And
we know a lot of people who arewhite and adopted, you know, a
Chinese baby. And we kept intouch with them and friends of
them. So my second book, RedThread of Fate, is actually
based on that journey. So theydo go to China to adopt a child.
Maggie Lynch (11:50):
So, Lyn, it sounds like you are writing from your
personal experience right now.
Lyn Liao Butler (11:56):
Yeah, I'm taking stuff from my life. But
all those stories are completelymade up like Erin does. I like
to make up things for mycharacters, like stuff that I
would normally not do. But thebasis is from my background.
Maggie Lynch (12:11):
Well, and I think that's true of most writers. I
mean, if nothing else, we writeabout emotions that we
understand and that we'veexperienced. So, speaking of
characters, thank you for thatgreat segue. Erin, all of your
reviewers talk about yourcharacters, and how real they
are and how much they relate tothem. So I'd really like to know
(12:32):
how you approach writing them.
Are they composites of peopleyou know, or are they developed,
you know, to serve specificthings in your stories, specific
themes or types or is itsomething in between,
Erin Bartels (12:45):
I feel like it's not quite either, I, I have very
rarely thought of a real person.
When writing a character, I canthink of one for the my next
book that's going to be comingout. There's one character based
on a real person.
They're not quiteintroduced to serve the plot,
(13:08):
either. I'm not 100% sure howthey all materialize. But I
think that a lot of it has to dowith the things that I, as a
writer, or I, as a person, feellike I need to deal with or I
need to think about this. I wantto think through this issue. I
(13:29):
want to deal with this feelingor whatever. I think they arise
from that sort of swill ofemotion and personal history,
and then they're never me. Butthey're always going to be
addressing things that I amconcerned about, or I am
interested in. And, as you youdevelop that main character, the
(13:55):
people who come into their livescome into their lives as people
who are going to be challengesto them, or people who are going
to support them, or people whodon't understand them, all these
different things. And I feellike they just kind of
materialize out of the theprocess of writing, because we
have all of those people in ourlives. And those people exist, I
(14:19):
guess, as types in a way. ButI'm not looking for like, Okay,
I need a sidekick here. Or, youknow, I need a wise old man here
or something like that. So Ireally don't have a great answer
for that.
I think that the reason thatpeople connect with the
characters is because I thinkit's maybe twofold. One, I
(14:41):
really try, even with characterswho are antagonists or people
who you don't really like in thestory, I really try when I'm
writing them to write from theirperspective. Even if they're not
the point of view character, butto write them as if they were
almost, you know. Because everyantagonist is the protagonist of
(15:03):
his own story, you know.
Everybody makes their decisionsand thinks that they're logical.
Otherwise you wouldn't make thatchoice. And so, to write them
kind of empathetically, I think,is why people I think seemed to
connect with them. And I thinkthat maybe the other the other
reason is that I really try notto make anybody wholly good or
(15:26):
wholly bad. Because I don'tthink that those people exist.
And I want them to be complex,and to sometimes do things that
maybe don't make sense to you,but maybe call to mind a time
when you did something thatdidn't make a lot of sense.
Maggie Lynch (15:43):
Oh, absolutely. I agree with you, 100%. No one is
wholly good or wholly bad. Andcertainly, all of us have flaws.
And in fact, that something theyteach in craft is that, you
know, your character has to havea flaw. And that flaw is going
to play a big role in, in whathappens to them, maybe stopping
(16:04):
them on their journey for awhile until they can get over
it. So, Lyn, it's hard for me toknow much about your characters
other than the fact that they'remulticultural. But what is your
approach to to writingcharacters? Do you plan them all
out in advance? Or do you kindof go along and see what
(16:28):
problems they get themselvesinto and have them meet the
people they need to meet?
Lyn Liao Butler (16:33):
I started out that way. I had no idea what a
plotter or a pantser was when Ifirst started writing. And I
literally just had this idea,and I sat down and then I just
let whatever happened happen.
And so some of these characterscame out of just like people I
knew. But not like, they're notbased on anybody. But they're
like, either things I heard inthe news, or something I heard
somebody say, and I'd be like: Oh, what happens if this person (16:52):
undefined
did this, and then thecharacters started coming to me.
But now I do plan out mycharacters. And I actually think
about them all the time. So evenwhen I'm not writing, I'm making
up you know, their charactertraits. Or like, you know, who
they are, what they do, how theyinteract with the main
character. And I actually talkto them too. So sometimes I'm
(17:16):
sitting there, like talking, youknow, talking out scenes in my
head. So I do a lot of it in myhead. Like, before I write
anything down, I've alreadythought about what drives them.
Like what kind of friend theyare, or what kind of antagonists
they are, and why they are theway they are.
(17:36):
And a lot of it is taken fromjust stories I hear in my life.
Or, like, for example, in RedThread of Fate, the story opens
with a woman. They'reabout...her and her husband are
about to adopt a child fromChina. And right before they get
their letter of agreement, hegets killed in an accident with
his estranged cousin. And thatactually came from my husband,
(17:59):
who is a FDNY fireman. He camehome one day and told me about
this horrific call that they hadto do, as it was an accident. A
beverage distribution truck ranover a woman while she was on
the phone with her husband, andshe got killed while she was on
the phone with him. And I waslike: Oh, can you imagine if
that happened? And so that'skind of that character came out
(18:20):
of that story that I heard. So,that's what happened in the
story. She was on the phone withher husband and then, you know,
he gets in an accident. And thenshe has to decide what she's
going to do. And so it kind ofbuilds from life, I guess,
things I heard in life and thenI make up stories about them.
And I realize I have a prettyactive imagination. Because
(18:42):
sometimes I can't tell if acharacter is real or not when I
first wake up. Sometimes I thinka character is real. And then
I'm like, wait, no, I made thatup. It's just not he's not a
real person. Or she's not a realperson. So yeah, I have a pretty
active imagination.
Maggie Lynch (18:58):
I have that problem myself. Because
sometimes I'll be talking to myhusband about someone and he'll
say (19:04):
You've never talked about her before. And it's like, oh,
yeah, she's not real. Exactly. Iunderstand that. I'd like to
just stay with you for a minuteLyn, because one of the things
that intrigues me about yourbooks is that they also seem to
have a really strong sense ofplace. You know, one, it seems
(19:25):
in the first one that yourcharacter goes back to Taiwan,
right, for some period of time.
I don't know if in the secondone she does. Does your
character go to China? And yousaid that you have been to both
of those places yourself? So canyou tell me just how that sense
of place plays out in in yourbooks?
Lyn Liao Butler (19:48):
Well, because I wasn't born here, and I have so
much so many family over there.
And because we did travel toChina to adopt our son, for me,
different places is always veryimportant to try to bring into
my writing as a TaiwaneseAmerican because I find that I
haven't found many books writtenby Taiwanese Americans; or even
(20:10):
Taiwanese writers. Or that has aTaiwanese protagonist. And
actually, my editor at Berkeleysaid to me, when we had our
first phone call, she's like (20:20):
in I think it was like 25 or 30
years that she's been working inpublishing, that my book was the
first book she has ever gottenon submission that had a
Taiwanese protagonist, which Ifound really interesting cuz
she's with a, you know, a bigpublisher and that she's been in
publishing for 25 to 30 years,and she's never once had a POV
from a Taiwanese person. So forme, that's really important to
(20:44):
bring that culture in, because Ithink--especially with all the
anti-Asian hate that's going onin the country right now, the
more people read about cultureslike mine, and different
cultures, I think the more theycan understand it and see that,
you know, hey, we are people,too. We are just as American as
everybody else.? You know, wedidn't bring this Coronavirus
here, or whatever it is thatthey said. So it's very
(21:06):
important for me to bring thisculture in to my books so that
they can see what exactlyTaiwanese is. Because people
still think when I say (21:14):
Oh, I'm
from Taiwan. They're like (21:16):
Oh, I love Thai food. I'm like
no, not Thailand. Taiwan. So andI don't blame them. I mean, if
you didn't grow up knowing thedifference between Taiwan and
Thailand, of course, you'regonna get confused. So that's
why it's important for me tobring that in.
And so I did go back to Taiwan,with my family, and did research
(21:37):
for this first book, becausehalf of it is set in Taiwan. So
I wanted to be, you know, justremember everything. And then
when I was in China, adopting, Iwas already researching for the
second book, which is actuallythe first that I actually wrote.
I wrote the second book before Iwrote Tiger Moms Tale, but that
one didn't sell. So Tiger Mom'sTale was actually written After
(21:57):
Red Thread of Fate. So I hadalready done the research. And
then, when I sold Tiger Mom,they bought it as a two book
deal. So then my editor tookthat first book, too. But yeah,
that's why a sense of place isso important to me, because I
really want to get moreperspective out there. And
because not every TaiwaneseAmerican is going to agree with
my book, because this is myperspective. Which is why it's
(22:18):
so important to get more outthere because I shouldn't be
responsible for all Taiwaneseperspectives, because I was only
there till seven. There was onecritique that said: Oh, her
Mandarin is so stilted in thebook, I'm like, well, yeah,
because I was seven. I have aseven year old Mandarin
vocabulary right now. So Italked like a seven year old.
So, of course, my Mandarin isstilted, because I wasn't
(22:41):
brought up there. Whereassomebody who might have moved
over when they're in their 20s,for college, their Mandarin is
going to be a lot more fluidthan mine. SSo that's why it's
so important for me.
Maggie Lynch (22:51):
Really good points, Lyn. So, speaking of
setting, Erin, your last bookseems to be almost all setting.
Or it sounds like it could bebecause you're hikiing in
northern Michigan and canyou--again, having not read
(23:12):
it--can you talk about how thatplays a role? You know, why did
you choose going on this longhike and how much, you know, the
setting plays in that.
Erin Bartels (23:25):
So in All That We Carried, it is a hiking trip in
The Porcupine Mountains, whichare in Michigan's Upper
Peninsula. Michigan's UpperPeninsula is the best part of
the state. It absolutely has themost gorgeous scenery. So it's
fun to write about. And I thinkthat people who like traveling
through books, enjoy that sortof thing. Because it's not
really a different cultureyou're experiencing. Because
(23:46):
it's out in the woods, there'snot a lot of people; but it's a
different setting than maybe youwould go into yourself. I think
that there's a lot fewer peoplewho actually live close to
nature or make the effort to getto nature, in order to
experience it. Maybe a littlebit more over this past year
when people needed to get out ofthe house and find something to
do that didn't involve a lot ofother people. But all of my
(24:08):
books so far, and the ones thatare coming out next, take place
in Michigan. And one of thereasons is because I'm from
Michigan, so it makes it reallyeasy to research. My parents are
from the Detroit area. And so myfirst book was set there. And my
second book was set in afictionalized version of my own
hometown, which which wasreally, really fun. And I think
(24:29):
made it a really evocativesetting because I know it so
well.
But the great part about thehiking in wilderness is that you
force these characters, which inthis case are two sisters who
haven't really spoken in up 10years, to deal with their issues
because there's nobody elsethere to talk to. And you have
(24:51):
nothing else to do you on ahiking trip. You walk and you
talk and that's about it. And sothe the setting in that case, on
one end it forces them to docertain things because they have
to make decisions about whatthey encounter. But also, it
kind of gives the reader alittle bit of relief in a way
because the setting is reallybeautiful and peaceful. And
(25:13):
those sisters are not. They arenot peaceful with each other.
They're often bickering. Theyhave these deep seated issues
they haven't dealt with. So it'sa nice kind of juxtaposition.
And I think it gives the readera little bit of a little bit of
a relief. And also, it's alittle ironic in a way that you
have all of this beauty aroundyou. And inside your still kind
(25:37):
of rotten, and you got to dealwith that or you can't
experience the beauty aroundyou.
Maggie Lynch (25:43):
Really interesting. I like that
juxtaposition. Now I have toread your books. Just endless,
it is endless. My TBR pilealready is like 100 bookks long.
Erin Bartels (25:59):
This past summer I managed to read a book that was
recommended to me by my collegeroommate almost 20 years ago,
and I finally got to it.
Maggie Lynch (26:07):
I don't feel bad now. So, Lyn, one of the things
that you mentioned, and Erinmentioned this, too, is dealing
with grief and loss. Andcertainly in the one about the
Red Thread of Fate, because, youknow, the woman's husband dies,
(26:32):
right at a really criticalmoment for them. Is that a
common theme in both of yourbooks as well? Or is it just
that one?
Lyn Liao Butler (26:42):
So I knew, I didn't realize this, but someone
always dies in every single oneof my books. Even in the rom com
that I just wrote, for somereason, I think I'm very
influenced by Liane Moriarty.
She's like my idol. She's likethe one. I read her books during
a really bad period of my life.
(27:02):
And they're, you know, basicallywhat saved me. And I think
that's why I wanted to write.
Because her books really took meout of my life and made me feel
better that there are people outthere who might be experiencing
something similar or you know,understand. And that's why I
wanted to write. To startwriting is to hopefully reach
other people, and help them theway her books helped me. And for
(27:23):
some reason, I realized that Ithink every, like in every one
of her books somebody dies. AndI guess, subconsciously, that
kind of carried over to me. Andso now someone dies in every
book.
I actually had someone who wassupposed to blurb my first book,
The Tiger Moms Tale. As shestarted reading it--in that book
(27:44):
it opens with the protagonistfinding out that her a estranged
father, Tony, dies. And shecouldn't keep going because she
had just experienced a death inher family. And I was like,
please don't read it. I don'twant to trigger you. And then
she's like, I'm so sorry. I willblurb your second book. I'm
like, I don't think you want toblurb my second book, because
the husband is that one whodies. And she's like, I'll blurb
(28:06):
your third book. I'm like, No,somebody dies. So yes, I think
because for me, I'm dealing withgrief and loss. I've been very
lucky, I haven't had very manypeople close to me die. And so I
think for me, it's that subjectis just really fascinating to
(28:27):
me. Like how do people come backfrom a loss like that? And how
do you go on when something youknow, happens? So I guess I'm,
in a way, I'm kind of fascinatedby it. Maybe it's my way of
dealing with grief. And you knowhow I would handle stuff. So,
yeah, that is a common theme inall my books.
Maggie Lynch (28:45):
Well, and I think, again, in women's fiction, it is
often a common theme. It'sfunny, you know, talking about
someone trying to blurb yourbooks that way. I was in a
similar situation. I was writingthe third book in my women's
fiction series. And, and herfather is dying at the beginning
of the book. And I started itthat way. And about halfway
(29:12):
through the book, when I wasreally starting to deal with all
those emotions, my father died.
I couldn't write anything forsix months. But it's important.
It's important to do it becausenot only does it help you, but
like you said, it helps otherpeople because we're all gonna
die. And we're all gonna havepeople in our life who die. So
Erin, now that we're alldepressed, tell us about your
(29:33):
book.
Erin Bartels (29:37):
Oh, lots of people die. Especially my first book.
Lots of people die.
Lyn Liao Butler (29:42):
Yes. I read it.
I know.
Erin Bartels (29:46):
In the second book, there is a there's a death
but... Oh, no, somebody doesdie. Nevermind, I thought it was
just in the background, butthere's another one. And the
third one starts out with peopledealing with grief. And I
actually have had people ask meabout All That We Carried, if I
had had a parent die, or a closeperson in my life, and I, like
(30:09):
Lyn, have had a blessed life inthat way. The only people in my
life who have died, who arefamily, were very old at the
time and in poor health, and itwasn't surprising. But I am a
pastor's wife. And I deal withdeath a lot, and a lot of
different kinds of death. Andyou see, when you're on the
sidelines, you see how differentpeople in the same family react
(30:32):
very differently. And death caneither bring people together, or
it can bring up all these oldunresolved wounds and arguments
and rancor. And I think that Idrew on that experience of just
watching other people grieve.
And also, I think, because it'sa book that focuses on sisters,
and I have a close in age,sister, I also drew on all of
(30:54):
that sort of angst that you havewhen you have a sister and you
don't get along for a reallylong time. We get along great
now, but I mean, I pulled fromall of that, to think of how
would we have been if this hadhappened to us. And I could see
us going in these directions.
And and so that's , yeah, Ithink that you're right. That's
(31:18):
a part of our everyday lives.
And we, everybody, has to dealwith it at some point. And I
think that's probably why it's acommon theme. And it also sets
up characters who are maybe morevulnerable or raw than they
would have been otherwise. Andit's just a, it's a good way to
set up conflict or set upsomebody's backstory that they
(31:40):
they dealt with or didn't dealwith a death very well.
Maggie Lynch (31:47):
Yeah, really good point. And after all, women's
fiction is about the emotionaljourney. What's more emotional
than having someone die? Yeah.
Well, let's kind of get to anicer topic, I hope. I'd like to
know from each of you, you know,what's coming up next for you in
terms of other books that maybeyou have sitting there with a
(32:10):
publisher or just in the back ofyour head. What you're tackling
next? You know, and what arethey about?
Lyn Liao Butler (32:25):
Sure, so I, I actually finished a third book.
It was supposed to be women'sfiction, I had set in Hawaii.
And we actually went thereduring the pandemic, and lived
there for two months so I couldresearch the book. I was
supposed to go there last year.
But you know, everythinghappened. And then this winter,
I was like, I really need to gothere and do some research. They
were being so strict about whothey let in because there's
(32:49):
almost no cases on the island.
So we just decided to stay. Andthat book is finished. But then
when I came home, I was nothappy with it. I was like
something is off about thisbook. I don't love it the way I
love my first two books. And soin the meantime, I wrote a YA
book, a complete change. It's arom com. And my agent,
(33:11):
thankfully, also reps YA. So shewas really enthusiastic about
this book. She loved it. And soI wrote it. And then I went back
to this book, and I was like, Idon't like this book. There's
something wrong with it.
And I just recently had twowriter friends who write
thriller and thriller andsuspense look at it. And they're
like, this is not women'sfiction. This is a thriller, a
(33:32):
domestic suspense. And I waslike, that's what's wrong with
this. People keep dying. Andlike, you know, there's dark
stuff. And like, I kept tryingto make a women's fiction by
trying to focus on the emotionaljourney and whatever. But it was
creepy, and it was stalking andthere was this, you know, all
this stuff that was not women'sfiction. And I came up and I
wrote, rewrote the first fivechapters, I came up, redid the
(33:55):
synopsis over the holidayweekend, and I sent it to my
agent. I know this is a crazyidea, but just keep an open
mind. I really think this isthriller and domestic suspense.
And at first it's like you can'twrite another genre you're just
starting out. Your books haven'teven be published yet. You know
(34:15):
your audience wants you aswomen's fiction writer. And now
you just wrote a YA. And nowsuddenly you want to write
domestic. People are going to beconfused you know. We can't go
on sub to three differentpublishing houses. You can't be
with three different publishinghouses so early in your career.
She's like, how about a penname? I'm like I really don't
want to write under a pen name.
So anyways, she looked at it andshe was like, you know, she read
(34:37):
it. She's like, you're right.
This is so much better as adomestic suspense. So now we are
at...I can't talk about itbecause, obviously, things are
happening. But she liked it asdomestic suspense. So that book
has now become a suspense story.
And I actually, over theweekend, wrote three chapters
and a synopsis for my thirdwomen's fiction, which she
(35:01):
really liked as women's fiction.
So I've got my hand in a coupledifferent genres right now.
Because my agent says I writefaster than traditional
publishing works. So it'sdoable, but we have to be smart
about how we juggle this.
Maggie Lynch (35:18):
Good for you. And I think, I mean, I think agents
are starting to learn that whatworked for them 10 years ago,
you know, is really not the casetoday. And a lot of independent
publishers, you know, do writein multiple genres, and some of
them do really well at it, andsome of them don't. But I'm
(35:40):
really glad to hear that sheobviously loves your writing.
Lyn Liao Butler (35:43):
Yeah, and she, and I'm really thankful, because
Lyn, no, no, stop. And she just,she was just like, completely
100% behind me. I was also luckythat she reps all three of these
genres so that she could guideme and tell me, yes, this is
domestic suspense. And so I loveher. I'm so happy to have her on
my side.
Maggie Lynch (36:06):
So what are you working on next, Erin?
Erin Bartels (36:09):
Well, I guess, later this month, I'm getting
edits back on my fourth book,which is called The Girl Who
Could Breathe Underwater. Andthat is a story that is really
personal to me. It's definitelythe most personal thing I've
written. It involves a womanwho, who based her first...now
(36:30):
this is not the personal part.
She based her first book onsomething that really happened
in her life. And she did notfictionalize it enough. And she
has been criticized about howshe portrayed the antagonist.
And so she's kind of returningto this, this lake that she
spent all of her summers on as akid. Her grandfather has died,
(36:50):
and she has the cabin now. Andshe's going to go back there.
And she's going to confront thisperson, who's the brother of her
best friend, who she hasn't seenin a long time. They kind of
drifted apart. And so it's thestory of her figuring out if she
told the truth in her story, andrealizing that things are a lot
more complex than she thought.
(37:14):
But there's also, the aspect ofit that's based more personally
on me. It is the experience thatshe had with the antagonist. So
the thing that she wrote aboutin ther first book. So I'm
really excited about it. I thinkit's going to be, I think it's
the best thing I've everwritten. I don't know how it
(37:34):
will land with people. It's alittle darker. It's not domestic
thriller, but you know, not thatthe things that I've written
before were fluffy, I think theyall kind of deal with kind of
difficult issues.
But, um, the book that I'mwriting right now is, is
actually really fun. I'm writinga book that I've set in 1990. So
(37:58):
it's been really fun to be in1990. and just sort of remember
a simpler time, and not havecell phones involved in the plot
or anything. And it's aboutmusicians, and the main
character is actually a guy inhis early 20s. And the main
secondary character is a womanin her early 20s. And what's so
(38:22):
fun about it is that I grew upwith an audiophile Father. So a
guy who spent a lot of time andmoney on high end stereos. He
doesn't play an instrument. Hecan't sing. He can't even keep a
beat. But he, I mean, I grew upwith amazing sound in our house.
Every room had speakers. Musicwas a really huge part of
(38:42):
growing up for me. So it's beenreally fun to just be steeped in
that world. And just talk aboutsomething that I absolutely love
that I didn't even realize Iwanted to talk about so much.
And once I got started doing it,and the other really fun part
about it is that I'm writingsongs to go along with it. And,
you know, I've never done thatbefore. I've written poetry, but
(39:04):
I'm actually, you know, writingmelodies and playing guitar and
all that stuff. It was really,really fun. And I'm going to be
you know, we're going to begetting some people together to
actually record songs. So it'llbe part of the launch. We'll
have some live music, you know,we'll give away CDs,
Maggie Lynch (39:22):
Very Cool. Yeah.
Erin Bartels (39:25):
I'm having a lot of fun with it. After writing
some kind of harder stuff. Thisis a lot more fun. But it's
interesting that you talk about,Lyn, what your agent or your
(laughter from everyone)editor is expecting because I
had to pitch this book to myeditor. And one of the questions
for the editorial board was,well, why this book now? And I
think it was they were a littleconcerned that the protagonist
(39:45):
was younger, that he was a guy,you know, is this is this too
happy of a book? And I'm like,Oh, no, no, no, believe me.
The issues that I feel like itdeals with are, are the reason I
Maggie Lynch (40:21):
Yes.
Erin Bartels (40:21):
Or you can. And I don't want to write the same
book. Right? Every time I write,I want to write lots of
wanted to publish it now.
Because it deals a lot withdifferent types of books. And it
never even occurred to me towhose opinion of you matters.
And I think once you get a fewwrite domestic thriller, but
maybe I should. Okay, but youbooks in, and people have
certain expectations for whatshould.
you're going to write next, youfeel boxed in by that.
Lyn Liao Butler (40:35):
Especially since it sounds like you're just
like me, somebody dies and allyour books. We didn't
intentionally do it, but ithappens.
Erin Bartels (40:43):
I'm having a lot of fun with it.
Maggie Lynch (40:47):
Sounds really great. And I love books about
music. My series is about musicas well, an all women band. So,
because my husband's a musician,I got to kibitz a lot. And we
did write some music for thebooks together. But we weren't
as organized as you, you know.
You put them all out in advance.
(41:10):
They're, they're coming outbehind the book.
Erin Bartels (41:13):
Yeah, I shared a few of them on Instagram, like,
as I'm kind of working on them.
But I think the fun thing, whatI'd like to do and what I'm
going to be talking to mypublisher about at a meeting
next month is like (41:21):
Okay, how can we make it so that when you
have the audiobook, you have theactual songs happen when they
happen in the book?
Lyn Liao Butler (41:31):
I like that.
Erin Bartels (41:33):
I know.
Maggie Lynch (41:35):
Absolutely. You can.
Erin Bartels (41:37):
I want to kind of think outside the box on that.
Maggie Lynch (41:39):
Yeah. Great. I think it's a great idea. Or the
other possibility is do it as aspecial edition like a NFT.
Erin Bartels (41:48):
Yeah.
Maggie Lynch (41:49):
And charge, beaucoup bucks.
(laughter)All righty. Well, thank you very
much. It's been absolutelywonderful talking to both of
you. And thank you for listeningto dust jackets, conversation
with authors. Don't forget tocheck the show notes for
everything happening on women'sfiction day, and a lot more
(42:10):
information about how to connectwith these two wonderful women.
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